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04 Oct 09 - 03:15 PM (#2738137) Subject: BS: Tommy Tiernan - raving racist or what? From: Jim Carroll I'm surprised nobody picked up on this - or maybe I missed it. Alleged Irish comedian Tommy Tiernan distinguished himself with an anti-Semitic rant on stage: "Six million? I would have got 10 or 12 million out of that. No f**kng problem! F**k them. Two at a time, they would have gone. Hold hands, get in there! Leave us your teeth and your glasses" He then went on to talk about two Americans who had approached him after a gig to complain about his jokes: "But these Jews, these f**king Jew c**ts come up to me. F**king Christ-killing bastards..." Blatent racist or misunderstood little flower? Jim Carroll |
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04 Oct 09 - 03:35 PM (#2738154) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: meself Yikes. It wasn't a misguided attempt at "irony", was it? (I have no knowledge of the guy). |
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04 Oct 09 - 03:55 PM (#2738173) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: ard mhacha He is as funny as Joe Stalin, a first degree fool. |
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04 Oct 09 - 03:58 PM (#2738180) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Alice Sounds like a bigot. If he thinks it's a joke, it is a sick joke. |
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04 Oct 09 - 05:43 PM (#2738298) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Acorn4 Never heard of the bloke, but isn't that against the law? - thought Jim Davidson/Bernard Manning wers bad enough! |
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04 Oct 09 - 05:54 PM (#2738311) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Richard Bridge You mean he's allegedly Irish, or allegedly a comedian? |
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04 Oct 09 - 06:10 PM (#2738326) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Acorn4 Reminds me of a comment about Cannon and Ball -"the only comedy duo with two straight men" ! |
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04 Oct 09 - 06:22 PM (#2738338) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Lox Sounds pretty rough, though I'd need to know what was said before and after ... ... he may have been satirizing an anti-semitic stereotype ... ... close to the bone though, and as quoted above looks pretty tasteless and unnecessary. |
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05 Oct 09 - 05:34 AM (#2738652) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Jim Carroll "though I'd need to know what was said before and after ..." Why - he said as quoted - isn't that enough? He also said of the Jews "Of course they are Christ murderers; who do you think killed him; the f****** Mmexicans?" Can't think of a context in which any of this is acceptable, can you? Jim Carroll |
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05 Oct 09 - 06:31 AM (#2738678) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Acorn4 I'd agree, except perhaps if it was intended in an "Alf Garnett" mode - exaggerating something to the point of being ridiculous -you'd need to know something about the rest of his output to know, I suppose. Taken at face value I'd agree you'd have to say totally out of order. |
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05 Oct 09 - 08:14 AM (#2738738) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Jim Carroll I don't think our Tommy is bright enough to do satire. What next, I wonder 'A Funny Thing Happened To Me On The Way To The Crematorium'? - the mind boggles!! Jim Carroll |
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05 Oct 09 - 04:14 PM (#2739094) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Lox "Why - he said as quoted - isn't that enough?" Context is everything. Most stand up comedians play a character and script their shows. Russel Crowe played a skinhead in the film "Romper Stomper" The character he played was a vicious hateful man who went round bashing up vietnamese immigrants in Australia. This doesn't make Russel Crowe a vicious hateful man. Furthermore, there are different types of satire, political and social. I can imagine a context in which the alleged joke above (by which I mean it is allegedly a joke) is both clever and funny. Though as it stands it is pretty uninspiring. |
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05 Oct 09 - 04:59 PM (#2739140) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Jim Carroll Tommy Tiernan stood up in front of an audience and told jokes which dehumanised Jews - pretty much as happened throughout Nazi Germany in the 1930s, thereby making the extermination of 6,000,000 human beings not only possible but desirable in the minds of many Germans - I thought Cabaret did a pretty good job of telling is it was, as we seem to be talking about films. No satire was intended; even he hasn't put this up as an argument. The only defence of his behaviour has come from racist apologists who have claimed that racist jokes do no harm. Wonder if that's what we about to get here - let's see, shall we! Jim Carroll |
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05 Oct 09 - 08:13 PM (#2739231) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Tug the Cox Comment from Tiernan's webpage. Not altogether convincing. Firstly, I would like to say that as a private individual I am greatly upset by the thought that these comments have caused hurt to others as this was never my intention; yet, the Electric Picnic public interview with Hot Press Magazine has been taken so far out of context that I am quite bewildered. The things that I said in front of a live audience were in an attempt to explain my belief that one of the duties of the comic performer is to be reckless and irresponsible and that the things that they say should NEVER be taken out of context. If you read the full transcript or listen to the podcast you will see that I preface my rant by saying that it should not be taken seriously and as such, the rant took place as an example of my argument. While it is out of context, which it most definitely is now, it seems callous cruel and ignorant. This is not the first time that something like this has happened and it probably won't be the last. However, as a public performer I can only hope that whatever wild, irresponsible and reckless things that come into my head will be taken in the context in which they were said. According to Hot Press editor, Niall Stokes: "if you see or read it in context, there is a comment in there about people who are fanatical and who can't take a joke. But to interpret it as anti-Semitism is wrongheaded in the extreme. The way I see it, he is satirising anti-Semitism, while making a more general point that we should all be able to laugh at ourselves." Tommy Tiernan |
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05 Oct 09 - 08:19 PM (#2739233) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Tug the Cox And from the 'Spoonfed website.Perhaps more a poor judge than a raving racist. The comedian had begun by saying a comedy stage is "about allowing whatever lunacy is inside you to come out in a special protected environment where people know that nothing they say is being taken seriously" but it seems he underestimated the environment of the Festival's Hot Press chatroom as news of his comments spread to the Irish press and Jewish community. Jewish Fine Gael TD Alan Shatter said his words were 'disgusting and unacceptable' while Ken Sweeney of the Sunday Tribune said he had 'crossed a new line'. |
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05 Oct 09 - 08:48 PM (#2739246) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Jack Campin I suspect that if he'd said the same sort of thing about Gypsies, nobody in the Irish media would have taken the least flicker of interest. In fact I wonder whether he had been saying the same sort of thing about Gypsies for years and just decided it was time to move on to Jews because his audiences were getting bored. What kind of an audience finds this sort of crap entertaining, anyway? |
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06 Oct 09 - 07:49 AM (#2739466) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Tug the Cox Interjection from confused of Tunbridge Wells. I thought Irish people WERE gypsies! (just leaving) |
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06 Oct 09 - 01:42 PM (#2739738) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Smokey. It sounds to me as if he's overestimated the intelligence of his audience. To quote those words out of context and draw unnecessary attention to them looks to me more (inadvertantly) 'racist' than his use of them in the first place. |
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06 Oct 09 - 03:45 PM (#2739872) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: GUEST,mg I wouldn't excuse him any more than I would that Borat idiot. You are not obliged as a comedian to be tasteless and push all limits of decency..not at all. That is an excuse for abuse and bad behavior and hate speech should be accounted for there too. mg |
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06 Oct 09 - 04:53 PM (#2739909) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Jim Carroll "To quote those words out of context and draw unnecessary attention to them looks to me more (inadvertantly) 'racist' than his use of them in the first place." You mean if we ignore racism it will go away? Now there's a piece of good news. This moron is reckoned to be one of the top comedians. "It sounds to me as if he's overestimated the intelligence of his audience." What is intelligent about accepting or spouting racism? Beer bellies like Bernard Manning made a career out of it and I doubt if even his best friends would have accused him of being 'intelligent'. Jim Carroll |
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06 Oct 09 - 07:33 PM (#2740028) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Smokey. I read his explanation of it and I understand and accept it. I've watched some of his other stuff, and he doesn't seem like a 'racist' to me, or a moron. Feel free to draw your own conclusions from that, but I think you are doing him an unwarranted disservice. |
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06 Oct 09 - 07:55 PM (#2740039) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Tug the Cox I had never heard of him till this thread, sought some evidence ( two postings submitted above). Sorry to those who prefer invective over evidence. Lets get the faggots out ( bit of double entendre for you to unravel.) |
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06 Oct 09 - 08:46 PM (#2740075) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Smokey. No I'd not heard of him either. There's quite a lot on YouTube - I like him. It's 'Tiernan' by the way, not 'Teirnan'. |
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06 Oct 09 - 09:09 PM (#2740089) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Smokey. Answers to your questions, Jim: You mean if we ignore racism it will go away? No. I meant what I said. What is intelligent about accepting or spouting racism? Sadly, I don't think the two are actually connected. |
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07 Oct 09 - 03:04 AM (#2740196) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Jim Carroll "Wonder if that's what we about to get here - let's see, shall we! " Yup - it looks like we are! Jim Carroll |
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07 Oct 09 - 05:56 AM (#2740260) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Lox "Yup - it looks like we are!" Reading back through this thread I don't see evidence to support this comment. When Roy Chubby Brown makes a "funny observation" like - "maybe all Muslims aren't terrorists, but how come the terrorists are always moslem" that is clearly a racist joke. Why? 1, He satirizes no-one but invites the audience to treat Muslims with suspicion and contempt, whilst having a "knowing" laugh at the PC Brigade. 2, When interviewed about the points of view that his jokes imply, he confirms that those are indeed his opinions and he stands by them. On this basis I conclude that Roy Chubby Brown is an objectionable Racist man and that his kind of humour, which does encourage prejudice and derision, can be compared (loosely) to the kind of derision expressed by Nazi comedians in the 1930's in Germany as it villifies a demographic group and excludes them from the joke. Now that I have read Tommy Teirnan's explanation, it seems clear to me that: 1, that he does not think that 6,000,000 jews dying was either funny in itself nor in any way justified. 2, he holds no disparaging views about Jews. 3, that he has made an effort to clarify both of the above and has expressed regret for upsetting members of the public. On this basis I am prepared to accept that his joke was made in a wider context and that it may make a deeper more valid point. Satirizing racist attitudes is an important part of combatting racism. |
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07 Oct 09 - 07:26 AM (#2740294) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Stu So if Tommy Teirnan satirising modern takes on taboo subjects is OK let's try it the other way round, with the Irish Potato famine as the subject: ""one and half million? I would have got 3 or 4 million out of that. No f**kng problem! F**k them. Two at a time, they would have gone. Hold hands, get in there! Leave us your potatoes and your land" He then went on to talk about two Irishmen who had approached him after a gig to complain about his jokes: "But these Paddy's, these f**king Paddy c**ts come up to me. F**king Soldier-killing bastards..." That's absolutely fucking hilarious. Not. If the only way he can 'satirise' PC attitudes is by spouting this sort of shite then he's a crap comedian too. |
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07 Oct 09 - 08:50 AM (#2740330) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Keith A of Hertford There is a curious absence in the contributors here. Royston and Richard Bridge are normally very outspoken on racist issues. They have dominated recent BNP threads. But they have no opinion on this matter. Curious. |
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07 Oct 09 - 08:53 AM (#2740335) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Keith A of Hertford Sorry. Just spotted Richard's post. keith |
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07 Oct 09 - 11:56 AM (#2740467) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Lox Sugarfoot Jack. I like the way you have made your argument, in particular how you have used a hypothetical example of an unacceptable tirade against the Irish to illustrate your point? What if I decided to selectively quote from your post and then said "sugarfoot jack thinks that the Irish famine was funny and that we'd all be better off if more Irish had died in the famine"? That would completely misrepresent your position wouldn't it? It would be misleading to take your hypothetical quote out of context wouldn't it? Oh and by the way, if you would please read my post before responding to it, I did not say that Tommy Teirnan was satirizing the PC brigade, I said he was satirizing racist attitudes. Your post illustrates my point about context beautifully. And by the way, I am Irish, but being intelligent I have not taken umbridge at your comments as I am able to see that you are not advocating hatred of the Irish but using an example of hateful language to illustrate a wider point. A bit like Tommy Teirnan. |
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07 Oct 09 - 12:34 PM (#2740496) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: GUEST,Sugarfoot Jack sans cookie for some reason What I'm saying Lox is this isn't funny if you're on the arse end of it. I see your point and largely agree with it but I'm not convinced that this sort of joke is particularly illuminating or funny (as my hamfisted attempt at parody was supposed to show). Perhaps this is a form of satire but you'd think as TT is someone whose people have been on the wrong end of years of shameful racial stereotyping that some things if used in comedy have to be approached with a degree of sensitivity, which he is somewhat lacking. |
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07 Oct 09 - 01:54 PM (#2740554) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Lox Jack, the point is that you have to know what came before or after and as things stand we only have the selected quote available. If we took your post and removed: "So if Tommy Teirnan satirising modern takes on taboo subjects is OK let's try it the other way round, with the Irish Potato famine as the subject:" and also removed: "That's absolutely fucking hilarious. Not. If the only way he can 'satirise' PC attitudes is by spouting this sort of shite then he's a crap comedian too." Then it would appear that you were saying unacceptable things about the Irish. But with those lines before and after it is obvious that you are making a different point and that you are not expressing ANY opinion about the Irish. I don't know what TT's point was if he had any because I don't know if there was anythng before or after, much less what might have come before or after. If I knew that I would have a better idea of what he was saying. |
