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17 Dec 09 - 07:28 PM (#2790831) Subject: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Dame Pattie Smith EPNS The Llantrisant Mari Lwyd (the Welsh Pagan tradition of the decorated horse's skull) will be out and about on the Winter Solstice tour on Sunday 20th December. Times and places are as follows; 12 noon - Dynevor Arms, Groes Faen - Time for a drink 12.45 - Penny Farthing, Southgate - Time for a drink 1.30 - Llantrisant town. Order of pubs; New Inn Workingmens' Club Bear Inn - Time for a drink Cross Keys - Time for a drink Private house Wheatsheaf - Time for a drink 4.45 - Cross Inn - Finish off so drink all you want As usual we will collecting for charity, this year all proceeds go to Holme Towers, Marie Curie Cancer Hospice, Penarth. Please feel free to join us, the more the merrier. For more info. please visit www.folkwales.org.uk. Sorry not very good at blue clickies. |
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18 Dec 09 - 02:14 AM (#2790972) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Jack Blandiver How on earth is the Mari a pagan tradition? And why the Winter Solstice association? Looks like something has gone a bit awry somewhere here, as is evident by the link: http://www.folkwales.org.uk/mari.html But then again, here's what WIKI has to say: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mari_Lwyd Oh dear! Still, we get something at least approaching the essence of the thing from the Nation Museum of Wales: http://www.museumwales.ac.uk/en/279/ |
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18 Dec 09 - 02:28 AM (#2790974) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Jack Blandiver Actually that WIKI link wasn't too bad - I saw Perhaps deriving from an ancient rite for the Celtic goddess Rhiannon and assumed the worst! |
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18 Dec 09 - 03:53 AM (#2790998) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Splott Man Heathen would probably be a more accurate description. Whichever, it's a celebration done which a sense of fun while keeping a venerable tradition alive. Perhaps a new thread should be opened to discuss the history etc of the Mari Lwyd. Let's keep this one as a call and response for attendance. Incidentally, the timings get vague after 1.30, simply because the venues are all within 150yds of the Bullring, so anything could happen. |
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18 Dec 09 - 04:06 AM (#2791001) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Jack Blandiver Heathen would probably be a more accurate description. ???? |
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18 Dec 09 - 10:06 AM (#2791190) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Dead Horse The word pagan comes from the Latin word paganus which means a country dweller. It fits. And it doesnt come loaded with Christian dogma. Just an observation. |
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18 Dec 09 - 10:09 AM (#2791193) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Dead Horse Forgot to add my best wishes to The Mari Lwyd, from your kinsmen 'Ooden 'orse in deepest darkest Kent :-) |
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18 Dec 09 - 10:23 AM (#2791208) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Richard Mellish SO'P - I'm not sure what point you were intending to make, when you said > Looks like something has gone a bit awry somewhere here. If the Mari Lwyd isn't pagan or heathen, what is it? Surely not Christian? Would you consider it just a custom in its own right, entirely unrelated to any religion? It's obviously related to other house-visiting customs, many of which happen around the same time of year, but it does have the distinctive features of the mare, represented by her skull, and the pwnco. I agree that the putative link to Rhiannon is a stretch across a very long time, but the only way to rule it out absolutely would be to positively identify a more recent origin. Richard |
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18 Dec 09 - 03:26 PM (#2791496) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Anne Lister Sorry we can't be with you - if I have a voice at all on Sunday I'm involved in the Plygain at Llancaiach. |
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18 Dec 09 - 03:36 PM (#2791503) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Jack Blandiver To describe any folk custom as being Pagan is to attach to it an unrealistic historical / cultural / spiritual provenance best described as Frazerian after the absurd leaps of fancy Sir James Frazer was given to in The Golden Bough. Of course such thinking persists today in the popular imagination whereby many such folk customs are seen as being survivals of something ancient, invariably pagan, and, accordingly, laden with all manner of ancient symbolic meaning. The links given in the OP are typical of such thinking, rather than getting down to facts of what we know about the history of the Mari Llwyd as a piece of folklore and its meaning to the people who did it rather than the speculations of those who have latterly revived the custom and seem to be missing the point rather. |
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19 Dec 09 - 05:14 AM (#2791853) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Mr Red And you could do it all again on Jan 16 Dame Pattie must be grieving her dead spoon more than I thought. She forgot to tell us about the Mari Lwyd Ceilidh in Chepstow and who are the band Pattie? We may be there if not in Kent (danson a la Francais) |
