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17 May 09 - 04:56 AM (#2633721) Subject: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Richard Bridge I think it was revised and republished in 2004. It used to be available throught the EFDSS. Does anyone know if it is still in print? I can't find it on the EFDSS site. Secondly, is the Mudcat MIDI library of the tunes for all the songs in it still here somewhere? Thirdly, is there any other good but not too exotic expensive and hard to find source book? I should explain, I am present-hunting... |
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17 May 09 - 06:24 AM (#2633752) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: The Borchester Echo Depends whether you mean The Classic Book Of English Folk Songs which was an update of the original RVW and AL Lloyd publication, which was edited and updated by Malcolm Douglas a few years ago, or the very recent one which Penguin suddenly decided to republish. There was a thread on both a few months ago but I can't find it. |
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17 May 09 - 07:02 AM (#2633770) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Matthew Edwards Derek Schofield did say on the thread Penguin (UK) reissue 'English Folk Songs that The Classic Book of English Folk Songs is due to be reprinted by the EFDSS. At the the time he still had a few copies available for sale. This is the edition worth getting, and worth waiting for as it contains some really valuable information about the songs and their singers researched by Malcolm Douglas. The new Penguin issue in their 'English Journeys' series is simply a reprint of the original 1959 edition - it is a nice copy to own but the print is very small (to my elderly eyes!) and while the songs in it are just as good as they were 50 years ago the notes are seriously out of date. If you are looking for other good song books the newly redesigned website at EDFSS has a wonderful choice on offer. 'Still Growing', 'Dear Companion', 'Traveller's Joy' (with CD), and 'Marrrow Bones' (revised by Malcolm Douglas and Steve Gardham) are all good buys. Matthew Edwards |
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17 May 09 - 04:07 PM (#2634101) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Richard Bridge It was teh Malcom Douglas updated one that I wanted. Although an updated Marrowbones would be nice too... |
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17 May 09 - 04:08 PM (#2634103) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Richard Bridge PS - and the MIDIs of the tunes. |
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18 May 09 - 05:41 AM (#2634534) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: johnadams I have a couple of copies available for sale. Anyone interested can PM me. |
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18 May 09 - 06:03 AM (#2634549) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Richard Bridge Cheque in post John. And now - the MIDIs? |
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18 May 09 - 06:10 AM (#2634553) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST All the MIDIS are linked from this thread |
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18 May 09 - 06:12 AM (#2634555) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Richard Bridge Thank you Guest - I hadn't found it. |
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18 May 09 - 06:49 AM (#2634582) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: matt milton worth mentioning though that the recent Penguin paperback reprint has the virtue of being only 4.99, probably even less on Amazon. |
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18 May 09 - 07:03 AM (#2634587) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: johnadams But sadly without the virtue of Malcolm Douglas's wonderful annotations. |
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18 May 09 - 08:15 AM (#2634637) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Folkiedave Whilst not particularly knocking Penguin and its reprint - it is unreliable as a source - although the authors said they had indicated what they had revised/altered/added to - they only did this in a few cases. What is really needed is the "Malcolm Douglas" version - "Classical English Folk Songs" which gives chapter and verse. Incidentally to produce a version which people can use for singing does require collation. |
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18 May 09 - 08:29 AM (#2634646) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Richard Bridge What would be REALLY nice (planning ahead) would be a version that didn't need dot reading - so one option would be for it to come with the MIDI's all on an included CD, and better still would be a version with a "preferred" vocal rendition of each song (or even two versions, one unaccompanied and one accompanied) on an included CD... |
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18 May 09 - 11:00 AM (#2634736) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Phil Edwards What would be REALLY nice (planning ahead) would be a version that didn't need dot reading ABC! |
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18 May 09 - 11:09 AM (#2634742) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: The Borchester Echo What's really nice about ABC is that you can feed it into a cyber machine and so generate proper notation. |
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18 May 09 - 11:13 AM (#2634748) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: The Borchester Echo Or, of course, generate a MIDI. What I don't understand is how some people claim that sightreading ABC is easier than sightreading real notation when the stave shows you how far to go up or down . . . |
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18 May 09 - 11:26 AM (#2634762) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Richard Bridge Er... Wot? |
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18 May 09 - 11:37 AM (#2634777) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Joe Offer By the way, it was Ed Pellow who transcribed all the Penguin tunes to MIDI, almost ten years ago now. Alan Foster of Australia posted the background information and the lyrics, when we didn't have them already. Malcolm Douglas posted many of the preliminary notes from The Classic Book of English Folk Songs. As stated above, the index to this information is in this thread. -Joe- |
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18 May 09 - 11:43 AM (#2634783) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Phil Edwards This: X: 1 T: My Bonnie, Bonnie Boy C: 19th Century English, from Broadwood and Fuller Maitland, English County Songs, London and New York, 1893 M: 3/4 K: C L: 1/4 E | F E D | dcd | A> B c/ A/ | FE D/E/ | F F F/A/ | G/F/ E/F/ G | A3-|A z E | F E D | d c d/B/ | A>B c/ A/ | FE F/ G/ | A d c/B/ | A D E | F/G/ A B/G/ | A2 (3A/B/c/ | d A/B/ c | BA/G/ A | D3-|Dz|| To see how it works, go to Folkinfo ABC converter, copy everything from the "X:" to the final "||" into the big white box and press "Submit". If you're reading or writing tunes on a computer, ABC is an incredibly lightweight, portable format. I've got an ABC file containing four different versions of My Bonnie Boy; it's 8 KB. For me, the advantage of ABC over dots is that I can't sing from dots, and I can barely sight-read with an instrument. So a single format which can generate both dots and MIDI - and which can be edited or transposed quickly and easily - is ideal for me. Plus the files are about 1% of the size of Noteworthy tune files, and they're plain text, so that you can tell by eye if anything's gone wrong. |
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18 May 09 - 03:11 PM (#2634997) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Ed Pellow By the way, it was Ed Pellow who transcribed all the Penguin tunes to MIDI, almost ten years ago now. Blimey, I'm getting old! I still read Mudcat a fair bit but tend to post as GUEST (because I'm a stubborn cuss! Indeed I posted above to point Richard toward the index thread). It's nice to be acknowledged though so thanks for the post, Joe. Cheers, Ed |
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18 May 09 - 04:46 PM (#2635131) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Richard Bridge Thank you. |
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19 Jan 12 - 03:10 PM (#3292978) Subject: New New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Ross Campbell Just came across this by accident:- New Penguin Book of English Folk Songs - Steve Roud due for release 7th June 2012, £20 The synopsis says:- "One of the great English popular art forms, the folk song can be painful, satirical, erotic, dramatic, rueful or funny.They have thrived when sung on a whim to a handful of friends in a pub; they have bewitched generations of English composers who have set them for everything from solo violin to full orchestra; they are sung in concerts, festivals, weddings, funerals and with nobody to hear but the singer. This magical new collection brings together all the classic folk songs as well as many lesser-known discoveries, complete with music and annotations on their original sources and meaning. Published in cooperation with the English Folk Dance and Song Society, it is a worthy successor to Ralph Vaughan Williams and A.L.Lloyd's original Penguin Book of English Folk Songs." Amazon(UK) have it on pre-order at £17 post free. The Amazon listing also credits Julia Bishop as author as well as Steve Roud. Ross |
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19 Jan 12 - 04:24 PM (#3293015) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Pete Jennings The original version, second-hand only, is available on Amazon. A bit pricey these days, but worth it IMO. |
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19 Jan 12 - 06:26 PM (#3293088) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Ross Campbell English Folk Songs (English Journeys), Penguin, 2009 has exactly the same content as the 1959 edition of The Penguin Book of English Folk Songs, and is available from Amazon (UK) from £0.01 plus £2.80 postage. (Amazon offers ) Can't find any better bargain today! Ross |
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19 Jan 12 - 07:47 PM (#3293128) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Desert Dancer I look forward to more detail about it when someone gets it, like a list of songs... ~ Becky in Tucson |
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19 Jan 12 - 10:45 PM (#3293161) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Reinhard The New Penguin Book will probably have a few more songs on its 496 pages vs. 126 pages of the old book. |
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20 Jan 12 - 04:27 AM (#3293215) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Brian Peters So does anyone know whether it's a revamp of Lloyd / Williams / Douglas, or an entirely new collection? |
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20 Jan 12 - 06:16 AM (#3293246) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,Derek Schofield The Steve Roud Penguin book is a completely new collection of songs ... a second Penguin Book if you like.... David Atkinson and Julia Bishop have also been involved, as have EFDSS. The Classic English Folk Songs (a new edition of the original 1959 Penguin Book, edited by Malcolm Douglas) is still available from EFDSS and elsewhere. Penguin republished the original 1959 book as English Folk Songs (English Journeys) in 2009. Hope that all clear now :-) Derek |
