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08 Mar 09 - 03:47 PM (#2584033) Subject: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dieing From: wrotham-arms-jen excuse these late night ramblings...but here we go... being a pub landlord that enjoys putting on live music, a few (unnamed) musicians comments on mudcat have hurt. pubs these days do not make a lot of money. if live music is on, and the pub is full, the pub may be breaking even. in my short time in the trade i have seen musicians on their way up and on their way down. i have seen many music venues (pubs included) close. such is life, hard as it is. recently there have been a few mudcatters that have announced that they are quitting the music scene. Coincidentally(?) these are the ones that have slammed the pub landlord as making too much money from their skills. i am sure there are some landlords that take advantage, but in general the sums just dont add up. if a musician was paid based on incomings (takings) and outgoings (staff costs, rent, rates, taxes, stock, licenses, electricity, gas, water, advertising, fire alarm maintenance, pest prevention, cleaning,... etc, etc) they wouldn't be too happy! i am not moaning - i chose to be in this business, but i think that some customers see £3 going into the till as £3 in my pocket, when in reality it is more like 30p. venues that cannot sustain the music business are not in business for long. the venue also has to break even. i have witnessed several local-but-major music events that have been created by musicians that have been a roaring success. good for them! they are not sitting back complaining about the lack of venues - they are creating a platform for their voice. and yet we read about musicians giving up and venues closing - we are our own worst enemies. times are hard for many types of businesses (pubs and musicians included) but if we dont show support and continually create platforms for each other we are all jeopardy of fizzling out. comments? jen |
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08 Mar 09 - 04:04 PM (#2584048) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dieing From: Leadfingers Jen - I have run Folk Clubs , been a Semi Pro Folk singer on the Club circuit AND been an Equity Card Entertainer , Worked Pubs all over , as well as Serious Corporate stuff . Round MY area , very few pubs have a seperate room for a Club , and the ones that DO have a room want as much as a lot of clubs can afford to pay a guest to rent the room to someone who will bring as many as forty or fifty customers a week into their establishment . I have a Great Sympathy for Publicans who get squeezed by some of the Companies that now own so many pubs and have NO concern for them except as Income generators . We are NOT all anti Landlord , per se , Honest . |
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08 Mar 09 - 04:17 PM (#2584058) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: wrotham-arms-jen thanks LF i agree - there are very few pubs with separate rooms (i wish i did) some good friends started a folk club in broadstairs but had to give up due to the few pubs with such rooms wanting to overcharge for their use - we're not all on the right side!!! this type of thing has to be measured on a profitable level over a period of time. i feel that its better to break even, and ... get people in the pub, and ... give jobs to staff, and ... to make a platform for an artist, rather than play it safe and BORING! its not just the rent that causes grief - it includes all the hidden bills as mentioned in my first posting - but you get the gist without me lamenting more. jen |
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08 Mar 09 - 04:56 PM (#2584091) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: melodeonboy I play in a zydeco band. We get, on average, about half a dozen gigs a month, mostly in pubs. I think that, overall, we're treated fairly by pub landlords. Once fuel and a few pints have been paid for, we don't really end up with that much money, and we certainly can't look on it as other than a second income. However, I'm aware that pubs are having a hard time, and it appears to me that pubs are not cheating us but rather paying us what they can afford. On a number of occasions we've played at pubs that I know have barely or not even recouped the fee spent on us in money taken over the bar, and then been rebooked! (Pretty much the same point as you made in your penultimate sentence, Jen.) My comments are perhaps not particularly helpful (or even relevant) to the brave souls who are trying to make a living out of folk music. That must be such hard work. Unfortunately, I don't have any magic answers to their problems. All I can do is wish them well. |
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08 Mar 09 - 05:12 PM (#2584104) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Richard Bridge The present problems of most of those running pubs can be laid at three doors (itself a fine pub, but not my point). Our masters in Brussells laid down requirements for competition. The arch-bitch Thatcher promptly ordered teh dismantling of the tied house system (in general terms). The damned financial engineers promptly constructed a system in which the brewers raised capital by selling their pubs to pubcos (of which perhaps Inntrepreneur was the most notorious, but there are many others, see for example the case of Bellhaven -v- Ord). In the Thatcherite depression, the pubcos raped the desperate who had lost their jobs by offering to let them pubs on fundamentall mendacious projections of turnover, and at accordingly astronomical rents. Then of course they bankrupted and evicted them and siezed like leeches on their next victims. Then of course they clawed back their capital by selling the land to slavering developers who erected ferro-concrete temples to mammon over the objections of the communities from which the heart had been torn. |
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08 Mar 09 - 07:42 PM (#2584213) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Rasener What concerns me more than anything, is to hear folkies say how much trade they bring to a pub. Maybe 30/40 people turn up. A lot of them probably have to drive so can't drink much. Probably on average the publican may get 3 drinks out of each person. Work it out, and that isn't a lot of money taken over the bar for an evening. However, they all go on about how much business they bring into the pub. They go on about how grateful the Landlord should be etc etc. Yes, if nobody is coming into the pub, then something is better than nothing. I know what we pay out to artists and what we take on the bar at our village hall. The people who work their socks off at the village hall do it for no pay. We do not make a lot of money, but then we are not that bothered to make profits as long as we break even. So how a pub makes anything out of a folk evening where they have to pay the acts, staff, overheads etc etc is beyond me. |
