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06 Mar 10 - 05:21 PM (#2857862) Subject: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Richard Bridge I wanted to say "least acceptable" but title length is insufficient. Is it: - Lord Ancram, the tax non-dom who undertook to become fully UK tax resident in order to be given a peerage and now sits in the HoL, is the Deputy Chairman of the Conservative Party - and STILL a tax non-dom to the amazement of most tax lawyers; Rupert Murdoch who buys and sells Prime Ministers each erection (sorry, election) and has now bullied the BBC into disembowelling itself for his approval; Donal Blaney (now there's a nice English name) who is alas a solicitor from Kent but also the chief executive of YBF (Young Britons' Federation) the "Tory Madrasa" that runs courses for the conservatices on media training and who advocates the legitimacy of waterboarding, police shooting of environmental protesters who trespass, and US gun-nut style firearms availability in the UK; Lord Woolf, whose "reforms" have destroyed both "legal aid" (as it used to be called) the ethos that lawyers' work should be complete and accurate in favour of brevity at all costs and now proposes to take the administration of "legal aid" under political control to make sure that the poor accused of politically sensitive "crimes" do not get a fair trial. "Dick" Griffin about whom you all know. |
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06 Mar 10 - 05:33 PM (#2857875) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: John MacKenzie Michael Heseltine, who in an excess of self love split the Tory Party. Tony Benn, who in an excess of self love split the Labour Party. Doctrinaire socialists who still blame Maggie Thatcher for all the ills of the UK, in spite of there having been a Labour [sic] government in office for 10 years. |
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06 Mar 10 - 05:55 PM (#2857892) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: akenaton The remnants of the Blair government.....they must all be removed regardless of who replaces them Labour, to be effective, must be a party of opposition. It must oppose the excesses of Capitalism......In power Labour becomes an enabling agent for the system. |
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06 Mar 10 - 06:59 PM (#2857925) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Royston Bravo, Ake. No pasaran! I can't believe I just typed those words. The truth is the truth. |
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06 Mar 10 - 07:16 PM (#2857938) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Don(Wyziwyg)T And it might be more balanced to include the Brown Government's own Non-Doms, for it does have several. Don T. |
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06 Mar 10 - 07:30 PM (#2857946) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Richard Bridge Heseltine was only barely an influence and now (like Portillo) happily is not. Benn was an excellent influence, a man of conscience, like Foot, but has alas been marginalised by the heritage of greed from the bitch Thatcher. Thatcher alas created a mindset that still paralyses all tendencies for good and those who cannot or lie that they do not see that are still forces for evil. Long may she and all whom she loved twist in the fires of hell. We have, in electoral terms a choice of the venal New Labour or the outright evil conservatives. No contest. If and when we have a real electoral choice the Lib Dems might be interesting, save that their current pronunciamentos are made in the heady liberty of abstraction: they will not be faced with any imminent risk of having to deliver. New Labour or Labour in opposition can achieve nothing, albeit we must not surrender if we are to have hope. You may wish to condemn Brown (even if he is a clever bastard as his latest manoueverings show) but if you have a choice between him and the Etonians whose only purpose is further to enrich and empower the rich and powerful you can have only one view as a matter of principle. If your misapprehension as to personal benefit leads you to support the Etonians, then unless you are an Etonian you are a quisling. And if you are an Etonian then joint the Eton Rifles for you will need them in your oen defence. |
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06 Mar 10 - 07:32 PM (#2857948) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Dead Horse I dont think there are any that ARE acceptable. Dear Margaret did a lot to forward the cause of socialism, but Blair threw it all away and made those Tory buggers electable again. I will never forgive him for that. As for the third party - what third party? |
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06 Mar 10 - 07:40 PM (#2857956) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Richard Bridge There is of course what Arthur Scargill would describe as the fourth party. I ahve a great deal of time for him. |
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06 Mar 10 - 08:18 PM (#2857980) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Royston Indeed, Richard. Some blame Scargill for weakening the labour movement by 'splitting' to start the SLP, but the truth is that Scargill et al became the labour movement when others stole the political party away from us and made it something else entirely. |
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06 Mar 10 - 09:27 PM (#2858014) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Paul Burke Doctrinaire socialists who still blame Maggie Thatcher for all the ills of the UK, in spite of there having been a Labour [sic] government in office for 10 years. Sorry- you think there's a contradiction in that sentence? |
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07 Mar 10 - 01:11 AM (#2858082) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: MGM·Lion Richard ~ just in interests of accuracy in OP ~~ Lord ASHTON, surely, not 'Ancram' (& not of course to be confused with worthy old Paddy, ex Lib-Dem leader who a good egg in his way). Inaccuracy alienates people. |
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07 Mar 10 - 02:41 AM (#2858106) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Richard Bridge Ashcroft! Oops all round. I may also have ascribed too much influence to Woolf as well in laying quite so many attacks on decent legal services at his door. |
