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14 Aug 09 - 10:11 PM (#2700667) Subject: Dylan picked up for street walking From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Bob Dylan was picked up by police while walking the streets of Long Branch, NJ today. He was killing time before a concert in Lakewood, NJ and wandered into a low income housing area of Long Branch, looking at houses. Someone reported him as suspicious and called the police. Two twenty-something cops picked him up, had no idea who he was, and Dylan had no ID. They drove him back to his hotel where his crew vouched for him. Only in the Garden State!!!! "In Long Branch the way things go, if you're Bob you might as well not show up on the street unless you want to draw the heat...." |
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14 Aug 09 - 10:17 PM (#2700669) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Little Hawk "Someone reported him as suspicious and called the police." Ha! ;-D Bob Dylan is suspicious....of the crazy society that's all around him. He always was. I can't say I blame him. |
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14 Aug 09 - 10:21 PM (#2700671) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: WFDU - Ron Olesko You are putting him on a pedestal again LH. He just loves blending in to society, always has. Most of the time he is left alone. |
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14 Aug 09 - 10:35 PM (#2700676) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: WFDU - Ron Olesko oops... I said "today" in the initial story, it actually happened in July. The story was reported today. |
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14 Aug 09 - 11:30 PM (#2700693) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Little Hawk No, I'm just saying that he's suspicious OF society. I'm not saying he doesn't want to blend in (and not be noticed), I'm saying just he's suspicious OF society, that's all. And why wouldn't he be? Have a listen to the songs he writes, after all. Consider songs like "It's Allright, Ma" or "Desolation Row" or a great many others. It's pretty clear that he thinks things are kind of weird out there, and he's right. They are. I am suspicious of society....but I blend in and don't get noticed, because I am not particularly suspicious myself from society's point of view. It's a play on words I'm doing. There are 2 ways of being "suspicious". One means the way you might seem to others. The other means the way the situation around you might seem to YOU. Are they questioning you? Or are you questioning what's out there? But just think. We could waste a whole lot of time here arguing it back and forth. We could go on for days about it. Why don't I just instead say, "You're so right, Ron..." and we can save ourselves all that needless effort. ;-) |
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14 Aug 09 - 11:41 PM (#2700703) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Comeon LH, just busting your chops. You are right, as usual. As he says, he is a great song and dance man. |
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14 Aug 09 - 11:49 PM (#2700708) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: mg I have no idea why a younger policeman should have any idea what Bob Dylan looks like, or even if he is still alive. This has similarities obviously to the professor incident in Cambridge and it is good that we are all subject to being questioned, rather than just some, inconvenient though it may be. It is the price of public safety. mg |
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15 Aug 09 - 12:26 AM (#2700711) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Little Hawk Yeah, mg...but it can sometimes be pretty scary when it happens unexpectedly to you. I know. I've had it happen to me, and one is never expecting it. The important thing is not to lose your cool when it does. |
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15 Aug 09 - 12:33 AM (#2700713) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: open mike wonder if his i.d. says Dylan or Zimmerman? |
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15 Aug 09 - 12:39 AM (#2700714) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Barry Finn I am very suspect of having it be a justifiable reason to be hauled off to a policce station just because you don't have an ID in your possession. Suspicious or not. A simple asking of a few questions should surfice. I'm no wonder Dyan, LH, me & many others are suspicious of society & those that think this is an approprate response. "it is good that we are all subject to being questioned"???? Why is that good in a society where once apon a time one was innocent until proven guilty. Did 9/11 wash away everything? Barry |
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15 Aug 09 - 12:46 AM (#2700716) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: mg It is not good we are all questioned. It is good that if anyone is questioned, we all are, so as to avoid profiling, targeting certain groups etc. I as a 60ish female should take my turn, even though I am probably not as likely to commit certain crimes as an 18 year old male..I am also not as likely to be as heroic in pulling people out of burning cars etc... mg |
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15 Aug 09 - 01:04 AM (#2700718) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Kent Davis So, has President Obama invited Dylan and the officers to the White House for a beer yet? Kent |
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15 Aug 09 - 01:32 AM (#2700726) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Dead Horse I bet he was casing the joint with a view to stealing pump handles. |
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15 Aug 09 - 02:22 AM (#2700733) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: GUEST,Gerry The story is here: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2009/08/14/youre_bob_dylan_nj_police_want_to_see_some_id/?s_campa The police didn't take him to the police station, but to the resort where he was staying, and where people vouched for him. I'n a little surprised he was walking around without any ID. |
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15 Aug 09 - 03:12 AM (#2700744) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Little Hawk "To live outside the law you must be honest..." I always liked that line. |
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15 Aug 09 - 03:46 AM (#2700751) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Holy frigging Crap! You can get picked up in America, just for walking down the street? Can't get my head around that one. What kind of freaky control state stuff goes on over the pond? I guess I was naive about the Land of the Free. |
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15 Aug 09 - 03:53 AM (#2700752) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) I wasn't aware that it was law in US to carry ID everywhere, or be at risk of being hauled of too a police station if caught by police, whilst taking a walk. Must say I loathe the UK gov's ID scam myself. No-body here wants it. Most glad to see the UK gov's plans fall through. |
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15 Aug 09 - 03:54 AM (#2700755) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: kendall Come on people! Cops have to respond to complaints. If they don't they get grief. If they do they get grief. |
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15 Aug 09 - 03:58 AM (#2700757) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Is it suspicious to 'walk' in US. I seem to recall hearing that no-body does it. Maybe that's why they took the call seriously enough to bung him in the back of the van for further questioning, rather than just accept that he was simply taking a walk. |
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15 Aug 09 - 08:16 AM (#2700836) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Dead Horse Quite right Kendall, It was a concerned citizen doing his/her neighbourly duty. Was Dylan wearing a short sleeved shirt, I wonder? It is every Americans right to bare arms ;-) |
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15 Aug 09 - 09:06 AM (#2700853) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: GUEST,DonMeixner I read the news report. I am wondering with this is even worth comment. The cops were considerate. Dylan was considerate. The cops followed a procedure that in my experience has been considered acceptable police procedure all my life. ( Cops have always asked for I.D. unless the person in question was personally known to them). A six year old isn't breaking a law playing on the grass between the side walk and the highway. Every cop I know would take the kid home after asking his or her name. Dylan was not breaking a law but he was out of place and worthy of a question or two. At 68 he could be guy with Alzheimer's lost and looking for a home that might be his. Then he tells the truth to the cops who have no clue still who Bob Dylan is, "I'm on tour and just killing time." Here you have two young cops who are clueless as to who Bob Dylan is. Is that why we are even commenting? I wouldn't recognize him. And if some told me they were Bob Dylan I'd say "Sure your are." I'm pleased we have two young cops who acted correctly and didn't create yet aother Youtube event. Don |
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15 Aug 09 - 09:19 AM (#2700859) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) It's pure barmy that someone simply wandering down a street doing absolutely *nothing*, should be picked up, questioned, asked for ID (for what, to "walk"?), compelled into a police vehicle for having no ID, and then taken for further questioning (be it to the police station, or his hotel). I don't give a damn whether it was Dylan, or just 'some bloke' walking down the street. And as for "Alzheimers"?!! What nonsense. Sure if the guy was obviously *confused*, but he wasn't confused: he answered the questions the police asked him, fully and lucidly. He was walking, killing a bit of time, before going to his job. What's so 'suspicious' about that? Jeez I walk places all the time, no-one's ever questioned me for doing so. I've never been to America, I doubt I ever will. But this is an eye-opener as to what a police state it evidently is. And also quite an eye-opener as to how American posters evidently think about their imagined freedoms. |
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15 Aug 09 - 09:59 AM (#2700875) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: open mike i hope the young coppers were smart enough to ask for his autograph while they had the chance! hey this was good for publicity now everyone knows Bob is on tour maybe we all could "drum up" a little interest by similar attention getting stunts for our gigs! |
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15 Aug 09 - 10:00 AM (#2700876) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: McGrath of Harlow Do you need a licence to breathe now in the States? |
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15 Aug 09 - 10:43 AM (#2700892) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Jeri I see an AmEx commercial in his future. "Don't leave home without it!" This wouldn't have happened to Bruce Springsteen! |
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15 Aug 09 - 10:59 AM (#2700898) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Bobert If you think that song he wrote on "Time Out of Mind" to that waitress was wierd just think of the song that he's gonna write about this little situation... I can't wait... B~ |
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15 Aug 09 - 11:20 AM (#2700906) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: PoppaGator You Brits who can't wrap your heads around how this could have happened apparantly don't realize how unusual it is for a white guy to be observed walking around a "a low income housing area," i.e., a black neighborhood. Walking, in and of itself, is (as at least one of you intuited) somewhat unusual in a morotized nation with little or no relevant public transit. For a retirement-age white man to be walking alone in such a minority community could very easily be interpreted as evidence of dementia or worse (e.g., abduction followed by being rendered unconscious). Long Branch is a beachfront city that was a fashionable resort in the late 19th century. By the time I first became aware of it, in the mid-1950s, it had gone to seed ~ badlly ~ and was eclipsed by any number of other Jersey Shore destinations. I haven't been back for years and don't know exactly how things stand today, but I imagine that Long Branch is still a less than desireable place to be. Ron culd probaly elaborate. |
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15 Aug 09 - 11:31 AM (#2700913) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Suegorgeous Poppagator - very interesting - indeed, we probably wouldn't realize it - because in the UK, "low income housing area" would never automatically mean "black neighbourhood". Here there are just as many white or mixed low income housing areas as black ones. |
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15 Aug 09 - 12:13 PM (#2700933) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Ebbie Two thoughts here: 1) Many cities and towns have 'Neighborhood Watch' volunteers who commit to observing and monitoring persons from 'away'. Such neighborhoods commonly have placards posted in prominent places. 2) I understand that many celebrities - even political figures - don't carry money or much of anything at all in their pockets. That's the job of their staff and security. |
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15 Aug 09 - 12:20 PM (#2700939) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: kendall While riding through east London with my wife, some thug dropped a rock on our windshield from a bridge. Should I declare that I will never go to England again? |
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15 Aug 09 - 12:25 PM (#2700946) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Amos Every day is the same thing, out the door feel further away than ever before Some things in life it just gets too late to learn Well I'm lost somewhere, I must have made a few bad turns I see people in the park, forgettin' their troubles and woes They're drinkin' and dancin', wearin' bright colored clothes All the young men with the young women lookin' so good Well I'd trade places with any of 'em, in a minute if I could I'm crossin' the street to get away from a mangy dog talkin' to myself in a monologue I think what I need might be a full length leather coat Somebody just asked me if I'm registered to vote The sun is beginnin' to shine on me But it's not like the sun that used to be The party's over and there's less and less to say I got new eyes, everything looks far away Well my heart's in The Highlands at the break of day Over the hills and far away There's a way to get there, and I'll figure it out somehow Well I'm already there in my mind and that's good enough for now... I am glad they didn't bust him hard. A |
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15 Aug 09 - 12:27 PM (#2700948) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Azizi I'm sure that Poppagator is aware that there are many low income housing areas (also known as "housing developments, "housing projects" or "projects") which all the residents are White. I suppose that there are also some housing projects which are integrated. Also, "low income" is relative, and some people who live in those housing projects consider themselves to be middle class, though they may actually be the working poor. I was raised in an all Black housing project in Atlantic City, New Jersey called "The Village". At that time, these projects were more a more desirable place to live in for the working poor than some rental properties "uptown". These projects covered many city blocks and each resident had a porch (though some porches were shared with two families) and a small front and back yard. Even in the 1950s and 1960s when I lived there, some of these rental projects were considered by community members to be better than others. Measurements for what was better was how well people maintained their yards (including whether the people who lived in the houses planted flowers, and whether that area had people who were known to be "rowdy". For what it's worth, I can't remember the projects being known for being violent. The only fights I remember were kids occassionally fist fighting. Unfortunately, hearing guns being fired is not an uncommon sound in some housing developments- in Atlantic City, in my adopted city of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and elsewhere in the USA. Note that I said "some" and not all. As to neighborhood watches being alert to "observing and monitoring persons from 'away', the problem occurs when the definition of a suspicious person is one whose skin color is different than that of other people (or most other people) who live in that neighborhood. And though it's only speculation, in addition to transporting Bob Dylan to his hotel or wherever to verify his identity, it may be possible that the police officer may have felt that she or he was offering Bob Dylan some measure of protection by picking him up and transporting away the that "minority" public housing development. |
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15 Aug 09 - 12:27 PM (#2700949) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: GUEST,JTT Threw the bums a dime in your prime, didn't you? Seriously, though, it shows how terrifying this new Depression is. The cop was so shocked to see someone apparently considering buying a house that she immediately got suspicious. |
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15 Aug 09 - 12:30 PM (#2700952) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Uncle Phil Well, let's see here. Dylan takes a walk and stops to look at a house for sale. A lady sees a stranger peering through windows in her neighborhood in the middle of the night and calls the cops. The NJ cops respond just as promptly to the call in her poor neighborhood as the Mass cops did to the call in Professor Gates' rich neighborhood. Dylan and the cops are civil to one another. His story is that he is an international superstar on walkabout but doesn't have ID on him. This story might sound a wee bit hinky to the cops, but they take him back to the tour bus or hotel or whatever to get his ID. Turns out he is just who he says he is. Everyone says goodnight and goes about their business. Personally I think it's wildly funny that the young cops didn't recognize Dylan and made him cough up some ID, but otherwise it's not much of a story. - Phil |
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15 Aug 09 - 12:35 PM (#2700954) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Bee-dubya-ell The caller was probably a disgruntled fan from the mid-sixties, still pissed off 'cause Dylan plugged in. |
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15 Aug 09 - 12:52 PM (#2700963) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Azizi Dylan may not have been arrested for walking in a public housing community. Yet there are cases of people who have been arrested for walking in their communities. The DC 6 LAW Walking While Black Posted by: wordonthestreetsmag 5/27/2009 "As of right now if you live in what is classified as a drug zone you no longer have any rights and you are susceptible to police harassment which could possibly lead up to police brutality or worse. It is very imperative that African Americans in particular or people who live in neighborhoods that are classified as drug zones (DC 6) that you know the law and or ordinances... There are many countless reports of citizens in the Atlanta area that are being harassed by police and residents want to know why their areas are classified as DC 6 zones. What is the DC 6 you ask? Here is an excerpt of an article that was written in creative loafing back in 2007 DC-6 is the most frequent non-traffic offense cited by Atlanta police. As of Dec. 18, 7,551 DC-6 arrests — about 22 a day — were made in 2006, outpacing criminal trespass at 5,407 and drinking in public at 4,621. It is 2009 and those numbers have tripled. Some City Council members and city officials weren't even familiar with the ordinance until it came to their attention at public meetings organized in the wake of the Nov. 21 home-invasion killing by police of an 88-year-old woman. At the most recent Jan. 6 public meeting organized by state Sen. Vincent Fort, residents from Vine City, the West End and other neighborhoods demanded to know why they and their neighbors have been "DC-6'ed" so often... According to the DC-6 ordinance: "It shall be unlawful for any person [to] … be in or about any place where gaming or the illegal sale or possession of alcoholic beverages or narcotics or dangerous drugs is practiced, allowed or tolerated[.]" What that means, essentially, is that a person can be arrested simply for being in what police designate as a "known drug area" — even if he or she just walks down the street or chats with a neighbor. That's problematic, says American Civil Liberties Union Legal Director Gerry Weber, because the law is so ambiguous that it invites discriminatory enforcement and therefore may be unconstitutional. "It's one of those catch-all laws that police use when they can't think of any other charge," Weber says. "It's a street-clearing device." Weber says the ACLU is seeking the right case for a legal challenge. A police employee, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, says there's no official list within the city that would designate a location as a hot spot for illegal activity. Instead, the employee says, identifying known drug areas is "all up to the officer's discretion." There are signs that the topic has become a sensitive one for city officials. Atlanta Police refused to comment on DC-6. And another department employee, who also spoke on the condition of anonymity, says police Chief Richard Pennington scolded zone majors at a recent staff meeting for citing DC-6 too often. The scolding came after one of the meetings in which residents complained, and the same day that CL requested DC-6 records. It seems that this law is starting to spread all across US cities as their are continued reports of unnecessary police harrasments, shootings, killings in what is classified as drug zones. What are African Americans going to do to protect themselves against the police?" http://globalgrind.com/content/672910/The-DC-6-LAW-Walking-While-Black/ |
