|
08 Mar 09 - 03:22 PM (#2584009) Subject: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: skarpi Hallo all , okei I know there has been alot of talkin about IRA and things they have done here on Mudcat . And there has been thank god peace in N-Ireland but in the news tonight they talked about the " True IRA " had gunned those soldiers to dead ? , . Why in earth did they do that . what do they complish by shootin them to dead ? Why cant they just let go ..... what is wrong with those people . comon stop now , sooner the peace is 100 % then soon N-Ireland will be free . Doin this is only gonna stop that to happening . So If you are Irish or British hold your hands together make peace for your children for the future ..... this is not helping at all . well , I dont know much about this , enough is enough . All the best Skarpi Iceland . |
|
08 Mar 09 - 03:34 PM (#2584023) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: MartinRyan hi Skarpi A group which calls itself the Real IRA has claimed "credit" for this latest murder. It is one of several small groups of what are known as "dissident republicans". This label covers groups who still support an armed struggle against the British state of which Northern Ireland is a part - in contrast to the "Provisional IRA" who have ended their armed campaign. Regards |
|
08 Mar 09 - 07:11 PM (#2584194) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Riginslinger Does anyone know what the strength and the support of the "dissient republicans" are? |
|
08 Mar 09 - 08:25 PM (#2584235) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Ed T Some information here: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5869386.ece |
|
08 Mar 09 - 09:15 PM (#2584261) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Jean(eanjay) These killings are shocking. I'm pleased to see that Sinn Féin's Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness have condemned them. |
|
08 Mar 09 - 09:15 PM (#2584262) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Den There's not much support for them. People are genuinely shocked that this happened. Right thinking people do not want to return the violence of the last thirty years. |
|
08 Mar 09 - 09:18 PM (#2584263) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: GUEST,Observer They are a TRUE republican group who carry on the fight for the removal of a British presence in the North of Ireland. British government assembly minister Gerry Adams sold the nationalist/republican people of the North of Ireland a pig and a poke. Once in office he rewrote the rule book. His party now sit in a British government assembly building with the Union Jack flying over it. There are 88 memorials in the building to centuries of British rule in Ireland and they gladly sit under them. Over the past 15 years he wormed around ageing members of the army council until he became Chief of Staff of the Provisional IRA. Once in this position the tail began to wag the dog. He had a motion passed recently in the British North of Ireland assembly to cancel the local council elections (which were to take place in June) until 2010 as he knew his British Sinn Fein party would be out on their ass as the people are sick of them. This group has a growing strength among young republicans and retain the right to continue the armed struggle against a nation which has brought rape, murder and misery to the Irish nation for over 800 years. I hope this answers your question Skarpi. Please ignore the negative responses of the pro British posters above. |
|
08 Mar 09 - 09:44 PM (#2584275) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Joe Offer I realize this is a controversial subject. I request that it be discussed in a civil manner. "Observer" has been around for a while and will be allowed to participate (assuming civil conduct). However, this thread is limited to regular Mudcat participants who use consistent posting names. |
|
08 Mar 09 - 09:50 PM (#2584279) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Ireland Now I know why Joe makes such threads members only. Skarpi the original IRA and its political wing has recognised that violence is not the way to peace, since they gave up violence they have been rewarded with being part of the gov and most importantly we have peace. As for our young it is only the delusional few that have support for the dissidents and that is a good thing. But it is a threat for the United Ireland inspired, when the young get a taste of peace and their children, we could end up in a situation were a U.I. is not that important. So in real terms people need to be reminded and have their blood boiled a bit, so they don't forget the cause. This will be a test for nat/rep politicians and their supporters to see if they will abide by the true will of the population and exercise real democracy here for once. BTW there are very few nat/rep political parties SF and SDLP the main two so this canceling council elections tactic is nonsense, as many nat/rep would vote for SF than SDLP. "So If you are Irish or British hold your hands together make peace for your children for the future ..... this is not helping at all ." Could not agree more well said. |
|
09 Mar 09 - 12:00 AM (#2584356) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Riginslinger It's hard to imagine how this works as a recruiting tool, but statistics in the US show that when the Neo-Nazi's hold a rally or some other event, their recruitments go up as well. |
|
09 Mar 09 - 12:20 AM (#2584364) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Ireland If the police had taken out the murderers on Sat night,not all would see it as ridding us off murderers more like the killing of a freedom fighter. We have fickle people,on both sides, who would use this as an excuse to "join up". Both sides feeding each other. SF was heading to N.Y. for a fund raiser, should people be more careful how they spend money? |
|
09 Mar 09 - 03:15 AM (#2584405) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: skarpi Thanks Joe :>) , and thanks all for this . kv Skarpi |
|
09 Mar 09 - 04:18 AM (#2584417) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Keith A of Hertford NOTE: Keith Content of this message has been passed directly to the addressee for comment. JoeClone |
|
09 Mar 09 - 04:34 AM (#2584427) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Keith A of Hertford pm if curious. keith. |
|
09 Mar 09 - 06:02 AM (#2584461) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: John MacKenzie I cannot imagine any question to which the correct answer is murder. |
|
09 Mar 09 - 08:34 AM (#2584563) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Richard Bridge Much as I object to any type of IRA or other terrorist activity, occupying military forces are a legitimate target, as the German army was the legitimate target of the resistance. But I resist the suggestion that the British Army is in fact an occupying army, since in my view transfer of political legitimacy from the original political structure some time round about Cromwell-ish, thus rendering the proper political authority the UK government, legitimately using armed force against unlawful uprising. I can however see the other point of view in that respect. The IRA (etc etc etc, and the other side) practice of killing those who were not combatants cannot however be legitimated. |
|
09 Mar 09 - 10:18 AM (#2584640) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: bubblyrat The kind of atrocity committed in the name of Irish Nationalism,in Northern Ireland,the other day,and which resulted in the deliberate murder of UNARMED young soldiers and the deliberate ATTEMPTED murder of , for God's sake, Pizza Delivery Men ( Like,how dangerous are THEY ??),was NOT the work of Patriots,Freedom-Fighters,Nationalists,Guerrillas,The Resistance,The Underground,or members of any Noble Cause anywhere at all .It was,however,the work of the most Cowardly,Despicable,Revolting,Sub-Human SCUM this world has ever spawned,and in my opinion,if this EVIL crime WAS ,in any way,sanctioned by "The Real IRA", then Ireland deserves to have British troops on its soil for the next THOUSAND YEARS,----or until this MADNESS stops. |
|
09 Mar 09 - 10:35 AM (#2584645) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: MartinRyan bubblyrat You comment: if this crime WAS ,in any way,sanctioned by "The Real IRA", then Ireland deserves to have British troops on its soil for the next THOUSAND YEARS They'd love that! The purpose of this kind of action is to provoke excessive response which in turn would goad republicans into more violence which in turn.... Let's wait and see how the Plain People of Ireland, as Myles used to call them, react. Regards |
|
09 Mar 09 - 10:38 AM (#2584647) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Keith A of Hertford How dangerous are Pizza deliverers? They were supplying a service to those lads (21 and 23) who would have shipped out to Afghanistan that vey night. That made them a legitimate target. Right Observer? |
|
09 Mar 09 - 11:39 AM (#2584701) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: skarpi Martin : then Ireland deserves to have British troops on its soil for the next THOUSAND YEARS No it does not , never let terrorists control you , thats a weakness . kv Skarpi |
|
09 Mar 09 - 11:58 AM (#2584713) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: MartinRyan skarpi I agree - I was just quoting bubblyrat back to himself to make the same point. Regards |
|
09 Mar 09 - 12:13 PM (#2584727) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Teribus To Skarpi who asked the question - This from the BBC: "Who are the Real IRA? The group was born out of a split in the mainstream Provisional IRA (PIRA) in October 1997, when the PIRA's so-called quartermaster-general resigned over Sinn Fein's embrace of the peace process. The man who walked out was Michael McKevitt, who is now serving a jail sentence for terrorist-related offences in the Irish Republic. McKevitt is married to Bernadette Sands McKevitt, a sister of hunger striker and Republican idol Bobby Sands. It is thought the Real IRA has access to some explosives and detonators which once belonged to the PIRA. The Real IRA was responsible for the Omagh bombing (15 August 1998) as well as a string of other attacks, including bombings in London and Birmingham. According to the latest report from the Independent Monitoring Commission (IMC), the body appointed by the British and Irish governments to report on the activities of paramilitaries, it continues efforts to "enhance its organisational capability". In the six-month period covered by the November 2008 report, the Real IRA had "sought to recruit, though with limited success, and it trained members, including in weapons use and manufacture". "It was eager to recruit disgruntled members of PIRA though we do not have information indicating that it has any material success," continued the report. "Like other dissidents, it undertook targeting, mainly of security force personnel, and it gathered information about them." "It continued to seek weapons from associates, criminals and from overseas as well as by manufacturing them itself." With regards to specific attacks, the report stated: "In May (2008) a PSNI officer was seriously injured by an explosive device detonated under his car; RIRA claimed responsibility. "In the same month it also claimed responsibility for an incendiary device which caused damage to a store in Cookstown (County Tyrone) and for another at a store in Lurgan (County Armagh). "We believe RIRA was responsible for two incendiary devices which caused some damage at a restaurant in Cookstown, again in May, though on this occasion the organisation did not claim responsibility." The report continued: "In a brutal attack in April (2008) RIRA members burst into a victim's home in Belfast and shot him in both legs; arrests and weapon finds followed this incident. "Two other vicious RIRA shootings occurred in June (2008), and members of the Real IRA also assaulted a Sinn Fein MLA in July." Virginnia Tam please note all these took place long, long before any announcement was made regarding SRR unit deployments. |
|
09 Mar 09 - 12:59 PM (#2584768) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: wysiwyg Like most conflicts, this one masquerades as simple but actually has numerous layers all in need of resolution. (FMI see "Beyond Intractability" dot org.) This one, for example, has race, class, religion, generational, and other aspects in addition to the obvious nationality and sovereignty issues. And like other conflicts, this one remains intractable because people allow themselves to be drawn into arguments about which solution is best, instead of working together but separately (in "concord") to apply ALL possible solutions-- each person in their own setting or sphere of influence. ~Susan |
|
09 Mar 09 - 04:43 PM (#2584973) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Ed T First, let me say that I personally feel this act was very wrong. But, I also feel that most, political-based killing is wrong. Someone said to me once that most suicide bombers, who kill non-combatants (civilians or government officials) are seen by many as freedom fighters, not criminals. In many cases, their cause is the liberation of what they see as their land, society,or government, from what they see as occupiers or illegitimate rulers. In some cases they claim to represent the interests of a majority, in others a minority...but always the real interests of the legitimate residents of an area or society. We all have our favourite causes, and human nature makes us tend to favour one side, or interest over another in most conflicts. So, how do we define what is universally right or what is wrong? Where should the line be drawn? Here are just a few scattered examples, (many come to mind from history). Which are right, which are wrong? Palistian suicide bombers kill Israelies. Isrealies, kill Palistinian leaders and residents in retaliation. Native American militants kill government agents on their land. African governments kill the racially different, (not to mention death in the Bakans) Quebec separtists kidnap and kill British diplomat. US troops bomb areas killing civilians in Iraq US troopps killed in Somalia and in Lebanon Afganistan fighters kill Russian troops Afganistan Taliban fighters kill NATO troops Native warriers kill settlers in Canada and USA British, Spanish, Portugese and French kill natives while colonizing Slaves killed by many throughout history Nazi's kill anyone rebelling in newly acquired countries. Genghis Khan, Attila the hun, Mao, Lennan, and the Romans kill many Roman Catholics kill non believers in the Inquisition (Yet to be established) USA colonists kill British troops over taxes Pacific Island natives kill Captain Cook. British kill rebelling scottish and Irish. Campbells kill MacDonalds (well, OK, that one is a streatch) |
|
09 Mar 09 - 06:11 PM (#2585079) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Peace People anywhere can find excuses for killing others. |
|
09 Mar 09 - 06:48 PM (#2585113) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Ireland They are people who trade in death,another shooting has occurred in Craigavon, I believe it is a policeman that's got shot. |
|
10 Mar 09 - 03:14 PM (#2585834) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: The Sandman guest Observer ,I believe in a united Ireland,that is under one jurisdiction [ and not the English government].I believe that a few in the real ira,want to maintain a border ,because it suits them financially ,they make money out of smuggling.[they could possibly have a vested interst in derailing the peace process]. the removal of the border, removes their income. Thomas Slab Murphy has a house that straddles the border. |
|
10 Mar 09 - 03:35 PM (#2585846) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: GUEST,Observer "I believe that a few in the real ira,want to maintain a border ,because it suits them financially ,they make money out of smuggling". Any fool can tell you that due to the current strength of the Euro, it's freestaters coming up the ways to buy in the North of Ireland. Drink & Tobacco are being carted out of border towns by the van load. In the cross-border trade category of Food, Drink & Tobacco,exports from the North of Ireland to the Free State are down by 31.1%. Shops in the North of Ireland can't hold out to Electricial goods such as tv's and computers heading south. You say you believe this group is currently making a lot of money out of smuggling from the free state into the North of Ireland. Please tell us what proof you have of "current" smuggling. What has Tam Murphy's house got to do with this ? |
|
10 Mar 09 - 04:16 PM (#2585869) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Ireland Slab Murphy has built a multimillion pound (stg) property port folio his home is worth millions. He has around £40 million which is meant to be the result of smuggling. A raid on his farmhouse revealed fleet of oil tankers,30,000 ciggies, shot guns etc etc. For a simple farmer that is some going. |
|
10 Mar 09 - 04:45 PM (#2585880) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: MartinRyan GuestOBSERVER, Smugglers don't mind which direction the price differential lies! Now if I could only find Sean Mone's wonderful song about the Transit van.... Regards |
|
10 Mar 09 - 04:48 PM (#2585884) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: MartinRyan Yep - HERE it is - though I'm fascinated by its classification as "Irish, political"!. Regards |
|
10 Mar 09 - 10:12 PM (#2586097) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Riginslinger And then there's this: You may talk and sing and boast about your Peelers and your clans, And how the boys from County Cork beat up the Black and Tan. But I know a little codger who came out without a scar. His name is Paddy Mulligan, the man from Mullingar. The Peelers chased him out of Connemara, For beatin' up the valiant Dan O'Hara. And when he came to Ballymore, he stole the Parson's car, And he sold it to the Bishop in the town of Castlegar. Seven hundred Peelers couldn't match him. The Chieftain paid the army for to catch him. And when he came to Dublin Town, he stole an armoured car And sold it to the IRA brigade in Mullingar. Well the Peelers got their orders to suppress the man on sight. So they sent for reinforcements through the county left and right. Three thousand men surrounded him, they hunted near and far. But he was with the IRA brigade in Johnson's motorcar. The Peelers chased him out of Connemara, For beatin' up the valiant Dan O'Hara. And when he came to Ballymore, he stole the Parson's car, And he sold it to the Bishop in the town of Castlegar. Seven hundred Peelers couldn't match him. The Chieftain paid the army for to catch him. And when he came to Dublin Town, he stole an armoured car And sold it to the IRA brigade in Mullingar. They came with tanks and armoured cars, they came with all their might. Them Peelers never counted on old Paddy's dynamite. On the fourteenth day of April, well he blew them to July. And the name of Paddy Mulligan took half of Ireland's pride. |
|
11 Mar 09 - 03:17 AM (#2586178) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: MartinRyan riginslinger Not sure I see the conection. Do we need a thread for transport-nation songs? ;>) regards |
|
11 Mar 09 - 08:58 AM (#2586316) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Keith A of Hertford Den, sorry if I am putting you on the spot, but you are the only member who used to post in support the actions of PIRA who have posted now against actions of RIRA and CIRA. Why are they not "right thinking people" but PIRA supporters were? |
|
11 Mar 09 - 07:49 PM (#2586768) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Riginslinger "Not sure I see the conection. Do we need a thread for transport-nation songs? ;>)" Just trying to follow up. But it would be frustrating to be running around chased by peelers, wouldn't you think? |
|
12 Mar 09 - 08:47 AM (#2587104) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Den Do you really, honestly need to ask that question? Or are you just trying to yank my chain? |
|
12 Mar 09 - 09:28 AM (#2587133) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Keith A of Hertford It is the crucial question. The dissidents say they are carrying on the fight against the British presence in Ireland, and that Sinn Fein and the Provisionals have sold out to the British. They see no difference in the campaigns. You do? |
|
12 Mar 09 - 09:32 AM (#2587135) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Keith A of Hertford I would not blame you if you duck this one. keith. |
|
12 Mar 09 - 10:02 AM (#2587154) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Big Mick Let me step in, even though I do not live in the North. But you all know where my sympathies lie. It is my opinion the body of evidence is clear as to the oppression, theft of land, and imposition of their laws by the British in Ireland, as well as the outright discrimination in employment and education against the Catholic Irish. I believe that the armed struggle was a legitimate one, as well as the guerilla tactics against that oppressor that had superior firepower. The North OF Ireland is just that. Having said that, it is clear that the people that live there have spoken with a very loud voice. They seek to move from the armed struggle to a political struggle. They have chosen to move from armed camps to political camps to express their chosen points of view. This has always been about those same people. It has always been about them righting ancient wrongs, and that has been a fight that they have never given up on. They have simply moved to another arena. The will of the people is what makes the difference, IMO. They supported the IRA, PIRA in the struggle. Now they support the ballot box and peace. I think if you go back in other threads about this process, you will find that I said somewhere that the road to a lasting peace will have rough spots. There are fighters out there, on both sides, for whom there has always been the fight, and that is who they are. They may not realize it but peace threatens who they are. Some will get by that, and some will not. A struggle that is cultural and generations old, will take time to end. |
|
12 Mar 09 - 12:08 PM (#2587225) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Keith A of Hertford If only the will of the people can prevail this time, because they did not support PIRA before. They always supported the ballot box. It was Sinn Fein that changed, leaving the dissidents behind, and not the people. |
|
12 Mar 09 - 12:20 PM (#2587234) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Den Keith A of Hertford why do you continue to pick at scabs. Bloody Sunday changed everything for the people that supported democracy including me. Unprecidented violence was visited upon the peace process in N. Ireland and changed it forever. Why do you, as someone from another country try to rewrite history. We as a people have lived through the conflict and will continue to move the peace process forward and do so on a daily basis through dialogue. You will never understand this. |
