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04 Dec 09 - 05:58 PM (#2780894) Subject: BS: 'Faux Irishman' Pat O'Brien From: GUEST,mg This was brought up in an obituary thread about Pat O'Brien. I think it is insulting to Irish-Americans to be called faux Irish. I am sure some of my relatives and ancestors would meet the definition. Real Irish-Americans are not faux anything. They surmounted unspeakable hardships...at least some..many...they are constantly ridiculed for many things, especially their love of some kinds of music. It is nevertheless real to them and to me. mg |
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04 Dec 09 - 06:00 PM (#2780897) Subject: RE: BS: 'Faux Irishman' Pat O'Brien From: gnu Yup. Been there. Been pissed off. Five generations. We are still proud of our Irish Heritage. |
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04 Dec 09 - 06:16 PM (#2780911) Subject: RE: BS: 'Faux Irishman' Pat O'Brien From: Rapparee And I'm proud that some of my ancestors pillaged and burned Ireland. What annoys me is that I'm not Dutch, not German, but American (USian) of German/Dutch descent. My relatives have fought on the US side in every ware from the dust-up with Blackhawk until right now. Some of them may well have fought against those Damn'd Colonials as Hessian troops. My wife's Irish grandfather came here in 1898. She's proud of her Irish lineage, as was her father (WW2: Normandy, the Bulge...). Heck, I know a piper who is Canadian-Chinese -- his family tartan is a golden dragon on red silk. He lives in Indiana. Pride in heritage...yes, surely. The Germans, the Irish, the Swedes, the Ukranians...everyone went to make the US and Canada the great countries they are and every one was a minority (and an oppressed one). Our ancestors made us what we are. |
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04 Dec 09 - 06:27 PM (#2780923) Subject: RE: BS: 'Faux Irishman' Pat O'Brien From: artbrooks Actually, it was the Liam Clancy obit. I really can't place the "Pat O'Brien" to whom Guest: TJ in San Diego referred. The only "Hollywood Pat O'Brien" that Google comes up with was an actor of Irish descent - and (as far as I can remember from the movies listed in Wiki) he wasn't a singer particularly. Oh well, it makes a good story, anyway, and complaining about it, considering the circumstances is, IHMO, inappropriate. |
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04 Dec 09 - 06:30 PM (#2780925) Subject: RE: BS: 'Faux Irishman' Pat O'Brien From: michaelr "Faux-Irish" may well be a bit insulting - I might get a wee bit miffed if I was called that. Pride in one's heritage doesn't make much sense, however. The great George Carlin had a rap about this; he said something to the effect of "Why would you be proud to be Irish? It's an accident, not an achievement. Might as well be proud of having brown eyes, or type A blood." |
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04 Dec 09 - 06:59 PM (#2780944) Subject: RE: BS: 'Faux Irishman' Pat O'Brien From: Rapparee Well, I AM proud of having blue eyes and A+ blood.... |
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04 Dec 09 - 07:08 PM (#2780955) Subject: RE: BS: 'Faux Irishman' Pat O'Brien From: Amos You have to realize with whom you are dealing, sir; Rapaire is proud of anything he may claim, and if he cannot, he will be prooud of not having it to claim. That's how he roll. A |
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04 Dec 09 - 09:45 PM (#2781027) Subject: RE: BS: 'Faux Irishman' Pat O'Brien From: artbrooks Amos, you have to realize that he is a librarian - so he gets to claim as his anything that has ever gotten into print. Hummmm...I guess that includes the Divine Sarah - not Bernhardt, the other one. |
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05 Dec 09 - 04:29 AM (#2781152) Subject: RE: BS: 'Faux Irishman' Pat O'Brien From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Do you get any actual 'Irish-Americans' now? My London-Irish family used to be all of Irish stock - as the original immigrant communities (the 1950's wave I'm speaking of) would tend to stick together. But later generations get married & have kids with folk outside of the old Irish immigrant communities. Properly speaking I'm Anglo-Irish, but as everyone I know has some Celtic ancestry or Jewish or something - as far as I or anyone else am concerned I'm English. To me 'faux Irish' would probably mean someone like me pretending to actually *be* Irish, rather than someone with a keen interest in their Irish ancestry. |
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05 Dec 09 - 07:22 AM (#2781209) Subject: RE: BS: 'Faux Irishman' Pat O'Brien From: artbrooks There are significant Irish enclaves in the US, of course, and I read somewhere that the Irish are either 3d or 4th in the number of undocumented immigrants. |
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05 Dec 09 - 08:41 AM (#2781246) Subject: RE: BS: 'Faux Irishman' Pat O'Brien From: Amergin Rap is a faux USian....he is really a Canadian, who prays to god every night to become a USian, because he is jealous of our wonderful health care system...and our beardless women.... |
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05 Dec 09 - 12:58 PM (#2781394) Subject: RE: BS: 'Faux Irishman' Pat O'Brien From: wysiwyg If anyone would like to donate some Irish-American lore to the multultural film/music library I'm working on for a social-change adult-ed curriculum, please PM. The budget is non-existent and a great PBS series I was trying to record... didn't record. I have zero "Irish" on my film shelf, and a Fall program where it would be used well. ~Susan |