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15 Aug 09 - 12:53 PM (#2700965) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Howard Jones I don't usually carry ID, unless you count credit cards, but usually nothing with a photo or address. In the UK there's some uproar because the government wants to introduce ID cards. Many people are opposed to the very idea. Not being black or Muslim, I expect to be able to walk down the street, even in an ethnic enclave, without being pulled up by Old Bill. It is striking that those in the Land of the Free seem to find nothing remarkable in this incident, even approve of the police's actions, whereas those in the UK seem to take a completely opposite view. On the other hand, we have the highest proportion of CCTV cameras per head of anywhere in the world. |
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15 Aug 09 - 01:01 PM (#2700970) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Little Hawk LOL! Well, Dylan and the cops both had the sense to stay cool and not get upset. That might be a lesson for the rest of us, hmmm? But, Crow Sister, it actually is getting kind of unusual (in a sort of general sense) for people to just go for "a walk" in North America. It's not done nearly as much as it was done in my father's and mother's youth, that's for sure. With the universal advent of the TV and the automobile this has become a more and more sedentary society. So a person who is just out "going for a walk" to pass the time quite likely may seem suspicious to some observer who's peering out her window or some cop who's on patrol. Example: I like to go for walks at night sometimes. Why? Because it's quiet out there at night (I live in the country, outside a smallish town). It's peaceful. I like to look at the night sky. I enjoy the solitude. So, one night I took a walk down our laneway and over to the main road. Everything was still and lovely, a gentle breeze blowing. I decided to cross the road and take a stroll through the parking lot beside the storage units that are over there. Why there? No particular reason. Just felt like it. All of a sudden a cop car comes flying up the highway at high speed and whooshes into the parking lot. I realize it's because of me. ;-) He's probably expecting me to run for it at that point, but I just stand there calmly and wait for him to get out of the cruiser. He does so, watching me very closely, and begins asking me what I'm doing there. I tell him I'm out for a walk. I can see him saying to himself, "Yeah....right!" He doesn't think it at all likely that anyone would just be out for a walk at around midnight. So I get out my I.D. and show him that I live right across the street. He questions me at some length, calls up the station to check if I have a record, eventually decides that I must be out for a walk after all, strange as it is to him that I would be. Why am I not at home, glued to a TV or a computer screen??? He advises me that it's probably not a good idea to go for walks after dark, because people might think I was up to no good. I thank him for his "assistance" and I walk back home. I have since restricted my night walks to just our own property and the laneway right by my house. It's getting weird out there. ;-) When I think of the freedom people used to have and how different things used to be around here in this beautiful North American land, it makes me sad. The boundaries keep narrowing with every passing decade, even every passing year. |
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15 Aug 09 - 01:05 PM (#2700973) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) So, it's evening (do concerts in America start in "the middle if the night?") A woman see's a guy looking at a house up for sale. And she wonders why. She calls police about this suspicious behaviour, and they come and question him. Once he'd answered, they should have apologised and explained that no matter how trivial, they are required to respond to all calls. "Sorry for the inconvenience, Sir. We have to respond to all calls." they should say, "Have a nice evening." Did he state he was an "International Superstar" or did he simply give his name (which no-one recognised anyway), the latter I think. In my world, I call picking up a guy for the crime of walking down the street, and looking at a house up for sale, Police Harrasment. Of course we get petty crank calls to police to, but they usually consider them to be a nusiance, even though they are also required to respond. I didn't say I wouldn't go to the US just because because I appreciate the freedom to walk, unmolested by police. Please re-read my post. FYI I totally think it's brainwashed police state nutsness that anyone would find this kinda stuff perfectly OK. Having said that the UK is becoming increasingly careless with it's liberties too. So far, gladly though, there is still enough cynicism of politicians in the UK, for people to resist being totally brainwashed and compliant. I guess we live in different worlds. And thank feck for that. Sorry if I seem to be quite curve-balled by the typical American posters response to this incident, I thought the US prided itself on "Liberty". Liberty is something I believe in greatly. So I hate to the erosion of it, let alone complicity in that, from people themselves. I know we are in many way's oppressed in the UK too. Lot's of CCTV, which I loathe. And that Nazi institution called the NHS (please, that's just a joke, following another thread! ;-) ). But I'm a believer in Liberty, and the US supposedly prides itself in the same. I'm stunned to see so many US posters condone police harassement of a "stranger" taking an evening walk, and looking at a house up for sale. |
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15 Aug 09 - 01:12 PM (#2700980) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) LH, thanks for your post explaining that "walking" is increasingly unusual. I'm afraid Liberty is one of my personal hobbyhorses - hence my strong feelings here. Anyhoo, I'll back off the thread now. It's not really my place to argue over how another country prefers to do things. :-) |
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15 Aug 09 - 01:14 PM (#2700984) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Look who is doing the over-reacting. I can't believe the crap I'm reading on this thread. Bunch of ambulance chasers looking for any excuse to jerk your knees in response to anything that bares the slightest case of civil rights infrigment. If you read this story and grow indignant that someone is asked a question by those in authority, you are either walking through life with blinders or are part of some extreme cult. Look, there is no doubt about it - police can over-react and often operate with stereotypical response. Yet if someone was wandering the streets suffering from a medical condition, or if they were indeed were up to no good - you bastards would weep and moan that no one is doing their job of protecting people. No one was arrested, no one was hurt, and it was s simple misunderstanding that ended well. Don't blow it out of proportion!!! For fucks sake, everyone in this case appears to have been treated with dignity and respect and everyone worked in the spirit of cooperation. Take it for the laugh that it was - a couple of 20 something cops had no clue as to who they were speaking with - and there is no compelling reason that they should have known. I posted this story because I thought it was worth a chuckle, not a bunch of bull shit from fist pounding over-reactors. |
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15 Aug 09 - 01:14 PM (#2700985) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Charley Noble Well, Dylan is lucky he wasn't walking down the street in neighboring Red Bank. He probably would have spent the night in the slammer. There's been a rivalry between the two towns for years, commemorated in the song about the Long Branch branch of a bank in Red Bank as I recall. I used to take a stout 6-foot stick with me when I went walking the neighborhood in the evening, but that was in a rural village in Ethiopia and there were hungry hyaenas prowling about. In the States I seldom take more than a cellphone. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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15 Aug 09 - 01:18 PM (#2700986) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: gnu Oh come on. A stranger is walking around a neighbourhood and one of the residents becomes suspicious for WHATEVER reason and calls the police. The police arrive and ask the guy for some ID. No ID. Now, I am very much against any "police state", but walking around ANYWHERE without ANY ID is just stunned. I think the caller and the police are to be commended. I think Bob should carry his ID at all times, as do most peeps. As far as racist innuendos or Yankee bashing or anything else other than the simple fact that Bob happened to forget to carry ID, well, I needn't comment further. That would just be more ammo. |
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15 Aug 09 - 01:19 PM (#2700989) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Azizi For some reason my entire post didn't take, so I'll write that last portion again- Given the reality of race in the USA, I wonder if the results would have been the same if the lone person walking had been a Black man in a White neighboorhood-particularly in if the White neighborhood is middle class or upper middle class, and regardless of whether the Black man had ID or was civil to the police officer. Indeed, Black men have been killed for happening to wander into White middle class neighborhoods, and vice versa I'm sure. There was one case of two Black men who were killed in New York City some years ago when they walked through a White neighborhood because their car had broken down. I don't remember the names, but I recall that a group of men chased them to a highway, and I believe that is how at least one of the men died, though my recollection is that two men died. |
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15 Aug 09 - 01:20 PM (#2700991) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Hey LHawk, actually a mate of mine was once 'accosted' when out in the early hours of morning. He was sitting in his car in a beauty spot known for ocassional late night trouble with youths & drugs. The copper shone a torch in the car, and said: "Can you identify yourself please sir?" My mate looked in the wing mirror, and said: "Yes Officer. That's me alright." |
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15 Aug 09 - 01:23 PM (#2700994) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Uncle Phil Most Americans are accustomed to carrying around a driving license, which serves day-to-day as id for cashing a cheque, etc. Here is Texas you can also get an id from the department of public safety, for your convenience, if you don't have a driving license. No one is required to carry an id, but we are required to carry a driving license while driving. The alternatives to the police establishing a suspected prowler's identity and verifying their story are: 1. Believe whatever story the prowler tells them (which doesn't seem like a good idea since some prowlers really are criminals) or 2. take everyone down to the greybar hotel and let a judge sort it out later (which doesn't seem like a good idea since some suspected prowlers are really not criminals). - Phil |
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15 Aug 09 - 01:23 PM (#2700995) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Azizi And for those who think this is racist innuendos then try being Black in the USA. Oh that's right. You can't. |
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15 Aug 09 - 01:30 PM (#2700998) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Come on Gnu, this is not a "police state". |
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15 Aug 09 - 01:32 PM (#2701001) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Little Hawk Ron Olesko - "I posted this story because I thought it was worth a chuckle, not a bunch of bull shit from fist pounding over-reactors." LOL! Yeah, Ron, I can imagine just how you feel about that. It is a story worth a chuckle or two...but remember: this forum is like a large arena full of idle dogs just sort of sitting around with not much to do at the moment, and they're waiting for something to happen...something they can fix their attention upon. Maybe something to bite or bark about? You just threw a fresh bone into the arena when you launched this thread, and... ......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You see what happens. ;-) Each dog reacts in its own particular fashion, and some are a lot more hyper or combative than others. **** By the way, I fully understand why the cop that accosted me thought I might be up to no good. He no doubt figured I was planning a break-in at the storage place. But what I feel sad about is that I don't live in an environment where one can just go for a quiet walk at night and not arouse those sort of suspicions. I wish people were not so afraid of one another. |
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15 Aug 09 - 01:32 PM (#2701002) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: gnu Azizi... I am just so sick and tired of peeps turning a simple situation, discussion, debate... into an issue of race. Bob didn't have any ID... that is one of two things... forgetful or stunned... white or black or purple poka dot... race need not be brought into everything. I think if you go back and read carefully, you might change your tune. |
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15 Aug 09 - 01:37 PM (#2701007) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: gnu Ron??? WTF? I did not say that. I suggest you go back and read again as well. |
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15 Aug 09 - 01:38 PM (#2701008) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Little Hawk gnu - I'm sick of it too. I wish we could all wake up tomorrow and not even know anymore that there was such a concept as "race". Do rabbits fight with each other over what color the other rabbit is? Do they divide up into grey rabbits, brown rabbits, and white rabbits and fight about it? No. They don't. They'e all just rabbits, period. They're evidently not nearly as misguided as people in that respect. |
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15 Aug 09 - 01:39 PM (#2701009) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: GUEST,Peter Laban 'Now, I am very much against any "police state", but walking around ANYWHERE without ANY ID is just stunned' I beg your pardon??? I have never in my life made any effort (or had the need) to carry identification at all time and have never been asked to produce any (except when cashing cheques, crossing borders and that sort of obvious thing). Any place where police can whisk you off the street for the sole reason of NOT having ID on you would seem uncomfortable to me. |
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15 Aug 09 - 01:40 PM (#2701010) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Azizi gnu, White people in the USA and Canada and Britian have the luxury not to consider race as a factor. People of color don't have that luxury. Does race impact everything? No. But unfortunately, race is more of a factor than most people on Mudcat think. |
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15 Aug 09 - 01:44 PM (#2701017) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Little Hawk Yes, it is. But when will humanity in general just grow up and get over it? And how could we each assist in making that happen? By dealing with each person as a unique individual rather than as a "race" stereotype, I would think. |
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15 Aug 09 - 01:48 PM (#2701019) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: gnu Okay... a different appraoch. Say, you have an accident... no ID... that is just stunned. Got nothin to do with the police. Just bein stunned. Azizi... I think the world of you and your edifying posts and discussions, as you are well aware. However, do not purport to assume I do not know anything racisim. Making this a thread about racism disgusts me... plain and simple. If you call that being racist, well... as I said before... I shant say anymore. |
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15 Aug 09 - 02:04 PM (#2701028) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Ebbie lol I cannot believe this thread. 1) Shocked at being expected to carry ID? hahhahahah 2) Disbelieving that a person could be/would be/ should be accosted by police? 3) 5:00 PM is the "middle of the night"? 4) Your own country would not do such a thing? hahahhah 5) Can't let it go as being funny that young police officers didn't recognize Dylan? That, as mentioned above by a couple of posters, is the point, nothing else. |
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15 Aug 09 - 02:05 PM (#2701031) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Amos Liberty is an excellent First Principle. We "believe in it". as CS says upthread. Practice is a trickier equation. Interestingly, there is chain of connection between creating a business environment that generates major class divisions between wealth and poverty, and creating a loss of liberty. The intermediary link is public danger as a backlash from economic oppression. We delegate the management of danger in public places to people with guns and pay them to constantly expose themselves to the angry and deranged. There's little wonder the freedom to take a walk is perhaps more constrained than it once was. We have a more polarized population, a significantly greater population density, and a declining literacy level, with concomitant increases in violence. I suspect if you were the young police officer who got called, you would have handled it about the same way. A |
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15 Aug 09 - 02:19 PM (#2701041) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Jeri What Ebbie said. I'll bet none of them get beer from Obama, although it would have been a nice follow up if he'd invited them to the concert. |
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15 Aug 09 - 02:24 PM (#2701046) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Steve Shaw One blast of his pocket harmonica would have had the cops running a mile. |
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15 Aug 09 - 02:28 PM (#2701047) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: John MacKenzie His mother was a street walker in Venice, her favourite perfume wac Canal No 5. She did the breast stroke every day |
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15 Aug 09 - 02:32 PM (#2701050) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: gnu FIANALLY! A voice of reason and true wisdom. |
