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18 Aug 09 - 06:22 PM (#2703313) Subject: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Will Fly The Ukulele Orchestra of Great Britain is just completing a live 'Prom' at the Albert Hall - broadcast on Radio 3. Great stuff as usual - with 1,000 ukes in the audience joining in with the Orchestra's 8 ukes on Beethoven's "Ode to Joy". Is this the first time there's been a mass audience joining-in at a Prom - other than singing, of course? |
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18 Aug 09 - 06:50 PM (#2703338) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: GUEST,Joe G I thought the Beethoven 9 was the highlight of the night as I had heard most of the other material before Complaints are already coming in to the R3 message board Not sure if it is the first joining in with instruments - may well be unless they have done something at the Childrens' Prom. |
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18 Aug 09 - 07:03 PM (#2703355) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: MoorleyMan It was a good fun prom, but with some pretty solid musicianship too. Not everyone can have heard most of the other material before, so it must be counted good healthy profile for the Orchestra and its cause. Complaints? - jeez, there's nowt so queer as folk! But why stop at Freude schone Gotterfunken? The very idea of a uke transcription of the whole of Beethoven's 9th symphony is a feast for the active imagination... go for it George! |
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18 Aug 09 - 10:41 PM (#2703513) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Cool Beans Now they know how many ukes it takes to fill the Albert Hall. |
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19 Aug 09 - 02:06 AM (#2703582) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Seamus Kennedy Any Youtube videos yet? Seamus |
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19 Aug 09 - 08:55 AM (#2703759) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Dave Hanson A missed opportunity to kill 1008 feckin ukes, which surely would have been a kindness. Dave H |
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19 Aug 09 - 09:18 AM (#2703776) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: MoorleyMan No Dave, they're NOT banjos! (That popular misconception makes a true uke-enthusiast p-uke...!) Something should be up on UkeTube by now, surely? |
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19 Aug 09 - 09:20 AM (#2703777) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Will Fly Ah Dave, you'd have loved it! They kicked off the set with "Puffing Billy" - wonderful... Give your mind to the Dark Side - you just know you want that tenor ukulele. |
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19 Aug 09 - 10:11 AM (#2703792) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Dave Hanson Baritone maybe. Dave H |
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19 Aug 09 - 01:41 PM (#2703905) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Mick Woods Good to see my old mate Joe Bazouki has achieved fame at last! |
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19 Aug 09 - 01:47 PM (#2703909) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: WalkaboutsVerse A damper: as I said on the RIV thread, it should have been an English Cittern Orchestra - the ukulele is Hawaiian, and GB should be dissolved into republics. |
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19 Aug 09 - 01:49 PM (#2703910) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Les in Chorlton I am against capital punishment but above a certain number and I think I would vote for its reintroduction for large numbers of Ukists sounds too much like Ukip L in C |
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19 Aug 09 - 01:55 PM (#2703917) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Will Fly A damper: as I said on the RIV thread, it should have been an English Cittern Orchestra - the ukulele is Hawaiian, and GB should be dissolved into republics. And, as I said on the RIV thread, you can't subordinate music to ideology. Only plonkers do that. There's no earthly reason to imagine that a so-called "English cittern" has any more relevance to our life than a uke. We've been all over this before on other threads, and you're simply peddling your blinkered, unrealistic view of Englishness. Ultimately pointless - if only you could see it, WAV. |
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19 Aug 09 - 01:56 PM (#2703919) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive) Now this is what I call SOUL music...WAV not withstanding (with his ever increasingly boring and xenophobic remarks) |
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19 Aug 09 - 02:19 PM (#2703941) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Les in Chorlton I'm fairly sure no of this should be taken seriously but what the hell ............... the uke is a fine thing as is a screwdriver but lots are just missing the point L in C |
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19 Aug 09 - 02:35 PM (#2703954) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive) The Ukulele Orchestra of Great Britain does Nirvana Here |
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19 Aug 09 - 02:39 PM (#2703959) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive) ooops and this. If you weren't there you can hear the concert: Prom 45 - Ukelele Orchestra of Great Britain |
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20 Aug 09 - 06:05 AM (#2704495) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: GUEST,JohnMc You can get free lessons here http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/2009/takepart/ukulele/ |
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20 Aug 09 - 06:21 AM (#2704505) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: WalkaboutsVerse Another damper - sadly, many in England now think that the height of culture is being good at another land's culture...why not, rather, revive the English cittern? |
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20 Aug 09 - 06:52 AM (#2704521) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: s&r And another thread... Stu |
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20 Aug 09 - 07:04 AM (#2704526) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Will Fly Revive it if it's worth reviving is the point. And people who are interested in arts and cultural matters don't do them because they consciously want to be good at another land's culture. They do them because they find them interesting, stimulating, exciting, tempting. In the 1950s, as I well recall, Sunday lunch often included vegetables that were boiled to hell and back - to the point of being a smelly mush. Should we revive that method of cooking simply because it was "English"? Do try and get a handle on this, David: just because something is (as you think) "native" to one's country doesn't necessarily make it inherently good or worthwhile. You don't seem to be able to get away from a point of view which dictates that artistic expression - or any other expression - has to flow from a nationalist ideology. It doesn't work that way. When you finally understand this, you might start to talk some sense. Anyway, enough of you, WAV - I must hie me back to my new tenor guitar - an instrument with 4 strings, tuned like a viola, which arose in the 1920s as an alternative device for band musicians who had trained on fiddles and/or tenor banjo. A great instrument, which lends itself to traditional tunes and to jazz. An example here. You might note, in passing, that this sort of stuff was a huge favourite of Jim Copper. |
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20 Aug 09 - 08:35 AM (#2704567) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: WalkaboutsVerse For what it's worth, Will, I'm glad some of our traditions have largely gone - e.g., it's good that tractors have replaced the harsh work of heavy-horses in fields, in my opinion. But we in England have many fine traditions that are being largely forgotten, as modern English prefer to perform (rather than just appreciate) the cultures of other lands, more-and-more. My pentium 2 struggles with such videos, sorry - but I have heard Eliza Carthy and Seth Lakeman playing the tenor guitar, via TV. |
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20 Aug 09 - 09:23 AM (#2704594) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Stringsinger In defense of the uke, it's capable of complex chordal harmony, something that is missing from today's contemporary pop music. That's why it was popular in the 20's and 30's. You could play some decent songs designed by professional songwriters, not the puerile three-chord crap you hear on the radio. I wish these uke orchestras wouldn't waste their time on silly rock tunes. Frank |
