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08 Mar 10 - 04:28 PM (#2859481) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: The Sandman The finger in the ear 90 verse scots ballad, so spoke COLIN IRWIN denigrating traditional music. the music played on these programmes is ok,but these programmes represent a missed opportunity,not one single source singer,when there were still plenty of good source singers available.[why not have Betsy Reynolds on the programme] one decent traditional song [but arguably not the best version]well performed. one decent version of MASTERS OF WAR. What these programmes illustrate is that the wrong person [Ian Anderson], was given an opportunity to promote traditional/folk music and didnt do it very well,the very title tells you a lot Their hearts might be in the right place[arguable]but people clearly out of their depth when discussing traditional or English Scotiish music,Colin Irwin should be ashamed of himself .Dick Miles |
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08 Mar 10 - 04:46 PM (#2859500) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: GUEST,cardboard cutout Cross-posted with message 3 above, but I disagree with G.S.S (as usual). |
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08 Mar 10 - 04:53 PM (#2859508) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: The Sandman so cardboard cutout you clearly did not want to see source singers like Betsy Reynolds? so much for roots music. what a shame somebody well qualified to do so like Ewan MacColl didnt introduce the programme. |
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08 Mar 10 - 05:11 PM (#2859525) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: Folknacious Did't those Open Door programmes get made by the people who took the initiative to lobby the BBC for them? In that case it wasn't a question of being "given the opportunity", it was somebody getting off their bum and doing something instead of sitting around moaning - and still sitting around moaning 30 years later. How come Dick Miles didn't do it? To correct your statement, what a shame somebody like Ewan McColl couldn't be bothered to do it. |
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08 Mar 10 - 05:24 PM (#2859539) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: GUEST,cardboard cutout Yes, GSS, I would have liked to have seen more source singers than I ever had the opportunity to do,but not on this programme. It was made to inform the wider public, not to inform the already-interested, such as I |
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08 Mar 10 - 05:43 PM (#2859557) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: The Sandman Dick Miles, sitting around moaning,30 years on. no ,offering constructive criticism,are we not allowed to be critical or do we all have to say Jolly good show IAN,how nice to see you with your chums. it would have been far better to have had at least one source singer, Walter Pardon perhaps? or Bob Lewis,Bob would have been almost local? the trouble is people like this making unrepresentative and ill thought out programmes can do significant damage,and would be better leaving it to those who have some understanding of traditional music,and who do not allow people such as Colin Irwin to denigrate scottish traditional ballads and singer song writers,quite frankly this programme would have been better if it hadnt appeared . Colin Irwin denigrates introspective songwriters, yet one of the selected items is a modern song which is down beat,and would be dismissed by the ignorant people he talks about, as an introspective song,I think it is a powerful song,but is it the best song to convert Joe Public to walk into a folk club,I dont think so,it probably reflects Ian Andersons musical taste,but should that be the criteria,if the purpose is some evangelical zeal to get bums on seats in folk clubs why should I do it? why should I do anything that I might perceive does more harm than good.I make no pretence I am a capable television presenter,I am first and foremost a singer,but at least I know my limitations.Dick Miles |
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08 Mar 10 - 05:46 PM (#2859566) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: Folknacious Remind me, was that before or after Ian Anderson accused you of taking drugs? |
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08 Mar 10 - 05:47 PM (#2859567) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: The Sandman Yes, GSS, I would have liked to have seen more source singers than I ever had the opportunity to do,but not on this programme. It was made to inform the wider public, not to inform the already-interested, such as I. bullshit,if that was the case get the Spinners,or Fairport on the job. Pete/ChrisCoe/Martin Simpson [good artists as they are] and the rest dont have that commercial appeal either |
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08 Mar 10 - 05:54 PM (#2859574) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: The Sandman Folknacious,you said The less that is said about the talking blokes the better, I think, even though their hearts were probably in the right places. so you can criticise but I cant? without being accused of an agenda? |
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09 Mar 10 - 01:33 AM (#2859790) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: Dave Hanson GSS of course you can criticise, but what a futile pointless thing, to criticies a programme made over 20 years ago, and then not about the contents but about what it didn't contain. Dave H |
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09 Mar 10 - 05:38 AM (#2859876) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: Smedley GSS, I think some of the things you hoped to see in the programme would have been ruled out by the BBC. It was part of a series where the remit was to give TV exposure to those not usually seen on TV. So the likes of MacColl, the Spinners or Fairport, all being reasonably well-known already, would not have been appropriate. |
