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13 Apr 09 - 12:27 PM (#2610227) Subject: Origins: God rest ye Merry Gentlemen From: Amy_Florence_Nthants Ok, slightly out of season here, but just wondering if anyone knew anything about the origins of 'God rest Ye Merry Gentlemen' which hasn't been posted on wiki, such as any earlier collections or referances to the song. Here is the wiki entry: "Like so many early Christmas songs, this carol was written as a direct reaction to the music of the fifteenth century church," writes Ace Collins, in Stories Behind the Best-Loved Songs of Christmas. It was the most popular of the early carols, sung for centuries before being published in Britain in 1833, when it appeared in Christmas Carols Ancient and Modern, a collection of seasonal carols gathered by William B. Sandys, though its incipit was in William Hone's "List of Christmas carols now annually printed" in Ancient Mysteries Described, 1823. The author is unknown" If there is already an origins page that i have somehow missed then would it be possible for someone to send me the link? Thank You |
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13 Apr 09 - 01:33 PM (#2610279) Subject: RE: Origins: God rest ye Merry Gentlemen From: RTim I don't know when the carol was written But I do know that the collector Dr. George Gardiner did collect two versions of the tune from one man - Henry Blake of Bartley, Hampshire in 1909 - see Gardiner Collection H1198 and H1199 (I think) Tim Radford |
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13 Apr 09 - 02:58 PM (#2610321) Subject: RE: Origins: God rest ye Merry Gentlemen From: Q (Frank Staplin) Like many Wikipedia articles, these are errors and omissions and documentation of remarks is mostly absent. This post also will have omissions; I am not a student of English carols. Most of the following is quoted from James J. Fuld, "The Book of World-Famous Music": The carol was first printed in the Roxburghe Collection, c. 1770. It has not been found with an earlier date. More than one melody has been used, "the present melody is said to have been in a broadside printed by J & C. Evans, London, about 1796, but no copy of this broadside has been found." "The earliest known printing of the present melody, and words, is in a satirical pamphlet, The Man in the Moon, by William Hone (London, 1820). "The title has two separate meanings, depending on where there is a pause or comma. The word "rest" means "keep." One thought is, "God rest you, merry gentlemen"; the other, perhaps a solecism, is, "God rest you merry, gentlemen."" The following from William Chappell, 1859, "Popular Music of the Olden Time, p. 752, vol. I (Dover reprint). The first words in Hone: God rest you, merry gentlemen, Let nothing you dismay; Remember we were left alive Upon last Christmas Day, With both our lips at liberty, To praise Lord C[astlereag]h For his 'practical' comfort and joy, etc. Chappell also printed words and the current popular tune, "noted down by Dr. Rimbault." First verse: God rest you merry gentlemen, Let nothing you dismay; For Jesus Christ, our Saviour, Was born on Christmas-day, To save us all from Satan's pow'r, When we were gone astray: O tidings of comfort and of joy, comfort and joy, O tidings of comfort and of joy. 2 In Bethlehem, in Jewry, this blessed babe was born, And laid within a manger, upon this blessed morn; etc. This version is similar to the one in Sandys, 1833, which is printed in its entirety with music which now is seldom heard, in "The Oxford Book of Carols," 1928 and later printings, with the chorus: O tidings of comfort and joy, For Jesus Christ our Saviour Was born on Christmas Day.. Chappell also prints the one from Sandys' Collection. God bless you, merry gentlemen etc. "The Oxford Book of Carols" also prints Rimbault's version (No, 12) with the common tune, but the words differ somewhat from those printed in Chappell, ("Traditional, London," says the Oxford Book of Carols): 1 God rest you merry gentlemen, Let nothing you dismay, Remember Christ our Saviour Was born on Christmas Day, To save poor souls from Satan's power Which had long time gone astray, And it's tidings of comfort and joy 2 From God that is our Father, The blessed Angels came, Unto some certain shepherds With tidings of the same; That there was born in Bethlehem, The son of God by name. And it's tidings of comfort and joy. etc. The lyrics printed in Wikipedia are one of the several variations sung. |
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13 Apr 09 - 03:54 PM (#2610364) Subject: RE: Origins: God rest ye Merry Gentlemen From: Q (Frank Staplin) An accessible source for several sets of sheet music, lyrics and comment is "Hymns and Carols of Christmas." Hymns and Carols |