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19 Dec 09 - 05:31 AM (#2791858) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: My guru always said Oh Patti, how we'd love to come and join Mari Lwyd on her tour!! Hope everyone keeps their footing during this inclement weather! |
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19 Dec 09 - 07:26 AM (#2791888) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) "To describe any folk custom as being Pagan is to attach to it an unrealistic historical / cultural / spiritual provenance best described as Frazerian" There are major language problems associated to the use of "Pagan". The original meaning (in small p form) of a kind of 'uneducated peasant' who hasn't yet got with the new hip Christian programme doesn't suit the knowing intentional modern revival of the tatters of pre-Christian folk custom. And such knowing modern revivals, of the tattered remnants of folk-custom are even *less* suited to the capital P attribution which soley belongs to formal contemporary 'Earth Based' religions such as Wicca. I have yet to find a word that rightly describes my own sense of 'earth based' spirituality - so I use 'small p Pagan' not in it's original dictionary sense, but in the exact same sense as 'small c Christian' - ie: a watered down derivative of the capital P formal religious Pagan. Otherwise folk-custom revivalists, I think would be better off speaking of "possible pre-Christian origins" for such folk customs as are being described here, rather than "Pagan" which is a term too saturated with confusion and contention to be meaningfully useful (IMO). |
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19 Dec 09 - 07:35 AM (#2791895) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Jack Blandiver According to Bob Pegg in his book Rites and Riots the earliest reference to the Mari Lwyd comes from the end of the 18th century. Hutton gives 1800 in Stations of the Sun - pointing out that the custom was defunct by the early 20th century. Whilst this doesn't preclude an earlier provenance, it gives us an historical context that is more workable than the re-inventions and intentions of those involved in its revival, because, as noted elsewhere, whilst a folk custom dies as one thing, it is invariably revived as something else altogether. In 1943 Iorweth Peate (in 'Mari Lwyd: A Suggested Exlanation', Man, 63) could insist that 'no one doubts that the Mari Lwyd is a pre-Christian horse ceremony', while adding that it has become united with a standard South Welsh wassailing custom. To Trefor Owen thirty years later (in 'Welsh Folk Customs' WFM 1974) the priorities were reversed, so the wassail appeared to be the basic activity onto which the horse had been grafted, perhaps from the horse of the early morris dance. Pagan origins were dismissed with the simple comment that none of the surviving accouts of the 'mari' implied an ritual or religious significance. (Hutton, Stations of the Sun, p.88) |
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19 Dec 09 - 07:49 AM (#2791902) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Jack Blandiver Cross-post there, CS. Even so there is no evidence, nor yet any good reason, to suggest a pre-Christian origin for any folk-custom other than a particular sort of romantic fancy typical of both the Victorian Folklorist (who, in imperialistic superiority, couldn't conceive that these rugged peasants could possibly understand the true significance & symbolic meaning of the ancient lore they unwittingly perpetuated) and the Neo-Pagan (who, enlivened by The Wicker Man, feels that such customs betoken the survival of a True Older Religion suppressed by The Cult of the Nazarene). Whilst the Victorian Folklorist would suggest that the participants don't fully understand what they're actually doing, I dare say the Neo-Pagans would argue that they do fully understand it, just they're not letting on. In any case, as a traditional custom the Mari Lwyd pegged out around 1920, and, like the Hastings Jack-the-Green, what happens now is by way of a post-modern reinvention that has all but obfuscated the original sense of the thing. |
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19 Dec 09 - 03:40 PM (#2792209) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Anne Lister Now you've picked all the nits out of one word of the OP, perhaps you would consider the intention behind the OP and reinforced by Splottie's post of 18 December? I'm assuming all of this commentary on the possible origins and significance of the Mari means you're NOT going to join the tour and raise money for charity while having a jolly good time, putting a smile on lots of faces and paying attention to an old custom? Happy Christmas, one and all - isn't the Mudcat great? And I hope you have a great time with the Mari! Our apologies again for not being able to join you. As I write this I still don't know if I'll have a voice for the Plygain tomorrow. I live in hopes. |
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20 Dec 09 - 09:40 AM (#2792725) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Jack Blandiver I'm assuming all of this commentary on the possible origins and significance of the Mari means you're NOT going to join the tour and raise money for charity while having a jolly good time, putting a smile on lots of faces and paying attention to an old custom? Sounds more a job for Mr Blobby, Anne - otherwise, it's not just one word, it's the whole revivalist mindset that has so effectively reinvented such old customs as post-modern fakeloric fantasies, thus, as I say, missing the point entirely. Wassail! |