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09 Mar 10 - 06:03 AM (#2859891) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: Ian Anderson I never learn, do I? I thought I'd post those links as some older readers would enjoy seeing favourite artists from 30 years ago, and younger ones could marvel/ titter at the way we were. I should have known that my stalker would pitch in and cause a row. For what it's worth, you didn't get asked to make Open Door programmes, you had to put up a very good pitch for them and work at getting them. They also had to be made for/by an established organisation, not individuals or commercial operations. It was 1982, folk clubs were on the way down, and I had been co-opted onto the NEC of the EFDSS. It seemed like a good idea to put a taster of the good stuff that was around the folk clubs at the time into peoples living rooms. We all did it for free, all the artists did it for free, the folk club venue gave it for free. The BBC budget wouldn't have bought you Val Doonican's rocking chair on a normal TV show. I still think we did pretty well. What few adverse remarks we got at the time - other than several complaints about the absence of "folk comedians" - were bizarre stuff like "why didn't the women wear make up"? Traditional performers (by which I mean older source singers and musicians), then as now, were virtually never seen in folk clubs, partly because they would be in an alien environment for many of them anyway. Whenever I ran festivals through the 80s I always booked and put on traditional singers and musicians - like the Coppers, Bob Roberts, Oscar Woods, Billy Bennington, Bampton etc - but not in formal concert situations with audiences sat in rows as in this TV prog, where they would have been like fish out of water. I could have pitched to make a programme about traditional singers and musicians, but it would have been a completely different programme (think Blaxall Ship film) and others would have done that better. Why not just enjoy this little period piece for what it's worth: probably not a lot, except that as it turns out there's bugger all else on film to document that era. Which is hardly my fault . . . |
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09 Mar 10 - 06:27 AM (#2859901) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: The Sandman ok, so I will criticise the contents. this programme did represent a certain unfortunate aspect of the folk scene: cronyism/jobs for the mates/ex wife,plus one performer singing in an accent that was not his own. an irritating mc prattling on about knitted jumpers[really cutting edge,[all the underprivileged from Brixton,will be dashing in to hear more revolutionary cutting edge songs about social inequality and to get a Maggie Holland home made knitted jumper] this programme represented Ian Andersons taste in music but was not truly representative[only partly prepresentative] of what was happening in folk clubs,but pretty typical of the sort of thing southern rag/ian anderson were trying to encourage. the sort of thing many performers had to battle against, during the 1980s there was a faction that thought pretty sounds more important than good singing or more important than cutting edge modern songwriters such as LeonRosselson. ColinIrwins statement about 90 verse scots ballads and introspective songwriters says it all,Colin Irwin folk critic,its patently obvious,he doesnt know what he is on about. the title was absurd,nobody has ever sung with their hand in their ear,they normally sing with their hand by the ear,and for a very good reason it enables the performer to hear their own voice[especially when singing in harmony]it is not a pose. it was all terribly terribly surrey,home counties,middle class and twee DaveH. if i criticse what it did not contain ,[Imo]that is also a crticism of what it did contain. |
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09 Mar 10 - 06:27 AM (#2859903) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: Howard Jones In what way was it "unrepresentative"? I thought it was a good snapshot of the sort of music to be found in folk clubs at the time, which was the aim of the programme. You may might have chosen other artists, but that's personal preference - you can't argue about the quality of any of the performances. It was a low-budget show intended to attract interest in folk clubs, in which it clearly succeeded. I thought it was great. Where it perhaps wasn't representative (perhaps fortunately) was in failing to show a mediocre floor singer forgetting the words to yet another rendition of "the sharks they played melodeons", with actions. But never mind the jumpers, what about Martin Simpson's bow tie and matching purple trousers? |
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09 Mar 10 - 06:35 AM (#2859904) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: The Sandman Traditional performers (by which I mean older source singers and musicians), then as now, were virtually never seen in folk clubs, partly because they would be in an alien environment for many of them anyway. rubbish, Willie Scott, Fred Jordan,The Copper Family,joe hutton willie taylor will atkinson Walter Pardon and many others all performed in clubs or at folk festivals. as for stalking [please provide evidence of this]I have better things to do,how come criticising one post of yours is stalking?, |
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09 Mar 10 - 06:43 AM (#2859910) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: Will Fly Ian - many thanks for taking the trouble to convert and post the programmes. The jumpers were excellent - and Martin Simpson's curly brown hair and bow tie was a treat indeed! Some great performances and performers in the show - and good to see that people like Pete Coe, Maggie Holland and Martin Simpson are still with us today and making excellent music. 1982 was about the time I "lapsed" from the folk scene and started playing jazz in earnest, so your film brought back some memories of that period. And as for you - blimey - you looked even younger than I remember you in Soho days in the early 1970s! And Dick - why not just enjoy the feckin' programmes and give the carping a rest for a change? |