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20 Aug 09 - 09:31 AM (#2704600) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Surreysinger Re the uke, it has, of course, now been taken over succesfully by some schools instead of the recorder in order to introduce young pupils to music making. Probably no bad thing - I recall struggling with the recorder, and being totally uninterested in it. It's an instrument that is difficult to play well, and no doubt put many youngsters off because of this, whereas the ukulele is an easy instrument to get basic chords out of to start with. Played well, it can be a virtuouso's instrument - witness the results which the Ukulele Orchestra of GB attain. As to "wasting their time", Frank, I'd beg to differ. The range of different types of music and song that they achieve would defeat many other musicians, and in certain instances (Anarchy in the UK ?) creates a totally different beast from the original with a good degree of wit and expertise = entertainment with skill and expertise. |
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20 Aug 09 - 09:59 AM (#2704616) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Will Fly "Anarchy in the UK" is great fun - and I loved their versions of "Je t'aime" and "London Calling" when I saw them at Dorking last year. For me, the highlights of their repertoire are always "The Devil's Gallop", "The Dambusters March" and "Puffing Billy". |
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20 Aug 09 - 10:06 AM (#2704622) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: GUEST,Mr Red Just as well it wasn't Beethoven 5 I can just see the audience going "Ha, ha, ha, haaaaaa" |
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20 Aug 09 - 02:08 PM (#2704789) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: GUEST,leeneia What a disappointment! The BBC only offers the audio of the concert. I would love the chance to watch the entire spectacle, including views of the eager audience, picnicking while plucking before the doors open. I have been reading about the cittern. It doesn't seem particularly English. Just another member of the ever-evolving zither group. Our planet isn't very big, and some parts of human culture are world-wide. For example, pottery, cooking, and earrings. I believe that the 'Western scale' (do re me fa so la ti do) and stringed instruments could be added to the list of world cultural items. This means that the ukelele isn't Hawaiian anymore. It is a worldwide treasure. |
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20 Aug 09 - 02:22 PM (#2704797) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive) "why not, rather, revive the English cittern?" -WalkaboutsVerse Oh why don't you give it a rest and stop inflicting your whining about an England that never existed, except in Ealing Films (at least they have some grit to them)and in your mind...a hint, WAV...no one cares, and if they have cared it's long gone under the weight of your xenophobic rants that are littered all over Mudcat. Ollie Beak (Ms) |
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20 Aug 09 - 02:36 PM (#2704811) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: WalkaboutsVerse Beak - "xenophobia" is a morbid fear of strangers: I HAVE enjoyed travelling, on my shoestring Walkabouts, through about 40 countries - and, as such, being among, as a visitor, many a culture, thanks. |
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20 Aug 09 - 02:41 PM (#2704818) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive) so what? and I REALLY don't want to visit your website thanks. I stand by what I said. As I said, no one cares about citterns and this mythical England you seem to think existed/exists. Get a grip on reality and take alook around you, England (and the rest of Britain for that matter) is multicultural, multi racial, multi everything, and it's not going to change anytime soon, so get over it! Olivia Beak (Ms) half and half |
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20 Aug 09 - 07:35 PM (#2705091) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: The Vulgar Boatman I was there. It was sodding amazing, and the missus played Beethoven with the best of them. A DVD is to be produced. In this troubled world, precisely what is wrong with this glorious silliness? |
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20 Aug 09 - 09:54 PM (#2705148) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: GUEST,leeneia Thank you, VB. I'll be on the lookout for that DVD. P.S. You don't seem vulgar to me. |
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21 Aug 09 - 02:33 AM (#2705220) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: GUEST,Ralphie It was just a blast!!! Good to hear that a DVD will be forthcoming. An absolute breath of fresh air, and hats off to Roger Wright (Boss of R3) to have booked them..In the same way that he booked the Folk Prom last year. Listening to it, I'm sure that in spite of the knockabout stuff, Wuthering Heights, Silver Machine etc, The Ukes took the gig very seriously, (Hon Mench to the Valkyries. Hadn't heard that before). And to get 1000 people to play at a Prom. Just sheer genius. So, to all the people knocking this Prom. Get a Life. Music is about fun and participation. The more people who get involved, the better. As for WAV...Words fail me...I play both the "English" (sic) Cittern,(well it was made in Northumberland anyway!) and the Ukelele..Which should I give up??? Pray tell me. Just wish I could have got a ticket... |
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21 Aug 09 - 02:36 AM (#2705222) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: GUEST,Ralphie And as Will says to have started with "Puffing Billy" was just sheer genius. A Doffing of caps to BBC Radio in the 50's, Uncle Mac and all. Brilliant! |
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21 Aug 09 - 09:55 AM (#2705400) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive) "In this troubled world, precisely what is wrong with this glorious silliness?" - The Vulgar Boatman Absolutely nothing wrong with silliness at all, we need more of it, and thanks to that modern technology that is DVD more of us will be able to experience this wonderful event Maybe a concerto for massed ukuleles and Bulgarian bagpipes next....? "I was just leaving..." Olivia Beak (Ms) |
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21 Aug 09 - 12:20 PM (#2705508) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: WalkaboutsVerse "Music is about fun and participation. The more people who get involved, the better."...yes, Ralphie, but why not with English citterns upon an English cittern revival...next year?.. |
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21 Aug 09 - 12:34 PM (#2705526) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive) "but why not with English citterns upon an English cittern revival...next year?.." why? I've yet to see an answer to the "cittern problem" If it's simply because it's English and evidence of that is highly questionable, simply because from the 16th until the 18th century the cittern was a common English barber shop instrument, doesn't mean it's origins are English. It seems to me that the term cittern is a generic one and has ben applied to the bouzouki, the octave mandola, the tenor mandola and the mandocello, to name just a few instruments so, WAV, mandocellos at dawn on Wimbledon Common is it? *LOL* Olivia Beak (Ms) CC-GG-dd-aa |
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21 Aug 09 - 01:50 PM (#2705572) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Surreysinger This was the review of this Prom in the Times yesterday. Interestingly enough their critic considered the gig to be demonstrative of typical English nature. There was also an associated report from one of their reporters who participated. I love the description of the band in the publicity for their Liverpool concert in October "Their live show is as though kissing cousins from The Addams Family and The Simpsons are explaining The Turner Prize via Desert Island Discs." Eclectic or what? |
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21 Aug 09 - 02:46 PM (#2705615) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: ced2 Dave Hanson is right! A sadly missed opportunity... next time we should organise the portable chain saws! We speak from bitter knowledge of Uke bands ( or similar!) |
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21 Aug 09 - 04:30 PM (#2705693) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Surreysinger Which rather makes me think that you've never seen or heard this band ced2 ... |
