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15 Oct 09 - 03:07 AM (#2746257) Subject: Lyr Add: ENGLAND MY ENGLAND From: Rasener Just had this sent by my brother and seems to have been doing the rounds. However does anybody know its origins? England my England Goodbye to my England, So long my old friend Your days are numbered, being brought to an end To be Scottish, Irish or Welsh that's fine But don't say you're English, that's way out of line. The French and the Germans may call themselves such So may Norwegians, the Swedes and the Dutch You can say you are Russian or maybe a Dane But don't say you're English ever again. At Broadcasting House the word is taboo In Brussels it's scrapped, in Parliament too Even schools are affected. Staff do as they're told They must not teach children about England of old. Writers like Shakespeare, Milton and Shaw The pupils don't learn about them anymore How about Agincourt, Hastings, Arnhem or Mons ? When England lost hosts of her very brave sons. We are not Europeans, how can we be? Europe is miles away, over the sea We're the English from England, let's all be proud Stand up and be counted - Shout it out loud! Let's tell our Government and Brussels too We're proud of our heritage and the Red, White and Blue Fly the flag of Saint George or the Union Jack Let the world know - WE WANT OUR ENGLAND BACK !!!! If you are English, pass it on please.en |
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15 Oct 09 - 03:31 AM (#2746261) Subject: RE: England My England From: GREEN WELLIES Well said. Put me in mind of a speech by the Australian Priminister some time ago, saying basically they welcome with open arms anyone who wants to go and live there and help Australia be the best at anything it does. However, do not dare to crisicise their way of life, relegion, or beliefs. If you do you can bugger off. I think England needs to be more like that now. |
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15 Oct 09 - 03:36 AM (#2746264) Subject: RE: England My England From: Folkiedave Looks like a fascist song to me. Apart from the fact it is bollox. |
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15 Oct 09 - 03:42 AM (#2746266) Subject: RE: England My England From: The Borchester Echo origins? Some ignorant BNP twat unaware that GBS was Irish, that Harold lost at Hastings and that St George never set foot in England. |
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15 Oct 09 - 03:52 AM (#2746269) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton Mmmmmmmmmmmmm History hey! It's worth reflecting on what the Irish, Scots and Welsh feel about their historical relationship with England let alone the places around the globe that were called The British Empire. Cheers L in C |
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15 Oct 09 - 04:47 AM (#2746291) Subject: RE: England My England From: Rasener I was wondering if it was connected with Fascists or something like that. Thats why I asked the question. |
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15 Oct 09 - 04:49 AM (#2746292) Subject: RE: England My England From: Andy Jackson Can anybody else hear the sound of a can opener? |
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15 Oct 09 - 04:54 AM (#2746295) Subject: RE: England My England From: Rasener I will ask the moderators to keep an eye on this thread. It is not meant to open the can of worms and neither do I want it to sink into the type of inflamatory threads we get too often these days on Mudcat. |
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15 Oct 09 - 05:03 AM (#2746297) Subject: RE: England My England From: Owen Woodson I doubt if its emanated from the BNP. Not nasty enough, but it could have been written by someone in UKIP. Wherever it comes from it's pretty damned awful. The lyrics I mean, as well as the sentiments. |
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15 Oct 09 - 05:03 AM (#2746298) Subject: RE: England My England From: SteveMansfield At Broadcasting House the word is taboo Somebody had better tell the website editors to remove the England menu item from the front page then In Brussels it's scrapped, 237,000 hits on the europa.eu website in Parliament too 75,000 mentions in the last two years Agincourt A decisive victory (in the short term at least) for a king of French extraction, leading a predominantly conscript army of English and Welsh bulked out with mercenaries? Facts are just so inconvenient ... |
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15 Oct 09 - 05:10 AM (#2746303) Subject: RE: England My England From: GREEN WELLIES So now being proud of your country, your heritage and wanting the best for it is being a fascist. Dont you think thats just a bit narrow minded. |
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15 Oct 09 - 05:14 AM (#2746305) Subject: RE: England My England From: Fred McCormick "Facts are just so inconvenient ..." Amen. As a matter of fact Milton, Shakespeare and Shaw for that matter were never taught in my school. I do recall getting pumped full of Kipling though. |
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15 Oct 09 - 05:18 AM (#2746308) Subject: RE: England My England From: alanabit I have had several of these e-mails over the past couple of years. Some people seem to find them funny, but I have serious misgivings about them. Someone is trying to propogate the idea that "Englishness" (whatever that might mean) is under threat and needs protection from all the usual suspects. I received this particular piece of doggerel some weeks back and just to clear up a few misgivings, I actually annotated it and sent it back. I wonder how many readers even recognised the title and have read the short story (by DH Lawrence) to which it alludes. That was anything but a piece of breast beating psuedo patriotism. Shaw, of course was Irish. Agincourt, whilst indeed a famous victory, was actually fought so that a beaten army could run away and hop on the Calais Dover Ferry after an unsuccessful hooligan season. (England's excuse for being there was so piffling that even Shakespeare took the piss out of it at the start of Henry V). No one wishes to decry the heroism of English soldiers at Arnhem, but we should also mention the very brave Scots, Welsh, Irish, Canadians and Poles. "Europe is miles away over the sea." It is also close enough for a person of exceptional fitness to swim. "We are proud of our heritage the red, white and blue." Can anyone tell me where I might find the blue in the flag of St.George? In short, I reckon this piece of doggerel has little value as either history or poetry. |
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15 Oct 09 - 05:20 AM (#2746310) Subject: RE: England My England From: Fred McCormick "Saying My country right or wrong is like saying my mother drunk or sober". George Orwell. Well, approximately. |
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15 Oct 09 - 05:22 AM (#2746311) Subject: RE: England My England From: bubblyrat I am very proud to be English. I don't give a shit where GBS came from ,or whether or not St George ever trod this sceptred isle; Jesus certainly didn't either, but that hasn't affected the millions of Christians who rejoice here. Harold's defeat at Hastings was actually a giant leap forward for this country ,thanks to the French--our current Sovereign,who comes from a long line of Germans, is married to a Greek. Complex,isn't it ?? But that's England for you !! -----and I am PROUD to be a part of it. By the way, Fascism has bugger all to do with it: if you don't know what the word means, then please don't use it, it just causes offence, and can lead to anger, resentment, and, regrettably, legal action. |
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15 Oct 09 - 05:23 AM (#2746312) Subject: RE: England My England From: GUEST It's a widespread anthem amongst English nationalist groups, the sort of people who see the BNP as dangerously cosmopolitan. Try Google "But don't say you're English, that's way out of line". |
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15 Oct 09 - 05:44 AM (#2746322) Subject: RE: England My England From: Fidjit I prefer Billy Brag's, "Half English"
I had a plate of Marmite sandwiches Washed down with a cappuccino Nice big curry about once a week Next day a fry up of bubble and squeak 'cos my appetite's half English and I'm half English too It's more to the point. Chas |
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15 Oct 09 - 06:11 AM (#2746333) Subject: RE: England My England From: theleveller The problem with this sort of doggerel is that it looks backwards instead of looking forward. Of course our history and our heritage are important but there is as much a heritage of dissent, revolution and attempts to change the status quo as there is of jingoism and misplaced patriotism. Today (well, in a 2003 survey) less than 18% of people are participating members of an organized religion and over half don't believe in god. The monarchy is a redundant anachronism and has been since 1649. There is greater cultural and ethnic diversity than ever before. Education is no longer for the privileged few. The ways we earn our livings had changed beyond recognition. Our needs and expectations are constantly evolving. Why do we persistently hark back to an age that was, for most people, far inferior in most respects – let's be proud of the real England of today and of how we can make it even better? As the parrots on Aldous Huxley's Island kept repeating: "Here and now, boys. Here and now." |
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15 Oct 09 - 06:16 AM (#2746335) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton Well put Mr Leveller! L in C St George's Field? |
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15 Oct 09 - 06:20 AM (#2746338) Subject: RE: England My England From: The Borchester Echo Are there millions of christians in England? Has anyone counted and if so, why? It's a middle eastern religion, innit? Whoever penned this ill-informed, jingoistic drivel is unlikely to be a fascist as adherence to such an ideology involves some understanding of economics and anthropology which is clearly lacking. Not having reached even the level of grasping that misappropriation of nationality of one of Ireland's greatest literary figures betrays a legacy of outdated yet ingrained imperialism. Yes, BB's England Half English is massively more appropriate today, illustrating as it does how England is now. |
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15 Oct 09 - 06:22 AM (#2746341) Subject: RE: England My England From: Rasener Yes I would go with that |
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15 Oct 09 - 06:30 AM (#2746348) Subject: RE: England My England From: The Sandman what evidence is there to prove that Harolds defeat was a giant leap forward for this country?. it was a giant leap forward for william and his cronies who helped themselves to what they liked for the ordinary person it made very little difference. anyway the whole concept of countries and their boundaries is ridiculous,who built Hadrians wall and why?why the boundary there and not further up. why ? Geographically Wales England and Scotland,are inseparable,lets pull down the boundaries,and get on with trying to make the whole island a better place for everybody regardless of race. |
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15 Oct 09 - 06:34 AM (#2746354) Subject: RE: England My England From: TheSnail Sorry, GUEST of 15 Oct 09 - 05:23 AM was me. My cookie had crumbled bubblyrat Harold's defeat at Hastings was actually a giant leap forward for this country I think some of the English nationalists believe that that was when the rot set in. One of them called itself the Malfosse Society. Malfosse was the site in the Battle of Hastings of the last stand of Englands aristocracy after Harold was killed. |
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15 Oct 09 - 06:35 AM (#2746355) Subject: RE: England My England From: Rasener Yes agree there GSS and lets have our freebies just like Scotland and Wales. |
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15 Oct 09 - 06:40 AM (#2746361) Subject: RE: England My England From: Sailor Ron GSS,I'm with you in what you've said, however the Romans got it wrong Hadrian's wall should have been built on the Pennines to keep the Tykes out of God's own county [ for non Brits. that's Lancashire}. |
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15 Oct 09 - 07:02 AM (#2746373) Subject: RE: England My England From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Jesus, can't these people at least write *good* songs about England? That's what I hate about Nationalist tripe like this. Is that it's so stoopid and embarrassing. I wonder if the writer has ever even come within so much of a whiff of Shakespeare? Not bloody likely judging by the err 'standard' of this football chant. This isn't a proud celebration of English culture and history (of which there is plenty to rightly celebrate), it's a botched whinging little attack at other countries in Europe. Whoever wrote it also obviously doesn't actually give a dick for (or indeed know dick about) traditional English culture either, or they wouldn't have randomly and erroneously picked on Shaw or the Union Flag, as representative of it! |
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15 Oct 09 - 07:07 AM (#2746377) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton The 'trouble' actually started with them Neolithic Framers of the New Stone Age! L in C |
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15 Oct 09 - 07:12 AM (#2746383) Subject: RE: England My England From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler Bubblyrat, I'm not sure that you can say the Jesus never came to the British Isles (not England then I agree - no Angles). If you take the Bible as a history book there is nothing in there about him between the ages of approximately 13 and 32. Others have asserted that he travelled with his uncle and saw the known world. There is also an assertion that one of the lesser known deciples was Welsh. I don't have any links to any of this, just what I remember from various convesations, but lack of evidence is not not proof. |
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15 Oct 09 - 07:14 AM (#2746384) Subject: RE: England My England From: TheSnail Good Soldier Schweik who built Hadrians wall The Romans under Emperoror Hadrian. and why? As a defence agaisnst the undefeated tribes in what is now Scotland. why the boundary there and not further up. Because the earlier Antonine Wall from the Forth to the Clyde proved impossible to hold. Nothing to do with the topic but rather more interesting. |
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15 Oct 09 - 07:20 AM (#2746387) Subject: RE: England My England From: Silas Well, the myth that Harold was the rightful heir to the throne still exists in this country despite the evidence. |
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15 Oct 09 - 07:36 AM (#2746403) Subject: RE: England My England From: Tug the Cox BBCW...'and did those feet in ancient times' refers to the story of jesus travelling to England with Joseph of Arimathea, a merchant. Legend has it that they travelled to Glastonbury, and that the holy thorn grew out of Joseph's walking stick, which was made of rosewood from palestine. Its a good old story, and 'jerusalem' is still sung with gusto, so don't worry too much if its not true. Anyway, I have always found it odd that people claim to be proud of something that they have no choice in. I AM, english. I'm proud of my achievements, vicariously both proud and ashamed of some of the deeds of my countrymen. I admit that I feel fortunate to have been born in England, but an accident of birth is more a matter for thankfulness rather than pride. |
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15 Oct 09 - 07:37 AM (#2746404) Subject: RE: England My England From: Dave the Gnome It's a really strange thing that some people who claim to be 'proud to be English' seem to have little grasp of what it actualy means. I like being English, I cannot claim to be proud becuase where I was born was a simple quirk of fate and nothing whatsoever to do with me! My Polish Father, and his Russian Father and Polish Mother were here becuase Poland had become to difficult to live in during the 1940s. Grandad (Deda to use the Russian term) was in Poland because the Communists made it too uncomfortable to be in Russia. My maternal grandmother was born in Rhuddlan, North Wales, and was here because her Father moved to find work. My maternal Grandfather's family came to Lancashire as strike breakers from Staffordshire. How can that have been anything to do with me? All that being said I repeat that I like being English. I will celebrate the diversity of our culture. I will have a Curry or a Pizza or Piroggi to celebrate St Georges day, I will play my Anglo-concertina for Abram Morris and sing a Scottish song in the pub. It's great! Why the need to keep harping on about the (in)glorious past? And, yes, the song is shite. DeG |
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15 Oct 09 - 07:45 AM (#2746410) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton Good one Dave L in C |
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15 Oct 09 - 07:53 AM (#2746418) Subject: RE: England My England From: GREEN WELLIES How did Jesus and Joseph get tickets for Glastonbury? They're always sold out. Sorry. |
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15 Oct 09 - 07:58 AM (#2746423) Subject: RE: England My England From: TheSnail GREEN WELLIES How did Jesus and Joseph get tickets for Glastonbury? Friends in high places. |
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15 Oct 09 - 08:06 AM (#2746430) Subject: RE: England My England From: GREEN WELLIES Snail - and I thought my post was bad. |
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15 Oct 09 - 08:13 AM (#2746435) Subject: RE: England My England From: Will Fly Good one DeG. "English", or "Scottish" or anything else for that matter, is a moveable, individual feast. It's a wise child as knows his own g-g-g-g-ggrandfathers... So, if being English includes a sizeable chunk of Scottish, Irish, Dutch/Flemish, Lancashire, Norfolk and who knows what else, then, ermm... ,well, yes, being English is OK really... Crap verses, by the way. |
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15 Oct 09 - 08:13 AM (#2746436) Subject: RE: England My England From: oscdav Show me just one resident of these Great Isles that has pure Scotish, Irish, Welsh, or English blood. The whole of Britain and Ireland is made up of a mongrel race. Read your history, inwardly digest,celebrate and get over it. |
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15 Oct 09 - 08:20 AM (#2746437) Subject: RE: England My England From: theleveller "St George's Field?" Absolutely, Les! "The crowd chanted 'Wilkes and Liberty', 'No Liberty, No King', and 'Damn the King! Damn the Government! Damn the Justices!'" And Magna Carta, The Peasants' Revolt, The English Civil War, The Peterloo Massacre, The Levellers and The Diggers (of course), The Luddites, The Tolpuddle Martyrs, The Jarrow Crusade……etc., etc. |
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15 Oct 09 - 08:25 AM (#2746443) Subject: RE: England My England From: TheSnail I'm delighted to find myself in agreement with DelG. When I had personal dealings with one of these nutters a few years ago, I naively thought I could persuade him of the error of his ways. When he started going on about the importance of the Anglo-Saxon/Scandinavian/Germanic gene pool, I pointed out that my ancestry was largely "Celtic" but, having been born in a Cotswold village, the son of a farmworker, I considered myself English. Discussions broke off shortly afterwards. |
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15 Oct 09 - 08:28 AM (#2746445) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton It seems the far right and trying to get into the folkie world - that alone shows how confused and ignorant they are. The world of folk is .............. erm ................. no I can't finish that L in C |
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15 Oct 09 - 08:29 AM (#2746447) Subject: RE: England My England From: Fred McCormick "Whoever penned this ill-informed, jingoistic drivel is unlikely to be a fascist as adherence to such an ideology involves some understanding of economics and anthropology which is clearly lacking." I doubt you'd need much more than the fingers of one hand to count the number of British fatshits who possess a grasp of economics. Regarding anthropology, the evolutionary ideas of early anthropologists undeniably gave succour to fascist ideologies, as did the works of many other Victorian thinkers, Darwin, Spencer and Malthus among them. However, more recent social anthropologists,IE., those from the early years of the twentieth century onwards, have probably done more than any other academic discipline to explode the myth of racial inequality, which fascism has continually festered on. BTW. Has English person ever been told not to call themselves English? I certainly haven't. |
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15 Oct 09 - 08:34 AM (#2746451) Subject: RE: England My England From: GUEST Good post Mr el Gnomo. It has always intrigued me that those who want to proclaim their Englishness loudest fail to acknowledge that they are descended from a long line of invaders. Angles, |Jutes, Huns, Saxons, Normans and more latterly (and, for the most part, peacably although I discount Kilburn High Road on a Friday night in the sixties) Irish, Asian, West Indian have all contributed to the cultural diversity. And those who say get over it are spot on. I watched John Prescott in dialogue with Brian Sewell on 't tele last night. Two fine Englishmen with nary a square foot of common ground between them; they could well have been from different planets. |
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15 Oct 09 - 08:47 AM (#2746459) Subject: RE: England My England From: jeddy i think the difference they are trying to talk about, is that look at the fuss that st.patricks day causes, or burns night. on st georges day, in some parts of the country, taxis are told not to wave the georges flag, public buildings are not allowed to fly the flag either. in case of upsetting people. it seems that our flag and our national pride have been stolen by football hooligans and facist thugs.not to mention our reputation of behavour in other countries. most people just want to show support and some pride in where we come from, well thats my theory anyway. as for st george, as someone else said, shouldn't our national flag be the green dragon of alfred the great, as he had the vision of this country as one kingdom? i keep saying that mudcat has gone downhill lately and i was going to give it a rest, as so many threads have decended into personal point scoring and i get bored. this is the sort of thread that keeps me coming back and keeps me interested. thankyou for proving that mudcat does still have some decenct people who can debat without it turning into a proper arguement. take care all jade x x x x |
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15 Oct 09 - 08:49 AM (#2746463) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton Brian Sewell is very silly and should not be encouraged L in C But so is John |
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15 Oct 09 - 08:56 AM (#2746468) Subject: RE: England My England From: MikeofNorthumbria The issue this thread raises is complex and controversial. I'd prefer to avoid confronting it and just get on with the rest of my life. But unfortunately it's too important (and potentially too dangerous) to ignore. So here we go … The song posted by Villan is a good example of the old adage that sometimes half a truth can be more misleading than an outright lie. That song contains two distinct messages, one quite reasonable and the other extremely questionable. The people who are pushing that song seek to blur those two messages into one, and then to persuade us that their position is the only possible one. And thereby to recruit more people to their shoddy cause. First message – the reasonable one For quite a while, English people have been encouraged to adopt a pre-emptive cringe towards the rest of humanity. We have been told to walk about with our heads bowed down in penance for the sins of our forefathers, accepting personal responsibility and individual guilt for the Highland clearances, the Irish famine, the Amritsar massacre, the North Atlantic slave trade, the fire-bombing of Dresden, etc, etc. The song argues that English people should stop cringing, and instead show more pride in the honourable parts of their own history and more enthusiasm for their own culture. On the whole, I agree. Why? Because the way that (some of) our forefathers behaved was not very different from the way people of almost every other nationality behaved at that time. The English (for a short while) did these dirty deeds more efficiently than many of their competitors. If they hadn't, their competitors would certainly have done much the same to them. That was history – the nightmare from which we are all trying to awaken. By all means let's apologise for misdeeds in the here and now – whether done by us or by those claiming to act in our name – but leave judgement on past sins to professional historians. Second message – the dangerous one The second half of the song, however, implies that the best way forward for the English would be to isolate themselves from the rest of the world. By withdrawing from the European Union (and possibly even breaking up the UK), by closing their borders to new immigrants, and by persuading or compelling recent immigrants to return to the countries they (or their parents, or their grandparents) came from. This is impossible, and even if it were possible, it would be very, very undesirable. Why? Firstly, because modern transport and communications technologies cannot be uninvented, and the globalised economy they have created cannot be dismantled. The free flow of capital, commodities, and labour between nations can be blocked temporarily, but only at an intolerable cost to the people of any nation whose government is misguided enough to go down that road. (North Korea is the classic example.) Secondly, because "England" has never been a fixed, static entity. "Our" culture has been renewed and enriched for millennia by successive waves of immigrants – Celts, Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Scandinavians, Normans, Flemings, Huguenots and Jews – all of whom have eventually put down roots and contributed massively to the wellbeing of the wider community. Most of our more recent immigrants, whether from the former British Empire or from the European Union, are equally committed to their new home, and willing to share the burdens as well as the benefits of citizenship. (Look again at the names on the casualty-lists from Iraq and Afghanistan.) They have embraced many features of our indigenous culture, while enriching it with fresh ingredients of their own – from curries to carnival. This is A GOOD THING So what is to be done then? On this topic, I agree 100% with Billy Bragg – people from the left, the centre, and the reasonable right of the political spectrum have to reclaim the concept of Englishness from the irrational right, before they contaminate it any further. And before they move on from spouting inflammatory rhetoric to doing deeds our descendants will have to apologise for in the future. Wassail! |