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07 Oct 09 - 02:32 PM (#2740579) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Acorn4 I watched quite a longish Youtube clip of TT - he was quite funny - most of his jibes were actually against the English, but nothing I, as an English person, took offence at, just banter. Would probably need to know a lot more about his output to get an idea of if he makes a habit of the anti-Jewish stuff. |
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07 Oct 09 - 06:54 PM (#2740796) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Smokey. I've nothing to add to what Lox has already said with probably more clarity than I could muster, but I'd be interested to know, Jim, what you thought of Alf Garnett. |
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07 Oct 09 - 10:59 PM (#2740916) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: MGM·Lion Yes, I have been thinking of Alf Garnett. Warren Mitchell, who played Alf, I remember once saying in an interview that he was always meeting people who praised him for 'having a go at all those wogs'. He would reply, 'You don't get it, mate; it's you I'm having a go at, not them!' — but he admitted ruefully that such were probably too thick & hidebound to get it even then, after he had pointed out the true situation. The danger with satire is that the stupid & racist are satire-proof; but still have votes & the 'democratic right to be heard'. |
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07 Oct 09 - 11:36 PM (#2740925) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Peace The guy's a comedian. It ain't funny. If you were Jewish, would YOU find it funny? IMO, that's the thermometer and the barometer. |
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07 Oct 09 - 11:41 PM (#2740928) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Peace BTW, his math sucks. There were about 9.5 million Jews in Europe in 1939. After the war there were 3.5 million. Do the math and gimme a BIG laugh. |
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08 Oct 09 - 12:22 AM (#2740948) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Peace Comic kicked off Canadian tour after blithe remarks about Holocaust Irish comedian says it's a comedian's duty 'to be reckless and irresponsible'. Just for Laughs has dropped Irish comic Tommy Tiernan from an upcoming national comedy tour in the aftermath of highly controversial comments he made about the Jewish community. Tiernan had been part of the Montreal-based company's "all-star edition" tour and was scheduled to perform from Oct. 28 to Nov. 15 at events across Canada, including a stop at Massey Hall on Oct. 29. Company spokesperson Lisa Lee confirmed Tiernan, 40, is "not on the tour anymore. Both parties agreed that it's better that he (Tiernan) not be on this tour." Lee said a replacement is being sought for the tour, which begins Oct. 19 in St. John's, Nfld. and is hosted by Ottawa-born comic Sugar Sammy. While the dates still appear on Tiernan's website, a spokesperson refused comment and referred inquiries to Just For Laughs CEO Bruce Hills. Last month, Tiernan made highly inflammatory remarks about Jews during a question-and-answer session at the Electric Picnic Art and Musical Festival in Ireland. While insisting in advance that his comments should not be taken seriously, Tiernan said he was responding to a complaint from a Jewish couple following a show in New York at which he was accused of being anti-Semitic. His remarks, including profanity and a blithe reference to the Holocaust, sparked an angry reaction from Irish politicians and religious leaders. In a statement, Tiernan said he was "quite bewildered" by the uproar and said he had not intended to cause "hurt to others." "The things that I said in front of a live audience were in an attempt to explain my belief that one of the duties of the comic performer is to be reckless and irresponsible and that the things that they say should never taken out of context," the statement added. Prior to being removed from the Just For Laughs website, a statement – including a video clip of Tiernan performing – lauded him for entertaining audiences "by tackling topics of sex, family and religion with intensity and honesty that's as thought-provoking as it is funny. That honesty has led the Irish Senate to accuse him of blasphemy." |
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08 Oct 09 - 01:28 PM (#2741272) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Lox I've seen one clip of him on youtube now. He spent approximately 20 minutes ripping the piss out of one particular ethnic group. The Irish. His own. He threw in a couple of jokes about the English at the start too. Every single joke he made was a satirical swipe at a cultural stereotype. His stock in trade is clearly social satire. Much like the famous Jewish comedian Lenny Bruce who used the word "nigger", but in a context where its use was genuinely funny, but also inclusive and poignant. Context, as I have said before, is everything. ------------------------------ By the way, I ccan't help noting that I am very close to Smokey in my assessmen t of this situation and would point out that the only other time we have made contact on here has been on the BNP threads where we have both been noticeably vocal in our condemnation of racism and racist politics. I am accuse by soome on here of being a witch-hunter because of my anti racist views. But I am clear about the difference between racism and satire. Tommy tiernan is a satirist and as I said in an earlier post, satire is a powerful weapon in the fight against racism. |
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08 Oct 09 - 02:08 PM (#2741316) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Peace True, Lox. However, finding that line 'not to cross' is key to making it funny instead of hateful. |
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08 Oct 09 - 02:24 PM (#2741331) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: GUEST,TtT Tommy Tiernan released a statement that said he had not meant to cause offence and that his words has been taken out of context. He said that the comments were part of an attempt to explain his belief that comedians have a duty to be irresponsible and reckless, to allow "whatever lunacy is within you to come out" and that they should never be taken out of context. He added that the statements that had caused controversy had been preceded by a statement not to take the rant seriously. Olaf Tyaransen wrote that neither he nor Tommy Tiernan had anticipated the subsequent response to unreserved comments made by the comedian during an afternoon interview at the Electric Picnic — an end-of-season arts & music festival. Tyaransen said the last question asked from the floor (by an audience member readily identifiable by a green 'Palestina' t-shirt) about a dogged charge of anti-Semitism led to the comments at issue, and part of Tiernan's response recounted criticism of his routine by a Jewish couple after a show in New York. Olaf Tyaransen claimed Tiernan's subsequent ideas — focusing on a "two-at-a-time" efficiency concerning the systematic murder of millions of Jews — had been taken out of context, though he personally held the comedian's monologue as 'very funny' and said as much on Marian Finucane's RTÉ Radio 1 show of the 26th September 2009. |
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08 Oct 09 - 02:44 PM (#2741357) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: MGM·Lion ROTFLMAO |
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08 Oct 09 - 02:51 PM (#2741366) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Azizi I'm curious what people find funny about the comments that Tommy Tiernan made that are the focus of this thread. |
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08 Oct 09 - 05:19 PM (#2741488) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Smokey. Nothing is funny about the comments themselves, Azizi. Taken out of context, as has happened here, they are every bit as vile as they appear. He seems to have illustrated his point rather well, judging by the response. I really don't think it's fair to misrepresent someone in this manner; there's quite enough real, tangible, definable racial hatred about as it is. Let's fight that with every means possible. Slagging off comedians just doesn't do it for me; they're a soft target, like any entertainer has to be, and the potential for misunderstanding in comedy is self-evident, as we seem to have proved here. |
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08 Oct 09 - 05:43 PM (#2741508) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Azizi I still don't understand. In his statement, Tommy Tiernan said "he had not meant to cause offence and that his words has been taken out of context. He said that the comments were part of an attempt to explain his belief that comedians have a duty to be irresponsible and reckless, to allow "whatever lunacy is within you to come out" and that they should never be taken out of context." -snip- So is his defense that what he said was to illustrate that comdedians have a duty to be irresponsible and reckless? (putting aside my opinion about that). In other words, is Tiernan saying that the vile anti-Semitic things he said were because he was trying to say the craziest things that he-or a character he was portraying in his comedy sketch [?] could think of? And if it was a comedy sketch, what does he say when he steps out of it. Like did he say "Yeah, anybody who says stuff like that is Really crazy". And if has indicated that the vile anti-Semitic things he said was while he was "in role" to make a point that saying something like that would be crazy, when did he clarify that? |
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08 Oct 09 - 06:55 PM (#2741555) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Smokey. Tiernan explains it better than I can: "Firstly, I would like to say that as a private individual I am greatly upset by the thought that these comments have caused hurt to others as this was never my intention; yet, the Electric Picnic public interview with Hot Press Magazine has been taken so far out of context that I am quite bewildered. The things that I said in front of a live audience were in an attempt to explain my belief that one of the duties of the comic performer is to be reckless and irresponsible and that the things that they say should NEVER be taken out of context. If you read the full transcript or listen to the podcast you will see that I preface my rant by saying that it should not be taken seriously and as such, the rant took place as an example of my argument. While it is out of context, which it most definitely is now, it seems callous cruel and ignorant. This is not the first time that something like this has happened and it probably won't be the last. However, as a public performer I can only hope that whatever wild, irresponsible and reckless things that come into my head will be taken in the context in which they were said." (Tommy Tiernan) "if you see or read it in context, there is a comment in there about people who are fanatical and who can't take a joke. But to interpret it as anti-Semitism is wrongheaded in the extreme. The way I see it, he is satirising anti-Semitism, while making a more general point that we should all be able to laugh at ourselves." (Niall Stokes, editor of Hot Press Magazine) |
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08 Oct 09 - 07:40 PM (#2741586) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Declan Tommy Tiernan has denied that he is anti semetic - well he's hardly anti-Mexican is he? He claims his comments have been taken out of context, So what exactly is the context in which remarks about the mass murder of 6 million fellow human beings on the basis of their ethnic origins could be considered as funny? I just don't get this humour - his remarks are offensive, and not just to Jewish people but to any thinking person anywhere. Almost every racist remark I have ever heard has been prefaced by a phrase like "I'm not a rascist but.." I consider myself to have a broad sense of humour, but there are limits beyond which things cease to be funny and Tommy has definitely crossed the line with this stuff, in my opinion. |
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08 Oct 09 - 07:52 PM (#2741592) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Azizi I co-sign what Declan wrote. |
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08 Oct 09 - 08:00 PM (#2741594) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Peace "Good satire should afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted." |
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08 Oct 09 - 08:48 PM (#2741630) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Smokey. Wiki's definition of satire: "Satire is often strictly defined as a literary genre or form; although in practice it is also found in the graphic and performing arts. In satire, human or individual vices, follies, abuses, or shortcomings are held up to censure by means of ridicule, derision, burlesque, irony, or other methods, ideally with the intent to bring about improvement. Although satire is usually meant to be funny, the purpose of satire is not primarily humour in itself so much as an attack on something of which the author strongly disapproves, using the weapon of wit. A very common, almost defining feature of satire is its strong vein of irony or sarcasm, but parody, burlesque, exaggeration, juxtaposition, comparison, analogy, and double entendre are all frequently used in satirical speech and writing. The essential point, however, is that "in satire, irony is militant".[2] This "militant irony" (or sarcasm) often professes to approve (or at least accept as natural) the very things the satirist actually wishes to attack." |
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08 Oct 09 - 08:50 PM (#2741633) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Peace I'm a bit lost here. I fail to see what he's attacking. I really wish someone would tell me what I've missed. |
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08 Oct 09 - 09:09 PM (#2741640) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Smokey. Anti-semitism, extremist views.. |
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08 Oct 09 - 09:09 PM (#2741641) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Azizi What's the difference between allowing a comedian to say anything that he or she wants to (in the name of satire) and down playing the hurtful impact of a person's bigoted jokes by saying that he or she is "just joking"? |
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08 Oct 09 - 09:25 PM (#2741649) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Peace Well, I hope he doesn't use that particular rant in Tel Aviv. |
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08 Oct 09 - 09:33 PM (#2741656) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Smokey. The difference is the intent behind it - I think.. A very thought provoking question though. How one perceives that intent is another matter I suppose. |
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09 Oct 09 - 01:25 AM (#2741757) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: MGM·Lion "if you see or read it in context, there is a comment in there about people who are fanatical and who can't take a joke... satirising anti-Semitism, while making a more general point that we should all be able to laugh at ourselves." (Niall Stokes, editor of Hot Press Magazine) The 'can't you take a joke?' response to someone objecting to being attacked or insulted is the most FACILE and IRRITATING of offensive self-justifications, and the person who resorts to it, WHATEVER THE 'CONTEXT', is a fool & a coward [that means you, Stokes, & you, Tiernan: hope you are both laughing!]. I lost I know not how many cousins-once-removed in Romania & Lithuania among those 6m. Could somebody please tell me why I should be expected to laugh at that? |
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09 Oct 09 - 05:15 AM (#2741811) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: GUEST,Den I LOVE his routine. Tommy is and always will be a comedy genius. His talent is side splitting from the outset; Tommy just seems to bring that uniqueness to the stage and makes the most basic thing funny. I still laugh myself senselessly when Tommy launches off like this. He's a filthy mouthed funny guy that reminds me of Alf too. It's vulgarity coupled with charm. He is a brilliant comedian with a tremendous standup presence. He was a master of the comedy stage. |
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09 Oct 09 - 06:28 AM (#2741842) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Lox Azizi, The answer is context. It depends what comes before and what comes after. If you would like to see an example, read sugarfoot jacks post earlier and my comments on it. |
