Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past

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Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past

28 Jun 99 - 11:46 AM (#90378)
Subject: Curragh of Kildare
From: Rich Kelly

Hi,

Anyone know the origins of this song? Is it old or a fairly recent addition, like The Fields of Athenry?

Rich

28 Jun 99 - 01:35 PM (#90410)
Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From:

See "Winter it is passed" in the Scots Tune Index at www.erols.com/olsonw for early copies of text and tune.

https://mudcat.org/olson/viewpage.cfm?theurl=SCOTTUNS.html

Winter it is past, The [SMM #200. Song: Ebsworth printed an eighteenth century copy entitled "The Lovesick Maid" in Roxburghe Ballads, VI, p. 240, and noted another copy in The London Rake's Garland (NLS, Lauriston Castle Collection). Two other eighteen century copies have been more recently printed by Hollowell and Black in Later English Broadside Ballads, (I) p. 127, as "The Irish Lovers," and p. 152, "The Lamenting maid." Glen, ESM p. 125, discusses Oswald's tune and Irish claims.]; CPC10 9:

29 Jun 99 - 10:00 AM (#90690)
Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Alan of Australia

G'day,
"Folksongs & Ballads popular in Ireland" says: "Taken down at different times by collectors like Petrie and Joyce, this song has been published with a set of lyrics known in Scotland and one of Irish origin, different airs were in use with this 18th cent. song".

I've always been puzzled by the line "He/she lives in the Curragh of Kildare".

(Dictionary definition: currach, Scot, Irish a coracle. Also curragh)

Why live in a boat?

More likely it refers to the racecourse of that name, but why live there??

How would an inland racecourse get a name like that???

Does "curragh" mean something else in this case, if so what????

Cheers,
Alan

29 Jun 99 - 02:29 PM (#90748)
Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Alice

To Rich and Alan, here is a quote from a website called "The Curragh of Kildare".
-----
The Curragh of Kildare

Dr. A.P. Smyth wrote about Celtic Ireland "The ancient Irish knew good land as well s any modern farmer, and the Curragh of Kildare and the Plains of Meath formed the heartland of Irish civilisation".

The Curragh is situated in the heart of Kildare and is a Plain of five thousand acres. The plain is elliptical, twenty-two square miles in area and is a sheep common. The Curragh has a variety of amenities for the tourist, picnic areas, sporting amenities, a number of pitch an putt courses and two 18 hole golf courses, the country's premier flat racing track, which hosts the ever popular Budwiser Irish Derby, there is also lots of easy walking.

On the Curragh there is a population of thirteen hundred horses, this area is the home of Irish breeding and training. The National stud is located on the edge of Kildare town beside the famous Japanese Gardens both are open to the public and are well worth a visit.

Pollardstown Fen:

At the border of the Curragh on the Newbridge side of the Curragh is the Curragh racecourse at the back of the racecourse and off the plains is Pollardstown Fen. Pollardstown Fen is the largest fen in Ireland.. The fen which is a tract of Marshy land, this area is of particular interest to botanists and ecologists because of the numerous bird species that nest and visit the here also many rare plants and fen that grow here. A "Hide" has been built in the fen for those interested in viewing the wild life. There is 36 known springs serving the area, including Father Moore's Well and "Seven Springs" many come from deep beneath the Curragh plains sandy soils.

Here is a link to the page I quoted.http://www.rtc-carlow.ie/Kildare/misc/curragh.html

29 Jun 99 - 05:25 PM (#90792)
Subject: Tune Add: THE WINTER IT IS PAST
From:

There's little difference between the earliest Scots and Irish copies of the tune (1st two below). G. Petrie in 'The Ancient Music of Ireland' said that he had noted the tune from a Betty Skillin (about 1805), but P. W. Joyce in 'Old Irish Folk Music and Songs', #427, said that Petrie's tune is one he (Joyce) had noted in 1852, and had sent to Petrie. It doesn't appear that Joyce was correct in this. The copy in Stanford-Petrie, #439, has no note as to its source, is in 2/4 rather than common time, and lacks the repeat for the chorus (given in full by Joyce, 1908, and Petrie, 1855). Both Petrie copies (with minor differences in timing between them) are in F mixolydian, and Joyce's is C lydian.

More variant is the copy of the tune in 'The Scots Musical Museum', #200, which is rather poorly engraved so I don't guarantee the accuracy of the ABC below. I suspect that this version is what was called the 'different' Scots tune.

There are two broadside ballad versions of the text in Holloway and Black's 'Later English Broadside Ballads', I, #54, "The Irish Lovers" and #66, "The Lamenting Maid". "The Love-Sick Maid" version in 'Roxburghe Ballads', VI, p. 240, is from a garland of 1765.