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20 Dec 09 - 09:45 AM (#2792727) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Jack Blandiver Oops! Wrong Wassail link, though ours is very nice (ahem) this is one is sung by Phil Tanner & features some lovely old shots of Ewenny Wassail Bowl, Phil & the Mari... Wondrous! Wassail! |
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20 Dec 09 - 01:12 PM (#2792894) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Anne Lister I'd suggest that if you're comparing the Mari with Mr Blobby in any way you've rather missed the point. What WAS your point, though - that because you can't trace the origin of a custom it shouldn't be revived by anyone in any way? Or that customs have to be really, really old? (in which case cancel most of Christmas) The point of this thread was to let people know the Mari was out and about today, in case they wanted to join in. Obviously you didn't. The custom of the Mari survived in this part of Wales into living memory, so it's hardly a "revivalist" pastime. When it started is more of a mystery, but that's true of many customs. The quibbling has been over the use of the word "pagan". Possibly valid quibbling, but really not important in the great scheme of things. Why not just enjoy it for what it is? Why not just have some fun? I'm very sorry if for you "fun" and "smiling" equates to Mr Blobby, as he has the entirely opposite effect on me. |
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20 Dec 09 - 02:34 PM (#2792953) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: SussexCarole Suibhne - "...Phil & Mari" Llangennith - home of Phil Tanner and where we are lucky to live is in the English speaking part of Gower. The horses on Gower therefore were NOT refered to as Mari Lwydd. We were fortunate though to welcome a Welsh Mari to our wedding in Llangennith in 2006 Llantrisant Mari Llwyd The Rhossili (Gower) horse now about 100 years made a guest appearance at our folk club Christmas party last Sunday. Rhosilli (Gower) Midwinter horse Of course to the uninitiated, the two may look the same - but they're not. Carole |
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20 Dec 09 - 02:53 PM (#2792969) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: SussexCarole Sorry we can't make the Mari Lwyd tour this year. |
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20 Dec 09 - 03:12 PM (#2792984) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: skarpi Blæmí ! drinks in all the pubs ? je you must be well drunk after all thins ? Shortest day here is tomorrow , had a great walk today along the coast in good cold weather , the light was short , but it was a great day 11:14-16:48 that was all the light we had today . all the best Skarpi Iceland . |
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20 Dec 09 - 03:37 PM (#2793001) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) To the person who objected to the thread drift, and suggested opening a fresh thread on the associated topics - can't see any problem in this thread sparking broader discussion myself! especially as it keeps *this thread* at the top, where it can still happily do the job it was initially intended for.. :) Otherwise, I personally find such drifts very enlightening - I'm not 'up' on history or folk-lore but it's only since reading threads like this very one here, that I've learned just how much of what we imagine to be 'pagan' or even 'traditional', is in fact no such thing. However, I think it's fully possible to be entertained and engaged by modern "traditions" or neo-Pagan "folk-customs" *without* also needing to be under the false presumption that whatever you're enjoying is a genuine pagan ritual, or a part of some unbroken village custom going back to before the Ice-Age. Ascertaining the truth of the matter, in no way has to diminish the value of an event such as this! In fact I think to the contrary, I have an imagination I enjoy fantasy and the 'magical' suspension of disbelief that seasonal rites evoke in us - whatever their provenance. For what we do know for sure, is that people are eternally creative and love to celebrate in all manner of quirky ways. That's something that's never going to change. And I'm sure that the Solstice Tour will be a heap load of the kind of fun, I'd very happily get involved in. |
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21 Dec 09 - 02:49 AM (#2793359) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Jack Blandiver The horses on Gower therefore were NOT refered to as Mari Lwydd. Thanks for pointing this out. Were the horses in the Ewenny Wassail Bowl video Gower horses then? I assumed there'd been a mix up in the editing - as often happens, and someone mentioned the mari in the comments... |
