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04 Oct 09 - 05:15 PM (#2738256) Subject: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ? From: Joybell I'm completely at a loss. This word is on the death certificate of a performer I'm researching. Vasalier The Queensland government doesn't allow us to have a photocopy of actual certificates and we have to rely on a typist's interpretation. I've contacted them but so far there's no word. This man usually called himself a "musician". He was, at times, a hotel-owner. The closest I can come is Vitualler but I can't see how that could be written as Vasalier. The address has an obvious typo in it. In case it helps, the typo is an "a" where an "o" should be. No help really. Any ideas? Cheers, Joy |
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04 Oct 09 - 05:51 PM (#2738304) Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ? From: John MacKenzie In a list of food workers of Paris [here] a vasalier is an occupational name. Can't find out what occupation it is yet, but I will keep looking. JM |
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04 Oct 09 - 05:52 PM (#2738306) Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ? From: wysiwyg I Googled up a dictionary of job titles and didn't find anything. But I do know, now, what a LUMPIA is: LUMPIA A bakery product wrapped around a filling to form lumpias (ethnic dish from the Philippines). ~S~ |
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04 Oct 09 - 05:54 PM (#2738309) Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ? From: wysiwyg http://bham.craigslist.org/fuo/1389586487.html ~S~ |
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04 Oct 09 - 06:12 PM (#2738328) Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Nothing in Larousse. |
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04 Oct 09 - 06:14 PM (#2738331) Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ? From: Joybell Thanks, John. We tried a French dictionary but didn't find it. This man was very creative with words -- but of course he was dead when this certificate was issued. Thanks, S, You never know with this man. Cheers, Joy |
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04 Oct 09 - 06:17 PM (#2738333) Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ? From: Noreen The wording in John's link above applies that a vasalier is a servant, or at least, at the same level in society as a servant. Will try and find out more. |
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04 Oct 09 - 06:20 PM (#2738336) Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ? From: Noreen I should have said, that was the meaning of the word in Paris in 1863, at any rate! |
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04 Oct 09 - 06:27 PM (#2738347) Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ? From: Joybell OK. Thanks Noreen. That idea may fit with my man. He was a 19th century performer. Maybe he left instructions to his wife about the wording on his certificate. I should have added that he died in 1907 at the age of almost 87. He was still sharp and witty right to the end. Cheers, Joy |
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04 Oct 09 - 06:31 PM (#2738349) Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ? From: GUEST, topsie Could be a washer-upper: 'faire la vaiselle' = wash the dishes |
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04 Oct 09 - 07:06 PM (#2738380) Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ? From: Jack Campin A cavalier rides on a horse, so presumably a vasalier rides on Vaseline. |
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04 Oct 09 - 07:13 PM (#2738383) Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Well, didn't find 'vasalier', but I did find I had a *vassalier in my dining room. * one of those antique sideboard things with two doors at the base, two drawers above those, and a couple of recessed shelves resting on the top, decorated above with scrolls. |
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04 Oct 09 - 08:48 PM (#2738439) Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ? From: Gurney Jack Campin: Don't we all, mate! Given the opportunity. Performer = Wassailer = Busker? Just guessing. |
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04 Oct 09 - 09:16 PM (#2738458) Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ? From: Alice No, a vasalier makes vases. (Just kidding. Anyone else a fan of Says You, with the fake definitions? ) |
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04 Oct 09 - 09:35 PM (#2738477) Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ? From: Joybell Wassailer is a good idea, Gurney. Thanks. In Old Norse it's spelled "Ves heill" as a toast. The "W" might well have been changed. I'm thinking it might have been my man's last joke. It sounds just like him. Cheers, Joy |
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05 Oct 09 - 02:32 AM (#2738580) Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ? From: Georgiansilver In Medieval England a Vassal was a servant or slave....... so this could be another derivative. The word vasalier, I would suggest, is the French form of whatever it means.... so perhaps a French personage can offer some light on it... anyone know a French person??? Best wishes, Mike. |