The 1st verse is also found in the Scots song "Mally Stuart", given from a broadside copy by D. Laing in 'Additional Illustrations to the Scots Musical Museum', #497. A traditional version of this is in 'The Greig-Duncan Folks Song Collection', I, #97.

X:1
T:THE WINTER IT IS PAST
S:Oswald's 'Caledonian Pocket Companion', bk 10, c 1759-60
Q:120
L:1/8
M:2/4
K:G
G/A/|BABd|G2gf|dBAB|G2AB|cdef|{e/f/}g2 f3/2e/|d3::\
c/B/|cdef|{e/f/}g2fe|dBAG|A2GA|B2Be|dcBA|G3:|]

X:3
T:The Winter it is Past
S:The Scots Musical Museum, #200, 1788
Q:120
L:1/8
M:2/4
K:C
F3/2G/|A3/2 G/ A c|F2f d |c A G F|G2 G A| C D E|\
(fe) (d^c)|d4{BAG}|Fe c3/2B/|A c d e|f3 e/d/|c A G F|\
G2 F3/2G/|A2 A3/2 d/|(cB A G|F4{DCD}|C2|]

29 Jun 99 - 10:36 PM (#90885)
Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Alice

thanks, Bruce

30 Jun 99 - 01:50 AM (#90940)
Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Alan of Australia

G'day,
Thanks Alice & Bruce (wearing shades).

Cheers,
Alan

02 May 00 - 11:31 AM (#221482)
Subject: Help: Curragh of Kildare
From: Margaret V

Does anyone have any information on "The Curragh of Kildare?" I have only heard it recorded by Cliff Haslam (beautiful! Version is in the DT), but recall hearing a poem with very similar words at a Burns Supper. Thanks. Margaret

02 May 00 - 05:21 PM (#221665)
Subject: RE: Help: Curragh of Kildare
From: GUEST,Phil Cooper

What you heard at a Burns supper was Robert Burns re-working of the song. I believe he titled it the "Winter it is Past." That version was recorded by Jean Redpath on Vol. 2 of her series of Burns arrangements with composer Serge Hovey (I think) that was on Philo. Archie Fisher recorded a version with Garnet Rogers on the one album they did together a few years back. It has a nice tune that way. Though I like the other version as well. Bert Jansch did one on "A Rare Conundrum." Hope this helps. Phil

02 May 00 - 06:01 PM (#221697)
Subject: RE: Help: Curragh of Kildare
From: GUEST,Bruce O.

Burns' title, "The Winter It Is Past" (Scots Musical Museum, #200, 1788) is that of the tune, which is in Oswald's 'Caledonian Pocket Companion', bk. 10 (c 1759).

02 May 00 - 06:59 PM (#221734)
Subject: RE: Help: Curragh of Kildare
From: Margaret V

Thank you very much, everyone! I had searched the forum for "Curragh of Kildare" and came up empty. Per advice from Guest, I searched using just "Curragh" and found the previous (informative) threads. I'll keep my eyes and ears open for some of the other recordings you mentioned, Phil. Margaret

27 Apr 10 - 04:31 AM (#2895108)
Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: GUEST

Curragh is different to currach, it originally means 'place of the running horse'

27 Apr 10 - 04:39 AM (#2895113)
Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Dave MacKenzie

I believe Christie Moore took the version from Johnson's Musical Museum, believing it was written by Burns, and added the Irish chorus.

27 Apr 10 - 04:51 AM (#2895117)
Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)

The Curragh is also home to the Curragh Camp, the chief base of the Irish Army. It's been an army camp since well before Irish independence and was the site of the Curragh mutiny, when officers in the British army based in Ireland threatened to resign their commissions rather than enforce the Home Rule Bill then before the British parliament. This is an almost-forgotten episode in British military history - the closest thing in modern British history to a military coup. The mutiny was a huge boost to Edward Carson's Ulster Volunteer Force and a spur to the formation of the Irish Volunteers and James Connoly's Irish Citizen Army.

My reading of the song has always been that it refers to the army camp rather than anything to do with racehorses - or sheep.

27 Apr 10 - 07:51 AM (#2895188)
Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Dave Hanson

If you go down to the Curragh Camp,
Call in at number nine,
You'll see three squaddies standing there,
Ah the good looking one is mine,
He was a quaire one fol the dig a di do,
He was a quaire one and I'll tell you.

Dave H

27 Apr 10 - 10:24 AM (#2895254)
Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: GUEST,Albert O'Einstein

Why is it that The Scotch & English always try to claim ownership of Irish music and Song? The only reason so much of this stuff exists in Scotland is because it was BROUGHT there by the constant migration of Celtic peoples to Scotland from the land of Saints & Scholars over the centuries.