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15 Aug 09 - 02:32 PM (#2701051) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Azizi gnu, if you read this thread you will note that I was not the first person to bring the topic of race into this thread. Also, the linked newspaper article about this incident introduced the topic of race by reporting that "The incident began at 5 p.m. when a resident said a man was wandering around a low-income, predominantly minority neighborhood several blocks from the oceanfront looking at houses." After race was already introduced to this thread, I added my posts from my perspective as a Black woman. Doing so doesn't mean that I am a racist. And it doesn't mean that anyone who disagrees with what I wrote is a racist. Nor does it mean that anyone who dislikes my adding to the subject of race is a racist. And Little Hawk, as I'm sure you know, racism is not just about how a person of one race feels about or interacts with a person of another race. The larger issue is about institutional racism. I should also note that I don't write just for people who post comments in these threads, but also for people who may be lurking and reading these threads now and in the future. Some of those people may be interested in reading about topics that reference race from a person who is not White. And I also should note that if there were at least one other Black person or just one other Person of Color who publicly identified himself or herself as such who posted on Mudcat as a member or as a regular guest, I would not feel the need to post as many comments about race on Mudcat threads. I used to wonder why there were no other Black people or People of Color (who publicly acknowledges such) who were Mudcat members or regular guest posters on this forum. I don't wonder about that anymore. |
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15 Aug 09 - 02:37 PM (#2701055) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Gnu - my apologies, I did misread what you wrote. I sincerely apologize for twisting your words. My error. LH - you are absolutely right. I am still stunned at the reaction. I thought more of the people on here. Guess I was wrong there too! "My assumption is that the police officer in that case is White." Based upon a few lines in a wire story? That is sort of like making an assumption that Dylan did not belong in the neighborhood and he was up to something, or assuming that anyone can walk in Howard Beach without being questioned, or assuming that two people of the same sex can walk down a street without being hasseled, or that anyone with middle-eastern blood in them can fly an airplane and not be stared at. The reality is, we ALL make assumptions. How we move on and deal with it is how we are judged. There is no way I can imagine what is like to be a person of color. The best way I can address the issue is to live my life and consider how I treat others and how I address issues. |
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15 Aug 09 - 02:50 PM (#2701063) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Howard Jones Just to smooth any ruffled feathers, my own comment was not intended as a dig at the US, simply as an observation on how different our cultures are. This is sometimes overlooked due to our (mostly) common language. In the US, whilst it's not obligatory, it seems that most people are accustomed to carrying ID and are not surprised or offended to be asked for it. In the UK, people are generally not accustomed to carrying ID and don't expect to be asked for it. The governments proposals to introduce compulsory ID cards have met with considerable resistance. My driving licence is of the old style which doesn't include a photo. The idea that going for a walk in itself constitutes suspicious behaviour is also strange to us. However I can see how in context it might appear so. It's a good laugh that the cop didn't recognise Dylan, but then I'm not sure I would either. At least he appears not to have tried the usual celebrity "Do you realise who I am?" line. |
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15 Aug 09 - 02:55 PM (#2701071) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: gnu Ron... I knew that. Never a worry. Thanks buddy. Azizi... so, you read back and found out that I was correct? How nice of you to point that out. Makes me feel a whole lot better. Thanks. Yes, that is sarcastic... nasty? Not under the circumstances. Sorry if I am a tad testy, but my Satanic nerve is causing more pain than this thread. It hurts like the devil. |
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15 Aug 09 - 02:57 PM (#2701074) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: WFDU - Ron Olesko "The idea that going for a walk in itself constitutes suspicious behaviour is also strange to us. However I can see how in context it might appear so." Please do not get the image in your mind that we are all walking around with ID at the ready to produce upon request. I'm 52 years old, and the only time I've been asked for ID by a cop was when I speeding on a local street. For the most part, we all live in peace and issues like these become fodder for knee jerk reactions from people looking to pick a fight. Their issues are probably of greater import than this non-story. It is sad to see that our community here on Mudcat is so dysfunctional. |
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15 Aug 09 - 03:07 PM (#2701079) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: GUEST,GUEST, bobd- (no relation) A rhetorical question, not expecting an answer or argument: Afterwards, did he return to continue his stroll? Or had enough time been killed by now. Or he had seen enough. Or the mood had been broken and would have been impossible to regain. I guess it's a good thing his crew back at the hotel had their ID's. |
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15 Aug 09 - 03:09 PM (#2701083) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Uncle_DaveO Little Hawk told us, as part of an incident that happened to him: "He advises me that it's probably not a good idea to go for walks after dark, because people might think I was up to no good. My own feeling (whether or not I'd say so out loud to the officer) is what "people might think", or even what "people DO think" is not a crime, and that's their problem, not mine. Dave Oesterreich |
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15 Aug 09 - 03:10 PM (#2701084) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Azizi Given the fact that the overwhelming majority of police officers in the United States are White, I wrote that my assumption is that the police officer in that [Bob Dylan] case is White. Therefore my assumption is more likely to be right than wrong. Of course, a police officer's race or ethnicity (using the the United States definition of ethnicity meaning "Latino") should not matter. But sometimes it does. ** gnu, I'm not sure what you are referring to when you wrote that I now agree that you are correct. I'm sorry if you're not feeling well. I'm not sure what a "Satanic" nerve is. I could make a racial joke, but I'll refrain from doing so. |
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15 Aug 09 - 03:10 PM (#2701085) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: GUEST All because he hadn't shaved!!! |
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15 Aug 09 - 03:19 PM (#2701094) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: gnu No sense in bothering... once again... have fun with it... gnightgnu. Oh, don't leave home without it, eh? |
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15 Aug 09 - 03:21 PM (#2701097) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: WFDU - Ron Olesko "Therefore my assumption is more likely to be right than wrong." So in the end it is still just an assumption based on a stereotype. The officer was also a woman. |
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15 Aug 09 - 03:50 PM (#2701122) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Little Hawk "issues like these become fodder for knee jerk reactions from people looking to pick a fight" Exactly. And that is the crux of the problem with the ongoing racism debate in the USA media and that is what makes it so harmful and unproductive to the mental health and peace of the entire nation: There are too many people looking to pick a fight...and they're reacting to one another in a knee jerk fashion...and it just keeps getting worse as far as I can see. It will not stop until the rabbits (and the mass media) stop worrying what the heck color the other rabbits are. |
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15 Aug 09 - 04:38 PM (#2701154) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: GUEST I can't imagine leaving the house without my drivers license. |
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15 Aug 09 - 04:45 PM (#2701160) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Little Hawk I always take my I.D. with me too, but I can recall one or two occasions when I forgot to (in the past 10 or 15 years), and it normally happened because I had had my wallet out on the desk while I was going through some receipts and stuff, and then I went upstairs and got distracted by something else, and then I went out at some point, got in the car, and drove downtown...and discovered that I had neither my wallet nor my I.D. when I got there! It can happen to anyone. It can also happen easily enough when you're changing clothing and you forget that the wallet is in the other pair of pants...or the other jacket...or something like that. I also once put a wallet through an entire washer cycle because I forgot to check the jeans before they went in the washer. Pretty disgusting mess it was by the time I found it too....! But the money was very, very clean for a change. |
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15 Aug 09 - 04:56 PM (#2701175) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Amos I al;ways suspected you trafficked in dirty money, but now I find you launder it, also. Tsk, tsk.... |
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15 Aug 09 - 05:01 PM (#2701182) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Don Firth Hey, come on, Crow Sister. Walking is not a crime in the United States, nor, as I understand it, did Dylan get arrested. Kee-rist, people! I see a lot of reflexive twitching on this thread, but damned little use of brain cells! If a person is walking down a street at a regular walking pace as if he or she were going somewhere, no one (including the police) would pay any attention. But if someone is moseying slowly through a neighborhood (rich or low income, either one), pausing and looking at houses—particularly if looking into house windows—this raises the question of who the person is and what they might be up to. That is just plain suspicious behavior. It may be perfectly innocent, but it still looks suspicious. Add to this that someone saw Dylan, and on the basis of what appeared to be his suspicious behavior, called the police. The police didn't just pounce on him. The police ask the usual reasonable questions ("Who are you and what are you doing?") and Dylan can't identify himself. It sounds as if the whole exchange was polite. They didn't manhandle him, or whop him about the head and shoulders with their night-sticks, or take him down to the station and water-board him, they drove him back to his hotel, where he was identified. No harm done. The amusing part is that the two young cops didn't recognize Bob Dylan, nor presumably, had even heard of him. Object lesson to Dylan: Not everybody recognizes you or worships at your feet. Keep some ID with you, like regular people who don't normally on water. Much ado about nothing. Glad to hear the police were doing their job. That's what the taxpayers pay them to do. As to ID, I think the only times I've been asked for my ID is when I'm cashing a check. Don Firth |
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15 Aug 09 - 05:06 PM (#2701186) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Don Firth ". . . like regular people who don't normally walk on water." Don Firth |
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15 Aug 09 - 05:13 PM (#2701192) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Ebbie Azizi, I do understand - and I agree with you. You, as usual, are quite clear. The only thing I would take exception to is your repeated desire to have another self-identified 'person of color' on the Mudcat. It doesn't seem likely to me that many Black people swim in these waters, if only because 'folk' music has not traditionally been the genre of choice of most Black people. (Come to think of it - #1. how did you find this site? #2: How about you spreading the word about the Cat?)) I realize that the Cat advertises itself as being a 'folk and blues' site but the blues don't/doesn't(?) seem nearly as prominent in practice. Hmmmm. Reading that over it comes across as being snippy. I hope not. I value you- and besides, like me, you are a Saggie! |
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15 Aug 09 - 05:44 PM (#2701216) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) I'm sure you'll all be pleased that I'm not going to comment any further on my personal opinion - which is I suspect, as H Jones say's, principally down to something of a minor clash of cultural assumptions. But I thought this article interesting, due specifically to the comment at the end. It appears the neighbourhood is a predominately Latino area, and a white guy who doesn't "fit in" was the major issue. Cut and paste comment: "Rawls says: August 15, 2009 at 2:38 pm The police always do this — "stop" a white guy in a "high crime area" or whatever the convenient pretext might be. If a white guy is out of place, they assume he's there to buy drugs." I do not know if this is a correct statement, but I found it interesting in light of Azizi's prior comments. Look Out Kid, It's Something You Did: Bob Dylan Stopped By Police, Asked For I.D |
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15 Aug 09 - 06:24 PM (#2701240) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: McGrath of Harlow Unless the term is defined in an extremely restricted sense, it's almost certainly the case that most of the people round the world who play and listen to "folk music" are "people of colour". It's a big world, and a lot wider than just North America, Western Europe, and Australia. |
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15 Aug 09 - 06:32 PM (#2701243) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: GUEST,InOBU Lorcan Otway Was a time, when we believed we had the right to be left alone in America, and for a white man, that was often the case, never was for a Black American, the permanent suspect class in the US. Question we should ask is, what if it wasn't Dylan? I hope that is the question Bob is asking himself tonight. It is the poor damned soul with no job, with no ID, with little hope, who SHOULD have the RIGHT to just be ... and yes, we do live in a police state. Do read the NY Times piece last week on the criminalisation of poverty in the US. We have a prison population of 2.3 million here. We have 2.3 million in public housing, if you are some poor sod with no place to go, you've got a 50 50 chance of getting a window with glass or a window with bars. Bob, ask your self, WWWD - what would Woody do... This land is your land? Not any more. |
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15 Aug 09 - 06:50 PM (#2701254) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Greg F. And that is the crux of the problem with the ongoing racism debate in the USA...There are too many people looking to pick a fight. Sigh. That's not the crux of the problem at all. The crux of the problem is that so many people are in denial about the existence and persistence of racism in the U.S.- both the in-your-face redneck variety, and the more subtle institutionalized, inherited variety- and its consequences. Suggested reading: 1. Barbara J. Fields; Slavery, Race and Ideology in the United States of America1990 2. George Lipsitz: The Possessive Investment in Whiteness; How White People Benefit From Identity Politics 2006 |
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15 Aug 09 - 07:28 PM (#2701271) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Art Thieme Amazing! I've never seen a coin with this many sides to it. And all, on some level, are accurate and valid ways of seeing our surroundings. I carry a state of Illinois I.D. card because I can't drive any more. I carry a HUD identification card because my Housing and Urban Development management authority says I need to. I also carry an I.D. card that is addressed TO ALL LAW ENFOCEMENT OFFICERS. It informs them that I am not drunk but have MS--and that's why I walk that way (if indeed I am able to stand up at all.) There was a time when I'd've been indignant as all hell about the IDs. Now, though, I just don't have the strength to make waves. And guess what? It is O.K. -- and I'm glad I have a place to live that's handicapped accessible. ---- If I ever see Bob outside walking around---or Taj Mahal---or any of my musical heroes who are people of color --- I will yell out the window and tell 'em to come up for a diet Coke because the booze is gone from my life too now. We would talk about our music since I can't play it any more. I might ask Bob to play "The Times They Are A-Changing"--because they surelly are doing that--and as we watch. Life is a gas---sometimes pure oxygen and sometimes a fart---but I will continue to breathe deeply of whatever wafts my way. And I'll do that until I can't. Love, Art |
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15 Aug 09 - 07:54 PM (#2701287) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Joe_F When I was an undergraduate at Caltech (Pasadena, CA, mid 1950s), there was a mathematician there who walked the streets at night while ruminating on his problems. Sometimes his random walks took him to the neighboring town of San Marino, a posh municipality in which a pedestrian in the wee hours of the morning naturally excited suspicion, and he was continually harassed by the police. At length, the chief of police gave him a letter to show that said, in suitably dignified language: The bearer is a harmless nut from Caltech; no need to bother him. A little later I heard about a student (at Reed College, Portland, OR, IIRC) who was picked up by the police for leaning against a lamppost at night, reading a book. The next night, hundreds of lampposts in the vicinity of the campus were similarly occupied. As police states go, one could do worse than mine. |
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15 Aug 09 - 08:00 PM (#2701291) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: GUEST,Gerry They asked me my name And I said, "Captain Kidd" They believed me but They wanted to know What exactly that I did I said for the Pope of Eruke I was employed They let me go right away They were very paranoid |
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15 Aug 09 - 08:02 PM (#2701293) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Little Hawk What you say is absolutely true, Greg F., but it's just not the particular aspect I was focusing on, that's all. I was focusing on the provocative role the media plays, and they are constantly looking for "racism" issues to get people all worked up about whether or not it is relevant to the circumstannces in question. And many individuals are also doing that, because they have a grudge of some sort about it. They're "playing the race card", as the expression goes, because it's a very good way of manipulating other people and really getting lots of media attention. That's the problem I was alluding to...playing the race card in an exaggerated and provocative fashion...and there's been an epidemic of that in the last few decades. But as you say: "the problem is that so many people are in denial about the existence and persistence of racism in the U.S.- both the in-your-face redneck variety, and the more subtle institutionalized, inherited variety- and its consequences." Yes. That is another problem, and a very big one, but it's not the problem I was alluding to in my post. It's a different problem. They are both very big problems at present. ***** Now as to Bob Dylan...is it really surprising that someone found his appearance "suspicious"? No. ;-) He often looks sort of like he was "dragged through a hedge backwards", to quote an amusing expression I heard somewhere in regards to Dylan, and people usually figure that someone who looks like that looks a bit suspicious, specially if he's sort of loitering around staring at houses. On the other hand, Dylan paints. He likes painting old buildings. So he probably sometimes loiters around staring at them since it could give him ideas for his next painting. Besides, why not stare at buildings if you find them interesting? Most people are so driven with whatever they're on their way "to do" all the time that they have precious little inclination or thought to take time to look at anything around them unless it's quite unusual in some way. Creative artists are more inclined to observe things without having any specific overt reason to do so. These are some of the risks of being a creative human being in a largely unconscious society....you seem like an oddball to many people, but you're just doing what's normal for you. ;-D That's why that cop couldn't figure why I'd gone out for a liesurely walk to no particular objective at midnight. It just did not compute in his little mental book of "normality", because it didn't involve "doing" anything, it didn't lead anywhere, and it wasn't a popular form of recreation he could relate to. If I'd been deer hunting, with all the right equipment...THAT he would have understood. I would then have been "doing something". If people can't figure out what it is that you're "doing", then they get suspicious. Taoism involves mastering "non-doing" as a way of attaining inner peace and awareness. I'd talk about it here at length if I thought it would do any good....but... Heh! Well, maybe another time... |