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07 Mar 10 - 03:08 AM (#2858112) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: DMcG Ratheer than any individual, I'd point the finger at the whipping system, which only a handful on Members (on all sides) have the integrity to withstand. So I see the recebt changes to take appointment of committee chairs out of their hands as a small but important step Naturally they will seek (and find) other ways to exert their power, but its a step in the right direction. |
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07 Mar 10 - 03:20 AM (#2858116) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Dave Hanson Greed is the nastiest influence in UK politics, it's a way of life for the Torys and this last lot of MPs of all persuasions just saw Parliament as a means to make themselves rich and fuck the honest people on low wages who can't tax dodge and have to pay for it all. Dave H |
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07 Mar 10 - 03:30 AM (#2858117) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: MGM·Lion Oops! I meant Ashcroft too; not Ashdown. Sorry. Let's get him right even if a nasty... |
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07 Mar 10 - 03:52 AM (#2858122) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Rasener Surely the nastiest influences in UK politics are the people currently running the country. Not to want to LABOUR the point. |
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07 Mar 10 - 04:46 AM (#2858138) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Royston You're right, Villan, scandalous bunch of unprincipled muggers. Did you see that "Tower House of Commons" program with the numpty from Hull - a typical example of Labour/Working Class sell-out to Thatcherism in the '80s. Just like Prescott. This is what, I think, Ake meant by Labour needing to be a party of opposition. Once they are in power it's like Orwell's 'Animal Farm'. At least with the Tories nothing more is promised and there is less disappointment. |
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07 Mar 10 - 04:52 AM (#2858140) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Richard Bridge Villan, you must have a short memory indeed. The purpose of conservatism is to prevent change and to entrench power and privilege. It is what its name means. The present lot, who have hardly a true socialist among them, are babes in arms beside the conservatives when it comes to evil. But come on, consider the core behaviours of those I have nominated and see who you will propose to stand alongside them? If you want to list evil "New Labour" people, there are some obvious candidates The Liars who took us to war again The willowy and profitable Mandelbaum (yes, MGM, I know his real name) The career liars like Campbell But can you put your hand on your heart and say that any of them are as much strangers to good as my nominees? |
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07 Mar 10 - 05:06 AM (#2858147) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Rasener Personally Richard, all parties are as bad as each other and will bullshit their way to power and will continue bullshitting all through their reign. I just think it is wrong to blame the conservatives who haven't been in power for over 10 years for the wrongs at the moment. Its a bit like sticking your head in the sand. |
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07 Mar 10 - 05:09 AM (#2858152) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: MGM·Lion Well, then, please get his name right, Richard: just coz Mandy happens to be a [later-generation] old boy of my old school, Hendon County; which makes me feel sort of irrationally proprietary & protective, tho have never met him ~ the way one does for some reason. Haven't much else to say for him, mind. {Why, btw, is that remark addressed specifically to me ~ is it becoz, as someone wrote on another message·board website I am a regular on, "MtheGM's pedantry is legendary"?: meant as a putdown no doubt; but counterproductively so, as you will gather from my quoting it around these parts whenever oppo arises...!} |
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07 Mar 10 - 06:24 AM (#2858190) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: theleveller One of the most obnoxious people, though I doubt that he has much influenece, is MEP Godfrey Bloom, of the equally obbnoxious UKIP Party. Bloom epitomises this bunch of wasters and spoilers with his racist, sexist and mysanthropic outburts. Even Alan Sked, the on-time founder of UKIP, is appalled by the eway the party has gone and suggests that they should join with the BNP. I have the misfortune live in the same village as Bloom and he is, without doubt, one of the most arrogant and unspeakable people I have ever met. |
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07 Mar 10 - 06:38 AM (#2858197) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""Villan, you must have a short memory indeed. The purpose of conservatism is to prevent change and to entrench power and privilege. It is what its name means. The present lot, who have hardly a true socialist among them, are babes in arms beside the conservatives when it comes to evil."" With the evidence to the contrary staring you right in the face, you still can't see the inherent fallacy of your expressed viewpoint Richard. Over the last thirteen years (not ten), we have had a government which calls itself labour, and is a complete and total perversion of eveything the labour movement stands for. Look at the achievements (or lack of achievement) of those years, and one simple fact becomes very clear. There are so many parallels, that the Blair/Brown regime is exposed as being more Thatcherite than Cameron could ever hope to be. My point is this. Given the change in labour party, to win in 1997, is it really so unbelievable that Cameron and Co may also have changed from the Tories of Thatcher's time. I know you have this reverse snobbery attitude to Etonians, Richard, but Thatcher was the daughter of a grocer, hardly a member of that group. Don T. |
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07 Mar 10 - 06:52 AM (#2858203) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influences in UK politics From: peregrina Greed. Marketism. Moral vacuum of overemphasising measureable outcomes rather than intrinsic goods. Overemphasis on target-guided policy and practice. Emphasis profit-making sector over the 'gift' activities of care for the very young and very old, the arts, creative expression, teaching. Short-term concern with... re-election/expansion/institutional or party perpetuation rather than the common future of people and the planet. Compassion seen as a weakness. |
