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25 Jan 10 - 09:05 PM (#2821537) Subject: BS: With Friends Like These From: Ron Davies It's the old adage. President Obama knew he had opposition on the Neanderthal Right (not that we would ever want to include our beloved Doug R under this rubric.) But it's the Left, amply illustrated by quite a few Mudcatters here below the line, which is hamstringing his Administration. Lefties seem to have the attitude: "OK, We voted for you, but we wanted Kucinich. Now you have to be Kucinich." Lefties have absurdly unrealistic attitudes on a whole range of issues. 1) They are bitterly disappointed that Obama can't snap his fingers and end the Iraq war. 2) They want Guantanamo closed--yesterday-- with no provision for those interned there--some of whom are not really our friends. 3) They want homosexual marriage as the law of the land across the US. (Fortunately heterosexuals will also be allowed). Problem however is that pushing for homosexual marriage is probably the single best way to bring out the foaming crazies on the Right. The Lefties have learned nothing from 2004. 4) Now they insist on a "public option" right off the bat, as a condition for supporting Obama's health reform. Never mind that they would likely get the public option through the back door with Olympia Snowe's "trigger." And there are other examples. The last issue seems to be the most serious obstacle for President Obama in having a successful Administration. The vast majority of Democrats, it seems, agreed health care reform needed to be done. But when compromise proved necessary, Lefties deserted the President in droves. |
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25 Jan 10 - 09:14 PM (#2821538) Subject: RE: BS: With Friends Like These From: Wesley S True - just don't expect a lot of folks to agree with you. |
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25 Jan 10 - 09:16 PM (#2821541) Subject: RE: BS: With Friends Like These From: olddude so whats your point or do you just want hear yourself ramble on for no reason |
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25 Jan 10 - 09:21 PM (#2821547) Subject: RE: BS: With Friends Like These From: Ron Davies Now this Congress, pushed by liberals, is putting the finishing touches on preparing for their own political suicide--branding themselves as a "Do-Nothing Congress". Spooked by polls which indicate displeasure with the health care reform bill as it stands, they are willing to fold on health care--or squander yet more months to come up with pathetic results. They don't seem to realize that aside from Tea Party etc. opposition, the other main source of discontent with the bill is stubborn liberals unwilling to compromise. If liberals were willing to accept the Senate bill as it stands, as a first step ( and tell their Representatives this)---which is what had the WSJ editorial writers petrified-- the seeming majority against the bill would evaporate. And all parties could see that it is in fact a minority which is against health care reform. Meaningful health care reform could start. And Congress could go on to other pressing business--especially combatting the recession. The party in power virtually always loses seats at midterm elections. This time, however, stand by for 1948 redux. An electoral bloodbath appears to be coming, due to the stubbornness of the recession--but also the stubbornness of liberals. Of course the crowning irony of all this is that when the bloodbath occurs in the fall, who will the Lefties blame? Not themselves. President Obama. "The fault, dear Brutus..." |
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25 Jan 10 - 09:23 PM (#2821549) Subject: RE: BS: With Friends Like These From: Ron Davies Point is that people left of center have to realize the Senate bill is the best we can get right now--and contact their Representatives to tell them to support it--now. |
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25 Jan 10 - 09:33 PM (#2821551) Subject: RE: BS: With Friends Like These From: Genie I agree with most of what you've said, Ron. However, the "public option" in health insurance - like the ability to reimport drugs from Canada - is supported by a strong majority of American voters, not just "lefties," much less the "far left." There are issues like this, on which the political pundits on the "mainstream media" (who often have their own agendas) are really misleading the viewers and listeners. I think Obama and the Democrats need to embrace both populism and labels like "progressive" and to use what platforms they have to point out to the public that many popularly held views on issues are, in fact, "liberal" or "progressive." That said, you are right that just like Aesop's dog crossing the bridge with a bone in his mouth and seeing his reflection in the water, we are in danger of losing all the gains we have made and can soon make by demanding that we get it all - NOW! The same would be true for the religious "Right," who will make abortion law and homosexuals' rights the make-or-break issues even for candidates whom they support on everything else. Problem (for us) is, the corporatist "conservatives" have embraced these groups as a political strategy, despite this kind of "social conservatism" and "fiscal conservatism" having no logical connection. So the corporatists just need to find "supply-side economics" candidates who will also spout the rhetoric of the religious right, and, voila! they have a sizable enough bloc to get them elected. Neither the religious right nor the "leftists" as far left as Kucinich, Sanders, etc., have big enough numbers to win many elections without the aid of both the "centrist" voters and a good deal of corporate (non-left-wing) money. So I do think we who are left of center need to be willing to pick our battles, or we'll lose the whole war. |