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20 Jan 12 - 06:28 AM (#3293249) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Brian Peters Thanks Derek - no bugger tells me anything. Given the authors, the new Penguin is going to be a great book, but 'Classic English Folk Songs' is excellent too, especially for those of us who grew up on the original 'Penguin' and are curious about the provenance of songs about which Bert Lloyd was sometimes a little vague... |
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24 May 12 - 11:22 AM (#3355103) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Desert Dancer EFDSS now has a page up about The New Penguin Book of English Folk Song, Edited by Steve Roud and Julia Bishop. It links to a May 12 review in the Times, but that's not accessible for non-subscribers. The EFDSS page has an excerpt. It also links to the Penguin page on the book. Interesting - they are making available as an e-book, as well. And there will be a book launch event at C Sharp House on June 12. The event is free, but they recommend advance booking. via EFDSS on Facebook -- the way we at a distance can be on top of the news... ;-) ~ Becky in Tucson |
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24 May 12 - 11:45 AM (#3355116) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Jack Campin I was at a singaround a few days ago where somebody was using the original Penguin. Or rather, part of it - he couldn't read the musical notation and was mostly guessing the tunes from a very timeworn memory. (In principle, that might be a way to create interesting new tunes - didn't happen then, though). Maybe there's a market for yet another edition... |
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24 May 12 - 12:37 PM (#3355143) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,Derek Schofield and the new issue of English Dance & Song magazine - in the post to members/subscribers this weekend/early next week - has an interview with Steve and Julia about the new book. Derek |
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24 May 12 - 01:21 PM (#3355160) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Jim Carroll Pre-publishing copy now available from The Book Depository postage-free to anywhere, at €24 - whatever that is, translated into old money (%24 off). Just put my order in. Jim Carroll |
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24 May 12 - 01:22 PM (#3355161) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Steve Gardham 151 songs plus extensive notes on each. For most of the songs probably the last word, and where not Steve recommends further research. What is very rare in British anthologies is Julia's well researched comments on the tunes. Nearly all researchers and anthologists are text-bound like me. The only thing it lacks is a list of contents song by song, but there is an integrated index of first lines and titles. Sorry, Becky, but I haven't got time to type out all 151 titles. If you're looking for a particulkar song or two, I could easily check for you. Generally they are mostly unpublished versions of really well known songs, in fact the selection was based on the most frequently collected 151 trad songs in England. |
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24 May 12 - 01:36 PM (#3355165) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Steve Gardham I might add, amazingly cheap at those prices quoted above, when you consider the research, the number of songs and it's a hbk. |
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24 May 12 - 01:45 PM (#3355168) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Big Al Whittle It was hardly a hot number. I bought one for a quid in a remaindered bookshop in Matlock - you know the sort that flogs editions of Dickens for a quid, I remember i bought an edition of Swinburne on the same occasion. Must get round to opening those books one day. |
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24 May 12 - 01:46 PM (#3355169) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Another scoop from Amazon . They will be selling the book at £16.25 inc p/p. It can be ordered now, for delivery from 7th June. |
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24 May 12 - 05:58 PM (#3355236) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Steve Gardham Wow, Fred, that's amazing! It's not a particularly expensive binding but a hardback nevertheless with 542 pages. That's about the same price as the slim paperbacks EFDSS are publishing. How have they done it? |
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24 May 12 - 07:37 PM (#3355271) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,Brian Peters Er, by insisting the publisher grants them a massive discount?? |
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24 May 12 - 08:26 PM (#3355292) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Surreysinger I ordered mine from Amazon on 21 January ... and I see that it's due for despatch on 8th June .... can't wait! :-) |
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24 May 12 - 09:22 PM (#3355307) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Big Al Whittle Perhaps you'd be best waiting til the new edition appears in the remaindered shops. I think they do make too many copies of a lot of books. Amazon is amazing - after a year sometimes you can get a book thats cost £20 for a penny, plus about three quid postage. I can't work it out at all. You can get a nearly new copy of the Gordon Bowker book about James Joyce tonite (lousy reviews - so I didn't get it) on Amazon for £4.17 - before Christmas it was over twenty five in Waterstones. Not even six months - so I'd be reluctant to part with my shekels by pre-ordering anything. |
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25 May 12 - 01:04 AM (#3355345) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: dick greenhaus Most book resellers get a 40% diacount---nice, but not enough to get rich on. Amazon demands 50%. |
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25 May 12 - 05:36 AM (#3355402) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Surreysinger As to waiting till it gets remaindered - always a dangerous prospect in case it doesn't. (I can think of several folk orientated books that are still selling at the full original price two or three years after publication). And anyway, who wants to wait to get their hands on a new supply of songs? Not me! I was recently reading a hardback biography with folk interest ... 164 pages of content for £50. £16.95 is ,as was pointed out, a very reasonable price indeed for a hardback of somewhat academic content of this size. |
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25 May 12 - 05:51 AM (#3355405) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Steve G. "......with 542 pages. That's about the same price as the slim paperbacks EFDSS are publishing. How have they done it?" Probably by buying in bulk. I've had some amazing discounts with Amazon, including the Blind Willie McTell biography and the Alan Lomax biography. BTW., Amazon and EFDSS are both quoting 608 pages. Not that it matters overmuch. 542 or 608, it's going to be a massive must have, and doubtless edited to Roud and Bishop's usual rigorous standards. Nice to see, BTW., that it's a completely new selection and doesn't incoporate any of the songs from the original PBEFS. So it hasn't rendered the earlier publication in any way redundant. That's especially great because there's no way I could have brought myself to part with it after all these years. |
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25 May 12 - 05:57 AM (#3355407) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Jack Campin Amazon also pays their workers the lowest wages they can get away with and treat them like concentration camp prisoners. I have never bought anything from them and have no intention of ever doing so. |
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25 May 12 - 06:24 AM (#3355418) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Jim Carroll Would still strongly recommend The Book Depository - a company based in the North of England, wide range of stock, reasonable discounts on all books, helpful (and most important of all) contactable staff, and free postage to any part of the world. Not as cheap as Amazon in this case, but I'm with Jack C on this - Amazon is a soulless giant with a robot mentality. Jim Carroll |
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25 May 12 - 06:28 AM (#3355420) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Big Al Whittle 'like concentration camp prisoners' how do you mean? I buy lots of stuff off Amazon, But I won't if that's true. |
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25 May 12 - 06:43 AM (#3355421) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Jack Campin I'll look for the details tonight- two stories broke in the same week a few months ago, one about workers being locked into a warehouse in New Jersey with inadequate ventilation in blazing summer heat, and another one from Scotland where delivery drivers were locked in windowless sheds with their vehicles with no means of escape in the event of fire. The firm was a no-unions-allowed shop from the very start, so this was entirely predictable. |
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25 May 12 - 06:49 AM (#3355425) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,Derek Schofield Didn't I read recently that The Book Depository is owned by .... Amazon? We all want to get a good deal when we buy anything ... the important thing with this new book is to buy it - wherever we buy it from - and support Penguin's initiative. Same with the Bert biography.... I must admit to being in 2 minds about buying from Amazon ... on the one hand, books and CDs are cheaper, on the other hand, they are screwing the publishers and don't pay (enough) tax.... Derek |
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25 May 12 - 06:53 AM (#3355427) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Jack. I've heard rumours of Amazon's culpability before, but nothing concrete. So if you can supply the details that would be excellent. I too buy a lot of stuff from Amazon. But if the facts are as stated, then they've had the last order they'll ever get from me. |
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25 May 12 - 06:59 AM (#3355429) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Tootler Ordered mine from the Book Depository. Thought I'd try them as my daughter uses them quite a lot. BAW: I think Jack has a tendency to hyperbole, but from what I have heard elsewhere, Amazon are not the best of employers. However their UK operation is bound by UK law so have to pay at least minimum wages and otherwise conform to minimum employment standards. Also a lot of stuff from Amazon actually comes from third parties who use Amazon as a "shop front", so it's worth checking who the stuff is actually coming from. |
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25 May 12 - 07:51 AM (#3355441) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Jim Carroll "Didn't I read recently that The Book Depository is owned by .... Amazon?" I heard it was being considered by Abe Books for takeover, but I haven't heard that anything has happened yet. Jim Carroll |