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09 Mar 10 - 06:48 AM (#2859912) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: Tootler Dick, I think you are being unfair to the programme. Firstly, It was of its time and you need to look at it in that light. Secondly, Colin Irwin was not denigrating folk music with his comment about fingers in the ear and 90 verse Scottish Ballads. He was describing other peoples' perceptions and how folk music was all too often represented in the mainstream media which is something entirely different. The point of his remarks is that the programme was intended to go some way to dispelling this image and give a flavour of what actually went on in Folk Clubs and I thought it did a pretty good job in that respect. Of course it was contrived, but that is the nature of the beast. You have 30 minutes of TV time to show a "typical" evening in a folk club, then you have a very difficult task and a great deal of TV is contrived in this respect. My wife watches the antique auction programmes which are on at lunch time and most of the "look what I've found" moments as clearly contrived. However it doesn't make the programmes any less enjoyable or interesting. Of course you can argue that some things could have been done differently; we all can, but Ian Anderson got to make the programme so the choices were his and rightly so. Overall the music and the performers were very good and would probably have given a good impression of what folk music was like to someone who was not familiar with what went on in folk clubs. The OP states that EFDSS got 500 enquiries asking about local folk clubs. Pretty good for a minority programme which almost certainly would only have attracted a small audience by TV standards and what sounds to me like a positive outcome. Geoff |
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09 Mar 10 - 07:59 AM (#2859979) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: The Sandman Dick Miles is quite wrong to criticise any aspect of this programme. he is quite wrong to suggest it was nothing but a promotional for Ians ex wife and friends,he is quite wrong to suggest that source singers or cutting edge songwriters should have been included. Maggies banjo playing was good, although I found her singing on this occasion a bit affected, Martin Simpsons guitar playing was very good,a shame about the false american accent,but a very good version nevertheless, Pete and Chris Coe were good,Colin Irwin was not good. |
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09 Mar 10 - 08:39 AM (#2860002) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: The Sandman TOOTLER ;the point is that Colin Irwin is wrong,scottish ballads are sung in folk clubs,[our traditions and our old songs are something to be proud of,not something that we must pretend doesnt happen because it will scare non folk enthusisasts away]. old scottish ballads should and are sung. Folk clubs are places where people can appreciate music other than three minutes of a banal pop song ,where people do have the concentration to listen to a good story teller or a good singer of a ballad,pretending it doesnt happen,is rather like getting someone in under false pretences. Folk clubs are places where introverted singer songwriters sing. some folk club goers like long traditional ballads and some others like introverted songwriters such as Rosemary Hardman,it is no good trying to deny they do not exist,or that it is not representative of folk clubs. however it is only part of the picture,this is what Colin Irwin did not make clear,he was giving the impression [which was reinforced by the title of the show]that what we saw on Ians progranmme was truly representative it was not. this programme only partly represents what was happening in folk clubs at this time,. I was running folk clubs at this time,I remember booking Ewan MacColl,who sang long ballads[very well] and also social comment contemporary songs,singers like Roy Harris were singing traditiional material unaccompanied,and getting audiences to participate in chorus songs,Fred Jordan[Redcar/Whitby/fylde] Willie Scott[appeared at Whitby festival]Martin Carthy was singing long ballads,there was also much experimentation with brass/ wind instruments,john Kirkpatrick sue Harris,Dick and Sue Miles, Pyewackett,Flowers and Frolics etc etc. Folk clubs such as Swindon and Islington regularly booked source singers /musicians. |
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09 Mar 10 - 09:21 AM (#2860031) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: Ian Anderson Dear god, Dick, it must be awful having the chip on your shoulder strangled by your spleen. Have you considered drugs? Just don't confuse other people's motivations for doing things with those that spring into your own mind, OK? Thanks to those who've said they enjoyed the programme being put back into the public domain. |
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09 Mar 10 - 10:44 AM (#2860097) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: Steve Hunt This thread is (sadly) the perfect example of why I so very rarely visit Mudcat. Ian Anderson posted the videos (which I'd not seen before and thoroughly enjoyed) only to have load of graceless crap publicly thrown his way. Sigh. BTW Dick Miles - please note that the name of the source singer that you are championing so loudly is Betsy Renals (not Reynolds). No fRoots, no effin idea... (to paraphrase an oysterperson... |
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09 Mar 10 - 10:52 AM (#2860104) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: GUEST,Peter Laban Dear god, Dick, it must be awful having the chip on your shoulder strangled by your spleen. Have you considered drugs? Just don't confuse other people's motivations for doing things with those that spring into your own mind, OK Take some comfort you're not the only one he likes to pounce on. He cultivates grudges and call people who don't agree with him 'laughable'. Flash by name.. |