|
12 Mar 09 - 12:49 PM (#2587254) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Keith A of Hertford Stateing falsehoods as truths does not take us forward. PIRA may have had more support than the dissidents do now, but it was never a majority of the Nationalist people of the North. Was it Den? |
|
12 Mar 09 - 02:07 PM (#2587311) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Stu "We as a people have lived through the conflict" In a way everyone on our Islands have lived through this conflict. I can remember the terror caused by the bombs in Birmingham when people were really scared, and the Manchester bomb which had such a profound effect on the city, to this day it's impossible to escape it's consequences. Of course our perspectives are different as I've no idea what it's like to live under occupation, but I know how shit scared people become when bombs go off in shopping precincts and pubs. "Why do you, as someone from another country try to rewrite history." Ignorance. Because no-one in the UK is taught what really has happened in Ireland under British occupation. People do not have a clue about the subject, only what they read in the press and see on the TV (and this is still appalling biased - BBC breakfast the other day featured an interview with Tim Collins, retired Colonel who is famous for his inspirational speech in which Collins' hatred of Republicans involved in the peace process was aired and went utterly unchallenged by the interviewer). No-one is taught the history of the fight to establish Irish independence or the reasons for partition or any other aspect of the history of the struggle that might place the Troubles into any sort of context. The whole issue of the behaviour of the British Empire in countries it occupied is simply not discussed, end of story. Amritsar and Croke Park? No-one's ever heard of them and they probably couldn't tell you where they were. I'm reading a book on the English Civil War at the moment (which has an obvious bearing on the subject) and even that's not taught in schools as far as I'm aware (it wasn't when I at school anyway, all those years ago). In Britain we don't even know our own history let alone anyone else's. I picked up a copy of Saoirse? at Claddagh in Dublin recently - this should be shown in every school in the country as a start. It would be good if we could all see the other point of view. It's only a matter of time before a united Ireland, let's just hope we can get there without the thugs and men of violence on all sides wrecking the whole process. |
|
12 Mar 09 - 02:49 PM (#2587345) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: GUEST,Stephen Big Mick you believe that the "armed struggle" was a legitimate one. Why then did the PIRA target civilians in Britain and Northern Ireland who weren't armed? One thing that sticks in my craw about this "peace agreement" is that multiple murderers were given a get out of jail free card without actually being brought to account for their actions; many of whom may now be part of "The Real IRA". It gives a legitimacy to killing unarmed men women and children that it no way warranted. |
|
12 Mar 09 - 05:08 PM (#2587461) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Keith A of Hertford Sugarfoot Jack, your comments about ignorance do not apply here. Most contributors are well enough informed, but differ in interpretation. I did not make the point about support for PIRA to just "pick at scabs." It is crucial here. Because of their own history, Sinn Fein can not tell the dissidents to desist just because they do not have the people behind them. That is why I asked Den what made the difference. It was not just to yank your chain mate. keith. |
|
12 Mar 09 - 05:31 PM (#2587474) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: GUEST,AR Keith, you really go at it. Why the hell do you want to stir the pot ? Please don't tell us you don't enjoy firing up the Irish. I don't see any Irish catters shouting "Up the ira" yet you go on and on and on. I could see your point if you'd been a serving squaddie over there or lost friends in Ireland, correct me if I got this wrong, but you were a part time soldier in the TA and never saw any kind of service deployment ? You clearly enjoy going to war against ira men by keypad, but the Irish guys here are into music, plants or their grand kids. Would your time not be better served firing keypad messages on some Irish republican rebel site ? Man dear it does become boring,and you start threads about peace in Ireland or Irish rebels and welt the back of the Irish for standing against masters who arrived over there from Britain. Keith, if the German army had landed on my shore during the 1939-45 war my old man would have cut the crap out of them any way he could (he was a Sapper in the Great War). So Keith, were the Irish wrong not to roll over and take what we did to them ? There was a government in Northern Ireland in the 1950's which treated Irish catholic's like slaves and second grade. Come on man, be honest, if you knew the south coast was covered in landing craft and your town hall had been taken over you would be one of the first to "tip and run" against their rule. See it from both sides and give a little more understanding. Stop trying to start fights and give Irish guys a hard time, life is much too short. Cheers. Al. |
|
12 Mar 09 - 05:43 PM (#2587485) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Big Mick Al, this isn't about a search for peace, or seeing both sides for these people. It is clear from the response I got, that this is simply a combative person. It is easy to use "black-white, right-wrong" to shoot down all conversations. One must have a desire for understanding in order to understand. The real motives of these people are to justify their country's wrong headed and discriminatory policies in the North. Fortunately for all of us, the Protestant and Catholic peoples of the North seem to have stopped listening to all that, and move ahead with understanding and a desire to live in peace. And they have chosen the wise way in terms of "terrorism". Remember that one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Neither side will justify the other, and remain at loggerheads, unless that principle is recognized and understood. Here's to peace for all the children of the North, and their families. To hell with those that will not try to see both sides and progress towards a better time. All the best, Mick |
|
12 Mar 09 - 06:00 PM (#2587500) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Teribus I think it was some time around 1970 or 1971 that the "Official" IRA made the decision to stand apart from armed struggle and only retaliate if attacked. Their view was that the civil rights movement would win as it had immense support throughout not only Ireland but on mainland Great Britain as well. This did not sit well with some of the membership and so the "Provisional" IRA were formed. This decision resulted in almost 3600 deaths and over 35,000 injured. I think that if it had been possible for the "Official" IRA to comment in the media at that time, they would be saying of the "Provisional" IRA more or less what Sinn Feinn are saying now about the "Real" IRA and "Continuity" IRA who let's face it came into being when the "Provisional" IRA was convinced that "their" armed struggle was getting them nowhere and that the only game in town was to junk the Armalite and use the Ballot Box. Big Mick's post is the most depressing I've read on this thread, because reading that it screams the streotype of Plastic Paddy who will only be too pleased to dip his hand in his pocket to "Help the oul' cause", in the full knowledge that innocents will die. I would have thought that memories of 11th September 2001 would have illustrated how glamourous and righteous the terrorists cause is in real life. Significant that as yet we have yet to hear one word of condemnation of those attacks from the President, Vice-President or any member of their administration, the two unarmed young sappers of the Royal Engineers were dressed in desert camouflage and were within hours of deploying to Afghanistan to fight in common cause with US troops when they were murdered - and so far not a single word of condemnation. As long as such as think as you do exist Big Mick and refuse to educate themselves objectively there will always be support and funding in the good old US of A for any gangster that springs from the woodwork wrapped in a tricolour with a gun in one hand and a bomb in the other - truly bloody depressing. Some news for you Big Mick, the IRA be it "Official"; "Provisional"; "Real";"Continuity" never, repeat never had any mandate from the people of Ireland to kill the best part of 2100 fellow Irish men women and children, but not to worry eh it's over 3,000 miles away. |
|
12 Mar 09 - 06:19 PM (#2587511) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Keith A of Hertford Mick, I missed Al's post. Am I the "combative person" ? Is it part of the deal that falsehoods given by Republicans must not be corrected? You would jump on me if I put one up. I did not challenge all the other stuff in your post, and I gave the reason why that one had to be addressed. I really do not know why you cling to it. It is so easy to show it is false and it has been several times. If we are serious about this discussion, and you and I agree on wanting the dissidents to stop, then we must talk about why they think it right and we and Sinn Fein do not. |
|
12 Mar 09 - 06:37 PM (#2587534) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Keith A of Hertford My reply to sugarfoot jack was deleted, I hope by mistake. Here it is. Sugarfoot Jack, your comments about ignorance do not apply here. Most contributors are well enough informed, but differ in interpretation. I did not make the point about support for PIRA to just "pick at scabs." It is crucial here. Because of their own history, Sinn Fein can not tell the dissidents to desist just because they do not have the people behind them. That is why I asked Den what made the difference. It was not just to yank your chain mate. keith. |
|
12 Mar 09 - 06:45 PM (#2587542) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: GUEST,AR Please Keith just drop it, leave the Irish situation to the Irish, you are like my ole dog with his blanket. You seem to have a bone to pick with republicans, I repeat, go to an Irish rebel site and talk with those that are interested, we an't mate. Now you have a guy teribus fired up too. We all want peace, not just in Ireland, on here too ! |
|
12 Mar 09 - 07:02 PM (#2587564) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Keith A of Hertford Al, all I said was that PIRA did not have the support of a majority of Nationalists, and I explained why it needed to be said. We must all be prepared to come to terms with uncomfortable truths. You posted justification for PIRA's campaign. I will not challenge that now but remember NICRA and SDLP did challenge it from the start, and they were not English like me, and they DID have the support of the majority of Nationalists. |
|
12 Mar 09 - 07:22 PM (#2587588) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: GUEST,AR Keith, the situation there wasn't one sided, there was wrong done by both sides and people see you care to overlook the actions of British soldiers and government policy for years against the Irish. Sometime admit the actions of soldiers and government were wrong and people might see your point. Take a break from this, I saw some individuals in a totally different light during this debate. |
|
12 Mar 09 - 07:33 PM (#2587597) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Peter K (Fionn) Can't quite see what Big Mick did to deserve that tirade from Teribus, but if Mick is indeed moderating as well as contributing in this thread, as someone suggested, that surely is inappropriate? All of which is by the by. My main purpose is to say that Keith A is showing himself to be blinkered, embittered and obsessive beyond reason. I am on the record here, often and alas sometimes at length, condemning as criminal some of the excesses of the Provos - incinerating a dozen people with a napalm-type bomb at the Le Mons hotel in 1978, to mention one - and also urging republicans to make some effort to understand the protestant/loyalist mindset. Nearly always I was in a tiny minority here. I am delighted that at last I now seem to be on the majority side. The difference between then and now, Keith, if you lack the capacity to work it out for yourself, is that properly democratic processes now prevail in Northern Ireland. Perhaps even more important than that, Northern Ireland now has a police service that is fully accountable and which is supported by an overwhelming majority in all parts of the community. (Thus Gerry Adams was prepared to say on Channel 4 News and no doubt elsewhere that it is not for the Provos to take action in respect of the recent dissident atrocities because there is now a trusted police service whose job that is.) Some sort of desperation must have driven Keith to say that the Provos never had majority support within the nationalist community. They had democratic legitimacy from the hunger strike onwards, and Sinn Fein went on to eclipse the SDLP. Keith and I would probably agree about some of the atrocities of the past, but we would certainly disagree about the shameful shortcomings of governance in Northern Ireland throughout most of its existence. The real scope for argument would be about the extent to which the former were justified by the latter. But what on earth would be the point, Keith? Most people on both sides have moved on. Why the hell can't you? One other point: the measured and thought-provoking way that Kate Carroll has spoken about the murder of her husband will have gone a long way towards negating any recruitment potential for CIRA/RIRA from these three murders. |
|
12 Mar 09 - 07:40 PM (#2587605) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: GUEST,AR Peter, Keith seems fixed on the actions of the ira, he over looks faults by the British army which leaves him wide open. Well said, maybe your wording will edge him into 2009. |
|
12 Mar 09 - 07:54 PM (#2587618) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Big Mick AR, you are mistaken about your earlier post. After I posted my last post I left home and have only just now returned. I restored the deleted post (and deleted the repeat later and references to it as they were not needed), because it did not violate any rules. If the tone of your post was meant to be insulting to me, I am sorry to hear that. My positions on this subject are clear, and have been carried by me almost since the beginning of this forum. My knowledge of the issues is not uninformed, rather based on knowledge gained (and understanding sought) from those on the ground there, in addition to having lived among immigrant Irish Republicans most of my life. I do not embrace any glorified concept of this conflict, rather I believe firmly (for all the political and historical reasons) in a united Ireland. In fact I was one of the few carried those arguments early. But I support the process that is going on, primarily because it is supported by the people who live there. But I will not be an apologist for what has gone before. This is an old struggle, and it is a righteous struggle. And now it is taking a new path. As to Teribus, it is clear that he cannot read for comprehension. Were he able to, he would understand that I support the peoples of the North and what they are trying to accomplish. But I do so with not a whit of apology for what went before, and which carried us to this moment. But as I said, the people of the North of Ireland have spoken and they have chosen a new path. And, btw, Teribus, your motives are so clear in your last post. I know you to be intelligent and perfectly capable of understanding the meaning and intent of what I wrote. For you to respond as you did only shows you for what you are. And it is my belief that what you are is a close minded bigot, and the antithesis of intellectual discussion. Intellectual discussion would demand that you try to explore cause and effect, and understand your opponent. But you simply seek to denigrate your opponents. Boor, neanderthal, provincial, and any number of less poolite terms come to mind. As to being a "Plastic Paddy", let me say this. I am torn between responding as if the comment came from a mental midget, or conversely from someone seeking to somehow just insult. If it is the former, then I will just ignore it. If it is the latter, then when the day comes that we meet, I surely hope you will remind me of the same. We can resolve it then in whatever way seems appropriate at the time. Darts, billiards, arm wrestling......... or whatever else honor demands. Mick |
|
12 Mar 09 - 08:25 PM (#2587636) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: GUEST,AR Mick, thank you understood. I re-posted my comment as I felt it broke no rules. I am not interested in a slagging match here, but this guy Keith is so fixed in his reporting of a one sided past it is becoming annoying. He can't and won't admit to the murders by British army or the murderous role of the British in Ireland. I read through several of your posts recently and you appeared to have a great understanding of the situation in Ireland, I read one post yesterday them moments later you pulled it, I have to say I can't run with you there. This thread has moved a little into Keith and the past according to him. Please do not take the bait with that teribus guy, I read some of his older posts too, foolish is the word that comes to mind, annoyed he wasn't involved at street level I think, please don't stoop that low to reply to him. I will gladly admit to understanding the actions of the Irish and their right to deal with the invader. Regarding the age old comments by Keith and teribus, many things happen in war, not all are intended. I will also say I felt you were deleting posts because they showed support for republicans. If I was wrong, sorry. One last thing, remember when an english man uses that line teribus did, you know he beat him hands done in a debate. Poor guy. The Irish people will always be grateful to the American nation for their support through the tough times, they delivered and it will never be forgotten. Slan |
|
12 Mar 09 - 09:01 PM (#2587655) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Big Mick Al, I would never delete posts because they were in support, or against, anyone. I only remove posts that violate the personal attack rule, or under a very limited set of circumstances which are well laid out. As to the issue of Republicans, in the Irish sense, I am a firm supporter of the Republican/Nationalist cause. I have been unequivocal about this over the many years I have been here. I am also a veteran who understands armed conflict in very specific ways. It has given me a grim understanding of the horror of war, no matter how legitimate the cause. Armed conflict is often necessary, but should never be seen as a glorious event, and if one is being honest, should be seen as a complete human failure when it occurs. And then steps will be taken to end it. That is where I see the peoples of the North of Ireland. They want a different way, and they are now demonstrating that. That is what I support. And I concur completely about TB, and to a lesser extent, Keith. One could enjoy the debate with them if they would but admit that the root of all this lies in the actions of the Crown. If they would simply admit that the treatment of the indigenous Irish peoples at the hands of the British government, and that same government turning a blind eye to the egregious discrimination against the Catholic population by the monied capitalists, is a shameful episode with repercussions that have lasted centuries and will resonate for years into the future, then decent discussion could occur. Al, may I suggest you search for the thread on "Back Home In Derry", and read it through, then look at some of the linked threads at the top of the pages. You will then understand how long this has gone on here. You will also see how opinions have changed and enlightenment has occurred. all the best, Mick |
|
12 Mar 09 - 09:24 PM (#2587669) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: GUEST,AR Excellent, just read it briefly there, worth more time tomorrow. I do hope Keith finds peace in his heart and removes his blinkers. That other guy isn't worth speaking about, he firmly believes "In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king". I do understand people may wish to express their feelings at recent events, but sadly in this thread one person has used it rake up the past and attempt to goat members. This serves no purpose. One also has to accept there will always be those willing to carry on the age old fight for Irish freedom. They cannot be ignored because some disagree with them. Goodnight and thanks Al R. |
|
12 Mar 09 - 10:36 PM (#2587705) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Riginslinger I'm a complete outsider, and I wouldn't blame the knowledgeable posters here from jumping all over me for raising my head. But I took a graduate class in Irish Literature a number of years ago, and the professor was Irish--or maybe an Irish immigrant--and the course material concentrated on the more famous writers we all know from the Republic of Ireland, but the last week of the course, we read some material written by Catholic writers living in Northern Ireland. It was the most gut-wrenching literature I've ever been exposed to in my life. I'll never forget it. |
|
12 Mar 09 - 11:36 PM (#2587729) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Big Mick I have read much from the same well, Riggy, and spoken with writers of literature such as you describe. I think your assessment is dead on. Mick |
|
13 Mar 09 - 03:01 AM (#2587776) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Keith A of Hertford I did not say wrong was on one side only. I have not criticised or even mentioned any action of PIRA I have not challenged the many views expressed that I disagree with. I have not defended the army. I have not discussed the origins of all these disputes. In the above posts I have been criticised for each of those and more. I did correct what I thought was a simple error of fact, that I thought significant. For that I am branded combatative, blinkered, etc., etc. If I was wrong I will withdraw and grovel. I thought that SDLP did not eclipse Sinn Fein until the cease fire. If I am right, it is my detractors who are blinkered. So which is it? The voting figures are available, and I have posted them before. Perhaps I missed some. I am not interested in having one of the old slanging matches. I just want to understand the dissidents' motivations. Please stop telling me how bad I am and just correct my single mistake if that is what it is. keith. |
