Hog-Eye Man

11 Jun 09 - 06:57 AM (#2653850)
Subject: Hog-Eye Man
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

Not exactly a serious thread, though I'm in some uncertainty now...

I heard Martin Carthy's Hog-Eye Man, and thought, what a jolly sounding song, think I'll learn that!

And on doing a swift bit of searching, I discover the original lyrics are quite 'robust' so to speak, and now I don't know whether to go with the safe option for a young laydee like meself, or learn the real thing?

Laydeelyk Martin Carthy version.
Unlaydeelyk version

Dilema!

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11 Jun 09 - 07:00 AM (#2653851)
Subject: RE: Hog-Eye Man
From: Richard Bridge

Yes, once I had told my daughter of the meaning, she decided not to sing it despite having cut her teeth at the age of 8 on the unladylike version of Whip Jamboree...

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11 Jun 09 - 07:03 AM (#2653852)
Subject: RE: Hog-Eye Man
From: Leadfingers

There are a number of variants of Hog Eye Man , from the totally Whitewashed through VERY Rood to Totally Non PC .
Big buck N*****s , and sally in the garden verses and choruses !
Take your Pick !!

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11 Jun 09 - 07:06 AM (#2653854)
Subject: RE: Hog-Eye Man
From: Richard Bridge

Ah, viewing the "robust" version I see that although the language is salty, it seems to miss the significance of the "Hog-eye" - on which there is a thread here from decades ago...

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11 Jun 09 - 07:11 AM (#2653856)
Subject: RE: Hog-Eye Man
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

First verse:
'The hog-eye man is the man for me, he is blind and he cannot see'

Is probably descriptive enough. Though further info on that page does make the reference more clear.

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11 Jun 09 - 07:13 AM (#2653857)
Subject: RE: Hog-Eye Man
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

I made the mistake of hyphenating, probably why my previous search failed to throw any results up:

Thread Here

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11 Jun 09 - 07:17 AM (#2653860)
Subject: RE: Hog-Eye Man
From: doncatterall

The last time I sang this in a session I was accused of racism, sexism and (having also sung A Mon Like Thee - "I'm not poor but rich as ony Jew") anti-semitism!!!

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11 Jun 09 - 08:37 AM (#2653891)
Subject: RE: Hog-Eye Man
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

Notes from: Shanties from the seven seas

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11 Jun 09 - 10:08 AM (#2653946)
Subject: RE: Hog-Eye Man
From: GUEST,Lighter

I dunno where you got your text, but it wasn't from Hugill's book! So it's false to attribute it to him.

Am pretty certain that one or two of your stanzas were invented by Oscar Brand in the 1950s. They appear in his campus-style version of "Johnny Come Down to Hilo."

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11 Jun 09 - 10:43 AM (#2653985)
Subject: RE: Hog-Eye Man
From: Gibb Sahib

The one thing that is known for sure -- verses of this chantey were "indecent" back in sailing days. The issue of what exactly all those verses were (typically) has been complicated by several layers of change, incl:
censorship (self-imposed and publisher-imposed) of original singers.
bowdlerization by revival performers.
re-imagined obscenity (e.g. Lighter's insight into Oscar Brand), sometimes as a reaction to the previous clean-up).

The performer today is put in a somewhat awkward position. Should s/he wish to perform a "clean" version, s/he'll be criticised for being inauthentic. If performing a "dirty" version, s/he'll be likely to include several re-imagined verses -- which an audience might accept as "authentic," but which she'll know are not! Lastly, the most "authentic" thing to do is make up ones own verses, but if she does this, she's no longer protected by folk-singing Clause #245.6 : "Don't blame me; the lyrics are traditional" Instead s/he has now shown her own "dirty mind" to the world!! :)

I think this speaks to the sort of "willful vagueness" that is almost always necessary, in some degree, for a "folk music" performance to satisfy audiences and performers' expectations of authenticity. Which is why I am most satisfied when the ideas of "traditional" and "historical" are not conflated.

mini rant out of nowhere.

Gibb

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11 Jun 09 - 11:08 AM (#2654000)
Subject: RE: Hog-Eye Man
From: wysiwyg

If you sanitize it you prolly need to change the title you use for it or people will be disappointed-- it's quite a well-known euphemism.

