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06 Jul 09 - 06:29 PM (#2673310) Subject: Question for ancient order of bucket menders. From: Penny S. My singing "There's a hole in my bucket" this evening at the Foresters raised the question of just wehat sort of bucket could be mended with straw (or even odder, A straw) and just how this repair could be effected. Any ideas? Penny |
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06 Jul 09 - 08:54 PM (#2673434) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: The Fooles Troupe Wood...n't you like to know... :-0 (caulk it dear henry...) or leather... |
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06 Jul 09 - 10:52 PM (#2673509) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: GUEST,leeneia Take a wooden bucket that has a small hole in it. Jam a piece of wheat straw (not a drinking straw) into the hole. It'll do for a little while. |
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06 Jul 09 - 11:07 PM (#2673513) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: Joe Offer With a straw, dear Penny, dear Penny, dear Penny; With a straw, dear Penny, dear Penny, Have faith!!! Oh, these young people! They question folk songs, rather than singing them. Everybody knows you can fix a bucket with a straw. It says so right in the song.... -Joe- |
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06 Jul 09 - 11:23 PM (#2673524) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: wysiwyg Expands when wet. Highly absorbent, straw-- why they use it to soak up horse piss. ~S~ |
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07 Jul 09 - 01:58 AM (#2673565) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: Rafflesbear Isn't it being a bit fussy to say that your straw is too long - certainly for presentation purposes a long straw might look untidy but the excess would not cause a problem with regard to holding water Therefore a temporary repair with a long straw and a bit sticking out would suffice to fetch the water necessary to wet the stone before sharpening the knife to cut the excess off Sounds to me like a pretty poor excuse for inaction |
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07 Jul 09 - 03:19 AM (#2673595) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: Newport Boy Henry's whole part in the song is to make poor excuses for inaction. Don't criticise him - you'll lose the song altogether. Phil |
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07 Jul 09 - 11:17 AM (#2673927) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: Eric the Viking If someone doesn't have an axe, dear Henry, dear Henry.An axe.(rpt) I'd put my finger in the hole dear liza, dear Liza.The hole.(rpt) And carry the straw,dear Henry, dear Henry etc. Then having obtained sufficient water in my finger plugged bucket, I'd wet my stone and soak some straw. Putting several cut pieces of straw, having used my newly sharpened axe,into the hole. Then, again using my newly sharpened axe, I'd cut a wooden plug tappered to fit in the hole from the inside out and stuff that in my bucket forcing the straw and wood together to form a reasonable seal under presure to allow for even modest shrinkage as the plug dries out. However, I'd make sure the bucket never dried out completely but always having a covering of water. To answer the first question posed. A metal bucket of galvanised iron, a leather bucket, a canvas bucket and maybe a polypropylene bucket. Not a rigid plastic one, nor a bucket made of pottery unless it was maybe just non glazed earthernware. |
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07 Jul 09 - 02:33 PM (#2674074) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: Eric the Viking On the other hand..nobody has given a clear indication of the size of the hole. |
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07 Jul 09 - 03:36 PM (#2674117) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: Rafflesbear If there is a single hole in the bucket as the song relates then I think two things stem from that - firstly the hole must be in the bottom of the bucket otherwise it could contain some water, certainly sufficient to wet the sharpening stone secondly that the water is to be drawn from a well, otherwise by tilting the bucket away from the hole you could again get some water in it - this would also negate the finger in the hole solution We can therefore gather that there is no running water in the household, and no stream or lake in the vicinity - and that it isn't raining - I am getting visions of the American mid-west here - the lack of water does not suggest the UK Henry (or Georgie for you Penny) is obviously laid back and I can quite picture him sitting in front of a wooden shack somewhere on the prairies while his spouse (is that too big an assumption to make) gets frustrated at his demeanour They are probably not wealthy nor do they live near a town and are not on the internet - otherwise you might get - There's a hole in my bucket dear Liza dear Liza etc Then buy a new one dear Henry dear Henry are the names Liza and Henry more popular in one region than another and do they give a clue to the ethnicity of the subjects? That they own a blunt axe would indicate that they live near woodland and that either Henry or more likely Liza has been using it a great deal can we glean any more from the song? |
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07 Jul 09 - 03:43 PM (#2674119) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: MMario I always figured Henry was a layabout teenager and Liza was his older sister trying to keep the homestead going. |
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08 Jul 09 - 04:22 AM (#2674453) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: Penny S. Rafflesbear's comment about Georgie is because he heard me sing my family version, with no Henry, and a knife, not an axe - which really pushes the whole thing into the truly surreal, doesn't it? Both the male and female are stupid, with narrowly focussed intelligence - Liza focusses on making the complainer look stupid with her responses, and he focusses on exposing hers in not seeing where he is going - and she must know how his mind works by now. It took me a long time to notice how idiotic she was. Caulking a split wooden bucket seems most likely - but is a split a hole? Or is the straw as ridiculous as the axe? Penny |