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09 Oct 09 - 06:54 AM (#2741862) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Lox Azizi, Here's another example. Lets imagine for the sake of this argument that I made disparaging comments about Smokey to illustrate my point of view. I might lead up to those comments by describing a context and therefore setting the scene so that readers were in no doubt as to my intent and the meaning of my post. That way people know what I'm driving at when I begin my "Tirade": Smokey makes me sick!! He's a typical whingeing liberal who thinks he knows everything on every bloody subject from race to immigration. Furthermore, being from south east London you can bet your bottom dollar that he is a thieving lying chav who shouldn't be given the time of day much less listened to or trusted. What's more, one minute he's all anti BNP and then the next minute he's defending anti-semitic comedians. What a tosser, I hope he and his family all die slow agonizing deaths. "Tirade" over. Ok - what did I do? I imagined how an objectionable bigot with an axe to grind might attack smokey. I deliberately threw in some typical urban stereotypes and exxaggerated the whole cocktail in order to draw attention to exactly how unpleasant and unreasonable such attitudes are. Smokey clearly doesn't fit the above description, but for my satire to work I have to get close to the bone, so that on the one hand it is exaggerated but on the other so that it is believable. If it isn't believable then it is useless as satire as it does not draw atttention to the thing it satirtizes which is real. Apologetic satire satirizes pleasant fictions which don't need to be satirized. Besides, once you know the context, the "Tirade" can be laughed at. The reader isn't laughing at smokey, they are laughing at the ridiculous and a little thrilled by the edginess of it as there is always a risk that smokey or others might miss the point of this post and think I actually hate him. Anyway, I will now illustrate my point by reposting this post selectively so that only the "Tirade" is left. Note how differently it reads. |
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09 Oct 09 - 06:54 AM (#2741863) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Lox Smokey makes me sick!! He's a typical whingeing liberal who thinks he knows everything on every bloody subject from race to immigration. Furthermore, being from south east London you can bet your bottom dollar that he is a thieving lying chav who shouldn't be given the time of day much less listened to or trusted. What's more, one minute he's all anti BNP and then the next minute he's defending anti-semitic comedians. What a tosser, I hope he and his family all die slow agonizing deaths. |
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09 Oct 09 - 06:56 AM (#2741865) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Lox So you see how context makes a difference. By the way, to clarify my position, I would like to apologize if anyone has taken offence from my comments, especially smokey, my intention was not to upset anyone but to make a deeper point about context. |
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09 Oct 09 - 07:21 AM (#2741877) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: GUEST,Den Yes Lox we see your point. It's a Robertson's Jam thing. |
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09 Oct 09 - 07:55 AM (#2741894) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Lox I'm not sure you do - Robertsons Jam don't do satire, they make Jam. Their Logo is a gollywog. That isn't satire either, it exaggerates black racial characteristics and has no other context. If a sketch or story existed in which an idiot was portrayed laughing at a gollywog and his derisive attitude was exaggerated and lampooned realistically, that might be an example of satire. A gollywog on its own however is a caricature of black racial characteristics that does not include black people in the joke but rather belittles and insults them. There is no satire in golly's or in Robertsons Jam. |
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09 Oct 09 - 08:07 AM (#2741904) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Azizi Lox, where's the concluding lines where you [and Tommy Tiernan] unequivocably say that what you wrote/said was hateful bigotry? Even if your purpose is to have a "teachable moment", in my opinion, the fact that you abhor such vile comments needs to be explicitly indicated afterwards. Even with a clear, unequivocable concluding statement at the conclusion of that tirade, I don't approve of those words.Nor do I approve of that tactic because bigoted people are liable to hear you expressing and reinforcing their hateful beliefs and not 'get' any statement denouncing that bigotry even if such statements are clearly made. Furthermore, I don't find those examples either funny or witty. (I'm speaking here of your words and the words Tiernan said which-I believe-rightly got him into trouble). |
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09 Oct 09 - 08:08 AM (#2741906) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Azizi Also, Lox, since I don't believe that you live in the USA, maybe you're not aware of the recent spate of publicity in the United States over famous (infamous?) people or corporations giving non-apology apologies such as your "I would like to apologize if anyone has taken offence from my comments" statement. Here's one example: April 9, 2007 Imus: From Non-Apology Apologies to Non-Excuse Excuses Posted by James Poniewozik :The needle on the Don Imus Contriti-o-meter took another wild set of swings back and forth this morning. Last Thursday, after having referred to the Rutgers women's basketball team as "nappy-headed hos," the radio/MSNBC host said that anyone who was offended should "relax" about a line that was meant to be funny. Friday morning, after it became increasingly apparent that people were not quite so ready to relax, he offered a more straightforward apology. This morning, after a weekend of repeated calls for his firing and unsympathetic news reports that were apparently insufficiently understanding for his liking, he offered another apology. With "context." It was a bizarre two-step he danced, saying there was no excuse for what he said--then offering up excuses. It's no excuse but... I've hosted sick minority children at Imus Ranch! It's no excuse but... I joke like this all the time! It's no excuse but... I supported Harold Ford! It's no excuse but... I advocated for sickle-cell anemia research! And--his tone gets petulant here--"No black journalist called me. Nobody ever called me about any of that!" There were more bizarre defenses too: "I wasn't drunk," he said at one point, as if calling women "nappy-headed hos" while sober is actually better. Also, "I'm not some angry, raving nut on a nightclub stage," implying that there's a difference between him and Michael Richards. Which there is: Richards did not have the same extensive public history of bigoted comments for which he was excused again and again. Imus closed, though, on a meek, pleading note. "I'm a good person," he said. "But I said a bad thing." Fair enough. It is possible to be a good person and yet say bad things. It is also possible to be a good person who has a history of saying equally, hatefully bad things, over and over, while being excused again and again by the pols and journos who rely on your show for publicity. And it is finally possible to be a good person who, when you think about it, should maybe not have a live national radio show." http://tunedin.blogs.time.com/2007/04/09/imus_from_nonapology_apologies/ Here's another example: "Amid picketing and the angry response to the tasteless cartoon regarding the gunning down of a chimpanzee the Post has issued an "apology" on its own unique terms that smacks hard of a non-apology, to wit, an editorial on the Post's website was "meant to mock" the stimulus bill promoted by President Obama but "to those who were offended by the image, we apologize." http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-Post-O-Reilly-and-Non-by-Bill-Hare-090221-335.html The Post, O'Reilly and Non-Apology Apologies by Bill Hare *"Post" here refers to the Washington Post. |
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09 Oct 09 - 08:12 AM (#2741908) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Azizi Here's that hyperlink from my previous post: http://tunedin.blogs.time.com/2007/04/09/imus_from_nonapology_apologies/ |
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09 Oct 09 - 08:28 AM (#2741918) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Azizi Here's an excerpt from an article on non-apology apologies: The Most Common Mistake: A Non-Apology Apology -Joshua Uebergang "It has become a trend in public apologies to say sorry if you hurt someone. The apology is dependent on the condition someone was hurt and implies the offended has something wrong with oneself. Some more examples: - "I'm sorry for not mowing the lawn even though it does not require cutting." - "I apologize if I hurt anyone." - "Please take my apology if you were offended by what I said." To show you how easy and delicate apologizing is, check out this apology: "I'm sorry I lied to you. I feel guilty that I've let you down." All you need to do is replace the first sentence with "I'm sorry if I lied to you" and you've destroyed your apology by making it a non-apology apology. Do you see what kind of apology a non-apology apology is now? We use non-apology apologies to take the heat off ourselves to keep the offended person quite [sic]. It puts the onus on those we upset by implying the victim has something wrong. There is no remorse and sorry similar to what I explained with how most young children apologize. It is something you say to please the other person while protecting yourself. You try to shy away from guilt and responsibility by using a non-apology apology." http://ezinearticles.com/?Most-Common-Mistake-People-Make-in-Apologizing---The-Non-Apology-Apology&id=570890 |
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09 Oct 09 - 08:39 AM (#2741930) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Lox "in my opinion, the fact that you abhor such vile comments needs to be explicitly indicated afterwards." I disagree for two reasons. 1, because if you read my "smokey" post in its entirety with the full context included it is very clear not only that I do not agree with those comments but that I hold a disparaging view of them - hence the satirical slant. 2, because if I were a satirist I would not want to underestimate the intelligence of my audience. Explaining it in the way you suggest would be like explaining a joke ... "what's black and white and red all over ... a newspaper ... you see a newspaper is printed in black and white, but it is 'read' all over so I've played a word game with the words 'red' and 'read'" Can you imagine if a stand up comic did that after every joke? - He might satirize the idea as I just have but if he did it in all seriousness he would be as much fun to go and watch as a sleeping accountant. Tommy Tiernan is a satirist - when you go to see him you expect satire - he should feel no obligation to explain, after each satirical observation that it was a satirical observation. The fact that he is a satirist and puts on shows featuring satire is enough of a clue that his comments on stage are likely to be satirical ones. It is loosely comparable to going to see a singer live and expecting the artist to explain that he has just sung you a song. But most importantly, just because you don't think a joke isn't funny it doesn't follow that it's offensive. You may not have found my satirical slur against smokey funny, but all that says is that I am not a very good satirist and also that you don't see whats so funny about it. That has nothing to do with whether or not my comments are offensive. I don't expect anyone to find my version funny. I do expect you to acknowledge 100% that there is categorically nothing for me to apologize for or any need for me to clarify my actual view any further. It is important to be clear about what constitutes racism, and satire that lampoons racism does not fall into that category. |
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09 Oct 09 - 08:45 AM (#2741936) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: GUEST,tim edwards I've just come across this thread and had no knowledge of Tommy Tiernan until I saw a live show of his last year. I found him at times very funny and at others too OTT for me. However I write to throw some light on what I think is his approach to comedy, whether you like it or not. He appears to believe as a principle that no subject is too sensitive for comedy and during the performance I saw refered to recent events where extremists had used mentally disabled people as suicide bombers, and then said that even he couldn't find anything funny to say about that -- pause -- wicked grin -- 'but there again' -- and launched into a pretty good joke about an impossible subject. I strongly suspect that a lot of his extreme humour comes from this angle -- you may not like it but you should be very careful about banning it. |
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09 Oct 09 - 08:48 AM (#2741937) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Lox "All you need to do is replace the first sentence with "I'm sorry if I lied to you" and you've destroyed your apology by making it a non-apology apology." This is not the same thing. I choose whether i lie to you or not. I don't choose whether you feel offended or not. I'm sorry if any Vegetarians out there are offended, but I had the most delicious roast beef yesterday and I'd like to recommend it to anyone. Why am I sorry? I haven't done anything wrong in my opinion, and i hold fast to that. However, I understand that there might be someone for whom the idea of having roast beef recommended to them is offensive, and being considerate I am happy to acknowledge that my comments may have offended them. Rather than take up an adversarial stance and tell someone that they are wrong to be offended by my beef related comments I pay respect to them and their feelings while also remaiining steadfast in my belief that I am not doing anything wrong. So. I still believe that satire is not only right but of immense value. I respect that not everyone enjoys it. I realistically expect that some may be offende by it. I am sorry if they are upset. I do not believe i did anything wrong. |
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09 Oct 09 - 08:48 AM (#2741938) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: GUEST,tim edwards Am member, not guest, but not linking in properly at the minute. |
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09 Oct 09 - 09:11 AM (#2741959) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Lox To add to my last comments, I completely accept that some people make offensive comments either knowingly and deliberately or thoughtlessly and uncaringly and that there are some who do this and then get away with it by saying "Im sorry if ..." But I suppose the answer is to scrutinize their reasons. If someone attempte to change the subject and start talking about their good points then that suggests they are avoiding the issue. If someone responds explicitly to the iissue and gives a resonable answer then their answer should be treated seriously. But it does not follow that if somebody says "I'm sorry if ..." that their apology is insincere or that they are getting away with anything. Tommy Tiernans comments are consistent with the approach he takes - in his job - to all issues. He believes in satire and applies it across the board, including to himself and his own people and does not discriminate on grounds of race, culture or creed. He uses satire to deal with any issue. That is to be commended and is a sign of courage in my eyes. |
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09 Oct 09 - 09:17 AM (#2741962) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Azizi Lox, since you quoted me, although you didn't address me by name, I believe that your 09 Oct 09 - 08:39 AM post was directed to me. I'll say this as clearly as I can-I believe that satire can be offensive. And I believe that Tommy Tiernan's "satire" is very offensive. I agree that "just because you don't think a joke isn't funny it doesn't follow that it's offensive.". The words and/or intonations, the mannerisms, the manner of dress/costumes, and/or other performance activities can make something offensive. For example I consider blackface performances to be offensive regardless of what the person is saying or doing-including dancing. Notice that I'm speaking for myself and no one else. I have the right to say that I find something offensive without people assuming that I'm dictating to other people what they must consider offensive. ** It seems to me that people from the UK use a different definition for "race" than people from the USA. Since I don't consider Jewish people to be a separate race, I don't consider Tommy Tiernan's words to be racist. I consider them to be anti-Semitic. Notice that I didn't say that Tommy Tiernan hates Jewish people or that he is a racist. I don't know whether either of these statements are true. ** And Lox, speaking of dictating, with regard to your sentence "I do expect you to acknowledge 100% that there is categorically nothing for me to apologize for or any need for me to clarify my actual view any further.", if that comment is directed to me, I must say this: I don't expect anyone to do anything that he or she doesn't choose to do. And if you or anyone else expects me to do something then that's on you (as we say in my 'hood). Lox, I agree with you on a number of issues. The fact that I strongly disagree with you on this issue does not mean that you are a bad person or that I am. And it certainly doesn't mean that I think that you are a racist or are an anti-Semite. To be unequivocable about that point-Lox, I absolutely don't think that you are a racist and I don't think you are an anti-Semite. However, I definitely disagree with you about Tiernan's act, and I definitely believe that your apology was a non-apology. And having said that, I'm exiting from this thread. |