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05 Dec 09 - 01:18 PM (#2781404) Subject: RE: BS: 'Faux Irishman' Pat O'Brien From: dick greenhaus For an interesting (and insightful)look at the situation, try to get your hands on a Joseph Mitchell essay "Back to where I never was." |
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05 Dec 09 - 04:04 PM (#2781527) Subject: RE: BS: 'Faux Irishman' Pat O'Brien From: wysiwyg Got nuffin off Google, Dick. Dial it in? ~S~ |
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05 Dec 09 - 04:24 PM (#2781542) Subject: RE: BS: 'Faux Irishman' Pat O'Brien From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Actually, didn't we have this virtual same discussion a few months ago or so? About all the kitch 'Plastic Paddy' stylee theme pubs? |
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05 Dec 09 - 06:59 PM (#2781672) Subject: RE: BS: 'Faux Irishman' Pat O'Brien From: gnu Hmmmm.... perhaps it is a gray area? I am not Irish. I am not even Irish Canadian. My father side of the family is where my Irish Heritage lies... the music, the humour, the culture. I see nothing wrong with being proud of my heritage. I have used the term Irish to describe myself many times. It's usage often, to many, immediately conjures up a stereotype. Perhaps this is wrong? An example : 285 pounds of pissed off Irish. That immediately, to me, conveys the stereotypical "ready to fight if need be". If that's wrong, perhaps The University of Notre Dame should retire it's mascot. Hmmmm... |
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05 Dec 09 - 08:47 PM (#2781745) Subject: RE: BS: 'Faux Irishman' Pat O'Brien From: Jack Campin Did the Pat O'Brien this hread is named after actually exist? |
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06 Dec 09 - 01:01 PM (#2782177) Subject: ADD Version: Pat O'Brien From: Jim Carroll "Did the Pat O'Brien this thread is named after actually exist?" This feller maybe - probably not! From Tom Lenihan of Miltown Malbay, Co. Clare Jim Carroll PAT O'BRIEN 1 This young man's name was Pat O'Brien, a carpenter by trade, Both day and night he took delight in courting this fair maid. She was young and innocent and always to the fore, Oh, but little was her notion that he'd prove her overthrow. 2 She wrote to him a love letter and an answer to it came; Saying: 'Nancy, lovely Nancy, oh, I hope you'll not me blame, For I've been working all this time and could not see you o'er, But I hope to have your company this evening at the grove,' 3 When she read those few lines they enticed her for to go, She dressed herself in private, oh, I mean to let you know. The night was bright with the moonlight which caused her for to go; But little was her notion that she never would come back home. 4 When he saw her coming, it was then he went to hide. The words he said unto himself: 'You'll never be my bride For I have heard for certain that you have me deceived And this very night, to take your life, a butcher I will be.' 5 It was then he stepped up to her and then his colour changed. She said: 'Patsy, lovely Patsy, oh what makes you look so pale?' I want no talk at all from you, but kneel down there and pray, For there is not a woman breathing will never deceive me.' 6 He caught her by the yellow locks and drew her to the ground. 'Twas with a knife he stabbed her, oh, and gave her the deadly wound. Her last dying words was: 'Pat O'Brien, you do not feel the pain!' And 'twas with a spade he made her grave and then went home by train. 7 This girl was but three days buried, to her mother she did appear. The mother spoke to her, oh, without a dread or fear. She says: 'Mother, loving mother, you'll never see me more For Pat O'Brien has murdered me and laid me in my gore. 8 'Go down to that old, old grove, be sure make no delay, There you'll find my body buried, oh, and covered with the clay. You'll find the blood spilled on the spot—the place he murdered me— So go and get him taken and hung he'll be surely.' 9 The night before his trial came on to him she did appear With her baby in her arms, oh, which filled his heart with fear. She says: "Tis often times you vowed to me that I would be your bride. On the gallows high you now will die for taking away my life.' Laws P 39. IFC TM 81/A/l. August 19th 1972. On some occasions Tom said he had learned it from his father, other times he recalled having learned it from his mother. At any rate he was always certain that the song was in the family for a very long time. 5.4 lapsus linguae, for 'never' read 'ever'. In spite of the popularity of this song in oral tradition it has seldom appeared in anthologies. It is a classic of the type of murder ballads which emanated from the popular broadsheet presses of the 19th century. Although the geographical location of the action varies considerably it is frequently referred to as 'The Sligo Murder Ballad'. Tom's text is more genteel than most in that the line (6.4) which ends with 'and then went home by train.' is usually rendered '. . . and then dashed out her brains..' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk0HCAFrH9U |
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06 Dec 09 - 02:06 PM (#2782222) Subject: RE: BS: 'Faux Irishman' Pat O'Brien From: Mrrzy Liam died???!? |