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09 Jun 09 - 10:53 AM (#2652229) Subject: Folk Against Fascism From: Folknacious Apologies if this has already been flagged up, but I was just emailed news of this new Facebook group and organisation which seems to have gone from nothing to nearly 600 members in less than two days. |
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09 Jun 09 - 11:06 AM (#2652239) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: bubblyrat Depends what you mean by "Fascism"-----a great many people today seem to be confusing it with Patriotism,sadly.One only has to calmly and logically express the opinion (to which one is fully entitled)that there is too much uncontrolled immigration into this country (UK)and people are jumping up and down crying "Racist ! "--"Fascist!"--"Nazi !" in a frenzy of Do -Goodery. Please calm down,and allow the majority to be heard properly before slandering them.Then go and live in the country of your favourite foreign ethnic group (if they'll have you !!).And try not to mix politics with folk music, it gets very TEDIOUS.Thankyou. |
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09 Jun 09 - 11:07 AM (#2652240) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) Folk Against Fascism is growing by leaps and bounds, as it should, treminding one (even though I'm too young to really remember) of Rock Against Racism May the spirit never die! |
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09 Jun 09 - 11:11 AM (#2652241) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "And try not to mix politics with folk music, it gets very TEDIOUS.Thankyou" Your listening must be very limited in that case, as a large amount of folk music(whatever that is)is politically oriented. Time to take off the blinkers and take some social responsibilty. It was the head in the sand attitude that brought Hitler to his full flowering. |
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09 Jun 09 - 11:13 AM (#2652244) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Gervase And try not to mix politics with folk music, it gets very TEDIOUS.Thankyou. Honestly, there's no hope for some people! |
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09 Jun 09 - 11:17 AM (#2652249) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) "And try not to mix politics with folk music, it gets very TEDIOUS.Thankyou." Bubblyrat, I think you might not be appreciating the purpose of the campaign. It's not as such a 'political' movement (though it's going to be impossible for it not to become so), as demonstrating a collective dissaproval of fascist politics currently deliberately appropriating our collective folk music as a form of pro-fascist propaganda - precisely as happened in Nazi Germany. As others have commented German folk music has never fully recovered from the stain of being forced into prostitution to very dark political ends. This is not a 'politicising' of folk music as such, but an attempt to reclaim it from those who *ARE* currently politicising it to a fascist agenda. I hope you might recognise the difference. |
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09 Jun 09 - 11:22 AM (#2652260) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Banjiman "And try not to mix politics with folk music, it gets very TEDIOUS.Thankyou. " How else do we counter the odious BNP threat...... or do you think their policy of repatriation for non-whites is a good one? |
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09 Jun 09 - 11:23 AM (#2652261) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) PS. JoanC good job! I don't do Facebook, so I hope that this thread might perhaps offer the rest of us, an update on progress. Much interested to hear more, and hopefully participate in any ways appropriate. |
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09 Jun 09 - 11:25 AM (#2652262) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Rich Arrowsmith It was started because the f******* BNP have said that they are the only people who can save Morris dancing and folk customs. This site is for people to say that they don't want the BNP talking for or having anything to do with English customs. We can manage them ourselves without help from scum like that. |
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09 Jun 09 - 11:27 AM (#2652263) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) Just accept the fact that politics has been involved in folk music (whatever that is) for a VERY long time. Sorry to be soooooooo... tedious *LOL* |
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09 Jun 09 - 11:28 AM (#2652264) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge I most certainly do not confuse patriotism with xenophobia or fascism, but I do not recognise the bubblyrat version as capable of being distinguished from the sordid peddlings of the BNP. |
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09 Jun 09 - 11:33 AM (#2652269) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Banjiman I don't do facebook either.... any chance of starting a MySpace page as well? Paul Arrowsmith |
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09 Jun 09 - 11:40 AM (#2652275) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) You may have to do Facebook...I've said the same thing, but JoanieC is tempting me.... *sigh* |
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09 Jun 09 - 11:42 AM (#2652276) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Aye... I hate those FakeFriends sites (except music), but I might join for this. |
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09 Jun 09 - 11:43 AM (#2652277) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer Myspace is on its way, as is a website. The website will be for information about plans - everything from making stickers and badges available to a large-scale concert or tour (and given some of the people already supporting this, we're not talking pie-in-the-sky - something exciting is going to happen). The Myspace will hopefully help the community to grow, and showcase some of the artists who are involved. Considering that this whole idea is only a day old, I'm frankly staggered at the response. It's clearly hit a nerve with a lot of people. |
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09 Jun 09 - 11:45 AM (#2652279) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Banjiman Eddie/ Joan, Anything either we or Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club can do to help..... just let me know. Paul & Wendy Arrowsmith |
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09 Jun 09 - 11:50 AM (#2652281) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) Right at this moment I'm listening to the Albion Country Band's Battle of the Field, particularly Richard Thompson's The New St. George/La Rotta, on my MP3 player. It's VERY inspiring, I want to get up and dance, unfortunately I'm in the library...they might fron a bit *LOL* |
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09 Jun 09 - 11:51 AM (#2652282) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer Cheers - that's great. |
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09 Jun 09 - 11:52 AM (#2652283) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lox Thing is bubblyrat that when questioned, you have said on other threads that your reason for being concerned about immigration basically boils down to not liking different looking people around. I could go and get the post - I think it might have been in the carol thatcher thread - but your big concern was that basically you didn't see why you had to have foreigners in your town, for no other reason than that it is your town and you don't like them there. In the absence of any other rationale, that is best described as discriminating on the basis of someone elses race. That's why people shout "racist" - its cos of the racist things you say. Generally I think its realistic, if you say racist things, to expect someone to call you racist. |
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09 Jun 09 - 11:54 AM (#2652285) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) "given some of the people already supporting this, we're not talking pie-in-the-sky - something exciting is going to happen" It's fantastic. I've been in something of a rash over this stuff since I cottoned on when I first got into folk six months ago. Wonderful to see someone like JoanC who's so perfectly placed to do so, ready to take the bulldog by the balls... So to speak. Really exciting news. |
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09 Jun 09 - 12:00 PM (#2652287) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer Yeah...already kinda waiting for the poo to be posted through my door. |
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09 Jun 09 - 12:02 PM (#2652288) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Rich Arrowsmith Rifleman!! My favourite album! My copy has got scratched to bits, I need another. 'When the sun comes up in the morning, and you hear the dancing boys...' Rich |
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09 Jun 09 - 12:03 PM (#2652289) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) >Archer ref. eventually clicks...!< :-) |
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09 Jun 09 - 12:03 PM (#2652290) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Dave Sutherland Folk singers were among those on the CND marches and sang the songs in the folk clubs. Folk singers demonstrated at the Anti- Vietnam rallies and sang the songs in the folk clubs. Folk singers demonstrated against the Poll Tax and sang anti - Thatcher songs in the folk clubs. Now it looks like there will be some anti - BNP songs sung in the folk clubs and festivals. Sounds like it has been pretty "tedious" for the last fifty years!! |
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09 Jun 09 - 12:13 PM (#2652299) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Tom Bliss Let me know about the MySpace, Joan, and anything I can do. Tom. |
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09 Jun 09 - 12:15 PM (#2652303) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Folkiedave Depends what you mean by "Fascism"-----a great many people today seem to be confusing it with Patriotism,sadly. Nope perfectly clear in my mind. The BNP are a fascist party and there is a video of Nick Griffin denying the holocaust. Filthy race based politics and Folk Against Fascism is designed to stop these people infiltrating (as per their orgnisers handbook) into local folk customs. Well done Joanie. |
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09 Jun 09 - 12:23 PM (#2652310) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi I also want to say "Well done!" to JoanC. I have a MySpace page but don't have a FaceBook account. I'll jump on board when the MySpace page is launched. ** Dave listed these examples of folk singer's involvement in politics: Folk singers were among those on the CND marches and sang the songs in the folk clubs. Folk singers demonstrated at the Anti- Vietnam rallies and sang the songs in the folk clubs. Folk singers demonstrated against the Poll Tax and sang anti - Thatcher songs in the folk clubs. -snip- Expanding this list outside of Britain, Folk singers sang songs during the civil rights movement in the USA. It might be a good idea to include such a listing on the FaceBook/MySpace pages or at least on the upcoming Folk Against Fascism website. What else can be added to this list? |
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09 Jun 09 - 12:24 PM (#2652312) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) Rich I still have my copy (given to me for my 21st bithday, by my parents)on vinyl, very scratched like yours *LOL* My sister found it on CD, in, of all places, a chain record shop (A&B Sound) in Victoria, BC, Canada, and I've transfered it to my MP/ player for listening when I want to (like now) Now is the time for action, Leave your satisfaction: Can't you hear St George's tune? St George's tune is calling you on! Freedom was your mother, Fight for one another: |
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09 Jun 09 - 12:27 PM (#2652318) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman well done, Joan. |
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09 Jun 09 - 12:28 PM (#2652321) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi BTW, if the FaceBook and MySpace Folk Against Fascism pages are meant to have international membership* you might want to stay away from or at least define the acronyms. For instance, I don't know what "CND" means in this sentence "Folk singers were among those on the CND marches and sang the songs in the folk clubs." * It occurs to me that maybe that organization is only meant for people living in Europe. Can some one clarify this? |
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09 Jun 09 - 12:30 PM (#2652325) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: mandotim Well done Joan, I'm in. |
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09 Jun 09 - 12:34 PM (#2652332) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer Azizi, it's for anyone who opposes what the BNP is currently doing in the UK by trying to appropriate our national customs and music as part of their racist agenda, or indeed what any White Supremacist organisation (for, by identifying that they share values with the KKK, this is what they are) do when they try and usurp a national identity and claim it as theirs and theirs alone. The focus will largely be on the campaign as it unfolds in the UK. But you will be most welcome. :) |
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09 Jun 09 - 12:38 PM (#2652334) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Amos Azizi: THe people who first used what later became the "Peace" symbol were British anti-nuke demonstrators who frequently marched under the flag of the Committee for Nuclear Disarmament, with banners showing the semaphoric lines-in-a-circle that (rumor has it) was first designed by GB Shaw. The symbol was taken up and made even more widely known by the youth of the Sixties in the US who used it to symbolize protest against the LBJ War in Vietnam. A |
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09 Jun 09 - 12:40 PM (#2652338) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Amos Correction: "One of the most widely known symbols in the world, in Britain it is recognised as standing for nuclear disarmament —and in particular as the logo of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND). In the United States and much of the rest of the world it is known more broadly as the peace symbol. It was designed in 1958 by Gerald Holtom, a professional designer and artist and a graduate of the Royal College of Arts. He showed his preliminary sketches to a small group of people in the Peace News office in North London and to the Direct Action Committee Against Nuclear War, one of several smaller organisations that came together to set up CND. The Direct Action Committee had already planned what was to be the first major anti-nuclear march, from London to Aldermaston, where British nuclear weapons were and still are manufactured. It was on that march, over the 1958 Easter weekend that the symbol first appeared in public. Five hundred cardboard lollipops on sticks were produced. Half were black on white and half white on green. Just as the church's liturgical colours change over Easter, so the colours were to change, "from Winter to Spring, from Death to Life." Black and white would be displayed on Good Friday and Saturday, green and white on Easter Sunday and Monday. The first badges were made by Eric Austin of Kensington CND using white clay with the symbol painted black. Again there was a conscious symbolism. They were distributed with a note explaining that in the event of a nuclear war, these fired pottery badges would be among the few human artifacts to survive the nuclear inferno. These early ceramic badges can still be found and one, lent by CND, was included in the Imperial War Museum's 1999/2000 exhibition From the Bomb to the Beatles. " |
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09 Jun 09 - 12:44 PM (#2652344) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Spleen Cringe Great idea Joan. I've joined up. BTW, I reckon if they come knocking you'd be better off pushing the dogpoo out of the letter box at them! Now off to listen to 'Battle of the Field' on the way home... |
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09 Jun 09 - 12:45 PM (#2652346) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi Thanks for that clarification, Eddie. Count me in! I guess because the organization is for anyone who opposes the BNP's attempt or any other White Supremacist organization's attempt to appropriate British national customs and music as part of their racist strategies, you may not have to include explanations of what all those more obscure (to non-British people) alphabet references like CND mean. However, it still might be something that you want to provide on your page or website for those who are supporting the organization from outside of the UK. |
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09 Jun 09 - 12:47 PM (#2652348) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Matthew Edwards Well done to JoanieC for setting this up. Another disturbing feature of the European election results has been the election of MEPs from the extreme Jobbik party in Hungary. This is an openly anti-semitic party which has also supported persecution of the Roma community. This Observer report of 3 May 2009 shows how widespread and dangerous the persecution of Gypsies in Hungary has already become, and what the Jobbik policy towards the Roma means. So since June 2009 is Gypsy Roma Traveller History Month lets celebrate the cultural achievements of these communities too. There is a very interesting looking DVD on sale called 'The First Traveller' with songs stories and music, including a contribution from Sheila Stewart MBE. Matthew Edwards |
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09 Jun 09 - 01:04 PM (#2652357) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer Folk Against Fascism Myspace I should add that while I've actually been working today, other people have been beavering away at this stuff. Steve Hunt made the Myspace. Chris Williams made the logo. All credit. I'm just the messenger. |
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09 Jun 09 - 01:53 PM (#2652380) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: George Papavgeris I'm there, on both. My concern is that there should be follow-up; not just people signing up and thinking they've done their bit. This isn't simply a petition, I see it as signing-on for action. |
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09 Jun 09 - 01:55 PM (#2652381) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Banjiman Agreed George. |
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09 Jun 09 - 01:58 PM (#2652383) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi Oh, that CNP :o) Yes, I know that symbol as "the peace symbol". Thanks for that info. And btw, I've joined the MySpace page and will forward information about that page to my MySpace friends. |
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09 Jun 09 - 02:08 PM (#2652390) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Barden of England I've put the following on my 'Facebook' page 'In memory of my Tollpudle brothers, I am delighted to join my fellows in the 'Folk against fascism' fight. We ARE the power, we ARE the might, we ARE the ones, who will show what's wrong and right. John Barden |
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09 Jun 09 - 02:14 PM (#2652396) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: bubblyrat Well, I just watched the evening news on BBC television,and was saddened to see and hear about the disruption to the BNP's Press Conference----it would have been interesting to see what they had to say !! This organisation,which I do NOT support ( I voted Green & UKIP in the recent elections,if you must know), is,however, NOT illegal (sadly) and therefore there is NO justification for the crass behaviour of the baying mob that disrupted its activities. So who is being the more intolerant, controlling,bigoted,selective and prejudiced here then ?? Even if you HATE HATE HATE the BNP,which most of you / us do, they STILL HAVE THE RIGHT ,in our democracy,both to their views and to be heard.Only a REAL FASCIST would deny them that !!! That's the point that I am trying to get across,that my father fought for in WW2,and to which your intense HATRED has blinded you.There are ways to get rid of the BNP---But yours is not it ! Or is Democracy itself that you REALLY hate,because that's how you are coming across ? Is it too permissive for your Fascist views ?? |
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09 Jun 09 - 02:18 PM (#2652397) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Banjiman Bubblyrat.... I don't think anyone here were involved in disrupting their Press conference..... surely in this country of free speech we are allowed to get our point across as well? Through words and songs I hope! |
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09 Jun 09 - 02:20 PM (#2652399) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Gervase Sorry? Mine's not what? The Folk Against Fascism campaign has nothing whatsoever to do with denying free speech or chucking eggs at people. Shaky eggs, maybe... |
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09 Jun 09 - 02:23 PM (#2652400) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer As far as I know, it was no member of the Folk Against Fascism group that threw eggs at Nick Griffin, so I'm not really sure what you're getting at. This is about a specific agenda and set of policies - the appropriation of British traditional music and culture to suit a racist and nationalist agenda. It's about raising awareness of that attampted appropriation, and standing up against it. It is not about throwing eggs at Nick Griffin or preventing him from speaking, no matte rhow poisonous his views might be, and not long before you psoted on this matter, I was explaining exactly that to my 15 year old daughter. So I'm not sure who you're screeching at, but I think your tirade might be somewhat misdirected. |
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09 Jun 09 - 02:28 PM (#2652406) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Barden of England It's DEMOCRACY. I have no truck with what went on today. It's the same as Mandelson getting green custard in the face though - and I didn't see your comment on that 'bubblyrat' The BNP has a right to exist, and we have the right to harrangue, verbally not physically, so I believe the idiots who threw eggs today have done the BNP a favour. Woe is me. John Barden |
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09 Jun 09 - 02:55 PM (#2652433) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: George Papavgeris No hate over here, Roger. Quite a lot of joy in fact, at living in a multi-ethnic, multicultural street, and I celebrated it in a song, which hopefully should be going up on the FAF Myspace page soon (thanks, Steve), albeit in a rough, unmixed version. It is intended as the opening track of my upcoming album, so it puts my stake in the ground so to speak. Here goes: STREET LIFE (October 2008 - all the characters are real) Monday morning, treading softly as I leave the house for work Chris next door had late shift Sunday night Full-time guard and part-time fireman, not a moment to himself And to wake him up would not be right. Tuesday and Mujeeb's good lady's grinding spices for their meal Aromas through the window they escape We all stop outside a moment just to savour the perfume It's a wonder how he stays in shape A different story every day of the week As different as chalk and cheese the faces that you meet And I don't care much where they come from Who they pray to, what they eat, But I am lucky living down our street Seven thirty, engines starting, scrapers scratching at the ice Hunter gatherers barely half awake Smiling grimly at each other, p'rhaps today will turn out nice Thursday morning, two more trips to make Janusz waiting by his front door for his morning lift to come Sandwich and banana in a towel All day working up the scaffold to bring home his daily crumb He's so good with mortar board and trowel A different story every day of the week As different as chalk and cheese the faces that you meet And I don't care much where they come from Who they pray to, what they eat, But I am lucky living down our street Love you Mummy, Love you Daddy, down at Number 54 Little angels on their way to school Hop skip jumping to whatever life might have for them in store May their winter years never be cruel. Friday night, the youngsters heading for the town to paint it red Learning lessons others learned before They'll be back before the day breaks, empty pockets, throbbing heads (they'd) Better not be banging on the door A different story every day of the week As different as chalk and cheese the faces that you meet And I don't care much where they come from Who they pray to, what they eat, But I am lucky living down our street Sunday morning, dozen mowers buzzing like a swarm of bees Perfect time for barbecue and beer Cross the valley watch the walkers chasing dogs among the trees And I swear that I've just seen a deer. Sunday evening, all is quiet, windows darken one by one Like a tunnel swallowing a train Soon enough alarms will ring like cockerels heralding the sun And we'll start the cycle once again A different story every day of the week As different as chalk and cheese the faces that you meet And I don't care much where they come from Who they pray to, what they eat, But I am lucky living down our street |
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09 Jun 09 - 02:58 PM (#2652435) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) Bubblyrat...if you're not going to help, please don't hinder those of us who're prepared to stand and be counted! It's that simple! |
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09 Jun 09 - 03:11 PM (#2652443) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Lock and Key Well said (as usual) George. |
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09 Jun 09 - 03:24 PM (#2652450) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Bubblyrat, I think as JC/Eddie may have stated, that the egg throwers are not likely to be amongst this exceedingly new gathering of folk enthusiasts - who are joining in order to express their collective objection (as they are right to do?) to the appropriation of folk music to a very specific and ugly right-wing political agenda. |
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09 Jun 09 - 03:25 PM (#2652451) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: VirginiaTam Damn! What I miss because I can't access Mudcat at work. Well, I am not going to rise to the dissenters. Not worth my time. What I am going to say is YAYRAH Joanie! I will add both Facebook and Myspace as friends or join the group or whatever it is I do, forthwith. Hmmm? Is there a Folk Against Facism on Twitter? |
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09 Jun 09 - 03:30 PM (#2652456) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Mrs.Duck Personnally I do not think the BNP have a right to breath let alone speak! There should be no platform for racism ever! |
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09 Jun 09 - 03:33 PM (#2652460) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace Mudcat management seems to disagree with you, Mrs Duck. |
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09 Jun 09 - 03:41 PM (#2652462) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) " Personnally I do not think the BNP have a right to breath let alone speak! There should be no platform for racism ever!" Let them speak, with every lie they tell, they dig their grave deeper. By th way (and I blame JoanieC for this, *LOL*) I'm now a member of facebook and am a member of the Folk Against Fascism group, seek out the photograph of the cover of Battle of the Field (in seemed appropriate. |
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09 Jun 09 - 03:49 PM (#2652469) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Kampervan Sorry Mrs Duck, but I believe that you're wrong. I loath the BNP and their view of the world, but the minute that you remove their right to speak then you become as bad as them. The important to thing to do is to speak against them and make sure that everyone knows the evil that lies behind their propaganda. |
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09 Jun 09 - 03:55 PM (#2652480) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Jeri Keeping people from posting is like keeping people from shouting out their opinions on a crowded city street corner. |
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09 Jun 09 - 03:58 PM (#2652487) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "Then let's DO that on their fucking site. NOT on MUdcat." It's called freedom of speech...deny that and as has been pointed out, you become as bad as the enemy |
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09 Jun 09 - 04:00 PM (#2652491) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Tom Bliss As with when we vote for parliament, it's all about numbers. If there's one post here supporting or appearing to support the BNP, let there be hundreds, thousands, saying the opposite. I say the opposite. Let them have their say, but let it be a whisper against a roar for reason, decency, tolerance, goodwill, equality and welcome. |
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09 Jun 09 - 04:01 PM (#2652494) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace Then tell management to allow the BNP as many threads as they want. NOT just one. |
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09 Jun 09 - 04:02 PM (#2652496) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace Or are people going to give 'freedom of speech' lip service? |
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09 Jun 09 - 04:29 PM (#2652541) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lox I don't condone the throwing of eggs. I think it undermines the protest and allows the BNP to claim the moral high ground. Note that I did not say it gives them the moral high ground, just that it allows them to claim it. I completely condone Folk against Fascism as it constitutes a forum in which the issue of Fascist politics can be constructively and informatively be addressed. Bubblyrat, well done for voting the way you did. My personal view is that UKIP are atrocious, but they are at least a party of issues, even if only on a shallow level. Your vote for the Greens well and truly puts me in my place. |
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09 Jun 09 - 04:33 PM (#2652546) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Tom Bliss Sorry, is that addressed at me? By all means, as many as they want. This is Mudcat's greatest strength (and greatest weakness). Our job is not to silence them (tempting though that is), it is to be better informed and more convincing than they are - and also to address the the things that cause people to support the BNP in the first place. Because it is surely all of our faults that they exist, and now have that voice. Tom Bliss |
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09 Jun 09 - 04:35 PM (#2652549) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Tom Bliss Sorry Lox - that was to Peace Tom |
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09 Jun 09 - 05:34 PM (#2652616) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TheSilentOne Folk Against Fascism is a great idea, and hopefully will develop into a great movement. A long time ago I was in the Anti-Nazi League. I don't think denying the BNP any platform is an effective tactic, but I DO think the opportunity should be taken to hold counter-demonstrations on every possible occasion. I do have a dilemma because I can't accept that an organisation which excludes non-whites from membership should even have the right to exist in a democratic society. But.. I don't see how it can sensibly be banned. |
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09 Jun 09 - 05:41 PM (#2652624) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman If I was a middle bar singer at Sidmouth and Georgina Dale[MBSGeorge the unsuccessful BNP Chippenham candidate ] turned up I would walk out . |
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09 Jun 09 - 05:41 PM (#2652625) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace Not specifically, Tom. I didn't intend any offense to you. If you took any, sorry. |
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09 Jun 09 - 06:52 PM (#2652685) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy i am in two minds here as are a lot of you i am sure. as much as i would love to ban any bnp supporter from ever talking their crap on any platform, i also don't want to be just like them in that not everyone has a right to free speech. i would rather have them say what they want on places like this and have them shown for the ignorant, racist,etc. that they are. than them meeting in secret and jumping out of bushes with no way of knowing what they are up to and where they will go next. sorry if that made no sense but i am sure you can work out where i was trying to go with it. the protsters have just as much right to be heard as the people they were protesting about it is about convincing the public of which side has the better arguement, as for the eggs... i dissagree with any violence and any form of assult, but i must admit if i had seen it i probably would have found it funny. i think we need to stay together and not to argue some small point that will ultimately lead to falling out amongst ourselves the people united, will never be defeated. if we all do our bit then victory will be ours. |
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09 Jun 09 - 06:54 PM (#2652687) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace I just applied to the Folk Against Fascism Myspace site. However, I ain't folk. Unless folk is the term used for people. I am that. |
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09 Jun 09 - 07:10 PM (#2652704) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Tug the Cox Some of the respondents above don't seem to have grasped the point about freedom of speech and fascists. They don't like freedom of speech, but are prepared to abuse it if people are foolish enough to give them a platform. It is not about a civilised debate with reason and evidence prevailing. In an audience of 100, if 98 smug liberals walk away congratulating themselves that they have 'won ' the argument', but two despersate, angry and dispossesed youths are attracted to the fascist methods, and join, the fascists have a huge result. They would laugh at self satisfied dismissals, and continue to prey on the vulnerable, which the liberals have provided them with. If this 'Debate' is legitimised by a public institution like a University or church, the result is harrassment of local minority groups, who see those who hate them being given credibility. NO platform for Racists and fascists.....believe me, after being involved in these issues for over 35 years, every inch given is a probable mile taken. |
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09 Jun 09 - 07:49 PM (#2652742) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Kampervan Sorry, T. t. C., when you start denying a platform to someone you disagree with, then the cure becomes worse than the disease. Loathsome though the BNP may be, we have to use open democratic ways to defeat them; otherwise they go underground and become even more difficult to counter. They are riding on the wake of the mess that the main parties have created. It's up to everyone of all political persuasions to help put right the sleaze and corruption and then make mainstream politics more attractive. That way voters won't feel the need to register a protest vote with bigots like the BNP. |
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09 Jun 09 - 08:35 PM (#2652778) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lox Like prostitution and drug dealing it goes underground. On the surface it can be managed. There is no way of rebutting arguments that are made behind closed doors. Those two youths could be persuaded at any time. They are less likely to be persuaded if there are other voices there pointing out the errors and misinformation of the BNP argument. The key with all of the above is openness and honest well documented non judgemental information. An educated person is a well armed and well prepared person. |
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10 Jun 09 - 03:47 AM (#2652944) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Over 800 members already! When I first looked at the site yesterday, it must have been brand new as it had about 30 members. Looking forward to seeing the website when up and running. Will the organiser/s be seeking charity status? I don't know how constructive or otherwise such a move might be, but it would seem a possible logical option for fund raising activities directed at awareness raising. |
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10 Jun 09 - 03:59 AM (#2652950) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: theleveller "Personnally I do not think the BNP have a right to breath let alone speak! There should be no platform for racism ever! " I'll second that! We have laws against inciting racial hatred, which is what BNP members do ever time they speak in public. The egg-throwers were merely drawing attention to the fact that these people need to be silenced or their invidious views could influence people, especially those who are exercising their voting rights for the first time, into thinking that this is legitimate politics. Folk music has a long and honourable tradition of opposing extremism of this sort and I welcome the opportunity to be part of movement like Folk Against Fascism. |
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10 Jun 09 - 04:01 AM (#2652953) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,FTF ? Crow Sister - Please elaborate upon your statement - SOURCE - Three Sources??? As others have commented German folk music has never fully recovered from the stain of being forced into prostitution to very dark political ends. |
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10 Jun 09 - 04:09 AM (#2652956) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Spleen Cringe I always slightly worry when the spokespeople for these sorts of protests try to claim they are acting with the moral authority of their community - who elected them? I think it would be a far more honest and powerful statement to say: "The first egg was for holocaust denial. The second was for inciting racial hatred. The third was for anti-semitism. The forth was for being a liar..." and so on. |
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10 Jun 09 - 04:22 AM (#2652962) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge I gather that someone variously calling himself "Richard Bridge" or "Hoff Bridge" is posting messages of support for the BNP at digg and sending abusive messages to members of the "folk against fascism" facebook group. "Hoff" is short for "Hoffmeister". There are only a very few places where I have used or been referred to by both names - and the 'cat is one of them. But "Hoff Bridge" isn't me. You may want to keep a wary eye on Daily Mail Reader - I suspect that he or his cronies are the guilty parties. |
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10 Jun 09 - 04:36 AM (#2652971) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: SPB-Cooperator Only a suggestion. Could this thread be mainly used for promoting the facebook group, promoting folk against facism gigs and events, discussions on the role of folk song and music in standing up to oppression both now and historically, and providing an opportunity for performers and audiences to identify themselves under the folk against fascism banner. That would then keep the political debate in the two BS threads, and hopefully keep the trolls and BNP propagandists out of this one. |
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10 Jun 09 - 04:49 AM (#2652982) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman I was reluctant to join facebook,but since this is such an important issue,I have joined Folk against Fascism. |
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10 Jun 09 - 06:07 AM (#2653011) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Vic Smith I don't want to see people like Joan and George repatriated |
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10 Jun 09 - 06:23 AM (#2653018) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Scotsman Over The Border Many thanks to Matthew Edwards for those links on the Roma and Travellers. Let the BNP speak, their so-called policies last about two seconds when held up to any kind of scrutiny. |
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10 Jun 09 - 07:03 AM (#2653029) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST I'm not joining Facebook even for this, but on MySpace I'm glad to see that my friend request to FAF and theirs to me crossed in cyberspace! And SPB-Cooperator: fully agreed - let's keep the political debate out of this thread and restrict discussions (as far as possible) to promoting this cause. I'll put something on our web site too - especially if Folk against Fascism starts a real web site of its own and I can link to it. If someone hasn't started one yet, I'm offering free hosting space for it. Anahata |
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10 Jun 09 - 07:07 AM (#2653031) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: treewind I'm not joining Facebook even for this, but on MySpace I'm glad to see that my friend request to FAF and theirs to me crossed in cyberspace! And SPB-Cooperator: fully agreed - let's keep the political debate out of this thread and restrict discussions (as far as possible) to promoting this cause. I'll put something on our web site too - especially if Folk against Fascism starts a real web site of its own and I can link to it. If someone hasn't started one yet, I'm offering free hosting space for it. Anahata |
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10 Jun 09 - 07:27 AM (#2653044) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Tug the Cox 'Sorry, T. t. C., when you start denying a platform to someone you disagree with, then the cure becomes worse than the disease' Kampervan, what exactly are you sorry about? Sounds either smug or patronising to me. We disagree, and it is not a trivial disagreement. I believe that it stances like yours that allowed fascism a foothold in the past, and could possibly do so again. Your quite accurate description of how civilised debate works in a kiberal democracy crucially relies on BOTH sides signing up to the rules. fascist groupd don't, they loathe and despise notions such as democracy and fre speeech. Whenever they have abused the democratic process to gaion a foothold, thet use the same process to suspend democracy and make fredom of speech a treasonable offence. The Psychology and tactics of fasxist movements is well documented, this is not a matter of opinion. Holding meetings, rallies, broadcasts etc. are used, when allowed, not to debate, but to syphon off the disaffected. No.... the two youths mentioned above could not have been recruited at any time, it is the particular circumstances in a highly charged political meeting that are used to prey on their emotions, not their intellect. having others present to refute the fascisit is negatively effective.... the targeted disaffected youths already feel betrayed and outcast by threxse pillars of the liberal society. Fortunately, most of our politiciana are not so naive. No-one, form any political party, was willing to share a platform with the Nationakl Front in the European referendum debate of the 70's, and the NF were denied a platform for their hatred. Nowadays, all parties refuse to appear on programmes like question time if the BNP are invited. Again, a platform that would be used to intimidate and recruit the dispossessed is denied. Mosley and his Blackshirts were stopped, not by debate, but because working class activists in solidarity with the jewish community built barricades an rrefused the Fascists their 'legal, democratic right' to 'peacefully' demonstrate and propagandise. The 'battle of Cable Street' is a landmark in opposing fascism NO platform for racisits and fascists, ever. |
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10 Jun 09 - 09:16 AM (#2653099) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: treewind "NO platform for racisits and fascists, ever" You simply can't say that in a post that criticises another group for despising free speech! The uncomfortable corollary of free speech is that it allows others to say things you disagree with. Of couse, as Hubert Humphrey famously said, "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously" and Voltaire "I don't agree with what you say, but will fight to the death for your right to say it". I don't actually feel comfortable about the "incitement to racial hatred" act because it's the thin end of the wedge of censorship of free speech. Anyway, nobody can stop Folk against Fascism from promoting its own message, so that's what we should be doing, loudly and frequently. Anahata |
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10 Jun 09 - 09:37 AM (#2653117) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Phil Edwards I think this is a brilliant initiative (and so does Pip Radish, who will be back shortly). We (liberal anti-fascists) tend to tie ourselves in knots about freedom of speech. I think it's worth distinguishing between what the law guarantees and what people want. Where I live, there was massive opposition to the opening of a new Tesco's last year - so much so that they were initially refused planning permission. They went to appeal and won, and they duly built the store and opened it - as they had every right to do. But if protesters had stopped the building going ahead, I think most people around here would have thought they were in the right. The BNP have every right to organise as a legal political party, and Griffin is an elected MEP and has every right to do that job: I would be 100% opposed to any attempt to ban the party or to have the fat fascist locked up. But if anti-fascists want to make it a bit harder for them to organise, or for Griffin to get his message across, then I'm not going to tell them they're in the wrong. It may be a tactical error - the counter-demo yesterday almost certainly was - but that's a separate issue. Anyway, FaF is a great initiative. Pip isn't joining Facebook either, but he's with you in spirit. |
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10 Jun 09 - 09:56 AM (#2653128) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,lox I accept richard bridges point that freedom of speech does not include the right to shout "fire" in a crowded theatre. However, I also think that a well targeted, concise and non pompous confrontation of the BNP can have the result of the anti BNP message spreading. Those two hypothetical lads might go back to their estate after witnessing such an encounter and carry the fight on when they encounter it there in a way that they might not have done had they not had the chance to hear the BNP view properly tested and shown up. |
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10 Jun 09 - 10:11 AM (#2653135) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,lox As for the eggs, guess whose ugly mug was on the front page of "The Metro" today ... (the Metro is a free national paper found on buses and trains all over the country and as such is probably th most widely read paper in the UK). And as it was because of the egg throwing that it got there, it meant that the papers had to focus on that aspect of the story. It meant that Griffin got to be quoted giving his response. Now there's a big f***ing platform if ever there was one ... well done egg throwers!!! It meant that the newspapers, in all fairness, so as not to be seen condoning any type of assault, had to ask the egg throwers what the hell they were doing. Do you think that any newspaper is going to condone that kind of approach? They will report the story. The story was that an elected politician was assaulted. It meant that the arguments against the BNP were drowned in a scrum and that Nick Griffin got to stand up in front of the whole country and look ... ahem ... whiter than white. No Platform for Fascists? I'm afraid that slogans like that will not cut it as a strategy to beat the BNP. You have to plan more than one move ahead. You have to be cleverer than them. You have to prove it. |
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10 Jun 09 - 10:18 AM (#2653139) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Big Mick What are you afraid of? That they will lure some easily influenced person into their snare? That is pretty paternalistic, and shows a lack of respect for the intelligence of average folks. To me it seems that it is our job to expose their ugly agenda. FAF is a great start. Challenging their point of view everywhere they spout it is the hard work. Banning is a lazy response, and it doesn't work. Doing so gives them "high road, victim" status. I prefer them in the light of day where their bigotry is easily seen. And remember that this sword has two edges. When you limit one persons ability to espouse ideas (even vile bigotted ones), how do we justify not limiting yours. And finally, as a matter of policy, we don't limit what folks talk about, with very few exceptions, such as anything that is considered personal attack. All the best, Mick |
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10 Jun 09 - 10:36 AM (#2653145) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST 100% with you Mick, on all counts. It is this potential of turning them to "martyrs" that worries me most of all. No, I prefer the BNP to continue and act as a focus for their hateful policies - that way we know were the danger lies. And by all means, let them join us in debate. Not sloganeering, name-calling or misquoting but normal, common-or-garden debate. We wouldn't change their minds or persuade them, of course. No one can. They have thought all these things through and made up their minds - if we think differently then we would be naive. But a public debate gets to be heard/read by the public. It is for their benefit that we should have it. Every chance we get. |
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10 Jun 09 - 10:49 AM (#2653154) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: George Papavgeris Sorry, that last GUEST was cookieless me... |
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10 Jun 09 - 10:59 AM (#2653161) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: folkandroots The problem perhaps with such debates is what you could be debating isnt what they actually think nor stand for but a very much watered down (for public consumption) version of this, the holocaust denial, enforced sterilisation the more dangerous racist agenda will be kept underwraps. Personally I have no doubt that some of those who have joined have been fooled (and are probably fools) and arent quite aware of what it is they have joined. |
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10 Jun 09 - 11:00 AM (#2653162) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: theleveller "And as it was because of the egg throwing that it got there, it meant that the papers had to focus on that aspect of the story." So you think the protesters might have over-egged it a bit? |
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10 Jun 09 - 11:12 AM (#2653174) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Bryn Pugh Deal me in. I endorse everything said in this thread, particularly what Crow Sister posted. The problem, as I see it, in denying the BNP pond life a platform is that they might be perceived as martyrs - "Just as we told you - those lefties deny us a platform because they are feared of our message". (Just realised that I am repeating that which Big Mick, and George P, said above. Duh ! {it has been a long day] ). May I say that I abominate the BNP and everything it stands for, just in case my comments above might be misinterpreted. |
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10 Jun 09 - 11:12 AM (#2653175) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Tug the Cox 'NO platform for racists and fascists' doesn't mean that they can't organise or say what they want.....and others are free to counteract them, shout them down or whatever,...thats a matter of tactical preferences. It means not affording them a platform, i.e inviting them on yo your own or others'platforms, and campaigning to stop public institutions offering platforms to those who use them to intimidate and harrass part of the community. There are many things that are legal, but are wrong. legislation always falls behind shifts in public opinion and tolearance. Remeber Cable Street. |
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10 Jun 09 - 11:16 AM (#2653179) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "So you think the protesters might have over-egged it a bit? " eggsackly! -Tommy Handley, ITMA wonder who was egging them on, and then egging them off? "I prefer them in the light of day where their bigotry is easily seen." one more time....... "The British National Party would probably make it into a parliament elected by proportional representation, too. It would shine a torch into the dirty little corner where the BNP defecate on our democracy, and that would be much more powerful than duffing them up in the street — which I'm also in favour of." - Billy Bragg in an interview with The Guardian, 2004 |
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10 Jun 09 - 11:18 AM (#2653180) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Big Mick Folkandroots, how did you figure it out? Do you believe that most others are not as capable as you of figuring it out? I ask this not to be argumentative, but to make a point. As to your point about the real agenda vs. What is being put out for public debate, that is known as shifting the premise, as well as having a hidden agenda. Of course they will do that. It is the only way that people with vile agendas can appeal to the great middle. It is our job to expose that, and have enough respect for the intelligence of average folks to get it. |
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10 Jun 09 - 11:24 AM (#2653189) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Banjiman You might have seen this but as far as I understand it this is properly researched at Lancaster University: "On a party-by-party basis, the average (childhood) IQ scores for 2001 voters were: Green - 108.3 Liberal Democrat - 108.2 Conservative - 103.7 Labour – 103 Plaid Cymru - 102.5 Scottish National - 102.2 UK Independence - 101.1 British National - 98.4 Did not vote/None of the above - 99.7" My point is you're not dealing with "average" folks.......... Paul |
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10 Jun 09 - 11:26 AM (#2653192) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick Anyone who saw Nick Griffin being interviewed on Sky news will have seen one sad sick sorry bigoted son of a bitch being tied up in knots by one not overly penetrating interviewer. When the guy asked him about the ethnic qualification of BNP membership, Griffin had no answer. When he was asked why the BNP wouldn't allow the building of mosques in this country, he made a complete fool of himself. When he was asked about repatriation and the rights of British born 'ethnic' peoples he could not give a consistent answer. That is the way to fight fascism. Show the illogicality of their so called policies. Show the socio/economic/ecological disaster which would result if this bunch of plonkers ever got into power. Show anyone who thinks otherwise what the logical outcome of a BNP government would mean in terms of their personal freedom. Demonstrate against them. March against them. Leaflet against them. Barrack their street meetings and picket their private gatherings. In short,exhaust all reasonable avenues of protest. But throwing eggs is just plain stupid. It is counterproductive, and it is about what one would expect from the tattooed skinheads which the BNP seems designed to attract. |
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10 Jun 09 - 11:30 AM (#2653195) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "I gather that someone variously calling himself "Richard Bridge" or "Hoff Bridge" is posting messages of support for the BNP at digg and sending abusive messages to members of the "folk against fascism" facebook group. "Hoff" is short for "Hoffmeister". There are only a very few places where I have used or been referred to by both names - and the 'cat is one of them. But "Hoff Bridge" isn't me. You may want to keep a wary eye on Daily Mail Reader - I suspect that he or his cronies are the guilty parties." How dreadfully unpleasant. |
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10 Jun 09 - 11:33 AM (#2653196) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: George Papavgeris C |
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10 Jun 09 - 11:39 AM (#2653201) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "But throwing eggs is just plain stupid. It is counterproductive" a waste of eggs as well! |
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10 Jun 09 - 11:40 AM (#2653202) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Kampervan T.t.C., I was being neither smug nor patronising and I apologise if that's how it came across. I shouldn't have started my posting with the word 'sorry'. You have your opinion and I have mine. Whilst I agree with you about the potentially appalling efffects of the BNP obtaining any form of power, I disagree with you about preventing them from being able to organise or speak. I have sufficient faith in the intelligence and commonsense of the majority of the British public to believe that they would never vote these Fascists into power. Their appeal will only ever be to a minority. |
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10 Jun 09 - 12:12 PM (#2653219) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: greg stephens Now, call me naive, but wouldn't it be a good thing at grass-roots level if folk clubs and festivals were a little more welcoming to people playing/singing the traditional folk music of a more diverse range of cultures? I have spent various chunks of my life recording the music of various immigrant/refugee/asylum seeker people in this country, because I love folk music basically. To put the matter bluntly, this is not an area in which many English folkies take an interest. I think a practical way for folkies to express their anti-racism would be to be a little bit more inclusive at the level of the organisationm of their own venues. The politics is the personal. |
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10 Jun 09 - 12:15 PM (#2653224) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Big Mick Paul Banjiman, with respect, your post is very troubling. I have known many people of average or even below average "IQ" who are great contributors to society. Conversely, Adolph Hitler had an IQ higher than Al Gore's. It seems to me that you are implying something that is very troubling. |
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10 Jun 09 - 12:16 PM (#2653225) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,ifor I am delighted at the formation of Folk Against Fascism. And I must say that I was also very cheered to see the odious Nick Griffin and his nazi mate getting their comeuppance yesterday outside Parliament. They did not look like steely jawed members of the master race as they fled in panic to their waiting car.Well done to the Unite Against Fascism supporters for confronting those vile fascists and no platform for nazis! ifor |
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10 Jun 09 - 12:21 PM (#2653235) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "To put the matter bluntly, this is not an area in which many English folkies take an interest" Speak for yourself, and maybe, just maybe, it's time for some people to take off the blinkers and have a look around!! A good start would be to join the Folk Against Fascism facebook group. and Folk Against Fascism not being inclusive..Oh come on...yeesh!! |
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10 Jun 09 - 12:24 PM (#2653239) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: MartinRyan My point is you're not dealing with "average" folks.......... You talking about the Greens? They're the furthest from the average in the set you quote! The (mis)use of IQ data in this way is ironic in view of the fact that such measures have long been criticised for having racist overtones. Regards p.s. More seriously, of course, a little knowledge of the Normal Distribution wouldn't go amiss. |
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10 Jun 09 - 12:30 PM (#2653246) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: greg stephens Riflerman: you said "speak for yourself" implying I am not interested in cultural diversity in traditional music. I think if you look at my post, you will see that it is a main, indeed an obesssional interest of mine. I was pointing out that it is not an interest shared by many folk club organisers, in my experience. |
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10 Jun 09 - 12:31 PM (#2653249) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Banjiman Big Mick, I'm implying nothing, merely posting the outcome of what I assume is validated research. Your suggestion was not to insult the intelligence of average folks..... I was merely posting a clue as to where the BNP leadership aim their messages. Please don't look for "isms" where they don't exist. As an ex mental health nurse I am fully aware of the value that all sorts of apparently "challenged" & "different" people can bring to society. I don't think there was anything in my post above that questioned anyone's contribution to society. For avoidance of doubt I'm not a Green or Lib Dem voter so claim no great I.Q. for myself. Paul |
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10 Jun 09 - 12:37 PM (#2653252) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) For anyone interested (I don't think it's been posted here yet?), here's a link to the FaF MySpace page |
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10 Jun 09 - 12:38 PM (#2653253) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Personally, I'm not interested in much non-English folk song (apart from the occasional Scottish song and the very occasional Irish or American song - and I do do some contemporary stuff too) not least because if my ability to understand the lyrics is diminished by language matters much of the song is not truly available to me, and also because I deeply regret the lack of interest in traditional English song, but on the occasions that I have seen African or Asian or "influenced by" players in folk song sessions, they have always been very warmly welcomed. |
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10 Jun 09 - 12:44 PM (#2653256) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick Greg Stephens. "Now, call me naive, but wouldn't it be a good thing at grass-roots level if folk clubs and festivals were a little more welcoming to people playing/singing the traditional folk music of a more diverse range of cultures?" By God, you could sing that if you had an air to it. I don't think the folk revival is quite as precious these days as it once was. But when I got into ethnic music in the early '70s, hardly anybody I knew was even remotely interested. It wasn't that they didn't enjoy listening to the stuff, it wasn't British and the folk revival was about celebrating British folk music. I wonder how many seeds those people sewed in the minds of future BNP leaders. |
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10 Jun 09 - 12:45 PM (#2653257) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) G. Stephens: "I was pointing out that it is not an interest shared by many folk club organisers, in my experience." The implications of this comment in relation to the core issues of this thread, remind me so much of the charming (and equally stubborn) innocence of The Shire concerning the dangers of Mordor, prior to the Shire's scourging by Saruman. |
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10 Jun 09 - 12:57 PM (#2653267) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: greg stephens (Half of my last message went missing in the ether. What I actually said was) Rifleman: you said "speak for yourself" implying I am not interested in cultural diversity in traditional music. I think if you look at my post, you will see that it is a main, indeed an obsessional interest of mine. I was pointing out that it is not an interest shared by many folk club organisers, in my experience. I think it would make a great statement if places where folkies gather(eg the middle bar at the Anchor in Sidmouth) were a little bit more ethnically integrated, on occasion. Then BNP singingers turning up to infiltrate would get the point. In my own experience, wonderful evenings can happen if white liberal middle-class folkies invite Zimbabwean singers or Kurdish fiddlers to come down the pub and swap songs. I think this a practical and music-orientated way to make a political point and have a thoroughly good time while doing so. |
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10 Jun 09 - 01:10 PM (#2653276) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) I'd make a broad guess that JC & FaF would promote such notions likewise in any campaign stratagies Greg. Oureach of sucj kind,would be especially applicable with immigrant folk musics. Most of whom, ironically, seem to do a rather better job of maintaining their cultural traditions within Britian, than the English in particular have been themselves. |
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10 Jun 09 - 01:17 PM (#2653283) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,lox "The problem perhaps with such debates is what you could be debating isnt what they actually think nor stand for but a very much watered down (for public consumption) version of this, the holocaust denial, enforced sterilisation the more dangerous racist agenda will be kept underwraps." I absolutely agree that this could happen ... if the anti fascist approach is to respond to the BNP's initiative. On the other hand, if the Anti Fascist groups take the initiative and constantly ask these questions and demand evidence for the BNP's claims then that ensures that the right issues are kept in the spotlight. The debate is not engaged in to be won in the eyes of its participants, but in the eyes of its observers. Much as a prosecuting Lawyer does not argue to convince a defendant that he is wrong, but to convince a jury. The Jury here is the public. If the BNP are given opportunities over and over again to claim that anti fascists are undemocratic trouble makers it will seriously damage their campaign in the eyes of the majority of people watching from outside; the jury. The anti fascist groups need to raise awareness of who the BNP really are and get the public interested. Newspapers sell to the public, and they will print what they think will sell. If the public are baying for answers at the BNP's heels the press will bay with them. there is absolutely no room for 'passive' resistance. Resistance to the BNP must be proactive and pre-emptive. It must also be effective - and shouting abuse or trying to ban them will not work, es[ecially now that they have equal political rights to all the other elected parties. The effective response is to put them on the defensive. Ask the difficult questions politely and clearly so they can be heard and understood with no ambiguity in a room full of hecklers. Ask politely and clearly for evidence of their claims, stressing that without it you will be unable to verify them Keep it simple, keep it calm and kick them off the moral highground. Expose them for who they are. learn their arguments - they all say the same thing - and you won't be rattled by their rhetoric. Stick to the point - don't be distracted by attempts to change the subject. Know where the exits are!! |
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10 Jun 09 - 01:23 PM (#2653287) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: greg stephens Crow Sister: I am sure you are right about strategies and so on, they are, or soon will be,in place. But things like "strategies", in my experience, often just lead to big concerts with self-congratulatory line-ups, statements to the press, grant applications etc etc. All very well. But I was proposing something that individuals should do, street by street, pub by pub, club by club, festival by festival. You know, each person sweeps outside the house, the street will be clean. Don't wait for the council to send a team with a lorry. |
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10 Jun 09 - 01:36 PM (#2653295) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) "I was proposing something that individuals should do, street by street, pub by pub, club by club, festival by festival." Sure Greg, I follow you. Though in relation to the idea of promoting such 'strategies' of outreach on a collective ground floor level, considering the general low level of current initiative in such undertakings (of which you speak), broader awareness raising arguably has to come before individual clubs, festivals etc. actually begin initiating such action by themselves. I think awareness raising, including adopting approaches of the very same kind as you are describing, is indeed currently the prime purpose of FaF, thus I suspect we are essentially agreeing? That all sounded far more complicated than it needed to ;-) |
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10 Jun 09 - 02:58 PM (#2653356) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Andy Jackson Well said Lox : "The debate is not engaged in to be won in the eyes of its participants, but in the eyes of its observers. Much as a prosecuting Lawyer does not argue to convince a defendant that he is wrong, but to convince a jury. The Jury here is the public." Much as I laughed at the egg throwing, it does seem more use in the end to allow the public at large to hear the rantings of these evil people. Only then will the "jury" be able to judge. |
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10 Jun 09 - 03:12 PM (#2653368) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: treewind Joan said there would be a web site. Any news of this yet? Anahata |
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10 Jun 09 - 03:28 PM (#2653377) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer Well, we have a domain, and I understand that the website is under construction as we speak. These things take a bit of time! But it's on its way, I promise. I'll post news as soon as there is some. |
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10 Jun 09 - 03:31 PM (#2653379) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) Riflerman: you said "speak for yourself" implying I am not interested in cultural diversity in traditional music... I was thinking anyhting do grandiose and pompous. All I WAS thinking about was actually "maybe, just maybe, it's time for some people to take off the blinkers and have a look around!! A good start would be to join the Folk Against Fascism facebook group" Did I mention "cultural diversity in traditional music" Nope! |
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10 Jun 09 - 03:36 PM (#2653384) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TheSnail Crow Sister I think awareness raising, including adopting approaches of the very same kind as you are describing, is indeed currently the prime purpose of FaF Actually, I don't think it is. I don't think they set out to instruct people on what sort of music they should play or promote. From the Facebook group - This group is being created to take a stand against the appropriation of folk culture by the BNP. They want to take our music. We will not let them. The message I take is that we should play "our" music for the love of the music without fear of being accused of being right wing little Englanders. If we move away from it, we are just handing it over to the BNP without a fight. Bryan Creer |
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10 Jun 09 - 03:56 PM (#2653402) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: treewind I suggest anyone here with a web site should say something about this. I've added to mine. This is not meant to be gratuitous self-promotion (I expect most of you know what we do anyway), but as an example of a way to help publicise FAF: www.treewind.co.uk/mha Comments for further improvement would be welcome. I didn't link to the BNP's own site - not sure if that's wise or not. Anahata |
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10 Jun 09 - 04:02 PM (#2653407) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer Anahata, that's absolutely brilliant. |
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10 Jun 09 - 04:08 PM (#2653412) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) I provided links to both the myspace and facebook sites on a couple of my websites, that was done yesterday. |
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10 Jun 09 - 04:38 PM (#2653440) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peter the Squeezer I'm not into either myspace or facebook, but this has my wholehearted support. Music, nor any other art form should NEVER be allowed to be used as a platform for the kind of evil distortions put about by filth like the BNP. I look forward to the website coming on line. |
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10 Jun 09 - 04:54 PM (#2653454) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Surreysinger >These things take a bit of time! LOL! 48 hours ... I come back from work to find that the FB group is now over 1000 strong in terms of membership. I call that rather impressive. |
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10 Jun 09 - 05:00 PM (#2653463) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Anne Lister The "cultural diversity" argument is a toughie. Trouble is, our own culture (morris dancing, folk dancing, singing folk songs)has been so much the butt of stupid media comments over the years and we have become so afraid of expressing pride in our own country that this is precisely where the BNP and other fascist groups think of taking a stand. I want the opportunity to stand up proudly for England (as well as Wales, Scotland and Ireland) without anyone assuming I'm a jingoistic moron. And I've written songs about that and if I found the BNP had attempted to take them on board I would instantly find ways and means to take legal action to stop them. At WOMEX last year I was appalled to find that the majority of "world music" from the UK sounded like music from other cultures, (because it was - sometimes from people whose heritage was from other cultures but sometimes from musicians who clearly wanted to be from elsewhere)and that there was very little recognition that the UK has its own indigenous cultures. Note the plural. I think everyone should be proud of their own heritage and background, and that includes us. I don't feel the need to include stories from other cultures when I'm storytelling, especially when the majority of children in our schools don't get exposed to the local heritage at any stage - because we're all trying so hard to be "multicultural" and avoid bias. So I'm firmly with Folk Against Fascism, very firmly against the BNP and all it stands for (not mad keen on UKIP either, and have never managed to be a Tory) and I don't see a conflict of interests if I stick with performing and studying stories, music, dance and song from these islands. Doesn't make me racist to want to promote my own cultural heritage. |
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10 Jun 09 - 05:48 PM (#2653489) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Dave Sutherland Greg, Have you taken a look at the line ups for various Off The Tracks Festivals, Castle Donington, Derbyshire over the years? |
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10 Jun 09 - 06:10 PM (#2653508) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Stringsinger My instinct is that the egg throwing was a set-up. During demonstrations of the Vietnam War in the US there were right-wing political operatives acting as rabble-rousers to incite violence. A little history for some folkies here. The Left-wing movement of the US championed the folk music collecting, archiving and the development of folklorists and folk song collectors. Pete Seeger spearheaded an approach to folk music which was ultimately the foundation for the commercial folk music revival in the US and abroad as well. Some would call that a political act. Although it involved some politics, it was more of a movement like what is being promoted here. Actually, politics can't be separated from the arts any more than it can from any other expression or endeavor in life. Even the idea of anti-politics is a political statement. The BNP is a dangerous right-wing organization that threatens real democracy. Like the Operation Rescue movement in the US it could be a platform for violence. So far, it may not have crossed the line but it could easily become a so-called "terrorist" platform. Folk Singer Against Fascism has venerable historical roots here in the US. We had People's Songs, Broadside Magazine, and People's Artists in New York. Paul Robeson was a champion of the political expression of anti-Fascism through song. Woody Guthrie was a songwriter who spent his life writing songs about anti-Fascism. Josh White, Leadbelly, Big Bill Broonzy and Richard Dyer-Benett supported left-wing causes in the early days to speak out against anti-Fascism. There is a strong connection with anti-Fascism in the roots of American folk music which was nurtured by the Left-wing in the Thirties and Forties and onward. Like Operation Rescue, he BNP might be metaphorically in danger of "yelling fire in a crowded theater" which is an infringement of free speech. More power to the FAF. Frank Hamilton |
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10 Jun 09 - 06:27 PM (#2653526) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Folknacious More power to the FAF. And FAFing about could gain a whole new respectability! |
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10 Jun 09 - 06:57 PM (#2653556) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi I look forward to visiting the Folk Against Fascism website. And I hope that that website will include educational essays such as Frank Hamilton's (Stringsinger's) 10 Jun 09 - 06:10 PM post. Hopefully, readers' comments could be posted in response to an essay, similar to what is done on a number of blogs such as this one. Here's another suggestion for the content of the FaF website-like that above linked blog, comments/essays/articles, it could have been posted elsewhere before being posted on the FaF website (or the FaF blog) or be cross posted on the FaF site and another site at the same time. |
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10 Jun 09 - 07:00 PM (#2653557) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Dave the Gnome Hey George - When did you become Yorgos? Whatcher mean- You always was? I have enough problems with your surname. How come you can't have a good English name like Polakow or Mistry or Li or Abedoye or... :-P On a more serious note, I do agree with Greg. I have tried my best to get a good mix at Swinton but only been sucessful with Tuup (Ghania), Orleck Dance Troup (Ukraine), Boat Band (Stoke) and some Greek bloke who sings wonderful songs, about anything and everything, in English:-) The trouble I find though is the difficulty getting good world music at the same sort of deal we do for everyone - Ie - The door and raffle with the occasional subsidy from meagre club funds. I know I have talked to Greg about this before and the trouble is that I realy do not know how to get the music deriving from other cultures into our club. I do hope and pray that eventualy we will get floor singers and 'jobbing' musicians from other traditions in our mix. As has happened in other aspects of life, food being the prime example, surely we will eventualy get all cultures represented in the 'folk scene' (whatever that is). Won't we? After all, I genuinely believe that there is a general acceptance of other cultures to our shores, with the primary execption of those of the BNP persuasion. It is what makes English culture so strange! As to freedom of speech. Yes, well. As well as the aforementioned crying of fire in a crowded place we should also remember that freedom cannot and should not cross the laws of the land. If that freedom of speech is inciting racial hatred it is already illegal. Anyone who cannot see the difference between freedom of speech and restriction of crime deserves all they get. Anyway, off to join FaF right now. DeG |
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10 Jun 09 - 07:02 PM (#2653561) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi And hopefully, there will be a Preview feature for comments-not that I would use it. LOL Here's the corrected sentence from my post before this one: "...like that above linked blog, [the policy of that site could be that] comments/essays/articles could have been posted elsewhere before being posted on the FaF website (or the FaF blog) or be cross posted on the FaF site and another site at the same time." |
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10 Jun 09 - 07:05 PM (#2653564) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: greg stephens I find it a little sad that the minute I started talking about people being a little more welcoming to a spot of cultural diversity,we get comeback from people saying "What's wrong with sticking up for Brit folk?".As if they were opposites.Actually, the two are perfectly compatible. I referred to my own work in recording refugee/asylum seeker music in England. I don't expect many people to be familiar with what I do, but I can assure anyone that I have also been researching, publishing, promulgating,recording, teaching, performing and generally enthusing over indigenous local English music with considerable vigour since the 60's.And if you don't know my own music, you are probably familiar with people who have learnt tunes and songs off me. I love folk music. That's what I live and breathe. |
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10 Jun 09 - 07:14 PM (#2653568) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Tug the Cox Thank yopu Frank Hamilton. |
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10 Jun 09 - 07:47 PM (#2653596) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: romany man a simple question the old "what is fascism" i could say i daily face racist remarks cos of me birth race,is that fascism?, I still cant find anywhere to graze my horses with tempory stables? yet people i share the present field with, (non gypsies) were granted grazing rights localy? is that fascism? when i go to my local shop, the staff wander about behind me but not others, is that it, yet how many of you have said the old, bloody pikey comment or bloody gypsies, how many of you have objected to sites being opened for us, perhaps thats it, how many of you would jump to defend your local romanies ? perhaps thats it, so i ask how many of you non romanies know the difference between romanies and non romanies, thats just one part. Who decides what is patriotic and what is fascist, anyone who can deny the holocaust is off thier bloody head,( but then so am i, and i got a certificate) how long will it be before the patriots are classed as fascists, sadly its a thin line in my opinion, what next folk against commies, or against rock and roll , im not being flipant but what will folk against anything achieve if the general populace in general is against fascism , a much greater number, cant stop it what can we do. |
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10 Jun 09 - 07:48 PM (#2653597) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Tyke All You Fascists I'm gonna tell you fascists You may be surprised The people in this world Are getting organized You're bound to lose You fascists bound to lose Race hatred cannot stop us This one thing we know Your poll tax and Jim Crow And greed has got to go You're bound to lose You fascists bound to lose. All of you fascists bound to lose: I said, all of you fascists bound to lose: Yes sir, all of you fascists bound to lose: You're bound to lose! You fascists: Bound to lose! People of every color Marching side to side Marching 'cross these fields Where a million fascists dies You're bound to lose You fascists bound to lose! I'm going into this battle And take my union gun We'll end this world of slavery Before this battle's won You're bound to lose You fascists bound to lose! Woody Guthrie |