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09 Oct 09 - 10:17 AM (#2742000) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Lox "For example I consider blackface performances to be offensive regardless of what the person is saying or doing-including dancing." Blackface performance is not satire. It is racial caricature. I also think it is offensive. I think Harry Connick Junior was very restrained recently in Australia and if I had been there in his stead I would not have shaken the show hosts hand, but the minute the dance act had ended i would have verbally torn them to shreds, then torn the show to shreds then walked out in disgust. To conclude that tommy tiernan is anti semitic is to remain wilfully ignorant of the context of his comments. He is very clearly satirizing anti-semitic attitudes and therefore opposing anti-semitism as is 100% consistent with his job as a professional satirist. By your rationale his comments about the Irish are anti-Irish which is clearly patent nonsense. As for the issue of whether or not I am racist or anti semitic, I never had any consideration about whether you thought I was or wasn't. That has never been a consideration in my mind or on this thread until you mentioned it. In other words I know you don't think that, but i wouldn't be worried anyway because i know I am not anyway. On the subject of what I expect, my point wass that it is obvious that my example of how one might compose a piece of satire does not express any view about smokey let alone an offensive one. It demonstrates how satire can work. Here is the important point. Tommy tiernan at no point expressed ANY view about jews. Neither did he at any point laugh at the holocaust. If he had done either of those two thing s he could be called anti-semitic. What he did was use an exxaggerated example of anti-semitism as part of a deeper context. Azizi, it is not like you to disregard a well made point so as to cling on to a point of view to which you are loyal. It is important to ensure that murderers do not walk the streets. But we have to give suspected murderers a fair trial before we condemn them or even label them. Tommy Tiernan has not expresse3d an anti semitic viewpoint so there is no evidence that he is anti-semitic. He referred to an anti-semitic attitude. I think I should probably drop out at this point too. |
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09 Oct 09 - 07:11 PM (#2742458) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Jim Carroll There is no justification whatever in describing Teirnan's racist garbage as 'satire' - his apologists have almost totally based their support on humour being above politics and therefore not answerable to good taste or decency. Two American Jews who complained about his act were told to fuck off, and referred to as "Christ Murderers" - no ambiguity there. The only mystery in all this is why Teirnen wasn't banged up for publicly inciting race hatred. It always seems to me that racists come in two main varieties - the Teirnen/Connick lot who abuse their place in the public eye by spouting their filth, and the spineless ones who (armed with phrases like "whingeing liberal), crawl out of the closet momentarily to encourage what they haven't the bottle to support openly themselves - plenty of examples of the latter here. Jim Carroll |
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09 Oct 09 - 07:21 PM (#2742461) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Smokey. Best laugh I've had in a while, Lox.. But what's the answer - legislate against humour which is beyond a certain level of complexity just in case someone is offended, or allow it educate those who can be so educated? Excuse me while I go and bang my head on a wall.. |
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09 Oct 09 - 07:23 PM (#2742463) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Smokey. Or learn to do proper HTML, like what grown-ups do. |
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09 Oct 09 - 07:42 PM (#2742473) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Spleen Cringe You know, there are a whole raft or comedians around these days who think that white male heterosexual middle class sniping at easy targets passes for satire, intelligent comedy and clever post-modern bollocks. Sadly there's also an entire raft of decent, liberal minded, intelligent people, who probably think they are caring and compassionate and progressive who take it upon themselves to defend these nasty little shits who are making money out of putting down people who are generally being shat on enough already. Arseholes like Frankie Boyle and Jimmy Carr come to mind. Tommy Teirnan might think he's being clever when he says that comedy is an arena where everything is up for grabs and nothing is taboo, but even making jokes about the deaths of six million innocent people "in context" only shows the man is at best a boorish, insensitive, self obsessed arsehole. No doubt all the people who think they are so sophisticated and hip are going to come on and tell me why it's suddenly okay to make jokes about the holocaust. What sickens me is that some of them are the same ones who are jumping up and down about the odious BNP. This crap from Teirnan is as bad as anything the BNP come out with and Teirnan needs to get his shit seriously sorted out. I wonder if any of you could tell me the context in which jokes about the holocaust are acceptable? I assume when none of your jewish friends are in the room, for starters. |
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09 Oct 09 - 07:45 PM (#2742475) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Spleen Cringe And what I meant to say if I hadn't hit the submit button early... You know, there are a whole raft of comedians around these days who think that white-male-heterosexual-middle-class sniping at easy targets passes for satire, for intelligent comedy and for clever post-modernism. Sadly there's also an entire raft of decent, liberal minded, intelligent people, who probably think they are caring and compassionate and progressive, yet who take it upon themselves to defend these nasty little shits who are making money out of putting down other people who are generally being shat on enough already. Arseholes like Frankie Boyle and Jimmy Carr come to mind. Tommy Teirnan might think he's being clever when he says that comedy is an arena where everything is up for grabs and nothing is taboo, but even making jokes about the deaths of six million innocent people "in context" only shows the man is at best a boorish, insensitive, self obsessed arsehole. No doubt all the people who think they are so sophisticated and hip are going to come on and tell me why it's suddenly okay to make jokes about the holocaust. What sickens me is that some of them are the same ones who are jumping up and down about the odious BNP. This crap from Teirnan is as bad as anything the BNP come out with. Teirnan clearly needs to get his shit seriously sorted out. I wonder if any of you could tell me the "context" in which jokes about the holocaust are acceptable? I assume when none of your jewish friends are in the room, for starters. Any other pointers? |
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09 Oct 09 - 07:49 PM (#2742479) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Smokey. I don't think much to the implication that Jews can't understand satire. |
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09 Oct 09 - 09:10 PM (#2742529) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Peace Anyone notice smoke in the background? |
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09 Oct 09 - 11:10 PM (#2742579) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Smokey. Get thee behind me, Satan.. |
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10 Oct 09 - 03:24 AM (#2742637) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Spleen Cringe "I don't think much to the implication that Jews can't understand satire." And that's exactly the kind of smug response I'm talking about. You really think Teirnan does satire? |
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10 Oct 09 - 06:38 AM (#2742689) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Paul Burke Perhaps it's part of the shift in the Irish self-image. Back in the 70's, they seem to have thought of themselves as irreverent, a bit fey, artistic, generous, innocent, perhaps even secretly enjoying the repression of the local breed of religion- they were (perhaps still are) the biggest per-capita givers to charity in Europe. Since the EU economic boom another side perhaps is taking over- epitomised by Ryanair, and certain Irish football figures in Britain. We're successful, feck you, too many immigrants, look at the price of my house. None of which are the sole property of the Irish, but none of the previous list were either. The man's clearly an ignorant turd. |
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10 Oct 09 - 07:18 AM (#2742699) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Jim Carroll An update on this from today's Irish Times "Tommy Tiernan dropped from Canadian tour Comedian Tommy Tiernan has been dropped from a major comedy tour of Canada as controversy continues over recent comments he made about Jews. The comedian was to perform on the Just for Laughs tour from October 28th to November 15th. However, in a statement, the organisers said: "After speaking with him [Tiernan] over the last week, we agreed that it was in the best interest of everyone involved that he withdraws from the 2009 tour." The statement said Tiernan regretted that the comments he made attracted so much controversy." It would appear that, if the racist apologists have difficulty in recognising racism when it leaps up and bites them in the arse, Tiernan's employers dont seem to have that trouble. Jim Carroll |
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10 Oct 09 - 09:40 AM (#2742762) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Lox Well if context has nothing to do with the meaning of his "tirade" then we can only conclude from all this that Tommy Tiernan also hates the Irish and that I hate Smokey. Sorry old chap. |
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10 Oct 09 - 09:58 AM (#2742770) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Lox "There is no justification whatever in describing Teirnan's racist garbage as 'satire'" Actually, I have shown quite clearly that it is extremely unlikely that it wasn't satire for the following reasons. 1, he is a satirist. (big clue) 2, he has answered his critics direcly and not shirked the accusations against him but met them head on and explined the meaning and motivation behind the SELECTIVE quote for which he is being condemned. "his apologists have almost totally based their support on humour being above politics" 1, I am no apologist. He did nothing wrong. So there is no need to provide an excuse/apology. 2, If you reread, I have not said that humour is above politics, Ihave said that satire is a useful political weapon. Jim - you're ignoring the substance of the debate and trotting out the same stuff without making any attempt to understand anything that's been said to you. Here's a quote from your first post. "He then went on to talk about two Americans who had approached him after a gig to complain about his jokes: "But these Jews, these f**king Jew c**ts come up to me. F**king Christ-killing bastards..."" So this was part of his show? So he was telling a story? So there are no actual Jewish Americans claiming that he insulted them? So we know Tommy Tiernan said this but we don't know if it actually happened? So the following statement is your invention. "Two American Jews who complained about his act were told to fuck off, and referred to as "Christ Murderers" - no ambiguity there." You follow up with "The only mystery in all this is why Teirnen wasn't banged up for publicly inciting race hatred." The answer is simple. He wasn't. He was lampooning/satirizing/parodying anti-semitic attitudes. One thing which neither Jim, Azizi, Me or anyone else on this thread has provided so far is a link to the actual show so we can form a judgement based on EVIDENCE. But Jim isn't bothered with evidence - he isn't even bothered to provide an argument. You come across like a rabble rouser trying to whip up an angry mob. I have no time for kangaroo courts nor vigilante Justice. |
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10 Oct 09 - 10:31 AM (#2742776) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Jim Carroll Actually, I have shown quite clearly that it is extremely unlikely that it wasn't satire for the following reasons. Actually - you havent't shown anything particularly clearly, except that you are prepared to accept racism as entertainment. "he is a satirist. (big clue)" No he isn't - he is a 'comedian' who relies on foul-motherd abuse for effect. "he has answered his critics direcly" He hasn't explained anything - he (and his apologists) have claimed that humour is above good taste and decency. "I am no apologist." Yes you are - where do we go from here? "He did nothing wrong." Yes he did - he was racially abuse to Jews on stage. "So there is no need to provide an excuse/apology. So why did he apologise? "satire is a useful political weapon." Satire is indeed a powerful weapon - in skilled hands - here there is no effort to be satirical; just a bid for cheap laughs via racism (just like Bernard Manning et al). "Jim - you're ignoring the substance of the debate and trotting out the same stuff without making any attempt to understand anything that's been said to you." I've understood your point perfectly - I've spent a lifetime arguing with racists and their apologists. "So he was telling a story?" Whether it was or wasn't makes not the slightest difference - what he said was racist. However, some press reports claim that his 'joke' was based on an actual incident. His act was racist. "He was lampooning/satirizing/parodying anti-semitic attitudes." On what do you base this - and if it was, what has his act been pulled and why did he feel it necessary to apologise - satirists don't do that sort of thing. "On thing which neither Jim, Azizi, Me or anyone else on this thread has provided so far is a link to the actual show so we can form a judgement based on EVIDENCE." So on what basis are you defending his act - I'm basing my opinion on the fact that the language he used was overtly racially abusive, and I've seen his act before - no signs of 'satire' in my experience, just run-of-the-mill comedy? "You come across like a rabble rouser trying to whip up an angry mob." And you come across as a closet racist who lacks the bottle to come out of the closet (I have read some of your posts in the past). Jim Carroll |
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10 Oct 09 - 10:33 AM (#2742777) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Lox Well here you go folks. It's time to make up your own minds. It's on dodgy ground and I would decribe it as misjudged. I wouldn't describe it as evidence that he's an anti-semite. It happened in a press conference. He was asked if he had ever been accused of being anti-semitic. He said yes, he had been once, when he used to tell a joke about who killed Jesus, to which the punchline was "well it wasn't the f***ing mexicans" He said that two jewish people had complained about this to him. That is as far as the factual story aboout the two jewish people goes. They were never actually told to f*** off. The rest is him reacting to the accusation of being anti semitic. The way he makes his point is over the top and he was being unrealistic to think that there would not be repercussions. But his point was "anti semitism doesn't sound like that, it sounds like this" He's right, anti semitism does sound like that and as a result there will be many who conclude that he is an anti semite. I'm not one of them. CLICKY |
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10 Oct 09 - 10:42 AM (#2742785) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Lox "And you come across as a closet racist who lacks the bottle to come out of the closet" Provide evidence of this or provide a retraction and an apology. |
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10 Oct 09 - 11:08 AM (#2742803) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Well, now I've seen the clip. I genuinely don't see any satire. I see a comedian feeling 'safe' enough to tell an anti-semitic joke about the Jewish Christ killer, in front of a sympathetic and complicit audience. Fucking racist Catholic cunts! Fucking bunch of child molesting Jew murdering religious fanatics.. |