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07 Mar 10 - 07:19 AM (#2858219) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Dave the Gnome The nastiest influences in UK politics Politicians? DeG |
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07 Mar 10 - 07:23 AM (#2858221) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Richard Bridge MGM - the remark was addressed to you because of our mutual cockup about the king of Belize (which happily rhymes with "sleaze"). You really really think, Don, that Cameron will pursue any socially beneficial policies if erected? The Sieg Heil brigade are already and transparently re-planning "Kinder, Kuche, und Kirche" for women. But back onto track - it's the individual malign self-seekers I'm after spotlighting - and apart from the hasbeen Fettes public schoolboy, the profitable Mandelbaum, and possibly the conversion of the Kinnocks to the pigtrough in Brussels, what has New Labour (or even Old Labour if we discount T Dan Smith) got to compare with the transparent denial of democracy posed by those I named above (including the modern-day vicar of Bray on steroids, Murdoch). They would need duck-houses big enough for a Spruce Goose. |
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07 Mar 10 - 07:41 AM (#2858237) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: bubblyrat I suggest that Richard's hatred & loathing of people who have attended Eton (and,presumably,Harrow,et al)is a reaction to his not having been invited to attend such an establishment himself ?? His comments about Mrs Thatcher are unnecessary,ungentlemanly,boorish,and in extremely poor taste for someone of his standing. Let us hope that he does not enter the political arena in any capacity. |
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07 Mar 10 - 08:26 AM (#2858268) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: GUEST,mauvepink So many appear to have lost their integrity integrity a long time ago sadly. So few politicians actually stand out against the crowd now for good reasons. The two main parties seem so alike they should amalgamate and save some joint expenses. Do any of them have any sense of reality at all about the lives of those on under £20,000 a year and how many have an idea on how to live on less a week than one of them would spend on a single meal out? They want a relationship with the public. They should know that any realtionship worth having is based on trust. Without trust there is nothing that can be built upon. Having thought about what is to come my Sunday is quite ruined. Does anyone see hope in the near future for us? mp |
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07 Mar 10 - 09:26 AM (#2858293) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Richard Bridge Ratty, my school won the public schools' fives several years on the trot and held the Bisley Cottesloe vase for several years too. Eton and Harrow hold no fears for me, but so many of their output are so damaging to the country. They are taught to think only of themselves and their kind, and that is what they do. It is more that I despise them than hate and loathe them. Thatcher? Even if she had been male she would never have been a gentleman: a true boor's boor - as prejudiced as a boer, too, with the grace of a boar. Don't you know that even at school she was known as "Bossy Roberts"? However, I perceive that with the customary stupidity of a conservative, you are unable to address the actual point about the abuse of power to beget power. |
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07 Mar 10 - 09:37 AM (#2858297) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: mauvepink I have no recollection before Margaret Thatcher of any political party becoming known for its brand of leader. Was Thatcherism the first time that the political type of the party was changed to the political type of its leader? Thatcherism was a brand of its own it seems that was removed from Conservatism? Some saw the brand as a good thing. Many found to their loss it was not. Where did true socialism go to as well? Who was it's last great evangelist politically? Has anyone ever had a brand of politics named in this way before or since Margaret Thatcher? mp |
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07 Mar 10 - 09:49 AM (#2858305) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: GUEST Greed. Marketism. Moral vacuum of overemphasising measureable outcomes rather than intrinsic goods. Overemphasis on target-guided policy and practice. Emphasis profit-making sector over the 'gift' activities of care for the very young and very old, the arts, creative expression, teaching. Short-term concern with... re-election/expansion/institutional or party perpetuation rather than the common future of people and the planet. Compassion seen as a weakness. Thatcherism in a paragraph (NuLab being 'Thatcherism lite', of course). Thanks Peregrina. |
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07 Mar 10 - 10:10 AM (#2858311) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: sapper82 Interesting how Richard accuses people of having short memories whilst failing to recall what led up to the election of Margarete Thatcher. The trade union anarchy that was coming close to destroying this country. The "untouchable" industries of ship building and steel that refused to modernise in the face of foreign competition, soaking up massive subsidies in the process, yet still walked out on strike at the slightest pretext. The howling savagery of the Grunwick picket line where rent-a-mob activists, using a union recognition dispute concerning a minority of workers from the firm, tried to prevent the rest of the workforce from exercising their right to go to work without intimidation or threats. The workers who, under the foul abomination of "The Closed Shop" were forced into joining a union as a condition of being allowed to work. The trade union leaders who were more than happy to declare solidarity with the Workers' Paradises of the USSR and China. For too long the British Worker has been fooled into believing that the clique of middle and upperclass "Hampstead Thinkers" that constituted the upper heirarchy of the Labour Party actually had their best interests at heart. I agree Maggie was a long way from being perfect and that she did make mistakes, but most of her actions were necessary. The reason why they were as painfull as they were is entirely due to the cowardice of previous governments in failing to get to grips with the problems earlier. |