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08 Jul 09 - 05:47 AM (#2674498) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: Eric the Viking Perhaps they are not stupid. Perhaps they both have, to a greater or lesser extent, learning difficulties that are not fully understood and therefor are misjudged as being fully functioning people. Pehaps with some adult intervention and learning support they may be able to work out a better solution? It might be that lack of formal education, given that someone is suggesting them isolated in midwest, and the missed opportunities for an educator to either develop their skills or recognise their personal difficulties has led to a complete misjudgement of their social competency. |
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08 Jul 09 - 06:12 AM (#2674524) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: Newport Boy Eric, I think that once again the apparently slow and stupid country folk are taking advantage of the gullibility of the sophisticated city folk. Follow your line of reasoning and you'll be suggesting training in bucket making and repair - which they can't pay for, so you will. It won't be long before they've convinced you that it would be a good idea to invest in a bucket factory - on their land, of course. They won't need to repair leaking buckets then - they probably won't need to buy them. Never trust an apparently poor farmer! Phil |
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08 Jul 09 - 06:45 AM (#2674548) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: Dead Horse A pump connected to a suitable plumbing system would soon make this song redundant. Then they could leave the well alone, huh? |
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08 Jul 09 - 10:47 AM (#2674741) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: Eric the Viking Phil. I hadn't considered that. Being a gullible country dweller myself, living on an island, it did not occur to me that it could be so. I have seen examples of such myself living in a small community now that I come to think about it. However, what if there was gold or oil in undiscovered huge quantities on their piece of land? The investment would be quite a good one. Unless you suggest that they have already investigated the possibility and drawn a blank or kept it quiet. It could explain why there is a hole in the bucket from carrying gravel and trying to pan with it. I do agree there is no such thing as a poor farmer even though many walk around with their arses hanging out. The suggestion of alternative technology using a wind driven pump and plumbing is admirable. If these two lacklustre souls could be persuaded to buy a wind turbine (using their secret gold reserves which they have already acquired), not only could they pump water by the electricity generated, but they could also use an electric grindstone to sharpen the axe for future use. |
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08 Jul 09 - 06:25 PM (#2675186) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: Rafflesbear Don't forget that the tinker couldn't mend his pots and pans without John Barleycorn That could have been different as well if 'they hired men with the scythes that needed sharpening...' |
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08 Jul 09 - 06:44 PM (#2675205) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: Eric the Viking Ah, but Joihn Barleycorn must die ! |
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09 Jul 09 - 08:25 AM (#2675601) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: Snuffy When I spill some, he dyes my shirt for me! |
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09 Jul 09 - 09:36 AM (#2675655) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: Mysha Hi, The German versions speak of straw, not a straw. The reason to use straw is that it will follow the shape of the hole, where rigid materials wouldn't, and it then absorbs water to fill available space. The German also has Beil, which could be an axe, but could equally well be a hatchet. Any tool with a wooden handle and a blade, used for cutting by hitting force would probably be a Beil. I'm not so sure the solutions were intended as silly, in a time when cost of material still gave objects value. Mysha |
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30 Jul 09 - 10:27 AM (#2690311) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: Jim Dixon More objections: 1. An axe that was too dull to cut a straw would be very dull indeed. In fact, I doubt that such an axe could exist and still be called an axe. 2. Even if the axe wouldn't cut the straw, you could cut or break the straw some other way, such as by biting it. 3. If you really needed to sharpen the axe, you could use a dry whetstone. What's the point of wetting a whetstone anyway? I have sharpened many a tool with a dry whetstone, and it worked just fine. 4. If you really needed a wet whetstone, you could spit on it, or carry the stone to the well and wet it there. All it takes is a few drops, not a bucketful. Even without a bucket, you could dip a rag into the well and get enough water to wet a whetstone. |
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30 Jul 09 - 12:18 PM (#2690371) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: Penny S. The version I learned used a knife, not an axe. And don't forget that cereal stalks are covered with silica - ancient flint sickle blades are identified by the polish goven them from this. I doubt a dentist would approve of the damage done to teeth by "cutting" the straw. And how do you do that, anyway, if the straw is already in the hole? I can think of other ways of wetting the stone. Penny |
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03 Jul 15 - 10:48 AM (#3720767) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: GUEST,Startoker You're all wrong. In the old days, the bottoms of wooden buckets were made from multiple slats of wood instead of a single piece of wood. If you left the bucket out in the cold with a little water in it and it froze, the spaces between the slats would expand and comprise a leak or "hole". Wedging a single wheat straw (horizontally) into the gap would repair the leak for reasons (expands when wet etc.) stated above. You would need the straw to be the proper length to fill the entire "crack". If too long it would need to be cut to the proper size. |
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03 Jul 15 - 11:30 AM (#3720773) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: GUEST,Kampervan Wow!! That actually sounds logical and sensible. What are you doing posting on Mudcat? |