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13 Apr 09 - 03:55 PM (#2610367) Subject: RE: Origins: God rest ye Merry Gentlemen From: Newport Boy It's included in Ancient English Christmas Carols (1400-1700) by Edith Rickert, London 1910. Edith Rickert was Prof of English at University of Chicago. The entry gives no date for the carol, marking it 'Traditional', so the pre-1700 date must be in doubt. I couldn't see any other note re its origins. Phil |
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13 Apr 09 - 04:06 PM (#2610377) Subject: RE: Origins: God rest ye Merry Gentlemen From: Q (Frank Staplin) I left a character out of the link. If at first you don't .... God rest you merry Or go to the home page Hymns and Carols to get the various sections of this web site. |
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13 Apr 09 - 04:10 PM (#2610383) Subject: RE: Origins: God rest ye Merry Gentlemen From: Q (Frank Staplin) Well, the last one worked. Click on Table of Contents. Newport Boy, nothing has been found before the c. 1770 date of Roxburghe Coll. |
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13 Apr 09 - 04:17 PM (#2610394) Subject: RE: Origins: God rest ye Merry Gentlemen From: JohnInKansas A clue might come from when the blessing "God Rest Ye Merry" was current? (And where and for how long?) Perhaps it still is used, but it's "unrecognized" in my parts. I'm told that, spelled "correctly," the title is "God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen" and NOT "God Rest Ye, Merry Gentlemen" (as most commonly sung in the US at least.) John |
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13 Apr 09 - 05:58 PM (#2610472) Subject: RE: Origins: God rest ye Merry Gentlemen From: Q (Frank Staplin) Both punctuations and a third are found in print and sheet music; 19th c or earlier origins. Two versions in "The Oxford Book of Carols;" version 11 "God rest you merry, Gentlemen," version 12, "God rest you merry gentlemen" with no punctuation; and "God rest you, merry gentlemen" in the earliest, Roxburghe Coll. and reprinted in Chappell, 1859, "Popular Music of the Olden Time." God rest you, comma, has age on its side. That "ye" business is modern choral practice but none of the old versions used it. |
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14 Apr 09 - 10:14 AM (#2610947) Subject: RE: Origins: God rest ye Merry Gentlemen From: Genie Still, if one understands the meaning of the greeting "rest you merry," then to me it makes more sense for the song title to be "God Rest You [Ye] Merry, Gentlemen" than "God Rest You [Ye], Merry Gentlemen" ("Let nothing you dismay ..."). The latter punctuation makes it sound like the only people we are wishing God to "rest" (or save) are the merry ones. If "God rest you merry" basically meant "May God grant you good cheer," that sentiment seems to fit with the rest of the carol. |
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14 Apr 09 - 03:49 PM (#2611170) Subject: RE: Origins: God rest ye Merry Gentlemen From: Steve Gardham Bruce Olson quotes a Bodleian ms c1650. Somebody please do a blue clicky to it for me. I'm surprised it hasn't cropped up here before. There are 8 stanzas in the Bodl version and it's on p318 of the website, first line 'Sit yow merry gentlemen, let nothing you dismay.' |
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14 Apr 09 - 03:50 PM (#2611171) Subject: RE: Origins: God rest ye Merry Gentlemen From: Q (Frank Staplin) The Oxford Book of Carols points out that "'God rest you merry' means 'God keep you merry', but the comma after 'merry' is generally misplaced." The earliest- God rest you, comma,- is a parody, so really doesn't count. |
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14 Apr 09 - 03:59 PM (#2611182) Subject: RE: Origins: God rest ye Merry Gentlemen From: Q (Frank Staplin) Steve, I'll look for that one and post it. That puts it on the upper side of that Hone parody. |
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14 Apr 09 - 04:36 PM (#2611202) Subject: RE: Origins: God rest ye Merry Gentlemen From: Q (Frank Staplin) Steve, thought I could find it, but I looked through sections of Olson's old web site, and couldn't find it. No page numbers, everything I found 19th c. |
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14 Apr 09 - 05:19 PM (#2611238) Subject: RE: Origins: God rest ye Merry Gentlemen From: Steve Gardham Okay I'll have a go. |
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14 Apr 09 - 05:54 PM (#2611273) Subject: RE: Origins: God rest ye Merry Gentlemen From: Steve Gardham Okay, it's a long url but here goes... http://web.archive.org/web/20031229112047/users.erols.com/olson/SONGTXT1.HTM#DGBYFWL and then scroll down a couple of songs. |
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14 Apr 09 - 06:03 PM (#2611281) Subject: RE: Origins: God rest ye Merry Gentlemen From: Steve Gardham Okay let's try again.... Click here then scroll down two songs. Alternatively.....go to the site, scroll down the contents list. Click on SCARCE SONG 1...Scroll down index and click on Digby's Farewell. This should take you about three quarters of the way down the page and scroll 2 songs further and you have it. --------------------link fixed. Mudelf--------------------- |