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07 Mar 10 - 10:14 AM (#2858312) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: sapper82 As a further point, Richard, surely the nastiest influence in British Politics was that of those left wing persons, including the late Michael Foot, who looked to the USSR and other communist regimes, for inspiration and financial support? |
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07 Mar 10 - 10:22 AM (#2858316) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Emma B The British system provides for a government cabinet in which the prime minister is, at least in theory, first among equals Over Thatcher's 11 years in power, critics complained that cabinet government became something of a private joke. - there was the wonderful contemporary joke "The Thatcher cabinet are sitting in a restaurant. The waiter asks Margaret Thatcher for her order and she replies "Raw Meat". The waiter then asks "And for the vegetables?" to which Thatcher replies "Oh, they'll have the same". Many of the strongest personalities left, driven out by her insistence on personally controlling policy until, in the end, she was left with a cabinet that was far less experienced and usually reluctant to contradict or challenge her. Historian Martin Gilbert, author of an eight-volume biography of Churchill.wrote of her ``Both of them (Thatcher and Churchill) also understood that the essence of leadership was to choose a course of action you knew to be the right one and stay with it, and not try to achieve compromise in order to have an easy ride whether in cabinet or Parliament " Nevertheless, during WW2 Churchill was very much still a part of a wartime cabinet as released documents demonstrate. There have been many assertions that Thatcher 'destroyed' the cabinet system creating a much more presidential figure. Blair stepped neatly into these shoes and probably suceeded in putting the final nail into the coffin of 'first amongst equals' whose methods were described by Barbara Castle, a former minister, as - no minister presented any policy to Cabinet. Instead, Mr Blair drew up his own version and discussed it with the minister and departmental civil service head. An agreement would be thrashed out "and then they railroaded it through Cabinet" With the deliberate destruction of cabinet government so we get Thatcherism, Blairism etc.... |
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07 Mar 10 - 10:37 AM (#2858335) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Emma B Ive never been a proponent of 'de mortuis nil nisi bonum dicendum est' but I think it is a low blow, not to mention wildly inaccurate, to describe the recently deceased Michael Foot (who received tributes from friends and foes alike of all political colours for his honesty and integrity) as one of the nastiest influences in British Politics. Just my opinion...... |
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07 Mar 10 - 10:44 AM (#2858344) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Bonzo3legs Ratty, my school won the public schools' fives several years on the trot and held the Bisley Cottesloe vase for several years too. Ah we played fives at Queen Elizabeth's Grammar School, Barnet. |
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07 Mar 10 - 10:51 AM (#2858347) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: theleveller "those left wing persons, including the late Michael Foot, who looked to the USSR and other communist regimes, for inspiration and financial support? " Sapper, I'd be genuinely interested in seeing your evidence of this. Please quote chapter and verse. Actually, probably the nastiest thing about politics is the voting system which needs to be reformed to refelect the true will of the majority of British people. And while we're at it, let's have a proper constitution which includes getting rid of the monarchy once and for all and spares us from any more idiocy from that unelected, ignorant and ridiculously expensive Windsor family. |
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07 Mar 10 - 11:36 AM (#2858368) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: mauvepink I, personally, would love to see proportional representation on the voting books. It seems far more fair and gives less chance to autocracy. The pity of it all being that while we preach democracy to the world the actual cabinet system does indeed seem more autocratic of late. I see nothing wrong with having a strong leader but when they virtually get rid of any opposition to their own closed views we have dangerous precedents being set. Is autocracy needed in a democracy or is it step closer to the dictatorships that democracy is meant to stop happening? We keep seeing civil liberties being eroded all the time. That, too, is dangerously close to heading toward a direction many have given their lives to free us from mp |
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07 Mar 10 - 12:32 PM (#2858396) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""I think it is a low blow, not to mention wildly inaccurate, to describe the recently deceased Michael Foot (who received tributes from friends and foes alike of all political colours for his honesty and integrity) as one of the nastiest influences in British Politics."" And as a Tory, I heartily concur. A Labour party with the likes of Clement Attlee, Tony Benn, Michael Foot, John Smith, Bob Marshall-Andrews, and yes Neil Kinnock too at its heart, would at least make me seriously consider voting Labour. These men were genuine socialists. What have we had instead? Since I became old enough to vote, Wilson (arch crook), Callaghan (Ineffective bumbler), Blair (empty shell), and Brown (miserable Mr Bean, lurching from crisis to disaster and back again). Labour (not socialism, because they are not synonyms) has brought this country low at every opportunity since 1964. They devalued our money, and handed sovereignty over to Brussels. At least Maggie, with handbag swinging, won some concessions from the EU, all of which, and more, Blair and Brown handed back. I feel much the same about ersatz "working class" politicians, as RB does about "Etonian Aristos". Does anyone really believe that the current mob, on £60,000+ per year, and expecting a rise of £1000, know, or give a shit, about the working classes. They regard us as the gullible twerps who go on voting for them because our fathers did, and I'm not all that sure that they're wrong. Don T. |