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15 Oct 09 - 08:59 AM (#2746471) Subject: RE: England My England From: Rasener >>i think the difference they are trying to talk about, is that look at the fuss that st.patricks day causes, or burns night. on st georges day, in some parts of the country, taxis are told not to wave the georges flag, public buildings are not allowed to fly the flag either. in case of upsetting people. it seems that our flag and our national pride have been stolen by football hooligans and facist thugs.not to mention our reputation of behavour in other countries. most people just want to show support and some pride in where we come from, well thats my theory anyway.<< Well said Jeddy and nothing offensive about that. Why can't those living in England get the same privelages and free prescriptions etc :-) |
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15 Oct 09 - 09:19 AM (#2746483) Subject: RE: England My England From: GUEST Back to the song - "To be Scottish, Irish or Welsh that's fine But don't say you're English, that's way out of line." If Scotland, Ireland and Wales are establishing their own identities then that does not diminish England in any way. It's Britain that is diminishing and good thing to. "The French and the Germans may call themselves such So may Norwegians, the Swedes and the Dutch You can say you are Russian or maybe a Dane But don't say you're English ever again." I'm Scot's and I love England and many, many things English. The problem I have is the continued failure of many English persons to differentiate between Britain/GB/UK and England. I love the fact that the words and symbols of England are being re-claimed from the far right. Let England and the other nations thrive but let's put the UK/GB state out of its misery. |
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15 Oct 09 - 09:22 AM (#2746489) Subject: RE: England My England From: Dave the Gnome I read avery good article (Guardian I think) that exploded many of the myths about town halls not being able to fly the flag, banning Christmas, not being able to say blackboard etc. etc. Wish I could find it now. To anyone who is saying that we are not allowed to celebrate Englishness I would just say this. Just who are these people that are stopping you from doing it? Have you ever tried organising any celebrations yourself? Just stop and think for a minute. Why is St Patricks day celebrated more in New York and Chicago than in Dublin? Why is Burns night massive in Nova Scotia? Why is Eid a massive event in Rusholme, Manchester? Because people away from home have the strongest feelings for their old traditions maybe? Does anyone honestly think that they would be arrested by the "PC Brigade" (God, I hate that phrase) if they laid on Roast beef and plum duff on April 23? Come on, people. give it try. It doesn't hurt. Honest! DeG |
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15 Oct 09 - 09:31 AM (#2746496) Subject: RE: England My England From: Folkiedave I get free prescriptions and have done so for six years. As far as banning St. George's Day is concerned one place that did it was Sandwell. - they did it because fascist groups had used it as an excuse for violence the previous year. Bradford's St. George's Day parade was a police organised event which whose route needed to be altered- again because of possible violence. Thanks to co-operation between local folk groups and Sheffield City Council we are expanding St. George's day each year. |
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15 Oct 09 - 09:40 AM (#2746506) Subject: RE: England My England From: Keith A of Hertford Folkiedave, everyone gets free prescriptions in Scotland and Wales. I don't get mine until next year. Will English be a permitted nationality on the 2011 census? It was not last time. One pensioner went briefly to prison for refusing to fill in the last one with other than English nationality.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/1841092.stm |
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15 Oct 09 - 09:47 AM (#2746510) Subject: RE: England My England From: Rasener Keith, was Scottish or Irish or Welsh allowed on the Census? If not, then I wouldn't have an issue. I always fill in Britsh on forms, but I am still English. Also how will you get free prescriptions in England, Keith? |
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15 Oct 09 - 09:50 AM (#2746512) Subject: RE: England My England From: greg stephens I have spent my life researching English folk music. Which I think eminently qualifies me to say that that poem/song is a load of ignorant, sub-Fascist drivelling bollocks. Fit for nothing except being printed on the back of Nick Griffin's Christmas cards. |
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15 Oct 09 - 10:06 AM (#2746519) Subject: RE: England My England From: Rasener So does it come from there Greg? |
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15 Oct 09 - 10:15 AM (#2746523) Subject: RE: England My England From: Keith A of Hertford I'll be sixty next year Villan. |
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15 Oct 09 - 10:20 AM (#2746524) Subject: RE: England My England From: Dave the Gnome It's the same on any form - And I always tick 'Other European' :-) If you look at the story the pensioner comes off as a particularly predjudiced sort of person. DeG |
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15 Oct 09 - 10:22 AM (#2746525) Subject: RE: England My England From: Rasener Does being 60 give you free prescritions in England. Well I didn't know that one. So what you are saying is that I should be getting any medical things I need for free e.g. paracetomal, cough mixture etc etc. |
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15 Oct 09 - 10:22 AM (#2746526) Subject: RE: England My England From: Jack Campin Folkiedave, everyone gets free prescriptions in Scotland and Wales. They don't in Scotland. I only started getting them free when I turned 60 a couple of months ago. Put me in mind of a speech by the Australian Priminister some time ago, saying basically they welcome with open arms anyone who wants to go and live there and help Australia be the best at anything it does He was lying. Australia's treatment of refugees in the last few years has been appalling. |
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15 Oct 09 - 10:25 AM (#2746530) Subject: RE: England My England From: Rasener >>If you look at the story the pensioner comes off as a particularly predjudiced sort of person. << He does doesn't he. However putting him in prison for wanting to say he was English is a bit harsh. |
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15 Oct 09 - 10:35 AM (#2746540) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton This post is know reaching the point where people will join in and repaet all kinds of stuff that has been said and rebutted earlier. I would ask anybody: if you can't be bothered to read the whole thread to read mikeofnorthumbria above or just don't bother. Cheers L in C |
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15 Oct 09 - 12:30 PM (#2746663) Subject: RE: England My England From: Dave the Gnome Agreed, Les, but as Mike said there are some half truths that are worse than downright lies. Take, for instance, the story that Keith quotes. Luckily the BBC seemed to cover all the right bases but can you imagine the fun that the 'irrational right' (thanks for that one as well, Mike:-) ) press will have made of it? Jailed for wanting to English? I think not. Making a fuss to fuel the fires of predjudice? make your own minds up. Cheers DeG |
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15 Oct 09 - 12:33 PM (#2746667) Subject: RE: England My England From: Jim Dixon Conservatives always find a way to portray themselves as victims. |
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15 Oct 09 - 12:43 PM (#2746673) Subject: RE: England My England From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe I agree with my Chorlton compadre, Les IC. Mike of Northumbria, Leveller, Dave El Gnomo and co have summed it up nicely. But thank you too, Villan, for posting the verse that gave rise to these splendid posts, without which, etc etc... I note that M of N uses the term "adopt a pre-emptive cringe", to which I'd like to reply, "Why thank you kindly, sir!". I've never been called "pre-emptive" before or had anyone want to adopt me... |
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15 Oct 09 - 12:53 PM (#2746681) Subject: RE: England My England From: Richard Bridge I can with joy listen to Brian Sewell speak without limit of time - just to hear his modulation and vowel sounds. Sometimes his words are fine too, but mainly it does not matter what he is saying. |
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15 Oct 09 - 03:27 PM (#2746816) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton He does it so well even when his tongue is firmly in his cheek, which is quite a feat or should that be feet? L in C |
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18 Oct 09 - 09:46 PM (#2747651) Subject: RE: England My England From: Joe_F Fred McCormick: In the statement by Orwell that you recall, he was quoting G. K. Chesterton. |
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19 Oct 09 - 04:51 AM (#2747755) Subject: RE: England My England From: GUEST,George What is Billy Bragg's other half made up of? |
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19 Oct 09 - 06:23 AM (#2747786) Subject: RE: England My England From: Ruth Archer He has Italian grandparents. |
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19 Oct 09 - 08:11 AM (#2747828) Subject: RE: England My England From: GUEST,old git DeG got there before me and made the points I was going to make. As an addition to what he was saying..I doubt very much that the majority of people who celebrate St Patrick's day or Burns'night with such gusto are overly nationalistic for the rest of the year. They are swept along with the fervour of the moment...and an excuse to party. In the same way,when the English rugby ,cricket or football teams are doing well,people who have never taken the slightest interest in these sports suddenly festoon their cars and/or houses with St George's flags. I also suspect that large numbers of people have no idea why they celebrate Nov 5...but just watch the protests if anyone tries to ban it!! (I'm sure many of us regret that Guy Fawkes and his comrades aren't still with us!...OK..before any one starts quoting historical facts...that was tongue in cheek) Les W...although I may share some of your grievances...I think the privileges and rights you think you are lacking are more to do with political expediency than attempts to suppress any feeling of Engish identity (though on this point I am largely in line with GSS geoff t ps I think the song is crass |
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19 Oct 09 - 08:27 AM (#2747835) Subject: RE: England My England From: GUEST,George So his mother/father is Italian but is his mother tongue Italian? and who does he support when Italy plays England? .. just asking. |
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19 Oct 09 - 09:04 AM (#2747853) Subject: RE: England My England From: Phil Edwards Will English be a permitted nationality on the 2011 census? It was not last time. Actually it wasn't a permitted ethnicity - there wasn't a 'nationality' Q in the 2001 Census. There will be in 2011, and both English and Welsh will be options in England, Wales and NI. (Not Cornish, though.) One pensioner went briefly to prison for refusing to fill in the last one with other than English nationality. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/1841092.stm Robert Relf - there's a foul-smelling blast from the past. |
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19 Oct 09 - 09:39 AM (#2747884) Subject: RE: England My England From: GUEST,Edthefolkie Thank God, they usually shoot themselves in their size twelves - I love the reference to George Bernard Shaw, the well known Englishman. However there is a serious point which was made earlier in the thread about far rightists trying to take over our music. I know it's been discussed elsewhere, but I'll mention it again - Griffin's apologists/associates are or were selling material by people like Show of Hands and Fairport on their websites (without the knowledge of said people of course). This is quite dangerous as it gives the impression that there are people with actual ability associated with their cause (as well as dreadful doggerel merchants). |
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20 Oct 09 - 03:31 AM (#2748520) Subject: RE: England My England From: Rasener Geoff, my reason for posting was not that I liked the lyrics/poetry whatever you may want to call it or agreed with its sentiments. I posted it becuase it concerned me that this sort of e-mail encourages people to send it to other poeple who have e-mail, thus ensuring it gets to a mass market. Note the last line of the e-mail says "If you are English pass it on please" I do not forward any sort of e-mail like this on. Its pure spamming, but I was concerned about its origins etc. |
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20 Oct 09 - 05:19 AM (#2748541) Subject: RE: England My England From: ard mhacha Villan, it looks like UKIP, or as Martin O`Neill would say. `Villa for Europe`, which we are told is across those wide seas. |
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20 Oct 09 - 06:34 AM (#2748566) Subject: RE: England My England From: Rasener LOL Ard |
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20 Oct 09 - 07:32 AM (#2748589) Subject: RE: England My England From: GUEST,old git Les, I fully understood your reasons for posting this. My comments were in reply to your comment "Why can't those living in England get the same privileges ,free prescriptions etc." I get free prescriptions...I'm over 60. geoff t |
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20 Oct 09 - 07:40 AM (#2748595) Subject: RE: England My England From: Rasener Hi Geoff Yes OK I am with you now :-) Cheers Les |
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20 Oct 09 - 07:50 AM (#2748605) Subject: RE: England My England From: Keith A of Hertford Just Wales that gets free prescriptions then. Sorry. Scotland does get free care for the old and no tuition fees for university. They are also introducing free school meals. |
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20 Oct 09 - 08:25 AM (#2748615) Subject: RE: England My England From: Keith A of Hertford And in Scotland they are already cheaper than in England, and will be free next year! http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2007/12/05141211 |
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20 Oct 09 - 08:27 AM (#2748616) Subject: RE: England My England From: Keith A of Hertford Prescription charges that is. sorry |
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20 Oct 09 - 08:44 AM (#2748624) Subject: RE: England My England From: TheSnail I'm a bit confused about the implications of there being no free prescriptions in England (except for those who do get them like me). Is this seen as some dreadful anti-English conspiracy by the Scots and Welsh? The Villan asks "Why can't those living in England get the same privelages and free prescriptions etc". Because that is what the Westminster parliament has decided. Aneurin Bevan, who was largely responsible for founding the NHS, was Welsh by the way. |
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20 Oct 09 - 08:47 AM (#2748628) Subject: RE: England My England From: Keith A of Hertford Scottish MPs voted for England not to have what the Scots enjoy. Without their votes the government could not have got away with it. |
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20 Oct 09 - 09:18 AM (#2748653) Subject: RE: England My England From: TheSnail So, Keith, you are saying it's an anti-English conspiracy by the Scots. Do you have the voting figures? |
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20 Oct 09 - 09:34 AM (#2748662) Subject: RE: England My England From: Keith A of Hertford Mr Clarke gave the 2004 vote to bring in annual student tuition fees of up to £3,000 a year in England as an example. The government had managed a Commons majority only through its Scottish and Welsh MPs, even though the fees do not apply in the country, he said. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7481906.stm |
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20 Oct 09 - 09:41 AM (#2748666) Subject: RE: England My England From: Keith A of Hertford Researchers at the Constitution Unit at University College London identified four votes in the 2001-2005 parliament where a measure was carried by Scottish MPs. The votes were on the second and third readings of two bills. The Health and Social Care Bill, which introduced Foundation Hospitals, and the Higher Education Bill, which introduced Tuition Fees - which are not payable at Scottish universities. Both bills would have been defeated by a narrow margin (between 1 and 17 votes) if only English MPs had voted. http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/domestic_politics/factcheck%20do%20scottish%20mps%20tell%20england%20what%20to%20 |
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20 Oct 09 - 09:47 AM (#2748669) Subject: RE: England My England From: Rasener If that is the case, shouldn't us English demand a re- vote without the Scots and Welsh voting? |
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20 Oct 09 - 10:01 AM (#2748672) Subject: RE: England My England From: Keith A of Hertford Many did. |
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20 Oct 09 - 10:47 AM (#2748696) Subject: RE: England My England From: TheSnail That's pretty conclusive, Keith. It really is a dastardly Scottish plot against the English. You'll be telling me next that the Prime Minister is Scottish. I just wonder how they managed to persuade all those English MPs to join them in their evil scheme. |
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20 Oct 09 - 10:55 AM (#2748699) Subject: RE: England My England From: Keith A of Hertford it is a little more complex than that. Scotland has an SNP government. It suits them to antagonise the English to further the chance of their independence. They keep giving themselves things they know the government can not afford to give us. But, the government has no majority without its Scottish MPs so has to use them to vote down the English Opposition MPs. |
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20 Oct 09 - 11:05 AM (#2748708) Subject: RE: England My England From: Rasener The bounders. |
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20 Oct 09 - 11:24 AM (#2748715) Subject: RE: England My England From: TheSnail I still don't understand why the English MPs voted for this anti-English legislation. |
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20 Oct 09 - 11:41 AM (#2748733) Subject: RE: England My England From: Keith A of Hertford Only those under government whip did. |
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20 Oct 09 - 12:02 PM (#2748752) Subject: RE: England My England From: TheSnail So how many of those Scottish MPs were under government whip and how many weren't? |
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20 Oct 09 - 01:44 PM (#2748820) Subject: RE: England My England From: Keith A of Hertford All. |
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20 Oct 09 - 01:46 PM (#2748821) Subject: RE: England My England From: TheSnail They were all under government whip? |
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20 Oct 09 - 03:02 PM (#2748883) Subject: RE: England My England From: GUEST,old git Les this is what I meant by political expediency. geoff |
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20 Oct 09 - 03:11 PM (#2748888) Subject: RE: England My England From: Keith A of Hertford Yes, the government was asked to allow them to abstain since they were voting to deny English people something that their own constituents were granted. The government refused. |
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20 Oct 09 - 07:00 PM (#2749036) Subject: RE: England My England From: McGrath of Harlow Does being 60 give you free prescritions in England. Simple answer, yes. Have a look at the prescription form next time you have one, and tick the appropriate bit. After I turned 60 I didn't realise that for a year or so - I'd rather assumed I'd have wait until I turned 65. As for "England" - if the Tories get back in, I don't imagine it'll be too long before the Scots and the Welsh go independent. Which will mean that "Britain" will once more be a geographical term rather than a political one, and England will be a nation once again - made up of all shades and varieties of people. |
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21 Oct 09 - 02:14 AM (#2749189) Subject: RE: England My England From: Paul Burke Dick asked who built Hadrian's Wall, and why. And why it was where it was. Well point one is it was nothing to do with the English, or the Scots, who wouldn't be around for another few hundred years. The builders were a very cosmopolitan bunch of military types, who included native Celts, Romans, Spaniards, Germans, French (anachronism of course), Greeks, Africans and Syrians, among others. What for? Its use varied over time (it was in use for about 250 years)- from triumphal border marker, customs post, defensive line, immigration control, base for patrols. It served several of these purposes at any one time, though the mix varied. Why there? It's certain that at most times the area beyond the wall was Roman controlled or at least influenced, but probably wasn't worth the tax money of a permanent presence. It was poor enough to treat almost like the Jordan desert, not worth the effort. It was about the shortest possible route for effective purposes- the Antonine Wall was shorter as a wall, but badly outflanked either side by the Clyde and Forth estuaries, whereas Hadrian's had the easily patrolled Solway Firth on the West, and a straightish inhospitable coastline on the East. |
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21 Oct 09 - 03:05 AM (#2749206) Subject: RE: England My England From: Rasener Thanks Mcgrath. I didn't realise that. |
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21 Oct 09 - 03:07 AM (#2749208) Subject: RE: England My England From: Rasener Nice clear post Paul. |
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21 Oct 09 - 03:31 AM (#2749217) Subject: RE: England My England From: Keith A of Hertford A nation once again McGrath? We could make a song about that. |
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21 Oct 09 - 09:19 AM (#2749404) Subject: RE: England My England From: TheSnail Keith A of Hertford They keep giving themselves things they know the government can not afford to give us. But, the government has no majority without its Scottish MPs so has to use them to vote down the English Opposition MPs. So there's the answer to The Villan's question, we haven't got free prescriptions because we can't afford them although, without the vote of the Scottish MPs, the act would not have been passed and .... er.... we still wouldn't have free prescriptions since prescription charges have been there since they were introduced in 1952. Damned clever forward thinking by those devious Scots Nats. |
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21 Oct 09 - 10:05 AM (#2749440) Subject: RE: England My England From: Keith A of Hertford Yes it is clever. They cause huge resentment among English people who have to sell their homes for residential care, while their Scots neighbours get it and prescriptions free. And the English have to subsidise the Scots too. The plan to make the English in favour of Scottish independence is working well. |
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21 Oct 09 - 01:15 PM (#2749559) Subject: RE: England My England From: TheSnail So the problem is not that England have prescription fees but that Scotland doesn't? Will English people who have to sell their homes for residential care feel happier about it if tghey know the Scots have to as well? |
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21 Oct 09 - 01:32 PM (#2749573) Subject: RE: England My England From: Jim McLean England is a nation just now. They just don't have a parliament. |
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21 Oct 09 - 02:23 PM (#2749594) Subject: RE: England My England From: Keith A of Hertford Snail, yes. Provision should fair, and not favour one group over another. |
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21 Oct 09 - 02:42 PM (#2749609) Subject: RE: England My England From: TheSnail There you are The Villan. I expect you'd feel much better about paying prescription charges if you knew that Jim McLean had to as well. |
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21 Oct 09 - 09:04 PM (#2749889) Subject: RE: England My England From: Tug the Cox Lots of confusion here....If Scotland were Indeoendent, Eglish people would still pay for presriptions and care for the elderly. Is it being suggested, anywhere, that an independent Scotland would suddenly re-impose these charges? |
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21 Oct 09 - 09:21 PM (#2749898) Subject: RE: England My England From: Peace "Goodbye to England - Stormfront4 posts - 4 authors - Last post: 15 Aug Goodbye to my England! So long my old friend! Your days are now numbered, being brought to an end. To be Scottish, or Irish, ... www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=629487 - Cached - Similar" It's on Stormfront. They're about as smart as rocks, so it'll give you some idea the quality of the song. |
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22 Oct 09 - 04:23 AM (#2750040) Subject: RE: England My England From: Jim McLean Jim McLean has lived in England for over 40 years and is 71 so prescription charges are not a personal issue. Incidentally I don't remember when I was last at the doctor's (maybe I've got Alzeimers!) |
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22 Oct 09 - 05:15 AM (#2750049) Subject: RE: England My England From: Rasener Sounds like this thread has got to the end of its purpose. Thanks guys, some very inbteresting comments made and helpful as well. Thanks for keeping it free of flaming. |
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22 Oct 09 - 09:12 AM (#2750176) Subject: RE: England My England From: GUEST,Bardan Nothing wrong with being english (or any other nationality really.) What's rather more dubious is the idea we should all be running around like headless chickens because the terrible beaurocrats in brussels or the 'PC brigade' (hahahahaha) are attacking us. Last time I was in England, 'englishness' seemed rather safe to be honest, so long as it doesn't get hijacked by far right idiots I can't really see the danger to a rather fluid and undefinable national identity. |
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05 Nov 09 - 03:27 PM (#2760325) Subject: RE: England My England From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Gez's myspace - 'Song for St. George' England, my England. |
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05 Nov 09 - 05:24 PM (#2760403) Subject: RE: England My England From: Paul Davenport Odd, given that this is a music thread, that nobody's mentioned the fact that you need a license to play music in England…punishment is £20,000 fine or 6 months in prison!!! But not in Scotland or Northern Ireland. In Scunthorpe a publican got a license extension (drinking) for St Patricks Day but was refused it for St George's Day. No doubt someone will correct this but I always understood that the term 'English' was coined to embrace what had become a multi-cutural society some time in the late Middle Ages. But then again… |
