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19 Jul 99 - 02:52 PM (#96955) Subject: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: bbc Unless you've been away or had your head stuck in the sand, you've probably noticed an unusual amount of nastiness in the postings in the past few days. Some have gone so far as to advocate deleting various posts or threads. We do have those in our group who have that ability--a magic button which can be used to edit/delete. Although it isn't up to us whether they use it or not or how they use it, I'd be interested in some thoughts on the subject. BTW, I suspect those w/ the power would prefer to *not* use it. Censorship is highly subjective. How does one determine what/who to censor & once one starts, how far to go? An associated idea was that of throwing out "nasty" members. Here're my thoughts. What are yours? Censorship is not something I want to get involved w/. I value the free & easy exchange of ideas we have at Mudcat & I would hate to see it inhibited. There remains the issue of nasty postings & the hurt they cause. I think we need to try to regulate our own behavior, so as to address issues, rather than persons. When we feel that others have crossed the line of acceptability, we owe it to them to try to encourage them, personally & privately, to be more friendly. If they persist in unkind behavior, perhaps ostracism is our best response. I'm not sure on that one. I guess it's hard for me to understand someone deliberately choosing to be hurtful, once it is brought to that person's attention. We all have our ups & downs emotionally & times when we fail to express ourselves as we had intended to. On the Internet, we lack the clues that tone & facial expression give us to help interpret others. The written word can certainly hurt. And, when you have something in print, it's hard to forget. On the subject of booting out members, I can't say I'm for it. We all go through stages in our lives. I would hope that a person wouldn't stay w/ the goal of being hurtful. At the risk of sounding just too-too something, I feel that we have the opportunity in this group to help each other along the path toward being better human beings in various ways. It seems a shame to waste that potential. best to all, bbc |
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19 Jul 99 - 03:11 PM (#96959) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Jeri I'm against anything except self-censorship. I don't think we should boot people out, but if someone were to do nothing but snipe at other members, advertize, or post messages to incite, (and I feel this is a very remote possibility) I could change my mind. If it's someone in our community who's just being a pain...well if this were real life, we'd just tell him to knock it off and ignore future inappropriate comments. I don't think any human is 100% bad, and we have an opportunity to encourage the good. If we don't do that, we lose. |
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19 Jul 99 - 03:15 PM (#96961) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Bert Well here's my two pennuth I don't think we need censorship here. If anyone desn't like a posting they can just ignore it. I think we are seeing just a little over reaction where the best response would have been none at all. It isn't a good idea to mention people by name unless it is a positive or humorous comment. After all we don't want to get "Mud Catty" The sooner it's ignored the sooner it will go away. Bert. |
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19 Jul 99 - 03:19 PM (#96962) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: LEJ Just as our society is a free one, at least here in the US- my fondest wishes for all other Mudcatters- the society at Mudcat is and should be a free one. I am not sure what the fretting is about. Is it because Gargoyle made some nasty and prejudiced remarks? He has freedom of speech. Is it because some of us defined his remarks as nasty and prejudiced? That is our prerogative, and some would say our duty. I don't agree with the creation of threads attacking or ridiculing any individual, but I defend our right to respond honestly to anyone's statement, or to ignore them as our consciences dictate. Is it because of the IRA/Loyalist contentions in the Armalite thread? Dissension should be welcomed as a means of airing views, defining our own philosophies, and, yes, even learning from one another. I do not agree, however, with those who would try to control the discourse, and then leave if they cannot. I like this forum because we can say what we think and feel, and fortunateley those thoughts and feelings are by-in-large positive and empathetic. But would we surrender our honest discourse to some overarching rule that we be nice to each other at all costs? No. Should we ban those who make remarks that some of us find offensive? If Gargoyle had been banned, I would never have been able to read his "taxi driver" monologue on the True Detective thread, a dark but extremely effective bit of writing. Mudcat, like the real world, may contain some instances of strife and disagreement, but I would never trade it for Disneyland. LEJ |
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19 Jul 99 - 03:22 PM (#96963) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: annamill NO! NO! NO! I wish I knew how to make that NO bigger! Censorship, this is an old age question. One that formulates one of the basis points of this country. Like Animal Farm. who determines what goes and what stays. and who changes it during the night when no one sees. The very, very best censorship is where no acknowledgement at all is given to the source, especially negative acknowledgement. Like a flasher, that's exactly what turns them on. Like mary, mary little lamb, leave them alone and they'll go home, waggin their own tails. or however it goes. This is my opinion. Love, annaP |
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19 Jul 99 - 03:36 PM (#96967) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Fadac No on censorship. That's the thing about free speech. Sooner or later sombody is going to say somthing that you don't like.
Some would like to censor the internet. They claim all sorts of reasons, bombs, kids, porn, etc. But who is the censor? Who sets the morals? Me? Better hope not.
The best way to get rid of a problem, is to ignore it. Usualy a problem is just trying to get noticed. Even when I have been the target of some pointed comments. First I got a bit upset. But refuesed to drop to that level.
So if someone gets a bit out of hand. Feel sorry for them, there mother, must buy them funny clothes.
So I say NO on censorship.
