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12 Dec 09 - 04:46 AM (#2786729) Subject: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: VirginiaTam Thinking about getting a light box that simulates dawn to combat how bad I feel in the winter months. But they are so expensive I don't want to invest before doing some research among other users. Not sure if this is relevant, but I have problems sleeping at any season, usually waking between 2 to 5 times a night between 11pm and 7am. Typically stay up for 15 minutes to an hour for each of these wakings. Needless to say, I find myself getting fairly drowsy at work in the afternoon. Even after 6+ years here in UK, I have not acclimated to the 4:30pm dark. All my life in Virginia I had extra hour of light in the winter. Also have to say that I now dread the reduction of daylight hours so that I start feeling low before the clocks change in October. Does anyone here use a light box? Does it help? |
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12 Dec 09 - 05:13 AM (#2786739) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: Mr Red I bought an alarm clock/light for a partner and she thought is was wonderful for a week. Then she decided she really wanted to sleep all day and declared it a nuisance. I found the two I have had to be the best way to wake. You get up refreshed and prepared. It progressively brightens to full and then sounds the alarm You can set it to progressively dim at bedtime. The second one was American and it has gone wrong - it was pretty complicated. However the concept is right. But I don't suffer from SAD (AFAIK). The daylight boxes are harder to use because you have to sit in front of them for an hour or so. And the best time to use those is mid-day. If you can get a good dose of mid-day daylight you will benefit because even normal winter daylight is infinitely stronger than just about anything you can plug-in. The mid-day sun (even behind cloud) re-sets the diurnal body clock and replensishes the seratonin levels which are implicated in sleep and depression problems. The clocks are about £50 - I saw one in John Lewis the other day. I bought mine from "Outside In" who sell Light boxes and dinky little "eye shades" that beam light onto whatever you are reading and the eye picks-up the strong signal without blinding others (like with air travel). Not sure how effective they are but they seem to have benefit as reading torches. here's one web page I found |
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12 Dec 09 - 08:10 AM (#2786812) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: wysiwyg :~) See recent thread-refreshed stuff. Filter-search SAD; setting time to 14 days oughtta catch it. I'll be thinkin' of ya, friend. ~Susan |
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12 Dec 09 - 08:13 AM (#2786813) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: Wolfhound person I got an alarm clock from www.lumie.com for much less than 50 pounds by buying one with a scratch on, and no radio or anything. It works for me a treat. I've got a big light box (try on ebay for both items)for really dull days, but since I've had the clock I've hardly needed it. Paws |
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12 Dec 09 - 08:27 AM (#2786816) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: VirginiaTam Susan I did the filter SAD and seasonal affective disorder and I set the age to All. Got nothing. Hope you feel better soon. Thanks others for the suggestions. Still shopping. |
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12 Dec 09 - 08:30 AM (#2786817) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: wysiwyg OK: http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=87840&messages=65 ~S~ |
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12 Dec 09 - 08:50 AM (#2786827) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: Bobert Awwww, that stuff is all in yer head... B;~) |
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12 Dec 09 - 09:36 AM (#2786843) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: Bonzo3legs I just get on with it for christ's sake! |
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12 Dec 09 - 10:08 AM (#2786861) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: maeve SAD link The lights don't have to be used in a rigid way. I have used mine as a worklight for early morning tasks. I also use lots of full spectrum bulbs when we can afford them, for light fixtures all around the house. Good nutrition and the right supplements for your body's needs make a big difference. Feel free to send a PM, Tam. maeve |
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12 Dec 09 - 10:12 AM (#2786864) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: frogprince Any data on the comparative value of time with a light box versus using full-spectrum lights throughout the house? |
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12 Dec 09 - 10:38 AM (#2786882) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: VirginiaTam I get on with it too. I just don't want to feel so shite, while I am gettin on. I was raised by a 27 year US Army sergeant whose family were all Quakers. I've got gettin on with it by the sackful. It is just getting harder with age, illness and grief. I wanna feel better without chemicals, which is all the doctor will do for me. I eat truckloads of fresh fruit and raw veg daily, drink lots of water and take folic acid supplement every other day. Also glass of Welch's purple grape juice daily which is supposed to have the highest antioxidant content of off the shelf juices. Super high fiber muesli and fat free yogurt with fresh blueberries every morning. Lunch is all fresh fruit and raw veg and a bit of protein (roast chicken or cheddar or tuna). Think I am ok on vitamins and I get them nauturally in fresh food. And thanks for the link to other thread. Now upon reading, wonder if SADs is what i am suffering? I know I don't like the fewer hours of sunlight. I consciously don't like it A LOT! But is it just age, illness and grief making me more cranky than usual? Will the light help? Am I willing to invest 50 quid to find out? It is fucking dark in my lounge right now and it is only 3:30pm. Godddammitallanyway. |