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15 Aug 09 - 08:27 PM (#2701307) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Don Firth I can see why people in general, and the police in particular (who have a job that we, the citizens, have hired them to do), might think it prudent to investigate someone wandering aimlessly (as opposed to walking purposefully, as if to or from a bus stop, say) around residential neighborhood at night and stop the person to ask a few pertinent questions. I don't think that's indicative of a "police state," and I think it verges on paranoia to make that kind of assumption. If, on the other hand, the police come in the middle of the night, yank you out of bed, and haul you off for interrogation for some critical remark about the government that you made to a co-worker at the office that afternoon, or for a critical letter to the editor that you have written, then I'd say that's indicative of a police state Let's try to keep a sense of proportion here. Don Firth |
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15 Aug 09 - 09:20 PM (#2701328) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Greg F. The Media, LH? You don't want to listen to that crap- it'll grow hair on your palms. * Turn off your TV baby that ain't the truth You've got to open your eyes In these hard times -Patrick Fitzsimmons |
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15 Aug 09 - 09:49 PM (#2701337) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Little Hawk That's true, Greg. ;-D And that's why I gave up watching TV around the late 80s. The media I am exposed to is pretty much limited to 2 newspapers (the Toronto Star and the Globe and Mail) and whatever I can find cruising around on the Internet. I live a life without TV and radio and I don't miss them at all. |
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15 Aug 09 - 09:55 PM (#2701343) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Gibb Sahib Cops have stopped me and asked for ID MANY times in my life. One time I was just about a couple hundred feet from my house, walking home. They asked for ID and I refused to give it to them, because I was fed up with it. I offered they come to my house (kind of like they came to Dylan's hotel) where the people would vouch. I also narrated all my personal info -- I just refused to GIVE my ID. For that, they put me in the car and took me to the station. The incident continued to get more and more ridiculous. In the police car, I heard them say on the radio that they had apprehended an "Hispanic male" (I'm not Hispanic; I am classified as "White"). The female officer alleged that I had blown her off due to her gender. Then they said that someone had "stolen a pizza" and that I was in the area where it supposedly happened. Never mind that I was walking with all sorts of musical instruments in my hands (I had come from a rehearsal). My point is that they'll stop anybody if they think that person looks out of place. Walking can DEFINITELY make someone look out of place, in certain places. Being alone is another. Mostly, if you look like you really don't give a crap about shopping or who's on the other end of a phone and such... that is, if you don't appear as a bourgeois consumption machine and yet you're not at home watching TV.....you're a suspect, people get anxious. Here's a trick I learned from experience: If you walk by a cop and he/she asks "How you doin'?", it usually means that s/he is thinking you look kinda suspicious. They are testing to see what sort of response they get from you. In order to allay their fears, look them in the eye and repond cheerily, with a smile, "Great!" |
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15 Aug 09 - 09:56 PM (#2701344) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: WFDU - Ron Olesko "Bob, ask your self, WWWD - what would Woody do..." Of course this did happen to Woody, in fact there was one time when he was picked up - also in New Jersey - and it led to his "hospital" stay as he battled Huntington's. "If people can't figure out what it is that you're "doing", then they get suspicious." Naturally, and thankfully we are curious creatures. We are from a generation that was taught to question authority, but when we question each other we are suddenly infringing on freedom. It is amazing that our society has come to the point where simple questions lead to such allegations. Luckily, Dylan seems to be smarter than most posters here on Mudcat and appears to have understood and chalked it up to experience. |
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15 Aug 09 - 10:36 PM (#2701352) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Peace The cops asked him who he was. He answered. They didn't know. They asked for ID that he wasn't carrying. They then went in search of the folks he was with who could vouch for him. They did. The idea of Neighbourhood Watch is not new. Was a boon to many communities when it came in. Still goes on where I live. We are expected as members of society to contribute to its good, its safety. That is what the neighbour did. Just some guy looking around WHO WAS ALSO A STRANGER TO THE NEIGHBOURHOOD. From 2002, "The U.S. Department of Justice reports 797,500 children (younger than 18) were reported missing in a one-year period of time studied resulting in an average of 2,185 children being reported missing each day. 203,900 children were the victims of family abductions. 58,200 children were the victims of non-family abductions. 115 children were the victims of "stereotypical" kidnapping. (These crimes involve someone the child does not know or someone of slight acquaintance, who holds the child overnight, transports the child 50 miles or more, kills the child, demands ransom, or intends to keep the child permanently.)" We live in a dangerous world, folks. So does Dylan, and so do the people in that neighbourhood. No offence to anyone. There are lots of things that could be made of it all, but Halibut Fritters ain't one of 'em. |
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15 Aug 09 - 10:37 PM (#2701355) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Well said Peace! |
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15 Aug 09 - 10:41 PM (#2701357) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Little Hawk You nailed it perfectly, Gibb. "they'll stop anybody if they think that person looks out of place. Walking can DEFINITELY make someone look out of place, in certain places. Being alone is another. Mostly, if you look like you really don't give a crap about shopping or who's on the other end of a phone and such... that is, if you don't appear as a bourgeois consumption machine and yet you're not at home watching TV.....you're a suspect, people get anxious." Couldn't have said it better myself, buddy. Having been a musician, a rather solitary person, and a thoroughly peaceful and harmless nonconformist to what's generally going on in the mainstream of society all my life, I have a keen awareness of the attitude you allude to on the part of suspicious cops. Boy, can it ever be annoying. But they have the power right there in their hand and you don't, so the smart thing to do is exactly what Dylan did. Answer their questions and remain calm, cooperative, and non-threatening at all times. Your method for dealing with the "How you doin'?" question is perfect. After all, cops need reassurance too. ;-D They have a really stressful job. That's probably the main reason why some of them act like real bastards on certain occasions. Whenever I need my faith in cops restored a bit, I watch that old Sydney Poiter movie "In the Heat of the Night". It shows both sides of the coin in an extremely effective way. |
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15 Aug 09 - 10:49 PM (#2701362) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Little Hawk I wasn't implying, by the way, that the specific police who accosted Mr Dylan were behaving badly in any way. I was just talking generally about situations that can arise when cops are questioning people. It sounds like both they and he behaved quite sensibly. |
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15 Aug 09 - 10:54 PM (#2701370) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Luckily this had a happy ending |
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15 Aug 09 - 10:55 PM (#2701372) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: WFDU - Ron Olesko ...although it has heated things up around here |
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15 Aug 09 - 10:58 PM (#2701375) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Peace LOL |
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15 Aug 09 - 11:31 PM (#2701391) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker twice in the last 10 years the local bobbies have turned up mob handed in vans in full battle dress defence gear and banged on my front door demanding entrance and house search.. once i was asleep on the sofa in only my underpants; another time i was stuck with my finger in a radiator valve that had suddenly exploded spraying hot rusty water all over my computer room.. each time, i was at very least too shocked and in no position to argue as i agreed to let them search in every room under beds , and in wardrobes.. and answer all questions to establish my identity and rightful occupation of the house I own.. so,... after they found no hidden bodies or any kind of crime scene and refused to admit they got the wrong address.. they just effed off with no explanation or apology leaving me surprised, confused, embarrassed, and very impotently angry.. no end of phone calls to the local station provided any kind of satisfaction or 'closure' or eff all compensation for any personal distress suffered or imagined.. however.. last xmas after the pubs had closed and i was staggering home mind bended cider drunk along a short cut from my favourite pub and by pure chance i fell flat on my face at the feet of 2 young local coppers.. I fully expected to be arrested for drunk inability to control my legs, balance & ability to communicate in any human language, ..next morning i woke up sprawled on my own bed with the usual scrapes and bruises and only the vaguest memory of having been helped back up on my feet asked if i was hurt and ok, then being sent off in the right direction home by a couple of very nice friendly new police fellas.. |
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15 Aug 09 - 11:32 PM (#2701392) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: mg I would not consider it necessary to carry ID for police reasons, but for accident reasons it would be a good idea. Probably good idea if you are not in your home town. And very sadly often, people come to low-income, and I think this was mentioned as a high crime neighborhood, for the specific purpose of buying drugs. If you live in that neighborhood you have a right to report suspicious behavior, which depending on your paranoia could be almost anyone, or depending on your actual experience with neighborhoods deteriorating overnight, could still be a whole lot of people you don't recognize. mg |
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16 Aug 09 - 12:11 AM (#2701405) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Tyke About two years ago I was looking at an up to date photo of Bob Dylan and I was shocked to see how much he had aged. It was more than the usual surprise that we get when we see an old Film Star in their newest film. Bob Dylan did not look anything like the images of him. Still it's seems a bit of a no win situation go out looking like Bob Dylan and risk being kidnapped or shot or you can go out in disguise and just risk being shot. As for ID why didn't he just show the police his OAP bus pass like we do over here! |
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16 Aug 09 - 01:36 AM (#2701425) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Uncle Phil Just for the record the police responding to calls in poor neighborhoods and checking ID doesn't make New Jersey a police state. To qualify as a police state they'd have to do stuff like dismissing elected officials, suspending the government assembly or suspending trial by jury. - Phil Britain imposes direct rule of Turks and Caicos isles |
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16 Aug 09 - 08:43 AM (#2701512) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Jeri The flip side of this is that if you called the cops because some scruffy (I know this sounds like neighbors most of us have) stranger eye-balling houses, this is exactly what you'd want them to do. And I'm sorry, but at some point it all gets real and I have no problem handing over my ID. Cops look, say 'Have a nice day' and walk on. You can go to the station house with them so they can find out the same information they would have if you'd just handed them the ID, but it just seems like a waste to me. In the Air Force, I once tried to enter a high security area with somebody else's ID. (long story, amounts to 'Oops.') The cops had me up against the chain link wall, and I soon had police cars driving up an unloading. Cops with guns pointed at me, cops with dogs pointed at me. I was polite and did everything they asked until my boss sorted things out. When I was leaving, I told one of the cops how stupid I felt. He told me that not to long before, they'd had a full-bird colonel flat on the blacktop for a lot longer than I was in the fence-holding position because he mouthed off. These guys are doing a job. If you make it easy for them, it goes better for you. Make it harder, and things go pear-shaped real fast. If the police have done something wrong, get out of the situation first and THEN take care of it. Don't escalate unless you want them to meet your attitude and raise you a pair of handcuffs or worse, If they're looking for an excuse to beat the crap out of you, don't give it to them. If they're just doing their crime-fighting thing, let that be all it's about. On a lighter note, Obama Invites Dylan, Cop to Bong Summit |
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16 Aug 09 - 09:13 AM (#2701524) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: GUEST,Giovanni Azizi - every post you ever write on any thread about any topic seems to introduce the topic of skin colour. I think you are obsessed by skin colour - and I truly believe that people obsessed by skin colour are more responsible than most for perpetuating racism. |
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16 Aug 09 - 09:55 AM (#2701545) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Greg F. Giovanni: Azizi - every post you ever write on any thread about any topic seems to introduce the topic of skin colour. 1. In the first place, that's patently untrue, which would be obvious to anyone who had actually READ her postings. I think you are obsessed by skin colour... 2.Think what you like, but some supporting evidence would be appropriate before you make assinine statements of this sort. 3. By your spelling of the word "colour" I take it you weren't brought up in the U.S.- so precisely what do you know about the history and present situation of racism in the United States? Or are you just trying to be a pain in the ass? - and I truly believe that people obsessed by skin colour are more responsible than most for perpetuating racism. |
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16 Aug 09 - 10:55 AM (#2701569) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Ron Davies Why do some people around here always have their dial set on "outrage"? And why does everything have to be always black and white--(no pun intended--perish the thought? ) Prof. Gates should not have been arrested,--there is absolutely no excuse for his arrest-- but his own conduct was not perfect. And the police were responding to a neighborhood complaint. Same thing here, in many ways. Again the police were responding to a neighborhood complaint, it appears. Perhaps Mudcatters would prefer to have the police ignore calls from neighbors about suspicious conduct. In that case, the question arises as to what these Mudcatters think the police role in society should be. Or maybe they think society has achieved such perfection that the police are no longer needed. No, ID is not required all over the US to go walking--but if somebody calls in a complaint about your behavior, you'd best have it on you. And if Dylan had embarked on an anti-police rant, he might have been arrested. And the police would have again have been wrong, as they were in the Gates case. Unless he advocated burning down the the police station or something similar and people gathered around to hear his wisdom. In which case he should be arrested. But he didn't. So the police didn't. Maybe we can all learn something from this--which we should know already. And it's not that blacks are treated differently from whites. It's that sensible conduct is better than stupid conduct. Surprise, surprise. |
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16 Aug 09 - 11:12 AM (#2701571) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Ron Davies In fact, if the neighborhood Dylan was walking in was a poor black neighborhood and a poor black person called in the complaint against Dylan, what this incident proves, among other things, is that the police may, in this case at least, take seriously the complaints of poor blacks against whites accused of behaving suspiciously in their neighborhood. A lesson which seems to be not exactly the knee-jerk reaction of some brilliant posters on Mudcat. Who really should simmer down a bit and start reading and thinking. |
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16 Aug 09 - 11:24 AM (#2701579) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Jack Blandiver I've always enjoyed a spiffing relationship with the boys in blue even in my more wayward phases. We all wear uniforms and it pays to look beyond them. I might venture that the most worryingly conservative people I've ever met have been those occupying the New Age / hippy fringes of society where the notions of peace, love & freedom serve to masks a far darker conformity than any I've encountered in so-called straight society. On this, as in most things, I keep an open mind, though the amount of New Age Hippy Pagan's I've met who regard The Wicker Man as a pamphlet for their faith is something I find rather disturbing. CS mentioned ID cards a while back. I'm quite in favour of these actually as I have neither a driving license nor passport and would welcome some form of personal ID given the amounts of hoops I have to jump through to prove I am who I say I am. Seems my membership card for Blackpool Zoo just ain't enough! |
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16 Aug 09 - 12:38 PM (#2701626) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Greg F. And if, in fact, wishes were horses, beggars would ride, Ron. Wishful thinking won't get us much farther along. |
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16 Aug 09 - 12:41 PM (#2701628) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Which Ron are you directing that at Greg? If we never wished, we would never have reason to move forward. |
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16 Aug 09 - 12:55 PM (#2701642) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Stringsinger "How does it feel......?" |
