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30 Dec 09 - 07:29 AM (#2799172) Subject: BS: Ancient Indigenous astrologers From: freda underhill Indigenous Australians might have been some of the earliest astronomers, a Sydney-based scientist has found. Scientists found a bowl-shaped crater about 130 km southwest of Alice Springs, after investigating an area described in local Aboriginal legends.. Aboriginal legends point to crater find
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30 Dec 09 - 07:40 AM (#2799174) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astrologers From: Nigel Parsons It must be asked. Do you mean astronomers, or astrologers? You've got one in your post, but the other in the title. Cheers Nigel |
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30 Dec 09 - 09:17 AM (#2799222) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astrologers From: Rapparee Hmmm...there's the "woodhenge" at Cahokia Mounds, and strong evidence in the Chaco culture, and the petroglyphs of the American West, and the ancient Chinese, and the various cultures of South and Mesoamerica...why WOULDN'T indigenous peoples be as astronomically minded as we are or even more so, since light pollution hadn't dimmed there view of the stars? |
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30 Dec 09 - 09:18 AM (#2799223) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astrologers From: Paul Burke No difference until recently. The main difference now is that astronomers successfully predict things that happened half a billion years ago, while astrologers can't predict things that happened yesterday. The old Aussies from the description to have been rather scientific, if I get the story right- having seen and heard meteorite impacts, they not only associated the new craters with the phenomena, but extrapolated the knowledge to ancient craters that were created before humans colonised Australia. |
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30 Dec 09 - 09:46 AM (#2799242) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astrologers From: Uncle_DaveO In my usual picky, pedantic style, I need to quibble with (or at least question) the use of "astronomer" in this account. Granted that there appear to be tales in the abo culture relating to a perhaps catastrophic impact, the word "astronomer" implies a good deal more than "something big fell and made a huge boom and a depression in the ground". Nothing is said about that the big thing that fell came from the stars, or had anything to do with the stars, sun, or moon. Nothing is said that implies the existence of an organized body of knowledge (or an early attempt to build such a body of knowledge) relating to study of the natural system of the heavens. If the cultural recollection that something big fell, etc., without more, constitutes astronomy, then the knowledge that water will dissolve salt, without more, constitutes chemistry. And lots more reductio ad absurdum examples could be given. Dave Oesterreich |
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30 Dec 09 - 03:27 PM (#2799499) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astrologers From: GUEST, heric The impact of the story depends on the accuracy of the dreaming story in terms of location, and the author skipped over that issue. If the only crater within the location description is the pre-human, Palm Valley crater, then it's a great story (unless modern indigenous Australians are sufficiently perceptive about the geography to know that's a crater, without the use of Ph.D geologists and their tool kits.) |
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30 Dec 09 - 04:08 PM (#2799540) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astrologers From: katlaughing freda, thanks for the link and thread. It's neat they found it. I look forward to hearing more as they explore. |
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30 Dec 09 - 08:57 PM (#2799738) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astrologers From: Uncle_DaveO A mudcatter pointed out to me that the expression "abo" is seen as pejorative, an equivalent of "the N word". I had not known that, and that certainly was not my intent. My apologies to anyone who might feel insulted, and to the Mudcat community generally. Dave Oesterreich |
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02 Jan 10 - 04:29 AM (#2801272) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astrologers From: freda underhill thanks all, well, you're all a bit right except for Nigel who's totally right (being very good as usual at pointing out my typos), how can you use the term "astronomer" to describe an Indigenous person looking at the stars without a telescope. The free online dictionary says astronomy is: 1. The scientific study of matter in outer space, especially the positions, dimensions, distribution, motion, composition, energy, and evolution of celestial bodies and phenomena. 2. A system of knowledge or beliefs about celestial phenomena: the various astronomies of ancient civilizations. I guess definition 2 covers the old stargazers of many civilisations. In Australia we don't really know much about how much the original Australians knew, and it's good that Indigenous people are being consulted and their knowledge recorded and investigated. The crater is a new discovery, not a previously known one. Check out Emu dreaming: the Australian Aboriginal Astronomy project. This Macquarie University project has some interesting links to information being gathered, for those who're interested. freda |