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07 Mar 10 - 12:35 PM (#2858400) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Lizzie Cornish 1 "The nastiest influence in UK politics" Arrogance Ignorance Greed Corruption Dishonesty Selfishness Lack of Empathy Lack of Humility Lack of True Leaders Lack of Integrity Lack of Wisdom Lack of Spirituality Lack of Concern Lack of Common Sense Lack of Joined Up Thinking Lack of Understanding Lack of Embarrassment Lack of real human beings who care more about their country, the people of that country and the people around the globle, than anything else in the universe. |
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07 Mar 10 - 12:36 PM (#2858402) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Lizzie Cornish 1 'globle' is a little known independant State, just north of Manchester.. |
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07 Mar 10 - 12:49 PM (#2858415) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: mauvepink Don't mince your words do you Lizzie? ;-) However... I think you may have said what a great many, myself included, think these days. It has not always been the same. I am sure not all MP's are bad or uber-selfish. Nor would I believe it that they all were. But so many seem so totally out of touch now and have done a good job of affirming most of the things you mention above. Any of them that stands up on principles and does not tow the party line soon gets put down. Loss of trust often comes with betrayal, if in fact you have any trust in the first place that you can grab hold of, and when betrayal happens it has a crushing effect on its victims. :-( mp |
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07 Mar 10 - 06:58 PM (#2858682) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: CET Well, he doesn't have much influence I suppose, but it's hard to get any nastier than the man who wrote: "Thatcher alas created a mindset that still paralyses all tendencies for good and those who cannot or lie that they do not see that are still forces for evil. Long may she and all whom she loved twist in the fires of hell." |
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07 Mar 10 - 07:33 PM (#2858705) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: akenaton If only the left had someone with the political accumen and vision of Mrs Thatcher, her "right to buy" scheme was a masterstroke, making full use of left hypocrisy to turn working class Britain, "Conservative" overnight, with the added advantage that all the discount money could be retrieved through the banking and mortgage system. Of course, the nastiest influence in the UK and the world at large is Capitalism....everyone with more than two conjoined brain cells knows this, the problem has always been what do we replace it with, yet cause the minimum of damage to the huge centres of population constructed by the capitalist system. Socialism is simply a device to take the rough edges off the present system and could never be seriously regarded as an alternative. Socialism is really of more value to the leaders of Capitalism as a "safety valve", than to the dispossesed or the worker ants. I think perhaps we have regressed to such an extent socially that we have no chance of changing a system built on greed and envy for one based on personal freedom and happiness. |
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07 Mar 10 - 09:07 PM (#2858749) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Richard Bridge Regrettably, having started this thread I shall now have to leave it. |
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08 Mar 10 - 05:19 AM (#2858943) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Stu "I think perhaps we have regressed to such an extent socially that we have no chance of changing a system built on greed and envy for one based on personal freedom and happiness." I don't believe this Ake (or in my naivety I choose not too), and I think there is hope for some sort of return to the politics of ideals rather than economics. I think socialism has a role to play in modern society as does capitalism. Capitalism is not an intrinsically bad system but it's utterly incapable of self-regulation and this is where some sort of socialist-based system of government could make a difference. Take the capitalists ability to ride roughshod over everything and everyone in order to turn a profit and force them via legislation to take responsibility for their actions, both at home and abroad. I'm not talking about Kenynesian economic intervention here, but a step beyond that. The re-nationalisation of the country's infrastructure and the NHS would be a start, and the building of new council houses and the abandonment of the Trident upgrade would also be a priority. One of the main problems with modern politics is the lack of any intellectuals or deep political thinkers engaged in mainstream political life. Thatcher and the tories balk at the use of the term 'intellectual' even; it doesn't tie in with their boorish world view that money is the god we should all worship. Heck, it's been bandied about on this site enough as an insult and that really does show how dumbed-down we've become. Blair continued with Thatcher's work in this regard, surrounding himself with execrable media wonks like Alistair Campbell and spineless yes-men (and women) instead of people with some sort of sound or original ideological pedigree; the same gutless tossers who were pickpocketing the taxpayers whilst still having the gall to pay lip service to the party's socialist roots. Cameron on the other hand, is being seen for what is. Bereft of any policies at all, playing constantly to the (press) gallery and struggling to hide the class prejudice that runs through the party like letters through rock it seems like the rest of the country might have cottoned on to the fact the Emperor is in the nip. Surrounded by his raffish buddies (with the exception of Eric Pickles, the rank outsider left in the team to fool that most gullible of buffoons, the working-class tory that they give a shit), Cameron can feel the proles and plebs slipping away from him as people realise that even though Gordon comes across as a bit media-unsavvy it might be better the devil you know rather than handing over the country to the toffs and supercilious, elitist whelps that make up the shadow cabinet. We need original thinkers back in politics; both sides are in danger of sliding into an American-style political morass of commercial-led decisions taking precedence over the well-being of their citizens. Perhaps we're already there, if so it would be a sad betrayal of all the radicals and reformists that have gone before us and made our collective political heritage the treasure-house of wisdom through struggle it is. |