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09 Mar 09 - 04:33 AM (#2584426) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: wrotham-arms-jen melodeonboy, thanks for your comments - i think a number of fine local musicians feel the same way as you and that is what keeps my music business alive - bless you all richard, luckily i am not involved in a pubco but my prices have to be set pretty high thanks to the brewery prices. in faversham the railway hotel (also a sheps pub) has a large banner saying 'we are still not as cheap as wetherspoons') lol we cannot compete with many pubcos but hope to provide a better service - a community pub with quality products and staff that take care of its customers. villan, i do put on a fair amount of folk music and in general it doesnt make money, for the very reasons you state. our woodshed sessions are an exception to this since we have a number of local people that enjoy coming to listen to the diversity of the music and who enjoy a few good beers in the process. there are notable exceptions of folk musicians that make folk music work in pubs. norcsalordie, for instance have an amazing effect on a 'non-folkie' audience. they have a great talent for connecting with the audience and the tempo sells a lot of beer! dr beau weber at kentfolk.com has been looking at solutions to resolve the problem of dying live music on a local level. see: kent folk music box i must admit the number of music lovers that smuggle their own drinks into my pub (you know who you are) make my blood boil and make things worse for everybody. next time i see it happening there will be a public flogging jen |
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09 Mar 09 - 05:25 AM (#2584445) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Banjiman Having played at Jen's pub I can't overstate what a friendly and welcoming establishment it is. You deserve to succeed. We look forward to returning in May. Hope we can get your non-folk audience going and maybe bring you in a couple of extras! From an event organisers point of view, pubs rather than halls are far easier venues to put music on.... especially if there is a seperate room BUT it is easier to break even in a village hall.... As long as you are prepared to put in the hard work of providing a bar and food. These are very profitable in this setting where you don't have the overheads of staff etc. Having said that I wish our village pub had not been a victim of Enterprise Inn's greed (and all the other reasons) and was still open.... we'd happily forget the additional revenue (it only gets spent on acts and infrastructure for the club anyway!). We'd take the club (KFFC) back to the pub in a flash if it were to re-open and they wanted us. I always think that this music belongs in the pub. I certainly have not had the experience of getting ripped off by Landlords...... we play quite a few pub gigs and always try and work with them. If the pub has not done well when we've played, we have been known to return half of the fee promised..... we'd rather help the pub to survive and come back and try again. This has been reciprocated and when the pub has done better than expected they have increased our fee. Most people are pretty straight if you give them a chance! Not sure if my ramblings help or not! Paul |
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09 Mar 09 - 06:05 AM (#2584464) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Leadfingers Les - When I talk about 30 0r 40 people at a Folk evening , I am NOT considering it as a Pub Gig , but something run by someone else ! All the Landlord of a pub with a Folk Club has to do is run a bit if heating in winter , lights , and wash glasses ! Everything else is done by the club, including paying the Guest ! So IF a pub has a suitable room , having an EXTRA group . a lot of whom will be passengers will be a reasonable increase in turnover at minimal cost . |
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09 Mar 09 - 06:09 AM (#2584470) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Rasener Ah I see what you mean Terry. Thats a bit different. |
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09 Mar 09 - 06:38 AM (#2584494) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: bubblyrat Not having too many problems in our area ,I am happy to say.At Marlow Bottom Acoustic Club's "Headquarters" in the eponymous village's only pub,"The Pegasus",we have an enthusiastic new management who are happy for us to play there once a month---the other three wednesdays ,we are at three other pubs,viz the "Prince Albert" in Frieth,the "Old Ship" in Cadmore End,and the "Belle Vue" in High Wycombe,at which latter venue we are allowed to set up amps,mics,etc ,and use the venue as a rehearsal for forthcoming gigs for our "Theme" band ( we have THREE next week---Stokenchurch village pub,Sunday,"Irish" theme, the "Pegasus",Tuesday ,Irish (St Patrick's) and Friday,the "Pegasus", a yacht-club dinner,trad. & contemporary ).Please look at our popular website if you'd like to visit us at any of these venues !! We are not charged anything at any of our venues, and,whilst I HATE paying £3.20 for a pint of cider,I don't REALLY mind ,considering how nice (and free !) these venues are.The relationship with "our" landlords is symbiotic,really---We get somewhere nice to play at,and they get,once a month,a little added interest,and free entertainment,for their customers. Works beautifully !! No "back rooms",by the way; all our venues are in-the-bar & "in your face" ! |
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09 Mar 09 - 09:14 AM (#2584591) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: GUEST,Working Radish i must admit the number of music lovers that smuggle their own drinks into my pub (you know who you are) make my blood boil That's so wrong. Digressing slightly, what you said about the low profit margin on drinks got me thinking. I've been known to order a pint of bitter & a pint of tapwater to follow - either because I'm driving or because I over-indulged earlier on. I get thirsty when I'm out (hence the pint) and tend to find soft drinks too cloying, particularly after beer (hence the tapwater). I'm starting to wonder now what could I order that would be alcohol-free & reassuringly expensive. I guess there's always mineral water. Any other ideas? |
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09 Mar 09 - 09:26 AM (#2584598) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: GUEST,Essex Girl I too dislike 'soft drinks', but will drink some of the non-alcoholic beers when I'm driving. Not ideal but at least it tastes marginally like real lager. (I'd much prefer to drink bitter)Unfortunately a lot of pubs do not stock any brands of alcohol free beer of any kind. Both brewers and pubs coul do themselves a favour by supplying low alcohol and alcohol free beers. |
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09 Mar 09 - 09:29 AM (#2584603) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Gedi "I must admit the number of music lovers that smuggle their own drinks into my pub (you know who you are) make my blood boil and make things worse for everybody. next time i see it happening there will be a public flogging" Oooh, Can I watch ; ) I agree with Pip, that is not on. I like the idea of a "Music Box" on the bar (see link above). It seems to me a good way of being able to show your appreciation and as long as the money is being put to good use - ie to provide more music, and not just lining someones pockets, I reckon its a good approach. Ged |
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09 Mar 09 - 09:41 AM (#2584614) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Les in Chorlton I think you will have to stick to tap water Phil, everything else is usually more expensive than bitter. I start of assuming that most people in this game are honest. Landlords, musicians, audience even the 'local' press although they nearly always get something wrong. It seems to be the case that some landlords are much more effective at managing and promoting their pubs than others. Pubs have folk nights, jazz nights, blues nights, darts, quizzes, poker, bridge, palm readings, Ann Summers Parties (I believe) curry nights, car club enthusiasts, darts, dominoes, chess, drafts, pool, TV arrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggg I could go on. Some pubs open the doors and sell beer. In some circumstances this is enough and in some it isn't. If pubs are to survive they will have to do a lot more of those things in my list. We have explored why folk clubs survive and why they don't in some detail. I cannot really sum it up but those of us who run folkie events will have to think very carefully about what is actually possible. The once a week club is only one choice amongst many. Cheers L in C |