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16 Aug 09 - 01:20 PM (#2701659) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: GUEST,astro People don't walk in the US? Of course, people walk all over and all of the time here...I walk a lot in Los Angeles, I call them urban hikes and I never have problem other then the occasional crazies that inhabit high density population centers. I certainly don't like some of the things that came out of the 9/11 events, but the ability to move unmolested by police is easy here. If many people walk here in LA, with its reputation of always driving, then people are out and about everywhere. I don't know what happened here with Bob, it could be a problem with events out of 9/11, or simply the police concerned for his safety since he is a famous performer. Seldom do these stories provide a full description of what took place, other then titillating details to provide a "good" story. To get too overblown about it helps no one, certainly if this is somehow linked to racial relations when no facts are there to support that. I think it is time to pull together as peoples of all stripes and colors...what a beautiful tapestry it is! For those of you overseas, life here in the US is large and complicated. If you chose to color things according to your own prejudices then you miss out on the wonderful and, yes, sometimes terrible things that are found in all societies including ours. Astro here in Los Angeles |
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16 Aug 09 - 03:41 PM (#2701763) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Don Firth Where the idea came from that people in the United States never walk anywhere, I sure don't know. It's patently absurd. I live in a residential area, and there are people walking past my front windows all the time. Walking the dog, jogging, walking to a nearby bus stop or to one of two business districts (grocery stores, pharmacies, five book stores, restaurants, etc.) within about four or five blocks (not worth cranking up the car—if they even have one—to go buy a quart of milk or a loaf of bread), or just out for a stroll. And in either of the business districts, there are people walking everywhere. There are half a dozen churches within a ten block radius of where I live and lots of people walk to church on Sunday mornings. About twelve blocks away, Seattle Central Community College, and not far from there, Seattle University. Students walking everywhere Lots of foot traffic. The oft repeated statement that people in the U. S. always jump into their cars to go to a store three blocks away is a crock. It bears damned little relationship to the reality that I can see out of my front window. Now, if someone is standing out in front of my apartment building and looking, I don't pay much attention to that. It's a 100 year old building, well maintained, and it has a brass plaque in front designating it as a historical building. Architecturally quite interesting. Not all that unusual for people walking by to stop and look. But—if they're lurking about and trying to peer through windows, I might well be tempted to pick up the phone. The East Precinct of the Seattle Police Department is nine blocks from here. They could have a squad car here in a couple of minutes. So, what's the big deal about Dylan? And this hysteria about Dylan being stopped and asked a few questions? After all, he was behaving in a manner that many people would regard as suspicious. And the whole exchange between Dylan and the police was polite. This makes this country—or New Jersey—a "police state?" What if the exact same thing happened in London? Or Belfast? Or Truro? Or Toronto? Or Vancouver? Or Winnepeg? Or Skandia, Kansas? Do people just enjoy having themselves a tizzy? Don Firth |
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16 Aug 09 - 05:15 PM (#2701826) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Ron Davies Bingo, Don. As I said earlier, some people have their dials stuck on "outrage". And that's the way they like it. Outrage is a lot more fun for some people than sense and logic. |
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16 Aug 09 - 07:25 PM (#2701886) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Little Hawk "Do people just enjoy having themselves a tizzy?" Yes, a great many people do! You betcha! It strengthens their fragile sense of identity. Why do you think people go to wrestling matches? To have a tizzy over something that doesn't matter at all, that's why. Okay, they are probably on a somewhet lower level of intellectuality than the average person who comes here to enjoy having a tizzy, but that doesn't mean they are any less caught up in their own particular form of searching out emotional negativity for its own satisfaction. As to the commonness of people walking in the USA these days...I never said that nobody walks anymore for pleasure in the USA...what I meant was simply that a lot fewer people (per capita) do it now than when my parents were young and that people walk less now than when my parents were young or when I was young, and that's a fact. It is a fact that I have observed as I have watched the North American population get fatter, lazier, and far more sedentary (on average) than they once were. Dispute it vigorously if you wish to have a tizzy over what I've just said. ;-) Express your outrage. Go crazy. Get upset with me. Make sarcastic remarks at my expense and ask me wild rhetorical questions that are based on a complete misapprehension of my original point. Say "I make it a point never to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent." (That's a Mudcat cliche that will instantly establish your intellectual superiority and leave me weeping and bleeding in the corner...) Stretch my original point to some ridiculous extreme so as to imply that I am a drooling moron. Draw attention to my many vile character flaws you have noticed and tell me that you pity me (that always strikes a telling blow!). Tell me I've got rocks in my head. Make obscene gestures in my general direction (if you know what it is) and grind your teeth at me. Get REALLY incensed! Kick your chair over and roll around foaming at the mouth, and bite the carpet! It's such a catharsis, after all...and I can take it with equanimity...so just knock yourself out on my account, okay? |
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16 Aug 09 - 08:07 PM (#2701913) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: WFDU - Ron Olesko So the answer to Don's question is yes. |
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16 Aug 09 - 08:25 PM (#2701926) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Little Hawk Make that a big AFFIRMATIVE, good buddy. Ten-Four! ;-) |
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16 Aug 09 - 08:54 PM (#2701937) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Jeri It's funny. Except for one person, it seems that the most severe reactions anyone is having are about the reactions other people are having, which they aren't, except for one person, and the one person has an issue with cultural differences. You guys are trying too hard to escalate this. |
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16 Aug 09 - 09:08 PM (#2701942) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: frogprince So now we find out that Don Firth lives in"a 100 year old building, well maintained, and it has a brass plaque in front designating it as a historical building. Architecturally quite interesting." Damn liberal elitist... |
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16 Aug 09 - 09:29 PM (#2701950) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: GUEST,Peace I think Mr Dylan has spoken for himself. Stuck Inside of Mobile with the Memphis Blues Again Words and music Bob Dylan Released on Blonde on Blonde (1966) and Greatest Hits II (1971), in a different studio version on No direction home (2005), and in a live version on Hard Rain (1976) Tabbed by Eyolf Østrem |: C Csus4 C Csus4 :| C Am Oh, the ragman draws circles C Am Up and down the block. C Am I'd ask him what the matter was F G But I know that he don't talk. F C And the ladies treat me kindly Am C And furnish me with tape, Am C But deep inside my heart F C I know I can't escape. Em Oh, Mama, can this really be the end, C G F To be stuck inside of Mobile C G11 C With the Memphis blues again. : . . . ; . . . |--------------------------------- |-1------------------------------- |-------3-----0-----3-----1------- |-----------------------------3--- |--------------------------------- |--------------------------------- Well, Shakespeare, he's in the alley With his pointed shoes and his bells, Speaking to some French girl, Who says she knows me well. And I would send a message To find out if she's talked, But the post office has been stolen And the mailbox is locked. Oh, Mama, can this really be the end, To be stuck inside of Mobile With the Memphis blues again. Mona tried to tell me To stay away from the train line. She said that all the railroad men Just drink up your blood like wine. An' I said, "Oh, I didn't know that, But then again, there's only one I've met An' he just smoked my eyelids An' punched my cigarette." Oh, Mama, can this really be the end, To be stuck inside of Mobile With the Memphis blues again. Grandpa died last week And now he's buried in the rocks, But everybody still talks about How badly they were shocked. But me, I expected it to happen, I knew he'd lost control When he built a fire on Main Street And shot it full of holes. Oh, Mama, can this really be the end, To be stuck inside of Mobile With the Memphis blues again. Now the senator came down here Showing ev'ryone his gun, Handing out free tickets To the wedding of his son. An' me, I nearly got busted An' wouldn't it be my luck To get caught without a ticket And be discovered beneath a truck. Oh, Mama, can this really be the end, To be stuck inside of Mobile With the Memphis blues again. Now the preacher looked so baffled When I asked him why he dressed With twenty pounds of headlines Stapled to his chest. But he cursed me when I proved it to him, Then I whispered, "Not even you can hide. You see, you're just like me, I hope you're satisfied." Oh, Mama, can this really be the end, To be stuck inside of Mobile With the Memphis blues again. Now the rainman gave me two cures, Then he said, "Jump right in." The one was Texas medicine, The other was just railroad gin. An' like a fool I mixed them An' it strangled up my mind, An' now people just get uglier An' I have no sense of time. Oh, Mama, can this really be the end, To be stuck inside of Mobile With the Memphis blues again. When Ruthie says come see her In her honky-tonk lagoon, Where I can watch her waltz for free 'Neath her Panamanian moon. An' I say, "Aw come on now, You must know about my debutante." An' she says, "Your debutante just knows what you need But I know what you want." Oh, Mama, can this really be the end, To be stuck inside of Mobile With the Memphis blues again. Now the bricks lay on Grand Street Where the neon madmen climb. They all fall there so perfectly, It all seems so well timed. An' here I sit so patiently Waiting to find out what price You have to pay to get out of Going through all these things twice. Oh, Mama, can this really be the end, To be stuck inside of Mobile With the Memphis blues again. I figure by the time I get it all figured out I'll be in my dotage big time and the issue will have ceased being what it is now. Ain't my business but I think y'all should stop arguing with each other. Yer the good guys fer krissake. |
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16 Aug 09 - 10:03 PM (#2701964) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Ron Davies "eye-opener as to what a police state" the US is. And, contrary to recent comments, it's not just one person favoring us with such remarks. We also have: "Do you need a license to breathe in the States?", etc. That's the crux of many of our comments--the absurd degree to which that sort of attitude is off target. The fact is: if neighbors find an outsider's behavior suspicious, they have the right to call the police. At that point, if said outsider has no ID, it is reasonable to get some. As I noted, Mudcatters should actually be glad this happened: it seems to show that, at least in NJ, poor blacks can possibly get some response from the police against what they believe might be a suspicious character--a shabbily dressed, disheveled older white man behaving strangely in their neighborhood. And just his claiming to be an internationally known rock star is not enough--he has to back this up with some evidence. Sounds like the NJ police have a lot more on the ball than the MA police. Of course, it also helped there was no anti-police rant involved this time. |
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16 Aug 09 - 10:52 PM (#2701980) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Azizi Here's another article about this incident: Bob Dylan Picked Up by Police P osted by Miss Cellania in Odd News on August 15, 2009 at 7:11 am "Legendary musician Bob Dylan had a brush with the police last month in New Jersey. Long Branch police officer Kristie Buble responded to a call about an "eccentric-looking old man" in a residential neighborhood. Buble approached the man and questioned him. He had no ID, and said he was Bob Dylan and was checking out a house that had a "for sale" sign. Buble later said, "Now, I've seen pictures of Bob Dylan from a long time ago and he didn't look like Bob Dylan to me at all. He was wearing black sweatpants tucked into black rain boots, and two raincoats with the hood pulled down over his head. Buble decided to humor the old man who didn't know the address of where he was staying, and gave him a ride to the hotel he described. There were tour buses parked there, and entourage members vouched for Dylan's identity. They went so far as to produce his passport for the officer. A police department source said Buble had taken her share of good-natured ribbing from some of the older officers. "To really appreciate the story from our end, you have to see Kristie," one cop said. "She looks like a 16-year-old kid, next to this living legend. It was unbelievable." " http://www.neatorama.com/2009/08/15/bob-dylan-picked-up-by-police/ -snip- For what it's worth, the articles about this that I have read that identify the community indicate it was a predominately Latino neighborhood. It also appears from the articles I've read that the neighborhood may have been low income, but it wasn't a public housing development. Also, for what it's worth, in the article that is quoted above, the description of Dylan's clothing differs from the description in the article which GUEST,Gerry provided a link for (15 Aug 09 - 02:22 AM). In that article, Dylan is said to have been wearing a blue jacket. If he was indeed wearing black sweatpants tucked into black rain boots, and two raincoats with the hood pulled down over his head" that may have added weight to the residents and the police concerns about the "eccentric-looking old man". My reading of this article is that the police may have been concern ed that Dylan was a man who had wondereed away from a hospital or he was a man who may have needed to go to a homeless shelter. |
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16 Aug 09 - 10:54 PM (#2701982) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Don Firth "So now we find out that Don Firth lives in 'a 100 year old building, well maintained, and it has a brass plaque in front designating it as a historical building. Architecturally quite interesting.' "Damn liberal elitist..." Frogprince, the building I live in is the oldest co-op apartment building in the city of Seattle. It became a co-op in 1946. Barbara and I bought into the building thirty-two years ago, getting a one-twentieth share (which includes the apartment) for far less than we would had have to pay for a house or a condo half the size. Good timing and a lot of luck! It got historical status from the city because it is quite a nice building and it is the first co-op apartment building in the city. By the way, it's well-maintained because we (the owners) do the maintenance ourselves. Like I said, it's a cooperative apartment building. I trust you were merely twitting me, but just to keep the record straight. . . . Don Firth |
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16 Aug 09 - 10:56 PM (#2701984) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Peace I saw Dylan a few times waaaay back in the Village days and he looked like that then. |
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16 Aug 09 - 11:03 PM (#2701986) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Azizi That Neatorama blog http://www.neatorama.com/2009/08/15/bob-dylan-picked-up-by-police/ has 41 comments to date about Bob Dylan's experience with the New Jersey police officers. It's interesting to read the comments posted by that blog community and see how similar and how different those comments are from the ones on this Mudcat thread. |
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16 Aug 09 - 11:06 PM (#2701987) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Peace Interesting read, Azizi. |
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16 Aug 09 - 11:07 PM (#2701989) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Peace Does anyone know whether he bought the house? |
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16 Aug 09 - 11:17 PM (#2701994) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Peace From the site Azizi linked to: "> [Poster quoting an article he'd read] Now, I've seen pictures of Bob Dylan from a long time ago and he didn't look like Bob Dylan to me at all. He was wearing black sweatpants tucked into black rain boots, and two raincoats with the hood pulled down over his head.["] Looks like Bob Dylan to me. |
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16 Aug 09 - 11:23 PM (#2701997) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Little Hawk Now there's the question everyone should be asking. ;-) You are a brilliant man, Peace, and you know I've always said that. |
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16 Aug 09 - 11:24 PM (#2701998) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Little Hawk About whether he bought the house, I mean... |
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17 Aug 09 - 04:28 AM (#2702056) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Dita The out walking is just the latest version of Dylan's pre gig ritual. About 15 years ago it used to be solo jogging. At that time, while playing the SECC in Glasgow, he decided to jog from his hotel to the gig. Hoodie, tracksuit bottems, no ID. Security at the gig wouldn't let him in. He had to go back to the hotel and get some. Gig security can be like that in Scotland. Eddi Reader, trying to get into the green room at Celtic Connections, was told "Nae pass, nae entry". "Don't you know who I am, I'm Eddi Reader" says the bold Eddi. "Naw, Hen", says wee Annie on the door, "A don't dae famous". |
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17 Aug 09 - 10:04 AM (#2702191) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: frogprince Yes, of course I was just messing around with Don Firth; but what I was primarily after was the hair-brained/cynical criteria being used to brand people as "elitist". Dean |
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17 Aug 09 - 10:07 AM (#2702192) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: GUEST http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/09/opinion/09ehrenreich.html This about says it all... |
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17 Aug 09 - 10:08 AM (#2702195) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: GUEST,InOBU Lorcan Otway New York Times on the cirminalisation of poverty in a rush, but this says it all, sorry about the above, big hurry, |
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17 Aug 09 - 10:41 AM (#2702212) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: fretless None of the posts seem to have cited Ray Bradbury's 1951 short story, The Pedestrian, about someone in the future who gets busted for waking. Based on a stop-and-question with the cops that Bradbury himself suffered. Back in the early 60's one of my buddies, teenage, white, reasonably stocky, somewhat threatening looking, was routinely stopped and questioned by police when he walked in our neighborhood. And after my hair grew longer, so was I. Just part of growing up in America, we figured. And even though it has been written above by others, I can't resist adding that it was lucky for Bobby that he wasn't walking with Skip when the cops came by. |
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17 Aug 09 - 10:58 AM (#2702232) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: GUEST,Mr Red Most "famous" people crave a little anonimity, sometimes. I think we can say Bob got a bit that day. |
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17 Aug 09 - 12:14 PM (#2702283) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Amos Damn, Peace. We must be linked through Dylan's ether or something--that song has been percolating in my brain since I read this story!! A |
