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06 Jul 09 - 06:56 AM (#2672610) Subject: Is celtic rock folk music? From: Connacht Rambler I've just been listening to the Dripkick Murphys version of 'The Fields of Athenry'. Lots of punk electric guitar. Is it folk music? Is 'Dirty Old Town' by The Pogues folk music? What about 'Fairytale of New York'? When Christy Moore is accompanied by Declan Sinnot on electric guitar, is he being a folk singer? I asked these questions because Irish traditional music and singing has always thrived on absorbing other traditions in a creative manner: bagpipes into uilleann pipes, the bouzouke, the quadrille into set dancing, Gregorian chant into sean nos ... and so on. On this basis, celtic rock would seem to me to be a natural continuation of the Irish tradition. |
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06 Jul 09 - 07:15 AM (#2672632) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Richard Bridge If the above are folk songs (some are not, check the 1954 definition) then they are still folk songs if played on modern-day instruments. That is part of the evolutionary process of folk music. |
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06 Jul 09 - 07:24 AM (#2672640) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: oldhippie Also, The Real McKenzies, and Black 47 fall into the same question. I like Richard's answer above. |
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06 Jul 09 - 07:39 AM (#2672663) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Amy_Florence_Nthants Depends what you count as folk music With celtic/folk rock often they use folk tunes i.e Cruchan and Waille Waile but then put them to really heavy guitar/drum. Its an adaptation of a folk song and in that way its folk music. Other songs like DOT take a folk style and make it into music but if its folk then its not in the trad sense but more like 'Somewhere along the road' which most people regard as folk, including me. and that could extend to tunes played in the celtic rock Genre which aren't trad. If a song/tune has to be trad to be folk then music would never move on, we would never have embraced the epic Blowzabella or played Jump at the Sun by John Kirkpatrick in sessions :-( Folk music has always shifted and adapted to the music around it, Celtic rock certainly has folk type aspects to it, but it would never be regarded like salsa celtica as 'Pure Folk music' It all depends on your viewpoint as to how traditional a folk song/tune has to be to be folk, whether modern songs in a folk style count as folk and whether you can still embrace a folk tune as folk music if it has a heavy drum line. IMO (Not that is really counts) If a modern song is known by the majority of people in the room when you sing it, it counts as folk, yes it's a flawed theory but I hold to it none the less. And if you take a traditional song/tune or play a modern tune in trad style then you are playing folk Folk is a very expansive and inclusive Genre, and i think the title celtic/Rock Folk/metal trad/rock etc are justified and well named, they are not just folk or rock music but they combine the two, sometimes in a very appealing manner Ummmm and Mr Bridges..so any music played on a modern instrument is folk music???? |
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06 Jul 09 - 07:47 AM (#2672671) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Bill D I suppose you can call it anything you wish, but I shan't be attending any or buying any. The 'folk' are losing their sense of 'tradition', in my opinion (with some wonderful exceptions, of course). I'm afraid I will never see the charm in "louder & faster" just to be louder & faster. |
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06 Jul 09 - 07:56 AM (#2672679) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Connacht Rambler Didn't mean to be smart. I meant Dropkick Murphys, not Dripkick. |
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06 Jul 09 - 07:56 AM (#2672681) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: GUEST,Peter Laban If there's no connection at all with the tradition the songs came from in treatment and content and all that(all of the songs mentioned are fairly recent compositions by the way), is the music still traditional? Or does it matter at all what label you stick on it? |
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06 Jul 09 - 08:06 AM (#2672695) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Jack Campin There are plenty of bands doing funky stuff with folk tunes that have something to say: Kerekes Band (Hungarian) Croft no. 5 (Scottish) but rehashed Irish-pub-band cliches? I don't think so. |
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06 Jul 09 - 08:38 AM (#2672727) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 'As I was going over the Cork and Kerry Mountains I met with Colin Farrell and his money he was counting....' |
