BS: Social order breaking down.

10 Apr 09 - 12:12 AM (#2608470)
Subject: BS: Social order breaking down.
From: Peace

The link below is a Youtube presentation (fro those with slow connections. It is disturbing. Title is

"St. Petersburg Police cutting up homeless tents"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrPdZmPB36U&feature=related

I have to wonder how proud they are of themselves.

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10 Apr 09 - 02:56 AM (#2608512)
Subject: RE: BS: Social order breaking down.
From: Peace

Tent cities have been accepted in many areas of the country--both in the US and Canada. Not all the folks living in them are drug addicts or mentally ill people. There are families there, too.

Government can afford billions in aid to companies.

People are living in tents because they have nowhere else to turn.

Huh.

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10 Apr 09 - 02:58 AM (#2608513)
Subject: RE: BS: Social order breaking down.
From: Neil D

Over 110000 people watched this video and based on the first several pages of comments, less than 1 in 20 was anything other than outraged at this police action. Maybe the authorities should rethink their positions regarding homelessness when faced with the opinions of those they "protect and serve".

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10 Apr 09 - 05:18 AM (#2608542)
Subject: RE: BS: Social order breaking down.
From: gnu

I did not watch the vid. Not the way I wanna start my day... in tears and even more angry about the travesties going on everywhere one turns.

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10 Apr 09 - 05:48 AM (#2608555)
Subject: RE: BS: Social order breaking down.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Watch it, gnu....anger is what is going to change this world around.

How those bastards can sleep nights, I've no idea.

"There but for the Grace of God...."

One day soon, those words, and what they have done, may come back to haunt them....

If it does, then may it make their Spirits grow.

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10 Apr 09 - 05:51 AM (#2608556)
Subject: RE: BS: Social order breaking down.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

I mean....what the f*ck has happened to us, as a Species, that we DO that to each other????????


Geez! The Property B*stard who bought up the house next door to me, sold it off as flats, then sat back and counted his profit...along with the profit from dozens of other houses he owns in this country and abroad...has now got aroun 60 canal boats because he's already worked out that soon, there won't be houses that people can afford, so they're going to be moving into caravans and barges...and from there, to tents I guess...

Spit! Spit! Spit!

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10 Apr 09 - 06:13 AM (#2608564)
Subject: RE: BS: Social order breaking down.
From: akenaton

CAPITALISM.....in its element....lizzie's right, watch the police batter protest into the ground.
Ever been "kettled" anyone?
Wait till unemployment really kicks in, its goin' to take more than liberal socialism to stop them.

If we can't see the gaping flaws in this system by now, we deserve all that's coming to us. A black Presidential charm offensive, or even the election of a left of centre government to hold the Capitalist line, will only postpone the inevitable.

We must all take responsibility for the type of society which evolves and for what humanity has become.

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10 Apr 09 - 07:15 AM (#2608582)
Subject: RE: BS: Social order breaking down.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

I'll put this video here too, as this is the right place for it...

"America is dying from within, because they forgot the instructions of how to live on earth. Everything is coming to a time where prophecy and man's inability to live on Earth in a Spiritual Way will come to a crossroad of great problems...."

Part 1
The Hopi Way

I'd say the we're all dying from within...because we've turned away.

It is only 'us' who will win this battle, not our leaders, not money...but every single one of us.

The Native American people are so wise. They know so much and they have been treated so badly, are still being treated so badly, but they hold the knowledge that can save this world.

Stop teaching our children scientific maths...teach them the ways of people who understand! Teach them compassion and love..and then you'll never get the kind of scenes in the video Bruce posted.

Bruce, you should think about re-recording this song, it's been important to many people for a long time, and there's a whole new generation out there who should get to hear it.

Maybe if those policemen got to hear you sing it, a few of them might start to think differently.

Rompin' Rovin' Days by Bruce Murdoch (from 'The Singer Songwriter Project' CD)


"Hey, I've been a rambler all my rompin' rovin' days
A railway boy with nothin' for to do
My people waved farewell somewheres down the road
For hobos, friend, are only passin' through.

Now I've seen every city from San Marcos in the south
To the concrete fenced-in walls of New York town
And everywhere I go my name nobody wants to know
And the talkin' seems to stop when I'm around.

Now all in my life I've been quickly cast aside
Though my handshake never meant less than your own
If there's any which way for to fully understand
Then tell me 'cause I'd surely like to know.

For every mile I rode a freight train, I walked a city block
Gazin' through the windows at the goods I couldn't buy
But the thing that hurts me most is when I'm wanderin' alone
And no one cares enough to ask me why.

Hey, I've been a rambler all my rompin' rovin' days
A railway boy with nothin' for to do
My people waved farewell somewheres down the road
For hobos, friend, are only passin' through."

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10 Apr 09 - 08:41 AM (#2608614)
Subject: RE: BS: Social order breaking down.
From: Rapparee

Commanded by then-Col. Douglas MacArthur....