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21 Aug 09 - 07:09 PM (#2705775) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: GUEST,Ralphie WAV.... Very Simple....Even you might understand. You can get a Ukelele for about £25. To have a Cittern made by a decent Luthier could cost anything from £800 to £1500 or indded more. My Sobell cittern cost about £600 in 1973. Don't think you'd get a very large number of players in the Albert for one tune would you? And for the final time the Cittern is NOT AN ENGLISH INSTRUMENT...Geddit? Wht am I bothering? |
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21 Aug 09 - 11:17 PM (#2705902) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: GUEST,leeneia Never mind all that. WAV, do you play a cittern? One source I looked at said the strings are tuned in fifths so it is easy to play. Do you find it easy to play? What kind of music you play on it? I understand it has two strings close together at each position. I've seen lutes, which are strung like that, and i find them rather daunting. |
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22 Aug 09 - 04:50 AM (#2706004) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: WalkaboutsVerse "WAV.... Very Simple....Even you might understand. You can get a Ukelele for about £25. To have a Cittern made by a decent Luthier could cost anything from £800 to £1500 or indded more. My Sobell cittern cost about £600 in 1973. Don't think you'd get a very large number of players in the Albert for one tune would you? And for the final time the Cittern is NOT AN ENGLISH INSTRUMENT...Geddit? Wht am I bothering?" (Ralphie)...It IS one of the instruments "OF, OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED, WITH ENLGAND" (from here, as well as that Mudcat thread); and I'd nationalise such production (same link for my views on capitalism). Leeneia - the English flute and keyboards (yes, ideally it would be, rather, an English concertina) are, frankly, about as much as I can chew re. my repertoire of 50-60 English pieces (same link). |
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22 Aug 09 - 01:11 PM (#2706205) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: ced2 Heard them on the radio, still was not impressed! |
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22 Aug 09 - 04:22 PM (#2706337) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: GUEST,Ralphie Nationalise Cittern Production?????!!!! What planet do you think you are on WAV? If you managed to get every Luthier in the country to start making them today....You might get 100 or so made by the next Prom season.... And I suppose you've got a spare 10,000 quid burning a hole in your pocket to pay for them? And then there is the little matter of teaching 100 or so people to play these mythical (Foreign) instruments to a proper standard in the 3 or so weeks leading up to the next Prom season... You really haven't got the faintest clue what you're talking about, have you? BTW Flutes aren't English, and I think the Yamaha DX7 was invented in Japan... |
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22 Aug 09 - 04:43 PM (#2706351) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: WalkaboutsVerse Unit cost would drop as demand for English citterns, rather than Hawaiian ukuleles, in England increased, Ralphie. And the English flute. |
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22 Aug 09 - 10:33 PM (#2706381) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: GUEST,leeneia It is always nice to meet another recorder player. I'm going to use a theme by Handel which I found on the Mudcat (now known as 'Did you see my lady') for an offertory tomorrow at church. On an alto recorder. Last night I showed my husband a few video by the Ukelele Orchestra. At first he said he wouldn't be interested, but after watching a while he enjoyed them very much. |
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23 Aug 09 - 02:14 AM (#2706422) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: GUEST,Ralphie Unit cost would drop as demand for Citterns increases?? How? In nearly 40 years of semi pro and pro playing, I've only met about 10 people who play the cittern, (and that includes working with baroque orchestras!!!)Not that much of a demand really, is there? Sorry Old Pal...The figures just don't work. Go on....Prove me wrong...Order a 1000 citterns (and pay for them) and teach 1000 people how to play one. Off you go. See you in the Albert Hall next summer. |
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23 Aug 09 - 04:08 AM (#2706437) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Jack Blandiver More cultural fascism from our resident racist I see! It's pointless arguing with WAV as his word is Absolute Law - and Absolute Bullshit besides! Sad, sad, sad... |
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23 Aug 09 - 04:57 AM (#2706461) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: WalkaboutsVerse Fascism is a morbid fear of strangers, S, and it's me, not you, who has ENJOYED travelling through about 40 countries; further, questioning instrument of choice has nothing to do with "racism"; and, until now, you are the only one on this thread who has resorted to such cowardly tactics - others have disagreed but stuck to the debate. Ralphie - but is that due to a trend/an attitude, or that the cittern is a far worse instrument than the ukulele, the guitar, the mandolin, the bouzouki..? I heard the English cittern is particularly good for outdoor-playing, as its sound carries well... |
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23 Aug 09 - 05:27 AM (#2706480) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: WalkaboutsVerse Xenophobia is a morbid fear of strangers, sorry; fascism is against democracy and socialism and, thus, I'm against it. |
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23 Aug 09 - 06:18 AM (#2706494) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Jack Blandiver WAV - Fascism is the suppression of individual liberty to one absolute law in the name of a Greater National & Cultural well-being with any amount of bogus Volkishness invariably thrown in for good measure. This is precisely what you believe. You have no interest in the glorious realities of what people are doing, only what they should be doing according to your bizarre alien misconception of what constitutes English Culture. This is Fascism. You are racist because your concept of English Culture refuses to take into account the multiplicity of ethnicities that constitute that culture or yet the multiplicity of influences on which that culture is founded. You are racist because you continue to publish and promote dangerously inflammatory lies founded on your misgivings regarding immigration and cultural process. Take for example your perplexing notion that English culture is taking a hammering and when people lose their culture society suffers . No one but a Fascist and a Racist would ever write such a thing, let alone promote it as being a truth. Indeed, reading through all your other WAV MESSAGES it soon becomes evident that your only interest in folk music is to front your Fascist & Racist concepts of Culture. I'm not talking Xenophobia here, but a deep festering hatred of anything that doesn't comply with your frighteningly narrow misgiving and misunderstandings that you pass off as a good way forward for humanity. * Otherwise... Barbour Shop Citterns (a foreign import like every other aspect of English Culture) were the ukes of their day; a re-entrant tuning facilitated the easy playing of CHORDAL ACCOMPANIMENTS to songs that were WRITTEN ESPECIALLY for waiting customers in barber shops to entertain themselves. No one has done this since the 18th century, so hardly a tradition in any sense of the word - unlike the UKULELE, which whilst being no less English than the Cittern, has been well-established in England for 100 years or more thus lending itself to many aspects of English musical life and capturing the imagination of a broader cross-section of English society that the Cittern ever did. The Uke Phenomenon is a Cultural Reality - it is happening, it is making people happy, it is creating some fine music and musicians in the process. That it is also pissing off Misanthropic Racists and Fascist such as WAV is also A Very Good Thing; thus will I continue to play mine in celebration of the Common Goodness of Human Music. |
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23 Aug 09 - 08:29 AM (#2706539) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: WalkaboutsVerse S.: it is you not I that repeatedly referred to a recorder made in Japan as an "Engrish frute," and told us of your friends who make "racist jokes" at the pub. You will NOT find suchlike from me in my Messages (above) nor anything else I have published. You also told us that the mods have now stopped you from changing your nickname yet again - I'd appreciate if they also question your posts/tactics more closely, too. |