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09 Mar 09 - 11:31 AM (#2584693) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Jayto In my area the economy is so tight right now few have the spare cash to go out at all. I am still working alot but man the crowds have dropped. Bookings have slowed alot as well. I have been doing more recording sessions than live gigs. I have been talking to alot of my friends only to hear the same. Things have slowed way down. |
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09 Mar 09 - 01:02 PM (#2584770) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: GUEST,synbyn I think we're more or less on the same side here- if it works well it's a two-sided process-- the pub welcomes we musicians and we bring in enough trade for it to be worth their while. Which does mean that we have a duty to the landlord/landlady to entertain- and that means everyone in the pub must be entertained, not just the folkies, if we are in a bar rather than a clubroom. And I think people like variety- no-one would go to a dubliners session seven nights a week, and equally no-one would listen to bad salads for long. We musicians (moi?)have to involve everyone in the pub and give them a reason to come again- like melodeonboy say, landlords don't mind a little loss at first to build up a following... do they jen? of course they prefer £££s! and then there's an audience for local talent... did i mention there's a woodshed soon? |
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09 Mar 09 - 01:41 PM (#2584816) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: wrotham-arms-jen agreed synbyn - darn i hate it when i do that! no, you didnt mention the woodshed (FRIDAY 20 MAR) some really interseting comments here. just a word of warning - people assume that if a pub is full then the landlord is off on holiday to the caribbean - not necessarily true. bear in mind the overheads. I like the sound of what bubblyrat is doing - brill. one thing that i do at the wrotham arms is that i recommend new musicians to play for free on a thursday night - it gives them a free stage to try their live music out and if it goes down well i tend to book them for a friday/saturday. we have some bands that now play regularly that started this way. it does make me feel like a bad simon cowell if the music is not right, but it helps to ensure the music is a good fit for the venue. jen |
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09 Mar 09 - 07:12 PM (#2585140) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Rafflesbear Jen - Bless you for picking out Norcsalordie by name I have the very great pleasure of following them round and time and again we get positive comments from non-folkies - just last week at The Man of Kent in Rochester someone came up to us and said "if I'd known what you played (folk music) I wouldn't have come, but you were great" - in Somerset we had the comment "you've just converted someone who hates folk music, I was meant to be going home an hour and a half ago" Folk music can be its own worst enemy and so often fails to go beyond the clubs and reach out to the wider public on their own turf this is a quote from the Norcsalordie website - "We want to bring folk music to life - to rescue Folk and Traditional music from its staid musty image. We want to take it out of its little box and share it with as wide an audience as possible - reaching people who would never consider going to a folk club while still appealing to dedicated folk fans with open minds. We are passionate about it - our motivation is to see you out there in the audience really enjoying yourselves at our gigs - singing, clapping and dancing." The irony is that these guys have great difficulty getting booked by folk clubs! We look forward to seeing you again on Friday May 1st Jen, and hope that we may have made just one or two people curious enough to support the both of us by turning up then |
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09 Mar 09 - 11:29 PM (#2585268) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Effsee "i must admit the number of music lovers that smuggle their own drinks into my pub (you know who you are) make my blood boil and make things worse for everybody"... Way out of order! Shame them! |
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10 Mar 09 - 01:04 PM (#2585727) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: GUEST,Working Radish [Norcsalordie] "We want to bring folk music to life - to rescue Folk and Traditional music from its staid musty image. We want to take it out of its little box" The irony is that these guys have great difficulty getting booked by folk clubs! Irony? I'm amazed they get any bookings from folk clubs after announcing themselves like that. "Hallo, is that the quaint little box where closed-minded purists go to practise a dead art form? Why don't you book us, we're much better than the staid musty purists you usually... hallo? hallo?" |
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10 Mar 09 - 05:43 PM (#2585907) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Rafflesbear A point well made Pip but it would probably carry more weight were it not in a thread entitled 'Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying' - a thread started by someone who loves the music and is actively trying to promote it often at their own cost and one of a number of threads on the same theme recently as for Norcsalordie - others speak for them Breath of fresh air for the folk scene - great duo (folk club website) I don't know much about folk music, but I do enjoy watching/listening to you guys - Keep it up (comment on MySpace) I've never seen so many smiling faces in a Folk Club (floorsinger) Norcsalordie are a fine young duo that have the talent to take a worn out, tired old folk song, give it a good kick up the ass, a shake down and produce something sparkling and fresh (folk organiser) Best band in Broadstairs 2008 (video posted on YouTube) The most difficult question they have to answer when knocking on the door of a live music pub is "what kind of music do you play" - answer 'Folk' and the chance of a booking often disappears IMO if we are not to go round in ever decreasing circles we should at least be ready to accept the challenge of the young - I have sat through my fill of dirges however technically brilliant As for other drinks you could order you could try a 'Spetzi' - a combination of 50/50 cola + fanta or where fanta isn't available 'Mud' = cola + orange juice |
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10 Mar 09 - 07:09 PM (#2585982) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Phil Edwards I don't have a problem with the music - they sound like a lot of fun - just the attitude. If I hear someone talking about folk music as tired & boring & in need of a kick up the bum, I tend to think that person doesn't much like folk music. I realise that the "folk" label doesn't open a lot of doors, so saying "it's folk - but it's different and exciting!" makes sense for Norcsalordie themselves. It just doesn't do the rest of us any favours - particularly those of us who think traditional music is different and exciting, once you give it a listen. |