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10 Apr 09 - 10:49 AM (#2608667)
Subject: RE: BS: Social order breaking down.
From: Ebbie

In the video that Peace linked, just about all of the tents are of the same type. They are not individual, scrabbled together shelters. That implies, surely, that someone, some agency, issued them? Where is this agency? How can this happen?

I should add that the police in that video felt that they were just following their orders; They were taking no joy in it. I'll bet that they don't sleep well these nights.

Something MUST be done; these kinds of shelters - and worse - are being set up across the country and if we don't have plans in place to deal wlith the phenomenon of forced homelessness this kind of thing will happen all across the country. It is not a world I want to live in.

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10 Apr 09 - 11:24 AM (#2608686)
Subject: RE: BS: Social order breaking down.
From: Rapparee

Sounds to me like illegal destruction of private property.

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10 Apr 09 - 11:57 AM (#2608706)
Subject: RE: BS: Social order breaking down.
From: Amos

Somewhere--I forget where--we were supposed to have learned the lesson that committing crimes while in uniform because one is ordered to do so is not a moral OR a legal defense.

"The Nuremberg Defense is a legal defense that essentially states that the defendant was "only following orders" ("Befehl ist Befehl", literally "order is order") and is therefore not responsible for his crimes. The defense was most famously employed during the Nuremberg Trials, after which it is named.

Before the end of World War II, the Allies suspected such a defense might be employed, and issued the London Charter of the International Military Tribunal (IMT), which specifically stated that this was not a valid defense against charges of war crimes.

Thus, under Nuremberg Principle IV, "defense of superior orders" is not a defense for war crimes, although it might influence a sentencing authority to lessen the penalty. Nuremberg Principle IV states:

    "The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him."
"

WIkipedia on the Nuremberg Defense.

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10 Apr 09 - 12:02 PM (#2608710)
Subject: RE: BS: Social order breaking down.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

I know its 'chic' to bash Christians...instead of the 'church' hierarchies, that have watered down, the true meaning of..'Do unto others, as you'd have them do unto you', for their own corrupted power grab...which is supposed to be one of the two chief tenants. 'Religion' has co-opted true spirituality, which the thought of it, causes the political left, to seethe and the politically right, to exploit, for their causes. But, the truth is, if Love, was, or is, the true mentality of either, then many of us, or the churches, wouldn't be seeing what we are seeing...and I'm sure we'll be seeing more! Perhaps, it's time for us all, to re-think, our biases, bitternesses, resentments and excuses, that we have accumulated, along the way, for whatever reason, and realize, that Love, IS the currency of heaven, from which there is an unlimited supply, won't be foreclosed on, won't ruin your 'credit', and returns to those exchanging it. By the way, Earth is located in heaven!! The rest is just plain stupid!....in other words, Snap now, and avoid the rush!!!!

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10 Apr 09 - 12:47 PM (#2608737)
Subject: RE: BS: Social order breaking down.
From: Ebbie

The video shows that people were allowed to gather up their belongings from inside before the tents were knifed unusable (What happened to the idea that one should 'move on'? Without a tent there would be no sanctuary elsewhere.) For the sake of argument, let's say that the tents were lent to them so in that sense the tents were not their own property. Does that change the legality of it?

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10 Apr 09 - 01:33 PM (#2608764)
Subject: RE: BS: Social order breaking down.
From: KB in Iowa

I used to live in St. Pete and still read the St Pete Times on-line regularly.

This actually happened some time back, not sure how long, months anyway (time runs together more all the time). The controversy about where the homeless of the city should sleep had been going on for a long time. There aren't enough shelters (and some don't like to sleep there anyway) and the police ran them out of anyplace else they tried to sleep. A number of folks had gathered in this spot and then some (church sponsered I think) organization donated those tents. The city had been trying to move them out of that spot for a while and then finally sent in the police to destroy the tents.

It caused quite a stir in St Pete. Lots of folks were appalled but lots of others saw no problem with it (according to the on-line comments). I don't remember any more large scale homelessness issues being reported in the paper since then but I don't read it everday.

Never saw anything re: the issue of cutting up someone else's property. My guess is that since they were on city property and the owners had been told to leave that anything they didn't take was forfeit, but that is just a guess.

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10 Apr 09 - 01:47 PM (#2608773)
Subject: RE: BS: Social order breaking down.
From: McGrath of Harlow

I see it's the American St Petersburg. Could just as easily have been the one in Russia, I imagine.

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10 Apr 09 - 03:13 PM (#2608819)
Subject: RE: BS: Social order breaking down.
From: Rapparee

Can't do it, Ebbie, without permission of or just compensation to the owner. The compensation thing is when you take property for some civic good, like a house for a new road, and it's FULL of legalities you'd better follow!

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10 Apr 09 - 04:41 PM (#2608866)
Subject: RE: BS: Social order breaking down.
From: akenaton

Still practicing irony I see Mr McGrath!

