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08 Sep 09 - 11:43 AM (#2718956) Subject: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune2 Lawsuits From: SINSULL http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/111280 Will your children be immunized? There is so much fear mongering going on I don't know what to believe. SINS |
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08 Sep 09 - 12:23 PM (#2718997) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune2 Lawsuits From: Rapparee If I had them, yes. The chances are too low to bother about. I will be immunized, since everyone says that there is nothing more that can happen to my mind. |
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08 Sep 09 - 03:35 PM (#2719152) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune2 Lawsuits From: Q (Frank Staplin) We are old folks- we will certainly take them. |
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08 Sep 09 - 05:04 PM (#2719233) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune2 Lawsuits From: Little Hawk Snake oil. Only more dangerous. And MUCH more profitable for those who market it. I have never in my life had a flu shot. Never. And I never will. The results of this decision to manage my own health instead of leaving it to the snake oil salesmen have been excellent so far, so I will maintain that approach. The nonexistant Swine Flu pandemic of 1976, advertised massively by the same kind of scare propaganda that Big Pharma is using right now resulted in 40 million Americans being vaccinated...and a significant number of them got quite sick from those vaccinations, and a significant number of those people died...from severe reactions to the vaccine. Virtually NO ONE died in 1976 from the Swine Flu itself. The vaccine was the primary killer, not the flu. |
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08 Sep 09 - 07:50 PM (#2719379) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune2 Lawsuits From: Rapparee 22 million were vaccinated, and a number got GBS. About 40 people died, if I remember -- the first three or four were elderly people who died within hours of receiving the vaccine, the media screamed, it turned out that they did NOT die from the vaccine, but by then it was way too late. I'm actually way too old (statistically) to get this outbreak, but I'll get the shots anyway. I also drive with my lights on during the day, don't tug on Superman's cape.... |
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08 Sep 09 - 07:54 PM (#2719382) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune2 Lawsuits From: Peace I want to know if the people who indemnified the manufacturers are getting the shots. I'm with LH on this. NO, thank you. |
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08 Sep 09 - 08:25 PM (#2719406) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune2 Lawsuits From: Bill D hmmm.. looks like this one has polarized the masses. I dunno yet...I get the regular flu shot each year, but this one seems kinda experimental. |
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08 Sep 09 - 08:31 PM (#2719410) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune2 Lawsuits From: Q (Frank Staplin) I follow my physicians recommendations; what the masses think or don't think doesn't matter. |
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08 Sep 09 - 08:35 PM (#2719414) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune2 Lawsuits From: GUEST,Dani I'm exactly on the other side of the fence. I've NEVER had a flu shot, figuring it was a racket, and hey, what's the diff if I get sick for a few days? However... I trust the hell out of my doctor, and he said to get it, so I probably will. Dani |
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08 Sep 09 - 08:59 PM (#2719426) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune2 Lawsuits From: Amos I've never taken flu immunization. Mostly my immune system handles things. Th eone time I thought I had the flu it turned out to be pneumonia from cutting ceramic tile without a breather (a stupidity I regret, but not a flu). If I get a bout of flu, I figure it will lose and make my immune system stronger for it. That's been my experience so far. I do listen carefully to medical advice on other matters, though. But I have to feel comfortable in my own skin about it. A |
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08 Sep 09 - 09:31 PM (#2719450) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune2 Lawsuits From: bobad Vaccines are intended to protect the person receiving them and also to protect others with whom that person may come into contact with. Just because you might be at low risk of severe disease the risk status of others you come into contact with must also be taken into consideration. When I had a job that took me into old folks' homes, I took the flu vaccine more out of consideration for them than to myself. Sometimes one must assume some risk in order to benefit others. |
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08 Sep 09 - 10:06 PM (#2719464) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune2 Lawsuits From: Rapparee And I work in a PUBLIC library. |
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08 Sep 09 - 10:06 PM (#2719465) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune2 Lawsuits From: Rapparee Although, given my age, I probably will not be in the first-line group. |