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02 Jan 10 - 07:54 AM (#2801367) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astrologers From: DMcG I'm with Paul: the two terms can't really be differentiated until relatively recently. Use of a telescope doesn't really come into into it and using the dictionary definitions doesn't help too much. Like many dictionaries defn 2 is circular: an astronomer is one who studies an astronomony. True, but not very helpful. Defn 1 is not really much better: is keeping an accurate calendar of sufficient quality to predict return of comets, lunar eclipses and so forth sufficent to constitute 'scientific' even if accompanied by ritual sacrifices and so forth which are believed to be as important? It's a matter of taste, in the end. Probably the crucial distinction is whether human lives and planetary motion are thought to be independant, and that question wasn't even asked (as far as we know) until pretty recently. As far as aboriginal dreams are concerned, that seems a pretty weak link to hang this particular chain on. As someone mentioned, the accuracy of the dream-information is one thing; also relevant is the number of things dreamed about that are not representative of things in the real world. (Bayes Theorem and all that.) |
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02 Jan 10 - 09:42 AM (#2801433) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astrologers From: GUEST,Paul Burke What, Tycho Brahe, Copernicus and Kepler weren't astronomers, just because they didn't have a telescope? They were indigenous too, of somewhere, we all are. |
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02 Jan 10 - 02:30 PM (#2801696) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astrologers From: Q (Frank Staplin) The Polynesians, the "Vikings of the Pacific," were adept at using the stars in their voyages. Many ancient peoples used the positions of the sun and planets in both religious practices and in determining planting cycles. |
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02 Jan 10 - 04:15 PM (#2801787) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astrologers From: GUEST,Paul Burke Did they get a good crop of mountain bikes or did good harvests reach up to MHz? |
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02 Jan 10 - 08:05 PM (#2801957) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astrologers From: freda underhill If you have a look at the site I linked to (Emu dreaming) and click on some of the images on the right, you'll see information about awareness of the Sun, moon and eclipses, ceremonies related to Venus, the emu-in-the sky constellation, a 50 metre stone circle in Victoria which appears to be aligned on the equinox and solstice sunsets, and a possible lunar calendar etched into rock in South Australia. |
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02 Jan 10 - 09:20 PM (#2801990) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astrologers From: John on the Sunset Coast My question, since I did not see a mention in the story, is how old is this bowl. Has it been carbon dated, or found in a datable context? How far back can Australo-aborigines be traced? Certainly in Egypt and Mesopotamia astronomical observances were recorded as far back as the 4th millenium BCE, perhaps earlier. |
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02 Jan 10 - 09:27 PM (#2801994) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astrologers From: freda underhill The use of dreaming and dreamtime also has a different meaning to Indigenous Australians. It's not about dreams and thoughts while asleep, it's a way of describing the world. Indigenous Australians see all life as it is today - human, animal, bird and fish as part of one vast unchanging network of relationships which can be traced to the great spirit ancestors of the Dreamtime. The Dreamtime continues as the "Dreaming" in the spiritual lives of aboriginal people today. The Dreaming has different meanings for different Aboriginal groups. The Dreaming can be seen as the embodiment of Aboriginal creation which gives meaning to everything; the essence of Aboriginal beliefs about creation and spiritual and physical existence. It establishes the rules governing relationships between the people, the land and all things for Aboriginal peoples. The Dreaming is linked to the past, the present and the future. The Dreamtime is the beginning of knowledge, from which came the laws of existence. For survival these laws must be observed. |
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04 Jan 10 - 06:20 AM (#2802829) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astrologers From: freda underhill John, more detailed information is now online, including about the age of the crater.. we estimate the crater to be millions of years old The author disusses some of the claims made recently about the discovery, and the site gives phgotos and a detailed explanation of how the discovery was made (including a fair bit of luck). Aboriginal Australians are ancient peoples and it is estimated that they have been in Australia for 50,000 years or more. There are links to coming publications and research at the bottom of the web page. |
