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12 Feb 10 - 06:42 AM (#2836938) Subject: BS: Optimism - the negatives. From: freda underhill I mentioned this book review in another thread, because of some intersting stuff in it about the global financial crisis, but I think it deserves mention in its own thread, in the context of the impact of thinking oncancers. How Positive Thinking Fooled America and the World The author Barbara Ehrenreich is a scientist who got breast cancer. When seeking information, she kept being directed to the positive thinking industry. the link will lead you to a summary of her take on the happiness industry, and its social implications. Now, I understand how useful it is to try and see the glass half full. There's a heck of a lot of people encouraging us to do that, and some of them are thousands of years old. Ehrenreich presents evidence from a number of studies that find that positive thinking has no effect on survival rates. She quotes women who felt they failed, because they tried all the affirmations etc and still didn't beat ther cancer. For example, a woman who wrote to Deepak Chopra: "Even though I follow the treatments, have come a long way in unburdening myself of toxic feelings, have forgiven everyone, changed my lifestyle to include meditation, prayer, proper diet, exercise and supplements, the cancer keeps coming back. Am I missing a lesson here that it keeps re-occurring? I am positive I am going to beat it, yet it does get harder with each diagnosis to keep a positive attitude." Ehrenreich looks at the evolution of the philosophy of positive thinking in the UK as a reaction to the bitter pessimism and punitive approach of Calvinism. yes, positive thinking is a hell of a lot better than that. Ehrenreich examines how the motivational industry influenced post-global-financial crisis sackings. Hyped up business chiefs told staff being sacked not to worry, and during the sacking they were reminded that they were, in fact, infinitely powerful, if only they could master their own minds. I guess a significant factor is that this motivational optimism is pointed at the individual, and the right of the individual to succeed, or even to maintain their positive view in the face of evidence to the contrary. The significance of the importance of facing the negative can't be understated. Ehrenreich points out that in 2003, a US government official called Armando Falcon warned the White House that companies like Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae were backing far too many dodgy mortgages, risking financial collapse and "contagious illiquidity in the market". Did the White House look at tightening up regulations? Nope. They tried to sack Falcon. He was just being "negative". |
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12 Feb 10 - 11:56 AM (#2837203) Subject: RE: BS: In favour of grumpiness From: katlaughing That's one of the reasons why I give "thanks" and always add the caveat, "I give thanks for this, or something better, for the highest good of all concerned" even if that might mean the "something better" is not at all what I envisioned. It's my way of turning it over to the Cosmic's/God's/Great Spirit's will, not mine. I am not sure it's entirely the fault of the people who are teaching it; in a couple of personal friends' experiences, I think their misinterpretation really messed them up, i.e. thinking one can sit around and do nothing but affirmations is supposed to magically manifest whatever they need or want. It doesn't work that way. It does, however, as you noted, help if we have a positive outlook on life. There've been plenty of studies which show successful people "appear" to be successful before they became that way, because of the way they dress, speak, look like, etc. always being positive in what they project. That helps to draw success to them, imo. |
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12 Feb 10 - 12:17 PM (#2837224) Subject: RE: BS: In favour of grumpiness From: Little Hawk Yeah? So who cares what you lot think!? (snarl!) ;-D (just kidding) Being grouchy is no asset for anyone, unless it's a deliberate acting technique for securing the part of a "crusty but benevolent" older character or an "old grouch" part in some silly TV sitcom...in which case it IS an asset! On the other hand, mere positive thinking and outward posturing of positivity is no asset either, unless it is backed up by effective action, hard work, good judgement, an honest appraisal of oneself and reality, etc... I mention this because my Dad was an absolute master of outwardly positive thinking and creating an "appearance" of personal