-Fadac |
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19 Jul 99 - 03:50 PM (#96974) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Peter T. As I said in another thread, just trying to articulate my sense of what has gone on since the beginning, and has worked well up to this point: there has been an informal rule to eliminate (or maybe ignore) advertising that is not for or by somebody here, because the site is being turned into a billboard, when it is a discussion forum. The same is true about political propaganda that is just posted to shout at people. Shouting down is the first draft of shooting down. I personally wish that at the very least the "Laughing at Gargoyle" thread title should be changed: I appreciate that Dai has apologised for it, but I hate it, and what it will do to this site if this sort of thing goes on. I don't see why he shouldn't be able to appeal to Joe or whomever to change that at least. If somebody started making threatening remarks or obscene comments about people on this place, whoever they were, I would personally support having these remarks eliminated. There are other much worse things that that that I assume are being kept off this site (though no one has, nor do they need I think) to articulate what they are. Quasi-public space is always subject to this problem: it is always having to defend itself, keep itself open without being destroyed: that is why people get sick of it, and go and hide in private enclaves. Meanwhile the streets are left to die. yours, Peter T. |
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19 Jul 99 - 04:40 PM (#96994) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: The Shambles No. For it is nor needed, if we cannot do it ourselves, then the Forum ceases to be a Forum. Peter T said. "There are other much worse things that that that I assume are being kept off this site (though no one has, nor do they need I think) to articulate what they are." At the risk of sounding completly paranoid, are there such things? I don't need to know WHAT they are, I would just like to know if there are such things? Max???? |
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19 Jul 99 - 05:02 PM (#97006) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Peter T. Well, since I believe strongly about this, let me reluctantly point out, and I mean reluctantly, for reasons that will become obvious, that although this site looks pretty robust, it would actually be easy to wreck it, if we did not have some rules that are implied. It would be very possible to sabotage this site with obscene thread titles and threatening titles containing people's names within the space of half an hour, just by posting and reposting. This could go on indefinitely, without legal recourse. People would just get disgusted and leave. I have seen this happen elsewhere. I cannot imagine the owner of this site putting up with it (if you look in the upper right hand corner of this site you will see the word "magazine"). It is an owned site, managed with exemplary style: it is only a free space as long as we play by certain assumptions, most of them dependent on our assessment of the decency of those who run the site for us. What is being kept off this site? I don't know. Maybe the owners of this site have been lucky. I ran an environmental site for a year which was plagued with "contributions" to discussions "advocating" hard core pornography, on line virtual sex, fake invitations to discussion groups to discuss the merits of "art" photographing children, and so on. You can lose your innocence about free forums pretty fast that way. yours, Peter T. |
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19 Jul 99 - 05:08 PM (#97011) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Doctor John Three questions to ask about censorship:- 1. Who guards the guards? 2. Why am I corrupted by obscenity and not the censors? 3. Should the tolerant tolerate intolerance? Dr John |
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19 Jul 99 - 05:12 PM (#97014) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: as_a-mauve@hotmail.com An opinion, freely expressed, even with a bit of the profane is never an issue.
However, rude and scurrulious postings have no place here (or anywhere)... delete them at will, they're nothing more than graffitti. To do anything else would be a waste of bandwidth -- band width to be used for the nonsense *I* wnat to post. |
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19 Jul 99 - 05:50 PM (#97031) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Fadac Perhaps some rules posted, or a FAQ of what is and is not acceptable on Mudcat. Then if someone has a problem, they can request a rule change. A simple one, "Don't take anything here personly." Then "Don't get personel". That would allow one to express their opinion without saying XXXXX is a idiot. Even if XXXXXX IS an idiot. My opnion, is that there are some people that for some reason or other, are convinced that no mater what is said, they think that it is about THEM! Augh! Folks with that big of ego (or conceat (sp?)) If one is that sensitive, or thin skined, perhaps they should go to the Barny Dinasor web page and sing, "I love you, You love me..." (gack!) -Fadac |
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19 Jul 99 - 05:51 PM (#97032) Subject: I'm against censorship From: Joe Offer Well, I suppose that there are messages that those of us with "delete" buttons delete as a matter of course. I don't think that's censorship - it's just tidying up. The only other messages I have deleted are the ones that were direct, personal attacks on Mudcatters, and I think I have deleted only two of those in the last couple of years. The ones that give us problems are the ones that have responses. How can I justify deleting an objectionable message if there is a string of responses to that message? I can certainly sympathize with the outrage people had expressed at a couple of the messages posted over the last few days, but all that outrage doesn't do a whole heck of a lot of good. I know it's justified, but it really has been pathetic. The very best thing you can do to an objectionable post is ignore it. Just act as if the poster were invisible. Obnoxious people feed on the responses people give them - don't respond, and they're likely to stop being obnoxious. The only people who hold official positions at the Mudcat Cafe are Max, our host; and Dick and Susan, the curators of the Digital Tradition. The rest of us are the guests of these gracious hosts. I haven't seen Dick, Susan, or Max make any move to censor anything here. If they don't censor, then nobody should. Max gave a few of us "edit" buttons and told us to use them with good judgment. I think we've tried to do that, perhaps erring on the side of freedom of discussion, but I think that's good. The best censorship is self-censorship. If somebody posts something objectionable, ignore it. If it's a forum message that really might cause harm, then that's another matter - send a provate message to Dick, Susan, Max, or me or whoever the other unidentified button-holders are, and we'll take care of it if it can be done. If it's a matter of personal messages that are threatening or otherwise troublesome, contact Max directly. Now, can we please get back to talking about music? We have a Dock Boggs song transcription that is in serious need of help (click here). I worked really hard to transcribe all eleventy-seven verses of Babes in the Wood (click) - it's a great story. In the "Babes" thread, an anonymous person we all know has issued a challenge, aksing that somebody transcribe 54 verses of "The Turkey Factor." Let's get back to doing what we do best - music. -Joe Offer- |
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19 Jul 99 - 06:29 PM (#97041) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Chet W. No. Chet |