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04 Jan 10 - 06:45 AM (#2802842) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astrologers From: freda underhill as well, here's a link to the original university media release which has some more info, including finding archaeological evidence at the site in the form of flaked stone tools. freda |
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04 Jan 10 - 09:52 AM (#2802954) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astrologers From: 3refs This was interesting. |
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04 Jan 10 - 09:54 AM (#2802955) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astrologers From: 3refs But it didn't work! http://www.unb.ca/passc/ImpactDatabase/index.html |
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04 Feb 11 - 08:25 PM (#3088927) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astrologers From: freda underhill Here's another discovery which may provide proof Aborigines were the world's first astronomers? IS it just a pile of plain paddock rocks placed in a semicircle, or proof Aborigines were the world's first astronomers? Some of Australia's most distinguished astrophysicists are starting to believe it's the latter - a discovery that could turn history and cultural books upside down and render England's famous Stonehenge an also-ran. Dubbed Wurdi Youang, the strange stone arrangement was found on a property near Mt Rothwell, 80km west of Melbourne, its two points set in perfect alignment with the setting sun on a mid-summer's day. CSIRO professors believe the ancient Aboriginal sundial could be more than 10,000 years old, an estimate that would have it pre-date the famous neolithic Stonehenge and the only remaining ancient wonder of the world, the Egyptian Pyramids. CSIRO astrophysicist Professor Ray Norris said the precise alignment of the stones proved beyond a doubt it was constructed to map the movements of the sun, in order to track the seasons. "What we have found with this stone arrangement, which is a circle of about 50m across, is it's aligned east-west and what is really interesting is that if you stand at the top and look through this particular gap over the stones, you look at the exact position of where the sun sets on summer and winter solstices and at the spring and autumn equinoxes," Prof Norris said. "This can't be done by guesswork. It required very careful measurements. "If it goes back, let's say, 10,000 years, that predates the Egyptians, the Pyramids, Stonehenge, all that stuff. So, that would indeed make them the world's first astronomers." |
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04 Feb 11 - 08:47 PM (#3088936) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astrologers From: Bill D Even if they did create this alignment, it doesn't show that they did much with it. The Egyptians, the Aztecs and Incas did real calculations based on the stars. This shows a certain 'awareness', but I'd not grant them too many titles based on these small examples. |
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04 Feb 11 - 09:26 PM (#3088955) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astrologers From: freda underhill Australia's Aboriginal culture represents one of the oldest surviving cultures in the world, with the use of stone tool technology and painting with red ochre pigment dating back over 60,000 years. Before Galileo, the Yolngu people in the Northern Territory knew that the earth was in space and the sun moved around it, or appeared to move around it. They also had a recognition of how the moon moved, how it's linked to tides; and had names for Orion,Venus, and other stars, the Milky Way and constellations. This information is sourced from the Emu Dreaming site that I linked to earlier in this thread. As most information has been handed down orally and through rock art, the Wurdi Youang stone circle is one of the few indicators we have of ancient Aboriginal astronomical knowledge in Australia. |
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04 Feb 11 - 09:31 PM (#3088957) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astrologers From: Bill D Yes.. *smile*... I am not disputing that they did a lot and were very wise and observant. I only question how much true 'science' we can attribute to them from these few relics. |
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04 Feb 11 - 09:42 PM (#3088961) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astrologers From: freda underhill Bill, no probs, nothing escapes your rational analysis, and lucky for us. I think only a scientist can understand those rocks and how they can be used, I would have looked at them and thought they were marking out a picnic site or something. But here in Australia this information is a big thing, we are having to continually reassess our assumptions about the people who lived here first and their knowledge. |
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04 Feb 11 - 11:11 PM (#3088983) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astrologers From: josepp You can't conclude anything from these articles. They are incredibly unspecific. |