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10 Jun 09 - 08:07 PM (#2653607) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Tug the Cox Romany man, all those incidents were cerainly prejudiced, probably racist, they may or may not have been fascist. fascism is a political belief in having absolute power to order society as the fascists think fit. Which is normally to do with state control ( certainly not right wing, economically)elimination of other voices, and extermination of those who don't contribute. The word facism comes from the fasces, a bundle of twigs and an axe which was the symbol of power, including punishment and death, of the Roman magistrtates. facism is not necessarily racist, in monocultures it finds expresion in highlighting some other ( any other) difference. If we were all of the same race, fascists would find other distinctions. Why? because inorder to gain absolute power they must invent an 'other' who is to be feared, whoo must be guarded against, which means the guardians must have full power. ( think Mc Carthy in the 50's and Bush's 'War on terror) This means, in the emergency state, civil liberties must be suspended, never to return. Facism is an attack on us all, not just the Jews, blacks, communists, islamists who are taking the brunt at any one time. Wishing you well , Romany Man, just don't call me Gorgoi. |
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10 Jun 09 - 08:09 PM (#2653608) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy romany man, i have no problem at all with anyone who camps somewhere they shouldn't be as long as they have done no damage to the site and clean up after themselves. i am sure that you have often been tarred by the same brush as new age travellers most groups of whom i have ever met or seen i have dispised as troublemakwers, thieves and litterers, who make no effort to look after the site they are on or respect the locals wherever they find themselves. we have a batteredvan and a poorly second hand caravan and we can arrord the caravan club here in the u.k, so why can't travellers who have big posh vans and posh 4x4 that pull them. whenever we have stayed off site we have always made sure we spoke to the locals with respect and left no trace that we were ever there,as i am sure you do. sorry for ranting at you when i know that it is not the romanys' fault but i get very angry at just the mention of the new age types. typical example,, stainsby folk festival, it is only on a small feild and there are bins everywhere. in the mornings you will see o laod of glass bottles along with the metal lids right beside the bins....this is a cow field where the cows have been know to get the bottle tops stuck in their feet, very environmentlyfrindly i am sure. oops i did it again i shall go before i get shot.. lol take care romany man and be careful it is a nasty world we live in x x |
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10 Jun 09 - 09:38 PM (#2653666) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TheSnail greg stephens I think a practical way for folkies to express their anti-racism would be to be a little bit more inclusive at the level of the organisationm of their own venues. I'm sorry, Greg, but, speaking for myself, the prime motivation for being involved in a folk club is the music. The music for which I have a particular fondness is the traditional music of the British Isles with a preference for the folk music of England. This is an aesthetic/artistic statement, not a political one. I am more than happy to share my enthusiasm with anyone and everyone, regardless of race, colour or creed. I do what I can to oppose racism to the point that I have been concerned for my own physical well-being (look through my Mudcat postings) but that is not why I commit my time to helping to run a folk club. Are you seriously suggesting that folk club organisers should promote music that they don't find interesting just to cock a snook at the BNP? Bryan Creer |
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10 Jun 09 - 09:48 PM (#2653670) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace I am amazed at the response FAF has received in so brief a time. I have been guilty of getting into some fights with people from the trad folk scene in England. My apologies. Many people have joined ('become friends' on the Myspace site that FAF has). I wish to applaud people like Bryan, Ruth A and George P (who it seems wishes to be called yoghurt for some strange reason) and that takes courage. I posted the following on my own MySpace page: "To my friends on Myspace: There is a very important Myspace site I hope you will consider joining. Its name is Folk Against Fascism In the UK, there is a very dangerous group of people called the British Nationalist Party. They sleep with the likes of the KKK, Aryan Nations and other hate groups. Please consider giving them your support. The garbage hasn't gone away: it's still out there, and now it's getting elected based on lies, distortions of truth and intimidation. WE are stronger than they are--together. Please, let's show them that. Bruce" I hope it helps. I have always admired people with guts, and you folks have plenty of that. |
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10 Jun 09 - 10:00 PM (#2653675) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: George Papavgeris Irene (Greek for 'peace'), my tub runneth over. I'll raise a pint to you (a drinking Yorgo). Seriously, thanks and well done. My name will be reinstated in a few days, after the kerfuffle over MBSGeorge has died down. |
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10 Jun 09 - 11:20 PM (#2653703) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ian Fyvie "....fascism is not necessarily racist, in monocultures it finds expresion in highlighting some other ( any other) difference. "(Tug the Cox) Fascism is "Dictatorsh[p of the Capitalists" according to GB Shaw (1922). Put these two quotes together and a few more things emerge. Fascism is a phenomenon of Capitalism - not something on its own. It enables Capitalism to operate without the 'trappings' of Democracy, Rights at Work, the Right to Strike, Rights to Protest - things that were RELUCTANTLY permitted to citizens and workers progressively over 150 or so years. And we all know Western Capitalism is in deep trouble right now. Though the scapegoats picked on by a given Fascist movement may be racian ones, they may not be and one should be particularly aware that a Fascist partiy of today may spotlight its multi ethnic, and socially Liberal spectrum of supporters. |
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10 Jun 09 - 11:24 PM (#2653706) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi At this time Folk Against Fascism's Facebook page has 1,116 friends while the Folk Against Fascism MySpace page has 168 friends. This may reflect the fact that Facebook is more popular than MySpace, at least according to this article: Facebook Overtakes MySpace as Most Popular Social Networking Site BY LEE BAINS — JAN 27TH 2009 AT 3:35PM "Undergoing a growth spurt of 127-percent over the course of 2008, Facebook finally overtook social networking giant MySpace by drawing 222 million users to Facebook.com in December. Facebook's first month to beat out MySpace was last April. Not limited to the social networking arena, Facebook's success is impressive even in the most general category; Facebook.com registered as the Internet's seventh most popular destination in December, trailing only Web giants Google, Microsoft, Yahoo, AOL, Wikipedia and eBay." http://www.switched.com/2009/01/27/facebook-overtakes-myspace-as-most-popular-social-networking-sit/ ** It should be noted that the Folk Against Fascism (FaF) Facebook page was launched one day before the FaF MySpace page. Maybe one of the reason why so many more folks signed on to the Facebook page rather than the MySpace page is that some people have both a Facebook and a MySpace page. Perhaps their reasoning is that if they sign up with one of these FaF pages, they don't have to sign up for the other. Or maybe the truth of the matter is that there really are more folk social networking though Facebook than through MySpace. Personally, I like the aesthetics at MySpace better (I'm referring to the color backgrounds, the music sound clips, and the different types of friend photos -the logos, the moving pictures and more). Actually, I don't really use my MySpace page for social networking. MySpace seems to me to be a modern version of the custom of exchanging business cards. I launched my MySpace page to promote my website and to feature some creative videos of children that I find on YouTube. Because I like learning about different types of music and cultures, I purposely search for interesting friends throughout the world. And I admit that I often send friend invites to people and groups mostly based on their colorful, eye catching member photos. I enjoy visiting those friends pages, checking out their music, and learning about their cultures. MySpace is a cultural experience for me. This has little to do with the topic of the thread except to say that I decided not to think of there being any competition between the number of people who sign up as friends with FaF Facebook and FaF MySpace. Maybe that's because if there were a contest, Facebook would win which means "my side" would lose. But I know that's not the point. It's just that this subject is so heavy duty, that my spirit wants to find some way to lighten up. And this was one way I thought about doing so-until I saw that MySpace was bound to lose. Now I'm pushing the "We're all in this together" slogan. That's why-with all due apologies to Rodney King-I ask "Can Facebook friends and Myspace friends get along?" And I answer "When it comes to Folks Against Fascism-Absolutely!" ;o) |
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11 Jun 09 - 12:13 AM (#2653728) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace I am humbled by your remark, Yorgos. Best wishes to you. Irene (I don't mind the name, but I ain't getting the operation to go with it.) |
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11 Jun 09 - 01:32 AM (#2653752) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Dave the Gnome The music for which I have a particular fondness is the traditional music of the British Isles with a preference for the folk music of England. I agree entirely, Bryan, I have a particular fondness for English and Scottish Dance music in particular but would pose this question. When did it become English or Scottish and what makes it so? When I listen to some of the dance tunes are there distinct east European influences or did English music influence that of Romania or Hungary? Some of the tunes of the Scottish small pipes sound earily like those played by Bretons in France. Now we have influences from further east and west in pop, classical and folk so is what I am listening to really English anyway? I would give an overwhelming YES - Just as Chicken Tika Masala, French wines and, unfortunately, MacDonalds burgers are part of English cuisine. Anyroads - back to the point. As club organisers we should not be just promoting music that we find interesting, but that that would interest a wider audience maybe? I don't think Greg is asking us to book acts just to cock a snook. But if we can help derail the BNP while booking acts representing ALL cultures of these isles then it is an added bonus:-) Cheers DeG |
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11 Jun 09 - 03:20 AM (#2653767) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) "Actually, I don't think it is. I don't think they set out to instruct people on what sort of music they should play or promote." Fair enough Snail, rereading my posts, I was jumping the gun somewhat there. Possibly based on thoughts drawn from prior threads on surrounding issues, and the fact that JC has a foot in a few camps which, I would guess, ideally means that there doesn't have to be any either/or approaches. For my own part, I'd guess that all options of awareness raising and encouraging inclusivity are possibilities. At least I would hope so. |
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11 Jun 09 - 04:04 AM (#2653783) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer Personally, I don't think anyone should book anyhting except really good music. Take this lot - they make really good music: Dogan and the Deerhunters |
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11 Jun 09 - 04:15 AM (#2653786) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi I don't think Greg is asking us to book acts just to cock a snook. -David el Gnomo "Cock a snook?" Does that mean what I think it means? Never mind. I don't really need to know. But on second thought...?? |
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11 Jun 09 - 04:43 AM (#2653792) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: MartinRyan Azizi To cock a snook means to show derision. Origin debatable! Regards |
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11 Jun 09 - 04:44 AM (#2653794) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull plenty of people are joining, there were 6 members when i joined, now theres over 1000! |
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11 Jun 09 - 04:48 AM (#2653799) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi On a serious note, it occurs to me that it's usually acceptable for people who know each other well to engage in light hearted play on words about the other person's non-standard name and other cultural things (such as some posts on this thread that Bruce [Peace] and David el Gnomo 's wrote that refer to George [Yorgos Papavgeris]'s name.* But that same play on words would likely not be acceptable among people who don't know each other well. I mention this because I think that one of the goals of the Folk Against Fascism website, Facebook page, and MySpace page would be to foster greater understanding among people of different backgrounds. Which doesn't mean that I think there should be a "social etiquette among people of different backgrounds" page. But some features that help populations of people know each other better may do a lot to reduce the pull of fascism. * I mentioned Bruce's name "Peace" because people who might visit this thread from Internet search engines might not know who the heck "Bruce" is. And I'm presuming that George didn't take any offense to Bruce's and Dave's remarks because I (kinda) know them through their postings on Mudcat. t also seems to me that George's 10 Jun 09 - 10:00 PM shows that he accepted these play on words about his name in the spirit that they were given. However, the point I'm trying to make is that people who don't know each other can take offense and be offensive when joking about different personal names and about words from other languages. Also I want to say that I think that Bruce's 11 Jun 09 - 12:13 AM comment and David el Gnomo 's 10 Jun 09 - 07:00 PM and any comment about George's name and the Greek word for "Peace" (Irene) were probably posted to add some lightheartedness to a very serious thread as was the intent of my 11 Jun 09 - 04:15 AM post). I think these serious, emotionally gut wrenching discussions need a careful, sensitive light touch some times- or speaking for myself-I know that I need a careful, light touch sometime when I read these "heavy duty" threads. (Why did that phrasing about careful, sensitive touch cause my mind to go someplace else? Never mind that.) :o) Moving right along, thanks Bruce, and George, and Dave and any other play on word-er that i failed to mention. Ms. Azizi |
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11 Jun 09 - 04:51 AM (#2653800) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi Thanks, MartinRyan. That meaning of "To cock a snook" is somewhat disappointing. But it is what it is. ;o) |
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11 Jun 09 - 05:17 AM (#2653805) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TheSnail I have a particular fondness Particuular, not exclusive. My own repertoire includes Irish, Scottish, French, Scandinavian and Italian tunes; because I like them. This is an aesthetic/artistic statement, not a political one. OK? Thanks for the link Ruth. Dogan has played at the club several times in Too Many Strings and as a duo with Matt Quinn. He is on record as saying something like "I think British traditional music is wonderful and I want everybody to know about it. If it takes a Turk to tell them, so be it." Bryan Creer |
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11 Jun 09 - 05:22 AM (#2653806) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) The issues ultimately raised by this thread are going to be numerous, but in forging any approaches to begin to attempt to counter what has been ocurring regards the appropriation of British folk music and customs, I think it might be worthwhile determining what attracts groups like the BNP to British Folk. Some of these issues have come up on other threads, and it might be worthwhile taking a fresh more integrated look at some of those issues, in relation to this thread? For example: One thing that strikes me from memory, was a story (I can't recall the poster) discussing a bunch of skinheads at a folk gathering rather enthusiastically singing songs containing the 'N' word. Another thing that strikes me, is the possible parallels with Nazi appropriation of German folk music. One wonders to what extent current BNP tactics are knowingly echoing the Nazi example? Or is this simply another example of universal Nationalist political tactics? And a further thing which immediately comes to mind, is of course the somewhat exclusively middle-England nature of attendees of folk clubs. Not a criticism of the British folk scene, merely a reference to prior discussions. I'm sure there are other things which make British folk highly attractive as a tool for nationalist and fascist propaganda, I just wanted to throw open discussion about what they might be? |
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11 Jun 09 - 05:34 AM (#2653807) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer I think the main thing is that they're national. But it's interesting that whereas the National Front, as thugs and bully boys, targeted the national game (so much so that football has still not overcome the racist taint of 20-30 years ago) the new-look BNP, with their softly-softly approach, are targeting something that is much more middle class and Middle England: folk culture. It's all about appropriating these things seen as primarily English, and making them a part of their very narrow and exclusive definition of identity. I would hate to think of folk culture, 30 years from now, suffering under the taint of racism in the way that football still does, because we weren't vigilant enough until it was too late. |
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11 Jun 09 - 05:38 AM (#2653808) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer Before anyone has the eggs at the ready, I should probably qualify one of my statements above: "targeting something that is much more middle class and Middle England: folk culture." should read "targeting something that is PERCEIVED as much more middle class and Middle England: folk culture." Referring to morris, maypole, village greens etc. And this is all about the perceptions of the wider public, not what we as folkies may or may not feel is true. |
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11 Jun 09 - 05:40 AM (#2653809) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Folknacious Maybe it should have been called Folk Against Racism, but that sounds like a schism with Rock Against Racism which would have been silly. The logo they've got based on Woody's guitar ties in very nicely. I don't think it helps to nitpick about definitions. About Facebook v. MySpace. MySpace is a terrific marketing tool, a free place for putting music and biogs etc into the public realm, the floor spots of the web. Facebook is much more used for social networking, and there are lots more people who don't have music to promote than do so naturally it will have more users. Re discussion above about English music, I think it's summed up quite nicely by a quote on the FAF Wall which says "Remember the next time you go and dance to a polka played on a melodeon and hammered dulcimer that NONE of those things came from 'here' originally, they've just been naturalised a bit longer than most . ." |
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11 Jun 09 - 05:59 AM (#2653814) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: theleveller "Before anyone has the eggs at the ready, I should probably qualify one of my statements above: " Phew, you had me reaching for the nearest chicken, there. LOL! |
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11 Jun 09 - 06:03 AM (#2653816) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,lox "But it's interesting that whereas the National Front, as thugs and bully boys, targeted the national game (so much so that football has still not overcome the racist taint of 20-30 years ago) the new-look BNP, with their softly-softly approach, are targeting something that is much more middle class and Middle England: folk culture." Interesting point. Haven't yet decided whether this fact shows that they have been unsuccesful in the country's football gorunds so they are trying elsewhere, in which case it is an indicator that we should feel reassured by it, or whether it suggests genuine infiltration into the middle classes. Lets remember that the number of BNP voters did not increase, so perhaps we can deduce that the footbal stadium campaign has been unsuccesful. Alternatively, now that football stadia have become the preserve of the middle classes and the real fans watch their games in pubs cos they can't afford tickets, maybe the campaign has followed them into the pubs - and is just giving itself a soundtrack and inventing an new found identity with a new found air of respectability ... ... Great to see that when it matters, the overwhelming majority of Brits are disgusted at the idea of Griffin in office. He won't last more than 1 term. |
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11 Jun 09 - 06:06 AM (#2653819) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick "Another thing that strikes me, is the possible parallels with Nazi appropriation of German folk music. One wonders to what extent current BNP tactics are knowingly echoing the Nazi example? Or is this simply another example of universal Nationalist political tactics?" I find the BNP fascination with 'British culture' alarming because they are echoing nazi ideology in a way that even the National Front never did. The nazis believed that national culture was a product of genetic determination, and it was for this reason that they embraced German folklore. to them, it was pure and it was Aryan and, once cleansed of degenerate influences, it was both symbol and affirmation of Aryan superiority. The product of the master race, no less. I think the BNP's assertion of British folklore (and various other symbols of 'Britishness') shows that they are thinking along similar lines. I think they are proposing a Britain purged of all alien influences. I think they are planning a programme of ethnic cleansing, the intensity of which has not been seen since the days of the holocaust. |
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11 Jun 09 - 06:14 AM (#2653828) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Jack Campin Expanding this list outside of Britain, Folk singers sang songs during the civil rights movement in the USA. It might be a good idea to include such a listing on the FaceBook/MySpace pages or at least on the upcoming Folk Against Fascism website. What else can be added to this list? Mikis Theodorakis (and a lot of other Greek musicians) opposing the Greek colonels Victor Jara, Inti-Illimani and a whole bunch of other Chilean musicians opposing Pinochet Zulfu Livaneli, Selda Bagcan, Melike Demirag and a whole bunch of other Turkish folkies opposing fascism around the time of the 1980 coup You'd be hard put to find a country with a significant fascist movement that didn't have folk musicians in the front line fighting it. |
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11 Jun 09 - 06:22 AM (#2653833) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Folknacious - PM Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:40 AM Maybe it should have been called Folk Against Racism, but that sounds like a schism with Rock Against Racism which would have been silly. The logo they've got based on Woody's guitar ties in very nicely. I don't think it helps to nitpick about definitions. About Facebook v. MySpace. MySpace is a terrific marketing tool, a free place for putting music and biogs etc into the public realm, the floor spots of the web. Facebook is much more used for social networking, and there are lots more people who don't have music to promote than do so naturally it will have more users. Re discussion above about English music, I think it's summed up quite nicely by a quote on the FAF Wall which says "Remember the next time you go and dance to a polka played on a melodeon and hammered dulcimer that NONE of those things came from 'here' originally, they've just been naturalised a bit longer than most . ." I agree with this sentiment,however it is not accurate,the English concertina is English,The Hornpipe,Reel and Jig,are generally considered to be from these islands[scotland ,england ireland wales]polkas originated in middle europe[butIrish polkas have evolved to something different.] yes ,correct about Polkas and mazurkas,but not other dances. still the most important thing is not to be concerned about origins ,but to enjoy the dancing. |
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11 Jun 09 - 06:56 AM (#2653848) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Jack Campin I just looked at Anahata's site, that link page is just right. I'd add something very similar to mine, but a question. My involvement is mostly with Scottish music, and I haven't seen any sign of the BNP trying to exploit that. (Near-fascist Scottish organizations like Siol nan Gaidheal have been trying for years and got nowhere in particular - but the BNP would have to take them on before trying to move in on the Scottish folk scene). Anyone know what they're doing up here? |
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11 Jun 09 - 07:36 AM (#2653868) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi >i>I think it might be worthwhile determining what attracts groups like the BNP to British Folk. Some of these issues have come up on other threads, and it might be worthwhile taking a fresh more integrated look at some of those issues, in relation to this thread? -Crow Sister, 11 Jun 09 - 05:22 AM I find your comments to be very interesting, Crow Sister and believe that it is important to know what attracts the BNP to folk. And it seems to me that a corollary question is "Should every thing that is considered to be traditional British culture or which has been grafted onto traditional British culture be supported and efforts made to retain those things? I'm specifically talking about the songs with the "N" word (which certainly wouldn't be publicly sung nowadays in my country, the USA)? But I'm certain that there are other perhaps more controversial customs that could (should?) also be considered in that category of indices of traditional British culture that could be reviewed in this regard. ** I aslo find romany man's 10 Jun 09 - 07:47 PM entire post interesting. But in particular I'd like to to focus on this point he raised "what next folk against commies, or against rock and roll , im not being flipant but what will folk against anything achieve if the general populace in general is against fascism..." (I'm wondering if he meant) "im not being flipant but what will folk against anything achieve if the general populace in general is against fascism) But the point that I want to make is that it seems to me that Folk Against Fascism should be clear on and should clearly articulate what it (we) are in favor of. I think our efforts would be weakened if we are only seen as being against something-and that "something" is a political system that a lot of "folks" (with "folk" here meaning people) can't easily define. Furthermore, it seems to me that we are missing a wider audience and membership/supporters if the "folk" in "Folk Against Fascism" is only narrowly defined as "folk musicians and folk vocalists and folk dancers (such as morris dancers)". To echo what Peace said in one of his posts to this thread, I'm not folk musicians and folk vocalists and folk dancers (such as morris dancers). But I am a folk (a person). I understand that FaF focuses on Britain and the British hate group, the BNP. But I'd like to think that people from outside of Britain with our "own" hate groups and hate crimes have some role in the FaF-and maybe we are sometimes the gadfly that pushes you to widen your focus and consider the wider world of racism/hate/fascism. I guess I should have said that "maybe my role is a gadfly". But gadflies can be lovable sometime. :o) |
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11 Jun 09 - 07:38 AM (#2653869) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Dave Sutherland Ruth/lox, It is quite true that in the seventies the NF sought to recruit members from football supporters since "they would welcome robust young men into their ranks". However it must be stressed that over the ensuing years the football clubs themselves have worked very hard to combat the stigma, especially the violence and racism, which attached its self to the game.Most clubs that I know of have a definite policy against racisim(Kick Out Racism) and any form of racist chanting is punishable by expulsion from the ground and membership revoked. A lot of clubs openly declare this on their tickets. "Alternatively, now that football stadia have become the preserve of the middle classes and the real fans watch their games in pubs cos they can't afford tickets". I saw my team, Nottingham Forest, on television twice last season so I would suggest that since football is not the sole property of the big four Premiership sides that the real fans still go to the grounds (and if being middle class means being continually on the bones of ones arse then that must be my status; I'll remember that when I clock in at the factory in the morning) It was very encouraging to see the anti - BNP leaflets being haded out at our last home match v Southampton. |
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11 Jun 09 - 08:14 AM (#2653882) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Folkiedave Haven't yet decided whether this fact shows that they have been unsuccesful in the country's football gorunds so they are trying elsewhere, in which case it is an indicator that we should feel reassured by it, or whether it suggests genuine infiltration into the middle classes. As a season ticket holder at Sheffield's finest football club (I refer to United of course) I am very aware of the efforts my club has made to discourage racism (especially chanting) and it is now totally unaceptable at Bramall Lane to make references to the colour of a player's skin. So we don't hear it. This didn't arise by accident but by extremely hard work by FURD (Football Unites, Racism Divides). http://www.furd.org/ will show you some of their work. It has been a very successful organisation. |
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11 Jun 09 - 08:26 AM (#2653885) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: treewind Azizi: Yes, of course we're all against fascism, but the reason why the folk music community in particular is upset is because the BNP have been exploiting British Folk music (in particular its "Britishness") as an emblem of nationalism and selling compilations of their recordings to raise funds. Now folk musicians and singers are in danger of being tarred with the same racist brush, so it is very much a fight "against" the BNP because we are under attack. Imagine if you were a singer (maybe you are) and you found your music was being sold to raise funds for a racist organisation... As for "Folk against Fascism" vs. "Folk Against Racism", it's a more alliterative and hence memorable name, and it is relevant to the BNP. For me it's also a plus point that it potentially covers some of the invasions of personal privacy and freedom perpetrated by the existing government, with its talk of ID cards and having all our internet activity monitored. Perhaps we could have called it "folk for freedom" but I don't think anyone would take any notice if we did... Anahata |
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11 Jun 09 - 08:30 AM (#2653886) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Banjiman The whole Kick Racism Out (of football) has been succesful in league football. I can confirm that racist chants etc are also now never heard at Sincil Bank (Lincoln City). I haven't been to an England game for more than 10 years but the last one I was at was scary. Lots of anti-Irish chants. At Lincoln, the 3 of us who turn up are now impeccably behaved. (I always was, it was the other 2). Thought I better make this joke before someone else did. I think the issues were different for football in that it was kicking out people/ behaviours who had already infiltrated the game...... I don't perceive that the BNP has a strong grip of Folk Music yet. It's therefore looking at how to prevent it (or at least put out the ember before the fire catches) rather than kick it out. Might be something we can learn from the football experience though. Paul |
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11 Jun 09 - 08:51 AM (#2653900) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman Fascism ,is[imo] easily defined,it involves IN PRACTICAL TERMS [as it has been practised,by Mussolini and Hitler] the persecution of people because of their race colour and creed,so one of its principles as it has been practised is racism. yes ,this includes Mussolini. Mussolini in his earlier years appeared not be anti semitic,but in his later years changed his policy,and for whatever reasons used racism to maintain himself in power. however, Folk against Racism,might have been a better title,just in case some pedant,comes along and argues that Franco[Fascist]or Duffy[Blueshirt] was not racist. However the situation is further complicated,Franco was supported by other fascist /nazis states.,as he accepted their support,does it not follow that he accepted their racist attitudes? anyway well done,to all the people who have helped set up folk against fascism. |
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11 Jun 09 - 08:52 AM (#2653901) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi Correction- In my 11 Jun 09 - 07:36 AM post I wondered if romany man meant " "im not being flipant but what will folk against anything achieve if the general populace in general is not against fascism". ** Also, I wasn't suggesting that the "Folk Against Fascism" name be "Folk Against Racism". My point was (is) that the group should be clear what we are for. I would assume that some things are core, but that every FaF friend (member) may not agree with other things that are part of British traditional folk culture that other friends (members) list that they are in favor of. |
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11 Jun 09 - 09:14 AM (#2653912) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Folknacious Remember the next time you go and dance to a polka played on a melodeon and hammered dulcimer that NONE of those things came from 'here' originally was answered by the English concertina is English,The Hornpipe,Reel and Jig,are generally considered to be from these islands Well yes, but that's a complete non sequitur! Your point is? |
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11 Jun 09 - 09:16 AM (#2653914) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: MartinRyan "fascism" is now little more than a generalised term of abuse. It's original sense was essentially right-wing, ultra-nationalist, corporatist, authoritarian governance. Unsurprisingly, racism was often part of the package, in practice. (It's not stretching things too much to regard Franco's attitude to the Catalans as essentially racist, BTW). On the other hand, authoritarian left-wing states are just as capable of being racist (complete your own list...). So let's not confuse the two. Regards |
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11 Jun 09 - 09:40 AM (#2653930) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) For myself, I think the term is appropriate, as the issues implied go beyond racism alone. And this from Wiki makes the direct relationship between the BNP & fascism more clear: "The current use of the name British National Party is its fourth appearance in British politics. The original BNP emerged during World War II when a handful of former members of the British Union of Fascists took on the name." |
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11 Jun 09 - 09:44 AM (#2653932) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman my point is:that most ,countrydances/ceilidhs that people dance to in England ,contain all these dances and some of them are from the England Ireland Scotland Wales . secondly,that the origins of the dances should not be important when dancing,people, should be dancing for pleasure. that is why I dont care a toss, when I am dancing a polka [that it comes from middle europe]. but of course it might concern BNP MEMBERS ,presumably they think its ok to dance hornpipes but not polkas,how ridiculous. |
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11 Jun 09 - 10:11 AM (#2653948) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Stringsinger In a Venn Diagram, Fascism and racism can intersect but not always. Any authoritarian governance is probably associated with some form of racism. It doesn't matter what you label it. As I understand the BNP, it is an authoritarian "my way or the highway" group and must as a result maintain a certain prejudice and xenophobia. Fascism is alive and well here in the US. It is not a stated official policy of the government but corporate takeover of our political system is evident. For this reason, ample criticism has to be expressed by Americans who take our Bill of Rights and Constitution seriously. We have to deplore any group that favors a fascistic point of view including the BNP. They should not be morally defended in any way. Free speech is their right as long as it doesn't cross the line. My experience with fascistic right-wing groups is that they invariably cross the line into violence. At this point as far as I'm concerned, this abrogates their right to free speech. Frank |
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11 Jun 09 - 10:28 AM (#2653963) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,ifor If you want to see what a British fascist looked like go to "google images" and type in the name of the founding leader of the British National Party,John Tyndall. You can see him there dressed in full nazi uniform posing in front of a swastika flag while a photograph of Adolph Hitler looks down from above. His successor ,Nick Griffin,can also be seen on google images.He is there in front of a National Front banner wearing his white power Tshirt.He looks more porky these days. When a BNP electioneering squad were out in force in my home town a few weeks ago they were all dressed up in their shiny suits.They really didn't like it when photocopies of Tyndall in his nazi getup were produced. After being " megaphoned " for an hour by anti fascists they obviously sent for reinforcements because a group of boneheads came waddling down the street.One was covered in enormous swastika tattoos including one on top of his shaven head. Scary! He was obviously not used in any of the BNP publicity material. Its not easy but they do have to confronted about their nazi past and their nazi present. ifor |
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11 Jun 09 - 11:12 AM (#2654008) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) Been thinking about this..... ""given some of the people already supporting this, we're not talking pie-in-the-sky - something exciting is going to happen" I'll wait and see how far some people are willing to go with this issue. |
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11 Jun 09 - 11:46 AM (#2654029) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Andy Jackson I have always considered myself "non political" I don't "do" politics, but by God I care about my fellow man. The whole idea of the BNP appalls me and in fact scares me. I particularly dislike the idea of appropriating the music I love and have worked hard for all my adult life. This is why I joined FAF, triggered by the wayward thinking of a previous friend. I hope we get a coherent mission statement organised for the website. Fo my pen'orth it's deeper than Racism and probably deeper than the BNP although they must be the main target for the immediate future. Good luck to FAF and all who Faff around within. Andy |
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11 Jun 09 - 11:56 AM (#2654040) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Neil D Speaking of crossing the line into violence, a long-time racist anti-semite attacked the National Holocaust Museum in Washington D.C. yesterday killing a security guard before being shot himself. Security guards at that museum are trained to be always on high alert because it is one of the most threatened institutions in America, a sad fact indeed. Otherwise he would have killed many more innocents. The MSNBC story reports that this man was a frequent attendee of American Friends of the British National Party rallies. |
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11 Jun 09 - 12:16 PM (#2654052) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: theleveller "I'll wait and see how far some people are willing to go with this issue. " Wait before you do what? Support it? Oppose it? Sitting on the fence can be a pain in the arse :) |
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11 Jun 09 - 12:32 PM (#2654064) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "Wait before you do what? Support it? Oppose it? Sitting on the fence can be a pain in the arse" that's the wonderful thing about democracy, you do what you want Some people are more a pain in the arse than sitting on the fence is. |
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11 Jun 09 - 12:37 PM (#2654069) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Rifleman, is there anything in particular, which makes you feel that you wish to stand back? I think like me, TheLeveller simply found your statement confusing. I didn't understand whatever point it was that you were making, or what exactly you'd been thinking about. |
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11 Jun 09 - 03:59 PM (#2654252) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Anne Lister Catching up, belatedly as ever ...I don't see any kind of "either/or" about people and their preferences for music from different cultures and their own. However, as this thread is concerned with the attack on "British" folk music (perhaps this should be "English") via the attentions of the BNP, and as English folk music and dance have been under various forms of attack by the media over more years than I want to think about (mostly humour, mostly harmless, admittedly, but not helpful), and as it is often more difficult to attract grant funding for projects to do with English folk culture than for music and dance from other cultural backgrounds ... in short, as in this context English folk music is very much the minority interest and one of the few places it happens is in folk clubs my point was that I don't want accusations of nationalism, fascism, jingoism and racism to attach to folk clubs that don't book other varieties of world music as a result of their booking policy. The cultural diversity question, applied to modern Britain, is indeed complex and full of contradictory potholes, to mix my metaphors and images. All I'm saying is that everyone is entitled to be proud of their own heritage, and that includes English folk enthusiasts and performers. No "either/or" involved. And when it comes to the old chestnut about how we're all essentially mixed ethnicities anyway over here - actually, not necessarily. In my family history the biggest mix was between Yorkshire and Oxfordshire, with a sprinkling of Devon, back at least as far as 1700. And most of them, I'm very proud to say, agricultural labourers or aspiring white collar workers rather than titled aristocrats. And none of this makes me a white supremacist, a racist or a follower of the BNP. I don't think I'm better than anyone else, but I do insist that my cultural heritage is equal to anyone else's. I am rather tired of feeling apologetic about being English - and unable to make a statement about this without appearing to be a moronic nationalist. |
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11 Jun 09 - 04:10 PM (#2654258) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: theleveller "Some people are more a pain in the arse than sitting on the fence is." Well, that's something we agree on. |
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11 Jun 09 - 04:29 PM (#2654273) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "Rifleman, is there anything in particular, which makes you feel that you wish to stand back?" "Some people are more a pain in the arse than sitting on the fence is." I'm niot actually sitting on the fence, but I do believe I'll do things my way in my time. |
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11 Jun 09 - 04:45 PM (#2654287) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Folknacious Anne: ENGLAND, HALF-ENGLISH Words & Music : Billy Bragg My mother was half-English And I'm half-English too I'm a great big bundle of culture Tied up in the red, white and blue I'm a fine example of your Essex Man And I'm well familiar with the Hindustan 'Cos my neighbours are half-English And I'm half-English too My breakfast was half-English And so am I you know I had a plate of Marmite soldiers Washed down with a cappuccino And I have a veggie curry about once a week The next day I fry it up as 'Bubble 'N' Squeak' 'Cos my appetite's half-English And I'm half-English too Dance with me To this very English melody From Morris dancing to Morrissey All that stuff came from across the sea Britannia, she's half-English She speaks Latin at home St. George was born in the Lebanon How he got here I don't know And those three lions on your shirt They never sprang from England's dirt Them lion's are half-English And I'm half-English too Le-li Umma le-li-ya le-li Umma le-li-ya Le-li Umma le-li-ya bledi g'desh akh! le-li-ya Oh my country Oh my country Oh my country What a beautiful country you are |
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11 Jun 09 - 06:10 PM (#2654355) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Dorothy Parshall Folk = Volk = people = ALL people regardless of whether we are "folk musicians" or what evers. "Folk" does not either denote nor connote someone wrapped up in the "folk scene." The music of the folk (people) of any part of the world has always included protest music, music telling about life as it is/was. Was that not the original purpose? Wandering minstrels carrying the news from hamlet to hamlet? And now - the internet carries the message around the world in seconds!! I see the Brits, or is it just the English, sticking closely to only music/dance that is "traditional". I see the US and Canadian folk sorts, festivals, what have you, sticking to "trad" music and contemporary "folk" and if any dancing at all - square, contra, or Morris. Would it be too broadening for the dance of the folk of other lands to be included? I love our folk music and musicians, prefer the more contemporary to the hard-core trad. But I live to dance and my preferred dance is the dances of the people - international folk dance - Greek, Serbian, etc. I feel in touch with those who have danced these for hundreds of years, with their music and their spirit. Perhaps broadening our own horizons would help us, and others, to broaden theirs? Lest our world be defined by the perimeter of our halo? (No offense meant to anyone.) In any case, it is good to see folks standing up to be counted. Let us not sit down until we have rocked the boat. |
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11 Jun 09 - 06:26 PM (#2654365) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman a very good post from Ann Lister. it is important that we do not allow english folk music to be hijacked by the BNP. In my opinion the answer is for folk club organisers to carry on with exactly the booking policies,that they feel is right for their club. some folk clubs promote English traditional music,some folkclubs promote contemporary songwriters ,some clubs promote both,some clubs promote blues.,long may that continue. English,Scottish , Welsh, Irish folk music needs to be promoted.,as does other national folk music. if a promoter wishes to run a club that is exclusively folk or roots music from another country,that is good. or if he /she wishes to start integrating folk music from other areas in to the musical programme,that is his/her choice.,the organiser is taking a gamble,and might be well advised to introduce,these changes gradually,or to seek the opinions of club regulars first,alternatively there might be a lot of new faces,who wish to hear a more international flavour of music. If he/ she does not want to do this it does not make the organiser a racist.,any more than would be the case,if it was an Indian person running an exclusively Indian folk music club in England ,India or anywhere else. But The reason for running a Folk/Roots club,should be,because the organiser enjoys the music and wishes to promote it. imo ,it seems incorrect for organisers to suddenly change their booking policies because of a fear that English folk music is being hijacked by the BNP,or because they think it might be a useful way of countering the BNP. the best way[imo] to counter the BNP is to defeat their arguments intellectually ,MBS GEORGE has not yet replied to the many posts,which might suggest that she knows that her points of view would be made to look exactly what they are,intellectually bankrupt. |
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11 Jun 09 - 06:35 PM (#2654374) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Andy Jackson A guy on Question time (BBC1 UK) just now admitted to voting BNP. When questioned why he replied from a written list with all the usual BNP lines. When pushed he had to admit it was to "put two fingers up to the three main parties". I do believe that is why they got in, thankfully not because people believe in their aims. This is not a call to apathy but rather the reverse, we should be engaging the BNP voters in proper dialogue and expose the truth of the BNP. FAF Andy |
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11 Jun 09 - 06:40 PM (#2654382) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Dave the Gnome I am slow on the uptake about political issues at times as can be demonstrated in various threads on the 'cat but I do eventualy cotton on:-) The more I think about this issue the more important I realise it is. If we let the BNP have their way we will loose a lot of what we take for granted. Imagine for one minute that we allow them to use Folk music and ritual dance in the way they want we will get the situation that the Folk club and Morris team will move from the slightly comedic butt of media jokes to an art form associated with this hateful organisation. Anyone involved will become tarred with the same brush and I, for one, will not sit back and let that happen. I urge anyone and everyone involved in traditional English music and dance to ensure that we fight the incidious invasion of our culture. If that means actively going onto the streets and making sure that everyone, from all cultures represented in the UK, are not only welcome in but can make a real difference to our traditions then that is what we should be doing. I'm on a mission... DeG |
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11 Jun 09 - 06:51 PM (#2654392) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Dave the Gnome I cross posted with Dick - some folk clubs promote English traditional music Yes, we do indeed. But maybe we should be widening the definition of traditional English music? England has been multi-national for hundreds of years and the traditions that immigrants brought with them are now as much a part of traditional English life as Morris dance! Like I said earlier, Chicken Tikka Masalla and Balti are now part of traditional English food. Surely we can do the same with music. Pop music has lots of examples of being influenced by music from, for instance, the Beatles' Maharisi Yogi days to Sting's Arabian themed Desert Rain. There must be plenty of folk musicians out there doing the same. DeG |
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11 Jun 09 - 07:35 PM (#2654425) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Andy Jackson I for one don't intend to be swayed by the BNP to change my preference for Britsh music. Luckily I think we have already established that that does not make me a racist. FAF Andy |
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11 Jun 09 - 08:42 PM (#2654462) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TheSnail Thanks to Anne Lister and Captain Birdseye. Spot on. Saved me a lot of typing. There are a wide variety of folk clubs and folk dance organisations. We don't all have to do it all. Bryan Creer |
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11 Jun 09 - 10:12 PM (#2654524) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ian Fyvie "I do believe that is why they got in, thankfully not because people believe in their aims." (Miskin Man) On BBC TV tonight I think it was Dianne Abbot MP who said the BNP got in through large numbers of working class voters being disillusioned with New Labour (where the New Labour's former middle class voters have gone to the Greens). As Miskin Man mentions, it's not generally that these working class voters are racist. Quite apart from the "two fingers to the three main parties" factor, it is that New Labour has left a vacuum in areas of huge working class concerns such as privatisation, feeding the Bankers instead of saving manufacturing jobs - things that Old (Peoples') Labour would have (one would hope) adressed. Where the Red and Green Left hasn't beeen active, thousands are only hearing one party saying what they want to hear on those traditional Labour issues. |
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11 Jun 09 - 10:22 PM (#2654530) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy IAN, you are quite right when you say there is a gap in the market, so to speak, that is just what they want the brits to think . that the BNP are for the ordiary people, if i didn't know them better i might have been persuaded, i know the truth about them and MOST of their policies still SOUND good, it is no wonder then that the less inclined are completely taken in. as for what folk clubs should do about this.....abSOLUTELY NOTHING.. keep doing what you are doing, you know what your' punters like and when they want something abit different,becuase they tell you and discuss it. we should not let the threat of the BNP change how and why we do the things we love. take care all i can't wait to get my FaF t shirt and wear it with pride x x |
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11 Jun 09 - 11:54 PM (#2654573) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Dorothy Parshall DeG: "Pop music has lots of examples of being influenced by music from, for instance, the Beatles' Maharisi Yogi days to Sting's Arabian themed Desert Rain. There must be plenty of folk musicians out there doing the same." OF course. And has been for centuries. The flamenco evolved from the whirling dervish. I see the steps of all contemporary dances in ancient folk dances. Musicians are certainly affected by the music around them. Just a different sort of evolution. To be aware is to begin to understand our connectedness. We do not need to lose by it. We gain with awareness and still can maintain the integrity of the traditional - all the better by our awareness. Look at very old trad music and see if there is not an influence from the Crusades in there at times??? The fascists cannot take anything from us unless we allow it, give up our power, fail in our vigilance. |
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12 Jun 09 - 01:05 AM (#2654595) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi I am reposting this comment from a current thread here because I believe it is pertinent this discussion: Subject: RE: 11 Hausa songs banned in Kano, Nigeria From: Azizi - PM Date: 12 Jun 09 - 01:01 AM If you do not care for the loss of freedom that other creative people are experiences, you should at least realize that you are laughing and sneering at information such at this at your on peril. What is occurring in this Islamic province of the multi-religious nation of Nigeria, is a sign of what could occur in other nations if people are not pro-active and vigilant. For instance, were a fascist government headed by the BNP ever to achieve real power in Britain or other parts of the United Kingdom, they would target song composers, musicians, film makers, vocalists, actors and other creative people just as is now occurring in that one particular area of Nigeria. This excerpt of that 2008 "Nigerian Writers, Film-makers Defy Censors" article that Guest Felipa alerted us to should serve as a warning of things to come: "Kano State government officials have burned books they say promote immorality... The imprisonment clause has been put into effect several times. Besides Adam Zango, who was imprisoned in September 2007, pioneering Hausa director and former Kano State gubernatorial candidate Hamisu Lamido Iyan Tama was jailed after copies of his film Tsintsiya were impounded from a video shop in Kano in May 2008. He was accused of not registering his company Iyan Tama Multimedia with the censorship board. (A court case reveals that the company had, in fact, registered and paid the required fees.) Ironically, the director was arrested the day of his return from the Zuma Film Festival in Abuja where Tsintsiya had won an award for Best Film on Social Issue. The new censorship regime has had the effect of suppressing Hausa filmmaking in Kano, Northern Nigeria's largest city. The exact size of the industry is hard to determine, but a 2002 study by the national censors board counted 133 Hausa films produced between January and August of that year, making the Hausa film industry second in size only to Yoruba. Although filmmakers are still doing post-production in Kano, locations have been moved to neighboring states, the majority now being shot in neighbouring Kaduna State. Filmmakers bypass the Kano State Censors Board by marking "Not for sale in Kano" on their films and selling them in other states. Following the exodus of the Hausa film-making scene from Kano State, Malam Rabo, the director general of the censors board, turned his attention to the writers in the state... The suppression of creativity in Nigeria is hardly a new phenomenon. Writers have been imprisoned and even executed like novelist and activist Ken Saro-Wiwa. However, the popular imagination combined with the subversive possibilities of such new technologies point to the impossibility of the task undertaken by the Censorship Board. Filmmakers travel out of state to film and bring the digital tapes back in to edit, taking them back out of state to market. Writers, kept from publishing articles in local newspapers, repeat sentiments on blogs and pass digital photos of correspondence with the censors via email listserves. Bus drivers plaster the windows of their ramshackle vehicles with stickers of "porn-star" Hiyana. Young people cite watching movies as inspiration for using their phones to record conversations with corrupt lecturers and authority figures who they then expose as hypocrites. In the Clarendon lectures given at Oxford University in 1996, formerly imprisoned Kenyan novelist Ngugi wa Thiong'o theorised that whereas the state seeks to silence alternate stories, "art tries to restore voices to the land. It tries to give voice back to the silenced". In Northern Nigeria , despite state-sponsored bans, book burnings, and imprisonments, it is becoming difficult to silence those voices in the first place." http://ipsnews.net/africa/nota.asp?idnews=43857 -snip- We Mudcatters should be standing in solidarity with the creative people in that Northern province of Nigeria instead of making stupid jokes about them. Isn't that what movements such as Folk Against Fascism is all about? Or is the concern about creativity being potentially stifled and actually stifled only there when it comes to White people? |
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12 Jun 09 - 01:13 AM (#2654597) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi Correction to my first sentence of that repost: "If you do not care for the loss of freedom that other creative people are experiencing, you should at least realize that you are laughing and sneering at information such at this at your own peril." ** Here is an additional excerpt from that article about censorship in the Islamic province of in the northern part of Nigeria, West Africa: "The censors board in Nigeria's northern Kano State was instituted in 2001 after the controversial implementation of Islamic shari'a law in Kano State. Film-making was at first banned outright, but the filmmakers' association of Northern Nigeria (MOPPAN) suggested a "review" board as a compromise measure, which allowed the industry to continue, though with certain restrictions on language, dress and "close dancing between men and women." (Five of the ten laws were specifically related to women's clothing or interaction with men.)... he imprisonment clause has been put into effect several times. Besides Adam Zango, who was imprisoned in September 2007, pioneering Hausa director and former Kano State gubernatorial candidate Hamisu Lamido Iyan Tama was jailed after copies of his film Tsintsiya were impounded from a video shop in Kano in May 2008. He was accused of not registering his company Iyan Tama Multimedia with the censorship board. (A court case reveals that the company had, in fact, registered and paid the required fees.) Ironically, the director was arrested the day of his return from the Zuma Film Festival in Abuja where Tsintsiya had won an award for Best Film on Social Issue. " -snip- Click http://ipsnews.net/africa/nota.asp?idnews=43857 to read more about what is now happening in Northern Nigeria and what could happen to creative people in my nation and your own nation if people aren't vigilant and pro-active. |
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12 Jun 09 - 01:51 AM (#2654608) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi I meant to post a hyperlink to that Mudcat thread that Guest Felipa started to alert us to the oppression of creativity that is occurring in one province of Nigeria. Here's that link: thread.cfm?threadid=121513&messages=7 "11 Hausa songs banned in Kano, Nigeria" ** At this time, the only other posting besides Felipa's and mine is a comment that "jokes" about Nigerian scam. I sincerely hope that other 'Catters and Mudcat guests will visit that thread and demonstrate your support for the songwriters, musicians, authors, film makers, actors, and other creative people who are being oppressed in that particular part of Nigeria. |
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12 Jun 09 - 02:46 AM (#2654619) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: VirginiaTam A slight aside. Heard on Beeb R4 this morning. The most common surname in Great Britain is 1/4 of a million strong and it is the name Patel. I think this perfect. I have invited Britain born Asian friend/former colleague to attend folk club with me, but folk music is not her cup of tea. Invited Turkish friend but she is young and prefers to spend her evenings playing snooker or riding about on motor bike with her partner. In fact I have invited all close colleagues and friends and only one has attended once. The general attitude is not interested. So we need to address the young. Having said that I wonder how we can first meet and then invite BME groups to engage in folk music and dance of Great Britain? I think one way would be through school fetes. If local Morris teams, ceileidgh clubs and folk musicians and singers would just approach the parent associations, get and invite, attend, do demos and provide recruitment literature and really welcome all.... oh dear.... Sigh.. I am dreaming again. |
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12 Jun 09 - 03:20 AM (#2654633) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer "Isn't that what movements such as Folk Against Fascism is all about? Or is the concern about creativity being potentially stifled and actually stifled only there when it comes to White people??" Standing in solidarity with other groups is very important, Azizi. But as I've explained previously, Folk Against Fascism has a very specific brief, and if we're not careful, the group could become diverted from that brief by trying to address too many issues on too large a scale. |
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12 Jun 09 - 04:51 AM (#2654666) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: SPB-Cooperator Pne of the things folk against facism is about is ownership of folk and ensuring that it does not ecome a right wing propagandist tool. Yes, we should be proud of our tradtions and open let all people irrespective of nationality and ethnicity share in the pleasure the provide. At the same time our traditions should sit comfortably alongside other traditions such as Diwali and Eid and Carnival (even if we get the date wrong in Notting Hill). I was invited to attend a party to celebrate Eid once and fekt honoured to receive the invitation. Lets promote lots of folk events, roots events, other cultural events to celebrate how it is the richness of diverse cultures makes Britain great, and welcome all people to enjoy and participate. |
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12 Jun 09 - 04:59 AM (#2654671) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Andy Jackson Ruth: I agree of course we must stick to our important,although at the moment a bit vague brief. BUT, Azizi has a very valid reason to broaden the information gathering. This action in Pakistan is exactly what we are guarding against. Whilst we should not as a body actively engage ourselves in their problems it serves as a warning to us. As an individual I shall be keeping an eye on the Pkistan problem and doing whatever small thing I can, but as an individual at the moment. Thanks Azizi for your input, it has opened my eyes several times. FAF Andy |
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12 Jun 09 - 05:00 AM (#2654673) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: IanC I think they said Patel is AMONG the most common surnames. There are 729862 Smiths at the last count. Patel comes 45th with 119855. :-) |
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12 Jun 09 - 05:25 AM (#2654679) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Andy Jackson I expect many will have seen this already, bu links are cheap enough!! It says everything really. FAF Andy |
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12 Jun 09 - 05:26 AM (#2654680) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: theleveller "At the same time our traditions should sit comfortably alongside other traditions such as Diwali and Eid and Carnival " This diversity is actively promoted in schools. My daughter goes to a CofE Primary school (it's the only primary school in the area)and alongside our traditional festivals, they learn all about those of other cultures. |
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12 Jun 09 - 05:31 AM (#2654683) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Andy Jackson Third try. All together now !! |
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12 Jun 09 - 06:00 AM (#2654692) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Folknacious We don't all have to do it all. No, of course we don't. But we have to be very careful how we explain why. If a club says it specialises in folk and traditional music, but really means British or English folk and traditional music, and by that really means the music of white British or English people who have been resident in the UK for (let's say) more than 100 years, then explaining that in terms which don't run close to the BNP manifesto will be difficult. Possible, maybe (just maybe) justifiable, but difficult. On the other hand, occasionally including traditional musicians from your local Somali, Polish or Bangladeshi community in a small way might easily be seen as tokenism if your heart's not in it. Always having positive reasons to explain whatever you do is a good start, and supporting FAF would be another, to make everything very clear. |
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12 Jun 09 - 06:07 AM (#2654695) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer "although at the moment a bit vague" We are raising awareness amongst the wider public of the attempt by the BNP to appropriate traditional music and culture as part of its racist definition of nationalism, and to claim that culture as theirs. We are attempting to block that appropriation. We are exposing the BNP as a party which has not changed, no matter how much they try and spin their PR, but which is still full of nazis and fascists. This is a specific agenda and a specific response to a specific set of circumstances - namely, the election of the BNP in Yorkshire, their selling of folk music on their website despite the wishes of the artists involved, and their campaign guides which advise activists to infiltrate folk culture. At the moment, that is what this is about. If it develops over time to embrace wider issues and themes that's fine, but in the meantime, I feel that there are a lot of existing groups who already cover these things and, while we may share solidarity with them, they are doing what they do very well and anyone is very welcom to join them. The campaign through which we will do this is still in development (which is forgiveable, I think, given that the whole thing is still only 4 days old). But it will cetainly include events, concerts, and distribution of awareness-raising materials such as badges, stickers and t-shirts, plus leaflets which explain the reasons behind the campaign. I hope that's clear. I think it's all there on the facebook page, really. By the way, to everyone who's told me about the identity theft - ta. Yes, they've done a "Hoff Bridge" on me, too. It's been reported to Facebook. Sad, really, but at least it exposes the BNP and their grubby little tactics to anyone who thinks they've "changed". |
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12 Jun 09 - 06:10 AM (#2654698) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lox "This action in Pakistan is exactly what we are guarding against." ... erm ... you mean Nigeria ... ... hey ... if I hadn't someone else would have ... :-) |
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12 Jun 09 - 06:14 AM (#2654700) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: SPB-Cooperator Folk music has been here longer than the BNP manifesto. Worker co-ops have been around longer than the BNP manifesto. We should not be apologising for the what we hold dear because the BNP are trying to hijack it. People own folk music, not the facist/Nazi movement. Suggestion to organisers: put Folk against Facism posters up at their venues, and refer to FaF in your adverts. Br proud of how our traditionas are contributing and enriching a worldwide, diverse culture, of which we are a sma;ll part. |
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12 Jun 09 - 06:24 AM (#2654705) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: theleveller As a resident of the area that voted in the first fascist MEP (through intention or apathy), I feel the need to try to alert my fellow East Ridingers to the dangerous path that has been embarked on – especially as Hull was the birthplace of William Wilberforce, the man whose vision and efforts helped to end the slave trade in Britain. So I've written what I hope will be a rallying call to those who oppose these evil people. I intend to sing it at every opportunity. The Legacy In Hull, William Wilberforce first struck the spark That kindled a beacon which lit up the dark And as the flames soared it was clear to see: The message that men must be equal and free. Chorus: So keep it alive, now, keep it alive, William's legacy has to survive. Freedom's hard-won so don't let it die Use your voices and votes to stamp out the lies. Today there are those who would put out Will's flame And put our traditions and values to shame. If you're black or you're brown, or a leftie, or gay, Get out of our country, you're not welcome, they say. Chorus Now they don't have shaved heads, they wear collars and ties But the cold light of hatred still shines in their eyes And instead of the boot they use soft words and smile But the message they peddle is equally vile. Chorus They may now think their views have legitimacy And the Queen may invite them to join her for tea But let's stand together and blow on Will's flame And shout to these bastards: "Not in my name!" Chorus So good people of Hull and the East Riding towns Don't let these bigots and fascists gain ground. We've opened the door to their doctrine of hate Now let's slam it again before it's too late. Chorus (Tune to follow). |
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12 Jun 09 - 06:42 AM (#2654711) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Folknacious - PM Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:00 AM We don't all have to do it all. No, of course we don't. But we have to be very careful how we explain why. If a club says it specialises in folk and traditional music, but really means British or English folk and traditional music, and by that really means the music of white British or English people who have been resident in the UK for (let's say) more than 100 years, then explaining that in terms which don't run close to the BNP manifesto will be difficult. Possible, maybe (just maybe) justifiable, but difficult. On the other hand, occasionally including traditional musicians from your local Somali, Polish or Bangladeshi community in a small way might easily be seen as tokenism if your heart's not in it. Always having positive reasons to explain whatever you do is a good start, and supporting FAF would be another, to make everything very clear. so does that make the Northumbrian Pipers society racist,because it promotes ,a SPECIFIC MUSIC,[IMO]no,it only becomes racist when it excludes other nationalities from playing that music. Neither is Comhaltas racist,because it promotes Irish music. it is justifiable,just as Strathspey and Reel societies are justifiable,they are justifiable because they gives people pleasure,and providing these societies are open to all nationalities they are not racist. would you expect the Sheffield, Yorkshire carol singers,to start singing French carols? to combat the BNP,that is ridiculous. one of the hallmarks of Fascism,is telling others what they should do if you want a multi cultural folk music club start one,you are free to do so. it will only be when the BNP takes power that you will not be free to do so. |
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12 Jun 09 - 07:38 AM (#2654728) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman Folknacious :here are the aims of the EFDSS MISSION STATEMENT: The English Folk Dance and Song Society will develop its resources, namely the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library, Cecil Sharp House, its professional staff and its members, to: • maintain itself as a centre of excellence for the study, practice and dissemination of traditional English folk song, dance and music; • provide national and local outreach services that enable and increase access; • celebrate diversity and promote equality. I do not think this is racist. FOLKNACIOUS,why should folk club organisers change their booking policies?why should the EFDSS change its policy. if you want a multinational/ international folksong/ music club,start one. |
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12 Jun 09 - 07:40 AM (#2654730) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi Here are some random comments: Miskin Man, I recall reading on this thread or on another current thread something about the oppression of musicians and other creative composers/performers in Pakistan. That being the case, I can understand how you substituted the nation name "Pakistan" for the nation name "Nigeria". Bottom line-I have no problem with that. ** I feel that too much energy on this thread is being spent on people feeling a need to declare that they aren't racist. I don't like the way this looks and feels. In the past, I've received private messages from some folks saying that they try to be extra careful what they say around me because they are concerned that I would call them a racist or-if I don't out and out call them a racist-I and other people might consider them racist. This troubles me because 1. I rarely have indicated that something someone wrote is racist (note I'm talking about a person's actions and not the person himself or herself) and 2. I want to be seen as "just one of the group" and feel that I shouldn't be thought otherwise just because of my race and just because I sometimes feel the need to raise issues of prejudice/racism and/or respond to issues that others here have raised about race/prejudice. In other words, I don't go around Mudcat or my offline life accusing Mudcatters and guests at being racism. That said, I believe that the current description (as I read about it on Mudcat-of Anglo British folk music (to use the "Anglo" meaning "White"terminology that is known in the United States)lends itself to expropriation by the BNP because it has so few non-White practitioners and followers/fans and because it appears to consider itself the only "traditional music" in Britain. In addition, the acceptance of songs with the "N" word, if that does occur as I read on Mudcat, and the custom of blackening up don't help answer any charge that might come (and I do believe will come) from people who are/will be far less friendly to your (our) cause than me. |
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12 Jun 09 - 07:50 AM (#2654735) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: treewind Never mind the political bickering, here's something else we can all do: (I don't think anybody's mentioned this yet) There's a petition which says NOT IN MY NAME. The petition will be handed into the European Parliament on the day that BNP leader Nick Griffin takes his seat. http://action.hopenothate.org.uk/notinmyname Get your digital cameras clicking! (you are asked to send in a photo of yourself holding up a card saying "not in my name") 63478 signatures already. That seems pretty amazing to me: it must have been running for a while) Anahata |
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12 Jun 09 - 07:53 AM (#2654739) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Tom Bliss I tried to upload a photo and it went 404 - but if it does that just quit and log in again. |
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12 Jun 09 - 08:02 AM (#2654747) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer I don't think it is appropriate to define Anglo by its American meaning when it's being used in England, Azizi. From Wiki: "The term Anglo is used as a prefix to indicate a relation to the Angles, England or the English people, as in the terms Anglo-Saxon, Anglo-American, Anglo-Celtic, Anglo-African and Anglo-Indian. It is often used alone, somewhat loosely, to refer to the English people in The Americas, Australia and Southern Africa. It is also used, both in English-speaking and non-English-speaking countries, to refer to Anglophone people of other European origins. Anglo is a Late Latin prefix used to denote English- in conjunction with another toponym or demonym. The word is derived from Anglia, the Latin name for England, and still the modern name of its eastern region. Anglia and England both mean Land of the Angles, a Germanic people originating in the north German peninsula of Angeln." English folk music is largely comprised of the indigenous folk music of England. It is not considered by anyone I know as the only traditional music in England - from ska to bhangra, it's all here, and long may it prosper. There is nothing wrong, as Dick Miles has insightfully pointed out, with having a society or group dedicated to a particular genre of music or dance. As long as that society is welcoming and open to people of all backgrounds, and they too, as Britons (whether naturalised or born here) are allowed to feel equal ownership over that heritage, I don't really see the problem. I also think it's important to look for natural points of convergence. I'm hoping to have a project at Sidmouth next year which will look at Caribbean and English mumming traditions. It involves bringing a group of Dominican and Kittitian mummers to Sidmouth. It also involves work in local schools looking at both traditions. For me, these are natural and organic ways of examining diversity: find the points of commonality and use them as an entry point into each other's cultures. That doesn't mean I think every folk club or singaround should contain African Caribbean songs - in fact, when at my local singaround a bunch of white, middle class people start singing Let My People Go or Bob Marley's Redemption Song, I cringe. I'd rather clubs and folk events were simply open and welcoming to anyone from other cultures who wishes to explore them. |
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12 Jun 09 - 08:14 AM (#2654755) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Folknacious FOLKNACIOUS,why should folk club organisers change their booking policies?why should the EFDSS change its policy. if you want a multinational/ international folksong/ music club,start one. Did I suggest they should? As is often the case, you read selectively, buzzed by your own bonnet bees. All I was saying is that people who want to specialise just need to present their case in a way that doesn't accidentally sound like the BNP manifesto. The EFDSS have managed that. Not too hard, unless you are chasing bees. Luckily I don't need to start my own. There's a very good one that I already attend which programmes all sorts of traditional music found in the UK, mostly from the white majority, occasional from a minority, which seems appropriately balanced, fun, successful, and not do-gooder tokenist at all |
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12 Jun 09 - 08:27 AM (#2654764) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Jack Campin That said, I believe that the current description (as I read about it on Mudcat-of Anglo British folk music (to use the "Anglo" meaning "White"terminology that is known in the United States) Please DON'T. Many Scots, Welsh and Irish will find that INCREDIBLY offensive. We AREN'T English, not even if you use a Latinate word for "English" to say so. "Traditional music of the British Isles" will do. lends itself to expropriation by the BNP because it has so few non-White practitioners and followers/fans and because it appears to consider itself the only "traditional music" in Britain. The Scottish experience suggests differently. Pretty near any political demonstration by forces on the left will have a Highland piper (or band thereof) near the front. There might well also be a samba school, but the expectation is that at least a large fraction of people involved in Scottish traditional music can be expected to turn up at any event opposing the sort of thing the BNP stands for. (The only kind of music in Scotland specifically associated with the far right is fife-and-drum band music, as used by the Orange Order). There are a few non-white performers of Scottish music - mainly on the bagpipes (and that's been routine for decades), but one of the best-known Scottish traditional pub singers in Edinburgh is of Chinese extraction. Getting morris sides at the front of English anti-fascist demos, and covered by the media when doing it, would help. In addition, the acceptance of songs with the "N" word, if that does occur as I read on Mudcat, Fairly unusual - I don't think I've ever heard that in a British folk performance, even one of the most antiquarian variety - but remember that the word itself doesn't carry quite the same nightmare emotional freight that it does in the US. At any rate there is absolutely NO chance that you would hear the word used in a British folk performance in a context where it would lend support to fascists. and the custom of blackening up don't help answer any charge that might come (and I do believe will come) from people who are/will be far less friendly to your (our) cause than me. Blackening up really is an irrelevance. It doesn't historically have anything to do with African people or images of them, and it isn't generally perceived to be related to racial issues, even by racists. Blacked-up dance teams look more like mineworkers coming off shift than anything else. It's crazy to try and pick a fight with people who perform in that tradition - more likely to lose allies for the anti-fascist movement and create new friends for the BNP. |