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05 Nov 09 - 05:50 PM (#2760422) Subject: RE: England My England From: Lizzie Cornish 1 We're proud of our heritage and the Red, White and Blue Fly the flag of Saint George or the Union Jack Let the world know - WE WANT OUR ENGLAND BACK !!!! <<<< Someone said, sniffily, above, that England's flag has no blue in it. Well yes, that's fairly obvious, as is what is being said there in those words I've quoted...that the English are proud of both *their* heritage and that of Great Britain too. This thread...and no Villan, I am not flaming, just flaming mad...this thread sums up all that has given the BNP such power! The instant, hysterical cries of 'Facist!' purely because someone has written some words about being fed up at not being able to celebrate their country. Oh fer goodness sake, you lot, grow UP! This Extreme Left campaign to take England our of the English has failed miserably, causing a backlash they never envisaged...and that is to let the REAL facists *in* amongst people who are sick fed up of not being able to be proud of their country. There is nothing wrong at all in looking back at England's past. Why the hell shouldn't we do that? We have the most amazing past, one that is so often the envy of the world. It's called....er....our HISTORY and it encompasses so much good, amongst the bad. There are times when I feel a little like England you know, because the Extreme Left has splattered untruths about me to, it has put many people off being close to me, put them off daring to stand beside me and with me....so I know exactly how their campaigns work. They are often filled with more hatred than the people they profess to hate so much, being just as determined to weed out those amongst them who they feel 'do not belong'. I love this country, it is my country, the land of my birth. It is where I grew up and it is where, apart from a short weekend in Paris about 30 years back, I have spent every single waking day of my life. It is the country my dear Dad and his pals went to war for. It is the country Douglas Bader and his pals put their lives on the line for. It is the country Mike Harding's Dad gave his life for. It is the most beautiful country. It is a country where half the world seemingly wants to come and live. Why is that do you think? It is a welcoming, arms outstretched, falling over sideways to be called anything but racist country, where folks are welcomed from around the globe, regardless of race, colour or background. It is a country of cricket played on village greens, where ancient trees still grow amongst the country houses....where the bells ring out from the church spires...and ancient woodlands still exist alongside motorways and new towns. But...... .....it is a country that has lost her way. She has had her religion lambasted by the Extreme Left, she has had her history covered over. Her people have been brainwashed into denying her at times... 'They' bleat on about St. George not even being English, when the whole bloody point of the tale of St. George and the Dragon is about Good defeating Evil....and as a child, I loved the thought that my country stood for Good. I was raised by a man who loved England, who had England running through his veins...and that blood runs in mine too. Loving England does NOT make you a racist or a facist.... I have been called both. I am neither. I don't give a flying English arrow who does or does not believe that, nor who spreads vile rumours about me to the contrary, because *I* know, and that is way good enough for me. People have been frightened into NOT admitting that they love their country. There has been a campaign of intimidation about this whole sorry affair...and those who have carried it out should shake their heads in sorrow for what they've done. Yes, we love curry over here. Yes, we love The Nottinghill Carnival. Yes, we love many things from other countries, but yes, we also love ENGLAND and there is NOTHING wrong with that. As I have said before...I have no problem if the cricket of today is played by rainbow coloured people, under church spires on village greens.... What I DO have a problem with is people telling me that this is a 'chocolate box fantasy' of England, because it is NOT. I watched those cricket matches, I was there at the time...and they are amongst my many thousands of memories of my country. I am deeply proud of my country, but also deeply distressed at what has happened to so many of her young people, who are drinking themselves into obllivion, and yes, the Extreme Left will of course deny this is happening, as ever...but tell me, why is it costing the NHS a fortune, if it's not happening? We have young people who know nothing of their history! And what is worse, they don't care. They simply live for the next party, the next club night out, the next Posh Spice new frock. They have no sense of who they are...no 'roots'....... And as someone once said... "We've lost more than we'll ever know round the rocky shores of England" To deny this country, because you are shit scared of the BNP aligning themselves with you, is ridiculous. Take the flag BACK, don't burn it or tell others not to be associated with it for Gawd's sake! You make the flag of St. George stand for the very thing it has always stood for, Good Over Evil....and you take it BACK from the BNP and from the Extreme Left to, putting it back into the hands of the English people themselves, of all colours. Love my country......or leave it, but do NOT tell me to deny it...and in my not denying my pride, do not call me a facist or a racist, because that way of thinking has done more damage, given more power to the BNP than the Extremists could ever have dreamt would happen. |
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05 Nov 09 - 05:58 PM (#2760427) Subject: RE: England My England From: Lizzie Cornish 1 'Song for Saint George' written by Gez (see link to his myspace page above) It was this time last year when they told us to hide To hide our St. George Flag away "Take them down from your windows, they litter our streets If you don't, they'll be much hell to pay And we'll fine you if you choose to, so it's best you choose not It's worse than the Union Jack For St. George is dead and buried We suggest you sit down, shut up, and please don't answer back Just sit down Just sit down Just sit down No, don't stand your ground" On St. George's Day morning I want to run through my street Find its Bank Holiday with her parties so sweet Send my love to my country, be proud of this place See the flags flown from windows, with a smile on my face But I fear Monday morn' we'll regret we were born In this country of green promised land And we'll trudge off to work with no pride in our heart And no love for our own countrymen Oh the Irish - St. Patrick, The Welsh - David's Day The Scottish - St. Andrew I'm told Celebrated by all who arouse one and all Old St. George has been left in the cold Don't sit down! Don't sit down! Don't sit down! Just stand your ground! On St. George's Day morning I want to run through my town Find its Bank Holiday with my neighbours around Send my love to my country, be proud of this place See the flags flown from windows, with a smile on my face I know is I'm small, yet I try to stand tall For my country on St. George's Day Raise a glass to Old England my neighbours and friends So they know that he's not gone away I'll run with my flag in the cool winter spring Through the fields and the streets of this land You can take Old St. George from our windows and doors In my heart there remains an England You can take Old St. George from our windows and doors In my heart there remains an England You can take old St. George from my windows and doors In my heart there remains an England |
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05 Nov 09 - 06:08 PM (#2760434) Subject: RE: England My England From: McGrath of Harlow What about the Cornish Flag? They could incorporate it into the Union Flag,and put an end to "there ain't no Black in the Union Jack". |
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05 Nov 09 - 06:21 PM (#2760445) Subject: RE: England My England From: Lizzie Cornish 1 I like that... :0) Not sure the Cornish would though.. ;0) |
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05 Nov 09 - 06:49 PM (#2760463) Subject: RE: England My England From: GUEST Angle Land - England Where did the Angles come from? |
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05 Nov 09 - 09:59 PM (#2760553) Subject: RE: England My England From: Ian Fyvie There are several points worth separating and developing in this thread. Can't do much on it now as I've just got back from the Folk Club (and discussion afterwards) 5 pints worse for wear. The problem seems to be that everyone's allowed to have a cultural identity apart from the English. There are Left, Right and Middle of the political road justifications for this. Because the Left, Centre and mainstream Right go along worth this (for their own reasons), it's left a vacuum for the Racist Right* to fill. A sad consequence is that anything seen as trying to promote an English cultural identity (Folk music, morris dancing, St Georges Day etc) is seen as probably racism motivated. *very important to differentiate between the Racist Right and the Economic Right. The real Fascists are the Econimic Right. To call the Racist Right "Fascist" is politiclly stupid. The Economic Right would have no problem fielding a Junta of Black Lesbians to front a real Fascist state. |
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06 Nov 09 - 02:33 AM (#2760619) Subject: RE: England My England From: Lizzie Cornish 1 "A sad consequence is that anything seen as trying to promote an English cultural identity (Folk music, morris dancing, St Georges Day etc) is seen as probably racism motivated." I don't see it as that....Why would I think that singing, dancing, or celebrating St. George's Day is racist?????? You see, this is the part I don't understand...the part that makes no sense whatsoever. |
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06 Nov 09 - 03:19 AM (#2760632) Subject: RE: England My England From: Spleen Cringe On his Myspace "Gez" (cited above) says he wrote his flag song as a result of "the authorities" banning the flying of the English flag on St George's day. I would challenge him (or anyone else for that matter) to come up with one single genuine example of this happening. Modern English identity seems largely to be based on an irrational paranoia about mysterious others who are out to piss on English fireworks. It doesn't have to be... |
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06 Nov 09 - 03:28 AM (#2760637) Subject: RE: England My England From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Teachers and the flag Peterborough Council and flags - BBC site Prosecution "We have rules and regulations that are set down by government and are in legislation and we have to abide to them and we can't ignore them." "Laws are in place and Peterborough has been known to prosecute people for hanging out flags in the World Cup season or European Cup season and we have to uphold this, there has to be a level playing field." explained Cllr Murphy. The laws where councils could prosecute have now been removed, it would seem. Bloody good job too. |
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06 Nov 09 - 03:31 AM (#2760639) Subject: RE: England My England From: Lizzie Cornish 1 prosecution - BBC site National Flag ban lifted - 2006 BBC site |
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06 Nov 09 - 06:41 AM (#2760691) Subject: RE: England My England From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe Ok, so we have an official from ONE council (Peterborough) in 2004 who cited "national legislation" - in fact planning laws on advertising - to ban flag flying except from a flag pole (note - all flags, not just St George's flags). Quite rightly the council then backed down, which brings them in line with the many other councils who turn a blind eye to such minor breaches of planning law. To suggest the St George's flag has been in some way singled out is more of a reflection of the willful paranoia of a narrow strata of the English population and the readiness of the media to seize on a "good" story than anything else. Of course, it will then be repeated and repeated and become part of the fakelore trotted out by those who wish to have us believe English culture is under seige. This is from the House of Commons website: "Individuals and organizations may fly the Union Flag whenever they wish, subject to local planning requirements. These have been relaxed recently. The DCMS Flags Protocol website advises as follows: Under Schedule 1 Class H of the Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) (England) Regulations 2007, national flags, the flags of the Commonwealth, European Union, the United Nations, English counties and certain saints can be flown without the express consent of local authorities as long as they satisfy the standard conditions for the display of advertisements generally and the conditions and limitations set out within Class H itself. For saints' flags, the conditions are that they can only be flown in the county with which the saint is associated. This means that the St. Piran's flag may be flown freely in Cornwall, but express consent would be required for it to be flown elsewhere in England. If any of these flags are to be flown no further planning permission is needed for the flagpole, however it may be required if other flags are to be flown" The Union Flag and Flags of the United Kingdom, House of Commons June 2008 As for the Sun story, I suspect we'd have to look at the report they cite for the truth. Oh look, here it is: Childhood Wellbeing. And on page 65 of a 76 page report there are a couple of paragraphs on this issue - the very ones the Sun chose to highlight (interestingly they didn't highlighted the "aggressive defensiveness evident in many of the discussions" some of the parents interviewed displayed around race and immigration). It should also be pointed out that this was a small study, interviewing 9 groups of around 20 parents to elicit their perceptions. They were not expected to evidence their beliefs and assumptions (and of course, neither should they be in a study that is essentially designed to get people to share their attitudes and perceptions). |
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06 Nov 09 - 07:07 AM (#2760710) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton A well argued case Mr Cringe, well done. I will now break one of my own bits of guidance - that people should read earlier post before they join and endlessly repeat what others have said - I feel sure you will let me know if I am doing so. I genuinely don't understand what "being proud of England" or even "England my England" really means. Quite a few things have happened in England in the last few thousand years and people alive know have nothing to do with, or are in any way responsible for, most of those things. I guess most of us feel at one with those who opposed slavery and against those who favoured it. History is full of such stuff. I am not sure how pride fits into this. Biology is what people are and culture is what they do. People in England have done lots of things so we have lots and lots of culture. In the context of this site and folky stuff we enjoy old sings, tunes, dances and so on. They are very tiny part of our culture. As was The Compleat Dancing Master, Sonets, Music Hall, Black Face Minstrelsy, Bear Baiting, Witch Burning and general religious intolerance. So, which bit of all this are we proud of? Pick a bit you like. But proud? Proud of it all - probably not. So what does it mean to be proud of England or English Culture? I know what I like and I will try to give other people a chance to see and hear it. Cheers L in C |
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06 Nov 09 - 07:19 AM (#2760714) Subject: RE: England My England From: Dave the Gnome I posted what I was proud of about England itself earlier, Les. Multi-culturalism and, in the main, tollerance, was the gist of it. I also said there is no way that anyone can be proud of being born in England - It was not their choice. One can only be genuinely proud of one's own achievements - not accidents of birth. I was going to comment on the links posted as well but Mr cringe has done it far more eloquently. Lizzie - you are quite right of course. None of the things you mention are racist. The trouble is certain parts have been hijacked by the far right and perpetuating the myths put about by the rags does nothing but help their cause I'm afraid. It is always worth checking out facts before quoting the headlines. Cheers DeF |
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06 Nov 09 - 07:24 AM (#2760717) Subject: RE: England My England From: Lizzie Cornish 1 See, here we go again....being told that having pride in our country is a bad thing. Of course, it's OK for the Welsh, the Scots, or the Irish...but nope, not for the English. |
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06 Nov 09 - 07:28 AM (#2760720) Subject: RE: England My England From: Jack Blandiver English cultural identity (Folk music, morris dancing, St Georges Day etc) Who wants a cultural ID founded on bogus volkish revivalism? Give me real, living, thriving, English culture - the sort of stuff that millions of English people are living day-in day-out which most certainly does NOT involve Folk Music, Morris Dancing, St Georges Day etc.. Such things are but the hobbyist concern of a tiny middle-class minority whose concerns are, I fear, somewhat misplaced with respect of the realities of cultural and, more importantly, individual identity in the UK today. Enjoy it by all means, but the more you bang this shit as being our common heritage the more the nationalists are going to believe you! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHF8SgmLXSc |
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06 Nov 09 - 07:29 AM (#2760725) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton Exlnt Dave. Something I have noticed over a thousand years of running or being involved in folkie events is that the Press almost always get something wrong. The venue, the date, the cost, the people all these and more are endlessly given out in error. I would say to anybody who quotes the "Popular Press" they get it wrong in simple incontinences things so don't trust them, and please don't quote them, when they write about anything a bit complicated especially where a degree of sensitivity is needed. L in C |
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06 Nov 09 - 07:32 AM (#2760730) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton Lizzie: See, "here we go again....being told that having pride in our country is a bad thing" No, no really. I just don't know which bit you are proud of and how you choose that and reject the rest and still call it "England" L in C |
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06 Nov 09 - 07:33 AM (#2760731) Subject: RE: England My England From: GUEST,Spleen again QUOTE: "Of course, it's OK for the Welsh, the Scots, or the Irish...but nope, not for the English"... Who here is saying that? This is what I mean by paranoia. |
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06 Nov 09 - 07:33 AM (#2760732) Subject: RE: England My England From: Keith A of Hertford A country as it is now is a function of its past. The struggle against tyranny and intolerance has been more successful here than in many countries. That makes us a destination of choice for millions of migrants and potential migrants. We can be proud of that. There were many martyrs in those struggles. Many knew that only future Britons would benefit from their sacrifices. We can be proud of that. In 1940 this country stood alone against the fascist axis, and against the odds, prevailed. That was my parents' generation. I feel proud of them. My grandparents' generation made huge sacrifices to prevent the Kaiser's miltarist and fascist regime conquering Europe. I feel pride for them too. |
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06 Nov 09 - 07:45 AM (#2760740) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton I agree with all that Keith, well said but, (sorry sucking eggs I know) "England or Britain" or some such thing, like many European countries went off around the globe taking over places and removing much wealth. This was bad and many of those places are still suffering from the consequences. None of us a responsible for any of this and although we sill benefit from the advantage gained the original sin was not mine or our generation's. So proud (?) of some things and not others? L in C |
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06 Nov 09 - 07:47 AM (#2760741) Subject: RE: England My England From: GUEST,Spleen. Final contribution. Gotta go to work Fly the flag of Saint George or the Union Jack Let the world know - WE WANT OUR ENGLAND BACK Who is the "we"? Does it include English people of all cultural and ethnic origins? Who do "we" want "our England back" from? Who is accused of stealing it from "us"? Where have "they" hidden it? What are "they" doing to it? Does it involve invasive procedures? What do "they" look like? What exactly is it that "we" want back? England circa 1979? 1947? 1912? 1750? Do "we" just want the "good" bits? Or will "we" also accept child labour, no votes for women or workers, slavery, rural poverty, enclosure and so on? Do we want the mythical "Merrie England" beloved of Victorian fantasists? "We" never had that in the first place! This inane ditty raises far more questions than it answers. Some of the questions have worrying implications. Exploring these issues is not an attack on Englishness but is part of the debate on what Englishness in the 21st century really means. |
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06 Nov 09 - 07:51 AM (#2760744) Subject: RE: England My England From: Green Man If a man is standing in a forest in England and there aren't any women in earshot and he says something Is he STILL wrong? |
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06 Nov 09 - 07:56 AM (#2760750) Subject: RE: England My England From: Lizzie Cornish 1 No Dave...certain parts of this have ALSO been hijacked by the Extreme Left. Both sides have their agendas and both sides are wrong. The Left has given the Right power to take many of those in the middle forward, down the wrong path, because of their continuous suppression of so many things that England stands for. You cannot tell a nation that they mustn't look back! Geez, half the world would roll over for our incredible history! If you don't look back, then you can't look forward, because you do not know where you've come from, where you are now or where you are going to. Christianity has been almost wiped out. The Royal family likewise.. And whether you agree or disagree about either, they are both a huge part of our nation's history. The Far Left despise the Royals, so....they had to go...all mention of them too, and anyone who DARED to mention them would be called a middle class ***t, with racist and classist overtones.. I was called 'a nasty little racist' way back. You know why? Because I dared to tell someone who'd not lived even half the years I have in this country that possibly I understood a little more what it was like to be English. that perhaps you had to have England flowing through you to be able to understand where we came from, how life used to be. This was after I'd been told that my true and crystal clear memories of cricket played upon an English village lawn, in the shadow of the church spire, was a chocolate box vision that had never existed. I explained to the American personn concerned that had I arrived on the shores of America and spent 10/15 years of my life there, I'd not have the same memories as someone who had lived there for over 50years..and that this person, being American and having lived the majority of their life over there, would, in my eyes, be far more American than I would ever hope to be. Yes, I would probably be an American citizen by then, but no way would I have that same sense of the past of that country, because I had lived all those years somewhere else... That isn't racist. It's fact. Don't come over here then start telling me how my country used to be decades back, because you weren't there. I was. I remember the communities, the kindness, the gentleness that was so often a part of England. It hasn't always been 'this way'...and no amount of screeching that it has will make that true. I've lived here all my 54 years..and I was raised by parents who were a generation apart..my father being so much older...and I have many of his values, I realise that... My Dad epitomosed what 'being English' means, to me. It's good manners, tolerance, a sense of honesty and integrity. It's standing up for those who cannot stand up for themselves. It's about fair play and decency. We were known, and admired, for so many of these things around the world...and now we are despised. And part of that reason has been that we have let those with other agendas almost force us to despise ourselves. We have had nothing but the badness poured down on us, to the point where our young people can't believe that they come from a country that was once looked up to around the world. We have let Hollywood turn us into the bad guys, but what is far worse is that we have turned OURSELVES into the Bad Guys, because we constantly bleat on about how terrible we've been, what we've done, how we deserve this or that to happen to us now... Well sod that. ALL countries have shitty parts to their history. And that is exactly what it is, history. Speak to me of slavery, yes...but balance it out with also speaking to me of William Wilberforce...Speak to me of the Empire, but also balance it with the GOOD things the Empire did. Speak to me of the Royal Family, but don't wipe out the entire history, the amazing history that surrounds them.. There is a deeply neurotic faction in this country who love nothing more than to label anyone and everyone as a racist or a facist, if they feel threatened by those who dare to disagree with them. They use those words because they are the new ways to intimidate, isolate and suppress..the new 'you're a Commie!'...to which mud normally sticks. Of course, they refuse to see their behaviour is as divisive and wrong as that of the Far Right, who also seek to drive out those they do not consider to be of their 'tribe' I'm not frightened to talk about England, my love of England, my pride in being English. I'm not frightened about the abuse that comes my way...but many are, and so they keep quiet and fester silently....and then, along come the BNP who talk about much of what these people are feeling..and voila, into their arms they fly.... By trying to suppress the English from feeling English, 'they' have let in the Facists...The Extreme Left has done so much of it themselves.. You couldn't make it up, you really couldn't... Yeesh! |
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06 Nov 09 - 08:04 AM (#2760756) Subject: RE: England My England From: Lizzie Cornish 1 "Who is the "we"? Does it include English people of all cultural and ethnic origins?" I would most certainly hope so. |
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06 Nov 09 - 08:07 AM (#2760762) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton "England or Britain" or some such thing, like many European countries went off around the globe taking over places and removing much wealth. This was bad and many of those places are still suffering from the consequences. None of us a responsible for any of this and although we sill benefit from the advantage gained the original sin was not mine or our generation's. So proud (?) of some things and not others? L in C |