27 Apr 10 - 10:35 AM (#2895261)
Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Dave MacKenzie

Christie Moore's the one who claims it as a Scottish song.

At any rate the traffic was two way, hence the naming of a type of tune as "highland" in Donegal. There's lots of Irish music that is genuinely Irish, lots of Scots music that originated in Ireland, England or even Italy, the same with English music, and one of the fascinations of traditional arts is trying to follow how various strands have moved between countries and even continents.

27 Apr 10 - 11:46 AM (#2895293)
Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Leadfingers

There were snakes and there was hair
In the Curry of Kildare

27 Apr 10 - 11:50 AM (#2895296)
Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Newport Boy

Not after St Patrick, Leadfingers. He took the snakes out of the curry for evermore.

Phil

27 Apr 10 - 04:11 PM (#2895459)
Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Steve Gardham

Alberto,
Perhaps you'd like to name one Irish song that the English or Scotch have claimed as theirs.

The song under discussion here is clearly set in Ireland and in the earliest extant version, as mentioned by Bruce above, the lover is most definitely a jockey, nothing to do with soldiers. However it was widely printed in England and as already been said the version being currently sung is based on a version printed in Scotland.

There are many songs common to England, Ireland and Scotland. In most cases it is impossible to determine in which of the countries a song originated. As someone has already mentioned these sort of songs passed freely back and forth between the countries with a common language and that includes North America. Many of the songs nowadays taken to be Irish are in fact by American authors writing FOR the Irish in America.

27 Apr 10 - 07:11 PM (#2895548)
Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Leadfingers

For example , Forty Shades of Green - A traditional Irish song written by Johnny Cash

27 Apr 10 - 08:15 PM (#2895578)
Subject: ADD: The Winter It Is Past (Robert Burns)
From: Tattie Bogle

Well I'm very surprised that no-one has mentioned Robert Burns in all this! I learned the McPaekae's version of "The Curragh of Kildare" about 45 years ago - then came to scotland 23 years ago, to find them singing this: Here is Burns' version:

Burns Original

THE WINTER IT IS PAST
(Robert Burns)

1.
The winter it is past, and the simmer comes at last,
And the small birds sing on ev'ry tree:
The hearts of these are glad, but mine is very sad,
For my love is parted from me.
2.
The rose upon the brier by the waters running clear
May have charms for the linnet or the bee:
Their little loves are blest, and their little hearts at rest,
But my lover is parted from me
3.
My love is like the sun in the firmament does run -
Forever is constant and true;
But his is like the moon, that wanders up and down,
And every month it is new.
4.
All you that are in love, and cannot it remove,
I pity the pains you endure,
For experience makes me know that your hearts are
full of woe,
A woe that no mortal can cure.

More than passing resemblance, methinks, at least in some of the verses!So which came first??

Note from Joe Offer: most of the Burns Websites show only the first two verses (e.g., http://www.robertburns.org/works/218.shtml)

But the sung collections usually have the four verses posted above (with slight variations). So, did Burns write four verses, or two? Here's Jean Redpath: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zPQahXTLss

Here's the Billy Ross recording from Volume 1 of the wonderful Linn Records Burns: The Complete Songs Collection: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2MTFPKVxao

Note that both Redpath and Ross sing lyrics that are slightly different from what Tattie Bogle posted.

28 Apr 10 - 03:44 AM (#2895738)
Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Dave MacKenzie

"Well I'm very surprised that no-one has mentioned Robert Burns in all this!"

I did. And so did Christie Moore in the notes in his song book.

28 Apr 10 - 05:10 AM (#2895777)
Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Jim McLean

Burns did not write The Winter it is Past according to William Stenhouse who wrote the Illustrations of the Lyric Poetry and Music of Scotland which prefaced the 1853 edition of Johnson's Scots Musical Museum. Stenhouse says "The Editor has not yet been so fortunate as to discover who was the author of this plaintive pastoral song; but there are several variations between the copy inserted in the Museum and the following stall edition of the ballad."

A 'stall' edition is a sheet sold at fairs etcetera and Stenhouse's version show variations:

Verse one: ...the little birds now sing on ev'ry tree...

Verse three: ....My love is like the sun that unwearied doth run, Through the firmament, ay constant and true ... And is ev'ry month changing anew.

Verse four: ....How I pity the pains that you endure.

In addition Stenhouse writes "The plaintive little air to which this song is adapted, is inserted under the same title in Oswald's Caledonian Pocket Companion, book 7th."