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10 Oct 09 - 11:34 AM (#2742817) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: MGM·Lion And of course it was stinking Roman Catholic Papists [Spanish ones, but the brainwashed Irish don't want to know about it either, do they?] who tortured and murdered millions thru their Holy Office Inquisition, wasn't it? I mean, it sure·as·shit wasn't the Seventh Day Adventists or the Moderators of the Free Church of Scotland was it? ***[Please note: I hereby appoint myself an official satirist - so I hope all you Papist idiots out there are laughing your bollocks off at my satirical wit and overwhelming irony.]*** Honestly & seriously, now tho, Lox. You are obviously an intelligent person, and I don't agree with Jim when he denounces you as a racist who hasn't the bottle to come out of the closet. I am sure you are truly and genuinely nothing of the sort. But can you really not see how much FACILE SPECIAL PLEADING goes into this claim that, as Tiernan is a *known satirist*, nothing he says is allowed to be grounds for objection - not even that completely nauseating interpolation about leaving teeth & glasses outside? O, hohoho & hahaha & teeheehee, why there is satirical, there is ironic, there is witty - what sort of humourless killjoy could fail to laugh at that!!! |
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10 Oct 09 - 11:36 AM (#2742820) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: menderfire9 Wow, I don't at all like the Catholic slander thing just said .... no, no, no! |
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10 Oct 09 - 11:55 AM (#2742836) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: MGM·Lion Then I apologise unreservedly: my 'only being satirical' plea clearly didn't take — ANY MORE THAN TIERNAN'S EVER SHOULD HAVE DONE. Mind you, I do still feel the Church has more to apologise for, even after all this time, over the Inquisition than the Jews have over the Crucifixion — that was the Romans, the legal authority for the time-being appointed; except that Pilate bottled out and, literally we are told, washed his hands of the whole matter to move the responsibility on to someone else - ie Jesus's opponents within what was HIS OWN FAITH, not the whole of that community by any means. While the whole Church was complicit in the Inquisition — Galileo's forced retraction didn't happen in Spain, did it? |
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10 Oct 09 - 12:34 PM (#2742861) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Here's one theory. Apparently Tiernan is a known comedic critic of Catholicism. Tiernan's audience appeared to be Irish. There has been a long history of Catholic "Jew-killer" anti-Semitism, including complicity in the Holocaust during WWII. *Perhaps* he was satirising Catholic anti-Semitism, before an Irish audience who would recognise it? I'm not convinced, but offer it up as a suggestion. |
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10 Oct 09 - 01:24 PM (#2742886) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Jim Carroll "Provide evidence of this or provide a retraction and an apology." As I said in reply to your PM - your defence of a racist stand-up commedian who has recently been transmogrified into a "satirist" by his supporters is proof enough for me - to quote your good self - "no apology needed". We can only guess as to whether Tiernen is a genuine anti-semite or just an opportunist comedian getting a cheap laugh, but we can know that - "Six million? I would have got 10 or 12 million out of that. No f**kng problem! F**k them" and "Two at a time, they would have gone. Hold hands, get in there! Leave us your teeth and your glasses" and "These Jews, these f**king Jew c**ts.... F**king Christ-killing bastards..." are racist statements and anybody who supprts them or in any way attempts to excuse them is either supporting or, at the very least, excusing racism. Jim Carroll |
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10 Oct 09 - 02:41 PM (#2742927) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Spleen Cringe Crow Sister, MtheGM - excellent posts both of you. The only evidence we have that Teirnan is a "satirist" is that he says he is. I suspect he wouldn't know satire if it put it's hand on his thigh in the vestry. |
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10 Oct 09 - 02:57 PM (#2742941) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Lox Jim Carroll made the folloeing comment about me. "you come across as a closet racist who lacks the bottle to come out of the closet" I made the following request to Jim Carol on here and by PM "Provide evidence of this or provide a retraction and an apology." His response was. "your defence of a racist stand-up commedian who has recently been transmogrified into a "satirist" by his supporters is proof enough for me" I see. It's just as well that the courts aren't run by the likes of Jim Carroll as he clearly has no concept of what constitutes evidence or racism. In addition, I would add that until "I" posted the actual video, noone here, including myself and Jim had seen the video. Which means Jim didn't know the facts before passing judgement on either me or TT. Now that I have seen the video, I can knowledgeably say 3 things. 1. that TT's comments referring to the holocaust were decidedly dodgy and that what crow sister says about feeling safe amongst a complicit audience in comfortable environs is probably true. TT needs to face up to this. 2. I can also say though that while crow sister is justified in finding his comments objectionable, she misses the point about why if she goes on to apparently retaliate against the Irish on behalf of jews. The thing that is objectionable about TT's comments is their crassness, not the fact that it is jews who are on the receiving end. So to apparently retaliate is to tar herself with the same brush. And if she wishes to respond that her comments were made "in context" then she must allow the same leeway for TT. You can't have your cake and eat it. 3. It is clear that Jim's original post is not accurate, nor his later assertion that "he told the americans to f*** off" These are fabrications of Jim's. This is revealing about his position and argumentative style, and renders his pathetic righteousness utterly lacking in credibility. While it is clear that TT crossed a line and dealt in offensive material, it is also clear that Jim Carroll is prone to making judgements BEFORE being in possession of the facts. Not that he is bothered about inconveniences like checking facts. |
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10 Oct 09 - 03:01 PM (#2742946) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Smokey. Perhaps someone could explain why I didn't take the least bit of offence from Lox's tirade about me? It was very offensive stuff - how come I'm not offended? Lox trusted my intelligence, which I took as a compliment, and I trusted his motives. Trust, not ignorant suspicion. If you don't 'get' satire, fine - avoid it by all means, but don't try to spoil it for those who appreciate it. Calling people names such as 'closet racist' just because you can't understand what they are talking about says a lot more about you than it does about them, and does nothing to alleviate the real problems of prejudice and 'racism'. Crow Sister - I think you have a good point there; he did appear to be drawing some inspiration from the mediaeval attitude of the Catholic Church. |
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10 Oct 09 - 03:07 PM (#2742961) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Richard Bridge 100. Terry must be out |
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10 Oct 09 - 03:30 PM (#2742983) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Lox Smokey, If there was satire in his comment it was very much about an Irish stereotype. The most obvious Irish stereotype referred to is that of a shady north Dublin Gurrier as drawls in a hackneyed north dublin accent "leave your teeth and glasses at the door" TT isn't a north side Dub. A typical North Dub stereotype is that of the 10 year old kid who says to the man parking his car "give us ten pounds and I'll look after your car" - meaning if you don't give me ten pounds I'll let the air out of your tyres while you're gone. It's a stereotype that Many Irish recognize. As such an Irish audience would indeed be safer as they would get the joke. However, to expect anyone unfamiliar with tht sterotype to get it was unrealistic, and more importantly, his comments were fuelled by a feeling of anger against his american critics, which does indeed tip the balance into a more cynical context. One thing is for sure - he made a big mistake!! |
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10 Oct 09 - 03:37 PM (#2742989) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Peace Other than "GUEST,Den", there are no Nazi supporters on this thread. Perhaps we all might back up a bit and see why we're getting so nasty with each other. Smokey is a damned good friend who has been tireless in 'rocking' the BNP boat on Mudcat. Lox has always been a voice of reason. So has Jim, Spleen Cringe, Azizi and many other people who've posted. The charge here is not whether anyone (other than "GUEST,Den") posting is racist, but whether Tommy Tiernan is a racist. Time will tell about that. For sure he's not much of a comedian. The question here is/should be whether TT knows satire worth a shit. There will continue to be division about that. But to allow that division to rupture friendships is foolish, imo. |
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10 Oct 09 - 03:43 PM (#2742996) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Smokey. That all sounds right enough to me, Lox. And thank you, Bruce, I appreciate that. |
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10 Oct 09 - 03:52 PM (#2743001) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Jim Carroll The facts are: "Six million? I would have got 10 or 12 million out of that. No f**kng problem! F**k them" and "Two at a time, they would have gone. Hold hands, get in there! Leave us your teeth and your glasses" and "These Jews, these f**king Jew c**ts.... F**king Christ-killing bastards..." and: "Tommy Tiernan dropped from Canadian tour" Everything else is taking sides. I have become increasingly fascinated at the way some people scramble for the nearest high horse the minute they find the ground sliding from under their arguments. Here we have somebody happily accusing those of us who find racism offensive, of being "a typical whingeing liberal" and "a rabble rouser trying to whip up an angry mob", yet apparently outraged when refered to as a closet racist for supporting the above racist invective. I object strongly when being referred to as any sort of liberal when it comes to racism, particularly in a situation where the disease appears to be spreading - extremist yes - liberal certainly f***ing not - to borrow a phrase from our comedic friend. ".....passing judgement on either me or TT" Interesting shoulder you've chosen to throw your arm around. Jim Carroll |
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10 Oct 09 - 04:12 PM (#2743023) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Smokey. No-one is supporting the words Tiernan said, Jim, especially not him. You're the one repeating them over and over again out of context. They are more offensive and damaging when you do that than when he said it in context. I respect that you don't like Tiernan or his humour, but all you are achieving here is free publicity for him. |
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10 Oct 09 - 04:21 PM (#2743033) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) "while crow sister is justified in finding his comments objectionable, she misses the point about why if she goes on to apparently retaliate against the Irish on behalf of jews." Not a retaliation Lox. Being half Irish myself, I have no anti-Irish sentiment. But I'm sure I don't need to explain that. My own anti-Catholic "joke", was intended as a form of satirical mimicry of comedians who maintain they are 'satirists' but are actually making highly debatable (if not completely failed) attempts at 'satire'. The anti-Catholicism, seemed pertinent in context as the most readily available analogous *mirroring* of Teirans own anti-Semitic joke. Maybe it was a bit risky, but hey I'm an edgy kind of humourist! And as you said upthread, if we have to explain our jokes, they wouldn't be so funny.. Of course, I'm actually neither genuinely attempting to be funny, expressing 'retaliatory' anti-Irish sentiment, nor even satirising anti-Catholic sentiment, but attempting to mirror or satirise bad satire by using the most obvious equivalent religious stereotype to hand, in order to emphasise my point by using an analagous counterpoint. As my satirical "joke" a) wasn't actually funny, b) called upon an equivalent mirroring racist and religious stereotype, c) and evidently also needed explaining. I hoped that I might have illustrated a point. It failed, nevertheless that was my intended purpose - not mere 'retaliation'. Anyhoo, just to reassure folk, I won't be breaking into stand-up comedy anytime soon... |
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10 Oct 09 - 04:28 PM (#2743042) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Lox "Here we have somebody happily accusing those of us who find racism offensive, of being "a typical whingeing liberal"" Here, Jim quotes from my "tirade" against Smokey. This presumably is the only evidence he could find to support his assertion that I am a closet racist. For those who wish to clarify whether or not I have something against "whingeing liberals" you may do so further back in this thread at my post of: Date: 09 Oct 09 - 06:54 AM Once you have established that I actually like and share the same views as the alleged "whingeing liberal" in question, you may if you wish examine the substance of Jims accusation. Jim - I'm not outraged, I'm just getting to know you. |
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10 Oct 09 - 04:43 PM (#2743054) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Smokey. You have to admire anyone with the special power to see through closets though.. How else can you spot a 'closet racist'? It's a bit of a nonsensical insult really.. |
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10 Oct 09 - 04:48 PM (#2743062) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Come off it Jim, Lox isn't a racist. He's anything but that. He's giving the benefit of the doubt to a supposed 'satirist'. I personally think he isn't correct in seeing 'satire' in this guys act. I don't find it there myself, though I can see why he might see it as such - hence my post offering the theory that TT was *possibly* satirising Irish Catholic anti-Semitic sentiment before a specifically Irish audience who *would* recognise it as such. But Lox's posts make it blindingly clear that he's no racist. |
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10 Oct 09 - 04:58 PM (#2743072) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Peace I 'know' Lox well enough to say the following: He is NOT racist at all. Period. |
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10 Oct 09 - 05:01 PM (#2743074) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Lox Crow sister, You did the same as sugarfoot Jack. And you did the same thing as I did with smokey. You took an objectionable comment and you used it to make a point. I understand your point. I know you don't have a problem with the Irish. But however convoluted your reasons as compared to Tommy Tiernans for his holocaust rant, or mine for my anti smokey rant, or Sugarfoot Jacks for his Irish rant, it still remains true that you used an example of an objectionable comment to make a point and that at no time were you expressing any view about the Irish as being Jew Haters in the process. You said: "Maybe it was a bit risky, but hey I'm an edgy kind of humourist! And as you said upthread, if we have to explain our jokes, they wouldn't be so funny.." If that's a fair comment, does it only apply to you? I think there are grounds to be suspicious of TT and they are based in the fact that his rant had its roots in his resentment against being told what he can and can't say, so there was anger being directed against the American Jews in question, they were the butt of the joke for that reason and their jewish faith was a central part of it. However, it wasn't the fact that it was someone Jewish saying it that provoked him, as is evidenced by the fact that he slates Frankie Boyle for the same reasons and in a similar way. So while he went too far, it isn't accurate to call him an anti-semite. |
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10 Oct 09 - 05:11 PM (#2743085) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) ""Maybe it was a bit risky, but hey I'm an edgy kind of humourist! And as you said upthread, if we have to explain our jokes, they wouldn't be so funny.." If that's a fair comment, does it only apply to you?" Sorry Lox, I was taking the piss out of my own anti-Catholic joke man. It wasn't intended as a 'fair comment'. It was intended as a ironic comment, pointing out the problem with needing to explain "edgy" jokes in the first place. Actually I can't even remember now what I meant - I've had too much cider. Maybe I'll try and pick up the thread when sober! Otherwise, I'm doubly definitely not going into fuckin' stand-up... |