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06 Nov 09 - 08:27 AM (#2760777) Subject: RE: England My England From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) I love being English and for all that is flawed about this culture, I identify with lots of it: a great language full of really interesting words, gorgeous woodland - currently at it's most attractive (arguably), an ongoing tradition of great quirky comedy, oodles of fabulous literature to dive into, those stodgy winter puddings, apple orchards and scrumpy, Kurryoke on a Saterday night down the Rose & Crown* and on it goes... None of it's "mine" in the sense of *owning* it personally that's why no-one can take it away, but it is "mine" in the sense that I (and of course all of us) have free access to it all at anytime it's wanted. The only think that really stinks about England is the poxy nationalists who keep jumping up and down about people stealing "their" England from them. Well wake-up call, none of that stuff I cited went *anywhere*, no Eurocrat or meany Lefty or immigrant spirited it away, it's all just sitting there quite unmolested all Englishy and nice ready to be appreciated and enjoyed. All it takes is putting on a pair of walking boots, or having a sense of humour, or having learned your ABC to get out there into England and 'reclaim' all that Englishy Englishness right back again.. Simples. *I must confess I've not yet been to the 'Kurryoke', but I'm tempted.. |
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06 Nov 09 - 08:29 AM (#2760778) Subject: RE: England My England From: Mr Happy Here's a song about England I enjoy! THE CAPTAINS AND THE KINGS Brendan Behan I remember in September, when the final stumps were drawn, And the shouts of crowds now silent when the boys to tea had gone. Let us, oh Lord above us, remember simple things, When all are dead who love us, Oh the Captains and the Kings, When all are dead who love us, Oh the Captains and the Kings. We have many goods for export, Christian ethics and old port But our greatest boast is that the Anglo-Saxon is a sport When the darts game they are finished, & the boys their game of rings And the drafts and chess relinquished Oh the captains and the kings And the drafts and chess relinquished Oh the captains and the kings Far away in dear old Cyprus, or in Kenya's dusty land, We bear the white man's burden in many a strange land. As we look across our shoulder, in West Belfast the school bell rings, And we sigh for dear old England, and the Captains and the Kings. And we sigh for dear old England, and the Captains and the Kings. In our dreams we see old Harrow, and we hear the crow's load caw At the flower show our big marrow takes the prize from Evelyn Waugh Cups of tea and some dry Sherry, vintage cars, these simple things So let`s drink up and be merry, for the captains and the kings So let`s drink up and be merry, for the captains and the kings As I wandered in a nightmare all around Great Windsor Park, Now what did you think I found there as I wandered in the dark? It was an apple half-bitten, and sweetest of all things, Five baby teeth had written of the Captains and the Kings. Five baby teeth had written of the Captains and the Kings. By the moon that shines above us in the misty morning light Let us cease to run ourselves down and praise God that we are white And better still are English, tea and toast and muffin rings And old ladies with stern faces and the captains and the kings And old ladies with stern faces and the captains and the kings |
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06 Nov 09 - 08:52 AM (#2760785) Subject: RE: England My England From: Ruth Archer "I was called 'a nasty little racist' way back. You know why? Because I dared to tell someone who'd not lived even half the years I have in this country that possibly I understood a little more what it was like to be English. that perhaps you had to have England flowing through you to be able to understand where we came from, how life used to be. This was after I'd been told that my true and crystal clear memories of cricket played upon an English village lawn, in the shadow of the church spire, was a chocolate box vision that had never existed." Actually, Lizzie, I have lived half my life in England, and half in America. When you were rhapsodising over village greens, cricket and spitfires, I told you that this chocolate box vision was somewhat undermined by the realities of the past: rural poverty, enclosure, childhood disease and death, and the many iniquities of the class system. It is also undermined by the present, because (as I told you then) I do live in a rural village and I know that - for SOME people - this is a part of their lives. There are far more people in contemporary Britain, however, for whom your chocolate-box vision is a complete irrelevance. I also remember saying that your whimsical catalogue of England and everything about it that you loved did not seem to include things like Notting Hill Carnival, Mela, or any brown people. You then told me I could not understand this vision of England because I did not have England "running through every part of me" - in other words, my blood was not English enough to ever truly understand this country. You did not disagree with this. Well, if that's true of me presumably it's true of every other person who lives in England but was not born here. So, in your Englands, we will always be outsiders. And the fact is that the real, living breathing England of 2009 has, for the majority of people, regardless of culture or origin, a lot more to do with urban culture and diversity than the treacly, whimsical nonsense you were espousing at the time. You would not accept this. You also went on to launch one of your nasty, hysterical attacks on my culture. That's whay I called you a racist. I think the things you said at that time were at the very least xenophobic, at worst racist. I find the Daily Mail, red-top politics you continue to espouse deplorable. I didn't apologise then and I don't now. |
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06 Nov 09 - 09:02 AM (#2760793) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton Well, I think that had to be said or said again and it is well said too Thanks Ruth L in C |
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06 Nov 09 - 09:19 AM (#2760804) Subject: RE: England My England From: Dave the Gnome The Far Left despise the Royals I am far from far left and I do as well. The 'Royals' epiomise the class system that caused the slavery of the ordinary working person in the first place. Joe Stalin and co. proved that you cannot replace one class system with another either. Until people understand that the real enemies are the ones who wield the real power nothing will ever change. They feed us the fuel for these petty squables through their media in the hope that we will not notice the real injustice and carry on laughing all the way to the bank. The real England is not that of Willberforce or Churchill or any politician. It is that of Ranjid that runs the corner shop, Fred who buys his sandwich there on the way to work, Natasha who bakes the bread and Ingrid who drives the bus. It does not matter one jot whether they like cricket, morris dancing, steel bands or curry on their roast beef. DeG |
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06 Nov 09 - 09:34 AM (#2760807) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton dave, Dave write the song! It will be exlnt Les |
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06 Nov 09 - 09:43 AM (#2760823) Subject: RE: England My England From: Mr Happy So much evidence here that reinforces the concept of non-nationality. Like, which version of England are we to discuss? .........& for that matter, which variations of 'Britishness', Irish, Scot, Welsh? IMO nationality & countries are contrivances invented by the rich & powerful to further control & keep us under their thumb |
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06 Nov 09 - 09:50 AM (#2760828) Subject: RE: England My England From: Jack Blandiver http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqoTNVwhrAg O'er grassy dale, and lowland scene Come see, come hear, the English Scheme. The lower-class, want brass, bad chests, scrounge fags. The clever ones tend to emigrate Like your psychotic big brother, who left home For jobs in Holland, Munich, Rome He's thick but he struck it rich, switch The commune crap, camp bop, middle-class, flip-flop Guess that's why they end up in bands He's the green piece in us all He's the creep-creep in us all Condescends to black men Very nice to them They talk of Chile while driving through Haslingden You got sixty hour weeks, and stone stone toilet back-gardens Peter Cook's jokes, bad dope, check shirts, lousy groups Point their fingers at America Down pokey quaint streets in Cambridge Cycles our distant spastic heritage Its a gay red, roundhead, army career, grim head If we was smart we'd emigrate |
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06 Nov 09 - 09:52 AM (#2760830) Subject: RE: England My England From: Lizzie Cornish 1 "The real England is not that of Willberforce or Churchill or any politician. It is that of Ranjid that runs the corner shop, Fred who buys his sandwich there on the way to work, Natasha who bakes the bread and Ingrid who drives the bus. It does not matter one jot whether they like cricket, morris dancing, steel bands or curry on their roast beef." Actually, it's ALL of those things, Dave. You cannot deny the past and both Winston Churchill and William Wilberforce are both a huge part of that. How the heck can you say that Churchill is NOT part of England? |
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06 Nov 09 - 11:02 AM (#2760878) Subject: RE: England My England From: Keith A of Hertford Mr.Happy, "IMO nationality & countries are contrivances invented by the rich & powerful to further control & keep us under their thumb " Surely nations grew out of tribal groupings that date back at least to the bronze age. Someone has already mentioned the Land Of The Angles. You said you enjoy the Behan song, and posted all the lyrics. You forgot to tell us what you enjoy about it, and how it is relevant here. While I have your attention, may I remind you that you said on this forum that you had proof that I am a liar and a racist. Will you now post that proof on this forum, or withdraw that gross personal attack? |
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06 Nov 09 - 11:03 AM (#2760881) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton "England or Britain" or some such thing, like many European countries went off around the globe taking over places and removing much wealth. This was bad and many of those places are still suffering from the consequences. None of us a responsible for any of this and although we sill benefit from the advantage gained the original sin was not mine or our generation's. So proud (?) of some things and not others? L in C |
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06 Nov 09 - 11:37 AM (#2760894) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton Once we all lived in Africa then we spread out and have been doing so for around 200,000 years. Hardly a place on the planet does not have people from other places. The idea of people in one place going back to the bronze isn't much true. Is Italy a country and a nation? Lots of people in the north are keen to cut themselves off from the people in the south. Could it be because they have a lot more wealth? I will ask the question again: "England or Britain" or some such thing, like many European countries went off around the globe taking over places and removing much wealth. This was bad and many of those places are still suffering from the consequences. None of us a responsible for any of this and although we sill benefit from the advantage gained the original sin was not mine or our generation's. So proud (?) of some things and not others? L in C |
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06 Nov 09 - 11:37 AM (#2760896) Subject: RE: England My England From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Geez, why are you so stuck in only the bad part of our history, Les? What of the good things about England? Or do you deliberately choose not to go there? |
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06 Nov 09 - 11:58 AM (#2760906) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton Well Lizzie, as I have failed to explain I don't really know what being proud of England is. I guess that's my problem. Looking back on what English people have done, ie culture in it's widest sense, some of looks good, some bad and some just history. If you are proud of some stuff and ashamed (?) of other stuff what does that add up to? No? I don't know either. I have sung old songs, danced Morris, been in mummers plays, ran clubs and groups and all that other stuff and enjoyed it. So people did it a long time ago - just like all the bad stuff. Are you cherry picking the bits you like and simply avoiding all the bits you don't? Ok fine but that is why we keep going on. And more importantly Suibhne O'Piobaireachd Brilliant as ever Les |
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06 Nov 09 - 12:03 PM (#2760910) Subject: RE: England My England From: Keith A of Hertford Where evil has been done, decent Britons have changed it, e.g. slavery, colonial exploitation. Also, our colonial influence was not all bad. As I said, tyranny and intolerance has been overcome here, and without needing invaders to come and sort things out for us. |
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06 Nov 09 - 12:18 PM (#2760921) Subject: RE: England My England From: Lizzie Cornish 1 "When you were rhapsodising over village greens, cricket and spitfires, I told you that this chocolate box vision was somewhat undermined by the realities of the past: rural poverty, enclosure, childhood disease and death, and the many iniquities of the class system.... "<<<<<< No, you told me that my words about England, which were in fact my actual memories too, did not exist, expect on biscuit tins. I have since assured you, many times over, that they actually EXISTED and still do, in many parts of this country. Just a few weeks ago in Torquay they were all out playing cricket on the green there, with the church spire in the background and the sea to the front. It exists. It has always existed. It is PART of English culture, both past and present....and future. What you **actually** said was this.....and I have taken this from a PM you sent me a while back: "...What I actually said, after a long, misty-eyed bout of whimsy from you about spitfires and cricket and church bells and village greens, was (and this was a thought that has since been echoed by many of your countrymen) the England you were trying to conjure up was a sentimental image that ony existed on biscuit tins and Hovis adverts, and it did not take into account the real, multicultural society that we live in...." "...You responded (and this is the important bit) that I would have to have "England running through every part of me" to be able truly understand your vision. The implication being that, as I was not born here, I could never properly understand or appreciate England in the way that you could...." You took that to imply what you wanted it to. And I told you that if I had gone to live in America, then I would still never know that country as well as you, still never have the memories you have because you have half a lifetime's more memories of America than I do and always will. I would never dream of telling anyone that their actual memories did not exist, apart from on biscuit tins. (!!) I have SAT on village greens, heard the sound of leather against willow..whilst the bells rang out the hours...and it is a vision I love. I have never seen the Notting Hill Carnival, apart from on the news, because I have never lived in Notting Hill. It looks great fun in some parts and a bit dodgy in others when things get a little out of hand. I have seen the Glastonbury/Bridgwater Carnival of Lights, though, because I used to live down the road..but that ain't on Albion Heart either. And things can get out of hand in Glastonbury too sometimes. "And the fact is that the real, living breathing England of 2009 has, for the majority of people, regardless of culture or origin, a lot more to do with urban culture and diversity than the treacly, whimsical nonsense you were espousing at the time. You would not accept this." I still don't accept it. England is not 'urban culture'...it is a huge variety of cities, towns, villages, countryside, beaches, coastline, lakes...Urban culture is not and never has been a part of my life, because I have never lived in a city. And that is a hanging offence????????? I identify far more with cows, sheep and tors, than I do with urban culture and clubbing....Yeesh! "You also went on to launch one of your nasty, hysterical attacks on my culture." In what way? Was it baseball caps? Gawd...I hate baseball caps, always have done, always will do. Terrible invention! I also dislike Corporate America, but then I loathe Corporate Britain too. I seem to recall saying that if I had launched the 'America No Thanks' campaign, instead of Ian Anderson, then I'd have been called a racist, but because Ian did it, it was seemingly OK. "That's whay I called you a racist." Then you were wrong, weren't you. "I think the things you said at that time were at the very least xenophobic, at worst racist. I find the Daily Mail, red-top politics you continue to espouse deplorable. I didn't apologise then and I don't now. " I would not accept your apology, after reading what you put about me on Facebook, so that truly is of no importance to me. As I recall you inferred my father was a facist, simply because he used to read the Daily Mail. Whoa!!! The fact that Dad went to war er...AGAINST facists obviously completely went over your head then????? I'm puzzled about the Daily Mail Leftie Hysteria, it has always puzzled me. It's the top selling paper in the country, it launches blistering attacks on the BNP, it often has very intelligent pieces in it which are anything but racist....so that must mean that most people in this country are er...racist then? Of course it bloomin' doesn't. The Daily Mail phobia within the Left is bizarre. I've always found it bizarre and always will. I'm not an Extremist of Left or Right, I support no particular party, because let's face it, they're all crappily corrupted....but I love my country and I have true and beautiful memories of it, some of which come only from yesterday, not purely decades ago. I find The Sun far more worrying, and The Mirror, with their dumbed down words and nude women plastered everywhere, coarseness and vulgarity on almost every page. What is it with Newspaperism in the folk world in England. WHY do you judge people on the papers they read? It's so weird! I don't care about the colour of anyone's skin, nor their religion or background. I don't see people as 'class' but as people, pure and simple...yet I am a racist xenophobe facist. Cool, huh? I do judge people though, but only on their souls.... |
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06 Nov 09 - 12:20 PM (#2760924) Subject: RE: England My England From: Lizzie Cornish 1 "Where evil has been done, decent Britons have changed it, e.g. slavery, colonial exploitation. Also, our colonial influence was not all bad. As I said, tyranny and intolerance has been overcome here, and without needing invaders to come and sort things out for us." Excellently put, Keith and I couldn't agree more. |
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06 Nov 09 - 12:27 PM (#2760929) Subject: RE: England My England From: Lizzie Cornish 1 yet I am a racist xenophobe facist.>>> yet I am a racist xenophobe facist?????? Left the ??? out there... Also, let's deal with the Spitfires memory of mine, shall we? When I worked in Harley St. as I've said before, Douglas Bader was a patient of the Cardiologist I worked for. He was an incredible man, one to whom we owe a huge debt. Dr. Spurrell, his Cardiologist, had modelled his life on Bader's courage, after having seen 'Reach for the Sky' at the cinema when he was a young boy. He grew up to fly Spitfires. Ended up buying one with some pals of his and they spent many happy hours stripping it all down and re-bulding it. So yes, I'm afraid that Spitfires also are in my memory bank..and of course, my dear Dad was an RAF Navigator too. In short, don't tell me what I can and can't think about my country or the memories that flow through every part of me. Thank you. |
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06 Nov 09 - 12:29 PM (#2760930) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton The Daily Mail is a bad and evil thing. "Also, our colonial influence was not all bad. " True but in getting to some kind of understanding do you see it is about 50/50? Going to other places, taking over countries and shipping lots of stuff back. And we didn't even leave them Morris dancing - we left them Cricket. L in C |
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06 Nov 09 - 12:30 PM (#2760931) Subject: RE: England My England From: Dave the Gnome How the heck can you say that Churchill is NOT part of England? Where did I say that Churchill was not part of England, Lizzie? Just reading into my words what you want to see, much like the tabloids you quote do with thier news stories. Look back, read again and try to comprehend what I am actualy saying. If not at least quote me verbatim rather than quoting your own interpretation. I think you will find what I actualy said distincly different to your slant on it. But before we get hung up on the niceties let's remember the point of the thread. It was asking for information on the song. It has long since been established that it was written and distributed by persons of dubious intent. Apart from which it is a particularly bad example of teh songsmoths talent! Cheers DeG |
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06 Nov 09 - 12:32 PM (#2760933) Subject: RE: England My England From: Dave the Gnome Just as my last post is a particulary bad example of the spilling chuckers art... :D |
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06 Nov 09 - 12:37 PM (#2760939) Subject: RE: England My England From: Jack Blandiver As I said, tyranny and intolerance has been overcome here, Tyranny and Intolerance are what England is founded on and continue to be its abiding attributes today. And still they sing: The rich man in his castle, The poor man at his gate, He made them high and lowly; He ordered their estate! |
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06 Nov 09 - 12:38 PM (#2760943) Subject: RE: England My England From: Lizzie Cornish 1 "Where did I say that Churchill was not part of England, Lizzie? Just reading into my words what you want to see, much like the tabloids you quote do with thier news stories." er...here? "The real England is not that of Willberforce or Churchill or any politician. It is that of Ranjid that runs the corner shop, Fred who buys his sandwich there on the way to work, Natasha who bakes the bread and Ingrid who drives the bus. It does not matter one jot whether they like cricket, morris dancing, steel bands or curry on their roast beef.<<<<<< Wilberforce and Churchill are as MUCH a part of REAL England as Ranjid, Fred, Natasha and Ingrid. |
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06 Nov 09 - 12:43 PM (#2760948) Subject: RE: England My England From: Lizzie Cornish 1 "Tyranny and Intolerance are what England is founded on and continue to be its abiding attributes today. And still they sing:" Just yesterday 5 of our soldiers were murdered. They were murdered trying to bring peace in Afghanistan. They were murdered by an Afghan policeman out of his brain on drugs. He was supposed to be their friend. They were doing this job knowing that at any moment something like this could happen. They were doing this job because they are trying to bring some kind of sense to a crazy country that is out of control. They were doing this in an effort to help the Afghan people live a far,far better life, with a properly trained police force. England is also founded on immense bravery, because we go in where others fear to tread. Our soldiers are incredibly brave... We have brought peace to many places...and I am fair sick to death of having my country run down by prats who chooose to harp on about the Leftie view of England. Tell you what, if you don't like this country, then b*gger off somewhere else. |
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06 Nov 09 - 12:44 PM (#2760951) Subject: RE: England My England From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) I'm still perplexed as to how anyone could imagine that "their" England had been "taken away from them"? It's all sitting here quite happily, minding it's own business, being whatever it is.. Freely and abundantly available to anyone who wants to indulge in it, as much as they could possibly want. If they can actually be arsed of course, which unfortunately I suspect an awful lot of supposed 'nationalists' *can't*. Because if you want to invest just a little energy there's whole a public library of classic English literature, drama and poetry to immerse oneself in, there's miles upon miles of footpaths through the beautiful English countryside to ramble through, there are traditional English pubs galore to sit beside a roaring log fire with your mates if you want to, there are old English puds to steam if you want to don an apron, there's even a revival in Raves if you're interested in visiting Essex (youthful anarchy being one of the more endearing aspects of traditional English culture to me, but probably not to most). Whatever, this country is simply brimming over with Englishness for anyone who wants to open their eyes or lift a finger to be a part of it. It's a flowing river teaming with weeds and fishy's, not a dessicated museum piece. So instead of fantasising about it's demise, why not be a part of it's continued ongoing manifestation - just like so many of the appreciators of, and active participants in it *are doing* right now - from wherever they may originate - such as for example (amongst others) Ruth Archer & indeed my friend Virginia Tam.. |
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06 Nov 09 - 12:47 PM (#2760953) Subject: RE: England My England From: richd Threads such as this give a wonderful glimpse into some strange worlds - and make me so happy not to be English! |
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06 Nov 09 - 12:47 PM (#2760954) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton The Slave Triangle that connected Africa, America and England has had a much greater effect on so much. An it's effects continue. Are you proud of that? No of course not - not for a second am I suggesting you even might be Lizzie. You are picking and choosing what to be proud of. OK do it. But how is that being proud of England? L in C |
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06 Nov 09 - 12:48 PM (#2760955) Subject: RE: England My England From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Kate Bush.... Kate Bush "Oh! England, my Lionheart, I'm in your garden, fading fast in your arms. The soldiers soften, the war is over. The air raid shelters are blooming clover. Flapping umbrellas fill the lanes-- My London Bridge in rain again. Oh! England, my Lionheart! Peter Pan steals the kids in Kensington Park. You read me Shakespeare on the rolling Thames-- That old river poet that never, ever ends. Our thumping hearts hold the ravens in, And keep the tower from tumbling. Oh! England, my Lionheart, Oh! England, my Lionheart, Oh! England, my Lionheart, I don't want to go. Oh! England, my Lionheart! Dropped from my black Spitfire to my funeral barge. Give me one kiss in apple-blossom. Give me one wish, and I'd be wassailing In the orchard, my English rose, Or with my shepherd, who'll bring me home. Oh! England, my Lionheart, Oh! England, my Lionheart, Oh! England, my Lionheart, I don't want to go. Oh! England, my Lionheart, Oh! England, my Lionheart, Oh! England, my Lionheart, I don't want to go. " |