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19 Jul 99 - 06:47 PM (#97048) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: bbc Good message, Joe. Thanks very much for your input. I needed to hear it. bbc |
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19 Jul 99 - 06:54 PM (#97051) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Roger in Baltimore I have been on the Mudcat for a year and a half. Occasionally, discussions have gotten out of hand and someone wants to make "rules". I am hardly a libertarian, but I do think we have too many rules in this world and our goal should be fewer rules not more. Whenever "rules" come up I suggest that everyone look long and hard at how necessary the "rules" are. Often, "rules" are a substitute for simple human contact. We make the "rules" and feel we have dealt with the problem. That is not the answer. Some confrontation, on a private level may be more intimate and more helpful. Roger in Baltimore |
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19 Jul 99 - 07:00 PM (#97054) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Helen Chet, I hope/assume that you were saying "no" to censorship and not "no" to Joe's suggestion to getting back to talking about music. *BG* Helen |
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19 Jul 99 - 07:15 PM (#97062) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Banjer NO to censorship..If we cannot control ourselves without having to resort to the use of censorship then this forum becomes useless..... |
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19 Jul 99 - 07:24 PM (#97065) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: John in Brisbane I believe that this is the first time in two years that I've contributed to this type of thread - and I intend to never do it again. But I believe it is my right to ask if there is a formal goal/mission stetement/charter for this forum. Once I know this I can then examine my own motivation, my contributions or lack thereof. I attempt to provide feedback to others in this forum in other than an encouraging fashion, but would prefer to allow others to provide their own personal assessment. If I find that the charter doesn't suit me I'll move on to other aspects of my life.
Best regards, John |
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19 Jul 99 - 08:13 PM (#97087) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: DougR No censorship please. DougR |
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19 Jul 99 - 08:18 PM (#97089) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: gargoyle YES!!!
MC has lost its focus
Make a RATIO - say 6 to 1......
For every six BS posts a person makes there must be at least one legitimate - folk song, posting of lyrics, or clarification, or question or anything else relevant to the thread.
All this women's gossip/hugs/and poor-me's is as sick as those who rattle their waggin' tongues during a musical performance; they were invited by friends, they liked the music, but they prattle on and on because they don't have a clue.
(Bet most of they are AOLers with MACs) |
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19 Jul 99 - 09:42 PM (#97115) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: katlaughing Can't stand AOL or MACS, m'self. FADAC: Regarding any kind of FAQ's or etiquette rules, this is a paraphrase of one on another favourite site of mine, maybe something like this would help? Forthright expression of conflicting views is liable to give rise to heated arguments and lead to inter-personal antagonisms which work against mutual co-operation for the common good. In this moderated cyber village of individuals interacting through their emotionless computers, strict constraints on subject range are not necessary. Therefore we can engage in rational consideration of 'sensitive' subjects in an endeavour to gain a deeper insight into their nature and discover why they arouse such passions. With that in mind, no topics are barred from this site. However, all contributions will be edited to ensure ordinary civility and respect for opinions which differ from one's own. |
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19 Jul 99 - 10:24 PM (#97132) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Jeri Kat, I object to the "all contributions will be edited" (censorship) unless you mean the contributions will be edited by the individual who will implement submission. Joe, I didn't know why I didn't see a lot of junk mail here - now I do. Thanks! |
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19 Jul 99 - 10:28 PM (#97133) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Margo NO to cencorship. YES to ignore-it-ship Gargoyle: I think it would be impossible to count and keep track of how many BS threads there are as opposed to Music threads. What exactly do you mean by "the Mudcat has lost it's focus"? Compared to when you first arrived? When was that? How about you all who've been here for a couple of years? I think it would be very interesting to hear their account of what the forum was like when they first arrived, and how it has changed, and if they find that desirable or not. I got on in September of '98. Margarita |
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19 Jul 99 - 10:35 PM (#97136) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: WyoWoman I'm against censorship -- but believe in and practice self-censorship. I agree with Jeri. If someone's workin' our last good nerve or says something insulting, tell him or her to knock it off. Then let's go about our business. Interesting -- I looked in some old threads from a couple of years ago, just to get some sense of history, and this certainly is not a new controversy. It keeps rearing its ugly little head, stirring up trouble, then going away until the next time someone acts like a consummate butthead with someone else. Still, it is a public forum and that kind of thing is going to happen -- unless the forum is censored. Which seriously goes against my nature and inclinations. I work for a daily newspaper and we have a huge "letters to the editor" section. And on those pages, we run about 97 percent of the letters we get -- an unheard of number in the newspaper business. And I HATE, HATE, HATE at least a third of the letters we get because of their nastiness, their stupidity, their idiot axes to grind, their repetitive, dependable nature. However, we have taken a (I think, principled) stand in favor of free speech, so we have to take the idiots with the savants. I agree with Joe. Let's just try to let it roll off our backs, tell 'em when they've done something unacceptable, and continue enjoying each other's company -- and our liberty. WW |
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19 Jul 99 - 10:43 PM (#97139) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Alice so now it is about slamming Mac users. guess I'll ignore the Mudcat for awhile and hope it recovers the interesting musical qualities it used to have. |
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19 Jul 99 - 11:38 PM (#97173) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: katlaughing Jeri, I was just paraphrasing and suggesting; I don't personally believe in censorship, except in the types of instances Joe mentioned, i.e. absolute crap which we never see in the first place, and that happens rarely from what I can gather. Gee, Alice, I am sorry, I didn't mean to jump on that bandwagon. I decided it was better to deny being a MAC user, which I am not, than say something about misogynistic postings. Guess I should've just shut up! |
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19 Jul 99 - 11:54 PM (#97190) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: gargoyle It ain't censorship.....it's called a "filter." A ratio can be set.