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23 Aug 09 - 09:43 AM (#2706573) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: GUEST,Ralphie Small point WAV....The Cittern (Baroque version) wouldn't even be noticed outdoors.....It's very quiet. S'o P....Well said. But you can't argue with him...I've seen his website, heard his music. Don't think he'll be headlining the Pyramid stage at Glastonbury (A Good English Festival if ever there was one!) anytime soon.... And not a "Good English Cittern" in sight. I think we should just give up on this one. Changing his mindset is like trying to knit fog. |
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23 Aug 09 - 11:57 AM (#2706646) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: WalkaboutsVerse I'm recalling, R., a BBC documentary series, where historians were trying to farm according to 18th century technology; they had a visit from a period musician with a 10 wire-string English cittern, and I'm sure someone mentioned that it projected relatively well, as above. |
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23 Aug 09 - 12:05 PM (#2706650) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: WalkaboutsVerse "It is always nice to meet another recorder player. I'm going to use a theme by Handel which I found on the Mudcat (now known as 'Did you see my lady') for an offertory tomorrow at church. On an alto recorder." (Leeneia)...sounds good - an offertory on a "little organ" (Shakespeare, Hamlet). |
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23 Aug 09 - 05:42 PM (#2706889) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: s&r "I've been well into folk music since the spring of 2004" Says it all really. Sean's education is so much better than yours WAV. His posts are better researched, his knowledge greater, and his English so much better than you display.. Stu |
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23 Aug 09 - 07:55 PM (#2706959) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: GUEST,leeneia Shakespeare was perceptive. What is a pipe organ but many, many recorders turned upside down? With breath not from lungs but from a bellows? Although there are certainly sizes of pipes which cannot be duplicated by recorder players, such as the one that causes the entire church to reverberate and the floor to undulate underfoot. Cool! |
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24 Aug 09 - 04:25 AM (#2707090) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: WalkaboutsVerse Yes, L. - rather than lots of fipple pipes of varying length, recorder players vary the length of one with (sometimes tricky!) fingering. And, as with you, I really like the sound of both. |
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24 Aug 09 - 04:49 AM (#2707103) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Jack Blandiver The general feeling is that Shakespeare wasn't meaning an organ as such, rather using the term simply to mean musical instrument. There is a modern English text HERE that says little instrument, and other notes (HERE) would support this. Maybe the confusion is brought about by Hamlet referring to the recorder holes as both ventages and stops, which serves to underline the metaphorical nature of the text, which doesn't lend itself to any sort of literal clarity as Hamlet is using the recorder to make a point which isn't in the least bit musical. |
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24 Aug 09 - 12:19 PM (#2707348) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: GUEST,leeneia Hamlet: Why, look you now, how unworthy a thing you make of me! You would play upon me; you would seem to know my stops; you would pluck out the heart of my mystery; you would sound me from my lowest note to the top of my compass; and there is much music, excellent voice, in this little organ, yet cannot you make it speak. 'Sblood, do you think I am easier to be play'd on than a pipe? Call me what instrument you will, though you can fret me, you cannot play upon me. [Enter Polonius.] God bless you, sir! ============= I believe Polonius' 'God bless you, sir!' is the Renaissance equivalent of the modern-day of the 'May I help you?' which is uttered in an icy tone with hooded lids. In other words, he thinks Hamlet's nuts. Who wouldn't think so, confronted with so many frenzied metaphors? |
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24 Aug 09 - 12:42 PM (#2707371) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: WalkaboutsVerse ...and "stops" is almost certainly organ stops there - agreed now S.? |
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24 Aug 09 - 12:59 PM (#2707386) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Jack Blandiver I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, WAV, simply reporting that it's almost certainly organ as in musical instrument. What's the problem? The study of musical instruments is organology. If someone in this day and age referred to their little organ we'd probably take pity on them; maybe this level of meaning is buried in Shakespeare's text too. |
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24 Aug 09 - 02:07 PM (#2707435) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive) "And for the final time the Cittern is NOT AN ENGLISH INSTRUMENT...Geddit?" - GUEST,Ralphie Ralphie, most of what WAV blathers on about isn't English, as I posted elsewhere even the English language isn't English, there's just no telling WAV though, he's stuck inside of Mobile with the Memphis Blues, Again...to quote Bob Dylan (who also isn't English *LOL*) Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms) |
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24 Aug 09 - 02:13 PM (#2707438) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Will Fly Charlotte - if you haven't seen them, there are previous other threads either posted by WAV (David Franks), or containing numerous posts by him, which propound the philosophy that we should be in thrall to an English "culture" that never actually existed. David never answers a direct question with evidence from sources other than his own. He merely includes a link to his own previous writings on his website. It is pointless to expect a clear, direct, evidential answer from him to clear, direct questions posed by posters on these threads. |
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24 Aug 09 - 02:18 PM (#2707442) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive) Will I've had the questionable pleasure of reading WAV's other postings, like Guest Ralphie has said, why do I bother? *LOL* Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms) who is also not English. |
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24 Aug 09 - 03:56 PM (#2707512) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: GUEST,leeneia It's correct that Hamlet isn't actually talking about music. He is worried that someone wants him to talk, and talk unwisely. Unfortunately, he can't decide what instrument he is in the metaphor. you would seem to know my stops; (organ) you would pluck out the heart of my mystery; (stringed instrument, or maybe virginal) you would sound me from my lowest note to the top of my compass; (? anybody understand this one?) and there is much music, excellent voice, in this little organ (organs come in many sizes) yet cannot you make it speak. ( Could be a reference to the flute. I had a flute teacher who spoke of making the flute 'speak,' meaning to play a musical note.) 'Sblood, do you think I am easier to be play'd on than a pipe? (must be as in 'pipe and drum.' Bagpipes are hard.) Call me what instrument you will, though you can fret me, you cannot play upon me. (lute or similar) ============= No doubt the audience and actors revelled in all this word-play. |
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24 Aug 09 - 04:34 PM (#2707544) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: WalkaboutsVerse I've seen a TV production of Hamlet, L, and an actor had a recorder in hand. |
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24 Aug 09 - 04:42 PM (#2707553) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: M.Ted Any musical instrument "speaks" when it is sounded. And both wind instruments and stringed instruments can be "stopped" in various ways to sound different pitches. |
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24 Aug 09 - 11:51 PM (#2707830) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: M.Ted Incidentally, the ukulele is derived from the Portuguese braguinha, and, given that the traditional cittern is directly related to the Portuguese guitar--they are equally "English"-- |