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06 Nov 09 - 12:52 PM (#2760959) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton The Slave Triangle that connected Africa, America and England has had a much greater effect on so much. An it's effects continue. Are you proud of that? No of course not - not for a second am I suggesting you even might be Lizzie. You are picking and choosing what to be proud of. OK do it. But how is that being proud of England? L in C |
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06 Nov 09 - 01:01 PM (#2760966) Subject: RE: England My England From: The Borchester Echo lizziecornish ssaid: I have never lived in a city Yes you have. You were born and brought up in Pinner, the epitome of Betjeman's Metroland, then you worked at a central London hospital, or so you've told us all often enough. More recently you have trekked around a succession of faded Victorian English seaside towns. A million miles away from the harsh realities of rural life for real people. Ruth really does live in an English village and is thus presumably aware of the struggles for survival of agricultural workers. I come from a tiny hamlet where my grandfather was the first farmer there to get a tractor after the end of WW2. He had three fields, spread out at some distance from each other, and toiled hard on them and could not afford to employ labour. They lived in a stone-built, 17th century cottage, ever so chocolate box-looking from the outside but cold and draughty with a pump the sole source of water. Today that tiny village has no shop, indeed no community facilities at all. The cottages are tarted up to estate agent brochure standards yet the place is entirely still and empty except at weekends. All the younger people are in the towns, living "urban culture and clubbing". "English country life" was always tough except for the gentry in the big halls. It really wasn't (and isn't) like Mabel Lucy Attwell, Enid Blyton or an episode of The Archers. Mind you, even that had a gang of racist thugs mugging the local Asian solicitor. And the local cricketers play 20/20. Get real and get out of Albion Fartland. |
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06 Nov 09 - 01:07 PM (#2760974) Subject: RE: England My England From: Lizzie Cornish 1 "The Slave Triangle that connected Africa, America and England has had a much greater effect on so much. An it's effects continue. Are you proud of that? No of course not - not for a second am I suggesting you even might be Lizzie. You are picking and choosing what to be proud of. OK do it. But how is that being proud of England?" Oh come ON, Les. Wilberforce gave most of his life to stop the Slave Trade..and it wasn't just the trade here he stopped, but elsewhere too. I'm damned proud of him for a start. There are so many things to be proud of...Yes, of course there are bad things too, there always are, in all countries, but NO other country beats itself up as this one does...and the Slave Trade is a perfect example of that. Over and again it's brought up. Why? We all know it happened. Some of us also know that it was an Englishman who STOPPED it too, sadly not enough know that though, because hey, that would mean that 'they' would have to put some good stuff down about Englishmen, and gawd...we can't have that now, can we. I'm proud of these folks....they're absolutely bloody marvellous! The Imagined Village But I'm also proud of this man....and if you've not seen this film, ten see it, because it's wonderful! Amazing Grace And if you cannot see the connection between The Imagined Village and William Wilberforce, Les....then I despair. The Americans have taken Wilberforce far more to their hearts than we have....and William is now inspiring a whole new generation of young people to fight slavery in this modern world.... But even though I despair that William's own country has seemingly chosen to ignore him, never putting his name beside the cries of 'We have the Slave Trade to beat ourselves up for!' I am deeply proud that he was English... The Amazing Change |
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06 Nov 09 - 01:16 PM (#2760979) Subject: RE: England My England From: Lizzie Cornish 1 "Yes you have. You were born and brought up in Pinner, the epitome of Betjeman's Metroland, then you worked at a central London hospital, or so you've told us all often enough. More recently you have trekked around a succession of faded Victorian English seaside towns. A million miles away from the harsh realities of rural life for real people." Pinner, for your information, Diane...was known as Pinner Village....and I can remember when it was covered with more fields than houses. It was not 'urban culture'. I worked in Harley St, then er...I went home to Pinner. I never lived in London, nor partied there. I have lived in a tiny village in Somerset, with only one shop, in which I worked...and a slightly larger village on Dartmoor....where I watched the few shops closing down, year by year, spoke to the farmers, watched the sheep being driven over the bridge of an evening...so I can assure you that I too know all about village life, and country life, which is why I used to rant on about Show of Hands 'Country Life' so much....a song which you used to moan about and put down, as I recall, and yet, here you are now moaning about shops closing down....well well well... The faded Victorian seaside towns have poverty running through them in many cases. Again, look up your Show of Hands CDs and you'll find songs about them. No jobs, no good transport links...stuck in the middle of the countryside, albeit on the coast side...life is hard. Was Sidmouth filled with 'erban kultcha' then? Did I miss something? Did you know something about Carina's that I didn't? Yeesh! |
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06 Nov 09 - 01:38 PM (#2760994) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton Clearly Wilberforce was a good man. But what about all the English (yes and others) people who created the Slave Trade. I chose but it was immensely evil. are your proud of them? No I feel sure you are not - you are picking and choosing L in C |
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06 Nov 09 - 02:47 PM (#2761043) Subject: RE: England My England From: Spleen Cringe Tell you what, if you don't like this country, then b*gger off somewhere else I was kinda waiting for someone to say this. Says something about the limits of English tolerance, donchathink? At least it lets me advertise one of my favourite (English) websites: ifyoulikeitsomuchwhydontyougolivethere.com |
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06 Nov 09 - 03:21 PM (#2761062) Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion It seems a reasonable suggestion to me — there are plenty of other places if it's so intolerable to stay here racked with vicarious guilt for the iniquities of some of your ancestors. You say Lizzie is picking & choosing — so are all of you who insist on picking & choosing, e.g., the slavers over Wilberforce. I am reminded of the Lord High Executioner's 'little list' in W S Gilbert's The Mikado, of 'society offenders who'd be bettr underground, and never would be missed'; which included "The idiot who praises with enthusiastic tone All centuries but this and every country but his own". |
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06 Nov 09 - 03:34 PM (#2761074) Subject: RE: England My England From: Spleen Cringe Seems to me that there is an attempt to make an argument that unless you uncritically accept all aspects of English culture and English history wholesale - including the dodgy bits - you should somehow belong elsewhere. Personally I'd say that was a crock. My England is the country of the Peasants Revolt, the English Revolution, the Tolpuddle Martyrs, the struggle for universal suffrage and so on - not the England of Empire, child labour, enclosure, feudalism, royalty and so on. I celebrate our long held tradition of dissent and radicalism. Yes, I'm picking and choosing, but I'm also saying that just because I chose to celebrate a different aspect of English culture and history to some posters here, it doesn't follow I want to live abroad. MtheGM is missing the point by a few hundred miles... |
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06 Nov 09 - 03:39 PM (#2761077) Subject: RE: England My England From: The Borchester Echo Lizzie is picking & choosing Always has done, lacking as she does the faintest notion of context. She picks a word here and a word there and weaves them into an absurd parody of Linda Lee-Potter, entirely unrelated to points already presented. Comparison with The Mikado is apt though. Not Nanky Poo but the Three Little Maids who skipped school. |
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06 Nov 09 - 03:52 PM (#2761081) Subject: RE: England My England From: Dave the Gnome Sorry Lizzie, I guess that because I "do not have England running through every part of me", my blood being far to diluted by Russian, Polish and Welsh ancestry I will never understand or be able to explain to anyone who is English, through and through, what I am trying to get across. My fault for thinking otherwise. But if you cannot, or willfully will not, see the the world of difference between The real England is not that of Willberforce or Churchill or any politician and "Churcill is not PART of England" then I cannot see the point of continuing the conversation at all. Considering that it has nothing to do with the question asked in the opening post it is no great loss. Better all round if we stick to our own parts of England, be they past, present or future. DeG |
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06 Nov 09 - 03:54 PM (#2761082) Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion It wasn't Nanky Poo, Diane; it was Ko-Ko. And the Little Maids hadn't skipped school; they had grown up and left, "Freed from a genius tutelary"... I was being a wee bit tongue in cheek, I admit, Nigel — just felt like getting that Gilbert quote in as having at least some relevance, in that the tone of you absolute all-out denunciators does occasionally verge on Gilbert's 'idiots' in the song. But I do take your point in general — tho I don't agree with all the things you choose to denounce: neither Empire nor Royalty, it seems to me, has always been the sort of unmitigated disaster you appear to rubricate. Michael |
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06 Nov 09 - 03:55 PM (#2761083) Subject: RE: England My England From: Paul Davenport Sorry Les, but as a native of Hull, brought up on Wilberforce from a tender age you need to understand this simple but horrifying fact. When Wilberforce proposed his Bill for Abolition of the Slave trade there were 10,000 people per year being traded as slaves off the coast of West Africa. Today there are 100, 000 per year (mostly children). Don't blame the English for that. By the way we abolished Slavery by Bill of Parliament, the Americans had to fight a staggeringly bloody Civil War which still did not achieve that end. Brazil banned slavery as late as the 1880s but I don't hear you slagging them off. I really don't give a toss about peoples stance on their country or nationality but I'm heartily sick of living in a society where extreme views on anything from a neurotic minority force the majority of decent people into a corner. We objected to Apartheid in South Africa but suddenly we have fear of terrorists, paedophiles, alcohol abusers, benefit fraudsters and any other minority you can think of, ruling our lives and forcing legislation upon us which does nothing to protect but everything to inhibit freedom and strangle the healthy growth of culture and tradition. Why aren't you all objecting to that? |
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06 Nov 09 - 04:04 PM (#2761090) Subject: RE: England My England From: Dave the Gnome Irrelevent, Paul. All Les and many others, myself included, are saying is that Wilberforce, Morris Dancing and tea on the village green are not the full picture. Neither are the "evil mill owners". Neither are the "terrorists, paedophiles, alcohol abusers, benefit fraudsters and any other minority you can think of". The song is a trite and particularly poorly thought out bit of jingoism. The England it portrays does not and never has existed. The whole point is there are many, many exceptionaly good things but there are also, as you are pointing out, many bad things as well. On the whole I think the balance is in favour of the good. And many people do object to the things you mention. But not on this thread. Why should they? DeG |
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06 Nov 09 - 04:07 PM (#2761093) Subject: RE: England My England From: Spleen Cringe "Why aren't you all objecting to that?" Because that would be thread drift... |
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06 Nov 09 - 04:17 PM (#2761101) Subject: RE: England My England From: The Borchester Echo You surely don't expect me to be arsed to check exactly who played what in a crappy d'Oyly Carte production that tried to satirise English politics by setting it in Japan, do you? That really is dragging it down to Devon AmDram level. The entire point is that while lizziecornish (in common with the drippy maids) did allegedly (though there's little evidence of it) attend school, she is of the opinion that no-one else should. Indeed, the English state school system is one of the main targets of her ranting. |
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06 Nov 09 - 04:53 PM (#2761120) Subject: RE: England My England From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Has anybody here considered stopping licking the dessicated arses of the deceased and like err getting on with the business of doing and making stuff? ..Which might incidentally end up being a bit English or sumthimg. Oh, thought not. Me neither, what a bummer.. x |
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06 Nov 09 - 05:18 PM (#2761139) Subject: RE: England My England From: Paul Davenport DeG, ok your point is taken. If the thread had maintained a dispassionate focus on the original posting that would be fine. It didn't. Drift towards a leftist condemnation of anything not similarly leftist actually proved the point of the writer of the poem/song. I think the proclamation that a given view of England never existed is equally ill-informed. History is a set of opinions. We were not there so we simply don't know. To pronounce that one view or another is inaccurate is inappropriate. My experience of living in this country since 1950 is coloured by the fact that I had effective caring parents and grandparents. It was an English idyll. The fact that this was not my grand-parents experience, nor that of my parents does not alter my own, truthful perception of my environment of circumstances. |
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06 Nov 09 - 05:36 PM (#2761152) Subject: RE: England My England From: Dave Roberts Tug The Cox had it right, back on Oct. 15th. To be 'proud' of being born English, when one never had any choice in the matter, is silly. As far as the substance and style of the piece goes, I'm with Greg Stephens. |
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06 Nov 09 - 05:51 PM (#2761161) Subject: RE: England My England From: Dave the Gnome I have only been here three years less, Paul. My parents were both very caring as were my Granparents who were, however, 1 Russian, 1 Polish, 1 English and 1 Welsh and my perceptions are equaly coloured. You have it right when you say History is a set of opinions. We were not there so we simply don't know. but go on to say To pronounce that one view or another is inaccurate is inappropriate. which sort of contradicts the former. In light of what you say everyones view is coloured by their experience and therefore inaccurate to anyone but themselves, surely. In light of the discussion it is neither inaccurate nor inappropriate to say the views, and even the 'facts' (GB Shaw is English!), quoted in the song are inaccurate by any standards. Which, hopefuly, brings us back on track to views, coloured or otherwise, of the song:-) I believe it is trite and misleading jingoism. Others believe it to be not so. So be it. Let the debate continue! Cheers DeG |
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06 Nov 09 - 10:22 PM (#2761285) Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion 'You surely don't expect me to be arsed to check exactly who played what in a crappy d'Oyly Carte production that tried to satirise English politics by setting it in Japan, do you?' Not a matter of what I expect, Diane; but what you should: accuracy will enhance your point; inaccuracy undermine it. You thought you could rejoin by showing your knowledge of the work in question (never mind how 'crappy' you might consider it) was equal to mine; you demonstrated the opposite - and then tried to make a virtue of getting it wrong by turning defensively aggressive when this was pointed out. Bound to convince everyone of the rightness of your position — not. |
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07 Nov 09 - 01:56 AM (#2761309) Subject: RE: England My England From: The Borchester Echo The thread is about what's wrong with England, not idotic amdram (though this may well have been a feature of life in boring suburban Pinner which madlizziecornish insists is "not in London" despite being on the tube. The OP cited a pile of xenophobic, inaccurate drivel. MLC dragged up (as usual) some unintentionally borderline racist lyrics from her once-fave pub-rock band. All stuff that illustrates supremely what is wrong with an unthinking, prejudiced, Daily Mail-driven populace. The way back for England isn't to gaze dreamily at chocolate box lids and yearn for what never was and rant garbage about "in my day". England has changed irrevocably, in many ways for the better. There is room enough to recall and emulate the massive struggles of the past for progressive land reform and emancipation. And for education (yes x 3). All this can be, and is, reflected in the range of music out there from musicians such as the aforementioned Billy Bragg and look! A new English Acoustic Collective newsletter has just arrived in my inbox . . . |
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07 Nov 09 - 02:14 AM (#2761311) Subject: RE: England My England From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish, still too tired to log in.. If those concerned had bothered to look at the Amazing Change link I posted above...they'd have seen that slavery is now more abundant than ever...as Paul has so eloquently pointed out above. The Amazing Change grew out of the thoughs and beliefs of William Wilberforce, who is now inspiring a whole new generation of young people to make a difference. We should be proud that William was English...and his name should be mentioned right alongside slavery, at each and every opportunity, to show that far from being a land of tyrannical oppressors, as the far left would have people believe, we are a land of brave souls too, many of whom will stand up in the face of terrible adversity to fight for what is right..giving their whole lives to that cause. It still goes on today... My country is NOT bad...and I deeply object to those who try to portray it as such. Diane, Pinner is in Middlesex, or used to be, unless they've changed the goal posts. It did NOT come under London..nor was it a heaving blob of 'erbun kultcha'....I lived there from babyhood to adulthood, so if you don't mind, I know it one helluva lot better than you do. Dave, I've Spanish blood in me, even having 'de Torres' in my name. So what? It is England that flows through me. It is England that is my home. It is England that I love. It is England that I am proud of. I remember watching Churchill's funeral, so I'm sorry, but he too is very much a part of my England. We each have our own England I guess, but mine is not just stuck in the present, it incorporates the past right alongside the present and the future...and I will not have anyone tell me that Today's England is nothing to do with Yesterday's England, because it has EVERYTHING to do with it. There are many things in the past that we have let go, many precious things, and it is to our detriment. Those things can be brought back again. I have always believed that you should carry the best from the past into the present, and protect them, carry them forward for the future. I will not let the Extreme Left bully me into their way of thinking, their vision of England. England belongs to us all, of all faiths, all colours, all backgrounds. |
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07 Nov 09 - 02:23 AM (#2761313) Subject: RE: England My England From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish "The way back for England isn't to gaze dreamily at chocolate box lids and yearn for what never was and rant garbage about "in my day". England has changed irrevocably, in many ways for the better." But...it DID exist, Diane. I know, I was IN it. I was there...as were millions of us...and this attitude of denial has, imo, fed the BNP masses of voters. It will continue to send people over to the BNP too, and that is a terrible danger. Stop denying the good, wonderful, beautiful, incredible, heart-soaring things about our past, because this constant moan of 'it was never like that, we were a Land of Bullies' has had the most terrible effect on this country, and is now giving rise to a terrible anger. That anger is being sent down the wrong paths. You know it. I know it. So *why* do you insist in carrying it on? Do you WANT people to walk down the BNP path???????? The BNP have seized upon this 'Do NOT be proud to be English because we're all Oppressors' shit, and they have spun it to their own advantage. It makes me so bloody mad...and so bloody sad. And yet, you talk to ME of education???????? You cannot see even the most obvious thing, when it is staring you in the face! The Extreme Left have handed voters to the Extreme Right. And that is something you are proud of?????? Go get Educated, Honey. |
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07 Nov 09 - 02:53 AM (#2761317) Subject: RE: England My England From: Dave the Gnome As the thread has wandered so far from the point I suppose it doesn't matter anymore so... What about the price of fish nowadays? 2 sea bass fillets, £12.95! Sheesh. Bloody French and Spanish have a lot to answer for, John and Edward instead of Rachel? Oh, come on! And they still haven't done anything with the Lancastrian Hall in Swinton. Closed for 5 years now and a waste of space. Isn't it about time they either pulled it down or used it for something else? There must be other things on people's minds. Looks like this is the thread to air them all... :D (eG) |
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07 Nov 09 - 03:02 AM (#2761319) Subject: RE: England My England From: The Borchester Echo What bit of "England has changed irrevocably, in many ways for the better" don't you get? It's better because it's multicultural and in some areas of economic and social thinking, more liberal. This is in direct conflict with what BNP policies (such as they are) project. What bollocks to proclaim that they don't want the English to be oppressors. That is exactly what they want and declare it (not quite so openly these days) to be so. In the 70s I reported on National Front (forerunnner to the BNP) public order trials and wrote features on open police harassment of ethnic minorities. This has now improved (marginally) for the better. In the early 80s I worked on the Outer West London Women's Employment Project, a GLC initiative (under Ken Livingstone). Harrow, in which the urban district of Pinner is situated, was one of those Outer West London boroughs. Pity you didn't come along and get politically, socially and economically educated. Were you warbling trashy G&S instead? |
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07 Nov 09 - 03:38 AM (#2761326) Subject: RE: England My England From: GUEST,Lizziei Cornish "What bollocks to proclaim that they don't want the English to be oppressors..." I proclaimed NO such thing, Diane...and well you know it, so stop twisting my words for your own agenda. I said this: >>>Do you WANT people to walk down the BNP path???????? The BNP have seized upon this 'Do NOT be proud to be English because we're all Oppressors' shit, and they have spun it to their own advantage. It makes me so bloody mad...and so bloody sad.<<< They have taken the anger caused by the Left saying the English ARE and always have been Oppressors....and using it to gain votes. Also, Pinner was in the COUNTY of Middlesex, when I was growing up. Not a clue where they've moved it to now....but I was a Middlesex lass throughout my 27 years there. But you can try to tell folks I grew up in London, if it turns you on. The Chocolate Box existed...it still exists. England is in some ways better...and in many ways worse. It is worse because we have so many who don't even know their roots any longer, because their history has been denied them, apart from the bad bits, which have been layered on them with a trowel. |
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07 Nov 09 - 04:17 AM (#2761343) Subject: RE: England My England From: Paul Davenport Actually Lizzie, I admire your anger but something made me pause the other day and it was a voice that said, 'Penny for the Guy?'. I turned and noticed a lone Asian youth with his hand out. Later that day I had a similar experience but the young man was black. Now this is interesting because throughout the lead up to Nov 5th I had no such encounter with what has been termed (idiotically) the 'indigenous English'. The point I'm trying to make is that here was one of your English traditions being kept alive by members of the minorities. I found it refreshing (I'm not a great fan of Guy Fawkes night by the way - he was a fellow Yorkshireman who wanted to blow up the government:-) that the so called multi-cultural society was working in favour of Englishness. In my day to day life I live and work in a place where multi-culturalsm is non-existent and where the young people are voting for the BNP. I deplore it but you are right - they do so because they are completely ignorant of what it means to be English - fairness, defender of the right to say what you think (even if others don't agree), tolerance, kindness to strangers etc. I meet and speak to over 450 young people every week and they do not know about Wilberforce, they do not even understand (in many cases) why we have Rememberance Day in November (my school allows poppies but thats as far as it goes). Most of these youngsters do not know where their roots lie and, as stated above they reach 18 and vote for BNP in increasing numbers. |