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17 Aug 09 - 12:19 PM (#2702287) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: GUEST,MtheGM Fretless's post above citing Bradbury's The Pedestrian [1951] + some of his own & his friend's experiences from the 60s, makes a point that has been ticking in my mind as I have read thru this thread:— in contradiction of several posts above which claim it 'wasn't like that in the old days, my parents used to walk everywhere', it has always been known over here in the UK that walking in LA was a no-no. In the early 1930s, P G Wodehouse, working then as a studio scriptwriter, placed on record how eccentric he appeared to his colleagues, & how suspicious to the police till they got used to him, for his insistence on walking the several miles each morning from his Beverley Hills {I think} home to his Hollywood workplace thru the streets of Downtown Los Angeles, & back again in the evening. It would appear that not much has changed. My own experience of LA has been that, tho one can walk freely within the quarter one happens to be in, it is impossible to cross the freeway-network into another part of the city on foot. |
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17 Aug 09 - 01:02 PM (#2702314) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Little Hawk Yes, I've heard that about L.A. too. Fortunately, I've never had to live there. ;-) |
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17 Aug 09 - 01:09 PM (#2702320) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: fretless MtheGM rightly understood that when I wrote that The Pedestrian was about "waking" in America I really meant "walking." I guess it was back in early spring 1965 that I ended up in Scottsboro, Alabama with some friends in a car with New York State license plates. We parked in the center of town and in less than five minutes the local cops had bundled us down to the police station for an extensive background check (mostly focused on determining if any of the women with us were underage, or if we were there as part of the Civil Rights movement). We were really polite about it and everything worked out OK, which is not what I suspect would have happended if we'd given the cops any lip...or if any of our crew had been black. There have always been extensive limits placed on so-called Constitutionally-guaranteed rights in America. That doesn't mean the limits are correct, or that enforcement of the limits isn't determined in great part by race or apparent social class affiliation. By the way, what was Bobby wearing when he got stopped? I'm guesing it wasn't a three-piece suit! |
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17 Aug 09 - 01:22 PM (#2702326) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Little Hawk That's an excellent article on the criminalization of poverty, INOBU. It isn't just a recent phenomenon. It's been happening for thousands of years. The poor have virtually always been treated in a prejudicial manner by law enforcement and the court systems. Why? Because they're poor, and they get no respect, that's why. They have apparently failed the competitive game of life in society's eyes...therefore they are penalized for that apparent failure in a thousand little demeaning and nasty ways. I think it's a reflection of how much most people fear poverty. They express that fear instinctively when they bring down the law on poor people. They are attacking what frightens them at a very deep psychological level. Some other common things most people are afraid of: - getting old - getting ill - dying - being physically unattractive - being unpopular - being alone If you are any of the above, then you are already in a position where you're going to get a much less positive reaction from most of society around you than if you were, say....young, attractive, rich, healthy, popular, and surrounded by your "friends". It's just like the wounded bird in the flock of chickens. The others will commonly peck it to death. Why? Well, perhaps they are afraid at some level of being wounded themselves. "nobody loves you when you're down and out" Dylan probably looked (superficially) like someone who was down and out. That aroused suspicion in someone's mind, so they called the cops. If he actually had been down and out...powerless in the face of society, in other words...it would have been just one more unpleasant incident in a life that already could promise little but a succession of unpleasant incidents. And that's scary. No wonder most of us are so afraid of poverty. I know it scares me. |
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17 Aug 09 - 01:56 PM (#2702344) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Little Hawk Oh, here are some other things people are really scared of: being seen as "stupid" or "wrong" or feeble-minded or weak or incapable And see what happens in general to those who are seen that way. |
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17 Aug 09 - 05:30 PM (#2702538) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Don Firth Yeah, froggy, I got it. But I just wanted to explain things in some detail for those earnest folks on this thread who don't seem to be able to see the funny side of things. Irony seems to slip by a lot of people. . . . Don Firth |
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17 Aug 09 - 06:18 PM (#2702590) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: WFDU - Ron Olesko "If he actually had been down and out...powerless in the face of society, in other words...it would have been just one more unpleasant incident in a life that already could promise little but a succession of unpleasant incidents." That is making an assumption. If you have a bias that all authority figures are out to make life miserable then the outcome will never be acceptable. IF you choose to ignore all the times police and othes help the homeless and poor, then life will be full of unpleasant incidents. You can choose between whether the glass is half empty or half full, or you can decide the water is also tepid and the glass is dirty before being served. |
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17 Aug 09 - 06:53 PM (#2702621) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Don Firth You know, thinking back, I can't recall an unpleasant or unhelpful experience I, personally, have had with the police. And I've known a couple of cops personally. Randy Remmon, who, when he wasn't on duty, used to hang out in Pamir House, a coffeehouse in the University District that featured folk music and where I sang a lot. Randy also played a bit of 5-string banjo. Randy's younger brother, whose name I forget, who was also in the police department. Ben Johansson, the beat cop in the University District. Cool guy. The only time I ever saw Ben give someone a large ration of grief was when the guy pulled over on the wrong side of a busy street (right into oncoming traffic) because he spotted a parking place. Right by where Ben was standing. He got out of his car and found himself staring at a broad, blue-clad chest with a badge on it. Ben started to write him a ticket and the guy started lipping off at him. Ben gave him a long look, said nothing, but the more the guy mouthed off, the more Ben wrote. He stood there with his ticket book and wrote for hours. But the guy had really asked for it. I think it depends a lot on a person's attitude. Dylan was cool, the cops (simply doing their job—investigating what a neighbor had reported as looking like suspicious behavior) were cool, and everything came out okay. So what's all the fuss? Don Firth |
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17 Aug 09 - 07:07 PM (#2702630) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: bobad "I saw Dylan a few times waaaay back in the Village days and he looked like that then." In Suze Rotolo's, Dylan's girlfriend from that period, recent autobiography, "A Freewheelin' Time: A Memoir of Greenwich Village in the Sixties", she mentions that he spent a lot of time in front of the mirror to get a look that said he didn't care about how he looked. |
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17 Aug 09 - 07:55 PM (#2702670) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: GUEST,mg isn't it hare-brained? Maybe not. mg |
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17 Aug 09 - 08:32 PM (#2702686) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: frogprince I've had an annoying experience or two. Years ago I was driving around in a fairly scenic rural area just a few miles south of home. I was just out looking for spots to photograph. The area has quite a few high-end homes, some worth a few million. (None of which I was even hanging around near.). I was driving an aging Subaru that was getting ratty. I was stopped twice within an hour or so by local police and interrogated as to my excuse for being alive there. I gave my license; they asked how long I had lived at my current address, and I told them. We were on Brocker road; they asked me how to pronounce Brocker correctly, the apparent implication being that if I didn't know how to pronounce it, I didn't belong there. I'm white, the area is white, and I don't think there was anything about my physical appearance that would normally push any buttons. They finally got off it and let me go, but I have never had any idea but conjecture as to what that was all about. |
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17 Aug 09 - 08:35 PM (#2702687) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: frogprince When I typed that, it began to the effect that I've never been brutalized, or anything close to if, by the police, but... |
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17 Aug 09 - 09:06 PM (#2702708) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: open mike well, wording is a funny thing: "street walking" is a totally different thing than just walking down the street--or sidewalk as it were. * Main Entry: street·walk·er * Pronunciation: \ˈstrēt-ˌwȯ-kər\ * Function: noun * Date: 1592 : prostitute; especially : one who solicits in the streets — compare call girl |
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17 Aug 09 - 10:37 PM (#2702776) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Ron Davies You're right, Open Mike. Only the slight distinction of 2 words versus 1 word. I was going to point that out too. That article is delightful, Azizi. It would be somewhat interesting to know how the person who called the police described Dylan: was that "eccentric old man" a direct quote from the policewoman, the citizen, or both? Admittedly, Dylan does look, as a former girlfriend with a good turn of phrase liked to say, as if he's been "ridden hard and put away wet". But I think we've put the "police state" etc. canard to rest, much as some people, especially some who don't live in the US, may want to believe it. It must fit their comfortable preconceptions of the US. |
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17 Aug 09 - 10:39 PM (#2702777) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Ron Davies "eccentric-looking old man" |
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17 Aug 09 - 11:13 PM (#2702811) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: WFDU - Ron Olesko " "street walking" is a totally different thing " It was a joke. |
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17 Aug 09 - 11:31 PM (#2702816) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Little Hawk I've had several unpleasant experiences with suspicious police officers, and they were unpleasant precisely because those particular officers had immediatly decided that I fit a certain profile (long-haired person who is probably a drug user and up to no good). Their decision was based on my appearance not my behaviour. I've had police go fairly far out of their way to provoke me into doing or saying something stupid so they could take some aggressive actions against me. I never allowed myself to be provoked. I always remained calm and cooperative. As a result those particular incidents did not spiral into some kind of very bad situation. In every case the officer in question eventually decided that there was no grounds for busting me (sometimes to their fairly obvious frustration). In every case the officer let me go on my way eventually without further harassment...once after wasting my time for at least 25 minutes and attempting to provoke me and a friend of mine into some kind of altercation by calling us "assholes", etc. We did not react in kind. But.....I have also had an even greater number of pleasant and helpful encounters with police who behaved excellently, and I have had several good friends over the years who ARE cops. Thus, whatever statements I have made here about the police, it would be a mistake on someone's part here to assume that those statements are intended to cast all police as either bad (one extreme) or good (the other extreme). It would be a mistake to assume that I am talking in all-or-nothing terms, though it might be convenient for YOU if you wish to put my statements in that light just so you can convince yourself I've said something that you have a big issue with. Police are like other people. They run the gamut. They come in all flavors, so to speak. They sometimes abuse their powers, they sometimes don't abuse their powers. Some are bullies, some are not. Some are honest, some are corrupt. Their behaviour varies from the extremely good to the extremely bad and everywhere in between, all depending on the individual cop, his department, and what's going on and how he or she deals with it. So don't misinterpret my statements here by putting them in black and white all-or-nothing terms, and then we'll probably understand each other just fine. Dylan conducted himself well. So did the police. There is no fuss here as far as I'm concerned. |
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18 Aug 09 - 08:03 AM (#2703004) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Ron Davies ABC online: The young policewoman's sergeant "opened the car door, looked in, and said: 'That's not Bob Dylan'. So she wasn't the only one who doubted. And Dylan has a history of intentionally seeking anonymity. He's got it down to a fine art. |
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18 Aug 09 - 08:42 AM (#2703029) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: GUEST,Mr Red I well remember reports years ago that Maurice Chevalier loved to walk to work in LA. The studio had a limmo follow all the way, because they feared the image was that they couldn't afford to pamper their stars. Or maybe opportunist would try to disrupt the schedule or hold him to ransome. |
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18 Aug 09 - 10:14 PM (#2703484) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Ron Davies Now this is interesting. I was just talking with my wife, formerly of Bradford on Avon, and she says that she used to go walking in her downtown area at night when she could not sleep. And it appears the vaunted cherishing of eccentrics in the UK has a definite limit. When she was looking into store windows late at night, she was picked up by the police--and they made it clear it was not for her own safety, but that they thought she might do more than window-shopping. So it appears the UK is a police state--at least as much as the US. Who knew? |
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18 Aug 09 - 10:17 PM (#2703485) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Peace Window shopping made easy. |
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18 Aug 09 - 10:20 PM (#2703489) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Peace . . . and from the master. |
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18 Aug 09 - 10:28 PM (#2703498) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Ron Davies But Bruce, I was thinking of one in a very light blue. Will you be getting any of those in stock soon? |
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18 Aug 09 - 11:15 PM (#2703543) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Peace LOL Great to see you posting again, Ron. |
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19 Aug 09 - 12:48 AM (#2703566) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Peace NO problemo. |
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19 Aug 09 - 12:13 PM (#2703855) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Gibb Sahib ....Not recognizing Dylan was a small blunder compared to what was happing around the same time when Newark Airport security detained Hindi film actor superstar Shah Rukh Khan for a couple hours when he arrived in the US the other day. Talk about "dials set on outrage" and absurd overreaction!! The scorn of Hindi cinema fans is not to be played with! Terrible, sensationalized "news" report Shah Ruck speaks and shows his ignorance about visas |
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19 Aug 09 - 02:10 PM (#2703935) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: GUEST,mg Why in the world was not recognizing Bob Dylan a blunder at all? Why should anyone recognize him? Doris Day? Bon Jovi? Policewomen should not be expected to recognize celebrities and it is good for the overinflated egos of celebreties sometimes if they don't..and I would hardly count Bob Dylan as a current celebrity..and then to expect they should recognize university professors? Minor league baseball players? World-reknowned chess players? Child prodigies? Nuts. mg |
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19 Aug 09 - 03:11 PM (#2703975) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Little Hawk Yeah, okay, fine, mg. But if they don't recognize Chongo Chimp when they stop him, there will be hell to pay! |
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19 Aug 09 - 10:45 PM (#2704326) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Ron Davies I'm listening to and learning a bunch of great Sam Cooke songs. In the liner notes to the CD it says Sam wrote "Another Saturday Night" while on tour in England (only one, as it turned out). He was staying in a posh hotel in London and "they would not let us have any female guests". That inspired the song. So, of course since the hotel would not Sam and his group have female guests, that proves the UK is a racist society. Right? Since there could not possibly be any other explanation. So just in the last day, we've proven the UK is both a police state and a racist society. I'm surprised anybody ever wants to visit. |
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20 Aug 09 - 12:08 AM (#2704375) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: TRUBRIT Just an observation....I'm a Brit -- have lived in the US for years. Here, I don';t leave home with out my ID because that is what the socio/political norm is -- CARRY ID. In the UK I wouldn't think of carrying my passport around unless ] knew I wanted to cash a cheque - or whatever = because that is the norm over there.....what's the big deal - or am I missing something--when in Rome. The Queen doesn't carry ID but her minders don't let her out alone...... |
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20 Aug 09 - 12:20 AM (#2704380) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: MGM·Lion During World War II, however, as a symbolic "we are all in this together", the Queen's father King George VI was known always to carry his wartime identity card and produce it whenever he made a visit. I remember when my N London school was bombed out in 1940, he and Queen Elizabeth came to inspect the damage, producing their ID cards to the Mayor of Hendon who was in charge of the occasion. |
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20 Aug 09 - 12:28 AM (#2704384) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: TRUBRIT Ah well - appropriate for the times........who would expect less? |
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20 Aug 09 - 12:49 AM (#2704391) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: MGM·Lion Indeed — but to spell out my point re this thread — these are emergency times likewise, since 9/11 &c; so even Dylan might have been expected to have sense to carry his ID, even if he The King as George VI was during that previous emergency... |
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20 Aug 09 - 01:03 AM (#2704397) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: TRUBRIT Perhaps I wasn't clear -- I am in total agreement that in the US one should carry ID -- it is the norm. And if one is Dylan and not used to carrying ID, one's handlers should point this out to one.........! |