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06 Jul 09 - 09:44 AM (#2672784) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Richard Bridge "If a song/tune has to be trad to be folk then music would never move on, we would never have embraced the epic Blowzabella or played Jump at the Sun by John Kirkpatrick in sessions :-( " THe above is a misapprehension. The 1954 definition allows for the accretion of songs and tunes to tbe body of "folk" by being adopted into the comunity and modified. And indeed if it is via sessions then it is by oral transmission too. So "1954 definition" does not necessarily mean "trad" - if "trad" means "old". And no on two counts. First, only one "Bridge" please, not "Bridges". Secondly either you have not read, or you have not understood, what I first wrote. If something is a folk song, it is still a folk song no matter how you sing it or accompany it. But it doesn't have to have an instrumental accomaniment, and the mere fact of an instrumental accompaniemnt does not (fairly obviously) automatically make things "folk". |
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06 Jul 09 - 09:48 AM (#2672790) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Will Fly I've always felt that the term "Celtic" to describe a particular style of music from Ireland, Scotland, Brittany, Cornwall, etc., is misleading and a rather debased marketing term. We don't know what music Celts made, and there is some debate currently going on in historical circles about the actual origins and movements of Celtic tribes into and around this country. |
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06 Jul 09 - 10:03 AM (#2672805) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: GUEST,Shimrod Here we go again! Yet another ... person ... wants someone else to agree that some rock-based drivel, that has captured their attention span for the last couple of micro-seconds, is 'folk music'. Then, presumably, when someone else says 'no' they will be accused of being a 'folk fascist' etc. So I say, 'Connacht Rambler' that if you're that interested you'll read the books, listen to the recordings and come to your own conclusions. It's your question, so it's your responsibility to answer it! I don't f***ing care any more!! |
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06 Jul 09 - 10:20 AM (#2672820) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Jim Carroll Is it music? Jim Carroll |
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06 Jul 09 - 10:39 AM (#2672839) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: artbrooks Well, avoiding the basic "what is folk" and "what is Celtic" questions and moving on... Personally, I have some trouble with considering music as folk if it played on electronic (as opposed to mic-ed) equipment or if it is seriously amplified. That doesn't necessarily mean that I don't enjoy groups such as Gaelic Storm and Great Big Sea or that they don't cover material that is (at least) in the folk tradition. U-2? Nah. |
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06 Jul 09 - 11:15 AM (#2672880) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Jack Campin The reason I won't be trying to locate this group isn't that they're "rock-based" or electronic, but that their repertoire (if the two songs the OP mentioned are typical) is stuff that has been subjected to decades of crappy covers by talentless morons, to the point where you'd need to give it a treatment of heroic originality to make it worth listening to. (And "Fields of Athenry" was trash from the get-go). Technology from heavy metal used for something entirely different: electric guitar improvisation in Turkish classical style electric mandolin for South Indian classical music |
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06 Jul 09 - 11:19 AM (#2672886) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Richard Bridge If it is crap, that doesn't necessarily mean it can't be folk either. Consider the Chris Sugden explanation. |
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06 Jul 09 - 11:20 AM (#2672887) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Richard Bridge Come to think of it, I wonder if it would work to do "Athenrae" in reggae? I really think it might. |
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06 Jul 09 - 11:27 AM (#2672898) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Rifleman (inactive) "Is it music? Jim Carroll " In a word, yes...it's called having a good time. Personally my favourites in this genre a South Wales own Blue Horses |
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06 Jul 09 - 11:34 AM (#2672906) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Jack Campin This is some people's idea of a good time. I'm not sure there's much to choose between them. |
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06 Jul 09 - 11:36 AM (#2672909) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Rifleman (inactive) the expected comeback from one of thew usual suspects *LOL* |
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06 Jul 09 - 11:56 AM (#2672933) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Richard Bridge Holy Hermione, Rifleman, I quite agree, BlueHorses are excellent - but surely they have now permanently split haven't they? They were looking for a new bassist last year, and Lizzie Prendergast was recording with Eden Hill - and her myspace and facebook are welcoming new (but unspecific) things in her life. |