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12 Mar 09 - 04:45 PM (#2587436) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Rafflesbear I guess a booking is out then ? |
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12 Mar 09 - 07:18 PM (#2587579) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Phil Edwards Not my call, you may be glad to hear! |
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13 Mar 09 - 12:45 AM (#2587753) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: M.Ted I'd say it was a very shrewd marketing tactic to go against the stereotype--the wider audiences are drawn to what seems fresh, new, and iconoclastic, though they enjoy it more when it is actually turns out to be familiar.. |
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13 Mar 09 - 03:22 AM (#2587781) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Perhaps you should not just hire musicians, just to have musicians playing in your pub...but rather, go out of your way to find a caliber of musicians, that would be a draw!! Not only that, establish a reputation, of having ass kicking great musicians playing in your pub, and pay them a percentage of the gate....and if they are good enough, even better known, charge a cover. Good musicians have their following, that should help fill the house. Perhaps not being so 'cheap' is in your taste, rather than in your pay scale...Good luck! |
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13 Mar 09 - 05:28 AM (#2587828) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Phil Edwards I'd say it was a very shrewd marketing tactic to go against the stereotype Sure, but what I don't like is that it confirms the stereotype at the same time, and applies it to everyone who's not Norcsalordie. As I said before, it doesn't do the rest of us any favours. |
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13 Mar 09 - 05:39 AM (#2587831) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: breezy Norcsalordie, well the names a bugger to start with terrific pub duo with only the youtube clips to judge from so I dont think this will give a balanced picture of them rough around the edges, great energy and enthusiasm , great voice, solid harmonies, adequate guitar strummer, known popular possibly hackneyed repertoire - but it works so dont knock it - and thats all what most ordinary punters want, however as for being a folk club main guest I would say having been a club orgamiser, they are not refined enough for 'folk club' no subtlty but absolutely great as club residents residents. So thats me psyched up for tomoroow's pub gig at the Duke of Clarence in Luton , plus some. And as for tonight in Orpington well maybe as the audience are great listeners and you can hear pin drops, maybe the quality of songs will be more prominent. They also remind me of a slimmed down skinners rats of the old days, all they need is a double bass player with a loud voice who looks like an RAF pilot. Energy of Sullivan and Winsor, do they do 'Sylvest' Good luck to them, hope they go to hear Eric Bogle whilst he's over hear this summer to catch the original source of 'No Man's Land' |
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13 Mar 09 - 05:42 AM (#2587833) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Austin P I have a lot of sympathy for struggling landlords, but too many try and bump up profits by charging exorbitant prices for soft drinks / mixers. A Pint of Cola or Bitter lemon can be £3 in many places. Which annoys me when I am being responsible and not drink-driving. There are something like 6 pubs a week closing in Hampshire. The smoking ban hasn't helped either. When driving I usually drink 'Weasel Piss' (as it's known round here) - tap water with Lime cordial in it. Most pubs will charge you 50p (they make as much on it as a pint in most cases). If they ask for much more than that, laugh and walk away ... AP |
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13 Mar 09 - 06:48 AM (#2587856) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Les in Chorlton Austin, perhaps you should consider carrying your own weasel. As Diz Dizzly used to say "I always carry Brandy in case I get bitten by a snake - which I also carry" Yes I know - load of old rubbish. I have bored on this before but I think "Folk" can be presented in a wide variety of ways: singarounds, tune sessions, once a week, once a month folk clubs, Barn Dances and so on. Perhaps some events work better in some places and parts of the country than others. I often wonder that if I can try harder to keep our Singaround as secret and obscure as possible it will gain "Cult", careful now, status and hence become more interesting and possibly popular. Cheers L in C |
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13 Mar 09 - 07:23 AM (#2587869) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Marje I agree about soft drink prices, Austin. I had half a pint of soda water the other night, and was charged £1.20 (that's one pound 20, in case the symbol comes out wrong) It's just the stuff out of the pipe that they add as a mixer to other drinks, and I think that's exorbitant. I decided to make it last all evening (although a kind onlooker did buy all the session players a drink, so I had an orange juice later.) Then last night I asked (in a different pub) for a bottle of mineral water and it cost £1.40. I could have had half of bitter for that price, and on many occasions I would do so, but in this instance I wanted to stick to soft drinks. I can buy 2 litres of fizzy water in a supermarket for 17 pence. If a pub charges me 10 times or even 15 times that price - say 30p or 50p for a half-pint - I'll be happy. But to charge me 40 times that price is unreasonable, and they deserve to go out of business if that's the best they can do. Marje |
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13 Mar 09 - 10:27 AM (#2587965) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: M.Ted Here's what kills folk music off: " they are not refined enough for 'folk club' no subtl(e)ty." and "I had half a pint of soda water the other night, and was charged £1.20 .. and I think that's exorbitant." People who like to have fun and don't pinch their pennies are the ones that win out in the world of entertainment. |
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13 Mar 09 - 10:33 AM (#2587967) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: WFDU - Ron Olesko No club will last long if people sit and nurse a fizzy water for an entire evening. Your fun comes out of someones pocket. The person behind the bar is getting a living wage and the owner of the bar has expenses to cover. They do not host events as a public service - someone needs to pay the piper and the person pouring! |
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13 Mar 09 - 11:06 AM (#2587992) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: SINSULL And...Michael Jackson just sold out his UK tour of 1M+ tickets ranging in price from 75 pounds to 10,000. Go figure. |
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13 Mar 09 - 11:20 AM (#2588006) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: M.Ted It's not hard to figure--he puts on a great show, and people t are willing to pay for it. He'd be worth seeing, too, just don't take the kids. |