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12 Dec 09 - 10:40 AM (#2786883) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: GUEST,leeneia Hi, Virginia. You wrote "Thinking about getting a light box that simulates dawn to combat how bad I feel in the winter months." There are so many reasons why a person might feel bad. Some problem might be causing you not to sleep. Solve the problem, and sleep will come. Or it could be turned around, and lack of sleep might be causing you to have problems. I know one thing for sure - if there's a problem like this which is long-term, hard to diagnose, and not immediately life-threatening, then there are any number of people ready to sell you some over-priced, unproven remedy, usually at a high price. Here's a true story from me. When I was in my 40's, I used to wake up miserable every morning. Body hurting and brain cloaked in gritty, gray fog. When the alarm went off, I would sit on the edge of the bed, rocking back and forth in misery. So what caused it? Was it mental illness, secret hatred for my husband or job, eating non-organic foods? No,it was that one of the openings inside my nose was so tiny it did not take in air. As the doctor explained, when we sleep, the two holes inside our noses 'take turns.' We breathe through one for 20 minutes while the other closes with a little flap. Then we roll over, change holes and breath with the other. Since I could not breathe with one of them, I never rolled over - never changed position - all night long. Naturally, I woke up with muscles tired and hurting. A good doctor diagnosed the problem, I had a simple operation, and I felt much better right away. |
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12 Dec 09 - 10:59 AM (#2786892) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: VirginiaTam Can't solve the problem of waking. I wake with palpitations not in my chest but in my head and neck and feel as though I am going to throw up. But it isn't nausea. I can hear and see the palpitations. Throbbing heartbeat and strobing light. Bit of vertigo. Hard to describe. Heart specialist did a 24 hour EKG and stress EKG and found nothing wrong. GP said reflux and prescribed meds that gave me horrendous headache. I don't have reflux. I have had in past and know what it feels like and this is not it. This has been going on since last February when I was starting to recover from 3 month long flu, then cold then chest infection. Blood pressure is not high on normal testing. But last Feb had one night when it was so high they put me in observation at hospital. If I lay completely off chocolate and go easy on coffee it gets a bit better, which makes me think blood pressure. I cannot have salt at all. But the GP says blood pressure is ok for woman my age and weight. I feel I cannot say anything, make any complaints to doctors now because they say nothing is wrong. Arthritis nurse found osteo arthritis in my cervical spine and thinks this is putting pressure on an artery thereby causing all the symptoms above. Nothing can be done for it. I have a very thin memory foam pillow so my neck doesn't hurt so much anymore. Now looking for natural ways to boost my mood. |
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12 Dec 09 - 10:59 AM (#2786893) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: Bonzo3legs Mmmmm glasses half empty!! |
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12 Dec 09 - 11:16 AM (#2786901) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: theleveller Why not ask them to put daylight bulbs into the lights at work? It made a big difference to quite a few people when they did it at my office. |
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12 Dec 09 - 11:29 AM (#2786905) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: maeve I want to think about what you've described, Tam. You have a lot of symptoms; some of which are familiar to me. There are some medical links I want to search for, slso. maeve |
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12 Dec 09 - 12:11 PM (#2786939) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: wysiwyg Tam, more sunlight (real or faux) should not hurt anything that is going on, and may make it much easier for the medicos to see the rest of it clearly. If SAD is a reality for you, you'll want to do something about that as soon as you can, so that you can think most clearly about any other issues that may also be present. Think of SAD lights not as one more cure for one more ill to diagnose and treat, but just as another necessary stay-well item. And yes, SAD can intensify with age because it saps your best at a time when other aches and pains may make your best harder to achieve to begin with. I wouldn't start with an expensive lightbox though, and if you look at the older thread you'll see many less-expensive approaches may of us took, plus the specs to look for when shopping for any full-spectrum lighting item. Just start by getting an inexpensive bulb for the place where you sit most. ~S~ |
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12 Dec 09 - 12:56 PM (#2786970) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: Mavis Enderby VT - it's not just caffeine is it? The palpitations you describe are similar to what I've had in the past due to too much tea or coffee (or dark chocolate). I only drink decaffeinated after dark now and generally I'm OK. Pete. |