James C Dick, the noted authority on Burns say: " ...Cromek printed the first two stanzas in the Reliques, 1808. Burns wrote only the second stanza and corrected the first: the rest were printed before his time as a stall-ballad. The song of seven stanzas is in the Herd MS. Dr Petrie has copied it into the Ancient Music of Ireland...... The original song (imperfectly authenticated) belongs to the middle of the eighteenth century, and was written by a highwayman called Johnson who was hung in 1750 for robberies committed in the Currach of Kildare."

I have various other books, 18th and 19th century, where the author is stated as unknown.

28 Apr 10 - 07:39 AM (#2895839)
Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Jim McLean

These are the verses in Cromek's Reliques of Robert Burns, page 446 and titled FRAGMENT (see my post above)

The winter it is past, and the simmer comes at last,
And the small birds sing on every tree;
Now every thing is glad whie I am very sad,
Since my true love is parted from me.

The rose upon the brier by the waters running clear
May have charms for the linnet or the bee:
Their little loves are blest, and their little hearts at rest,
But my true love is parted from me.

28 Apr 10 - 07:45 AM (#2895843)
Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Fiolar

Curragh actually means "a low lying plain" or "a marsh".

28 Apr 10 - 07:01 PM (#2896273)
Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: RobbieWilson

I am sure I have read somewhere, I think perhaps in the museum at alloway, that burns said he learned this song from his kitchen maid

28 Apr 10 - 08:32 PM (#2896328)
Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Tattie Bogle

Sorry Dave, missed your mention of Burns, even tho' I did read the other posts before submitting mine. Apologies.
Thanks for the info Jim: I hope to visit some of the "Burns Trail" sites in Ayrshire on my way to Girvan Festival this weekend.
Steve G: Scotch is whisky, not people!

28 Apr 10 - 11:14 PM (#2896395)
Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: mg

Where is the verse about the green velvet? Oh here it is.

A livery I will wear and I'll tie back my hair
and in velvet of green I will appear
And straight I will repair to the Curragh of Kildaire
ANd it's there I'll find tidings of my ?? I always heard Will. mg

28 Apr 10 - 11:38 PM (#2896412)
Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: MGM·Lion

Tattie Bogle - as to 'Scotch' being whisky, not people: that, I would suggest, is merely a late-Victorian genteelism, probably of temperance origin. Any of the great Scotch-Scots-Scottish writers prior to that [check out Burns, Scott, Stevenson et al] would quite uninhibitedly have indifferently used 'Scots', 'Scottish'', or 'Scotch' as their chosen adjective for the people, the language, or whatever. I would adumbrate Stevenson's description of Lord Justice Braxfield, in his essay on Raeburn's Portraits in 'Virginibus Puerisque' [Braxfield being generally regarded as the origin of RLS's 'Weir Of Hermiston'], as "the last judge on the Scotch bench to employ the pure Scotch idiom".

~Michael~

29 Apr 10 - 12:09 AM (#2896420)
Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: MGM·Lion

Tattie Bogle & all others interested ~~ please note that I have started a new thread BS on this vexed question as to whether 'Scotch' can properly be used for anything other than the usquebaugh, which has long been a bête-noire of mine. Please contribute if you have any feelings on the matter either way.

~Michael~

29 Apr 10 - 04:55 AM (#2896492)
Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Jim McLean

MtheGM this topic has been hammered to death over the years. The answer is very simple: Scot is a noun, Scotch can be a noun or an adjective. Scotch was used extensively in the 19th century as an adjective to describe people but fell out of favour due to a narrow minded attitude that it compared people to whisky.

29 Apr 10 - 05:06 AM (#2896498)
Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Newport Boy

That's scotched that discussion, Jim!

Phil

24 Mar 20 - 04:46 AM (#4041730)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Curragh of Kildare
From: GUEST,kenny

Fureys https://youtu.be/1vP69fg1CCA

24 Mar 20 - 08:50 AM (#4041779)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Curragh of Kildare
From: GUEST,Starship

https://books.google.ca/books?id=ji1YAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA88&lpg=PA88&dq=The+winter+has+passed+And+the+summer%27s+come+at+last+The+smal

Lower half of p.88 in Lloyd`s Song Book (1846). There are earlier versions and it is variously attributed to the Scots and the Irish. (I found the book mentioned with a Google of the first four lines of the first stanza. FYI.)

24 Mar 20 - 12:29 PM (#4041831)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Curragh of Kildare
From: GUEST,RA

Heard Cathal McConnell (Boys of the Lough) sing a beautiful version of this.

24 Mar 20 - 02:32 PM (#4041855)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Curragh of Kildare
From: Steve Gardham

Widely printed on broadsides. Do you want me to check for the earliest, Joe?

24 Mar 20 - 03:06 PM (#4041863)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Curragh of Kildare
From: RTim

I recorded this version way back in the 1970's.....Originally from Purslow's book Foggy Dew and then republished in Southern Harvest - page 245.