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13 Mar 09 - 12:57 PM (#2588106) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Marje I'd better make one thing clear: when I mentioned the cost of the fizzy water, I was referring to a session in which we, the session players, were advertised in the pub as the "Folk Evening", and our music was the only point of interest in a pub which is struggling to survive and is generally almost empty. My fun wasn't "coming out of anyone's pocket" - we were providing the entertainment for ourselves and for others, for free. I don't expect necessarily to get a free drink for playing (although it's nice when we do) but I don't think it's too much to ask that there be one reasonably priced soft drink for those who don't happen to want alcohol on that occasion, whether they're musicians or just general pub-goers. Raising the price of soft drinks to equal those of alcoholic drinks (which include duty etc) is a mean trick, and does nothing to encourage people to use the pub. Marje |
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13 Mar 09 - 04:40 PM (#2588272) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: M.Ted I wasn't clear that you were actually performing, Marje, though it was inferred parenthetically. That is a different issue completely. My point still stands, and it simply is that people who go out for an evening of entertainment should not begrudge their hosts or their entertainers a profit, whether it is charged at the door, or added to the price of drinks or food. |
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13 Mar 09 - 09:05 PM (#2588467) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: melodeonboy "It's not hard to figure--he puts on a great show, and people t are willing to pay for it. He'd be worth seeing, too" Yes, and have you seen the Emperor's new clothes? They're beautiful! |
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13 Mar 09 - 09:11 PM (#2588469) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Tim Leaning Recently been in pubs charging 50p for a pint of orange squash and £1.20 for the same. I know muso's who think they should be bought drinks all night and those who are just glad for somewhere they can all play. There are good uns and bad uns in all walks of life I reckon. |
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17 Mar 09 - 10:49 AM (#2591009) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: GUEST,Rafflesbear on leave Thanks for your assessment Breezy - I'd really love you to see them live because YouTube and a 19 inch screen can't do justice to the real thing exploding in front of you - as for folk club main guests, have a word with the good people of Eltham Folkmob and Blackheath Folk Club As for their repertoire they do have quite a number of original songs but as many of those are currently awaiting their new album to be released they are not going on YouTube yet - plus they do research quite obscure songs One of the problems they have is being patronised because they are both still the right side of thirty. They are victims of Techno-Babble Jousting where some older time served musicians try to catch them out by quoting guitar tunings and chord sequences just to test them out - I have witnessed this on a number of occasions - yes Martin does know which way round his guitar goes! :-) Also they recently played an extended floorspot at a club - they had just finished a very competent and well received version of The Barley Mow when one of the residents said in a loud voice for all to hear "you know you got that wrong don't you" and proceeded to sing his version And yes they are appearing at Broadstairs and are hoping to catch Eric Bogle's performance if they are not playing themselves and no they don't do Sylvest - so many songs to sing so little time to do it |
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17 Mar 09 - 11:25 AM (#2591048) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Austin P Ron: Marje surely has it right, - my pint was if Landlords only make 30p on a pint of Bitter why can't they apply the same margin to soft drinks?. I agree they have to make a profit but £1.40 for a pint of carbonated water is literally taking the piss, and it puts people off. Singing is thirsty work! AP |
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17 Mar 09 - 11:33 AM (#2591054) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Girl Friday The Fox And Hounds in Knatts Valley is withdrawing funding from end of April. They have paid for our guests since they took over the pub last February. Every time they lose money. The drinks have gone up in price considerably and you have to drive to get there, so even more reason to restrict drinking. Pity it, like Wrotham Arms, and The Barge in Gillingham are open bars. Collection for guests is poor substitute for entry fees. |
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17 Mar 09 - 11:39 AM (#2591059) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: HipflaskAndy Hi, Les in C - Duncan here.... Just a point of info - you know how pedantic we folkies are! ;0) Regarding your post.... >As Diz Dizzly used to say "I always carry Brandy in case I get bitten by a snake - which I also carry"< You'll notice my (sopposed) jokey handle on here is HipflaskAndy. It comes from the W C Fields quote (I forget the film!) which runs... 'I keep a hipflask handy in case I see a snake - which I also keep handy!' It's good to see Diz raided excellent sources! Cheers - Duncan (McFarlane) |
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17 Mar 09 - 11:55 AM (#2591070) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Betsy Re the subject :- It's always happened , especially the Quitting angle. It's evolution, e.g. you can't make a reasonable living no matter how good you are, perhaps the shine of doing it for a living wears off and the mundane travel is also very difficult. There are probably quite a few other reasons. Groups are almost impossible to keep "on the road" because of cost. Loads of top class performers have quit - but I believe most are happy with their decision and they rarely lose their ability, so they still retain their art. Problem is , they don't seem to get replaced. |
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17 Mar 09 - 12:15 PM (#2591088) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: GUEST,Rafflesbear on leave I have no objection to paying inflated prices for soft drinks when live entertainment is being provided. I have gone out for the evening to enjoy myself and the pub is not charging an entrance fee - so I have that extra fiver in my pocket If that is spread across my drinks for the evening I come off even. I am aware of that equation before I start so I don't worry about it and can enjoy the music and I come away happy - especially as I have spent less overall than if I were buying alcohol - one of the few benefits of being the driver |