success, etc...plus he did plenty of hard work, by the way (but didn't make such wise decisions)...to the point where he succeeded in convincing veritable legions of people that he was: 1. extremely successful! (he was not) and 2. quite rich (not even close...) They tended to become disillusioned with a year or two if they actually got directly involved with him in business and discovered the painful truth...but those who didn't do so remained fooled indefinitely. Our various relatives mostly still think he was rich! The truth of the matter was anything but that. He drove a Jaguar and a Mercedes, but he wasn't rich. The local newspaper did an obituary column for him in which they said that he had "made his fortune in...etc., etc." What fortune???????? There was no friggin' fortune anywhere! So, yes, positive thinking is great...but as Kat said, it's not ALL that is required in order to prosper. Good judgement helps too. |
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12 Feb 10 - 12:24 PM (#2837234) Subject: RE: BS: In favour of grumpiness From: GUEST,leeneia I think that officials and leaders have a duty to be neither positive or negative in outlook. They should be clear-headed, logical and interested in the truth, whether it is good or bad. (Rotsa ruck, right?) |
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12 Feb 10 - 12:33 PM (#2837246) Subject: RE: BS: In favour of grumpiness From: Little Hawk What if exposing the truth were to threaten their professional position? ;-D |
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12 Feb 10 - 01:01 PM (#2837285) Subject: RE: BS:In favour of grumpiness: Optimism-the negatives From: gnu I am becoming much more in favour as I... ah, fuck it. |
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12 Feb 10 - 01:04 PM (#2837290) Subject: RE: BS:In favour of grumpiness: Optimism-the negatives From: SINSULL Accentuate the positive Eliminate the negative Latch on to the alternative But don't mess with Mister In-between. |
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12 Feb 10 - 01:57 PM (#2837340) Subject: Lyr Add: AC-CENT-TCHU-ATE THE POSITIVE (Mercer...) From: pdq AC-CENT-TCHU-ATE THE POSITIVE Johnny Mercer / Harold Arlen Gather 'round me, Everybody, Gather 'round me While I preach some, Feel a sermon Comin' on me. The topic will be sin And that's what I'm agin.' If you wanna Hear my story, Then settle back And just sit tight While I start reviewin' The attitude of doin' right. You've got to Ac-cent-tchu-ate the positive, E-lim-my-nate the negative, Latch on to the affirmative, Don't mess with Mister In-between. You've got to spread joy Up to the maximum, Bring gloom down to the minimum, Have faith, or pandemonium Li'ble to walk upon the scene. To illustrate my last remark, Jonah in the whale, Noah in the Ark, What did they do Just when everything looked so dark? "Man" they said, "We better Ac-cent-tchu-ate the positive, E-lim-my nate the negative, Latch on To the affirmative, Don't mess with Mister In-between." No, don't mess with Mister In-between. From the Paramount film :Here Comes the Waves. 1944. |
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12 Feb 10 - 06:12 PM (#2837599) Subject: RE: BS:In favour of grumpiness: Optimism-the negatives From: Joe_F Deficient contact with reality is called mania. Excessive contact with reality is called depression. |
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13 Feb 10 - 05:11 PM (#2838472) Subject: RE: BS:In favour of grumpiness: Optimism-the negatives From: Amergin I figure if you're grouchy all the time, people come to expect it...so when you're cheery and pleasant, it makes for a wonderful surprise for them. I like to surprise people. |
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14 Feb 10 - 04:28 PM (#2839232) Subject: RE: BS:In favour of grumpiness: Optimism-the negatives From: kendall I try to stay just on the giddy side of morose, but sometimes I fail. |
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14 Feb 10 - 05:15 PM (#2839262) Subject: RE: BS:In favour of grumpiness: Optimism-the negatives From: gnu I.... ahhh, fuck it. |
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14 Feb 10 - 05:19 PM (#2839269) Subject: RE: BS:In favour of grumpiness: Optimism-the negatives From: olddude and sometimes ya eat the bear and sometimes the bear eats you |
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14 Feb 10 - 05:24 PM (#2839273) Subject: RE: BS:In favour of grumpiness: Optimism-the negatives From: gnu Sometimes, ya just ca't bear it, Dan. |
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14 Feb 10 - 05:25 PM (#2839274) Subject: RE: BS:In favour of grumpiness: Optimism-the negatives From: Dave the Gnome I blame it all on people telling me to have a nice day... :D |