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09 Sep 09 - 11:44 AM (#2719848) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune2 Lawsuits From: Little Hawk If you trust your physician, then of course you will tend to follow his or her advice quite closely. I can understand that. However, the advice of the physician I trust (based on past experience) is not to take the vaccine. Yes, one finds differences of opinion among physicians too. More importantly, however, my own good sense based on a lifetime of practical experience also tells me not to take the vaccine, not to take any vaccine, but to let my own immune system build up its antibodies naturally through exposure to common pathogens and its own defensive reactions to that exposure...which is what my immune system is there for in the first place. It is not necessary to inject toxic substances directly into my bloodstream in order to trigger an immune system response to a threat. That's sort of like opening a door with a sledgehammer when you already have the key, in my opinion. The door suffers unnecessary damage, and that can be costly. |
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09 Sep 09 - 11:57 AM (#2719859) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune2 Lawsuits From: t.jack I really think it is b.s.there are a lot of people to get rich off this one..Also it is a diversion tactic for more important things??i`m still working on that one, it is presently being brewed in the back rooms.150,000 people died in U.S.of perscribed drugs last year and the big pharma or doctors have not been held accountable,only recently i heard that in Menisota it is law by force to have this vacine.Fear motivates people to spend and take sides..the tactics of most marketing. i often woundered how many people died of marajuna od..they point out the war on drugs??wake up it is at your local DRUG STORE dressed in white!!!people here in Canada are lined up for blocks every morning to get their fix on methadon after being PERSCRIBED oxcycotin as a pain killer by the DOCTOR that got his kickback from PHYZER drug manafacturer that just got a 2.4 billion dollar fine for just that..man i get pissed off.. |
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09 Sep 09 - 12:02 PM (#2719864) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune2 Lawsuits From: Jeri If they give you flu shots IV, you've got worse problems than a poke in the immune system. I'm going to get the shot because I find a response to a vaccine preferable to developing immunity from actually getting the flu. I see the flu as the sledge hammer. My immune system gets its workout from colds. I don't need to get something that might kill me or whomever I spread it to. Yes, my former job in public health including supervising an immunization clinic and their flu vaccination program makes me feel pretty good about getting the shot. |
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09 Sep 09 - 12:14 PM (#2719874) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune2 Lawsuits From: bobad Right Jeri, I think a lot of the fear and apprehension regarding vaccination stems from a lack of understanding of the mechanism of the immune system. |
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09 Sep 09 - 12:17 PM (#2719877) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune2 Lawsuits From: Acorn4 If you'd trusted your physician a hundred or so years ago, they would have told you that the application of leeches was the universal remedy. |
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09 Sep 09 - 12:48 PM (#2719907) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune2 Lawsuits From: jeffp In 1909? |
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09 Sep 09 - 01:35 PM (#2719957) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune2 Lawsuits From: Bee-dubya-ell [IRONY ON] I'm not going to get the vaccine because there are some risks involved. But I expect everybody else to get it so I won't catch the flu from them. I don't want to get sick, you know. [IRONY OFF] |
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09 Sep 09 - 01:37 PM (#2719960) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune2 Lawsuits From: Q (Frank Staplin) Leeches are back, I read somewhere. |
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09 Sep 09 - 01:42 PM (#2719966) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune2 Lawsuits From: pdq Found mostly in the government. |
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09 Sep 09 - 01:49 PM (#2719969) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune2 Lawsuits From: jeffp Leeches are used in reattachment surgeries to prevent excess fluid buildup. |
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09 Sep 09 - 02:46 PM (#2720012) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune2 Lawsuits From: Bill D "If I get a bout of flu, I figure it will lose and make my immune system stronger for it. " "...let my own immune system build up its antibodies naturally through exposure to common pathogens and its own defensive reactions to that exposure." The problem is, the standard Asian flu that comes around each Winter is not the same each year. It evolves and changes, and must be incubated and new vaccine produced. I AM now at the age where a serious bout of flu could be dangerous....and the annual shot is included as part of my HMO plan, so I am paying nothing extra. This swine flu seems to NOT hit the elderly as hard, so I may pass on it. |