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25 May 12 - 07:59 AM (#3355442) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Hyperbole or no, wages and working conditions in the supply industry are pretty horrendous at the best of times. I know because I've worked in it, and for one or two other barbary coast employers. The fact is that the minimum wage falls a long way short of a living wage, and similar can be said of minimum employment rights. And that's before we get on to the subject of what the present government is doing to said employment rights. So if Amazon refuses to recognise trade unions, and generally treats its employees like shit, then I feel a moral duty not to trade with them. Having said that, and re. the "shop front" aspect, I have bought a lot of books and CDs from legitimate traders selling on Amazon for as little as 1p. I don't understand the economics. However, I imagine it's stuff that said traders want to get rid of, and would rather it went to a good home than get dumped. The point is that, although these transactions go through Amazon's books, they don't usually involve Amazon employees, and cannot be any financial advantage to Amazon. Therefore, at the moment, I think I can continue to use the "shop front" with a clear conscience. But I would like to know if other people know otherwise. |
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25 May 12 - 08:15 AM (#3355448) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Jack Campin My employer sells stuff through Amazon that way. Amazon takes a cut on the transaction. There is a very small profit to be made by charging for shipping. It comes to far less income for the seller per unit time worked than even the minimum wage, but that doesn't matter to a charity that's using volunteer labour. Means the volunteers are really working for Amazon for free, though. I think it's pretty disgusting. I'd bet that the workers processing the accounts are in some remote-working centre in the Third World and getting the same sort of wages you get for dismantling brake linings in scrap. |
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25 May 12 - 11:45 AM (#3355518) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Carole Bannister Hello there, funnily enough I've been looking at this book only a couple of days ago and I have it right here! ISBN 978014119092 English Folk Songs R.V.W and A.L.L I bought it in Waterstones about 2 -3 years ago. |
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25 May 12 - 11:47 AM (#3355522) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Carole Bannister Forgot to say its a small paperback and part of the book series Penguin did in 2009 called "English Journeys" Hope all this helps. |
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25 May 12 - 11:51 AM (#3355523) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Desert Dancer Carole, it's a new book being discussed here now (aside from the economics of Amazon.com!), "The New Penguin Book of English Folk Song" edited by Steve Roud & Julia Bishop. See links here. ~ Becky in Tucson |
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25 May 12 - 12:03 PM (#3355531) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Carole Bannister Thanks Becky, I shall order it from Waterstones tomorrow, its on their website for £16.30 and available for preorder. |
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25 May 12 - 12:06 PM (#3355532) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Carole. The Penguin Book of English Folksongs was originally published in 1959, the editors being A L Lloyd and Ralph Vaughan Williams. It was reprinted/republished several times, my own copy being from the late '60s, most recently in 2009. What's being mooted here is in effect a completely different book. It's much bigger than the original and, from what I can gather, includes none of the songs which were in the original. In other words, the title is just a hook to ensure healthy sales. It will anyway, because I'm going to browbeat and cajole everyone I meet into buying a copy. But not from Amazon. |
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25 May 12 - 01:48 PM (#3355577) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,Eliza Thank you to Mudcat, as I wouldn't have known about this book! Have just ordered a copy and it will arrive after June 12th. (Sorry, but I did use Amazon!) I always feel that folk song lyrics are true poetry, and can be read as such even if you don't sing them. It sounds a super book to keep by the bed for dipping into before sleep.. |
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25 May 12 - 03:15 PM (#3355616) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Steve Gardham Hi, Eliza, That's exactly what I've been doing with it for the past week. It's already helped me to trace one obscure ballad I was looking for. Steve |
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25 May 12 - 06:03 PM (#3355686) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Jack Campin Here are some of the Amazon stories: treatment of delivery drivers in Scotland inside their Lehigh Valley warehouse Amazon's anti-union strategy attempting to unionize Amazon |
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25 May 12 - 07:20 PM (#3355719) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Dave Earl Ordered my copy ! |
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25 May 12 - 07:25 PM (#3355723) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Jack Campin I'm guessing somebody will have them for sale at Whitby. |
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26 May 12 - 06:45 AM (#3355822) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST Thanks Jack. I've printed the articles off and will be wading through them as soon as feasible. |
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26 May 12 - 08:14 AM (#3355835) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Dave Earl Ordered mine from Amazon Delivery said to be 09/06 Dave |
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26 May 12 - 09:35 AM (#3355851) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Big Al Whittle Thank you Jack for bringing this to my attention. I will certainly write to Amazon for their comments. It sounds like a terrible and unethical company that needs bringing to book. Reference to the holocaust though isn't really helpful. I think this is probably a matter that concerns many of us. maybe we need to act together. If the case against Amazon is uncontravertible. I will inform the musicians union - they sell a lot of musical equipment. There will be some way of proceeding against them. |
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26 May 12 - 10:22 AM (#3355863) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,Fred McCormick "Waterstones tomorrow, its on their website for £16.30". Sorry, I hadn't seen that one before. I've just checked and that's the h/b version, so a very competitive price. Next Question. Are Waterstones anywhere near as bad as Amazon in terms of how they treat their workers? |
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26 May 12 - 03:14 PM (#3355947) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Jack Campin A quick google reminded me that Waterstones was one of the first major employers in the UK to pull the plug on the Tories' "workfare" scheme, so they can't be all bad. On the other hand they do sell Amazon's Kindle. I don't have much problem with buying from them, though I've got Blackwells as a better alternative here. |
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29 May 12 - 04:22 PM (#3356959) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,Fred McCormick In case anyone hasn't noticed, Waterstone's who are advertising this book at the highly competitive price of £16-30, are now offering a furth 5% discount until the end of May. The advert keeps appearing on this site, but basically you will just need to enter the promo code HL5486 when pre-ordering. Well, 82p is 82p when all's said and done. Buy a third of a pint that will mate. |
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30 May 12 - 04:17 AM (#3357134) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Big Al Whittle Wouldn't it be great if penguins had written loads of folksongs and they brought out a book with them all ion. Classics like:- By gum! I've got cold feet Fish for lunch today Fish on the menu tomorrrow Oh bugger! Fish for lunch again... lets jump in and have a swim I fell for a penguin, name of Seth; but I can't stand his fishy breath |
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30 May 12 - 05:58 AM (#3357150) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: MGM·Lion No, Al ~~ you are getting confused with the New Folksong Book of English Penguins. Not the same publication at all! ~M~ |
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30 May 12 - 06:17 AM (#3357157) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Owen Woodson Actually the English Book of Penguin Folksongs. A surprising title, remembering that the only penguins we have here are in zoos, and none of them can sing. |
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30 May 12 - 06:21 AM (#3357160) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Big Al Whittle Its a bit like English folksong. Just because you're a penguin, it doesn't mean you understand it. |
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02 Jun 12 - 05:57 AM (#3358294) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Matthew Edwards Steve Bell once drew a penguin folksinger in action! Matthew |
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02 Jun 12 - 06:11 AM (#3358300) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Owen Woodson No. The quotation actually reads "If you're Big Al Whittle you definitely don't get it". |
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02 Jun 12 - 11:58 AM (#3358369) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Surreysinger Well my copy arrived this morning - and jolly nice it is too! Spent too much time leafing through it before getting on to the stuff that was supposed to be on the agenda, but it lives up to the blurb in advance. Lots of interesting introduction notes, and notes on the individual songs, and an interesting collection it is too. I'm looking forward to further examination over the weekend and beyond. (It was also a bonus to find that I was paying £3 less than I had anticipated at the pre-order price. ) |
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02 Jun 12 - 08:44 PM (#3358591) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Big Al Whittle Yes Owen, me and the rest of the English speaking world. Wot a good job. we have the middle classes to protect our wonderful culture. I'm sure it must have been an intellectual like yourself that wrote the Wild Rover - in a 15/16 time signature, arranged for the Lincolnshire bagipes, and sung by one of the folk music greats - whose opinions about folkmusic, we're not allowed to question. Despite the fact that the English people just don't get it. now what are you going to do about it? Change, or abandon folkmusic's links with the class that created it. Dimwits like myself, who really don't get it. |