Tim Radford

THE WINTERS GONE & PAST
(Dorset - Jo. Vincent - Wareham & Mr. Russell - Upway)
Roud 583

(RTim's Version)
The winter's gone and past,
and the summer's come at last,
And the small birds are on every tree,
And many a heart is glad, but my poor heart is sad,
Since my true love has been absent from me.

I should not think it strange,
the wide world for to range
In hoping for to find my heart’s delight
But now in Cupid’s chains I’m obliged to remain
And in sorrow I must spend my whole life.

I will dress myself in black,
With a fringe all around my neck,
Gold rings all on my fingers I will wear,
Then straightway I’ll repair to the county of Kildare,
And some tidings I may hear of my dear.

My love is like the sun in the pleasant month of June
That do always prove constant and true
But hers is like the moon that do wender up & down
And in every month it is new.

(Version from Southern Harvest)
The winter’s gone and past,
Pleasant summer’s come at last,
And the small birds sing on every green tree;
There is many a heart is glad,
Oh, but my poor heart is sad,
Since my true love has gone absent from me.

I should not think it strange,
The wide world for to range,
In hoping for to find my heart’s delight;
But now in Cupid’s chains,
I’m oblig’d for to remain,
And in sorrow I must spend my whole life.

I will dress myself in black,
With a fringe all round my neck,
Gold rings all on my fingers I will wear;
Then straightway I’ll repair,
To the county of Kildare,
And some tidings I may have of my dear.

My love is like the sun,
In the pleasant month of June,
That do always prove constant and true;
But his is like the moon,
That do wender up and down,
And in every month it is new.

28 Mar 21 - 07:43 PM (#4099714)
Subject: ADD Version: Curragh of Kildare (Christy Moore)
From: Joe Offer

CURRAGH OF KILDARE
(traditional, from the Christy Moore recording)

The winter it is past
And the summer's come at last
And the birds they are singing in the trees
Their little hearts are glad
But mine is very sad
For my true love is far away from me

The rose upon the briar
By the water running clear
Gives joy to the linnet and the bee
Their little hearts are blessed
But mine is not at rest (???)
For my true love is absent from me

CHORUS:
And it's straight I will repair
To the Curragh of Kildare
For it's there I'll find tidings of my dear

All you that are in love
And cannot it remove
I pity the pains that you endure
For experience lets me know
That your hearts are full of woe
And a woe that no mortal can cure
CHORUS (twice)

My transcription of the Christy Moore recording is based on an internet lyrics post that gives this attribution: Songwriters: Christy Moore / Dominic Behan / Harold Shampan
Christy Moore [somehow, I don't believe the songwriter attribution, but maybe the chorus comes from Christy Moore?].

Recording by The Johnstons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTphmT2w87E

Christy Moore Recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSUwjmaqy4c

Wikipedia Entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Curragh_of_Kildare

31 Mar 21 - 11:36 AM (#4100118)
Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: GUEST,#

There is a beautiful rendition of this piece at

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGcq_hzRYyM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGcq_hzRYyM

31 Mar 21 - 02:06 PM (#4100137)
Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: Felipa

Joe, doesn't the Johnston's recording predate the Christy Moore recording? They sang the chorus and they sang the same tune. And they didn't compose this song either. Why repeat wrong information? Dave McKenzie wrote in this discussion that Christy Moore mentioned Burns and Scottish connections in his songbook. I think whatever adaptations 1c Moore, D Behan and H. Shaman made were small (we can see from examples given in this discussion thread that many people, including Robbie Burns, have made little changes in the song over the years).

"I'll finds tidings" should read "I'll find tidings".

The Johnstons recorded Curragh of Kildare in 1967. The Emmet Spriceland recording https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kk-Fx7vS4Xk was released in 1968.
On his own website, Christy Moore's attribution is "Trad/arr. Christy Moore", and he notes
"I gleaned this song from The P.W. Joyce collection in 1964.Donal Lunny and I arranged this song into its present shape.The original was written by Scotlands poet laureate Robbie Burns.It tells the story of a young Scottish woman whose lover is away soldiering for the Queen in the Curragh of Kildare.She decides to present herself for recruitment disguised as a young fellow.We never get to hear the outcome.Certainly a good case for a sequel."
https://www.christymoore.com/lyrics/curragh-of-kildare/

Another version of the "a livery I'll wear" or "I'll dress myself in black"[or green] verse is

A livery I shall wear,
And I'll comb back my hair,
I'll dress in velvet so green;
All this I'll undertake,
For my true lover's sake,
He resides in the Curragh of Kildare