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25 Jan 10 - 09:40 PM (#2821559) Subject: RE: BS: With Friends Like These From: Ed T Strong viewed folks using politicans to promote their agenda do a good job on both fronts..right and left..and likely will always so so.... |
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25 Jan 10 - 09:42 PM (#2821560) Subject: RE: BS: With Friends Like These From: mousethief No argument from this progressive. O..O =o= |
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26 Jan 10 - 09:20 AM (#2821626) Subject: RE: BS: With Friends Like These From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh Not being an American, I hesitate to comment, but the arguments advanced seem reasonable to me (FWIW); I really just wish to thank mousethief for the wonderful and appealing little "icon". |
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26 Jan 10 - 09:49 AM (#2821647) Subject: RE: BS: With Friends Like These From: Richard Bridge Given the tragically small turnout for Kucinich, the argument that a large sector of "Democratic" opinion wants Obama to be Kucinich seems unusually self-defeating, even for Ron. Been watching the badgers again? And don't I recollect that ending foreign wars and closing Guantanamo were platform commitments of Obama? Whereas, if my memory serves me it was only Kucinich who fully supported single-payer public health provision, although Billary had a bit of a nod towards universality. From where the US is right now,however, Obama is the least worst option for the rest of the world, and an argument could be made that reform of the broken US political system is an even bigger priority than healthcare. My guesstimate is that the Senate's version of the Healthcare bill would actually make matters worse for much of America, rather than better, and it might be better to start again. Maybe Obama could let the current bill pass and then add a whole pile of "signing statements" to rip out the bribes for the insurance companies and drug companies. Drug costs could be tackled sideways by providing for a federal right to import drugs from other jurisdictions free from patent claims in the USA, and to mandate the use of generics. Another sideways route might be to impose federal-only approval of all insurance companies, not just medical, ostensibly in the name of public safety all round. |
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26 Jan 10 - 09:51 AM (#2821649) Subject: RE: BS: With Friends Like These From: SINSULL It's politics as usual. Why is anyone surprised? |
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26 Jan 10 - 09:54 AM (#2821654) Subject: RE: BS: With Friends Like These From: CarolC But it's the Left, amply illustrated by quite a few Mudcatters here below the line, which is hamstringing his Administration. Lefties seem to have the attitude: "OK, We voted for you, but we wanted Kucinich. Now you have to be Kucinich." Seeing as how I'm the only one I am aware of who keeps bringing Kucinich up, please show me where I have done any of the things you are accusing Kucinich supporters of doing. |
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26 Jan 10 - 10:05 AM (#2821667) Subject: RE: BS: With Friends Like These From: Richard Bridge Actually, I keep bringing him up too. The best president you never had. |
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26 Jan 10 - 01:34 PM (#2821828) Subject: RE: BS: With Friends Like These From: michaelr If liberals were willing to accept the Senate bill as it stands, we would be better off with no "reform" at all. There is nothing "meaningful" about it - it's a huge giveaway to insurance companies. When will folks get it through their heads that these corporations are the problem and must be taken out of health care altogether? As regards the war in Iraq, Obama has been painfully slow in winding it down, but it is happening. His surge in Afghanistan, however, is a huge disappointment to (insert your term of choice here) progressives/liberals/peaceniks like myself who believe that war is inherently evil, cannot do anything to repair the damage done to the US reputation in the world, and is impossible to win. |
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26 Jan 10 - 02:14 PM (#2821861) Subject: RE: BS: With Friends Like These From: pdq "...Maybe Obama could let the current bill pass and then add a whole pile of "signing statements" to rip out the bribes for the insurance companies and drug companies." ~ Richard Bridge (barrister) Your knowledge of law does not extend to this side of "the pond". A "signing statement" is usually an expression of the president's opinion of the bill. It has no power to change the bill. If he likes it, he may say why. If he does not like it but is still willing to sign it, he may explain his reservations. It also may be an attempt to explain how he, as chief executive, plans to implement the new law. |
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26 Jan 10 - 02:32 PM (#2821873) Subject: RE: BS: With Friends Like These From: Bill D If Kucinich had political acumen equal to his ideals, I would vote for him in a minute. (remember...his 'plan' for Iraq was to 'pack up and get out....bring all the troops home NOW.) In politics and diplomacy, it seldom works to just barge straight ahead. Kucinich is valuable as a front-man, to excite and point to goals. I am terribly afraid that, as a president, he would cause frothing panic in conservatives, and even more stonewalling than they do now. |
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27 Jan 10 - 10:48 AM (#2822589) Subject: RE: BS: With Friends Like These From: Mrrzy I thought the jews were all supposed to be on the left, what are the neanderthals doing on the right? |