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12 Dec 09 - 01:04 PM (#2786974) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: maeve Burton Coggles/Pete- Are your palpitations as VT described? "I wake with palpitations not in my chest but in my head and neck and feel as though I am going to throw up. But it isn't nausea. I can hear and see the palpitations. Throbbing heartbeat and strobing light. Bit of vertigo. Hard to describe." That descriptions makes me think of some of my migraines. maeve |
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12 Dec 09 - 01:16 PM (#2786979) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: VirginiaTam Hard to tell about the chocolate and coffee. I have at most 2 cups coffee a day on weekdays only. One on weekends. I'll have earl grey if I have had only one coffee. Chocolate tiny bit about once a month now just for a taste. Really proud of myself on that score. I know I have had really bad episodes after eating out (usually Italian) or getting Chinese or Indian takeaway. It is the salt in the food. So when we do takeaway I cut the fun stuff with a lot of plain boiled rice, which is tragic. Thanks Susan and Maeve. I will read up on the light spectrum stuff. Can't change the work lights at all. They are vitamin D zapping fluorescent lights. Leenia - that not getting enough oxygen thing sounds scary and may just be the thing. I often get stuffy sinus when in bed and my muscles hurt when I wake. Feels like hangover or coming down with the flu every morning. I thought it was just exhaustion from not sleeping. But maybe I am not sleeping because I don't get enough oxygen. I have been so awful to TSO today. Stroppy mood all day long and I want it to stop. It has to stop before my daughter gets here for Christmas visit. |
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12 Dec 09 - 01:20 PM (#2786982) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: s&r Sounds like it could be sleep apneoa? STU |
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12 Dec 09 - 01:58 PM (#2786997) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: LilyFestre Just a thought....have you checked your blood glucose levels lately? When I have a low blood sugar, I have some of the same symptoms you describe. Coffee/caffeine can drop you blood sugar levels in a hurry which might explain why you do better when you don't have the coffee or chocolate....just a thought. I hope you are feeling better soon! Michelle |
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12 Dec 09 - 02:25 PM (#2787007) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: Ed T I used to havea winter weather syndrom of some type. Blood work inducated an underactive thyroid gland....thyroid pills fixed much of it ....but not all...for me. |
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12 Dec 09 - 03:38 PM (#2787040) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: Mavis Enderby VT/Maeve - it was after drinking much more tea/coffee than you describe that I'd get similar symptoms. It was more the throbbing heartbeat that you can hear that made me think of it. It was different to migraine symptoms - fortunately I've not had one of those for many years. Just a thought - do you feel any better if you can get outside on a bright sunny winters day? I've found a bit of winter sunshine really lifts my spirits after lengthy periods where it doesn't seem to get light at all. If you can get outside in the bright weather it's even better. I hope you feel better soon Pete. |
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12 Dec 09 - 04:29 PM (#2787073) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: McGrath of Harlow It surprises me that we are inundated with "tanning centres" where you can drop in and brown off while giving yourself skin cancer - but there don't seem to be more benign equivalent "light box" rooms, which we can visit for an hour or so in the depths of winter and relax in bright surroundings, maybe reading the paper or listening to some music. They could be annexes to public libraries. Or pubs for that matter. "Fight SAD with a Happy Hour!!" |
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12 Dec 09 - 05:52 PM (#2787120) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: GUEST,eric the viking I've never liked the clocks changing. I don't mind the shorter day length, up here it doesn't get sun over the horizon until just gone 09.00 today and it went down, albeit with a beautiful sunset, 15.00 hrs. I tried a light box, it didn't work for me. My sad was really a huge change of lifestyle and dropping over the winter horizon.In my head I am fine and I'm sure that has more to do with it. I just wish the clocks didn't change and my body rhythm could stay the same. For me it's a double whammy. I have kidney disease and need vitamin D. Without sunlight my body doesn't produce it so well as I need good sunlight to produce it. So I'm a bit stuck. We should have moved to the south, not the north. In some respects, I actually enjoy the "squirrel aspect" of winter . but love the cold, bright days. Stand in as much outside light as possible may help. We walk miles when the sun is up. |
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12 Dec 09 - 06:12 PM (#2787141) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Tam, take Oysters, three times a day, before meals... The Oysterband :0) Then, go get some Fairy Lights and stick 'em up all around the house. To hell with the National Grid, blow it up! :0) When all the lights are on put Those Gorgeous Oysters on at FULL volume, sing along with them with that wonderful voice of yours, and dance! Andy will be around you loving it! And each evening, before you go to sleep, remember that your beloved Andy is never alone, but surrounded by many souls who love her, and she's surrounding you too. Much love. xx |