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07 Nov 09 - 04:32 AM (#2761359) Subject: RE: England My England From: Jack Blandiver England is founded on class-division, oppression, subjugation and exploitation; our culture is built on the tortured backs of the rural & urban working-class and this continues to be the case today. The other day in Liverpool we took shelter from the downpour in St Georges Hall, this noble edifice of a particularly English take on Classicism wherein the sumptuous banqueting hall is built over the prison cells below; a testimony to the pre-requisites of mass squalor, poverty, crime and human depravity which is truly England's Glory. This is the country I was born into and I am under no illusions about our Heritage, nor of the evil represented by the pictures on The Chocolate Box, much less the tooth-rotting folksie twee faux-pourri Country House / Cathedral horrors it contains by way of marketing a myth however so comforting that myth might be. Personally, I've always preferred Jonathan Meades to Alan Titchmarch anyway. Otherwise... I see in the advert box opposite this thread a DVD of England My England in which Michael Ball plays Henry Purcell and Simon Callow and Lucy Speed play intriguing double roles which contrasts the England of today (or the sixties?) with Purcell's time. Ball is remarkably good as I recall though I haven't seen the film in a while; I taped it on VHS when it first shown on CH4 back in the Purcell Tercentenary year (how long ago that feels!) and I don't think it's been shown again. |
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07 Nov 09 - 04:47 AM (#2761374) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton At last sense |
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07 Nov 09 - 04:58 AM (#2761382) Subject: RE: England My England From: Paul Davenport 'England is founded on class-division, oppression, subjugation and exploitation; our culture is built on the tortured backs of the rural & urban working-class and this continues to be the case today.' Wow! – this is 'sense'? I submit that the above is about as realistic and as accurate as the 'chocolate box' view indicating bias in the opposite direction. |
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07 Nov 09 - 05:20 AM (#2761397) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton Well Paul, I think the key word is founded. The differences between the poorest and the richest in terms of wealth and power are massive. I guess we all celebrate Wilberforce but England, whatever that means, created an Empire based on racism, cruelty and exploitation didn't it. As we keep saying this was not the responsibility of our generation. The main point, if their is one, is that "England" did lots if things some good some bad. What is the point of being proud of the good bits whilst not being ashamed of the bad bits? I cant see the point of either. Best wishes L in C |
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07 Nov 09 - 05:40 AM (#2761399) Subject: RE: England My England From: Jack Blandiver I was born into the industrial heartland of the South-East Northumbrian coal-field in 1961; a landscape of colliery villages, working pits and thriving communities dominated by the iconic chimneys of Blyth Power Station - a cathedral of the modern-age that powered our homes and record players as we played our Can, Faust and Gong albums. For the first 18 years of my life that was my world, my people, my culture, my England - but it's all gone now - no more pits, and no more power station; a landscape that only exists in my dreaming - and a couple of films on YouTube! Blyth Power Station Record Breaker Part 1 (featuring Ewan MacColl???) Backworth Colliery 1974 I submit that the above is about as realistic and as accurate as the 'chocolate box' view indicating bias in the opposite direction. What planet are you on, Paul?? |
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07 Nov 09 - 06:05 AM (#2761409) Subject: RE: England My England From: Tim Leaning If the Theory of the "Eve" Gene is to be believed we are all descended from the same stock out of Africa. |
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07 Nov 09 - 07:31 AM (#2761434) Subject: RE: England My England From: Spleen Cringe Chocolate box villages did and still do exist, but that wasn't/isn't the day-to-day experience of the vast majority of people living in England. I also suspect that when the lid of the chocolate box was lifted, there was more than enough poverty, squalor and so on. Rural poverty, deprivation and exclusion hasn't gone away: Cornwall, for example, has more heroin addiction per head of population than Manchester. Modern day rural poverty is based on numerous factors, but a big part of it must be the rise of agro-business and the industrialisation of farming since the 1950s. SO'P's experience must parallel and reflect that of many people growing up in the industrial heartlands of the North and the Midlands in the 1960s and 70s and seeing the decline of the areas when industry was finally decimated in the 1980s. These sorts of changes, and the wholesale destruction of communities that resulted (along with the parallel destruction of rural communities), had far more of an effect on England than a vague threat from some undefined other who is doing unspeakable things with "our" flag. I don't see what any of this has to do with a mythical "them" that the paranoid tendency amongst the English population believes, with an almost religious intensity, has take England from "us"... as Crowsis rightly says, it's still out there for any of us to discover, enjoy, add to and make of what we will. And as Les says, there's stuff to be proud of and stuff to be ashamed of, so why insist than anyone who isn't indiscriminately proud of all of it is anti-English and has an extreme left agenda (whatever than means in 2009)? I wish these people who insist we have lost something would define "we", tell the rest of us what we've "lost" and make few sensible proposals about how "we" get "it" back... them at least we'd understand what the issue is. In the meantime, vaguely sinister and paranoid songs like the one that this thread opened with smack of fortress Britain, pulling up of drawbridges, Little Englander hostility towards Johnny Foreigner and other unpleasant manifestations of the worse of English... PS, I too am (largely) English, and neither proud nor ashamed. I just am... is this wrong? |
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07 Nov 09 - 08:07 AM (#2761444) Subject: RE: England My England From: Dave the Gnome Yet another ray of common sense from Mr Cringe. Shame about his taste in pullovers:-P Maybe it is a North/South divide thing? Not in the strict sense - I think people either side of the Watford Gap (Mythical Gnomish creation of how the country is divided) are just the same. Maybe, just maybe, the class structure is taking longer to wear down in the Industrial heartlands? I can go in most of my local pubs and get the same message that SC and SO'P are reporting. I went through it myself. From my careers teacher at the age of 15 - "University? Bloody university? I only do factories..." Is it the same sarf of Dudley? Have some people never experienced it or are the rose coloured glasses of a stronger tint in some parts? I dunno. It's all I can think of to explain it! DeG |
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07 Nov 09 - 08:16 AM (#2761450) Subject: RE: England My England From: Spleen Cringe Dave: you're only jealous. Next time I come to Swinton, I'll let you touch the hem for the price of a pint... ;-) |
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07 Nov 09 - 09:58 AM (#2761501) Subject: RE: England My England From: Keith A of Hertford "England, whatever that means, created an Empire based on racism, cruelty and exploitation didn't it. " All nations that could, created empires. The mores of the time did not regard that as bad. The British Empire was less racist, cruel and exploitative than any other. Other empires gained independence through blood and fire. Ours with tea and ceremony. And we are all still friends. Someone has mentioned the Tolpuddle Martyrs and the Peasants Revolt. It was of their like I was thinking when I spoke of our martyrs who knew that only future Britons would benefit from their sacrifices. |
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07 Nov 09 - 01:01 PM (#2761607) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton Well Keith, I don't have the detailed knowledge or the will to comment on the reasonable points you make but: "The British Empire was less racist, cruel and exploitative than any other" Really? A bit less, quite a bit, a lot less? No I don't know either "Other empires gained independence through blood and fire. Ours with tea and ceremony. And we are all still friends." Quite a few places fought to chuck us out. The mess that is Africa was created by European countries. We, and the others, left places behind with no sense of unity, little chance of economic development and. economies often in the hands of trans national companies. What has this got to do with England my England? I don't really know as many of us have been argiung: 1. Lots and lots of stuff happened some good some bad 2. None of it was the fault of our generation 3. Where is the sense in deciding to be proud of some bits and not others? Cheers L in C |
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07 Nov 09 - 01:42 PM (#2761633) Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion 'The mess that is Africa was created by European countries.' Questionable - do you imagine sub-Saharan Africa was some sort of paradisal goodwill utopia pre-colonisation? The fact that it has reverted to something not a million miles from the destructive tribality that existed then is hardly the fault of the colonisers. They got us [British, French, Belgians, Italians] out on the plea that they had learned how to run a modern state so we should leave them to it, so we were damned if we did quit and damned if we didn't. & now, as you say, Africa is a 'mess' again. Created by us? I don't think so. In light of what I have just said - & I defy anyone to challenge its accuracy: & forget rationales derived from PC or cries of 'racism' cos you can't think of a better argument - let's see you justify that assertion. |
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07 Nov 09 - 01:55 PM (#2761635) Subject: RE: England My England From: The Sandman I think I might go and play my Concertina. |
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07 Nov 09 - 02:51 PM (#2761658) Subject: RE: England My England From: Jack Blandiver In posting those old film links I was giving you my own personal Chocolate Box image - the Utopia of my inner dreaming that was once my home. What I wouldn't give to be able to feel the heat off one of the old saddle tank engines of a winters morning (when I should have been at school) or else stand in my Uncle Ken's garden of a moonlit November night gazing up at the chimneys of Blyth Power Station belching God knows what into the stars whilst the dirty old engines shunted coal trucks on the staiths. Next time you're watching Get Carter keep your eyes peeled - you'll catch a glimpse of it there. For my personal paean (and a free download!): Blyth Requiem / Autumn 2003. That was my England - my perfect paradise - and they fucked it over without mercy. The demolishing of Blyth Power Station was the last straw - I now live in Lancashire where everything is new to me. Jesus, just listen to me! How many old folkies does it take to change a light-bulb anyway???? Now back to NEU!, which was one of the albums we used to listen to in those far off times on my old Fidelity stereo powered by good old fashioned Northumbrian coal-fired electricity... |
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07 Nov 09 - 03:40 PM (#2761686) Subject: RE: England My England From: Paul Davenport 'In posting those old film links I was giving you my own personal Chocolate Box image - the Utopia of my inner dreaming that was once my home.' And beautiful they were. I remember trekking out to Backworth to visit Nibs Pearson of Earsdon Rapper back in 1970. Brought that memory back, open fields and industry alongside each other. There aren't many people who lament the fall of power stations (we do in Sheffield) Lovely stuff, and perhaps that's the point where we all agree. I love your term, 'inner dreaming'. I think I'll go and play my guitar now. |
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07 Nov 09 - 05:02 PM (#2761736) Subject: RE: England My England From: michaelr You have the NEU album? Electro-Kraut rock at its best! I grew up in Germany, and I miss that stuff. Just recently managed to find the first Faust album (on clear vinyl) reissued. Thread creep away from England, sorry. |
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07 Nov 09 - 07:27 PM (#2761803) Subject: RE: England My England From: Spleen Cringe Michaelr - you're forgiven. If we can't talk about Krautrock in a thread about England, we can't live. Now, anyone like Ash Ra temple? |
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08 Nov 09 - 04:48 AM (#2761960) Subject: RE: England My England From: Lizzie Cornish 1 "England is founded on class-division, oppression, subjugation and exploitation; our culture is built on the tortured backs of the rural & urban working-class and this continues to be the case today. The other day in Liverpool we took shelter from the downpour in St Georges Hall, this noble edifice of a particularly English take on Classicism wherein the sumptuous banqueting hall is built over the prison cells below; a testimony to the pre-requisites of mass squalor, poverty, crime and human depravity which is truly England's Glory." Absolute poppycock! Show me a country where the strong don't 'rule' the weak! Geez! It is that attitude that has caused so much damage to this country, and to our young people! "This is the country I was born into and I am under no illusions about our Heritage, nor of the evil represented by the pictures on The Chocolate Box, much less the tooth-rotting folksie twee faux-pourri Country House / Cathedral horrors it contains by way of marketing a myth however so comforting that myth might be. " You mean that even our chocolate boxes are Evil????? Oh come ON! Whether you like it or not, not every thatched cottage carried inside it members from Oppressors R Us! Some people were just very happy living their lives, hard though they may have been....but were they harder than ours? Physically yes, of course....but they had a simplicity that brought something special, which we have oh so lost these days... "Personally, I've always preferred Jonathan Meades to Alan Titchmarch anyway." Personally, I've always thought that Jonathan Meades is an up his own building, sneery type of architect, whereas Alan is a down to muddyearth Yorkshireman with a whacking good sense of humour, a deep love of the land, and of his grandfather who taught him about the land.. The Miners Strike caused much bitterness and hatred....understandably, but that hatred has been kept alive for decades, and it has scarred not only this land, but all those who still have hate in their hearts. The miners lives were changed for ever...Mine was changed by The Royal Mail.... Get over it.... It doesn't make England a bad place... |
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08 Nov 09 - 05:11 AM (#2761966) Subject: RE: England My England From: Spleen Cringe You really don't like Northerners do you? Tell you what, we'll apply to move the Scottish border down to the southern side of Brum... |
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08 Nov 09 - 05:31 AM (#2761972) Subject: RE: England My England From: WalkaboutsVerse Poem 212 of 230: REMEMBER THEM? Back when we became defenders (We have plainly been attackers), Defenders' blood, sweat and years Were paid to keep a good home-way - A way yet to be part stealth-blown, As mass immigration gained-sway And as we slipped as maintainers. From http://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse (e-book) Or http://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com (e-scroll) (C) David Franks 2003 |
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08 Nov 09 - 05:50 AM (#2761979) Subject: RE: England My England From: Jack Blandiver You mean that even our chocolate boxes are Evil????? Oh come ON! Whether you like it or not, not every thatched cottage carried inside it members from Oppressors R Us! The chocolate boxes are manufactured in crumbling pre-fab units on industrial estates of Middlesbrough by a callow proletarian youths grateful of a minimum wage. The pictures on the boxes have no meaning for them, but the bucolic idyll persists even in the riot-torn housing estates where they dwell in shadows. In one such chocolate box a junkie keeps her syringes and stash; in another a gangster keeps his knife and gun; in yet another a paedophile keeps his cherished computer disks and faded polaroids. Those same thatched cottages are now owned by wealthy commuters and second-homers whose wealth has pushed up the house prices so the locals can no longer afford to live there; worse still, the ancient interiors have been torn out and replaced by neo-rural DIY blandness. Show me a country where the strong don't 'rule' the weak! The strong have dispossed the weak; the cocolate box idyll is a cipher of inhumanity and Darwinian social cruelty which accepts aforementioned junkie, ganster and paedophile as prerequisites of an ongoing priviledge which is, as you say, Ye Good Olde English way. Their suffering is thus justified; they are the deserving victims of the Cocolate Box England of which you are so proud. Meanwhile, we pay good money to go into castles which were built to oppress, brutilise, enslave, rape and burn the people of our country into the numb pacifity which is yet our English Heritage. Meabwhile - we pay good money to go into the Country Houses which were built on the aforemention back-breaking labours, squallor and poverty of the urban and rural working classes; we marvel at Cathedrals raised to the glory of a God who ordered the estates of both the strong and the weak. Tell you what, if you don't like this country, then b*gger off somewhere else. To repeat my post of 06 Nov 09 - 09:50 AM: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqoTNVwhrAg O'er grassy dale, and lowland scene Come see, come hear, the English Scheme. The lower-class, want brass, bad chests, scrounge fags. The clever ones tend to emigrate Like your psychotic big brother, who left home For jobs in Holland, Munich, Rome He's thick but he struck it rich, switch The commune crap, camp bop, middle-class, flip-flop Guess that's why they end up in bands He's the green piece in us all He's the creep-creep in us all Condescends to black men Very nice to them They talk of Chile while driving through Haslingden You got sixty hour weeks, and stone stone toilet back-gardens Peter Cook's jokes, bad dope, check shirts, lousy groups Point their fingers at America Down pokey quaint streets in Cambridge Cycles our distant spastic heritage Its a gay red, roundhead, army career, grim head If we was smart we'd emigrate Distant spastic heritage indeed! |
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08 Nov 09 - 05:51 AM (#2761980) Subject: RE: England My England From: Jack Blandiver WAV - fuck off with your racist / fascist bullshit already. |
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08 Nov 09 - 06:06 AM (#2761986) Subject: RE: England My England From: WalkaboutsVerse "Fascist" (S.) derives from a dictatorial Italian party opposed to communism; I am pro-democracy and have repeatedly criticised capitalism; there is no racism or fascism in my above poem, nor the rest of my life's work. |
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08 Nov 09 - 06:06 AM (#2761987) Subject: RE: England My England From: s&r WAV there are 62 copy pastes of this drivel at various places on the web, including 2 on current threads. Surely enough is enough. This repetitive posting is SPAM not contributions to a thread, or free speech. Stu |
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08 Nov 09 - 06:18 AM (#2761990) Subject: RE: England My England From: The Borchester Echo What Sean said. All of it. |
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08 Nov 09 - 06:22 AM (#2761993) Subject: RE: England My England From: Jack Blandiver Fascism derives from the repetition of the same old lies until they become true; you are only pro-WAV and have repeated these same old lies until most of here could recite them in our sleep. Your Life's Work is both racist and fascist by default; it is also 100% bullshit. If you weren't a racist (or indeed a fascist) you would not think as you do and write what you have, much less persist in the promotion of this inane philosophy at every possible opportunity. As Stu says, what you contribute here is SPAM - it is not discussion. |
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08 Nov 09 - 06:32 AM (#2761997) Subject: RE: England My England From: Tim Leaning So this is what our educated middle classes do when they aint deciding whats best for the rest of us... Have a good weekend all. |
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08 Nov 09 - 09:34 AM (#2762065) Subject: RE: England My England From: Dave the Gnome Get over it.... It doesn't make England a bad place... No, England is not a bad place at all. Looking back through the thread plenty of people have said it was a bad place for some and still is for others. The only one implying that anyone thinks it is a bad place now is you, Lizzie. For one who 'has England running through their blood', or whatever it was, I find it remarkable that you cannot accept that there are things wrong. Surely it is those of us that can see the country, for all it's past crimes and current faults, and yet still find it the best place to live that realy love the old girl isn't it? Remember the story of Jonah and the whale? Jonah kept his faith, but the devil argued with god that while life was good it was easy for Jonah to do so. So, they made life very difficult for the poor old sod (god can be a bastard sometimes can't he!)and yet Jonah still kept faith. He had a whinge and whine every now and again, like we all do, but he stuck with it and won through in the end. Anyone who has never had their faith in anything tested cannot realy know if the faith is strong enough. Anyone who can only see the good in something is in for a big disappointment when the shit hits the fan! DeG |
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08 Nov 09 - 09:50 AM (#2762070) Subject: RE: England My England From: Dave the Gnome My apologies to all bible scholars - I had a mental abberration and got my J's mixed up. It was of course JOB who was tested - not Jonah. I suppose I am on my way to the fiery pit now but, then again, I knew that anyway:-) DeG |
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08 Nov 09 - 09:53 AM (#2762072) Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion D el G - I think you mean Job, not Jonah, don't you? |
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08 Nov 09 - 09:55 AM (#2762074) Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion Oh poo — isn't it a bummer when you cross·post & look silly. BUM! |
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08 Nov 09 - 10:14 AM (#2762087) Subject: RE: England My England From: Dave the Gnome Join me at the barbie, MtheGM? :D |
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08 Nov 09 - 10:40 AM (#2762096) Subject: RE: England My England From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) I think the Good Soldier has it about right.. England is whatever it is for whomever lives here, but for me it's essentially about being and *doing* - not about fantasies of 'blood' or faded historical characters, or even the bloody history of oppression from which it has been birthed. It's the air I breathe which goes into my lungs and out again, the landscape around me that I see with my own eyes (be that council estate or village), the woodlands I go illegally trespassing through, the folk clubs I sing at, the Beebs essential Dickens production (which tells us it must be Christmas again) that I will inevitably watch like everyone else this winter, it's the Austen that will make me laugh again in Spring when I revise those old volumes, or the Mighty Boosh which does the same whenever I pull it up on YouTube, it'll be backpacking along the Suffolk coast this Winter Solstice, gathering Holly and Ivy on Xmas Eve, it's the Chinese takeaway we're having for Sunday lunch while watching an old film on telly, it's being an outsider in my own village as the elderly locals slowly die away to be replaced with estates of faux classical housing for commuters. That's England "My England" for good or ill, because it's the life I live, drawn from all that one may find that is readily available to both me and everyone else here. Elements I'm not so content with - hence me searching for a new part of the country in which to reside, but it's up to me at the end of the day to either like or lump, or better still take action. The closest thing to an 'inner-dreaming' of England I have is probably to be found on threads on Mudcat, filled with a bunch of quirky old beardy folkies - like The re-Imagined village. I do like it there I must say, and as I'm searching for a new place to reside, would quite happily re-locate to East Rivington if there were a means.. But if people like Lizzie, really don't like the England they're a part of, why not simply get out there and become an *activist* investing energy in those things that are worth creating, supporting and maintaining so everyone can continue to appreciate them, and err like 'make this England a better place?' or something.. ;-) PS Lizzie, this one is especially for you, it's an excellent organisation and I'd strongly suggest you sign-up and make a difference to something that seems to matter strongly to you: Liberty - Take Action! |
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08 Nov 09 - 01:27 PM (#2762201) Subject: RE: England My England From: The Sandman do you mind if I bring in the EFDSS. Tucked away at the top of Camden Town,The English Folk Dance and Song Society,Battles on in a way Reminiscent of Trevor Baileys batting,hanging in there,not exactly dashing or dashing away with the smoothing iron,refusing to let itself be bowled out,admirable in a terribly English way,stiff upper lip, backward defensive ,but still there. It stands four square, rugged and defiant braving the cold north winds defying the elements,a jolly good show. but typical of England my England,flourishing when it has its back to the wall,existing by the occasional handout,and in the past from deceased members generous wills. England my England,the EFDSS and Cecil Sharp House holed up in Camden Town,defiant to the last,braving the elements,doggedly fighting on refusing to move.,like a bulldog guarding its master[the VWML]. the epitome of Englishness. |
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08 Nov 09 - 01:34 PM (#2762206) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton OK that should bring in another collection of people with fascinating views of almost everything! L in C |
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08 Nov 09 - 01:36 PM (#2762210) Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion Yes — pity C#House is such an institutional, joyless, 1930s do-gooder kind of place, isn't it! I remember reviewing a London Folk Festival there back in the 60s-70s, and saying they tried awful hard, but the place is so horribly unfestive... |
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08 Nov 09 - 01:50 PM (#2762219) Subject: RE: England My England From: The Borchester Echo I think you mean "wasn't it?" when you describe C# in such terms. As a former worker from 1969 to 1971, I was alternately terrorised and deeply disheartened by the rod-of-iron rule by an accountant and the disapproval of the "dauncers" and for two decades after leaving could scacely bear to enter its dreary portals. However, since the arrival of Katy Spicer, the new chief executive, things have looked up considerably and amazingly. For Verity Sharp's Apple Day recently, the walls were draped - somewhat bizarrely - with farming implements, shepherds' clothing and big red apples. The music was brilliant, joyous and unrestrained. It might even become MY EFDSS once more as it transforms itself into where to look for a New England. |