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09 Mar 10 - 11:25 AM (#2860148) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: The Sandman Steve Hunt,I was championing source singers in general,so I misspelt the source singers name[is your spelling always perfect?] how does that make me ignorant on the subject of traditional music, I was making constructive criticism, which apparently I am not allowed to do without being personally attacked by Peter Laban. I have not stalked anyone,as I have been accused of doing, Ian you cant go around making unfounded allegations like that without providing evidence,it is defamatory,I presumed you were joking. Peter Laban ,what the hell are you on about,I have never met you,I certainly dont bear you any grudge,and certainly have not communicated with you on a regular basis,in fact Icant think when Ilast talked to you? it sounds to me like you have a grudge against me,your only contribution to this thread is a post attacking me personally,you have appeaerd on this thread with the sole motivation of having a go at me. |
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09 Mar 10 - 11:47 AM (#2860164) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: GUEST,Peter Laban No Dick, you have pounced on me several times on this site, one time to lecture me about doing my homework/research before posting to avoid looking like an idiot. In the same post you referred to me as 'An American. living in Clare' unwittingly showing you don't heed your own advice. On another occasion you had a go calling me a Troll, like you're suggesting now I am only here to have a go. On that occasion I had to ask you to deist several times, saying I had never made any approach to you on this site. You came back referring to my 'behaviour on Concertina.net'. On which we had a discusion: this one . In which I put several points to you, each and every one you dismissed without actually addressing the matter at hand. Anyone can judge who was being the troublemaker there. So, yes I think you do as I said above, and it doesn't look good on you. I will be very happy not to have any exchanges with you. Thank you. And I'll be happy to stop the 'Flash by name Flash by nature' jokes. Dick it is. |
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09 Mar 10 - 11:48 AM (#2860167) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: GUEST,Peter Laban 'desist' |
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09 Mar 10 - 12:01 PM (#2860181) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: Chris Green Jesus, this is pathetic. The show was made almost thirty years ago! What on earth is the point of going on about missed opportunities?! Get a grip, FFS..... |
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09 Mar 10 - 12:53 PM (#2860213) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: The Sandman Peter Laban , since you were the one in this thread to initiate a personal attack upon me,and since your post bore no relevance to the matter being discussed here, and since you have chosen to bring up matters discussed some months ago on a different forum, I must ask you to stop pursuing me, and stop attacking me personally. this was your post,this is a personal attack Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: GUEST Date: 09 Mar 10 - 10:09 AM Dear god, Dick, it must be awful having the chip on your shoulder strangled by your spleen. Have you considered drugs? Just don't confuse other people's motivations for doing things with those that spring into your own mind, OK Take some comfort you're not the only one he likes to pounce on. He cultivates grudges and call people who don't agree with him 'laughable'. Flash by name.. |
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09 Mar 10 - 01:32 PM (#2860241) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: GUEST,Peter Laban As I said Dick, each and every encounter I had with you so far on this site was initiated by YOU. In this thread I merely confirmed that, the way I see it is that you proudly wear the chips you collect on your shoulder and cherish them. If you call that pursuing you, I think you have an odd look on things. I rather feel the situation so far has been quite the opposite. Our previous exchanges are there for anyone to look up. As well as our exchange on concertina.net, which you brought over to this forum as evidence of my 'trolling' behaviour. As I said, I would be more than happy having these exchanges and will leave the ball in your court to see this will happen. My apologies to the rest of the Mudcatters that this has disrupted this thread (and ditto for previous ones where Dick felt he had to have a go). |
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09 Mar 10 - 01:52 PM (#2860263) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: GUEST,Dick Miles's editor Dick Miles - 7272 posts on Mudcat as of today. 7272 wastes of space. 7272 examples of illiteracy. 7272 reasons to avoid this ignoramus. 7272 reasons not to book him. |
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09 Mar 10 - 01:57 PM (#2860265) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: GUEST,Peter Laban As I said, I would be more than happy having these exchanges and will leave the ball in your court to see this will happen. That of course should have read: having these exchanges END |
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09 Mar 10 - 03:25 PM (#2860354) Subject: RE: The Not The Finger In Ear Show (1982) From: Joe Offer I don't know what to do with this shit. I just can't keep up with it. I suppose I ought to start by deleting every damn post that comes from Dick Miles, because most have an unpleasant and combative tone. But then the responses are even worse. I started to clean the crap out of this thread, but I found the entire thread is riddled with combative posts. I really don't know what to do, so I'm just going to close the whole thread, and move the messages that don't refer to Dick Miles to another thread. Not all the messages in this thread are objectionable - it's just that they refer to the comments made by Mr. Miles. -Joe Offer- |