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13 Dec 09 - 04:11 AM (#2787274) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: VirginiaTam Lizzie, I think of Andie every night. I dreamed of her last night. She and her little sister were hit by a lorry (semi), because I was too busy doing something else and not paying attention to them. So this morning is scuppered by guilt and wretchedness. I don't know the Oyster Band. Had a listen and doesn't appeal but that may be my mood. I don't feel much like singing these days. Thanks for thinking of me anyway. Ed, I am on 75 micrograms of Levoxothyrine which doc says is enough. Funny before I was put on thyroid replacement decade ago, I was much thinner and fitter. I was just freezing cold and had headaches all the time. Since on the replacement I put on weight and in rotten mood quite often, still get headaches. I have always been something of an insomniac since childhood. I have very vivid dreams which I want to avoid. I used to walk and talk in my sleep up through my early 40s. I have awakened more than once still in PJs and sitting on either front or side porch with car keys in my hand. Don't think I have sleep apneoa because I don't fall asleep in mid activity. I get drowsy and then get up and move about to shake it off. I only snore when I have a head cold. I do feel oxygen deprived. I find myself suddenly in drawing deep breaths as though I have forgotten to breath. This happens during normal waking hours too. Also happened since childhood. And I cannot bear to have anything cover my face. Bed linens, scarves and even my hair have to be kept well away from nose and mouth. Though now in bitter cold weather, I have to warm the air through thin scarf before breathing in or my lungs burn like hell. This is only in the last 3 years or so. Maybe the swimming will help with this. TSO thinks I am exhausted and in bad mood because I am in constant pain with the RA. True I am in pain most of the time, but I can usually ignore it (thank god for good reading on Mudcat among other activities). And at the moment, inflammation is very low. Rheumatoid factor only 26 in November, last Feb it was 93. Just got to face it... my body and brain are fucked. And I am hypersensitive. But I am going to look into those spectrum bulbs and maybe some aroma therapy or ionizing bulbs and look for ways to produce endorphins and make conscious decision to count my blessings on a regular basis. McGrath - brilliant idea about the SAD therapy spas. You should start a charity, see if you can get a grant to get started. |
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13 Dec 09 - 07:24 AM (#2787319) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: maeve I know I've read of "light bars" and a search online for "SAD lirht therapy" yielded several links. Here is one of interest, although I wouldn't necessarily swallow all claims as it it=s a commercial rather than a medical sight. http://salonchannel.com/articles/light.htm It did remind me that one of the things I wanted to suggest is that you research the newest recommendations (Much higher than before) for levels of calcium, magnesium, phosphorus, and Vitamin D. Still thinking. maeve |
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13 Dec 09 - 07:43 AM (#2787332) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: maeve Here are another couple of links, Tam. Basic information- light therapy and this one is especially interesting regarding symptoms and the notion of spas offering light therapy http://www.dailywebtv.com/Hamilton/video/14252/Treating-S-A-D-through-Light-Therapy From that second link: "Women are more likely than men to be diagnosed with SAD. Symptoms often begin when a woman is in her 20s and get progressively worse. Candidates for light therapy will lack energy, decrease their activity level, crave carbs and therefore gain weight. They'll have trouble getting up in the morning and experience difficulties socially, wanting to withdraw from activities, becoming irritable and possibly suffering from severe anxiety attacks and heart palpitations. Symptoms must be experience for two consecutive winters to fit the SAD profile." |
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13 Dec 09 - 07:49 AM (#2787336) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: maeve One UK supplier of light therapy equipment http://www.sadbox.co.uk/ Another one here http://www.sad-lighthire.co.uk/ (look for information on hiring a lightbox.) Enough for now- still thinking. maeve |
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13 Dec 09 - 08:21 AM (#2787343) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: VirginiaTam Thanks Maeve bit worrying the bit about blue wave light boxes potentially contribute to macular degeneration. i am still thinking too. |
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13 Dec 09 - 11:58 AM (#2787435) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: wysiwyg You don't look INTO the light, you slat it across your field of vision. Tam, what you are describing is all probably adrenal exhaustion. Raging and/or ebbing cortisol levels (it's a cycle). Low-cortisol phase makes us shocky. Does anyone here have the file I've sent on that in the past? I'm not sure I can put my hands on it ASAP. PM if you have it please. Tam, the centerpiece of the treatment is supplements, most esp. PANTOTHENIC ACID. Big horse-sized pills of it, not the little dinky amount in "stress tabs" (or anything like that's more usually on the vitamin shelf). Cannot get the remediative amount via food, trust me. Look around local shops (bu phone!!!) for 400's at the cheapest price, and lay in a stock while I look for that doc. OK? Do that and so cheap SADlights and you can get yer whole life back. ~S~ |
