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Farewell to/Slan le Mudcat

17 Jul 99 - 06:46 PM (#96306)
Subject: Farewell to/Slán le Mudcat
From: Martin _Ryan

Goodbye my friends. Should you be interested in why, click HERE.

17 Jul 99 - 08:11 PM (#96320)
Subject: RE: Farewell to/Slán le Mudcat
From: LEJ

Goodbye, Martin. You'll be missed.


17 Jul 99 - 08:24 PM (#96321)
Subject: RE: Farewell to/Slán le Mudcat
From: katlaughing


I am sad to see you go. I believe there are more good people here than the abusers. I hope that you will reconsider and join us, again. You've certainly been on here a lot longer than me and I hate to see anyone whose been a part of this phenomenon so long leave because of mean-spirited and partisanship.

Fare well,


17 Jul 99 - 08:28 PM (#96322)
Subject: RE: Farewell to/Slán le Mudcat
From: The Shambles

Sorry to lose you Martin.

17 Jul 99 - 08:51 PM (#96328)
Subject: RE: Farewell to/Slán le Mudcat
From: Joe Offer

Martin, I hope you'll reconsider. You've made a wonderful contribution here, and we'll miss you.
It is a difficult issue to discuss peaceably, since each side believes so strongly that it is right.
-Joe Offer-

17 Jul 99 - 10:53 PM (#96350)
Subject: RE: Farewell to/Slán le Mudcat
From: Barry Finn

Hi Martin, I don't think I've ever given you reason to feel slighted in any way, so please hear my request. As one whose grew up fighting (& watching others around me dying) for a chance to get free of a hell hole, I have always spoken up for those who wasted away & didn't make it. I know no one from my youth most are dead the rest in prison or belong to the walking dead & I hope a few have quitely made good for themselves. So I think I can ask of you if there's ignorance & it's offended you enlighten those of us who don't understand it's a little part of the responsiblity that's owed those who were less fortunate in their struggle to survive. Violence makes vitims of anyone it remotely touches & with instant global communication it won't miss a soul. I don't think there are any here that are out right nasty & enjoy hurting maybe quitly of being insensitve or unaware or naive or impulsive or passionate or opinionated or blindsided or hindsighted or oversensitive or any of the other human faults but there's also alot of soul searching & caring & openmindedness & compassion & forgiveness. I don't know enough of where you're from to express an opinion one way or another & won't without the first hand knowledge anyway, I only deplore violence in any form & care not for causes when children die because of them weither it's perpetuated by a government, a group, a church or an individual. The power of music is a double edged blade, it can be used to bring awareness or to drum up hate it's up to the singer how & what & why to sing. In the U.S. I believe the song "Poor Ellen Smith" has thedistinction of being the only song in the U.S. to be outlawed by a court. It seems that in the rural area where had Ellen lived there were very stong emotions about the events surrounding Ellen's death & the following trial & those emotions ran very high when someone sang the song causing brawls & continuous fighting with no one side ever coming to terms with the other, that being the way with reasoning sometimes the song went to trial & all else faded away the song now it's sung all over & no offense is felt, hopefully time will heal the wounded. You have much to give here Martin as well as gain, hopefully we'll still be hearing from you. Barry

18 Jul 99 - 12:51 AM (#96369)
Subject: RE: Farewell to/Slán le Mudcat
From: katlaughing

Well said, Barry.

18 Jul 99 - 01:08 AM (#96372)
Subject: RE: Farewell to/Slán le Mudcat
From: gargoyle

I am most curious about this "Poor Ellen Smith" do you have additional "academic references?" A citation or two would be most helpful.

18 Jul 99 - 03:32 AM (#96390)
Subject: RE: Farewell to/Slán le Mudcat
From: katlaughing

Take yer pick: DT's Poor Ellen Smith

18 Jul 99 - 04:53 AM (#96398)
Subject: RE: Farewell to/Slán le Mudcat
From: Penny S.

Martin, please stay. If the people who are offended leave, who, ultimately, is left?