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09 Sep 09 - 03:27 PM (#2720039) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune2 Lawsuits From: Little Hawk Of course leeches are back. ;-) That's exactly my point. The present day commonly accepted "leeches" are your vaccines and various other invasive drugs, radiation, and chemotherapy (in my opinion). People are being fooled now much the same way they were in the time when leeches were prescribed for everything...but the prescription has changed, that's all. Wait and see if I'm right, but you'll probably have to wait about a century...(reincarnate in other words...)and then you'll find yourself in a new society where they are exclaiming in horror and disbelief over the stupidity of OUR present day conventional abuses that are foisted on people now by professional medicine for one purpose: to make a lot of money for someone. |
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09 Sep 09 - 04:10 PM (#2720071) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune2 Lawsuits From: Rapparee So the vaccines for polio, smallpox, yellow fever, tetanus, typhoid, cholera, and others have all been ways for drug companies to make money? |
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09 Sep 09 - 04:48 PM (#2720092) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune to Lawsuits From: Little Hawk I'm not speaking in "all or nothing" terms, Rapaire. I'n sure that some drugs are genuinely useful and beneficial. Some vaccinations may well be genuinely useful and beneficial. I suspect, however, that many present day drugs and vaccines and forms of conventional treatment are not genuinely useful at all...and are downright harmful. But they ALL make money for someone, don't they? Therefore they are aggressively advertised in print, on radio, and on TV and the Internet...and let the buyer beware! However, here's my key point. I wish to live in a society where we are EACH free to make our own choices about what sort of treatment we opt for. If you wish to take a flu shot, then I think you have every right to, and I won't stand in your way. If I wish not to take a flu shot, then I expect to also be free to make that decision without some government or medical association or law overriding my decision in that regard and penalizing me for it. Agreed? Let's live in a society where we are all legally free to decide whether or not to avail ourselves of various specific forms of medical treatment...or to opt for some other form of medical treatment...or to opt for some form of self-treatment (meaning dietary change, exercise, etc)... whichever approach we find suitable. That's freedom. I favor individual freedom and freedom of choice. |
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09 Sep 09 - 05:14 PM (#2720106) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune to Lawsuits From: McGrath of Harlow Last time that I had flu wasn't pleasant at all. So I book in to get my free annual flu shot for oldies the first day it's available. And I encourage everyone else to do the same. (I see I had a similar disagreement with Little Hawk in a previous thread years back, and I posted a song about the dreaded bug. (By which I mean the flu bug, of course.) |
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09 Sep 09 - 05:17 PM (#2720112) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune to Lawsuits From: Rapparee Oh, I quite agree. But should you also be free to infect others? I am free to dump toxic waste in my neighbor's yard, but I also have to accept the consequences of my choice, both from the law AND from the results of my action to his family and other families who might be affected. |
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04 Oct 09 - 06:32 PM (#2738350) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune to Lawsuits From: bobad You CANNOT get the flu from a flu vaccine. Many and large studies have found NO association between thiomersol in vaccines and autism. The one study in The Lancet which claimed an association has been discredited and was subsequently withdrawn. There is MORE mercury in a can of tuna than what you get from a vaccine shot which has thiomersol as a preservative. Just a few facts to help people make an informed decision. |
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04 Oct 09 - 06:43 PM (#2738363) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune to Lawsuits From: Little Hawk I never implied that you can get the flu from a flu vaccination. I implied that your health can suffer significant damage from a flu vaccination. Why? Because it's toxic, that's why. It poisons your system. But if you want one...get one...I won't interfere with your freedom to do so, I assure you. As for not posing a (supposed) risk to other people by not getting vaccinated for the flu myself...I feel that I've already fully paid my dues in that respect by spending an entire life NOT smoking, therefore exposing no one to the health risks of second hand smoke, and not driving drunk, and not getting addicted to any dangerous drugs, and a variety of other good lifestyle choices like that. So can you make me feel guilty about not taking flu shots, because you are worried I might possibly infect you? No. ;-) I don't feel the least bit guilty about it. I have lived a pretty sensible life when it comes to maintaining my own health and that of those around me. |