|
13 Mar 09 - 03:16 AM (#2587779) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: MartinRyan Keith of Hereford's views are unusual in this community. He presents those views dispassionately, if persistently. He SHOULD be protected from those in this community who respond with personal abuse and innuendo. He CAN'T be protected from those who respond with repeated raking over of material which we know, from vast experience, can't be resolved by argument. Regards |
|
13 Mar 09 - 03:47 AM (#2587789) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: skarpi oh dear !!! would rather like to talk abaut palmtrees and cocnuts ?? |
|
13 Mar 09 - 04:57 AM (#2587816) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Stu Keith, I realise that my post looked like it was a sideswipe at you but this wasn't my intention. It was my intention to point out the fact that most people living on mainland Britain are utterly ignorant of the historical roots of the conflict in the North. |
|
13 Mar 09 - 07:51 AM (#2587878) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Ireland SAOIRSE32 27 August 2008 Trouble flared when police went to investigate telephone bomb warnings in the nationalist Tullygally and Drumbeg area on Monday evening. http://saoirse32.blogsome.com/2008/08/27/sniper-fires-at-riot-police/ Dissidents used the bomb warning to lure police into the area to murder them. A dissident representative was on camera condemning everyone except themselves, they decried the presence of the PSNI, even though they were there to deal with a nonexistent bomb. What happened was a practice run to the murder of officer Carroll,he was called to the same area to deal with a brick threw through a window. Should he have not done his job? I wonder how many people have ever set foot on the ground in N.Ireland's trouble spots, how many get information first hand or do they rely in the biased reporting of newspapers. Why has the IRA/SF got the gaul to tell dissidents not to use violence,like the official IRA told the PIRA before them, all have one thing in common. They found out that violence does not work and as a PSNI widow put it,the murdering only gets people a 6'by6' piece of land. These so-called freedom fighters have oppressed the very people they want to "set free" more than any occupation could do. In the Craigavon area mentioned in the above report I have family and friends,and some enemies, who say they want nothing to do with the dissidents,but they are shit scared to confront them. They do not like watching the easily led young rioting and being hooked on this fighting for Ireland's freedom BS. I have always wondered why they do not do a DAAD and picket outside the known dissidents fancy house, they are shit scared to do it,why? because these people are terrorised into keeping their mouths shut. We now have a 17 yr old who could potentially face life in prison, did we not have enough 15-17 yr old's throw their youth and their victims life away at the behest of some terrorist commander. Any one answer why continuing the struggle would be a good thing or could they explain to that 17yr old's parents why his involvement in a murder was beneficial to their son? After thirty or so years of armed violence SF would know what they are talking about and if they say violence was not working it, it was not working. Here is an interesting vid, and we wonder how some get their information on N.Ieland. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y7SXIoTOx0&feature=related |
|
13 Mar 09 - 08:23 AM (#2587891) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: GUEST,AR Ireland, get your facts straight, you said "A dissident representative was on camera condemning everyone except themselves, they decried the presence of the PSNI, even though they were there to deal with a nonexistent bomb". This individual spoke on television on behalf of a respected all Ireland political group, not a so called illegal dissident group. Stop trying to create trouble. |
|
13 Mar 09 - 08:27 AM (#2587894) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Keith A of Hertford The guest Observer was the only contributor defending the dissidents. He has fallen silent. |
|
13 Mar 09 - 08:30 AM (#2587896) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Stu Here's a timely reminder of what the people of Ireland and Britain face if we slip back to the violence: Belfast Telegraph photo gallery. It's the ordinary people of the North and Britain who bear the brunt of these troubles, not the politicians, commanders and those miles away. |
|
13 Mar 09 - 09:31 AM (#2587925) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Ireland Fraid not, even Sf have eluded to this person also and have asked why they do not come forward now, O'Dowd, if he is who you are referring to, made ridicules clams that the PSNI were protecting dissidents, what crud, why would they protect those who want to murder them. Besides if they did have informers infiltrated in the dissidents ranks,like they had the IRA, it would be stupid to highlight that fact. Here is also a timely reminder of what the other side of the equation can offer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li24LABcWHg What happens those who want none of it and are caught in the middle. K of H. has asked the questions that needs to be asked and not only for one side he has put many through the mangle to iron out their views. Nothing wrong with that. He is well informed on the situation in Ireland and imo he has more knowledge than most of the so called experts we have to listen to. The question K Of H asked pricked some people and made the murder of 2500 or so people by the IRA questionable,what gave them the right to murder so many and tell others that they have no mandate or support for their acts of murder. Was K Of H right that SF did not have the support of all nat/rep, the only people who can answer that is the people themselves. The sad fact is, if the armed struggle had worked all those who had aspiration for a U.I. would "win" even if they supported the IRA or not. I get a feeling when people use such statements as "slaves" etc they could write what they know about N.I. on a postage stamp or maybe on an elastic band to stretch it to a sentence. We hear this word occupied,what nonsense, my family went through the same struggles as my families catholic landlord did. Back in the late 60's, as a child I can remember icicle's in my bedroom window. WE did not have electricity, running water etc, this is not to diminish the problems that Catholics faced, they were treated like shit,but many protestants face the same problems. The root cause was the pieces of crap that ran N.Ireland they need dug up and slapped for the legacy they left my generation onwards. But in the spirit of K OF H I have to ask why these people thought the way they did. Partition as we all know basically came about due to the same reasons we have peace today, people realised (Collins) that violence was not working. The North was for the protestants and the south for the Catholics was a predominant mindset back then.I do not justify it but in a small way can understand it, given the war held mainly in the republic. My point is these so-called heroes,Carson and his ilk, protestant Ulster for a protestant people had some small justification for holding them views. Long post short Should we not be looking at why people do what they do and just then we could come to some understanding. Which is I think K.Of H' point. |
|
13 Mar 09 - 10:19 AM (#2587957) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: GUEST,AR Yet again your talking through your ass. This guy is a clean skin otherwise they would have tugged him, they tried often enough. Please stop entering into debates you have neither proof or support of. Maybe you would prefer to address your lies to him ? |
|
13 Mar 09 - 11:11 AM (#2587996) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Ireland What are you on about, why is it that when people remind those that there is another side they are talking out their ass? Explain yourself. |
|
13 Mar 09 - 11:13 AM (#2587998) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Teribus In response to Big Mick's post of 12 Mar 09 - 10:02 AM 1. "Let me step in, even though I do not live in the North." – OK, so you're an outside observer. 2. "But you all know where my sympathies lie." – So you have now identified yourself as a biased outside observer 3. It is my opinion the body of evidence is clear as to the oppression, theft of land, and imposition of their laws by the British in Ireland, as well as the outright discrimination in employment and education against the Catholic Irish. As a biased outside observer what body of evidence is clear? Upon what has this opinion been based? In a later post you admit that you have never been to Northern Ireland and that: "My knowledge of the issues is not uninformed, rather based on knowledge gained (and understanding sought) from those on the ground there, in addition to having lived among immigrant Irish Republicans most of my life." Hearsay in other words. 4. I believe that the armed struggle was a legitimate one, as well as the guerilla tactics against that oppressor that had superior firepower. The North OF Ireland is just that. Really?? You actually believe that?? Then in your view exactly the same would apply by way of justification to those who carried out the attacks of 11th September 2001, in New York and in Washington DC. I bet you shout that from the roof-tops for all to hear at home. 5. "Having said that, it is clear that the people that live there have spoken with a very loud voice. They seek to move from the armed struggle to a political struggle." I take it that we are talking about ALL the people who live in Northern Ireland here? Or are you only referring to one section of them? I somehow suspect that the latter is the case. Can you tell us, as a biased outside observer, exactly when those people loudly voiced their support of the armed struggle in the first place?? I ask because I was over there at the time things started and while we were there protecting the Catholic/Nationalist Areas from Loyalists mobs and paramilitaries, and disarming the 'B' Specials, I never heard any of this clamour for armed struggle that you infer. Additionally as agreed with the GFA a referendum was taken throughout the length and breadth of Ireland which clearly demonstrated that the people of Ireland saw no place for political violence in Irish Politics that view was supported by the vast majority of those who voted. The Republics "constitutional" claim on the six counties was also dropped. So the people spoke with a very loud voice about eleven years ago. Had they been given the chance, knowing what we all know now, they would have spoken in that same loud voice forty years ago. 6. "They seek to move from the armed struggle to a political struggle. They have chosen to move from armed camps to political camps to express their chosen points of view." The people of Northern Ireland, mainland Britain and various other locations never really had much option about finding themselves in an armed struggle to begin with. That reality was forced upon them by various paramilitary organizations including "dissident" elements of the "Official" IRA. Just as now the people of Northern Ireland and mainland Britain are faced with a return to those bad old days, coutesy of "dissident" elements of the "Provisional" IRA. Currently the PSNI and Security forces are trying to locate a car bomb that the "Real" IRA has brought into Northern Ireland. Reported to be similar in size to the one rendered safe in Castlewellan at the end of January this year that would put its weight at 300lbs – What was it our biased outside observer said about guerilla tactics against oppressors with superior firepower again? – Oh yes, legitimate that was it – Guess who the bomb will kill and maim, if it goes off?? 7. "This has always been about those same people. It has always been about them righting ancient wrongs, and that has been a fight that they have never given up on." I'll ask you once again, who are you referring to as, "those same people", the population of Northern Ireland, or just the "Nationalist" community of Northern Ireland. So it's all about "righting ancient wrongs" eh, that's alright then, sounds like a bit of fun. By the bye, does everybody get a shot at "righting ancient wrongs" then, or does this only apply in selected cases that you happen to approve of? I ask because there might be more than a few in your own neck of the woods who might want some ancient wrongs "righted". 8. "They supported the IRA, PIRA in the struggle. Now they support the ballot box and peace." Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't the IRA, that's the "Official" IRA outlawed in 1921 by the Government of Eire? Didn't they fight a "civil war" about that time that the "Official" IRA lost, a civil war in which many, many more Irishmen, women and children died than were ever killed in the nine months period in which the "Black and Tans" were deployed. And yet you say that the people supported the "Official" IRA – I somehow don't think so, some maybe, but that does not equate to all or even a majority. In more recent times when were "those same people" given the opportunity to voice their support of the "Provisional" IRA? Or was this support only sort of taken as being read, on account of, if you voice any objection you'll find yourself nailed to the floor by your knee-caps. Had "those same people" actually supported the "Official" IRA in the early 1970's, there would be 3500 people still alive today and 36,000 who would not have been injured. Now they support the ballot box and peace, you say. I think that as a whole the majority of the population of Northern Ireland always did. Mark you around Craigavon the ones who kicked over the flowers and candles left marking the spot where Constable Stephen Carroll was murdered might have a different take on things. But taking everything at face value, if as you say the majority have moved from support of an armed struggle to a political struggle, then it is high time that they proved it. Like the killers of Robert MacCartney and Paul Quinn, the membership of the "Real" IRA and "Continuity" IRA are known to SinnFein/PIRA/IRA. If they are indeed committed to peace then the murders should be surrendered to face the courts. |
|
13 Mar 09 - 11:23 AM (#2588009) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Ireland I take it the peace movement did not happen, all those people protesting for an end to violence in 1976 with the same message in 2009 silent protests. Yes very poignant question indeed K Of H. was the IRA having the true support of those people who attended the rallies. |
|
13 Mar 09 - 12:04 PM (#2588059) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: GUEST,AR 1976 the year the "peace People" came on the scene is recorded as the third highest operational year of the war. Teribus,who was charged with the killings of "Robert MacCartney and Paul Quinn" name them please, as far as I know no soldier is serving time for either killing. Again, your arse doing the talking. |
|
13 Mar 09 - 12:09 PM (#2588066) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Keith A of Hertford Al, PIRA said it was their men that killed Robert Macartney. They even offered to shoot them. Hope that clears that one up. |
|
13 Mar 09 - 12:24 PM (#2588079) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Ireland One of the most serious incidents has too many shades of the past for us all: the brutal murder of Paul Quinn. It resulted from a dispute between Paul and a son of Vincent Traynor, a local IRA chief. Paul Quinn and some other youths from the area were involved in activities that did not go down well with the senior republican leadership in South Armagh, especially as this new breed of republicans is defying the leadership. It is now quite clear that Vincent had oversold the case against Paul." link to slugger O'Toole http://sluggerotoole.com/index.php/weblog/comments/we-cannot-allow-this-to-be-brushed-under-the-carpet/ |
|
13 Mar 09 - 12:28 PM (#2588083) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: GUEST,AR I repeat, no one connected to the IRA has been convicted with either killing. |
|
13 Mar 09 - 12:36 PM (#2588087) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Ireland Would you think the army council would know and if they have a real mandate and are a legitimate army,why have they not admitted the killings. Do you know who killed them? |
|
13 Mar 09 - 12:43 PM (#2588091) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: GUEST,AR I haven't a clue, how would I know, do you ? ask Keith, he seems to have all the facts and figures at hand, ask him about British army murders of children in the North of Ireland since he is again at his history book. |
|
13 Mar 09 - 12:57 PM (#2588105) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Keith A of Hertford It is 24 hours since I made this short post; "If only the will of the people can prevail this time, because they did not support PIRA before. They always supported the ballot box. It was Sinn Fein that changed, leaving the dissidents behind, and not the people." In reply I had many long posts containing screenfulls of outrage. You made an issue out of what I thought was a minor point. In all that tirade, no one managed to put up anything showing I was wrong. Peter K came close with, "They had democratic legitimacy from the hunger strike onwards" It was true that Bobby sands captured the Nationalist vote in his local election, but PIRA had first to make sure that the poor Nationalist voters had not a single non paramiltary candidate to vote for. For the rest of the 80s and 90s, the staunchly anti-PIRA SDLP trounced Sinn Fein for the Nationalist vote at every election. Hard evidence. In 1976 tens of thousands of Nationalists demonstrated in Belfast for an end to the armed struggle. Hard evidence. Consider also the Republican group, Belfast Citizen's Defence Committee. They had 50,000 people sign a "call for peace", and hoped that the Provisionals would respect the wishes of the people and stop bombing and shooting. Hard Evidence. As I said, I had no intention of making an issue of this. Blame yourselves. |
|
13 Mar 09 - 01:14 PM (#2588112) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Ireland "I haven't a clue, how would I know, do you ? ask Keith, he seems to have all the facts and figures at hand, ask him about British army murders of children in the North of Ireland since he is again at his history book." What is it your pissed off with him for, he did not take your side or that he asks questions that make you think. How many children were left orphans by the group that killed the most Catholics than the B.A. RUC and the loyalist groups put together, need a clue. You make such a point and an obvious reply would be how many did the IRA murder or do you want a blinkered yes sir answer, do no look toward K of H then. Rest assured his history will not be biased. |
|
13 Mar 09 - 01:17 PM (#2588117) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Teribus In response to GUEST,AR "I could see your point if you'd been a serving squaddie over there or lost friends in Ireland, correct me if I got this wrong, but you were a part time soldier in the TA and never saw any kind of service deployment ?" How do you know that he didn't Guest Al?? I don't know where you call home, but talking as you do about Northern Ireland and "The Troubles" you must know that the bombing campaigns of the "Provisional" IRA and the INLA did not just restrict themselves to targets in Northern Ireland, and they most certainly did not restrict their targets to regular Army units – TRUE?? "….you start threads about peace in Ireland or Irish rebels and welt the back of the Irish for standing against masters who arrived over there from Britain." Shows how much you know about the history of Ireland or of the British Isles. I mean really: • "I will gladly admit to understanding the actions of the Irish and their right to deal with the invader." & • The Irish people will always be grateful to the American nation for their support through the tough times, they delivered and it will never be forgotten. Guest AR without any shadow of a doubt you are the Ernest Hemmingway of Bullshit. " if the German army had landed on my shore during the 1939-45 war my old man would have cut the crap out of them any way he could." Irrelevant, you are comparing "Apples to Oranges". Ireland as a united country only came into being under British rule, prior to that no such "country" or "nation" existed. What you did have were a number of small kingdoms who were never "unified" or fully at peace with one another. The "English" or more correctly the Normans have been in Ireland since 1172, that's 837 years Guest Al, hardly "Johnny-come-lately's" by any stretch of the imagination. Invading German Armies did not afford the inhabitants of the countries they occupied the option of voting on anything. "So Keith, were the Irish wrong not to roll over and take what we did to them? There was a government in Northern Ireland in the 1950's which treated Irish catholic's like slaves and second grade." Keith said something very true and yourself and Big Mick should take heed of it: "Stating falsehoods as truths does not take us forward." Now tell us exactly what it was that "WE" did to them. Who is the "WE" and "WHEN"? I personally have not done anything to them, might have played a small part in stopping some of them being killed or maimed but I see no reason to apologise for that. Oh yes Guest Al, I did spend some time over there "on the ground", two tours, unlike Big Mick. That "government in Northern Ireland in the 1950's" that you refer to, was formed by who? If memory serves me correctly from around 1922 Northern Ireland was completely autonomous it had "Home Rule". So I'll ask you again what did "WE", as in us "Brits", do to them and "WHEN". That Government based at Stormont was an absolute joke and a complete and utter embarrassment. But as Keith, I think, pointed out The Civil Rights Movement and the SDLP were making them look increasingly ridiculous, and this was acknowledged by the "Official" IRA at the time, who saw the possibilities of real advancement through peaceful means. "Come on man, be honest, if you knew the south coast was covered in landing craft and your town hall had been taken over you would be one of the first to "tip and run" against their rule." You mean today – absolutely, I'd be there like a rocket. If you mean 900 years ago – forget it, after that amount of time, who the f**k cares. Mind you if you are absolutely set on causing trouble and want to blow folks up you could always invoke Big Mick's "righting ancient wrongs" crap. Personally I'm not all that keen on killing people on such flimsy and questionable premises. Besides when did the "British" ever invade Ireland Guest Al?? That charge might arguably be leveled against England, but not against the "British". And that English "invasion" if indeed it was one was pretty half-hearted. Things picked up a pace when James I and VI decided to settled his problems on the Anglo-Scottish border by shifting the riding families to Northern Ireland – Not an invasion as the King of England had been declared King of Ireland from 1541 – you can't invade your own Kingdom. Al, ever wonder why England got interested in Ireland in the first place? If you ever want to find out read a book call "Sovereign of the Seas" by a Canadian Naval Historian called N.A.M.Roger. It is an excellent book which deals with an overall European view of things and not just with individual counties in isolation and should be compulsory reading for anyone teaching the history of the British Isles. |