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13 Dec 09 - 12:08 PM (#2787442) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: Bill D also....they are beginning to make the simple screw-in compact florescent bulbs in 'natural daylight' mode. I bought a package recently and put one in a lamp, and my son, who had no idea about it, walked past and said "I LIKE that light!" I now have 4 of them about the house and may get more. (They are not as 'comfortable' for some areas/uses, but they may help. I DO miss sunlight during prolonged gloomy days.) |
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13 Dec 09 - 12:24 PM (#2787448) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: wysiwyg They flicker. The fix is no to take them out, but put in more of them in the same area, in groups. Their individual flickers will cancel each other out, not to mention upping the total light which is good. All this, BTW, is in the prior thread. Thing is, SAD-sufferers cannot make sense out of it all till they get un-SAD. That's they the prior thread is aimed at people who love them, not the people who are stuck in it. Of course [giggly shrug], I'm only ten years ahead of everyone else here on it, but don't listen to ME. :~) Naw-- just visit my SAD-lit house for a weekend. (Your LR recliner and guest room have the first one we made, and the last one we bought-- waiting for you.) ~S~ |
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13 Dec 09 - 12:30 PM (#2787451) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: VirginiaTam shudder... Susan, you do know that my Andie died from a complication of adrenal dysfunction. I can barely swallow the tiny thyroid pills. How'm I gonna get great horse pills down? BillD can I get those in 40 watt screw in? And where in the UK? |
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13 Dec 09 - 12:31 PM (#2787453) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: Lizzie Cornish 1 "Just got to face it... my body and brain are fucked." Tam, you have one of the most light-giving brains on Mudcat, my Sweetheart. Your deep intelligence shines out, as does your love and anguish for your children. The light you need is already inside you. It's in so many words that you write. Please, when you get a moment, when it feels right, please write more about Andie in her thread...and about her sister too. That is such a very beautiful thread you started about her. xx |
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13 Dec 09 - 12:50 PM (#2787463) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: Lizzie Cornish 1 'The Reason For My Journey' by Charles James |
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13 Dec 09 - 02:53 PM (#2787535) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: wysiwyg I've PMed Tam. ~Susan |
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14 Dec 09 - 09:46 AM (#2788019) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: wysiwyg Here are the specs from the other thread: I've done a fair amount of research on this topic and have used full-spectrum lighting in my office for the last 5+ years. Daylight when passed through a prism reveals that it is made up of the variety of colors found in the rainbow. Full spectrum light emulates this quality of light. Typical incandescent lighting--the normal lightbulb spikes as yellow--with none of the other parts of the spectrum. That's why on a winter night if you stand outside the house the light looks yellow coming through the windows. Halogen, also popular also spikes in the yellow range. It was suggested that I post the specs on the lighting. Not all bulbs that claim to be natural sunlight meet these specs. Specifically, the CRI needs to be above 90. The CRI is a measure of how the light compares to actual sunlight on a vibrantly sunny day in the summer. The closer to 100, the better--and also the more expensive. Another way of measuring light is in degrees Kelvin, which I do not fully understand, but full spectrum is considered to be 5000K. Greg |
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14 Dec 09 - 10:07 AM (#2788031) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: VirginiaTam Been looking into pantothenic acid and some report improvement of Rheumatoid Arthritis symptoms when using it. That's a good recommendation for me. Wonder does it upset the tummy? Most vitamins and minerals tear up my stomach. |
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14 Dec 09 - 10:30 AM (#2788045) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: wysiwyg I also have issues when taking supplements, but never did with this (it's B5 if I recall right). ~S~ |
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14 Dec 09 - 10:36 AM (#2788049) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: VirginiaTam yep it is. and since I am no longer on methotrexate cannot interfere with treatment. |
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14 Dec 09 - 10:43 AM (#2788053) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: wysiwyg OK. I found and sent the doc. I don't post it in threads because I don't think it should replace careful thought by the billions of Googlers it would attract. ~S~ |
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14 Dec 09 - 02:06 PM (#2788210) Subject: RE: BS: Seasonal Affective Disorder question From: VirginiaTam British airways is striking 22 Dec through 2 Jan. Hilary's flights are 18 and 30 Dec. She should be ok coming over unless they bump her but going back? I am very very anxious about this. She could lose her job if she misses work. worry worry Not doing very well on the avoiding stress thing. It hunts me down. |