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12 Jun 09 - 08:50 AM (#2654775) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Andy Jackson Azizi: Sorry, I can do confused...But my sentiments were correct |
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12 Jun 09 - 08:59 AM (#2654782) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: treewind I've now tried signing the "not in my name" thing and I got an error message too (a different one from Tom). I'll keep trying... Anahata |
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12 Jun 09 - 09:25 AM (#2654799) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TheSnail Folknacious No, of course we don't. But we have to be very careful how we explain why. If a club says it specialises in folk and traditional music, but really means British or English folk and traditional music, and by that really means the music of white British or English people who have been resident in the UK for (let's say) more than 100 years, then explaining that in terms which don't run close to the BNP manifesto will be difficult. Possible, maybe (just maybe) justifiable, but difficult. Getting it quite so spectacularly wrong takes some doing. One of the purposes of this exercise is to prevent British folk music becoming tainted by the BNP. You seem to be saying that the battle is already lost; that the BNP already have possesion. The only way we can prevent this scum taking it over is making it truly our own WITHOUT having to justify ourselves. Would you have told Ewan MacColl that the policy at the Singers Club of only singing songs from your own culture "sound(ed) like the BNP manifesto."? |
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12 Jun 09 - 09:32 AM (#2654804) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Borchester Echo Oh no, not again. Policy @ Ballads & Blues as determined by the membership. Not Ewan MacColl (who had a wide repertoire from all over. And not the Singers' but the Ballads & Blues. |
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12 Jun 09 - 09:44 AM (#2654815) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Folknacious Getting it quite so spectacularly wrong takes some doing. Yes, I'm not sure how you manage it One of the purposes of this exercise is to prevent British folk music becoming tainted by the BNP. You seem to be saying that the battle is already lost; that the BNP already have possesion. Not at all. How on earth you and old Lietnenant Birdsnest manage to completely misinterpret plain English is beyond me. Which bit of "If a club says it specialises in folk and traditional music, but really means British or English folk and traditional music, and by that really means the music of white British or English people who have been resident in the UK for (let's say) more than 100 years, then explaining that in terms which don't run close to the BNP manifesto will be difficult" are you having such trouble with? The BNP don't have posession and I hope they never will: they might do if careless explanations of motivation (and heads in sand) play into their hands. The other people who worry me are the little Englander folkies who look at the BNPs sweetened camouflage words and go "oh, they might just have a point." The only point the BNP have is on the end of their bayonets. |
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12 Jun 09 - 09:49 AM (#2654819) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TheSnail Correction - Would you have told the residents* and members of the B&B Club (later known as the Singers Club) that their policy of only singing songs from your own culture "sound(ed) like the BNP manifesto."? * Who included Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger. |
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12 Jun 09 - 09:52 AM (#2654821) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Neil D Pop music has lots of examples of being influenced by music from, for instance, the Beatles' Maharisi Yogi days to Sting's Arabian themed Desert Rain. There must be plenty of folk musicians out there doing the same. DeG Like This? The Imagined Village |
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12 Jun 09 - 10:02 AM (#2654834) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman Post - Top - Forum Home - Printer Friendly - Translate Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Folknacious - PM Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:00 AM We don't all have to do it all. No, of course we don't. But we have to be very careful how we explain why. If a club says it specialises in folk and traditional music, but really means British or English folk and traditional music, and by that really means the music of white British or English people who have been resident in the UK for (let's say) more than 100 years, then explaining that in terms which don't run close to the BNP manifesto will be difficult. Possible, maybe (just maybe) justifiable, but difficult. On the other hand, occasionally including traditional musicians from your local Somali, Polish or Bangladeshi community in a small way might easily be seen as tokenism if your heart's not in it. Always having positive reasons to explain whatever you do is a good start, and supporting FAF would be another, to make everything very clear. FOLKNACOIUS these were your words,you said that it is only just justifiable with difficulty. it is perfectly justifiable. The Northumbrian PipersSociety,EFDSS,Comhaltas,the Strathspey and Reel society,[Icould probably find more examples]All have as their aim the promotion of one specific music,rather than the promotion of international folk music,it only becomes RACIST OR UNJUSTIFIABLE when they exclude someoneFROM PLAYING MUSIC on race grounds. |
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12 Jun 09 - 10:07 AM (#2654836) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TheSnail Folknacious Which bit of "If a club says it specialises in folk and traditional music, but really means British or English folk and traditional music, and by that really means the music of white British or English people who have been resident in the UK for (let's say) more than 100 years, then explaining that in terms which don't run close to the BNP manifesto will be difficult" are you having such trouble with? Er, all of it. I find the implication that unless I can "justify" my love of British or English traditional music that I am somehow a closet BNP supporter deeply offensive. Bryan Creer |
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12 Jun 09 - 10:25 AM (#2654844) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Jack Campin: "Blacked-up dance teams look more like mineworkers coming off shift than anything else. It's crazy to try and pick a fight with people who perform in that tradition - more likely to lose allies for the anti-fascist movement and create new friends for the BNP." I must agree with Jack here, too much damage done by whites 'in the name of' race relations has already occurred in the UK. It generates antipathy towards the cultures it purports to protect and is too often counterproductive. I believe in depth dialogues with British black people, would have to occur before anyone started intensive alterations of long existant native traditions 'on their behalf'. As for the N word, I've only ever heard OF it being used second hand, though the context was very ugly sounding - and there is a clear danger in such practices gaining popularity amongst BNP 'folkies'. But I do think it aught to be actively discouraged in any folk gathering, due to the potential wrongful abuse of 'historical accuracy' and 'tradition'. I liked the post by SPB-Cooperator however: "Suggestion to organisers: put Folk against Facism posters up at their venues, and refer to FaF in your adverts." As any such declaration, must deter fascists from indulging in 'traditional' practices for racist reasons. Nice post from Ruth A there too. Sorry to hear about the trashy intimidation tactics - much respect to you for being willing to undertake organising a public response to this this challenge to folk traditions and the the folk community. |
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12 Jun 09 - 10:41 AM (#2654851) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: IanC With reference to "blacking up" in the UK, it doesn't have the connotations it might have in the USA as the following may illustrate. Two weekends ago, I was dancing at Thaxted at a large Morris Ring gathering (about 400 morris dancers etc.). After we'd danced for the day, we (being rapper sword dancers) thought we'd like to dance inside a pub with a decent floor. Went in and found the Britannia Coconut dancers (very trad. Lancashire morris who black up ... looking, as has been said, like coal miners) and on the front corner of the bar a black morris dancer from a team in the West Country. All just talking together affably. No fuss. No suggestion of anything racial. Just a bunch of blokes having a convivial pint. All male of course, cos this is the Morris Ring, but that's another theme (and something I find quite difficult in itself). :-) |
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12 Jun 09 - 10:43 AM (#2654854) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Darowyn Well I think I know what I am going to do. I'll get the crew who were involved in this together again:- Colourblind Cafe and record some folk tunes and songs. The example is a multi lingual Jazz track- but you'll get the message! The project includes people from four continents and a dozen national origins. A good British band who will bring a world feel to British tunes. And let the blasted BNP find some comfort in that if they can! Cheers Dave |
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12 Jun 09 - 11:35 AM (#2654898) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Folknacious I find the implication that unless I can "justify" my love of British or English traditional music that I am somehow a closet BNP supporter deeply offensive. There was no such implication. The only "implication" was exactly what it said: that people who [b]aren't[/b] BNP supporters but want - and why not? - to have a specialist white Brit trad music policy for a club have to pick their words carefully to avoid it inadvertently looking like they're saying the same thing as the BNP manifesto. And that adding support for FAF would be a good way of helping that. Nobody said you had to book folk music from other cultures. Or were a BNP supporter. Just that you jump to conclusions that aren't there . . . which makes me wonder why you're so over-defensive. Sheesh, why are you lot so f***ing [i]dense[/i]! |
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12 Jun 09 - 11:52 AM (#2654907) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) Folknacious, some people WANT to be offended, they feel their day simply isn't made unless they feel offended at least a half dozen times. |
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12 Jun 09 - 12:12 PM (#2654918) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Welsh Viv For folk sake do you really think that folk music is gonna get someone interested in politics. Get a life...and some decent music. |
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12 Jun 09 - 12:16 PM (#2654926) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "For folk sake do you really think that folk music is gonna get someone interested in politics. Get a life...and some decent music" Oh look a Welsh troll *LOL |
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12 Jun 09 - 12:25 PM (#2654929) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Reminds me of someone going out of their way to watch dodgy porn, and then exclaiming in moral affront to the world, how dreadful and shocking their dodgy porn viewing experience was! |
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12 Jun 09 - 12:31 PM (#2654933) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) note the use of for FOLK sake...I've seen the usage somewhere before on these threads, damned if I can remember who used it though.... |
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12 Jun 09 - 01:40 PM (#2654993) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TheSnail Folknacious, you are getting this so utterly wrong that I don't quite know how to get through to you. Busy for the next couple of days. I might try and get back to you on Sunday. In the meantime, have a think about what you are saying. Bryan Creer |
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12 Jun 09 - 02:19 PM (#2655025) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: SPB-Cooperator WV the whole purpose of this is to stop extreme right-wing politics highjacking folk music for their evil ends. Read the posts!!!! |
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12 Jun 09 - 02:32 PM (#2655039) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Vic Smith Here's my contribution to the blacked-up faces part of this thread....... Twice in recent years, whilst we were organising British tours for our great friend, the Gambian kora player and singer, Jali Sherrifo Konteh, we have managed to get him booked at the Tenterden Folk Festival. This was great for Sherrifo because he loves all aspects of traditional culture wherever they are from. At one of these we were watching the Saturday afternoon procession and a blacked-up border morris team danced by. "Why do they put black on their faces?" Sherrifo asked. My reply was that it was to help to disguise their faces. "Oh yes. Like the Fula dancers that I took you to see in Busara." he replied. That reminded me that on one of our trips to The Gambia, Sherrifo had taken us to a boys' circumcision/coming-of-age ceremony in a village in the south of the country and the Fulas in that village - it was a predominately Mandinka village - that were going to be dancing covered their faces with a sort of white chalky mud. |
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12 Jun 09 - 03:00 PM (#2655057) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Anne Lister Folknacious, I'm still trying to work out why you quoted Billy Bragg's song at me. You think I don't know the history of these islands and our folklore? I think you missed the point of my posts, and as you're accusing others of being dense that's a bit ironic. I'll try to keep it simple. As someone who is NOT "half English" I want the same right to claim and support my cultural heritage as someone from another background, without any risk of hi-jack from the BNP or any other political group. Like anyone else, I also want to be able to incorporate other influences (or not), invite participation (or not) from other people who share my ethnicity (or not)and not feel I'm doing this out of compulsion or coercion either to attempt the strange phenomenon of "multicultural diversity" or to cock a snook at the BNP. My fears about the multicultural compulsion come after years of teaching in Hackney and Tower Hamlets. It feeds the fears of the "Little Englanders" who are the target audience of the BNP. Only when the English (and I'm deliberately not saying British in this context) feel they can express pride in their own cultural heritage and feel it's equally valued by the media and grant-funders will we de-fuse that particular situation. Me, I love the rich mix of Britain in all of its diversity. I'm also an enthusiastic supporter of our indigenous culture. Please don't preach at me, even through the words of Billy Bragg. |
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12 Jun 09 - 03:18 PM (#2655074) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Penny S. I'm a bit concerned that we are expected to put photos of ourselves on the petition. Since there has been for some time a photo of me talking to ANL supporters picketing an NF stall at a fete - a stall which, despite the woman running it claiming she was not ashamed of her party, did not show who it was, and was happy to take money from the local Indian population, I am a little cautious of contributing more information to their database.Photos are part of their intimidation techniques. Penny |
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12 Jun 09 - 04:55 PM (#2655148) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: melodeonboy Well done for your last post, Vic. Common sense demonstrated by a very clear example. Perhaps we won't have any more silly comments on that particular subject now. |
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12 Jun 09 - 05:53 PM (#2655204) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: greg stephens I made a modest suggestion that it might be nice to invite Zimbabwean friends down to the pub singsong or folk club. A capella African sits very attractively and pleasantly alongside Coppers harmony songs. I am surprised(well I'm not really) that this simple suggestion has been turned into "multi cultural compulsion" by another poster. I appreciate that there are about three posters on this thread who view the idea of a black singer visiting a folk club with hostility, but I am very pleased that the vast majoriy of folkies here in Britain would be absolutely delighted by a such a visit, and would be very welcoming. On that basis I will continue to arrange such visits, which luckily have so far led to very nice social occasions. AS far as I am concerned, a folk club is a folk club. If people want to run a white folk club, let them put that on the poster. |
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12 Jun 09 - 05:58 PM (#2655210) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Shit I used to be happy to pay to see Johnny Silvo, a grand singer. Still would be. I've never seen a folk club disrespect a folksong singer from a different ethnicity. Rifleman - I am coming to like some of your posts more and more. Some of the time! |
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12 Jun 09 - 06:06 PM (#2655216) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Vic Smith It does happen, Greg. We managed to get Sherrifo booked into a number of folk clubs on those tours - including our own in Lewes, of course. Other recent guests at our club have included Abdul Tee-Jay giving a wonderful evening of Palm-Wine music from Sierra Leone which - like Southern African harmony - fits well into the folk club setting and Musa M'Boob's masterly drumming in a pairing with Roger Watson's melodeon. And the guest list at the Magpie's Nest has included a locally-based Congolese band. Get me to tell you the story of Rev. Gary Davis staying at our flat after the folk club some time; I remember it really well though it was nearly forty years ago now. |
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12 Jun 09 - 06:39 PM (#2655235) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy hello all, i can't see why it should even be an issue if the person sitting next to you is black and singing or white and singing, as long as everyone is having a good time and hopefully singing in tune( me included) it's all good. why should anyone be offended by what we sing? we sing songs of love, compassion, gaitey, and strife, which anyone who understands the language could identify with. why would anyone want an all white folk club on purpose? i always thought that anyone was welcome ,if you know anywhere like that,, please tell me so i can make sure i never go there. i join in with the bits i can of foriegn singers so i wouldn't have thought there would be an issue. (if i don't like the song i simply go for a smoke break) lol take care all j x x |
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12 Jun 09 - 07:28 PM (#2655268) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Jack Campin Perhaps we won't have any more silly comments on that particular subject now. Azizi's comment was mistaken but not silly. You'd need a fairly close-up experience of the sociology of British folk ritual to see what those acts meant. For someone the other side of the Atlantic, generalizing from the semantics of blackface minstrel shows (which nobody here is advocating) was an intelligent guess. I still haven't had any response to my query about what the BNP might be up to with regard to the Scottish folk scene. Excalibur did include a few Scottish numbers in their catalogue so they're not totally ignoring us. Nobody know more? |
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12 Jun 09 - 07:59 PM (#2655287) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer "Azizi's comment was mistaken but not silly. You'd need a fairly close-up experience of the Azizi's comment was mistaken but not silly. You'd need a fairly close-up experience of the sociology of British folk ritual to see what those acts meant. For someone the other side of the Atlantic, generalizing from the semantics of blackface minstrel shows (which nobody here is advocating) was an intelligent guess." It's more than a guess: Azizi has been party to the various mudcat discussions about the roots of blacking up in minstrelsey, as well as those about Padstow Darkie Days. Personally, I think the issue of whether blacking up is acceptable is far from an open and shut case within the folk world, and that even "a close-up experience of the the sociology of British folk ritual" doesn't necessarily tell you what those acts "mean". But I'd prefer not to discuss it on this particular thread. |
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12 Jun 09 - 08:13 PM (#2655293) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi I remain unconvinced that there is no historical connection between the British custom of blackening up and the American blackface minstrel shows (which toured widely in Britain). That said-I admit that I don't have-(as Jack Campin) phrased it-"a fairly close-up experience of the sociology of British folk ritual" and therefore I don't know what blackening up means to different populations of British people-including those who blackened up in the past (and sung minstrel songs, including songs with the "N" word) and those who blacken up now (who may or may not sing minstrel songs, including those with the "N" word-a word I find offensive regardless of the race of person singing it. In 2005 and 2007 I asked if any research studies had been done on the attitudes about blackening up that are held by People of Color in the United Kingdom. "Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days' From: Azizi - PM Date: 22 Jan 07 - 03:43 AM I repeat a question I asked in 2005: Have there been any research studies of the impact of UK blackening up traditions on self-esteem and group-esteem of people of colour in the UK and on White people in the UK? If so, what were those studies and what were their results?" thread.cfm?threadid=87981#1943998 -snip- It is now 2009 and I'm asking the same question. Surely some reputable research has been done on this subject. I would appreciate it if someone could point me to reports of such studies. As I wrote earlier in this thread or another recent Mudcat thread about the BNP, I realize that everyone who supports the Folk Against Fascism group and its mission will not agree on everything. Regardless of the rationale that most British Mudcatters have made for blackening up (that it is a disguise) and regardless of the comparisons that some African performers have made to the British custom of blackening up and the custom of using white ashes or white face and body paint in traditional African rituals and blackening up, I still don't like the British custom of blackening up. Because I am an American, I realize that I don't have to like it, but again, I wonder how Black Britons and other British people of color feel about this. I also wonder what Black Britons in general and other British People of Color consider to be "British traditional folk music". Perhaps it's as difficult if not impossible for one definition of "British traditional folk music" from British People of Color as it is from Mudcat members in general. However, I don't think that this is a tangential question to the mission/issues of the Folk Against Fascism group. My bottom line is that I very much believe in what I consider the mission of Folk Against Fascism (which as I understand it) is that people are uniting and taking pro-active steps to ensure that hate groups such as the BNP aren't successful in their attempt to expropriate British folk customs, including folk music, in support of the BNP agenda. |
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12 Jun 09 - 08:16 PM (#2655296) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi Joan, I posted my comment before reading yours. I agree that the discussion of blackening up should not continue on this particular Mudcat thread. FWIW, I'm not interested at this time in in continuing that discussion beyond what I wrote in my preceding comment to this thread and my previous comments in other Mudcat threads. |
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12 Jun 09 - 08:47 PM (#2655310) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman I do not view black singers singing in folk clubs with hostility. Folk club organisers ,have the right to book who they wish. These decisions will vary,Vic Smith will have had a different booking policy,say to the Ruskin house folk and blues club,or to Traditions at the Tiger,what is wrong with that.,is there any evidence that any organisers are racist,if there is then name them if not shut up. if an organiser of an event or a society,wishes to promote English traditional music,as does the EFDSS,then they only become racist,if they exclude other nationalities,from participating. Mission Statement & Strategy MISSION STATEMENT: The English Folk Dance and Song Society will develop its resources, namely the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library, Cecil Sharp House, its professional staff and its members, to: • maintain itself as a centre of excellence for the study, practice and dissemination of traditional English folk song, dance and music; • provide national and local outreach services that enable and increase access; • celebrate diversity and promote equality. are you suggesting that the EFDSS,should put up a notice saying Whites only at Cecil Sharp House,if you are, then it is you that is racist. if the EFDSS has a brief to promote English traditional music and song,is it not reasonable to accept that other Folksong clubs if they so wish should not do the same. do you criticise BLUES CLUBS for promoting one specific music,and excluding English Traditional music,no I bet you dont,neither do you criticise Cajun Music Clubs for promoting Cajun Music exclusively.,do you criticise the Northumbrian Pipers society for promoting Northumbrian Pipe tunes. please answer these questions |
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12 Jun 09 - 09:25 PM (#2655342) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi Captain Birdseye, If you are specifically asking me a question or questions, I would appreciate it if you would address those questions to me by name. If you are asking if I criticize clubs that focus on specific music genres for specializing in specific music genres, of course I don't. With regard to British folk clubs that focus on "English traditional music", my point is that I'm not sure what "English traditional music" means and I'm not sure if everyone in England-including Black Britons (in general) and other British People of Color-agrees on what that referent means. Ditto for English folk music-which I gather from reading Mudcat threads isn't necessarily the same thing as "English traditional music". In addition, I don't agree with your comment (one that I read before on this thread or other threads from you and/or from others) that "if an organiser of an event or a society,wishes to promote English traditional music,as does the EFDSS, then they only become racist,if they exclude other nationalities,from participating. There are other ways that racism can be expressed and/or condoned apart from excluding "other nationalities" from participating. [my italics added for emphasis] BTW, I assume when you wrote "other nationalities" that you meant what Americans would refer to as "race" since quite a number of People of Color are British, that is-they are the same nationality as White British people. As I write this, I'm mindful that I learned from some other Mudcat discussions that there is not only a difference between what many Americans and many British people mean by "race" but there is also a difference between what many Americans and many British people mean by "Black [people]". The referent "People of Color (PoC) as I am using it to refer to all those persons who are considered [in the USA at least] to be non-White) has become widely used in formal & scholarly discussions at least among PoC. The fact that sometimes British English and American English are "foreign languages" to their residents may mean that we don't always "get" (understand) the nuances of what people are saying on this international discussion forum. Added to that is the fact that there are also Canadians, Australians, people from other European nations, and other folks posting on this forum and probably also on this thread-and add to that fact that we also include colloquial expressions and are each speaking from our own experiences, it's a wonder that we appear to understand each other as well as we do. |
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12 Jun 09 - 09:31 PM (#2655350) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer The current phrase that equates with PoC in Britain is BME (black and minority ethnic). But it's primarily used in government and funding circles. Most British people still just say black. |
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12 Jun 09 - 09:34 PM (#2655354) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi Here's one reason why as an American I'm concerned about the issues of White supremacists organizations/political parties such as the BNP: "Guys like this [former politician/current television news commentator Pat Buchanan] really do scare me The xenophobia, the ultra-nationalism, the utter contempt for rule of law... if the Republican Party becomes the party of this clown, and of Sarah Palin, they may lose more of the electorate, but we have also lost something important. I the only person who misses an Eisenhower-style Republican Party? Conservative, wrong, but not hateful? I would like to see a real opposition party based on real ideas, based on some kernal of rationality - even if I don't agree with their specific policies. Maybe in a changing nation clowns like this asshole undermine Republican electoral chances. Maybe they will be marginalized for a generation or until they change or until they fall apart completely. But unexpected disasters can and do happen. Economies can melt down, violent events can take place, and the public is easily stampeded. It scares the crap out of me to see the opposition turning into this sort of nativist nationalist - indeed fascist - opposition. " by ivorybill on Fri Jun 12, 2009 at 05:26:41 PM PDT ** "This is ugly but no doubt true As whites become a minority] this type of interest-group "white nationalism" will inexorably increase. Even in Europe the demographic changes resulting from immigration are driving a massive increase in far-right white racial separatist and supremacist politics. WHith the US's much deeper heriatage of racist exclusivism and lack of a leftist tradition to siphon social tensions into class-based politics, racial confrontation politics on the part of whites, especially among the marginalized, poor, working-class, and small-town population, is very likely to be one of the dominating features of AMerican politics for the next 30 years." by ActivistGuy on Fri Jun 12, 2009 at 04:57:44 PM PDT http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/6/12/741739/-MSNBC,-Pat-BuchananWhite-Supremacists MSNBC, Pat Buchanan & White Supremacists by BarbinMD Fri Jun 12, 2009 at 04:50:06 PM PDT |
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12 Jun 09 - 09:54 PM (#2655363) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi Joan, thanks very much for that information. I wasn't familiar with that "BME" term. With regard to "black"/"Black", I learned from another Mudcat thread that in Britain some Asian people such as those from Sri Lanka and Pakistan are also called "black". This is different from the custom/definition in the USA. I recognize that this is tangential to this thread. However I believe that this example points out the difficulties that are inherent to an international discussion forum. I recognize that and understand why most of the members of the Folk Against Fascism group are now and probably will always be from Britain. However, if more Americans join the FaF group, there will be other examples such as the "nationalities" means "races" in Britain that demonstrate the differences in terminology that are between us and which may cause problems if not properly explained and understood. |
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12 Jun 09 - 10:39 PM (#2655386) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer "This is ugly but no doubt true As whites become a minority] this type of interest-group "white nationalism" will inexorably increase." This is one of the scare tactics used by the BNP to whip up paranoia: they talk aobut whites becoming a minority in Britain in just a few decades due to unregulated immigration. They talk about being "flooded". But immigration into the UK is, in fact, strictly regulated. And Britain is still 92% white. |
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13 Jun 09 - 01:41 AM (#2655435) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: SPB-Cooperator Goid point... flooding implies that the UK popylation would rise from aproximately 60 million to 90 million in a short period of time. I hink in my lifetime (nearly 50 years) it has risen by about 6 million. |
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13 Jun 09 - 04:27 AM (#2655453) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Anne Lister Oh, Greg, if you meant me when you referred to "multicultural compulsion" then I wish you would read such comments in context. Your wish to invite performers to your club or session is great and I have often wished (and expressed that wish) that we had more diversity in our clubs and festivals. But what I am trying very hard to say is that where a folk club wants to concentrate on traditional English music (and wants to define that in whatever way they choose) there should be no implicit or explicit interpretation that they would be a home for BNP supporters. As things stand, I can go to a Welsh language or Welsh folk music music event, an Irish language or Irish folk music event, Breton, Scottish, Bengali, Jamaican .... fill in the defining culture for yourself - and none of these will be under any kind of pressure to include other cultures. But make that "English" and all of a sudden we're slightly ashamed to put our heads over the parapet. Make the choices you want. I too would go out of my way to hear South African black unaccompanied singers - although as people have a tendency to sing along in most UK folk clubs I wouldn't necessarily think that was the best venue for hearing their voices. And I used the phrase "multicultural compulsion" because I have lived with that in my professional life for some time, both in teaching and in storytelling. Too often it's a matter of lipservice to qualify for funding or political approval rather than an intelligent choice. If you're making intelligent choices, I'm in your corner. |
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13 Jun 09 - 04:59 AM (#2655458) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Andy Jackson Azizi: You said it yourself: "My bottom line is that I very much believe in what I consider the mission of Folk Against Fascism (which as I understand it) is that people are uniting and taking pro-active steps to ensure that hate groups such as the BNP aren't successful in their attempt to expropriate British folk customs, including folk music, in support of the BNP agenda." That is why I am supporting FAF. Any diversions into yet more discussion of Darkie Days and Blacked up Morris, only dilutes and distracts from the present mission. You have agreed that Americans have a diifferent view of this than us over here. Let's leave it at that for now and concentrate on the real issue. Other threads exist to discuss blacking up in all its guises. FAF Andy |
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13 Jun 09 - 05:02 AM (#2655460) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer "As things stand, I can go to a Welsh language or Welsh folk music music event, an Irish language or Irish folk music event, Breton, Scottish, Bengali, Jamaican .... fill in the defining culture for yourself - and none of these will be under any kind of pressure to include other cultures. But make that "English" and all of a sudden we're slightly ashamed to put our heads over the parapet." That statement is worth examining in the context of the wider discussion here. We shouldn't forget that it's in large part the legacy of the pre-BNP (the National Front) which got us to this place. They did such damage to the whole concept of English nationalism in the 80s, by linking it to racism, that it has never recovered. Now those very same people (many of whom now run the new-look BNP) are capitalising on the legacy THEY CREATED to say to white English people, "All these other cultures can celebrate their identity - why can't you? Why should you have to be embarrassed?" I find it incredibly perverse that they present themselves as the solution to a problem they not only created, but would, if they became more powerful, both strengthen and perpetuate. I can't believe there are people who fall for their rhetoric. The other thing to say to people who tell us that the BNP are nothing to worry about, and that they will always be on the political periphery, is that it only took a tiny minority back in the 80s to bring English nationalism into such disrepute that 25 years later it has not yet recovered. |
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13 Jun 09 - 06:06 AM (#2655476) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman Azizi,I was adressing Greg Stephens. nobody accuses the hammersmith irish centre of being racist because it promotes Irish music,nobody accuses CAJUN MUSIC CLUBS of being racist because they specialise in one kind of music,you cannot have one rule for some and another rule for others. Iam in favour of multi national folk music clubs ,I am also in favour of clubs/ societies that promote exclusively one kind of music. what I am fighting against,is the BNP hijacking our music,and the attitude of certain people to dictate what club organisers should have as booking policies,leave that up to the organisers,if you dont like it start your own club,instead of whingeing on this forum. |
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13 Jun 09 - 11:19 AM (#2655599) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "the BNP are nothing to worry about, and that they will always be on the political periphery" try telling that to several cities where there are more than one BNP member sitting on council, Stoke-on-Trent comes to mind. While I'm posting this,I'm listening to Sandy Denny's wonderful recording The North Star Grassman and the Ravens, Late November at the moment, and I got to wondering what, if anything, Sandy would have made of all this. |
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13 Jun 09 - 12:17 PM (#2655622) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Dave the Gnome Dick, Greg does indeed organise some very good multicultural sessions and concerts. Although I am sure he needs no-one to fight his corner for him I do know he could be too busy to respond for a few days. I don't think anyone is advovating that traditional English music should be somehow banned or restricted. All we are saying is that it is simply because most clubs do have a image of English exclusivity, rightly or wrongly, then it does encourage organsisations lik ethe BNP to latch on to them. As you say, we have Irish centres, Cajun clubs etc. I, for one, have sung and English song at an Irish club. I have not been to a Cajun club but I am pretty sure they would be happy with me squeezing out an Englsh tune in a Cajun style. As long as the BNP know that English music is inclusive of other cultures we will have nothing to worry about. Greg is one of the people that is that is doing just that. Alongside playing and promoting some very fine English music and it is doing the cause of FaF no good to argue between ourselves! Cheers DeG |
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13 Jun 09 - 12:32 PM (#2655629) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,coolkieless Rifleman "BNP know that English music is inclusive of other cultures we will have nothing to worry about." I'll rest easy in my bed knowing that......... |
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13 Jun 09 - 12:51 PM (#2655642) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Anne Lister Ruth, yes, I was aware of the history and all the various reasons why Englishness has been a difficult thing to deal with. And this is precisely why I'm concerned that we shouldn't feel we have to be defensive if some of our folk clubs continue to concentrate on what they've always concentrated on. I think it's interesting that Dick and I are making substantially similar points - he lives in Ireland, I live in Wales, and both of us can see the difference in countries that are proud of their own culture. |
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13 Jun 09 - 01:12 PM (#2655652) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Darowyn My idea seems to have gone down well. There is every possibility that the Birmingham based Urban Jungli Project will be recording a set of British Folk songs. It's a sort of reverse multi-culturalism, by which people with roots in other cultures are invited to share their take on the native one. I can't be bothered with all the arguing on here, I just want use our music to lay down a marker about what the real Britain is, as a counter to the racist and factional nonsense that is coming out of the woodwork recently. Let's get some FAF gigs sorted! Cheers Dave |
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13 Jun 09 - 01:42 PM (#2655673) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) How promising and interesting too. I suspect that younger people (of whatever background - but in particular including British folk) will generally be more interested in becoming involved that kind of positive pro-action than some of the older folk enthusiasts who may prefer a more conservative form of action. Though to be fair to DeG there (who isn't I believe a yung'un?), that was an excellent post IMO... Inevitably some forms of participation in FaF, will be more reserved than others, while some will be more dynamic and challenging. I believe what matters is not that all participants agree on a single *unified method of action*, but that each do what they *enjoy* and are *happy to*, while maintaining a *unified purpose*. Though there can never be any harm in trying something new once in a while for anyone...? I think the thing to hopefully attempt to maintain in view throughout, is that the music is there to be shared and enjoyed. If people are not genuinely enjoying their form of activism (though of course there are unpleasant challenges for those in very public view), then something needs to be reconsidered. |
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13 Jun 09 - 02:14 PM (#2655683) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Stringsinger Azizi, I think your post on the atrocities in Nigeria fit well within the "Folk Against Fascism" agenda. It has to be recognized that throughout history and the world, Africans and African-Americans and Blacks, Asians, Hispanics all have been victimized by fascism which contains the component of discrimination by race and culture. To isolate "Folk Against Fascism'' to a local problem regarding the BNC is short-sighted. FAF must address the larger issues in order to be effective in informing how folk music is used as a social force for change. What happens in Africa affects us all. It resonates in communities all over the world. At the present time, fascism is rearing its ugly head in many countries including the US. Mussolini's definition of fascism prevails today in the form of corporate tyranny in the world's economy. It impacts on every country in the world. Power, greed and money are the three major components of fascism and the capitulation of world leaders to this ideology are evident. At stake are the goals of the IMF, NAFTA and the other financial bodies that promote "Free Trade" without "Fair Trade". The former is fascistic, the latter, anti-fascist. Thanks for keeping us informed about Africa. Frank |
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13 Jun 09 - 02:17 PM (#2655685) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer "Let's get some FAF gigs sorted!" There's a meeting at the beginning of July to discuss a concert tour of major venues, but it will be important to have events of all sizes, appealing to different types of audience. More news as it becomes available, but it's all looking quite exciting. |
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13 Jun 09 - 02:38 PM (#2655692) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Dave the Gnome Crow sister - How did you guess? :-) Rifleman - Stop siniping :-P David el Gnomo antigua |
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13 Jun 09 - 02:48 PM (#2655696) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,ifor When some BNP members made appreciative noises about Bellowhead John Boden gave a suitable response.He put an anti fascist sticker on his fiddle and spoke out against the BNP. ifor |
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13 Jun 09 - 02:54 PM (#2655699) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) "To isolate "Folk Against Fascism'' to a local problem regarding the BNC is short-sighted." The FaF has a very *specific* focus to raise awareness of the BNP's activities, because English/British traditional music and folk customs are being *specifically targeted by the BNP* for far-right wing propaganda. As RA explained below, the organisation was created to counter propagandist activities of the BNP targeting English traditional music and custom. It could have been called: "Campaign to raise awareness about, and challenge the British National Party's politicisation of Traditional English and British music and customs." But it would be less catchy. However I think the Facebook page makes the remit very clear. No doubt if the organisation develops and gains momentum, the brief could be expanded in time to encompass broader issues. But IMHO it's far too early to demand it extend itself beyond this immediate challenge, at such an early point in its conception. |
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13 Jun 09 - 02:54 PM (#2655701) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Dorothy Parshall Multiculturalism took on new meaning for me last night when the International Folk Dance group (Seattle), out of close to 40 dances we did, enjoyed the Greek dance Syrtos to the music of Ruby Love, Cat Stevens and the Turkish dance Sweet Girl to the Beatles Do you Need Anybody. No one complained about "tradition"; everyone had fun. Tradition is important to the point that is becomes a hindrance - maintained without being worshipped? "Dissent is the ultimate form of patriotism." |
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13 Jun 09 - 03:16 PM (#2655721) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace "Dissent is the ultimate form of patriotism." I don't agree. |
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13 Jun 09 - 03:30 PM (#2655736) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Borchester Echo If we're down to sloganising, here are two from The English Acoustic Collective: Traditions must be respected but conventions can be broken and The gold you are searching for is in your own backyard. Multicultural artistic collaboration is not new (Boka Halat/Edward II/Ale Möller Band, to start a long list) nor is dancing to whatever were the pop tunes of the day (the tunes in the Playford Dancing Master didn't fall from the C17 sky). The focus of FaF, as well as safeguarding trad music from the threat of hijack by the BNP will also cover extension of this phenomenon, down through the ages. It's what English musicians have always done and they will not be deflected. |
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13 Jun 09 - 03:52 PM (#2655748) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Wolfgang 75 years ago, the Volk was for fascism, not against. Wolfgang |
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13 Jun 09 - 04:05 PM (#2655752) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Tom Bliss Don't forget to write to your MP asking them to put English traditional arts and music into the National Curriculum - (in a safely teacherly way, of course)! It won't take long to establish that it came from here, there and everywhere and belongs to everyone and no-one, and always did/will. Waiting for a reply from mine. |
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14 Jun 09 - 03:03 AM (#2655951) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Folk isn't alone in being targeted by the BNP. Seems anything seen to be classically British or English, is fair-play to be borrowed as BNP propaganda. Fortunately not everyone is willing to allow their traditions to serve the BNP's political agenda. Royal British Legion (a non political organisation) have publicly demanded that Nick Griffin cease co-opting their poppy emblem in memoriam of war dead, as BNP political propaganda. Nick Griffin hasn't been simply wearing the poppy on rememberance day like everyone else, but throughout his entire political campaign in Europe. Open Letter to the Guardian This is another example of their political advertising on the back of remembrance of war dead. A prior example was to be found during a remembrance day service where a wreath of poppies emblazened with the BNP slogo and a message which read: "You fought bravely to keep this country for your own. Rest in Peace. Now it's our turn." greatly distressed people who had gathered for the service. |
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14 Jun 09 - 03:14 AM (#2655954) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Jesus can anyone imagine what their campaign strategy is like? Where do they get this stuff from? Next we'll be seeing Griffin et al, gathering pridefully round the local war memorial, while wearing 'Beefeater' uniforms, tucking into Lancashire Hot-Pot followed by Eccles Cakes, before having a hearty singaround of pure unadultarated English folk songs. I reckon they'll top it off with a nice fireworks display, a brass band, and Last Night at the Proms style flag waving fest. The BNP notion of Britishness is a surreal pastiche. It'd be funny if it wasn't so eerie and macabre. |
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14 Jun 09 - 05:10 AM (#2655978) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Crow Sister....I'm 54 years old..and whether folks on here like it or not..I *remember* a time when what you've put above was is EXACTLY what DID happen. OK, so times have moved on, a great deal, and now most prefer Chicken Korma to Lancashire Hot Pot, but...and it's a big BUT....but one of the reasons why the BNP is getting the support it is, imo, is because for decades we've never been allowed to mention our past, our memories, or to think back.. I was brought up on Roast Beef and Roast Potatoes..My Dad loved Eccles Cakes..I used to love seeing the Beefeaters, on a rare trip to London, soaked up the history, loved it all. I still love it, the Kings and Queens, the houses and castles.. There is NOTHING wrong with who we are. We are England...and that encompasses our memories, our past, present and future.... Now those memories also include the tantalising scent of curry drifting down the High Street, the Notting Hill Carnival, the Imagined Village and so much more, all of which have *enriched* this nation, but let us also remember our past too. Hell, every other country in the world is allowed to, so why not us? My childhood was NOT racist. My father went to war to ensure that scum like Hitler didn't win, that facists didn't rule the world..but to say what you've said above, is stirring nothing but anger, in my opinion, although I realise you may not have meant it that way. I had a wonderful childhood, grew up in a wonderful country, but I've watched my country tear itself apart, because it lost sense of who it was, where it was going. It absorbed the hatred poured down on us by so many, when ALL countries have bad things in their past. Yes, we had slavery, but we also had William Wilberforce! Many other countries also had slavery, including the African nations themselves...Not ALL thing within the British Empire were bad...Yes, much was appalling, but there was some good there too. My kids still have the occasional plate of Roast Beef and Yorkshire puddings, and that does NOT make them racist. Neither does loving the sound of Church Bells, or seeing cricket being played on village greens...I don't give a flying duck what colour skin the players may have...It's the esssence of watching something that has been enjoyed for so long, that is part of who we are.. It's no different from loving folk songs for the same reason... I get so sick of the way the racist label is flung around at innocent folks. I'm English, I'm also British, but more importantly, I'm just one of the Human Race...and I see souls, not colours. I loathe the BNP, but I love the country I grew up in...and the way it's changed too, in the areas where it's changed for the better...but I hate the way we've been made to feel so wrong, for so long...when England, in particular, (as the book goes) is one of the most welcoming and tolerant nations in the world! So REJOICE over our Lancashire Hot Pot, and serve it up next to the Curry, because the Hot Pot is AS important as the Korma... And THAT is what has been forgotten for so long.... AND...it is THAT which is feeding the BNP's success... In my ever so humble opinion... And no, I did NOT vote for them, before the usual bunch come in here yelling 'nasty little racist' at me... Thank you. |
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14 Jun 09 - 05:28 AM (#2655987) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: theleveller Lizzie, I think what Crow Sister is saying is not that these things are bad - of ocurse they aren't - but to highjack them and make them part of a fascist agenda devalues them and implies that those of us who have contrary views to these thugs - and who enjoy the diversity of food/culture/music/people which is part of the REAL Britain are being unpatriotic and subversive when, in fact, the exact opposite is true. For a view of the true diversity of England, look at the England In Particular website and the absolutely wonderful book that they produced. |
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14 Jun 09 - 05:30 AM (#2655988) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Andy Jackson Lizzie: You re absolutely right these are all the things that many of us love and enjoy. But I think that is the reason Crow Sister mentioned them. It is the thought of the BNP using them for their own devious means that offends. I think you are both right, if that's possible on a Mudcat thread! FAF Andy |
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14 Jun 09 - 05:32 AM (#2655990) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) You are missing my point quite entirely LC. But I don't have time to explain. And err 'thank you' too I guess, whatever that means...? |
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14 Jun 09 - 05:32 AM (#2655991) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Andy Jackson What leveller said... |
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14 Jun 09 - 05:35 AM (#2655992) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) What they said.. ;-) |
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14 Jun 09 - 06:03 AM (#2655996) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Silas Good post Lizzie ! |
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14 Jun 09 - 06:10 AM (#2656001) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Hello, another suspicious GUEST! |
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14 Jun 09 - 06:18 AM (#2656005) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Joe P Who has ever been accused of being racist for eatig roast beef? Whats this thing about not being allowed to celebrate our 'Englishness'? Its a myth. |
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14 Jun 09 - 06:25 AM (#2656008) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman I agree with Lizzie. we can be proud and wish to promote our music culture,and still appreciate the music and cultures of others. I play sing English Scottish Irish ,traditional music,I also listen to reels to ragas on my wireless,and have a music collection that is very catholic. I believe it is agood thing that the English folkscene has clubs with different booking policies,some english/scottish Irish traditional,some blues some contemporary,some all these things,some with performers form other parts of the world. but if a club chooses to specialise[booking policy wise] in one kind of music,be it English traditional or African music or French music,the organiser has every right to do so,without being called racist. I cant think of a single club that has ever stopped a performer from singing a song[other than the club Ewan and Peggy were involved in ,over 40 years ago],when Lisa Turner was stopped from singing Single Girl,or was she reprimanded after?. did anyone accuse those organisers of that club of being racist. I think it is a great idea ,if people want to organise multi cultural folk clubs festivals societies,I also think it is great ideas that societies/ clubs want to concentrate as Comhaltas and EFDSS do on Irish or English Traditinal music. The two can co exist together,. |
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14 Jun 09 - 06:27 AM (#2656009) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: SPB-Cooperator Lizzie, We are lucky to live in a country where we can makr choices about how we wish to live our lives (within the law) To take the Roast Beef of Old England analogy. If we want a Sunday roast all we have to do is go to the supermarket and buy what we want, or even go to the local pub if we dint want to cook. Also in that supermarket we could buy the ingredients for a curry, a stir-fry. The choices we have reflect the diversity of cultures (and food tastes). But noone is condemning anyone who wants the roast beef. However, BNP wold argue that because we have the choice of other foods we are losing the right to roast beef which is a twist of logic and quite frankly round spherical objects which for some people is a delicacy. The same applies to culture which includes folk music. We have the choice of (English) folk music, all forms of folk music, roots, classical, reggae, pop, rap etc etc. As long as enough people have an interest in any type of culture, it will continue. The main barriers to the continuity of folk is not some conspiracy o put down folk but more straightforward issues like pub landlords making more money from juke boxes, pool tables, restuarants and so forth. |
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14 Jun 09 - 06:31 AM (#2656011) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Silas Richard, your paranoia is starting show again. I am not a 'suspicious' guest, I post fairly regularly, but do not set up cookies on computers that I do not own. |
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14 Jun 09 - 06:37 AM (#2656013) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Ah, but, Silas, despite the old saw that just because one is paranoid does not prove that "they" are not out to get one, the antics of the identity thief "Hoff Bridge" proves that "they" ARE out to get me. |
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14 Jun 09 - 06:40 AM (#2656015) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick In the midst of all the invective I'd like to remind people that today would have been the eightieth birthday of Anne Frank. Where has he gone My dearest son? Perhaps during the uprising The cruel enemy killed him Ah, you bad people In the name of God, the most Holy, Tell me, why did you kill My son? Never again Will I have his support Even if I cry My old eyes out Were my bitter tears to create another River Oder They would not restore to life My son He lies in his grave and I know not where Though I keep asking people Everywhere Perhaps the poor child Lies in a rough ditch and instead he could have been lying in his warm bed Oh, sing for him God's little song-birds Since his mother Cannot find him And you, God's little flowers May you blossom all around So that my son May sleep happily From Henryk Górecki. Symphony No 3. The Symphony of Sorrowful Songs |
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14 Jun 09 - 06:45 AM (#2656016) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Silas Richard, let there be no doubt, they are out to get you. Just need to know just who 'they' are.... |
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14 Jun 09 - 06:46 AM (#2656017) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Royston Lizzie Cornish, You say that the "Racist label gets thrown at innocent people" for liking cricket and roast beff. Well, that's not true. The racist label gets thrown at the guilty people who blame or hate non-white or immigrant communities for irrational reasons. In fact your post reads like BNP propaganda..."The lefties want to lynch you for drinking warm beer" sort of twaddle. Racism is normally a symptom of individual anger, insecurity and ignorance. The internal dialogue of the racist boils down to something like... "I'm not happy in my life, my skin. I can't cope with change around me. I have anger, the causes of which I can't or won't face up to. I see people unlike me and my kind, whom I worry are doing better, getting more, having a happier life than me AND I HATE THEM FOR IT!" This is the message of the vile racist/fascist BNP. It's all about channeling anger and fear. You see it when the mobs set out to lynch a paediatrician because they think they've found a paedophile. Hitler did it..."Jews are bleeding you dry, Gypsies steal babies, homosexuals threaten the future of the pure race (along with disabled people), together these are the strange "They" and Them" who you must blame for all Germany's troubles. Get rid of "Them" and you will be OK, you are the chosen, you are the entitled, THEY are the problem." And the BNP are absolutely no different. Griffin, on video, addressing white supremacist groups in America, denying the holocaust as a jewish propoganda plot and explaining how he is reluctantly forced to avoid talking about their race and white supremacy agenda in the UK...until they get more power! Andrew Brons (the other MEP) was convicted of racially abusing a black police officer shouting "death to the jews" amongst other things. He was also the former president of the National Front. These people are morally bankrupt fear and hate mongers. They are a danger to humanity. They use a legal political process by telling lies about what their real agenda is, hiding behind the laws of free speech. Now, I don't suggest denying them a platform but I do advocate a policy of "Never forget, never compromise and never surrender" in exposing these people for what they are and for legally frustrating any and all efforts they make to peddle their lies and misinformation. By the way, we can get rid of the BNP's rallying cries if we would all lobby our MP's of all parties to be better governors. The BNP say; "THEY are taking the council houses"...I say build more of them then! "THEY are taking the school places"...I say build more schools! "THEY are filling up the hospitals"...Last time I was in one, it was full of white drunks but nonetheless BUILD MORE OF THEM!!! It ain't rocket science. |
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14 Jun 09 - 07:18 AM (#2656025) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: PaulF Well, what a lot of hot air this has generated. Along with a large dollop of smugness. People confuse, xenophobia and racism, with fascism. Isn't it nice to be nice? We'll show them we disapprove, we are the exclusive members of Mudcat, and our disapproval counts. NO IT DOESN'T! Getting off your arses and doing something about it counts, going out and voting counts. How many of you people actually know what fascism is? Then out of them, how many went out and voted in the recent election? No petition ever changed anything! PF |
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14 Jun 09 - 07:30 AM (#2656028) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy paul, yes we know what facism means, yes we we voted, yes we are trying to do something by educating those people who don't know what the BNP stand for. what else would you suggest o wise one? jade |
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14 Jun 09 - 07:40 AM (#2656031) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lizzie Cornish 1 "You say that the "Racist label gets thrown at innocent people" for liking cricket and roast beff. Well, that's not true..." Wanna bet? "The racist label gets thrown at the guilty people who blame or hate non-white or immigrant communities for irrational reasons." No, the 'racist' label gets thrown around very liberally, by those who are some of the most excluding people I've ever come across, who seek to damage and destroy the reputations of those they wish to be rid of. Sadly for them, it doesn't always work. "In fact your post reads like BNP propaganda..."The lefties want to lynch you for drinking warm beer" sort of twaddle." 'The Lefties' , the Extreme Lefties, like any 'Extreme' have a great deal to be ashamed of. They are all the same, no matter what side of the fence they are on. "Do things OUR way, or we will make you life absolute hell!" I have NEVER done anything any way other than my own..and never will do. The folk world has an element within it who actually feed the BNP, imo, perhaps without realising they're doing it, because they almost demand PURITY. Purity of song Purity of accent Purity of music ALL *must* be English, in the *right* way It's a load of crap, along with this English 'class' thing, which again is used to abuse and isolate by those with other agendas. We are all simply......people. I don't give a monkey's if someone's singing an English folk song in their own accent, there is no ONE accent. There is, however, only ONE race, and that is the Human Race. So take you 'BNP propaganda' and place it wherever you so choose, but don't come shoving it at my door, because I've been there, done that, and I'm wearing the T Shirt with 'Fook Off!' on it. :0) |
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14 Jun 09 - 08:06 AM (#2656039) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman I did vote,in fact because I live in Ireland and have proportional representation,I voted 1 to 9,and in the local elections. my first vote was for the Irish Labour party,I did not vote for Fianna Fail,neither did I vote for any Fascist/racist party. I cannot say I was very impressed with any of the candidates,But I still consider it important to vote,by not voting,you become responsible if a racist Fascist party becomes elected. |
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14 Jun 09 - 08:16 AM (#2656045) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: SPB-Cooperator I know what fascism is - I have never personally experienced it, but I have friends who have. I also have friends who escaped to this country for fear of their lives from the fascist state where they lived. Also I have always voted in every election since I was old enough to vote. |
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14 Jun 09 - 08:52 AM (#2656058) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi For what it's worth, I agree with Captain Birdseye's 14 Jun 09 - 06:25 AM post excluding his comment about British or English folk clubs-I exclude that portion of his comment only because I know too little about British or English folk clubs to agree or disagree with that comment. Also, FWIW, Lizzie Cornish is my friend, and she's no racist. I agree with Lizzie's point that "The folk world has an element within it who actually feed the BNP". It's pm;s I would interpret Lizzie's "purity" description as folkies believing that traditional English folk music must meet their definitions and their standards and if it doesn't than it isn't really traditional English folk music. But-it seems to me-that every art form has an element who seek to strictly define what their art form is and how it should be presented and/or performed. That viewpoint/preference doesn't make those people racists. Royston, I think that Lizzie's statement that the "Racist label gets thrown at innocent people" for liking cricket and roast beff" (beef) can be true simply because-as it has been often noted on this thread and other threads on this subject-the BNP is trying to expropriate elements of traditional English culture and trying to twist and use use people's fondness traditional English culture for their (the BNP's) hateful purposes. Because the BNP twist a genuine appreciation for traditional English culture around for their purposes, some people can think that Lizzie's comment "reads like BNP propaganda". But that doesn't mean that what Lizzie wrote is in fact BNP propaganda. Also Royston, I agree that people are racist "who blame or hate non-white or immigrant communities for irrational reasons." I also agree that personal "Racism is... a symptom of individual anger, insecurity and ignorance." There is also "'institutional racism' describes societal patterns that have the net effect of imposing oppressive or otherwise negative conditions against identifiable groups on the basis of race or ethnicity." http://civilliberty.about.com/od/raceequalopportunity/g/inst_racism.htm On other threads I have commented about Lizzie's statement that "There is, however, only ONE race, and that is the Human Race." I understand the spirit of what she is saying, and agree that this is the bottom line. However, I wish to say for the record that such a stance can be used to support institutional racism. That said, I don't intend to go further into a discussion of the whats and hows and whys and whos of racism on this thread. |
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14 Jun 09 - 09:06 AM (#2656065) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Thank you, Azizi. x |
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14 Jun 09 - 09:13 AM (#2656072) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi I'm sorry. The "It's pm;s" in my preceding posts is a result of poor editing on my part. I was going to write that "it's through pms that I have come to know Lizzie and quite a number of other posters to this thread. But I thought I was deleting that sentence because I recognized that whether or how I've developed relationships with Mudcatters in addition to exchanging comments with them on this public forum is really not pertinent to this discussion. |
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14 Jun 09 - 09:15 AM (#2656074) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Oh, we don't mind, Azizi, no worries. xx :0) |
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14 Jun 09 - 09:16 AM (#2656075) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi You're welcome, Lizzie. Now, as the American television host Ed Sullivan used to say "On with the show". |
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14 Jun 09 - 09:23 AM (#2656077) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TheSnail greg stephens If people want to run a white folk club, let them put that on the poster. Remind me, Greg, how many of The Boat Band are black? The only people on this thread equating British with white are you and Folknacious. Bryan Creer |
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14 Jun 09 - 09:38 AM (#2656082) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: theleveller "Getting off your arses and doing something about it counts, going out and voting counts. How many of you people actually know what fascism is? Then out of them, how many went out and voted in the recent election?" Yes, I do know what fascism is - it's what my father fought against in WW2. Yes, I did vote in the recent elections and the fascists got in in my constituency. Yes, I will continue to oppose them in word an deed every step of the way. Smugness is people who sit on their arses and criticise others who CARE about that these bastads are doing. Oh, and YES, our disapproval does count and WTF are you to say different? |
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14 Jun 09 - 09:53 AM (#2656088) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TheSnail Folknacious Sheesh, why are you lot so f***ing [i]dense[/i]! I know it's not very British to boast of one's own acheivements but could I just point out that it was me that first drew attention to the fact that the BNP were selling folk records through their Excalibur marketing arm in this post which I think I can claim as one of the roots of Folk Against Fascism. Perhaps you would then like to have a read through my posts on the BNP: What would you do? thread. I notice that you did't take part in either of those threads or any other thread about the BNP until you started this one. Then you might like to consider whether I might be someone who does have a rather better idea of what he is talking about than you and that I don't need to justify my musical taste to you or anyone else. After that perhaps we can get together to work on keeping the B4$%!4$£ds out of folk music. Bryan Creer |
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14 Jun 09 - 10:04 AM (#2656090) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Kampervan Am I alone in despairing over the fact that there can be so much dissent among people who believe in a common goal i.e. neutralising the BNP? |
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14 Jun 09 - 11:37 AM (#2656122) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Vic Smith Kampervan wrote "Am I alone in despairing over the fact that there can be so much dissent among people who believe in a common goal i.e. neutralising the BNP?" Sadly, the whole history of left-wing politics in the UK suggests that those involved spend more time and energy on nit-picking internecine rows than addressing the ghastly right-wing horrors that they oppose. |
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14 Jun 09 - 11:49 AM (#2656128) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Dorothy Parshall Kampervan and Vic Make an important point. One which has frustrated me for years. Solidarity wins in the end. "The more we get together..." |
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14 Jun 09 - 11:52 AM (#2656134) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer "The folk world has an element within it who actually feed the BNP, imo, perhaps without realising they're doing it, because they almost demand PURITY. Purity of song Purity of accent Purity of music ALL *must* be English, in the *right* way" For all the times you've made this claim and been asked to provide ANY evidence for it, you have been absolutely unable to. So can you please stop trying to stir the crap, and please, please, if you have nothing more constructive to contribute, just leave this project alone. Honestly, it is much more important than gratuitous point-scoring, and it really isn't about you. Thank you. |
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14 Jun 09 - 12:04 PM (#2656143) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Stringsinger There is an analogy that takes place here in Southern Georgia, US. They have "Southern Re-enactment" groups that purport to teach a narrow history of the Confederacy. These groups are often filled with mis-information which I suspect is also the case with the BNP supporters of their kind of "folk". The antidote to the problem is more study and interest in the roots of English music that can be shown to dispel the propaganda mechanism that is employed by the BNP (who probably really doesn't care about British folk music and is more concerned with their political ideology). For this reason, it's a good thing that British people are taking an active interest in the music of their cultural heritage and explaining it for the edification of the public. Another analogy would be the hyped-up interest in Wagner's "volk" in Hitler's Germany. Real German folk music was not really addressed. Songs like "Die Gedanken Sind Frei" which have a venerable history was not part of that agenda. Ruth Archer's approach seems reasonable to me. Educate and inform the public about all aspects of British music and you will expose the BNP for what they are, ideological right-wingers and white supremacists who really don't give a damn for British folk music. I see as a corollary to this idea of folk music to show the effects of British folk music in other lands and cultures as well. I was impressed with Micheal Flatley in the Comhaltas convention in St. Louis a while back sharing the stage with African-American tap experts showing the connection between clogging and step-dancing from two different cultures. It illuminated the role of Irish step-dancing. Similar juxtapositions of cultural expressions could be applied to British folk music culture. As we know on Mudcat, many variants of songs that originated in the British Isles found roots in other cultures. Folklorists and collectors are aware of the unifying aspects of their work. The more you dig deeply into one culture, the better capable you can share it with another with the same enthusiasm and knowledge. Frank Hamilton |
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14 Jun 09 - 12:15 PM (#2656147) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: PaulF "Sadly, the whole history of left-wing politics in the UK suggests that those involved spend more time and energy on nit-picking internecine rows than addressing the ghastly right-wing horrors that they oppose." Hardly surprising Vic Smith, after all, socialism is the politics of envy, which instead of bringing people up to the same level, drags them all DOWN to the same level. It was OK, and right on for Arthur Scargill and John Prescott to have Jaguar cars, but perish the thought that anyone they consider right wing should enjoy the same privileges! Anyway, why do they assume that it is only the left wing who are against the BNP? |
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14 Jun 09 - 12:15 PM (#2656148) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Dave Earl Yes Vic There has been a lot of bickering (here and in other threads)about what seems to me to be "side issues" more than the objectives of the F.A.F. facebook group (nearly 2200 members in so few days). Do we all need reminding that what we are objecting to is the highjacking of the art form we love and contribute to by the BNP? That is as far as it goes for me. I don't care what others feel provided we all agree that on this fundimental issue. Dave |
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14 Jun 09 - 12:20 PM (#2656154) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Borchester Echo It would be vastly in the interests of clarity to leave Riverdance out of it. It's nothing to do with Irish trad (whether real or fake) and its not really very much to do with the BNP's own "music" (which consists of trashy ditties about how nice the English countryside would be if it weren't for immigrants spoiling the view). It's about this vile bunch of thugs expropriating English music, not just trad but singer-songwriter and (quite extensively) neo-classical. Just take a look at the Excalibur catalogue, much of which is in there without the artists' permission or knowledge. True, they too don't seem to actually know what English music is, including, haphazardly a smattering of Scottish, American and European recordings. However, the point is that the BNP is attempting to claim support from performers who have not given it. |
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14 Jun 09 - 12:51 PM (#2656170) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer "I was impressed with Micheal Flatley in the Comhaltas convention in St. Louis a while back sharing the stage with African-American tap experts showing the connection between clogging and step-dancing from two different cultures. It illuminated the role of Irish step-dancing." I wonder if they talked about William Henry Lane, "Master Juba", at all? He was a free black man who grew up in New York in the 1840s or 50s. He learned Irish dancing from both the Irish in his neighbourhood and from other black dancers, and beat Irish dancing champions when dancing jigs and reels. The dance style he evolved is thought to be one of the main roots of tap dance. He died really young, but not before coming to England and dancing in front of Queen Victoria. An interesting footnote is that, at this time, white men always portrayed blacks on stage. It was the height of minstrelsy. So when Master Juba performed, he had to black up. The world was not ready to see a real live black man on stage. Not sure that any of this is much to do with Folk Against Fascism, but an interesting example of different cultures collaborating to create something brand new. |
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14 Jun 09 - 01:01 PM (#2656176) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: greg stephens The Snail, a few post back, asked how many of the Boat Band were black. I am not sure what point he is seeking to make by this question. Anyway, I will point out that if you have a look at the Boat Band's Myspace page, you will find three out of the six recordings that we have up there feature black musicians. |
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14 Jun 09 - 01:05 PM (#2656183) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Borchester Echo Not sure that any of this is much to do with Folk Against Fascism I'm quite certain that neither Vic's falling out with the SWP in a fit of Left Wing Communism: An Infantile Disorder (© V I Lenin) nor the Pasty's irrational hatred of everyone who's signed up to FaF (2,225 in under a week) have much bearing on it either. But that's where it is, growing and unstoppable. Well done, Lilian Bellamy. |
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14 Jun 09 - 01:11 PM (#2656188) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer Cin cin, darling. |
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14 Jun 09 - 01:22 PM (#2656196) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: fairplay Does the FAF disassociate itself from those who advocate violence against the BNP? |
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14 Jun 09 - 01:32 PM (#2656204) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Dave Earl This subscriber to FAF does not support violence from any quarter. Which side of the fence is Fairplay sat? dave |
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14 Jun 09 - 01:39 PM (#2656208) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer Violence against the BNP brings us down to their level - so I removed posts from the FAF facebook page which celebrated the egging of Nick Griffin. I don't see such acts as particularly constructive or helpful. Of course, this rational approach has not stopped members of the BNP hijacking the internet identities of me and several other members of the group, and sending us nasty personal messages. These are the actions of bullyboys and thugs. |
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14 Jun 09 - 01:47 PM (#2656211) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: fairplay Ruth Then why use Bragg as an icon on your Youtube site? |
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14 Jun 09 - 01:56 PM (#2656218) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: theleveller "Hardly surprising Vic Smith, after all, socialism is the politics of envy, " Which is, of course exactly the sort of stupid, sweeping statements that right wing reactionaries love to make because. In their selfishness and self-absorption, they simply can understabnd altruism(hey, if you can make sweeping statements, so can I). I envy very few people (except Martin Simpson - talented bastard!). What I look for is a fairer society that values the individual, but not by how much they can earn or how many possessions they have. Yes, I've been there - big car, big house, six figure salary - the works, but all it brought was a disaffected lifestyle. Now I have a different attitude whereby people are more important than possessions. Personally I despise both Prescott and Scargill (for different reasons). Your statement merely shows that you are totally ignorant (or simply jealous) of the liberating effect that true socialism brings. |