|
13 Mar 09 - 01:46 PM (#2588139) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: GUEST,AR Haha teripus, don't get sore at me just because Big Mick made a little boy out of you ! |
|
13 Mar 09 - 02:05 PM (#2588147) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: meself Again: "I realize this is a controversial subject. I request that it be discussed in a civil manner. ... and civil behavior is expected of everyone." "-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-" |
|
13 Mar 09 - 02:44 PM (#2588173) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Teribus Oh you mean like: "The real motives of these people are to justify their country's wrong headed and discriminatory policies in the North." – Big Mick Well there you go, "their country's wrong headed and discriminatory policies in the North", care to tell us exactly what policies they might be considering that from 1922 until 1972 the Province had its own devolved Government, which during that time set their own policies. In 1972 that devolved government was first suspended then abolished in favour of direct rule from Westminster until the Northern Ireland Assembly was established in 1999. During that time (1972 to 1999) the problems indentified with the previous devolved government and reforms suggested in consultation with the various political parties in Northern Ireland were introduced in order to reach the point we are at today. "I believe firmly (for all the political and historical reasons) in a united Ireland." - BM Care to tell us when Ireland was ever politically or historically a united nation before the English and then latterly the British arrived on the scene Big Mick? "But I support the process that is going on, primarily because it is supported by the people who live there. But I will not be an apologist for what has gone before. This is an old struggle, and it is a righteous struggle. And now it is taking a new path." - BM This is an old struggle says Mick, too true. Let's see who we had fanning the flames down through the ages: • Spain in the 16th Century; • France & Spain backing Stuarts in the 17th Century; • France in the 18th Century; • Emigré Irish Americans in the 19th Century; • Germans and Plastic Paddys from America in the 20th Century. I somehow get the impression that if they hadn't bothered things might have turned out a damn sight better for everybody. Up until the 20th Century Big Mick, down through 500 years the "people" of Ireland didn't even enter the equation, they had SFA to say in the matter. The wars and rebellions were instigated by the disaffected aristocracy of Ireland who bloody well told their tenants who was fight who, when and why. If they don't like it, or were not prepared to take part, they died or got turfed out. Nor were they fighting for Ireland's "freedom", in the case of O'Neill in the 16th Century he was going to turn over Ireland to Spain as a colony with him rewarded as Spain's Viceroy. "Were he able to, he would understand that I support the peoples of the North and what they are trying to accomplish. But I do so with not a whit of apology for what went before, and which carried us to this moment. But as I said, the people of the North of Ireland have spoken and they have chosen a new path." - BM Referendum tomorrow Big Mick and the population of Northern Ireland states that they wish to remain within the United Kingdom – Any more legitimate struggle after that? – Any more ancient wrongs to be righted? – Or will you and the rest of the outside observers over there in Boston accept the choice of the people who live in Northern Ireland and butt out of something that has got absolutely dam all to do with you. |
|
13 Mar 09 - 02:49 PM (#2588176) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Den Its funny how are pro-British posters never mention the most pivotal moment in the history of the troubles that was Bloody Sunday. The murder of innocents on that day changed the peace movement forever. Who in their right mind would not think twice in marching for peace at the risk of being shot to death. Prior to that day the PIRA had little or no support. Bloody Sunday was the greatest recruitment strategy the PIRA could ever have wished for. I have heard Bloody Sunday being described as, "heavy handed." It doesn't matter how you package it, murder is murder. It was a blatant attempt by the British to make Paddy lie down. It didn't work. And now some 37 years later no one has been charged for those murders either. |
|
13 Mar 09 - 03:01 PM (#2588184) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: GUEST,AR Teribus, please please don't talk as if British hands are clean in the North of Ireland. The world knows of your antics. Again, please stop the anal chat please. |
|
13 Mar 09 - 03:28 PM (#2588204) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Teribus GuestAR - I don't believe that I have. What I have done is counter claims by yourself and Big Mick that lay all fault at the feet of the UK Government. Den - As far as "Bloody Sunday" goes I'll wait for the report. As far as references to "murder of innocents" and utilisation of phrases such as "It doesn't matter how you package it, murder is murder." Let me answer the question posed in the title of this thread: "True IRA?? Who are they?" The "true" IRA are the people who were responsible for the abduction, torture and murder of Mrs Jean McConville, an innocent if ever there was one. The "true" IRA are the people responsible for terrorising Northern Ireland for 40 years now, primarily targeting innocent civilians, any doubts? Let's talk about "Bloody Friday". The "true" IRA have had many prefixes "Official", "Provisional", "Real" and "Continuity" all anybody has to realise is that irrespective of name they are all butchers. Oh a question for GuestAR, Big Mick and you Den: "Give me one example of one IRA man who has given his life saving the life of an innocent civilian in Northern Ireland" Note: Bombers getting blown up while assembling their bombs, or who get blown up while transporting their bombs to their targets don't count. |
|
13 Mar 09 - 03:29 PM (#2588205) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Keith A of Hertford Den, sorry can not give link, but check my post to you on 12 May 05 - 03:05 . |
|
13 Mar 09 - 03:49 PM (#2588216) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Den I was quoting the city's coroner, retired British Army Major Hubert O'Neill, from his statement on 21 August 1973, at the completion of the inquest into the people killed. He publicly stated: "This Sunday became known as Bloody Sunday and bloody it was. It was quite unnecessary. It strikes me that the Army ran amok that day and shot without thinking what they were doing. They were shooting innocent people. These people may have been taking part in a march that was banned but that does not justify the troops coming in and firing live rounds indiscriminately. I would say without hesitation that it was sheer, unadulterated murder. It was murder." Pretty informed opinion I'd say. You might be waiting for the report for a very long time. Maybe there waiting until all involved in murder are no longer around to be brought to justice. I have stated before on many occasions that I abhor all murder of innocents. It doesn't matter which side commits it. |
|
13 Mar 09 - 03:52 PM (#2588219) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: GUEST,AR Thanks Teribus, I will willingly accept your defeat, not easy for you to admit it, but thank you all the same. Just a pity you wouldn't strecth it to giving honour to the great men of Irish republicanism, but I see your coming around. Also I admire you for admitting British soldiers did murder innocent Irish children, you have surprised me tonight. Best wishes Al R. |
|
13 Mar 09 - 04:11 PM (#2588239) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Big Mick I have been through this so many times, and I am not going to do it again beyond the obvious. TB should change his name to "Obfuscation 'r Us". He begins all tirades at a moment in time that suits his arguments, builds a premise that is either false, or out of context, and then crafts an argument that looks absolutely brilliant. And, as Al has pointed out, absolutely refuses to accept any criticisms of his country's policies, or any blame for the same. But one thing is clear to any observer that is willing to take the long view, and who craves justice and peace. That thing is that the English, during their colonial expansion, and conquest, decided to come to a land, subjugate its people, take their property, strip it of all resources and livestock, dispossess them of ancient lands and give it to others, and discriminate against them for centuries. They played the "Orange Card" and effectively used it right up until very recent times to maintain their hold on the industrial north. Their security forces used a shoot to kill without cause policy, provided intelligence to the loyalist terror groups, imprisoned people without cause, and did all they could to wipe out the Irish culture. They stood by and watched school kids be mobbed and scared out of their wits. TB, there are many things done on both sides of this struggle that people should be ashamed of. I know this from my own experiences with conflict, and if you were half the warrior you imply you are, you would admit that is the way of armed conflict. So when one only engages in finger pointing, it is very easy to find atrocities. But the brilliance of the processes like the South African Truth Commissions, is that folks could look at each other and acknowledge what was wrong, and then move on. In the North of Ireland, that is happening primarily on only one side of the equation. Had you stepped up and simply acknowledged what is so, and expressed a hope for a peaceful future, and a self determination, for the children, and all people, of the North, I could give you grudging respect. But as far as I can see you are not worthy of that. If you cannot acknowledge what the world knows, which is that the policies of the Crown and governments of Great Britain, lie at the root of all this, then you will continue in my mind to be not worth spending anymore time with. And I shall not. Your time has come and gone. Mick |
|
13 Mar 09 - 04:16 PM (#2588243) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: skarpi eh !! How many PALMTREES do you have ?? I have three short ones and one coconut :>)) in this thread I have knowledge for the rest of the year thanks all . Iceman |
|
13 Mar 09 - 04:40 PM (#2588271) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: GUEST,keith detail.cfm?messages__Message_ID=1483520 There you are Den |
|
13 Mar 09 - 04:50 PM (#2588285) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Teribus A GuestAR start taking more water with it, it is obviously affecting your eyesight. Big Mick: "He begins all tirades at a moment in time that suits his arguments, builds a premise that is either false, or out of context, and then crafts an argument that looks absolutely brilliant." What moment in time have I selected to suit my purpose Mick? What false premise? So far you have not refuted a single thing that I have said. Nor have you answered a single question put to you. But there again I didn't get my information sitting over in America talking to immigrant Irish Republicans and their descendents. "That thing is that the English, during their colonial expansion, and conquest, decided to come to a land, subjugate its people, take their property, strip it of all resources and livestock, dispossess them of ancient lands and give it to others" – BM What English colonial expansion are you referring to Mick - America? Maybe you should have put that post to music – it would be about as factually and historically accurate as "Back Home In Derry" or "Fields Of Athenry" – both complete and utter fairytales. "So when one only engages in finger pointing, it is very easy to find atrocities." You mean as you have been doing from your first post to this thread. "there are many things done on both sides of this struggle that people should be ashamed of. I know this from my own experiences with conflict," The only thing wrong with that Big Mick is that you don't have any experiences of this conflict. "the policies of the Crown and governments of Great Britain, lie at the root of all this," Bullshit it was not the policies of the Crown and Governments of Great Britain that opted to use the gun and bomb and in so doing cause the deaths, directly and indirectly, of 3600 people and further maim 36,000 others, the vast majority of them being the very people they were telling the world that they were "protecting". And now the very same people who took that decision have the nerve to describe as "wrong minded" former "comrades" who have done exactly what they themselves did 40 years ago that Big Mick is simply rank hypocrisy. |
|
13 Mar 09 - 05:09 PM (#2588303) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: GUEST,AR Well said Big Mick, that's him boxed in, no way out. Christ help him, it's a pity really. Why does he go on silly rants ? |
|
13 Mar 09 - 07:28 PM (#2588410) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Ireland No harm to any of you posters but do you honestly think what your posts translate to for us in N.I.? We have people who get their Irishness from books films and the biased views of story tellers which may or may not be pro Irish or for want of a better word pro unionists. Be sure of one thing idiots have stuck their nose in our land\history and it is us that pays the price,stop using N.Ireland/Ireland as a football in the game of how much I know. Ireland is too complex to discuss the complete issues here, this bull that it was ever a united Island shows an ignorance that has caused lives to day hundreds of years later. Here is the real problem, we have peace three people are murdered and that peace was shaken, now we have idiots giving succor to the very gunmen who murdered and maimed on our streets and who pays the price, us poor buggers in N.Ireland. And guess what we have to read how such and such does not apologise for the actions of terrorists who they have given their moral support to but never stood in front of the aftermath of shootings or bombings. Try watching the blood of complete strangers run down the drains, they now have one thing in common,they were murdered by the very people who their supporters do not apologise for. And what do we get, some person asking how many children the British armed forces murdered and ignore that the terrorists they supported murdered more people than all the rest put together and have no apologies for that, wow thanks very much I noticed no-one spoke of peace, easy to throw lives away especially if they are not your own. And were do these people get the experience to hold such views not living here not lifting pieces of mince off the streets of Ireland that turn out to be the last remains of a human being,not having to wash the blood of friends off the streets, they get it through books and accounts from those who would carryout those actions. This is all based on the fallacy that terrorists had full support, they never did as the dissidents are getting support from people in Drumbeg Craigavon today the PIRA got it in the past through shear fear. But guess what has not got through to some,violence does not work,and we have people who do not apologise for using that violence how pathetic, to them peace is a threat. Now we have a society were both sides can hold their head high the immediate need for the utopia of a United Ireland is not as prevalent and that threatens the nat\rep cause. Many people Catholic and Protestant are happy with their lot. Why should we have it spoiled by outsiders who frankly really know little about us. |
|
13 Mar 09 - 07:34 PM (#2588418) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Ireland BTW GUEST,AR where about in Ireland do you live? |
|
13 Mar 09 - 07:38 PM (#2588420) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: The Sandman 100 |
|
13 Mar 09 - 07:51 PM (#2588428) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: MartinRyan only 700 more to go... Regards |
|
13 Mar 09 - 08:05 PM (#2588440) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: GUEST,AR Firstly you are a shame on the country using the handle that you do, I could suggest a few for you, but I am too much of a gentleman. Please don't speak on my behalf, please don't consider yourself the voice of the North of Ireland on this site. Please do not use the word "terrorist" when referring to my posts. Regarding you comments about your "British" friends, do they know your background ? are they aware you are from a nationalist background ? Are you aware your friend Keith had a post removed because the site modarator caught him through his IP address posting under the name of another person who was posting on a thread ? A bit sly don't you think. If there is one thing I cannot stand, it's a crawler. Someone prepared to sell out their soul to a master. You fit well into this little box. Members and guest posters don't seem to be responding to your tearful posts, full of rue and sorrow, besides the duo that frankly don't show you much respect. I don't know where you stand, simply because you don't seem to know yourself. Where do I stand ? in full respect of every Irish volunteer who answered the call throughout the centuries against British rule in Ireland.I do NOT include those that "took the soup". A hero, each and every one of of them. You seem to think you speak for the pro British Stormont nationalists and so called republicans. Well reading some of the sh 1 t you wrote you probably would fit right in among them. Someone asked what changed "so called" once republicans. Why did they enter a British assembly and become British ministers ? They did so out of sheer greed for their ass pocket. Yes 40 pieces of silver did the trick. Each and every one of that front line of goons in British Sinn Fein once yelled into the faces of British ministers to get out of Ireland. So my nationalist friend, show a little more respect for those proud brave volunteers of the Irish nation. Did you note, I never received an answer regarding the murderous antics of British soldiers in the North of I reland ? well who needs it, the world knows it ! |
|
13 Mar 09 - 09:21 PM (#2588477) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Ireland Not that I feel I have to justify my self to you in any way as far as my name,it is my grandmothers maiden name. Man you do talk some poop and the conclusions you are jumping to show you have not one clue, you are harmless really, my fault for taking you serious in the first place. How many children were killed: 1970 first recorded deaths 26 Jun Bernadette McCool 9 Catholic Killed by Irish Republican Army Died in premature explosion of incendiary device at her home Dunree Gardens, Creggan Derry 26 Jun Carol Ann McCool 4 Catholic killed by Irish Republican Army Died in premature explosion of incendiary device at her home Dunree Gardens, Creggan Derry. Did they want to be volunteers? Read the rest http://www.childrenofireland.us/childrenkilled.htm and let the fact that what they have in common is some idiots like you trying to justify some of their deaths,how sad. I wonder how grateful these two nationalists are? Not that the deaths were bad enough we have those who do not apologise for their actions, how convenient.What amazes me is the perpetuation of lies and the perfect example was the murder of 14 yr old Kathleen Feeney by the IRA who used her death as propaganda to incite hatred among the ignorant,most of those like you, never set foot in N.Ireland.. The IRA later murdered a soldier for the killing of this child knowing full well they were the perpetrators. How many rep authors really know all the fact? read for yourself. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article537036.ece but sure never let the truth get in the way of a good prejudice. What k Of H has above you is his accountability here he does not post under guest and recognising his general good contributions to this forum far outweighs anything you put out. Dissident supporter from a foreign country stirring the pot in my country and you call others out on their faults.When would you have got the message violence would not work? when the last of the Irish had to be buried by the like of you. Thanks but no thanks we all can do without your help if you do not mind. |
|