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21 Dec 09 - 03:33 AM (#2793374) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Dame Pattie Smith EPNS I would like to thank everyone who came on our tour yesterday. There were about 25 of us at one point I think. We had the stock characters with us ie. the Leader, Merryman, Punch and Siwan, by the way we had a new Siwan this year as Miskin Man is now on the IOW. John did a wonderful job and as he was driving the bus with his headscarf and full make-up on he got quite a few funny looks! The Mari had a drink in EVERY pub as usual. We did a private house and were very warmly greeted with mince pies, chocolate marsh mallows etc. We welcomed the Camarthan Mari once again this year, 2 Maris are always better than one, they were so pleased to see each other after a year. I haven't counted the money yet but I think there's about £200 in the bucket which will be sent to Holme Towers cancer hospice in Penarth in due course. The New Years Eve Mari tour will be meeting in the Boars Head Tylagarw at 7pm. More details of that will be on the Folkwales website this week. Once again thank you all for coming and thank you to everyone for keeping this thread at the top. Nadolig Llawen X The Dame |
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21 Dec 09 - 03:37 AM (#2793375) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Dame Pattie Smith EPNS Oh I forgot to mention, we will be visiting Llangynwyd on New Years Day this year to welcome the Llangynwyd Mari. This tradition has never stopped and since the last member of the family Cynwyd Evans died about 12 years ago, everybody has made sure the tradition has been kept alive. She will be arriving at the Old House pub at about 2pm. |
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21 Dec 09 - 04:25 AM (#2793387) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Splott Man I wasn't objecting to thread drift pre se (18 Dec). I felt deeper discussion was appearing too early in the thread and would be a distraction from it's original purpose. And by the way, The Mari Lwyd did not become defunct. By it's very nature, it is a small, local "ritual", and has been carried on unbroken without outside knowledge in various locations, Llangynwyd being the most visible. Splott man |
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21 Dec 09 - 06:29 AM (#2793442) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Mr Red Llangynwyd ---- That's easy for you to say! Splottie has just corrected a link for me. My link above to Chepstow is to my site which gives details. The link on my site goes to the wrong (if beautiful) place. Cheptow Mari Lwyd page (update tonight on my site. |
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21 Dec 09 - 06:47 AM (#2793445) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: SussexCarole Llangynwyd - that's not to be confused with Llangynnydd! (Llangennith) |
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21 Dec 09 - 07:19 AM (#2793457) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Splott Man Incidentally, the Gower horse is well over 100 years old. While on yesterday's tour, we met a lady who remembers the original Llantrisant Mari visiting house to house in Talbot Green. |
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21 Dec 09 - 07:24 AM (#2793460) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Jack Blandiver Did the Gower horse have a special name? Was it associated with The Gower Wassail song in any way? |
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22 Dec 09 - 03:42 AM (#2794089) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Splott Man The Gower horse has the name Sharper, that may be particular to the current horse. Previous horses (as I said earlier, C19) may have had other names. |
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22 Dec 09 - 06:04 AM (#2794151) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Mick Tems 144 years old, give or take the odd year. The story goes that the Mumbles lads had journeyed up the Swansea Valley, where they had seen the Mari Lwyd and wanted some of the action for themselves. they dug up Sharper, an old horse who used to pull the vegetable cart and had been buried in a lime-pit at Barland Quarry. They cleaned up Sharper's skull, and the vicar of All Saint's Church (who came from Derby), the curate and the choirboys composed the Mumbles Horse's Head song. It want like this: My clothing it was once And my limbs they were so fine My many and tail was long And my coat it used to shine But now I'm getting an old horse And my courage is getting small I'm forced to eat the sour grobs That grow beneath the wall. Poor old horse, let him die (here the horse bows low) Poor old horse, let him die. He eateth all my hay and corn Devoureth all my straw He is not fit to ride upon Nor yet my carriage draw Likewise these actiful limbs of mine That have travelled many a mile Over hedges, ditches, bramble bushes Gates and narrow stiles My bones unto the huntsman So freely I would give My flesh unto the hounds Well I really do believe Then it's whip him, spur him, cut him, To the huntsman let him go It's whip him, spur him, cut him, To the huntsman let him go So now they've eaten all my flesh My bones are white and dry They put my head upon a stick To go out at Christmastime So now my song is ended But I still am very gay To wish you all your happiness On this coming Christmas Day On this coming Christmas Day On this coming Christmas Day Could the vicar have carried the verses from Derby to Mumbles? Before her death many years ago, Mrs Marjorie Bowden, the mother of Len Bowden, keeper of the horse, recalled that only men went out and sang with the horse - but the children boiled a ram's head and carried it round behind the horse, singing: As I was going to Derby, 'twas on a Derby day, I met the finest ram, sir, that ever was fed upon hay. Singing high way, follow-me-oh, Follow-me-ollo-me eye-do. This ram had two great horns, sir, as far as your eye could see, And inside of his horns, sir, the parson used to preach. This ram had two great eyes, sir, as big as you ever have seen, And the boys had them for footballs to kick around you see. And all the boys in Derby was looking for his skin, To make a handy waistcoat, for that was just the thing. So now my song is ended, I cannot sing no more, But if we come another new year, we hope you'll give us more. But that doesn't explain the boom in older Gower Horse's Head songs, from Horton to Rhosili to Llangennith. George Tucker, from Horton, had a different one: Once I was a young horse and in my stable gay, I had the best of everything, both barley oats and hay... Mr Tucker sang "grass" instead of "grobs". I have been out with the Mumbles Horse and sung in the "choir". Len refuses to let anyone wear it - "If anyone smashes it, it's going to be me. |