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17 Mar 09 - 12:15 PM (#2591089) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: greg stephens A very interesting thread, congratulations to wrotham-arms-jen for raising this. There are plenty of discussions elsewhere about folk clubs that meet in pubs, it is good to concentrate for a while on folk music in the wild (as opposed to the zoo/hothouse/nursery or however you might term the "folk scene". The economics is something we should all consider. I gather this Wrotham Arrms is somewhere in Kent near Broadstairs from the discussion; I don't know what the going rate is for pub bands round there, but in my patch(NW England, Stoke-on-Trent), £100-150 would probably be the norm.Clearly no living to be made for the musicians at that rate(if there is a duo or larger number involved). But absolutely no riches for the landlord either. A good night in our local with a band on is highly unlikely to generate enough extra money to pay the musicians and extra staff involved. At best, it gets the pub humming and people come back for a drink on the quiet nights. I absolutely congratulate the landlords of pubs who put on music, they are sticking their necks out and deserve all the praise we can give them. It doesn't matter what they put on, folk, rock whatever. If they've got any sense they'll book bands that people like, and it'll be good. Well played Jen, and any other landlords who put bands on. And a special congratulations to this Norcsalordie, who I haven't seen or heard but are obviously doing a fantastic job, judging what people are saying on this thread (both pro and anti). Folk music was created by the people for the people, and if this band is playing a version of it that is actually accessible to people in the public bar of a pub, well congratulations is all I can say. Folk clubs are full of musicians who wouldn't last five minutes faced with an actual audience of ordinary folk, so hats off to a band who seem to be making a point of taking the people's music back to the people. |
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17 Mar 09 - 12:27 PM (#2591097) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: GUEST,Rafflesbear on leave Greg - I love you Your timing is perfect Norcsalordie are on tomorrow night in the Swan Inn - 18 Stafford Street - Stone - Staffordshire - ST15 8QW start about 9 pm - would really like to see you there - please come and say hallo |
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17 Mar 09 - 12:48 PM (#2591120) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: greg stephens Rafflesbear:I would love to come to Stone and hear this jolly crew. Who are you and how will I recognise you? Are you, for example, a member of Norcsalordie pretending to be a fan, for the purpose of this thread? |
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17 Mar 09 - 12:59 PM (#2591131) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Banjiman "Folk clubs are full of musicians who wouldn't last five minutes faced with an actual audience of ordinary folk" You might be surprised Greg, I think quite a few of us do some "moonlighting" out in the real world! Tend to sell more CDs to the "normals" as well. |
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17 Mar 09 - 01:06 PM (#2591138) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Stringsinger i think what we are looking at is a shift in the nature of how music interacts with society. It was assumed in the US that professionalism was attached to the amount of income a musician receives. Now with the economic slump in the world music has become less of a commodity and more of an avocation. I think this is good news for folk music in general. There will always be those who find a living in it, however. This is not dependent on economic or social conditions but a confluence of acceptance by the public and a willingness to look beyond the usual parameters of folkdom for an audience. Frank |
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17 Mar 09 - 01:07 PM (#2591139) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: greg stephens I have just done a little research as someone is suggesting I go and see this Norcsalordie, and I don't know much about them (except they seem to be able to enthuse and annoy folkies, which sounds a reasonable combination to me!). I have just looked at their schedule and I am flabbergasted. They are the real deal and no mistake. Criss-crossing England playing pubs, night after night. Shrewsbury to Grantham to Shrewsbury. Fantastic stuff, fair play to them. I shall assuredly go and see them in Stone tomorrow, and I will shake their hands.(if they are too loud I won't stay, I think they may bne a bit young for me) Their schedule reminds of the Boat Band twenty years ago, another band that played pubs all the time, but never got booked in folk clubs. For your interest, here is the current week of Norcsalordie's travels which I found on their website.: read and admire. I honestly didn't think there was anybody doing this any more. Friday 13th - 21:00 Six Bells - 59 Ditherington Road - Shrewsbury - Shropshire - SY1 4BD Saturday 14th - 20:30 Nobody Inn - North Street - Grantham - NG31 6NU Sunday 15th - 20:30 Seven Stars - Old Coleham - Shrewsbury - SY3 7BP Tuesday 17th - 20:30 ST PATRICK'S DAY - Brennans Bar - 13 Winsover Road - Spalding - PE11 1EG Wednesday 18th - 21.30 Swan Inn - 18 Stafford Street - Stone - Staffordshire - ST15 8QW Friday 20th - 20:00 Crown & Anchor - Senwick Road - Wellingborough - Northants - NN8 1NJ Saturday 21st - 21:00 The White Hart - 51/52 East Reach - Taunton - Somerset - TA1 3EZ |
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17 Mar 09 - 01:12 PM (#2591145) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: The Sandman I havent quit yet.http://www.dickmiles.com |
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18 Mar 09 - 07:27 AM (#2591636) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: GUEST,Rafflesbear on leave Hi Greg - and anyone else who might fancy a trip to Stone tonight to support 'Folk music in the Wild' (I like that) No I am not a member of the band although their progress and success is dear to me. Really glad you will be checking them out tonight that's the first barrier down :-) - I don't think I can say this without sounding corny but they really do appeal to folk of all ages - children to pensioners and most importantly all the ages in between I shall be wearing the Norcsalordie tee-shirt - black with a large red N and the slogan "Folk for the Living" - that should upset a few more :-) This week has been busy but unfortunately they have had a couple of late cancellations phoned through to them - the Crown and Anchor is putting back their gig and the White Hart is struggling for custom. On the bright side they were rebooked by the Six Bells, the Nobody Inn booked them for St Georges weekend this year and St Patrick's weekend 2010, the Seven Stars gave them three more dates for this year and last night Brennan's Bar asked them to play again for St Patrick's day 2010 Following this band you really get to see the health or otherwise of the pubs around the country - they have played to as few as two people and at other times it has been vitually impossible to get to the bar. Normally they have to pay for their own drinks although they drink as much tap water as anything but a few pubs will stand them the first round - others are more generous and one gave them a meal before the start. Unfortunately they no longer appear at that one through intimidation from a very small section of the audience who did not recognise their own musical heritage and accused them of being Irish sympathisers although they had not sung a single Irish song all night! On a very few occasions they have received a bonus payment at the end of the gig and a couple of times landlords have renaged on the previously agreed fee thereby putting themselves on the blacklist - verbal contracts aren't worth the paper they are written on. At times when negotiating fees it has become apparent that the pub is simply after entertainment on the cheap but their days of playing for a pie and a pint are long gone At the moment it is becoming more difficult to sell CDs which is probably a recession thing as in the past they have sold up to seven cds in a night - and the occasional Folk for the Living tee-shirt SatNav is a blessing when visiting so many different venues and the arrival time prediction facility is a godsend Very rarely do they get the rapt attention of the audience - normally the life of the pub continues around them so a PA is essential and the volume depends on the venue really - up for pubs that normally host rock music and down for the quieter pubs. It is of course largely possible for the audience to select their own preferred volume by where they position themselves in the pub as the sound reduces rapidly the more bodies it passes As for the audience reception there are occasions when you really think that nobody is paying the slightest attention and you are flogging the proverbial dead horse - songs finish and nobody claps all evening until they say thank you and goodnight and the cries of 'more' start up and they won't let them go Following the band has been a real treat and I feel privileged to have been along for the ride |