They were used 12 years ago with BBS's, they are used today with FTP severs (CPM3's etc.) and even found in peculiar variations among "net-nanny's" and "V-Chips."
The bottom line is...POLICE YOURSELF.... 6-1if you load ALL "BS" then "get the h*ll out of here."
(Thank you Art for reminding me of the three jolly fishermen) |
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19 Jul 99 - 11:57 PM (#97192) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: gargoyle Good Bye Alice....
Thanks for preserving the bandwidth. |
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20 Jul 99 - 12:08 AM (#97194) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Bill D there is a BIG difference between 'censored' and 'moderated'...it already IS moderated to some extent..Joe, Max, and maybe a couple others have an edit button'...which they use with GREAT care and not often.. I don't want censorship....some of MY stuff might get zapped..*grin*... I see gargoyle has voted 'yes'...interesting- but he sure has a misanthtopic view of what he wants censored..and his reasons are as terse and brusk as ever..(reminds me of trying to figure out what Emily Dickenson was saying).......(and, is it really true that the curse of "waggin' tongues, prattling, and hugs" can ONLY be countered by bitterness, invective, and insults?..tsk!) |
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20 Jul 99 - 12:19 AM (#97200) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Bill D seems there was a post while I was typing....I used to complain a bit myself about the ratios of 'folk' to other things..but I always left it up to Max to decide..I still wonder if that is not a good plan.. |
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20 Jul 99 - 12:20 AM (#97201) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Night Owl No to censorship. |
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20 Jul 99 - 12:48 AM (#97210) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Big Mick You have got to be kidding!! The debate threads have produced some of the most memorable writings in the 'Cat. Have you noticed that flamers just die out, folks. People of integrity can have disagreements, they may even get ugly. Sometimes people like Martin (IMHO) take misguided steps. But the ups far outweigh the downs. Once, someone edited one of my posts in which we disagreed. I am saying this now for the first time. Yes (and you know who you are), I did notice but in the interest of not creating a stir I didn't say anything except to a friend to see if they had noticed and they did too. I almost left the 'Cat over it. I have not seen it since, and if I thought that were going to be the practice, I would be gone. My position has not changed. We are an amazing community of people who have discourse on music and the issues which spawn it. Done with respect, we can be a venue for understanding. Isn't that what we seek to be when we sing the songs of the people. Isn't one of the purposes of folk music about helping others to feel the feelings of others? Doesn't that promote good in the world. Leave our 'Cat alone, got it? Mick |
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20 Jul 99 - 01:12 AM (#97220) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: dick greenhaus Copied from another thread...
Anger, hurt feelings and off-topic drifting are part of the price you pay for anarchy. If nobody rises to the bait, unsuitable postings simply fall off the bottom of the thread list. If someone wants to join in a fight, there'll be a fight (a virtual fight, anyway). |
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20 Jul 99 - 01:14 AM (#97223) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Banjer Yeah, Mick....Well put, as usual. |
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20 Jul 99 - 01:19 AM (#97225) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: gargoyle Thanks dick....the legitimate music data drew me here.
But I stayed for the anarchy.