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06 Jul 09 - 12:13 PM (#2672949) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Jack Campin I just had a listen to Bluehorses, who I'd only vaguely heard of before - not bad at all. Vocals a bit Dalek-like, but interesting arrangements. |
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06 Jul 09 - 12:21 PM (#2672956) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: GUEST,Russ In practical terms this forum keeps dealing with the wrong question. The useful question is not "What is folk music?" but "How does a particular organization/venue/entity/DJ define folk music?" For example, if you want to play the Philly Folk Festival, your burning question is "How does the Philly Folk Festival define 'Folk'?" (Beats me). It might not be career enhancing to argue with them about their definition. Whatever the case might once have been, "Folk" is definitely not univocal today. Russ (Permanent GUEST) |
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06 Jul 09 - 12:25 PM (#2672962) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Rifleman (inactive) We have a convert !!!!! *LOL* I'd heared about the split and Lizzie's (That's Prendergast, not Cornish by the way *LOL*)new directions. I constantly annoy some of our neighbours with Blue Horses Elizabeth's myspace space Elizabeth Prendergast watch the live killer version of Waes Hael (that's Wassail to the Anglos *LOL*) some would call this fiddle abuse, but what do they know? |
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06 Jul 09 - 12:27 PM (#2672964) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Jack Campin "Gregorian chant into sean nos"... Where did you get that from? I can think of no reason to believe it. |
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06 Jul 09 - 12:32 PM (#2672968) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: GUEST Waes Hael from the album Thirteen Fires by Blue Horses wæs hæl: the original Anglo Saxon spelling |
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06 Jul 09 - 02:36 PM (#2673087) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Richard Bridge I've been into Bluehorses for several years. I used to post on their forums about mandoplanks. However I was listening to a program on Radio 3 the other day about the evolutions of Irish music, mostly from the 1800s as Irish classical music came out from under allegedly colonialist influences (also some recordings of McCormack and O'Sullivan) and the historian definitely spoke of the influences of early religious music on sean nos. I was only half listening though, so cannot be clear exactly what he said. |
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06 Jul 09 - 02:41 PM (#2673089) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Jack Campin Exercise in funking things up, Hungarian this time: The Devil's Path on shepherd's flute (a minute in) Kerekes folk-rock band version, The Devil's Path is a minute in Remixed by Uptown Felaz, with Lego I guess I'm glad they tried but I can't say I quite see the need for all that. Anyone done The Cruel Mother in Lego yet? |
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06 Jul 09 - 02:51 PM (#2673093) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Mick Woods The Dropkick Murphys are a fine punk-folk Rock band |
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06 Jul 09 - 02:57 PM (#2673100) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Jim Carroll "Is it music?" It was intended as a wind-up - thanks for obliging. Jim Carroll |
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06 Jul 09 - 03:22 PM (#2673116) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Rifleman (inactive) "Is it music?" It was intended as a wind-up - thanks for obliging. Jim Carroll And thank YOU for obliging..a predictable reply from a predictable person, you rally do need a new script writer, Carroll *LOL* (one, of course, that matches the 1954 definition) |
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06 Jul 09 - 03:35 PM (#2673128) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Jim Carroll Doe4s it 'rally' Jim Carroll |
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06 Jul 09 - 06:30 PM (#2673313) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Spleen Cringe The French are pretty damned good at it... And one of my favourite bands, Malicorne |
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06 Jul 09 - 06:45 PM (#2673328) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: John P If it's a traditional folk song played by a rock band, it's still a traditional folk song. If it's a contemporary folk song played by a rock band, it's a rock song. If it's somewhere in between a traditional folk song and a contemporary folk song, you get to choose, just like you get to choose if it's closer to traditional or to contemporary. Spleen Cringe, I've always thought that even when Malicorne wasn't using electric guitar or drums they were better at doing rock versions of traditional songs than just about anyone. Great band! |