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25 Aug 09 - 01:54 AM (#2707862) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: GUEST In other words M Ted..If I understand you correctly....They are both Portuguese! Somehow I don't think that the facts are going to get in the way of WAVs increasingly bizarre notions...No doubt we'll find out later, when he regales us all with his encyclopedic knowledge of all things musical. Must say I can't wait! |
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25 Aug 09 - 03:25 AM (#2707878) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: WalkaboutsVerse That's definitely over-simplistic, Ted and Guest, and, frankly, the following leans a bit that way, too - but less so ("wait" no more): The lute evolved into several instruments in several lands - the mandolin in Italy, the bouzouki in Greece (which, pleasingly, the Greeks bore as musical-gifts during the Athens Olympics), the cittern in England, the balalaika in Russia, the guitar in Spain, eventually, the ukulele in Hawaii, etc. (All elements of our beautifully multicultural world, that's for sure.) |
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25 Aug 09 - 04:03 AM (#2707888) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: GUEST,Ralphie Previous Guest was me sorry. M Ted. What did I tell you? At least we've been spared the links to his site this time. Still would like to know how he's going to get enough cittern players to fill the Albert Hall! And anyway, who really cares where an instrument originated? Yes, there is some scholastic purpose for such a quest which is tangentially interesting, but, to me it's frankly immaterial. I play the instruments that I play. They could come from Iceland for all I care. But, if they sound good..I'll use them. That to me is truly multicultural. Not some rose tinted spectacles version of village greens, Haywains, milkmaids. whatever. Even if they ever existed, all that is long gone, and will not return. Mind you, one aspect of the idyllic rural eay of life seems to have survived...The village idiot!! |
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25 Aug 09 - 04:06 AM (#2707890) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: s&r WAV - about 90% of the posters on Mudcat are skilled musicians, musical technicians, teachers of music, musical historians. Many of them are formally qualified to a high level. Many are qualified to an equal or higher level by their own studies and researches. These are the people who have taken you to task for some years now in an attempt to correct your mistaken ideas, as part of your education, and to disassociate Mudcat from your unschooled and unresearched ramblings (reading Wikipedia and listening to BBC radio don't count). Apart from the friendship and social aspects of Mudcat this has become an international forum of things musical. Your postings are as irritating as graffiti in the Tate gallery or notes written all over the Library copy of the reference book. Many people have extended a friendly helping hand to you, as to any newcomer. Sadly, you don't take advantage of this. In your head you're a nice guy, well read, intelligent, fair minded, humanitarian, knowledgeable, artistic, musical etc. It should disturb you that either your ideas are so wrong as to require constant rebuttal and correction, or that your communication skills are inadequate to convey your ideas to the rest of us. I live in hope Stu |
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25 Aug 09 - 04:19 AM (#2707891) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: WalkaboutsVerse In other words, Stu doesn't want positive English, Scottish, etc., nationalism. |
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25 Aug 09 - 05:02 AM (#2707905) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: The Borchester Echo 'Did you see my lady' I think WAV might mean Handel's Did you NOT hear my lady, more properly entitled Silent Worship though not of the sort manifestly suitable for a church service. This tune has been recorded by Barry Dransfield (vocal + guitar) with two cellos and four violins overdubbed, a sublime example of a musician using what it takes to produce the required effect, regardless of the actual provenance of the instruments. In a specific context, nationalism with a view to self-determination is one thing. Instruments are not, however, gunboats. |
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25 Aug 09 - 05:13 AM (#2707912) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: s&r Oh Go On WAV. Take me through the tortuous logic that leads you to your las post from my last post. I think it probably demonstrates a lack of reading comprehension. How did you pass your fork lift truck course when the instruction manual is so difficult? Stu |
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25 Aug 09 - 05:33 AM (#2707915) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: WalkaboutsVerse Stu - I did a fork lift course in case, when employed as a production manager or supervisor, the fork lift driver (whose work does involve a considerable amount of concentration and skill, yes?) is away. And, speaking of "concentration" and being "away," frankly, I've no idea what The Borchester Echo is on about re. "my lady"; but, as for "Instruments are not, however, gunboats"...they have been, though, use for signals, motivation, etc. in battles (whether or not we agree with those battles). |
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25 Aug 09 - 05:45 AM (#2707920) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: The Borchester Echo Did you NOT hear my lady / Silent Worship Just to be absolutely clear: (1) You got the title completely wrong (2) It's about a bloke ogling a woman singing in the garden (3) BD performs it using three "non-English" instruments. It's an entirely non-nationalistic, secular theme and it is irrelevant which instruments are used so long as the arrangement works MUSICALLY. |
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25 Aug 09 - 06:04 AM (#2707933) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: WalkaboutsVerse I never mentioned such a title, TBE - I have, however, occasionally got a nickname/name wrong here on Mudcat, and I think that's what you have just done..? |
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25 Aug 09 - 06:36 AM (#2707948) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: The Borchester Echo Give us a break WAV. You announced yourself that you were going to play Did you hear my lady (sic) on alto recorder in church. Why was unclear. |
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25 Aug 09 - 06:45 AM (#2707956) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: WalkaboutsVerse That was Leeneia, Echo - and how did it go, by the way, L? (If this was a comedy sketch, I think it would be going quite well!) |
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25 Aug 09 - 06:50 AM (#2707957) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: s&r Eat your heart out WAV listen to a singer Stu |
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25 Aug 09 - 06:58 AM (#2707964) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: s&r If this were WAV - subjunctive... Stu |
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25 Aug 09 - 07:02 AM (#2707967) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: The Borchester Echo From: WalkaboutsVerse - PM Date: 23 Aug 09 - 12:05 PM It is always nice to meet another recorder player. I'm going to use a theme by Handel which I found on the Mudcat (now known as 'Did you see my lady') for an offertory . . . blah blah . . . |
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25 Aug 09 - 07:06 AM (#2707970) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: s&r This is the WAV copy/paste technique - the original post was someone else's (Leenia). It's hard to keep up with his copy/pasting sometimes Stu |
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25 Aug 09 - 07:08 AM (#2707972) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: The Borchester Echo It is. And what's the bleedin' point of trying? |
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25 Aug 09 - 07:08 AM (#2707973) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: WalkaboutsVerse Echo: if you scroll back and check, as sure as eggs are eggs, you will find that I put "(Leeneia)" after a quote, in quotation marks, by Leeneia (a fellow recorder/English flute player), before "..." and my own words. |
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25 Aug 09 - 10:12 AM (#2708106) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: GUEST,leeneia Oh Walkie, you have pierced me to the heart! Surely you don't think I said 'blah blah' ?! :) To tell you the truth, I chickened out on 'Did you see my lady.' I felt it would last too long and it required the packing of another instrument. So I played a Norwegian hymn, 'In Heaven Above,' on the soprano instead. It's a jaunty tune and it went well as people shook hands and greeted one another. Here's what I took: guitar guitar tuner guitar pick guitar neck strap soprano recorder in bag hymnal copy of 'In Heaven Above' made on Noteworthy special spectacles bottle of lukewarm water check for offering cell phone All this to participate in a service whose point is to meditate on the eternal verities and leave this busy world behind. So perhaps you can see why I didn't feel like packing another instrument. |