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05 Oct 09 - 04:10 AM (#2738604) Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ? From: Monique I couldn't find "vasalier" in any French dictionary, regular and historical, online and mine, even in Old and Middle French dictionaries. In Medieval France, a vassal was someone who had sworn an oath of allegiance to his liege lord and/or was "below" in the social hierarchy -the same way as in England I think. But you wouldn't say that vassal was the name of a trade. I put the word on Google and apart from this thread there's "1890's Normandy Louis XV Vasalier" = mispelling for vassalier = Fr. "vaisselier" = piece of furniture which name derives from "vaisselle", there're two persons' names from Southern France so I searched a couple of Occitan dictionaries to no avail, I also came across a German forum and the word is related to "vassal" -Middle Ages concept. The only interesting thing I found was when I searched the etymology of "vassalier" : I came across that "En Provence, on rencontre plusieurs noms qui semblent dériver de Vassus, serviteur: il s'agit de VASSEL, VASSELOT, VASSELON, et peut-être VASSALIER." = "In Provence, we come across several names that seem to derive from Vassus, servant: it can be VASSEL VASSELOT VASSELON, and maybe VASSALIER" So I think that Noreen may have it right. |
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05 Oct 09 - 07:25 AM (#2738702) Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ? From: wysiwyg The link I gave above IS for that furniture, BTW. A photo. ~S~ |
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05 Oct 09 - 10:04 AM (#2738814) Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ? From: Mrrzy Yes, I LOVE "says you" - and a servant would have been my guess, but I didn't do all the research Monique did. |
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05 Oct 09 - 08:58 PM (#2739252) Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ? From: Joybell The idea of servant seems to be the most likely. It's no wonder I'm so interested in this man. 10 years or so and I'm still learning new things about him. Thank you Noreen and thank you everyone. Cheers, Joy |
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12 Oct 09 - 08:53 PM (#2744565) Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ? From: Joybell Oh dear!! The Queensland Records Department got back to me at last. The occupation is "Vocalist". I did think of that -- right off -- but I couldn't imagine how you could get Vasalier from Vocalist. Even with the worst handwriting. Anyway sadly, it's not one last joke. Thank you everyone again. Cheers, Joy |
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13 Oct 09 - 07:24 AM (#2744783) Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ? From: Noreen :0) Never mind, I've learned a new word because of your request! |
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13 Oct 09 - 07:28 AM (#2744786) Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ? From: Mr Happy 'Well, didn't find 'vasalier', but I did find I had a *vassalier in my dining room. * one of those antique sideboard things with two doors at the base, two drawers above those, and a couple of recessed shelves resting on the top, decorated above with scrolls. ' ********** Was the deceased's name Chester Drawers? 8-) |
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13 Oct 09 - 10:06 AM (#2744918) Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ? From: Amos Parlons maintenant des dilTerentes sortes de pain con- somraees dans la capilale. Du Cange a donn^, d'apr6s de Yieilles chartes, la lisle suiyante des pains qui, au moyen dge, obtenaient la preference : pain primo, — de pape^ — de coui\ — de la bouche, — de chevalier^ — d'ecuyer^ — de chanoine, — de salle pour les hdtes, — de vasaliers ou de servants^ — de valet j — Truses^ — Tribolet, — Ferez^ — Maillau, — de mais^ — Chmrne^ — Chouchol, — Dengin^ — Salignau. Les oublayers vendaienl ce dernier pain dans les rues (I). II y avait encore des pains pour les dejeu- ners, nommes pour celte raison malinaux^ — les pains du Saiw^E^pn^qde,* pendant la somaine de la Pentecote, on distribuait aux pauvres, — ct enfin, \q^ pains d'eirennes que, yers les fdtes de Noel, les paroissiens offraient a leur cur6. The text is discussing types of bread consumed in Paris since the Middle Ages, and among other types includes "pain de vasaliers ou de servants". The other use of the word is for a side board of around Louis XV. This might imply that the vasalier was a servingperson charged with maintaining the sideboard, or standing by it during a formal dinner. This is a guess. Excerpt from "Les ouvrier de Paris--Alimentation" (Workers of Paris--Food Industry) |
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13 Oct 09 - 10:44 AM (#2744953) Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ? From: Mr Happy ........like 'vassal'?? |
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13 Oct 09 - 11:32 AM (#2744990) Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ? From: Monique Here is the excerpt Amos copied and pasted: "Parlons maintenant des différentes sortes de pain consommées dans la capitale. Du Cange a donné, d'après de vieilles chartes, la liste suivante des pains qui, au moyen âge, obtenaient la préférence : pain primo, — de pape — de cour — de la bouche, — de chevalier — d'écuyer — de chanoine, — de salle pour les hôtes, — de vasaliers ou de servants — de valet — Truses — Tribolet, — Ferez — Maillau, — de maïs — Chœrne — Chouchol, — Dengin — Salignau. Les oublayers vendaient ce dernier pain dans les rues (I). II y avait encore des pains pour les déjeuners, nommés pour cette raison matinaux — les pains du Saint-Esprit, que, pendant la semaine de la Pentecôte, on distribuait aux pauvres, — et enfin, les pains d'étrennes que, vers les fêtes de Noël, les paroissiens offraient à leur curé." When you see the difference between what was actually written on "Les ouvriers de Paris..." and how the digitalized text came out, no wonder that "vasalier" could actually be a vocalist if the typist couldn't read the handwriting correctly. You sometimes find this type of new words on students' works when they couldn't copy their class mates' works properly. |