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10 Oct 09 - 05:16 PM (#2743092) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Lox Me neither!!!!! Thanks for your support by the way. Everyone! |
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10 Oct 09 - 05:34 PM (#2743105) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Smokey. No problem Lox, and I thank you. |
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10 Oct 09 - 06:39 PM (#2743123) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Lox Looking back I can't help make an amusing observation. I'm amazed at how many posters have in all sincerity made the point that it isn't justifiable to use extreme examples of offensive language to make ones point ... ... and then illustrated their point by using an example of offensive language. Sugarfoot Jack, Crow sister and MtheGM, you have all argued your cases clearly, convincingly and effectively and your arguments have been strengthened considerably by your use of examples of objectionable language in a deeper context ... ... and by demonstrating the power and clarity of such a device you have shown that objectionable language, even on the subject of the holocaust, can have a context in which its use is justifiable. The question remains as to whether TT used it in a justifiable way. For me it's too close to call. |
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10 Oct 09 - 07:52 PM (#2743170) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Smokey. He obviously went too far for some people, but that's not exactly an innovation in comedy.. I like him, and I don't think I'm a 'racist'. I don't think he's one either, from what I've seen. Everyone's entitled to their opinion I suppose, particularly me :-) |
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10 Oct 09 - 08:33 PM (#2743183) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: The Sandman I have to say I found him very funny,on the subject of the English,and the Cork accent,although his cork accent is only half right,when is he going to do Cavan?now thats a really funny accent. |
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10 Oct 09 - 09:17 PM (#2743213) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Declan Late at night, so I probably should wait until tomorrow to post, but here goes... Seeing the youtube video and the remarks in context makes them seem a little less offensive than they origingally seemed in Black and White on a page. However I still think he crossed a line and I think it would have been better if he hadn't said those things whether he agreed wtth them or not. I don't think that the holocaust is funny under any circustances, and making the comments whether he agreed with them or not had a major potential to offend. Tommy Tiernan is no idiot and must have been aware of this potential when he said what he did. I think Lox has basically agreed with this position in more recent posts. It scares me that the crowd seemed to find what he said hillarious. It also scared me that he was capable of thinking some of the things he said whether he meant them or not. Can't help wondering why the questioner asked the question in the way that he did and whether there was some orchestration involved in this. My basic position is unaltered, it was at best a silly thing to make these remarks, whether they reflect his views or not. If anyone with racist views takes succour in them on the basis that TT and others support their views, this is not a good outcome. |
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10 Oct 09 - 10:52 PM (#2743248) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: MGM·Lion 'MtheGM, you have ... argued your case... clearly, convincingly and effectively and your arguments have been strengthened considerably by your use of examples of objectionable language in a deeper context ... ... and by demonstrating the power and clarity of such a device you have shown that objectionable language, even on the subject of the holocaust, can have a context in which its use is justifiable.' I don't think I have, Lox; BECAUSE IN THIS RESPONSE YOU HAVE IGNORED MY TAILPIECE ADDENDUM THAT THE CLAIMS OF SATIRE & CONTEXT are a *pusillanimous, facile EVASION*; which we can all use at any time if we want [which, as you admit, Crow Sister & Sugarfoot & I have all demo'd] — BUT just saying, "Hey, I'm a licesnsed officially authorised SATIRIST & that's the CONTEXT I am working in" actually 'JUSTIFIES' FUCK-ALL. |
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11 Oct 09 - 04:53 AM (#2743334) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Jim Carroll If I have got Lox wrong - of course I apologise - he wasn't the target of this thread anyway, it was scumbag Tiernan, along with Manning, Davidson and all the other scumbags who abuse their privileged position in the public eye to display their low-forehead mentality with racist humour (sic). The first time Tiernan emerged as a 'satirist' was in defence of his racist outburst, and to accept that excuse is, to my mind, excusing his outburst or being extremely náive - take your pick. As for closet racism being a "nonsensical insult" - go and thumb your way through similar threads and see how many posting begin "I'm not a racist but....." - they are as real as Tiernan's anti- Semitism as far as I'm concerned. If I over-reacted - perhaps I'm not alone; personally I find "whingeing liberal" and "rabble rouser" offensive and somewhat spineless lines of argument - but there you go, maybe that's just me! Racism is NOT a historical phenomenon; something that happened to Jews in the first half of the 20th century; it has always been with us and it's on the rise again - go and have a look at who is winning elections nowadays. During our work with Travellers we got a chance to see it up close - even experienced it personally on a couple of occasions for simply 'being there'. It is a tolerance of racism towards Travellers that is enabling the present 'ethnic cleansing' campaign that is taking place here in Ireland at the present time. Racism is inhuman, lethal even (go and ask Stephen Lawrence's parents) - it certainly isn't funny. Jim Carroll |
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11 Oct 09 - 06:20 AM (#2743352) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: GUEST,Peter Laban Tiernan has done his fair share of Traveller jokes as well Jim, as you know. The last one on the Late Late Show even has RTE apologise for the content. Still, I don't think that makes him a racist. He pushes the boundaries, showing up attitudes. Many of his jokes sail close to the wind, too close at time but he admits to taking risks. Nevertheless, many feel it is the comedians job, and Tiernan is one of those who feel it's his mission, to sail close to the wind and make his audience uneasy playing up existing but often suppressed and hidden, attitudes. Now, having grown up in a place and time where those who were taken away and never came back were a fresh memory (and a father who was taken away in 1942 to spend years in a German labour camp) I have seen this turn comedians in Ireland are taking already, maybe thirty years ago. There's nothing new and cracking jokes about the holocaust doesn't immediately mean racism to me. This sort of comedy is an immediate reaction to the mindset that drives this thread: that some subjects should not be made fun of. Mind you, the comedy wave I mentioned above came in a context where some Jewish groups cried racism when the Beatles released 'Hey Jude' with the argument 'Jude' was the German way of calling the prisoners in the camps, so in effect it would be hurtful to all victims to hear the song. And I kid you not, this actually happened. Anyway, the breed of comedians who make 'nothing is sacred' their modus operandi will respond by cracking jokes at the [i]holier than thou[/i] attitude. Not necessarily very good or successful ones (I am not impressed with TT's latest although the 'Mexican' one got a good chuckle out of me at the time) but that's all it is, pulling at what society holds sacred and making the audience aware of existing attitudes, ones even they may be uneasy with harbouring remnants of within themselves. But it is not racism. |
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11 Oct 09 - 06:21 AM (#2743353) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: The Sandman I prefer comedians who use satire in a more positive way. right now we could do with someone satirising the Irish government. |
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11 Oct 09 - 06:26 AM (#2743356) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Lox "BECAUSE IN THIS RESPONSE YOU HAVE IGNORED MY TAILPIECE ADDENDUM THAT THE CLAIMS OF SATIRE & CONTEXT are a *pusillanimous, facile EVASION*;" No I haven't. Your addendum put your use of objectionable material into context. You made your point well. However, in the process, you also unwittingly proved that you can use examples of objectionable material to embellish a point of view that isn't objectionable. In order to dispute this you have had to accuse me of ignoring part of your post thus being selective and taking your comments out of context. "just saying, "Hey, I'm a licesnsed officially authorised SATIRIST & that's the CONTEXT I am working in" actually 'JUSTIFIES' FUCK-ALL." I agree 100% with this. That wouldn't satisfy me either and if Manning Davidson etc were to try it I would be forced to dismantle them piece by piece, beginning with the questions "does this person have a history of doing satire" and "who/what is being satirized". In TT's case, i observe by watching his other material that he plays in social satire - i.e. he plays with cultural stereotypes, mainly of recognizable Irish attitudes and recogizable stereotypes of Irish people (such as "they're lazy and will go to any lengths to avoid work"). I think that in this case he was responding to an accusation that he was anti-semitic and he decided to play the stereotype of a North Dublin Gurrier who's attitude to anything is "F*** off or I'll burgle yer house" and used that character to demonstrate what anti-semitism really sounds like. I also think that he deliberately went too far in the belief that by exxaggerating and ridiculing such views he was distancing himself from them. I think he made a mistake, but I am reluctant to fall one way or the other as his mistake has to do with the sensetive nature of the material. On the one hand, his comments were tasteless and affensuve to not only Jews but anyone else who has strong feelings about the holocaust. On the other hand, sensitive and taboo material is the stomping ground of social and political satire, as is evidenced in every issue of Private Eye magazine who are constantly in receipt of complaints, most famously after the infamous Diana Issue. I'm going to try to avoid this thread now - I think I've had enough - I'll probably get drawn back though ... |
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11 Oct 09 - 06:54 PM (#2743756) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Lox Sorry folks, I have to add a point of information to this thread. Jim, Please pay attention. Neither you nor anyone else on this thread has been accused of being a "whinging liberal". The only time the term "whinging liberal" has been used on this thread was in a PRETEND tirade against smokey. You will find it here in this post Please go back and read the post properly and in the process it might help you to understand what the term 'context' means. and the importance of reading peoples posts BEFORE you pass judgement on them. Azizi, Am I correct in recognizing that Jims apology fits your category of non-apology apologies? I don't expect an answer. |
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11 Oct 09 - 08:03 PM (#2743799) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Smokey. One of the purposes of comedy is to draw attention to the flaws in humanity, and the holocaust is one of the most poignant examples we have. Throughout history our species has done terrible things to itself, and somehow we have to live with that. Some may believe that the 'good' that we do/have done makes up for all that, but I don't. There are some episodes and events that make me ashamed to be a member of the human race. I regard that as an integral part of life. We can separate and label to make it more comfortable by saying the holocaust was something Nazis did to Jews, for bad reasons which we don't agree with, but what actually happened was that humans did it to humans. That was us - the human race - we did it, and we all have to live with it. We have to rise above such things for the sake of our own sanity and future development, and I think comedy in all its forms is a vital tool in doing so, and in remembering that we are far from perfect. I don't think it can ever diminish the horror of what actually happened. I doubt though that we will ever reach a stage of development at which we all find the same things amusing, or even in the same way. I see that diversity (and all human diversity) as one of the more positive qualities of humanity - something to be celebrated and educated by. The unreasonable lashing out at views contrary to one's own demonstrated in this thread is borne of the same fear and subsequent intolerance that brought about such events as the holocaust. It's an aspect of human nature we should be monitoring very carefully, on a personal as well as a sociological level. I think comedy helps us to do that, and should be allowed to continue to do so unimpeded. Participation is voluntary. |
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11 Oct 09 - 10:03 PM (#2743859) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Smokey. As for closet racism being a "nonsensical insult" - go and thumb your way through similar threads and see how many posting begin "I'm not a racist but....." - they are as real as Tiernan's anti- Semitism as far as I'm concerned. Quod erat demonstrandum, perhaps? I'm not a racist, but Tommy Tiernan makes me laugh. Live with it - I have to. |
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12 Oct 09 - 09:59 AM (#2744111) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Jim Carroll "I have to add a point of information to this thread." Sorry Lox - I totally disagree – no new information here, unless you believe the subject to be the hurt feelings of the participants rather than the racist outpourings of a stand-up comedian. However, I do owe you an apology - I did mistake the purpose of your "whingeing liberal" comment and failed to see it in its intended context. I do tend to knee-jerk at phrases like 'bleeding-hearted liberal', 'do-gooder', et al, (not to mention 'finger-in-ear' and 'folk police'), all of which abound on these threads. I accept fully that it was not intended seriously here, - my apologies. I would point out that my initial reaction was to your "You come across like a rabble rouser trying to whip up an angry mob" - I even borrowed your own phrasing for my response. I am sure I will receive a box of chocolates and a bunch of red roses in full recompense, by return post (a feeble attempt at humour, I grant you, but mine own!). Meanwhile – back at the ranch! I fully take on board my friend Peter Laban's posting, obviously based on bitter family experience, but respectfully, I disagree. Nowhere has a case been made for Tiernan being anything other than a stand-up comedian who bases his act on offending people (blacks, Catholics, Travellers... and here, Jews). The question is not whether his 'jokes' were racist - they speak for themselves - but whether racism, the holocaust, anti-Semitism….., is an acceptable subject for humour – I firmly believe IT IS NOT – satire maybe, humour certainly not. If Tiernan is to be considered a satirist, then so does Jim Davidson with his 'Chalkie White' stories and Bernard Manning's 'Paki' jokes have a claim on the title (both have described themselves as such at one time or another, (though Davidson's "I'm not prejudiced – I wish they'd ALL fuck off back to where they came from", rather blew his cover). For me, there is little difference between them all – apart from Tiernan's accent. The questions I asked earlier remain unanswered. Tiernan bases his whole approach to giving offence – that's what he does for a living. So why did he apologise and why was his act withdrawn from the Canadian tour? He certainly has given offence here, therefore he achieved what he set out to do HE WAS A ROARING SUCCESS – WHAT HAS HE GOT TO APOLOGISE FOR AND WHY HAS HE NOT BEEN ALLOWED TO BE THE SAME SUCCESS IN CANADA? Even if we stretch our credulity and allow that he is a 'satirist' rather than a stand-up comedian; the fact that he has made a total hames of his satire makes what he has to say every bit as racist as I believe Manning and Davidson to be. While I agree totally that satire is a powerful weapon, I also think that if it is badly done it isn't just bad satire; rather it backfires on itself and becomes the opposite of what is intended – I think it was Johnny Speight, the creator of Alf Garnett who said so publicly. When ''Til Death Do Us Part' was first broadcast Garnett was a powerful caricature of a racist bigot. Eventually it ran out of steam and became repetitive and trite – the result – Garnett became the darling of the racist right, 'a lovable old reprobate who only says what the rest of us are thinking'. All this aside; it still remains to be shown that Tiernan is anything but a stand-up comedian, and in my opinion, a pretty poor one. His 'humour' is infantile in the extreme (extreme being the operative word); equivalent to a schoolboy running into a shop in Brixton, shouting out "n....r" and running out again – immature, to say the least. To my mind racism is not a subject for cheap humour – not so cheap, when you thing about it – within my lifetime the bill came to over well over 6,000,000. Jim Carroll |