In the town where I live is a Victorian memorial to Protestant martyrs of the Tudor period, burned to death. As well as listing their names, and the charges, it includes a passage from Revelations, which I find deeply offensive. In it, and I paraphrase, the martyrs stand before God, praising Him, and asking, "When are you going to punish the people who did this to us?" When I first saw it, the words had nearly worn away, and I had to do a bit of work to interpret it. I went back to my Bible, and confirmed, to my astonishment, that it really said that. But it was worn away, and no-one read it, or knew it was there. Recently, someone donated money to the council for its restoration, so there those words are, back again. But, and this is the point, although someone felt so deeply that they should be there, they are still unread, and no-one takes them seriously. They are like an offensive posting, but in lead in stone, and like those postings here, they have dropped down to the bottom of the consciousness of those who pass them. Eventually that happens here, even to the longest threads. Stay, and help to fill up the forum with the other stuff, with the songs.

If it helps, I often don't recognise partisan slogans, unless they are very, very obvious. I suspect this may apply to others who are not close to the situation.


18 Jul 99 - 06:41 AM (#96418)
Subject: RE: Farewell to/Slán le Mudcat
From: Banjer

Martin, I have never posted to or had any exchanges with you, and when someone says, "I'm leaving" I look on that as their personal decision and don't try to interfere. However, I must say that it seems to me you are taking the 'easy' way out. If enough people that are offended leave, then have they not made the offenders the victors?

I can only say that I am thankful that our country's founders didn't think like you. What would have happened had George Washington listened to those who said to get out of Valley Forge?

18 Jul 99 - 08:43 AM (#96422)
Subject: RE: Farewell to/Slán le Mudcat
From: Jeri

I respect anyone's personal choice to stay or leave, and this is in no way a judgement.

Good folks leave neighborhoods where there's a lot of unpleasantness. Their decision is based on their families, careers, and just how much they can tolerate. But if everyone who finds unpleasantness objectionalble leaves, no one left objects. As a newsgroup reader, I've seen groups assaulted by those who want to argue, call people names and be generally nasty. I've seen quite a few people give up on the newsgroups because of that, until most of the discussions turn into flame wars because few are left who want to be reasonable.

And now, for a bit of drift from the Department of Internet Communications Philosophy...
In my opinion, in internet communication, lack of words is more effective than opposing argument in ending hostilities. Most people (me included) find it extemely difficult not to add their .02, but there's no way faster to end a fight in a thread than to ignore it. Again, this is a personal choice - do you want to contribute to an argument or end it?

18 Jul 99 - 12:25 PM (#96469)
Subject: RE: Farewell to/Slán le Mudcat
From: Margo

Hmmmmmm..........Once again, I don't even know what you're talking about. I seem to miss things. A little slow on the uptake, but when I get it, I get it. What slogan is Martin talking about? In what thread? Was it Wolfgang's use of the word "Republican"?

It seemed to me upon reading the thread Martin linked us to that everyone was quite respectful and trying to be compliant and sensitive to Martin's request. Gargoyle seemed defensive to me which I understand. So what's the big deal, Martin? I've been offended here. I put my .02 in and went on. My choice.


18 Jul 99 - 12:26 PM (#96470)
Subject: RE: Farewell to/Slán le Mudcat
From: Animaterra

Martin, I have kept myself out of discussions that I know little or nothing about, and have often felt that your contributions were thoughtful and heart-felt. Like Jeri I too tend to ignore the flamers but want to encourage people like you. I hope you see this long thread and that it encourages you to stay, but if not, I wish you well.

18 Jul 99 - 01:12 PM (#96476)
Subject: RE: Farewell to/Slán le Mudcat
From: Peter T.

Martin, if you go, I will miss you, and your contributions over the years.
Please reconsider. You are being provoked into abandoning this fragile, mostly decent place. When places like these are abandoned, the vacuum is then filled by people with armalite rifles and explosives, who go by all sorts of names and under all sorts of flags, who shift into the rhetoric of blood, parse out the details of betrayal, and speak most freely of freedom and of life. Their real name is Death.
It is hard to recognise this, to stare down Death in the face, since when we look closely we can sometimes catch a glimpse of ourselves grinning back -- but it is worth doing, in this not very significant place, just a Website after all, but it is a place of more decent people than many, many places, and here can become elsewhere sickeningly fast. Stay.
yours, Peter T.