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03 Jul 15 - 12:54 PM (#3720794) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: EBarnacle In the era the song was created, the real bucket repair would have been to replace the ill-fitting stave, preferable with a new, dry oaken stave. This would absorb water and seal itself into place. Using this approach, over time eventually the whole bucket would be replaced but still be the same bucket. I've got my grandpa's ax. It's had several new handles and a couple of new heads but it's still grandpa's ax. |
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03 Jul 15 - 02:19 PM (#3720814) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: Uncle_DaveO Then they could leave the well alone, huh? That reminds me of the old folk tune (song?) called The Old Doctor Fell in the Well. To which the answer is, "The doctor should tend to the sick, and leave the well alone." Dave Oesterreich |
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04 Jul 15 - 10:47 AM (#3720949) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: Uncle_DaveO Rafflesbear had a couple of questions: I am getting visions of the American mid-west here - the lack of water does not suggest the UK and are the names Liza and Henry more popular in one region than another and do they give a clue to the ethnicity of the subjects? I've always (mis?)understood or felt this song to be from the southern Appalachian mountains. Mainly this is because of the names of the characters, Liza and Henry. Liza is a short or pet version of Elizabeth, with great historical and cultural connections to England, and Henry is, likewise. The southern Appalachians were mainly settled from England. While I haven't done or even read of a name census of the US, I expect that one would find Elizabeth or Liza and Henry disproportionately represented there. Hardly conclusive evidence, of course, but that's my impression, and I'm sticking with it. Dave Oesterreich |
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05 Jul 15 - 05:21 AM (#3721076) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: GUEST,Eddie1 - Sans cookie as ever Back in my childhood days, when you could buy a 3-piece suit, a three-course meal and a 3rd-class railway ticket AND get change out of thruppence, you could buy a thingy (a technical engineering term) for mending saucepans although it could obviously be adapted to mend buckets. It was basically two washers and a nut and bolt. You put your left washer in and your right washer out then put the bolt through the middle, affixed the nut and tightened everything up. The washers could be bent to cover holes where the vertical bit met the horizontal bit and that's what it's all about! I am now endeavouring to fit this into a new verse for the song. Eddie |
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12 Sep 15 - 04:09 PM (#3736990) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: GUEST Amazing but true My mum taught herself how to make a straw skep That is an old fashioned Bee Hive She recently had an article written about her in Country Life Magazine Subsequently she recieved a letter from an Austrian Lady whose father had made buckets from straw Think thatch it keeps out rain and snow for many years! |
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15 Sep 19 - 05:43 PM (#4008989) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: GUEST,Lemming Well isn't this thread a treasure. I was bitten by a pet rabbit while trying to fill her straw bowl, and one thought led to another and here I am. Nothing to add, but one good necropost deserves another. |
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15 Sep 19 - 05:57 PM (#4008993) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: meself Hmmm, let's see - she's got a hole in her bucket, she's trying to get Henry to fill it, is that it? Seems to me like poor Henry is a little slow on the uptake ..... |
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16 Sep 19 - 07:28 PM (#4009194) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: keberoxu Does Mudcat have the parody lyric, There's A Hole In My Budget, by Michael Flanders ? |
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17 Sep 19 - 07:37 AM (#4009264) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch See the origins thread. Lyrics to Wenn der Pott aber nu en Loch hat are over there. Hillbilly side of my family are all Hessians, serious beer drinkers. Der pott is a wooden tankard or mug. Just plain weird to hear Belafonte & Odetta cover it back when. wiki: Heinrich und Liese |
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06 Feb 21 - 09:45 AM (#4091769) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: GUEST,Mr Spob Sorry for coming so late to the discussion. I’ve really enjoyed it. We definitely had Liza and Henry and a knife. I always assumed it was a wooden bucket which had split due to drying out as described by others. Making it entirely unusable as the ‘hole’ goes all the way across the bottom. But for me the whole point of the song is the psychological ‘game’ being played by Henry who complains about every solution that Liza offers - later referred to as ‘Poor me’ or ‘There’s nothing you can do to help me’ by Eric Berne in Games people play 1964. He doesn’t really want help, he wants attention but passes it off as hopelessness and helplessness. |
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09 Feb 21 - 07:11 AM (#4092268) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: GUEST "Somewhere" I've got a recording of a Dutch version of this- mijn emmer is kapot. The protagonists are Lieverd Dorkus (the man) and Stomme Lese. I don't speak enough Dutch to know whether one solution offered by Lese was a little boy's finger in the hole. |
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22 Feb 21 - 09:59 PM (#4094380) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: GUEST I never judged Liza or Henry. I did realize they were from a poorer part of town, so I had compassion for them and admired their conversation I was a kid and thought all of that. |
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23 Feb 21 - 06:09 PM (#4094512) Subject: RE: Tech: Q for ancient order of bucket menders. From: Murpholly There's a hole in my bucket dear liza Then mend it dear Georgie With what shall I mend it dear Liza ith straw dear Georgie If the straw be too long Then cut it dear Lis\ With what shall I cut it dear Liza With a knife dear Georgie If the knife be too blunt dear Liza Then sharpen it dear Georgie With what shall I sharpen it dear Liza With a stone dear Georgie If the stone be too dry Then wet it dear Georgie With what shall I wet it dear Liza With water dear George But there's a hole in my bucket dear Liza |