Wrong Information, Felipa? Is only the earliest version "correct"? That being said, it's a sloppy transcription that I found somewhere one the Internet, but it will save me time when I transcribe from the Christy Moore and/or the Johnstons recording . I haven't formatted the song to the Digital Tradition format yet because it is a work in progress. I will finish it when I get to it, and then I will complete the formatting. I added a caveat at the very top that I question the transcript. So, give me time.
-Joe-

31 Mar 21 - 02:09 PM (#4100138)
Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: Felipa

Colin Randall summarised the topic very recently, Feb 2021, and he event mentions Mudcat in his blog
https://www.salutlive.com/2021/02/cover-story-58-the-curragh-of-kildare-the-johnstons-christy-moore-or-bert-jansch.html

31 Mar 21 - 05:13 PM (#4100177)
Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: Steve Gardham

Burns might well have had a fiddle with it later on as he did with most things but the earliest version I have, not necessarily THE earliest version, is dated 1765 when Burns was 6 years old.

31 Mar 21 - 06:13 PM (#4100194)
Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: Steve Gardham

In the earliest versions there are 9 stanzas, and in this and the sequel 'Molly's Lamentation' there are no implications that he is a soldier. The main implication is that her father has sent him overseas as a jockey to race on the Curragh, but when she gets to the Curragh he's already been sent elsewhere to race.

01 Apr 21 - 06:00 AM (#4100234)
Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: GerryM

I don't think anyone here has quoted at length what Christy Moore says about the song in his book, One Voice – My Life In Song:

01 Apr 21 - 08:06 AM (#4100251)
Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: Georgiansilver

The Curragh (Irish: An Currach, is a flat open plain of almost 2,000 hectares (5,000 acres) of common land in Newbridge, County Kildare. This area is well known for Irish horse breeding and training. The Irish National Stud is located on the edge of Kildare town, beside the famous Japanese Gardens. Also located here is Pollardstown Fen, the largest fen in Ireland. This area is of particular interest to botanists and ecologists because of the numerous bird species that nest and visit there. There are also many rare plants that grow there.

01 Apr 21 - 09:40 AM (#4100263)
Subject: ADD: The Love-sick Maid
From: Steve Gardham

Here is the alleged earliest copy on a slip. See the image from the Roxburghe Collection available at University College Santa Barbara EBBA ref 31429. The 1765 date is given by Ebsworth in the published collection of Roxburghe Ballads Vol 6, p240. Looking at the typography and language, I'd say it could be even earlier. It has 8 stanzas. I have later versions from the late 18th century with 9 stanzas and I'd guess none of these are the original.

The Love-sick Maid.

The Winter it is past,
And the Summer come at last;
And the small Birds sings on every Tree,
The Hearts of those is glad,
Whilst mine is very sad;
Whilst my true Love is absent from me.

I'll put on my Cap of black,
And Fringes about my Neck,
And Rings to my Fingers I'll wear;
All this I'll undertake,
For (my) true Lovers sake,
For he rides at the Curragh of Kildare.

A Livery I'll wear,
And I'll comb down my Hair,
And I'll dress in the Velvet so green,
Straitaways I will repair,
To the Curragh of Kildare,
And 'tis there I will get Tydings of him.

With Patience she did wait,
'Till they ran for the Plate,
In thinking young Johnstone to see;
But Fortune prov'd unkind,
To that Sweetheart of mine,
For he's gone to Lurgan from me.

I should not think it strange,
The wide world for to range,
If I could obtain my heart's delight.
But here in Cupid's Chains,
I'm oblig'd to remain,
Whilst in tears do spend the whole Night.

My Love is like the Sun,
That in the Firmament doth run,
Which is always constant and true.
But yours is like the Moon,
That doth wander up and down,
And in every Month it's new.

All you that are in Love,
And can or(not) it remove,
For you pittied are by me;
Experience makes me know,
That your Heart is full of woe,
Since my true Love is absent from me.

Farewel my Joy and Heart,
Since you and I must part.
You are the fairest that e'er I did see;
And I never do design,
For to alter my Mind,
Altho' you're below my Degree.

The name 'Johnston' is Scots, but there must have been plenty of Johnstons came over to Ireland. The whole style of the piece is that of the London Pleasure Gardens like Vauxhall and Ranelagh and could easily have been composed for a ballad opera there.

01 Apr 21 - 03:58 PM (#4100297)
Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: Felipa

Joe Offer the "wrong information" I refer to is "Songwriters: Christy Moore / Dominic Behan / Harold Shampan". As Gerry M and I have pointed out, with quotations, even Christy Moore himself does not claim authorship, but says he found the song in a collection compiled by P.W. Joyce (1827-1914).
I'm trying to find this song in P.W. Joyce collections via https://www.itma.ie/joyce but have not located it yet.