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22 Dec 09 - 06:23 AM (#2794160) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Splott Man The song is related in content to songs I've heard from Yorkshire. |
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22 Dec 09 - 06:24 AM (#2794161) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Splott Man The Nos Galan tour, 31 Dec: 19.30-20.00 Boar's Head, Tyle Garw 20.20-20.45 3 Horseshoes, Peterston-super-Ely 20.55-21.15 Creigiau Inn, Creigiau 21.20-21.50 King's Arms, Pentyrch 21.55-22.30 Gwaelod-y-Garth Inn 23.00- (for those that will) Falcon, Godreaman |
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22 Dec 09 - 06:41 AM (#2794177) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Jack Blandiver There are many variants of the old horse song. My favourite comes from the singing of Jim Eldon, who in turn got it from the singing of Jimmy and Tommy Feeney. The Old Grye Song (Poor Old Horse) Once he was a young horse, he was a young horse in his prime; and his master used to ride him, and he thought he was very fine. But he's still my own, bonny sweet, who rode so many the mile; over hedges, ditches, brooks and bridges, gates and cleared many the stile. Poor old horse, poor old horse, oh cherry old grey. And his legs and his irons have all gone to decay; likewise he poor old body, it's all withered away. Poor old horse, poor old horse, oh cherry old grey. Once he wore the clothing of the lindsay oh so fine; and his eyes they sparkle, and his mane it did shine. Poor old horse, poor old horse, oh cherry old grey. Out from the warm stable to the fields he has to go; let it rain, hail, or sun shines, or the winds blow high and low. Poor old horse, poor old horse, oh cherry old grey. Oh, he's stealing all my hay, spoiling all my corn, He's eating up the long grass that grows against the wall. Poor old horse, poor old horse, oh cherry old grey. They'll beat him, whip him, cut him, Til the huntsmen let him go. Poor old horse, poor old horse, oh cherry old grey. * The Derby Ram is a well travelled beast; the version I do was collected in Australia! |
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22 Dec 09 - 10:40 AM (#2794293) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Mick Tems For an encore, the Mumbles Horse's Head choir used to sing The Mistletoe Bough, which is known all over England and Wales - but Tom Gammon, of Thistleboon, told me that Mumbles folk believed the ballad referred to a tragedy which took place in Oystermouth Castle! |
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22 Dec 09 - 06:35 PM (#2794626) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: John J Is the Llantrisant Play related in any way to the Pencoed Play? I understand the Pencoed Play is no longer performed. JJ |
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09 Mar 10 - 03:27 PM (#2860356) Subject: Query on the lyrics of "Old Grye" From: George Papavgeris I wonder if you can help me with a query on this wonderful song. In one of the verses it says "his legs and his irons have all gone to decay". Now, the mention of "legs" in this line seems a little out of place, since the following line mentions "Likewise his poor old body etc". In other words, it would be more "neat" to my thinking if the first line refers to equipment/dress and the second to elements of the body. The way it stands the two are mixed, unless... ...is perchance the expression "legs" significant of some item among the horses tackle? Do you happen to know anything about this? Or am I just being super-finicky? I'd be grateful for your views |
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09 Mar 10 - 03:35 PM (#2860362) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Jack Blandiver Looks like The Old Grye (Grey) Song, George. I've linked to it HERE. Nothing to do with the Mari though, but a real beauty. I first heard it from Jim Eldon and I've been singing it ever since. |
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09 Mar 10 - 05:49 PM (#2860531) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: Jack Blandiver Didn't see I'd put it up there too - how time flies etc. As for the verses being mixed up, that's the poetic language of the traditional piece - as such it stands as sacrosanct in my view. Legs is legs in this case... |
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09 Mar 10 - 08:39 PM (#2860630) Subject: RE: Llantrisant Mari Lwyd Solstice Tour From: *#1 PEASANT* To view our new Baltimore Mari go to the link below. Still looking for proper harness- and need to make a cape. Operational by next January wassail in Baltimore. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdP6riSSoX0 Baltimore Mari conrad |