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12 Oct 09 - 11:16 AM (#2744160) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: The Sandman jim on the whole I agree, but I do find parts of his humour a little funny,his sketch on the English,and his comment they conquered most of the world,but dont want the foreigners following the English back to England,that is amusing,after all a lot[i guess about 50 per cent] of English people are insular and xenophobic. when I was at school we had a geography teacher who used to get up in front of the class,and say now Miles do you know where the Wogs live,they live here [pointing to a map of asia,and do you know what a wog is,wogs Miles are wily oriental gentlemen.now thats what I call seriously racist. I havent bothered to watch the sketch about jews it sounds offensive to me. |
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12 Oct 09 - 11:53 AM (#2744182) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Jim Carroll Cap'n, In different circumstances racist humour would be far less of a problem than it is today. I served my apprenticeship on the Liverpool docks where there was a great deal of inter-racial banter between all the nationalities, with little offence taken (or, I believe intended). Thanks to scum like the National Front and their malignant offspring, the BNP, we live in a different world today. Thirty years ago in Ireland, foreigners were treated to little more than polite curiousity and - here in The West (in my experience) given the usual local welcome. That is no longer the case. A couple of Decembers ago a Traveller family who were made homeless by a caravan fire were driven out of temporary council accommodation into the worst possible winter weather by chanting locals - the youngest of the family celebrated her 1st birthday sleeping in the back of a clapped out car. Ex-loyalist terrorists in the North have now concentrated their efforts on driving out immigrant families in Derry and Belfast. You want horror stories - the press is full of them. One of the arguments put forward in the recent referendumm was that if Ireland accepted the Lisbon Treaty we would be over-run by immigrant Turks (this from a nation which wouldn't have survived the last couple of centuries without the recourse of emigration). Different world - in which, I believe, there is no room for tolerance of Tommy Tiernan and his mini-Nuremberg rallies. Without wishing to open old arguments, I seem to remember some time ago, your being racially offended by what many of us believed to be an innocent joke - in that contex; put yourself in the place of the families of holocaust survivers witnessing Tiernen's 'little pearls of wisdom'. Jim Carroll |
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12 Oct 09 - 12:32 PM (#2744210) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe "The unreasonable lashing out at views contrary to one's own demonstrated in this thread is borne of the same fear and subsequent intolerance that brought about such events as the holocaust" Have I misunderstood you, Smokey? Have you essentially said that intolerance towards racism (and vehemently disagreeing with the views of those who set themselves up as apologists for racist "comedians") is the same impulse that leads to racist mass murder on an unprecedented scale? Hmmm... |
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12 Oct 09 - 01:19 PM (#2744247) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: GUEST,lox Jim, I appreciate your retraction and I unreservedly and humbly accept your apology. Furthermore, I share your instinctive repulson of terms like "do gooder" and "liberal fascist", both being terms that have been applied to me. Thanks for taking the time to reconsider your position. Spleen. "Have you essentially said that intolerance towards racism (and vehemently disagreeing with the views of those who set themselves up as apologists for racist "comedians") is the same impulse that leads to racist mass murder on an unprecedented scale?" This line of argument only works if you take the liberty of substituting "racism" for "views contrary to one's own". In doing this you create a straw man and as such are arguing with a fignmet of your own imagnation and saying nothing about smokeys point. If smokey had had a problem with people being intolerant of Racism he would have said so. Instead he said that lashing out at viewpoints contrary to ones own is an approach that he finds comparable to Nazi attitudes. For example, If Jim will forgive me for torturing a dead horse, My view on TT is different to Jims, but as has been well and truly established by now (I hope) it does not follow that my view is racist or that I am an apologist for a racist comedian. To make a snap judgement about another persons viewpoint because they disagree with you and to condemn them without hearing what they have to say equally is not interchangeable with "intolerance to racism". To stand up to racism you need first to be able to identify it. Sometimes this is easy. Sometimes it isn't so clear. I think that in my case it was obvious that my posts contain none. So lashing out at my posts is not the same as being intolerant to racism. In the case of TT there is clearly debate about whether he is racist or not. I believe not, as I believe that he was illustrating a seperate point and not expressing a racist view. I think he is anti racist and his words were meant in a satirical vein. The context of the debate around him is therefore not about whether to be tolerant or intolerant of him, but whether or not he s a racist comedian. So to start suggesting that Somkey thinks we should tolerate racists is misleading, defamatory and has no bearing on anything he has posted so far. |
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12 Oct 09 - 02:26 PM (#2744304) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Spleen Cringe Context, Lox. As you've said yourself, its all about context and the context of this discussion is whether TT is i) racist; ii) a satirist, and possibly iii) a comedian... and therefore Smokey's comments need to be understood in the context of the thread. Now I don't think you or Smokey or most of the folks on this thread are racists - your postings on plenty of threads demonstrate you're not - but what I can't understand is the lengths you'll go to to defend this man. TT really doesn't need or deserve your support. My thoughts at best he's a tasteless idiot who doesn't give a shit who he offends in the noble pursuit of bare-knuckle comedy. At worst he has a seriously dodgy agenda. Personally I think a lot of these so-called clever, "boundary pushing" comics we are inundated with are simply Bernard Manning with a better education and an overdeveloped sense of entitlement. What their doing isn't satire, it's just bullying dressed up as humour. Satire is stuff like Brass Eye. It's far cleverer than this dreary old attention seeking stuff. |
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12 Oct 09 - 04:05 PM (#2744380) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: The Sandman yes ,Jim,Ihave never said I disagreed with you,Isaid I found one or two of his other clips amusing,like the english skit,and the cork accent[although he neds to work a bit harder on that one]. if he was much use as a comedian he would be satirising Biffo our hapless taoiseach. |
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12 Oct 09 - 05:05 PM (#2744428) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: GUEST "and therefore Smokey's comments need to be understood in the context of the thread." Excatly, and if you've been paying attention you'll notice that the context was not restricted to one line of debate. Smokey was very clearly responding to the kneejerk reaction that meant that I was lumped in with apologists for racist humour because i disagreed that TT was a racist. "but what I can't understand is the lengths you'll go to to defend this man." I've actually been speding far too much time on this thread defending myself. I'm now I sem to be geting sucked into defending Smokey. The subject is Tommy Tiernan. "TT really doesn't need or deserve your support" I never set out to give it. I am interested in discussing him and would like to be able to do so freely and intelligently. "Satire is stuff like Brass Eye." I agree 100% And guess how much work Chris Morris gets now? NONE! That's how much. His satirization of public paranoia/fascination on the subject of Paedophiles earned him the hatred of everyone who didn't understand what he was satirizing. He was accused of being tasteless and offensive and not considering the feelings of victims of sexual abuse and using other peoples misery to make cheap comedy etc etc etc ... And he is now a TV outcast. I thought that he was Brilliant, but you make up your own mind. |
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12 Oct 09 - 05:09 PM (#2744431) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Lox "and therefore Smokey's comments need to be understood in the context of the thread." Excatly, and if you've been paying attention you'll notice that the context was not restricted to one line of debate. Smokey was very clearly responding to the kneejerk reaction that meant that I was lumped in with apologists for racist humour because i disagreed that TT was a racist. "but what I can't understand is the lengths you'll go to to defend this man." I've actually been speding far too much time on this thread defending myself. I'm now I sem to be geting sucked into defending Smokey. The subject is Tommy Tiernan. "TT really doesn't need or deserve your support" I never set out to give it. I am interested in discussing him and would like to be able to do so freely and intelligently. "Satire is stuff like Brass Eye." I agree 100% And guess how much work Chris Morris gets now? NONE! That's how much. His satirization of public paranoia/fascination on the subject of Paedophiles earned him the hatred of everyone who didn't understand what he was satirizing. He was accused of being tasteless and offensive and not considering the feelings of victims of sexual abuse and using other peoples misery to make cheap comedy etc etc etc ... And he is now a TV outcast. I thought that he was Brilliant, but you make up your own mind. |
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12 Oct 09 - 05:49 PM (#2744452) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Spleen Cringe Erm, Lox, you don't need to defend Smokey, because I'm not attacking him. Haven't attacked you or anyone else either - it's not personal. Just disagreeing with a societal tendency (that's far wider than the two of you) to accept people like Teirnan and Carr and so on as "satirists" rather than bullies who go for easy targets. At least Chris Morris focused his wit on powerful groups in society such as the media and opinion makers and so on. Comics like TT turn their fire on minority groups and do it from the relatively secure position of being part of the of the majority. In fact, this issue is far wider than TT and I probably have more contempt for some of the smug, self-satisfied English comedians that turn up on every friggin' panel show going... So no offence intended to either of you, ok? I'm disagreeing with your perspective rather than sayin' you're part of the problem... ;-) |
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12 Oct 09 - 07:06 PM (#2744506) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Smokey. Have I misunderstood you, Smokey? Have you essentially said that intolerance towards racism (and vehemently disagreeing with the views of those who set themselves up as apologists for racist "comedians") is the same impulse that leads to racist mass murder on an unprecedented scale? No Spleen, I have not said that. As Lox rightly points out, that is a logical fallacy. Disagree with me by all means; I take no offence at that, but don't put words in my mouth. "Fear and subsequent intolerance" is what I said. Of "views contrary to one's own" - and that is precisely what I meant. My post was an attempt to explain my views, rather than just shout them repeatedly. My opinion is no more important than anyone else's, but I think that for any constructive or meaningful discussion to take place we have a duty to at least try to do that, preferably calmly and without jumping to unreasonable conclusions about one another. Thanks again, Lox. Any sign of the mother-ship yet? |
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12 Oct 09 - 07:33 PM (#2744524) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Smokey. Smokey's comments need to be understood in the context of the thread My comments need to be understood within the context of my post, and my post needs to be understood within the context of the thread. If, indeed, anyone can actually be arsed.. |
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13 Oct 09 - 03:52 PM (#2745207) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: GUEST,mg Just disagreeing with a societal tendency (that's far wider than the two of you) to accept people like Teirnan and Carr and so on as "satirists" rather than bullies who go for easy targets- ---- Exactly my thoughts. I am a comedian/artist/smarter than you so I have these exemptions. I am only doing this to point out how stupid and racist/sexist/ignorant other people are and if you will call me on this it sort of proves you are too. I am not done with the Borat thing either. mg |
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13 Oct 09 - 06:21 PM (#2745342) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Lox Its terrible how Teirnan bullies the Irish. |
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13 Oct 09 - 07:58 PM (#2745390) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Smokey. I'm not familiar with Carr, so I can't comment on him, but Tiernan is a satirist, and as far as I can see fulfills the job description. Others say not, but it's obviously just a matter of opinion. He doesn't tell racist jokes; in fact he doesn't seem to tell jokes at all, from what I've seen of him. I see no trace of 'bullying' either in his manner or his material. He certainly seems to rattle some people's cages, but isn't that partly what satire is meant to do? With his 'Jewish rant', he has drawn attention to an horrific episode in history of which we should collectively be ashamed, and which should never be forgotten, lest human nature should tilt that way again. I think that's a clever and positive thing to do. |
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13 Oct 09 - 08:00 PM (#2745391) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Smokey. Oops.. only 'is' was meant to be bold.. I wasn't shouting, honest. |