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25 Aug 09 - 11:16 AM (#2708161) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: GUEST,Ralphie Is it just me? or is Wav talking to himself now?? He's certainly not communicating with the living. |
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25 Aug 09 - 11:34 AM (#2708184) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: GUEST,Ralphie And anyway, to get back to the original topic of this thread. The Ukes were Brill. Wav.. The Uke Ork of GB have more talent between them than you could ever dream about with your "Good English Cittern"......Oh by the way apropos of nothing...Do you actually own a "Good English Cittern?".. Can you play one?...Indeed have you ever seen one? I own One...I can Play one...And I mainly use it for middle eastern music..Oh, what a swine I am...Should be playing Dowland...Take him off to the gallows immediately. Quite honestly mate, and with a heart full of sorrow. You are really out of your depth here. You plainly have no idea of the subjects that you preach about. I wonder what vicarious (look it up) joy you get with your incessant ramblings. You have been offered years of advice for information on various topics. All ignored. I'm beginning to wonder for your sanity. I'd go and seek professional help. This is is not a joke. We've all treated you like a clown over the past few years, and you keep coming back for more. I'm as guilty as anyone. So, Mate..Go and seek some advice about your problem. And when you get it sorted, you will be welcomed back by your former adversaries with open arms. It's up to you. But, carry on as you have done, and you will get eaxactly the same treatment...(Thinks..That is maybe what you want anyway?) Whatever. Good Luck with the therapy, and we'll see you on the other side. Ralph |
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25 Aug 09 - 12:10 PM (#2708215) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: WalkaboutsVerse Ralphie: e.g., several English folk clubs of the 50s and 60s DID have a perform-your-own-culture rule - are you saying they were also "insane", or are you just getting a tad carried away with the mention of Hamlet? Leeneia: you could have "pierced...to the heart" your meditative cong. with "God be in my head" (Davies; Pynson) on the your soprano recorder...but perhaps that would have been a tad brief, and a tad risque for likes of Ralphie. |
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25 Aug 09 - 01:56 PM (#2708288) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive) "Is it just me? or is Wav talking to himself now?? He's certainly not communicating with the living." - GUEST,Ralphie No Ralphie it's not just you, I've had this feeling, for a while now, that WAV is communicating with the dead/mythical. Even they're getting bored! Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms) memo to the office: the cittern isn't bloody ENGLISH!! |
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25 Aug 09 - 02:23 PM (#2708306) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Will Fly The point of the thread - and I was the originator of it - was that the sound of the Ukulele Orchestra of Great Britain, plus the 1,000 ukes brought in by the Promenaders, was a wonderfully joyous musical moment. and what could be more "English" (as well as other things) than the Promenade Concerts? One of the things that WAV has never, ever explained to us, in all his numerous posts, is precisely why separate musical environments - separate musical traditions in separate countries - are a GOOD THING. WAV - say WHY. What is essentially better about such a state of affairs than the present musical environment? I can pick and mix music from all over the world without losing my identity, my heritage or my love and knowledge of English traditional music. So what's the advantage of your viewpoint? Please explain. If you can. |
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25 Aug 09 - 02:28 PM (#2708308) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive) "the Ukulele Orchestra of Great Britain, plus the 1,000 ukes brought in by the Promenaders" -Will Fly any idea on a release date for the Prom DVD, Will? Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms) |
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25 Aug 09 - 02:40 PM (#2708319) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Will Fly No idea, Ollie B - but I shall keep a lookout for it. I saw them in Dorking last year - wondrous stage performance. |
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25 Aug 09 - 02:49 PM (#2708330) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive) Just checked the UOGB official website and found this: "PROMS DVD We filmed the whole Proms performance and are currently producing a DVD that you will be able to buy only from our website. Please join our mailing list by clicking here and we will send you and email when it becomes available" I've just signed up. Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms) |
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25 Aug 09 - 02:57 PM (#2708335) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive) Just found this as well: Ukulelescope Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms) |
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25 Aug 09 - 03:03 PM (#2708338) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: M.Ted WAV, you're the one who oversimplified--not me. You'll never learn anything about music, or instruments, if all you do is cut and paste. The English cittern that you champion, but have obviously never seen, much less played, is, or was, pretty much identical to the Portuguese guitar (why this is true is the subject of spirited debate, among people who care about such things) whereas, the modern, Steven Sobell-type cittern is a cross between a mandolin and a bouzouki. The great man has, in fact, suggested that his instrument be called the "Irish Cittern"--So your are talking about making an Italian/Greek/Irish instrument the centerpiece of an English cultural revival-- |
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25 Aug 09 - 04:49 PM (#2708409) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: WalkaboutsVerse "without losing my identity, my heritage or my love and knowledge of English traditional music." (Will)...as I just posted on the RIV thread, the last Durham Folk Party (all unaccompanied) singaround i attended was both traditional and enjoyable, but, at 43, I was probably the youngest there. "One of the things that WAV has never, ever explained to us, in all his numerous posts, is precisely why separate musical environments - separate musical traditions in separate countries - are a GOOD THING." (Will)...I've said it LOTS of times - because I love our world being multicultural, and I'm sure positive nationalism (WITHOUT imperialism and conquest) is the best and most peaceful way forward for humanity. And Ted: I have, e.g., mentioned a few times watching a BBC series, where hands-on historians, trying to farm according to 18th century technology, were visited by a period musician with a 10 wire-string English cittern, which he said would have been plucked with a feather plectrum. |
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25 Aug 09 - 05:05 PM (#2708425) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Jack Blandiver "without losing my identity, my heritage or my love and knowledge of English traditional music." (Will)...as I just posted on the RIV thread, the last Durham Folk Party (all unaccompanied) singaround i attended was both traditional and enjoyable, but, at 43, I was probably the youngest there. And as I tried to explain you weren't the youngest owing to a loss of traditional culture, but because in Tyneside a lot of people have got into singing Folk Songs in retirement (through Folkworks etc.) and bloody fine they are too. They sing unaccompanied because they're not musicians. You perceive a situation, and you leap to the wrong assumptions. You immediately assume a negative position. Nothing could be further from the truth - there are more people singing in this way than ever, which is a jolly good thing. |