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08 Mar 10 - 05:48 AM (#2858961) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Bryn Pugh What theleveller said, supra. I agree with every word Richard Bridge has written. Problem is, I am effectively disenfranchised. IMO you couldn't put a ciggie paper between Cameron and Brown. In the UK since Thatcher got into power (and for all I know, long before then), you can vote for so-called "left-wing" conservatism, under the nom de jeu New Labour ; or you can vote for so-called "right wing Conservatism", headed by Cameron. (Oh, before I am taken to task, the juxtaposition of the closing quotation marks is deliberate). As to someone's comments above on Grunwick, I was on the picket line - were you ? Mrs Desai is a working class hero. When she spoke at an antiNF rally in Manchester many years ago, Tom Jackson and some of his big lads were there to protect her. I look at New Labour, and the only satisfaction I can get is in the knowledge that it is not the party which I fought, and literally bled, for. I am, alas, too old for 'lumps' these days. Stick around, please, Richard - your country needs you. Don't hand the fascist twits an easy victory. |
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08 Mar 10 - 06:08 AM (#2858986) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""Of course, the nastiest influence in the UK and the world at large is Capitalism"" I agree with most of the rest of your comments Ake, and if you could stand to change one word we would agree on this also. You see, I really believe that it is not Capitalism per se, but its big brother "Corporatism" which you are really talking about. Your local farmer, Undertaker, and taxi driver, are all Capitalists in the sense that they operate their own business,and control the means to do so. It is the amalgamation of small business into these giant conglomerates which gives rise to the kind of soulless, uncaring,greed, which we both abhor. Don T. |
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08 Mar 10 - 06:33 AM (#2858996) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""In the UK since Thatcher got into power (and for all I know, long before then), you can vote for so-called "left-wing" conservatism, under the nom de jeu New Labour ; or you can vote for so-called "right wing Conservatism", headed by Cameron."" As an expression of ignorance of the situation, this is a classic. By no stretch of the imagination can Cameron be called a "right wing Tory". The right wing hate the sight of him, purely because he has moved the party so far from the Thatcher ideals. But he has the clout, and they've had to wind their necks in. I should have thought that some might have noticed his immediate reaction to the expenses scandal. "Pay back or you don't stand for election as a Tory candidate". Stated on the day of the revelations. When did Brown follow suit?.....Well, never, actually. Don T. |
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08 Mar 10 - 07:08 AM (#2859018) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Bryn Pugh Well, Don T, if I am in "ignorance of the situation" (Ipssissima verba) perhaps you will kindly enlighten me ? This is a genuine request, not a snide side swipe. You see, I neglected to interpolate "IMO" after "Thatcher got into power". |
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08 Mar 10 - 07:35 AM (#2859041) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: theleveller That meddling oaf, Charlie Windsor, is a pretty nasty influence in politics. Baroness Quin, a former New Labour euro MP and member of the Privy Council, has called his interference potentially "unconstitutional" in her new book The British Constitution, Continuity and Change – an Inside View. She also says he is unfit to be king. I'd go further and say that the monarchy has no place in Britain in this day and age. |
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08 Mar 10 - 08:40 AM (#2859085) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Stu Agreed leveller. |
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08 Mar 10 - 09:06 AM (#2859109) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Dave the Gnome I am sure I posted this but the mudcat post eater must have found it particularly tasty:-) As I pointed out earlier the common factor in all the nastiest influences are politicians. I cannot repeat often enough that in any other walk of life if someone was to say they knew best and could run millions of peoples lives they would be locked up. What do we do? Vote teh daft buggers in! Answer? The Gnomish benign dictatorship! I don't know best or have all the answers but it would stop you wondering who was the lesser of the evils:-) Cheers DeG |
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08 Mar 10 - 09:27 AM (#2859127) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Bryn Pugh Seconded, leveller - another spot on comment. Charles Windsor has no relevance to 21st century UK - jesus - United Kingdom, gods help us. I have nothing agaist the present monarch, but when she carks it, I think it time and high time to put these parasites - especially that one with the jug-handle lugs - out to grass. I shan't live to see the Britannic Republic ; but I reckons me grandkids will. King Charles - the Last. |
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08 Mar 10 - 11:40 AM (#2859221) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Nigel Parsons Charles Windsor has no relevance to 21st century UK - jesus - United Kingdom, gods help us. At least his family seem willing to lead by example in the war effort (whether or not we should be at war is another matter), Andrew in the Falklands, Harry in Afghanistan. Those who started the wars (Blair, Brown et al) don't seem to follow the example. |