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20 Jul 99 - 01:36 AM (#97227) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: mountain tyme Sorry I'm late....I got engrossed on the Why A Duck page. Each one of us censors what we say.... Each one of us censors what we read.... Where's the rub? |
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20 Jul 99 - 02:17 AM (#97237) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: bseed(charleskratz) Alice, I am pretty sure you are not the Mac user referred to above (notice the connection to aol). Gargoyle, I can't use the dragdown members list box on the personal messages page so I can't send messages to you personally. If you send me a message, I can respond and you can vent to me personally and neither of us will have to inflict this stuff on the rest of the group. --seed |
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20 Jul 99 - 03:37 AM (#97255) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: MAG (inactive) I'm against censorship. but bbc, as a fellow librarian, knew that. MA |
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20 Jul 99 - 03:52 AM (#97257) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Roger the zimmer As another librarian I'm also against censorship. I don't read all threads, and have resisted the temptation to contribute to controversial non-music ones, (though not to the temptation to add my own dreadful jokes to humour threads) but if you respond to one that offends you, then the "offender" has probably got the result he/she wants. If no-one else posts, then the thread dies. |
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20 Jul 99 - 04:30 AM (#97264) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: The Shambles I still don't think that there IS any such bias in the forum. I would feel a little foolish however, having taken pains to assure Mick that there was no such bias operating here, to find that his views (or any others) had in fact been censored in the past........ If this has happened, it would certainly go some way to explain why he may detect such a bias and feel as he does? Without going in to the issues involved and before this gets permanently embedded in the 'urban mythology' of The Mudcat, is this true, did such a thing happen? |
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20 Jul 99 - 04:56 AM (#97268) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Joe Offer Well, it's the first I've heard of anything that might be considered censorship. As I have confessed in the past, there were a couple times that I deleted messages that I felt were personal attacks that were directly harmful to individuals. I have disagreed with Mick - strongly, on occasion - but to his face, in open discussion. As far as I know, nobody has censored anything here. It sure has been tempting these last few days, though.... -Joe Offer- |
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20 Jul 99 - 08:08 AM (#97283) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: SueH I vote no to censorship. I am also very much in favour of ignoring deliberately provocative or inflammatory threads. I am sure there have been several posted recently just to see what reaction they trigger. I think there is a tendency to be too analytical here. Why has someone decided to leave, etc. No group or individual can hope to be all things to all people, but I think that Mudcat does a pretty good job. If you have an enquiry about music, then someone will instantly help you out if they possibly can. Therefore Mudcat is fulfilling its basic function. A diversity of threads is what stops it from becoming a sterile environment. Does anyone honestly expect to find only threads which are of interest to them? Even if only music threads were allowed, this would hardly be the case, as 'folk' music is such a generic term. We all have the choice of which threads to read & which to ignore. It seems to me that by entering into endless discussion over whether there are too many non-music threads, whether someone was being too personal/offensive/inflammatory etc, is not only perpetuating but also increasing any problems. Sue |
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20 Jul 99 - 08:11 AM (#97285) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Allan C. I got to thinking about the suggestion made to proportionalize or otherwise limit the non-music threads. Here is a thought I had a few days ago which sums up my feelings: Picture a bunch of good friends gathered around the pickle barrel at the local general store. Many of them have lived in the area all their lives. Some moved there recently. These people have a little time on their hands and they come to the store to "just sit a spell". They talk about whatever might be of some general interest until the door opens and in walks a stranger who asks the group directions to the old vinegar mill. Well, now the members practically fall over each other trying to point and tell the stranger the "best way" to get there. After a short time the stranger thanks them and leaves. Then the conversation, perhaps one about the myriad uses for a 'possum, resumes. So, with this image in mind, I have to say that to limit the quantity of BS threads could have an effect equal to that of putting up a "No Loitering" sign at the store. As to deleting specific posts. In other forums I have been witness to some very good reasons for that being a necessity. In fact, I saw an instance in which a webmaster denied the "cookie" of a particularly obnoxious person. That person had inflicted wounding remarks upon a number of "regulars" and had also done far worse in private emails. I fully support both of these forms of censorship. |
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20 Jul 99 - 09:56 AM (#97308) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Big Mick I can assure you that this has happened on the one occasion that I know of. I do not believe it to be a practice of this forum, or even to have happened more than this one time. As I said, if that were the case, I would no longer be here. It happened about 6 months ago, a post that I had put in had been modified. Please do not get to focused on this. I believe that Dick, Susan & Max have absolutely no intention of allowing this to go on. I probably erred in not bringing it to their attention when it happened. But it absolutely did happen and it caused me some distress at the time and I have watched since and seen no more of it. I believe it may have been a misguided attempt to avoid having controversy. My comments were not personal nor were they offensive in any profane way. I believe it to have been a misguided attempt at keeping harmony on the 'Cat. I have such love for this place that I find myself regretting that I have even brought this up. Let us be aware of this, but let us not endanger our community with it. I beg you. All the best, Mick |
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20 Jul 99 - 10:26 AM (#97323) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Peter T. Positive thread creep (as JO suggests): Anyone know what Ethermotor drops are?(not having much luck in that thread). yours, Peter T. |
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20 Jul 99 - 10:33 AM (#97327) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Alice Gee, Peter, can you use "Ethermotor drops" in a sentence for me? ;-> |
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20 Jul 99 - 10:58 AM (#97336) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Margo Gargoyle, if you stayed for the ANARCHY, then why are you in favor of imposing rules? Folks, this is incredible. It's just like a novel like "The Lord of the Flies" (No comments about who's Piggy, OK?). Here we are, brought together by a common bond; music. Then the regulars find familiarity. Then the controversy creeps in, controversy that is borne of human nature and all it's good and bad.