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04 Feb 11 - 11:40 PM (#3088986) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astronomers From: freda underhill Josepp, the article says "CSIRO astrophysicist Professor Ray Norris said the precise alignment of the stones proved beyond a doubt it was constructed to map the movements of the sun, in order to track the seasons." It doesn't describe his methodology, just his conclusions. :-) btw the CSIRO is Australia's Commonwealth Science and research Organisation. |
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05 Feb 11 - 04:22 PM (#3089398) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astronomers From: Uncle_DaveO The article says "CSIRO astrophysicist Professor Ray Norris said the precise alignment of the stones proved beyond a doubt it was constructed to map the movements of the sun," . . . . . . is a reasonable inference, but "proved beyond a doubt" is a bit of a stretch. And that, combined with the rest of the quote, ". . . in order to track the seasons", . . . raises additional questions. How does he know why those ancients did what they did, if they did? I think the more reasonable paraphrase of what Prof. Norris said would be, "the precise alignment of the stones almost surely shows that it was constructed to map the movements of the sun, and we can reasonably speculate that that was to track the seasons." Dave Oesterreich |
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05 Feb 11 - 04:34 PM (#3089406) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astronomers From: The Fooles Troupe The fact that this arrangement of rock was where it was in a largely intensively 'un'settled area meant that it has survived, In Queensland for instance, rocks were dragged out of fields (during the period of The Kanakas) and stacked into stone fences around the cane fields - thousands of acres. Sadly most of these historical fences too have been carted away. Nobody would have cared if there were any 'interesting patterns'. I have also heard tales (and while urban legends, there may doubtless have been real incidents) that if a farmer saw any 'interesting' bumps or areas of rock, he would run a plough over the field 'just in case'. This was in the days of the great fear of 'land rights', and the fear that the farmer would 'lose the land'. I grew up in the Bundaberg area. |
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06 Feb 11 - 05:23 AM (#3089644) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astronomers From: Brian May What a fascinating thread. A few years back I went to Chitchen Itza in Mexico where the Mayans (( believe, but always get confused with them and the Aztecs who I think were much further south), had constructed an observatory. These were a stone age culture too and apparently had calculated the circumference of the earth to an accuracy of under 100 miles discrepancy with the modern view. Stunning. But many cultures would have been involved with 'where to we fit' in the world and an understanding of the seasonal variations would have been fundamental. I'm intrigued by the aborigine view though because I thought that they were nomadic and didn't grow crops - although when you know the season, you'll know what around at the time and what to expect where. . . What I keep reminding myself and others is, these were not stupid people just because they didn't have the resources we have today. Look at what they managed with what they had. I wonder if we have as many people that capable today - I guess we have but the work they do is often too 'boring' for the public with such a short attention span. What a magnificent prospect, keep it coming. |
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06 Feb 11 - 05:52 AM (#3089654) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astronomers From: The Fooles Troupe And there are stone fish traps ... |
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06 Feb 11 - 05:55 AM (#3089655) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astronomers From: Bonnie Shaljean Are you the Brian May that gave a lecture at AstroFest yesterday? http://www.astronomynow.com/astrofest/index.html http://www.astronomynow.com/astrofest2011blog/2011/02/dr-brian-may-at-astrofest- |
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06 Feb 11 - 08:35 PM (#3090142) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astronomers From: freda underhill Thanks Brian, Ft and Bonnie Shaljean for your comments and links! |
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15 Mar 11 - 08:57 AM (#3114094) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astronomers From: freda underhill More research about ancient stories about meteors bringing the origins of life |
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15 Mar 11 - 11:23 AM (#3114195) Subject: RE: BS: Ancient Indigenous astronomers From: Uncle_DaveO Brian May commented, in part: A few years back I went to Chitchen Itza in Mexico where the Mayans (( believe, but always get confused with them and the Aztecs who I think were much further south), had constructed an observatory. The Aztecs had traceable roots northward, in what is now the US. The Aztec culture at the time of the conquest was in south-central Mexico, around what is now Mexico City. The Mayans were centered further south than that. Dave Oesterreich |