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08 Nov 09 - 01:56 PM (#2762226) Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion Last time I was there, Diane, was for the Bob Copper Memorial Concert, about 3 or 4 years ago. Can't say I found it very much more cheerful than than I used to 30 years ago. How recent was this event you describe? Michael |
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08 Nov 09 - 02:08 PM (#2762231) Subject: RE: England My England From: The Borchester Echo Apple Day was on 17 October. I too was at the Bob Copper commemoration which was also brilliant musically though the surroundings were as dreary as ever before. This took place well before the appointment of Katy Spicer who has achieved much in a short time. Additionally, the accession of Ms Carthy to the post of Vice President as well as the revamp of English Dance & Song and the arrival of some "progressives" on the EC have resulted in (comparatively) massive shake-ups. |
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08 Nov 09 - 02:32 PM (#2762251) Subject: RE: England My England From: Paul Davenport Hmm…'revamp of English Dance & Song' First time I've heard a really positive, unsolicited comment on that. Thanks. I just wish you hadn't brought C# House into this thread. Although everything said about it is true there is one thing that you might not know. The sign outside indicates that it is now, 'London's Folk Centre'. (You might intimate that there was some disquiet about this from outside London) :-) |
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08 Nov 09 - 02:37 PM (#2762254) Subject: RE: England My England From: The Borchester Echo Wasn't me who brought the DEAFASS in . . . I merely commented on what Dick & Mike said. |
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08 Nov 09 - 03:04 PM (#2762266) Subject: RE: England My England From: Jack Blandiver We bought the Joy Division Heart & Soul box set today. Does it get any more English? |
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08 Nov 09 - 03:42 PM (#2762288) Subject: RE: England My England From: The Sandman I never mentioned the deafass,I mentioned the EFDSS. Londons Folk Centre, hurrah, well done whoever,the truth is out. however The EFDSS may be Londons folk centre,But I still think of them when I think of England,they remind me of Dr Beeching too,disbanding most of their branches, hopefully they will reverse that foolish move. I am glad to hear they are starting to do lots of positive things. |
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08 Nov 09 - 03:47 PM (#2762291) Subject: RE: England My England From: Lizzie Cornish 1 "The chocolate boxes are manufactured in crumbling pre-fab units on industrial estates of Middlesbrough by a callow proletarian youths grateful of a minimum wage." More like China, these days... ;0) Gawd, even the National Trust's bits and bobs come from China, more often than not..Yikes! "Te pictures on the boxes have no meaning for them,..." Yeah, but er..that's because they've turned off from their history BIGTIME, because they've been told they're nothing but a bunch of Slave Trade Oppressors, so they've never seen carts horses, or thatched cottage lit by candlelight, or merry peasants dancing their hearts out when the fiddler fiddled.. "but the bucolic idyll persists even in the riot-torn housing estates where they dwell in shadows. In one such chocolate box a junkie keeps her syringes and stash; in another a gangster keeps his knife and gun; in yet another a paedophile keeps his cherished computer disks and faded polaroids. " Damned handy things those Chinese Chocolate Boxes...but there's also the chocolate box that is filled with photos of English cricket, being played upon the Village Greens, and Spitfires flying overhead...pictures of a country brought together by a war, a war that they went to fight willingly, for the good of the whole world..and in the corner of that chocolate box lies a half smoked cigar, and a few frayed remains of a black hat, together with the words of a great Englishman, called William..."So enormous, so dreadful, so irremediable did the Trade's wickedness appear that my own mind was completely made up for Abolition. Let the consequences be what they would, I from this time determined that I would never rest until I had effected its abolition." All of these items sit upon a CD by The Imagined Village... "Those same thatched cottages are now owned by wealthy commuters and second-homers whose wealth has pushed up the house prices so the locals can no longer afford to live there; worse still, the ancient interiors have been torn out and replaced by neo-rural DIY blandness." Double yeah, but......the villagers themselves sold their cottages to they grockles and they emmits (as we call them down here), then they b*ggered off to Spain to live in Eldorado, whilst moaning that they can no longer afford their own homes in their own villages. ???? And of course, why would the Proles want to live in ancient cottages which speak of England's history, because they know that her history is Big Brother and The X Factor, and the way forward is Posh and Becks....innit? Oh...and they've no time to use the village shop or post office, 'cos they've all got 4X4's which speed through the lanes to Sainsbury's and Tesco's so they can all have 24/7 food throughout 24/7 seasons..and most of 'em couldn't even tell you what fruit and vegetables grow in which season, in an English Country Garden... ........and cue song! Very emotive piece of writing though, SOP. |
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08 Nov 09 - 03:54 PM (#2762296) Subject: RE: England My England From: The Borchester Echo I have seen a Tuvian throat singer doing Joy Division songs (NOT at "The London Folk Centre" (good grief) but the South Bank. No, I'm not very happy with C# House being named that. There are "Irish Centres" in most conurbations throughout the land. No-one calls them Irish "F*lk" Centres. A similar chain of "English Centres" would be rather good. |
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08 Nov 09 - 06:24 PM (#2762381) Subject: RE: England My England From: Folkiedave I was at C#House recently and it seemed to be buzzing. A huge change from hte 60's. Mike, get involved!! |
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09 Nov 09 - 12:49 AM (#2762544) Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion Thanks, Dave, Diane et al. I shall have a look next time I'm round those parts and hope for a pleasant surprise at the new all-singing all-dancing all=buzzing C#H... |
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09 Nov 09 - 04:16 AM (#2762586) Subject: RE: England My England From: Ruth Archer The EFDSS has just become an Arts Council England Regularly Funded Organisation. There will be £200k a year spent on all sorts of strategic projects both in London and around the country. This would never have happened 10 years ago, when the EFDSS was seen by the folk world itself as a backward and inward-looking organisation, and it barely registered on the Arts Council's radar. The process of modernisation and development has been going on for several years now, and long may it continue. A good example of the type of work we are talking about is the Take 6 project, which digitised 6 of the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library's major collections and put them on-line, as well as taking several of those collections back into the communities from which they were first collected through projects in schools. Next, I believe that they are working in partnership with the Wren Trust on digitising the Baring-Gould collection, and that it will be housed on the EFDSS site. EFDSS is currently recruiting several new members of staff to help make their new goals achievable. It is a robust, thriving organisation, and the the magazine has, under its current editorship, taken massive steps forward as well. There is a lot to be proud of. |
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09 Nov 09 - 05:39 AM (#2762603) Subject: RE: England My England From: Jack Blandiver ........and cue song! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1sXEI91QVY |
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09 Nov 09 - 06:14 AM (#2762611) Subject: RE: England My England From: The Sandman glad to hear it, Ruth. |
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09 Nov 09 - 07:25 AM (#2762649) Subject: RE: England My England From: allanc "make up of House of Commons" There have been several posts in this thread suggesting that Scots are controlling the voting in the House of Commons. Of course it is for the most part complete nonsense. At the last election Labour came out with an overall majority of 66 seats in the UK as a whole. The total number of Scottish MPs was 59 and because of the skewed system Scotland did send a Labour majority of 23 to Westminster. In fact by number of seats Labour had a bigger majority in seats from England (ie 43) than it had in its 23 majority within Scotland. The idea that 23 Scottish MPs can control the voting is silly. The problem is not Scotland v England. Rather it is Labour's half finished constitutional changes and their willingness to abuse the democratic process and of course probably the Tories would have acted no differently. The myth is that Scottish MPs can vote on English only matters and not the other way round. Actually it is false. Scottish MPs can vote on English only matters it is true. It is unfair but at least for the most part it is only a theoretical democratic deficit. I think there have only been a couple of cases where it actually made any difference and it probably only made the difference because Scottish opposition MPS like the SNP members refused to vote on matters that didn't concern them. At the same time the Labour administration in Edinburgh (supported by the Lib Dems) used the Sewell Motion over 60 times. This meant they bypassed the Holyrood parliament by passing on what should have been devolved legislation back to Westmisnter. Hence all Westminster MPs got a vote on these measures when none of them (whether they be English or Scots) had any democratic mandate to do so. It is wrong that Scots MPs should vote, and of course may be forced to vote by the party whips, on measures that don't concern them. Even though sometimes it is quite difficult to say what does and what doesn't concern them as any matter concerning overall government funding directly affects overall funding in Scotland. Scotland suffered a massive democratic deficit and it took a massive campaign to eventually sort it out. No doubt if there was a tiny majority and because of Scottish votes the English suffered a real democratic deficit rather than a theoretical one then the problem would be sorted pretty quickly as the vast bulk of MPs are English. There are various solutions with the UK structure. A full federal UK; an English Parliament; or when concerning English only matters an English Grand Commitee made up of only English based Westminster MPS. The last solution appears the easiest but it could theoretically make for static government in England. For instance of the govt didn't have a majority in England and couldn't get other party support to carry out legislation on English only matters - whilst having enough UK members to survive and vote of confidence at full UK level. |
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09 Nov 09 - 07:25 AM (#2762650) Subject: RE: England My England From: bubblyrat Having read every single one of the above responses,I can only say how very sorry I am that so many of you,with one or two notable exceptions, appear to be so uneasy,if not actually desperately ashamed,about the idea of "pride" in your English national identity,with or without all its faults and mistakes. My own personal view is that most of you should,in all honesty,seriously consider the idea of re-locating to perhaps Canada or Australia or,better still, Afghanistan,where your distinctly unpatriotic,history-bunking,tradition-hating,hand-wringing apologist views would ,one hopes,probably occasion some discomfiture. God Save The Queen. |
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09 Nov 09 - 07:29 AM (#2762652) Subject: RE: England My England From: theleveller "PS Lizzie, this one is especially for you, it's an excellent organisation and I'd strongly suggest you sign-up and make a difference to something that seems to matter strongly to you: Liberty - Take Action!" Thanks for that, CS - I've just been there and joined. Bring on the Republic! |
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09 Nov 09 - 07:36 AM (#2762654) Subject: RE: England My England From: bubblyrat Thankyou, ALLANC , for a most illuminating posting,which I have read with great interest. I had always believed that there was, in fact,a finite limit on the actual numbers of Scottish MPs allowed to have a seat at Westminster,which was being blatantly and illegally exceeded by would-be Dictator Brown,but your revelations suggest not. Sadly, I cannot at present decide as to whether I should be pleased, or disappointed !! |
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09 Nov 09 - 07:54 AM (#2762660) Subject: RE: England My England From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) "Thanks for that, CS - I've just been there and joined" Good man Leveller - Lizzie may have missed it, but at least someone noticed.. ;-) And in particular for any interested lawyers here at Mudcat, who might not know: Lawyers for Liberty |
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09 Nov 09 - 08:03 AM (#2762664) Subject: RE: England My England From: GUEST,Mike There is great deal to be proud of in England - at least North of the Watford Gap. |
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09 Nov 09 - 08:16 AM (#2762672) Subject: RE: England My England From: matt milton Taking pride in the arbitrary rock that your parents chromosomes happened to be located on is nonsensical - it's a bizarre contortion of common use of the noun 'pride'. To feel pride in one's heritage is frankly weird: when you think about it, it's feeling good about yourself because of things that other people have done. Other people. Not you. It's like a sketch that Mitchell & Webb did, which took the piss out of the insistence of couch-potato football fans that "We" won the match 4-nil, that "We" scored a blinder of a goal... Generally speaking one takes pride in something that one has actually done. I can neither be proud nor ashamed to happen to have been born in England. The only example I can think of, when this kind of pride-in-the-collective would have any kind of sense would be if, say, you felt proud of some courageous foreign policy decision taken by a government you had voted for. (Or, probably more likely, felt shame at some bloody awful foreign policy taken by a government you had voted for.) |
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09 Nov 09 - 08:37 AM (#2762686) Subject: RE: England My England From: Keith A of Hertford Matt, suppose you were born into a hypothetical land whose history was all noble and which had been a great force for good in the world. Would it not be natural to feel grateful to have been born into such a country. And would you not feel a little inherited pride that your parents, grandparents, and all your forbears had contributed to making your country such a good place? |
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09 Nov 09 - 08:51 AM (#2762693) Subject: RE: England My England From: matt milton Well I am very pleased that I happen to have been born in the UK at the time I was, rather than, say, Rwanda. There are plenty of activists, politicians, freethinkers who have fought for benefits that make my life as a UK resident a hell of a lot easier than for a citizen of North Korea. But I can't say "pride" is what I feel. There's just something a bit pompous and weird in that. |
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09 Nov 09 - 08:56 AM (#2762695) Subject: RE: England My England From: theleveller Yes, I'm certainly against the blind and destructive jingoism that 'pride' can imply and, indeed, generate. This doesn't, however, mean that there can't be an affection for and an attachment and affinity to Britain (I don't think of England, or any of the other parts of the British Isles, in isolation) – and to a particular area that, for whatever reason, has special associations. I think it's important to have a 'sense of place'. For me that place happens to be East Yorkshire, where I was born and where my family has lived for several generations, but I've also felt at home in other parts of the country where I've lived and there are other areas that I feel particularly drawn to. My England (Britain) is a personal thing, not a nationalistic sentiment. |
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09 Nov 09 - 08:56 AM (#2762696) Subject: RE: England My England From: Dave the Gnome so many of you,with one or two notable exceptions, appear to be so uneasy,if not actually desperately ashamed,about the idea of "pride" in your English national identity Where is that Mr Rat? Who has said they are ashamed by the idea of pride? The impression I get is that everyone, with one or two notable exceptions, are proud of England for reasons other than it's 'glorious' past. I have stated over and over again I am proud of Englands record on accepting other cultures and the tolerance that is shown for other peoples and ideas. I am neither proud or ashamed of 'England' because it is a lump of rock and mud that has no choice and I am not particularly proud or ashamed to be born in England because I had no say over that. There is nothing to proud of the bigots and narrow minded people who promote the facile nonsense in the song but as I have no control over them and they do not represent my England I cannot say I am ashamed of them either. As to your 'if you don't like it leave the country' attitude. Well, I think it says far more about your leanings than I could but I shall let other people make up their own minds. DeG |
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09 Nov 09 - 08:56 AM (#2762697) Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion I take the point of Matt and others who have expressed similar opinions on this thread; but can't help feeling there comes a sort of Hegelian tipping-point where such extreme rationality and denial of what is generally regarded as an instinctual and natural emotion can tip over into a sort of anti-humanistic negativity. Did you not feel pleased in your schooldays if the school 1st XI won a match against a rival team, for instance, even if you weren't playing yourself? Do you not identify with any outside entity [football team, say; or your old school or college] and wish them well? If your old college/university is on University Challenge, don't you hope they will win, even tho all those young people are all so much after your time? Really not? Goodness, how sad! |
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09 Nov 09 - 09:02 AM (#2762702) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton Good one Matt. Leave now before tha mad ones return L in C |
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09 Nov 09 - 09:04 AM (#2762703) Subject: RE: England My England From: matt milton I guess I'm only fixating on that word because it seems to be quite an unhealthy fixation for some other people. And I think it's frequently used utterly unquestionably by perfectly well-meaning people in a particularly fatuous way. You can bet that all the courageous people who made the good things about the UK good did not achieve what they achieved because they were sitting around feeling proud about their great-grandparents. They were too busy getting on with stuff - seeing what was wrong and making it right. |
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09 Nov 09 - 09:08 AM (#2762708) Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion But, Matt, I bet you they were PROUD of their grandparents as well. Why do you regard the two things [pride & getting·on·with·it] as incompatible? |
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09 Nov 09 - 09:12 AM (#2762711) Subject: RE: England My England From: Keith A of Hertford Perhaps they were inspired by the achievements of their forbears, and to continue the work that they had begun. |
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09 Nov 09 - 09:17 AM (#2762717) Subject: RE: England My England From: matt milton " but can't help feeling there comes a sort of Hegelian tipping-point where such extreme rationality and denial of what is generally regarded as an instinctual and natural emotion can tip over into a sort of anti-humanistic negativity. Did you not feel pleased in your schooldays if the school 1st XI won a match against a rival team, for instance, even if you weren't playing yourself? " Sure, yes, of course - but it's significant that all the things you mention are things that you have a living and breathing connection to. But you'd surely think it a bit strange if someone was cheering on their great-great-granddad's college team on University Challenge, right? For me, it gets really daft when it's extended to art, as if Shakespeare's plays and John Dowland's music were written by some national collective that I am part of. When actually they were the creative work of two clever men who put the hours in. If anything, I'm probably less narked by the jingoism of national pride than the, I dunno, credit-taking of it all. |
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09 Nov 09 - 09:28 AM (#2762728) Subject: RE: England My England From: matt milton it doesn't strike me as any more likely that one would be inspired by forebears from one's own country as by one's contemporaries from elsewhere there's also an assumption here that one's forebears share the same nationality or indeed culture as oneself, which hasn't necessarily been the case for a lot of people in the UK I suppose I'm making the point that there are vast swathes of people who are wholly uninterested in sentimentalising nationhood, for whom it's an irrelevance. |
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09 Nov 09 - 09:31 AM (#2762733) Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion "as if Shakespeare's plays and John Dowland's music were written by some national collective that I am part of." They were part of, and contribute to the totality of, a sort of national atmosphere, a gestalt. If you really don't feel that, then I honestly think you are the loser, that your extreme over-rationality is robbing you of something vital and valuable. |
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09 Nov 09 - 09:39 AM (#2762740) Subject: RE: England My England From: Keith A of Hertford It is observed that children in an ethnic or cultural group that have no positive role models from their group tend to underachieve. Must it not work in reverse if you are fortunate enough to belong to a group with a great, progressive history of achievement. |
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09 Nov 09 - 09:47 AM (#2762745) Subject: RE: England My England From: matt milton Well if you could actually tell me specifically what it was I was missing out on, then you might have a point. But to talk of a "national atmosphere" is way too nebulous. You may as well just say "I'm enjoying this more than you". And then it's "No you're not", "Yes I am" ad nauseam. I get goosebumps reading Shakespeare. I get goosebumps listening to Ali Farka Touré. The country they're from is peripheral. |
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09 Nov 09 - 09:47 AM (#2762746) Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion 'there's also an assumption here that one's forebears share the same nationality or indeed culture as oneself, which hasn't necessarily been the case for a lot of people in the UK' It indeed was not the case with me, as a matter of fact. But it is where I was born, brought up, educated, have breathed and had my being all my life - so that I have absorbed its atmosphere culturally, as it were. I don't see that the fact that my ancestors were elsewhere at the time Of Shax & Dowland [to adopt Matt's two useful examples] disqualifies me from feeling part of the ambiance that their achievements are also part of. I say again — it is possible to be too objective & rational ... to the exclusion of some valuable emotional experience. |
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09 Nov 09 - 09:56 AM (#2762755) Subject: RE: England My England From: allanc Pride in one's country! I'm finding this a bit of a strange thread. I agree that there is no place for chauvinism but I'm struggling to understand why an Englishman shouldn't have pride in his country as much as anyone else does. Isn't it natural for people to have pride in their country's beauty;in its culture both high and low; in the achievements of its people both past and present; in its architecture; sporting achievements etc? There is surely a difference between a natural love and pride for your country as opposed to a chauvinistic attitude where one believe's oneself somehow special and better than everyone else? |
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09 Nov 09 - 10:08 AM (#2762761) Subject: RE: England My England From: Keith A of Hertford Matt, I suggest that you go into an Irish pub on St Patricks night and explain to the revellers that being Irish is nothing to be proud of. Similarly, on Burn's night, tell those celebrating that Burns' nationality was and is irrelevant. Get someone to film you and put it on YouTube. |
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09 Nov 09 - 10:09 AM (#2762762) Subject: RE: England My England From: matt milton Who said anything about excluding anything? And what is this valuable emotional experience? When you're enjoying a Shakespeare play, what extra endorphins get tickled by reminding yourself of the banal coincidence between the author's place of residence and yours? I'm not missing out on anything; I read books from all over the place; I listen to music from all over the place; and I feel no impulse to mystify that. |
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09 Nov 09 - 10:10 AM (#2762764) Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion BTW, Matt: if I happened to know which college such a remote ancestor happened to have been at, then of course I'd rather they won U Chall than the one some other bugger's great-great-granddad was at. I happen to have had an uncle who was at Trinity Hall, Cambridge, before I was born. So, unless they happen to be playing my college or my wife's, of course I like to see them win. Why? - I hear you ask. Oh, don't be so bloody rational ! |
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09 Nov 09 - 10:14 AM (#2762766) Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion "And what is this valuable emotional experience? When you're enjoying a Shakespeare play, what extra endorphins get tickled by reminding yourself of the banal coincidence between the author's place of residence and yours?" Good questions Matt. & here's another — why, I wonder, do I feel so sorry for you for asking them? |
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09 Nov 09 - 10:19 AM (#2762770) Subject: RE: England My England From: matt milton Steady on, I may have no truck with nationalism, but I don't let that get in the way of a piss-up on Burns Night or St Pat's.... |