01 Apr 21 - 04:20 PM (#4100299)
Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: Steve Gardham

To throw another into the pot, Eddie and Finbar Furey were certainly performing it around the English clubs by June 68.

01 Apr 21 - 04:29 PM (#4100300)
Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: Steve Gardham

Not in my copy of Joyce's 'Ancient Irish Music' 1872 edition.

01 Apr 21 - 04:32 PM (#4100301)
Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: Felipa

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/itma.dl.printmaterial/joyce_microsite/pdfs/oldirishpart2.pdf

if that link doesn't work for you try https://www.itma.ie/joyce/book/old-irish-folk-music-and-songs-part-2 and click on "view pdf"

The Winter it is Past is song #427 in "Old Irish Folk Music and Songs: The Joyce Collection Part II" (published 1909)
It was also published in Dr. George Petrie's "Ancient Music of Ireland".
Patrick Weston Joyce writes that he collected this version of The Curragh of Kildare from Kate Cudmore of Co. Limerick circa 1852.

Christy Moore has written that he found the song in the Joyce collection and that, as far as he recalls, he passed it on to Mick Maloney who was a member of The Johnstons group. So it looks like Joe Offer is probably right in surmising that Christy Moore - or one of "The Johnstons" - is responsible for adding a chorus to the song. Incidently, the next song, #428, in the Joyce Collection is "Arthur McBride".

01 Apr 21 - 04:36 PM (#4100302)
Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: GUEST,#

The song made its way to Newfoundland, too.

https://www.springthyme.co.uk/ah06/ah06_13.htm

I hope that doesn't duplicate anyone's post.

01 Apr 21 - 04:38 PM (#4100303)
Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: Felipa

Although I don't know who the Fureys got the song from, but the Johnstons recorded it in 1967. (Steve Gardham says the Fureys were performing it by 1968). It would be nice, though, to find out that there was some living link besides the song as collected in the mid 19th century being revived from a book.

01 Apr 21 - 04:57 PM (#4100308)
Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: Steve Gardham

Not sure what you mean by 'living link', Felipa, but there are plenty of versions from English and Scottish oral tradition but not since the early 20th century as far as I can see. I don't know of anyone who has recorded a version from oral tradition after WWII. Having been published in Burns books, Johnson's Musical Museum and Christie it's not surprising fragmentary versions turn up in Scotland.

Thanks for the links to Joyce's second volume, although if the same version is in Petrie I've got it.

Just spotted a version from a 1779 American manuscript, obviously from oral tradition. It's online in the Fanning Manuscript, American vernacular Music website.

The Fureys were big mates with the Moores when they weren't beating the living daylights out of each other.

01 Apr 21 - 05:01 PM (#4100310)
Subject: ADD Version:The Curragh of Kildare (Johnstons)
From: Joe Offer

CURRAGH OF KILDARE
(Traditional, from the Johnstons)

The winter it is past
And the summer's come at last
And the birds they are singing in the trees
Their little hearts are glad
But mine is very sad
For my true love is far away from me

CHORUS:
And straight I will repair
To the Curragh of Kildare
For it's there I'll find tidings of my dear

A livery I'll wear
And I'll comb back my hair
And in velvet so green I will appear
And straight I will repair
To the Curragh of Kildare
For it's there I'll find tidings of my dear

All you that are in love
And cannot it remove
I pity the pains that you endure
For experience lets me know
That your hearts are full of woe
A woe that no mortal can cure

Transcribed from this recording by The Johnstons (date unknown): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTphmT2w87E

01 Apr 21 - 05:19 PM (#4100312)
Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: Joe Offer

Felipa, the above post is now complete. It's a copy of the "incorrect" post above that you complained about. I'll now change that offending post into a corrected transcription of the Christy Moore recording. The recordings by Christy Moore and the Johnstons are certainly not original, but they are the most popular recent performances - and I almost always prefer songs with choruses because I love to sing with other people.
When a post of lyrics is complete to my satisfaction, I formalize the format and add particular markings to identify it as checked. If it's a post from me and the title is not in big, bold letters, it's not finished yet or it's a part of an ongoing process of discovery.
I suppose it's an unfair advantage that I can post something and then edit it, but I try to make good and honest use of that privilege. If you make a mistake, it's best to post the message a second time with corrections, far easier than asking me to correct one or another word. Just mark the second one so we'll know it's the corrected version, and we'll delete the previous message.
-Joe-

01 Apr 21 - 07:04 PM (#4100320)
Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: Tattie Bogle

I have it on a compilation LP called "Irish Folk hits" on the Marble Arch label, MAL 735, produced in 1967.
The Curragh of Kildare is indeed The Johnstons' recording and is listed Trad. arr Moloney and Johnston. This accords with Felipa's post above apart from the spelling of Moloney (Maloney)and gives you a date.
Unfortunately not much else in the way of sleeve notes, as was the fashion in those days!