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06 Jul 09 - 07:08 PM (#2673360) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Isn't ALL music 'folk' music? And wasn't/isn't ALL folk music written by Singer Songwriters? And WHO was it who decided about 1954 anyway? Were they folkies? And if so, were they Celtic? Did they Rock? Were there instruments old or new? And what kind of shape were they in back then? Indeed, what kind of shape are they in now? Do they have Instrument Droop? Life is sooooo confusing, ain't it? :0) |
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06 Jul 09 - 07:32 PM (#2673378) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: John P Isn't ALL music 'folk' music? In an academic sense, maybe. In any practical, music-making sense, no. And wasn't/isn't ALL folk music written by Singer Songwriters? Not traditional folk music, by the time it's traditional. And WHO was it who decided about 1954 anyway? A bunch of academics. Not important in any practical, music-making sense. Were they folkies? Don't know. Not important in any practical, music-making sense. And if so, were they Celtic? Don't know. Not important in any practical, music-making sense. Did they Rock? Probably not, in 1954. Maybe a little early rock and roll, which isn't the same as rock. Not important in any practical, music-making sense. Were there instruments old or new? Yes. Life is sooooo confusing, ain't it? Nope. |
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06 Jul 09 - 08:56 PM (#2673439) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: GUEST,Michele Callaghan I haven't read the whole thread but in my opinion Celtic rock cannot be folk music but it can be folk rock. |
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06 Jul 09 - 09:09 PM (#2673450) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: michaelr Another pointless debate. It's folk music if it is recognizable as such, i.e. if it sounds like folk music. |
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06 Jul 09 - 10:55 PM (#2673510) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: GUEST,leeneia No kind of rock music is folk music. Any kind of music that costs thousands of dollars to perform (for electric guitars, keyboards, drumsets, amps, cables, computers, staff and lights) is not folk music. |
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06 Jul 09 - 11:09 PM (#2673515) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: olddude no I think it is celtic rock |
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06 Jul 09 - 11:36 PM (#2673530) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: irishenglish As I have written on here before, the day the very first folk ballad or tune was transcribed, some could say at the time the music changed. When the very first of the same was recorded, for the very first time ever, or at best, for the very first time as means of a commercial recording, the music changed. When Sweeney's Men, and Fairport Convention, and Steeleye, and The Albion Band "plugged in" the music changed. It matters not one whit to me however, as I see that anything that keeps the music going is valid. I've heard Jools Holland do a swing version of The Maiden's Lament...it works! I've heard Pogues, and Dropkicks, and the Oysterband thrash to the music, along with their own original material. One could throw this back to say, does having a fiddle or a banjo or what have you, along with electric instruments make them a rock band? SOme I certainly like more than others, but if it had not been for Fairport, for me personally, I would not be listening to any of it, not Martin Carthy, not Walter Pardon, not Seamus Ennis, or Micho Russell-none of it, which is why the labels, is it or isn't it mean nothing to me. |
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07 Jul 09 - 12:23 AM (#2673543) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Jayto I don't consider Dropkick folk even though I dig what they do. I think bands like them even though they are not folk can light a spark in someone to discover folk. I was turned on to folk by Steve Earle's Copperhead Road. It is not folk but to me at the time it sounded like pure Appalachian folk. I wanted to hear more songs that sounded like that and before long I learned all about folk I could find. I now know the difference but it took a non-folk song to get me turned on to folk. I know the same will happen with others. |
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07 Jul 09 - 02:40 AM (#2673583) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Spleen Cringe It's folk music if it is recognizable as such, i.e. if it sounds like folk music What, like this? love will tear us apart |
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07 Jul 09 - 03:03 AM (#2673588) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Gervase Is a manticore a mammal? |
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07 Jul 09 - 03:27 AM (#2673597) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Err, like isn't "Celtic Rock" just a sub genre of Folk Rock, which is a sub genre of Folk? Or something? Can someone give me a marketing phrase for this: Solomon's Song I'm going to learn to sing it for the next sing around. Can a song from the Bible, be a folk song? |
