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17 Feb 09 - 06:19 AM (#2568992) Subject: Pronunciation--O Carolan From: bubblyrat Over the years, I have heard the first name of Toirdhealbhach O Cearbhallain , usually written as Turlough, pronounced as Tur- LOW, Tur-LUFF,and Tur-LOUGH (as in "Loch").What,in fact,is the correct way to say it for non Erse- speakers ?? |
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17 Feb 09 - 06:24 AM (#2568994) Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan From: MartinRyan Depends on which bit of the Erse-speaking world you're in! The most common/standard is roughly tur - luck with the stress on the first syllable and the second syllable more guttural than most English speakers would offer! Regards |
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17 Feb 09 - 06:38 AM (#2569004) Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan From: bubblyrat Thanks,Martin. Oddly enough,that is quite a Dutch way of saying it,with the emphasis on the first syllable,and the hardness of the second.I must practice !! |
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17 Feb 09 - 06:55 AM (#2569007) Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan From: MartinRyan If you speak Dutch, You'll have no problems with that final sound! Tot siens! |
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17 Feb 09 - 09:11 AM (#2569112) Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan From: bubblyrat Ja, Ik kan beetje Nederlands praaten en verstaan ! En ook "The Villan", George Papagevris,en zijn vrouw Vanessa ("Nessie") !!Dat is drie andere Mudkatteneers !! |
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17 Feb 09 - 09:16 AM (#2569117) Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan From: Ptarmigan Hey, if in doubt, you could always just refer to him as T C Giving my age away again! :-) |
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17 Feb 09 - 09:50 AM (#2569135) Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan From: Steve Shaw Next question. How do you pronounce "Erse?" :-) |
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17 Feb 09 - 09:56 AM (#2569140) Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan From: Zen Erse... not a preferred term these days. Zen |
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17 Feb 09 - 09:56 AM (#2569141) Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan From: Bryn Pugh Like "Arse", but with an "E". |
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17 Feb 09 - 11:39 AM (#2569207) Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan From: meself Now that you've got the pronunciation straightened out, if you really want to build up your Celtic cred, you will have to drop the "O" on O'Carolan. Big discussion about it on thesession.org awhile back, and that was the conclusion. |
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17 Feb 09 - 12:48 PM (#2569272) Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan From: MartinRyan Erse is archaic at this stage, alright. OED glosses it as an early Scots (sic) form of Irish. Regards |
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17 Feb 09 - 01:00 PM (#2569284) Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan From: MartinRyan Incidentally.... Now that you've got the pronunciation straightened out, if you really want to build up your Celtic cred, you will have to drop the "O" on O'Carolan. Big discussion about it on thesession.org awhile back, and that was the conclusion. Me? I'd settle for "Irish cred"! Were they talking about the English or Irish version of the name? A quick look at the site didn't turn it up - you might post a link, please? Regards |
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17 Feb 09 - 01:30 PM (#2569307) Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan From: bubblyrat When I was at school,in the 1950s,we were told that the Celtic language spoken by the populace of Ireland was called "Erse" .But----obviously these twats / morons/ gits didn't know what they were talking about . Sorry I even mentioned it,really. |
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17 Feb 09 - 01:52 PM (#2569326) Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan From: MartinRyan Don't worry about it - it's not much worse than confusing Holland with The Netherlands, really! (And we won't mention Fries...) Regards |
