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12 Jul 09 - 07:19 AM (#2678089) Subject: BS: Peloton From: WalkaboutsVerse I've been a tad surprised that, during the last couple of days of the Tour de France, Armstrong hasn't made more of a push for the yellow jersey - if Paganini came back from the dead, I doubt he'd play second-fiddle! He is 37 now - should we be questioning Armstrong's leg-strength?! And, whatever the racing, great shots, from the host TV broadcaster, of some beautiful places - one or two of which I enjoyed visiting on my walkabouts. |
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12 Jul 09 - 09:16 AM (#2678142) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: artbrooks He is sitting in third, something like 10 seconds off the leader (who will drop off quickly) and 2 behind Contador. I expect him to try to hold right there for at least another week - it's possible to win the Tour and NEVER win a stage. |
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12 Jul 09 - 12:07 PM (#2678262) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: WalkaboutsVerse I agree, AB, but if he'd gone with Contador on that first climbing stage, or pushed to close the gap, he'd have had the prestige of the yellow, that he surely wants, for a few days now. |
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12 Jul 09 - 12:33 PM (#2678280) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: Bill D There is SO much strategy in trying to win this race. If one goes all out to get in yellow and stay there, the whole team become a target and folks who might 'help' at one point will cease helping. Any of the top 3 in Astana (as well as 2-3 others) are capable of trying to win, and it is not clear yet that Armstrong can beat Contador. There is no use in wearing one's self out when there are no major challenges to overall position. The point is to win in Paris, not to be as macho as possible. It mat well come down to who is feeling strongest in the Alps...and *IF* Armstrong, Contador & Leipheimer are all still within 10-15 seconds, it will be very interesting! Armstrong always wants to win, but Contador would love to prove HIS win was no fluke, and Leipheimer...and Cadel Evans and a couple others have never won. I personally look for the 1st day in the Alps to be a test to see who is ready...and then 2 stages of "Ok, lets go SEE who is best!" |
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12 Jul 09 - 01:10 PM (#2678315) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: gnu I think your analysis is accurate, Bill. Although, the second day in the Alps may tell the tale because it may be a choice determined by peaking (sorry) on the proper day. If Armstrong is peaking on day one, he will go for it. If not, he will have to go for it on day two, depending on the times. Of course, the same applies to them all and they are all there for a reason. |
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12 Jul 09 - 07:11 PM (#2678641) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: Bill D some interesting reading Seems Contador's sprint the other day was against orders. |
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13 Jul 09 - 05:20 AM (#2678887) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: WalkaboutsVerse And how about the team time trial: I accept that the team is important to whoever has the yellow in Paris, anyway - but does the inclusion of a team time trial make it too important..? I.e: is it fair on contenders in less-strong teams..? |
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13 Jul 09 - 08:42 AM (#2679019) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: wysiwyg What we have to remember, Bill, is that Armstrong does not own this team as he did the previous teams Bruyneel directed for him. The commentators keep calling it "Lance's Team," but it's not his team. This means that Bruyneel, who sets the race strategy and reports to the team owner who pays him, gets to say who rides for whom. The current posturing is for the influencing of the owner-- "Who do you REALLY believe can win this puppy for you?"-- and the riders-- "Who will youse guys carry to the top of Ventoux?"-- more than for anyone else. ~S~ |
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13 Jul 09 - 09:48 AM (#2679058) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: catspaw49 I think the whole thing would be better if there were more cheating. Racing of any sort has a fine tradition of cheating. Sorrowfully, rules in most racing types have been so tightly written and enforced that another fine tradition has been trampled in the dust. I think with the fine folks of Mudcat, traditions are important! So write in to the governing body of your favorite racing organization and tell them to open things up and bring cheating back to their sport. Its the tradition and it needs to be respected. Spaw |
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13 Jul 09 - 10:06 AM (#2679069) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: Uncle_DaveO But Spaw, if you do that, it's legal, so it's no longer cheating. A Catch-22 for ya! Dave Oesterreich |
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13 Jul 09 - 10:08 AM (#2679072) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: catspaw49 LOL @ Unc.... Spaw |
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13 Jul 09 - 11:49 AM (#2679141) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: Bill D "What we have to remember, Bill, is that Armstrong does not own this team ..." Oh, I am aware of that....the relevance of my comment is that Contador, if we are to believe the story is correct, was trying to ride on his own. Lance made some comment about.."well...I have to follow the rules.." and "Alberto is ambitious.." I'd suspect Bruyneel has 'had a talk' with the various parties.... Yesterdays stage was relatively slow because no one in the breakaway was really important. Astana could have totally dominated if they needed to....instead, they got an easy day with little pressure or danger. |
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14 Jul 09 - 12:23 PM (#2680016) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: WalkaboutsVerse Good thing the scenic shots are so good: I thought the stage today was far more "tour" than "race" - until the last 10km, i.e. |
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14 Jul 09 - 04:08 PM (#2680248) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: Bill D That's almost always the way with flat stages. The sprinters play at the end, and most everyone else just tries to avoid trouble and stay close. |
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14 Jul 09 - 05:57 PM (#2680320) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: artbrooks Exactly right, Bill. Don't look for anything much to happen until they get into the Alps next week. |
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16 Jul 09 - 04:59 AM (#2681251) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: WalkaboutsVerse Yesterday was similar - mostly flat, breakaway caught in last 10km, then Cavendish sprinting in great form...bit more climbing today, though, it seems..? |
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16 Jul 09 - 05:04 PM (#2681727) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: WalkaboutsVerse The climbs tomorrow should make things more interesting... |
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16 Jul 09 - 07:07 PM (#2681801) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: Bill D Just a change of who goes off in the breakaway... |