~S~

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11 Jun 09 - 11:40 AM (#2654026)
Subject: RE: Hog-Eye Man
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

Sorry Gibb, I think you are the same as Hulton Clint (?) and I failed to attribute the second YouTube posted above to you.

I like colourful euphemism, so have no issue with The Hog-Eye Man (or any other euphemisms), though I'd be less keen on singing grossly graphic imagery either original or re-imagined. Take the Old Whores chorus for eg: (approx):

'Roley poley tickle my holey,
Smell of my slimey flue,
Drag your nuts across my guts...'

That's just too much of a bunch of blokes singing together song, for me to try take on! At least until I felt more confident with delivering such lyrics, which I'm not sure I would at present.

I'd personally also stay clear of what would be now racist content.

As for the Seven Shanties link, the end of the preface is signed Stan Hugill 1960. But other than that it was simply Googled for.

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11 Jun 09 - 11:47 AM (#2654031)
Subject: RE: Hog-Eye Man
From: Dead Horse

"That's just too much of a bunch of blokes singing together song, for me to try take on!"
That is exactly what shanties were, so why do you want to sing any of them?
I have a very split mind when it comes to folkies singing shanties.
On the one hand it is a blessing as it keeps them alive (the shanties)
While on the other hand it waters them down to the level of folk-club songs performed purely for entertainment.

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11 Jun 09 - 11:55 AM (#2654039)
Subject: RE: Hog-Eye Man
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

It's a fair point.

I just heard the Carthy version and quite simply, I liked it (my reason for being interested in this song) - I guess like most of what once were songs belonging to a specific group (be they historic protest songs, broadsides communicating current news, or harvest songs etc.) you do now hear them sung purely for entertainment by people far removed from their origins.

My comment about the Old Whores was simply that it's extremely graphic nature is too OTT for me to sing, I can't imagine being confident enough to *deliver it effectively*.

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11 Jun 09 - 12:19 PM (#2654054)
Subject: RE: Hog-Eye Man
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

Then again, I'm tempted to give it go now...
Think I feel more prudish amongst my 'elders' for some funny reason!

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11 Jun 09 - 12:53 PM (#2654088)
Subject: RE: Hog-Eye Man
From: GUEST,Lighter

Hugill prints two versions of the chorus that, authentically, don't require the use of the N-word.

Yet folkies never sing them. Instead, they go for odd euphemisms like "railroad navvy," "Arkansas farmer," etc.

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11 Jun 09 - 01:18 PM (#2654117)
Subject: RE: Hog-Eye Man
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

"And a hog eye
row the boat ashore for a hog eye
steady on a jig with her hog eye O
she wants a hog eye man"

Is the chorus I've decided on, from the text above. I agree though, it seems unnecesary to alter words where there are already alternates.

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11 Jun 09 - 01:23 PM (#2654127)
Subject: RE: Hog-Eye Man
From: Barry Finn

Crow Sister

'The hog-eye man is the man for me, he is blind and he cannot see'

Try this
"The hog-eye man is the man for me, he's got one eye and he cannot see"

I used "big buck sailor" did the same with the start of "Haul Away for Rosie-O"

It's easy enough tho adapt the song to the crowd you're singing with.

At Mystic one year Shanty Jack sang the "Chinee Bumboatman". Extremely unPC, a hush followed Jack off stage, the MC, right after Jack finished, announced that "here at Mystic we may not do things correct but we do do them right". Loud applause followed.

Barry, who's off to Mystic for 4 days worth of proper shanties

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11 Jun 09 - 01:37 PM (#2654136)
Subject: RE: Hog-Eye Man
From: Gibb Sahib

Sorry Gibb, I think you are the same as Hulton Clint (?) and I failed to attribute the second YouTube posted above to you.
Shh! Don't tell anyone!
For the visual, I decided to just for an actual hog'e eye and let people draw their own conclusions. ;)

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11 Jun 09 - 01:37 PM (#2654139)
Subject: RE: Hog-Eye Man
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

'Try this
"The hog-eye man is the man for me, he's got one eye and he cannot see"'

Cheers Barry, I'll take that one on. As said, quite comfortable with colourful euphemisms which raise a laugh.