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14 Apr 09 - 07:00 PM (#2611307) Subject: RE: Origins: God rest ye Merry Gentlemen From: Bill D try this one (In the Mudcat archive) |
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14 Apr 09 - 08:41 PM (#2611356) Subject: RE: Origins: God rest ye Merry Gentlemen From: Q (Frank Staplin) Thanks Steve and Bill D. I hadn't looked in that particular file before. Some interesting songs! (SONGTEXT.HTM) |
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14 Apr 09 - 10:02 PM (#2611390) Subject: RE: Origins: God rest ye Merry Gentlemen From: Bonecruncher God rest you merry, Gentlemen Sleep easy in your beds. The British independent bomb is flying overhead To save us all from Russia when the rest of us are dead. Oh tidings of comfort and joy! Version from the early 1960's Colyn. |
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14 Apr 09 - 11:44 PM (#2611429) Subject: RE: Origins: God rest ye Merry Gentlemen From: Q (Frank Staplin) Since a copy of Olson is archived at Mudcat, the early version of the song is available for them as wants it. Here is the 1st verse, so that we can list another 'title'. Sit yo w merry Gentlemen Let nothing you dismay For Jesus Christ is borne to save o r soules from Satan When as we runne away O tidings of comfort & joy. Superscript letters in the Olson text are represented by separation in the two instances in that verse. In Olson, Within SONGTEXT.HTM Oxford Bodleian library MS Eng. poet. b.5; the manuscript c. 1650. |
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15 Apr 09 - 01:38 PM (#2611809) Subject: RE: Origins: God rest ye Merry Gentlemen From: Newport Boy So, Edith Rickert was correct in including it in her 1400 - 1700 book? Phil |
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15 Apr 09 - 02:43 PM (#2611861) Subject: RE: Origins: God rest ye Merry Gentlemen From: Q (Frank Staplin) Rickert gave no evidence or citation. Was she depending on hearsay? Had she a reference to the 1650 MS at the Bodleian but didn't cite it? Or was she including the 1700s and referring to the version in the Roxburghe Coll., c. 1770? This out-of-print book is again available on a 'print-to-order' basis. |
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15 Apr 09 - 02:57 PM (#2611873) Subject: RE: Origins: God rest ye Merry Gentlemen From: mrmoe I think it's a parody of an Alan Sherman song about Harry Mendlebaum...... |
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15 Apr 09 - 04:52 PM (#2611933) Subject: RE: Origins: God rest ye Merry Gentlemen From: Genie Yeah, I think it's something like "God Bless You [or was it Goddamn You?], Harry Mandlebaum ...? Q, when you said that the Oxford Book of Carols notes that "'God rest you merry' means 'God keep you merry', but the comma after 'merry' is generally misplaced," I'd add "... or omitted." As for the "ye" being substituted later for "you," it does seem fairly common for "ye" to be used in older (or 'traditional') Christmas carols, e.g., "O Come, All Ye Faithful" and It Came Upon A Midnight Clear." I mean, the King James version of the Bible is all full of "ye's," and many Christian hymns from the 17th, 18th and 19th C were written in that sort of language. If GRYMG does date back to the 17th C, would it have been unusual for "Ye" to have been used? |
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15 Apr 09 - 05:01 PM (#2611942) Subject: RE: Origins: God rest ye Merry Gentlemen From: Steve Gardham Q, From whence cometh your c1770? My copy of Rox Vol 7 p775 has the 4 Choice Carols of which GBYMG is the first. It is reprinted from the Rox Coll itself at III, 452 with a duplicate at BL 11621, 1. 2, fol. 13., neither with colophon so difficult to date precisely. The description on p777 at the foot of the reprinted broadside runs thus.. 'No Colophon. Three woodcuts: etc...., Roxb. has no colophon, but the second and third of these ditties were printed by J Millet in a volume of New Carols (Wood's No 40), in Black-letter, c1674, or earlier, and this is the probable date of the originals. Ours is a modern reprint in White-letter. It is a fairly trustworthy version.' This seems to me to be implying that though their copy is a modern reprint, it is a reprint of a broadside of the late 17thc, or not! |
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15 Apr 09 - 07:36 PM (#2612032) Subject: RE: Origins: God rest ye Merry Gentlemen From: Q (Frank Staplin) A Black-letter of c. 1674 is cited, but apparently has not been found. The c. 1770 date is approx. for the Roxburghe vol. 3. If Rickert was basing her 17th c. date on the desc. at the base of the broadside, it should be followed by a question mark. In view of the c. 1650 MS text at the Bodleian and quoted in Olson, it is likely such a broadside could have existed, but it remains with a query since it has not been found. Quibling? Perhaps. |