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17 Feb 09 - 01:57 PM (#2569329) Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan From: Bonnie Shaljean Not to worry, Bubbly ;-) Re the name issue: Donal O'Sullivan - still THE Carolan scholar - writes in his definitive biography Carolan: The Life, Times and Music of an Irish Harper His full name in Irish is Toirdhealbhach Ó Cearbhalláin, though one often meets with minor variations in the spelling of both forename and surname. The forename is generally rendered in English as Turlough or Terence. When Gaelic names of this type are written in full, it is proper to prefix the Ó to the surname. When, however, the surname is used singly, the only satisfactory method is to follow the form used by the owner of the name and by his friends. Carolan twice brings his own name into his poems - in his song for Fallon and his song for John Stafford, and in both cases he employs the form Cearbhallán not Ó Cearbhalláin. MacCabe, his most intimate friend, twice mentions his name in his elegy and uses the same form. Charles O'Connor, also a very close friend, refers to him in his diary, written in Irish, as Cearbhallán and in his letters to Walker, written in English, as Carolan, not O'Carolan. It is therefore certain that Carolan was known to himself and his friends as Cearbhallán or, in English, Carolan. Martin - or someone - am I right in vaguely remembering that it's normal practice when you use both surname and forename you use the patronymic Ó or O' but when you give only the surname, you drop it? So it should be either Turlough O'Carolan or simply Carolan - ? Anyway, the man himself seems to have settled the debate. |
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17 Feb 09 - 02:01 PM (#2569336) Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan From: MartinRyan On a much more mundane level, it is very common, in my experience, to hear Irish people speak of "Turolough O'Carolan" but to refer to something as "a Carolan tune"! Go figure! Regards |
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17 Feb 09 - 04:01 PM (#2569428) Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan From: MartinRyan Mind you - that ties in with Bonnie's comment, of course. Regards |
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17 Feb 09 - 05:32 PM (#2569497) Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan From: Malcolm Douglas See also thread Carolan or O'Carolan?? |
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17 Feb 09 - 05:43 PM (#2569508) Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan From: Bonnie Shaljean Gosh, I'd forgotten about that thread... a real trip down memory lane - coulda saved myself some typing... Cheers, Malcolm |
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17 Feb 09 - 08:44 PM (#2569633) Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan From: meself Martin - I don't know if I'll have any more luck than you had in finding that thread on thesession now; if I do, I'll certainly add a link. But in looking at this thread and the other Mudcat one on the subject, I think the discussion at thesession pretty much covers the same ground (without the unpleasantness). (Btw, I am aware that the term 'Celtic' has fallen into some disfavour, particularly on your side of the ocean - which is partly why I chose to use it. Just to rattle a chain or two .... ) |
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17 Feb 09 - 08:53 PM (#2569642) Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan From: Bonnie Shaljean Whoever posted at TheSession will only have the same information from the same source, i.e. Dr. O'Sullivan's book, whether it's been quoted from directly or cribbed (usually uncredited) by some website or other. |
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18 Feb 09 - 02:59 AM (#2569777) Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan From: MartinRyan Yeah, Bonnie, that's what I figured also, when I saw your quote. Like you, I had forgotten we'd chased it around the block ourselves in that old thread. Regards |
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05 Jun 09 - 11:44 AM (#2649118) Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan From: GUEST,An Niallach Óg Toirdhealbhach Ó Cearbhalláin in Donegal would be pronounced using English phonetics Tore-yul-wah* O-Cyare-wul-line** *first syllable "tore" as in 'she tore her dress'; last syllable a half voiced gutteral H sound like, the Castillian J **first syllable contains glide vowel pronounced like the word care but with a quick y sound before the 'are', last syllable like the "line" in the name Caroline, which sounds a lot like his surname. |
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05 Jun 09 - 11:51 AM (#2649126) Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan From: GUEST, Sminky Oh caroline My heart shined when you came in Oh caroline Life means more since you came in Cheap Trick |
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07 Jul 09 - 09:54 AM (#2673866) Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan From: Mr Happy All pronunciations can be perfected using the well known Teach Yourself book; "Brush up your Erse"!! |
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07 Jul 09 - 06:25 PM (#2674217) Subject: RE: Pronunciation--O Carolan From: bubblyrat What next ?? Toothbrushes and towels marked "Is" and "Erse" ?? And now I am even more confused,as it seems that Des O'Connor,if not using his first name,would just be "Connor".....is that correct ?? And if your name is Connor Connor O'Connor....it doesn't bear thinking about. |