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20 Aug 09 - 05:20 AM (#2704472) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: GUEST,Inobu Lorcan Otway there are many situations as a Quaker in the US, I refuse to show ID, because much of the asking for it is the theater of contol around the US belief that we have the right to kill in any nation on earth which cannot stop us. Our assasins have killed in a number of nations with whom the US is not at war, and then, of course there is the killing at war. This is a violent and agressive nation and the US does not believe, any more, in the right to be left alone. Frankly, if I were a Black American, I know from the experience of friends, I would not get away with not showing ID, and am protected by my "plain clothes" - folks thing that "Amish" fellows don't have ID, and would not know the difference between a plain dressing Quaker and an Amish person if one bit them on the ass, which we do not do anyway. There was a book, "Black like me" written when I was a kid, about a white fellow who got Melonin injections to experience what it was to walk around America as a Black man... reading this thread makes me believe it not only should be read more often, but a year of being Black would be a good part of every American's education espcially if it included being poor. By the way, when he was younger Woody Guthery WAS asked for ID, and showed his guitar callouses to keep from being arrested for vagerency. Loving all here, but tired as hell of living in a police state Lor |
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20 Aug 09 - 07:05 AM (#2704527) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: GUEST,Dani If you can stand another ID story: I lost my parking ticket @ the airport, and figured I'd suck up the 'all-day' rate. But no. Had to wait while the cashier re-directed all the traffic behind me at the one open booth, then back out, and park at the main parking authority building. And wait for the 'someone' I needed to talk to. He explained that the 'paid' reciept I had wasn't good enough, because I might have just "picked it up off the ground!". Weirdly, he did offer to go back the terminal and find the ticket he seemed not to believe I dropped somewhere. I wish I'd had time to let him, swear I woulda done it. He moseys to the cashier booth, presumably to tell the man I am STILL willing to pay the full rate, and then waves me to the booth. Where the cashier proceeds to ask me for my driver's license. Stupidly, I handed it to him. He starts typing things into his computer! "I JUST WANT TO GIVE YOU THE $12!!!" Hands the license back. "Your phone number? I have to fill out the form" No. NO! Here's my @12 and I JUST WANT TO PAY YOU AND LEAVE! Finally he took my money, and the more I think of this, the madder I am at myself for not having the time to take a stand. Dani (who is not at all sure that Bruce Springsteen would be recognized on the street in most of NC!) |
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20 Aug 09 - 01:42 PM (#2704770) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: PoppaGator I haven't looked back here for quite a while. I'm amazed at the vitriol. If I was the one who "introduced race" in to this discussion by relating my interpretation of what "low income housing area" usually means, I apologize. As it turns out, the neighborhood was Hispanic, not African American. A visible non-white minority group, albeit not the one that I had assumed. But still a place where a white guy "wandering" alone ~ on foot ~ might well be a drug buyer, and might well be reported as "suspicious" by the local folk. Ron is right ~ this story is just a laugh, no big deal. Nobody got hurt, or even insulted (not deliberately, anyway ~ who knows how Bob felt about both cops not recognizing him, or even his NAME?) Mudcatters are not the only ones gulty of blowing this incident out of proportion. One New Jersey newspaper's headline for this story stated that Dylan was "frogwalked" into custody by the police. I've never heard of frogwalking before, but it certainly sounds not-nice! |
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20 Aug 09 - 03:08 PM (#2704856) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: WFDU - Ron Olesko "Loving all here, but tired as hell of living in a police state" Sorry, but I still feel that is an overstatement. We certainly have issues, but try living in a real police state and you will see the difference. Keep working for the better, but don't denigrate the progress that has been made. |
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20 Aug 09 - 07:43 PM (#2705094) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Declan So someone called up the cops and they arrived on the scene with their red lights flashing the hot new Jersey night. One person walking the cops they did see and a man called Dylan moving around mysteriously. I've no Id he says and he throws up his hands, I was only looking at property, I hope you'll understand. And so theu took him to the jailhouse, where they try to turn a man into a mouse... |
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20 Aug 09 - 10:16 PM (#2705159) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Ron Davies Interesting Dylanesque poetry--perhaps actual Dylan, tweaked a bit? But, as usual with Dylanesque creations, only a fleeting connection with reality. And a great illustration of just why folkies have such a stellar reputation in the outside world in their comments on politics. Just as the most recent "police state" citation is. As my fellow Ron says, anybody who doesn't recognize that labeling the US, UK or any Western nation a "police state" is rather absurd hyperbole should try something a bit closer to the mark. Try, for instance, living in current Iran or North Korea. And please be sure to keep in touch, so you can tell us the truth about life there. And sure there is racism in the US--and possibly the UK. Sure there is abuse by police in the US and possibly the UK. But neither in the case of Prof Gates nor in the case of Dylan did the broad-brush posturers prove their point: in the case of Prof Gates," racial profiling", and in the Dylan case, "police state". Though that certainly is not meant to curtail any of the purple prose we've come to know and love on Mudcat--like "police state" or "Do you need a license to breathe in the States? For some posters, it seems Mudcat's alias should be "Fuzzy Thinking R Us". I happen to think that in the case of Prof Gates, the arrest was in fact police abuse of power--since it was clearly not justified. But racial profiling in that case is not proven by a long shot--except by a poster who is a classic "Nowhere Man" (or woman)--just sees what he wants to see. And Dylan himself--if he were ever honest--would admit that he was treated fine by the police. Though, don't worry, that won't be reflected in the song which comes out of this incident. |
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21 Aug 09 - 04:31 AM (#2705258) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Declan This is a story of a man of fame, But it seems the cops didn't even know his name, So they treated him like he's a bum, Put him in a black and white but at one time He was one of the best known people in the world... Cue the violins. |
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21 Aug 09 - 07:02 AM (#2705317) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Ron Davies Just be sure to make the violins soupy strings. |
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21 Aug 09 - 07:04 AM (#2705318) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Ron Davies And I should have said "Zimmermanesque" poetry. After all, "Dylan" has appropriated the name of a real poet. |
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21 Aug 09 - 10:25 AM (#2705415) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Amos THe cops said, Kid, your story keeps on gettion' slimmer We've got information you're a guy named Zimmer Or RJ or Zimmie, or some other claim That's an awful lot of handles to insist on fame! And then some teeny boppers started pounding on the door, Just like last night, and the night before YEllin' "We wanna throw our underwear at HIM!" That's BOB DYLAN that yer callin' Zim!" And at one time he Was the CHAMPION of the WOorrrrrrlllllld!!!!!! |
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21 Aug 09 - 12:56 PM (#2705539) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Howard Jones MtheGM said "these are emergency times likewise, since 9/11" I think that's another cultural gap between the US and the UK. I don't know any Brits who think we are living in "emergency times". I've lived most of my adult life under the threat of terrorism (some of it, incidentally, financially supported by US citizens and given political support by US public figures) so the current situation is nothing new. We just live our lives as normal and adopt normal levels of vigilance. Most of us don't feel that justifies being expected to carry ID (and even the politicians who want to introduce it have now dropped the anti-terrorism angle and are now trying to sell it as an anti-identity fraud measure) 9/11 was a horrific event, both in its scale and the nature of the attack, and I can well understand the traumatic effect it has had on the American people. However for most of the rest of the world the reality of terrorism has existed for much longer as part of the fabric of daily life. |
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21 Aug 09 - 03:29 PM (#2705655) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: MGM·Lion Howard - I am writing this from my home in Haddenham, Cambtdgeshire, in the Fens between Ely and Cambridge. I don't know where you imagined I lived, but I am here with you in the UK too — and, since 0707, I think we are living in emergency times. I am, like everyone, fatalistic about it — but then I lived in London right through the Blitz of 1940, and the flying bombs and V2s of 44-45. But that doesn't mean that I think everything is the same as it was before the present militant threat developed. I take your point that we have had longer to get used to this sort of threat than the Americans — tho there were earlier WTC attacks in the 90s, remember, + that loony in Alabama. But a new dimension has appeared in the present century, here as well as there. We don't necessarily need ID; but we do need vigilance. |
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21 Aug 09 - 07:38 PM (#2705797) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: InOBU Hi Ron, why don't you poll the 2.3 million of your fellow contry men living in prison, not counting all those in civil confinement, such as those in prison for years awaiting political assylum hearings, and ask them if they are living in a police state. Frankly, I find it an embarassment, when working on an asylum case, where the respondant has been held in confinement which would not pass minimum needs for criminal confinement, wants to go home to oppression and death after the treatment in prison here. When you live in a nice apartment, drive to work, and all is rosey, it is easy to overlook the aspect of injustice in your nation. As to the times we are living in, the present wars have nothing to do with the percieved dangers of the world today, they are the result of plans by neo-con Americans to use any excuse to invade soverign nations to control the worlds ecconomy through control of the flow of oil. The real terrorist criminals walk amongs us and are called statesmen. THey don't have to worry about being picked up, more the shame. Where is the Nueremburg prosicutor when you need him or her. |
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21 Aug 09 - 10:06 PM (#2705871) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: GUEST None of this would have happened if Dylan had had a dog with him. Guy walking alone in the rain - suspicious. Guy out walking his dog - ordinary. |
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21 Aug 09 - 10:25 PM (#2705880) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Ron Davies Sorry, inOBU--If you don't think living in current Iran or North Korea is vastly different--for people not in the power structure--than in the West, you need to do more reading. Certainly there are abuses in the West, but the scale of abuse is vastly higher elsewhere. If you don't believe this, exactly why not? Compare for instance, the response to criticism of the government here, as opposed to Iran. Or are you one who believes that President Obama is equivalent to Hitler, as that woman at the "town meeting" seemed to feel? |
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21 Aug 09 - 11:34 PM (#2705913) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: GUEST,Inobu Lorcan Otway http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jun/21/iraq-inquiry-tony-blair-bush Everything is relitive... unless you are the poor guy in the cell in some hell hole, we still maintain, under a president I like.... We all say, so what Bob Dylan didn't have his fingers broke like Victor Hara... this time, because it is Bob Dylan, in America, Not the Victor Hara's of today, being tortured by our proxies in cells far from site, because it was not Joe or Bill or Yusef X picked up for the crime of being poor in America... there are times when I wonder at the blindness a little comfort brings. |
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21 Aug 09 - 11:47 PM (#2705923) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: GUEST One more time and 2.3 million more... Funny thing, late at night, meant to go on about Victor Hara also being killed, and it is sight, not sight, but, well, hit the blue clickie, most of the Black folks I meet in my work would quickly describe this as a police state - unless they are in blue and wearing a badge, then it is just one more day of not questioning where their own comfort comes from, and why |
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21 Aug 09 - 11:50 PM (#2705924) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: GUEST As the Lt. prods him in the privates with his radio... don't you think he questions if it might not be a police state? Or maybe he just wishes he was the same color and fame as Bob. |
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21 Aug 09 - 11:52 PM (#2705926) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: GUEST WHoops, the guest above is me again, Lorcan, Inobu, as you will see by the links... As you flip through my photos, use the search term NYPD and ask yourself, how many being arrested there look like you, not just color, but degree of marginalisation, the nation does not look as safe on the frontier, espscially when you are wearing feathers... |
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22 Aug 09 - 12:01 AM (#2705929) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Little Hawk It is a police state...at times...if you happen to be someone who falls through its cracks or who runs afoul of its abusive power structures. And if you are a prisoner in Guantanamo or any number of other paramilitary CIA-sponsored hellholes overseas (most of which we never hear about), you have no doubt that it's a police state. If, on the other hand, you are comfy and happy in your little life and nobody's oppressing YOU at the moment, well...then you can just be complacent about it and say, "We're not Nazi Germany, you know!" No. Not yet. And maybe never. But this isn't a contest which you win by proving that you're not as bad as the absolute worst possible historical example you can possibly come up with. It doesn't work that way. As usual, it isn't a question of all or nothing. It's a question of looking at what's actually happening that shouldn't be and discussing whether it could be improved upon in some way. It can be. |
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22 Aug 09 - 06:53 AM (#2706048) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Howard Jones MtheGM, I admit I had assumed you were writing from America. Nevertheless, I stand by my statement that I have not heard anyone else here express the opinion that we are living in a state of emergency. Obviously there is a very real threat, and constant vigilance is required, but no one I know believes it justifies the sort of measures which were necessary during the War when there was a real threat of invasion. I was born in 1954 but I do remember my parents talking about the Blitz. At the height of the Irish Troubles I worked in an office on Old Bailey, London, right opposite the Central Criminal Court. It had blast curtains on the windows, and there were frequent alerts. Bag searches and metal detectors were commonplace all around London. The present threat is real, and in some ways more dangerous. We shouldn't be complacent, but neither should we allow the government to use it as an excuse to take away our freedoms. If we allow the terrorists to disrupt our way of life, they have won. |
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22 Aug 09 - 07:21 AM (#2706055) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: GUEST,Inobu Lorcan Otway ll this nonsense about threats... "WASHINGTON (Aug. 21) -- Former Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge says pressure from fellow Cabinet members to raise the nation's terror alert level just before the 2004 presidential election helped convince him it was time to quit working for President George W. Bush." I live in downtown New York, was present when the events of 9\11 happened, lived through it, and I assure you the greater danger is the theater of fear brought to us by the terrorists who govern this nation. They took a criminal act and used it to terrify a nation into a crime of greater mass murder. We are not living during the time of the Blitz, we are living through the time of the burning of the riechstag. |
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22 Aug 09 - 08:48 AM (#2706081) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) "I stand by my statement that I have not heard anyone else here express the opinion that we are living in a state of emergency." Ageed. As a relatively young nation, and one used to feeling very powerful, 9/11 seemed something of an 'initiatory' experience for America. |
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22 Aug 09 - 09:42 AM (#2706109) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: MGM·Lion "State of emergency" -- I wouldn't want to overstate it, Howard. It doesn't, I admit, too much [or really at all] effect my day-to-day life. But the police are on a constant state of watchfulness, fortunately for us all. They have special dedicated departments now, to monitor potential terrorist activity: as we gather from the never-out-of-our-papers series of reports of the latest trial of the young man in the back room they have had reports of and found assembling explosive vests, working on toxic recipes, &c — you must admit that such reports have increased exponentionally of late, so that hardly a day passes without some such report hitting the news pages. |
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22 Aug 09 - 09:48 AM (#2706114) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: InOBU Well let's take stock, the first name on the list of religious organisations which are a credible threat to national security, days after 9\11 was the religious society of Friends... should tell you something, the real fear were those who speak truth to power. The fact that we did not get all these special powers given to government over the decades of right wing terror from Christian Patriots, who are the armed wing of the KKK, should also tell you alot about the theater of security, that is all it is, theater to get you to support a government stripping you of rights. |
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22 Aug 09 - 09:50 AM (#2706117) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: InOBU See, I am not anti-police, have a look... there are some small advantages to living in a police state, as pictured here... but all in all... the rights you lose you only miss when you need them. |
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22 Aug 09 - 09:53 AM (#2706118) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: InOBU Don't feel so all alone, everybody must get stoned (click the magic clicky) even Fred Flintstone gets picked up for walking the streets... |
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22 Aug 09 - 03:18 PM (#2706301) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: MGM·Lion Howard - Further to our exchange on here this morning, I would draw your attention as a 'for·instance' to the main report on p23 of this morning's Times, "Students held in anti-terror raid give up fight against deportation". As I say, such reports are now of practically daily occurrence. 'Twas not ever thus! Regards Michael {Haddenham, Cambs} |
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22 Aug 09 - 04:15 PM (#2706334) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: WFDU - Ron Olesko All these examples and opinions people are sharing are describing a system with severe flaws that needs fixed. You are not describing a "police state" by any stretch of the imagination. |