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14 Jun 09 - 02:02 PM (#2656224) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lox Dear Fairplay, Would you mind explaining this for us? It is a video of the BNP's national press officer (apparently known as "the doc" as he has a PHD). In this video he explains that Black people are genetically inferior to white people. He tells us this to explain why they are more disposed to crime etc. Heres the video |
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14 Jun 09 - 02:16 PM (#2656235) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lox By the way, I seem to have managed to conscript 4 non cattters onto the FAF facebook group. It must therefore be a very good idea. :-) |
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14 Jun 09 - 02:19 PM (#2656238) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TheSnail greg stephens The Snail, a few post back, asked how many of the Boat Band were black. I am not sure what point he is seeking to make by this question. I was trying to make light of your absolutely outrageous comment about white folk clubs. Why are you playing into the BNP's hands by promoting the idea that an interest in British traditional music equates to being a white racist? Bryan Creer |
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14 Jun 09 - 02:33 PM (#2656250) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer "Then why use Bragg as an icon on your Youtube site?" what youtube site? |
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14 Jun 09 - 02:36 PM (#2656253) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Dave Earl "what youtube site? " That's what I thought Dave |
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14 Jun 09 - 02:47 PM (#2656261) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Excuse me, but I wasn't saying complaining about the FAF idea. I think it's a good one and hope it goes well. Read my post again, there is nothing there *against* what you're doing. I was merely saying that some in the English folk world could do with looking at the 'purity' aspect of what they believe, and compare it to others who also believe in purity. It's what the BNP love to latch on to. And yup, they're nasty little b*ggers ain't they when they come over to myspace/facebook pages etc. Always best to send them off with a hefty boot up their backsides, is what I find. |
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14 Jun 09 - 03:11 PM (#2656283) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer "I was merely saying that some in the English folk world could do with looking at the 'purity' aspect of what they believe," Despite being presented with lots of evidence to the contrary, you have never been able to say WHO these people are, what the purity actually consists of, and precisely how it manifests itself. Saying that this imagined zeal for "purity" (whatever it may mean) is feeding the BNP is both defamitory and untrue. So please, Lizzie - just walk away and let it lie, because this is not an area that will be served by gratuitous attempts at point-scoring. |
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14 Jun 09 - 03:32 PM (#2656296) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST Myspace, sorry. |
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14 Jun 09 - 03:37 PM (#2656302) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer 99.99% of what Billy Bragg has said over the years about nationalism, identity and the BNP is absolutely reflective of what FAF is trying to do. He made 1 statement with which I personally would not wish to align the group. I think we can forgive him that. |
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14 Jun 09 - 03:43 PM (#2656309) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman the English folk revival,has many people to thank for its birth and continuance,including EFDSS, the Northunmbrian Pipers Society,EwanMaccoll,MartinCarthy,AlLoyd,Lou Killen,Bob Davenport,all of these people ,have promoted ENGLISH TRADTIONAL MUSIC,[Ewan promoted Scottish music as well]all these people would be shocked if their interest in British[the folkmusic of the islands of Britain] was construed as making them white racists. Greg Stephens,you are playing into the hands of the BNP. we need to stop them claiming British folk music as theirs. starting INTERNATIONAL FOLK CLUBS is an excellent idea. but trying to tell existing folk club organisers what they should do,is undemocratic and unreasonable. |
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14 Jun 09 - 04:00 PM (#2656321) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick Lox. "It is a video of the BNP's national press officer (apparently known as "the doc" as he has a PHD)." I remember seeing that clip of Phil Edwards when it was first broadcast and thinking "what an absolute schmuck". The idea that Africa never created any great civilisations is a bit of a laugh to anyone who has ever studied African political systems. Likewise, the idea that Africa represented a safe haven, where the mind of man had less need to develop is ludicrous. Perhaps someone could point out to this eejit that the brains of Neanderthals were just as large as ours. I don't remember them producing any great civilisations either. Besides, which, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the thinking of modern biologists is that the brainpower of the human race reached its present form during the very earliest stages of our development as homo sapiens; when our forebears were forced down from the trees by climatic change, and were forced to compete with more powerful but less smart animals than we. OK., maybe I've been overdosing on Robert Winston, but as a sociology graduate, I do have some understanding of the limitations of IQ measurement; and some appreciation of the difficulties of applying intelligence tests cross culturally. Come to think of it, if this geezer is right, and intelligence really does represent some sort of inverse measure of criminality, then the large number of thugs and criminals in the ranks of the BNP supports the view that their average member must be as thick as two short planks. But it's that bit about black people never having produced a Mozart or a Dickens which showed up this alleged intellectual for the ethnocentric moron he really is. European art forms are the products of literate cultures. That means the work of Dickens, Mozart, or any other European creative artist, roughly from about the time of the Norman conquest, is frozen. We know precisely what they created and what it sounds or looks like, because it's written down. (I'm excepting visual art from the argument of course, but BNP bigots might care to ponder the effect which Benin bronzes had on early twentieth century painters.) But, remembering that Africa was historically non-literate, and nothing was written down, how can he "know" that that vast continent never contained anyone as intrinsically gifted as either of the two gentlemen he held up for comparison? All artistic output was non-literate once, and what little has survived indicates that much of it was rich indeed. To extend the geographic boundaries of the argument for a moment, has this gentleman ever heard of Homer, whose creative abilities were preserved purely because the non-literate epic bardic tradition, to which Homer belonged, happened to co-exist alongside a tradition of Greek literacy? How many African Homers have there been down through the ages, whose exegeses have been lost because nobody was there to write them down? Does he not realise that the pre-literate world was stuffed with the most astonishing poets, storytellers, praise singers and musicians? And quite a few of them were African. For that matter, does he not realise that the compositional form par excellence, throughout the third world (including Africa), was one of spontaneous improvisation? And comparing that with written composition is like comparing chalk with cheese. I'm copying all my old vinyl to computer at the moment, and just by chance I've come to the section on West African griots. OK., we accept that Africa left us no formal musical compositions. But is there any way we can compare the improvisational talent of the best West African griots with the improvisatory abilities of composers like Mozart? We can't unfortunately, because, although improvisation was once a much favoured skill, and although we know that Mozart was a formidable performer in that field, the European tradition of improvisation died out before the invention of audio recording. But if he was as good as of any of the members of the Konte family, or Amadu Bansang Jobarteh, or Jali Nyama Suso, or for that matter as good as any number of black modern jazz players, then by heck, good he must have been. BTW., Although the BNP membership list shows only 7 Phds, out of 12000 members, or about 0.058% of the total membership, I can't find the name of Phil Edwards among them. Does he really exist? And what I wonder was his Phd in? |
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14 Jun 09 - 04:19 PM (#2656331) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Spleen Cringe People, any chance this thread can primarily be used to promote Folk Against Fascism, please? The nitpicking and point scoring belong somewhere else. Let's at least pretend we can agree on this one thing (that we don't want fascist gangs appropriating folk music to serve their political ends) even if we disagree on everything else! |
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14 Jun 09 - 04:41 PM (#2656348) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Steve Hunt Someone asked why Billy Bragg is used as an icon on the MySpace page. The Billy Bragg quote on the FAF page is one of several available clickable banners for the "Love Music, Hate Racism" campaign page. Other banners include quotes from Pete Doherty, Lethal Bizzle, Carl Barat, Shane MacGowan and Natty, but BB seemed the most obvious one to use on a UK folk page. |
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14 Jun 09 - 04:44 PM (#2656354) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,ifor "Love Music Hate Racism" is an organisation set up to use music to counter fascism.It recently held a 20000 strong music and anti fascist carnival in Stoke [where the BNP has around 10 cllrs and which it regards as its stronghold ]. This Love Music Hate Racism event was young and multicultural and anti fascist. Folk Against Fascism might consider teaming up with LMHR to promote a few antiracist gigs. Some eyes and ears might be opened on both sides of the folkie /non folkie divide. LMHR is backed by quite a few trade unions and anti fascist groups like Unite Against Fascism.It is seen as the successor to Rock Against Racism which was particularly active in the late 1970s. It would be great to see performers like Bellowhead on the same bill as the Asian Dub Foundation and Steel Pulse. ifor |
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14 Jun 09 - 04:55 PM (#2656365) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Steve Hunt It certainly would, Ifor - personally I'd like to see The King Blues at Cambridge, too! One festival stage where there isn't so much "divide" is the Left-Field at Glastonbury. Sadly I won't be there this year, but I really can't recommend it highly enough to anyone who is venturing to Pilton. |
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14 Jun 09 - 05:21 PM (#2656373) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: greg stephens The Snail makes a most bizarre remark about me: "Why are you playing into the BNP's hands by promoting the idea that an interest in British traditional music equates to being a white racist?". Now, why would I be promoting that idea, since (a) I have spent over forty years researching and playing traditional British music and (b)I am not a white racist. I think you musdt ber thinking of some other chap. I have never made any such suggestion, or even anything remotely like it. |
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14 Jun 09 - 06:04 PM (#2656403) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TheSnail Greg, a while back you said "If people want to run a white folk club, let them put that on the poster." If you have any evidence that any folk club is operating a "Whites Only" policy, please name them now. I am confident that they will be ostracised by the wider folk community and I hope that they will be boycotted by any professional musicians who have a modicum of self respect. Bryan Creer |
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14 Jun 09 - 06:38 PM (#2656423) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Pete Doherty? |
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14 Jun 09 - 06:40 PM (#2656426) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST Ruth Thanks for clarifying your position. I am not an apologist, still less a spokesperson for the BNP. What does concern me is the the UAF's militarisation of politics. Run by the SWP but financed by Labour, there are shades of Mugabe's Zimbabwe here. |
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14 Jun 09 - 06:46 PM (#2656428) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Royston Lizzie, another tenet that sees me well through life is "Never argue with a fool...other people eventually will have difficulty seeing which one is the fool." If you think that there are people who see roast beef and cricket as "racist" then you need to put down the Daily Mail and find a less harmful comic to read. Fred McCormick...do some research please and stop making the BNP look more credible. Their press officer uses "Dr. Phil Edwards" as a pseudonym. His real name is Stuart Russell and he runs a company that makes fireworks, which makes him an explosives expert (anyone else find this worrying?) He does not have a PhD, he is not a doctor. Just another vile lying racist fascist agitator that must be exposed as such. Hitler came to power by legal, democratic means. 'Nuff said. |
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14 Jun 09 - 06:50 PM (#2656429) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Dave the Gnome People, please take a step back. We should be fighting them! You don't need to book anyone different. Just point out that the music showcased at your club is, by it's very nature, multi-cultural and inclusive. Stop the bastards from taking it over by pointing out that by supporting traditional music they are in fact supporting multi-ethnicity (is there such a word?) and, hopefuly, they will drop it liek a hot potato. Cheers DeG |
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14 Jun 09 - 07:08 PM (#2656446) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lizzie Cornish 1 "Lizzie, another tenet that sees me well through life is "Never argue with a fool...other people eventually will have difficulty seeing which one is the fool." Absolutely. "If you think that there are people who see roast beef and cricket as "racist" then you need to put down the Daily Mail and find a less harmful comic to read." I was told that to love the sight of cricket being played on village greens was to dream of an English idyll that no longer exists and therefore, it showed that I was racist. What a complete load of poppycock. There was an excellent piece in the Daily Mail the other day, about the BNP, saying what absolute scum they are. Strange, for such a 'racist' paper. Still, being told that did at least shut 'The Daily Mail Reader' guest poster, up in the BNP thread. Folk Against Facism: Badges T Shirts Baseball Hats Tankards Things to stick on your guitar/mandolin/musical whatnot/morris dancer hat, clogs, bags, and/or various protruding body parts.... Posters (clever designs only) Book marks The dreaded Fridge Magnets Cuddly toys, so the children get the message early on Christmas cards Birthday cards Banners to put in/on your caravan/car/camel With an English flag on and with flags from all around the world CDs of anti-facist songs Poetry books Youtube videos FAF at the RAH ........ad infinitum |
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14 Jun 09 - 07:11 PM (#2656449) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Royston And while we're at it (worrying about the moral equivalence of the BNP and whether they should enjoy the same rights as other "democratic" groups) ponder on this. Before 7/7/2005, the only non-Irish terrorist act in the UK were two deadly explosions in London perpetrated by BNP member David Copeland. The largest seizure of explosive materials linked to terrorist intentions (including seizures related to Al Qaeda and IRA) was held by BNP members Robert Cottage and David Nelson. (Lancashire 2007) Last week another BNP member and white supremacist (Ian Davison, Co. Durham) was arrested and the nerve-agent Ricin was found at his home. The only reason the fascists haven't managed a terrorist atrocity is that they are much more fully infiltrated by the security services (thank God!). "DeG", the mindblowing thing is that there are fellow "folkers" (whom I have always regarded as more intelligent and free-thinking than average) that could even contemplate the BNP as having a shred of legitimacy. Shame on us!!!! |
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14 Jun 09 - 07:34 PM (#2656460) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Kampervan So, to precis the closing remarks of a TV series that backtracked all of the people's on earth to their origins:- 'Wherever we've ended up in the world, we're all African under the skin'. Bet the BNP didn't sponsor that one. Focus on the real goal - defeat the fascist bigots. |
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15 Jun 09 - 02:44 AM (#2656634) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Kampervan Damn, where did that stray apostrophe come from? It should have read .....peoples... |
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15 Jun 09 - 02:58 AM (#2656643) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Phil Edwards I'm Phil Edwards! No, really. That is actually my name. (I've even got a doctorate, although I hardly ever use the title.) Which made it particularly annoying for me when the BNP's former Press Officer decided to use that name as his pseudonym. (More here.) Fortunately he was on the wrong side of the recent spat within the party, and is no longer Press Officer; he may not even be a member. Either way, he's not getting his name - or rather my name - in the papers any longer, and good riddance. |
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15 Jun 09 - 03:09 AM (#2656647) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: fairplay Ruth Thanks for clarifying your position. I'm glad you've disassociated yourself from the paramilitary politics of UAF. Run by the SWP, but funded by Labour, it is disturbingly reminiscent of Mugabe's Veterans Association. |
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15 Jun 09 - 04:09 AM (#2656677) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick Phil, Sorry for the embarressment. Turns out Press Officer Phil Edwards' real name is Stuart Russell and his daughter is one Julie Russell. Again, I can't find her name on the membership list, but she is apparently a hobnobber with Jean Marie Le Pen. BTW., the BNP seems to shed recalcitrant members faster than a fox sheds fleas. Where on earth do they all go? I'm Phil Edwards! No, really. That is actually my name. (I've even got a doctorate, although I hardly ever use the title.) Which made it particularly annoying for me when the BNP's former Press Officer decided to use that name as his pseudonym. (More here.) Fortunately he was on the wrong side of the recent spat within the party, and is no longer Press Officer; he may not even be a member. Either way, he's not getting his name - or rather my name - in the papers any longer, and good riddance. |
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15 Jun 09 - 04:22 AM (#2656682) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick Royston: "Fred McCormick...do some research please and stop making the BNP look more credible. Their press officer uses "Dr. Phil Edwards" as a pseudonym. His real name is Stuart Russell and he runs a company that makes fireworks" Sorry if I wasn't up to speed with 'Phil Edwards' identity. Watching the BNP is like watching a pile of woodlice. You see one, then you see more. Then there's a whole festering mess of them. And they all look the same. "Hitler came to power by legal, democratic means." Not strictly true. It's true the nazis came to power in 1933 as the largest party, but not with an overall majority. And Hitler was made chancellor because the powersthatbe thought that would bring him into line. It didn't. Moreover, the only time the nazis acheived an overall majority was after Hitler's chancellorship, and after the nazis had slung all of their opponents in jail. |
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15 Jun 09 - 04:42 AM (#2656700) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: theleveller "Run by the SWP, but funded by Labour, it is disturbingly reminiscent of Mugabe's Veterans Association. " LOL! How did you come to dream up that little gem? Support for UAF comes from a wide range of unions such as the NUT, NASWT, UNITE, The University and College Union, and other respected organisations. (Hey, it's those schoolteachers you have to watch out for - they can be a pretty violent lot!!!) Right wing apologists like you who try to discredit anti-fascist organisations are exactly why I joined Folk Against Fascism. |
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15 Jun 09 - 05:01 AM (#2656709) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lox Fair play You have ignored the matter of "the Doc" What is your response? |
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15 Jun 09 - 05:10 AM (#2656717) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Dave Earl Vic Smith said:- "those involved spend more time and energy on nit-picking internecine rows than addressing the ghastly right-wing horrors that they oppose." I have to say that it looks to me as if Vic has summed it up nicely. We know what BNP is about and we know why FAF was set up. Can we please keep our discussions on topic. Dave |
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15 Jun 09 - 05:25 AM (#2656723) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Jack Campin Last week another BNP member and white supremacist (Ian Davison, Co. Durham) was arrested and the nerve-agent Ricin was found at his home. It's a haemagglutinin, not a nerve agent. The toxic syndrome it produces is a bit like meningitis or viper venom. Not particularly easy stuff to use, which is why the military never adopted it. I don't suppose we'll ever be told what the BNP intended to do with it. I can think of one possibility which I'm keeping to myself. |
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15 Jun 09 - 06:33 AM (#2656748) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TheSnail Dave Earl Can we please keep our discussions on topic. I suppose I have to put my hand up as one of the most argumentative people on this thread but I think I have been on topic. I see little point in engaging with the BNP trolls; you're never going to persuade them of anything and it only gives them a platform. "Brit Folk" is under threat from the BNP. As far as I am concerned, the best way of defending it is for as many people as possible who are not racists or fascists to sing it, play it, dance it or simply listen and watch. Folknacious's position that we should be embarrassed about British traditional music and that promoting it without sounding like the BNP manifesto was "Possible, maybe (just maybe) justifiable, but difficult." struck me as giving in without a fight. Greg is an excellent fellow whose particular thing is incorporating influences from diverse cultures into his music. I have heard the result and it is superb. (I have heard others try the same thing with rather lamentable results.) He seems intent on defending this position despite the fact that nobody is attacking it. Where I do take issue with him is when he says - To put the matter bluntly, this is not an area in which many English folkies take an interest. I think a practical way for folkies to express their anti-racism would be to be a little bit more inclusive at the level of the organisationm of their own venues. He seems to be suggesting that we should promote music we are not interested in purely to make a political statement. Sorry but no. My main motivation is the music. Within that context I will oppose racism. I am also concerned that he is throwing out unspecific accusations of racism which can only damage the image of folk. I still don't know what he means by "If people want to run a white folk club...". Bryan Creer |
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15 Jun 09 - 06:55 AM (#2656766) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Dave Earl Yes Bryan BUT. What we want is to stop the BNP usurping traditional Music/Song/Dance for their political purposes. What I think we need to do is carry on with our involvement in whatever our individual keenness is but be on watch for new supporters (?sponsors?)who could turn out to be the BNP in disguise. Who might later try to claim what you are doing is demonstrating the rightness of their policies. What I think the thread should be about is how our various Clubs/Festivals/Dance sides are going to present a "Common Front" to resist the intrusion of BNP. Thats certainly why I signed up to the Facebook thing. I just don't think that the toing and froing that I see in this thread is going anywhere near achieving the above objective. Dave |
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15 Jun 09 - 07:37 AM (#2656798) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TheSnail What would you have me do, Dave? Bryan |
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15 Jun 09 - 08:04 AM (#2656811) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Dave Earl Well Bryan I suppose what we all need to do is formulate a common approuch to the potential intrusion by BNP and also kick up a stink about the CDs they are selling through the Exacibur site (have the artists given their consent?) I'm sorry but I don't think the bickering that's going on is going to help. Dave |
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15 Jun 09 - 08:33 AM (#2656828) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TheSnail Well Bryan I suppose what we all need to do is formulate a common approuch to the potential intrusion by BNP I've offered my suggestion. I don't much like the others. and also kick up a stink about the CDs they are selling through the Exacibur site (have the artists given their consent?) As I pointed out to Folknacious it was me that first drew attention to that and, no, the artists have not given their consent. Bryan |
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15 Jun 09 - 08:45 AM (#2656836) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Well I am rather amused by the BNP's latest little spasm. They have now created on facebook (and used to post to the FaF group) a "Richard Bridge" identity using a reverse of Robin Loxley's picture overlaid with a BNP slogan. How silly do they look? |
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15 Jun 09 - 08:59 AM (#2656849) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Surreysinger at work Dave - re the CDs being sold through Excalibur - both Dame Vera Lynn's and the folk ones, it's already well established that the artists (on the whole) are only too well aware of the fact that their work is being sold through the BNP website. However, it has also been established that there is nothing they can do about it for copyright reasons, and their consent or otherwise to the sale of these CDs (which I believe are on sale elsewhere) is neither needed or legally required. There were press articles back in February about both Dame Vera Lynn and Phil Beer and Steve Knightley's problems in this area, and their concern over the situation (sadly I can't link to them while here at work, due to the antiquated software on this machine!!) |
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15 Jun 09 - 09:10 AM (#2656859) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Borchester Echo Snail said: it was me that first drew attention to blah blah blah Not it wasn't. It's been a fRoots discussion subject for many a year. Here's one: BNP move in on folk music which refers back specifically to: Neil Mackay in the Grauniad and Emma Hartley"s Torygraph blog. |
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15 Jun 09 - 09:32 AM (#2656876) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Dave Earl I think Bryan meant in this thread. But we should not be scoring points off each other. There are much wider issues that should have our attention. Dave |
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15 Jun 09 - 09:40 AM (#2656882) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Borchester Echo There are much wider issues that should have our attention Like reading the background in the links provided, for a start. For instance, the "English Country Music Band" (which is actually the core of a well-known ceilidh band) did a one-off recording session for which they were paid a standard fee. They weren't given the option of any rights to how their music was distributed and didn't know about its inclusion before being told about it. They can't do anything. One lesson is to read contracts very, very carefully. |
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15 Jun 09 - 09:43 AM (#2656885) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TheSnail The fact that the BNP were taking an interest in folk music has, indeed, been known for a long time. It was on a Mudcat thread on the subject that I posted my dsicovery of the Excalibur sales three days before the fRoots thread that Diane quotes was started. Neither of the articles she quotes make any reference to the sale of other peoples CDs through Excalibur. If someone had reported on it before, all well and good but my post did seem to set the ball rolling. Bryan Creer |
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15 Jun 09 - 09:45 AM (#2656889) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Neil D But it's that bit about black people never having produced a Mozart or a Dickens which showed up this alleged intellectual for the ethnocentric moron he really is. Drop a Mozart or a Dickens into the Serengeti or the rain forests of New Guinea and see how long they would survive. Any New Guinean child can name every single plant and animal in his environment. I know I can't. In case you ever have need to debate against the racist argument of Eurocentric superiority, read "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond. |
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15 Jun 09 - 09:56 AM (#2656897) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Dave Earl "One lesson is to read contracts very, very carefully." Yes it seems that BNP have got away with this because artists were perhaps not sufficiently aware of what they had permitted in their contracts. Dave |
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15 Jun 09 - 10:03 AM (#2656905) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Dave Earl "But it's that bit about black people never having produced a Mozart or a Dickens which showed up this alleged intellectual for the ethnocentric moron he really is." Yes I agree but that is not what FAF is about. We want to stop B.N.P. high jacking our art form for their political purposes. Dave |
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15 Jun 09 - 10:05 AM (#2656906) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Borchester Echo Snail is beginning to sound like the "discovery" of Lots Of Fans by a person from Sidmouth. The fRoots thread which mentions Excalibur (among other aspects) wasn't the first, only the most recent and I couldn't be arsed to flag up more. Do your own searching. There have been murmurings and mutterings about musical expropriation by the nasty right for decades. Nick Griffin's been lurking about at kRusby gigs for years, David Hannam's been doing skinhead barbecues tp promote his ditties and suspicious waxings have been on display at wifty-wafty heritage shops for a very long time, and widely complained about. Importantly, FaF will be a unified front to get something done. |
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15 Jun 09 - 10:05 AM (#2656908) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Your lawyer is your FRIIIEEEENNNNDDDD! And wasn't Beethoven black? |
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15 Jun 09 - 10:25 AM (#2656918) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TheSnail Not sure, but this chap was. |
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15 Jun 09 - 11:10 AM (#2656948) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "Ruth Thanks for clarifying your position. I'm glad you've disassociated yourself from the paramilitary politics of UAF. Run by the SWP, but funded by Labour, it is disturbingly reminiscent of Mugabe's Veterans Association" DMR, your anti socialist slip is showing sunshine. Anyone who disagrees with your VERY questionable position is considered too radical etc, etc...blah blah blah!, which is laughable when you consider some of the tactics of the BNP. |
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15 Jun 09 - 11:38 AM (#2656965) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Stringsinger One of my heroes is Louis Armstrong who changed the face of popular music in America, something Mozart could not have done. A case can be said that White People have been responsible for brutality and mass murder if you wanted to generalize as the BNP seems to do. Hitler and Stalin were both white. We can dismiss the arguments of the BNP easily and their trumped-up views of "sociobiology" which are grossly distorted. They don't understand that racial classifications are not given important emphasis by social biologists and that they are arbitrary. In fact, many anthropologists believe that "heterosis", the mixing of races produce a more resilient and healthy offspring than between two of the same race which might be closer to the degeneration found when close cousins marry. The important thing to remember here is that there are all kinds of misconceptions about race and its relationship to culture which entail different value systems. The idea that a Darwinian concept of "natural selection" in race-based cultures is scientifically specious. Darwin never implied anything of the kind. Even "survival of the fittest" is not a quote from Darwin but from Herbert Spencer, an English philosopher. The BNP seem to embrace Lamark in a view that cultural traits are inherited genetically and this has been disprovable by Mendel and other scientific discoveries. In short, BNP is full of crap. Frank Hamilton |
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15 Jun 09 - 12:03 PM (#2656977) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Andrew Wigglesworth theleveller "Run by the SWP, but funded by Labour, it is disturbingly reminiscent of Mugabe's Veterans Association. " LOL! How did you come to dream up that little gem? Support for UAF comes from a wide range of unions such as the NUT, NASWT, UNITE, The University and College Union, and other respected organisations. (Hey, it's those schoolteachers you have to watch out for - they can be a pretty violent lot!!!) Right wing apologists like you who try to discredit anti-fascist organisations are exactly why I joined Folk Against Fascism. -------------- "Fairplay" didn't dream up of that by him or herself, it is the routine propaganda line by the BNP. As such, "Fairplay" is playing the role of a fascist apologist. I've been concerned about the BNP's wish to encroach on what they call "indigenous British music" for some while. They don't seem to have put much serious work into it so far, but with the funds that will be flowing into their coffers from the European Parliamentary game we have to assume that all areas of their activity and propaganda will be increased. Any more news on a Folk Against Fascism website? I personally don't do Facebook or Myspace (even if Myspace have resolutely refused to delete an old profile). |
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15 Jun 09 - 12:49 PM (#2657008) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick Andrew Wigglesworth. "I've been concerned about the BNP's wish to encroach on what they call "indigenous British music" for some while. They don't seem to have put much serious work into it......." BNP MEPs have already pledged 10% of their annual salaries to the English Fair fund, which is something they've set up to help "local communities" celebrate St. Georges Day. If you look at their Activists Handbook (downloadable from the BNP website) it lists all kinds of activities which activists are supposed to engage in. They include instigating/helping with calendar customs, joining residents associations, starting community patrols, litter picks, and providing help for old people. They regard all these activities as "image building". I'd regard it as window dressing. In practice, though, the BNP don't seem to engage in any of these things and it's likely there aren't enough party activists at the moment to do anything but fulminate against Muslims. It's possible therefore, that if their membership starts to grow significantly, and once they've got their hands on this EU cash, they'll start to take on some of these other activities. That, I think is when they'll try and muscle in on the folk revival. If they do, send the bastards away with a collective flea in their ears. |
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15 Jun 09 - 01:18 PM (#2657037) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Andrew Wigglesworth Fred, are you disagreeing with me? No, that's not meant to be an "point scoring" comment since I think that you're expanding upon the point that I was making... but leaving off the "so far" from your quote of my comment completely changes it's context. |
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15 Jun 09 - 01:23 PM (#2657040) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Dave the Gnome And wasn't Beethoven black? He probably is now. I'll get my coat on the way out... DeG |
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15 Jun 09 - 04:14 PM (#2657157) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Trev Many dont object to the BNP because of its litterpicking activities; they are reviled because of their disgusting racism ,fascism and general thuggishness. They can try to window dress their policies all they like but they are still the same old nazi thugs,bigots and racists. If they had their way they would attempt to deport the non white population of this country and would plunge this country into a race war or apartheid style regime. Can you imagine BNP representatives as school governors or as NHS board members?It doesn't bear thinking about. The ones I bumped into recently were a disgraceful bunch.One wore his Enoch Powell Tshirt with pride beneath his jacket,another was filming anti fascists for the Redwatch site and a third had his bald head covered in swastika tattoos. What an awful shower! trev |
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15 Jun 09 - 05:14 PM (#2657207) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: SPB-Cooperator Trev, Don't put ideas into thier heads. it is bad enough that they have elected councillors and euro MPs |
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16 Jun 09 - 04:24 AM (#2657485) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pnpJU31HM0&feature=related. please watch this video and rate it 5 stars,it is a response to muslim demographics. |
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16 Jun 09 - 06:31 AM (#2657546) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Vic Smith Yes, please do follow Dick's link to that video..... One of the things that supporters of the British folk scene will have to do to make the entirely laudable Folk Against Fascism movement entirely credible is to make sure that its own house is in order. If you follow the subject of the discussion that Dick Miles and I have been having over on another Mudcat thread - Boring Folk Day - you will find that I think that we have some way to go in this. |
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16 Jun 09 - 07:44 AM (#2657591) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lox On the subject of Mozart etc ... The european musical tradition has focussed more on harmony . The African musical tradition focussed more on rhythm. There has never been anything in Europe to rival the complex syncopation and polyrhythms of Africa. I would love to take any BNP mozart fan to the Gambia and watch them try to conceptualize and learn the complexity of their music. Then we would travel down the west coast of Africa through Ghana and Nigeria on our way to South Africa to discover that the depth and variety of subsaharan african music is endless - and not something that Mozart ever conceived of. But being ignorant, "the doc" wouldn't have a clue about that. |
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16 Jun 09 - 08:07 AM (#2657604) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi I just read the following blog comments about people of color reading historical novels and plays and feeling nostalgic about the past: http://www.racialicious.com/2009/06/15/nostalgia-a-sport-for-the-privileged/#comments "@Wendi: "being privileged during one time may consist of completely different things than it does now and from say X country's perspective." Back in Mediterranean classical times, blond Germanic types were stereotyped as stupid, ferocious savages while dark-skinned "Ethiopians" were supposed to be clever, but overly civilized and effete. The idea was that the hotter your climate, the smarter you were, but the more cowardly. Hey, it makes about as much sense as most of our modern-day stereotypes." -Posted by atlasien ; Jun 2009 at 4:17 pm ¶ ** ..."Actually, it was BETTER to be black in England in the 17th Century than in the 18th or 19th. There are a number of accounts of African visitors to London who were important personages–diplomats, tradesmen, ambassadors–who were treated with a combination of exoticism and respect. The slave trade had not yet become as entrenched in the English economy as it would in later years. So the association of "black/African" with "inferior/slave" had not yet become an established way of thinking. Shakespeare's Othello offers a good "timestamp" of the moment; sure, some characters say racist and ugly things about him, but he has risen to a high position in the army, has the respect of the Senate, and Desdemona's love for him is unquestioned in the play. Even 30-40 years later, a character like Othello would have been impossible for an English playwright to conceive." -Posted by jp; 15 Jun 2009 at 5:56 pm ¶ -snip- I know very little about the way Ethiopian people or Germanic people were portrayed in Mediterranean classical times. And I hadn't thought about Shakespeare and his characterization of a high ranking Black man with an interracial marriage. And I read Othello so long ago that I can't remember the "racist and ugly things[that people in that play said] about him". I'm wondering how the BNP deals with this play. But they probably ignore anything that they can't use to their advantage. Is there some way that this information-particularly the part about Othello could be mentioned to the advantage of the goals of Folk Against Fascism or the (broader?) goals of whoever/whatever organizations are interested in fostering a society that is much less racist than England was in the 18th century, 19th century, 20th century, and than England is now in the 21st century? For starters I'm thinking about how discussions could held to consider how Black people and other People of Color (including people from India) have been considered and depicted in English historical documents, literature, and music and why we (People of Color) have been/are portrayed that way and then and now. |
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16 Jun 09 - 08:48 AM (#2657633) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TheSnail Vic Smith make sure that its own house is in order. All very well, Vic, but how do we decide what is acceptabe? According to Folknacious If a club says it specialises in folk and traditional music, but really means British or English folk and traditional music, and by that really means the music of white British or English people who have been resident in the UK for (let's say) more than 100 years, then explaining that in terms which don't run close to the BNP manifesto will be difficult. Possible, maybe (just maybe) justifiable, but difficult. which seems to imply that the very characteristics that define traditional music make it racist. OH MY GOD! Walter Pardon was WHITE! We mustn't sing his songs or they'll think we're BNP supporters! How far do we go? Is this acceptable? Bryan Creer (Colonel, Nrs, retired) |
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16 Jun 09 - 08:50 AM (#2657634) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TheSnail For "Nrs" read "Mrs". Messed up my own joke. It's the way you tell 'um. |
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16 Jun 09 - 09:15 AM (#2657651) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) With respect Snail, your posts on this thread are becoming increasingly unconstructive IMO. Perhaps those who enjoy indulging in the same old snippery, would consider taking it elsewhere? There are people on this thread who really are trying to be constructive. I for one am interested in hearing their contributions, rather than the usual petty bickering over who said what when and how. The music the BNP are targeting, is what we would collectively generally recognise (though the specific criteria which determine what 'it' is, might be debatable - THAT is a side issue) to be "indigenous (thus specifically *not* immigrant) folk music of the British Isles." For the purposes of the awareness raising campaign, the music 'under threat' is the music that we need to be discussing stratagies of dissociating from right-wing propaganda. The difficulty is in extricating English music from the dangers of association to agendas promoted by rascist groups. That is why we must be careful about the language we use. Because poorly expressed wording can be misconstrued - including *willfully* so. As indeed we see all the time on Mudcat... It is in that context, which I read Folknacious' quote. |
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16 Jun 09 - 09:22 AM (#2657656) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Andy Jackson Please keep to the subject. I read this thread several times a day and it is suffering from the usual mud drift. Let's stop the bickering and point scoring, yes you are all very clever, but I suspect too much time on your ands. FAF Andy |
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16 Jun 09 - 09:46 AM (#2657680) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman From: greg stephens - PM Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:12 PM Now, call me naive, but wouldn't it be a good thing at grass-roots level if folk clubs and festivals were a little more welcoming to people playing/singing the traditional folk music of a more diverse range of cultures? I have spent various chunks of my life recording the music of various immigrant/refugee/asylum seeker people in this country, because I love folk music basically. To put the matter bluntly, this is not an area in which many English folkies take an interest. I think a practical way for folkies to express their anti-racism would be to be a little bit more inclusive at the level of the organisationm of their own venues. The politics is the personal. Subject: RE: Boring Folk Day From: Captain Birdseye - PM Date: 16 Jun 09 - 07:25 AM here is one suggestion that I think would use music in a progressive way. the English government should subsidise English /Asian music clubs, which have a booking policy of equally shared TRADITIONAL OR CONTEMPORARY music,from English and Asian backgrounds. music can be a great way of breaking down barriers. Post - Top - Forum Home - Printer Friendly - Translate Subject: RE: Boring Folk Day From: GUEST,Silas - PM Date: 16 Jun 09 - 07:30 AM "here is one suggestion that I think would use music in a progressive way. the English government should subsidise English /Asian music clubs, which have a booking policy of equally shared TRADITIONAL OR CONTEMPORARY music,from English and Asian backgrounds. music can be a great way of breaking down barriers. " Completely bonkers. Are you being serious? |
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16 Jun 09 - 09:54 AM (#2657687) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: greg stephens Which bits are you quoting? Which bits are your own? Which bits are bonkers? It is rather difficult to tell. |
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16 Jun 09 - 09:55 AM (#2657688) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman YES, I am serious,and I think the government has a responsibilty,to help integration,and furthermore the English government,and also local arts councils have a responsibilty to have an international outlook. In my opinion, They should encourage folk promoters,with subsidies/grants,to encourage a booking policy of 50 per cent english traditional,and 50 percent traditional/contemporary asian music.that doesnot mean that I am against folkclubs who wish to have a different booking policy, the two should be able to coexist together. |
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16 Jun 09 - 09:57 AM (#2657690) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman greg , cant you read,there are three posts,the first is yours the second mine and the third, guest silas,all clearly headed. |
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16 Jun 09 - 09:59 AM (#2657692) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Silas Well captain, I'm not altogether certain that 'integration' is the right way to go. In fact, I think it is the wrong way to go. |
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16 Jun 09 - 10:06 AM (#2657700) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Cross-cultural (especially youth) folk musical projects - especially in cities with high levels of immigrant cultures, is a perfectly sound and sensible idea IMO. A space for kids to both learn about, exchange, and forge fusions of, their own different traditional musics. Can't see any problem with the suggestion myself. And while we all debate this stuff, in the spirit of err 'positivity', I hardly see just calling an idea 'bonkers' very useful.. |
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16 Jun 09 - 10:08 AM (#2657703) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Silas Well, bonkers is as bonkers does. |
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16 Jun 09 - 10:10 AM (#2657706) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Oops, now I'm somewhat misinterpreting things The Cap'n said! Eh oh! |
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16 Jun 09 - 10:15 AM (#2657707) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: greg stephens It would make Mudcat vastly easier to read, and make arguments less likely to go in the wrong direction, if it was easier to change bits of text into different colours, or bold or italic. Then it wouild clear when the Cap'n is quoting, and when he is writing as himself. Writing an email, you can change it instantly as you wish. Writing on Mudcat, you have to understand some weird computer stuff first,which many of us find difficult to master. |
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16 Jun 09 - 10:26 AM (#2657712) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick Andrew Wigglesworth. "Fred, are you disagreeing with me?" No. I'm just trying to explain that their present inactivity in folk music, and in other areas, probably stems from a lack of willing participants. Present BNP membership stands at around 13,000, of which only 250 are listed as activists, and they are the ones who are supposed to be litter picking, decorating old peoples houses etc., as well as running local branches. If, God forbid, the BNP ever becomes a mass party, that is when they'll start organising corporate activities along the lines promoted in the Acitists Handbook. Can't you just envisage it? BNP Youth camps, with healthy Aryan members sitting around camp fires, singing suitably doctored Aryan folk songs. BNP decoration teams. 'You can have your house painted any colour you want as long as it's white.' BNP litter picks. A couple of dozen blue eyed blonde haired Aryans with bin bags and mechanical grabbers singing the John Tyndall song and chanting Heil Griffin as they go. |
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16 Jun 09 - 10:44 AM (#2657719) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy well i go away for one day and i have to spend an hour just catching up!!! FRED, you ideas are scary but if the BNP get their way i don't think it would take thm long to get like that. as for 50/50 grants, i have heard somewhere that U.K festivals get more funding if they book foriegn artists or groups(not foreign in a bad way) i can't beleive i just had to quantify the word foreign. i think the only way to stop them infiltrating folk clubs and culture is to keep a freindly eye on strangers,especially if they happen to be recording the performance..it's a sad world when we have to be suspious of a new face. GREG, your' idea of making colours and text easier is welcomed, i have had it explained to me but still can't figure it out,even when i write it in differnet colours in a new page it won't transfer. you are not alone!!!! so how else do we fight without becoming preachy? i have no idea, but to know that there are so many people out there that feel the same as i do, makes me feel that now anything is possible. i haven't been on the FaF yet, does anyone know how the merch situation is going? i can't wait to get to do something possative instead of bitching about this problem. take care all jade x x |
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16 Jun 09 - 10:48 AM (#2657722) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi If I were from the UK, I don't know that I would be in agreement regarding a proposal that the English government provide grants to folk clubs that have a booking policy of "50 per cent english traditional,and 50 percent traditional/contemporary asian music. Once you start doing percentages, then "folk" (meaning "people") will start arguing about how the percentages were figured out-for instance, instead of 50/50 what if some people argue for 70/30 or 60/40? What would the percentages be based on? And, for the sake of helping me (and maybe others)correctly understand this line of the discussion, what is meant by the term "Asian" in the context of that suggestion? Does "Asian" used here mean the same thing as it does in the USA-people who are of Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, and/or other ancestries from that geographical area of the world? Or does "Asian" in that comment mean the same thing as "BME"-a term which means Black, Minority Ethnic (which I just learned from this thread or another recent Mudcat thread)? I hasten to say that the meaning of the term does not matter to me in the context of the suggestion which I can't support since I don't live in England/Great Britain/the United Kingdom. But I'm just wanting to make sure that I'm correctly interpreting what that referent means. |
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16 Jun 09 - 10:50 AM (#2657725) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TheSnail Crow Sister With respect Snail, your posts on this thread are becoming increasingly unconstructive IMO. Then, perhaps, I am not expressing myself very clearly. I am in (almost) complete agreement with your second and third paragraphs. The "almost" comes from the quote "indigenous (thus specifically *not* immigrant) folk music of the British Isles.". Nobody stands up in a folk club and says "This is from the singing of Walter Pardon. It is specifically not immigrant folk music." Folknacious's attitude strikes me as dangerously wrong headed. You say "That is why we must be careful about the language we use. Folknacious says that it's all but impossible to get it right without running close to the BNP manifesto. Which essentially means "Don't do it." The BNP will have no such inhibitions so, if we follow that policy, they will be the only ones singing British songs and playing British tunes. (Well, English anyway. I don't thing the Scots, Irish, Welsh, Cornish or Manx will give up their music so easily.) The only reason I quoted it again was because Vic seemed to be taking up the same idea. (It might help you to know that Vic and I have known each other for going on for forty years. He's not someone I'm going to snipe at.) As for me not being constructive, apart from Folknacious's spectacular progress from "If a club says it specialises in folk and traditional music" to ,"close to the BNP manifesto", nobody has come up with any examples of dodgy language or offered examples of how to do it properly. The solution I have offered is that as many people as possible who are demonstrably not racists and fascists should sing, play, dance, listen to and watch the music. Nobody has responded to that. If you have anything constructive to offer, I'll be glad to listen. Bryan Creer |
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16 Jun 09 - 10:55 AM (#2657728) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi I meant to say that besides what the percentages would be, I'm not sure that I would be supportive of the idea that folk clubs receive any grants to integrate their performance bookings unless those folk clubs are publicly supported and not private organizations. But, again, I say this knowing next to nothing about English folk clubs so maybe I shouldn't have posted anything about this line of the discussion. |
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16 Jun 09 - 11:01 AM (#2657735) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi "publicly supported" meaning "receiving government funding". The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that while I support the mission of the FaF, (being an American) I should stay out of this discussion mostly because there's too much about the cultures that I don't know and understand. I'm just speaking for me and not anyone else who is not from the UK. Because of that conclusion, from now on I'll be lurking and not posting to this thread. Best wishes, Azizi |
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16 Jun 09 - 11:09 AM (#2657740) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman as matter of fact,I am in favour of encouraging all traditional contemporary folk music as well as English. As the BNP hostilty seems primarily to be anti muslim,it would seem a good place to start,in an attempt to break down barriers,and build friendship. yes, I know some Asian people are not muslim,but there has to be a starting point. 50 /50 booking policy,50 per cent english , 50 per cent muslim choice,if two parties are to integrate,it has to be[IMO] a two way equal process,so if a club books a guest artist,40 weeks of the year,20 English performers 20 asian performers. However there is no reason,why a promoter should not apply,for grants and book Chinese and English performers,on a fifty/FIFTY per cent ratio.THE WHOLE OBJECT OF THE EXERCISE BEING EXPOSING TWO MUSIC CULTURES TO ONE ANOTHER. I am not against money being given to clubs that book purely English traditional music,or purely Chinese traditional music. |
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16 Jun 09 - 11:14 AM (#2657744) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) OK Bryan, sorry for becoming mildly intemperate - I find myself often frustrated with the arguments that I see on Mudcat - and feel that *here* is at least ONE place where folk enthusiasts could give that extra leeway to each other in support of a collectively endorsed cause. So just to clarify: "The music the BNP are targeting, is what we would collectively generally recognise (though the specific criteria which determine what 'it' is, might be debatable - THAT is a side issue) to be "indigenous (thus specifically *not* immigrant) folk music of the British Isles."" Of course no-one describes their musical taste by 'what it's not' (ie in this instance 'non immigrant folk music) And yet THAT is the specific reason it's been targeted by the BNP. Because to a Nationalists eyes (even if they hate music), it is 'pure and unadultarated'. It is in the eyes of a right-wing Nationalist, not valuable for what it IS as such, so much as for what it can be defined as NOT being. So, I mean that the threat is being very specifically directed AT traditional *indigenous* (thus by default white) music of Britain and England in particular, in contradistinction to 'British' folk musics belonging to immigrant cultures. Simply because it is what it is, it becomes a possible 'banner' for those who would wave it to promote ends which could damage it badly by association. Anyway, I'm sure we are all on the same side here. So I'm going to do my best to avoid tangling with contentious issues on this thread in future myself! ;-) |
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16 Jun 09 - 11:16 AM (#2657746) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: IanC Azizi Does "Asian" used here mean the same thing as it does in the USA-people who are of Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, and/or other ancestries from that geographical area of the world? Basically, yes ... though in Britain most of the people called "asian" will have originated from the Indian subcontinent as that's where most of our ties historically are. :-) |
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16 Jun 09 - 11:17 AM (#2657749) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Silas Well Captain, I still can't see why or how this would work, or even if I would want it to. With all due respect, i think the idea is nuts. There must be much better ways of spending tax payers money than this. No, bugger the respect, the idea is barking mad. |
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16 Jun 09 - 11:19 AM (#2657750) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: greg stephens Azizi: on a technical point, your query about British usage of the word Asian. It is confusing, as people here use the word in two incompatible ways. (1) People from the continent of Asia(or with that racial/cultural backlground). (2) People fron the Indian sub-continent (or with that racial/cultural background). |
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16 Jun 09 - 11:26 AM (#2657759) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy as crow sister says the BNP believe that english folk is exactly that, " pure and unadulterated".. the very idea!!! yes alot of our music comes from english writers and singers but people are influenced in many ways throught international media. they might write them as set in england but the idea may have come from anywhere. do they not think that anywhere else may have had factories, woods river banks, mills? who knows where these stories started off before being sung instead. take care all #jade x x |
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16 Jun 09 - 11:51 AM (#2657777) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: SPB-Cooperator I had come across common ballad themes running across Europe, for example a Czech ballad that follows the story of the Two Magicians. I would like to research how much folksolg is Bohemian in origin, and how much crossover their has been through Roma communities bu tthat I think should be another thread. The term pure and unadulterated is totally meaningless in respect of folksong as the 'folk process' is a process of adulteration as songs migrate from community to community, and at the point of collection we don't know how much adulteration has already taken place. |
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16 Jun 09 - 11:52 AM (#2657779) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Dave the Gnome Just a bit of light relief from the heavier side of the thread. My mate Dave and I went to a multi-cultural event in Salford a couple of years back. It was at Peel Park for those that know it - for those that do not it is a nice venue but also houses an art gallery and museum to give you an idea of the general 'feel'. It was very pleasent but, to be honest, quite dull. We all sat and sipped a glass of Chardonay while watching showcased acts from recent immigrant communities. We politely clapped and when it finished we wended our way over to the Crescent public house. Which is where the real integration started:-) After a few pints of very fine assorted real ales we were amidst the most amazing music session I had ever come across. It was definitely not just the beer either. We had a Bosnian guitarist, a Polish accordian player, a fiddler from somewhere I could not pronounce, a couple of Somali percusionists, an opera singer from Russia and beyond that it all gets a little vague. Living proof, if anyone needs it, that music is the true international language. I am preety sure there were no facists around:-) On the subject of funding for ethnic minority (do we still use that term?) performers. Why not indeed? If it helps us break those barriers and repels the invasion of the B(NP)ody snatchers then I am all for it. I am as sure as I can be that it will not be to the detriment of more traditional clubs. In fact, I am convinced that a few clubs showcasing other talents will be a good gateway for immigrants, recent and otherwise, to discover English folk as well as the other way round! Cheers DeG |
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16 Jun 09 - 11:59 AM (#2657793) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Folkiedave Another bit of light relief. I am quite proud of how Sheffield United were at the forefront of the camapign to Kick Racism out of Football, partly because of Arthur Wharton who is regarded as the first ever black professional player and he spent some of his career with the Blades. Anyway the "black bastard" cry came up from behind us at a game and a number of us shouted "It's the colour of the shirt" at the offender. Sheepishly he admitted he was referring to the referee! |
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16 Jun 09 - 12:04 PM (#2657797) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) Two of the downsides to public funding are, all the hoops you have to jump through AND all the bloody paperwork.... |
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16 Jun 09 - 12:09 PM (#2657800) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Dave the Gnome Two of the downsides to public funding are, all the hoops you have to jump through AND all the bloody paperwork.... I know exactly what you mean but the alternative is to give monety away to whoever asks first and/or loudest! I think we can afford a to learn few circus skills when we are asking for taxpayers money:-) DeG |
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16 Jun 09 - 12:17 PM (#2657808) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "to learn few circus skills when we are asking for taxpayers money:-)" Hoop jumping has become a speciality fgor me..not that I do it while performing....wait though, now that might be a good.....nah.. *LOL* |
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16 Jun 09 - 12:50 PM (#2657845) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman Silas ,please, explain why it is nuts,Enlighten us with your erudite Etymology. |
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16 Jun 09 - 01:06 PM (#2657859) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Silas Well, its bleedin' obvious really. If people want to go and see a trad english act, they will, if they want to see an authentic Asian folk act they will. You don't need to have a club put one act on one week and another act on the next week, cos guess whaty will happen? The people who like Trad english will go to the trad english session and the folk that like Asian stuff will go to the Asian session. Why on earth do you think that people will go to both sessions? Jeeze, its hard enough to get trad club members to go to Watersons concerts AND Kate Rusby sessions, they have very strong preferences. |
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16 Jun 09 - 01:35 PM (#2657886) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Dave the Gnome Why on earth do you think that people will go to both sessions? I would! Does that make me nuts as well? What about festivals? Seen the line up just announced for the Dent festival? Been to Fylde in tha last few years. Acts from all over the world and hundreds of people enjoying them all. Are they all bonkers? DeG |
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16 Jun 09 - 01:53 PM (#2657898) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman I would too. |
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16 Jun 09 - 01:53 PM (#2657900) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Scotsman Over The Border I don't think you can enforce integration, you can make it easier, but I'm not sure a booking policy at folk clubs is the way to go about it. BTW, if anyone can tell me what the "English government" mentioned earlier is, I'd be grateful. |
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16 Jun 09 - 02:16 PM (#2657919) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: brezhnev anyone got any suggestions for appropriate songs to sing at an FAF gig/rally? |
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16 Jun 09 - 03:09 PM (#2657956) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "Silas ,please, explain why it is nuts,Enlighten us with your erudite Etymology." "Well, its bleedin' obvious really!" Silas, to most people it is obvious, but to the few you have to explain things verryyyyy slowly and very carefully, using LOTS of pictures. |
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16 Jun 09 - 03:46 PM (#2657981) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: greg stephens Of course, Silas is entitled to his opinion, as I am entitled to my experience. On the occasions when I have been to folk clubs and pub sessions with my Zimbabwean friends who are singers, as far as I have observed people are very happy if the visitors sing a Zimbabwean folksong. Lovers of English traditional song have not walked out, neither have the Zimbabweans walked out when someone sang "Pleasant and Delightful". No compulsion, no fighting,no unpleasantness. The vast majority of people on the folk scene actually like this sort of thing, I am delighted to say. Though clearly not everybody, unfortunately. |
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16 Jun 09 - 03:59 PM (#2658002) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lox FAF can be an organization that exists to reclaim English folk from the BNP. And when it organizes a FAF night, it can feature English folk acts, but also include non English folk styles on the lineup. This welcomes 'other' styles to be involved in the English folk scene and to discover it for themselves, and it allows English folkies to witness other forms of folk too that might make the noght more interesting. It can also feature a solely english lineup. None of the above are incompatible. As long as the banner is held high and the message resonates - oh ... and the night is fun and the music is entertaining ... - then get busy doing it how you wanna do it. I will be on the look out for FAF nights and i will be recommending that promoters I know go out of their way to organize such nights. |
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16 Jun 09 - 04:28 PM (#2658019) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) All very noble, I'm sure. "It can also feature a solely english lineup" talk about playing right into the hands of the BNP, some people just ask for trouble. |
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16 Jun 09 - 04:33 PM (#2658025) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: greg stephens So, what does the BNP think about sea shanties?(Or what do the people think about them who just "prefer indigenous English music"?) England's most sucessful musical export? Or universally loved black folksongs? Or maybe just a fabulous mongrel mix of both? |
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16 Jun 09 - 05:03 PM (#2658042) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman [Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman - PM Date: 16 Jun 09 - 04:28 PM All very noble, I'm sure. "It can also feature a solely english lineup" talk about playing right into the hands of the BNP, some people just ask for trouble.] Rifleman,Really,I would say the opposite.I reckon you play into the hands of the BNP,by abandoning English Traditional music,and letting them take it over. Rifleman,how you doing with your Carter family repertoire? |
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16 Jun 09 - 05:26 PM (#2658058) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy why don't we alternate the acts at folk clubs? seems like a simple idea to me. does anyone know if foreign acts get more funding i would love to know. RIFLEMAN, when do we get the link for your youtube clips? i have absolutely no idea what i would be looking for otherwise. i have run out of steam now so will come back tommorrow. have a great day/ night all take care jade x x |
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16 Jun 09 - 05:57 PM (#2658067) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Vic Smith Go to http://action.hopenothate.org.uk/page/invite/notinmyname and sign the petition |
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16 Jun 09 - 06:37 PM (#2658092) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: treewind Rifleman: "It can also feature a solely english lineup" talk about playing right into the hands of the BNP Of course if a concert was organised by FAF or specifically to promote its aims, it would make far more sense and reinforce the anti-raccism message for it to have an international content. But if we all have to have mixed British and other music every time we have a folk club or concert for fear of being viewed as aligned with the BNP, the BNP have won that round. We can do what we bloody well like, and part of what FAF is there for, I hope, is to allow us to celebrate British folk music without being labelled racist by association. Anahata |
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16 Jun 09 - 07:41 PM (#2658130) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy we don't have to mix and match the musical styles but if somewhere wanted to that would be cool by me, i think the best way of doing that would be to alternate on the same night so you wouldn't get just one sort of listeners turning up. howevr that is entirely up to the club/festival organiser.i agree that the best way to fight the BNP would be to change NOTHING.i think we have a good mixture of people and most of them are reasonable and approachable(?) so why change something that works well? jade x x |
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16 Jun 09 - 07:47 PM (#2658136) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Tug the Cox Well done Greg Stephens. The whole idea of 'English' folk music is about as absurd as the idea of a true born English person. This 'fact a fiction' was exposed over 400 years ago. Despite some peoples' attempts to exclude 'irish ' music ( but include Breton and Eastern European)in their 'English Music' sessions, hundreds of traditional tunes appear in the repertoires of players and singers from many communities, having been largely spread by travelling people. Of course, having found a foothold in a local community the song/tune would have taken on the characteristics of the local players, and probably a localised title ( Rakes of Mallow/Rigs of Marlow) but to suggest , e.g Smash the Windows/Roaring Jelly, or Garryowen/Walk of the Twopenny Postaman, or Lass o'Dallogill as EITHER 'Realy' English or Irish is ignorant beyond comprehension. To do so you would have to set the clock at a certain date, like Sharp and co often did, blissfully unaware of tradition and evolution. The same can be said of the collectors who recorded 'traditional'musicians and attempted to ditinguish, in their repertoire, those tunes/songs which were traditional, and those that had come from 'sources' ( music hall, radio , sheet music etc).Jeez, they all started somewhere, some thought that if they knew WHEN and WHERE, the tune originated it wasn't traditional. sometimes called anon. Well, it is theoretically possible to discover the first edition of every song, does this mean that none of them are traditional? |
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16 Jun 09 - 08:00 PM (#2658141) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TheSnail Oh thank you, thank you, Anahata. I was beginning to feel I was alone. The BNP are trying to appropriate British music. Don't let them. |
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16 Jun 09 - 08:19 PM (#2658155) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace "We can do what we bloody well like, and part of what FAF is there for, I hope, is to allow us to celebrate British folk music without being labelled racist by association. Anahata" BRAVO! Do NOT ever back away from those racist bastards. I just finished reading--for time number 15 (or something like that)--Leon Uris' "QB VII". Scary how the 'good' Dr Kelno thought so much like the BNP. Bruce |
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16 Jun 09 - 09:07 PM (#2658200) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace Y'ain't alone, Snail. Not at all. |
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16 Jun 09 - 09:59 PM (#2658232) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy i don't think anyone was saying we should back down or have to justify why we do what we do. i think the idea was if we wanted to broaden our horizons how could we do it.. i think anyway. there is nothing wrong with how things are and i don't want it to change becuase we are scared of how it COULD be seen. if that was the case for everything, we wouldn't post here at all. the NOBLE BNP will not change my lifestyle in any way shape or form, except if they somehow make petrol even more expensive. i agree that i have felt the need to justify some of my remarks but that was so others who are only just reading this know where i am coming from,it suprised me that i felt the need, okay maybe i was having a paraniod moment, think of it in terms of when someone falls over and you laugh, but then feel abit guilty. i'm okay now just had a bit of a rant head on me. take care all jade x x |
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17 Jun 09 - 03:28 AM (#2658339) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: theleveller "The whole idea of 'English' folk music is about as absurd as the idea of a true born English person." Precisely. What I find worrying is that the BNP seem to be adopting a similar spurious, straight-jacketed and self-serving approach to folk music to that which Ewan MacColl invented to support a diametrically-opposed political perspective. Phrases like, "we should be pursuing some kind of national identity" and, "If we subject ourselves consciously or unconsciously to too much cultural acculturation, as the anthropologists call it, we'll finish with no folk culture at all. We'll finish with a kind of cosmopolitan, half-baked music, which doesn't satisfy the emotion of anybody." would be equally at home in a BNP manifesto as from MacColl. This sort of approach to folk music never has been and never will be acceptable to those of us who take a broader view of the genre, and it just comes back to bite us all on the arse. |
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17 Jun 09 - 03:40 AM (#2658347) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge I am sorry, but that is too much. FaFFing horse definitioners AGAIN. |
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17 Jun 09 - 04:08 AM (#2658357) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: treewind "The whole idea of 'English' folk music is about as absurd as the idea of a true born English person" I agree with most of that post. However I am also a "English Music" enthusiast and perpetrator of one of those "anything but Irish" sessions and I think I should explain why. It's true that you can't pin down the origins of some tunes or songs to one country or another, but there are recognisable current repertoires and styles of playing that are typically English, Irish, Scottish and even more regional than that. And there's also a balance or perception to be restored: many English people outside the folk scene don't think there is such a thing as English music at all. They hear a tune played on a fiddle or a penny whistle in a pub and assume it's Irish. I've had several conversations about that with onlookers at pub music sessions. Why do they attach a national label to it at all, and why not just call it folk or traditional music (like they would in Scotland)? The reason is because the whole concept is so unfamiliar that it's assumed to be foreign, and because Irish (or "Celtic" or Scottish) music has been better marketed) MacColl was dealing a similar and quite specific problem in his time. When I was a clueless kid I thought folk music was an American invention. UK folk singers were singing American songs (and in a fake American accent) and MacColl was just reminding them that we did have some indigenous music of our own and why shouldn't we include at least some of that in our repertoire? (English music has had some media recognition in the last 10 years, so I suppose I can be a bit more relaxed about things now. It's still what I enjoy playing and researching) Anahata |
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17 Jun 09 - 04:36 AM (#2658367) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Dave the Gnome What are people disagreeing about? Most of the posts on the thread have been suggesting that there is nothing at all wrong with celebrating, performing or listening to English folk music or any other folk music. The point is that it is not to the exclusion or detriment of anything; and other music should not be to the detriment of trad. English. Whether the two are mixed at one venue, one night, across seperate events or completely integrated is irrelevent. Facism is about forcing other people to share your views. Folk against Facism should be showing that we can do what we want. By staging trad. English events, 'foreign' events and mixed ones we can show that the restrictive views of the BNP are not welcome. Is everyone was agreed on that? DeG |
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17 Jun 09 - 04:56 AM (#2658373) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lox The point is this. If you do have other folk cultures on the bill it doesn't harm english folk in any way. It's just an option that you are free to choose or not depending on what you fancy. Likewise, if you don't have other folk cultures on the bill it doesn't follow that you have created perfect petri dish style condiitions for the BNP to infect and consume the event. The point is, people being free to put on whatever night they want and keeping the BNP out. In both cases a simple anti nazi point is easily made by denying ownership to them and keeping a lid firmly on their politics. Any FAF night is already making a political statement by simply occurring in the first place. The banner advertizes a celebration of music at which Nazi ideology is not welcome. |
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17 Jun 09 - 05:16 AM (#2658375) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lox By the way, Is there a Belfast wing of FAF? ... presumably doing Irish folk ... But maybe they'd like to invite some romanians along to do their thing too ... Here's why ... |
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17 Jun 09 - 05:46 AM (#2658390) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: theleveller "MacColl was dealing a similar and quite specific problem in his time. ... MacColl was just reminding them that we did have some indigenous music of our own and why shouldn't we include at least some of that in our repertoire?" I'd have to disagree with you there, Anahata, but I don't want to turn this into a discussion of the methods or motivations of MacColl (which has been discussed and written about ad infinitum). The point I'm making is that once you start appropriating the folk genre and imposing narrow and personal boundaries on it - especially for political reasons, you create a double-edged sword that you then put into the hands of people who may hold a totally opposite view to yours. What I don't want to see is a return to the 'policy clubs' that restricted the type of folk music they were prepared to accept. "FaFFing horse definitioners AGAIN." Richard, I have absolutely no idea what you mean by that. |