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17 Jul 09 - 05:07 PM (#2682470) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: WalkaboutsVerse Yes Bill - and not much else happened re. the main contenders..? |
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17 Jul 09 - 05:59 PM (#2682501) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: Bill D One BIG thing happened....Leipheimer is out with a broken wrist! Now Poooor Astana only has 3 guys in the top 10. |
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18 Jul 09 - 04:01 PM (#2682959) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: WalkaboutsVerse I was thinking along those lines, Bill - perhaps the main reason why, thus far, it's been much more "tour" than "race" is that 4/now 3 of the top riders are all on the one team. |
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20 Jul 09 - 08:11 AM (#2683795) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: WalkaboutsVerse It took a very steep climb indeed, but now, with a week to go, we have a race - fine effort from Wiggins yesterday. |
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20 Jul 09 - 08:59 AM (#2683824) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: artbrooks Contador's break on the climb yesterday put him over a minute ahead (and in yellow), and Armstrong basically said he is out of competition and will be a support rider for the last week. Remains to be seen. |
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20 Jul 09 - 03:35 PM (#2684025) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: gnu Oh my... hadn't checked in yet today. |
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20 Jul 09 - 04:41 PM (#2684060) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: Bill D It seems evident that Armstrong can't beat Contador on climbs....but Lance is STILL one of the best climbers and all-around riders today. He could end up on the podium......and...Contador could fall down like Liepheimer. It does happen. Best to stay close, ride support like Klöden and all 3 could be close in Paris. (I'm SURE Astana is reading my advice... *grin*) |
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20 Jul 09 - 05:07 PM (#2684075) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: gnu Well... as much as would like to see Lance stuff it up the asses of his nasty detractors over the years, may the best man pedal his ass off. Seriously, Lance is the best there ever was. He need prove nothing. |
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21 Jul 09 - 02:16 PM (#2684637) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: WalkaboutsVerse Fantastic shots of the Alps in today's stage, but not much change among the leaders. |
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23 Jul 09 - 12:57 PM (#2686092) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: Wolfgang Seriously, Lance is the best there ever was. I disagree (well, we know that is just a subjective ranking). For me the best is still Eddy Merckx (that's an opinion I share with, among many others, Armstrong). Today, the cyclists take one big event and everything else is just preparation. Merckx in his time raced (and won) all the springtime classics like Paris-Roubaix, Milano-San Remo, Liege-Bastogne-Liege. He still is the only cyclist who has won all jerseys (green, red, yellow, polka dot) more than once and even in one year all of them in one Tour. He would have been awarded the white jersey too if that had existed then. He has won more Tour etappes than anyone else and leads by number of days wearing the yellow jersey. He was a man for the long solo flights over several cols, something oner rarely sees today. My sentimental heroes: Joop Zoetemelk, one time winner and 6 times second in the Tour, who took part 16 times and arrived each single time. Raymond Poulidor, who made the Paris podium eight times without a single Tour win. He not even once wore the yellow jersey and is in my opinion the best ever cyclist who has no yellow jersey to show. He should have won in 1964, but Anquetil bluffed legendarily at Puy de Dome. Wolfgang |
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23 Jul 09 - 01:31 PM (#2686118) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: WalkaboutsVerse Yes, and from what I can gather, Wolfgang, the Tour de France was already a huge event when Merckx won all jerseys. I was surprised that Armstong came back, but now I think it's to do with his own team that he's just announced - maybe he'll be a rider, briefly, then a director of it..? Also, how about the idea of a most-stage-winners jersey, whereby, if 2 or more cyclists were on the same number, it would stay with the first one to reach that number..? |
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25 Jul 09 - 03:51 PM (#2686998) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: Bill D I only became a fan when Greg LeMond began winning, but I saw the other day a presentation on the career of Fausto Coppi, who won only twice, but seemed to be an amazing talent in his day. "dominant international cyclist of the years each side of the second world war. His successes earned him the title Il Campionissimo, or champion of champions. He was an all-around racing cyclist, he was the best in both climbing and time trialing, and was also a great sprinter. He won five times the Giro d'Italia (1940, 1947, 1949, 1952, 1953), twice the Tour de France (1949 and 1952), the World Championship in 1953, the Giro di Lombardia in 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949 and 1954, the Milan-Sanremo in 1946, 1948 and 1949, the Paris-Roubaix and the La Flèche Wallonne in 1950 and set the hour record (45.798 km) in 1942." |
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26 Jul 09 - 09:25 AM (#2687271) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: WalkaboutsVerse I've watched bits and pieces over the years via SBS in Australia, plus Eurosport here in England, and remember back to the likes of Fignon from France and Indurain from Spain. And, as you suggest, Bill, there probably are some who could have won more Tours but chose to "smell the roses"; the fact remains, though - Armstong HAS won 7. |
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26 Jul 09 - 12:40 PM (#2687374) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: gnu And placed third as well. |
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26 Jul 09 - 12:47 PM (#2687380) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: artbrooks No surprises today...I can't remember the last time the race was decided on the Champs, but it's been many years. For me, the two biggest surprises were that so many people expected Armstrong to pull it out of his hat again and, conversely, that he did as well as he did. |
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26 Jul 09 - 12:57 PM (#2687391) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: WalkaboutsVerse Yes, Gnu and Art - but I think one regret Armstrong may have is that if he'd pushed harder, and gone with Contador, during that early stage, he (rather than Noncentini) would have held the yellow (again) for several days. |
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26 Jul 09 - 02:45 PM (#2687470) Subject: RE: BS: Peloton From: gnu Perhaps, but, in the end, at his age, why not go for all the gold? Hehehe... thar's gold in them that hills! In any case, it was an amazing spectacle of human mental and physical perseverence and endurance. Everyone on wheels in "Le Tour" is to be lauded. No losers... only winners. |