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08 Mar 10 - 12:18 PM (#2859257) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Lizzie Cornish 1 It's also Division and Teams. My country is now in such a horrifying mess that all the major parties should put their differences aside and ccme together to do all they can to unite everyone and everything for the Good. But they won't, because they're all too damned busy bashing hell out of each other's teams. |
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08 Mar 10 - 12:26 PM (#2859264) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Little Hawk The nastiest influence in UK politics would most certainly be Olive Whatnoll...if she decided to get involved in politics. Fortunately, she has not done so. |
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08 Mar 10 - 12:29 PM (#2859267) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Lizzie Cornish 1 LOL |
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08 Mar 10 - 12:31 PM (#2859268) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: MBSGeorge Personally I would say that the nastiest influence comes from those MPs who decided to claim for things that they shouldn't stealing money fom all people living in the UK! MBSG |
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08 Mar 10 - 12:46 PM (#2859280) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Linda Kelly I believe we get the politicians we deserve-they reflect all the bile greed and self obsession that we find in Britain today - how easy it is to point a finger at the greed of others as we load up our credit cards and ignore the plight of our elderly neighbours-how we moan at social services when an old person dies alone but never bother to knock on the door ourselves or report a child cryiing in the night . how we don't get involved out of fear of injury or because it will make us late for a journey-we can change our politicians every 4 years-when are we going to start changing ourselves. |
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08 Mar 10 - 03:16 PM (#2859408) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: theleveller The only thing nastier than Godfrey Bloom in the area I live is, of course, the nasty fascist BNP thug, Andrew Brons, but there are plenty of people working to make sure he never gets elected again. His election may actually have done some good as it has united people against the BNP. |
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08 Mar 10 - 08:49 PM (#2859686) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""You see, I neglected to interpolate "IMO" after "Thatcher got into power""" Had you done so, Bryn, my response would have been entirely different. I respect your opinion, as I would expect you to respect mine. Given your take on New Labour, and the fact that we are all suffering the effects of their policies, I should have thought that a left wing Tory might be a viable option, at least until Labour remembers what it is supposed to represent. To vote Green, LibDem or any other fringe party is, depending on where you live, either a vote for Labour or a vote for the Tories, so you really might as well bite the bullet, and choose which. Don T. |
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09 Mar 10 - 03:19 AM (#2859815) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Keith A of Hertford G W Bush is involving himself in the politics of Northern Ireland. Does that count?http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8556804.stm |
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09 Mar 10 - 07:55 AM (#2859976) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: A Wandering Minstrel Can we just scotch that old chestnut once and for all. A vote for the Lib Dems is a vote for the Lib Dems. It is just that the first-past-the-post voting system robs such a voter of his enfranchisement. The fact is were all just sick of having it stuck to us by the bankers and the politicians. Until the status quo changes then we can bet that "the government will get in" and then screw the rest of us over once again. |
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09 Mar 10 - 04:47 PM (#2860456) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Bonzo3legs You will like to know that domicile does not determine tax status - residence does, and their are very strict rules applied. A man cannot help his domicile, but can surely worm his way into residence/non residence or not ordinarily residence. True to form the gutter press have got it all wrong. |
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09 Mar 10 - 05:16 PM (#2860494) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Richard Bridge I think you need to qualify that Bonzo - I think some rules apply differently. Unless you are a tax inspector in which case I do not wish to annoy you, at least while using my real name. |
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09 Mar 10 - 05:43 PM (#2860526) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Rasener Bollocks is the nastiest influence in the UK. Namely, it's all a load of bollocks. |
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09 Mar 10 - 08:02 PM (#2860616) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""Can we just scotch that old chestnut once and for all. A vote for the Lib Dems is a vote for the Lib Dems. It is just that the first-past-the-post voting system robs such a voter of his enfranchisement."" Old chestnut or not, for all practical purposes, voting for a party which can't win is just the same as not voting at all, and is bound to benefit one of the two parties which can win. Taking me to task over the semantics doesn't alter the practicality. Better to hold your nose, and pick the one you least despise, lest you get the one you most despise. Wasting your vote as a matter of principle, is still a futile gesture. Don T. |
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10 Mar 10 - 03:24 AM (#2860754) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Richard Bridge Regrettably I must agree with Don on the theory - but I can only disagree with him on which is the lesser of the two weevils (joke from the Hornblower series). You have a choice between reluctant captives of the Thatcher legacy, or wolves (and toffs amongst wolves at that) in sheeps' clothing. None of that, however, was the point of the thread. It was about individuals systematically (and to a material extent, successfully) seeking to suborn the democratic process. On that basis I can only infer that no-one does know of any such more worthy of condemnation than those I selected, and, moreover, that there is no such attempted subornation deriving from the left. Or from any religion. |