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03 Jun 12 - 01:54 AM (#3358652) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Desert Dancer There's a time and place for that "discussion" you guys, and this is not it. I'm not sure what is, but this is not it. Cool it. ~ Becky in Tucson |
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03 Jun 12 - 04:28 AM (#3358667) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Big Al Whittle I agree. Good job, we've got a new book. |
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03 Jun 12 - 05:50 AM (#3358674) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Owen Woodson Al. Mudcat is a broad church, as is the revival generally. By and large Mucat members get on because we agree to exchange ideas, information or whatever without denigrating each other's musical taste. I have no idea what sort of music you're into and even if I did and detested it I wouldn't start attacking it on Mudcat. You however seem hell bent on sniggering at the kind of songs which I personally love, and which my working class forebears created and carried down through the centuries. Of all the goddamn cheek. English people singing English folk songs in England. At this rate they'll be flocking down to Cecil Sharp House and studying all those wonderful collections compiled by Sharp, Kidson, Vaughan Williams et al and issuing the stuff on CD under that (to you) highly misleading rubric, The Voice of the People. |
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03 Jun 12 - 01:39 PM (#3358817) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Big Al Whittle Snigger, snigger, snigger.....! Ho! Ho! Ho! |
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03 Jun 12 - 04:24 PM (#3358857) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Carole Bannister Just been reading through the comments about this lovely new book and I have to say, like Eliza it will be a great book to dip into so I can't wait for mine either. There's another book by the same author called "The English Year" Penguin 9780140515541 which goes through all the old customs month by month. "The Lore of the Land" Penguin 9780141007113 is another great dipping into book which lists all the folklore round the country by county. |
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27 Jun 12 - 10:51 AM (#3368643) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: matt milton I got my copy of the New Penguin a couple of days ago. Ordered direct from Penguin, via their website. It seems churlish to say so (it is a very handsome book, with a well written intro and great notes and clearly a labour of love), but I feel just ever so slightly disappointed. there just aren't many songs I haven't heard before. I suppose that's because it does what it says on the tin: it is indeed a collection of what I suppose you'd call "core repertoire": the authors deliberately went out to try to compile songs that had been collected many times. I suppose that means I'm "proper folkie" now. |
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27 Jun 12 - 10:51 AM (#3368644) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: matt milton Incidentally, the launch party for the book was great fun. Well, Sharps's Folk Club downstairs afterwards was: a real cross-section of a million different styles of singing. |
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27 Jun 12 - 02:19 PM (#3368749) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: MGM·Lion Amazon had somehow sussed I was into folk ~ I guess it must be because I got the Bert Lloyd biog thru them ~ so they emailed me with a £10-off offer, which I should have been a fool to turn down I suppose. It's on the way now, they tell me. ~M~ |
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27 Jun 12 - 03:13 PM (#3368777) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,Eliza I'm thrilled with mine. Even the cover is very beautiful, a black-and-white woodcut of a man leading a huge heavy horse. I've been dipping into it at night before sleep, and humming the tunes to myself! |
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27 Jun 12 - 03:55 PM (#3368800) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Steve Gardham Matt, There are probably no songs in there that you haven't heard before, but you won't have heard many of them in these versions. |
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27 Jun 12 - 05:41 PM (#3368845) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,Tootler A great resource. Even if you have heard the songs before it's great to have all the words and tunes plus notes on the songs. |
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27 Jun 12 - 06:03 PM (#3368851) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: matt milton "There are probably no songs in there that you haven't heard before, but you won't have heard many of them in these versions." Yes, granted, that's true in quite a few cases. The "Isle of France" song in there is my favourite in there so far: it's a beautiful tune that's very different to the versions I've heard sung by Nic Jones or Jackie Oates. Likewise the tune for "Bonny Fine Horseman" seems to be a fair bit busier and more ornamented than ones I've heard sung. |
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27 Jun 12 - 10:52 PM (#3368921) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: John P I just received a copy all the way around the world here in Seattle. Very exciting. The small amount I've been able to look through it so far promises many happy hours pouring over interesting tidbits of both song and research. |
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28 Jun 12 - 02:54 PM (#3369175) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,leeneia All well and good, but it's 608 pages long. Does it meet the first criterion for a successful song book? i.e, Does it stay open when you want it to? Or do you have to wrestle with it? |
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29 Jun 12 - 09:08 AM (#3369524) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Soldier boy This book sounds good but I just hope we don't all get 'brainwashed' into buying it as some kind of official 'Reference' and 'BIBLE' of English Folk Song. I just have this terrible fear and sense of doom that such a mighty tome of songs could end up becoming the UK version of the American "Blue book"! Shuddddddder!! Perish the thought!!! Sorry Sharp, I can hear you turning in your grave!!!! May I eat my own tongue and choke to death!!! Sorry folks, please put that horrible notion out of your minds completely and forever till hell freezes over. I never should have ............................................................................................................................................................................................................ |
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29 Jun 12 - 09:17 AM (#3369527) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: matt milton well, arguably it already was before it was written! In that the authors deliberately set out to compile songs that were "popular": songs that had been noted down and sung many times. I'd be keen to hear some recommendations of some English folk song books that have obscure and unusual/eccentric songs, actually. I think I have enough "core repertoire" song books on my shelves now. |
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29 Jun 12 - 10:02 AM (#3369545) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,leeneia Soldier boy, ya know that comic song that says "Go get the ax; there's a flea in Lizzie's ear." ? Your worries about the book are another example of that kind of fretting. |
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29 Jun 12 - 10:32 AM (#3369563) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST Got my copy last week and like Eliza it is me new bedside book, lovely for that mix of dipping, browsing and more serious study. The quality of the scholarship is superb; good introduction, valuable notes on each song, the singer, the collector, and what is known about its past. For me the book properly contextualises the "core repertoire" with its earliest traceable versions mainly in the broadsides, exploding for ever any lingering romantic notions that this material was purely oral, untainted by popular culture in written formats and descended to us through some mythical rural idyll of happy singing farm labourers (or miserable ones come to that!). It is DE-scriptive (Drawing on meticulous research) rather than PRE-scriptive, so i don't see it becoming the new rule-book on How It Should Be Sung. That would be silly and surely most of us are too intelligent to allow any one music collection (or expert) become the new dictator. For me this book is a feast for the ears, the brain, and the musical soul and does not make any claims to be other than it is: a collection of the MOST collected songs, but with selections of versions that are less well known. It is going to be a near-endless treat to have around! |
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29 Jun 12 - 12:57 PM (#3369623) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: foggers Ooops that last post was me without cookie! |
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29 Jun 12 - 02:34 PM (#3369691) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Steve Gardham Matt, if you want this material you don't even have to put your hands in your wallet, the Take6 and Full English websites (EFDSS) have thousands of these at your disposal, all with tunes and texts, and if you wish you can mix and match to your heart's content. Well said, Foggers. Why worry about what it isn't or might become? Let's just celebrate what it is, a bloody good book and a bargain at that! |
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29 Jun 12 - 04:43 PM (#3369756) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: MGM·Lion Just arrived. Beautiful handsome volume. Spent morning reading Steve's excellent synoptic & informative introduction. Impressed! Well done! ~M~ |
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04 Jul 12 - 08:38 AM (#3371832) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,Tim C exploding for ever any lingering romantic notions that this material was purely oral, untainted by popular culture in written formats and descended to us through some mythical rural idyll of happy singing farm labourers (or miserable ones come to that!). *I totally disagree. Oral culture is extremely powerful, cohesive, has nothing to do with idylls or romanticism, so you're putting your own issues onto a culture which, like anglo-saxon riddles, would have been passe around orally long before being written down by scribes. Here's my review fin the Independent from last weekend: It's a greta book, and beautifully done. http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/the-new-penguin-book-of-english-folk-songs-edited-by-steve-roud-and-julia-bishop-7899516.html |