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14 Feb 10 - 07:08 PM (#2839351) Subject: RE: BS:In favour of grumpiness: Optimism-the negat From: Amos There's a world of difference between optimism and delusion. There is also a world of difference between physical universe processes and mind or spirit processes. It doesn't do anyone much good to hope for magic in a physical universe situation, like praying during an earthquake, or crossing your fingers for an electronic breadboard circuit to work right. On the other hand, dealing with elements of existence that are beyond immediate physical control a little optimism can do a great deal to reduce your stress level. Cancer is a biophysical process and it can have psychosomatic etiology; it can also have a purely physical etiology. Furthermore in the presence of a physical cause the degree to which the system can respond and correct the matter can be a purely physical extent or it, too, can have a psychosomatic component of some significance. It is foolish to cast everything into one bin and toss out babies and bath-water. A |
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14 Feb 10 - 07:21 PM (#2839364) Subject: RE: BS:In favour of grumpiness: Optimism-the negatives From: mousethief What kind of moron thinks that having positive thoughts is GUARANTEED to cure them of cancer? O..O =o= |
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14 Feb 10 - 07:29 PM (#2839374) Subject: RE: BS:In favour of grumpiness: Optimism-the negatives From: Donuel Eh Pap, wishful thinking and self delusion is not constructive HOPE but is rather an artificial surrogate of real HOPE. Mostly the collusion and corruption of Wall St. was not caused by positive thinking but rather just good old fashioned "get rich quick by any means" criminality. None the less, I understand the author's desire to write a book. |
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14 Feb 10 - 08:00 PM (#2839391) Subject: RE: BS:In favour of grumpiness: Optimism-the negatives From: Joe_F Sometimes you & the bear eat each other at once. |
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14 Feb 10 - 08:10 PM (#2839395) Subject: RE: BS:In favour of grumpiness: Optimism-the negatives From: Bill D "There is also a world of difference between physical universe processes and mind or spirit processes." Ahhh...yes... I'm sure. Kind of a linguistic/Platonic difference, perhaps... ☺ ( I think too much optimism makes me grumpy.) |
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15 Feb 10 - 02:45 AM (#2839536) Subject: RE: BS:In favour of grumpiness: Optimism-the negatives From: freda underhill :-) |
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15 Feb 10 - 10:54 AM (#2839914) Subject: RE: BS:In favour of grumpiness: Optimism-the negatives From: Dorothy Parshall Pollyannas make me furious. But a positive outlook on life certainly does help. The healthy 94 year old I met yesterday at the Chris Crilly concert being one of those good examples. Hans Selye, author of Stress Without Distress, was diagnosed with an incurable cancer. He decided he better hurry up and get his work done. The cancer apparently went away, he lived to a good age and I heard him lecture at Loyola U/Montreal in his 70s - for 3 hours with two artificial hips. On the other hand, a friend just informed me that her 13 year old daughter went through two months of such high anxiety that she could not attend school. The cause was a digestive problem which affected brain function/mood/serotonin level. She is doing fine now, able to return to school. I was surprised to find the gut affecting the brain rather than the other way around. Where do our moods originate?? As someone who is environmentally sensitive, I have learned that fragrances containing neurotoxins (most of them) can cause me to feel very angry within seconds. I have to remove myself from the area being poisoned. Before I was aware of the cause, I could be very grumpy and wonder why. We need to consider that the grumpy person may be that way for a very basic reason which has nothing to do with their true personality or who they think they are or want to be. And may have nothing to do with the apparent circumstances - what we said to them or... |
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15 Feb 10 - 11:09 AM (#2839934) Subject: RE: BS:In favour of grumpiness: Optimism-the negatives From: catspaw49 George Carlin had a great line......Only the good die young, so be a prick. Spaw |