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17 Jun 09 - 05:48 AM (#2658391) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: ard mhacha Lox, This has been going on from the first eastern Europeans arrived in Belfast. Emigrants living in Loyalist enclaves of all large towns in the North have been the victims of UDA inspired youths, ChInese, Filipinos, Africans and some Irish Catholic residents have come under attack from these thugs. As reported in a local Sunday paper the BNP have long been associated with Loyalist gangs, neo-nazi groups were responsible for the outrage against the Romanian families in the latest Belfast episode. It is well know that Protestant areas will not accept anyone other than their co-religionists in their areas. |
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17 Jun 09 - 06:04 AM (#2658397) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: treewind "What I don't want to see is a return to the 'policy clubs' that restricted the type of folk music they were prepared to accept" I don't think they'll ever be quite like that again. Of course every club has a policy, whether written or not. But I know what you mean... Anahata |
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17 Jun 09 - 06:18 AM (#2658400) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lox Ard Mhacha, I hadn't wanted to jump to conclusions but I did suspect that BNP-UDA sympathies might have had a hand in it somewhere. Having said that though, lets not get complacent about us Micks either. Before Europe etc in the nineties, I was always able to claim that one of my reasons for being proud to be Irish was that we had never invaded anyone, never had slaves and were on the side of the underdog. How could we be racist with that kind of CV? Well ... looks like money corrupts ... Once the republic signed up to the EU and the money started rolling in, so the doors had to open to allow refugees and asylum seekers in, not to mention foreign labour who were attracted by the growing job market. Well, suddenly I started hearing aunties and uncles, who had all been on "our" side, going on about "them" bringing "their crime" and taking "our jobs" etc ... .... it was like watching a seventies British sitcom dubbed with Irish accents. Anyway, one of the subtler points in my above post is to remind people that FAF doesn't have to be a solely British enterprise and could just as easily benefit from growing simultaneously in Ireland, the USA etc. In which case the discussion about English folk might begin to seem less important. Though I do understand and acknowledge the point that in the UK there is a specific campaign by the BNP to target English folk so the context is slightly different. |
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17 Jun 09 - 06:21 AM (#2658403) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Chris Murray There was an item on the news this morning about racism in Ireland. |
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17 Jun 09 - 06:39 AM (#2658406) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: ard mhacha |
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17 Jun 09 - 07:02 AM (#2658424) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi Before Europe etc in the nineties, I was always able to claim that one of my reasons for being proud to be Irish was that we had never invaded anyone, never had slaves and were on the side of the underdog. -lox Yes, I know I said I wouldn't post to this thread anymore. But I have read some things about the subject about racism in Ireland. Here's one online article: http://www.rachelstavern.com/uncategorized/xenophobia-and-racism-in-ireland-affect-black-school-children.html Here's a quote from that article: ..."Ireland is facing some of the same problems as other European countries. Many Irish people do not accept the new immigrants, and this is especially true for Black immigrants, who come mostly from West African countries like Nigeria."... -snip- Also see this excerpt from the same article: [Regarding Black school children unable to find schools and thus-not purposely-attending all Black schools] ..."Part of the problem is that the Irish government allows schools to discriminate on the basis of religion, which ends up being a form of indirect institutional racism. About 98 percent of schools are run by the Roman Catholic Church, and the law permits them to discriminate on the basis of whether a prospective student has a certificate confirming they were baptized into the faith. Some of the African applicants were Muslim, members of evangelical Protestant denominations or of no religious creed. ** Also, lox, in order for this statement to be "more historically correct", you also have to exclude the racism attitudes and treatment that some Irish showed in the USA toward Black people in the 19th century during the Civil War and afterwards.. Here's the title of one book on the subject(which I haven't read): Clear The Confederate Way! The Iris Irish In The Army Of Northern Virginiaby Kelly J. O'Grady http://www.amazon.com/Clear-Confederate-Irish-Northern-Virginia/dp/1882810422 (I don't know if that "Iris Irish") is a typo of the title or not,but that's how its found on that page). Here's a review of that book which mentions titles of other books: "The first book of its kind to examine the role of Irish Soldiers in the Army of Northern Virginia Introduction by prominent Confederate historian Robert K. Krick Includes rare and unpublished photos of Irish participants Clear the Confederate Way! is the story of the Southern Irish who fought under Robert E. Lee. While most readers know about the Federal Irish Brigade, few appreciate the extent of the Irish contribution to the Southern war effort. More than a battle narrative, this ground-breaking book is a comprehensive exploration of the substantial Irish contribution to the Southern cause in battle, in Southern society, and in Confederate political circles. This well-written and exhaustively researched study. It is sure to interest both Civil War enthusiasts and many of todays forty million Irish Americans, especially at a time when public fascination with Irish culture and history grips the nation. Kelly J. OGrady is a graduate of the College of William and Mary and a National Park Service historian at the Fredericksburg and Spotsylvania National Military Park. Also see Irish Rebels, Confederate Tigers (1882810163) and My Life in the Irish Brigade (1882810074). " -snip- And, yes, I know that all USA Confederate soldiers and supporters of the USA Confederacy weren't racist-and that some USA Union soldiers and USA Union supporters were racist. |
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17 Jun 09 - 07:17 AM (#2658433) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Scotsman Over The Border "Anyway, one of the subtler points in my above post is to remind people that FAF doesn't have to be a solely British enterprise and could just as easily benefit from growing simultaneously in Ireland, the USA etc." Spot on, Lox. In fact I'd say that we are duty bound to act against Fascism and Racism where/when ever we encounter it. |
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17 Jun 09 - 07:23 AM (#2658440) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lox Azizi, "I was always able to claim that one of my reasons for being proud to be Irish ..." Should really have read "the Irish have often claimed to be on the side of the underdog" Generally this is true of most ordinary Irish folks who are able to empathise with the horrors of colonialism in other countries - things like bloody sunday, the "famine", the black and tans, Irish slaves in the carribbean etc parallel events perpetrated in other countries. However, this openly worn badge of honour wasn't really tested until the nineties in the Irish Republic and now that it has been it has ben shown to have a few rusty bits. I have faith in the Irish though and I believe that those who are getting used to having different looking faces around will mature and develop in a positive way. Maybe an Irish version of FAF could assist in such a healthy growth. |
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17 Jun 09 - 07:44 AM (#2658454) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer "In which case the discussion about English folk might begin to seem less important. Though I do understand and acknowledge the point that in the UK there is a specific campaign by the BNP to target English folk so the context is slightly different." Given that the whole idea is only just over a week old, I'm not really that enthusiastic about seeing it co-opted and transformed quite yet to fit a range of other agendas. The group was formed to raise awareness of a very specific issue. If others want to start groups with more general objectives, or even objectives more specific to their particular conditions, they are of course welcome to do so. We would support and stand in solidarity with those objectives and groups. But at this particular moment in time, the group exists for quite specific reasons and I hope that will remain the case at least until we've managed to get some work done. Being a monoculture does not insulate against racism. Some of the Irish people I have known are among the most overtly racist people I have ever met - and I'm specifically thinking of Northern Irish Catholics, but I've known southern Irish people who were also quite intolerant. And it's not just since the EU and the Celtic Tiger inspired migration into Ireland. I was well integrated into the Irish ex-pat community in my home town (in New Jersey) in the 80s, sharing an apartment with a couple of girls from Lisburn and Belfast. The Irish blokes I knew were appallingly racist towards the African American people in my town. When one of them got seven kinds of shit kicked out of him because he was overheard referring to a group of them as "monkeys", I couldn't really bring myself to sympathise with his plight. I remember doing my dissertation about community arts in Belfast about 10 years ago, and discussing with many people how "cultural diversity" there had a whole different meaning and context than in England - it really only referred to the two dominant communities. Sorting out the tensions between them took up so much time and so many resources that the authorities couldn't even begin to think about the racism which took place against the small, minority Chinese and Pakestani communities - but everyone knew that it happened. The problem is, it's easy to romanticise an underdog culture, and one which has been under threat. It's wonderful seeing people embracing their cultural uniqueness and defending it against past attempts to dissolve it, as certainly did happen to Ireland in the past. But I think something sometimes happens in the collective psyches of such cultures, in which identity becomes so bound up with a particular definition of nationality that even small changes to that definition are seen as a threat. The recent debates on Irish citizenship around the time of the citizenship referendum a few years ago centred not just on the alleged threat to societal infrastructure (healthcare, schools etc) posed by an influx of immigrants, but also on what it meant to be Irish. Could children of African or Pakistani parents, born on Irish soil, really have the right to be called Irish? Wasn't being Irish more than that - a cultural heritage, a racial distintion in itself? Was there a difference between citizenship and nationality? While the legislation subsequently enacted made the distinction between jus solis (soil-based) and jus sanguinis (blood-based) citizenship rights for a variety of legal an emigration reasons, there almost seemed to be a subtext of defining what being Irish actually means, and an attempt to enshrine that cultural definition in law before the indigenous culture could become too diluted by external influences. And in practice, what it means is that, because of my Irish grandparents, I could claim Irish citizenship and go and live there, but a child born on Irish soil, despite being granted autiomatic citizenship, could find themselves deported along with their parents. |
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17 Jun 09 - 07:49 AM (#2658458) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Dave the Gnome we had never invaded anyone, never had slaves and were on the side of the underdog. See Irish invasion of Scotland, How St Patrick was sold into slavery and the Irish six nations victory before you go down that road, Lox! Everyone has been at it at some time :-D Lets not get sidetracked by what has happened in the past. Rather we concentrate on how to evict these parasites from our folk clubs! Cheers DeG |
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17 Jun 09 - 08:10 AM (#2658470) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Mick Tems I've signed up for Folk Against Fascism and I'm very proud to be doing so. (Incidentally, it was the UDA, hard-line protestants and loyalists, who were responsible for a week of racist attacks and verbal abuse on 20 Romanian families in Belfast.) |
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17 Jun 09 - 08:36 AM (#2658484) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST This Irish-American crap grinds, although I have many US relations I wouldn`t be proud of a country responsible for the death of countless thousands. |
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17 Jun 09 - 08:47 AM (#2658488) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: ard mhacha This Irish-American crap grinds, although I have many US relations I wouldn`t be proud of a country responsible for the death of countless thousands. This is part of a Guardian article in January 2004, Not far from the red, white and blue paving stones, the Ku Klux Klan graffiti and the "Chinks out" notices scratched outside south Belfast Chinese takeaways, Hua Long Lin was at home watching television when a man burst in and smashed a brick into his face. His wife, also in the room, was eight months pregnant. The couple had moved into the terrace two weeks before. Neighbours expressed regret but one white family told a community worker they couldn't offer a Chinese family friendship in public or they would be "bricked" too. "It's like Nazi Germany," they explained. Northern Ireland, which is 99% white, is fast becoming the race-hate capital of Europe. It holds the UK's record for the highest rate of racist attacks: spitting and stoning in the street, human excrement on doorsteps, swastikas on walls, pipe bombs, arson, the ransacking of houses with baseball bats and crow bars, and white supremacist leaflets nailed to front doors. Over 200 incidents were reported to police in the past nine months, although many victims don't bother complaining any more. But in the past weeks, fear has deepened. Protestant working-class neighbourhoods are showing a pattern of orchestrated house attacks aimed at "ethnically cleansing" minority groups. It is happening in streets run by loyalist paramilitaries, where every Chinese takeaway owner already pays protection money and racists have plentiful access to guns. The spectre of Catholics being systematically burnt out of similar areas during the Troubles hangs in the air. So-called peace walls between Protestant and Catholic communities are graffitied with swastikas and signs that read "keep the streets white". Both local unionists and Sinn Féin warned this week that someone is likely to be killed or burned alive in their home if the campaign does not stop. But there are no signs of it abating. The Village in south Belfast is a run-down network of loyalist terraces where unemployment is high, union flags sag from lampposts and almost every family has a link to loyalist paramilitaries. In post-peace process Northern Ireland, communities like this are more segregated than ever - through choice. Last year, five student houses, home to mixed Protestants and Catholics, were attacked until they were vacated. The siege mentality against "outsiders" is rife. In the past eight weeks, pregnant Chinese women and new mothers have been forced out of terraces and over a dozen Chinese people have been attacked. The Chinese community, the largest ethnic minority in Northern Ireland, has been in Belfast since the 1960s, but there are rumours that a "quota" on new arrivals is being enforced. Last month, Ugandan and Romanian families were burned out. Many elderly Chinese people do not now leave their homes after 3pm. The best they can hope for is an egg or ice-cream cone thrown in their face or their shopping bags stolen. This week, in the shadow of a paramilitary mural, a six-foot plank was hurled through the front window of the home of a Pakistani woman who was eight months pregnant. The spot where she and her brother-in-law had eaten dinner 20 minutes before was sprayed with glass. They had moved into the house 12 hours earlier. This hatred is on-going anyone living here knows where the racialists live, a pity the police don`t respond with the same enthusiasm as they would in Nationalists areas. |
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17 Jun 09 - 08:54 AM (#2658490) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman Azizi. I live in County Cork Ireland. In my village,there two primary schools one is protestant one is catholic,there is a scondary school five miles away that is non denominational.IN 4 Neighbouring villages,there are four schools two catholic, two protestant,there are school buses laid on so that children can go to the schools of their choice,their is no discrimation against any religion,in my area,I can only talk from my own experience. my own experience refutes your claims. Snail,I support you one hundred percent,if you wish to run a folk club your way,with a booking policy that books and promotes traditional music from the Islands of Britain[england scotland wales ireland],you have every right to do so without being called racist. if an organiser wished to start a club in LEWES or anywhere,that booked solely norwegian or swedish traditional music,that would not be racist either. promoters have the right to promote what they like,what they do not have the right to do is to exclude members of the audience on race grounds. |
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17 Jun 09 - 09:33 AM (#2658509) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lox "what they do not have the right to do is to exclude members of the audience on race grounds." nor to allow performers to get away with victimizing members of their audience on race grounds or peddling racist ideas. |
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17 Jun 09 - 09:40 AM (#2658517) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Andrew Wigglesworth "what they do not have the right to do is to exclude members of the audience on race grounds." add also.. "what they do not have the right to do is to exclude performers on race grounds." |
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17 Jun 09 - 09:42 AM (#2658519) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,ifor There is an article in today's Morning Star about Folk Against Fascism and the attempt by the BNP to infiltrate folk music. IFOR |
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17 Jun 09 - 09:42 AM (#2658520) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TheSnail Captain Birdseye what they do not have the right to do is to exclude members of the audience on race grounds. Lox nor to allow performers to get away with victimizing members of their audience on race grounds or peddling racist ideas. Is there any suggestion that either of these things happen in British folk clubs? Bryan Creer |
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17 Jun 09 - 09:53 AM (#2658527) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge It is not true to say that the Irish have never taken slaves. Even the young man who would later be St Patrick and found Christianity and a building culture in Ireland was taken by Irish reivers from England and sold into slavery following the Roman withdrawal from England. At that time slavery was commonplace in Ireland. |
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17 Jun 09 - 09:57 AM (#2658530) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Andy Jackson No one else has mentioned them so I will. Would the Spinners be a suitable group to book? They embraced world music before we even knew what it was. FAF Andy |
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17 Jun 09 - 10:09 AM (#2658544) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick Miskin. You'd have a job booking the Spinners nowadays. However, if you try mentioning the word fascist to Tony Davis, I suggest you stand back rapidly. Accommodating towards people on the far right he is not. |
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17 Jun 09 - 10:16 AM (#2658552) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Steve Hunt The Spinners headlined the first big concert that I ever went to - The EFDSS Folk Festival at the Albert Hall in 1973. Great stuff! |
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17 Jun 09 - 10:41 AM (#2658574) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer "There is an article in today's Morning Star about Folk Against Fascism and the attempt by the BNP to infiltrate folk music." Blimey. We haven't even done anything yet! |
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17 Jun 09 - 11:13 AM (#2658594) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "Rifleman,how you doing with your Carter family repertoire?" It's going very well indeed, right along with selections from The Band, Fairport Convention, the odd Steeleye Span, Sandy Denny (we have included The Quiet Joys of Brother into the songbook, the song is, of course credited to both Richard Farina and Sandy Denny) , oh we shouldn't forget music from the VoP collection, Sam Larner. Lizzie Higgins..my oh my but the list goes on. There's been a delay in setting up the youtube channel, the sound quality isn'nt all it should be, but we're working on it (damn where's John Wood when you need him *LOL*) ""It can also feature a solely english lineup" talk about playing right into the hands of the BNP" I stand by what I,ve said about this. |
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17 Jun 09 - 11:29 AM (#2658608) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi Captain Birdseye, in your 17 Jun 09 - 08:54 AM post, you wrote that your own experiences regarding schools in your area refutes my claims. For the record, I'm not making any claims. I just reposted excerpts of an article that I found online. That said, I'm glad that your community's school are different than what is described in that article. I'm disheartened to read about the racism and anti-immigrationism (if that's a word) in Ireland. Yesterday I talked to my daughter who was thinking of saving for a trip to Europe. I told her that she may not want to travel to the UK now given what I've been reading on this and similar threads, and in that article I just quoted from. Or at the very least, I told her that she needs to be alert and aware about hate groups such as the BNP. What a shame. |
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17 Jun 09 - 11:37 AM (#2658616) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Working Radish An all-English lineup, singing all-English songs, in front of a Folk Against Fascism banner (if there was such a thing) - I think that would be a really powerful statement *against* the BNP's "interest" in folk music. Especially if not all of the English people involved were White. The last thing we want to do is say "Fascists play exclusively-English music, therefore anti-Fascists should play music from everywhere". English traditional music is my heritage, forsaken milkmaids and valiant sailors and all - it's my heritage and they're not having it. Or rather, it's *our* heritage - it belongs to the people of England, not to some bunch of Fascists. |
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17 Jun 09 - 11:48 AM (#2658622) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer Azizi, these groups exist all over Europe - in some countries they are far more poweerful than in Britain. Advising your daughter not to come here because of the hate groups is as alarmist as the Japanese government cancelling my daughter's school visit there because of swine flu (which they have done). Life is all about calculated risk. We talk about these things because they need to be talked about and exposed, but it is equally important to keep them in perspective. London, for example, is one of the most cosmopolitan cities she will ever have the chance to visit. |
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17 Jun 09 - 12:34 PM (#2658648) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy AZIZI, please don't scare you daughter into staying away from the U.K it is a beautiful and mostly tolerant country. in general we treat our visitors with respect, i think she will be okay, she will just have to take the same precautions here as you would anywhere else. if she does go to one of our festivals, she will find that on the whole we talk to anyone and everyone, she will be welcome. take care jade x x |
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17 Jun 09 - 12:36 PM (#2658649) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Phil Edwards What Ruth said. Racism is borderline illegal in this country - government bodies & publicly-funded institutions (like universities) are under a legal obligation to promote equality of opportunity for all ethnic groups. If you crossed the UK off your list on the grounds that organised racist groups exist here, you'd also have to cross off France, Germany, Italy, the USA, er... |
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17 Jun 09 - 12:54 PM (#2658662) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: greg stephens "An all-English lineup, singing all-English songs", proposes Working Radiush. So, OK in principle. In practise, would someone just care to draw up a list of all-English folk songs we could choose from? Who is going to decide? A special committee? Do we permit Irish origin songs, if well-acclimatised in England? Etc etc. I think anybody who has given any serious thought to this matter has recognised the impossibilty of defining a concept like "all-English" song: or at least in the context of traditional song it is impossible. "Popular in England", sure, but I think some people are looking for a more Englishy Englishness than that.A very elusive quality. So, if anyone can supply the list, I'm up for playing in the concert! |
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17 Jun 09 - 12:59 PM (#2658666) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi Okay. Thanks. I'm sure that I overreacted. I knew that I needed time away from thinking about all of this. It's personal to me in ways that may not be as intense for many other people posting to this thread. I should have listened to my spirit telling me to take a break from this subject for a while. I recognize that I'm lucky that I can take a break from thinking about racism. Other people living in the midst of things such as those Chinese immigrants in Ireland who were bricked (I didn't know what "bricked" meant until I read that article) whose story I read this morning aren't able to take such breaks. For those who don't have to be involved in this struggle because you aren't directly targeted by the BNP and other hate groups, please know that I thank you from the bottom of my heart-and the top of it too. I'm trying to stay upbeat but actually I'm teary eyed now. |
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17 Jun 09 - 01:09 PM (#2658678) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TheSnail greg stephens In practise, would someone just care to draw up a list of all-English folk songs we could choose from? I expect the BNP have already done that. We don't want them to sing ANY of those songs. Can we try and remember the point of this exercise? I like "well-acclimatised in England". As a friend of mine says, "We do play some Irish stuff but it's English by the time we've finished with it." And while I'm here, what DID you mean by "If people want to run a white folk club..."? Bryan Creer |
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17 Jun 09 - 01:19 PM (#2658686) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Borchester Echo They're Roma people, actually. Strange you should think they are Chinese, given the powerful influence the People's Republic had on the old Romanian regime. It also goes to illustrate just how long the shadow of the past is in Ireland where there is a long and sad history of harassment of their own travelling people (or Tinkers, as they are termed). There have always been those who will attack and cast blame on anyone a bit different from themselves for the ills and iniquities of society. Neo-facist groups are merely doing the work of the ruling class by stirring up the process of divide-and-rule through prejudice. The epitome of ignorance. ¡No pasarán! |
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17 Jun 09 - 01:33 PM (#2658698) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Vic Smith In both Ireland and in Romania, I have seen at first hand the appalling treatment and the social exclusion of their respective wandering classes, sects, races, castes, call them what you will. The Roma have moved away from Romania in large numbers to try to find a better life elsewhere, but don't seem to be getting much of a welcome anywhere. Yet who are the carriers of the traditional oral culture of both these countries and also the amongst the finest exponents of their singing and music? Well, funnily enough, it if the travellers and the Roma respectively. |
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17 Jun 09 - 02:10 PM (#2658727) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: foggers Azizi - I second what Ruth and jeddy have said. Our concerns on this thread are about a very specific minority whose political activity needs to be challenged and exposed for the racist bigotry it is. But they do NOT speak for the vast majority of people here in GB. Cities such as London have a rich multicultural identity and that can be a life changing experience - I hope your daughter does travel here and experience that. |
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17 Jun 09 - 02:14 PM (#2658732) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman funnily enough I have had racist abuse in Ireland,but two cases in 19 years,a miniscule proportion,the majority of people like the majority in England are decent, tolerant, pleasant people,who are prepared to live and let live. furthermore,they dont go about making racist smears. Rifleman,try standing by your Man/van,it makes more sense. |
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17 Jun 09 - 02:17 PM (#2658736) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Phil Edwards In practise, would someone just care to draw up a list of all-English folk songs we could choose from? Who is going to decide? In practice, anyone who wanted to decide would decide - and anyone who wanted to object to those people's decision could object to it. It's only in theory that there's any need to draw up a Definitive List of Definitively English songs - and since gigs don't happen in theory, I don't think it's a big problem. I think we're answering different questions. Your question is "should we, as anti-fascist folkies, exclude non-English songs on principle?" and obviously the answer to that is No. But mine is "should we, as anti-fascist folkies, try to include non-English songs on principle?" - and I think the answer to that is No too. |
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17 Jun 09 - 02:28 PM (#2658744) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: greg stephens Pip Radish: I am totally against including non-English songs, or non-English performers, if it is done "on principle". I am moderately in favour of including non-English songs, and non-English performers, because it is sociable and interesting and fun. I am also in favour of concentrating(some of the time) on music from a very narrow geographical range and cultural background: may I recommend the Boat Band's "A Trip to the Lakes" for an examplke of that, and the Boat Band's "Take Me Over the |Tide" and "Back Deck Blues" for an example of the other. |
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17 Jun 09 - 03:23 PM (#2658778) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "Rifleman,try standing by your Man/van,it makes more sense." My father says a person shouldn,t have a battle of wits with an unarmed man, so I won't |
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17 Jun 09 - 04:24 PM (#2658836) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) Belfast racists target Romanian migrants from ITN News More than 100 Romanians have been forced out of their homes in Belfast by racists. About 20 families were helped by police in the Lisburn Road area of the city and taken to a nearby church hall. They have since moved to a leisure centre that has been set up as a temporary shelter. Police, community representatives, politicians and officials from a range of statutory agencies are to attend an emergency meeting in the city to see what can be done for the families. The meeting at the Chinese Resource Centre on the city's Ormeau Road will discuss an action plan aimed at making the families feel safe to stay. But many of the families have now vowed to leave Northern Ireland for good. Prime Minister Gordon Brown joined condemnation of the attacks and said: "I hope the authorities are able to take all the action necessary to protect them." Police and community leaders had earlier condemned racism in the area which culminated in an attack on a rally in support of the east European migrants. Youths hurled bottles and made Nazi salutes at those taking part in the anti-racism rally. The men, women and children, including a five-day-old baby girl, first sought shelter in a house where they thought they would be safe. But the house was not big enough and a local church offered them the use of the church hall for as long as they need. Pastor Malcolm Morgan said the church was happy to help. "It is a sad indictment of our society, but hopefully we can show them a different side to Northern Ireland and a caring side to Northern Ireland," he said. A Police Service of Northern Ireland spokeswoman said: "Police in the south Belfast area assisted several organisations in the temporary relocation of a number of families following consultation with community representatives. "Families moved to a near-by church and they are being cared for by the appropriate agencies." Belfast Lord Mayor Naomi Long urged the south Belfast community to rally round their neighbours following the spate of racist attacks. One of the Romanians, a mother of two who is now sheltering at the Ozone centre, said the targeted families were still petrified. The woman said everyone was now adamant that they wanted to return to Romania. She said attacks had been intensifying over the last two weeks but culminated in the racist thugs breaking into her house and threatening her and her children. "We are OK, we are safe here now," she said in the leisure centre. "But we want to go home because right now we are not safe here in Northern Ireland. We want to go back home to Romania, everybody right now does." She said she wanted to leave Northern Ireland as soon as possible. "I want to go home because I have here two kids and I want my kids to be safe." |
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17 Jun 09 - 04:33 PM (#2658840) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: ard mhacha Rifleman see my postings up the Thread. |
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17 Jun 09 - 04:47 PM (#2658847) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) I was fully aware of your posting I personally don't have a problem with repeating an important piece of news. Enough said. |
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17 Jun 09 - 04:53 PM (#2658849) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy i can't beleive that so few people can make so much trouble. i am disgusted. it is such a shame that, for most of the decent people of northern ireland they can't stop this slur in their names. these poor people will always think of this time and blame the whole country. thankyou for bringing it to our attention, this could be us if we let the BNP have their way. btw greg, i love the "Englishy Englishness" that is the sort of langauge i understand..lol we all seem to be agreeing that booking any artist just to make a point is unecessary and would just point out the fact we are trying too hard to make the point, we are NOT racist. take care all jade x x |
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17 Jun 09 - 05:27 PM (#2658883) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,mg my gosh...history is presenting us with an opportunity right now. If you have an opportunity can you sing the wearing of the green? mg |
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17 Jun 09 - 05:32 PM (#2658887) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy i am jealous, you can change colours. whinge... i want to do that !! i just don't understand how to, if you explain it, it sounds complicated. jade x x lol |
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17 Jun 09 - 06:41 PM (#2658940) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer I took delivery of the first batch of 3000 stickers today, by the way. They will be available at Big Session this weekend. We have a meeting on Friday to decide how we're distributing the merch, so they should be available to buy very soon. |
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17 Jun 09 - 06:49 PM (#2658947) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Tug the Cox Treewind wrote I agree with most of that post. However I am also a "English Music" enthusiast and perpetrator of one of those "anything but Irish" sessions If you actually read the post with which you mainly agree, and accept that such terms as 'Irish' or 'English' ate largely meaningless, ( especially as what is now called 'English music' consists mainly of German and Danish Polkas (played on German instruments) that displaced English reels and Jigs. In London in the 50's, boarding houses would often display a sign saying,,,'No Dogs, No Blacks, No Irish'. Can you see a connection with 'Anything but irish' ? |
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17 Jun 09 - 06:57 PM (#2658952) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge FFS, please stop to think about the differences between the terms: - Romanians Romanies Roma romers Gipsies Travellers Tinkers Didiquoi (or Didikai) No, I wont be singing "the Wearing of the Green" - any more than I'd expect a Klezmer band to play an instrumental of "The Ash Grove" (Die Lindenbaum). Or than I'd expect a visiting German group to sing any number of WWI or WWII British Army songs, or a French visiting player to play "Swaggering Boney". Yes, I do think there is a point in my singing "English" "Folk" song, in principle. Because someone ought to. And I'm (as far as I know) English. But I will also sing (as you should know) other songs too. The "English" songs I sing do not belong to the lunatic right. The international and/or religious hostilities of which they (or some of them) speak are those of their respective times. They do not speak of setting person against person on the basis of colour. |
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18 Jun 09 - 02:47 AM (#2659168) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: SPB-Cooperator Is this what BMP mean by voluntary repatriation? |
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18 Jun 09 - 02:53 AM (#2659172) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: SPB-Cooperator typo BNP mean |
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18 Jun 09 - 03:00 AM (#2659175) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) No intention of being rude here - but as I've noticed a couple of times on this thread that on occasion, what I presume are American posters who may not know who they are (?), there have been mistaken 'soundalike' references to the BNP - such as BMP or BNC for e.g. Just to clarify, for those who may not be aware, BNP is shorthand for the "British National Party." See Wiki entry for BRITISH NATIONAL PARTY |
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18 Jun 09 - 03:01 AM (#2659177) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Bah - you got there before me! ;-) |
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18 Jun 09 - 03:07 AM (#2659178) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,tom bliss once again, please write to your mp if you feel that including trad arts etc in the school curriculum is good way of heading off the bnp (and a good thing anyway). this is now before the minister for schools and learning, and I could do with some back up. thanks |
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18 Jun 09 - 03:10 AM (#2659179) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Phil Edwards In London in the 50's, boarding houses would often display a sign saying,,,'No Dogs, No Blacks, No Irish'. Can you see a connection with 'Anything but irish' ? Not really. One meant that Irish people weren't welcome - and that there were only a few places where they were. The other means that Irish tunes aren't welcomed - and there are lots of places where they are. |
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18 Jun 09 - 03:14 AM (#2659180) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer "In London in the 50's, boarding houses would often display a sign saying,,,'No Dogs, No Blacks, No Irish'. Can you see a connection with 'Anything but irish' ?" No. The cultural contexts could not be more different. Unfortunately, the commercial success of Irish music and Plastic Paddy-style pubs cropping up everywhere in the 80s and 90s resulted in Irish music having a cultural dominance over English music - in England. As a result, many English people, as has been said, think that any music with a fiddle in it must be Irish. I think Anahata's response is not dissimilar to that of a lot of people interested in English music - they are simply trying to create for it a bit of breathing space. |
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18 Jun 09 - 04:57 AM (#2659213) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: theleveller "I took delivery of the first batch of 3000 stickers today, by the way" I've actually made some of my own using the logo on myspace and now have them in the front windows, in the caravan windows and in the car. They are a bit rough but do the trick - I wish I'd had some before the election as my house is directly opposite the polling station. |
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18 Jun 09 - 05:54 AM (#2659232) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Andy Jackson I just popped in to FAF on Myspace. When you have 10 minutes and a box of tissues handy go there scroll down to a video "Tamlyn retold". Very powerful!! FAF andy P.S. Why not distribute Stickers through Folk Clubs, several orgfanisers are already signed up? |
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18 Jun 09 - 05:55 AM (#2659233) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Andy Jackson Oops, I seem to have invented a new word "orgfanisers". In fact I quite like it, could it catch on? |
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18 Jun 09 - 06:01 AM (#2659234) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer Miskin Man: Lots of groups and individuals ave said they want merch, so we need an infrastructure for distribution which allows us to do this effectively, and also allows us to recoup the costs of making the merch so that we can make more. This could constitute trading. We're meeting tomorrow to discuss how best to handle it. Once we've got some sort of virtual marketplace, anyone, including folk club organisers, will be able to access it. |
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18 Jun 09 - 06:12 AM (#2659238) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Set up FAF Ltd as a company limited by guarantee. Try to get it registered as a charity - probably difficult as its objectives are political, but you could limit its purposes to educational and do the politicking through a sister company... you might get away with that. Create a subsidiary FAF Trading Ltd (it will register for VAT) that trades and covenants all its profits to FAF so it doesn't have to pay tax. |
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18 Jun 09 - 06:19 AM (#2659241) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Andy Jackson Just get them made, tell us how much you want and drop them in the post. Happens on Ebay every day. |
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18 Jun 09 - 06:27 AM (#2659245) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Jim McLean Folk against Polaris This album was actually written in 1960 and produced for Folkways in the USA by Pete Seeger. |
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18 Jun 09 - 06:28 AM (#2659247) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer I'm sure it does. But given that the group is already being targeted by fascists, I want to make sure we do everything properly. There will be people looking for opportunities to trip us up. Very useful, Richard. Is this how we get around paying VAT? It will be a completely non-profit organisation, and I wanted to make sure we weren't paying tax as if we were a commercial organisation. |
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18 Jun 09 - 06:36 AM (#2659249) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Banjiman Ruth/ Joan (I get confused!), We're keen to put on a gig at Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club under the FaF banner...... can we just go ahead and do this or do we need approval/ guidance etc from the organisation? Please can you keep us informed about Merch distribution as you get it sorted? Thanks Paul |
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18 Jun 09 - 07:21 AM (#2659271) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Tug the Cox ubject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer - PM Date: 18 Jun 09 - 03:14 AM "In London in the 50's, boarding houses would often display a sign saying,,,'No Dogs, No Blacks, No Irish'. Can you see a connection with 'Anything but irish' ?" No. Well there's a suprise. |
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18 Jun 09 - 07:51 AM (#2659288) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: theleveller "We're keen to put on a gig at Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club under the FaF banner......" Great idea, Paul. Count us in. |
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18 Jun 09 - 08:26 AM (#2659311) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lox Azizi, Something to bear in mind is that the two BNP MEP's were elected in Yorkshire and the North west. Map of results You can see from this map where the two MEP's were elected, butmore importantly you can get a perspective on how deep the rot has set in - and it hasn't set in that deep. There are only 2 reps out of 70 who are from the BNP so in perspective we still live in a safe free society. So why all the fuss? Because one Nazi in office is one too many and that spark must be starved of oxygen lest it burst into flame and burn our society down. Its a bit like dropping a cigarette in the woods - people probably do it every day and the woods don't burn down, but there is always the risk that it might catch - and when it does the results are catastrophic. So we are making a big noise while it is a speck because we care about our democracy and will not allow them into power, but on the other hand - if your daughter is sensible she will be less at risk of a racist assault than she will be of getting mugged. And that could probably happen where you are just as easily as here. And if that stopped us travelling we would all live and die in experiential poverty. |
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18 Jun 09 - 10:11 AM (#2659368) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer "Well there's a suprise. " Not really sure what that's meant to mean. As I mentioned up the thread, my heritage is half Irish. I'm the grandchild of immigrants on both sides, and I'm an immigrant myself. I have no innate prejudice against the Irish. But I don't see any material similarity between the two situations you describe, for the reasons I gave. Context is everything. Hi Paul, I've got this meeting tomorrow where I'm hoping that all of these issues can be discussed. I'm going straight to the Big Session from there, so if you can hold tight till Monday for an answer, it would be great. I don't think organisations like Love Music Hate Racism "control" the events that are held under their banner as such, but there ought to be some uniformity of message, and probably a bit of quality and stock control when it comes to producing and distributing merch. These are all issues we need to iron out round a table, so if you can hang tight till Monday, it would be great. Joan |
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18 Jun 09 - 10:12 AM (#2659369) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Stringsinger This BNP stuff is makes the case as to why folk music needs to be politicized. You can't separate folk music from politics any more than you can separate anyone from their mind. Frank |
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18 Jun 09 - 10:19 AM (#2659375) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lox "I don't think organisations like Love Music Hate Racism "control" the events that are held under their banner as such, but there ought to be some uniformity of message" It could be worth considering that at a Love Music Hate Racism event, like the old Anti Nazi League carnivals, its about using agreeable bands (most of them) to attract people to show solidarity against racism. The uniformity of message is the FAF manifesto and the bands get people along to listen. In the case of FAF you have the extra point of reclaiming english folk from the nazi's, but does there have to be a unity of message in terms of performance content? Is that even what you meant? |
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18 Jun 09 - 10:39 AM (#2659389) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer "In the case of FAF you have the extra point of reclaiming english folk from the nazi's" Well, that's pretty much what I meant. But as you'll note from this thread, the phrase Folk Against Fascism can be interpreted in myriad different ways...I think it's quite important that we maintain the prominence of that central message, and also a principle of non-violent engagement. Other than that, the world is really your popsicle stand as far as I'm concerned. |
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18 Jun 09 - 11:10 AM (#2659400) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "Is this what BNP mean by voluntary repatriation" "voluntary repatriation" read if you won't go on your own we'll make damned sure you DO go. |
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18 Jun 09 - 11:11 AM (#2659401) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Jack Blandiver This BNP stuff is makes the case as to why folk music needs to be politicized. You can't separate folk music from politics any more than you can separate anyone from their mind. Uniting against Fascism and Racism does not mean the politicisation of folk music; I know many right-of-centre good-hearted folkies who despise the BNP and all that they stand for but who feel equally affronted by the almost universal adoption of Folk by the Left. There are crucial exceptions of course - Peter Bellamy was one such; whatever his father's political allegiances might have been, one feels sure PB would have been as repulsed by the BNP as are our Tory voting non-folkie neighbours. It's interesting to read what Dick Gaughan has to say on BP's politics - see Here - and one would hope political tolerance cuts both ways in these troubled times. Opposing the BNP is one thing, disassociating folk music from Racism and Fascism is quite another. It is not a matter of politicisation though, on the contrary - it is a matter an all inclusive non-politicisation whereby individuals of any stripe can enjoy the music without being browbeaten by political opinion. |
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18 Jun 09 - 11:14 AM (#2659404) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) alot of audiences simply don't want politics mixed with their music, it's the audiences who're paying the performers fees. I'll abide by what the audience wants thanks. |
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18 Jun 09 - 12:10 PM (#2659428) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Jack Blandiver Here's that last post again with the HTML corrected: This BNP stuff is makes the case as to why folk music needs to be politicized. You can't separate folk music from politics any more than you can separate anyone from their mind. Uniting against Fascism and Racism does not mean the politicisation of folk music; I know many right-of-centre good-hearted folkies who despise the BNP and all that they stand for but who feel equally affronted by the almost universal adoption of Folk by the Left. There are crucial exceptions of course - Peter Bellamy was one such; whatever his father's political allegiances might have been, one feels sure PB would have been as repulsed by the BNP as are our Tory voting non-folkie neighbours. It's interesting to read what Dick Gaughan has to say on BP's politics - see Here - and one would hope such personal & political tolerance cuts both ways in troubled times such as these. Opposing the BNP is one thing, disassociating folk music from Racism and Fascism is quite another. It is not a matter of politicisation though, on the contrary - it is a matter an all inclusive non-politicisation whereby individuals of any stripe can enjoy the music without being browbeaten by political opinion. |
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18 Jun 09 - 12:36 PM (#2659454) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: ard mhacha For the last time on this Thread, the people responsible for the violence against the Romanians were Loyalists,UDA,Protestants, this is without any argument here in the north of Ireland. This has been going on from these people arrived and as for singing The Wearing of the Green, there is as much chance of these Loyalist thugs singing that, as to hear Paisley sing `God bless our Pope`. I live in a small street of 36 houses in the street are a number of houses occupied by, Ukranians in No2,Polish 3, Pakistani 8, Polish 10,Polish 15, Romanian 16,Polish 20, and Polish 31. The emigrants have had nothing but help from the locals, they would be astonished to read some of the ill-informed opinions on this Site. This wouldn`t happen in a Loyalist Protestant street, the town has a population of around 30,000, the emigrants are almost all living in Catholic Nationalist disricts, and this is the case in all of the towns in the north. Those Belfast Romanians should have been advised before they moved into that part of south Belfast, they are now moved to a Nationalist area for their own safety. So please check out your facts before accusing all of us in the north of Ireland. |
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18 Jun 09 - 12:48 PM (#2659464) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Jim Carroll "....whereby individuals of any stripe can enjoy the music without being browbeaten by political opinion. " Sorry, folk song has always contained its fair share of politics, be it Jacobite, anti-establishment, fight for better conditions, recognition of and opposition to class differences, struggles for national independance, pro-industrial action, support for and opposition to military activity (want a list of American Civil War songs - either side available) - right down to children's songs and election chants "Vote-vote-vote for....." whoever, or the more sophisticated "Harry was a Bolshie"). Perhaps you meant to say 'left political opinion'? As somebody has already said, if you want to avoid politics, you're in the wrong game. Try macrame (was going to say chess, but it don't come more political than that). Jim Carroll |
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18 Jun 09 - 01:08 PM (#2659478) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy ard mhacha, idon't think i have seen anyone say that it is the whole of northern ireland. i have said that those poor people will think of it as a country wide problem, but then if that had happened to you, you would probably think the same. this is a case of a few spoiling it for everyone. take care jade x x |
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18 Jun 09 - 01:20 PM (#2659490) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,mg As an Irish-American I find the term "Plastic Paddy" to be very offensive..way more offensive than what they could have come up with in 1870. I would ask that you at least put parentheses around it to distance yourself from an offensive term. mg |
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18 Jun 09 - 01:28 PM (#2659496) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) What's wrong with the term "Plastic Paddy Pubs"? We have plenty of tacky fake Irish theme pubs in the UK. And they have exactly *zero* to do with Irish culture. It just describes a type of 'commercial branding' which cashes in on the worst imaginable tacky pastiche of Irishness. |
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18 Jun 09 - 01:31 PM (#2659502) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Borchester Echo It's the Plastic Paddy pubs with green beer, fake shamrock and fields upon fields of sodding Athenry that are deeply offensive and the ultimate dumbing down of all things Irish, especially the culture. No-one mentioned anything about Hibernian citizens being manufactured from said polymer. |
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18 Jun 09 - 01:36 PM (#2659507) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer I'm not quite sure why you find Plastic Paddy so offensive. It refers to anything that is excessively commercialised or completely false, such as the chains of Irish-themed pubs which sprung up in England about 10 years ago. If you really think that this is more offensive than the Irish stereotypes that were around in the 1870s, I think you might be ever so slightly over-sensitive. |
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18 Jun 09 - 02:02 PM (#2659527) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,jock Lox posted " ............Something to bear in mind is that the two BNP MEP's were elected in Yorkshire and the North west .." For the benefit of our friends from outside the UK, could I point out that Lox was referring to the North West region of England, not Britain, although he has only mentioned Britain in his postings. A bit confusing for our foreign cousins. |
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18 Jun 09 - 02:45 PM (#2659568) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Jack Blandiver As somebody has already said, if you want to avoid politics, you're in the wrong game. I don't think so, Jim; out of a personal repertoire of some 300 odd Traditional English Language Folk Songs not a single one of them is in any way shape or form party political. I might grin as I intone the wishful jingoism of Bellamy's setting of Kipling's The Land despite the erroneous left-wing gloss put on it by certain singers; as ever, I fear, context is all. Fact is, I know just as many Right-Wing Traddies as I do Left; Peter Bellamy was a Right-Wing Traddie, and he was quite possibly the only world-class Genius the Folk Revival ever produced. As for myself, I choose not to get involved one way or the other; we all have our opinions (such as mine about the genius of Peter Bellamy) and we all are all welcome to them. The defeat of Racism & Fascism is something very different and won't be achieved by the factionalism & in-fighting that, as already touched upon, not only typifies the left, but also accounts for its ultimate impotence. Racism & Fascism will not be defeated by singing Folk Songs (much less protest songs) but if by showing solidarity against the BNP Folkies & Traddies - be they Left, Right, Centre or Whatever - can remove this unwelcome stain from our precious musical & cultural heritage then that only ever be a good thing. If that's what Folk against Fascism is about, then I'm happy to be part of it. |
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18 Jun 09 - 02:59 PM (#2659580) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Jim Carroll SO'P Oh, come on - you didn't mention 'party' political. Even so, our repertoires are full of political songs, either explicitly supporting a specific political cause, or by implication, attacking the establishment. You appear to be suggesting the suspension of political opinion until the fight against fascism is won - life ain't like that. Worthy causes are like number 9 buses, you win one and along comes another - Mosely, Second front, Korea, Cuba, CND, Viet Nam, Greece, Chile, the miners strike, Turkey, Iran.......... Folk song records our history - and that includes political and social struggle. "It refers to anything that is excessively commercialised or completely false" It also refers to people who adopt an 'Oirish' accent and supposed 'T'ick' mannerisms, just as offensive and racist as the term itself. Jim Carroll |
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18 Jun 09 - 03:20 PM (#2659596) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) It might be worthwhile to recognise the difference between specific 'political songs' or particular 'bodies of political songs' within the English folk tradition as a whole, and the inappropriate *politicising of songs* and indeed the *politicising of* the English folk tradition as a whole. I fear I'm not expressing this well. But while there may have always been political songs which existed in context to their times, it is the retrospective politicising of the English tradition as a whole, which I think needs to be fully avoided. I also think that is precisely the purpose of the current campaign with respect to the BNP. |
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18 Jun 09 - 03:31 PM (#2659610) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) SO'P, don't waste your time, Jim Carroll and his sort simply aren't worth it (I find them to be just as offensive as any racist), they only see what they want to see and expect everyone else to see the same thing and in the same way We all do what we can and do it to the best of our abilities and that's the best we can hope for |
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18 Jun 09 - 04:36 PM (#2659681) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: theleveller "As somebody has already said, if you want to avoid politics, you're in the wrong game." Couldn't agree more, there, Jim. Take away the politcs from folk music and you've bugger all left. "Jim Carroll and his sort simply aren't worth it." And what sort would that be? Presumably the sort who aren't prepared to take your gobshite. Well, I'm one of that sort. Sorry to offend your right wing sensibilities (actually, no, I'm not)but, as Jim says, you're in the wrong place here - what you want to see is your own navel and, quite frankly, for the rest of us, it ain't a pretty sight. |
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18 Jun 09 - 04:44 PM (#2659691) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman [ SO'P, don't waste your time, Jim Carroll and his sort simply aren't worth it (I find them to be just as offensive as any racist),]QUOTE Rifleman. so now someone[ is this MIKE HOCKENHULL ?] is saying Jim Carroll is as offensive as any racist [which equals THE BNP]. I find that very offensive. |
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18 Jun 09 - 04:48 PM (#2659699) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Banjiman Ruth/ Joan, No probs I'll wait until Monday. Just let me know how the land lies. Thanks Paul |
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18 Jun 09 - 04:48 PM (#2659701) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "Sorry to offend your right wing sensibilities" *LOL I was waiting for that; what took you so long...navel gazing were you? *LOL* I've fought racism all my life, and not because I have a choice, being a non white immigrant, I don't, so kindly spare me your white middle class patronising I,m neither right nor left, both offend me equally.. You very likely don't sing the ballads. |
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18 Jun 09 - 05:16 PM (#2659730) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: curmudgeon Being a Yank with lots of friends across the pond, I've been following this thread as an education. But please put me down as one of Jim Carroll's "sort' - Tom Hall |
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18 Jun 09 - 06:04 PM (#2659777) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Stringsinger I enjoy Jim Carrol's posts and I think he knows a lot about what is important in folk music. Part of what will defeat the racism of the BNP is the in-depth knowledge and interest in traditional music of all kinds. The old style ballad singing is an antidote to those who attempt to use folk music as a kind of phony nationalism. The power of that music defies those who would claim it as a pretext for jingoism. I think art can transcend partisan politics but with the idea that the expression of art whenever it is made has to be political. It affects the social order. I used to be one who thought that a song could not change a view or belief. I'm not so sure anymore about that. Songs are very powerful statements that can transform society. When I hear the old ballads, I am moved and transformed into thinking that the human condition is variable and adaptable. One of the powers of folk music is that it is historically adaptable to changing times. The iconographic themes of the old songs limn the mores of past times as stories and as Joseph Campbell has pointed out, humanity needs myths to teach us to appreciate our lives. This is why traditional ballads will always be with us. Frank Hamilton |
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18 Jun 09 - 07:41 PM (#2659858) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Jim Carroll "I think art can transcend partisan politics" This says it all really. Whatever our individual political beliefs may be, we usually manage to come together and enjoy our music. This does not mean we put our beliefs on hold, we simply don't let them get in the way. As a couple of Brits, Pat and I visited this part of Ireland at least once a year, often twice, for over thirty years - this included throughout the troubles. I found it incredibly moving to walk down the street in Miltown Malbay where many of the houses were bedecked with black flags mourning the deaths of the hunger strikers in the North, and go into a bar session made up of Catholics, Protestants, atheists like ourselves.... whatever, and be greeted as friends. We never attempted to hide who we were or what we believed; we didn't have to - music was a wonderful coming together. As I said, politics, general or specific are a vital part of our tradition and the repertoire would be very much impoverished if it became a no-go area. Where do you stop with not 'offending' people? We've already lost chunks of our repertoire because of some people being (IMO) oversensitive about (percieved) sexist songs. No more whaling songs, the hunting repertoire, Irish nationalist songs, the wonderful erotic songs, the jingoist pieces praising 'Brave Nelson' - it's a slippery slope to anodynism (is that a word?) folks. There are, I believe, lines over which you don't step, but personally I have seldom seen singers come anywhere near it in the 40-odd years I've been involved. Let's leave it to the singers before we start reaching for the blue-pencil. Incidentally, it is largely down to the left that we have access to most of our music - Lloyd, MacColl, Lomax (even Bobby D was considered a 'pinko' once upon a time). MacColl's best songs, some of the best the revival produced, IMO again, came directly from his political beliefs. Topic Records was started by the left wing (largely Communist) Workers Music Association. Fraternally yours, Jim Carroll |
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18 Jun 09 - 08:07 PM (#2659880) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy jim, i agree that people can take take things too far.. flipant example, we are or were into animal rights and someone started to sing dog in a microwave, some people thought that we might get upset over this, the truth is it's one of the funniest song i have ever heard. the same as songs about fox hunting and whaling, if we got upset about every song that wouldn't fit into todays society then we would have very little to sing, although it would take out the "i don't know the words " problem. lol so maybe it's an option!!?? old folk songs are not about the people today they are reminding us of a different time with different values. we should never lose sight of where we as a nation come from. how can we improve our future without knowing the mistakes made in the past? i don't see how we can put some of our political differences aside though,when you know that the person you are singing with, wishes to destroy all you hold dear, i think some differences are just too big to ignored and swept aside by singing together. although i think music brings people together and creates , if only for the evening a sense of family and belonging. much like i feel coming on here, we may argue amongst ourselves but when an outsider comes on and starts attacking people we stick together, dmr? of course anyone is welcome. but it is how they are recieved that makes the difference. thankyou for accepting me and on the whole making me welcome, i know i have been accepted when people start taking the piss!!! take care all and have a wonderful night jade x x |
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18 Jun 09 - 08:27 PM (#2659894) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Tug the Cox 'm not quite sure why you find Plastic Paddy so offensive. A not bad oufit in Exmouth, two of whom are irish, call themselves the 'Plastic Pady's' ( sic), because they thought it represented the pop Irish stuff they do. |
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18 Jun 09 - 09:16 PM (#2659914) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lox Depends who says it and their tone. Identity is important and if somebody questions your identity based on false criteria it can be offensive. |
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19 Jun 09 - 03:07 AM (#2660000) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Jim Carroll Thanks for that Jade - as far as I'm concerned, friendly banter oils the wheels of the world. During the 'troubles' here there was much hatred and resentment, but it was reserved for those really responsible - the politicians and the fanatics - long may that continue to be so. Jim Carroll |
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19 Jun 09 - 03:20 AM (#2660003) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: theleveller "so kindly spare me your white middle class patronising" Hmmmm....afraid you'd have a bit of difficulty squeezing me into that box. "You very likely don't sing the ballads." On the other hand, I very likely do. A glance into Christopher Hill's 'Liberty Against the Law', especially the chapter on the Robin Hood ballads, may enlighten your ignorance. |
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19 Jun 09 - 03:50 AM (#2660010) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer "Identity is important and if somebody questions your identity based on false criteria it can be offensive." My last word on this, because frankly I think it's quite daft. Plastic Paddy refers to a false construct of Irishness. I first heard it used by Irish people themselves, referring to commercialised attempts to co-opt their culture. |
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19 Jun 09 - 04:19 AM (#2660017) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: melodeonboy Well said, Ruth. Common sense really! |
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19 Jun 09 - 04:21 AM (#2660022) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Peter Laban My last word on this, because frankly I think it's quite daft. Plastic Paddy refers to a false construct of Irishness. I first heard it used by Irish people themselves, referring to commercialised attempts to co-opt their culture. In which sense it is used in Ireland to describe Oirish Americans. |
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19 Jun 09 - 04:55 AM (#2660028) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lox Ruth, you are right. That is true. It is also true that it is used as a term of abuse. In circumstances where your definition appklies, you are right, it isn't offensive. In circumstances that have witnessed, it is. This isn't an argument, more of a jigsaw. You aren't wrong and I'm not contesting your observation, I am adding another piece of the picture that you may be unaware of. |
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19 Jun 09 - 05:32 AM (#2660042) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lox I've just thought this issue through again on the plastic paddy thread below the line and I've changed my miind. I think the term is offensive. For my reasons see the other thread. |
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19 Jun 09 - 10:14 AM (#2660178) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Tug the Cox And is some folk self describe themselves as plastic Paddies, who is being offended? The meaning is quite clear, someone who adopts a commercialised irish personna ( like waiters, barmaids and entertainers in Irish theme pubs). If it is lucrative, the perpetrator is honest, and actually entertains audiences who freely go to be entertained, knowing that the musician is about as Irish as yorkshire pudding, what kind of puritan prodnose would wish to be 'offeneded'. |
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19 Jun 09 - 11:14 AM (#2660214) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "On the other hand, I very likely do. A glance into Christopher Hill's 'Liberty Against the Law', especially the chapter on the Robin Hood ballads, may enlighten your ignorance" Sorry I,m really not THAT interested in what you sing or don't sing,mor what you read or don,t read, my remark was one of flippancy more than anything. Currently listening to Highway 61 Revisited, Bob Dylan, specifically Desolation Row, very appropriate indeed. |
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19 Jun 09 - 11:16 AM (#2660216) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy i find dylan really hard to understand, i love his songs.. just sung by someone else lol jade x x |
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19 Jun 09 - 11:35 AM (#2660232) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) Agreed, The Byrds, Fairport Convention and Manfred Mann are the top interpreters of Dylan in my opinion. Give a listen, particularly, to Fairport's version of Percy's Song from their Unhalfbricking recording. The vocals of Sandy Denny with Ian Matthews guesting are supburb. |
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19 Jun 09 - 11:43 AM (#2660235) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Phil Edwards Give a listen, particularly, to Fairport's version of Percy's Song I tried, but I couldn't sit through it - the sound's just too sweet. But Dylan's version nails me to the spot every time, all seven minutes of it. De gustibus eh? |
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19 Jun 09 - 11:54 AM (#2660239) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: theleveller "Agreed, The Byrds, Fairport Convention and Manfred Mann are the top interpreters of Dylan in my opinion. Give a listen, particularly, to Fairport's version of Percy's Song from their Unhalfbricking recording. The vocals of Sandy Denny with Ian Matthews guesting are supburb. " Frankly, I'm not THAT interested in what you listen to. Your persistent use of the comma instead of the apostrophe, however, I find very intersting. |
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19 Jun 09 - 11:58 AM (#2660243) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) An interesting interpretation of Dylan, which just occurred to me, is the Julie Driscoll/Brian Auger Trnity version of This Wheels On Fire, The Band do a fantastic live version of this as well (there are videos of both versions on Youtube). |
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19 Jun 09 - 12:00 PM (#2660246) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "Your persistent use of the comma instead of the apostrophe, however, I find very intersting." my problem not yours, sunshine... *LOL* |
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19 Jun 09 - 12:07 PM (#2660251) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Silas "I find very intersting." I too find this intersting!" Unless you are absoloutly brilliant at it, I'd leave comments about grammar, spelling and typing out of it! |
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19 Jun 09 - 12:26 PM (#2660266) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) Silas, I missed THAT, thanks for pointing it out. *LOL* Actually the keyboard I've taken to using lately (out of neccesity I might add) is a French language rather than an English language one, some of the characters are in a different postion, still getting used to it. "I find very intersting." let he or she who is without sin cast the first stone....*LOL* |
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19 Jun 09 - 01:11 PM (#2660294) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Come along now folkies, no squabbles needed here! And TheLeveller - why now, surely you're too savvy to need to use details over grammar as ammo to quash an online quibble, innit? |
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19 Jun 09 - 01:40 PM (#2660317) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Shimrod Just found this further up the thread: "Peter Bellamy was a Right-Wing Traddie, and he was quite possibly the only world-class Genius the Folk Revival ever produced." Now there's a debatable statement if I ever read one! The 'only' world-class Genius? I assume this means that you liked Peter Bellamy, SO'P? |
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19 Jun 09 - 01:42 PM (#2660320) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy i get the importance of decent grammar,but surely what is more important is getting your meaning across, spelling mistakes.mmmm.. not me!!!! lol as long as it makes some sort of sense, then, hey go for it! i think most spelling mistakes are a product of being passionate and trying to type things as you hink them (t). take care all jade x x |
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19 Jun 09 - 01:44 PM (#2660324) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: VirginiaTam Slight thread drift alert Received an email from colleague (cultural festival manager) today re needing ideas to promote the One World One Essex initiative. And I mentioned the threads like this and others and said that I would like to see monthly multicoultural folk sessions in pubs, schools or village halls and big festival in large venue yearly. The Arts development people and the aforementioned (cultural festival manager) started getting all excited and said I should apply for a small arts grant (£2500) to kick it off the ground. Now they want me to talk to the Diversity manager for advice. Thoughts? |
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19 Jun 09 - 02:07 PM (#2660348) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Phil Edwards Now they want me to talk to the Diversity manager for advice. Any funding is good funding, but my heart sank a bit when I read the D-word. "English traditional and other traditional" strikes me as just the wrong approach - as if English traditional music calls out to pure-bred English yeomen (yeopeople?) and excludes everyone else, and an alternative needs to be laid on for everyone with migrant roots. In actual fact English traditional music is automatically appreciated by a relatively small proportion of people of any extraction - and it can be appreciated by just about everyone, of any extraction. The relationship between English traditional music and England is historical, not ethnic - it's 'our' tradition in the sense that we live here. |
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19 Jun 09 - 03:22 PM (#2660401) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "Peter Bellamy was a Right-Wing Traddie..." Actually I thnk you're wrong, I've heard he was more of a free thinker..mind you with some of the left wing that would be tantamount to being right wing.....or being politically unreliable. |
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19 Jun 09 - 03:46 PM (#2660416) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman Rifleman ,never mind what you think, I bloody well knew him . my opinion is that he was a fairly CONVENTIONAL Conservative ,although his background was much more extreme,I would never have described him as a free thinker[that is very funny],he was in my opinion an excellent performer,and why the fu## he has been dragged into this load of cobblers ,I do not know. |
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19 Jun 09 - 03:48 PM (#2660418) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman I suppose we will have somme eejit tell us next ,that he believed in free love |
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19 Jun 09 - 07:01 PM (#2660541) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Stringsinger There is some good news here. The BNP crap has been tried before, here in the States by none other than that old corporate fascist, Henry Ford. He was a devotee of what he considered to be "American" and presented performances by various people from different countries wearing their native outfits to be run through a special stage machine that wiped out all traces of ethnicity and made them "truly amurican". He was also a devotee of country dance, (English also) and collected fiddlers and their repertoire. He tried to interest his followers in this "wholesome" pursuit as an antidote to their "furrin'" habits. It didn't and couldn't work. Stirring up hatred for immigrants is a cyclical pastime. It never lasts over the long haul. We have our spate of crazies here in the States that are reaching the media but although they are considered "newsworthy" most Americans are disgusted with this xenophobia. At one point in time, there was a bill to establish the "Square Dance" as the national one of America. Thanks to the lucid and informed understanding of Bess Lomax Hawes, this ridiculous idea was abandoned. My point: The more in depth we know of a culture, and the more information disseminated about it, the less it can be appropriated by racists or xenophobes with an agenda. Let's know more about English traditional culture and let it enlighten the way and turn the rock over to reveal the roaches. Frank Hamilton |
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20 Jun 09 - 03:31 AM (#2660738) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace I really wish y'all would listen (read) closely what Frank Hamilton is saying. He's really 'been there and done that'. Arguing over this type of thing detracts from FAF, it doesn't add to it. Hell, the BNP is likely laughing itself silly over the behaviour of people here. If I have offended anyone, message me. Let the BNP wash its dirty underwear in public. One would hope that at least we could be above that. Bruce Murdoch |
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20 Jun 09 - 04:25 AM (#2660755) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick Frank Hamilton. "Let's know more about English traditional culture and let it enlighten the way and turn the rock over to reveal the roaches." I agree absolutely. The more one looks at the folk culture of any nation, the more one realises how utterly unrepresentative of that nation it really is. EG., English folk culture is heavily permeated by Scots and Irish influences, to say nothing of influences from mainland Europe. To further muddy the waters, nationalists have been doctoring and manipulating "native" folk culture for centuries, whilst passing it off as the real thing. |
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20 Jun 09 - 06:36 AM (#2660785) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Tug the Cox See face book, 1,000, 000 united against the BNP> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8644741474 |
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20 Jun 09 - 07:44 AM (#2660805) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman Fred, interesting post,English culture has of course permeated Irish music too,[all those pattern dances]hardly surprising since Ireland was under complete English rule until 1921. [To further muddy the waters, nationalists have been doctoring and manipulating "native" folk culture for centuries, whilst passing it off as the real thing.]quote Fred M. so have others notably Bert Lloyd[I think we are the richer for his efforts] even Cecil Sharp ,was guilty of this,by bowdelerising manuscripts,and by being selective in that which he chose to record. |