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07 Jul 09 - 04:14 AM (#2673622) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe Crow Sister, my marketing phrase would be "the second best song on one of the most brilliant albums of all time. Second only to the Lion of Judah"... is is folk? Who knows? Who cares when it's that good? I'd also give Moyshe McStiff and the Tartan Lancers of the Sacred Heart my vote for best ever album title... |
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07 Jul 09 - 05:23 AM (#2673662) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Can't remember how I stumbled on it now. Probably rummaging through links on Tubey. Well now that I've looked up further info on C.O.B., looks like they're a bit cool then! |
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07 Jul 09 - 06:45 AM (#2673702) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe I'll add COB to the list, then... |
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07 Jul 09 - 11:09 PM (#2674371) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Neil D Someone said this was a"Another pointless debate. I disagree. It's giving people a chance to share videoa of their favorite folk-ish bands, like Mutenrohi. |
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08 Jul 09 - 01:37 AM (#2674399) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: michaelr Mutenrohi is Galician, yes? I like the sound, but that tune is a little too close to Capercaillie for comfort. I still say the debate over what is or isn't folk is pointless. If it sounds like folk, it is. |
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08 Jul 09 - 03:10 AM (#2674428) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Spleen Cringe "If it sounds like folk, it is" Doesn't this imply that all folk sounds the same?... whether English or Chinese or Somalian or Bulgarian or Bolivian? Hmmm. Not convinced. |
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08 Jul 09 - 09:03 AM (#2674665) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: GUEST,leeneia If it costs a boatload of money and it takes several hours and several people to set up, it isn't folk music. Four days ago I visited some people. They had two hammer dulcimers in the living room. We asked them to play something for us. They did. Time elapsed: 5 minutes. |
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08 Jul 09 - 09:34 AM (#2674686) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: GUEST,Tunesmith I hated Thin Lizzy's "Kilgarry Mountain" with its phoney American accent. Dreadful. But, somehow, when Irish artists perform trad songs in a rock setting, they can't seem to avoid drifting into those sort of accents. |
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08 Jul 09 - 02:18 PM (#2674928) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: GUEST,Neil D Yes, Mutenrohi is Galician which means they are Celtic. Just guessing, but there are probably more bagpipes per capita in Galicia and Asturia than anywhere in the world including Scotland. BTW I like Capercaille myself. I think Karen Matheson's voice is beautiful. Speaking of beautiful, here is another fine Galician Gaita(Bagpipe) Player, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss_LuYP1VBA. |
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08 Jul 09 - 02:23 PM (#2674929) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: GUEST,Neil D Susana Seivane |
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08 Jul 09 - 02:26 PM (#2674931) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Maryrrf It doesn't fit into my definition of folk music. Some Celtic Rock (not much, in my opinion) is very good but most of it I find rather pointless. At a festival I was working at I detected something in the loud noises that were coming from one of the 'Celtic Rock' stages that sounded familiar. I finally realized it was "Broome of the Cowdenowes", done with a squalling electric guitar, screaming vocals and a loud, obnoxious drum kit. I didn't see the point. The charm of the song lies in the beautiful melody (totally obscured by the sheer volume and the overwhelming base and drums) and the lovely words, which were lost in the cacaphony. ???? |
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08 Jul 09 - 04:33 PM (#2675055) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: Rifleman (inactive) "They had two hammer dulcimers in the living room." and it took 5 minutes to do the set up...that's not folk music..!!my partner and I sang unaccompanied, time taken was as long as it took to decide what we were going to sing, that was about 2 mins.. |
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08 Jul 09 - 06:41 PM (#2675202) Subject: RE: Is celtic rock folk music From: evansakes "They had two hammer dulcimers in the living room. We asked them to play something for us. They did. Time elapsed: 5 minutes" If that time actually includes getting both instruments in tune with each other then hats off and respect! ....now THAT'S what I call folk music :-) |