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18 Mar 09 - 07:50 AM (#2591646) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Leadfingers With regard to Landlords trying to NOT agree to pay , Membership of MU does include FREE legal assistance - and a verbal contract is STILL a contract ! |
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18 Mar 09 - 07:56 AM (#2591652) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: GUEST,Working Radish the slogan "Folk for the Living" - that should upset a few more Yes, I think it probably will. Very mixed feelings about this bunch - opening doors is great, but do they have to slam them shut behind them? |
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18 Mar 09 - 08:52 AM (#2591691) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: melodeonboy 'Also they recently played an extended floorspot at a club - they had just finished a very competent and well received version of The Barley Mow when one of the residents said in a loud voice for all to hear "you know you got that wrong don't you" and proceeded to sing his version' That's appalling! No wonder people get turned off if there are bloody wiseacres around who do that. |
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18 Mar 09 - 09:15 AM (#2591700) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Gedi They sound an interesting pair, this Noscalardie (sp? Does that actually mean anything?)- they sound a bit like an English "Dubliners". But I have to agree with Pip - "Folk for the Living" is pretty disparaging to the rest of us who enjoy immenseley the great tradition that is English Folk. And it will no doubt put off others who might otherwise have visited their local folk clubs. I wish them well but please, ask them not to trash the rest of us in their travels. Ged |
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18 Mar 09 - 09:21 AM (#2591703) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: TheSnail It does seem to be damning yourself with faint praise to say that you stand out against the mediocrity of everybody else. |
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18 Mar 09 - 12:07 PM (#2591822) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: GUEST,Rafflesbear on leave Gedi - no I don't think Noscalardie does mean anything - unlike Norcsalordie In Kent where they have gained a slim toehold within the establishment they have become friendly with Pig's Ear - a very traditional band. Norcsalordie had a gig in Suffolk at a rock pub and went down very well. They have used this contact to get a gig for Pig's Ear. Far from slamming doors that is opening them. Expose people to folk music they like and they may wish to experiment further |
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18 Mar 09 - 12:39 PM (#2591849) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Phil Edwards Expose people to folk music they like and they may wish to experiment further "Hey, you're not like all those half-dead beardie Aran-wearing finger-in-ear folkies... and you're not like all those half-dead beardie Aran-wearing finger-in-ear folkies... and he's not... and she certainly isn't... and he's got a beard and he's wearing an Aran jumper and he's old enough for a bus pass, but he's actually rather good..." Yes, maybe they're setting people up for a voyage of discovery into the world of trad. Which is great. (That's the definition of having mixed feelings - some of them are positive!) I just wish it could start with "we're folk and we're great" - not "most folk is crap but we're great". |
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18 Mar 09 - 05:01 PM (#2592079) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Sandy Mc Lean Reluctantly I wade into this thread because I know nothing about British pubs or their music but this may cast a bit of insight from an outsider. I do not often play at venues where alcohol is served because I find that the audience becomes noisy and less attentive as consumption increases. I usually play without expectation of compensation so I am independant as Hell. Mostly I play and sing at fundraisers, benefits etc. with a concert rather than a pub format. All that being said friends of mine, a few years ago, asked me to drop into a local pub where they were playing. They are a very talented family group of twelve siblings and each Saturday afternoon a few of them would perform there and the door receipts and proceeds from a 50/50 draw were to go to a local hospital. The place would be packed each Saturday, the pub owners made good on beer sales and the hospital benefited as well. I would be asked, and was always happy to do a couple of songs for a good cause, but for the most part I was audience. One day a younger brother in this sibling group brought with him a bottle of water to be consumed while he played. He was told in no uncertain terms by the pub owner that he was not permitted to bring his own water but would have to purchase the same at the bar. The oldest brother, the leader of the group, told the others to pack their instruments and they left never to return. They had no trouble finding another place to play but that pub never again was packed on a Saturday afternoon. All for the price of a bottle of water. |
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19 Mar 09 - 04:26 AM (#2592367) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: wrotham-arms-jen Sandy, to me a 'public house' means that - as soon as you start charging a door fee it loses that quality. As far as I know Britain is the only place with true pubs where you invite people into your home to buy a drink. The relationship between landlord and customer is not a service relationship, but a friend. That is why there is no tipping in pubs. As soon as there is a door fee, in my mind, it is not a pub, but a bar. Anyway, I think your point was that the landlord overreacted to a bottle of water that was brought in by one of the paid musicians. I wholeheartedly agree - that is excessive. I personally have told bands off for bringing their own alcoholic drinks into my establishment and have witnessed non-paid musicians at sessions topping up a glass of water with spirits. This is what I find unacceptable. It is a judgment call as to raising the issue and it sounds like your chap made a big mistake which i am sure he regretted. I think the main point of starting this thread (no, not to advertise Norcs, lol) was to state that we need to support each other. It is obvious from the responses that there are a lot of good musicians who understand the plight of the venue, but in my experience many do not. A young duo from Deal had their first gig at my pub with the previous landlord. When I took over the pub I recognised that they were underpaid so I started paying them more. They have done well and are playing some really big gigs, and so they have decided to stop playing pubs. They announced this a few days before a gig at my pub. I can understand the concept of this, but to slam the people that gave you the start seems very wrong. I wasnt sure if i should start this thread, but am glad i did - some really insightful comments. jen |