Government, IMHO, is a necessary evil. We want to be free and self governing. In our case, what are we suggesting that might be the reason for cencorship or 6 to 1 rules? As far as I can gather, the reasons are:
emotional distress (hurt feelings)
So it boils down to Hey, I might be wrong, but the above reasons sounds like immaturity to me. There is a sure fire way to avoid being hurt by an offending person's posts: don't read them. If you don't like Margarita, you can see it's her post before you read it. You can avoid the BS posts by not reading them. Leave the BS to the BS-ers, and move on. As far as I can figure, that should settle this whole mess. (I've been called many things, including simplistic) So let me have it guys. Am I off base here? Margarita |
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20 Jul 99 - 10:59 AM (#97337) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Rick Fielding I used to have one of the all time bizarre cars. Does anyone remember the AMC Pacer? Lots of window space, that's for sure. The strange thing about this one though was that the motor was on the outside of the car, affixed with duct tape.(Oh, and did I forget to tell you that it was fuelled by ether, rather than gas?) T'was still a very unreliable car though, so I purchased a second motor and taped it to the other side. Well naturally people were always asking me questions about it, and I'd have to explain that when "either ethermotor drops off, the other ethermotor will keep the car going". Hi Alice, hope that helps. rick |
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20 Jul 99 - 12:26 PM (#97362) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Peter T. I sure could use some of those good old Ethermotor Drops right now, sitting here on the old Mudcat porch listening to the banjo music of Dock Boggs, with the Rick Fielding CD expected any moment through the Sear catalogue, and in the near distance that most beautiful of all sounds: human beings raising their hearts in harmonious song. All that I would then lack would be sweet Alice by my side, and surely then we would move on through the summer in blitheness and grace. How's that? yours, Peter T. |
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20 Jul 99 - 12:28 PM (#97363) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: katlaughing My Rog is from New Hampshire. He puts an "r" on the end of words making them odd, such as "idea(r), and Marth(r), instead of idea and Martha; then he would drop an "r" in words like Hawthorne, so it comes out Haw-thawn. Reminded me of my English landlady always going on about the la(w)r. Anyway, he told me he remembers this from when he was a kid: his mom sewed a lot; very thrify woman. Whenever she needed to oil her sewing machine motor, she'd go buy a little can of what WE would call "Ethel's Motor Drops; but, being the Yankees they were, it always came out "Ether's Motor drops". Rick, I had one of those cars, too! Only our motor was mounted on the roof; then it really looked like the alien spacecraft model they used for the design. kat |
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20 Jul 99 - 12:36 PM (#97367) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Fadac Speaking of lube. The very best for critical instruments is...whale oil. Yes that is not pc, but long time ago, I had a small jar of the stuff. The best part was that it would never gum up. Used to use it on things like adding machines, clocks, typewriters, firearms, etc. Oh, yes, my mother's sewing machine. Of course you can't get it anymore. There is supposed to be a replacement, but after a while it gums up and messes up the works. I had a three speed, three cylinder VW, one time. No 3rd gear and no #3 cylinder. Ran like crap. -Fadac |
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20 Jul 99 - 12:45 PM (#97368) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Peter T. kat, you may be onto something here. There is a reference in the song to sewing. In the song the E is long (as in Aether) -- not short as in Ethel. Was Ethel a person (like a picture with a lady on it on the can?) yours, Peter T. |
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20 Jul 99 - 12:50 PM (#97369) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Art Thieme minimal censorship sure beats love it or leave it... This isn't brain surgery, friends. It's folk music. and recent threads are chasing away people who DO know what that means and, in turn, allowing those who don't have a clue to stick around. Art (who won't goose-step blindly in the name of love and peace or anything else) |
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20 Jul 99 - 01:36 PM (#97376) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Night Owl This is useless information I think...BUT...someone a while ago wrote a VERY visual description of how they saw the Mudcat in their mind's eye...talking about entering a very comfortable welcoming house with different activities going on in each room...Irish music in one room, Blues in another, warm conversation in the kitchen...etc. and that the excitement here was the ability to choose which room to sit in. Allan C. Your post described, incredibly accurately, our long gone General Store here...(A&P came) Neighbors could share their news and sit for a bit...the common bond we had there was respect for our community's history. The older people shared their stories of growing up and lessons learned to us "younger" people, but the conversations were by no means restricted to local history or current events. People were continually coming in and asking questions, maybe join us for a bit, sharing where they were from..and leaving. The chairs were set to one side of the pickle barrel, and a few feet away was a large brick of cheese...if customers guessed the correct weight of the cheese slices they cut, it was free. We gradually came to care very deeply if one of the "regulars" was sick, having a rough time or missing for any length of time. It was never an "exclusive" group but respect for the history and comraderie of the store was required in order to enjoy spending any length of time there and coming back again. Different individuals sat around the pickle barrel for over a hundred years, long before I participated, and would have continued long after I left. Thanks for the imagery/memory. |
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20 Jul 99 - 01:52 PM (#97383) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: catspaw49 Thank you Art..........and I did read your post re: live in Area A, sleep in Area B, throw a cr*p in Area C ala Ol' Lenny and I should have gone back and backed you up then.......my apologies. Reasonable courtesy in honest face to face debate should be a requirement. I would like to emphasize that face to face part. Asking as Seed did for garg to send the vitriol privately is fine. I do have a problem with the hypocrisy of secreting real thoughts while portraying something else. Spaw |
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20 Jul 99 - 02:12 PM (#97389) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: The Shambles Just to show that this is a pretty regular occurence. Thread courtesy etc;. Well I'm still no wiser, I know Mick said it happened. For the point I made earlier, it does matter to me to know if this is correct? Then I will be only too pleased to leave it alone. |
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20 Jul 99 - 02:22 PM (#97393) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Joe Offer Drop it, Shambles. Apparently, some sort of misdirected censorship did happen once, and the perpetrator was aparently a JoeClone® in training. It happened one time, and probably won't happen again. OK? -Joe Offer- |
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20 Jul 99 - 02:44 PM (#97400) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Richard Bridge I just decided to censor myself. I'll probably go deaf or blind. |
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20 Jul 99 - 04:14 PM (#97418) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: The Shambles Thank you.