01 Apr 21 - 08:46 PM (#4100338)
Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: GUEST,#

Petrie, pp.168-70 <----- they are book pages

https://archive.org/details/nd7365927/page/n199/mode/2up

https://archive.org/details/nd7365927/page/n199/mode/2up

02 Apr 21 - 12:44 PM (#4100420)
Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: leeneia

Here are words from the site robertburns.org which don't make reference to a curragh.

The winter it is past, and the summer comes at last,
And the small birds are singing in the trees
Now everything is glad, oh but I am very sad,
For my true love is parted from me.

The rose upon the briar by the water running clear
May have charms for the linnet and the bee
Their little loves are blest, ah their little hearts at rest,
But my true love is parted from me

And all you who are in love, and cannot it remove,
I pity all the pains that you endure,
For experience lets me know that your hearts are full of woe,
It's a woe that no mortal can cure.

My love is like the sun and the firmament does run
Forever is constant and true
But his is like the moon, it wanders up and doon,
And is every month changing anew.

The winter it is past, and the summer comes at last,
And the small birds are singing in the trees
Their little loves are blest, ah their little hearts at rest,
But my true love is parted away from me

My true love is far away from me.
Source: Musixmatch

09 Apr 21 - 06:30 PM (#4101600)
Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: GUEST,#

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shvzGmMTVfo

Oysterband - "Curragh of Kildare"

10 Apr 21 - 08:17 AM (#4101721)
Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: Steve Gardham

Only an opinion, but it appears that Rabbie has kept in the flowery lyrical bits and removed the settings and personal info.

10 Apr 21 - 10:50 AM (#4101753)
Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: leeneia

I agree, Steve. I wonder whether "the Curragh of Kildare", which I thought was a kind of boat, refers to a pub. Or perhaps its a ferry, likely to be a source of news and gossip in a rural area. In either case, it adds interest and poignance to the song.

Guest #, thanks for the link, where one can hear the melody.

10 Apr 21 - 11:29 AM (#4101765)
Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: GUEST,#

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Johnstons

That Wikipedia article gives a date of 1968 for the recording: this regarding the post at 01 Apr 21 - 05:01 PM

10 Apr 21 - 12:11 PM (#4101774)
Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: GUEST,#

The Curragh of Kildare is a place. Try imagining a curragh (small round boat meant for very calm waters, else it would swamp) making any sense in the lyrics and it doesn't work. If there's any sense to be made from it all, one must consider that the 'curragh' is a bowl-shaped depression in the earth somewhere out there is the isles. I agree with leeneia's implication: it's from two separate songs or poems, and lyrics that have TWIIP using the CoK refrain have conflated them. Anyway, that's my view fwiw.

10 Apr 21 - 12:47 PM (#4101779)
Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: Steve Gardham

The Curragh is a horse race on the Curragh and the hero is a jockey, riding for The Plate.

Please read the previous posts before conjecturing, particularly Georgiansilver's post on the 1st at 8.06 AM. it's not an April Fool gag!

10 Apr 21 - 01:19 PM (#4101782)
Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: GUEST,#

Great. Would you please post the lyrics?

10 Apr 21 - 03:33 PM (#4101794)
Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: Steve Gardham

Already posted. 1st April, 9.40 AM.

13 Apr 21 - 12:36 AM (#4102051)
Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: leeneia

"Please read the previous posts..."

Gee, how could I have failed to read 60 posts going back 21 years?

13 Apr 21 - 09:43 AM (#4102081)
Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: Steve Gardham

All the info you needed was posted 9 days prior to your conjecture.

21 Jan 24 - 04:10 PM (#4195895)
Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: Felipa

according to https://mainlynorfolk.info/folk/songs/thewinteritispast.html Burns based The Winter it is Past on a song called The Lovesick Maid. In that song the absent lover is a highwayman, an element which Burns left out. In that account of origins, the Curragh of Kildare would have derived from the Burns song which derived from a different traditional song.

22 Jan 24 - 05:37 PM (#4195968)
Subject: RE: Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past
From: Steve Gardham

'The Love-sick Maid text is given above and indeed predates Burns. There is no indication that he was a highwayman, and the description given in it implies that he was a jockey. You'd need to compare all of the versions to see which derive from the Burns adaptation. It's likely Scottish versions derive from Burns. As in many ballads, particularly Irish, the song is about the difference in the status of the jockey and the rich girl. It doesn't make it clear but perhaps the jockey is a Catholic and she is Protestant. John Moulden might have a better idea.