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20 Jun 09 - 08:16 AM (#2660816) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: theleveller I find very intersting." let he or she who is without sin cast the first stone....*LOL* Touche! Sorry can't find the accent. LOL! |
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20 Jun 09 - 08:36 AM (#2660820) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Mick Tems I worked as a senior journalist on Cardiff's evening paper, the South Wales Echo, and I was all too familiar with the odious, ugly and repugnant policies of Nick Griffin. Griffin used to live in Penarth, the seaside resort adjoining Csrdiff, and later he ended up moving to a cottage near to Welshpool, Powys. The BNP had its roots in the National Front, the proto-fascist gang of thugs and hooligans. As a young reporter working in Ilford, I was only too aware of the shady criminal groups the NF fed on - for example, one notorious NF leader, Ron Tear, had a shrine glorifying Hitler is his council flat (front page lead, the Ilford Recorder) and another NF leader, postal worker John Cook, was sentenced for stealing loads of valuable mail. The BNP may have played down their fascist connections to lure and net the gullible public, but their leadership is out-and-out fascist and racist all the same, and they don't care who is trampled on in their crazed lust for power. I signed up with FAF, and I'm proud to stand up and be counted. I dearly love Welsh traditional music, its practices and ceremonies, too much to see it hijacked by rightist thuggery. Mick Tems |
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20 Jun 09 - 09:26 AM (#2660843) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Andy Jackson Well said Mick, perhaps this will get the thread back on track. Andy |
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20 Jun 09 - 10:02 AM (#2660863) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Borchester Echo I reported on many far-right incitement to racial hatred and public order trials, none so bizarre as those of the Dowager Lady Birdwood who never, unfortunately, got what she deserved. Here's what Searchlight had to say about this vile and nasty piece of work in 2000 after she died: A very English extremist Just a glimpse of what we are up against; the extreme voice of Britain's establishment. However, membership of FAF passed 3,000 this morning in under two weeks. Hurrah! |
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20 Jun 09 - 01:19 PM (#2660981) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman thanks ECHO. I am fairly sure that Nick Griffins father ,was a member of the National Front,he used to live in Huntingfield[near Halesworth] in Suffolk,and may possibly[my memory may be playing tricks]have stood as a council candidate for the National Front in the early 1980s. his father used to live at Cratfield road huntingfield |
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20 Jun 09 - 01:25 PM (#2660984) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) é this what you're looking for...yeesh some people are slow! anyway enough of this bantering (tryng not to *LOL*)..the subject matter of this thread is far more important |
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20 Jun 09 - 02:00 PM (#2661006) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman the extraordinary thing,is that there were no black ,jewish, asians,living in Huntingfield in the 1980s,and probably arent any now. |
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20 Jun 09 - 02:22 PM (#2661020) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TenorTwo You're quite right about Griffin's father and, yes, he did stand as an NF candidate (I forget the exact year - must have been about 1984). My recollection of the electoral roll for Huntingfield is that - if my memory serves me correctly - it consisted of precisely nine names, three (or possibly four) of which were Griffin. The council seat was Huntingfield, Walpole and a couple of other villages, so that evened up the odds! Me? I was wearing out shoe leather and car tyres for another, and in that area, equally hopeless cause! T2 |
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20 Jun 09 - 02:22 PM (#2661021) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "Nick Griffin comes from a wealthy right-wing family. His father, Edgar was a Conservative party member, involved in Iain Duncan Smith's campaign for election as party leader until he was discovered answering a BNP hotline in the absence of Griffin's mother who had also stood as a BNP candidate against Duncan Smith in during the 2001 general election." quoted from Here |
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20 Jun 09 - 02:37 PM (#2661031) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman Rifleman, there is nothing to beat having been there,as I was,and Tenor Two was, in 1984,that is how we know,about Griffins father. these little details are often not included in computer information. I knew Peter Bellamy,not really well, but enough to know his politics,he was a Conservative[but not the Griffin variety],neither was he [imo] a Freethinker,so please,stop repeating hearsay codswallop. |
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20 Jun 09 - 02:58 PM (#2661045) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) Get over it, sunshine, it's simply not of any import, except maybe to you and one or two others. That's the past, we have to deal with the here and now |
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20 Jun 09 - 03:49 PM (#2661075) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy i haven't caught up yet but thought i ought to tell you that there is a new troll about under the name. tam lower stoke. i am the root of your' problems richard!! the impersonater was.....me PMSL!! i am happy to be the target this time!! they say you have all been talking about me, i trust you lot enough to know that any problems you have with me you would approach me directly, as i would with any or you. take care all jade x x |
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20 Jun 09 - 03:51 PM (#2661078) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: theleveller "é" Love your accent. Can't read anything on this screen so off until Monday. |
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21 Jun 09 - 04:16 AM (#2661333) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick Re Nick Griffin's father and NF associations. Griffin dates his 'career' in ultra rightism from age 15, when he was taken to a NF meeting by his father. BTW. I was waking up this morning, which is always a slow process with me, and I had the radio on. During the review of the morning papers, I thought I heard the announcer say that Nick Griffin's great grandfather had been a travelling hawker. Is this true or was I dreaming? |
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21 Jun 09 - 06:19 PM (#2661729) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Vic Smith It's nearly May Day in England in 1944 and what is needed is something to cheer up war-torn England. Here is a delightful film that has the village children electing their May Queen and then the celebrations themselves. This film should fill you with patriotic pride:- Springtime in an English Village (1944) |
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22 Jun 09 - 09:13 AM (#2662049) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,ifor Around 80 anti fascists gathered outside a grotty hotel in Blackpool on saturday to protest at a BNP victory rally being held there. Four BNP supporters could not resist coming across to give the Hitler salute and chant the names of concentration camps at the anti fascists.They were arrested. ifor |
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22 Jun 09 - 09:41 AM (#2662061) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman Vic,thanks for the clip of the film,it was quite interesting. so were the comments. one thing it did not do was make me feel patriotic. however, both of us might have felt differently had we been there in 1944. personally,I respect ALL those people who fought against Hitler,I know I would not be alive today but for all their efforts. |
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22 Jun 09 - 10:15 AM (#2662085) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy the war took more than peoples lives, it took their humanity too. i can't imagine being one of the soldiers who had to do those things. how do you carry on with that on your' concience? even those people who don't know it, owe our brave boys and girls their thanks. take care all jade x x |
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22 Jun 09 - 11:42 AM (#2662136) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Tug the Cox Good find Vic. I take it BNP aren't interested in using it! |
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22 Jun 09 - 12:12 PM (#2662158) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) Springtime in an English Village (1944) reminds me rather of a cross between an Ealing film and This Pack of Lies note the music used and compare with that used in Springtime in an English Village |
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22 Jun 09 - 12:19 PM (#2662162) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: glueman 600? |
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22 Jun 09 - 12:45 PM (#2662178) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: glueman The original Glueman gets all English in a war on fascism. |
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22 Jun 09 - 03:48 PM (#2662295) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Stringsinger Fred, you are so right. There is no pure folk culture or unique national expression because there are always elements from predecessors or other parts of the world. Cecil Sharp was hunting English Folk Song in the Appalachians in the US because he thought that this was the isolated carry over from early times which he considered not to be extant in his time in England. Hence, the search which in my view culminated in a American musical expression. Of course, Sharp thought that the five-string banjo was a bowdlerization of the "English" folk song (I guess in the way that some would consider the electric guitar as such for any acoustic folk song.) Understanding the roots of any given culture leads to antecedents that influence it. Music from Galicia, Spain on Irish piping or traditional music might be a case in point. (The Celts got around). So if there is no pure race, nationality or culture, this then begs the question as to what defines a culture that excludes everything else not part of it. Folk Against Fascism can show that the roots of English music run deep as a river flowing from other tributaries. This has little to do with a mythologized identity based on xenophobia. When visiting St. Anne's College in Cape Breton, we talked to Mrs. Jones who really studied Scottish music and culture. Here's where they teach piping, dancing, fiddling etc. Her statement was quite clear. "The Scots are the biggest mutts in the world." Frank Hamilton |
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22 Jun 09 - 04:09 PM (#2662310) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge "bowdlerisation"? Surely not! |
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23 Jun 09 - 09:11 AM (#2662593) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick Breaking news. The Equality and Human Rights Commission http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/bnp-commission-takes-action-over-potential-breach-of-race-discrimination-law/ has just written to the BNP over its "whites only" Membership and employment policies. The letter argues that these breach the 2006 Equality Act and has given the BNP 30 days to reply. Failure to supply an adequate answer could result in the EHRC issuing an injunction. The full text of the Commission's letter is at http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/uploaded_files/letter_before_claim_final.doc |
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23 Jun 09 - 09:55 AM (#2662631) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Phil Edwards Actually the Equality Act 2006 is the act that empowers the EHRC to police breaches of the Race Relations Act 1976, which is the legislation the BNP is (fairly clearly) guilty of breaching. Interesting times! |
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23 Jun 09 - 10:00 AM (#2662641) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Ex Police Officer Fred, I was a copper and I wasn't allowed to join the Black Police Association. Will the Equality and Human rights commission be talking to them ? |
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23 Jun 09 - 10:03 AM (#2662642) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy i wonder whether they will change the rules or cop the punishment? if they change the rules i wonder if anyone would even try to get in knowing how they would be treated. maybe that is what needs to happen so the racist disrimination could be reported from inside the party, now there would be a very brave person indeed!! take care all jade x x |
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23 Jun 09 - 10:23 AM (#2662660) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick GUEST,Ex Police Officer. Evenin' all. Or is that DMR raising his ugly head again. |
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23 Jun 09 - 11:14 AM (#2662698) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "Fred, I was a copper and I wasn't allowed to join the Black Police Association. Will the Equality and Human rights commission be talking to them ?" First off, impersonating a police officer is an offence under the law. second off, you, DMR or whatever your calling youself this week, are the single most offensive SOB I have ever had the misfortune to run across (too bad I can't run you over *LOL*). You feel so safe hiding behind your 'Guest' name don't you? Why? Because you are a coward, as all you sort is, you don't mind going round in gangs, beating up (and murdering) whomever offends you, but catch anyone of you alone, and you're whistling a different tune. I do hope I never catch you alone....... |
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23 Jun 09 - 11:18 AM (#2662700) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge The twerps' latest game is 1. Hack the facebook account of a FaF member ("the first member") 2. Use it to complain to other FaF members ("the second members") that a third FaF member has forwarded to the first FaF member (the hackee) an offensive message originating with third member. |
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23 Jun 09 - 11:36 AM (#2662712) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) I've emailed Essex University Students Union regards informing them of FaF plans to organise gigs and so forth. Essex Uni has a high proportion of foreign students, and the county of Essex itself has a lot of BNP support. So hopefully the SU might find the initiative one worth getting on board with. Considering in particular the recent resurgence of interest in Brit-Folk amongst younger audiences, I wondered if it might be worth others amongst us doing the same and *contacting their local Uni's SU*, to see what interest and/or support there might be for the campaign amongst the UK's student population. A thought? |
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23 Jun 09 - 11:39 AM (#2662714) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) That's all that sort has, underhanded tactics, as has been proven so many times, theyn daren't show themselves in the light of day, they're too cowardly. DMR or whatever your calling yourself this week, pick on others who post here, and on the FaF site, and you pick on me, not a wise move, but then again wisdom isn't high on the BNP,s list of attributes is it? I do hope I never catch you alone....... |
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23 Jun 09 - 12:20 PM (#2662752) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy i had one of those weird messages, well two actually. the first one was resonable, the second one said that i had been very offencive and i had been blocked. i had to ask whether this was real or not, it was a fake. just to warn others, it is getting confusing i much prefere the nasty ones, at least i know what they are. i don't see how this lastest tactic,enhances the BNP, or tries to undermined the group. take care jade x x |
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23 Jun 09 - 12:28 PM (#2662763) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) Messing with our minds ans accounts is the only tactic the BNP and their supporters have, I've seen this sort of thing under other circumstances and events, it's pathetic, but at the same time annoying As I've already said, they're cowards, nothing more, nothing less. |
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23 Jun 09 - 01:10 PM (#2662798) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TheSnail As well as the BNP, it's worth keeping an eye out for The Steadfast Trust who gave us a bit of bother here in Sussex a couple of years ago. Select "News and Updates" from the menu to see the sort of thing they are getting up to. One of their stated objects is - TO ADVANCE THE EDUCATION OF THE PUBLIC IN ANGLO-SAXON MUSIC AND OTHER FORMS OF ART AND CULTURE (BOTH MODERN AND ANCIENT); Bryan Creer |
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23 Jun 09 - 01:24 PM (#2662812) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Andy Jackson Hmm, The Steadfast Trust. What I found frightening was that it all looked so reasonable and sensible. Only when you think "BNP" does it start to look devious. I have to sk, are we over reacting. Perhaps a bit of elaboration on the "bother" they caused might enlighten. Much as I loath the very existence of the BNP, I still have a great pride in my Englishness. FAF Andy |
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23 Jun 09 - 02:08 PM (#2662842) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Phil Edwards Really? When was this? I'd be interested* to hear about this, given that the first thing you see when you go to the Web site of the National Black Police Association is the words: Membership of the NBPA is open to all in policing on application There is no bar to membership based on colour. See for yourself. *That is, I would be interested to hear about it, if I thought for a moment that it had ever happened. |
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23 Jun 09 - 02:10 PM (#2662844) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Phil Edwards My previous comment was in response to Mr Anonymous, obviously. |
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23 Jun 09 - 02:57 PM (#2662889) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) This cut and pasted from the resources page of The Steadfast Trust,s website what word do most of the entries contain? Says it all doesn't it? Academic and institutional reports Many of these reports repeatedly make references to "white boys" or the "white-British" community and people. It is important to understand that in the vast majority of cases what they are actually referring to are under-privileged English boys, English people and the English community. Report 1 - Manchester University Report Report 2 - Government Report by Home Office Advisor Report 3 - Conservative Social Justice Policy Group Report 4 - Bristol University Report Report 5 - White British boys most persistent low educational achievers Report 6 - New study by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation Report 7 -Lost white boys from The Times Report 8 - Ethnic minority pupils improving faster in three Rs than white classmates Report 9 - As Black and Asian teenagers flock to university, WHITE working-class boys are shunning higher education Report 10 - White teenagers are significantly less likely to go to university than their peers from ethnic minority groups Report 11 - White children most likely to be bullied Report 12 - Teachers acting as substitute fathers for White boys Report 13 - White working class left behind The Steadfast Trust Resources Page |
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23 Jun 09 - 03:19 PM (#2662909) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) There isn't any issue with *recognising and addressing* problems that face young white working class males, because there *are* issues for this group which require addressing, the red herring that groups like Steadfast are insinuating, is that problems associated with young white working class males are somehow 'related to' or worse 'caused by', counterpointed successes within equivalent immigrant groups. The problem with orgs like Steadfast Trust is that their "interest" in the problems of young white working class males is disingenuous. They're more interested in the scapegoating immigrants, than genuinely becoming constructively involved in sorting out fully home-grown forms of societal dysfunction. Old story... |
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23 Jun 09 - 04:56 PM (#2663004) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer It's important to know who the Steadfast Trust really are, and what they represent. There is a group of very nasty racial purists in England who call themselves Anglo Saxons. They have adopted the white dragon as their symbol - the white dragon that is also the logo of the Steadfast Trust. Even "steadfast" is a coded message: the Steadfast Sword is an "ancient symbol" of the "Ethnically English" and features in their monocultural mythology. This stuff is used by groups like The Anglo Saxon Foundation - before you click on that link, I have to say it doesn't make for very nice reading. There is some horrible, racist stuff in there. But this is the same group who recently created children's activity packs for the Steadfast Trust to distribute to pubs in Leicester as part of their "English Event Packs". The Steadfast Trust also advertises books sold through the Anglo Saxon Foundation. How Steadfast ever got charitable status is a complete mystery. But it has legitimised their whole approach - in the same way that Nick Griffin has mainstreamed the BNP with his re-packaging. It's the same old racists and thugs underneath. |
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24 Jun 09 - 04:20 AM (#2663332) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: theleveller Thanks for the information, Ruth. "Know thine enemy" is a good maxim. |
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24 Jun 09 - 05:03 AM (#2663343) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick Folks checking out the Anglo Saxon foundation should look at this page. It makes interesting and, from our point of view, highly significant reading. http://www.uepengland.com/bbs/index.php?showforum=47 |
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24 Jun 09 - 05:09 AM (#2663346) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge What, you mean the fact that they like Seth Lakeman, Bellowhead, and Krusby? Deep followers of the real tradition in English music? |
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24 Jun 09 - 05:15 AM (#2663348) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick I've just received the Press Release below from an organisation called Nothing British. I know nothing about them, other than Tim Montgomerie and James Bethell are bother Conservatives. (Hell, I'd shake hands with the devil himself if I thought he'd stick his pitchfork up Griffin's rectum.) In any event, their website is at http://www.nothingbritish.com/ THERE'S NOTHING BRITISH ABOUT THE BNP Press release – 23.07.09 – immediate release Equality and Human Rights Commission "letter of action" to BNP re possible breaches of race law "There nothing British about an organisation that excludes members or staff on the ground of colour," said James Bethell of Nothing British. "The BNP's membership policy defines it as a party of racists, segregationists and bigots. A successful legal challenge would be a victory for British democratic values." "Of course, no one likes the idea of a government-appointed quango issuing legal proceedings against a political party with democratically-elected representatives. However, for too long the BNP's membership policy has widely advertised the poisonous suggestion that it's ok to define people according to the colour of their skin. It is time to tell the BNP in simple terms that Britain doesn't tolerate racists." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Note to editors:- 1. The BNP's membership policy is outlined in Section 2 of the BNP constitution:- "1) … Membership of the BNP is strictly defined within the terms of, and our members also self define themselves within, the legal ambit of a defined 'racial group' this being 'Indigenous Caucasian' and defined 'ethnic groups' emanating from that Race as specified in law in the House of Lords case of Mandla V Dowell Lee (1983) 1 ALL ER 1062, HL. "2) The indigenous British ethnic groups deriving from the class of 'Indigenous Caucasian' consist of members of: i) The Anglo-Saxon Folk Community; ii) The Celtic Scottish Folk Community; iii) The Scots-Northern Irish Folk Community; iv) The Celtic Welsh Folk Community; v) The Celtic Irish Folk Community; vi) The Celtic Cornish Folk Community; vii) The Anglo-Saxon-Celtic Folk Community; viii) The Celtic-Norse Folk Community; ix) The Anglo-Saxon-Norse Folk Community; x) The Anglo-Saxon-Indigenous European Folk Community. Members of these ethnic groups who reside either within or outside Europe but ethnically derive from them." 2. "Nothing British" (www.nothingbritish.com) is a campaign against the BNP run by Tim Montgomerie and James Bethell. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- There Nothing British About The BNP www.nothingbritish.com 5 The Sanctuary London SW1P 3JS Tel: +44 (0)203 397 0100 DL: +44 (0)203 397 0104 Mob: +44 (0)7802 895 300 Fax: +44 (0)207 222 2079 http://www.nothingbritish.com/ |
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24 Jun 09 - 05:26 AM (#2663352) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick Richard. Please, no cynicism. How about we lock them in a room and play them Harry Cox, Phil Tanner and George Maynard. That would probably be the last anyone heard of The Anglo Saxon Foundation. Anyway, I asked a question on this thread a few days ago, about whether Griffin's great grandfather had been a travelling Hawker. I've just found the following on the Nothing British site. Nick Griffin's great-grandfather a tinker, says The Express on Sunday Nick Griffin's great-grandfather was an itinerant "licensed hawker dealing in china and crockery ware" who probably lived in a caravan, according to census information revealed by the Daily Express. The revelation comes in the same week as attacks on Griffin denied that BNP were behind attacks on gypsies in Northern Ireland. "We have to bear in mind that the gypsy community is notorious for its extremely high rate of criminality and antisocial behaviour," said Griffin, 50. "Everyone in Romania and Eastern Europe nows this and it is one reason why their governments are so keen to encourage them to come over here." The full story can be read at the Sunday Express website; http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/108958/Derek-family-secrets-of-BNP-leader-Nick-Griffin . Thinks. "So that's what explains Griffin's criminal behaviour. It's in his genes, mate, that's what it is. It's in his genes." |
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24 Jun 09 - 05:33 AM (#2663354) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TheSnail Miskin Man Perhaps a bit of elaboration on the "bother" they caused might enlighten. I don't wnat to get too bogged down with long accounts but this is the basic story. A new chap appeared on the scene with a genuine interest in traditional music, in particular English traditional song. He seemed very tentative at first but I persuaded him to get more involved and he eventually started to sing; not great but competent and showing a good understanding of the material. Once in, he turned out to be a good organiser and ran a number of events financed by his local council. He got some traditional music into his daughter's primary school. He had some over romanticised ideas about the golden age of Anglo-Saxon England and professed to be a worshipper of Odin but that just seemd to be harmless eccentricity. Politics was never mentioned. We thought he was a useful addition to the scene. Then he blew it. He announced himself to a rather random list of people as the regional spokesman for The Steadfast Trust in a press pack that included an emphasis on the importance of the North West European gene pool and rants against immigration. I hoped that the right had just latched on to a naive enthusiast who might prove useful to them and I tried to persuade him of the error of his ways but to no avail. I later found he was well in with right wing figures and had articles published in BNP publications. When my arguments failed, I made sure that everybody who needed to know did so and that he knew that they knew. He hasn't been seen much since although he did run one succesful St George's Day event. Bryan Creer |
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24 Jun 09 - 05:43 AM (#2663355) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Anyone know what the story behind Griffins fifteen yr. old "folk singer" daughter is? I got the impression he intends to use her as a propaganda tool for attracting kids to the cause, much in the same way that Prussian Blue - the folk singing blonde teenagers in the 'happy Hitler' tee's - were used with some success, by white supremacists in the US. |
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24 Jun 09 - 10:33 AM (#2663474) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Stringsinger The nature of folk music is not restrictive otherwise it becomes a shallow copy rather than a full-blown living representation of a folk culture. It sounds to me that these erstwhile Anglo-Saxon groups are using folk music as a synthetic veneer, not a vital tradition. Music is a unifier. Unfortunately there were Nazi songs that were intended to unify some sick people. Hitler used Wagner (who was an anti-semite) in this way. The myths were intended to bolster the supremacy view. It became a characterized cartoon of itself. Bluegrass music runs the same danger in the US. I don't like to see the rebel Confederate battle flags flying at these events. Association by ideology that promote racial supremacy with certain musics are destined to be laughed at by future generations. The BNP are neo-Nazis that will not be important in the annals of history. |
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24 Jun 09 - 11:09 AM (#2663505) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Andy Jackson Thanks Snail, I've been looking around at the Anglo Saxon Foundation. This mischevious bunch come over first as a lot of well meaning weirdos, but further investigation reveals a nasty streak. They seem to be a more acceptable face of BNP thinking but they are just the thin end of the wedge, and as such very dangerous. FAF Andy |
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24 Jun 09 - 11:20 AM (#2663511) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) I was listening to some music by that truly great, but very underated, English composer Samuel Coleridge-Taylor(1875-1912 "He called himself an Anglo-African and fought against race prejudice all his short life." 100 Great Black Britons |
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24 Jun 09 - 12:48 PM (#2663617) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Royston Re: The National Black Police Association The membership is open to anyone who supports the aims of the association; which is to advocate and advance the interests of black and minority ethnic police officers. It is exempt from certain provisions of the race relations act because it is clearly stated to be an voluntary association to support and speak for a minority ethnic interest. The Race Relation Act exemptions are there to provide safe spaces for minority interests, I see nothing wrong with this. The same cannot be said of a political party (BNP or any other) which seeks the power, by democratic means, to impose its will over the entire populous. Such a group must, as a democratic necessity, be open to all members of the electorate over which it seeks power. At present the BNP mebership criteria excludes any consituent who is not white-skinned. This is intolerable. As soon as the unlawful exclusions are removed (as I assume the BNP will feel forced to comply with the law, wishing not to be proscribed), then all fair-minded people of all flesh-tones can join and vote at AGM to close it down or reform it totally - The British Floral Party or something harmless. I can't wait. Now I think on it, why should all fair-minded white-skinned people not join tomorrow, outnumber the existing membership and sort the whole wretched lot out? |
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24 Jun 09 - 02:44 PM (#2663717) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick Royston. Thanks for clarifying that point. It is gut wrenching hypocrisy for the BNP to claim exemption from sections 26 and 27 on the grounds of discrimination. Re. the question of fair minded people joining. My guess is that an application from anyone they didn't like would just get lost in the bureaucracy. Either that, or they'd take your subscription fee and forget to get back in touch. Also, my understanding is that the BNP isn't a democracy. Rather, although they have elections and votes, the Great Fat Whit Git has ultimate control over everything which transpires within the organisation. So votinmg to close it down would get nowhere. |
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24 Jun 09 - 02:52 PM (#2663722) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "As soon as the unlawful exclusions are removed (as I assume the BNP will feel forced to comply with the law, wishing not to be proscribed), then all fair-minded people of all flesh-tones can join and vote at AGM to close it down or reform it totally - The British Floral Party or something harmless." dream on, it isn't going to happen |
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24 Jun 09 - 03:08 PM (#2663740) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Royston Rifleman, I kinda like dreaming... But seriously, the CRE letter is the opening gambit in a well planned series of actions which will open up the BNP membership and neuter it from the inside. I'm in a position to know...not that my anti-fascist and trade-unionist colleagues are wanting to hide it, there are no secrets here! |
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24 Jun 09 - 03:11 PM (#2663744) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "But seriously...." dream on, it isn't going to happen |
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24 Jun 09 - 03:26 PM (#2663751) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "What, you mean the fact that they like Seth Lakeman, Bellowhead, and Krusby? Deep followers of the real tradition in English music?" I don't have a problem with the preceding artists, AND Bellowhead do know how to have a good time, unlike some..... Just because Richard Bridge doesn't like them and just because the Anglo Saxon Foundation mention them, doesn't mean I'm going to stop listening to them, along with The Copper Family, Lizzie Higgins, The Brazil Family, Oak, Tiger Moth, The Band etc..etc.. |
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24 Jun 09 - 05:06 PM (#2663815) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Yes, but if the BNP was serious about Heritage with a capital H, then it would be into roots white music, not SL, BH and KR. The lists of preferences exposes them as dilletante opportunists. A far as I'm concerned you can listen to whomsoever you like. |
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24 Jun 09 - 05:18 PM (#2663823) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: treewind "The lists of preferences exposes them as dilettante opportunists." Well yes, but would we expect anything different? They are desperate to exploit anything they can, but it's got to have some popular appeal or it won't suit their purpose. A. |
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24 Jun 09 - 05:46 PM (#2663840) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: SPB-Cooperator Re: Nick Griffins comments with regards to attacks on Romanians. I have just spoken to the police regrading post 24th June 5:26am. In my opinion this looks like incitement, particularly in respaect of the generalisations. If there is a verifiable and provable source of the comments, then this should be reported to local police stations. So please provide verifiable source of the information sop that as many people as possible can independantly press for criminal proceedings to be instigated. |
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25 Jun 09 - 03:37 AM (#2664150) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: theleveller "dream on, it isn't going to happen" I have to agree with Rifleman, there. Anyway, it would only drive them underground. It's better that their views are out in the open so that they can be constantly countered, challenged and refuted, as is happening from movements like FAF and many others. If we truly believe in free speech, even an organisation as rank as the BNP has to be allowed the opportunity to put forward its opinions. But – and here's the caveat – as I quoted on another thread, from John Stuart Mill , "No one pretends that actions should be as free as opinion". I believe, probably optimistically, that the current apparent increase in the popularity of the BNP is simply due to temporary discontent with other political parties, with the result that people feel disenfranchised and so vote for minority parties. This doesn't mean, of course, that we should be any less vigilant or diligent in countering these racists at every opportunity. |
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25 Jun 09 - 04:46 AM (#2664169) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick SPB. I doubt that Griffin's comments could be legally interpreted as incitement - unfortunately. All he's saying (ostensibly) is that he condemns the harrassment but understands the reasons. Leveller. "If we truly believe in free speech, even an organisation as rank as the BNP has to be allowed the opportunity to put forward its opinions. But – and here's the caveat – as I quoted on another thread, from John Stuart Mill , "No one pretends that actions should be as free as opinion". We have to be careful here. To external appearances at any rate, the BNP is a legal political party which brings with it the trappings of constitutionality. Provided they stay within the law, there is nothing we can or should do to stop them. That however does not stop us from organising against them, or exposing them as a bunch of liars and hypocrites. Anyone who saw Griffin being interviewed by a Sky News reporter, on the night of his election victory, will have seen one great fat white git being tied up in knots, because he couldn't admit the contradictions which exist between their supposedly moderate stance and the reality of the programme they put forward. I'd love to see Griffin on Question Time. The rest of the panel would make mincemeat of him. |
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25 Jun 09 - 05:40 AM (#2664195) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: theleveller "That however does not stop us from organising against them, or exposing them as a bunch of liars and hypocrites. Anyone who saw Griffin being interviewed by a Sky News reporter, on the night of his election victory, will have seen one great fat white git being tied up in knots, because he couldn't admit the contradictions which exist between their supposedly moderate stance and the reality of the programme they put forward." Absolutely! Bring this vermin out from under their stones and watch them shrivel in the heat and light of proper scrutiny. |
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25 Jun 09 - 08:31 AM (#2664271) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman unfortunately MBSGEORGE,refused to enter into a discussion. |
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25 Jun 09 - 08:50 AM (#2664277) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Royston Theleveller, We are not proposing to push the BNP underground or to silence its members. If they are going to be a representative political party (they now have MEP's!!) then we will ensure they have a fair and open membership policy and the party will be driven and directed by the democratic will of those members. Now if BNP'ers want to maintain their "white purity" message then they are free to organise as an "Association of White Supremacists" (or any other name of their choosing) and on that basis they may even warrant exemption from the Race Relations Act. However, they will not be permitted to remain a political party without having an open membership policy and a democratic structure. That's fair enough isn't it? |
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25 Jun 09 - 10:47 AM (#2664345) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy royston, i agree that the BNP should be allowed to hbold whatever views they wish. i just wish they would be open and honest about what they believe. then we could keep an eye on them knowing that vunerable people would not get caught up in their lies. but they know that if they did that they would lose alot of support!! so they won't. the only thing we can do is keep taking them on in a resonable way and pointing out to others that what you see is not what you get. take care all jade x x |
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25 Jun 09 - 11:13 AM (#2664361) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "However, they will not be permitted to remain a political party without having an open membership policy and a democratic structure. That's fair enough isn't it? Oh won't they? this sound very dictatorial to me. Are you going to be the first to sign up with the BNP and start 'making changes from within'? Because unless you are you have little or no say in the whys and wherefores of ANY politcal entity. The membership pays their dues therefore the membership has the right to make policy. |
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25 Jun 09 - 11:33 AM (#2664376) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Phil Edwards The membership pays their dues therefore the membership has the right to make policy. Sounds reasonable, but imagine this: RULE 42. Any member of this Party shall have the right to remove goods from any retail outlet of their choosing without making payment, and without being penalised for this. No concern of anyone but the members? The point at issue with regard to the BNP's Constitution is exactly the same - not that we don't think it's very nice, but that it may be illegal. |
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25 Jun 09 - 11:37 AM (#2664379) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "but that it may be illegal." Until guilt has been proven, innocence must be pressumed, regardless. |
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25 Jun 09 - 11:48 AM (#2664384) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TheSnail Rifleman Until guilt has been proven Proven many times. |
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25 Jun 09 - 12:06 PM (#2664396) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "Until guilt has been proven." as individuals members have been found guilty of crimes against the stae, in some cases prior to the founding of the BNP. Are they guilty of anything as a collective entity(the BNP)? Nothing has been proven as of yet, therefore. Until guilt has been proven. |
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25 Jun 09 - 02:12 PM (#2664541) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Phil Edwards Until guilt has been proven, innocence must be pressumed, regardless. It's not exactly Sherlock Holmes. Griffin claims that the 1976 law doesn't apply to the BNP because it's a "membership association" as defined in clause 26 of the legislation. However, what clause 26 says is that the exemption applies if the main object of the association is to enable the benefits of membership (whatever they may be) to be enjoyed by persons of a particular racial group defined otherwise than by reference to colour In other words, to claim exemption Griffin has got to argue that the main object of the BNP is to give its members the benefits of membership - not to give other people the (debatable) benefits of being governed by them. To go back to my shoplifting example, if I see someone cut off a security tag and walk out without paying, I don't need to await the outcome of a court case to conclude that that person's broken the law - and if they told me it was OK because they belonged to the British Shoplifting Party, I'd conclude that their party was working on the wrong side of the law. The evidence that the BNP, collectively, is on the wrong side of race relations law is really hard to ignore. |
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25 Jun 09 - 02:16 PM (#2664547) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Royston Rifleman; "The membership pays their dues therefore the membership has the right to make policy." That is exactly my point. Get the membership opened up, the anti-fascist / racist movement is standing ready to join up en masse and then democracy will take its course. There is nothing dictatorial about this - it is simple democracy. |
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25 Jun 09 - 02:31 PM (#2664560) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick "The membership pays their dues therefore the membership has the right to make policy." I've said this once already but I'll try again. The BNP is not a democracy. It is an autocracy in that, irrespective of the democratic wishes of the membership, the person who ultimately decides what goes is Nick Griffin. In any event, even if we infiltrated the BNP, which must be somewhat akin to climbing down a sewer while it's being used, and changed it, the hard core of fascists would simply leave and set up something else just as nasty. The only way to drive the BNP out of existence is to make the people they claim to represent realise just what they're dealing with; a nasty bunch of totalitarian fascists, who are hell bent on finishing off the job which Hitler started. |
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25 Jun 09 - 02:35 PM (#2664564) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TheSnail BNP democracy in action. Is that the sort of debate you want to sign up for? |
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25 Jun 09 - 03:34 PM (#2664611) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) Royston, lead the way and sign up...lead by example I believe the phrase is, except don't expect me to join you. "I've said this once already but I'll try again. The BNP is not a democracy" Yeah we heard you the first time! Some are good a saying but not much good at doing. I prefer the doing part, but without all the hysteria. |
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25 Jun 09 - 05:30 PM (#2664708) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Rifleman, look at the big picture. If the BNP wishes to have the benefits of being treated as a "political party", it must comply with the law. Once it does that, it can be destroyed from within. To borrow your phrase, walk a mile in Royston's moccasins. |
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25 Jun 09 - 05:56 PM (#2664734) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace Are we back to this "let's talk with them" bullshit? Keriste. You think you can reason with Nazis? WAKE UP! |
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25 Jun 09 - 06:01 PM (#2664738) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Jon Peace, I hate the way the BNP and "BNP-lite" political groups are insinuating their vile ideals into people's conciousness by pretending to represent the British people. I love Britain and am proud to be British, but I can't, in any way, equate that with being racist or anti-Europe. I'm as proud to be British as I am proud to be European, or a member of the human race. By co-opting English (let's face it - the BNP don't even care about the Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish) traditions as their own they hope to con the British public into thinking that the BNP aren't a racist, fascist, bigoted, hateful organistation. The sad thing is, the British public are falling for it. 1 in 10 of voters is 1 too many. The recent European elections shows their sympathisers are more than 1 in 10. Failure of the main political parties should be no excuse for people to resort to supporting fascists. That's just so way beyond sad, it's criminal. Stand up to fascism, wherever you see it...you'll never be wrong. |
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26 Jun 09 - 03:48 AM (#2665055) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Phil Edwards Hilarious story in the Western Mail. One element of the BNP's defence against race relations legislation is that its constitution doesn't actually bar non-whites - it's a party for " persons of a particular racial group defined otherwise than by reference to colour", to use the language of the 1976 Act. Here's Nick Griffin on Channel Four News: "Our legal counsel says that it is very clear that we are a Section 25/ Section 26 exempted organisation because we are here for specific ethnic groups. "It is nothing to do with 'white'. We are really talking here about the English, the Scots, the Irish and the Welsh, collectively the people who are ethnically British." He was asked if that meant a Black Welshman could join, to which he replied: "There is no such thing as a black Welshman. You can have a black Briton; you can't have a black Welshman." Nothing to do with 'white', eh? Really, the BNP couldn't have a better leader. |
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26 Jun 09 - 04:08 AM (#2665059) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: theleveller Royston, I understand what you are saying and have total sympathy with your aims. With the best will in the world, however, I really don't think it is going to happen. Even if you could take over the 'democratic' processes of the BNP, these people would still exist and peddle their filth. The BNP is the 'legal' iceberg of the racist movement – a much bigger portion exists below the surface. I can draw an analogy with something I have been involved in trying to stamp out: foxhunting/dog fighting/ badger baiting. Pretty much the same people are involved in all these activities and whilst it is easy to protest about the first – the public face of a bloodthirsty brigade - and engage in public debate, it is very dangerous to try to infiltrate the organisations that control the other two aspects. Like the racists, they are violent in the extreme, seem often to escape the law and are highly organised. Believe me, it would take some guts to infiltrate the inner core of the racist movement (although I'm sure it is being done) and then there has to be a very clear agenda and plan of action. The BNP is where the racist boil erupts and the pus emerges to the surface – and can be dealt with. Without that, the infection could spread even more virulently. |
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26 Jun 09 - 04:19 AM (#2665066) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: SPB-Cooperator THe problem with the 'legal' aspect is that unless it is kept under scrutiny, slice by slice the underlying nastiness will be given ligitimacy, i.e. without the 'legal' bit, the BNP are no more than a collection of racist, neo-nazi/fascist thugs. |
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26 Jun 09 - 06:03 AM (#2665101) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Penny S. After reading about the Steadfast Trust, and the Anglo Saxons, I am wondering about a group called "an gesithas engliscas" I came across at Tenterden many years ago. There was a local man who dressed up and lectured, accompanied by his wife, whose costume looked more Hollywood than authentic, and I was interested, but did not attend, and then decided not to when I saw that their aim was to "preserve the Anglo-Saxon way of life" which rang bells that did not alert me to re-enactment and such like. I wonder what the Boys Brigade thinks about the use of steadfast - I know they spell it differently. I would be very suspicious about Odinism - there used to be a book in my local library about it, or rather the origin of races, put in their proper locations by the will of Odin, emphasising that they should stay there. It was self published in typescript, and I used to slip it down the back of the stack whenever I saw it. It was filed in the science section, close to to the book proving the Colorado Canyon was the prodect of the Noachian Flood. Penny |
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26 Jun 09 - 06:17 AM (#2665112) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman I was hoping we might be able to talk to MBS GEORGE[The BNP candidate for Chippenham],she started by making an announcement of her political views,and then refused to discuss her views,a sure sign of intellectual bankruptcy. |
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26 Jun 09 - 06:50 AM (#2665131) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick "Hilarious story in the Western Mail." I really dug the reader's comment at the end of that piece. "So Nick Griffin thinks that 'there's no such thing as a black Welshman', does he? That pretty much leaves out all those who worked down the pit, then." |
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26 Jun 09 - 11:08 AM (#2665259) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "Once it does that, it can be destroyed from within." Oh for godsakes stop dreaming! |
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26 Jun 09 - 12:04 PM (#2665296) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Andy Jackson up to 666 the sign of the devil!!! |
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26 Jun 09 - 12:27 PM (#2665308) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Likewise, this "Guest" character, seems err just that.. He/It appears to be presuming some understanding of Riflemans experience, in order to instigate division, where nothing but discussion is occuring? |
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26 Jun 09 - 12:32 PM (#2665311) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) Sorry that WAS me, cookieless for a brief period. and I stand by what I say.....nothing but discussion you say..oh dearie dearie me... My suspicions of this Royston remain as they are. |
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26 Jun 09 - 01:00 PM (#2665325) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Fair enough. The Royston character is a sound guy. That's why I piped up. But we do need to be alert to trolling and fraudulent ID's. It's worth considering that the 'nice' folk scene we enjoy, won't be that way forever if the BNP gain a foothold amongst us... |
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26 Jun 09 - 03:11 PM (#2665419) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Stringsinger I suspect the BNP will never cross the pond. Of course, we have our own problems over here. |
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27 Jun 09 - 01:26 PM (#2665982) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "The Royston character is a sound guy" Hate to disappoint you, Crow Sister, I've advised through a Mudcat PM, that a poster on the FaF facebook site has been posting as "Rifleman Royston", and this AFTER I questioned the sincerity of the poster to this thread, Royston. |
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27 Jun 09 - 09:46 PM (#2666232) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: fumblefingers What exactly is BNP and what does it profess? Is this new movment for uncontrolled immigration by third world nationals or what? |
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27 Jun 09 - 10:12 PM (#2666240) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy basically F.F, the BNP are bully boys who have started wearing suits and ties in order to get respectibilty in UK politics. they hate all minorities, the biggest hate being people of colour. they think that white english are the best peoples ever to walk the earth and think if this country was all white, all our troubles would be over. pretty much every member has been arrested for either violence or incitment of racial hatred. they have many firm links with the KKK, combat 18 and the national front, all of which are extremely violent. NOW they are TRYING to say that by supporting traditional ENGLISH/BRITISH folk music that we must all think like them.... UTTER BULSHIT!!! but hey, thats why we love 'em!! hope this helps as a shortcut to any new people joining us, as it takes SO long to read 600 odd posts. take care all jade x x |
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27 Jun 09 - 10:51 PM (#2666250) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: fumblefingers Jeddy, Thanks |
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28 Jun 09 - 05:39 AM (#2666349) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Andy Jackson Just thought I'd refresh as it's been a bit quiet on here and fumblefingers put it all in a nutshell for any new viewers. |
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28 Jun 09 - 12:49 PM (#2666530) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Royston Well Rifleman, Crow Sister knows me personally as do many of the UK contingent here, Richard Bridge has known me 25 years. I have the intelligence and wit not to be on bookface in any way shape or form whatever - real or assumed identities. My political credentials are impeccable. Royston is my name. WTF are you? |
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28 Jun 09 - 01:22 PM (#2666558) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Tom Bliss I'm sorry to bring another contentious issue into this already muddled and tetchy debate, but Royston raises a very important point. Folk Against Fascism is nothing if not a struggle for truth. Am I alone in finding it, err, ironic that so many here are standing up to be counted - in disguise? If ever there was a case for real names in real situations this is it. Please people - disagree about details by all means, but don't use that disagreement to cast the other guy as your enemy. Face The Front, ok? Please Tom Bliss |
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28 Jun 09 - 01:45 PM (#2666569) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Just to confirm that lots of people on Mudcat and on the folk scene can vouch for Royston. What's important is that the BNP (presumably) strategy of imitating Mudcat ID's is ignored as far as possible - *apart from* advising the Facebook Admin, or relevant parties by PM of course. Its purpose is to generate division and doubt. Thus it's not in our interest to discuss such matters here IMO - as it'll obviously only encourage more of the same... Before giving any credence to the spamming, better to clear up any identity doubts or confusions, via PM to admin or other known reliable members IMO. |
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28 Jun 09 - 01:55 PM (#2666572) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Once there is an FaF organisation properly sorted, I'll become a real human member with name and address and DNA if necessarily available to those who actually need to know. Richard Bridge uses his own name and photograph - and the spam on Facebook is now using err his name and photograph. Lots of people now have to be advised that Richard Bridge isn't a BNP supporter and pervert.. Meanwhile I'm not going to feel pressured into doing anything different on a chat forum like this, because of annoying spamming on another site I'm not even a member of. |
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28 Jun 09 - 02:23 PM (#2666586) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy because i use the same name here as i do FB, i assume that the idenity theif thinks that it will be too obvious to nick mine, since the photo with it is me and the other half looking like you wouldn't want to be left alone with us, maybe that is the reason. i think the way to go is, if you are unsure come here and use PMs. it is good that we are all too aware how easy it is to setup a page somewhere else in someone elses name, this makes us suspisious, but as long as we keep our wits about us... WE WILL CONQUER!! stand together and no one can devide us. tkae care all jade x x |
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28 Jun 09 - 02:25 PM (#2666587) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Oh, please don't tell the sheep at Knockholt that I am not a pervert! They will be so disappointed. But, Rifleman, you are being very silly if you think the Royston here is anyone other than the real Royston. His politics are sound. You are an enigma. Every so often you say something really sensible - and then you say something totally daft. |
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29 Jun 09 - 06:20 AM (#2666948) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Vic Smith Read the article on page 3 of today's (29th June) The Guardian entitled Racist, threatening - and beyond the law. Procecutors call for action on BNP leaflets. It has not reached the on-line version of the newspaper at http://www.guardian.co.uk/ yet but it should do in the next few hours. |
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29 Jun 09 - 06:52 AM (#2666964) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Barden of England Rifleman, you've got it SO wrong. Royston is exactly who he says he is, and it's obvious to me that 'Rifleman Royston, is but another of those BNP bastards to try and 'divide and conquer'. The same outrageous thing happened to Richard Bridge. It's pretty obvious that it is some odious arsehole who reads Mudcat on a regular basis or maybe even a contributor. 'Daily Mail Reader' comes to mind who was so cowardly that he/she/it hid behind a GUEST name. 'GUEST-Scum of the Earth' would have been a much more fitting way to sign in. I'll repeat - Royston would never have done this. John Barden |
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29 Jun 09 - 07:08 AM (#2666970) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy brian, kev and val and marion have all been dragged into this too. i don't know if they are real but go to the nags head if that exists. the message was from joanie ' large pair' crump. why would anyone waste their time in this way????????????????? i am hardly likely to take any notice, but am worried that if these people exist, they might get some flack for it. take care all jade x x x |
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29 Jun 09 - 08:28 AM (#2667009) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Jeddy, I think it would be helpful to many of us to see the entire message that you got. The apparent linkage to the Nag's Head is possibly significant. |
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29 Jun 09 - 09:22 AM (#2667042) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Royston It seems quite clear to me that the agitators are one or both of only two card-carrying fascists that I know of and which also lurk on this forum as Guests / Readers and perhaps under other registered names. Some others may also be thinking along similar lines but I do not intend to propose names as it cannot be proven completely (unless someone can provide me with actual emails (including all headers) from these people and also the IP addresses of their posts to forums. It's all very childish but then it is meaningless to me as I do not use any networking sites, because they are just chock-full of trolls and fascists. It's like the Guardian "Talk is Free" site, but even more pointless. As an anti-racist / anti-fascist activist, I've learned to let "them" have these pointless forums. By staying off them altogether, anyone who matters will always know that any bookspace or myface activity with my name must in fact have been done by the fascists. |
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29 Jun 09 - 10:18 AM (#2667086) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge I have sent the following message to the website "Digg". "Sir The Digg user "HoffBridge" is unlawfully impersonating me. He is using a photograph of me for his identity, without the permission of the copyright owner. My name is Bridge, and a nickname by which I am sometimes known is "Hoff". His postings, thus using my name and likeness, in support of the loathsome and racist BNP (British National Party - rather like the American Klu Klux Klan) are intended to and do carry the defamatory implication that I am a member of the BNP and a racist. I require you to remove his identity and all of its postings from the site. If I do not hear from you within 7 days agreeing to my demand, I am likely to bring legal proceedings against you without further notice. I am a solicitor. All of my rights are hereby reserved. RIchard McD. Bridge" |
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29 Jun 09 - 11:05 AM (#2667126) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge I was going to put something similar as a note on all of HoffBridge's posts, but the website is so slow and clunky that it would have taken decades. I might try early tomorrow morning when the KKK are between their white silken sheets (in stead of wearing them), and the BNP still under their stones... |
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29 Jun 09 - 11:09 AM (#2667129) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "His politics are sound....." by whose standards? |
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29 Jun 09 - 01:43 PM (#2667269) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Walk another mile in your moccasins, as you claim, and while doing so, think. |
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29 Jun 09 - 01:57 PM (#2667286) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Barden of England OK Rifleman - try this. His politics are his to know. However, his denunciation of the BNP and what is stands for are clear and unmistakeable. I know Royston personally, and KNOW this to be the truth. Yours is just conjecture as you don't appear to have met him. How about lightening up? John Barden |
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29 Jun 09 - 02:55 PM (#2667337) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "Walk another mile in your moccasins, as you claim, and while doing so, think." I've walked further than you'll ever know and further than you'll you'll ever do, I don't have tio justify myself especially to you, your politics are not my politics and never will be. You're right it is conjecture...I'll play wait and see. "How about lightening up?" I,ve said all I need to say on this and other matters regarding this FaF organisation |
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29 Jun 09 - 03:07 PM (#2667349) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Barden of England I,ve said all I need to say on this and other matters regarding this FaF organisation WRONG - you've said all you've wanted to say - there's a great big gaping hole between NEED and WANT. Tell that to the starving, the disposessed, and the repressed. They know the difference, which you don't appear to. John Barden |
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29 Jun 09 - 03:15 PM (#2667357) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "Tell that to the starving, the disposessed, and the repressed. They know the difference, which you don't appear to" Don't EVER preach and me Barden, I've seen, felt, and experienced all of your ravings and more!! Repressed, YOU don't even know the meaning of the word, sunshine, and I doubt you could EVER begin to conceive of the meaning. so on yer bicycle! |
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29 Jun 09 - 03:19 PM (#2667360) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Barden of England I wondered when you would stoop to that. I WILL preach to you whenever I feel the NEED, as you put it. You don't know me, but if you want to I'm about to PM you my details. Please reciprocate, and we can carry on whatever slanging match you feel you need to without this board. |
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29 Jun 09 - 03:23 PM (#2667363) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Barden of England Details PM'd John Barden |
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29 Jun 09 - 03:23 PM (#2667364) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) I've noticed a couple of threads from our favourite Guests seeking information about potentially racist or at least racially 'sensitive' subjects. There are of course excellent reasons to genuinely discuss such matters, yet when raised by Guests, there are obvious doubts about the veracity of such requests. I'd suggest leaving obvious racists alone to do their own research into provocative songs, and let them entertain themselves by themselves, with their fascinating findings. I'd also like to request that the moderators keep a firm eye on such provocative Guest requests - but I expect that'd be quite futile. |
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29 Jun 09 - 03:29 PM (#2667370) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) I know the difference thanks, Barden, I've known it for alonggggg time, and no, I don't know you. |
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29 Jun 09 - 03:35 PM (#2667376) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) Oh and......The people that I feel NEED to know who I am already know.... |
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29 Jun 09 - 03:37 PM (#2667378) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman 700 |
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29 Jun 09 - 03:38 PM (#2667381) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman Mike Hockenhull. |
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29 Jun 09 - 03:44 PM (#2667386) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy i have recieved the following messages. I was talking to Kev and Val at the weekend in the Nag's Head and they were telling me Richard has been sending you pm's on mudcat, Just be careful Jade, Richard is a nice guy, but he might be looking jockeying (look at what happened with Marion that time). Brian was there too with Val and Kev. 2nd one.. I have sent the following message to the website "Digg". "Sir The Digg user "HoffBridge" is lawful.I am using a photograph of meself which shows my best side, you have permission to copyrightit as I am the owner. My name is Bridge, and a nickname by which I am sometimes known is "Hoff". All postings, thus using my name and likeness, in support of the great BNP (British National Party - UNLIKE like the American Klu Klux Klan) are intended to and do carry the defamatory implication that I am a member of Mudcat cafe. I require you tell everyone who I am on the site. If I do not hear from you within 7 days agreeing to my demand, I will post a picture of myself in swimming trunks standing with Marion ! All of my rights are hereby reserved. RIchard McD. Bridge" What do you think of it ? 3rd one... Dear Jade, I just spoke to Carrie and Ann, they send their love. It seems quite clear to me that the agitator here is a member on the Mudcat forum. Some others may also be thinking along similar lines but I do not intend to propose names as it cannot be proven completely (unless someone can provide me with actual emails (including all headers) from these people and also the IP addresses of their posts to forums. Anyway that's all for now, please pm me again on Mudcat, I always look forward to your pm's over there. Love Richard ( by the way, your not a bad looking tart). i have had others but have deleted them or they are not implicating anyone else. sorry if some of those were you richard but i didn't think you were on FB. i hope this helps in narrowing down the culprit!!!!! right now i think i should read everyone eles postings. take care jade x x |
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29 Jun 09 - 03:48 PM (#2667390) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Barden of England Rifleman - Then good for you. Just expect someone like me to pull you up when you cast doubts about the proberty of the people I DO know.And seeing as you don't know me, I've let you know who I am, and can assure you that at 64 years of age I've 'Been there' and 'Done that' too. And what's more I still am. Sorry for the thread drift everybody. John Barden |
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29 Jun 09 - 03:48 PM (#2667392) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick Vic, I can't trace the Guardian story, Racist, threatening - and beyond the law, which you mentioned as being at http://www.guardian.co.uk/ . Could you post the direct link? Many muchos. In the meantime, whilst looking for that item, I found an even more disturbing story at http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jun/29/white-supremacist-neil-lewington A white supremacist with a bomb factory, and a National Front member apparently. Charming character! |
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29 Jun 09 - 03:54 PM (#2667401) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) If I'd wanted to know about you, Barden, I would have asked...I didn't ask. |
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29 Jun 09 - 04:05 PM (#2667412) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Barden of England So Rifleman, you make judgements on people even though you don't know them. Par for the course if you ask me. And with that I believe that I've indulged in enough thread drift. TROLL all you want Rifleman. When you do you'll get constant PM's in the future. John Barden |
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29 Jun 09 - 04:14 PM (#2667418) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) and complaints will be made, I assure you. As I said, people who need to know who I am already know... |
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29 Jun 09 - 04:16 PM (#2667421) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Emma B Fred, I think this may have been the Guardian story Prosecutors press for action against BNP leaflets "Senior prosecutors are calling for the laws on race hate crimes to be strengthened to counter the threat posed by the British National party. The threshold for securing a conviction is so high that far-right activists are able to evade prosecution for material that many people would consider to be threatening and racist, according to sources at the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS). The offence, which was created under the Public Order Act, only applies to acts that take place or are witnessed in public so it does not cover leaflets that are pushed through people's letter boxes. It also offers no protection against the publication of inaccurate or false information. Several BNP leaflets have been referred to the CPS over the last five years – some by senior police officers and one by a judge – but no further action has been taken In another incident, Derbyshire police alerted the CPS about a BNP election leaflet claiming three asylum seekers had raped a woman. The police said the rape claims were "unfounded", but the CPS said there were no grounds to prosecute under existing law. "Whilst those details in the leaflet regarding the alleged rape are factually incorrect, this in itself does not constitute a criminal offence," said a CPS spokesman at the time." |
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29 Jun 09 - 04:23 PM (#2667423) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge That's quite fascinating Jeddy. I know where Kev and Val were at the weekend - and it wasn't the Nag's Head. I also know where Marian and Marion (two different people) and Brian were - and that wasn't the Nag's Head either. I look forward to HoffBridge's attempt to prove either that he is me (which he isn't) or that he is the copyright owner of the photograph of me that he uses (which he also isn't). The latter should prove especially hilarious since he is under the impression that there is a verb "to copyright". He also doesn't know how to spell the name he renders as "Carrie". I have never messaged you on facebook. What a complete twerp he is. His attempts to use parts of my or Royston's postings are so obviously misplaced. It does however demonstrate the paucity of understanding of BNP members. |
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29 Jun 09 - 04:44 PM (#2667442) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy so if i have got this right the police can't do anything unless the threat is personal and witnessed, no matter what. aarrggggggggg!!!!! this is so frustrating if we can all see what is going on, then why can't the law. i don't understand why it is okay for the BNP and not okay for ( whats his name)?? the islamic bloke the one who i think got deported.... you know who i mean. surely inciting racial hatred should be delt with the same no matter what religion, colour, or political stance these nutters want to take. anyway, richard, i hope that stuff helped if i get anything more that might help, do you want me to PM them or post them so others can see?? take care all and keep your wits about you. jade x x |
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29 Jun 09 - 05:20 PM (#2667473) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Thanks Jeddy - feel free to post them in public, we might as well all have a laugh. I'll have a word in the pub some time this week - the landlord looks like a compact pit bull and keeps two staffs - and has a picture of him shaking hands with Reggie Kray on the wall, so if anyone tries to disrupt his pub it may get entertaining... |
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29 Jun 09 - 05:24 PM (#2667480) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Vic Smith Fred McCormick asked - Vic, I can't trace the Guardian story, Racist, threatening - and beyond the law, which you mentioned as being at http://www.guardian.co.uk/ . Could you post the direct link? I did say, Fred, that It has not reached the on-line version of the newspaper at http://www.guardian.co.uk/ yet but it should do in the next few hours. and at 10pm BST it still has not reached that website...... But as your are an old mate, I've text scanned it for you. Racist, threatening - and beyond the law. Procecutors call for action on BNP leaflets.Pressure mounts for end to race hate law loopholes |
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30 Jun 09 - 05:45 AM (#2667830) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick Vic and Emma B. Thanks for sorting me out over the Guardian article. I always thought racist leaflets were banned under anti-racist legislation. Obviously that's not the case, and something we need to organise to change. Rifleman and several others. Will you for f**k's sake cool it. This is a serious discussion about the biggest threat to individual liberty and multi-cultural fraternity, and the rights of ethnic minorities to live in peace since the Berlin bunker. All you are doing is impeding the discussion. BTW., and re the photograph in the Guardian article. If that isn't a fake I'll eat my hat. OK., in my case arthritis and old age have set in, but I tried doing a V sign and my fingers just will not not stick out like that. |
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30 Jun 09 - 07:15 AM (#2667875) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Vic Smith Fred McCormick said "re the photograph in the Guardian article. If that isn't a fake I'll eat my hat. " Whether they are authentic Muslim women or not, it is clear that the photo has been doctored. The proportions of the photo have clearly been changed to make the women appear wider in proportion to their height - and this has been done to make them appear more threatening. This also explains the visual effect of the impossibly wide V-sign. I would say that your hat has a non-dietary future, Fred. |
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30 Jun 09 - 07:23 AM (#2667882) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick They are quite likely Ameircan models who've been dressed up for the occasion. The BNP uses an American agency for such things. With any luck that will be because no reputable photographic agency in this country would touch them with a bargepole. |
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30 Jun 09 - 03:23 PM (#2668225) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Frozen Gin (inactive) "This is a serious discussion about the biggest threat to individual liberty and multi-cultural fraternity, and the rights of ethnic minorities to live in peace since the Berlin bunker. All you are doing is impeding the discussion." It appears to be another of those circular discussions that goes around and around, getting no where. It's fairly obvious what most people think of the BNP, and it's fairly obvious what some people want to do about the BNP rather than just talk about it..enough said |
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30 Jun 09 - 03:41 PM (#2668240) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy we might be going in circles but it is important to keep this thread in the list of recent topics, for people who only visit every so often and might not be aware of what is happening. it is also important IMO that we keep on top of this and not get complaisent(?) about what 'they' are up to. take care all jade x x |
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30 Jun 09 - 03:51 PM (#2668250) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Frozen Gin (inactive) Oh, I agree, the issue is a dire one but it's hard to focus on the topic at hand when you have folks, screaming at one another like old washerwomen. The two of you, and you know who you are, cease and desist forthwith and please don't point the fingers and say that he or she (as the case may be) started it, I don't care who started it, stop it now!! |
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30 Jun 09 - 04:16 PM (#2668271) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) I think 'they' took it to PM already - indeed some time ago. So onwards...! Any updates on the progress of a FaF website? Anyone taken any initiatives in support of the campaign, or fancy suggesting any? Anyone see the current discussions about blacking 'traditions', pertinent to this campaign? I contacted my local SU about the campaign, but as yet have had no response. I imagine SU staff in general are busy with other more academic stuff at this time of year though. |
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30 Jun 09 - 04:33 PM (#2668286) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Frozen Gin (inactive) "Anyone see the current discussions about blacking 'traditions', pertinent to this campaign?" No, from my reading the blacking tradition and the complaints around it are an unecessary side track from the overall issue at hand (a red herring as it were) |
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30 Jun 09 - 05:07 PM (#2668315) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Gervase No, from my reading the blacking tradition and the complaints around it are an unecessary side track from the overall issue at hand (a red herring as it were) I dunno - the issue could be seen as a gift to the BNP, so it's very important to be absolutely clear what lies behind the tradition. Already some people have made a kneejerk reaction and gone onto 'political correctness gone mad' autopilot without considering the inextricable linking of the 'n' word with the border tradition. |
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01 Jul 09 - 02:57 AM (#2668638) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Andy Jackson There are no sidetracks fromthe issue at hand. All the nonsense like the "Blacked up Morris Ban" and the like must be noted and kept in view. Keep a file somewere and store thgis stuff there. But WE don't need to keep bringing these issues up here, surely we are already clear how WE feel, after all we are "Folkies". I really think we should be reporting here on the actual activities of the Bloody Nasty People. FAF Andy |
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01 Jul 09 - 04:48 AM (#2668683) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick "we might be going in circles but it is important to keep this thread in the list of recent topics, for people who only visit every so often and might not be aware of what is happening." I agree it's important to keep this thread going. That's partly because 'British' folk music is right in the BNP's firing line, and partly because we as singers, musicians, writers etc ought to be using whatever talent we've got to help organise against them. For the matter of that, there's also the question of what happens to the music of the rest of the world, should the BNP ever gain power. Yes, I'm talking about all the third world music which has become infinitely more accessible in this country over the last thirty years,and which the BNP would undoubtedly ban. But internal arguing about who said what, and who's a closet troll, and who has the finest set of fascist bashing credentials won't merely get us nowhere. They are counter productive. If you want to start an argument please do it where it won't impede serious discussion. |