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20 Jul 99 - 04:28 PM (#97424) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: katlaughing Gotcha PeterT.! I thought you'd see the tongue in cheek?:-) No Ethel, but my mother-in-law did sew and Rog still pronounces words strangely. I just made up Ethel and her drops. Sorry, it brings you no closer to a solution. Do you have a link where we can hear it? Fadac: I used to own a Ford Cortina (English). It was an adventure to drive. Whenever I put it in reverse, I'd have to lift up the carpet, take the plate off of the trannie, stick a screwdriver between the gears and pop it out, so that I could drive forward again! Lotta fun, NOT! kat |
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20 Jul 99 - 04:32 PM (#97427) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Bill D fadac...had one of them VW's...a bus! 56 bus with a 59 engine...and that back cylinder on the left,(#3?)was always giving trouble...but the deal with a VW, then was, you could pull the engine..set it on a bench, and mess with it!..(I had that b&w book written by the hippie, and a buddy who loved yo tinker!0 |
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20 Jul 99 - 05:24 PM (#97447) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Ferret You can pleas most of the people most of time, but you can't pleas all the people all of the time Remember Jaw, Jaw, is far better than War, War. I have fond the caters that I have disagreed with often more interesting than some of the one I have concerned with. That is to say it make's you think it is. And can be very thought provoking. And the forum is safe place for this to happen people my get offended but not physically hurt. There is always the ability to ignore some thing you fin offensive and not respond. I would like to remind some of the definition of forum in the Dictionary 1: A meeting for the open discussion of subjects of public interest. 2: A medium for open discussion. 3: A public meeting place for open discussion. If you censor it, it will by definition not be open discussion this does not give an excuse for rudeness. Those who have to result to this tack have usually lost the discussion (Remember empty vessels make the most noise) So NO to censorship. Yes to self restrant. All the best ferret |
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20 Jul 99 - 05:31 PM (#97451) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Peter T. rats kat, I was serious! A Net search did turn up something called Aether Drops, and there is sewing machine oil, but! rats! (it was a good gotcha, all the same!) yours, Peter T. |
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20 Jul 99 - 05:35 PM (#97455) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: katlaughing Well put, Ferret. Soooo soooorrryyyy, Peter!***BIG GRIN**** My search didn't turn up anything, but next time I talk to my dad, I'll ask him if he's ever heard of them. kat |
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20 Jul 99 - 07:03 PM (#97486) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Melodeon The great thing about MUDCAT as far as I'm conceerned is that a thread on censorship (a subject beloved by fascists, Hoover, Maggy Thatcher and their like) throws up something fascinating. I refer of course to the 'ethermotor'and the almost 3 cylinder VW. Would this get censored if some had their wicked way with our forum. Melodeon |
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20 Jul 99 - 07:06 PM (#97488) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Legal Eagle But then, Sham, I would not be able to see or hear your point. |
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20 Jul 99 - 08:37 PM (#97511) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: alison Shambles, It did happen as Mick said. I am a witness, but I can't remember what is was about.... and like he said he's willing to drop it, so should the rest of us. Slainte alison |
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20 Jul 99 - 09:11 PM (#97520) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: j0_77 NO Readers will notice, I am sure, that I don't post a lot and if so the postings are direct - no wussy stuff fer me - anywho - seein as this is a self examination time - I will let ya'll in on a secret - the reason I do not get into more debates is cause I am tooo busy doing music or my lil 10 cent busines - (I barely survive) - and if I wuz a jouralist I would still be against censorship - gargoyle take note - But I admit I do go overboard at times PHEW
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20 Jul 99 - 09:33 PM (#97524) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Big Mick My last word on this subject is that no one should make any assumptions as to who did this. Thank you, Alison (otherwise known as THE FAIR ALISON) for letting them know that you were witness. I had no intentions of mentioning names and I am grateful that you have lent credibility. I want to say that I do not believe that Joe Offer, Max, Dick or Susan had anything to do with this. You may think that that eliminates all possibilities, but let me assure you it does not. I have watched this site for a considerable amount of time. I believe these people to be honorable and do not believe they had anything to do with it. It was relatively minor and has not occurred since despite plenty of occasions where I am sure these fine people would have loved to exercise the option. I think that we all know that there will be no censorship here. Let's give this one a rest. There is no debate. Mick |
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20 Jul 99 - 10:40 PM (#97536) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: gargoyle Ok....I'll take the blame....
I censored you with a "hack."
Glad to be the Smoo....