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04 Jul 12 - 10:23 AM (#3371866) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,Blandiver Oral culture is extremely powerful, cohesive, has nothing to do with idylls or romanticism At the very heart of folk rests the disparity between the condition of The Tradition (oral / working class / non-academic / fluid / vernacular / filthy / real) and The Revival (literary / upper & middle-class / academic / set in stone / received / romantic / idyllic). I'd say that's a truism - like saying Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull ripped off Rahsaan Roland Kirk for his flute technique. This isn't to fly off the handle and reject Jethro Tull, nor yet is it to fly off the handle and trash The Revival - though in reading such books as Fakesong and The Imagined Village one can't help but feel a wee tinge of ire in the face of the less celebratory consequences of the good old British Class System. As ever The Devil lurks in the details, especially in the vague prescriptions of the entirely useless 1954 Definition which is still used as a Credo for the Orthodox who view Folk Song as an essentially anonymous / collective / unwitting phenomenon, the individual creative processes of which are quite unlike those of any other musical tradition or genre. There persists the notion of the Noble Pure Native Folk Singer whose authenticity is largely determined by their innocence of the taxonomical / musicological significances of the song they sing (and thus play a significant part of the shaping & survival of). Furthermore, the belief persists that such feral creative folk processes are essentially occult - like the innocent peasant girl who enjoys a frolic with her lover is ignorant of the process of conception that is taking place in her womb even as he mounts his horse and makes off into the sunset. To all this, and more - the Idyllic and Romantic notions on which the Revival is pedicated (indeed, the entire notion of Frazerian Folklore) - I say a big HMMMMMMM. I've been singing, researching & exploring Traditional English Speaking Folksong & Ballad now for nigh on 40 years. Musically it is my first love & my every perfect joy, but I remain a working-class non-academic who believes, somewhat heretically it would seem, that the individual creativity of Folk Song is no different from that of any other musical idiom / genre or tradition, and that many of the assumptions of The Revival are born of class condescension and imperial patronage. Whilst this state of affairs is writ large enough in The Imagined Village, and given harsh critique (albeit in overlaboured Marxist terms which could be said to be something of a fly in the ointment) in Fakesong, it doesn't appear to be much of a concern in the Folk World as a whole. Here the Old Singers are seen simply as jolly old souls eagerly complicit in imparting their culture to their social betters and grateful for the attention and, in many cases, exposure which they wouldn't have enjoyed otherwise (one hears tales of Davie Stewart busking up his audience at The Cecil Sharp House who are unaware that this common raggy beggar is the man they'll be hailing as The Real McCoy once he takes the stage within). The songs are then cleaned up and subjected to all the other diverse indignities of the various Revival Stages (be it the parlour piano arragements of the early 1900s or the Macrame Beat Folk Rock of the 1970s, or indeed the Weirdlore of the early 21st Century) whilst the pure heart of the thing recedes. Compare, say, Archie Fisher's Kielder Hunt with that of Willie Scott; compare June Tabor's Gamekeepers with that of Bob Roberts. There is a huge disparity between the two; an aesthetical gulf as vast as the cultural yearnings that underpin the very nature of The Revival born of pure romance. Even the most ill-educated of us refer to our songs by their Roud & Child numbers if only to give credence to how seriously we take this music, and in doing we drift yet further from its once feral soul as a once thriving popular music into the realms of Idyll and Romanticism born of the very disparity which kicked the whole thing off to begin with. In saying such things I'm not being Anti-Revival, just aware of the Credos and the Religiosity of those who chose to accept the orthodox dogmas without once questioning the reality of Folk / Folklore as a construct of bourgeois patronage (at worse) and (at best) idyllic romanticism which determines the aesthetic of the revival. This, I feel, is writ large enough in the handsome edition that is New Penguin Book of English Folk Song, which, having briefly perused at copy in Waterstone's yesterday, I bought on Amazon last night, and will no doubt enjoy perusing at leisure when it arrives in the morning. Jack Blandiver (i.e. The Mudcatter Still Known as Suibhne O'Piobaireachd / GUEST Suibhne Astray until such time my request for an official name-change is honoured...) |
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04 Jul 12 - 11:04 AM (#3371885) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: KingBrilliant just bought on kindle from Amazon - on the basis that then I can do a text search. Might have to buy physical book as well though - cos cant really flick through a kindle in the same way |
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04 Jul 12 - 11:27 AM (#3371891) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Jim Carroll "exploding for ever any lingering romantic notions" "The Case of the Lingering Romantic Notions" - wasn't that one of the lost Goon Show scripts - (hope I'm not the only one old enough to remember The Goon Show)? It would be interesting to learn exactly what "romantic notions" it does "explode" - the editors seem to have selected a collection of songs that fit pretty neatly into the "entirely useless" 1954 Definition, no Victorian tear-jerkers, no music hall material, no 20th century pop songs, so snigger-snogwriter compositions - damn - is it too late to demand my money back? "I've been singing, researching & exploring Traditional English Speaking Folksong & Ballad now for nigh on 40 years" I have been researching folksong and ballads for night on forty years (in my time off as a working electrician) - and can play you recordings of the likes of Walter Pardon and Traveller Mary Delaney defined their songs.... and not a "literary / upper & middle-class / academic" in sight. "Here the Old Singers are seen simply as jolly old souls eagerly complicit in imparting their culture to their social betters " Where would that be then? I've never met a collector, researcher, academic who holds such notions; maybe at the beginning of the last century, but Harry Cox singing Van Dieman's land and then going into a rant about the seizure of common land in East Anglia, or spitting out "that's what the buggers thought of us" after having just sung "Betsy The Serving Maid" soon laid that particular ghost. It would be nice to get some solid references to your claims, otherwise "they're all in the mind, you know", (back to the Goon Show, I'm afraid). The ranting remains the same Sub - only the name has been changed to protect the innocent! "The Mudcatter Still Known as...." The guest Mudcatter, surely? Jiim Carroll |
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04 Jul 12 - 12:16 PM (#3371913) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,Blandiver the editors seem to have selected a collection of songs that fit pretty neatly into the "entirely useless" 1954 Definition. These songs exist entirely independently of such prescriptive nonesense and owe their existence to the creative mastery of the working class men & women who made & sang & changed them (or not) in the fluidity of their natural habitat - these masters, as I say, of their vernacular art, like Tommy Armstrong, or James Armstrong or George Bruce Thompson, or the many others who remain, alas, nameless. The uselessness of the 1954 Definition is that it tells us nothing about Folk Song that isn't true of any other musical idiom, without very (Romantic / Idyllic) notions of just what sort of thing a Community might be, or how an 'Oral Tradition' differs from any other sort when all living traditional musical idioms are in a constant state of creative flux. Otherwise, it covers the Victorian tear-jerkers, music hall, 20th century pop songs, & snigger-snogwriter compositions (etc.) just as well as the songs included here. Jack Blandiver PS - My guest status is dependent on the limits of technology at this end which won't keep me signed in. It's such a palaver signing in each visit it's easier to be a guest, but if anyone wishes to PM me they can do so as long as my handle remains Suibhne O'Piobaireachd, which it will do until Joe Offer honours my email request (of 22-6-12) to change it to Jack Blandiver. |
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04 Jul 12 - 01:06 PM (#3371940) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Jim Carroll Once again you are pretending to demolish straw men of your own construction. We've been here before Sub - you are presenting caricatures of unidentified "literary / upper & middle-class / academics" and putting analyses that no longer exist, if they ever did. When asked, the source singers have defined the songs we have chosen to call "folk". 54 is no more than an attempt to bring some sort of consistency to what we have learned - if you don't accept what we have come up with, offer your own. Once again you prove the old construction trade adage that it is always easier to pull down what somebody else has built than build something of your own. You folkies really get me! Jim Carroll |
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04 Jul 12 - 02:29 PM (#3371982) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,Blandiver The only difference is idiomatic, Jim. Otherwise music's music, be it Folk Song or Heavy Metal. Other than that, it doesn't really need defining, just observing, and describing rather than prescribing. All musics are the product of Individual Human Creative Genius operating out of a mastery of a culturally / communally defined idiom. Some individual compose as groups (we hear this of Balinese Gamelan & King Crimson) but the core of any group is the uniqueness of the individuals it's comprised of. Otherwise, as I say, once we start using the taxonomy (which we all do) then we're buying into the academic realm in which Folk exists as something quite distinct from The Tradition (which is a Folkish concept too really) in which things were very different. |
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04 Jul 12 - 03:29 PM (#3372008) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Steve Gardham Jack The Revival is a pleasure-based thing with many people delighting in the ballads, the tunes and their performance. If some of this is based on idyllic romanticism, so what! The research and study is an entirely separate thing though many of us enjoy both the performance side of things, and finding out more about the history of the songs and indeed the people who preserved them. Again their origins are also separate from this. The oral tradition has nothing to do with origins, only the ways in which the material has been passed on. Whilst I partially agree with you on definitions, these are and can only be general guide-lines, and for researchers they are very useful, perhaps not so much for those just enjoying the music. |