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12 May 09 - 08:45 AM (#2629787) Subject: Lyr Add: GOD REST YOU MERRY, GENTLEMEN (1833) From: Jim Dixon Here's how it appears in Christmas Carols, Ancient and Modern by William Sandys (London: Richard Beckley, 1833), page 102. Note there are several differences from how we sing it today. In particular, notice the second line of the refrain. It would be very awkward to fit that to the tune I know. Unfortunately, the book doesn't give a tune. I have boldfaced the differences. For the verses that haven't been posted at Mudcat before, I use the version in the NetHymnal (formerly known as CyberHymnal) for comparison. GOD REST YOU MERRY, GENTLEMEN. 1. God rest you merry, gentlemen, let nothing you dismay, For Jesus Christ our Saviour was born upon this day, To save us all from Satan's power when we were gone astray. O tidings of comfort and joy, For Jesus Christ our Saviour was born on Christmas day. 2. In Bethlehem in Jury [=Jewry] this blessed babe was born, And laid within a manger upon this blessed morn; The which his mother Mary nothing did take in scorn. O tidings, &c. 3. From God our Heavenly Father a blessed Angel came, And unto certain Shepherds brought tidings of the same, How that in Bethlehem was born The Son of God by name. O tidings, &c. 4. Fear not, then said the Angel, Let nothing you affright, This day is born a Saviour of virtue, power, and might; So frequently to vanquish all the friends of Satan quite. O tidings, &c. 5. The Shepherds at those tidings rejoiced much in mind, And left their flocks a feeding in tempest, storm, and wind, And went to Bethlehem straightway, this blessed babe to find. O tidings, &c. 6. But when to Bethlehem they came, whereas this infant lay, They found him in a manger where oxen feed on hay, His mother Mary kneeling unto the Lord did pray. O tidings, &c. 7. Now to the Lord sing praises, all you within this place, And with true love and brotherhood each other now embrace; This holy tide of Christmas all others doth deface. O tidings, &c. |
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12 May 09 - 05:49 PM (#2630290) Subject: RE: Origins: God rest ye Merry Gentlemen From: Joe_F In early modern English (e.g., in the King James Bible), "ye" is nominative & "you" objective. Thus, it's "God rest you" but "O come, all ye faithful". So recently as the 19th century, Julia Ward Howe got that right: "As ye deal with My contemners, so with you My grace shall deal" (she was archaizing, of course). |
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12 May 09 - 08:13 PM (#2630399) Subject: RE: Origins: God rest ye Merry Gentlemen From: GUEST,Gerry The Allan Sherman version goes, God bless you, Jerry Mendelbaum Let nothing you dismay This May you had a rotten month So what is there to say Let's hope next May is better And good things will come your way And you won't have a feeling of dismay Next May It should be noted that the word "This" beginning line 3 is pronoounced "Dis." |
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29 Jul 11 - 07:58 PM (#3198228) Subject: RE: Origins: God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen From: Genie Well, it's in the DT as "God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen." (Shameless plug alert!) It will be on the new Mudcat "This Is Us" CD: "Until The Dark Season Ends," played and sung by our own Lonesome EJ. |
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29 Jul 11 - 08:34 PM (#3198237) Subject: RE: Origins: God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen From: michaelr Gee, I always thought it was "Get Dressed, Ye Merry Gentlemen!" |
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22 Nov 20 - 05:23 AM (#4080562) Subject: RE: Origins: God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen From: False Lankum Is anyone aware of other traditional songs that use the same or a similar air to this? To me Frank Harte's Maid of Cabra West has similarities and I'd be interested to hear if there are others out there. Thanks, Ian Maid of Cabra West |
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22 Nov 20 - 05:54 AM (#4080565) Subject: RE: Origins: God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler Well, the tune acts as a harmony to the souling song used at Halloween which is why we (Caffey/McGurk/Madge) blend into one verse of it at the end of of "a-souling". Robin |
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22 Nov 20 - 06:16 AM (#4080566) Subject: RE: Origins: God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen From: GUEST,Derrick False Lankum The Maid of Cabra West is a parody of She Loved a Portuguese. The original song was written according to Derek brimstone by a student called Pat Cogshill. There were several threads about its origin on this forum |