Let's get back to music. |
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20 Jul 99 - 11:23 PM (#97545) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: John Hindsill I really cannot believe that anyone would want to censor this forum! While I do no agree with many postings, either as to content or intent, I think we would be poorer for the lack of them. Sometimes what we perceive in a written posting is not intended; as I told Catspaw49 in the chat room, inflection is everything and is lost in a simple written statement. Even where the comments become ad hominum I subscribe to the old sayings of "sticks and stones" and "I'm rubber, you're glue" What would we censor if censor we did? Trade union songs? Anti-union songs? Murder ballads? National anthems? Gospel music? Nursery songs? and etc. And the discussions about these and other topics, would they be taboo? I would hope no. For Melodeon, hate to tell you that facists (big F or little f) don't have the market on censorship. I cite Orwell's "1984" as what Communism did, and maybe does yet. Too, is not P.C. a form of censorship imposed by the Left? Yeah, I think so. Somebody famous said that the antidote to free speech is more free speech. While I may not have it exactly right, I think it an apt aphorism for us.---John |
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21 Jul 99 - 12:45 AM (#97558) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: SeanM On behalf of myself and hopefully the rest of the gang, it would appear that the answer to the thread's title is a resounding NO. As guilty as I am of BSing as much as everyone else is, can we drop this subject and get back to the possums? M |
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21 Jul 99 - 04:22 AM (#97589) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Ferret seanM is that Fried or boiled. Ferret |
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21 Jul 99 - 11:38 AM (#97673) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Jack (who is called Jack) I have no problem with the regulation and inhibition of any forum by an individual or group provided that the said forum is essentially the sole property and creation of said private individual or group. If you publish a newspaper, you get to print what you want (within the bounds of laws against libel, the improper use of copyrighted intellectual property without consent, government secrets, or inciting speech, etc...). You also get to exclude what you don't want to print. That's not censorship, thats private discretion, which is a cornerstone of free speech. In other words, free speech doesn't just mean that you can say or publish whatever you want, it means that you don't have to repeat or publish something just because some other person or agency wants you to do so. The confusion occurs when people believe that THEY THEMSELVES are publishing on Mudcat. The truth is that while they are doing the writing, it is Mudcat in the persons of Dick, Max, Susan et al, which is doing the publishing. So in the current context, those who submit these writings are enjoying the full excersise of their rights by being able to write what they want and to freely send it to another party with a request that it be published by that other party. On the other hand those associated with Mudcat are enjoying full excercise of THEIR free speech rights by having descretion over whether they actually do publish it. The fact that Mudcat is currently choosing a priori to publish just about anything that comes in does not imply a waiver of that basic privelege. |
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21 Jul 99 - 11:45 AM (#97674) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: katlaughing JackwicJ, you put your finger right on it! Excellent point! Thanks, kat |
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21 Jul 99 - 11:55 AM (#97679) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: annamill jackwicJ, I have a very strong feeling that you are a lawyer!! Maybe even a judge. Maybe even a supreme court judge. Very well expressed as Katlaughing says. I guess we do need a certain amount of discrete choice. After having met the powers that be, I feel very safe with their choices. Intellegent and honorable, they are! Love, annap |
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21 Jul 99 - 12:57 PM (#97697) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: Mike Strobel Dear BBC & Fellow Mudcats, First of all, BBC's written comments were an excellent example of a kind heart , via the written word. The clarity of these thoughts stated the issues and observations which are missing from personal conversations, that, I'm sure we all realize. However, the ability for all " Mudcatters ", to support each other through these new electronic mediums is a luxury/tool/vehicle that we should cherish and till like a garden. The garden requires dedication in order to produce a floral and/or vegatable bounty and ideally if we choose to dedicate ourselves to liberal, yet , respectful communication, then we will always be sure all the flowers ( opinions ) or the vegatables ( voices ) will grow and be heard. |
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21 Jul 99 - 01:51 PM (#97710) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: bbc Really good thoughts, Jack & Mike. When I read Jack's post, I reflected on the Mudcat Resources site & the thread on wanting to "employ" Dick Greenhaus. One of the nice points of doing something voluntarily (free) is that you get to decide what you do, how you do it, & in what timeframe. Many times, money changing hands constrains freedom of choice. Thanks for reminding us that this is Max's website, at which we are guests. I think I heard Mike asking us to be *nice* guests. bbc BTW, Joe, I realize that not all will do so. You're right--once we are grown, we don't tend to change much because of what others tell us. As we learned in the Dalai Lama joke, change comes from within. :) |
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21 Jul 99 - 05:13 PM (#97752) Subject: RE: Censor Mudcat--Y or N?(NM)(not music thread) From: John OSh No to Censorship! The basis of most "folk" music, whether it be from America, Great Britian, Ireland, China, etc ad nauseum is often based in contraversy. People wrote songs about their lives and times and events which they percieved. The incontravertable fact of the matter is that this being a "free" forum to dicuss music or events or just stream of though gives a marketplace of ideas, a free exchange of thoughts and opinions oan feelings which others can react to or think on, much as music is suppposed to encourge free expression of ideals. I post occasionally, but often just log on and check out what is being said. With the world being diverse as it is, everyone must understand that people have differing thoughts on topics, and express them in various ways. While as a matter of general respect, personal attacks and blantant, hurtful expressions of topics such as racism, religious intolerence, etc should be avioded and not tolerated by all members of the forum, one should also keep a general open mind to others ideas and thoughts. Always remember, well expressed thoughts are always more effectve at bring a point than using a "sword" slash approach. Now, off my high horse and no to cersorship! John OSh |