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04 Jul 12 - 04:31 PM (#3372037) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Jim Carroll "Other than that, it doesn't really need defining" That may be your choice Sub - if so, why spend so much undefining the work of others without without offering anything in return. You just want to turn folk music into the pap you do - fine, but don't tell others what they should be doing - I think 'folk police' is one of your favourite phrases. "If some of this is based on idyllic romanticism, so what!" Loaded phrases again Steve. I usually find phrases like "Idyllic romanticism" - not a million miles away from 'finger-in-ear', a sort of easy fix for those with an agenda to push. It's a little hard to summon up much romanticism when you're working with, say Travellers on a rat-infested site, or maybe an asthmatic trying to get songs from Appalachian singers in the first half of the 20th century. Please stop copping out and put your arguments - I was beginning to think you were better than that. Perhaps you'd like to point out some "idyllic romanticism" here - the silly idea that working people are capable of artistic creation without having to put their songs out to tender maybe?? Jim Carroll |
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04 Jul 12 - 07:06 PM (#3372084) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Steve Gardham WE were all referring to attitudes of some singers in the revival, Jim, nothing to do with the reality gritty stuff of the oral tradition. I can't really link up 'idyllic romanticism' with 'finger in the ear', but if they are both phrases that you dislike then so be it. I think I said pretty plainly I have no axe to grind with anyone in the revival who wants to look at the body of songs in this way. I also used the word 'If'. |
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05 Jul 12 - 04:00 AM (#3372202) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Jim Carroll "WE were all referring to attitudes of some singers in the revival" Sorry if I have misunderstood Steve - YOU may have been referring to the revival, Sweeney was not, rather he was doing his old usual of dismissing all past scholarship other than that of the 'baby-out-with-the -bathwater' mob, without either evidence nor alternative. In the past YOU have dismissed the work we have done with traditional singers with terms not a million miles away from "idyllic romanticism"; I thought you were at it again - if not, apologies. One of the important aspects of traditional songs for me is their being (as I firmly believe they are) carriers of social information of a people who have largely been excluded from our written history. If, as you have suggested, our folk songs are no more than commercial products no different than the outpourings of the present day popular music industry, that aspect is completely undermined - but I would need far more evidence than has been presented by you so far to even consider such an idea. I take it from his tone that Sweeney disapproves of the choice of the editors of 'The New Penguin Book' because the material presented fits fairly neatly into the '54' definition and, as I said, includes no "Victorian tear-jerkers, music hall material, 20th century pop songs, snigger-snogwriter compositions" - and no heavy metal. It's a little difficult to grasp what particular windmill he is tilting at with his 'smoke and mirrors' style of debate, however his sneering at the work of people who have bothered to raise their bums out of the armchair and make an effort to find out for themselves remains both obvious and unchanged. For me, at the very least the New Penguin Book is an affirmation of what many of us understand as folk song - a great piece of work, beautifully presented (despite the somewhat "romantic" 'son of the soil' cover illustration!!) Jim Carroll |
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05 Jul 12 - 04:48 AM (#3372219) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,Blandiver That may be your choice Sub - if so, why spend so much undefining the work of others without without offering anything in return. It's not so much undefining, Jim, as pointing out the disparities between the one thing & the other. Beyond that, as I've said, it doesn't need defining, just describing - which is what ethnomusicology is. I've known ethnomusicologists turn in papers on heavy-metal bands in Whitley Bay and barbershop 4tets of Middlesbrough, and I'm sure I don't need to remind you of the remit of the ICTM, much less the litany of genres that might pass for Folk Music is our local folk club on any given night, any one of which could be described in ethnomusicological terms. Traditional Folk Song, we agree, is something very different. You just want to turn folk music into the pap you do - fine, but don't tell others what they should be doing Not so. The pap I do is pretty much my own thing actually. I always try to get as close to the source as I can, and acknowledge it, and urge others to do likewise. I also acknowledge that the pap I do (like every other revivalist take on traditional folk song of the last century or so from Cecil Sharp arrangements to Benjamin Britten to Alfred Deller to John Jacob Niles to Jack Langstaff to the Watersons to Steeleye Span to Peter Bellamy to Brian Peters to Sproatly Smith) is of a very different nature to the source. But I'm not interested in duplicating say, Harry Cox - but in singing Harry Cox songs in a session I'm more interested in talking about Harry Cox than I am about me. I'm always amazed & exasperated how many people people aren't bothered about the source, or else don't regard the old singers in any sort of esteem as masters of their sacred art. To me that's second nature, but, yes, as you say, the pap that I do isn't about trying to sound like them - that would be patronising & absurd. I think 'folk police' is one of your favourite phrases. No. Folk Police is one of my favourite record labels. In the past I've referred to Folk Dementors who would suck the very soul out of the music in the name of a would-be but entirely misplaced Purism, though these days such people are few & far between so I tend to cherish them. I don't mind too much what anyone does in The Name o' Folk, just as long as they acknowledge the source. Hell, I'm just happy when people bother to sing Traditional Songs without getting all burned up as to how they sing them. |
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05 Jul 12 - 05:00 AM (#3372225) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Jim Carroll Still no qualifications of your insulting dismissal of the work and opinions of others - including some of the traditional singers you claim to be "more interested" in. Jim Carroll |
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05 Jul 12 - 05:13 AM (#3372227) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,Blandiver Oops. Missed this one: I take it from his tone that Sweeney disapproves of the choice of the editors of 'The New Penguin Book' because the material presented fits fairly neatly into the '54' definition and, as I said, includes no "Victorian tear-jerkers, music hall material, 20th century pop songs, snigger-snogwriter compositions" - and no heavy metal. Though I think I answered it in the first part of my last post. The trouble with the 1954 Definition is that it isn't about one particular genre; all it says, in a nutshell, is that Human beings form communities and in those communities they make music. Big deal, eh? The 1954 Definition tells us nothing about what a Folk Song is that's any different from any other sort of song. And yet we both agree folk songs are different, and we both agree with the editors of TNPBOEFS on their choice of material. I say that difference is one of cultural & social context and idiom - same goes for all the myriad musics on Planet Earth. |
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05 Jul 12 - 05:19 AM (#3372230) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,Blandiver Still no qualifications of your insulting dismissal of the work and opinions of others What insults? What dismissals? I'm not insulting anyone, or dismissing anything, just questioning a few shibboleths in the interest in giving credit where credit is most surely due and in the interest of promoting the silly idea that working people are capable of artistic creation without having to put their songs out to tender... |
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05 Jul 12 - 06:15 AM (#3372248) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Jim Carroll Your long-term sneering dismissal of everybody's work except your hard-to-find own is deeply insulting and is compounded by your persistent refusal even to challenge it with facts or even reasoned argument. You persist in pontificating from the safety of your verbiage - I find that deeply offensive. The 54 definition is an attempt to define a certain type of music - it is not an ethnomusicalogical one - it is a folkloristic one It is widely recognised that it is in need of updating, or even replacing, pretentious debunking doesn't hack it for me. Jim Carroll |
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05 Jul 12 - 06:27 AM (#3372249) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,Brian Peters 'Jack': the reason that people like Jim Carroll (and me) get cross with your arguments is that you refuse consistently to acknowledge that anything has changed in the way of folksong scholarship since 1905. To hurl familiar slogans about 'cultural imperialism' and 'condescension' at the folksong movement in its entirety is to insult collectors like Jim, Mike Yates, or John and Katie Howson, who have operated with a very different agenda to the Edwardians whose attitudes Harker dissects (though, having read Sharp's Appalachian diaries, I've found even in that bogeyman's writings more respect and affection for the singers than condescension). It really isn't news to anyone who's bothered to think about it, that the Revival is culturally different from the Source. We knew that, thanks. And, as for definitions, I can't imagine how the editors of 'New Penguin' could have arrived at their selections without using something along the lines of '1954' (but please don't let this turn into another thread on that tired old topic). To reject a definition, yet to "agree folk songs are different", sounds suspiciously like the position of F. J. Child and his followers (so mocked by Harker): "we can't define a ballad, but we know one when we see one." |
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05 Jul 12 - 06:30 AM (#3372251) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: MGM·Lion "the somewhat "romantic" 'son of the soil' cover illustration!!" - Jim Carroll .,,. I think not, Jim. It is not a 'son of the soil', a ploughman with his horse, but a gentleman's servant [a groom] exercising his master's horse ~ Identified inside back cover as 'Stallion and groom by C F Tunnicliffe' ~ which gives a different gloss and emphasis, of certain class differences, rather than the 'town & country' dichotomy which you seem to read into it. Equally to be found as topic in many of the songs, but not specifically rural. ~Michael~ |