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10 Apr 09 - 05:40 PM (#2608897)
Subject: RE: BS: Social order breaking down.
From: Donuel

Corporations have all the rights plus some people do not have.
Corporations eat drink and poop with impunity.

If people in a tent city should poop, the city IMMEDIATELY declares a health hazard and cholera concerns and give them 3 days notice prior to their destruction.

Corporations of course practice access capitalism and have the finest lawers to either win or drag out any order by a municipality for decades.

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10 Apr 09 - 06:44 PM (#2608935)
Subject: RE: BS: Social order breaking down.
From: meself

The video clip was posted two years ago, it seems.

It is, of course, appalling.

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10 Apr 09 - 07:17 PM (#2608946)
Subject: RE: BS: Social order breaking down.
From: bobad

Florida is, in general, fairly inhospitable to people who aren't contributing monetarily to it's coffers. I have had experiences there from which I base this opinion.

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10 Apr 09 - 07:59 PM (#2608956)
Subject: RE: BS: Social order breaking down.
From: pdq

Police slash open tents to roust the homeless

By ABHI RAGHUNATHAN and ALISA ULFERTS
Published January 20, 2007

ST. PETERSBURG - City officials raided two homeless camps Friday afternoon, seizing more than 20 tents and further rattling a community still shaken from the slayings of two of its own.

Those who refused to get out of their tents or remove their belongings watched as two dozen police and fire officials sliced the tops of the tents away from their bases, tossed them into a truck and drove off. Some said they didn't have enough time to get out before the officials began to cut with scissors, box cutters and other blades.

"I was in the tent when they started cutting," said Ken Argo, 54, who said he was asleep when police arrived. "It was very reckless of them."

The whole operation took less than 10 minutes.

The raid was the city's latest attempt to deal with the highly visible tent camps that have sprung up in recent weeks and a homeless population that is becoming increasingly organized and close-knit. Last week the city shut down a tent city on Fourth Avenue N after it said it helped about 100 of its residents get social services, including rent vouchers and bus tickets to cities where relatives or friends could help.

Those who didn't get or refused services soon set up their tents at one of two locations, Fifth Avenue N at 15th Street or Fifth Avenue N at Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Street.

But fire officials soon observed a host of fire code violations at the two satellite tent cities, said Lt. Rick Feinberg, a spokesman for the Fire and Rescue Department. People were smoking and cooking in their tents, he said. The tents were too close together, too close to public thoroughfares, and they didn't have fire extinguishers, he said.

Feinberg said the homeless also failed to get the required permits for their tents, which were set up on the public right of way.

"They were all in violation of codes," Feinberg said. "No one submitted plans for preparations for these two tent cities."

It's not clear if all the fire codes the city cited indeed apply. The code requiring a permit specifies tents greater than 120 square feet, which is larger than the tents used by most of the homeless. And a state fire statute initially cited by the city doesn't deal with tents, said a spokeswoman for the state fire marshal.

Still, city officials said their job is to protect and that there were significant safety concerns at the two locations, including danger from heavy traffic. City officials also said the homeless were given the chance to remove their belongings from the tents and were offered mats at a nearby shelter.

Rather than arrest or get in physical altercations with those who refused, the officers cut the tents, said Deputy Mayor Dave Metz.

"The tents were retained for evidence," Metz said.

The city's action outraged the homeless community, which said that instead of taking away tents, the police officers should have been searching for the people who killed two homeless men early Wednesday.

"And now they're putting all these people in jeopardy again," said Rev. Bruce Wright of Refuge Ministries. The reason the homeless cluster in tents is for safety, Wright said.

Metz acknowledged the criticism but said the city did what it had to do. "I think you always have those implications, but our primary concern was safety."

Wright said that advocates for the homeless, who met Friday with the city to discuss things like getting fire extinguishers, plan to sue the city over the destruction of the tents and will seek an injunction to prevent another raid.

"We're getting more tents," Wright said.

"We're bringing down the big guns now. We're gonna sue 'em."

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11 Apr 09 - 10:55 AM (#2609195)
Subject: RE: BS: Social order breaking down.
From: Rog Peek

The USA, the richest country in the world. The country whose leaders hold it up as an example to the world. Homeless people? Surely not.
Next they'll be saying you can't get decent health care unless you can afford it.

Rog

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12 Apr 09 - 09:53 AM (#2609643)
Subject: RE: BS: Social order breaking down.
From: Greg F.

Shades of Ludlow. Or the Bonus Army. Or the "Hoovervilles" of the Hoover administration. Long tradition of this type of thing.

also:

Florida is, in general, fairly inhospitable Period. No qualifiers needed.

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12 Apr 09 - 10:16 AM (#2609648)
Subject: RE: BS: Social order breaking down.
From: Bobert

What needs to occur is for law makers having to spend a week a year in a tent city... Then they will get it...

This is a sad commentary on the state of our country...

Bobert

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