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04 Oct 09 - 07:16 PM (#2738385) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune to Lawsuits From: bobad I don't know why you think my post was directed at you but let me assure you that it was not. As for your assertion that ".... it's toxic, that's why. It poisons your system." do you have a credible reference for that? |
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04 Oct 09 - 07:24 PM (#2738390) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune to Lawsuits From: Q (Frank Staplin) Littlehawk would constitute a danger to people with whom he comes in contact, if he happens to catch it. |
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04 Oct 09 - 07:26 PM (#2738393) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune to Lawsuits From: CarolC I used to get flu shots every year until I found out they have mercury in them. I have way too much mercury in my body already. I read not too long ago that some researchers are suspecting a correlation between people who get flu shots every year and an increase in the incidence of alzheimers. They're saying that that people who get flu shots every year appear to be more prone to developing alzheimers. |
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04 Oct 09 - 07:56 PM (#2738402) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune to Lawsuits From: Q (Frank Staplin) The Institute of Medicine, one of the United States National Academies, provides advice to the U. S. Government and its agencies. A review by that body of thimerosal, the preservative containing mercury, found no evidence that it contributed to autism, attention deficit disorder or Alzheimers disease. The warning comes from a University of Calgary study of mercury neurological damage. The study is preliminary and in part controversial. The Influenza health consultant says that studies have shown the safety of the shots and that benefits far outweigh any potential risks. A flu shot contains 0.01% of thimerosal; the actual amount of mercury is a very small fraction of that. http://www.rense.com/general59/shotss.htm |
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04 Oct 09 - 08:53 PM (#2738441) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune to Lawsuits From: Little Hawk With this sort of thing, Q, it all depends on whose "authoritative" testimony one chooses to read. And people usually read the stuff that agrees with the opinion they already favor. I've been reading books about the considerable dangers of various vacinnations for at least the last 30 years, but I doubt they're on your favorite reading list, nor would you be inclined to seek them out. Likewise, I'm quite disinclined to seek out the official material dispensed by the Institute of Medicine which you quote, and other such authorities who are tied in with the people you put your trust in who I gather are the mainstream medical authorities such as the AMA. I don't trust them. I think they're in thrall to huge profit-based interests and that much of what they do is quackery. You do trust them. I trust other people whom you would probably not trust because you'd consider them to be "quacks" or radicals of some kind. They all have much to say, and they disagree radically with each other. Each of us has decided which "authoritative" voices we can trust, and our choices are divergent. Therefore we will, I expect, always disagree about it. ;-) And that's okay, as far as I'm concerned. You'll get vaccinations. I won't. And that's okay too, as far as I'm concerned, because your business is yours and mine is mine. And there's not a darned thing either of us can do to change the other's opinions, and I know it. Nor will either of us ever prove the other to be "wrong". I don't post my opinions to change anyone's mind, I just post them because, like most people, I enjoy expressing myself in print now and then on Mudcat, and that's all there is to it. I say what I think is true. You say what you think is true. We've both expressed ourselves, and that's fine. A democracy permits people of divergent opinion to express themselves. A democracy does not force everyone to get a vaccination, and that is what concerns me. I want to keep living in a democracy, not be "protected" by some sort of authoritarian medical system that tells me I or my child MUST be vaccinated. *** Regarding my statement that a vaccination is toxic and it poisons your system, that can easily be determined by simple observation. Note what happens when you get a vaccination. Your body generally reacts to the vaccination with swelling, redness, soreness, and other signs of strong bodily reactions to toxicity in the place where you were vaccinated. I remember how I reacted to vaccinations when I was a child. It would sometimes make my whole upper arm sore for a few days, and it sometimes left a scar for life. Sometimes it makes people feel quite ill. Occasionally it kills them. I call that an obvious case of a toxic substance put in the blood that poisons your system. Since it doesn't poison most people enough to actually kill them, however, most people take it for granted and figure that "big daddy" in the white coat knows best. Well, they used to take various other stuff for granted too which we now consider quite harmful (like the "big daddies" of the day bleeding people for every darned ailment under the sun...once an honored practice of mainstream medicine and supported by the authorities of the time, but now discredited). They were wrong then. They may very well be wrong now. You can do internet searches to find plenty of stuff to back up either your or my opinion. So have fun...and look up the stuff you agree with. I'll have fun looking up the stuff I agree with, and both of us will remain firmly confident in our views, no doubt. As long as we both still have the free choice to either get or not get the vacinnation, I don't care. |