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01 Jul 09 - 05:05 AM (#2668696) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Gervase The Bloody Nasty People seem to be exercised about the blackface morris issue, with a morris dancer contributing to the debate here. |
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01 Jul 09 - 08:58 AM (#2668837) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Andy Jackson Exactly so Fred McC., that's what I want to see here, not internal bickering and point scoring. I certainly wasn't saying the debate on "Black Faced Morris" was not important, just that we don't need to chat amongst ourselves about it. As I said, we probably all feel the same., but what we do want is proper evidence of BNP's activities, like the link from Gervase. All power to your elbow, FAFAndy (for as long as SHE still goes by MBS) |
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01 Jul 09 - 09:33 AM (#2668864) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick A thought occurred to me this morning. Nick Griffin hates the niqâb and burqa. Indeed he hates any form of Muslim uniform which involves covering the face. Repressive and mysoginistic says he, remembering to put his trousers on. Nick Griffin has been to the USA and hobnobbed with leading members of the Ku Klux Klan. If he hasn't tried the Klan uniform, I'll put that non-dietary hat of mine straight back on the menu. What, I wonder does Griffin make of the Klan veil, which is designed to anonymously threaten and terrorise and kill innocent people and burn them out of their homes, where Muslim face covering is merely regarded as a means of preserving female modesty? |
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01 Jul 09 - 09:43 AM (#2668871) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,MJ Andy It has already been stated on another thread that it is not quite as simple as just changing your sudoname on Mudcat. 'SHE' has been MBS for as long as she has been online and has every right to continue to be so. MJ |
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01 Jul 09 - 09:46 AM (#2668876) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Gervase MJ - it's easily done! |
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01 Jul 09 - 09:53 AM (#2668883) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: MBSGeorge Change it now please that is a libelous statement! |
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01 Jul 09 - 10:08 AM (#2668892) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Ah, the American spelling of "libelous" I see. So much for racial purity. |
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01 Jul 09 - 10:16 AM (#2668902) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Gervase ...and BNPGeorge, I would relish an action for defamation. Do, please, bring it on. A quick Google will give you enough information to serve a writ. Nothing would give me more pleasure than to see a the racist and neo-nazi organisation that you champion pour its money into a pointless legal action. And if it's not racist and neo-nazi, why on earth have you been staying so quiet all this time. Surely all these dreadful things said about the BNP need to be challenged by its standard-bearers, lest ordinary people actually think they're TRUE! |
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01 Jul 09 - 12:36 PM (#2669007) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: wysiwyg I have encouraged (and will continue to encourage) MBSGeorge not to respond to these issues in this forum. Because as I have stated elsewhere, anyone in her situation needs room to THINK. No matter how urgent anyone else may be about the speed of that thinking process or their desire for a response. ~Susan |
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01 Jul 09 - 12:48 PM (#2669018) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Gervase A nice idea in principle, Peace, but George Dale actually started a thread here to admit "I am the BNP Candidate in Chippenham". A lot of questions were asked of her - many more in sorrow than in anger - and no answers have been forthcoming. Her last post before today was on June 9th. I would have though that in the four weeks that have elapsed, she would have had time to compose a calm, unhurried and robust defence of her views which she could simply post as a coda that that thread. Or this one. Or as a new thread. One of the things about seeking public office on a political ticket is being prepared to stick your head above the parapet wearing that ticket. And, seeing as George was the catalyst for the birth of Folk Against Fascism, her response to the points that have been made would be pretty interesting. But, as I've said before, I'm not going to hold my breath... |
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01 Jul 09 - 01:08 PM (#2669034) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,MJ Gervase What planet are you on? How could you possibly expect one person to respond to a thread with over 700 posts. It would take a year or more as each question answered would throw up more questions in response. Your expectations are a little unrealistic. If you are that desperate to speak to MBSG then maybe you should try posing your question(s) through the pm facility instead of continuing to make assumptions and comments with very public references to her. MJ |
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01 Jul 09 - 01:11 PM (#2669039) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Gervase The same questions have been asked many times - they boil down to whether or not she agrees with the statements and actions of the BNP leadership over the years. And for someone who has stood for election - in public - her reluctance to state her convictions here is strange. She only has to post once; there's no need for her to get involved in a lengthy tit-for-tat. But, if it makes it easier, I will PM George the questions that have been asked. She can then take her time in answering them, and I will post the answers here on her behalf. |
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01 Jul 09 - 01:12 PM (#2669042) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: wysiwyg GW, I appreciate your remarks' description of the time-frame and responsibilities you think are appropriate. If they were addressed to me, however, you just made me one of the greatest folksingers of all time. :~) I think you also moved me halfway across a huge continent. :~) Oh, and you changed my gender too-- what an interesting day THIS will be ! ;~) It's not in the cards for me to post often in any BNP or FAF threads. I prefer face-to-face, so please do not infer any attitudes or thoughts on my part if I do not responds. I'm just busy, so I am prioritizing my time (and about to leave on vacation, too). :~) And, as I said, I continue to encourage MBSGeorge to exercise restraint and not respond. ~Susan |
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01 Jul 09 - 01:15 PM (#2669046) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: MartinRyan This thread has become hopelessly unwieldy and appears to be being maintained as a form of publicity stunt i.e. to keep it near the head of the page and mark this site as being "anti-fascist". This is, no doubt, a holy and a wholesome thought - but its musical connections are marginal, despite all the protestations to the contrary. I suggest it be moved to BS - despite the risk that those concerned will probably simply find another vehicle to carry their message here. Regards |
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01 Jul 09 - 01:18 PM (#2669048) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,MJ GW In that case it is unlikely that she will respond - If I send/receive something via the PM service I do not then make those messages public. You won't gain anything by making that sort of statement- except perhaps tell people that you yourself have a low moral compass - PM = Private Message. MJ |
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01 Jul 09 - 01:28 PM (#2669058) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Banjiman But you're a guest MJ..... how can you receive a PM. I hope your morals are in tact? |
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01 Jul 09 - 01:31 PM (#2669060) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,MJ I'm only a guest as I don't currently have my own PC but will be contactable once it arrive - within the next few weeks I hope. MJ |
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01 Jul 09 - 01:33 PM (#2669062) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Royston I encourage MBSGeorge to crawl away somewhere and stop bothering decent folk. There is no point trying to engage fascists on any level until they have worked out their internal anger and bitterness for themselves and are ready to return to normal society. Just ignore her. Not worth it. |
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01 Jul 09 - 01:37 PM (#2669064) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Joe Offer I think moving this thread to BS is an excellent idea, Martin. I had considered it earlier, but there were a few messages in the beginning of the thread that made reference to music, so I left the thread in the music section. I reviewed the last 150 messages in the thread and saw no reference to music at all, so I must conclude that this is a very thinly-disguised political thread. As far as I can see, the last significant mention of folk music in the thread was on June 20. So, I've moved it to the non-music section. -Joe Offer- |
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01 Jul 09 - 01:38 PM (#2669065) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) WYSIWYG, it's the done thing in the UK for people that decide to enter the world of politics (which essentially involves wanting to tell other people what they can and cannot do), to be able to support their political views when questioned and challenged. George well knows this. Whats more George is a big grown up lady, I'm sure she can make up her own mind whether or not she feels she is inclined to answer to robust questioning, without being patronised. It might be challenging for her to defend her political views, because she will receive some strongly supported arguments off of the many serious minded and extremely intelligent posters here. But, I for one would like to hear some of what she might have to say. Plus, I'm sure she's not so foolish as not to realise that she'll get much more 'robust' questioning than that found on a folk forum, if she proceeds much further in her political career. She's going to have to develop a very thick skin. I might dislike the politics she stands for, and I do very much, but at least I recognise that she's an adult woman capable of quite strong self-determined action - as indeed her choices have already demonstrated. Your condescending Mumsy comments however, make her look as though she's a dribbling infant in need of burping! |
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01 Jul 09 - 02:26 PM (#2669107) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Gervase In that case it is unlikely that she will respond - If I send/receive something via the PM service I do not then make those messages public. You won't gain anything by making that sort of statement- except perhaps tell people that you yourself have a low moral compass - PM = Private Message. That's a pity. I would have thought that someone who was willing to stand on a public platform for election would feel able to make their views public. But if what you say is true, and George is unwilling to answer any questions about her views or even make a public endorsement of them, that's probably all the answer we actually need. I said in advance that her answers to the questions would be published here, specifically to make her aware of that point, so your comment about 'low moral compass' is rather wide of the mark. Anyway, I shall still send her the questions. But, as I've said before, I'm not holding my breath for a sudden onset of moral fibre. |
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01 Jul 09 - 02:37 PM (#2669112) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Gervase PM sent. |
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01 Jul 09 - 02:44 PM (#2669115) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Andy Jackson Just a few points arising. I had wondered when Joe would move this to B/S. Although it IS imho directly about the music we love, it has turned a bit introverted of late. My idea of signing as FAF Andy arose when chatting with another MBS person. We are proud of our standing in the British folk scene. The suspicion is that BNP tagged on to MBS George because of her "title" it certainly stirred us up. Interestingly some who wish to converse with George already know her personally. I have known her since she was very much younger and would be very interested to find where she came by her, to me, repulsive views. While it may be her "right" to continue to use the prefix MBS, I am not alone in now finding it insulting to many old friends. I agree with WYSIWYG, though, that it would not be good for George for her to join in with open converstaion on a Mudcat thread. FAF Andy |
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01 Jul 09 - 06:27 PM (#2669275) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Phil Edwards While it may be her "right" to continue to use the prefix MBS, I am not alone in now finding it insulting to many old friends. I may be alone in my ignorance, but what does MBS mean? |
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01 Jul 09 - 09:34 PM (#2669380) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: wysiwyg Middle Bar Singer-- a regular pubsinging crowd? ~S~ |
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02 Jul 09 - 02:36 AM (#2669500) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Andy Jackson Just Google Middle Bar Singer. FAF Andy |
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02 Jul 09 - 03:38 AM (#2669510) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Phil Edwards Gotcha. Better still (for anyone else), google "Middle Bar Singers" - the singular form doesn't seem to be used nearly as much, which I guess is appropriate! |
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02 Jul 09 - 03:43 AM (#2669512) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Gervase I've just read Tom Attah's blog, Curry and a bit of Motown from his link on the FAF Facebook forum. A great piece of writing and a terrific summary of what any of us involved in music should be doing. Pass it around. |
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02 Jul 09 - 05:12 AM (#2669547) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Andy Jackson Thanks Gervase, a brilliant, well written piece. Vital reading. FAF Andy |
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02 Jul 09 - 05:30 AM (#2669551) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Gervase And then, by way of complete contrast, there's this, part of a very bitter blog by someone who was once very close to Nick Griffin. It's not for the squeamish - when fascists fall out the gloves come off and the results are messy - but it does give a fascinating insight into the inner workings of the BNP. It's a lengthy read, but it should leave no-one in any doubt about the party and the filth that swills around in its darker corners. Some of the well-sourced and corroborated revelations on the blog about Griffin and the BNP really should be more widely circulated, even if he has 'betrayed' National Socialism. |
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02 Jul 09 - 05:46 AM (#2669557) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman thanks Gervase. |
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02 Jul 09 - 06:07 AM (#2669561) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick The BNP will be taking their seats in the EU parliament in just two weeks time. For anyone who hasn't signed already, Hope Not Hate have organised an on-line petition to tell the BNP that they are not there in the name of the British people. The petition is at http://action.hopenothate.org.uk/morenamesneeded |
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02 Jul 09 - 06:11 AM (#2669564) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: theleveller The Hope Not Hate campaign is trying to get 100,000 signatures on a petition to hand in when Griffin and Brons take their seats in the EU Parlaiment in two weeks' time. They already have over 80,000, so if you want to help this campaign, sign up at http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/ |
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02 Jul 09 - 06:30 AM (#2669567) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U25LH7i93XU here is another dangerous person. |
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02 Jul 09 - 06:33 AM (#2669570) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U25LH7i93XU |
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02 Jul 09 - 09:03 AM (#2669654) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Phil Edwards I've got mixed feelings about the HNH petition - I mean, I voted Green, so the Labour, Lib Dem, Tory and UKIP MEPs aren't there "in my name" either. The BNP MEPs are there in the name of their voters - that's how it works. But I think it's worth signing, just to show how much opposition there is. |
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02 Jul 09 - 10:03 AM (#2669700) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy i rekon so many people voted for the BNP as a protest and didn't even think to research what they were actully voting for so i signed not only for myself but for those who beleived the hype and got sucked in and now regret it. i think there are more people like that than we think, at least i hope so. that blogs was very interesting. i finished the first one but i don't think i could have handled anymore without bringing up my breakfast!!! keep fighting take care all jade x x |
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02 Jul 09 - 11:22 AM (#2669775) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Frozen Gin (inactive) "The Hope Not Hate campaign is trying to get 100,000 signatures on a petition to hand in when Griffin and Brons take their seats in the EU Parlaiment in two weeks' time. They already have over 80,000, so if you want to help this campaign, sign up" and the resultant effect is going to be what exactly? |
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02 Jul 09 - 11:25 AM (#2669783) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy i am not sure, but it is something that needs to be done (IMO) to remind the politicians that we still care and are aware of what sort of power we COULD have over them instead of the other way round. they should be there to represent our interests and not their own. jade x x |
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02 Jul 09 - 11:44 AM (#2669799) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) I personally encourage MBSGeorge to put her money where her mouth is, to walk the walk insted of talking the talk, and attempt to sure, I see nothing libellous uin anything anyone has said, so MBSGeorge feel free, I'll see you in court |
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02 Jul 09 - 11:55 AM (#2669805) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) erk...!!part of my previous post got eaten....that should have read I personally encourage MBSGeorge to put her money where her mouth is, to walk the walk instead of talking the talk, and attempt to sue anyone on this thread or on the FaF facebook site. I see nothing libellous in anything anyone has said, so MBSGeorge feel free I'll gladly see you in court. |
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02 Jul 09 - 11:55 AM (#2669806) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Gervase I PM'd her the questions yesterday. No reply. But, as I've said, I ain't holding my breath... There's also the chance that the BNP won't let her respond. Before the election the party high command issued a warning to members not to set up official party blogs in the run-up to this year's European elections because "they can't write proper English" and "get carried away with conspiracy theories". The handbook said that some BNP members are "oddballs", "Walter Mitty characters", "compulsive liars" and "born troublemakers", and advised activists: "If you hear something odd or unpleasant about someone either forget about it or ask them about it to their face." It added: "while we cannot stop individuals using the internet ... the BNP does not allow members or units to run websites or blogs which use the BNP logo or party name in their title, or which give the impression of being official BNP operations". So poor George may find herself gagged by the proponents of free speech. It would be nice to know, one way or the other. |
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02 Jul 09 - 12:30 PM (#2669851) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "So poor George may find herself gagged by the proponents of free speech." either that or we've caught the poor dear with her knickers down, and all she can respond with is "Change it now please that is a libel(l)ous statement!" As I stated earlier, see you in court MBSGeorge. Charlie |
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02 Jul 09 - 12:39 PM (#2669861) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Apropos, I just did have a word with the landlord to tell him he might have some strange visitors with knuckles dragging on the ground. His reaction? "Sounds like we might have a bit of fun. I'll make sure we're all tooled up ready". |
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02 Jul 09 - 01:04 PM (#2669878) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman I suggest that everyone gives the you tube clip one star. I see hoff bridge ,has put a favourable comment to it.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U25LH7i93XU one star please |
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02 Jul 09 - 02:25 PM (#2669971) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy i did wonder what was so bad, now i know that i am not mad!! there might be more reasons than we know as to why she has joined them. i am against everything they stand for and want to see them brought down i have no wish to persecute someone who may have been pressured into something. there is always another way but in the middle of a crisis she may not have been able to see it. it would be so easy to scream and shout and a part of me just wants to do just that and shun her. my god, i feel like a grown up and i am not sure i like it!!!! take care all jade x x |
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02 Jul 09 - 02:47 PM (#2669990) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Gervase Jade, it's one thing to join - it's quite another to seek election wrapped in their odious flag. Your concern does you credit, but I fear it may be wasted. |
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02 Jul 09 - 04:30 PM (#2670073) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) Jade your emotions regarding this are just that, YOUR emotions. Charlie ;-) |
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02 Jul 09 - 04:45 PM (#2670085) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Just by way of reminder, the pathetic and peurile individual calling himself (in various places) "HoffBridge" and posting foolish recastings of my words (with meanings that are antonyms of mine) is not me. |
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02 Jul 09 - 05:12 PM (#2670104) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy rifleman charlie, what was that about? i am just saying that things are not always as they seem. i, like you was disgusted that someone would ever join the BNP much less stand for election. there is no excuse not to know what they stand for. however i am willing and wanting to believe that she has been somewhat brainwashed. i am thinking that although i am trying to understand her motives, that she has had long enough to think about it and to gain a full picture of what they are like and what they intend to try to do. i do not condone her actions or the towing of the party line, we all know what that is. i am feeling somewhat conficted as i do not wish to be a reactionary bully, but would rather try to reason, i accept that in some cases(and i fear this is one)where a compromise cannot be reached. but wasn't it worth a try? if we could persaude the uncertain members of the party, then we would be able to turn their knowledge to our advantange, see the link that gervase made. take care all jade x x |
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02 Jul 09 - 07:49 PM (#2670209) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Cobble What a waste of a thread, if people had got off their fat back sides it could have been different, so don't pick on people that did vote they at least went to the polling station and did what people fought for, for many years, THE RIGHT TO VOTE FOR WHO THEY WANTED. Cobble. |
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02 Jul 09 - 08:50 PM (#2670232) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy cobble, calm down man!!! i have been told there are more folks that read these threads than post on them so maybe it has got some people motivted or changed who they vote for. so not really a waste of time. BTW i didn't need to get off my fat arse i have a postal vote and yes i used it. take care all jade x x |
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03 Jul 09 - 04:00 AM (#2670383) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Dear Cobblers Please engage brain before putting mouth in gear. There are, surely, two main purposes to FaF. The first is to save folk music (stricto sensu and neofolk) from becoming elided with the racist texts of the neonazi holocaust denier and all-round scumbag Griffin and his neanderthal friends (who are daily cloning the identities of others on various forums and trying to smear their opponents as being racists and sexists too). No doubt, since you are here, you have an active interest in folk music and folk dance and folk lore, and you will recall that in the wake of the German Nazi Reich all German and Anglo-Saxon matters volklorisch became tainted with the poinonous doctrines of racial purity and supremacy and have not even yet recovered. Folk music is ours and you shall not have it. Secondly FaF is a publicity machine to ensure that those who by inertia let the apes take a few seats see the horror that they have allowed near to our doors, and re-join civilisation to help it bar its gates against the true untermensch. I do hope you can manage the big words. |
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03 Jul 09 - 08:59 AM (#2670584) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy richard i think whoever this person is, they really pay attention to you. every time you post i get a message on FB distorting what you say. I KNOW THIS IS NOT YOU!!!!! i think they either find you really threatening or fancy the pants of you, they do say that imitation is the highest form of flatterry, but in this case i am sure you would rather they didn't i knew you had posted here before i even looked here. please don't let them stop you from saying wehat is on your' mind, as i look forward to reading your thoughts. take care jade x x jade x x |
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03 Jul 09 - 09:06 AM (#2670591) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Do please send me a copy of their latest stupidity, openly or by PM! |
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03 Jul 09 - 09:15 AM (#2670597) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy 1st message. Dear Jeddy There are, surely, two main purposes to FaF. The first is to save folk music (stricto sensu and neofolk) from becoming elided with the tree hugging texts of the Enoch Powell was right deniers and all-round scumbag rifleman and his neanderthal views. No doubt, since you are here, you have an active interest in folk music and folk dance and folk lore. Cara, are you a member of the Russ Meyer fan club ? Folk music is ours and we shall keep it BRITISH. Secondly FaF is a publicity machine to ensure that those who have never saw or heard of a Russ Meyer film get off their backside and watch one. Love Richard Bridge 2nd message I see someone calling himself "Robin Loxley" is using my photogrph ! I have reported this to facebook. Just by way of reminder, this pathetic and peurile individual calling himself (in various places) "Robin Loxley" and posting foolish recastings of my words (with meanings that are antonyms of mine) is not me Thank you Richard Hoff Bridge 3rd message Cor Blimey, did you read wat my mate Richard Hoff Bridge said on Mudcat ? yeah hez a rough one alright, yeah mates in high places. Jade, I noz Richard for years,hez me old cock sparrow, knew hiz old man too, Dick. With Richard itz nought for nought, he will be looking the apple pickers off you luv. Hez got a fork and knive, saw him with her the other day eating a Ruby Murray. Right luv, good talkin to ya and I en't gettin into Richards arguements. He called me mate "right wing" on mudcat, and come on Jade that just en't on Seeya darling the Guv. see what i mean he/she is paying very close attention to you. i have no idea who you are or wherte you are but you seem to have made a friend!!! i am worried though that for people who don't come on here that they will start to beleive these stupid thigs, not that they are that good, i see the level of intelligence we are dealing with and i have to say i do not feel overly threatened. LOL take care , i hope they made you laugh as much as i did. jade x x |
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03 Jul 09 - 09:45 AM (#2670625) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Interesting that they have dug back far enough into my Mudcat posts to discover that my father was nicknamed "Dick" Bridge. But they have overlooked that like my father, my "fork and knife" is dead, so if I had recently been eating a Ruby with her their words would be of even less concern! Anyone who knew her may be able to imagine the words she wuld have had for them... What very silly people. |
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03 Jul 09 - 09:54 AM (#2670630) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Jeri Content YOU put up on Facebook is considered intellectual property and it's against ToS to steal somebody's stuff, including photos. Apparently, this fuckwit has multiple identities. If I were you, I'd report it to Facebook. The worst they can do is ignore you. |
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03 Jul 09 - 11:14 AM (#2670687) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) Well, it appears the BNP and/or it's acolytes have scored some points, they have everyone talking about who is who or who is not who, whichever the case maybe, instead of discussing and planning strategy against the BNP. "as long as I gaze on Waterloo Sunset, I am in paradise" Charlie |
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03 Jul 09 - 11:25 AM (#2670696) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy there are two reasons i have posted the messages i get 1) i like them so much i want to share my laughter and contemp with you all. 2) if it will help identify the culprit, who obviously knows more about you lot than i do. i may know a few of you in the real world but i have only figured out a couple, the rest of you, (without wishing to sound rude) i have no idea! you could be my next dorr nieghbour for all i know. whoever you are and where evr you live , i hope you all have a great day/evening take care all jade x x |
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03 Jul 09 - 01:30 PM (#2670783) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Royston Jade, You should stop, please, referring to the Bookface and craptube nonsense by the BNP because whether you mean to or not, it is the discussion of it here which is rewarding the perpetrators. Just ignore them, they are not worth it. If anyone is concerned about impersonation then that person must report it quietly to Bookface / Craptube themselves and not engage in any discussion about impersonation with anyone that they do not know in the real, flesh and blood world. This childish nonsense has taken too much of good people's time and effort and we need to force a stop to it now, methinks, by cutting off its oxygen-supply. |
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03 Jul 09 - 04:03 PM (#2670902) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) Jade, carry on posting as you do, indeed by constantly referring to the BNP and its acolytles, you may get a reaction. You know the old saying, "give someone enough rope and they'll hang themselves" Keep up the good work, Jade! :-) Charlie ;-) |
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03 Jul 09 - 04:58 PM (#2670955) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Barden of England I see that FaF has got the BNP (and the imposter 'Hoff') so worried that they need to send this stuff out in PM's. What tawdry little nazis they really are. All the more power to FaF. John Barden |
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03 Jul 09 - 06:19 PM (#2671033) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Ah, Rifleman. Is "Rifleman Royston" on FaF you? |
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03 Jul 09 - 10:45 PM (#2671185) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV6xiU4XyoM this is one song i will not let them corrupt!!! take care all jade x x |
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03 Jul 09 - 10:47 PM (#2671187) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy sorry should have said it is the june tabour song oops j x x |
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04 Jul 09 - 03:43 AM (#2671270) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Royston John B What tawdry little nazis they really are Quoted for the truth!!! |
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04 Jul 09 - 03:59 AM (#2671278) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Barden of England Royston - they're trying to get to me now. Does it bother me? NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST. And I'll repeat - MORE POWER TO FOLK AGAINST FASCISM!! (I'll shout it out loud and clear). John Barden |
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04 Jul 09 - 11:17 AM (#2671423) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "Ah, Rifleman. Is "Rifleman Royston" on FaF you?" You'd like to thinks so, Bridge, but I hate to disappoint you (no I don't), but I can't even be bothered signing in using my own name, which is what I used on facebook, let alone wasting my time, using an alias. Besides which, I've come to the conclusion that I honestly don't care if someone uses my mudcat name, that's all whoever it is knows about me, and it's the least important part of my life. |
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04 Jul 09 - 11:54 AM (#2671450) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: VirginiaTam They got me and TheSilentOne too. Facebook has been contacted with request to take them down. What an utter twiddledick this guy is. Well assuming it is a guy. |
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04 Jul 09 - 03:27 PM (#2671572) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Gervase Meanwhile, no news from MBS George, the midwife of FAF. |
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04 Jul 09 - 04:01 PM (#2671583) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Ah, VT, I'm glad you said that. It's time to bring back one of the all-time great Mudcat phrases, that fits the BNP to a tee! Broke-dick mamalucca! |
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04 Jul 09 - 04:51 PM (#2671616) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) From: Cobble Date: 02 Jul 09 - 07:49 PM What a waste of a thread, if people had got off their fat back sides it could have been different, so don't pick on people that did vote they at least went to the polling station and did what people fought for, for many years, THE RIGHT TO VOTE FOR WHO THEY WANTED. Cobblers And which conflict did you fight in to make all this possible? I didn't quite catch that bit. |
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04 Jul 09 - 11:22 PM (#2671800) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy what does everyone make of the comments of bernie ecelston(?) "hilter was a man who got things done" i think you cannot disagree with that. he managed to get people to do the most horrendous things. it shows that if the BNP ever find someone with that much influenceand force of personality to represent them, we could be in for a serious battle. so lets band together now to make sure that doen't happen. take care all jade x x x |
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05 Jul 09 - 03:05 AM (#2671852) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Cats We are all sitting at our computers [me included] joining in this discussion and looking at the list of contributors so far it would make a bloody good line up for a festival. Anyone got a field big enough? That would be something positive, a proper FAF festival with a huge range of acts, crafts and lemonade from our Sal before she gives up. |
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05 Jul 09 - 03:34 AM (#2671860) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge 800 |
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05 Jul 09 - 06:05 AM (#2671906) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Phil Edwards i think you cannot disagree with that. he managed to get people to do the most horrendous things. Bizarrely enough, Bernie Eccleston's comments about Hitler are flat wrong (as well as grossly offensive) - Hitler was an incredibly inefficient leader (and personally a very lazy man), who deliberately fostered competition and duplication of effort throughout the government. The only thing he was good at was being a charismatic figurehead, specifically one who could make people feel that viciousness & brutality were noble. |
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05 Jul 09 - 08:42 AM (#2671958) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy he may have run his country into ruin, but look what he accomplished on a global scale!! he was an absolute monster. evil personified,BUT when you watch the footage, he was adored????????? i really don't understand how anyone could have thought he was worthy of such worship, or how they could do the things they did. i think it is a good job that the BNP has no one in charge that can produce that kind of frenzy, there are nutters in this world who are willing to go even further than they did, if they were brought together under such a charismatic leader i dread to think of the consequences!! it is our duty to decent folks everywhere to stop this happening. this is why we have all joined FaF in the first place. this is OUR country, OUR music AND OUR history, we will not allow it to be used for hatred and discrimination. it was built on cooperation and tolerance and long may it stay that way!!!!! take care all jade x x x |
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05 Jul 09 - 12:16 PM (#2672076) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Strange that F1 racing should have two such flawed characters at its heart (Bernie Ecclestone and Max Mosely). |
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05 Jul 09 - 12:22 PM (#2672079) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy since i am not into F1 |
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05 Jul 09 - 12:25 PM (#2672080) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy sorry pc went mad again.. i have only heard the name max mosely. what is his problem? could you fill us in please? cheers jade x x |
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05 Jul 09 - 01:46 PM (#2672134) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Phil Edwards Son of Oswald, for one. |
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05 Jul 09 - 03:21 PM (#2672175) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Max organised himself a spanking orgy (he was the spankee) with some authoritarian girls in uniform. One had a hidden camera and sold the pix to the News of the World. The News of the world decided to report that the girls were in nazi uniforms and Max sued for invasion of his privacy - and won. Don't you read the papers? It is one of the biggest threats to press freedom for some time - and indeed there was a big thread on it here. He is an authoritarian in a sport of wordlwide economic importance, and I think his relationship with authority is therefore a matter of genuine public importance. |
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05 Jul 09 - 04:05 PM (#2672208) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy no i don't tend to read the parpes as there is so much crap in them. not to mention the frivilous stuff of who is doing whom.. i don't care!!! i cannot read all the old threads it would take up my life!! well i ma addicted to the cat anyway, so it would be even more of my time. i am a mudcat baby and have only been here since early may. apart from the fact they were nazi uniforms why should we care if he was shagging one person or fourteen? unless he was forcing the girls to participate. this is why i don't read the papers, i am more interested in my own(lack of) sex life than someone elses. take care all jade x x x |
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05 Jul 09 - 06:08 PM (#2672274) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Jade you must take that lack up with your other half - who I infer to be the other in your Facebook pic. It's not the fact that Mosely was getting his end away (or at least his rocks off), it's the fact that he has, it seems, an erotic fixation on authoritarianism and he wields a lot of authority on a global scale. BTW, are you any relation to the famous Jade Rose, the Essex "glamour" model? AFAIK your first post as guest was on the 14th May. Wonderful thing, Google. |
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05 Jul 09 - 07:25 PM (#2672307) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy ah now i get you.. i know it takes awhile!! LOL yes she is the other one in the picture, she sleeps and i play on here, how romantic are we??? no relation unfortunatly, she sounds like she makes alot of money we could do with a loan around now. i really must get used to this google thing, honestly i would forget my name if i didn't have a tattoo on the back of my hand love and respect jade x x |
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05 Jul 09 - 07:52 PM (#2672322) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Dave the Gnome no i don't tend to read the parpes as there is so much crap in them. Wonderful, Jade. I am not sure if it was intentional but, if I may, I shall use that phrase forever to describe the gutter press. The parpes. Or maybe the parpers. The noise is about right and they make about as much sense as a parp. What a gem:-) DeG (Parp. Noun. Being either the noise a car horn makes or the noise that results from an excess of wind escaping from the nether regions. Depending on your locality, age and/or state of mind Parp - verb. The act of parping. A horn or the other...) |
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05 Jul 09 - 08:21 PM (#2672334) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy i hadn't even noticed that one!! piss myself laughing, i do check it but hey it works so i will go with it. the parps it is!!! cough splutter and chocking laughter. take care all love jade x x x |
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06 Jul 09 - 04:11 PM (#2673166) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Stringsinger I get the point that Ruth presents that this is a local issue and the concentration of protest against the BNP should come from those who really cherish English culture and music. OTOH, there are people here in America who have never heard of the BNP and what they are about. The education has to be extended internationally. Solidarity with others who oppose fascism in every country is important. Arundhati Roy has written recently that the demise of democracy in the world could mean the demise of humanity. Authoritarian autocracy, imperialism, jingoism, pseudo-nationalism all work against our survival as a species. In this way, what the BNP stands for is reflective of a disease that could wipe out populations. For this reason, it is not just a local problem. |
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06 Jul 09 - 04:19 PM (#2673176) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Jade, your spelling is totally pants (mine isn't all that good tbh), but you do make many excellent posts! I hate some of the stroppy spelling/grammar pedantry round here (DoE there, *isn't* an example btw!) so Don't ever change! |
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07 Jul 09 - 07:12 AM (#2673719) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy "Dear Jade, I just spoke to Carrie and Ann, they send their love." who are these people? could you warn them they are being used to make this person seem genuine.if they are real. take care all jade x x |
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08 Jul 09 - 03:06 AM (#2674426) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge A list of criminal convictions of BNP people |
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08 Jul 09 - 01:01 PM (#2674862) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Royston On the subject of convictions held by BNP members, it is interesting to look at some of their overseas convictions. The founder of the BNP's Hereford chapter is Lambertus Nieuwhof, a South-African white supremacist and leading member of the AWP, a terrorist group in the old SA run by Eugene Terre-Blanche. He was convicted of planting a 25kg bomb in a primary school in 1992. The bomb failed to go off which is the only reason he got a tragically lenient sentence from an apartheid-era court of 12 months SUSPENDED! He also runs the BNP website/forum and if you want to ask him about it, you can reach him at 101 Crossways, Peterchurch, Herefordshire, HR2 0TG; or by phone on 01981 550888. Nieuwhof's "thing" is advancing white-power by sparking race-war. Hence the plan of his, amongst others, to murder children at a school that "threatened" to go multi-racial. Welcome to the cuddly world of BNP 2009. |
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08 Jul 09 - 04:28 PM (#2675051) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Donuel I am satisfied with the definition of fascist as any person or group that actively seeks to deny the first amendment rights to individuals, the nation or the world. In 2004 I yelled that there was a fire in the theatre of our nation and my dear new neighbors did the following: challened my right to vote twice resulting in my casting 2 provisional ballots Filed 10 IRS forms 3949 alleging we had not filed taxes in 10 years resulting in many hours and dollars proving our innocence. Called our house between 2 AM and 4:30 AM over 450 times resulting in having the police trace their nearly untracable numbers. Filed 2 unsubstantiated charges of child abuse against my wife and I resulting in an appearance at a hearing 7 months after the allegations and families not allowing our children to play with thiers. The sudden and complete disappearence of my website of 7 years resulting in a loss of my illustrated book of my poems and songs. eggs thrown at the house, urination on the door, fire set in yard and profanities written on signs. Their whispering campaign regarding my family was full throated and loud enough for me to hear from our windows. I was physically detained by one neighbor insisting that if I did not condone his gay bashing group I would be considered an enemy of God. There was also a despicable incident with him regarding my 4 year old son. There were other cowardly and juvenile acts committed against us but they have now seemed to have stopped as we slowly descend into an economic disaster. Mind you most of these are people live a mile outside the beltway and two of them are from the internet, one of which posts here claiming that our experience is all a lie and that I am clinicly paranoid. The first instinct is to shut up and lay low but then fascism begins to grow exponentially stronger as a result. Congress shall make no law to deny free speech... but individuals and religious groups have the above techniques and many other ways to deny certain people from the Constitutional rights our ancestors fought to preserve. If McCain had won the election I am certain that domestic religious terrorism would have been openly waged between American neighbors and not select individuals like physicians and politicians that we still see today. So the last several years have proved to me that the fascist enemy to free speech is not an individual devilish dynastic dictator who wins an election by careful manipulation but is actually the poorly educated religiously motivated neighbors who feel powerfully emboldened whenever they seek to silence the dissenter of "thier real America" or celebrate the brutal torture techniques of the Third Reich. Today these same fascists welcome the detonation of a bin Laden bomb in the USA as the means to once again abbandon the Constitution and inflict total control on our citiaens with themselves in charge. The damage to me and my family in the last five years is real, permanent and ongoing as is the financial rape of my country by a better educated brand of greedy zealots called investment bankers. The bright side is that people like myself are now working for the goverment we deserve instead of settling for whatever is inflicted upon us. |
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08 Jul 09 - 04:38 PM (#2675061) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) first amendment rights are American only and don't apply world-wide |
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08 Jul 09 - 06:21 PM (#2675178) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Donuel That a country back in 1776 would grant first ammendment rights tp its citizens is virtually a miracle. It troubles me that the UK seems to have its free speech rights being eroded |
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08 Jul 09 - 06:29 PM (#2675192) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Emma B In the United Kingdom, the Public Order Act 1986 prohibits, by its Part 3, expressions of racial hatred. "Racial hatred" is defined as hatred against a group of persons by reason of the group's colour, race, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origins. Section 18 of the Act says: A person who uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, abusive or insulting, is guilty of an offence if— (a) he intends thereby to stir up racial hatred, or (b) having regard to all the circumstances racial hatred is likely to be stirred up thereby. Offences under Part 3 carry a maximum sentence of seven years imprisonment or a fine or both. The United States federal government and state governments are broadly forbidden by the First Amendment of the Constitution from restricting speech Even in cases where speech encourages illegal violence, instances of incitement qualify as criminal only if the threat of violence is imminent. This strict standard prevents prosecution of many cases of incitement, including prosecution of those advocating violent opposition to the government, and those exhorting violence against racial, ethnic, or gender minorities. Not many times I can honestly say I'm so glad to be British! |
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08 Jul 09 - 07:06 PM (#2675227) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Royston People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought, which they seldom use. |
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08 Jul 09 - 07:13 PM (#2675235) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Royston Donuel, That a country back in 1776 would grant first ammendment rights tp its citizens is virtually a miracle You are right, Donuel. Too easy to be cynical and the vision of the founding fathers was nothing short of miraculous. It doesn't only speak to Americans, we all need to be upset that we have, collectively, never lived up to it. An American patriot once said that modern day America was "The last and greatest betrayal of the last and greatest of human dreams" This was not to denigrate USA, it was meant as a wake-up call. You have to have dreams. I hope Obama has shoulders broad enough to carry all our expectations. |
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10 Jul 09 - 04:05 AM (#2676349) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Refresh, just to wind Joe up.
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10 Jul 09 - 04:14 AM (#2676358) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Is this legit? FaF Website |
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10 Jul 09 - 04:17 AM (#2676362) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Well "Webpage in progress". |
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10 Jul 09 - 04:38 AM (#2676370) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer Crow Sister: yes. |
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10 Jul 09 - 09:49 AM (#2676565) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Gervase I see the fascists have taken notice - here. I had to smile at the tortured thinking behind this quote: Even though Show of Hands have disgraced themselves with their anti-BNP rhetoric, no "British" Asian or Black "British" could ever write a song such as "Roots." |
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10 Jul 09 - 10:29 AM (#2676598) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Phil Edwards Show of Hands have disgraced themselves with their anti-BNP rhetoric All of a sudden I like Show of Hands... |
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10 Jul 09 - 11:00 AM (#2676620) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Actually SoH's "Roots" is interesting, as it has (?) been adopted as some kind of right-wing volk anthem, hasn't it? |
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10 Jul 09 - 11:13 AM (#2676631) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "Even though Show of Hands have disgraced themselves with their anti-BNP rhetoric, no "British" Asian or Black "British" could ever write a song such as "Roots." There ARE certain elements, and they know who they are, who have long considered this song to be a "right wing" rant. The same crowd, I might add, who consider Countrylife by Steve Knightley to be playing into the hands of The Country Alliance, where as Countrylife, infact, laments the loss of rural housing to the 'townie' set who have taken the houses and made them into holiday homes, empty most of the year. and no, much to surprise of Messers Knightley & Beer, Roots has not been adopted as a BNP anthem, it's that sort of rumour that hinders the real work at hand |
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10 Jul 09 - 12:11 PM (#2676662) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy i do believe we have these 'people' worried. i am proud to be a part of this. we haven't really done anything yet and they are running scared!!! yey !!!!!! take care all jade x x |
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10 Jul 09 - 01:12 PM (#2676721) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge The comments of "Roots" about estuarine English, with which I wholeheartedly agree, might well make it an inconvenient song in the East London and Essex constitutency of the BNP. |
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10 Jul 09 - 01:13 PM (#2676722) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Mea culpa. THat should say "with which comments" |
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10 Jul 09 - 02:31 PM (#2676801) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Stringsinger "Freedom of Speech" in the US is often misunderstood. You can't yell "fire!" in a crowded theater. There are certain basic legal limits in place. Freedom of Speech has to do more with the expression of ideas. Dissidence is an American tradition. I hope it doesn't become an endangered species. Inflammatory speech can be protected under certain circumstances but not if it leads to violence against a group of people. The KKK in this country can be reigned in for their rhetoric. The Nazi Party is not given the freedom to express their ideas openly in a parade if they advocate violence. We have courts of law to settle this question. Dissidence which promotes a violent response by law enforcement is a violation of the American tradition of Free Speech. Warrantless wiretapping is another infringement. It's important to make a distinction between Free Speech, (the right to express unpopular ideas) from using inflammatory language to promote violence against groups or individuals. |
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11 Jul 09 - 05:20 AM (#2677300) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge As an example of the BNP's use of "free speech", over on FaF they have created a fake identity under the name "Bruce Murdoch", and are using a picture of Bruce from the cover of his 1971 vinyl to go with it, and are using that ID and that picture to post messages favourable to the BNP - something that (we can see from his posts here) he would never ever do. |
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11 Jul 09 - 05:53 AM (#2677308) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace I appreciate you pointing it out to me, Richard. I must have said something they don't like. Perhaps it was "Funk the British Nazi Party." |
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11 Jul 09 - 06:01 AM (#2677309) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: John MacKenzie The word 'Fascism' is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else... almost any English person would accept 'bully' as a synonym for 'Fascist'. George Orwell, What is Fascism?. 1944. |
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11 Jul 09 - 06:42 AM (#2677328) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace Sometimes nice don't work. |
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12 Jul 09 - 11:28 AM (#2678233) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: katlaughing Apparently the fake Bruce is using my name in vain, too, to claim I called someone a "fake." I have stayed out of these threads and had closed down my facebook acct. I will get back on there to post a similar message to this one. Thanks, Richard, for letting me know. It is despicable. |
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12 Jul 09 - 12:52 PM (#2678296) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge The fake Bruce's post has been modded off FaF - but here is the address of his profile, that will still enable you to report him http://www.facebook.com/s.php?q=Bruce+Murdoch&init=q&sid=6711d6872a0eef074f9fb7981efc12d4#/profile.php?id=100000056924968&hiq=bruce%2Cmurdoch |
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12 Jul 09 - 08:11 PM (#2678675) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: katlaughing Whomever it is has also sent some PMs on facebook, supposedly from me. Not so, folks. |
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12 Jul 09 - 08:38 PM (#2678690) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: katlaughing Using my Mudcat member photo. |
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12 Jul 09 - 08:48 PM (#2678696) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace Kat, I am trying to get an e-mail address for Facebook. They are BNP types and not very nice. When I do get an address to send info to I'll message you. Richard let me know about it, too. Thank you, Sir. I have never posted on Facebook (maybe once, but if so it was about two or three months back when I was trying to post a "Hello. I'm new to Facebook," but I don't think it took. I tried to have an account but I could never figure out exactly HOW to post so I think I didn't. Someone took the info, opened up in my name and is now playing games. I hope Facebook will help with this because I not only want those posts deleted--there are two or three attributed to me that I know nothing about--but I want the addresses of the people who did it, the info on them. And I think I will get it. |
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12 Jul 09 - 08:51 PM (#2678700) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: curmudgeon "Using my Mudcat member photo." This, I believe means that the miscreant is a Mudcat member as the photo section has limited access - Tom |
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12 Jul 09 - 08:57 PM (#2678705) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy anyone who knows you guys will know that it is not you. i am worried about those people on FB who do not visit here. i do not want your good names tarnished by these idiots. you are all people i respect and will do anything i can to help. btw you are all boring old farts and i am a silly girl,it has been awhile since anyone called me a girl, so i am happy. anyway aren't all folkies boring? though it takes a special nutter to be a morris dancer, drinking and singing till late then getting up early and putting on those bells?????????? why? or should that be how???? sorry i went off on one didn't i? take care all jade x x x x |
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12 Jul 09 - 09:27 PM (#2678723) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace They're just doing what Nazis do. They brought the big lie to us all and showed how effectively the big lie works. But, I grew up on the same kinda streets they did. Thank you for that, Jeddy, Kat and Richard. |
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12 Jul 09 - 11:22 PM (#2678762) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: katlaughing Exactly, tom. Makes ya feel all warm and fuzzy about fellow 'catters, eh? Bruce, I wandered around in the Help Centre and found this posted. It seemed to work. I've sent them a message and received an email confirmation that they had received it: http://www.facebook.com/help/contact_generic.php They do not make that very easy to find. |
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13 Jul 09 - 12:28 AM (#2678786) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace Thank you very much,Kat. I will try that but one address needsaURL. What's a URL? |
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13 Jul 09 - 01:00 AM (#2678792) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi URL: "Abbreviation of Uniform Resource Locator, the global address of documents and other resources on the World Wide Web". In other words, the address of a website which starts with http://www For what it's worth, I don't know about Fcebook, but when writing a comment on other websites, in addition to asking for your tag name, and your email address, some ask for a "URL" and some ask for a "web address". On those websites, I've left the box for web adress blank and the comment is still accepted. That might work on Facebook. |
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13 Jul 09 - 01:10 AM (#2678795) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi Lemme rephrase that. A URL is a website's address. That address starts with http://www. |
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13 Jul 09 - 01:17 AM (#2678796) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace Thanks,Azizi. |
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13 Jul 09 - 01:48 AM (#2678809) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Azizi You're welcome. I hope it works. Using someone's name on the Internet is a criminal act-or at least should be. And when a person's name is used to promote an organization like BNP-it makes the identity theft so much worse. |
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13 Jul 09 - 01:51 AM (#2678812) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace They are shit. Not to worry. |
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13 Jul 09 - 04:01 AM (#2678847) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge What I think Facebook want if possible is the address (the bit that comes up in the address bar usually at the top of the Explorer window - ie for this thread http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=121472&messages=854#2678762 ) of the offending message or identity. It is probable that falsely assuming the identity of another to assist the BNP is an actionable libel under English law - but you have to get hold of the identity of the identity thief to sue them. You may be able to do this under US "safe harbour" doctrine, which, as I understand it, provides for a common carrier to be exempt from libel liability so long as it identifies the poster of the libel. It's probably easier to do this under those provisions than the UK law as it stands after the "Motley Fool" libel cases. Heric may have more info on the US law here. If the identity thieves are using material in which you own the copyright you may be able to requir Facebook to take down the infringment by using a DIgital Millennium Copyright Act notice (US law, so again Heric maybe able to add information). I have listed some of the impersonators of which I know on the "Will the Real Richard Bridge Please Stand up" thread. |
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13 Jul 09 - 04:37 AM (#2678865) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge There is now a fake Kat Coffey too http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=100000084256506 |
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13 Jul 09 - 07:49 AM (#2678976) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Jeri I don't know how it works, but I'd guess this guy could be sued and Facebook would have to provide information pertinent to the case, such as identity and/or tracking information. I am not a lawyer though. I'm thinking that, knowing the nature of Facebook, they know a LOT of stuff about this person. It might be in their best interest to find a way to ban him. Wikipedia seems to have found a way to stop him, and at least once there, he was identified by his IP address. Things you post, including photos, are copyrighted intellectual property. You can't copyright a name though (although you can register a trademark). That this nut takes out multiple memberships pretending he's other people shows me 1) he thinks he's worthless as himself (he's likely right), and 2) it's more about trolling/attention seeking than it is about anything else. This troll has no identity of his own and no apparent life unless someone is irritated with him, and he does a ridiculous amount of work just to piss people off. Think about what he's had to do to create those identities: gather personal info, steal and sometimes alter photos. What sort of person would do all that? I would strongly advise those of you who wish to give him the attention he craves find some sort of way to do it where HE CAN'T SEE HOW FAMOUS HE IS. ...then, sue his ass. |
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13 Jul 09 - 08:02 AM (#2678989) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Jeri, the BNP clone or clones are not merely or even mainly attention seekers. They are there to do the sinister work of the BNP. |
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13 Jul 09 - 08:11 AM (#2678996) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Jeri By looking completely impotent as himself and fairly desperate? I'm not seeing it, Richard. If this is all the BNP can do, why does anybody really give a shit? |
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13 Jul 09 - 11:42 AM (#2679133) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge They seek to impede progress with "Folk against Fascism" - not least by causing question marks over the bona fides of the real identities of the supporting members, and inhibiting inter-member communication. They seek to frighten people on whose doors they might knock, people who suddenly realise that the BNP might be able to trace them. THey want to silence them, by fair means or foul. |
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13 Jul 09 - 11:43 AM (#2679134) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: katlaughing I agree with you, Jeri. To me, this just seems a sick way of drawing attention because 1) has to be a Mudcat member to access the photos and 2) use of a controversial issue is a convenient way to fill the need for attention even more. It's reminiscent of many years ago when someone started a new "katlaughing" membership here and supposedly posted as me. Thankfully that was stopped in its tracks. If facebook doesn't remove my picture, I will look into further action. |
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13 Jul 09 - 08:59 PM (#2679575) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy they have started to use a different tack on me now. they are being really nasty about everyone else but trying to be nice to me, in order for me to think they are really ok. we all know that these people are very lonely and have no life of their own, but what i can't figure out is how they think this sudden change towards me will get me to think any different of them. i have three messages today, it is a wonder these people have time to eat or anything else. just so everyone is clear i hate what the BNP stands for and what they are trying to do, not only to our music but our country too. they want us divided i will not let them divy up my country like it is a piece of pie. the best thing about a pie is anything can be put inside it, like this country, it would be very bland if you only got the pastry. we would lose so much if they get their way. we are fighting for something very special and unique. sorry i got quite carried away, can you tell? take care all jade x x x x |
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15 Jul 09 - 04:37 PM (#2680995) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,ken mellor The definition of a patriot is a person who loves his own country. The definition of a nationalist is a person who hates all other countries. P.S. I like folk music but why is most of it depressing. |
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15 Jul 09 - 04:53 PM (#2681005) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Vic Smith Andy Turner's post on the Folk Against Fascism thread on the fRoots Forum makes interesting reading and shows the tactics that BNP supporters are currently using. |
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15 Jul 09 - 05:48 PM (#2681025) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Rifleman (inactive) "and shows the tactics that BNP supporters are currently using" nothing original here, but then again that's one of the things the BNP can never be accused of, originality....oh and creativity. Give'em enough rope etc, etc..... |
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15 Jul 09 - 07:21 PM (#2681082) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy i agree that with enough rope... but at the same time we cannot let them get away with lying to the public, anymore than we can let them get away with the violent and bulling tacticts(?) they use. as long as we sound reasonable and are being truthful the world will see what monsters the diehards of the BNP are truely like. take care all jade x x x x ps has anyone heard when the merch will be ready? x |
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15 Jul 09 - 07:33 PM (#2681091) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Emma B This - "It is possible that by remaining friends with "Folk Against Fascism" your identity could appear on "RedWatch", making public aparance less safe." is a direct threat as far as I can see - pretty awful spelling too :) |
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15 Jul 09 - 07:52 PM (#2681102) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy no wonder i couldn't find it i was looking at the wrong post!! duh!!! i am jealous, his message was better than the ones i have been getting, at least his was original. mine just copy huge amounts of stuff written here. thinking about it there are only a few who can actually read and write so maybe i am lucky that my troll knows how to. not to mention copy and paste. take care all... and please troll write to me soon, i miss your witty charisma(?) jade x x x |
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16 Jul 09 - 08:15 AM (#2681342) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick Earlier on in this thread I posted a link to a Conservative organisation called There's Nothing British About the BNP. I did that because I felt the only way of tackling the menace of fascism is through a broad United Front, including absolutely everybody who believes in liberty and democracy, is anti-racist etc. That is still roughly where I'm at. However, I've had a communication from TNBATBNP which has caused me some food for thought. You can read it at http://www.nothingbritish.com/ . The communication consists of 10 questions to BNP leaders, most of which I would call fair comment. But question 4 reads:- "Won't your policy of seizing land and natural assets for communal ownership, and the redistribution of the ownership of British businesses replace the free market and rule of law with socialism and bring our economy to its knees?" Sounds as though TNBATBNP doesn't understand the difference between socialism and national socialsim. |
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16 Jul 09 - 08:28 AM (#2681356) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace FUsK the BNP. |
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16 Jul 09 - 08:32 AM (#2681360) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace '"It is possible that by remaining friends with "Folk Against Fascism" your identity could appear on "RedWatch", making public aparance less safe."' Fick RedWatch, too. I do NOT understand why people are afraid of garbage like the BNP or RedWatch. People never meet street trash before? |
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16 Jul 09 - 08:44 AM (#2681365) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer this is why people take the BNP and Redwatch seriously. |
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16 Jul 09 - 09:05 AM (#2681383) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick Ruth. Redwatch must be one of the most verminous sites on the Internet. Alec MacFadden, one of the subjects of the Guardian article you refer to, is a TUC activist on Merseyside, where I live. Within the past few months, Redwatch has again posted his address, with an invitation for far right nutters to pay him a visit. As a result of this, armed police were stationed outside his house for a whole week. Charming country we live in. |
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16 Jul 09 - 09:07 AM (#2681386) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Emma B " I do NOT understand why people are afraid of garbage like the BNP or RedWatch. People never meet street trash before?" Redwatch is a nazi website that reproduces photographs and home details of anyone who does not share their racist outlook. Some of those targeted are called "scum", others "retards", but ALL are being set up for intimidation and in some cases violence. In many cases the pictures are unidentified but linked to some are names and addresses, car registrations, phone numbers and even workplaces One Redwatch target was the Yorkshire Evening Post journalist Pete Lazenby. An NUJ activist with a proud history of exposing racism and fascism, Lazenby has long been a thorn in the side of Yorkshire's nazis. "We need to find this reporter fast," read one messageon the Redwatch 'closed' Yahoo group. "If we can scare this cunt off then we might get an easier time instead of being slagged off and made to look a bunch of muppets." Alongside the personal information on their targets, the secret members of the Yahoo Redwatch site are offered bomb manuals. The Anarchist Cookbook, simple light-bomb designs and a guide to making plastic explosives are all available. 'Redwatch was originally published in paper form by the far right racialist group Combat 18 in March 1992, when its slogan was "oderint dum metuant": "let them hate as long as they fear". Anyone listed on Redwatch (and their families) may be at increased risk of violence from far right supporters. There have been many reports to the police of people suffering death threats after their details have appeared on the website. A Leeds teacher who complained about a far right activist, Tony White, leafleting his school, had his details listed on Redwatch, after the jailing of White. Far right supporters then firebombed the teacher's car. Merseyside TUC organiser Alec McFadden received death threats shortly after his details appeared on the website. At precisely the same time, Joe Owens, an official Merseyside BNP candidate with several convictions for violent offences, began sending him e-mails gloating that he had photographic details of his house, car, and family. Since standing as a Respect candidate in the May 2006 elections, McFadden has been physically attacked, including being stabbed in the face, in front of his two young daughters at his home' - wiki Redwatch is hosted by a US server, so outside the jurisdiction of the British authorities, and as a result it is protected under the First Amendment to the US Constitution, which enshrines Freedom of Speech - however the recent test case here may make that subject to review While the Redwatch site carries a disclaimer, which states that the site is not intended to target people for attack, this is unlikely to be a defence. Their and Combat 18's history of violence means that those identified on Redwatch can legitimately believe that they are under threat. Angela Eagle MP in a Commons debate urged ministers to take action against Redwatch, pointing out: "There appears to be a pattern of violence which is aimed at individuals who are targeted by this website which cannot simply be a coincidence..." Kevin Watmough, a veteran nazi, runs Redwatch as well as the Blood and Honour site, which offers advice on how to make bombs similar to those used in the terror attacks of 7 July |
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16 Jul 09 - 09:31 AM (#2681396) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Emma B " I do NOT understand why people are afraid of garbage like the BNP or RedWatch. People never meet street trash before?" Redwatch also has a Polish site hosted also by the American based Dreamhost** In Warsaw 2 years ago an activist named Maciek was critically injured and almost killed when two nazis stabbed, kicked, and pepper sprayed him after Maciek's personal data appeared on redwatch.info - Attempted murder of an antifascist Writing in response to the existence of the Polish Redwatch site, which mirrors the British site closely, lawyers from Proskauer Rose LLP say "The content of Redwatch's site is not protected speech under the First Amendment because it constitutes a true threat," says the firm's report. "The right to free speech is not absolute. Although the First Amendment does safeguard speech advocating violence, well-established law dictates that the right to free speech does not include threats of violence." Precedent for taking action against websites can be found in Planned Parenthood v American Coalition of Life Activists (ACLA). A court in the US found that the anti-abortion group went beyond free speech in listing the names and addresses of abortion doctors on a website called the "Nuremberg Files". ACLA claimed that the website merely collated information on doctors for possible use in legal action against those involved in abortion. The court disagreed and viewed the site as threatening, especially as two of the listed doctors were subsequently killed. Black lines were put through their pictures on the site. Although the ACLA website did not explicitly call for violence against these doctors, the court took into account the history of "pro-life" violence against abortion doctors The Polish Government has twice asked its American counterparts to close down Redwatch. On both occasions the site was removed. ** "DreamHost strongly believes in the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States, which guarantees its citizens freedom of speech and freedom of the press, among other things (both of which can apply to websites). We made a business decision long ago to value freedom of speech above any potential offense someone might take over the content of a site hosted by us." |
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16 Jul 09 - 10:50 AM (#2681447) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace I am not taking issue with you, Emma. However, I am of the opinion that because the police do not really help it's imperative to deal with the leaders--those who give the orders--not the assholes who carry out those orders. Why leave the 'brains' alone? They are even more guilty than their followers. If a rattlesnake is gonna bite you, there isn't much sense cutting off the tail. That just makes the noise. The business end is the head. |
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16 Jul 09 - 02:25 PM (#2681616) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Actually the UK government does have the tools to prevent UK access (for the most part) to the Redwatch site and even to bar all Dreamhost sites from (almost all) UK ISPs. It is called "cleanfeed" and ISPA "encourages" all UK ISPs to use it. There is an official list of proscribed sites. If the user tries to access a proscribed site he gets "404 site not found" and the attempt to access the site is counted. ISPs say that the IP address of the user is not logged, but I have never believed that. It was designed to disable access to child pornography sites, but there is nothing at all to stop Dreamhost sites being added to the proscribed list. Since it is -er- only semi official no doubt the Government could deny their involvement too. Just google "cleanfeed" and run down the lists a way. There are other things also called cleanfeed but this one its there too. |
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16 Jul 09 - 02:40 PM (#2681634) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick "Redwatch is hosted by a US server, so outside the jurisdiction of the British authorities, and as a result it is protected under the First Amendment to the US Constitution, which enshrines Freedom of Speech - however the recent test case here may make that subject to review" Being hosted in America doesn't make it fall outside UK jurisdiction. The site orginates in Britain and the perpetrators are therefore, liable to prosecution under UK law. |
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16 Jul 09 - 02:51 PM (#2681647) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Emma B I'm not taking issue with you either Peace but just yelling expletives (deleted or otherwise) is just reacting on the same leval as the street thugs and not exposing the true nature of the BNP and its more covert organizations. Pax? |
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16 Jul 09 - 03:43 PM (#2681691) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy and other one. is this accurate richard? It's so sad to see the failed musician Bruce still losing his composure on the cat. I see Emma B now wants to join in the fun and games ! I had hoped they would have taken up my offer of dropping the subject of the BNP on the cat, sadly not. Well if that is the way they wish to play, we can all continue in the fun and gaiety. As I said, I am a member of the BNP and mudcat, I never discuss my politics on the cat, just my love of folk music. If they leave my politics alone, then we can all be happy. I received two pm's today on the cat which saddened me to no end, great people, but a touch meddlesome. I am also a member of Red watch. Hope you have a wonderful evening. George Davis this was from 'richard bridge'. how stupid are they that they are forgetting whose name they are using???????? take care all jade x x x x |
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16 Jul 09 - 03:56 PM (#2681698) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer Can I make the observation that I don't really think it's particularly productive to be constantly re-printing and getting into a flap over the messages obviously being sent by one rather sad individual? Apart from anything else, it diverts attention from the real issues at hand. You're giving them what they want: attention. The line we've taken on the FAF site is delete and ignore, and I would strongly suggest you adopt the same approach. If they stop getting the attention they want, they will get bored. |