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09 Nov 09 - 10:23 AM (#2762773) Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion Ah, well: if your idea of a valuable emotional experience is a piss-up, I suppose it's better than nothing... |
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09 Nov 09 - 11:25 AM (#2762802) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton Nelson Mandela and I have distant relatives in common. Should I be proud to be related to him? Or should I simply feel lucky to be around at a time when such a person lived the life he did and offers such a ............. dunno really role model? Too feeble a statement ........ incredible example of humanity? L in C |
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09 Nov 09 - 12:42 PM (#2762855) Subject: RE: England My England From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe I'm not sure Matt's point is as a result of ultra-rationalism. I get a mad shiver down my spine when listen to English singer Peter Bellamy. I also get it when I listen to American singer Dock Boggs or Indian sarod player Ajmad Ali Khan or Scottish singer Lizzie Higgins (or Anglo-Franco-Aussie prog behemoths, Gong!)... I love the writing of William Boyd and Graham Greene and many other English authors but equally Americans Harry Crews and TC Boyle. And so on. I don't get why shared nationality should give me an extra frisson that should be missing when it comes to art and music created by people from other countries. And I'm not sure what I'm missing by not having a differently calibrated, um, frisson generator. I wonder, Mark, if Englishness is simply a more tangible concept for you than it is for me? Maybe you also feel more shame at the parts of English culture and history you struggle with than I do, too? It's an interesting area - the psychology of nationhood, I suppose you could call it. I get that extra frisson if I read something or listen to something that's fantastic by someone I personally know, but that's not about abstract concepts of nationhood, its about the pleasure in enjoying from a friend's skill and creativity. Maybe some people feel that way about everyone within their national boundary? I dunno. The one area where I think I might understand what you are experiencing is in the landscape. When I am stomping up Scafell Pike or Kinder Scout or round Malham, I get a real sense of overwhelming and almost giddy exhilaration and wellbeing. I get this at some of the wilder coastal areas too. I don't get this, though, in English cities and towns, most of the flat bits, pretty chocolate-boxy bits or the boring bits in between. I fully accept that others do. I can't say it's confined to England either - I've had the same feeling in the Himalayas, the Western Ghats ands the Australian Grampians. But my point is, maybe the sensation is the same, and maybe we all attach to different things. I'm not sure I'd call the sensation pride, but I could imagine that for some people, national pride might not feel dissimilar. Doesn't do it for me though! |
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09 Nov 09 - 01:16 PM (#2762885) Subject: RE: England My England From: The Sandman I have pride when I have done something well. I dont feel a national pride,nor do I wish to sing God save the Queen,I would rather sing God Save Oscar Wilde, at least he was witty. |
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09 Nov 09 - 01:22 PM (#2762889) Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion Perhaps "pride" is the wrong word for the feeling we are endeavouring to express. "Solidarity"; "association"; "sense of oneness" — perhaps something like one of these would be better. Those who feel it, however you choose to name and express it, will know what we mean. Those who don't — well, then, you don't. We're all different. & I hope it keeps fine for you... |
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09 Nov 09 - 02:24 PM (#2762924) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton Exlnt poit: "Solidarity"; "association"; "sense of oneness" but with people who dun gud not with a country? L in C |
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09 Nov 09 - 02:45 PM (#2762939) Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion Well, with both, LinC — but with the feeling enhanced if the achiever happens also to share the nationality. I mean, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven are all greater composers than any Britain has provided and it would be foolish to pretend otherwise. But there is an agreeable feeling nevertheless to the thought that when it comes to writers, we can equal (& I should say pretty well top) any of them. Why? Just a gut feeling, I suppose. But I can see no harm in it, at that; or feel it in any way the sort of unworthy sensation that several posters to this thread seem to think I should. |
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09 Nov 09 - 02:58 PM (#2762944) Subject: RE: England My England From: The Borchester Echo Bach, Mozart, Beethoven are all greater composers than any Britain has provided Eh? Tallis, Byrd & Dowland for starters and that's not even getting past the renaissance. |
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09 Nov 09 - 03:41 PM (#2762973) Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion Nice try, Diane. Beautiful all. I too love renaissance music. But not in same league as 3 Teutons I mentioned — & if that's the period you are urging, I don't think your 3 will match Palestrina or Josquin des Près at that. This last bit a matter of individual taste, I will admit. My initial assertion not so, I fear. And whom, post-renaissance as implied in your rejoinder, do you urge? Purcell seems to me the sole possible candidate. Sullivan? Elgar? RVW? Britten? Considerable all — but in same league as Bach or Mozart? Come now — not like you to let chauvinism so carry you away! |
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09 Nov 09 - 04:45 PM (#2763024) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton "but with the feeling enhanced if the achiever happens also to share the nationality" No, don't get that Is it true that many current European countries did not actually exist as political entities until relevantly recently? L in C |
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09 Nov 09 - 06:16 PM (#2763078) Subject: RE: England My England From: GUEST,Allan Connochie "No don't get that" But for instance just about everyone in Scotland loves to see a great sporting achievement at the Olympics, but it is 'certainly for most people' extra special if it is a British achievement and doubly extra special if it is a Scot. Do you think English people enjoyed joining in with the achievement Germany had in winning a World Cup just as much as they enjoyed watching the English team win it? I don't get why other achievements should be any different from sporting achievements. People like to see their own people succeeding - whether it is their town, region, country or whatever. |
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09 Nov 09 - 10:14 PM (#2763180) Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion Absolutely, A.C. If you don't get it, L in C, as I said b4, then you don't. Can only, as have also remarked previously, speak for way my own [& Allan's & those of some others] reactions work. A gut thing, like I say... |
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10 Nov 09 - 03:38 AM (#2763239) Subject: RE: England My England From: theleveller "Considerable all — but in same league as Bach or Mozart? " I didn't realise that it was a competition. |
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10 Nov 09 - 04:08 AM (#2763251) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton These last few posts are particularly interesting, not least because they are polite and thoughtful. Good point about sports teams and our support for them. Great to see the international rainbow alliance of footballers in "English" teams doing so well in European football and bringing world class football to England. "I don't get why other achievements should be any different from sporting achievements" British teams? Are the Scots pleased when somebody else beats England? Yes, quite a lot are very pleased. I would keep clear of sporting analogies some events (Man U v Liverpool) can be very, very unpleasant. "People like to see their own people succeeding" This is at the nub of this issue. I think I want to enjoy anybody's success if I can and as DeG and others have pointed out most of us have relations from from many, many countries. Music, for one, is a cooperative event for the performers, most of the time. As for the audience, it either touches you or it doesn't. That's it really. If you have to consider the nationality of the performers or the origin of the music before you know if you like it I suggest that, in that situation, you are not being touched in the same way that many of us are. Best wishes L in C |
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10 Nov 09 - 04:13 AM (#2763255) Subject: RE: England My England From: MGM·Lion The maintenance of decent critical standards doesn't necessarily imply 'competition' in any meaningful sense — or are you trying, Leveller [& is this why you adopted that name?] to bring us back to that dreary plateau where nothing is allowed to be considered 'superior' to anything else; so that the pulp-beat·em·up-thrillers of Hank Janson [let's say] are 'as good as' the plays of Shakespeare or the novels of George Eliot or Jane Austen or Trollope or Dickens or Balzac? That's one of the most stupidly irritating manifestations of a kind of relativist egalitarian PC fatuity, unworthy of a person of [what I take to be] your intelligence. Honestly, now, do you really think it unacceptable to say that some writers write better, or some composers compose better, or for that matter some cricketers bat better, than others? So that schools have to have nothing but mixed-ability sets [tho I can't recall hearing of one with a mixed-ability football team]. Because that's where idiotic statements like your last post are leading, mate. |
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10 Nov 09 - 04:28 AM (#2763257) Subject: RE: England My England From: GUEST Heritage versus nostalgia eh? My childhood included singing "He who would valiant be" at school assemblies, then donning pads and hitting leather with willow, hazy afternoons on the pavillion blah blah blah. yes, but a hankering of what was is not a comfort for the now. Unless you retract into your head and pretend it is. And that way leads to other problems... I was told to be proud to be English, and I was also told to be proud to be British. Either way, becoming an adult and realising how and why our nation is historically rich is a bit of a wake up call. Proud? No, not really. But that's how it is and you cannot change history. Other countries have people waving flags and being nationalistic, but up until recently the English way was to be more understated. And that's how it should be. Quietly ruing the shame of our ancestors whilst getting on with life. Such pathetic propaganda as the original poem in this post does work unfortunately. Look at us all debating it! |
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10 Nov 09 - 04:35 AM (#2763263) Subject: RE: England My England From: allanc "Scots supporting British teams" I'd say the vast majority of Scots support any English competitor in sport against a foreign opponent and likewise with club football teams when they are playing foreign opposition. The exceptions being the English national football and rugby teams. I have an English wife and it of course irritates her somewhat that I don't actively support England when they are playing but the reason for that is the local derby thing involved and the fact that in both rugby and football they are the oldest rivalries in the world and one of the most intense. Admittedly in modern times the English may have lost that intensity in regard to the football rivalry as the likes of Germany and Argentina became bigger fish to fry, but it still exists in Scotland. Asking a Scot to support England is akin to asking a Rangers fan to support Celtic or vice-versa. Most probably won't do it. I've seen people say to their English friends "oh yes I hope they win" in order not to offend them but then sit down with big cheesy smiles when the other team scores. So basically when you see these polls saying lots of Scots would support England I'd take them with a pinch of salt. What people say they would do and what they actively do can be different things. Of course in regard to this thread Sootland and England are completely seperate concepts in the football world. Scots tend to naturally enjoy Scottish victories and vice-versa for the English. |
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10 Nov 09 - 04:41 AM (#2763267) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton People who write books or compose music are simply doing that. They generally do it to the best of their creative ability, but surely it's not like a sporting competition is it? Most of the football in the world is mixed ability football. Go down the parks of the world and you will see millions of people playing football for the joy of it. few egos, no pay, few baying violent supporters and they are often parents. So what? No I don't know either. As for the best music I can miss-quote Carl Sagan "I don't hear music or think about what people are and what they do with my guts i use my brain - my emotions" Keep calm L in C |
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10 Nov 09 - 04:48 AM (#2763270) Subject: RE: England My England From: WalkaboutsVerse Not that long ago, club football was mostly-locals in MEANINGFUL competition... Poem 98 of 230: REREGULATE One Premier world-eleven v. Another such company, Or wage-caps and say half each-club's squad From the local-junior pod? And, perhaps, heed the cricket-fan's call To convert to county-football..? From http://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse (e-book) Or http://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com (e-scroll) (C) David Franks 2003 |
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10 Nov 09 - 05:49 AM (#2763297) Subject: RE: England My England From: Jack Blandiver How about some regulation to the effect that if WAV posts outside his little box it must be with original thoughts rather than this sort of relentless spamming complete with links to his life's work? If you've got something MEANINGFUL to add to the discussion, WAV, by all means add it, but don't use these threads as a further opportunity to promote your meaningless xenophobic fascistic drivel which only serves to demonstrate how little you understand the culture you're so desperately trying to become a part of. You won't do that by miring yourself in half-baked observations you made six years ago! Besides which - football is still mostly about locals engaging in meaningful (?) competition. As I've said elsewhere, check out your local leagues, get involved as a supporter, and remember: the first ever world cup was won by a miners' team fielded by West Auckland in 1910!
If you don't like his poetry, leave him alone. This self-righteous mob harassing WAV and others, is an embarrassment to Mudcat. I must note, however, that WAV has posted this same "poem" six times at Mudcat, and people are certainly justified in thinking this may be a bit much. Since I am of an age where people often accuse me of repeating myself, I cannot find it in myself to judge WAV too harshly on this. WAV may be just another prattling old man, not unlike myself. I see no reason to react quite so strongly to his prattling. -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator- |
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10 Nov 09 - 06:03 AM (#2763303) Subject: RE: England My England From: WalkaboutsVerse Firstly, S., if you read the posts just above, you'll see that my poem IS relevant to the discussion. Secondly, "Fascist" derives from a dictatorial Italian party opposed to communism; I am pro-democracy and have repeatedly criticised capitalism; there is no racism or fascism in my above poem, nor the rest of my life's work. Thirdly, it is you, NOT I, who has mentioned, on mudcat, having FRIENDS who make racist jokes at the pub, and referred to a recorder, made in Japan, as an "Engrish frute". |
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10 Nov 09 - 06:14 AM (#2763305) Subject: RE: England My England From: GUEST WAV you have posted three "poems" one on the Remembrance Day thread that is xenophobic; one on the Divorce Fair thread that is Homophobic, and one on this thread that is bizarre and mildly xenophobic. Why? Stu sans cookie |
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10 Nov 09 - 06:28 AM (#2763312) Subject: RE: England My England From: Jack Blandiver Once again, WAV - I criticise your published work, and you retaliate with irrelevant personal sniping. Suggest you modify your approach somewhat. |
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10 Nov 09 - 08:51 AM (#2763378) Subject: RE: England My England From: Folk Form # 1 The English, The English, The English are best, I wouldn't give tu'pence for all the rest. - Flanders and Swann Not my sentiments, by the way. |
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10 Nov 09 - 11:46 AM (#2763494) Subject: RE: England My England From: alanabit I am very surprised to see this thread is still running. I wonder how many posts a good poem would have attracted? |
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10 Nov 09 - 12:12 PM (#2763514) Subject: RE: England My England From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) I don't get the back and forth about: 'why are you proud?' V's 'why are not not proud?' - my feeling is 'why should I care if you're proud or not?' and 'why would you care if I am proud or I am not?'. There's no right or wrong in the matter, it's an emotional response based on triggers which either connect for you or don't. I agree with MattM, I'm sure those inspiring ancestors we might genuinely harbour respect for, were not wasting their time wallowing in how brilliant it/other people used to be, but were getting on with the job of sorting out stuff they thought needed sorting out *here and now*.. Like maybe writing plays, or preserving rare Buzzards or discovering brilliant science stuff, or something. Probably all of it in fact, which is no doubt why they don't post here.. ;-) Most unfortunately, I think that the "contribution" the vast bulk of nationalists who bray so loudly about Eng-er-land-ah and the foreigners and commies who magically stole it away somehow, is in fact to add a Minus Point to the collective value of this country's worthier historic and cultural achievements. Otherwise yes to Diane: Byrd et al over Mozart et al for me too, ta. |
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10 Nov 09 - 12:56 PM (#2763555) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton The fact that I think we must have said everything their is to say, many times, sometimes with grace and sometimes without should not stop anybody keeping on keeping on L in C 300? or too late |
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10 Nov 09 - 12:57 PM (#2763556) Subject: RE: England My England From: The Sandman there not their. |
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10 Nov 09 - 12:58 PM (#2763557) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton And no, I am not proud of that silly 300 stroke L in C |
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10 Nov 09 - 12:59 PM (#2763558) Subject: RE: England My England From: Les in Chorlton Thanks Soldier never sure which one to go for L in C |
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10 Nov 09 - 01:03 PM (#2763561) Subject: RE: England My England From: The Sandman Previous Edition: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 Previous editions Ireland:Plenty of bright and sunny spells Plenty of bright and sunny spells » FRONT IRELAND SPORT WORLD BUSINESS OPINION Email+ Email+ Email+ Share+ Court told 'unnaturally loud' sex was hell for neighbours By Rod Minchin Tuesday, November 10, 2009 A BRITISH couple's nightly sex sessions were so loud they made their neighbours' lives hell, a court has heard. Caroline and Steve Cart-wright's lovemaking was described as "murder" and "unnatural" and drowned out their neighbours' televisions. But it was not just the neighbours who were up in arms about the noise coming from their terraced house on Tyne and Wear – even the local postman and a woman who walked past the house taking her child to school complained. A judge at Newcastle Crown Court even listened to a 10-minute recording of the romps, recorded over a five-day period last August. Neighbours said the sex sessions would usually start at about midnight and last for two or three hours, every night of the week. Ms Cartwright is appealing her conviction for breaching a noise abatement notice that banned the couple from "shouting, screaming or vocalisation at such a level as to be a statutory nuisance". She is using article 8 of the Human Rights Act to argue that she has a right to "respect for her private and family life". Next-door neighbourRachel O'Connor said she was frequently late for work because she had overslept, having been awake most of the night due to the noise. "It is not very pleasant living there and it has been quite stressful," she told the court. "The noise sounds like they are both in considerable pain. I cannot describe the noise. Totally excessive and I have never ever heard anything like it. I put my telly in my bedroom on as loud as it could go and they drown it out." Giving evidence, Ms Cartwright, 48, who is unemployed, said she was unable to control the noise she made during sex and it was not "on purpose". She said the stress of the complaints made her turn to drink and she was now on antidepressants. "After I got the noise abatement notice I tried to control it. I even tried to use a pillow [over my face] to try and lessen the noise," she said. "I wasn't enjoying it so I started to cry and my husband said, 'If you want to make a noise, make a noise.' "I did not understand why people asked me to be quiet because to me it is normal." She said she "tried to minimise the situation by having sex in the morning" so the noise was "not waking anybody". The hearing was adjourned until today. This story appeared in the printed version of the Irish Examiner Tuesday, November 10, 2009 Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2009/1110/ireland/court-told-unnaturally-loud-sex-was-hell-for-neighbours-105251.html#ixzz0WTqQTzKa |
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10 Nov 09 - 01:23 PM (#2763573) Subject: RE: England My England From: GUEST,matt milton Now that's the kind of insightful and penetrating (pun intended) journalism that makes me proud to be British! |
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10 Nov 09 - 03:09 PM (#2763642) Subject: RE: England My England From: Jack Blandiver Sorry, but I don't see Walkaboutsverse as the person needing regulation. If you find him disagreeable, leave him alone. We prohibit personal attacks, not distasteful thinking. It appears that you are far closer to being in violation of Mudcat rules than he is. The fact that a sizable mob at Mudcat has been treating WAV as a scapegoat for a considerable length of time, is no justification for the the continuation of this harassment. If you don't like his poetry, leave him alone. This self-righteous mob harassing WAV and others, is an embarrassment to Mudcat. -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator- I don't find Walkaboutsverse personally disagreeable, rather I take issue with his published ideology. There is a world of difference. I criticise his published work - he retaliates with personal attacks. It is this sort of self-righteous moderation that is an embarrassment to mudcat, Joe - not the defence of the fundamental liberties of English culture which Walkaboutsverse so resolutely opposes and publicises in his published work. And I am one individual, not a mob. |
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10 Nov 09 - 03:53 PM (#2763678) Subject: RE: England My England From: Joe Offer Wrong. You are part of a mob that has been attacking and ridiculing WAV for a very long time. You and the mob personalize your attacks, instead of refuting the ideas he expresses. I agree that his thinking is repugnant, and I agree with civil attempts to refute what he says. What you label as "personal attacks" from WAV, seem to me to be quite civil responses. Read this message you posted aloud, and then tell me why I shouldn't think it is a personal attack:
And the same thing goes in the BNP threads - we do not allow personal attacks, even from those whose cause is righteous. We DO allow the free expression of ideas, even though those ideas may be repugnant. -Joe Offer- |
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10 Nov 09 - 04:28 PM (#2763700) Subject: RE: England My England From: Jack Blandiver If people post racist and fascist crap - as WAV does consistently - then I will tell indeed them to fuck off with their inhuman and inhumane ideology. I can assure you, there is nothing personal in this, unlike WAV's so-called civil responses which, bizarrely, you find so acceptable. |
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10 Nov 09 - 04:55 PM (#2763719) Subject: RE: England My England From: Joe Offer Yeah, I suppose that if somebody says "kiss my ass" a time or two and doesn't carry on extended combat, I'm not going to like it - but I'm not going to bother with it. What does the greatest harm at Mudcat is extended combat, particularly the ganging up on people the Mudcat Mob deems unacceptable. When I see extended combat or bullying, I'm going to put a stop to it, no matter how "righteous" the cause of those who are doing the bullying. -Joe Offer- And Suibhne O'Piobaireachd, to be sure you understand me correctly, let me say this: if you continue to tell people to fuck off, I will ensure that you won't. In this forum, that is not considered "civil conduct." And neither is "kiss my ass." Those are known as 'fighting words,' and we're not going to allow them here. If they're said once and that's the end of it - well, we're not going to bother with that penny-ante kind of stuff. If it's something that's continued, then we're bound to put a stop to it. |
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10 Nov 09 - 05:56 PM (#2763759) Subject: and furthermore..... From: Joe Offer People complain that moderation at Mudcat is inconsistent, and I'm getting really tired of that allegation because it's simply untrue. While our moderation may be inconsistent with your standards, it is completely consistent with ours. We do not edit out unacceptable speech. That is not our job. Our job is only to keep the peace, and to use the minimal moderation to accomplish that. So, if somebody posts something that doesn't cause an uproar, We're not going to deal with it unless Mick or I receive a specific complaint about that specific post (and sometimes, as Suibhne O'Piobaireachd learned today, we may not agree with the complainer). But if there's an uproar, even if the uproar fits all your standards of righteousness, we're going to put a stop to it. No matter what the Mudcat Mob may think, Mudcat's standards of righteousness do not allow anyone or any group to beat up on any individual, no matter how unacceptable that person's ideas may be. So, don't beat up on people, even if they're wrong. Refuting their ideas is strongly encouraged. -Joe-
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