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04 Oct 09 - 08:59 PM (#2738449) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune to Lawsuits From: Peace Trust in doctors: some of them graduated in the bottom 2% of their classes. |
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04 Oct 09 - 09:02 PM (#2738451) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune to Lawsuits From: Q (Frank Staplin) What class did you graduate in? |
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04 Oct 09 - 09:05 PM (#2738452) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune to Lawsuits From: Little Hawk Well, you have your medical doctors...who vary from the excellent to the downright incompetent or even criminal.... And you have your naturopaths and alternative healers...who vary from the excellent to the downright incompetent or even criminal.... That means you have to judge any specific medical practitioner on his own qualities rather than on the piece of paper he has framed on the wall. The personal testimonials of people you actually know who've gone to the doctor or naturopath in question can often be your best initial source of information...and then you must rely on your own direct observations of the practitioner. Point being, I judge them all as unique individuals, I don't judge them on the basis of the diploma they graduated with, or the title the system has conferred upon them. |
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04 Oct 09 - 09:22 PM (#2738462) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune to Lawsuits From: Peace Why would that matter, Q? I'm not a doctor telling you to have a flu shot. You're gonna do what you're gonna do. BTW, I messaged you the answer. |
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04 Oct 09 - 09:47 PM (#2738490) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune to Lawsuits From: bobad Any claims made about the effects of a substance on a body are readily verifiable, hence all claims made about the efficacy or toxicity of an intervention are based on studies that have been duplicated and put to the scrutiny of experts in the field. The data obtained is available to anyone who cares to scrutinize it. The conclusions drawn from the data are not opinions, they are based on observable, measurable and duplicatable studies. As for the statement "Note what happens when you get a vaccination. Your body generally reacts to the vaccination with swelling, redness, soreness, and other signs of strong bodily reactions to toxicity in the place where you were vaccinated." The signs you claim to be evidence of toxicity are signs of the efficacy of the vaccination. This is, in fact, evidence that the body's immune system is functioning as it is supposed to and is mounting an immune response to the antigen being presented which will result in the production of protective antibodies against that substance. |
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05 Oct 09 - 01:14 AM (#2738570) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune to Lawsuits From: M.Ted I hope that you remembered to get both the seasonal flu shot and the H1N1 shot, because neither prevents the other. And if you didn't, it's probably too late, because in a lot of places, flu has already exceeded its peak--which usually comes in February--this due to the H1N1. As for myself,the shot, which isn't available here yet, will be too little too late, since I am just getting over the flu now-- It's too late at nite for me to post links to my amazing facts, but I am sure someone can-- |
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05 Oct 09 - 10:38 AM (#2738830) Subject: RE: BS: Vaccine Manufacturers Immune to Lawsuits From: Uncle_DaveO I get the regular flu shot each year, but this one seems kinda experimental. No, it's not experimental. It's produced for actual general use. Of course that's not what you meant, Bill. If I understand you, you were implying that it had been put together hurriedly, perhaps carelessly, on a by-guess-and-by-golly basis. Or at least with the real intention of doing it for research (experimental). Actually, it's made by the same techniques, and from the same materials as the seasonal flu shot. "What's the difference, then?" I can almost hear you say. Every year the seasonal flu shot is modified to defend against particular strains (5 of them, if I remember correctly) which are expected to be particularly prevalent that year. This is called "strain change". The H1N1 vaccine is just another strain change, produced in the same manner, from the same materials, as the seasonal flu shot. "Why not include H1N1 in this year's seasonal vaccine?" you might ask. They already had this year's seasonal flu vaccine well along in production, so couldn't at the last moment include this H1N1 in the cocktail, so had to produce a "special edition", but that's not an experimental product. Tomorrow morning I'm going to my doctor's office to take advantage of one of his seasonal flu shot days. I happen to be almost 79, and the H1N1 is not being recommended for old farts like me, as I understand it. When it becomes readily available I'll check with my Doc, but I don't expect he'll tell me to take it. I would if he did. Dave Oesterreich |