13 Mar 09 - 10:02 PM (#2588493) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: GUEST,AR Before you go to sleep tonight Ireland,run your eyes over this lot. It's time the world saw the full truth of the murders in the North of Ireland by British soldiers and British so- called policemen. They were paid to keep the peace. This is what they did. And you ask why Irish republicans stand up against British rule ? Irish Republican Volunteers, we honour and respect your worthy fight. THE BRITISH LIST OF SHAME. Robert Anderson 25 years, Mourne View Park, Newry, shot dead along with Sean Ruddy and Thomas James McLaughlin by British soldiers in Newry, Co. Down, on 24 October 1971. The soldiers were on the roof of a building overlooking a bank and shot the three men as they attempted to rob the bank. Declan Arthurs 21 years, Cappagh, Co. Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers at RUC Loughgall Barracks, County Armagh, on 8 May 1987. Seven other IRA activists were also killed; Seamus Donnelly (19), Michael Gormley (25), Eugene Kelly (25), Patrick Kelly (30), James Lynagh (31), Padraig McKearney (32), and Gerard O'Callaghan (29). Anthony Hughes (36), a civilian was also shot dead and his brother seriously injured when they drove their car into the firing zone. Daniel Barrett 15years, Havana Court, Ardoyne, north Belfast, shot dead sitting on the garden wall of his home on 9 July 1981, by members of the British army's Welsh Guards. Antoine MacGiolla Bhrighde 27 years, IRA activist, from County Derry, shot dead by undercover British soldiers at Kesh, County Fermanagh, on 2 December 1984. John Boyle 16 years, shot dead in a graveyard near his home, at Dunloy, County Antrim, by members of an undercover British army unit on 11 July 1978. Eamonn Bradley 23 years, Derry City, an IRA activist, he was unarmed when he was shot dead by British soldiers on 25 August 1982. He was coming out of bar in the Shantallow area of the city. Francis Bradley 20 years, Toome, County Antrim, shot dead by undercover British soldiers crossing a field at the back of a farmhouse outside Toome on 18 February 1986. Seamus Bradley 19 years, Creggan, Derry city, shot and fatally wounded by British soldiers in the Creggan area early on 31 July 1972. He died a short time later. The shooting occurred during 'Operation Motorman,' a British military plan to saturate and take over nationalist areas of the North from which they had been more or less excluded since the Bloody Sunday shootings in January 1972. Charles Breslin 20 years, Strabane, Co. Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead along with Michael Devine (22) and his brother David Devine (17) by undercover British soldiers, on 23 February 1985. The shootings occurred in the early hours of the morning as the three men were returning to an arms dump. The undercover soldiers were aware of the arms dump after being tipped off by an informer. Denis Brown 28 years, Ardoyne, north Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead along with two other IRA activists, William Mealy (30) and James Mulvenna (28), by undercover British soldiers on 20 June 1978. The three men were killed in an ambush as they approached a post office vehicle depot in north Belfast. William Hanna (28), who drove into the fire zone, was also shot and killed by the soldiers. James Brown 18 years, Creggan, Derry City, killed along with James English (19) when British soldiers deliberately drove their armoured vehicle into a crowd of people in Derry on 19 April 1981. James Bryson 25 years, Ballymurphy, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot and fatally wounded by undercover British soldiers in Ballymurphy on 31 August 1973. He died in hospital on 22 September 1973. Patrick Mulvenna (19), also an IRA activist was shot dead in the same incident. Both men were getting out of a car when they were shot. Sean Burns 21 years, Lurgan, County Armagh, an IRA activist, he was shot dead in a car by an undercover RUC unit outside Lurgan on 11 November 1982. Two other IRA activists, Eugene Toman (21) and Gervase McKerr (31), were also killed in the shooting. The three men were travelling in the car outside Lurgan when the shooting occurred. Brian Campbell 19 years, Coalisland, County Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead along with Colm McGirr (23) by undercover British soldiers on 4 December 1983. The shooting occurred just outside Coalisland as both men approached an IRA arms dump. Joseph Campbell 17years, Havana Street Ardoyne, North Belfast, when he was shot dead in Ardoyne on 11 June 1972 by members of the British Army's Royal Regiment of Wales. Teddy Campbell 57 years, from the Markets area of Belfast. A Republican political prisoner sentenced for possession of weapons in 1972, he suffered several severe beatings in Long Kesh jail. As a result of the beatings and subsequent long-term neglect he was released from prison in poor health. His death on 3 May 1974 in Musgrave Hospital his relatives believe was due to mistreatment by the authorities. Tony Campbell 19 years, New Lodge Road, north Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers along with Ambrose Hardy (26), Brendan Maguire (33) and James Loughran (35) on the New Lodge Road on 3 February 1973. The latter three men were all civilians. They were all shot by soldiers from an observation post on top of high-rise flats. The British army shooting followed a drive by shooting by unionist/loyalist paramilitaries only moments earlier and only yards away. Three people died in that shooting; James Fusco (58), James Sloan (19) and James McCann (18). Stan Carberry 34 years, Andersonstown, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers as he travelled in a car along the Falls Road, near Beechmount, on 13 November 1972. Rodney Carroll 22 years, Armagh City, County Armagh, an INLA activist, he was shot dead by an undercover RUC unit along with Seamus Grew (31), on 12 December 1982. Both men were in a car that was chased by the RUC unit, who opened fire on the men after it was forced to a halt. James (Jimmy) Casey 57 years, Derry City, shot and fatally wounded by British soldiers on 24 July 1972. Mr Casey was in a car with three others returning home from a night out at Greencastle, County Donegal, when their vehicle was fired at by British soldiers in an observation post. Peter Clancy 19 years, Coalisland, County Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers in the car park of a Catholic church outside Coalisland on 16 February 1992. Three other IRA activists, Sean O'Farrell (23), Kevin O'Donnell and Daniel Vincent (20) were also shot dead in the same incident. The four young men were involved in an attack on Coalisland RUC barracks, and afterwards retreated to the church car park where a large unit of undercover soldiers were waiting for them. Peter Cleary 25 years, County Armagh, an IRA activist, he was arrested, beaten and shot dead by undercover British soldiers while visiting his girl friend near Forkhill, south Armagh, on 15 April 1976. Kevin Coen 28 years, Sligo town, County Sligo, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers operating in unmarked cars near the Fermanagh/Cavan border on 10 January 1975. Joan Connolly 50 years, Ballymurphy, west Belfast, shot dead near her home by British soldiers on 9 August 1971. Three other people were also shot and killed by the soldiers in the same incident; Daniel Taggart (44), Noel Philips, and Joseph Murphy (41), who died from his wounds on 22 August 1971. The British soldiers were firing from observation posts overlooking the Ballymurphy area. Michael Connors 13 years, and John Maughan 19 years, both shot dead in Church Lane, near Belfast City centre, on 1 March 1972, by members of a joint British army and Royal Ulster Constabulary patrol. Michael Connors and John Maughan were both members of Ireland's travelling community and were living at a site in the Belfast area at the time of their deaths. Joseph Cunningham 26 years, Rathcoole, north Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by the RUC on the outskirts of north Belfast on 10 February 1972. Seamus Cusack 27 years, Bogside, Derry City, shot and fatally wounded by British soldiers in the Bogside area during street disturbances. He died shortly after he was admitted into Letterkenny Hospital. Manus Deery 15 years, Limewood Street, Derry City, shot dead 20 May 1972 by members of the British Army firing from the city walls. John Dempsey 16 years, Turf Lodge, west Belfast, shot dead on 8 July 1981, by members of the British army. Sammy Devenney 42 years, Bogside, Derry City, badly beaten by a number of RUC members who entered his home on 19 April 1969. He died from his injuries on 16 July 1971. Several members of Mr Devenney's family, including his children, where also beaten in the attack. David Devine 17 years, Strabane, Co. Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead along with his brother Michael Devine (22) and Charles Breslin (20) by undercover British soldiers, on 23 February 1985. The shootings occurred in the early hours of the morning as the three men were returning to an arms dump. The undercover soldiers were aware of the arms dump after being tipped off by an informer. Michael Devine 22 years, Strabane, Co. Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead along with his brother David Devine (17) and Charles Breslin (20) by undercover British soldiers, on 23 February 1985. The shootings occurred in the early hours of the morning as the three men were returning to an arms dump. The undercover soldiers were aware of the arms dump after being tipped off by an informer. Francis Dodds 32 years, Locan Street, Beechmount, Belfast. A republican political prisoner he suffered several severe beatings in Long Kesh prison while on remand there in September 1972. Sentenced to 14 years for possession of explosion in March 1973, the beatings he received left him with circulation problems in his legs. Requests to prison doctors to treat his ailments and the accompanying pain were dealt with by proscriptions of aspirin. The neglect led to his untimely death in Long Kesh on 9 September 1973. Daniel Doherty 23 years, Derry City, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers at Gransha Hospital, Derry, on 6 December 1984. Another IRA activist, William Fleming (19) was shot dead in the same incident. Patrick Doherty 31 years, Derry City, shot dead by British soldiers at an anti-internment march in Derry on 30 January 1972. In total fourteen people, including Mr Doherty were killed or fatally wounded that day, known later as Bloody Sunday. The others killed were; John Duddy (17), Kevin McElhinney (17), Bernard McGuigan (41), Hugh Gilmore (17), William Nash (19), Michael McDaid (20), John Young (17), Michael Kelly (17), James Wray (22), Gerald Donaghy (17), Gerald McKinney (35), William McKinney (26) and John Johnston (59). Gerard Donaghy 17 years, Derry City, shot dead by British soldiers at an anti-internment march in Derry on 30 January 1972. In total fourteen people, including Mr Doherty were killed or fatally wounded that day, known later as Bloody Sunday. The others killed were; John Duddy (17), Kevin McElhinney (17), Bernard McGuigan (41), Hugh Gilmore (17), William Nash (19), Michael McDaid (20), John Young (17), Michael Kelly (17), James Wray (22), Patrick Doherty (31), Gerald McKinney (35), William McKinney (26) and John Johnston (59). Michael Donnelly 21 years, Cavendish Street, Falls Road, west Belfast, struck by a plastic bullet fired by a member of the British Army's Royal Artillery Regiment. The shooting occurred at Leeson Street in the Lower Falls Road in the early morning of 9 August 1980, he died shortly afterwards. Seamus Donnelly 19 years, Cappagh, Co. Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers at RUC Loughgall Barracks, County Armagh, on 8 May 1987. Seven other IRA activists were also killed; Declan Arthurs (21), Michael Gormley (25), Eugene Kelly (25), Patrick Kelly (30), James Lynagh (31), Padraig McKearney (32), and Gerard O'Callaghan (29). Anthony Hughes (36), a civilian was also shot dead and his brother seriously injured when they drove their car into the firing zone. Tony Doris 22 years, Coalisland, County Tyrone, an IRA activist, shot dead by undercover British soldiers at Coagh, Co. Tyrone, on 3 June 1991. Mr Doris and two other IRA activists, Peter Ryan (35), and Lawrence McNally (39), were driving into Coagh when soldiers opened fire from hidden positions using heavy machine guns. John Dougal 16 years, Springhill Avenue, Ballymurphy, west Belfast, shot dead in Springhill housing estate on 9 July 1972, by members of the British Army's Parachute Regiment. A short time after John's death soldiers firing from the same positions shot dead Margaret Gargan (13), Father Noel Fitzpatrick (a Catholic priest), Patrick Butler (38) and David McCafferty (14). Several others were also serious injured. Subsequently the tragedy became know as "Springhill massacre". Joe Downey 23 years, Markets, south Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers near his home on 21 July 1972. The soldiers responsible were in observation posts in the gas works. Unionist/loyalist gunmen were also firing into the area at the time. John Duddy 17 years, Derry City, shot dead by British soldiers at an anti-internment march in Derry on 30 January 1972. In total fourteen people, including Mr Doherty were killed or fatally wounded that day, known later as Bloody Sunday. The others killed were; Gerard Donaghy (17), Kevin McElhinney (17), Bernard McGuigan (41), Hugh Gilmore (17), William Nash (19), Michael McDaid (20), John Young (17), Michael Kelly (17), James Wray (22), Patrick Doherty (31), Gerald McKinney (35), William McKinney (26) and John Johnston (59). Henry Duffy 45 years, Benevenagh Gardens, Creggan, Derry, struck by a plastic bullets fired by a member of the British Army's Royal Anglian Regiment, on the morning of 22 May 1981. He died later that day in the Royal Victoria Hospital, Belfast. Patrick Duffy 50 years, Derry City, shot dead by undercover British soldiers in an unoccupied house in the city on 24 November 1978. The soldiers had concealed themselves in the house to observe an IRA arms dump there. They shot Mr Duffy after he entered the house. Paul Duffy 23 years, Stewartstown, County Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers near a derelict farm house near Ardboe, County Tyrone, on 26 February 1978. Seamus Duffy 15 year-old, shot-dead by a plastic bullet fired from a passing RUC patrol on August 9th 1989 while returning home from an internment night bonfire in the New Lodge area of North Belfast. At the time of Seamus' killing there was no rioting. Immediately after his death the RUC said that they would appoint a 'top policeman' to investigate the exact circumstances of the death as they believed that Seamus did not die as a result of being hit by a plastic bullet. Patrick Elliot 19 years, Broadway, Falls Road, west Belfast, shot dead by British soldiers coming out of a chip shop he tried to rob on the Andersonstown Road. No firearm was found on his body. Mairead Farrell 31 years, Andersonstown, an IRA activist, she was shot dead by undercover British soldiers in Gibraltar on 6 March 1988. Daniel McCann (30) and Sean Savage (24), also IRA activists, were shot and killed during the same incident. Gerard Fennell 28 years, Twinbrook, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers at Twinbrook on 8 November 1974. The soldiers responsible were concealed in hedges over looking the Stewartstown Road and shot him as he tried to hijack a bus. Fr. Noel Fitzpatrick 40 years, a Catholic priest in Ballymurphy, west Belfast, he was shot dead by British soldiers firing from concealed positions overlooking Ballymurphy, on 9 July 1972. Fr. Fitzpatrick was praying over a wounded man when he was shot. Also killed in the Ballymurphy area that day by British army snipers were, Patrick Butler (39), Margaret Gargan (13), John Dougal (16) and David McCafferty (14). William Fleming 19 years, Derry City, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers at Gransha Hospital, Derry, on 6 December 1984. Another IRA activist, Daniel Doherty (23) was shot dead in the same incident. Martin Forsythe 19 years, Turf Lodge, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover RUC officers in Belfast city centre on 24 October 1971. Bernard Fox 16 years, from Etna Drive, Ardoyne, North Belfast, he was shot dead on 4 December 1972, by members of the British Army's Light Infantry Regiment. Thomas Friel 21 years, Creggan Heights, Derry City, hit by a rubber bullet near his home late on the evening of 17 May 1973. He died in hospital on 22 May 1973. Members of the British Army's Royal Artillery Regiment carried out the shooting. James (Jim) Gallagher 20 years, Derry City, shot dead sitting in a bus by a British soldier as it passed an Army barrack in Derry on 17 May 1976. The soldier was in an observation post and shot Mr Gallagher as he sat upstairs at the back of the bus. Margaret Gargan 13 years, Ballymurphy, west Belfast, she was shot dead by British soldiers firing from concealed positions overlooking Ballymurphy, on 9 July 1972. Also killed in the Ballymurphy area that day by British army snipers were, Patrick Butler (39), Fr. Noel Fitzpatrick (40), John Dougal (16) and David McCafferty (14). Stephen Geddis 10 years, St. Comgall's Row, Divis Flats, Falls Road, west Belfast, struck on the head by a plastic-bullet on 28 August 1975, fired by a member of the British army's Royal Anglian Regiment. The child died in hospital 2 days later on 30 August. Gerard Gibson 16 years, Norglen Parade, Turf Lodge, West Belfast, shot dead on 11 July 1972, by members of the British Army's Royal Green Jackets. Hugh Gilmore 17 years, Derry City, shot dead by British soldiers at an anti-internment march in Derry on 30 January 1972. In total fourteen people, including Mr Doherty were killed or fatally wounded that day, known later as Bloody Sunday. The others killed were; Gerard Donaghy (17), Kevin McElhinney (17), Bernard McGuigan (41), John Duddy (17), William Nash (19), Michael McDaid (20), John Young (17), Michael Kelly (17), James Wray (22), Patrick Doherty (31), Gerald McKinney (35), William McKinney (26) and John Johnston (59). Michael Anthony Gormley 25 years, Co. Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers at RUC Loughgall Barracks, County Armagh, on 8 May 1987. Seven other IRA activists were also killed; Declan Arthurs (21), Seamus Donnelly (19), Eugene Kelly (25), Patrick Kelly (30), James Lynagh (31), Padraig McKearney (32), and Gerard O'Callaghan (29). Anthony Hughes (36), a civilian was also shot dead and his brother seriously injured when they drove their car into the firing zone. Tony Gough 24 years, Shantallow, Derry City, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in the city on 22 February 1986. Seamus Grew 31 years, Armagh City, County Armagh, an INLA activist, he was shot dead by an undercover RUC unit along with Rodney Carroll (22), on 12 December 1982. Both men were in a car that was chased by the RUC unit, who opened fire on the men after it was forced to a halt. Edward Hale 25 years, Twinbrook, west Belfast, shot dead by undercover soldiers during a robbery of a bookmakers on the Falls Road, on 13 January 1990. The soldiers also killed two other men, Peter Thompson (23) and John McNeill (43). The undercover soldiers were apparently aware of the robbery well in advance and waited for them to emerge from the building before they carried out the shooting. None of the men were armed. William Hanna 28, Ballysillan, north Belfast, shot dead by undercover British soldiers on 20 June 1978. Mr Hanna was driving home when he drove into an ambush set up by the soldiers at Ballysillan Post Office Depot. Three IRA activists were killed in the same firing. They were Denis Brown 28 years, William Mealy (30) and James Mulvenna (28), all from Ardoyne. Ambrose Hardy 26 years, New Lodge Road, north Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers along with Tony Campbell (19), Brendan Maguire (33) and James Loughran (35) on the New Lodge Road on 3 February 1973. The latter three men were all civilians. They were all shot by soldiers from an observation post on top of high-rise flats. Gerard Harte 29 years, Carrickmore area, Co Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers at Drumnakilly, County Tyrone, on 30 August 1988. His brother Martin Harte (21) and Brian Mullin (26), both IRA activists, were also killed in the shooting. The three men were in a car when soldiers, using heavy machine guns, fired on it. Martin Harte 21years, Carrickmore area, Co Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers at Drumnakilly, County Tyrone, on 30 August 1988. His brother Gerard Harte (29) and Brian Mullin (26), both IRA activists, were also killed in the shooting. The three men were in a car when soldiers, using heavy machine guns, fired on it. Seamus Harvey 20 years, Drumuckavall, south Armagh, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers on 16 January 1977. Mr Harvey and several others were examining an abandoned car outside Crossmaglen when British soldiers concealed in surrounding fields opened fire on them. Michael Hayes 27 years, Spamount Street, New Lodge Road, north Belfast, shot dead by British soldiers near his home on 1 October 1973. Mr Hayes had been out with friends on the evening of 30 September and was making his way home afterwards when he was shot. Desmond Healey 14 years, Lenadoon, West Belfast, shot on 9 August 1971, in Lenadoon by members of the British Army's Parachute Regiment. Denis Heaney 21 years, Derry City, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by an undercover soldier in Derry, on 10 June 1978. The soldier was in an unmarked car that Mr Heaney another man had tried to hijack. Both were unaware of the soldier's identity when they approached the car. Daniel Hegarty 15years, from Swilly Gardens, Creggan, Derry City, when he was shot dead on 31 July 1972 by members of the British Army's Royal Scottish Guards, in Creggan Heights. John Hemsworth 37, on July the 7th 1997 John Hemsworth made his way home through the Clonard area of west Belfast from an evening out with friends. He was stopped and without reason immediately set upon by several RUC members. On New Year's Day John died from a brain haemorrhage. Kevin Heatley 13 years, Second Avenue, Derrybeg estate, Newry, Co. Down, shot dead on 28 February 1973, by members of the British Army's Royal Hampshire Regiment. Henry Hogan 21 years, Dunloy, County Antrim, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover soldiers following a gun battle at Dunloy on 21 February 1984. Declan Martin (18), also an IRA activist, was shot dead at the same time. Anthony Hughes 36 years, Caledon, County Armagh, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers at RUC Loughgall Barracks, County Armagh, on 8 May 1987. Mr Hughes was driving towards the barracks just as undercover British soldiers ambushed a party of IRA members. His brother was also seriously wounded in the shooting. Eight IRA activists were killed in the ambush; Michael Anthony Gormley 25 Declan Arthurs (21), Seamus Donnelly (19), Eugene Kelly (25), Patrick Kelly (30), James Lynagh (31), Padraig McKearney (32), and Gerard O'Callaghan (29). Michael Hughes 16 years, Derrybeg estate, Newry, Co. Down, was shot dead on 18th October 1974, by members of the British Army's Royal Marine Commando Regiment. Charles Irvine 16 years, Divis Flats, West Belfast, shot on 13 July 1975, in his car on the Falls Road, by members of the British Army's Scot's Guards Regiment. He died a short time later in hospital. John Johnston 59 years, Derry City, shot and fatally wounded by British soldiers at an anti-internment march in Derry on 30 January 1972. He died on 16 June 1972. In total fourteen people, including Mr Doherty were killed or fatally wounded that day, known later as Bloody Sunday. The others killed were; Gerard Donaghy (17), Kevin McElhinney (17), Bernard McGuigan (41), Hugh Gilmore (17), William Nash (19), Michael McDaid (20), John Young (17), Michael Kelly (17), James Wray (22), Patrick Doherty (31), Gerald McKinney (35), William McKinney (26) and John Duddy (17). Pearse Jordan was shot-dead by the RUC 25th November 1992 on the Falls Road Belfast. Pearse Jordan was driving alone along the Falls Road when the car in which he was travelling was rammed from behind by one of a number of RUC covert vehicles that had been following him. As he exited the car he was shot three times without warning in the back falling to the ground. Albert Kavanagh 18 years, Cavendish Street, Falls Road, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by members of the RUC after he was captured during a commercial bomb attack on 4 March 1972. The shooting took place at Boucher Road in south Belfast. Mr Kavanagh was unarmed. Colm Keenan 19 years, Derry city, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in the Bogside area of the city on 14 March 1972. Eugene McGrillan (18), also an IRA activist, was shot dead around the same time. Their deaths followed a British army raid into the Bogside late in the evening. A gun battle ensued between IRA members and the soldiers, however the IRA said later that the two dead men were not involved in gun battle. Eugene Kelly 25 years, Co. Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers at RUC Loughgall Barracks, County Armagh, on 8 May 1987. Seven other IRA activists were also killed; Declan Arthurs (21), Seamus Donnelly (19), Michael Anthony Gormley (25), Patrick Kelly (30), James Lynagh (31), Padraig McKearney (32), and Gerard O'Callaghan (29). Anthony Hughes (36), a civilian was also shot dead and his brother seriously injured when they drove their car into the firing zone. Michael Kelly 17 years, Derry City, shot dead by British soldiers at an anti-internment march in Derry on 30 January 1972. In total fourteen people, including Mr Doherty were killed or fatally wounded that day, known later as Bloody Sunday. The others killed were; Gerard Donaghy (17), Kevin McElhinney (17), Bernard McGuigan (41), Hugh Gilmore (17), William Nash (19), Michael McDaid (20), John Young (17), John Duddy (17), James Wray (22), Patrick Doherty (31), Gerald McKinney (35), William McKinney (26) and John Johnston (59). Patrick Kelly 30 years, Co. Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers at RUC Loughgall Barracks, County Armagh, on 8 May 1987. Seven other IRA activists were also killed; Declan Arthurs (21), Seamus Donnelly (19), Michael Anthony Gormley (25), Eugene Kelly (25), James Lynagh (31), Padraig McKearney (32), and Gerard O'Callaghan (29). Anthony Hughes (36), a civilian was also shot dead and his brother seriously injured when they drove their car into the firing zone. Paul Kelly 17 years, Whiterock Crescent, west Belfast, shot dead in a stolen car at Kennedy Way roundabout on 15 January 1985, by members of the British army's Ulster Defence Regiment. Kevin Kilpatrick 21 years, Coalisland, County Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by the UDR near Coagh, County Tyrone, as he attempted to drive through a checkpoint on 13 May 1973. Eamonn Lafferty 20 years, Creggan, Derry City, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in the city on 18 August 1971. John Laverty 20 years, Ballymurphy, west Belfast, accosted by British soldiers, beaten and then shot dead on 11 August 1971. Mr Laverty had been with his younger brother that evening visiting a sister in Turf Lodge. On their way home they could hear the sounds of whistles and the rattle of bin lids; a warning at that time that British troops were in the area. The two young men decided to split up. John was later found dead in a derelict corporation yard at the top of the Whiterock Road. Mr Joseph Corr was also shot and fatally wounded that evening by British soldiers in the same area. He died on the 27 August 1971. Danny Lennon 23 years, Andersonstown, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers as he drove a car along Finaghy Road North. The British soldiers were in an armoured vehicle when they spotted Mr Lennon. They immediately opened fire on the car, firing over 60 shots during a short chase. After Mr Lennon was killed the car went out of control and hitting a mother and her three children. The children, Joanne Maguire (9), John Maguire (3) and Andrew Maguire (6 weeks), were all killed. The failure of the British authorities to release the results of the children's autopsies has resulted in much speculation that they too may have been shot by the British army. Julie Livingstone 14 years, Carrigart Avenue, Lenadoon, west Belfast, was struck on the head by a plastic bullet at Stewartstown Road on 12 May 1981. She died the following day in hospital. A member of the British Army's Prince of Wales Regiment fired the bullet. Seamus Ludlow was abducted and murdered by armed Loyalists and British soldiers outside the town of Dundalk on the night of 1st. and 2nd. May 1976. He was last seen thumbing a lift home from the pub at around midnight before he disappeared. Despite false claims, that were encouraged by the Irish Gardai, that Seamus Ludlow had been murdered by the IRA because he was an informer, it is now known that both the Gardai and the RUC in the North of Ireland were aware at least in 1979, if not even earlier, that the killers were in fact Loyalists. They knew that they included at least two locally recruited members of the British Army. Jim Lynagh 31 years, Co. Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers at RUC Loughgall Barracks, County Armagh, on 8 May 1987. Seven other IRA activists were also killed; Declan Arthurs (21), Seamus Donnelly (19), Michael Anthony Gormley (25), Eugene Kelly (25), Patrick Kelly (30), Padraig McKearney (32), and Gerard O'Callaghan (29). Anthony Hughes (36), a civilian was also shot dead and his brother seriously injured when they drove their car into the firing zone. Patrick McAdorey 24 years, Ardoyne, north Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in Ardoyne on 9 August 1971. Internment without trial was introduced in the early hours of 9 August, and the Ardoyne area like many nationalist areas in the North of Ireland were entered by large forces of British troops on raid and arrest operations. During the resistance to these operations scores of people were killed or injured by British forces. Aidan McAnespie 24 years, Aughnacloy, County Tyrone, he was shot dead by a British soldier as he crossed the border into the South of Ireland on 21 February 1988. Mr McAnespie had been on his way to play Gaelic football when a British soldier in an observation post shot him. The soldier claimed he was moving the machine gun inside the post when his hand, which he said was wet, slipped on the trigger. The soldier was later charged and acquitted of manslaughter. The family and Friends of Mr McAnespie said he was constantly harassed by the soldiers at the checkpoint and threatened he would be shot. The soldier acquitted was allowed to return to the British army. Daniel McAreavey 21 years, Lower Falls Road, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers near his home on 6 October 1972. George McBrearty 24 years, Derry City, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by an undercover British soldier in the city on 28 May 1981. Another IRA activist, Charles Maguire (20), was shot dead in the same incident. Nora McCabe was shot-dead by the RUC on the 8th July 1981 at 7.45am as she left her home in Linden Street off the Falls Road for the corner shop to buy cigarettes. Patrick McCabe 16 years, Duneden Park, Ardoyne, north Belfast, shot dead in Ardoyne on 27 March 1973, by members of the British Army's Parachute Regiment. David McCafferty 14 years, Ballymurphy, west Belfast, he was shot dead by British soldiers firing from concealed positions overlooking Ballymurphy, on 9 July 1972. Also killed in the Ballymurphy area that day by British army snipers were, Patrick Butler (39), Fr. Noel Fitzpatrick (40), John Dougal (16) and Margaret Gargan (13). Daniel McCann 30 years, Andersonstown, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers in Gibraltar on 6 March 1988. Mairead Farrell (31) and Sean Savage (24), also IRA activists, were shot and killed during the same incident. Joseph McCann 25 years, Turf Lodge, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in the Markets area of south Belfast, on 15 April 1972. Mr McCann was making his way along a street when soldiers using a heavy machine gun fired him on. The soldiers had been tip off about Mr McCann's visit to the area and fired on him as soon as he was spotted. Michael McCartan 16 years, Artana Street, Ormeau Road, south Belfast, shot by a member of the RUC on 23 July 1980. He died in hospital at1.30am on 24 July 1980. Martin McCaughey 23 years, Galbally, County Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers outside Loughgall, County Armagh, on 9 October 1990. Desmond Grew, also an IRA activist, was killed in the same incident. Mr Grew's brother, Seamus Grew, was shot dead by undercover RUC members in 1982. Stephen McConomy 11 years, Dove Gardens, Derry City, hit by a plastic bullet on 16 April 1982, fired by a member of the British Army's Royal Anglian Regiment. He died in hospital three days later on 19 April. Danny McCooey 20, died on May 20 1977, after being set upon by British soldiers in Castle Street, as he returned from a night out at a city centre snooker hall with a friend. Eamonn McCormick 17 years, Glenalina Road, Ballymurphy estate, West Belfast, shot and seriously injured on Halloween night 1971, by members of the British Army's Parachute Regiment. He died in hospital nearly three months later on 16 January 1972. Gerald McDade 23 years, Ardoyne, north Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers after his arrest in Ardoyne on 21 December 1971. Mr McDade was in a social club when soldiers entered and arrested a number of men and took then outside. The men were line up against a wall. The British authorities claimed Mr McDade tried to escape when he was shot, however witnesses to the shooting disputed this. In November 1974 Mr McDade's brother James died in a premature explosion in England. He was also a member of the IRA. James McDaid 30 years, Derry City, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers as he made his way across a field near the Derry/Donegal border on 29 December 1972. He was unarmed when he was shot. Michael McDaid 20 years, Derry City, shot dead by British soldiers at an anti-internment march in Derry on 30 January 1972. In total fourteen people, including Mr Doherty were killed or fatally wounded that day, known later as Bloody Sunday. The others killed were; Gerard Donaghy (17), Kevin McElhinney (17), Bernard McGuigan (41), Hugh Gilmore (17), William Nash (19), Michael Kelly (17), John Young (17), John Duddy (17), James Wray (22), Patrick Doherty (31), Gerald McKinney (35), William McKinney (26) and John Johnston (59). Anthony McDowell 13 years, Duneden Park, Ardoyne, north Belfast, shot dead on 19 April 1973, by members of the British Army's Parachute Regiment. Seamus McElwaine 25 years, Scotstown, County Monaghan, an IRA activist, he was shot dead after he was capture by undercover British soldiers in County Fermanagh, on 26 April 1986. Mr McElwaine had been on the run for several years after escaping from Long Kesh prison in 1983. On the night he was killed he and another IRA activist were examining explosives when they were fired on. Mr McElwaine was hit and captured, the other man, who was also hit, managed to hid until day break when he too was arrested. He said later he heard the soldiers questioning Mr McElwaine for some time before they killed him. Annette McGavigan 14 years, Drumcliff Avenue, Derry City, shot dead by a British soldier in a street in the city on 6 September 1971. Eugene McGillan 18 years, Derry city, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in the Bogside area of the city on 14 March 1972. Colm Keenan (19), also an IRA activist, was shot dead around the same time. Their deaths followed a British army raid into the Bogside late in the evening. A gun battle ensued between IRA members and the soldiers, however the IRA said later that the two dead men were not involved in gun battle. James McGrillan 25 years, Ballymurphy, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in the Springfield Road area on 15 February 1976. Colm McGirr 23 years, Coalisland, County Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead along with Brian Campbell (19) by undercover British soldiers on 4 December 1983. The shooting occurred just outside Coalisland as both men approached an IRA arms dump. Kevin McGovern 19 year, Kinawley, County Fermanagh, shot dead by the RUC at Cookstown, County Tyrone, on 29 September 1991. Mr McGovern, a student, the RUC said was shot as he attempted to throw something at them. Nothing was found. It was revealed the RUC had staked out the area hoping to catch an IRA bombing unit. The RUC member who shot the youth was later charged with murder. He was acquitted at trial, where the judge said that although the officer 'acted honestly and mistakenly in self-defence, he did not act reasonably.' Bernard McGuigan 41 years, Derry City, shot dead by British soldiers at an anti-internment march in Derry on 30 January 1972. In total fourteen people, including Mr Doherty were killed or fatally wounded that day, known later as Bloody Sunday. The others killed were; Gerard Donaghy (17), Michael McDaid (20), Michael McDaid (17), Hugh Gilmore (17), William Nash (19), Michael Kelly (17), John Young (17), John Duddy (17), James Wray (22), Patrick Doherty (31), Gerald McKinney (35), William McKinney (26) and John Johnston (59). Doreen McGuinness 16 years, Distillery Street, west Belfast, shot in a stolen car on 1 January 1980, by members of the British Army's Parachute Regiment. She died shortly after being admitted to hospital. Peter McGuinness 41 years, Bawnmore, Shore Road, north Belfast, struck by a plastic bullet fired by a member of the Royal Ulster Constabulary on 9 August 1981. He died minutes later in the living room of his home. Robert McGuinness 22 years, Brandywell, Derry City, he was shot and fatally wounded by British soldiers as he walked home in the early hours of 22 June 1973. He died four days later on 26 June. Residents said Mr McGuinness was unarmed when a soldier from inside an armour car shot him. Sean McIlvenna 33 years, originally from Belfast living in Dundalk, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by members of the RUC near Blackwatertown, County Armagh, on 17 December 1984. William McKavanagh 21 years, Markets, south Belfast, he was shot dead by British soldiers near his home on 11 August 1971. Mr Kavanagh with several other men when taking fish from a burnt out shop. Seeing British soldiers the men panicked and fled. Patricia McKay 20 years, Lower Falls Road, west Belfast, an IRA activist, she was shot dead by British soldiers on 30 September 1972. There had been several shooting incidents in the Falls Road area earlier on the same day Mrs McKay was shot; a British soldier and an IRA volunteer were killed in these exchanges. Following the funeral of a victim of sectarian violence, who was also a republican, the shooting resumed, and Mrs McKay was killed at this time. She was unarmed when she was shot. Padraig McKearney 32 years, Co. Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers at RUC Loughgall Barracks, County Armagh, on 8 May 1987. Seven other IRA activists were also killed; Declan Arthurs (21), Seamus Donnelly (19), Michael Anthony Gormley (25), Eugene Kelly (25), Patrick Kelly (30), Jim Lynagh (31), and Gerard O'Callaghan (29). Anthony Hughes (36), a civilian was also shot dead and his brother seriously injured when they drove their car into the firing zone. Sean McKee 17 years, Ladbrook Drive, Ardoyne, North Belfast, shot dead in Ardoyne on 18 May 1973, by members of the British Army's Parachute Regiment. Francis McKeown 43 years, Coolnasilla Park South, Glen Road, west Belfast, shot and fatally wounded on 15 July 1972, at Lenadoon by members of the British Army. He died in hospital the following day. Francis McKeown was married with six children, whose ages at the time of his death ranged from just six months to thirteen years old. James McKernan 29 years, Andersonstown, west Belfast, IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers on the Andersonstown Road on 14 September 1986. Gervase McKerr 31 year-old Gervaise McKerr, was shot-dead by the RUC on November 11th 1982 along with two other men Eugene Toman (21), and Sean Burns also 21 at Tullygally Road in Lurgan Co Armagh. These killings, and those of three other men in the north Armagh area also by the RUC three weeks later, became known as shoot-to-kill incidents. Trevor McKibbin 19 years, Ardoyne, north Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in Ardoyne on 19 April 1977. At his funeral unionist/loyalist paramilitaries detonated a car bomb amongst the mourners, killing two people and injuring dozens of others. Gerard McKinney 35 years, Derry City, shot dead by British soldiers at an anti-internment march in Derry on 30 January 1972. In total fourteen people, including Mr Doherty were killed or fatally wounded that day, known later as Bloody Sunday. The others killed were; Gerard Donaghy (17), Michael McDaid (20), Michael McDaid (17), Hugh Gilmore (17), William Nash (19), Michael Kelly (17), John Young (17), John Duddy (17), James Wray (22), Patrick Doherty (31), Bernard McGuigan (41), William McKinney (26) and John Johnston (59). William McKinney 26 years, Derry City, shot dead by British soldiers at an anti-internment march in Derry on 30 January 1972. In total fourteen people, including Mr Doherty were killed or fatally wounded that day, known later as Bloody Sunday. The others killed were; Gerard Donaghy (17), Michael McDaid (20), Michael McDaid (17), Hugh Gilmore (17), William Nash (19), Michael Kelly (17), John Young (17), John Duddy (17), James Wray (22), Patrick Doherty (31), Bernard McGuigan (41), Gerard McKinney (35) and John Johnston (59). Thomas James McLaughlin 27 years, Newry, shot dead along with Robert Anderson and Sean Ruddy by British soldiers in Newry, Co. Down, on 24 October 1971. The soldiers were on the roof of a building overlooking a bank and shot the three men as they attempted to rob the bank. Samuel McLarnon 47 years, Ardoyne, north Belfast, shot dead in his home by the RUC on 15 August 1969. The street where Mr McLarnon lived was being invaded by RUC and unionist mobs at the time of the shooting. Neil McMonagle 24 years, Derry, an INLA activist, he was shot dead by an undercover British soldier in the city on 2 February 1983. The shooting occurred after Mr McMonagle and another spotted a man in a car acting suspiciously in the Shantallow area. When they approached the man he pulled out a gun and when tackled he shot Mr McMonagle dead and wounded his friend. John McNeill 43 years, Oldpark, north Belfast, shot dead by undercover soldiers during a robbery of a bookmakers on the Falls Road, on 13 January 1990. The soldiers also killed two other men, Peter Thompson (23) and Edward Hale (25). The undercover soldiers were apparently aware of the robbery well in advance and waited for them to emerge from the building before they carried out the shooting. None of the men were armed. Colm McNutt 18 years, Derry City, an INLA activist, he was shot dead by an undercover British soldier in the city on 12 December 1977. Mr McNutt and another man attempted to hijack a car being driven by the undercover soldier. When he approached the car the soldier inside immediately opened fire wounding McNutt. The soldier fired again as he tried to escape, killing him. Dermott McShane 35 years, Derry city, he was killed when a British army armoured vehicle was deliberately driven at a crowd during rioting in the city on 13 July 1996. Martin McShane 16 years old, Meenagh Park, Coalisland, Co. Tyrone, shot dead near his home by members of the British Army's Royal Marine Commandos on 14 December 1971. Paul McWilliams 16 years, Springfield Avenue, Ballymurphy, west Belfast, shot dead on 9 August 1977, by members of the British Army's Light Infantry Regiment. Paul Magorrian 21 years, Castlewellan, County Down, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers as he walked along a street in the town on14 August 1974. Dorothy Maguire 19 years, Lower Falls, west Belfast, she was shot dead by British soldiers along with Maura Meehan (30) on 23 October 1971. The two women had been in a car driving around the Lower Falls Road area raising the alarm that British soldiers were raiding homes in the area when they were shot. William (Jackie) Mailey 30 years, Ardoyne, north Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead along with two other IRA activists, Denis Brown (28) and James Mulvenna (28), by undercover British soldiers on 20 June 1978. The three men were killed in an ambush as they approached a post office vehicle depot in north Belfast. William Hanna (28), who drove into the fire zone, was also shot and killed by the soldiers. Colm Marks a member of the IRA shot-dead by the RUC in April 1992 in Downpatrick Co Down. Colm Marks, unarmed and posing no threat was apprehended by the RUC in the driveway of a house in Downpatrick and shot-dead as part of an undercover operation that lay in wait for the IRA. Declan Martin 18 years, Dunloy, County Antrim, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover soldiers following a gun battle at Dunloy on 21 February 1984. Henry Hogan (21), also an IRA activist was shot dead at the same time. Private Paul Oram, a member of the 14th Intelligence Company, was killed earlier during the gun battle. Michael Marley 17 Years, Dunville Street, Falls Road, west Belfast, shot dead on 24 November 1973, by members of the British Army's Royal Green Jackets at Divis Flats. Gerard Martin Maginn 17years, Springfield Road, west Belfast, shot dead in a stolen car in the Poleglass housing estate on 3 November 1991, by members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary. John Maughan 19 years, and Michael Connors 13 years, both shot dead in Church Lane, near Belfast City centre, on 1 March 1972, by members of a joint British army and Royal Ulster Constabulary patrol. Michael Connors and John Maughan were both members of Ireland's travelling community and were living at a site in the Belfast area at the time of their deaths. Maura Meehan 30 years, Lower Falls, west Belfast, she was shot dead by British soldiers along with Dorothy Maguire (19) on 23 October 1971. The two women had been in a car driving around the Lower Falls Road area raising the alarm that British soldiers were raiding homes in the area when they were shot. Paul Moan 15 years, Glen Road, West Belfast, shot dead on 31 March 1980, in a stolen car by members of a British army foot patrol on the Shaw's Road. Tobias Molloy 18 years, Fountain Street, Strabane, killed by a rubber bullet during the early hours of Sunday, 16 July 1972. The fatal bullet was fired by a British soldier at the 'Camels Hump' checkpoint on the border between Lifford, County Donegal, and Strabane, County Tyrone. Jackie Mooney age 17, from Legland Street, Ligoniel, North Belfast, was shot dead on 15 July 1972 by members of the British army's Royal Marine Commandos. Alex Moorehead 16 Years, Newtownstewart, Co. Tyrone, shot dead in Newtownstewart on 7 October 1972, by members of the British Army's Ulster Defence Regiment. Desmond Morgan 18 years, Coalisland, County Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in the town on 27 November 1973. Brian Mullin 26 years, Carrickmore area, Co Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers at Drumnakilly, County Tyrone, on 30 August 1988. Two brothers, Gerard Harte (29) and Martin Harte (21), both IRA activists, were also killed in the shooting. The three men were in a car when soldiers, using heavy machine guns, fired on it. James Mulvenna 28 years, Ardoyne, north Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead along with two other IRA activists, Denis Brown (28) and William Mealy (30), by undercover British soldiers on 20 June 1978. The three men were killed in an ambush as they approached a post office vehicle depot in north Belfast. William Hanna (28), who drove into the fire zone, was also shot and killed by the soldiers. Patrick Mulvenna 19 years, Ballymurphy, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers in Ballymurphy on 31 August 1973. James Bryson (25) also an IRA activist was fatally wounded in the same incident and died in hospital on 22 September 1973. Both men were getting out of a car when they were shot. William Nash 19 years, Derry City, shot dead by British soldiers at an anti-internment march in Derry on 30 January 1972. In total fourteen people, including Mr Doherty were killed or fatally wounded that day, known later as Bloody Sunday. The others killed were; Gerard Donaghy (17), Michael McDaid (20), Michael McDaid (17), Hugh Gilmore (17), William McKinney (26), Michael Kelly (17), John Young (17), John Duddy (17), James Wray (22), Patrick Doherty (31), Bernard McGuigan (41), Gerard McKinney (35) and John Johnston (59). Michael Neill 16 years, Stanhope Street, Unity Flats, north Belfast, shot dead on 24 October 1977 by members of the British army 's Argyle and Southern Highlanders regiment. Leo Norney 17 years, Ardmonagh Parade, Turf Lodge, West Belfast, shot dead at Turf Lodge on 13 September 1975, by members of the British army's Black Watch Regiment. Brendan O'Callaghan 21 years, Lenadoon, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers not far from his home on the Stewartstown Road on 24 April 1977. He was part of an IRA patrol designed to protect republican and nationalist areas from attacks by unionist/loyalist paramilitaries. He was in the car park of a bar when soldiers fired on him from concealed positions in near by hedges. Gerard O'Callaghan 29 years, Co. Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers at RUC Loughgall Barracks, County Armagh, on 8 May 1987. Seven other IRA activists were also killed; Declan Arthurs (21), Seamus Donnelly (19), Michael Anthony Gormley (25), Eugene Kelly (25), Patrick Kelly (30), Jim Lynagh (31), and Padraig McKearney (32). Anthony Hughes (36), a civilian was also shot dead and his brother seriously injured when they drove their car into the firing zone. Kevin Barry O'Donnell 21 years, Coalisland, County Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers in the car park of a Catholic church outside Coalisland on 16 February 1992. Three other IRA activists, Sean O'Farrell (23), Peter Clancy (19) and Daniel Vincent (20) were also shot dead in the same incident. The four young men were involved in an attack on Coalisland RUC barracks, and afterwards retreated to the church car park where a large unit of undercover soldiers were waiting for them. Majella O'Hare 12 years, Rathview Gardens, Whitecross, Co. Armagh, shot near her home on 14 August 1976, by members of joint British army patrol of Royal Marine Commando and Parachute Regiment. She died on her way to the hospital. Daniel O'Neill 20 years, Falls Road, an IRA activist, he was shot and fatally wounded by British soldiers on 4 January 1972. He died three days later. Terence O'Neill 26 years, Ballymurphy, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by the RUC in Ballymurphy on 1 July 1980. Edward O'Rawe 27 years, Lower Falls Road, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in the Falls Road area on 12 April 1973. Sean O'Reardon 13 years old, Oramore Street, Clonard, Falls Road, West Belfast, shot dead in the Clonard area on 23 March 1972, by members of the British Army's Gloucester Regiment. William Price 28 years, Carnan, County Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers near Ardboe, County Tyrone, on 13 July 1984. The soldiers captured Mr Price during an attempt to burn down a factory. Several minutes afterwards he was shot dead. James Quigley 18 years, Lower Falls Road, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in the Falls Road area on 29 September 1972. He was shot in the attic of a shop after soldiers said they saw a gunman. His body was thrown from the building to the ground. Michael Quigley 19 years, Derry City, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers near his home on 17 August 1972. He had been on his way to a party when he was shot. In 1976 during a compensation hearing the judge, who awarded his family damages, said the dead youth had not been involved in any activity when he was shot, and his death was not due to an accidental, but deliberate shooting. Frank Quinn 20 years, Ballymurphy, west Belfast, he was shot and killed by British soldiers in the Bally Murphy area on 9 August 1972. Mr Quinn had been with Catholic priest Fr. Hugh Mullan when he was shot. The two men and others had gone to the aid of a wounded man when they were both shot. They died for their wounds a short time later. Billy Reid 32 years, New Lodge Road, north Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in central Belfast on 15 May 1971. Thomas Reilly 22 years, Turf Lodge, west Belfast, he was shot dead by British soldiers near his home on 9 August 1983. It was a warm summers day and Mr Reilly was not wearing a shirt when he was shot. A British soldier was later charged and convicted with his murder. He was the first soldier to be jailed for life for killing in the North of Ireland. However, it was later revealed that he had been released from prison after three years and reinstated in the army. Daniel Rooney 19 years, St. James area, west Belfast, he was shot dead by undercover soldiers near his home on 27 September 1972. Patrick Rooney 9 year-old Patrick Rooney was shot-dead by the RUC in August 1969. Patrick was shot as his father Cornelius attempted to carry him from his bedroom to the family living room for safety during disturbances when a RUC/loyalist led mob attacked the lower Falls area in Belfast. Patrick Rooney was the first child to be killed in the Troubles. Frank Rowntree 11 years, Lower Clonard Street, Falls Road, west Belfast, shot with a (doctored) rubber bullet on 20 April 1972, at the Divis Flats, by members of the British Army's Royal Anglian Regiment. He died in the Royal Victoria Hospital three days later on 23 April. Sean Ruddy 19 years, Newry, shot dead along with Robert Anderson and Thomas James McLaughlin by British soldiers in Newry, Co. Down, on 24 October 1971. The soldiers were on the roof of a building overlooking a bank and shot the three men as they attempted to rob the bank. James Saunders 22 years, Oldpark area, north Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in the Oldpark area on 6 February 1971. John Savage 17 Years, Ardoyne, North Belfast, shot dead in a stolen car on the Springfield Road on 18 December 1976, by members of the British army's Parachute Regiment. Sean Savage 24 years, Andersonstown, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers in Gibraltar on 6 March 1988. Mairead Farrell (31) and Daniel McCann (30), also IRA activists, were shot and killed during the same incident. Louis Scullion 27 years, Unity Flats, north Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers near his home on 14 July 1972. Seamus Simpson 21 years, Andersonstown, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in the Andersonstown area on 11 August 1971. Martin Skillen 21 years, Turf Lodge, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in the Lower falls Road area on 3 August 1974. Brian Smyth 32 years, Ardoyne, north Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in Ardoyne on 17 April 1973. The soldiers were in an observation post and claimed Mr Smyth and other men were armed. Several years later one of the soldiers involved in the shooting admitted at the appeal of one of the men arrested after the shooting and charged with possession that he had lied. He said none of the men had a gun and they had opened fire when their commanding officer said the men were members of the IRA. The same officer told the soldier to lie after the shooting. Brian Stewart 13 years, Norglen Crescent, Turf Lodge, west Belfast, hit by a plastic bullet near his home on 4 October 1976, fired by members of the British army's King's Own Scottish Borders. He died in hospital six days later on 10 October. John Starrs 19 years, Derry City, an IRA activist, he was shot and fatally wounded by British soldiers in the city on 13 May 1972. Ken Stronge 46 years, Donegal Road, south Belfast, he was shot and fatally wounded by undercover British soldiers as he drove along North Queen Street, on 4 July 1988. He was driving a taxi and was passing an RUC barrack there, as they IRA were about to attack the building. A large number of undercover soldiers, apparently aware of the intended attack, waited inside and outside the barrack and pour heavy fire into the surrounding area once the attack began. David Thompson 28 years, Sheriff Street, Short Strand, east Belfast, he was shot dead by British soldiers near his home on 17 October 1971. He was at the corner of his own street when he was shot. Kathleen Thompson 24 years, Creggan, Derry City, she was shot dead by British soldiers in the back garden of her home on 6 November 1971. The shooting took place during a raid and arrest operation by British forces. Mr Thompson had a bin lid in her hand to raise the alarm of the raiding party's presence when she was shot. Peter Thompson 23 years, Dunmurry, west Belfast, shot dead by undercover soldiers during a robbery of a bookmakers on the Falls Road, on 13 January 1990. The soldiers also killed two other men, John McNeill (43) and Edward Hale (25). The undercover soldiers were apparently aware of the robbery well in advance and waited for them to emerge from the building before they carried out the shooting. None of the men were armed. Eugene Toman 21 years, Lurgan, County Armagh, an IRA activist, he was shot dead in a car by an undercover RUC unit outside Lurgan on 11 November 1982. Two other IRA activists, Gervase McKerr (31) and Sean Burns (21), were also killed in the shooting. The three men were travelling in the car outside Lurgan when the shooting occurred. Joseph (Joe) Walker 18 years, Derry, an IRA activist, he was shot and killed by British soldiers near his Creggan home on 3 December 1973. Keith White 20 years, Houston Park, Mourneview estate, Lurgan, County Armagh, hit by a plastic bullet fired by a member of the RUC on 31 March 1986. He died in hospital two weeks later on 14 April. Paul Whitters 15 years, Derry City, struck on the head by a plastic-bullet fired by a member of the Royal Ulster Constabulary on 15 April 1981. He died in hospital ten days later on 25 April. Jim Wray 22 years, Derry City, shot dead by British soldiers at an anti-internment march in Derry on 30 January 1972. In total fourteen people, including Mr Doherty were killed or fatally wounded that day, known later as Bloody Sunday. The others killed were; Gerard Donaghy (17), Michael McDaid (20), Michael McDaid (17), Hugh Gilmore (17), William McKinney (26), Michael Kelly (17), John Young (17), John Duddy (17), William Nash (19), Patrick Doherty (31), Bernard McGuigan (41), Gerard McKinney (35) and John Johnston (59). John Young 17 years, Derry City, shot dead by British soldiers at an anti-internment march in Derry on 30 January 1972. In total fourteen people, including Mr Doherty were killed or fatally wounded that day, known later as Bloody Sunday. The others killed were; Gerard Donaghy (17), Michael McDaid (20), Michael McDaid (17), Hugh Gilmore (17), William McKinney (26), Michael Kelly (17), Jim Wray (22), John Duddy (17), William Nash (19), Patrick Doherty (31), Bernard McGuigan (41), Gerard McKinney (35) and John Johnston (59). |
|
13 Mar 09 - 10:25 PM (#2588501) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Teribus Aww diddums, how sweet of you GuestAR. I'd put up your Republican paramilitary's LIST OF SHAME in reply but I don't think the bandwidth retrictions would take too kindly to a list of names and circumstances covering the deaths of over 2000 odd people, mostly Irish born men, women and children. Who were those Irish republican "vultures" supposed to be protecting again AR?? Care to tell us all about your brave vultures abduction, torture and murder of Jean McConville, Al. Or seeing how this is a music site, what about a wee song about the Omagh Bombing, that was a "Real" IRA spectacular wasn't it? Something for you to be really proud of - must have taken "real" guts to pull that one off - is that how they got their name?? |
|
13 Mar 09 - 10:26 PM (#2588502) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Ireland You know the wee blue clicky thing save the bandwidth and use it. A few facts for you and your outdated views, results for the last elections 2003 sorry can't blue clicky it. Here are the results *Gerry Adams MP (SF) 6029 (17.8%) +Sue Ramsey (SF) 4715 (14.0%) Paul Maskey (SF) 4368 (12.9%) Jennifer McCann (SF) 4265 (12.6%) *Fra McCann (SF) 4254 (12.6%) *Diane Dodds (DUP) 3661 (10.8%) *Alex Attwood (SDLP) 3036 (9.0%) Margaret Walsh (SDLP) 1074 (3.2%) Seán Mitchell (People Before Profit Alliance) 774 (2.3%) Louis West (UUP) 558 (1.7%) John Lowry (WP) 434 (1.3%) Geraldine Taylor (RSF) 427 (1.3%) Daniel McGuinness (Alliance) 127 (0.4%) Rainbow George (Make Politicians History) 68 (0.2%) *Elected in 2003 from West Belfast +Appointed to 2003-07 Assembly to fill a vacancy SF 23,631 (69.9%, +4.9%) 5 seats (+1) SDLP 4,110 (12.2%, -6.9%) 1 seat DUP 3,661 (10.8%, +3.1%) (-1) People Before Profit 774 (2.3%) UUP 558 (1.7%, -1.9%) WP 434 (1.3%, +0.05%) RSF 427 (1.3%) Alliance 127 (0.4%, +0.1%) Rainbow George 68 (0.2%) Electorate 50,792 Votes cast 34,238 (67.4%); spoilt votes 448 (1.3%) Valid votes 33,790; quota 4,828 23,000 support SF as opposed to maybe 500 in total actively declaring support for more militant means. Taken from another forum the above was not my work but my education to real facts. Go on figure out how many votes were for the dissidents. You are telling us such a small amount have full support grow up. |
|
14 Mar 09 - 06:11 AM (#2588601) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Keith A of Hertford Palm trees and coconuts in Iceland? How does that work Skarpi? |
|
14 Mar 09 - 06:20 AM (#2588602) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Keith A of Hertford Guest AR/Al, You rebuked me with "We all want peace, not just in Ireland, on here too " But now the balaclava is off and you reveal yourself to be one of the dissidents who wants to destroy the peace process and restart the war. Why are you here pushing your lies? The clue is in this post, "The Irish people will always be grateful to the American nation for their support through the tough times, they delivered and it will never be forgotten." Mudcat is widely read among Irish Americans. The paramilitaries recocgnise that and delegate people to keep their lies and myths going. That is why we get all these contributors who are not at all interested in music. Why else would they be here? |
|
14 Mar 09 - 06:26 AM (#2588604) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Keith A of Hertford Big Mick, in my 3 line post I gently pointed out a misconception in your post. You posted an angry reply and have not responded to me since. Mick, please do not blame the messenger. It is a very common misconception because the paramilitaries have relentlessly promulgated that lie from the start. But it was always a lie. |
|
14 Mar 09 - 08:11 AM (#2588640) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Teribus A question for you Guest,AR, looking through your "British List of Shame", which is about one tenth the length of the "Republican Paramilitaries List of Shame" and one third the length of the "Loyalist Paramilitaries List of Shame" a thought struck me, that prompts me to ask. Is the IRA, be it – Official – Provisional – Continuity – Real – Delusional – Imaginary – the only "Army" that "declares" a "war" and then complains when its "soldiers" get killed by the other side?? Pathetic or What!! While not so good at taking on the British Army, your "hero's within the ranks of Irish Republican Army" are pretty good at taking on a 5ft tall mother of ten and torturing and murdering her – Mind you it took twelve of those "heroes" to do that, and then to cap it all off, what did one of your "Bold, Brave Volunteers" do, no doubt in your opinion in heroic style? Having tortured her by cutting off her fingers before they shot her this "hero" steals her jewelry. If that's the sort of thing you're proud of pal – dig out. |
|
14 Mar 09 - 08:22 AM (#2588652) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Keith A of Hertford Catholics killed by army 258 Catholics killed by Republican paramilitaries 395 But, this post shows the army to be responsible for the deaths of less than 80 people who were non combatant or not engaged in crime, irrespective of religeon. thread.cfm?threadid=91818&messages=457#1754202 Scroll up from the post to see the impeccable source of the data. Republican paramilitaries were therefor responsible for the deaths of more than FIVE TIMES as many innocent Catholic men, women and children than the army was. But, there were about 20 soldiers to every one volunteer. So,the average volunteer was ONE HUNDRED TIMES as guilty as the average soldier. |
|
14 Mar 09 - 09:57 AM (#2588705) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Keith A of Hertford But you can not produce that post can you. It is a lie. You are completely discredited. Time for you to change names again. |
|
14 Mar 09 - 12:14 PM (#2588774) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Ireland Here is another link for those who wish to educate themselves and just maybe we will not read how people get their knowledge of Ireland based on rep who hid out in America. http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=eTRIo1dic9EC&pg=PA8&lpg=PA8&dq=how+many+Catholics+killed+by+Republican+paramilitaries++in+ire Interesting point on the name the terrorists give themselves they claim to be an army and yet whinge when military tactics are used against them,not one person has answered the question as to why. The thing our plastics dissidents has to realise,well they do but they just ignore it, is they simply do not have the support and as the election figures show about 500 people voted or showed support for dissidents. Next there will be songs about the brave 500 who carried on. Carried on the stupid hatred and violence. BTW AR you do not have to trawl through other posts to ascertain Ter was a soldier in N.Ireland he told us that much in his replies to you. |
|
14 Mar 09 - 12:21 PM (#2588778) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: skarpi " And I just asked , who are they ? not why , or what if or it should have been . kv Skarpi |
|
14 Mar 09 - 12:24 PM (#2588784) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Ireland Here's me thinking you only wanted a quick and concise answer to your question... Sorry Skarpi there are seldom quick answers to such questions. How do ya do smilies? |
|
14 Mar 09 - 12:25 PM (#2588787) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Keith A of Hertford AR, Oakville was a liar like you. He lied that I had made unpleasant posts like you lied about T. My post in his name was the absolute truth. He could not find any such posts. The only falsehood was that he was not ashamed of his lies. Again just like you. I did not expect anyone to believe such a post. It was obvious what i was doing. I have access to many computers on various ISPs |
|
14 Mar 09 - 12:29 PM (#2588790) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Keith A of Hertford The link in my 08.22 AM post leads to the same list that AR has copied. The post directly linked is a study of the list showing that less than 80 were inocent victims. |
|
14 Mar 09 - 12:55 PM (#2588807) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: MartinRyan This thread (along with the mis-named Irish Peace Process one) is utterly depressing. Keith of Hereford yet again jams his stick into the local nest of republicans, romantic and otherwise, and watches as they hiss. As blood sports go, that's harmless enough - but in the end it's quite pointless. That he is clearly able to withstand the outrageous invective generated is no excuse. It's ultimately pointless. The only one who emerges with any credit is poor skarpi. Give it a rest. Regards |
|
14 Mar 09 - 12:56 PM (#2588809) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Keith A of Hertford You would never pretend to be someone else would you? You were allowed on here because you were an old established guest. Here is one of your old posts. Thread Name Subject Posted [PM] GUEST,AR the folk revival (223* d) RE: the folk revival 04 Jul 07 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quoted from Brian Peters: "Since several of you have mentioned Jeff Wesley, I can report that he came along to my folk club gig in Northampton last night, and sang a song written by Matt Armour, which Jeff had had to Anglicize in order to remove elements of Scots dialect." Yes, it is proper to root out that awful Scots dialect whenever it crops up - polluting our good and pure English tongue like that! |
|
14 Mar 09 - 12:59 PM (#2588812) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: GUEST,AR Well said MartinRyan. I imagine he will do the right thing and now leave this thread as he has been discredited by his own admission. |
|
14 Mar 09 - 01:16 PM (#2588822) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: MartinRyan GuestAR, As ever, you continue your policy of reading into anyone's post that which suits your own argument. Lay off, please. Regards |
|
14 Mar 09 - 01:23 PM (#2588828) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Keith A of Hertford What you did was really chilling. You chose a Guest who never goes below the line. Then you start posting below the line to establish credibility. And you started doing this last month. You knew what was coming. |
|
14 Mar 09 - 01:49 PM (#2588837) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: The Sandman can someone please explain what is going on? |
|