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22 Nov 20 - 09:01 AM (#4080577) Subject: RE: Origins: God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen From: GUEST By the end of the sixteenth century 'ye' as a form of 'you' was limited to religious, literary and archaic contexts. The distinction between subject and object forms went earlier, it says here: https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/143352/what-happened-first-ye-you-merging-to-you-or-thou-thee-falling-out-o However, it seems that in some dialects ye (meaning you) is still used. |
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22 Nov 20 - 11:47 AM (#4080597) Subject: RE: Origins: God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen From: Lighter I suspect that the familiar "ya" (pronounced "yuh") is a survival of "ye" rather than an alteration of "you." It would certainly take less doing. It is, of course, both nominative and objective. |
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22 Nov 20 - 01:27 PM (#4080609) Subject: RE: Origins: God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen From: False Lankum Thanks for that Derrick. I would have said that it is more of a localised variant rather than a parody though! Also, the air to She Loved a Portuguese is different, showing none of the similarities that I was looking for. All the best, Ian |
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23 Nov 20 - 07:36 AM (#4080645) Subject: RE: Origins: God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen From: GUEST,Peter Cripps Nobody has yet mentioned 'Arrest Those Merry Gentlemen!' (Kipper Family!) |
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23 Nov 20 - 08:35 AM (#4080651) Subject: RE: Origins: God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen From: Reinhard See the 2004 discussion Lyr Req: Constable Joy (Arrest These Merry Gentlemen). |
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23 Nov 20 - 09:32 AM (#4080657) Subject: RE: Origins: God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen From: GUEST,Peter Cripps Thanks Reinhard! |
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23 Nov 20 - 02:25 PM (#4080693) Subject: RE: Origins: God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen From: mayomick Whatever about English religious context, “ye” is often still used in Ireland with “yeez” and “youse” as plurals –often followed by an expletive. |
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23 Nov 20 - 11:01 PM (#4080750) Subject: RE: Origins: God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen From: GUEST The last verse of Bonecruncher's song above, learnt on the Aldermaston March, 1963: Now Khruschev's drinking vodka And Mac is toping beer And Jackie makes the White House ring With bourbon and good cheer - I'll drink a toast to all of them If Christmas comes next year And it's tidings... etc Jon Bartlett |
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09 Dec 21 - 09:00 AM (#4128468) Subject: RE: Origins: God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen From: Lighter The Oxford English Dictionary has the phrase "God rest you merry" from as early as 1534, centuries before the appearance of the carol. Shakespeare also used it in "As You Like It." It meant "God grant you peace and happiness!" So case closed, comma-wise. (Unless people want to sing about "merry gentlemen," which is their business.) The authoritative OED also dates the carol to a "single sheet" of 1700-1701. The phrase seems to have gone out of ordinary use during the 18th century. |
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21 Apr 22 - 10:27 AM (#4139749) Subject: RE: Origins: God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen From: Lighter Of the earliest appearance of the carol, Bruce Olson uncovered a manuscript version from ca1650, beating Oxford by 50 years: https://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/Olson/SONGTXT1.HTM#FRDNKMD The manuscript text, btw, is unpunctuated throughout. |
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21 Apr 22 - 06:00 PM (#4139783) Subject: RE: Origins: God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen From: Joe_F "Ye" and "you" were not mere variants. In Bible English, "ye" was nominative, and "you" objective. In "God rest you merry, gentlemen", "you" is the object of the verb "rest", "merry" is a predicated adjective, and "gentlemen" is a vocative (noun in direct address). Spelled out, the meaning is "May God keep you merry, O gentlemen!". A good example of the contrast between "ye" and "you" is the line from the Battle Hymn of the Republic: "As ye deal with My contemners, so with you My grace shall deal". Howe knew her KJV. |
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01 May 22 - 10:30 AM (#4140823) Subject: RE: Origins: God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen From: Lighter Great point, Joe. |