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25 Aug 09 - 05:13 PM (#2708432) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive) "And Ted: I have, e.g., mentioned a few times watching a BBC series, where hands-on historians, trying to farm according to 18th century technology, were visited by a period musician with a 10 wire-string English cittern, which he said would have been plucked with a feather plectrum." - WalkaboutsVerse this has nothing to do with anything, once more WAV avoids the question of separate musical environments. Britain, including England is multicultural (music, the arts, etc) along with the rest of the world, and there's nothing you can do about it, so get used to it! Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms) |
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25 Aug 09 - 05:18 PM (#2708438) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Will Fly I've said it LOTS of times - because I love our world being multicultural, and I'm sure positive nationalism (WITHOUT imperialism and conquest) is the best and most peaceful way forward for humanity. This is an opinion and an assertion. It does NOT answer my question: WHY is it the best? Why is me singing a French song or a Frenchman singing an English song a handicap to the peace of humanity - eh? Quite the opposite, I would have thought - but then logical thought, backed up by external evidence, is not your forte, is it? Evidence of the harmful effects of this cross-fertilisation, please - hard evidence. |
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25 Aug 09 - 05:33 PM (#2708456) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: WalkaboutsVerse Several people at the Durham Folk Party singarounds (which we have both enjoyed, S), including Jez Lowe, can play instruments but CHOOSE to sing unaccompanied. It's not a sin to agree with me on something. |
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25 Aug 09 - 05:37 PM (#2708464) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Will Fly You haven't answered my question. |
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25 Aug 09 - 05:57 PM (#2708487) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Joe Offer Please remember that this is a music discussion forum, and talk about music. Leave your squabbles somewhere else. Thanks. -Joe Offer- |
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25 Aug 09 - 06:35 PM (#2708522) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Jack Blandiver Several people at the Durham Folk Party singarounds (which we have both enjoyed, S), including Jez Lowe, can play instruments but CHOOSE to sing unaccompanied. It's not a sin to agree with me on something. That wasn't the point, WAV. You seem to think there is something noble about singing without accompaniment; I only do so out of laziness, when I can't be bothered taking an instrument along to a singaround. I don't like singing unaccompanied, it's as simple as that; and most of the people I know who do sing unaccompanied do so because they can't play an instrument, not because of some absurd idea of it being traditional to do so. I know some bloody amazing singers and musicians who make the business of FOLK a very pleasing thing indeed. Some sing unaccompanied, others don't; it's their choice and there are no rules beyond what suits the individual. Society is made up of individuals; culture is determined by the choices that they make. |
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25 Aug 09 - 06:40 PM (#2708530) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: M.Ted WAV--Surprisingly, not everything that is presented on television is factual, and even that which is factual may not be a complete picture. Even at that, had the cittern that the "period musician" wielded been historically accurate, it would have been nearly undistinguishable from a Portuguese guitar of the same period. If it had been an authentic instrument from the time, it would have also been difficult to play, and more difficult to tune. Here is a nice piece that discusses some of the multitude of issues related to this instrument-- The 17th and 18th Century Citterns And here are some examples of what it sounds like: Renaissance Cittern Site Audio Files You can see and here the Portuguese version here. Portuguese Fado The still use it in their traditional music. |
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25 Aug 09 - 06:42 PM (#2708532) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: M.Ted Incidentally, that "high string on top" ukulele tuning peculiarity seems to have come from the cittern. |
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25 Aug 09 - 09:55 PM (#2708653) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: GUEST,Ralphie I was going to bow out...and I promise I will. Firstly Ms Beak, I too, have breath that is bated for the Prom DVD...If they've got any sense they should get it out by Christmas...There are at least 1000 people who were at the gig that would buy it...Just because they're on it! Final word to WAV. Yes I did go to the Singers club run by Ewan McColl and Peggy Seeger (look them up) It wasn't just songs from your own nation, it was specifically songs from your own area. And woe betide anyone who deviated from the rule. Only went twice, and then found a club that was much more inclusive and welcoming. BTW I've been trying to get my head (and fingers) around a "Horo" (look it up WAV) on my "Good Englsh/Irish/Greek/Portuguese"..etc Cittern. and it's a real swine...How can you dance in those time signatures..? |
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26 Aug 09 - 03:14 AM (#2708724) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: GUEST,Will Fly on the Hoof David, some sort of response to my question about the negative effects of making music from lands other than one's own would be appreciated. You assert, by implication, that this is a bad thing and not a "good way forward for humanity" - but I see no factual evidence to back this up. I don't think, given the modern age we live in - surrounded, as we are by books, documents, recordings on audio and video, and live folk sessions everywhere, that English traditional music is in any danger whatsoever of being marginalised or forgotten. My own experience in my own part of Sussex, and elsewhere, is that there's more music around than you can shake a stick at. So - where's the evidence for your assertions? And, to return to the original points in this thread, nothing could be more English - in the sublimest sense of the word - than the UOGB. They combine musicianship, humour, irony and entertainment to a superb degree. If you can't understand that, there's no hope for you. End of thread as faras I'm concerned. |
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26 Aug 09 - 05:06 AM (#2708770) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Jack Blandiver It wasn't just songs from your own nation, it was specifically songs from your own area. And woe betide anyone who deviated from the rule. Where would that leave, WAV? Born in Manchester, socialised in Australia and latterly fetched up in Tyneside... Most who know him (myself included) conclude that he is predominantly Australian; I keep urging him to sing English Folk Songs from the Australian Tradition (which I think he'd do bloody well at actually - Henry Lawson poems included!) but he resolutely refuses, partly because he has learnt his 17 Random E. Trads and has no intention of ever learning any more, and partly because of his moronic ideas on human migration. |
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26 Aug 09 - 05:45 AM (#2708791) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: WalkaboutsVerse Again, you are all over the place, S. E.g., when I light-heartedly suggested you take up the English cittern, with your imagined "starling feather," you responded with disgust that I should tell you what to choose - and now I am "moronic" for not giving into your "urging" re. choice of repertoire. There's what we want, and there's the tactics we are prepared to use - we disagree widely on both. And, for what it's worth, defending is becoming too repetitive/tiresome for me to bother here much more. |
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26 Aug 09 - 06:04 AM (#2708802) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: GUEST,Ralphie Blimey SoP You actually know David? I didn't think he was a real person! And David "Defending is becoming too repetitive (sic)/ Tiresome (sic) for me to bother here much more." Wise decision old chap. Quit while you're winning, always the best policy I think. |