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16 Jul 09 - 04:04 PM (#2681701) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) "If they stop getting the attention they want, they will get bored." Don't want to sound too rude, but as a non-Facebooker, I'm afraid I find it frustrating and boring too. Looking forward to updates on the FaF website, merch & gigs though, RuthA. Please could someone keep us updated here, if anything worthwhile occurs over there? Cheers. |
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16 Jul 09 - 04:45 PM (#2681716) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer Crow Sister - currently in the pipeline: - the website, which is currently a holding page, is being expanded to host a merch page. T-shirts and stickers are printed, badges are on the way, and flyers are being printed. - an event pack for people who want to put on FAF gigs will be available for download from the site, or if that's a bit labour-intensive, we can send it out ready-made. - a big gig, or series of gigs, based around St George's Day/ May Day 2010, which will also involve lots of people around the country running their own FAF events. The details for this are currently being hammered out, but we'll be able to tell you more about it really soon. So that's what we're currently up to... |
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16 Jul 09 - 05:54 PM (#2681765) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Gervase Ah, tee shirts - want one asap. Where do we get 'em from? |
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16 Jul 09 - 11:56 PM (#2681931) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace "It's so sad to see the failed musician Bruce still losing his composure on the cat." That ain't my composure. That's me. My music now is better than it's ever been, and had I been so failed the BNP (FaCK the BNP) would never have used my ID to laud themselves on Facebook. As to my meaning: foock with me and I'll deal with your leadership, not the asshole(s) who try to intimidate me. OR kill me. I will give as good as I get. And, if you think I don't mean that or will be able to carry it out, think codicil. Motherfuckers likely don't know what that is. I will explain. It's a little add-on to a will that reads, "In the event of my death, please take care of this stuff for me: YOU are that stuff. Now, back to the regular program: FyCK the BNP. That's the glove. Next, the gauntlet. Richard Bridge would NEVER have said that to me, about me, or at me. You, motherfucker are now the person I will seek. And I mean that. You do not scare me nor do you intimidate me. All you do is piss me off. I am a nasty sonuvabitch when I'm pissed off. Send your friends. I'd love to meet them. And please stop trying to drag others into it. Bruce Murdoch |
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17 Jul 09 - 12:11 AM (#2681937) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace "As I said, I am a member of the BNP and mudcat, I never discuss my politics on the cat, just my love of folk music. If they leave my politics alone, then we can all be happy." Whoever you are: IF you mean that, stay out of the BS section. Your problem will then be solved. PS Your threat to me about two weeks ago--mention of the FN--I noticed that. I also noticed you copy and pasted that from the same site I cut and pasted back to you. Not only are you attempting to be scary, but you succeeded. NOW, I'm looking for you. |
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17 Jul 09 - 12:13 AM (#2681938) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Joe Offer So, we've established that Bruce Murdoch wants to have sex with the BNP. He's said that over and over again. I wonder why he finds them so attractive.... |
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17 Jul 09 - 12:40 AM (#2681946) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace Well, Joe, you have obviously never understood bestiality--but, then, I have never understood voyeurism. |
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17 Jul 09 - 01:28 AM (#2681956) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Joe Offer Well, Bruce. About all you seem to be able to say on the issue is "Funck the BNP" - over and over and over again. It's, like, really tedious. The intellectual sophistication of your argument is right about at the level of a Sturmabteilung brownshirt thug. Are you thinking of enlisting? Better yet, how about trying rational discussion? -Joe Offer- |
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17 Jul 09 - 01:34 AM (#2681958) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace OK, Joe. I'll represent me and you represent you. What do you wish to discuss? Should it be the BNP? Their political platform which is racist? Their solutions to the immigrant population in the UK? Their skimming of people's IDs? Their arseholes who intimidate folks? Should we have a rational discussion? If so, please tell me the parameters and just how polite we are supposed to be. Then explain why you allow Nazis to roost here. Until then, FUCK the BNP. |
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17 Jul 09 - 01:47 AM (#2681964) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace On sceond thought, you're right. My over-use of the word fuck aimed at this Nazi organization is deplorable. I will henceforth cease and desist. From now on I will say, "Shag the BNP!" (For those of you who don't understand the word 'shag', it means fuck in plain English.") Howzat? |
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17 Jul 09 - 02:17 AM (#2681970) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Joe Offer Well, to be honest, Bruce, I expected you to be able to come up with some ideas or information on the subject. All you seem to be able to do, is say the same thing over and over again - be it "fuck" or "shag," it has very little intellectual content. I was brought up to believe that name-calling was what thugs did when they weren't smart enough to defend their point of view. Don't get me wrong - I disapprove of the BNP every bit as strongly as you do. But if all we do to oppose the BNP and other Nazi movments is to walk around like baboons and say, "Fuck dis shit," then our argument lacks credibility. In fact, we sound just like the baboons on the other side. If our goal is to neutralize the neo-Nazis, then we have to be a class act. We won't beat them by playing the game by their rules. -Joe Offer- |
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17 Jul 09 - 02:39 AM (#2681979) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace OK. Joe, tell me what their 'rules' are? I realize you dislike me saying FTBNP or STBNP. Would you rather I engage them in conversation and dignify them as being worthy of discourse--just like they are a real political party with the basic good of people in mind? Would you like me to say, "Gee, BNP, I am so sorry I pissed you off enough that you used my name on Facebook to say shit I never did say?" Would you like me to apologize to these motherfuckers who have threatened me? No damned way, Joe. I am aware you can't block them, but I know you could block me. Do what you have to do. Until then, I will not be anything BUT rude to the arseholes. People with that political philosophy have in the past done as they said they would do. You know the history as well as I do, so I won't enumerate the events. Even Chamberlain might in retrospect admit he made a mistake. Nice doesn't work with these 'people'. They embody and exemplify the evil in humans and by doing so place themselves beyond the pale. You see, sarcasm doesn't work on me. But being sarcastic and then appealing to my sense of 'social responsibility' which was denied in the first place by the sarcasm--well, that doesn't work either. You go ahead and explain the 'action wing' of groups like the BNP. Explain the types of attacks they propogate. Explain the people they have beaten up, attacked in various way, denigrated. Explain that to me. THEN, Joe, you and I could talk. But to suggest that I should modify my thoughts or my languagewhen they still see genocide as an answer to their problems--WTF do you think I am? You want polite from me for them? Y'ain't go0nna get it. Not yesterday, not today, not tomorrow. |
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17 Jul 09 - 02:53 AM (#2681983) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace "Well, to be honest, Bruce, I expected you to be able to come up with some ideas or information on the subject." I quit doing that three years back, Joe. You and a few others wanted then to have 'reasoned discourse' with the BNP. I posted their connection to Stormfront. Posted links to articles from the UK press. Posted--I think--a link to their website where they espoused their philosophy. Other people did, too. Maybe you missed it. In the event you did, some people on THIS thread have done so, too. Give it all a read when you can stop worrying about me for a minute or two. You may see some sort of 'good' outcome by talking rationally with Nazis. I don't. Tell me what ideas YOU have about the BNP. You and I seem to know I have none. So, having said that--what with me being the same as them and all--let's hear YOU reason with the unreasonable. |
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17 Jul 09 - 03:19 AM (#2681989) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer Gervase, as soon as the merch page is up and running, you'll be able to buy on-line. We've been taking financial and legal advice about constituting ourselves and have just set up a company bank account, so as soon as our lovely and clever IT types have finished building the page, we can start distributing the merch properly, along with event packs. This seemed much better than powering ahead all guns blazing, using ebay and personal bank accounts - this way it's all done properly from the start. |
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17 Jul 09 - 04:30 AM (#2682010) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: theleveller I hope we'll be seeing a lot of t-shirts, posters etc. around at clubs, festivals and concerts in the future. I already have printouts of the logo displayed in house and caravan windows and on my guitar case. |
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17 Jul 09 - 07:16 AM (#2682082) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy it is true bruce that we cannot talk to the hardcore element of the BNP. but for those that have been taken in by the lies,for those that have been bullied into suportting them by family or friends, we have a duty to try not to be too heavy handed. if only we could round up the hardcore thugs and give them the same treatment that they want to give others. these are the ones we have to worry about, they will not be talked round or reasoned with. on the subject of posting the PMs i am getting on FB, i am sorry if you think i am giving them attention but what i am actually doing is taking the piss! they make me laugh so much that i thought you all might like a good laugh too. my thinking is that if these morons are busy posting stupid messages on a pc then they are not out there throwing firebombs or beating up anyone. they are safely tucked up at home. i know which i would rather give them attention for. the 'if you ignore them they will go away' philosophy is just wishful thinking, they will just go to more extremes to get the attention they desire. no offence to anyone and you all have my respect here for the fighting you are all doing. take care all jade x x x |
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17 Jul 09 - 07:38 AM (#2682097) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Yes, I am torn between wanting to deny them the oxygen of publicity (or even of oxygen) and demonstrating my scorn, too. I am however more concerned that, while opposing them, we should not give them credence as a serious political party. |
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17 Jul 09 - 07:39 AM (#2682098) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge and a well earned 900 too |
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17 Jul 09 - 10:47 AM (#2682203) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Stringsinger Let 'em talk. The best defense are the facts. Here in the States, at a KKK rally recently, there were counter demonstrators dressed in clown suits. Whenever the cry of "white power" came up, the demonstrators shouted "white flour" and threw it into the air. One KKK'er got mad and went after a demonstrator. A cop nailed the KKK guy and arrested him. Humor is a great weapon. BNP can stand for "bollocks new position" or something like that. Write some songs about the BNP and their tin pot soldiering. The BNP and the BJP have roots in common. |
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17 Jul 09 - 11:25 AM (#2682224) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick Richard Bridge. "I am however more concerned that, while opposing them, we should not give them credence as a serious political party." The BNP are not a serious political party. They never have been and they never will be. Unfortunately, their leadership has come to realise that they will get nowhere unless they at least try and look like one. What's worse, they've managed to fool quite a lot of people. That's why it's necessary to expose them and to counter their propaganda at every opportunity. |
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17 Jul 09 - 01:59 PM (#2682336) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer "my thinking is that if these morons are busy posting stupid messages on a pc then they are not out there throwing firebombs or beating up anyone. they are safely tucked up at home. i know which i would rather give them attention for. the 'if you ignore them they will go away' philosophy is just wishful thinking, they will just go to more extremes to get the attention they desire." The stuff we've been experiencing on Facebook is playground crap, to be frank. The person who has been winding you up is not a firebomber, he is a sad little no-mark who is getting his jollies because you respond to him. As I say, posting the stuff here and making it into a big deal really does pull focus away from the real issues and trivialises the discussion. Which exactly what he wants. |
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17 Jul 09 - 02:00 PM (#2682337) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Joe Offer Well, if the BNP can get votes, they're a "serious political party." No, you won't be able to reason with the "party faithful," and I don't suggest that you even try - but most of the people who vote BNP, are not part of the party organization. For the most part, they vote because they have been hoodwinked. I wouldn't ask people to reason with the BNP - that's impossible. I ask that you reason against the BNP and stop the stupid baboon shit. These hoodwinked voters need information, so they can see that there are alternatives that will satisfy their needs and calm their fears. If all they hear is angry people shouting "fuck dis shit" in opposition to the BNP, they'll just cower in fear and hide in the welcoming arms of the smooth-talking, gentle-sounding BNP. DO fight the BNP - but fight them with facts. -Joe- |
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17 Jul 09 - 03:43 PM (#2682415) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy ruth i think we will have to agree to disagree on this. , i highly respect what you are doing with FaF and i cannot wait to get my t shirt and stickers and support you in any way possible. i am more concerned with the BNP getting any sort of control on a regional level than them getting into parliment. they are a joke but as long as they have followers then we must fight however we feel the need. if we agree that most people who vote for them are being conned then that is where we must start. i believe that by showing what they write and think alot of people will wonder just what they were thinking of. most of the messages on any of the BNP websites are just as purile and stupid but it shows the mentality of those we are dealing with. anyway take care much respect to you all jade x x x |
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18 Jul 09 - 05:49 AM (#2682706) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick Joe. Over here we have something called the Monster Raving Loony Party. No-one would in a million years call them a serious political party. Yet they stand in elections and they get votes. I argue that the BNP is not a serious political party because their entire stance is based on kneejerk reactions, rather than serious thought out policies. Here's just one example among many; up to about 1960, we had something called national service, where every male was conscripted into the armed forces for two years. You had similar in the USA, but I can't remember what they called it. It was eventually wound up because it had become redundant to the needs of modern warfare. Plus, it was an expensive drain on national resources. Even so, a lot of people thought NS was a good idea. They claimed it built character, discipline and all that stuff. The fact that the country was crawling with teddy boys and knife fights might have suggested otherwise, but never mind. The BNP plan to reintroduce NS. As far as I can see, they have given no consideration to the costing implications involved in employing millions of conscripts for two years, nor have they stopped to wonder just what these conscripts would do. Always assuming of course that the Afghanistan and Iraq wars are ancient history by then, and these jokers haven't started any new ones. That's what I mean when I say the BNP is not a serious political party. They have no serious policies or systematic thought out strategies. Equally, they are short on serious rhetoric. EG., the Daily Telegraph recently asked Nick Griffin what they would do with so called home grown aliens, whom they couldn't deport because they had no other country to go to. Griffin said "Oh, I don't know. Drop them out of a plane over Africa". Then there was his brilliant idea of sinking boatloads of illegal migrants and throwing them life rafts. Whether he would drop the rafts before or after they'd sunk the boats he didn't say. But that's not serious politics. It's the sort of uninformed barroom gossip you can hear in practically any pub in the land on a Saturday night. For the matter of that, no serious party would consider harbouring the assemblage of thugs and skinheads which make up such a large proportion of the hard core of the membership of the BNP. No, the BNP are a serious threat, not because they are a serious political party, but precisely because they are not a serious political party. Beyond that, I agree totally with your estimation of the "f**k this shit brigade". I actually feel sorry for most of the people who vote BNP. They do so because the Labour Party is nowadays a crumbling effigy of its former self and because neither of the other two parties can offer them a reasonable alternative. They do so because they see a world where their local industries have collapsed, and in many cases where their local communities have gone the same way. They do so because they can't get jobs and they can't get houses, and they see, or think they see, an avalanche of foreign workers taking their jobs and undercutting their wages. And they see a parliament stuffed with careerist politicians on the take. Yes, we need serious arguments. We need to show people that migrant workers don't pose a menace to their own well being; that far right governments invariably end up repressing thir own people; and that however bad the present national and poltical malaise may be, voting BNP is like taking strychnine for a common cold. It doesn't solve anything and it will leave you in a far worse state than you were before. |
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18 Jul 09 - 06:09 AM (#2682712) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Penny S. Last night I realised that the problem is more complex than it may appear at first. There are people out there who have peculiar beliefs which support their ability to be taken in by the BNP or other groups. This does not just apply to political groups. It can apply to any other sort of belief - in UFOs to be harmless, in some forms of religion. I was listening to the radio, and someone spoke of a man aged 85 who responded to another's statement that putting the BNP into power was not what his grandfather fought for with the declaration that it was precisely what he had fought for. I very much doubt that that was what he thought at the time. (Assuming even that he supported Mosely? Went along with the upperclass Nazis?) People pick up ideas from others they mix with, the things they read and make their own world view. All of us do it. Then we assume that that view is the norm. Football supporters say that an internbational match unites the nation. Broadcasters assume that their audience thinks morris is funny. Morris dancers assume that what they do is interesting to others. etc. Most of us test what we believe against the real world and adjust as necessary. People who get drawn into odd little groups don't. They can believe that Earth was populated by strange beings called thetans. That god requires women to have their private parts removed. And so on. Where beliefs are supported by the group, it is going to be difficult to shift. Even people who aren't yet in the group, but merely sympathise with the publicly shown beliefs of the group, are going to feel challenged in a way that drives them further in if they are made to feel that they are somehow wrong in what they think. That the wrongness is part of themselves, instead of a superficial error which is not essential to their self image. BNP supporters will say things like "I'm not educated, but ...*" as though education is a fault they do not share which has brainwashed the liberals who oppose them. This makes a defence against any attempt to inform them of reality. *I think what followed the but was a claim that god** put the diferent races in different places where he intended them to stay. I don't know which god, or the source. **I use lowercase for any deity I suspect of non-existence or veniality. Quite ordinary and nice people will come out with very suspect opinions, and it can be very hard to find ways of suggesting alternatives without making them feel attacked. If they have decided at some point that that nice Mr Griffin may be able to present their views in important places, any exposure of the real nature of said person could be seen as such an attack - and Griffin has already been working on that line. Not easy. even without the threats. Penny |
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18 Jul 09 - 11:26 AM (#2682829) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: SPB-Cooperator Fred, Their policy to reintroduce national service makes perfect sense, especially if you read the second part that says that everyone completing National service must keep a firearm. Imaging the skinhead louts and combat 18 thugs being issued with semi-automatic rifles.... what do you think they will want to do with them??? |
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18 Jul 09 - 11:54 AM (#2682837) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick SPB. I didn't say they haven't got an agenda, and part of that agenda undoubtedly includes an armed militia to round up and intern all the people they don't like. But arming every thug in the land does not represent a set of viable properly thought out policies. In fact, they do not need a set of policies because they appeal to the kneejerkers and the pissed off, and the people who think the country is going to hell in a handcart, not to people who are liable to stop and think and question where this is going to take us. Not that there's anything new in this of course. The nazis didn't get into power on the strength of an informative manifesto. They did it by a combination of thuggery and appeals to national identity, a demagogic mob orator, and a pack of lies about the Jews. When the chips are down, that is exactly what the BNP will do. I think it was Trotsky who said anyone voting fascist is not making a conscious informed decision. They are doing the equivalent of jumping over a cliff with their hands over their eyes. |
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18 Jul 09 - 12:34 PM (#2682855) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Stringsinger Nazisim came out of the ashes of economic deprivation in Germany in the 20's. There is always a chance that a system of reaction will develop when times are hard. People who are suffering want to blame someone so they form a political party. Jews were scapegoats because it was convenient to do this. The "man under the curtain" is corporate fascism which is slowly taking over certain parts of the world. As long as corporate elites control the economies of the world, they will bolster the rise of groups such as the BNP. It's important to focus attention on the real culprits, the CEO's and the politicians who are greedy, the policies in governments which are controlled by the military industrial complex and the suppression of unions by ruthless business interests. Here's where FAF should be concentrating their efforts. Then maybe the KKK and the BNP will be seen for what they really are. |
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19 Jul 09 - 09:23 AM (#2683268) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lizzie Cornish 1 I agree totally with Bruce, FUCcK the BNP and all who sail in her. I fully understand him wanting to say that over and over again, too, because hell, he's had his identity stolen, and these absolute b*stards are putting down terrible things, as if they were coming from Bruce himself, which they are NOT. They're also doing this to other people in here to. What the f**k are Facebook playing at?????????? I've just written to Facebook, via kat's link above, thanks Kat...and have given them a link into this page. I've also told them that they will undoubtedly be having the biggest lawsuit ever dreamed of coming their way, unless they do something about these evil people, because in letting them carry on doing what they are doing on there, the owners of this site must surely be condoning it...and are therefore, in my eyes at least, as guilty as the scum who are doing this in the first place. Richard, could you give us a Lawyer's view of it all, please. CAN Facebook be taken to court over allowing this? It would be a good idea to have a separate thread perhaps, as a petition to send to Facebook, if Joe is OK with that, asking people to 'sign' it and put down their views on what they think of Facebook for allowing this to happen in the first place. In the meantime, could I ask EVERYONE to write to Facebook via kat's link above...because it goes directly to them. Again, FUlCK the BNP. Thank you. |
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19 Jul 09 - 09:29 AM (#2683271) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lizzie Cornish 1 kat's link to the Facebook 'Help' page... http://www.facebook.com/help/contact_generic.php FACEBOOK CONTACT PAGE - Please CONTACT them! |
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19 Jul 09 - 09:33 AM (#2683275) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Also, please put the Contact address on your Facebook page, together with a short explanation as to what is going on with the BNP and how Facebook is choosing to NOT ensure the safety of their members from having their identities stolen, then used on their site. http://www.facebook.com/help/contact_generic.php I'm sure they've made more than enough money from all their advertising to get the best lawyers on to this, and the best computer guys too, to work out some system that does not allow this to happen. Someone send for Billy Bragg, immediately! Perhaps Billy could write a blog about this on his pages. |
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19 Jul 09 - 12:56 PM (#2683338) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Goodness, that didn't take long then! :0) Seems I've upset 'Carrie Ann' on Facebook..Of course, I can't access Carrie's page at all. Shame, huh? I guess they didn't like the message on my page. Tough. >>>"Well how are you keeping ? Please go and check this profile out http://www.facebook.com/s.php?q=lizzie+cornish&init=quick#/profile.php?id=100000075983192&ref=profile It's a rough old tart who wears too much make up ( must need it) and seems to think cheap yellow bleeched hair is in !! Also note the slack skin on the jaws. Some women just don't know when to give up !" Talk soon, love as always Carrie"<<< |
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19 Jul 09 - 01:17 PM (#2683344) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Sorry to keep coming in here, but this may be of use to some people: Taken from here:Facebook Safety "Facebook aspires to be an environment where people can interact safely with their friends and the people around them. We have implemented many safety and privacy controls on Facebook as part of our goal to enable people to share their information with only the people they want to see it. And we are constantly improving our systems for identifying and removing inappropriate content and people from the site.......... Despite Facebook's safety and privacy controls, Facebook cannot guarantee that its site is entirely free of illegal, offensive, pornographic or otherwise inappropriate material, or that its members will not encounter inappropriate or illegal conduct from other members. Consequently, you may encounter such content and conduct. You can help Facebook by notifying us of any nudity, pornography, harassment or unwelcome contact by clicking on the "Report" link located on pages throughout the site. Where confidential complaints are made through this site reporting tool, Facebook will do its best to remove the offending content or conduct and to warn or, as appropriate, to bar from the site those transmitting such content or engaging in such conduct within 24 hours of receiving your complaint. Where complaints about nudity, pornography, harassment or unwelcome contact are made by independent email to abuse@facebook.com Facebook will acknowledge receipt of your complaint and begin addressing your complaint within 24 hours of receipt. Facebook will report back to you within 72 hours of receiving your email complaint to inform you of the steps Facebook has taken to address the complaint. Click here to contact the Independent Safety and Security Examiner (ISSE) regarding Facebook's complaint handling procedures. Please note that if you have not previously made a complaint to Facebook you should not use this link. Facebook is solely responsible for complaint handling, and you should address all complaints or reports of abuse directly to Facebook using the procedures described on this page. We need all users to report suspicious people and inappropriate content they encounter on Facebook. We strongly encourage users under the age of 18 to talk to their parents or a responsible adult immediately if someone online says or does something to make them feel uncomfortable or threatened in any way. Remember that although using fake names is a violation of the Facebook Terms of Use, people are not always who they say they are. You should always be careful when sending friend requests to, or accepting friend requests from, people you do not know in the real world. It is also always risky to meet anyone in person whom you don't know through real world friends. Always follow these important safety tips when using Facebook:..." |
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20 Jul 09 - 04:47 AM (#2683718) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Royston Very well done, Lizzie. As some of us have been explaining patiently for weeks, the BNP Facebook troll is clearly also a Midcat reader. The troll's reward for its efforts is seeing people get wound up here. You've just given it a good week or so's onanistic reward with your rants. I've been on the frontline of anti-fascism for nearly twenty years and if you lot are going to get this unsettled by a bit of name tom-foolery on bookface then you either need to get over you |
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20 Jul 09 - 04:49 AM (#2683720) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Royston Hit submit by accident ...Then you either need to get over yourselves and concentrate on what's important about this anti-fascist effort, or just put down your FaF stickers and go back to what you were doing before. But stop wasting your effort and time by feeding the troll by bringing this diversion to this forum. |
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20 Jul 09 - 05:49 AM (#2683738) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Thank you, Einstein, but I had worked out they watch Mudcat all the time. Doh! I put those details on because they're yet more ways to complain directly to Facebook. Myspace had a problem years back with people taking over identities, it was happening all the time. messages being sent out in their name etc...That happens very rarely these days, very rarely, so, if Myspace can sort it out, so can Facebook. It seems they're not that bothered though. They damn well should be. Sorry, I disagree with you entirely on this one, because the more people who know, and the more who complain, then the greater the pressure on Facebook to do something about it. And as for the insults he/she threw at me, which I posted above, heck...it coosts me a small fortune to look this cheap! LOL |
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20 Jul 09 - 05:52 AM (#2683740) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Actually, the details Lizzie posts above about Facebook (alleged) policy and the associated contact details are useful. |
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20 Jul 09 - 06:38 AM (#2683762) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Georgina Boyes There are reports in the papers today that the two BNP MEPs intend to use some of their allowances to fund a "Community Chest" which will give grants to support St George's Day activities in the North East and North West. FAF members - particularly dancers and musicians - will need to check the source of funding if they're asked to participate in performances next year. |
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20 Jul 09 - 07:18 AM (#2683776) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick Goergina. According to thir electoral campaign literature, the BNP plans to allocate 10% of MEP salaries to something which they have called The English Fair Fund. This, they say, is to provide grants to communities planning to celebrate St. George's Day. If I've got my facts correct (which I probably haven't), an MEP's annual salary would equate to somewhere in the region of £72,000. That would mean the allocation sum would be around £14,000, and you can hire an awful lot of Morris dancers for £14,000. So far as I know the scheme is intended to apply anywhere in England, and is not limited to the two members' constituencies. In other words, if you are a musician, dancer, organiser, or in any way connected with folk activities, and someone approaches you with an offer you can't refuse, check the small print very carefully. |
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20 Jul 09 - 11:23 AM (#2683890) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace The BNP are fascist. They are also assholes. Three years back, Joe, you were saying the same stuff for the BNP that you are now. I had hoped for more from you by now. You see a point reasoning with the trash. I don't. Shag the BNP. You didn't answer any of my questions, Joe. Should we reason with the BNP? Should we make nice? You think that's the best way to deal with Nazis? Instead of vou coming back to me with, "I thought you'd come up with IDEAS", why the fuck don't you? What are YOUR ideas--because the only one I have left after trying to deal with this shit for over three years is to tell the motherfuckers to drop dead. |
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20 Jul 09 - 12:22 PM (#2683918) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lizzie Cornish 1 'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing' Edmund Burke (1729-1797) "My country is the world- My countrymen are mankind", William Lloyd Garrison |
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21 Jul 09 - 06:37 AM (#2684344) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer Can I just chuck my tuppence in and say that the issues raised by Georgina and Fred are the things on which we ought to be focusing. The facebook identity theft crap is just playground stuff compared to what the real, hardline fascists are capable of, and if they were involved, believe me we'd know it by now. When your name or your face are on Redwatch, that's the time to really start worrying. Keep complaining to facebook by all means, but don't take your eye of the real focus of the campaign - because that is exactly what the Facebook/Mudcat troll wants you to do. While you're diverted by petty games, you're not talking about the stuff that matters. Ignore, ignore, ignore. And with the greatest of respect, Bruce, I'm not sure how productive it is to keep asserting the "fuck the BNP" stance. You know that I equally find it baffling that Mudcat gives a platform to overt fascists, but this might be worth raising in a dedicated thread. |
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21 Jul 09 - 09:34 AM (#2684426) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Ruth, the Mudcat has the policy that moderation decisions may not be questioned on open board. So IF one were to take the view that the Mudcat preferred the freedom of speech of fascists to the freedom of speech of its members, that would not be a matter permitted to be discussed on open board and posts on that topic would be deleted. |
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21 Jul 09 - 10:35 AM (#2684448) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Royston For anyone interested in a tangible action against the fascist menace of the BNP, I urge you to join in the protest against them at their "Red, White & Blue" rally in Codnor, Derbyshire on 15 August. Unite Against Fascism Have called for a mass demonstration at the village of Codnor in which the hardcore rag-tag bunch of racists and Nazis will be effectively "Kettled" in their lonely field of shame. The demonstration will be civil, peaceful. It has the consent of the local authorities and Derbyshire Police. Get the A5 FLYER Coaches have been booked from around the country - for a list of embarkation points and contact numbers for booking of places, go to COACHES Or make your own way to Codnor with a view to assembling at 09:00 on 15 August 2009. Check the Unite Against Fascism Website for updates. |
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21 Jul 09 - 10:40 AM (#2684454) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Royston Unite Against Fascism is calling on anti-fascists across the country to converge on Codnor, Derbyshire, at 9am on Saturday 15 August to protest against the British National Party rally taking place in the village that weekend. UAF supporters intend to "kettle" the rally by surrounding it with protesters. This action will demonstrate that the vast majority of people in this country reject the Nazi politics of the BNP. The BNP pretends that its annual "Red, White and Blue" event is a harmless family-oriented "patriotic" festival. In reality it is aimed at promoting the BNP's fascist agenda to both its hardcore followers and its softer supporters. Previous years have seen SS marching songs played as "entertainment" at the rally. The rally will also be a magnet for neo-Nazis across Europe. Last year the BNP invited guests including Czech neo-Nazi Petra Edelmannova who has called for a "final solution to the Gypsy issue" and Sweden's Marc Abramsson, a Swedish fascist who campaigns for "racially pure kindergartens" that exclude non-white children. This year's guests are likely to include representatives of Jobbik, a violently racist Hungarian Nazi party that organises pogroms against Roma people. Weyman Bennett, joint secretary of Unite Against Fascism, said: "The BNP's 'Red, White and Blue' is a nothing more than a festival of race hatred. The fascists will use their rally to harden up its supporters and build its army of thugs. Wherever the BNP organises, racist violence follows. "Allowing this festival to go ahead will mean more race hatred and racist attacks on our streets in the months to come. That is why it is so important for anti-fascists to come to Codnor in huge numbers to surround the BNP's rally. "The presence of two BNP Nazis in the European parliament also poses challenges for anti-fascists. We need to build the broadest possible movement against the BNP with roots in communities across the country." |
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21 Jul 09 - 10:41 AM (#2684458) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy surely if one is for freedom of speech and thought then it would only be fair to let the facists post here too. it would help to remind people of the shit we are fighting. by allowing them a voice we not only uphold our own ideals but can show the world what complete morons they really are. anyone is free to think what they want to but they can expect to be challenged if someone disagrees. my thinking is if you don't like what someone says then either tell them or don't get involved. if i was someone new here and was reading this for the first time and didn't know about the BNP and their ilk, i wouuld want to hear from them so i could make my own mind up. i would still end up hating what they stand for but i would feel like i have made a desicion based upon my own understanding and by my own free will not the will of others. no offence to anyone. take care all jade x x x x |
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21 Jul 09 - 10:50 AM (#2684460) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy sorry royston we seem to have cross posted. i really wish that we could go to the rally as it sounds a good way to get our point across as well as making new friends. we have family commitments, who we see only rarely as it is. we will be watching the news and keep our fingers crossed that everything stays peaceful. i hope the t shirts will be ready by then as it would be so cool to see most people in them. stay safe and take care all jade x x x x x |
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21 Jul 09 - 11:32 AM (#2684483) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace Ruth and Jeddy, I DO know where you're coming from, but as far as Mudcat is concerned, the BNP post here less than they were for a while likely because calling them what they are--scum--is not what they want their would-be recruits (any they might gather on this forum) to read being said about them. Ruth, I agree that taking action against them is preferable. When someone attacks, there are limited choices. Complete, pacifism, counter-attack or some mixture of the two. I fail to see what 'reasonableness' has accomplished here, but because it is your thread, and because I do respect your views, I will keep away from here. Good luck reasoning with them. I doubt that scum will ever recognize reason, but who knows. I still believe in Santa Claus. |
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21 Jul 09 - 12:00 PM (#2684501) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy no need for that bruce!!! i am open to suggestions as to how to deal with the hardcore, that don't make me feel just like them. we have a reason that they don't. we hate what they stand for and what they are all about, they just hate because they are afraid of anyone and anything different. i do not know all the answers if i did iwould be a very popular prime minister!! yeah right!! take care all jade x x x |
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21 Jul 09 - 02:17 PM (#2684639) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer Actually, it's not my thread, Bruce. :) I am not suggesting reasoning with them. I don't really see the point in that, either. But I do think that this thread would be best used as a way of discussing activity which people might be planning under the FAF banner, or indeed discussing the issues that FAF raises, such as the posts earlier by Georgina and Fred. I'm not sure that the latest "oooh, look what they've said to me now!" message or repeatedly telling them to "have sex and travel" is necessarily going to move our purpose forward. I say this with the greatest of respect to everyone who has posted here so far. And it's just my opinion, anyway - no one is under any obligation to take any notice of me whatsoever. :) |
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21 Jul 09 - 02:18 PM (#2684642) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lizzie Cornish 1 The other thing you can do on Facebook: If you know of a copied profile, such as mine, or Bruce or Richard, then you get the page up, look under the photo and press 'Report this person'.....a box will then come up, saying this: You are about to report a violation of our Terms of Use. All reports are strictly confidential. If you're reporting someone for an inappropriate group, message, post, etc., please do so through the report link on the page where you see that content. Block this person If you block someone, they will not be able to find you in a Facebook search, see your profile, or interact with you through Facebook channels (such as Wall posts, Poke, etc.). Any Facebook ties you currently have with a person you block will be broken (for example, friendship connections, Relationship Status, etc.). Note that blocking someone may not prevent all communications and interactions in third-party applications, and does not extend to elsewhere on the Internet. Report this person Reason: (required) Choose one... Nudity or pornography Attacks individual or group Fake profile Additional comments: (required) Is this your intellectual property? |
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21 Jul 09 - 02:22 PM (#2684649) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Oops, it posted too soon... You simply fill out the form and post it...obvious I know, but I thought I'd just finish my message off. And....Fook the BNP....of course, which I think would make a rather excellent T shirt and entire range of FAF goods, but, hey.....whadda I know? |
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21 Jul 09 - 03:00 PM (#2684686) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer Lizzie, if you want to start your own "Fucck the BNP" movement and produce a range of associated merchandise, go for your life. But the message we're trying to convey with FAF is somewhat more complex. |
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21 Jul 09 - 03:13 PM (#2684697) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy ruth, i think what we have been doing is keeping this thread near the top, while waiting for stuff to be sorted, we have simply been filling in time until there is somethig concrete to do or talk about. i am not annoyed or misdirected by the other stuff, as it is very juvenile, but gives me a laugh and helps me concentrate on what we are doing. i would still love to have stickers and a t shirt so when people ask what that is about i can tell them. i am begining to bore all who know me and that way people will be coming to me, not me preaching at them. does that make sense to anyone who cannot read my mind? i hope so! i can't wait to be able to give out leaflets as i am rather good at getting folks to stop and chat. i am gutted that we have already been booked for august, however my full support is with all of you who can make it. take care all jade x x x |
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21 Jul 09 - 05:13 PM (#2684793) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge My name is now legion. |
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21 Jul 09 - 05:17 PM (#2684799) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Little Hawk Is this anything like Folk Against Rape, Arson, and Sexual Abuse of Puppies and Small Children? (FARAaSAoPaSC) If it is, by golly, count me in! I love being a member of a movement based on a moral premise so bloody obvious that even a half-witted hamster can grasp the concept and immediately get onside. There is, after all, security in numbers, right? |
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21 Jul 09 - 05:23 PM (#2684802) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer No, Little Hawk - it is a specific response to a specific set of circumstances - the attempted appropriation of British folk music and culture by the far right. It is an effort to raise awareness of what the BNP is doing to try and appropriate British folk music and culture, and an opportunity for musicians to respond collectively to the appropriation of their music by the far right. |
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21 Jul 09 - 05:27 PM (#2684804) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Emma B 'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing' How very true! Count me in to actually DO something other than spout off 'go forth and multiply' sentiments here See you at Codnor, Derbyshire. |
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21 Jul 09 - 05:27 PM (#2684805) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Royston Richard, My name is now legion... ...for we are many? But there is only one *Richard* Bridge and those who matter know the difference. |
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21 Jul 09 - 05:48 PM (#2684821) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Little Hawk How the heck could the Far Right appropriate folk music in the UK or anywhere else, given the fact that most people who are attracted to folk music are lefties? The BNP must be awfully well organized! If I was in the UK Far Right (a hideous thought...!) I think I would be far more inclined to appropriate hip-hop or hard rock or heavy metal or punkrock or some kind of music that appeals to skinheads... ;-) I can't see the Far Right becoming that enamoured of Child Ballads, Loreena McKennit, Enya, Morris Dancing, the bodhran and other pleasant stuff like that. But maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps they are intent on carving out some lebensraum in the heretofore Elysian fields of folk music. If so, I wish you all the best of luck in combating their vile plans! ;-) You know, the funny thing is that in my local circle of folkies here there are several old curmudgeons (all males) who have swung way to the Right in their golden years...farther right in a couple of cases than Attilla the Hun. I put it down to hardening of the arteries or something along that line. They are still much outnumbered by us liberals and lefties, though, so I'm not too worried. Each contingent sings a few songs that annoy the others and we all manage to have a pretty good time on any given evening. |
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21 Jul 09 - 05:58 PM (#2684826) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Little Hawk One of them (Mike) likes to say: "If a person isn't a liberal when he's young, he has no heart. If he hasn't become a conservative by the time he gets to be old, he has no brains." Needless to say, I disagree with Mike's proverb. ;-) I've met brainy people and rather heartless people on both sides of the political divide...and in every age group as well. |
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21 Jul 09 - 06:14 PM (#2684844) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer Little Hawk, the reasons behind the campaign have been discussed exhaustively up the thread. It might be a good idea to have a read befire deciding whether the threat is real or not. Have a look at the facebook page: Folk Against Fascism facebook group |
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21 Jul 09 - 06:20 PM (#2684851) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer "I can't see the Far Right becoming that enamoured of Child Ballads, Loreena McKennit, Enya, Morris Dancing, the bodhran and other pleasant stuff like that. But maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps they are intent on carving out some lebensraum in the heretofore Elysian fields of folk music." Well yeah - they are, actually. And of your examples above, it's the English ones they're most interested in, because they are intent on aligning "Englishness" with their racist agenda. They have their own morris side. There are BNP activists in my local morris side, as it happens. And, if you have a look at the link I posted, you'll se ethat they actively encourage their campaigners to infiltrate traditional events. |
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21 Jul 09 - 06:25 PM (#2684855) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer "How the heck could the Far Right appropriate folk music in the UK or anywhere else, given the fact that most people who are attracted to folk music are lefties?" This is a huge assumption, and it's certainly not borne out by my experience - least of all on Mudcat. |
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21 Jul 09 - 06:28 PM (#2684858) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Little Hawk Yes, I see. It's an interesting situation, Ruth. It's very common for extremely nationalistic and rightwing political forces to celebrate the old traditions of their local culture (music included). It's natural for them to do that, matter of fact, because they will always emphasize such local traditions as opposed to anything new that is coming from outside the traditional culture. This is on the one hand quite sincere on their part...although they may be using it in the service of a very reactionary political agenda. I can well understand why you are concerned about it. Hitler's movement loved the old folk music traditions of Germany, the old folk tales, the heraldry, the cultural past, and all that sort of traditional German stuff. And why wouldn't they? Sometimes the "wrong" people (politically speaking) do like many of the "right" things. This is because, like it or not, we often share a number of cultural and ethical values with people with whom we disagree markedly on politics...or religion. I find that all the time. It can surprise you what you have in common with your bitterest political opponents if you take some time and get to know some of them as real people. That doesn't mean you are obliged to like or approve of their politics. |
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21 Jul 09 - 06:34 PM (#2684864) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Emma B LH it ain't even that 'simple' A few years back when the BNP attempted to 'use' mudcat to propogate their message of racial hatred they posted some 'modern folk songs' on here As far as I'm aware they are still available in the archives but I really don't want to give a link to that kind of material. It's not just about 'tradition' it's what you use it for! Now honestly I feel that discussions of this kind belong to a seperate thread |
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21 Jul 09 - 06:43 PM (#2684867) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Last 'Season' LH, the BNP (nee NF) were infiltrating and appropriating our great British institution of football. What larks! *Now* if people think 'football', they don't think "fun day out with the kids", they think "violent, skinhead, paki-bashing fun." Job done then. |
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21 Jul 09 - 06:57 PM (#2684878) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer "Sometimes the "wrong" people (politically speaking) do like many of the "right" things. This is because, like it or not, we often share a number of cultural and ethical values with people with whom we disagree markedly on politics...or religion. I find that all the time. It can surprise you what you have in common with your bitterest political opponents if you take some time and get to know some of them as real people. That doesn't mean you are obliged to like or approve of their politics. " That's not the threat we're actually facing at the moment. The BNP,as an entity, is deliberately trying to appropriate folk customs, events and music as part of their racist political agenda. |
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21 Jul 09 - 07:12 PM (#2684896) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Royston Little Hawk, at times your "confucius once say..." lines of rambling pseduo-reason can be incredibly tiresome. The BNP leadership are violent white-supremacist terrorists. They love Hitler and they deny the holocaust. They seek power for its own sake and they will wade through the blood of innocents to achieve it. This is not my opinion, this is a reasoned assessment of them and their objectives based on their actual criminal convictions to date. They have mixed up a half-true delusion of folk-history to justify their lunacy and to stir up the darkest and most craven instincts in their running-dogs. They know nothing of their true history and heritage, and they care even less about it and the British people as a whole. Their claim to be the sole upholders of folk-arts and tradition is just a cynical power-play that has no greater depth than their ability to illegally copy artist's performances and sell them on rip-off CD's from their 'white-power' websites. The music site is actually called "Blood and Honour". That is why the people that actually work to preserve and perform our musical and artistic heritage are standing up to say "Not in my name" and to repudiate the siren call of these worthless would-be tyrants. To stay quiet while ruminating on some pseudo-intellectual assessment of what common ground we might share with these dangerous idiots would be a gross dereliction of our obligations as decent human beings. You may be happy with that, thankfully there are plenty of folk who are not. |
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21 Jul 09 - 07:33 PM (#2684917) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy thanks for getting this thread back on track.i know i have been one of the those that have been taking it off somewhere else, but like i said i had my reasons. now we have something to focus our attention on, then i for one will stop messing about. take care all jade x x |
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21 Jul 09 - 08:01 PM (#2684934) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Joe Offer What Royston had to say is a good start. Now, I'd like to see facts and links to back up what Royston says. If all you can do is post the same slogans over and over again, you serve as a beacon to attract posts that you claim you don't want to see here. Keep the discussion rational; and avoid the temptation to post the same thing over and over again, which just serves to provoke conflict. You'll notice that I have edited all posts that contain Bruce Murdoch's favorite slogan. I'll ask you not to post that slogan again, because it has caught the attention of the BNP blogs. We don't want to Google ourselves into trouble we can't handle. Even if you don't have common sense, try to use some in this situation. -Joe Offer- |
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21 Jul 09 - 08:30 PM (#2684953) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Tell you what, Joe....why don't you use some common sense and ban ALL 'Guests' from Mudcat, once and for all, particularly the facist ones, as Bruce suggested? You know that you can do that... And as Bruce has said earlier on, you ban the likes of him, and me, and others, from this site, yet you let these bastards post.......????????????? Yes, this thread is being watched by someone who is on Mudcat and who is playing these games, I can vouch for that, because they've just been over to my page again with someone else's identity from here....but the more people DON'T talk about them, the more nothing will get done. I've just received notification from Facebook that they've got my email, which I sent to 'abuse@facebook.com' but the MORE emails they get telling them about this, the faster they'll sort it out. Mudcat is NOT helping by allowing the 'Guest' posting system to remain. WHY do you have it in the first place? Why? And as Bruce has written more political songs than you've had hot dinners, which have inspired more people to change the way they think, alongside inspiring and encouraging many people to write their own songs, even to this day, I'd suggest that you show him a little respect, Joe...rather than treat him like you have done, above.. Double yeesh! And that goes for me too, after you're extremely rude PM to me over Tam and Crow Sister's threads. Physician...Heal Thyself! So...fulck the BNP and all who sail in her, or support her, be it politically, or on the internet, including those who allow facist/racist 'guests' to post on their sites, whilst banning some of their own members from time to time! Triple Yeesh!!! And now, I'll leave you to remove MY post, Joe.... |
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21 Jul 09 - 08:47 PM (#2684957) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,George Davis Joe, the discussion is anything but rational. Ranting and f**king is about the height of it. The thread was started with good intentions, gradually it went downhill with bad language, loss of temper and repeated posts. I am not surprised members or supporters of the British National Party aren't challenging comments, what is there to challenge ? If anyone above thinks their comments will change the mind of the electorate, the are deluded. It is one thing expressing ones opposition to the politics of another, it's another to call them f**kers and thugs and think that wins the arguement ! Freedom of speech and choice to vote for whoever you chose still exists in Britain today. Reading the comments above reminds me of the child who takes his ball and runs home crying because he wasn't allowed to be team captain. The comments are childish and frankly meaningless. Some people would do better putting their energy into something worthwhile. I would like to see this thread closed and tempers cooled for a day or two. Politics for politicians, Music for musicians. On a sadder note, I just learned tonight Hurricane Smith died last year. A great guy, served in World War Two, worked with the Beatles and wrote and performed several hit recordings. |
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21 Jul 09 - 09:01 PM (#2684964) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Ruth Archer "the more people DON'T talk about them, the more nothing will get done." Contact facebook by all means - but reacting and responding to the messages is giving the provocateur exactly the reaction they're after. |
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22 Jul 09 - 02:23 AM (#2685063) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Little Hawk Stay calm, folks. I am not defending the BNP. There is much you have to be worried about, I'm sure, but not that, okay? If I talk about some other aspects of the situation that I find interesting (such as that people in a very destructive political cause are quite often people who also genuinely like a number of good things that you too may like) I am simply saying it because I find that interesting...NOT because I am defending the BNP. Not in any way am I defending the BNP. I do not endorse their political views. I do not sympathize with their political views. I do not empathize with their political views. I hope they do not succeed in their political objectives. I don't expect to improve the world by going into a frenzy of hatred here over them...or anyone else either. As Joe Offer says: Keep it rational. Keep it reasonable. If all you are here for is to indulge yourself in expressing your outrage and your violent emotion, you will only succeed in reducing the discussion to a level of deep hostility...and driving away any people who don't agree with you 100% about absolutely everything...and occupying a lot of bandwidth just for the purpose of venting. And then what? Anyway, I'm quite happy to leave you to it. I have no big stake in proving anything to anyone here. I just talk about a subject if I find it interesting. If all people want to do here is fight and express outrage...well, like I said, I'm happy to leave you to it. Enjoy the excitement and drama, I guess... See you on some other thread, no doubt. |
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22 Jul 09 - 07:03 AM (#2685162) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) "such as that people in a very destructive political cause are quite often people who also genuinely like a number of good things that you too may like" LH this kind of misreading of the situation, appears almost willful on your part, and is quite frustrating. Either that or you simply haven't been reading the posts which have elaborated the facts of the situation. The BNP membership don't just *happen* to like folk music en masse. It's not a mere "interesting coincidence" that the BNP have latched onto our Traditional Music, *it's a fully cynical politically agendered STRATEGY to annex traditional folk music for nationalistic and fascist purposes.* Exactly as the Nazi's did during WWII. I read a comment from one lady who said that Germans now only sing their folk songs, in quiet little groups - not in public. And that such rare small gatherings, are deeply emotional. The people are ashamed of the purposes to which their traditional songs were prostituted. The FaF organisers don't want the same thing to happen to English folk song and music, and are determined to resist it. |
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22 Jul 09 - 07:26 AM (#2685172) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick Crow Sister. Actually, this is one BNP policy about which there is nothing cynical. Indeed, the Aryanisation of British culture is right at the heart of their sick and tormented ideology. These people are gene freaks. They believe in all seriousness that everything the British create, whether it be language, music or whatever, is a product of British genetic makeup. In their eyes all 'non-aryan' forms of music; jazz, blues, rock, Arabic maqams, West African praise songs or whatever, are the products of inferior races. Therefore, they figure that if they clear the country of said races and said music, they will be able to unite the pure Aryan British people around the pure Aryan strains of British folk music. That is why we need to take BNP threats to our music with the utmost seriousness. Trainloads of Muslims being shipped off to the strains of Seeds of Love? It can't happen if we don't let it happen. |
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22 Jul 09 - 08:07 AM (#2685198) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) "And that goes for me too, after you're extremely rude PM to me over Tam and Crow Sister's threads." Ooops.. Did you get a slapped wrist then Lizzie? Despite the toe curling factor, I thought it quite sweet really! In fact I think it'd be quite nice to see *more* such threads for some of Mudcat's (very many) hobbyist musicians. I mean, us mere hobbyists don't tend to indulge in the usual kinds of self-promotion, that some of the pro's do on here... As such, I think I might just trace that thread you started for me, and if I ever get around to putting up anything online again, I'll link it there! So! ;-) |
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22 Jul 09 - 08:46 AM (#2685221) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: TheSnail There is no point in effing and blinding at the BNP nor in trying toe engage them in debate. Neither is going to change them in any way and they are delighted with the attention. There are two groups of people we DO need to address, those who might be deceived by the BNP soft image that they are trying to promote, especially those within folk music, and the wider public who might fall into the trap of believing that folk music is associated with extreme right wing views. For instance, we could do without this sort of thing. The first group are best served by exposing the truth about the BNP their racist criminal behaviour and there is plenty of that in the media and online. To win over the second group, we need to stand up for traditional music and promote a positive image rather than feeling slightly embarrassed about it as earlier posters suggested. We also need to be vigilant about keeping the B^$!^£ds (Sorry, Joe) out of our traditions. As Fred McCormick said earlier "In other words, if you are a musician, dancer, organiser, or in any way connected with folk activities, and someone approaches you with an offer you can't refuse, check the small print very carefully." It may not be true that their involvement is totally cynical. The one I encountered seemed genuinely interested in traditional song; he just saw it as part of his repulsive views. |
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22 Jul 09 - 08:54 AM (#2685229) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Snail: "he just saw it as part of his repulsive views." Thanks to Snail & Fred Mc. for that key clarification there. |
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22 Jul 09 - 10:47 AM (#2685273) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Fred McCormick Snail. "There is no point in effing and blinding at the BNP nor in trying to engage them in debate" This isn't a theory I've had the opportunity to test and I hope I'll know more after September. That is when Matthew Goodwin's book on the BNP is due to be published. However, my impression is that the BNP consists of a hard core of nasties, possibly only several hundred in number, who are surrounded by a much larger inactive mass of floating card carriers; people who've joined and pay their subs as a gesture of solidarity, but don't actually do anything. If such a body does exist it is likely to be comprised of people who are thick, politically naive, racist, chauvinist and pissed off with the major parties. In other words, they've joined the BNP because they don't realise the true nature of the beast. Such people wouldn't make the most sparkling of company. But a bit of careful explaining to some of them might work wonders. "The one I encountered seemed genuinely interested in traditional song; he just saw it as part of his repulsive views." There is a long history of people exploiting and faking folklore for racist and nationalistic reasons. I don't want to get too heavily involved in a debate, here at any rate. However, I would strongly recommend anyone wanting to know more to take a look at Locating Irish Folklore by Diarmuid Ó Giolláin. Also, E.J. Hobsbawm and Terence Ranger, eds. The Invention of Tradition. Plus Georgina Boyes' excellent study, the Imagined Village. Personally I am extremely interested in British traditional song, and have been for most of my life. Amongst other things, discovering a wealth of traditional song and music right here on my doorstep was the engine which eventually led me to explore the musical traditions of just about every other nation on earth. In other words, where the BNP seek to use traditional song to isolate the British from the rest of the world's peoples, for me it was a stepping stone towards understanding the rest of the world's peoples, and to empathising with them. |
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22 Jul 09 - 11:51 AM (#2685313) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Big Mick Seems to me that you are mad at the wrong person, Bruce, my friend (sincere comment). While I may not agree with trying to reason with folks that have an agenda that includes propagandizing, proselytizing and recruitment, and veiled racism, none the less they are entitled in a public forum to mouth their views, even if they are objectionable. That is freedom of speech, which Yanks hold near and dear. Remembering that this is a public forum, one must keep in mind who has what obligation. It is not the obligation of the forum owner to censor objectionable opinion. That is the job of the listening public. It is your job to continue to point out the hidden agenda, the racist positions, and the false premises. This forum operates with very few rules, and that is by intent. It is a wonderful record of social interaction, debate, argument among peoples from entirely different social backgrounds and cultures. Our rules are simply designed to keep discussion of issues, and music, flowing. We only ask that folks limit their attacks to organizationional agendas, or individuals ideas, and we will not allow personal attacks. Joe and I, nor even Max for that matter, have any obligation to censor ideas. But participants here do have an obligation. That is to debate, or choose not to, and do so in a way that is in compliance with our rules, few that they may be. As to Richard Bridge's comment of 9:34 AM, I would add that Joe and I are always available for private discussion through the use of PM's. But a forum of this type cannot be moderated by public consensus. You can reach me at mick@mudcat.org All the best, Mick |
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22 Jul 09 - 12:22 PM (#2685345) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Royston Fred McC; In other words, where the BNP seek to use traditional song to isolate the British from the rest of the world's peoples, for me it was a stepping stone towards understanding the rest of the world's peoples, and to empathising with them. Quoted for the truth, Fred. I've always banged on about folk music being the heritage of the working folk and how it tells us, if it tells us anything, that we're all in this mess together and we hardly need the BNP divide and rule tactics. In fact if the BNP didn't exist then I suspect "the establishment" would need to invent it...or have they done so? You put it better than I did, because, yes, folk music connects us to a time of struggle and adventure/adversity that none of us face any more in the western-world, but which others less "fortunate" than us still do. |
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22 Jul 09 - 01:11 PM (#2685375) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: fairplay Behind the studied outrage and special pleading, this thread is just a ramp to attack one particular party. What next? Folk Against Tory Coffee Mornings? Judging from Mudcat, there seems to be more evidence of infiltration and manipulation of folk by the looney left than there is by the BNP. |
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22 Jul 09 - 01:45 PM (#2685387) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: The Sandman Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Stringsinger - PM Date: 18 Jul 09 - 12:34 PM Nazisim came out of the ashes of economic deprivation in Germany in the 20's. There is always a chance that a system of reaction will develop when times are hard. People who are suffering want to blame someone so they form a political party. Jews were scapegoats because it was convenient to do this. The "man under the curtain" is corporate fascism which is slowly taking over certain parts of the world. As long as corporate elites control the economies of the world, they will bolster the rise of groups such as the BNP. It's important to focus attention on the real culprits, the CEO's and the politicians who are greedy, the policies in governments which are controlled by the military industrial complex and the suppression of unions by ruthless business interests. Here's where FAF should be concentrating their efforts. Then maybe the KKK and the BNP will be seen for what they really are[end of quote] this is a sensible post. |
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22 Jul 09 - 02:10 PM (#2685408) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Royston fairplay, sorry old chap. You may have a point. Is there another fascist political party in the UK? One that I missed? Because if there is then I will organise against that also. The BNP is not a normal political party. It aims to use and subvert the democratic process in order to secure power; after which it will enact its inhumane, anti-democratic policies. Nazi Nick has been caught on camera (or has blatantly bragged to the watching media) that BNP policy is geared at sowing discontent and disaffection amongst poor white folk to whip up racial discord and hatred. His policy is - according to him - to stop talking about the true end-game of BNP policy, until they have secured power or sufficient momentum in public opinion, so that their true agenda is either more "acceptable" or can be implemented forcibly. PROOF HERE - Nazi Nick addressing a group of American white-supremacists in New Orleans arranged by the former KKK leader David Duke. Play the video, listen to Nazi Nick's own words. "BNP is not about selling out its ideas, which are your ideas too [the KKK]...but we will use the saleable words: 'freedom', 'identity', 'security', 'democracy'...nobody can criticise them, nobody can attack you for those, they are saleable. Perhaps one day, once by being rather more subtle we've got ourselves in a position where we control the British broadcast media...people may change their mind and say 'every last one of them must go'...but if you hold that out as your aim to start with you'll get absolutely nowhere. So instead of talking about racial purity we talk about 'racial identity'" What say you to that, fairplay? |
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22 Jul 09 - 02:31 PM (#2685419) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: jeddy royston, it would seem that their divide and rule is rather effective. i think if you read through this thread it is plain to see it in action, don't you think? we have been at each others throats rather alot. if we as educated (and for myself i use the term very loosely) people are falling for it, there is no hope for those who have no idea what they are truely up to. we have to stick together. take care all jade x x x |
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22 Jul 09 - 02:44 PM (#2685427) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Royston You're right Jeddy. That's the reason for the mobilisation agains the BNP. I am a libertarian. If somebody holds fascist opinions and racist baggage then they are free to their thoughts and they are free to speak them. But I and others will make damn sure that there is at least an equal and opposite reaction to them. That is democracy. The true policies of the BNP (the views of its glory-arse leader) are poisonous and anti-democratic. His views do not belong in any mainstream political dialogue. His is the ideology of the gutter and the fist and the boot. He lies about his true aims and so the truth must be made to be heard. If it forces the likes of fairplay to make a choice and go to the BNP then fine, he doesn't matter. Most rational people, when they know what the BNP is really about, wouldn't touch it with someone else's bargepole. I am only bothered about *those* people. |
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22 Jul 09 - 04:12 PM (#2685469) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge I am very bothered that "ideals" of free speech suggest that we should restrain abuse of the BNP, that we should not monitor the BNP, that we should not seek to apply tourniquets to restrain the spread of BNP poison. On the one hand the BNP advocate gbh and murder. On the other "idealists" suggest that we should not say "Fuck the BNP". Which is the darker shade of grey? |
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22 Jul 09 - 04:19 PM (#2685474) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Lizzie Cornish 1 F*ck the BNP. Bruce is right...and he should know, he's been writing songs against prats like these, for decades, inspiring the likes of Richie Havens along the way. Just three simple words, summing up everything people should feel about the BNP. Good post, Richard. |
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22 Jul 09 - 04:26 PM (#2685481) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Emma B I think I have posted many times Richard to expose BNP lies and tactics and to counteract the racism in any 'real' or purely mischievous 'trollish' posts. I'm in total agreement with Big Mick when he points out "It is your job to continue to point out the hidden agenda, the racist positions, and the false premises" We SHOULD monitor the BNP, we SHOULD seek to apply tourniquets to restrain the spread of BNP poison. But what is the point of simply just resorting to the same sort of mindless, repetitive verbal abuse as the people whose policies we so despise? |
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22 Jul 09 - 04:40 PM (#2685491) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Royston There's nothing *wrong* with keep saying "Fuck the BNP". We all agree with that. It's a nice thing to say, feels like a release. Like having a wank I suppose, or self-harm (I have no experience of the latter, mind you). I have not and will never tell anyone not to say that. I don't see that Mick or Joe have tried to prevent or delete anyone's emissions either. Great. But it isn't really helpful. Simple as. It's like having a friend with tourettes. Amusing for a while, charming even. But ultimately tedious and destructive, however patient one is willing to be. |
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22 Jul 09 - 04:56 PM (#2685502) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace Royston, three years back I was posting links to BNP sites; links to some of their members who had also posted to various hate sites. This is not new to me. I have stopped saying "Fuck the BNP". So y'all can stop with the lectures. No offense to you. Three years back you could have counted on the fingers of a hand the number of people who posted against the BNP--under their own names. Even some posters who are on this thread were rightfully afraid at the time. So, even by innuendo I am fed up with the holier than thou stuff I've been reading. Y'all go reason with them. I won't. I was off this thread until a buddy posted. I came back to read it. Now I'm ON the damned thread again. Leave me out of it, please. And for the ex-friend who has a few things to say, do it via message. |
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22 Jul 09 - 05:20 PM (#2685515) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: GUEST,Member in a shopping centre internet cafe. "You're right Jeddy. That's the reason for the mobilisation against the BNP" Now Rifleman Royston is speaking as if his unit is heading out to Iraq for a four month tour of duty ! People people please stop and listen to yourselves. You are at most ten strong, few under 50, not exactly in the best of health and you talk about "fighting the enemy" lol. I would advise sticking to calling the BNP naughty names from the safety of your keypad.Better still, half of you aren't even in the UK ! By all means express your views, but come on, "mobilisation against the BNP". I am torn between Bilko or the Goon show to describe this twist in the thread. Has anyone noticed this thread coming up on radar on one of these devilish sites the nasty BNP visit ?? I would find it unlikely. I suggest we all go back to watching Dad's Army reruns on BBC2 and disband Keith Michelle's "Captain Beaky and His band." Right, anyone been to any decent folk sessions recently in the south east? |
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22 Jul 09 - 05:26 PM (#2685518) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Royston The "Guest's" world may begin and end with its keyboard and Mudcat / Bookface intrigue. The mobilisation I'm talking about is that of the entire UK anti-fascist movement. 52 coaches booked already. 2,600 people; and that's just the ones that aren't already in the area or making their own way there. |
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22 Jul 09 - 05:28 PM (#2685520) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace THAT is great, Royston. People need to know they're not alone. Good for you, on you and good gracious me. Bruce |
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22 Jul 09 - 05:29 PM (#2685524) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Richard Bridge Dear aptly named member: please do not confuse Royston, here, with the BNP clone Rifleman Royston on FaF (or possibly now ex Rifleman Royston). |
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22 Jul 09 - 05:52 PM (#2685542) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace As for the "member in an internet cafe". What a dink. A BNP personage who wants to remain nameless. Right. Sounds like someone from a main-stream political party to me. A while back some neo-Nazis marched in Calgary. Average people went to LAUGH at them. The poor neo-Nazi/Aryan Nations mix were very happy to have the protection of the police. I expect they will too in the UK. People who are not a bit skewed in the head do not like you. Their parents--and in some cases themselves-- fought against your ilk years back. They will fight against you now. Chicken-shits like you can't gain respect because as a kid you hid behind mommy's skirt. Today, you hide behind the anonymity of the internet. |
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22 Jul 09 - 06:03 PM (#2685550) Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism From: Peace And if the "powers that be" intend to castigate me for THAT ost, maybe y'all should recall that even from i'net cafes, one may post as guest and append one's normal user name.
-Joe Offer- |