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05 Jul 12 - 07:10 AM (#3372263) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,Blandiver It's not even Folkloristic any more, Jim - if it was then it would be seen from the sham that it is, where community is enshrined in terms of idyll and romance rather than humanity. These days we have ethnomusicology and ethnology; instead of the International Folk Music Council, we have the International Council for Traditional Music. As others have pointed out - the 1954 Definition attempts to prescribe the conditions of a pre-existing music rather than describe what that music is. That it can be applied to any community - be it village musicians in Bali, or heavy-metal musicians in Whitley Bay housing estates - tells how useless it is; as you say, an outdated shibboleth in severe need of revision. My argument is that we don't need definitions and that the very concept of Folk Music, like Folklore, is long past its sell-by date. Folk is an anomalous construct quite seperate to the songs, musics, customs, dances that it perceives as being 'Folk'. For sure, such traditions thrived and existed long before anyone postulated the existence of a Folklore, or a Folk Music, whatever the evidences might have been pre-revival. Post-revival it's very different; Folk becomes (in part) a precious gathering of the authentic wherein everything is accounted for in terms of its likely provenance and 'meaning', rather than what it actually is i.e. disparate random happenings where the experience is different for everyone. Folk is born of social & cultural apartheid. When we were kids I remember our Folkish Pedagogues telling us that our innocent playground rhymes were echoes of The Black Death, and our Xmas tree decorations vestiges of ritual sacrifice. All that can be shown to be palpable nonesense now, thank God, although 'The Folklore of Folk' is such that such ideas persist as myths in their own right. Even the long discredited work of Sir James Frazer et al is enjoying a modest revival in the murkier corners of the revival. Talk about idyll & romance! We still have 'professional' storytellers telling children of the Green Man and how the grisly goings on at Hallowe'en are rooted in Pagan practise and veneration; and still there persists very queer notions of the pure and the proper and the authentic in terms of hierachy rather than meritocracy - thus we have 'folk families' and pure-blood traditions & exponents thereof where all I see is a free-for-all melting pot of cultural opportunism & diversely gifted & creative individuals giving rise to some great music, just as they always have done. My personal taste is for the old songs 'n' ballads, just I find the folkish myths a bit precious. Likewise with the Green Man and other less obvious iconography of the Medieval Christian Tradition which Folklorists are keen to tell us are Pagan, but which most demonstrably are not. These things fascinate me because I love them so much; I see them as immediate manifestations of vernacular genius, but the very term Folk is so loaded as to be next to useless - all a long way from your rather silly idea that working people are capable of artistic creation. It is that silly idea that I hold on to though my very life depends on it; indeed, it is that silly idea that Folk would serve to deny. |
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05 Jul 12 - 07:39 AM (#3372268) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Jim Carroll Thanks a million Brian - far more articulate a summing up than my knee-jerk. Mike, Sorry a devils advocate prod with the pitchfork on my part - I know and like the illustration. "Folk is born of social & cultural apartheid." Folk is born of a human need for people to re-represent in poetic form (in the case of folk song) the things that move them rather than have somebody do the job for them. Jim Carroll |
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05 Jul 12 - 08:07 AM (#3372275) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,Jon Dudley Straying away from the learned arguments being bandied about, may I say that I think that the book itself is beautifully produced (apart from the typography of the spine), and that the use of the Tunnicliffe wood engraving is inspired. To have chosen to keep the illustration intact on the front cover by desisting from the normal practice of smothering it with type was a brave decision and one I fully support. It feels luscious, the paper's good and the layout makes it very readable. OK, not something you could slip in your pocket but just a lovely 'thing'. I think that Mr.Roud, his team, and all responsible for its seeing the dignity of print are to be congratulated. Now you can get back to discussing the content, motives and things I can't even pretend to understand. |
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05 Jul 12 - 08:09 AM (#3372276) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,Blandiver Folk is born of a human need for people to re-represent in poetic form (in the case of folk song) the things that move them rather than have somebody do the job for them. I'm talking about Folk as an extraneous concept to the pure essense of the old songs born of working-class creativity which are exactly about the things you say they are, Jim. These songs weren't made as 'Folk Songs' - they weren't made to fit with the 1954 Definition or any other concept of folk - they made as idiomatic vernacular popular songs, pure and simple and entirely 'innocent' of folk. Folk, in the 1954 sense, is so much more than idiom, or even context, it is an ideology hatched in isolation from the very thing it claims to revere. It's complicated, because it's thanks to the diligence & hard work of the collectors that we have all this stuff anyway, but it's an antiquarian specialism of little interest to anyone outside of a very select scene of enthusiasts all a long way from the people who made the songs in the first place, or those who occupy the same social strata today. In saying such things I'm not demolishing, attacking or dismissing anyone. It's just the way it is. No malice intended. |
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05 Jul 12 - 08:15 AM (#3372281) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,Blandiver I think that Mr.Roud, his team, and all responsible for its seeing the dignity of print are to be congratulated. Me too; I'm expecting my copy any day now. Now you can get back to discussing the content, motives and things I can't even pretend to understand. Whatever's under discussion here, it's certainly not the book itself which will have pride o' place on my bookshelf alongside all the other volumes of Roud, Penguin, Child, Grieg Duncan etc. etc. |
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05 Jul 12 - 09:45 AM (#3372316) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Jim Carroll "These songs weren't made as 'Folk Songs' - they weren't made to fit with the 1954 Definition " Of course they weren't, and it is extremely misleading to suggest that anybody has claimed that they were (a fairly common style of argument in your case). The term 'folk' and the definition came later with attempts to understand the phenomenon. That doesn't mean to say that the people who gave us the songs didn't have their own ways of identifying them - 'old', 'come-all-ye', 'local', 'Clare', 'Traveller', 'my father's songs' - in Walter' Pardon's case "folk".... all used by singers we've spoken with . Nor does it mean that they didn't regard them as different from the mass-produced mass. In our experience, it is those who refuse to recognise that as a genre, they are unique and identifiable from all other types of song who are out of step with the tradition, not those of us who feel the need to lift the corner to find out what's underneath. As far as the '54' definition goes, as flawed as it might be it will still continue to act as a guide until someone comes up with another. I welcomed the possibility when I heard Dave Harker was planning to take on the task, but - oh dear, talk about taking a hatchet to the dead. Sharp and his mob might have got it wrong - pioneers and innovators tend to - but along with Brian, he still has my respect and gratitude, and when comared to the smug hindsight of Fakelore and The Imagined Village..... Jim Carroll |
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05 Jul 12 - 10:12 AM (#3372329) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,Blandiver I find Fakelore a tad overdone in places but its heart is in the right place; even as a Marxist I find the Marxism a little heavy handed. The Imagined Village on the other hand just tells it like it is, pure and simple as a history of a movement. Then there's Folk by Bob Pegg, which I'm going to have to read again, but his Riots & Riots was a bit of an epiphany for me when I first read it. |
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05 Jul 12 - 11:30 AM (#3372363) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Dennis the Elder I have just downloaded the book on to my iPad. Some great information and excellent folk songs. I am certainly going to enjoy reading it. Just one criticism, its a good read, however,looking for a particular song, the name of which you know is not easy. Too many places to look, an index would be a massive improvement. There are links provided, but you have to search through a lot of places to find them. The pros far outweigh the cons. |
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05 Jul 12 - 11:35 AM (#3372368) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,Blandiver Oops! Make that Fakesong... |
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05 Jul 12 - 03:01 PM (#3372475) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Steve Gardham Dennis, This point has already been presented and addressed by Steve on the Tradsong Forum. iPad technology in presenting non-fiction still has a long way to go, compared with paper copy. Some people who downloaded the eBook have already decided to buy paper copy to get the full Monty. Steve promised to contact the ePublishers to see if anything can be done but we're not holding our breath. |
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05 Jul 12 - 07:00 PM (#3372591) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Dennis the Elder Thanks Steve for the information, lets hope the technology catches up!! I wish Steve all the luck with the ePublishers, If I had realised the problem I would have bought the book, but I begrudge buying both, |
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05 Jul 12 - 07:33 PM (#3372610) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Tootler I bought the paper copy of the New Penguin Book but I have recently bought an eBook version of another song book and I came to the conclusion that publishers haven't really 'got it' when it comes to reference type eBooks. The book I bought had a complete song list with page numbers of the songs. There is only one problem, eBooks don't have page numbers and the location data is totally different. Contents pages and indices need to be hyperlinked to be any use and that's the problem. Publishers don't seem to be willing to do that, or have not recognised that you can't really browse eBooks in the same way you can browse paper books. A different approach is needed. |
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05 Jul 12 - 09:01 PM (#3372636) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Surreysinger Hoorah Dennis and Tootler - a part of the thread and a conversation I can actually understand without having to read certain passages five or six times before finally conceding to myself that I still don't understand what the heck is being said and fought about. And this despite a good education, being well read, and having self educated myself on the subject of folk song and related items for many years since I first took a childhood interest! May I add (if I hadn't already somewhere in this now lengthy thread) that I think the book is great. PS Could we please dispose of the repeated statement that the book doesn't contain any Victorian tear jerkers or music hall type songs ? "The Mistletoe Bough",a parlour ballad written by Thomas Haynes Bayley and Sir Henry Bishop is certainly a Victorian tear jerker in my estimation, and features as number 126 in the book (albeit collected from a more recent singer). |