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26 Aug 09 - 06:42 AM (#2708820) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Jack Blandiver and now I am "moronic" for not giving into your "urging" re. choice of repertoire. It's your ideas on immigration that are moronic, WAV not you. And you can sing whatever you like - just a shame you don't accept that others may do likewise and feel the need to promote an ideology which amounts to a cultural prohibition. My feeling is that you are ideally placed as an English born person naturalised in Australia to perform from the rich tradition of English Folk Songs in the Australian Tradition. You have the accent, and, like the songs, you are very much a part of both cultures. defending is becoming too repetitive/tiresome for me to bother here much more. You publish such bullshit you should be prepared to defend it. Where's the courage of your convictions? Point is, that even when the gaping factual errors (and downright lies) in your arguments are pointed out, you refuse to address them, or even account for them. Again, this isn't personal, WAV - this is directed at your Published Work. You actually know David? I didn't think he was a real person! He's real enough, Ralphie - and as thoroughly decent a cove as you might ever wish to meet, making many fine contributions to singarounds we've shared over the years. My difficulty is squaring the gentleman he is in real life with the raving fascist ideologue he becomes on-line. |
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26 Aug 09 - 08:05 AM (#2708854) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: GUEST,Ralphie Hey SoB (not going to try and type it...Will SonOfaB***h do? lol!!) I'm sure that David is pleasant enough in real life, and so many of us have tried to engage with him on line....Including the likes of Jim Moray and Eliza Carthy....and many many other real professional musos. I have huge amounts of empathy for those who want to explore the great diversity that is the tradition. (Choose Country here). It's just that David just doesn't get it. Endlessly banging on about obscure instruments...etc etc etc... Take him on one side if you get the chance. Tell him that we don't hate him as a person, but. If he continues in the same vein. he will become a pariah. There are a lot of patient people out here, But that patience is being sorely tested. Please tell him to get a life, and join in with the rest of us, in this wonderful world of music dance and song. Nobody hates WAV. But at least he should listen to advice. It is your mission...should you choose to accept it....!!!! |
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26 Aug 09 - 08:24 AM (#2708867) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: WalkaboutsVerse "raving fascist ideologue" (S) there you go again; you used to repeat "racist" and "xenophobe", but, aware that recently there has been an antifascist thread, you are focusing on "fascist"; that is far dirtier tactic than me asking whether you ever consider trying again to get a degree in some DISCIPLINE. One last time, and I'm off - fascism derives from an authoritarian Italian party opposed to communism; on other occasions, you have criticised me for my opposition to capitalism - in a democratic way. (P.S: if there is a post under "Guest WalkaboutsVerse" folks, it is NOT from me - yes, someone on Mudcat has resorted to that tactic in the past.) |
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26 Aug 09 - 08:38 AM (#2708881) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: GUEST Sorry, you're going WAV. If you want to understand Englishness, try: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vh-wEXvdW8 |
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26 Aug 09 - 09:48 AM (#2708934) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: Jack Blandiver WAV - a Fascist is someone who believes that humanity might only thrive when subjected to the repressive regime of a supreme authority. In all your published writings this is what we see, and that is what I question. A Racist is someone who believes humanity should be segregated by ethnicity and that all immigration / emigration curtailed in fear of cultural and ethnic contamination. In your published writings this is what we see, and that is what I question. These aren't dirty tactics, they are honest criticisms and evaluations of your Published Ideas - which you can only answer by resorting to personal insult. If you say (as you do) that: Folk music IS meant to be local/regional/national. Our forebears were loyal to this when they formed the English Folk Dance and Song Society, as have been contemporary Scots by forming a Degree in Scottish Traditional Music. Further, I'm told several of our earliest folk-clubs strongly encouraged participants to select from their own culture what else am I to think other than here is a man who believes in a supreme dictatorial authority to curtail what he obviously regards as extreme recalcitrance (one of your favourite words) in the UK Folk Scene? Likewise: World-music stalls and stages should be places where folkies of different nationality present different unfused music to each other. An English octogenarian has told me that at school - whilst one or two Scottish dances were learnt - at least 90% of their dancing was English Country Dance. If folkies must test their technique by improvising on/"doing something with" a traditional tune, then, in my opinion, they should begin their performance with a run-through of just the top-line melody – otherwise, there would be no oral-tradition of tunes! Alternatively, they could try the composer or sacred music of their nation, as well as its folk-tunes. As I've said in verse, English culture is taking a hammering and, when people lose their own culture, society suffers. All these statements are as culturally dictatorial as they are inaccurate - they all run contrary to cultural reality; they are your somewhat idiosyncratic interpretations of things you don't really understand turned into quite disturbing absolutes. How else am I meant to understand the author of such odious inhumane bullshit other than as a fascist? You are sold on your own righteousness on things you clearly know nothing about; year in, year out, you repeat the same weary old rhetoric, as life flows on, and culture with it. You've been told how in error you are regarding English Country Dancing; and I'll tell you that 98% of what I do musically is pure improvisation, even in the singing of E. Trads. That's how I do things musically - I improvise, therefore I am. This doesn't effect the oral-tradition, as far as it exists, or ever existed at all, pre, post, or neo-revival. These things aren't written in stone; they are fluid, things change, they move on, the essence of all is the organic process of becoming in which all things exist - folk music included. As for English Culture taking a hammering - this, I fear, is the Big One - the one you've never accounted for other than to point out that England was a more English place 50 years ago... So what's it all about, WAV? How is English Culture taking a hammering? And how are we suffering as a result? |
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26 Aug 09 - 10:31 AM (#2708959) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: GUEST,Ralphie. SoB.. What I find quite creepy is this eternal reference to "E-Trads". What the F*** does he mean by that term? A Song is A Song. A Tune is a Tune. END! As Elizas dad once said, "The only way you can damage the tradition is by not performing it" No restrictions...Anything goes...Hip-Hop, Rap, Dub Reggae, Sweet Innocence...all is included, along with every other national culture that brings such richness to our little island. English Culture taking a hammering?? I don't think so. After 30 years of me banging on about the music we love, we are finally seeing a huge movement of people (kids especially), embracing the whole oevre with laughter and talent. Let WAV sink. He obviously will never get it. He's just wrapped up in his sad little dream world. And we can't change that can we? SoP...Happy to meet you down the line somewhere for a pint. Don't bother bringing your mate! Respect to you Ralphie |
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26 Aug 09 - 12:04 PM (#2709041) Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall From: GUEST,Ralphie Quote from WAV. "P.S: if there is a post under "Guest WalkaboutsVerse" folks, it is NOT from me - yes, someone on Mudcat has resorted to that tactic in the past." And your point being?.....Are we supposed to start caring? My identity has been cloned by the BNP on several occasions now, hence my appearance as a Guest on Mudcat. When will you get the message WAV? Your sweet, but untimately pathetic pontifications about citterns and other stuff is an entry point for some seriously dangerous people. I'd re-install your firewall if I where you. The guys and gals here on Mudcat are not your enemies.. But there are a lot of dangerous and violent people out there. who also share your views...They just do it with knives and guns. You seem like a nice chap with a perspective on life that you believe in. Fine. Keep your bloody head down man. It's scary out there in the real world. |