14 Mar 09 - 01:51 PM (#2588838) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Ireland I thought the questions raised by the answer to the original question by Skarpi,who is, if memory serves reasonably educated in Irish affairs,no I am not having a pop at Skarpi. When answers to such a question are obviously biased does it really bode skarpi well for others to just agree and let it go? On hind sight yes, it only gives poop stirrers a platform to spout their untruths and gives them credence rather than ridiculed for what they are doing. WRT Skarpi what sort of answer did you want? The guy that was arrested for being a suspect in the soldiers murders is well know, I have known of him from his days as a teenager,he is an ex IRA man that disagreed with the PIRA and SF stance of peace. Remember the RIR homecoing parade in Belfast: Now here is where people get confused,if the dissidents are not wanted, why would they be welcome to join in and supervise rep/nat marches? This man marshalled protesters against the RIR homecoming parade, he stood side by side with ex IRA leaders and SF members, no real show of dissociation between the groups there. Given these facts it is a blessing that we have had the response to the murders by both extremes in our society, wrt nat\rep and union\loyalist "ex" terror groups. There are no simple answers to questions about Irish politics. |
|
14 Mar 09 - 02:01 PM (#2588845) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Keith A of Hertford Captain B, Guest AR has been caught in a deception. To get around the ban on non established guests he userped the identity of a respectable guest who never goes below the line. |
|
15 Mar 09 - 05:48 AM (#2589162) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: MartinRyan Assuming that IS you, Keith, I suggest you apply my last post to GuestAR to yourself. Regards |
|
15 Mar 09 - 06:15 AM (#2589177) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Teribus Keith A of Hertford - 14 Mar 09 - 12:56 PM "You would never pretend to be someone else would you?" Well spotted Keith, I somehow doubt very much whether the Guest,AR who has posted on this thread has a German mother and plays a Yari Guitar and has an interest in German and Danish Folk Ballads. My bet, he's Comrac or one of the methadone munchers from that British Government sponsored 20ft container or Portakabin that was equipped with some second hand computers and off-loaded in NI in a honest attempt to occupy their minds, or at least what was left of their minds, get them off drugs and off the streets. He's pulled exactly the same stunt before hijacking a former "above the line only" posting Guests identity to enter threads on Northern Ireland, then he was Guest,Al - of which there were two, one who was English and the other was an Ammerican who was into American fiddle music. Two good pieces in todays Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/jennymccartney/4990915/Northern-Ireland-Disgust-alone-will-not-stop-the-killing.ht & http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/charlesmoore/4987210/When-youre-fighting-terrorists-the-vast-majority-is-not-enoug |
|
15 Mar 09 - 06:24 AM (#2589180) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: greg stephens This all could get quite interesting politically.Adams and McGuiness have argued the Provisionals into quite a strange place with the talk of "traitors" and asking people to turn suspects into the police. People are now being arrested. So what will the Provisionals' position be when the Real/Continuity boys atart all the political prisoner/on the blanket/hunger strike stuff? |
|
15 Mar 09 - 10:24 AM (#2589313) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Stu There's an interesting interview with Ruairi O'Bradaigh in today's Observer, probably the leading dissident in the North and his view on the actions of Adams and McGuinness. Nothing particularly new or exciting in the piece, but there was one paragraph which caught my attention: "In a chilling warning to young Catholics in Northern Ireland encouraged for the first time in decades by Sinn Féin to join the police, O'Bradaigh said: "I think that's a very unwise thing to urge people to do because that's obviously going to put them in harm's way. Which is a very grave responsibility to undertake. My advice would be 'don't join up' and I think it's wrong to encourage young people to join the British forces." O'Bradaigh's advice extends to those who vote for Sinn Féin and who have been encouraged by Adams and McGuinness to pass on information about the soldiers' and policeman's killers to the PSNI." What worries me here is the veiled threat towards people voting for Sinn Féin. Intimidation is bad enough as it is, but when this behaviour extends towards people using democracy to achieve their aims peacefully, then we're heading to a bad place again. You have to feel for all those in the North brought up not knowing violence but who could be plunged back into it by these people. |
|
15 Mar 09 - 11:24 AM (#2589344) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Ireland Interestingly the hunger strikers most famous participant the right hon B.Sands used his "death" not for peace but more killing,he wanted the young to come out and support his fight. His brother in-law Michael McKevitt and sister Bernadette Sands McKevitt were founding members of the RIRA and was members of the The 32 County Sovereignty Movement {32CSM}. Which many say is the RIRA equivalent of SF. To be fair they deny this. We also have to consider the position of Adams and McGuinness they are fighting to keep the dissidents in some sort of order, what will happen if they decide to get rid of Adams and McGuinness like Micheal Collins, Ter the links are 404. |
|
15 Mar 09 - 12:05 PM (#2589372) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Ireland Yes your right, Sands is an iconic figure, but do those who put him on that pedestal really know the history behind this man and his advocating of violence over peace. He was an icon in Colombia until three people showed up and Colombians saw the type off people they looked upon as icons do not dersrve it. Thankfully the internet is allowing people to get more information about this place we call home and the damage the various terrorist groups did to it. Information that tells how it is and was, to allow them to see the full picture not the blinkered biased views of what ever side. All I can say prepare for a lot of icons getting dropped from their pedestal. |
|
15 Mar 09 - 01:19 PM (#2589412) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Leadfingers When will the IRA do something about the State of War that has existed between the IRA and The Irish Free State (Now Eire)since partition in 1921 ? |
|
15 Mar 09 - 01:36 PM (#2589428) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Teribus Sorry about the links they seem to be faulty. Here's the first from Jenny McCartney: Northern Ireland: Disgust alone will not stop the killing One lesson of the Troubles is that violence makes its own momentum, says Jenny McCartney. By Jenny McCartney Last Updated: 6:52PM GMT 14 Mar 2009 The late tycoon Sir James Goldsmith once remarked that when a man marries his mistress he creates a vacancy. The same adage applies, historically speaking, when militant Irish republicans get hitched to a government. The vacancy in question has now been filled, with depressing commitment, by the Real IRA and its current fellow-travellers in the Continuity IRA, who between them last week were responsible for the murders of two young British Army soldiers and a senior policeman. Many people have drawn comfort from the mass demonstrations of public revulsion in Northern Ireland that followed the murders. Peter Robinson, the DUP First Minister, and Martin McGuinness, the Sinn Fein Deputy First Minister, both professed their disgust at the killings (although McGuinness's muscular description of "traitors to the island of Ireland" for the killers of Stephen Carroll, the Northern Irish policeman, was notably more visceral than his reaction to the murder of the British Army soldiers). We would, however, be dangerously naïve to believe that moral opposition alone, while welcome, will make the slightest difference to the capacity of dissident republicans to strike again. If there is one lesson of the Troubles, it is that unchecked violence slowly creates its own momentum, sucking in apologists, silencing opposition, and generating fresh hatreds and confusions. When the Provisional IRA was established in 1969, amid a background of growing sectarian turbulence, my parents were living with three small children in a religiously mixed housing estate in Belfast. The overwhelming consensus there, at that time, was that the young Ian Paisley was a crazed religious demagogue, and the emergent Provisionals were despicable killers intent on dragging Northern Ireland into chaos. As the violence worsened, there were endless public protests against the murder campaigns of both loyalist and republican paramilitaries: the extremists prospered despite it. More than 30 years later, Paisley and the Provisional IRA leaders were garlanded as Northern Ireland's elder statesmen. Stephen Carroll, whose funeral was held last Friday, was a policeman for 24 years, first in the Royal Ulster Constabulary and then – when that was disbanded – in the new Police Service of Northern Ireland. He was a Catholic, which makes his initial decision to join the RUC doubly brave, since Catholic policemen were particularly targeted for assassination by the Provisional IRA. During many years of Mr Carroll's exemplary career, Martin McGuinness would have been an unrepentant apologist for his murder. McGuinness knows this, of course. He also knows that when he describes the Continuity IRA as "traitors to the island of Ireland" – by which he means traitors to the spirit of Irish unity – it does not quite make sense. Dissident republicans are certainly traitors to present Sinn Fein policy, and also to human decency, but their behaviour is perfectly in keeping with the mores of militant republicanism which McGuinness himself so long espoused. "Physical force republicanism" has always annexed for itself the role of keeper of the sacred national flame, to be kept burning by "blood sacrifice" regardless of the wishes of the majority of Irish people. Patrick Pearse cared nothing for the more moderate views of ordinary Dubliners when he and his small band of rebels briefly seized control of the city in Easter 1916. Nor did McGuinness advocate that the IRA campaign be halted at a time when the majority of Northern Irish Catholics were voting for Sinn Fein's peaceful nationalist rival, the SDLP. For the Real and Continuity IRA and their supporters, Sinn Fein represents a "sell-out". The dissidents don't mind being hated, because they believe that they are right. There is no denying that Ireland is a different place than it was in the 1970s: more prosperous and less politically feverish. But the dissidents' campaign will seek to generate fear, and fear has fast-spreading, unpredictable roots. Sinn Fein, newly muzzled by democracy, cannot destroy dissident republicanism in the IRA's traditional style, by sending men with balaclavas and hurley sticks round to disable future operations in brutally literal fashion. It will have to give its full backing to the dark arts of intelligence-gathering and rigorous surveillance, this time on behalf of the state. And that is likely to be an infinitely more difficult, tortured decision for Messrs McGuinness and Adams than any of their much-applauded statements last week. |
|
15 Mar 09 - 02:01 PM (#2589448) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Teribus The second article by Charles Moore: When you're fighting terrorists, 'the vast majority' is not enough Whether in Northern Ireland or among Britain's Muslims, extremists will exploit the reasonable majority, argues Charles Moore. By Charles Moore Last Updated: 7:20PM GMT 13 Mar 2009 Appearing on the BBC's Question Time on Thursday, I felt frustration. It seemed to me that good people, both on the panel and in the audience, had somehow been led into the wrong place. In a sense, we were all agreed. Everyone condemned the killings of two soldiers and a policeman in Northern Ireland. And everyone, except for one Muslim member of the audience, condemned the demonstrators who had insulted the returning members of the Royal Anglian Regiment in Luton. Hearts were in the right place. But the arguments put forward took too much comfort from the concept of the "vast majority". It is true – as was demonstrated across the province this week – that the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland want no return to violence. It is also true that the vast majority of British Muslims reject the notion that British soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are, to use the disgusting words on the Luton placards, "cowards", "butchers" and "murderers". This truth is very important: if it were not true, we could not survive as a nation. But it is not as comforting as people seem to think. All the Question Time panel, except for me, said that the demonstrations in Ulster proved that the "peace process" was secure. Yet the vast majority in Northern Ireland have always hated the violence. The two women who led the wildly popular Women for Peace movement there in the Seventies were awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, but their campaign failed. That most people want peace is, sadly, not enough. At the height of the Troubles, Sinn Fein never commanded more than 10 per cent of the popular vote, and active members of the IRA were numbered in hundreds. This did not stop the terrorists from gaining power way above their numbers. Indeed, you could say that is the whole point of terrorism – why would you need the terror if you had the majority support? Similarly, tiny numbers of Muslims turn out to insult our troops or threaten those who draw cartoons of their prophet Mohammed. Most British Muslims have little difficulty in condemning such behaviour, let alone the London Tube bombings. But what happens in both cases is that the extremists exploit something dark and dangerous within the community from which they come. Because of the history of violence in Irish nationalism, the IRA could always claim a certain authenticity. And when it did so, it could find some leading nationalist figures who would make excuses. There were some Catholic priests, even the odd cardinal, who would be equivocal in condemning terror, some mainstream politicians, including the crooked Irish prime minister Charles Haughey, who found it useful to give a bit of space to the men of violence. Today, that ambiguous space is at the heart of government in Northern Ireland. Martin McGuinness has become the deputy first minister without ever forswearing the legitimacy of violence. The killers of Pc Carroll, whom he now condemns, were the inheritors of what he did 20 years ago. His quarrel with them seems only, to use a favourite word of his friend Gerry Adams, "strategic". Among Muslims in Britain, such ambiguities can also be found. There is a strong strand in the current state of Islam which sees the religion as a political project. This creed, often called "Islamism", holds that no society is legitimate unless it imposes sharia – the law of God. There is no doctrine of tolerance, and a complete rejection of secular or Christian rule. Islamism spreads much more widely than the active advocates of violence. I have tried to get the Muslim Council of Britain, a sort of TUC of British Islam, to condemn the murder or kidnapping of British troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, and it has always avoided doing so. So when, as happened on Question Time, people say that the Luton demonstrators "have nothing to do with Islam" and so should not be described as Muslims in the media, they are missing a key fact. So are the people who say that Irish republican killers should be called "common criminals". The key fact is that the extremists do draw on wider political or religious traditions in forming their views; and their actions do resonate among many from those traditions. If, as in Germany this week, a deranged young man walks into a school and shoots people, it is tragic, but it is not part of a movement. Terrorism committed by Muslims in the name of Islam (which forms – that phrase again – the vast majority of terrorist acts in the world since September 11, 2001), or by Irish republicans, is. Since the problem is quite wide, we need, as a nation, to defend ourselves against it. We are choosing the wrong way of doing so. We so doubt our own legitimacy that we feel the need to delegate the task to our foes. Our Government feels that the only way to run Northern Ireland is to hand nearly half of it to Sinn Fein. On the mainland, the Prevent programme, designed to combat violent extremism, often empowers and pays extremist Islamists on the grounds that only they can restrain their even wilder brethren. The shadow spokesman on these matters, Paul Goodman, has been trying for weeks to get the Government to tell him which Muslim groups are getting the money. So far, it can't or won't. For all we know, it could be offering fodder to a Trojan horse. This appeasement quickly exacts a price. The extremists are much more aware than we are that the front line of the rule of law matters. So they demand that the front line be broken. Sinn Fein made sure, as a condition of entering government, that Tony Blair would abolish its most formidable adversary, the Royal Ulster Constabulary. One reason that three members of the security forces died this week is that we no longer have the police and security knowledge needed to prevent such attacks. In facing militant Islam, the police, attacked for "institutional racism" and "Islamophobia", effectively seek "Muslim permission" for legitimate inquiries. This risks hampering proper police work. Guess whom the Bedfordshire Police arrested in Luton. Not the demonstrators with their revolting insults, but the members of the soldier-supporting public who threw things at them. Why, when you think about it, were we so angered by the Luton demonstration? First, because of human sympathy for the soldiers who have undergone so much. But I would suggest another reason – an impotent rage at our public authorities, who demand so much of those who defend the realm, but no longer understand what the defence of the realm entails. |
|
15 Mar 09 - 05:00 PM (#2589578) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Keith A of Hertford What happened to However, this thread is limited to regular Mudcat participants who use consistent posting names. ???? |
|
15 Mar 09 - 05:22 PM (#2589591) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Keith A of Hertford Or 40 screen cut and paste jobs?(a link provided) |
|
15 Mar 09 - 05:48 PM (#2589610) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Ireland leadf. did this "1948 a General Army Convention issued General Order No. 8 prohibiting "any armed action whatsoever" against the forces of the Republic of Ireland."not take care of that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Campaign_(IRA) |
|
15 Mar 09 - 06:52 PM (#2589653) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: MartinRyan GuestAR I take it that by "all of us" you mean Guests - singly, in pairs or in battalions? Regards |
|
15 Mar 09 - 07:07 PM (#2589665) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: greg stephens Ah, dear old GuestAR. Decided if you are England, Scotland, Ireland or America yet? The old carbon footprint's going up by the minute. |
|
15 Mar 09 - 08:12 PM (#2589707) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Big Mick Let's get a couple of things straight. First off, I would never allow a thread to be closed because a Mod (me or any other) got their feelings hurt. If one decides to engage in debate, they must be ready for any heat generated by their views. It is what it means when you post in a forum. I have been around this place longer than any of you in the debate. Check my record and you will see that I am a person of strong opinion, and usually an informed opinion based on the facts as I see them. I have taken heat for my views and praise for my views, and had some of them outright ignored. If you think I dropped out of sight because any one of you intimidated me, or hurt my feelings, with your blazing knowledge and skewed facts, you need to let a little air out of yourself. You are puffed up way beyond reality. The fact is that it is the first half of March. If any of you were working Irish musicians instead of half baked sideline pundits, you would know that I barely have enough time to sleep, let alone be online. My schedule is very hectic until about the 28th or so of this month. As to returning fire on your skewed, gratuitous, and outright false assertions, I told you up the thread that I am tired of it. I pointed out exactly what I think TB is, and why I think that K of H, is just a mouthpiece for a certain point of view. I have been through this so many times that I am not doing it again. It is my opinion that in their denial of any culpability on the part or the British government over 500 years, when the historical evidence is so clear as to remove any doubt of the subjugation of the Irish people and their culture, as well as the theft of their resources, the deliberate playing of the Orange Card, the abetting of the Orange paramilitary in their crimes against Catholics and their children, and their denial of the cruelty in their detention/interrogation/imprisonment without charge tactics as attested to by groups like Amnesty International,....... the very fact that these two refuse to acknowledge what lies at the root of this, is why it is not worth my time to respond to anymore of their prattle. This ends my "member" comment and the next post.......... |
|
15 Mar 09 - 08:26 PM (#2589716) Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ? From: Big Mick ...... is where I am putting on my Moderator hat. Consider this to be a Mod post, and independent of my personal views on the subject at hand. While my views and sympathies are a matter of record as to the subject at hand, they do not enter into this post. AR, your reference to the place you think "Ireland" is from, is very plainly an attempt to intimidate. You have crossed the line. For years I have tried to maintain that we will have heated exchanges on controversial subjects,such as this issue, but no intimidation. You have attempted, in a subtle way, to do that. You also violated the rule against massive cut 'n paste posts. The latter is deserving of a cautionary warning, the former is worthy of banning you. I am going to warn you now that these are not tolerated, under any circumstances, no matter how subtle. This thread is closed. If anyone wants to discuss this subject any further, start a new thread. But if I witness any further attempts at intimidation, I will personally not rest until you are blocked. Mick -Forum Moderator_ |