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22 Aug 09 - 04:23 PM (#2706340) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Don Firth Methinks that those here who are howling about living in a "police state" have never, in fact, experienced living in a police state. Reminds me of the 1960s, when some guy parks his VW bus ("Daisywagon") illegally, gets a parking ticket, then rages and storms for weeks about living in a "police state." Downright silly! Don Firth |
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22 Aug 09 - 10:39 PM (#2706383) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: InOBU Hi Don, Methinks those who feel safe in this nation are White. Check out the percentage of Black Americans in jail today. If you would like, I'll post them. The guest above is me again... so here is a bit from the Observer, for you, Don, of the 2%, it is easy not to see America as a police state, but all those "police states" you mention, have a lower rate of incarceration. But, it just is not you, so it is no problem, eh? WASHINGTON (Reuters) - One in every 31 U.S. adults is in the corrections system, which includes jail, prison, probation and supervision, more than double the rate of a quarter century ago, according to a report released on Monday by the Pew Center on the States. The study, which said the current rate compares to one in 77 in 1982, concluded that with declining resources, more emphasis should be put on community supervision, not jail or prison. "Violent and career criminals need to be locked up, and for a long time. But our research shows that prisons are housing too many people who can be managed safely and held accountable in the community at far lower cost," said Adam Gelb, director of the Center's Public Safety Performance Project, which produced the report. The United States has the highest incarceration rate and the biggest prison population of any country in the world, according to figures from the U.S. Department of Justice. Most of those in the U.S. corrections system -- one in 45 -- are already on probation or parole, with one in 100 in prison or jail, the Pew study found. Those numbers are higher in certain areas of the country, and Georgia tops all states with one in 13 adults in the justice system. The other leading states are Idaho, where one in 18 are in corrections and Texas, where the rate is one in 22. In the nation's capital, Washington, D.C., nearly 5 percent of adults are in the city's penal system. This was the first criminal justice study that took into account those on probation and parole as well as federal convicts, Pew said. 'STATES SPENDING TOO MUCH' The numbers are also concentrated among groups, with a little more than 9 percent of black adults in prisons or jails or on probation or parole, as opposed to some 4 percent of Hispanics and 2 percent of whites. Pew compiled the report as states consider cutting corrections spending during the recession. The research group said that by changing sentencing laws and probation programs states can lower incarceration rates and save money. |
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22 Aug 09 - 10:42 PM (#2706384) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: InOBU Oh, for those who say race is not an issue in this, the piece goes on to say... 'STATES SPENDING TOO MUCH' The numbers are also concentrated among groups, with a little more than 9 percent of black adults in prisons or jails or on probation or parole, as opposed to some 4 percent of Hispanics and 2 percent of whites. |
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22 Aug 09 - 10:58 PM (#2706391) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: InOBU By the way, Don, in point of fact, I covered the war in Belfast in the seventies, one of the most extreem police states on this planet. But, more than that, those victims of this police state hardly make the news, and what is told about them in the press is simply spin and lies. My wife and I sat the other day, totally up how many of our friends died during the Bush years, or were jailed, let me tell you about one... Filberto Ojeda Ríos was a friend of mine. I miss him. The FBI shot him, through a window, after shutting all the lights in the neighborhood. They did not hit him in the head, as they planned, so they cordoned off the house as he bled to death over a day and a night. Ask me, ask his wife, ask his friends, those of us who loved him. It is an America, you just are not confronted by, it is an America under the radar of the comfort of your skin and your life. You can even fall out of the comfort of your expectations, get caught with pot, become adicted to pain killers or alcohol, and chances are you will go to what ever level of Betty Ford befits your color and class, but the America I walk within, it is a different story... fall out of the socail contract and you go to jail, or get shot by a state actor or some kid with no expectation of hope. There are two Americas Don, until you spend time in the other one, don't be so confident it is not a police state. |
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22 Aug 09 - 11:55 PM (#2706404) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Don Firth I'm not naive, OBU, and you don't need to lecture me. I've orbited the sun a number of times, and there's damned little I haven't seen, or at the very least, know about. And I live in a racially integrated district in the city. Police state? I could recommend a couple of places you might visit if you want to really learn what a police state is. Don Firth |
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23 Aug 09 - 05:23 AM (#2706477) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: GUEST,Peter Laban Don, I wouldn't argue the US is a police state (which places would you recommend by the way, it seems a sort of rhetorical trick used in this thread a few times without ever coming to concrete suggestions, a bit too nudge nudge wink wink say no more sort of thing. At the end of the day even in pre war Iraq most people, especially the middle classes, are now reported to have lived mostly happy and safe lives much like our own, as long as they stayed away from politics.). Anyhow, from a distance there are a few things that are notable: A few years ago a man on a different forum (Chiff & Fipple)told how he was driving through LA, on holiday from the UK, when he was pulled over by police. He got out of the car asking 'can I help you sir?' next thing he was kicked to the ground and had two policemen pointing guns at his head. The universal reaction of US member of C&F was 'you were lucky they didn't shoot you. You never get out of your car when stopped.' Now, I hear that same undertone in reactions here: 'you do as you're told and don't talk back, otherwise you're in deep trouble', stories have been related here of policemen hassling people into a reaction so they could arrest them (or give them a severe walloping). Anyhow, the general attitude is that of doing as you're told otherwise they'll make things difficult for you. To be honest, stopping well short of invoking 'police state' this is all very disconcerting to those used to a different state of things. Mind you, before anyone starts, recent police brutality and treatment of protesters in the UK is equally disconcerting. |
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23 Aug 09 - 05:37 AM (#2706485) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: InOBU Don, the only difference is, it is thee or me who would be picked up. If we have the largest population in jail, either we are such a corrupt awful place we have to lock everyone up, and we need to take stock, or... well, we... just might be... a... police state. Just because you don't feel likily to get jailed... I don't think you are naive, more the shame. You might re-read Gunnar Mydal on White American reaction to racism... the desire to hope it away, accept that these things happen, but they are really not important... see the injustice of other nations as being much worse, and yet, the staggering number of your brothers and sisters in prision seems to be just so much print on a paper. While we are on the subject of travel, and I have done a bit in my day, I would ask if you ever have been inside an American jail like Rykers, the pit of dispare. The shear size alone is awsome, add to it meeting extended families who recomend you speak to their sister, brother, brother in law, all in this town behind bars. I've been places in America you might visit. But, I assure you, visiting those places without the expectation of possibly winding up there does not do much for the soul. Living in a racially integrated part of the city wont do it for you Don, live in the part of an American city where there are few middle class whites, live in a project building where basic American rights are set aside... live in the communities described in the times artical above about the criminalisation of poverty... Hell, here in the happy hippy dippy East Village we are as economically and racially diverce as we can get, and as a result, you can think America works. Come with me to do a school concert in Bed Styvestaunt or worse. Do it the way I do, take the subway there, walk, get to know the place, the bars on the school windows with no airconditioning in the summer where it gets over 90 in class and the only airconditioner is in the principle's office... that is race in America, not some well ajusted community where middle class Black Americans are your neighbors, but I would suspect some of them might be able to show you the American police state in their lives all the same. Knowing about something, and understanding it are very different things, Don. And yes, the American people need to be lectured until we begin to understand the security state, the police state, the loss of basic rights in this country of potential due to the use and abuse of fear, of apathy, in the end as you see in the cost to jail all these people, we all pay the price... Freedom is not free, it does not take foriegn wars, it takes vigilence and care, and a people willing to speak up in the face of state evil. |
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23 Aug 09 - 07:00 AM (#2706509) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: bobad Filiberto Ojeda Ríos |
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23 Aug 09 - 02:33 PM (#2706765) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Don Firth I don't think America works. It limps along, badly in need of repair on a lot of fronts. But just as a point, I get damned sick and tired of people who don't know me making all sorts of unfounded assumptions about what I don't know and haven't experienced when it may very well be that I know more and have experience one helluva lot more than they have. There are, indeed, instances of police brutality, and uncalled for intimidation by police, and some folks seem to take a fierce joy in zeroing in such instances. But this sort of thing doesn't hold a patch to some things I've heard from people I know who have lived in real police states. I'm talking about a Hungarian Jew I know who got out of Europe about two minutes before he and his family were about to be picked up and hauled off to a concentration camp. His offense? He was Jewish. Or an Estonian who, not wanting to trade one police state for another, walked across half of Europe with his family when Germany was losing the war and the Russians were moving in. Or Simon, who lived under apartheid in South Africa. Or Ann Nguyen ("Ann" is her anglicized name) who escaped from Vietnam after the Americans left. Or—a long list of people I know personally and have talked to me about their experiences. Including Rolf Holtzman, who was in the Hitler Youth, not a matter of his choice, like, say, an American kid joining the Boy Scouts. He and the other boys (14, 15, 16 years old) were made into soldiers toward the end of the WWII. At their first opportunity, he and a group of other boys surrendered to the Americans. Great life for a kid!! I could list a lot more. True, I didn't share these experiences, but on the fairly rare occasion when someone in the U. S. gets pushed around, or worse, by a cop, there are such things as civilian police review boards. At least there are in Seattle, and complaints about such incidents can be taken to them, and I know of several situations where individual police officers were either disciplined or discharged as a result of charges brought (such as a nonparticipating bystander getting gratuitously maced by a policeman during the WTO riots). A fair number of "overenthusiastic" policemen were fined and discharged in the wake of the WTO donnybrook. And Seattle's police chief took the occasion to do a fair amount of "housecleaning" in the Seattle Police Department. Don't make assumptions about what I know or don't know. Because you don't know! Don Firth |
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23 Aug 09 - 07:33 PM (#2706945) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Don Firth Much of what you are describing, InOBU, is racism, and as bad as this is, it does not make the U. S. a "police state." A police state is when you happen to criticize the government to a friend, in confidence, and that night there is a heavy knock on your door and a bunch of blackshirts haul you off to jail, perhaps never to be heard from again. I know scads of people who are highly critical of the government, both national and local, have been for years—I'm one of them myself—and they're still walking the streets and sleeping at night with no sudden knocks on the door. Some are average citizens and some of them are pretty high profile. And a couple of them are politicians themselves—scathingly critical of the government and who entered politics so they could attempt to do something. Without going into detail, I did have some dealings with a couple of FBI agents back in the mid-1950s. They asked me for information about some people I knew (re: possible communist connections—after all, the people they wanted to know about were folk singer friends of mine). I gave them none, other than to tell them that I was sure they were barking up the wrong tree. They thanked me for my time and that was the last I saw of them. Quite polite and businesslike. Considering the spirit of the time, I was neither shocked nor horrified, nor did I conclude that this meant I was living in a police state. By the way, there's a fellow currently living in the building in which I live who is not being hassled or shadowed at all, even if his name is Mustafa. And I'm sorry about your friend Rios. I don't know what all was involved there; I'd need to know the whole story. But it looks to me as if he was in a bit deeper than merely walking through a strange neighborhood at night. Some reports have it that the FBI was trying to serve an arrest warrant for his having been involved in a Wells Fargo depot robbery years before (to finance a Puerto Rican independence movement), jumping bail after his arrest on that occasion—and that when the FBI tried to serve the warrant, he started shooting first, wounding one of the agents before they opened fire. Rios followers, of course, maintain that that isn't true and that it was simply an assassination. No matter what anyone claims, without an independent, disinterested witness, the truth may never be known. People tend to believe what they feel serves their interests the best. Don Firth |
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23 Aug 09 - 09:11 PM (#2706991) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: InOBU Hi Don: Seattle has a lot going for it, I am told... however, here on the other coast we do not have civilian police review boards, we campained for them and got, civilian complaint police review boards, a lot of difference, the police looking into complaints about the police... you can imagine. Racism by state actors is what makes a police state for Black Americans... Filbertos case is very complicated. He was aquited for shooting at the FBI, as it was proven they had come to kill him the first time. For over 20 years EVERYONE knew where he was, but no attempt to arrest him was made, as there was no evidence against him - he had been held awaiting trial for almost a decade, when a court ruled the government needed SOME evidence, or should try him, but could not hold him awaiting trial forever. He was exicuted a week or so after the loss of New Orleans, a city lost because of wasted resourses on the "war on terror" and because there was little evidence of progress finding real terrorists in the US, other than arresting lawyers for doing their job... they shot Filberto, to show they were making progress in their war on terror. They shot him because a trial would have not gone anywhere, as they had no new evidence against him. But, it backfired because they did a terrible job of shooting him, it would have blown up in their faces, if it were not for the remarkable apathy of the American people, which is the reason most people don't know how bad it is here. It is much eaier to point at Amadeenajad (eaiser to point at him then spell his name, I can tell you that!) than do the hard work of ending our adiction to prison as the solution to the death of the American dreem. Don, dear fellow (and I mean that) you still have not addressed the 2.3 million in jail as evidence of a police state All the best lor |
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23 Aug 09 - 11:43 PM (#2707039) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Don Firth 2.3 million American's in prison is one of the major symptoms of how sick the United States is. Largely a result of really stupid policies. The "War of Drugs" is about as successful as the "War on Booze" back in the days of Prohibition. You have a cold beer on a hot afternoon and suddenly you're a criminal. And it made a lot of profit for real criminals, just as the "War on Drugs" is doing. You'd think the Powers That Be would learn, but that seems to be a rare thing indeed. Lots of European countries handle this sort of thing far better than we do, but obviously these same Powers seem incapable of learning from the success of others as well as from both the successes and mistakes of our own history. I never said the United States is perfect, and I'm not making excuses for the many things that are wrong with it. What I am saying is that even though cops can—and do—get nasty much too frequently (give some guys a gun and a badge and they think they're omnipotent), I don't see this as a national policy as it is in some countries. One should suspicious and stay alert to signs that it may be turning into a police state and be ready to take whatever political action is necessary to pull the plug on it, but the idea of pointing at every instance of a rogue cop—or in the instance of Dylan's encounter, which was merely a case of the police doing exactly what they were supposed to be doing—and yelling "Police state! Police state!" can turn out to be counter-productive in the extreme. E.g., the story of the boy who cried "Wolf!" Stay alert. But keep a sense of proportion. And stay cool. Cheers! Don Firth |
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24 Aug 09 - 07:36 AM (#2707194) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: InOBU Don, what is national policy in a nation which has certain amounts of state autonomy? Certainly when state's police forces get to violent, the federal government steps in and riegns them back, however, violence alone is not what a police state is all about, it is about control of a society by internal force. As you say 2.3 million in jail is a simptom of a sick nation, but, it is not that there are that many people who need to be in jail, it means abstract force is being used to deal with probles which sould be solved by school and work opportunites... and police are the state arm who to the intitial intake on this problem... but if you are White and Bob Dylan, the chances are that the vehical of this initial intake will not wind you up in jail, if you are part of the race and class the the 2.3 million represent, most likely you will. Cheers, lor |
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18 Jul 13 - 10:30 AM (#3538943) Subject: BS: Strolling breaks law in USA? From: Mr Happy Don't walk!! |
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18 Jul 13 - 04:38 PM (#3539076) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: Seamus Kennedy Lucky he wasn't in Sanford, FL. |
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18 Jul 13 - 05:05 PM (#3539085) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking From: McGrath of Harlow Zimmerman on Zimmerman violence... |
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18 Jul 13 - 10:53 PM (#3539146) Subject: RE: Dylan picked up for street walking (Aug 2009) From: Little Hawk Chongo's had problems like this once or twice...probably because of "species" profiling. |