18 Jul 99 - 03:02 PM (#96513)
Subject: RE: Farewell to/Slán le Mudcat
From: Big Mick

It was my use of the term "Tiocfaidh a/r la/" which first offended Martin. In Irish (Gaelige) it simply means "Our day will come". Bobby Sands, the (IMHO) great Irish patriot who died on hunger strike in 1981, used it to say that the reunification would come. It has become a rallying cry for those of Republican persuasion. Much like "Remember the Alamo" when another group of "terrorists/patriots" used it. I have responded to Martin's leaving HERE.


18 Jul 99 - 10:32 PM (#96676)
Subject: RE: Farewell to/Slán le Mudcat
From: alison


You have contributed greatly to this forum and helped me with lyrics on more occasions than I can remember. I would hate to see you go, but I can understand your reasons.

I am sorry that the flare up in "Armalite" started as I feel it has lead to us losing a good friend.

Martin I hope you reconsider, but if not, it has been great to meet you. Thanks for your help, and dignity, mo chara.



18 Jul 99 - 11:40 PM (#96706)
Subject: RE: Farewell to/Slán le Mudcat
From: bbelle

Martin ... I cannot pretend to understand how the armalite thread made you feel, however, I can say that I am a jew and there have been thread responses that caused me to shake my head in sadness and the wolfgang heil thing disgusts me. Most of the Mudcat community are more concerned with injustice and man's inhumanity to humanity than than to causing an individual to feel attacked.

I respect your decision to leave the Mudcat Forum, but, like the suicidal person who calls to tell someone they are going to commit suicide, I think your farewell is a plea to those who offended you to think a bit.

Sometimes it's difficult not to drop in to a thread, even though you know it's probably something you're going to find offensive. When that happens to me, I just click on the back button. I hope you will stick around. Opinions, however diverse, are needed. Of course, what is not needed, and which is sometimes offered under the cloak of opinion, is racism, vitriolic statements, general nastiness, etc. ... moonchild

19 Jul 99 - 12:35 AM (#96724)
Subject: RE: Farewell to/Slán le Mudcat
From: Mudjack

Seems we are in the "I Quit, So Long" mode and see how many will beg and plead your return. Martin, just re consider for the sake of standing up for what you think and hang in there. Don't worry about the flack. You owe it only to yourself and no one else, likewise with the decission to leave. It's on you and do whats best for Martin.

19 Jul 99 - 07:49 AM (#96797)
Subject: RE: Farewell to/Slán le Mudcat
From: Roger in Baltimore

Gee, I feel like Bill D. last week. You go away for a few days and look what happens.

I do not think one can live one's life fully without being offensive. To pick a path that offends no one means to pick a murky, obscure road that really does not exist. Sometimes we know that what we are about to say or do will offend some people (perhaps a great number of people), but we say it because it speaks from the depth of our hearts (see my postings on "gun" threads). Sometimes we speak what we feel and are unaware that we are about to offend someone (for to know would be to read the minds of everyone, fat chance). And finally, we can offend others with the intention of malice.

I believe all three types of offensive statements have occurred here on the 'Cat. The one type I would argue to eliminate is the malicious one.

If malicious posters and Martin cannot exist side-by-side in this one Forum, then I would choose Martin over the malicious person.

I would encourage all of us to seek "common ground", to honor those ways in which we are similar. There is a music and arts festival in my home town that seeks just that. CLICK HERE.

I also want to speak about evil. It exists in the world and therefore there are evil people, who are caught up in evil. When I feel "evil" has been done, I have posted a Personal Message to the offender, speaking my mind. Sometimes I have gotten no response. Other times I have gotten posts that convince me that my judgment was wrong. I believe some have responded to my feedback and changed their approach.

Evil does not shrink away when ignored. It will wither in the light. To those concerned that Martin has been driven away, I suggest they speak directly to those they feel have done the driving.

I, too, would welcome you back Martin. I am sorry to see you go.

Roger in Baltimore