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10 Mar 10 - 03:25 AM (#2860755) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Richard Bridge And perhaps I had better say this separately - preferably without any fluffy-headed gibbering. |
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10 Mar 10 - 03:50 AM (#2860766) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: theleveller "Old chestnut or not, for all practical purposes, voting for a party which can't win is just the same as not voting at all," Unless, of course, there's a hung parliament, as seems likely. I, for one, will vote for what I believe in and that will be the Green Party, if they field a local candidate. I think it's a waste voting for Labour or the Conservatives; that's what democracy is all about, Don. |
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10 Mar 10 - 03:58 AM (#2860773) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: theleveller Actually, Don, your remarks are very similar to what my grtandfather told me was said to him when he joined the Labour Party before the first world war (that, of course, had little in common with today's New Labour). Votes can change things - maybe not in a short time, but certainly in a lifetime. |
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10 Mar 10 - 08:04 AM (#2860911) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: A Wandering Minstrel Quote: voting for a party which can't win is just the same as not voting at all Thats always the answer that gets trotted out, but if enough of us do it, then they CAN win. With the poll narrowing so much, a small number of votes may make the difference especially in marginals. As The Leveller points out, this is the basis of democracy. |
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10 Mar 10 - 10:15 AM (#2861004) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Nigel Parsons which is the lesser of the two weevils (joke from the Hornblower series). Unless the joke's been re-used, I think you'll find it was the feature film "Master & Commander the far side of the world (2003)" Cheers Nigel |
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10 Mar 10 - 10:21 AM (#2861010) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""Unless, of course, there's a hung parliament, as seems likely. I, for one, will vote for what I believe in and that will be the Green Party, if they field a local candidate. I think it's a waste voting for Labour or the Conservatives; that's what democracy is all about, Don."" Even a hung Parliament will still mean government by either Tory, or Labour, MPs. If the LibDems have the sense to cherrypick the policies from both which are most beneficial to the Nation, then a hung parliament can work to everybody's best interest. I have to tell you that on the three occasions during my voting lifetime that there has been a hung parliament, they have abdicated the responsibility, and backed the party which offered the biggest bribe (usually some form of PR), and later reneged. That party was Labour (not New Labour, but the genuine one). I see no reason to assume that they will do any different this time. BTW, whatever gave you the weird notion that we live in a democracy? The last of those was 2500 years ago, at the other end of Europe. Constitutional Monarchy nate! Like it or not, that's what we live in. Don T. |
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10 Mar 10 - 10:22 AM (#2861011) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Richard Bridge Surely Hornblower predates: TV series 1998 to 2003, and books 1937 to 1967. |
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10 Mar 10 - 10:27 AM (#2861015) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""Regrettably I must agree with Don on the theory - but I can only disagree with him on which is the lesser of the two weevils (joke from the Hornblower series)."" You will no doubt have noticed, Richard, that I was careful to suggest only the choice between two alternatives. It is not my place to tell anyone which alternative to espouse. I'm laying myself open to quite enough vitriol on this rather left oriented forum, by honestly stating which party I support. I can always content myself with the knowledge that I am not responsible for the actions of any fool other than myself. Don T. |
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10 Mar 10 - 11:10 AM (#2861047) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Little Hawk An excellent way to look at it, Don! ;-D |
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10 Mar 10 - 11:16 AM (#2861055) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Rasener A hung Parliament! Whata a wonderful idea. Lets hang the lot. :-) |
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10 Mar 10 - 02:00 PM (#2861187) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""A hung Parliament! Whata a wonderful idea. Lets hang the lot. :-)"" It is tempting, isn't it Les? But we might need to remember who took over when the Soviet government collapsed. Ours might all be crooks, but they are, in the main, inept and incompetent crooks. Would we be wise to invite a takeover by crooks who are good at it? Don T. |
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12 Mar 10 - 10:12 AM (#2862612) Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics From: Bonzo3legs Non Domicile and liability to UK tax - not easy to summarise, but when non-domiciled in the UK, liability to UK tax may well arise depending upon whether Resident and Ordinarily Resident, Resident and not Ordinarily Resident or Not Resident, and whether income arises from Employment duties performed wholly or partly in the UK and Employment duties performed wholly outside the UK. To further cloud the picture, if you are resident and ordinarily resident but are not domiciled in the UK the remittance basis operates differently from the way in which it works for individuals who are resident but not ordinarily resident in the UK. You are liable to UK tax on the arising basis for any earned income where the duties are performed wholly or partly in the UK. The liability to UK tax on income earned wholly outside the UK will depend on the residence status of your employer. Need I go on??? VAT however is a different story. |