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11 Jun 09 - 03:25 PM (#2654216)
Subject: RE: Hog-Eye Man
From: JWB

Crow Sister,

My approach to "original" lyrics is to err on the side of politeness unless I'm certain the audience will respond favorably. In practical terms, that means I don't sing the bawdy versions of things unless it's an event advertised as having rude material, or it's late at night, the rum has been flowing, and the windows are closed. Since my purpose in most performances is to entertain, I don't feel the need to foist "filthy" stuff on an audience -- merely suggestive lyrics are more entertaining to the majority of folks, I've found.

Of course, I keep both clean and dirty versions of certain songs fresh in my memory, 'cause you never know when the real Banks of the Sacramento might be just the thing.

Jerry

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11 Jun 09 - 04:44 PM (#2654286)
Subject: RE: Hog-Eye Man
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

In 1850, in addition to 28 steamers from San Francisco, there were 23 barks, 19 brigs and 21 brigantines on the Sacramento River.
Ships around the Horn to San Francisco and the Gold Rush did not become common until 1849, when an estimated 15,000 people made the trip in all sorts of vessels. The Traditional Ballad Index lists 1849 for Camptown Races, the same year as "Ho, for California" (Banks of the Sacramento) was mentioned in the journal of W. F. Morgan of the La Grange..

Oh, yes, do tell us the lyrics of the "real Banks of the Sacramento" were. Mr. Morgan did not record them.
Speculation is that the song was written by the Hutchinson Family (who toured England and North America); in which case the words would have been acceptable in polite society.

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12 Jun 09 - 06:56 AM (#2654715)
Subject: RE: Hog-Eye Man
From: GUEST,Hootenanny

Getting away from sea shanties can I mention the recording by bluesman Texas Alexander which includes the lines;

"My Gal's got something that look's like a Boar-Hog's eye"

It really doesn't take much imagination to know exactly what he is referring too.

Hoot

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12 Jun 09 - 12:44 PM (#2654953)
Subject: RE: Hog-Eye Man
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

A 'Hog-eye', in California in the Gold Rush days, was a flat-bottomed boat (barge) used in shallow waters around San Francisco Bay, supposedly derived from the name 'ditch-hog,' applied to rivermen by deep-water sailors. Wikipedia.
I have not looked into other references to this use of the term. Any more information?

Elgin, Texas, holds an annual Hogeye Festival (to do with hogs?).
Hogeye Elgin

No idea what transpires at the festival. The next one is Oct. 29, 2009.

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13 Jun 09 - 07:21 AM (#2655505)
Subject: RE: Hog-Eye Man
From: vectis

I always thought that this shanty originated from the sailors on the Tennessee River rather than salt water mariners.

The Hog Eye was originally the hole in the end of the penis, that's why you couldn't see through it.

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14 Jun 09 - 05:01 AM (#2655976)
Subject: RE: Hog-Eye Man
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

Uh-huh - thanks for making that nice and clear vectis... ;-)

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14 Jun 09 - 06:13 AM (#2656003)
Subject: RE: Hog-Eye Man
From: Richard Bridge

I tend to a different theory. Look at a picture of a real pig's eye. Turn it sideways. Now the other sideways. Er- do you not see a certain resemblance?

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14 Jun 09 - 06:38 AM (#2656014)
Subject: RE: Hog-Eye Man
From: GUEST,.gargoyle

Wild Hog - Eye Photo

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

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14 Jun 09 - 11:58 AM (#2656139)
Subject: RE: Hog-Eye Man
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Hungover red eye hog- broke into Gargoyle's still?

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27 Aug 10 - 05:12 PM (#2974224)
Subject: RE: Hog-Eye Man
From: GUEST,Boom71

Anyone gotthe chords for Hog eye Man ?

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27 Aug 10 - 10:47 PM (#2974379)
Subject: RE: Hog-Eye Man
From: Gibb Sahib

Anyone gotthe chords for Hog eye Man ?

I think the first chord is C-flat 13 with a flat 9.

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