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14 Oct 09 - 11:51 AM (#2745624) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: GUEST,Peter Laban Just to step away from Tommy Tiernan, an e-mail with the subject line 'a little Irish Racism' fell in my inbox just now. Worse, the same or equally bad taste as the holocast jokes? Also note which official bodies the e-mail circulated before being forward. I don't like getting this sort of uninvited 'funny' stuff by the way. ) ) ) > ) > Q. If you see a Limerick Man on a bicycle, why should you never ) swerve ) > to hit him? ) > A: It might be your bicycle ) > ) > ) > Q: Why does the River Shannon run through Limerick? ) > A: Because if it walked it would be mugged ) > ) > ) > Q: What do you call a Limerick Man in a three-bed semi? ) > ANS: A Burglar ) > ) > Q: What do you call a Limerick man in a tie? ) > A. The accused ) > ) > Q: Why wasn't Jesus born in Limerick? ) > A: Because God couldn't find three wise men and a virgin ) > ) > Q: What is the difference between a Limerick Man and a coconut? ) > A: One's thick and hairy, and the other's a coconut ) > ) > Q: What do you say to a Limerick Man in a uniform? ) > A: Big Mac and fries please ) > ) > Q: What's the first question at a Limerick pub quiz night? (my ) > Favoutite) ) > A: What you looking at? ) > ) > Q: What do you call a Limerick Woman in a White Shellsuit ) > A: The Bride ) > ) > Q: How do you know Jesus wasn't born in Limerick? ) > A: He fell 3 times and never claimed once ) > ) > ) > ) > ) ********************************************************************* ) > ) > Please note that Revenue cannot guarantee that any personal and ) > sensitive data, sent in plain text via standard email, is fully ) secure. ) > Customers who choose to use this channel are deemed to have accepted ) any ) > risk involved. The alternative communication methods offered by ) Revenue ) > include standard post and the option to register for our (encrypted) ) > secure email service. ) > http://www.revenue.ie/en/practitioner/secure-email.html ) > ) > ) ********************************************************************* ) > ) > ========= ) > IMPORTANT ) > ========= ) > ) > Information in this email (including attachments) may be ) > confidential. It is intended for receipt and consideration ) > only by the intended recipient. If you are not the intended ) > recipient, any use, dissemination, disclosure, publication or ) copying ) > of information contained in this email (including attachments) is ) > strictly prohibited. Opinions expressed in this email may be ) > personal to the author and are not necessarily the opinions of the ) > Health Service Executive. If this email has been received by you in ) > error, please notify the sender and then delete the email from your ) > system. ) ) ) Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. ) ) ) ) Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you're up to ) on Facebook. ) ) Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you're up to ) on Facebook. +**********************************************************************+ Shannon Free Airport Development Company Limited Comhlucht Forbartha Aerfort Neamhchustam Na Sionna Teoranta Registered in Ireland No. 17351. Registered Office: Shannon Development, Town Centre, Shannon, Co. Clare, Ireland. Shannon Free Airport Development Company Limited operates under the Business name Shannon Development The information transmitted in this email and any files transmitted with it is confidential and may contain legally privileged material. It is intended for the sole use of the addressee only. If you are not the intended recipient any review, retransmission, disclosure, dissemination, reliance upon or other use of, this information is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this email in error, please contact the sender and delete the material. DISCLAIMER: The information in this message is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this message by anyone else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, or distribution of the message, or any action or omission taken by you in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. Please immediately contact the sender if you have received this message in error. Thank you. SÉANADH: Is eolas rúnda atá sa teachtaireacht seo agus d'fhéadfadh sé bheith faoi phribhléid dhlíthiúil. Is don seolaí amháin atá sí ceaptha. Is neamhúdaraithe í an rochtain ar an teachtaireacht seo ag duine ar bith eile. Tá toirmeasc ar aon nochtadh, cóipeáil nó leithdháileadh den teachtaireacht, nó aon ghníomh nó neamhghníomh a ghlacann tusa agus tú ag brath uirthi, mura tusa an faighteoir a bhí ceaptha di. Téigh i dteagmháil leis an seoltóir láithreach má fuair tú an teachtaireacht seo trí earráid, le do thoil. Go raibh maith agat. |
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14 Oct 09 - 11:52 AM (#2745626) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: GUEST,Peter Laban That should have been 'forwarded' |
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14 Oct 09 - 01:25 PM (#2745711) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Does the Gaelic at the bottom imply that these are 'Irish jokes', written by and for Irish people? My own Irish Mother always defended Irish jokes as (so she said) Irish people themselves enjoyed them and liked to tell them themselves amongst themselves - I know she certainly found them a hoot anyway. And I've heard older uncles deliver them pretty well too. She said the Irish thoroughly reject being cast as 'victims' of racism, by well meaning English people. It was a case of "Get off my feckin' side!". I don't know how representative of broader current attitudes amongst Irish people towards Irish jokes, that opinion would be of course. |
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14 Oct 09 - 01:31 PM (#2745719) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Lox You're right - those jokes are sh**. But even worse, they're really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really old and have beeen used to take the piss out of every group viewed by other groups as thick. Whoever compiled this list and stuck in the word "limerick" wasn't really very original, clever or funny. |
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14 Oct 09 - 01:35 PM (#2745724) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Actually on second thoughts, bar the header of your email, those aren't actually 'Irish jokes'. They're 'Limerick man' jokes. Looks like they're the Irish equivalent of English 'Essex Girl' jokes to me (which I've been subject to myself more than once in past...) |
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14 Oct 09 - 02:00 PM (#2745754) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: GUEST,Peter Laban Yes they're jokes by one group/majority making fun of another group/minority in order to put them down and feel superior. It's worth considering, in the context of this thread, if these are more acceptable when they make fun of Limerick people or Limerick in general and would be worse if they concerned themselves with Jewish people. Given the circulation of this e-mail it would appear they're considered innocent enough, or a guilty pleasure at best. |
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14 Oct 09 - 02:07 PM (#2745762) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Declan Maybe I'm applying double standards here but I don't think there's much similarity between the Tommy Tiernan material and the Limerick 'Jokes'. The latter I would regard as mild slagging. I doubt if many people from Limerick would find them offensive, in fact my first inclination is to send the list to a friend of mine who comes from Limerick because he'd probably get a giggle out of them. I don't think I'd be inclined to send the TT youtube video to any Jewish friends and expect he same reation. I have been the butt of many Irish jokes over the years and have rarely taken offense, except on one or two occasions when I thought the 'joker' was using the jokes as a way at having a go at me, rather than sharing in a laugh. I think I've quoted Kieran Halpin's lyrics on a similar thread before - "I've suffered the jibe and the jester, and laughed at their jokr through it all". |
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14 Oct 09 - 02:09 PM (#2745764) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Declan By the way the gaelic at the end of the message is a direct translation 9of the disclaimer that appears above it, which is added by the Health Service Executive, the Irish equivalent of the NHS in the UK. |
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14 Oct 09 - 02:30 PM (#2745781) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Haven't heard an Essex girl joke for a while. Must confess I find some of these actually pretty funny. The cruder the better... Maybe there's something in being ridiculed while not actually identifying with it, that makes the joke seem much funnier than it actually is - or indeed would be if directed elsewhere? 1.What is the difference between a walrus and an Essex girl? One is wet, has a moustache and smells of fish - the other is a walrus! 2.What's the difference between an Essex man & an Essex girl? The Essex girl has a higher sperm count! 3.What does an Essex girl say after having sex? What team do you guys play for? 4.What's the difference between Gorbachev and an Essex girl? Gorby knows the names of the eight people that f***ed him! 5.What do Essex girls use for protection during sex? Bus shelters. 6.How does an Essex girl turn the light out after sex? She shuts the Cortina's door. 7.How do you make an Essex girl's eyes sparkle? Shine a torch into her ear. 8.How can you tell if an Essex girl is having a bad day? Her tampon is behind her ear and she can't find her pencil. 9.Why does an Essex girl wear knickers? To keep her ankles warm. 10.What's the difference between an Essex girl and an ironing board? Occasionally you have trouble getting the legs apart on an ironing board. 11. Whats the difference between an Essex girl and the titanic? You know how many men went down on the titanic. 12.What is the difference between a supermarket trolley and an Essex girl? A supermarket trolley has a mind of its own. 13.Why is an Essex girl like an old washing machine? They both drip when f***ed. 14.Why do Essex girls use tampons with long strings? So the crabs can go bungy jumping 15.How do you know when an Essex girl has had an orgasm? She drops her bag of chips. 16.What did an Essex girl and President Gorbachev have in common? They both got f***ed by eight men while on holiday. 17.How many Essex girls does it take to make a chocolate chip cookie? Five, one to stir the mixture and four to peel the smarties. 18.What's the similarity between an Essex girl and a dog's turd? The older they get, the easier they are to pick up! 19.What's the difference between an Essex girl and a washing machine? You can dump your load in a washing machine without it following you around whining for a week. 20.Why are Essex girls only allowed 30-minute lunch breaks? It takes too long to retrain them if they take an hour. 21.What's the similarity between Essex girls and carpenters? They both have saws in their boxes 22.What did the Essex girl say after the doctor told her she was pregnant? Is it mine? 23.Why was the Essex girl so pleased to complete a jigsaw puzzle in 18 months? Because it said on the box "From 2 to 5 years". 24.How do you make an Essex girl laugh on Saturday? Tell her a joke on a Wednesday. 25.What's the difference between an Essex girl and a fridge? A fridge doesn't fart when you take your meat out. 26.When does an Essex girl drool? When she's full. 27.How do you tell when an Essex girl is having her period? She's only wearing one Sock. 28.What does the label in an Essex girl's knickers say? NEXT! 29.What's the similarity between Robert Maxwell and Essex girls? They both go down in Tenerife. 30.Why do Essex girls wear green lipstick? Red means stop. 31.Why is it good to have an Essex girl passenger? You can park in the handicapped spaces. 32.Why do Essex girls wear so much hair spray? So they can catch some of the things going straight over their heads. 33.Why do Essex girls wear hoop earrings? So they'll have someplace to rest their ankles. 34.If an Essex girl and a Surrey girl jump out of an airplane at the same time, which one would hit the ground first? The surrey girl, the Essex girl would have to stop to ask directions. 35.What is the difference between Bigfoot and an intelligent Essex girl? There have actually been sightings of Bigfoot. 36.What does it mean if you see an Essex girl with square boobs? She forgot to take the Kleenex out of the box. 37.Why do Essex girls like tilt steering wheels? More head room. 38.What do you call 6 Essex girls in a row? A wind tunnel. 39.What do you call a Surrey girl between 2 Essex girls? An Interpreter. 40.What's the first thing an Essex girl does in the morning? Goes home. 41.What's the mating call of an Essex girl? Gosh, I'm so drunk. 42.What's the mating call of a Surrey girl? Are all the Essex girls gone? 43.What do Essex girls and computers have in common? You don't know what you are missing until they go down on you. 44.What is the difference between an Essex girl and a cream egg? It costs 25p to lick out a cream egg. 45.Why is an Essex girl like a beer bottle? They're both empty from the neck up. 46.What do you call an Essex girl with half a brain? Gifted. 47.Why do Essex girls have to work 7 days a week? So you don't have to retrain them on Monday. 48.What do you say to an Essex girl who wont give in? Have another drink. 49.What's an Essex girls favourite wine? I want to go to Lakeside 50.What do you call an Essex girl with a pound coin on the top of her head? All you can eat, under a quid. 51.Why do Essex girls wash their hair in the sink? That's where you wash vegetables. 52.How do you get an Essex girl to marry you? Tell her she's pregnant. 53.Why did the Essex girl climb over the glass wall? To see what was on the other side. 54.What do you see when you peer into an Essex girls eyes? The back of her head. 55.What's the difference between an Essex girl and a Porsche? You don't lend the Porsche out to your friends. 56.What do you do if an Essex girl throws a grenade at you? Catch it, pull out the pin and throw it back. 57.Why did the Essex girl stop using the pill? It kept falling out. 58.Why don't Essex girls use vibrators? They chip their teeth. 59.Why do Essex girls have trouble reaching orgasm? Who cares? 60.What's the difference between an Essex girl and a limousine? Not everyone has been in a limousine. 61.How does an Essex girl interpret 6.9? 69 interrupted by a period. 62.How do you brainwash an Essex girl? Give her a douche and shake her upside-down. 63.What do you call 15 Essex girls in a ring? A dope ring. 64.Why did the Essex girl go halfway to Norway then turn round & come home? It took her that long to figure out a 14 inch Viking was a TV set. 65.What's the difference between an Essex girl and a terrorist? You can negotiate with a terrorist. 66.What is the worst thing about having sex with an Essex girl? The bucket seats. 67.What do Essex girls do for foreplay? Remove their underwear. 68.What did the Essex girl name her pet zebra? Spot. 69.Why did the Essex girl drown? Someone stuck a scratch & sniff at the bottom of the pool. 70.What do you call a fly buzzing around an Essex girl's head? A space invader. 71.Why did the Essex girl have a bruised navel? Her boyfriend's from Essex too. 72.Why did God create Essex girls? Because sheep can't fetch beer from the fridge. 73.How do you amuse an Essex girl for hours? Write 'Please turn over' on both sides of a piece of paper. 74.How can you tell if an Essex girl has been in your fridge? By the lipstick on your cucumbers. 75.How do you know which computer an Essex girl was using? By the tippex on the screen. 76.What did the Essex girl customer say to the buxom waitress (reading her nametag)? "'Debbie'.... That,s cute, what did you name the other one?". 77.Why is an Essex girl like a doorknob? Because everybody gets a turn. 78.Why is an Essex girl like railway tracks? Because she's been laid all over the country. 79.What's the difference between an Essex girl and a phone booth? You need 10p to use the phone. 80.How does an Essex girl commit suicide? She gathers all her clothes into a pile, and jumps off. 81.How do Essex girl brain cells die? Alone. 82.Why didn't the Essex girl want a window seat on the plane? She'd just blow dried her hair and didn't want it blown around too much. 83.Why do Essex girl prefer cars with sunroofs? More leg room. 84.Why do Essex girls have orgasms? So they know when to stop having sex. 85.What did the Essex girl's mum say to her before her date? "If you're not in bed by 12, come home". 86.Why don't Essex girls breast-feed their babies? Because it's too painful to boil the nipples. 87.Why are Essex girls like Cornflakes? Because they're simple, easy and taste good. 88.Where do Essex girls go to meet their relatives? The vegetable patch. 89.Why was the Essex girl disappointed when she received her driver's license? Because she got an F in sex. 90.How did the Essex girl break her leg raking leaves? She fell out of the tree. 91.What do you call an Essex girl behind a steering wheel? An air bag. 92.Why don't Essex girls have elevator jobs? They can't remember the route. 93.How do you change an Essex girl's mind? Blow in her ear. 94.What can strike an Essex girl without her even knowing it? A thought. 95.What do you call a basement full of Essex girls? A whine cellar. 96.What do you call an Essex girl skeleton in the closet? Last years hide-and-seek champ. 97.What do you call an Essex girl with 2 brain cells? Pregnant. 98.What do you call an Essex girl between 2 Surrey girls? A mental block. 99.How do you confuse an Essex girl? You don't, they're born that way. |
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14 Oct 09 - 03:05 PM (#2745816) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: GUEST,Peter Laban Yes Declan, but would similar jokes be considered appropriate if they were about blacks, jews, foreigners or whatever? Call it an exercise in determining where to draw a line, if at all possible. I am not easily offended by jokes, as long as they aren't made with malicious intend (and to go back to the subject of the thread, I don't think Tommie Tiernan would have had a malicious, racist, intention). |
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14 Oct 09 - 06:25 PM (#2745991) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: The Sandman well it makes a change from Kerryman jokes,the poOr old KERRYMAN,the butt of the rest of IRELAND all these years.I bet that was a kerryman that circ ulated those jokes about the limerick folks,hey I like the ESSEX GIRL JOKES. |
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30 Oct 09 - 03:25 PM (#2755950) Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what? From: Den Just for the record, the GuestDen posting above is not to be confused with my good self and I couldn't really give enough of a shit about Tommy Teirnan to acknowledge him either way. Thanks again to the member who drew my attention to this and for having the sense to know that I never be responsible for spouting such utter nonsense. |