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19 Mar 09 - 06:30 AM (#2592421) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: GUEST,Rafflesbear on leave As Jen says this isn't a Norcsalordie thread so briefly and finally (from me) - To capture people's hearts and minds you first have to capture their ears If this debate should become even a tiny part of making folk musicians look in the mirror and start thinking outside the (little) box then however small I think they will have made a contribution to the genre I have started a new thread - "Feral Folk in the UK" for anyone to add their gigs outside the normal folk scene |
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19 Mar 09 - 10:36 AM (#2592591) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Sandy Mc Lean Thanks Jen, The door charge was a free will donation collected by the performing family and all of it went the hospital. The family were not paid to perform although some made their living from music. It was an arrangement between the owner and this family that was to benefit the hospital. Of course the owner did very well on bar sales that would normally be low on a Saturday afternoon and the family had a venue to get together and jam among themselves and with friends. I suspect that the owner may have believed that the clear liquid in the water bottle may not have been pure h2o, but I don't really know the truth of that. In any case the goose that laid the golden eggs became the meal. Sandy |
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19 Mar 09 - 01:42 PM (#2592728) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Phil Edwards If this debate should become even a tiny part of making folk musicians look in the mirror and start thinking outside the (little) box *snort* Have you stopped beating your wife, Raffles? |
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19 Mar 09 - 05:09 PM (#2592875) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: BB "to slam the people that gave you the start seems very wrong." Jen, I regret to say that, for a long time, people have been doing that to folk clubs, i.e. the clubs have given them the start, but they then become 'too big' to do the clubs - only concert stages will do. Having said which, some might still be prepared to do the clubs, but they price themselves out of that particular market. Thank God for the likes of John K. and a few others that are still happy to do both. Sad, isn't it? Barbara |
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19 Mar 09 - 05:47 PM (#2592901) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Willie-O Jen, thanks for keeping it going! Know that musicians everywhere appreciate the publicans (here in Canada we don't have that term, perhaps because the combined owner/manager is such a rarity) like yourself. Slainte mha! Bill p.s. Rafflesbear, i wish you were MY agent! |
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21 Mar 09 - 06:15 PM (#2594207) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Girl Friday At the risk of continuing to make this a "Norcsalordie" thread... these are two young men, who work bloody hard at bringing folk music back to the people. They work a punishing schedule that many of us oldies just couldn't cope with. Until recently they did pub gigs just because the clubs were either unaware, or wary of them. I understand the concept of sounding like an English version of the Dubliners, because of the driving rhythms, but never think that they sing Irish songs, perhaps a couple have found their way in, but they sit well with the English traditional stuff that they do so well. "Love 'em or hate 'em?" You cannot form an oppinion without going to see them. |
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22 Mar 09 - 07:09 AM (#2594434) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Phil Edwards Can we just have a Norcsalordie Appreciation Society permathread? |
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22 Mar 09 - 08:06 AM (#2594453) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Les in Chorlton Isn't 'Norcs' an Australianism for breasts? L in C |
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22 Mar 09 - 01:11 PM (#2594599) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Mr Happy Ireland, Coors? |
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22 Mar 09 - 04:21 PM (#2594722) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: Jack Taylor Reading these missives brought to mind a visit to the USA many moons ago. I was searching for a none-touristy folk club/bar/event in Orlando when I came across a small classified ad promoting a folk session at a suburban supermarket. I drove to the venue and found it was located in the car park of a Piggly Wiggly supermarket. There were about a dozen players/singers there pumping out traditional ballads, cowboy songs, blues and instrumentals. They had started about 6:30pm and they finished about 10:00pm. There was an MC introducing the performers. No electric - everything was accoustic. A small bin was placed nearby for donations and there was a very large 'moving' audience. (Similar to busking I suppose.) I managed to get the locations of several other car park sessions which were on that week in Orlando. It was quite common apparently. I know our climate isn't as conducive as Florida's to outside sessions, but use could be made of gas patio heaters and trolley shelters. The supermarket manager's permission would need to be obtained of course, but once secured; what a session could be had. A no cost venue with a plentiful supply of cheap drinks from off the supermarket shelves! Who's going to be the first to do it in UK? Or is it done here already? |
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22 Mar 09 - 07:20 PM (#2594895) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: synbyn House parties do happen, but I guess a carpark party would need a Licence from the Local Authority now in the UK-- or at least that's what some jobsworth would claim... following this with interest, because imho the traditional venue for our kind of music is being snuffed out by legislation and, dare I say it, sometimes our lack of appreciation of the costs of running a pub. Personally, as I can't drink much beer, I think it reasonable to pay £1 for a glass of coke if I'm getting a heated room, an environment in which to play and a friendly atmosphere. It's the price of admission. Again imho sessions are where the hearty music lives- the friendship & unity- and folk/acoustic clubs have really to take place in separate rooms, purely because of the need for quiet among the audience if attenders are paying to get in. And yes, both are dying because of the killing of the pub trade. Enjoy while they last. |
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23 Mar 09 - 05:47 AM (#2595136) Subject: RE: Musicians Quiting and Venues Dying From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC I too would think it very reasonable to pay £1 for a glass of coke. Unfortunately it is usually around £2.75 & is not always 'the real thing.' Drink a couple of them & a cover charge would be cheaper & more acceptable. |