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06 Jul 12 - 01:15 AM (#3372693) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: MGM·Lion Slight drift? Bob Copper once said that he & his cousin Ron hated that 'Victorian tear-jerker' when they were children; so when one of the older family members would be singing it, they would sit in the corner together rendering the chorus as "Oh, the miserable row, Oh the miserable row!" ~M~ |
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06 Jul 12 - 03:36 AM (#3372715) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Jim Carroll "Could we please dispose of the repeated statement that the book doesn't contain any Victorian tear jerkers" You are right of course SS, one that slipped under the wire - apologies - though it is often described as 'traditional'. "hated that 'Victorian tear-jerker'" Walter Pardon didn't regard it as 'folk', even though he sang it. He described it as a parlour song and said it always reminded him of aspidistras. Walter and the Traveller Mary Delaney, both with huge repertoires of traditional songs, also had non-traditional ones they were reluctant to sing. In Walter's case, when you asked him he would say, "What do you want thet old thing for?" but would sing it when pressed. He described how his cousins "took up the new songs" while he preferred the old ones and set out deliberately to preserve them. Mary Delaney, on the other hand, who had a large number of Country and Western songs, refused to "waste her time singing them" for us. She said she only sang them "because that's what the lads ask for in the pub". She went on to say, "the new songs have the old ones ruined". Both of them had phenomonal memories; Walter could quote almost verbatim, chunks of Hardy and Dickens and reel off all the members of a national cricket team from 30 /40 years earlier. Mary's memory seemed to have developed because of the fact that she had been blind from birth - she claimed to be able to sing a song through "after a couple of hearings". Jim Carroll |
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06 Jul 12 - 05:46 AM (#3372745) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,Blandiver I'm alarmed by the reports on the ebook edition. When we're so used to linked pages from indices on websites you'd think this would be second nature to ebook publishers. Or is it too much work preparing a index with links?? What is the use of a reference book without the means to reference? Talk about being up shit creek. Someone else reported to me recently they felt the quality of the paper of the NPBOEFS was a tad transparent. Still waiting for mine (today hopefully???) so I can't presently say, though I didn't notice anything amiss during a brief persusal of the volume under the bright lights of Waterstones in Preston the other day. * As for not being able to understand what the heck is being said and fought about, it goes back to a comment made by Tim C on the 4th July at 8.38 am that Oral culture is extremely powerful, cohesive, has nothing to do with idylls or romanticism. Think on't... |
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06 Jul 12 - 07:08 AM (#3372758) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Tootler Ebook publishers are, for the most part, existing publishers of paper books and are maybe not savvy on how to design for computer use. While creating a hyperlinked index can seem a tedious task it can be automated. I tried it with a song book I'd created myself, using Open Office and setting up the contents page so it was hyperlinked to the individual songs. It wasn't difficult but when I tried saving as html, there was so much extraneous formatting tags that it would have taken forever to reduce it to a manageable level. Most ebook formats are based on html under the bonnet but elaborate formatting isn't needed for the most part. I convert individual songs to mobi format for my Kindle with a very limited number of tags and it works well. With the song book I mentioned earlier which was a book of songs with notation and chords for the ukulele, it looks as if the publishers have not really thought it through. The notation is as images but they are not scaleable, even on my android phone which will happily scale pdf files so they can't be enlarged for easier reading. The contents/index page looks as if it's a single image. I suspect the publishers have done a "quick and dirty" job which does not do justice to the possibilities of ebooks. As to the paper version of the New Penguin book of English Folk songs, the paper seems quite good quality but it's true it isn't as opaque as it might be and you can see what's on the other side faintly. Also some of the page cutting is a bit awry, but nevertheless it's worth every penny. |
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06 Jul 12 - 09:07 AM (#3372802) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Jim Carroll |
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06 Jul 12 - 01:30 PM (#3372873) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Dennis the Elder Hi Surreysinger, I agree some threads do wander off the subject and get a little complicated and confrontational. I do however like the brevity of the previous comment from Jim |
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25 Jul 12 - 09:21 PM (#3381546) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: John Routledge I am delighted to agree with every positive comment made about this wonderful book with the following personal reservation which I have now learned to live with :0) My copy was bought from Waterstones online and I today called into a Waterstones store to air my concerns about the intrusion of the print from two pages ahead of the page being read. Two staff members confirmed that this was inevitable in view of the poor quality of the paper used. They confirmed that this happened in some other books in varying degrees to keep production costs down. I was shown three other books chosen at random two of which had very slight transparency with the third being almost fully opaque. I would have been delighted with the quality any of the three. Those who have "Bert" will know where I am coming from. Completely unprompted I was offered a full refund or another copy if I were happy with the copy in stock. As expected the stock copy was identical mine but without the two damaged corners so I accepted the exchange. Great to be now able to explore the delights of a wonderful book!! |
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26 Jul 12 - 05:03 PM (#3381907) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Steve Gardham John, When I got my copy I read it almost straight away from cover to cover. Presumably I was so engrossed that I didn't notice what you describe, but now I have checked and mine's the same. The only problem that will cause for me is sometimes I like to print off pages for my own personal use to compare versions and the verso page might intrude on my copy. However I shouldn't think many people would want to use the book like I do. |
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26 Dec 12 - 04:27 AM (#3457130) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Marje I just got a copy of this for Christmas. Yay and thrice yay! It's a real treat and I'm quite looking forward to the departure of the family so that I can get stick into it in peace, perhaps with a glass of sloe gin to hand. Recommended for anyone with book tokens or Chrsitmas money left to spend. Marje |
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26 Dec 12 - 05:55 AM (#3457141) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Brian Peters And I'll be going up to Fellside studios in the New Year to record a selection of songs from New Penguin, in the company of Bella Hardy, Lucy Ward and James Findlay... |
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26 Dec 12 - 07:04 AM (#3457170) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Marje Great news, Brian, keep us posted! Marje |
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26 Dec 12 - 02:35 PM (#3457301) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Peter the Squeezer I think I prefer Mr (Les) Barker's version - "The English Book Of Penguin Folk Songs" |
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26 Dec 12 - 03:29 PM (#3457313) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: MGM·Lion Sorry PtS ~~ we flogged that particular joke to death back on 30 May. |
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26 Dec 12 - 03:48 PM (#3457330) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: GUEST,Jack Sprocket I read the thread subject as "RE: New Pension Book of English Folk Song".. I'm feeling my age... |
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11 May 13 - 01:55 PM (#3513903) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Reinhard The Fellside album that Brian Peters mentioned on December 26, The Liberty to Choose: A Selection of Songs from The New Penguin Book of English Folk Songs, will be released on June 10. But it can already be bought from Fellside's online store. Dave Eyre played three tracks from the CD on yesterday's Thank Goodness It's Folk and you can listen to them on the programme's broadcast. One track was sung by Brian Peters, one by James Findlay, and one by Bella Hardy and Lucy Ward. They are really beautiful. By the way, the CD title is a phrase from The Seeds of Love. |
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11 May 13 - 03:42 PM (#3513935) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Stilly River Sage I have a fondness for that slim volume - I think it was the first folk song book my father brought home when he decided to get serious about folksinging in his spare time. After he retired he was finally able to spend a lot more time pursuing that interest. And when I emptied his house after his death, the last book to leave the house, missed because it was almost hidden in his bookshelves, was the Penguin Book of English Folk Song. Checked out from the library where he worked all of those years ago and never returned. :-) SRS |
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12 May 13 - 08:00 AM (#3514166) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Marje In case anyone gets confused: the New Penguin Book of Folk Song is anything but slim, it's quite a hefty, hardbacked tome, and is a completely different in content from the original and much-loved Penguin paperback. Both are well worth having. Marje |
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06 Apr 21 - 06:29 PM (#4101067) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: Stilly River Sage A discussion of this book turned up on the Facebook page (where it will quickly vanish from sight). I've posted this thread's link there. https://www.facebook.com/groups/mudcat/post_insights/10158596416368577/ The only way anyone will be able to find that post after a little while is to have the link (or spend a lot of time scrolling through the page). |
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08 Apr 21 - 06:13 AM (#4101341) Subject: RE: New Penguin Book of English Folk Song From: The Sandman Thankyou Stilly |