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27 Jan 10 - 10:35 PM (#2823158) Subject: RE: BS: With Friends Like These From: Ron Davies Re: Kucinich: it's obvious to anybody who reads the posts of quite a few below- the- line denizens that his announced positions were--and may still be-- preferable to those posters. Especially any issue having to do with either the Iraq war, Afghanistan war or Guantanamo. Anybody who remembers ancient history--2007 and 2008--should be able to recall all the posters who lauded Mr Kucinich to the skies, invented all sorts of conspiracies to account for his lack of success, and came grudgingly to Obama. And judging by the constant sniping against Obama here--overwhelmingly from the Left-- many seem to still long for Mr. Kucinich. Interesting that some deny it. By the way, Richard, still having problems reading? Hope it improves soon. I can't tell you how important it is to have your support and your vote as a conscientious American citizen in this matter. We certainly hope you vote the right way. And please be sure to call your local representative--though it might possibly completely baffle him. But if the American posters do not make it clear to their Representatives that they realize the Senate bill is all we can get right now and therefore they support it, these Representatives will only hear the --extremely strident-- opposition. And Congress will continue on its merry way to solidify its status as "Do-Nothing Congress." With obvious consequences in the fall. David Plouffe makes the excellent point that regardless of whether the Democrats pass the health care bill now, or don't pass it, they will still be pilloried by the Republicans for the bill. So why not actually accomplish something and pass it? |
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27 Jan 10 - 10:44 PM (#2823162) Subject: RE: BS: With Friends Like These From: Ron Davies If you need names of those who rather obviously prefer Kucinich--start with: Peter T. Donuel, and our dear Guest from Insanity. And that's not the end of the list. |
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27 Jan 10 - 10:46 PM (#2823164) Subject: RE: BS: With Friends Like These From: Ron Davies "...Peter T., Donuel..." |
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27 Jan 10 - 11:46 PM (#2823198) Subject: RE: BS: With Friends Like These From: CarolC Well, if you're accusing me of constantly sniping about Obama, Ron, I think you ought to put up or shut up. Where have I been doing that? Put up or shut up. |
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27 Jan 10 - 11:59 PM (#2823203) Subject: RE: BS: With Friends Like These From: Richard Bridge Still watching the badgers, Ron? If you go digging think you will find that I used to express surprise that your recent neanderthal presidents could refuse to operate or implement enacted law, but that I was repeatedly told that that was exactly what they did. |
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28 Jan 10 - 02:31 AM (#2823215) Subject: RE: BS: With Friends Like These From: Lox Well so far, my criticism of Obama has been that he needs to grow a spine. But perhaps the reality is that it was unrealistic to expect him to be Kucinch. I did hope he'd be a bit tougher on the health issue though. Sometimes you have to grit your teeth and be a man ... ... Hillary might not be a man, but I suspect she has more grit! |
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28 Jan 10 - 09:36 PM (#2824140) Subject: RE: BS: With Friends Like These From: Ron Davies Nobody need get her knickers in a twist. Nobody ever accused you of not supporting Obama, Carol. We are well aware that you and Jack broke your backs working for him, and all his supporters owe you a huge debt of gratitude. The fact remains that there has been just about constant sniping about him--and it continues--heavily from the Left. And an amazing amount of weak-minded nostalgia about Mr. Kucinich. People seem to be unable to recognize that Obama never did promise a lot of what Lefties--and others-- think he did. He in fact purposefully let people read into his statements what they wanted. This is common knowledge. So these people have only themselves to blame when he does not live up their imagined expectations. Furthermore, any president has to be flexible to deal with changing circumstances---and flexibility is not precisely what Lefties (or Righties) are famous for. And, dear Richard, perhaps you've forgotten to tell us if you still think Obama is an "oreo". Can't imagine how that could have slipped your mind. Incipient Alzheimer's? The answer could have an impact on the question of whether you have any credibility at all when the subject is President Obama. |
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28 Jan 10 - 10:44 PM (#2824173) Subject: RE: BS: With Friends Like These From: CarolC If you weren't talking about me then, Ron, the appropriate thing to do would have been to say so after my first post in this thread. You didn't do that. You just kept carrying on with your criticism of Kucinich supporters, which I still consider myself to be. |
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30 Jan 10 - 12:53 PM (#2825618) Subject: RE: BS: With Friends Like These From: Ron Davies The poster possibly needs to develop a thicker skin--if only for the sake of her own blood pressure-- and perhaps realize that she is not the subject of every critical posting. Especially since I listed some who were. |
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30 Jan 10 - 06:29 PM (#2825915) Subject: RE: BS: With Friends Like These From: Herga Kitty Just to digress from politicking...earlier today I heard George Papavgeris sing his song "Friends like these" at the celebration day for Johnny Collins. George wrote it to celebrate his, mine and Johnny's local folk club, and in one verse he incorporated references to me, Johnny and Moses (as in Moses and the Ref). The whole day was about having really great friends like these. I think we in UK have a slightly different perspective on left and right. Kitty |