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15 Feb 10 - 06:17 PM (#2840400) Subject: RE: BS:In favour of grumpiness: Optimism-the negatives From: Hollowfox My mother always said that it was better to be a pessamist. The optomists just sit around thinking pure thoughts and quoting Norman Vincent Peale, while the pessamists will glare, grumble, and take care of the problem because it's not going to fix itself. Me, I'm a contrarian. Although I'm a bit dour and melancholiac by nature, I'm the one that states the other point of view when someone gripes about, say, the weather: "We need the rain.""If we don't have a cold spell in winter, we won't have an apple crop; that's why apples don't grow in Guatemala." Hey, it's February in northern Ohio, and I'm being paid to stay inside a nice warm, dry building." "Have a nice day? You're telling Me to Have A Nice Day?! Stick it in your ear!" |
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16 Feb 10 - 06:19 PM (#2841370) Subject: RE: BS:In favour of grumpiness: Optimism-the negatives From: Joe_F What do we have for dinner? Grump roast. Where do we climb when we're in Britain? The Grumpians. What is our favorite story? Grumplestiltskin. What is better than a dump? A grump. What do we have in the afternoon? Tea & grumpets. |
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16 Feb 10 - 06:27 PM (#2841380) Subject: RE: BS:In favour of grumpiness: Optimism-the negatives From: GUEST,999 The negatives for sure. |
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16 Feb 10 - 06:46 PM (#2841413) Subject: RE: BS:In favour of grumpiness: Optimism-the negatives From: bobad "I was surprised to find the gut affecting the brain rather than the other way around." The Enteric Nervous System: The Brain in the Gut The gut has a mind of its own, the "enteric nervous system". Just like the larger brain in the head, researchers say, this system sends and receives impulses, records experiences and respond to emotions. Its nerve cells are bathed and influenced by the same neurotransmitters. The gut can upset the brain just as the brain can upset the gut. The gut's brain or the "enteric nervous system" is located in the sheaths of tissue lining the esophagus, stomach, small intestine and colon. Considered a single entity, it is a network of neurons, neurotransmitters and proteins that zap messages between neurons, support cells like those found in the brain proper and a complex circuitry that enables it to act independently, learn, remember and, as the saying goes, produce gut feelings. The gut's brain is reported to play a major role in human happiness and misery. Many gastrointestinal disorders like colitis and irritable bowel syndrome originate from problems within the gut's brain. Also, it is now known that most ulcers are caused by a bacterium not by hidden anger at one's mother. http://www.psyking.net/id36.htm |
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17 Feb 10 - 08:03 PM (#2842495) Subject: RE: BS:In favour of grumpiness: Optimism-the negatives From: Joe_F *Rather than*? It's all connected together. Scrooge knew where those bloody ghosts came from. |
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18 Feb 10 - 05:18 PM (#2843564) Subject: RE: BS:In favour of grumpiness: Optimism-the negat From: Dorothy Parshall Thank you, Bobad for that interesting post! |
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18 Feb 10 - 06:17 PM (#2843646) Subject: RE: BS:In favour of grumpiness: Optimism-the negatives From: McGrath of Harlow "Hope for the best, prepare for the worst" seems the most sensible way of dealing with life. If "positive" means ignoring the second half of that, and "negative" means ignoring the first half, they are equally daft. |
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18 Feb 10 - 06:23 PM (#2843657) Subject: RE: BS:In favour of grumpiness: Optimism-the negatives From: Dave MacKenzie I'm a poitive thinking pessimistic Calvinist, and I'm always cheerful because I'm hardly ever disappointed. |
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18 Feb 10 - 08:04 PM (#2843743) Subject: RE: BS:In favour of grumpiness: Optimism-the negatives From: Suegorgeous That "Have a nice day" makes my blood boil (yes, I'm one of the grumps). Still haven't once worked up the courage, though, to give the correct reply to this, which is: "Thank you, but I have other plans". |
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18 Feb 10 - 08:12 PM (#2843748) Subject: RE: BS:In favour of grumpiness: Optimism-the negatives From: Dave MacKenzie I don't do nice. |
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18 Feb 10 - 08:33 PM (#2843755) Subject: RE: BS:In favour of grumpiness: Optimism-the negatives From: GUEST,999 Humbug! |
