BS: Get a Degree - Work for NOTHING

13 Mar 10 - 04:00 AM (#2863177)
Subject: BS: Get a Degree - Work for NOTHING
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Yes, it's wonderful, ain't it!    "Get yer Work Experience Here!"

Some UK employers are now conning Graduates to work for them for nothing! And..it gets even worse, or funnier, because some of those Graduates are paying thousands of pounds TO their new employers for their 'work experience' only to find there is NO job at the end of it!

You couldn't make it up, really, could you!!


May be we need to bring a few new University subjects:

The Common Sense degree
The You've GOT To Be JOKING, Right? degree
The Can ANYONE Really Be That Dumb? degree
The How To Spot A Bastard Employer at 10,000 Paces degree
The Dumb & Dumber degree (oh woops, that one's already over-subscribed)

And...my favourite..

The Don't Go To University Come Out With A Degree and £20,000 Debt Then Pay Your Employer To Work For Him degree


I mean??????????????????

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13 Mar 10 - 04:51 AM (#2863202)
Subject: RE: BS: Get a Degree - Work for NOTHING
From: Will Fly

Is this the story you're referring to (or one like it)?

Times Online Feb 13 2010

If you're talking about graduates, i.e. those who have taken their degree and finished their university career, then this has nothing to do with universities. The university I worked in for many years had, and has, a very high rate of graduate employment, through good contacts with industry and the professions, and a high quality careers counselling. But it's a hard economic climate, and getting a degree doesn't automatically get you a job in the real world. But note, paying for voluntary work after graduation has nothing to do with how the degree itself has been paid for.

If you're talking about work placement, i.e. work carried out during the study period, this is an essential part of some degrees - clinical placement for a physiotherapy student, for example, requires a 1,000 hours of practical experience in various hospitals throughout the course. This is set by the Chartered Society, by the way, not the university. And, yes, this is covered by student fees - it's an alternative way of teaching and learning to conventional classroom contact.

But why take a swipe at all degrees in all universities? Of course there are relative social values in degrees of various sorts - I'm not a huge believer in degrees in "Media Studies", for example - but I'd rather have a well-qualified doctor than not...

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13 Mar 10 - 05:12 AM (#2863216)
Subject: RE: BS: Get a Degree - Work for NOTHING
From: Emma B

I think lizzie is referring to Internships but as half of the post is taken up with yet anothee reprise of her (usual) attitude that formal education (including university) is producing 'irrelevant' people that

"can sell film and razor blades, push paper and talk on the telephones, or sit mindlessly before a flickering computer terminal but as human beings they are useless.
Useless to others and useless to themselves"

and
'a degree now become almost meaningless, as in 'everybody's got one of those' as
'so many kids at University who er...aren't really bright enough to be there'

with probably more than a hint of all employers are exploitative so unlike the roseate golden days

- it's sometimes difficult to tell

Interns 'exploited by employers', says TUC BBC News 13 March

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13 Mar 10 - 05:23 AM (#2863219)
Subject: RE: BS: Get a Degree - Work for NOTHING
From: VirginiaTam

It seems to me, one should be angry with the greedy employers exploiting the workforce.

As an aside... even though I have a bachelor's degree and it cost me dear in the purse and it doesn't translate well here in the UK, I would not trade it for anything. Not only did I love what I studied and learned, it contributed to the person I am now. The things I care about, I can argue for (or against) with the skills to really investigate why I feel strongly. I am more able to judge and monitor my own reactions. And for that reason alone the education was invaluable.

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13 Mar 10 - 05:41 AM (#2863233)
Subject: RE: BS: Get a Degree - Work for NOTHING
From: Ruth Archer

Tam, I agree: one of the things that seems to have been lost in recent years is the concept of study for its own sake. Maybe it's because of tuition fees that the equation now seems to be all about employability. But even if it hadn't led to my current career, I LOVED my time at uni. The simple opportunity to take elective modules in subjects like literature and art history - they haven't been particularly relevant to my career, but I'm so glad I got the opportunity.

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13 Mar 10 - 05:59 AM (#2863244)
Subject: RE: BS: Get a Degree - Work for NOTHING
From: Bobert

No wonder I make nuthin'... I got two of the useless things... But, hey, once yer workin' fir nuthin' they can't take that way from ya'...

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13 Mar 10 - 06:17 AM (#2863256)
Subject: RE: BS: Get a Degree - Work for NOTHING
From: GUEST,Ralphie

Never went to Uni.
Had a really good school education, which enabled me to get the job/career that I followed for 33 Years.
Thats just me. Uni suits some people, although the amount of debt that can arise is appalling.
Learning for learnings sake is a wonderful idea. Sadly, in the current climate, it doesn't sound very practical.
Off on a tangent.
When I was at the Beeb, we would occasionally get some work experience kids to visit us.
When asked what they did, they would say (very proudly)
"I'm doing a degree in Media Studies"
The sound of a sinking heart!
My thoughts...Yep, you and 20000 others. Number of places available at the BBC this year??? about 5.
Not much hope then.

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13 Mar 10 - 06:35 AM (#2863270)
Subject: RE: BS: Get a Degree - Work for NOTHING
From: VirginiaTam

My degree and first love is English Literature, with Collegiate Professional License (Teacher qualification). Funny, at the time I never had any idea I would end up in the UK, where my teacher qualification counts for diddly.

Still I loved every bit of study (barring maths) which in the US for a teacher's degree is all inclusive. Loved biology, earth science and astronomy as much as philosophy, sociology, US History and Western Civ. And made top marks in all the teacher ed courses too.

I just loved being a student.

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13 Mar 10 - 07:10 AM (#2863280)
Subject: RE: BS: Get a Degree - Work for NOTHING
From: Emma B

An article in The Independent in January
http://www.independent.co.uk/student/career-planning/getting-job/internships-make-a-difference-when-it-comes-to-getting-a-job-1873777.html
made the point that 'graduates flooding out of university in the midst of a recession, they are looking to internships to give them the edge that employers demand.'

Internships are NOT guarantees of permanent employment with a company

- According to the recent Destinations of Leavers from Higher Education survey conducted by the Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA), "having already worked there" accounted for 17 per cent of job sources.

Some internships are better than others.

Most of the best-quality internships are offered by those who can afford them - big private firms but decently paid internships with a possible position at the end, while obviously the ideal, are scarce, particularly in the recession.

Internships in charities, fundraising, and nonprofit work are more usually unpaid / voluntary.
This can also be true for small firms although under a new government initiative participating graduates will be able to get a grant of £100 a week towards their wages.
This would then be topped up by their small firm employer.

The Internship companies across the UK are profiting from this surge in interest.

IT IS THESE RECRUITMENT COMPANIES AND NOI THE EMPLOYERS WHO HAVE STARTED CHARGING FOR PLACEMENTS.

There are websites charging hundreds of pounds for letters of introduction for internships.!!

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13 Mar 10 - 07:23 AM (#2863288)
Subject: RE: BS: Get a Degree - Work for NOTHING
From: Bonzo3legs

I'd wager that a modern UK degree is little above that of A level standard during the 1960s.

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13 Mar 10 - 08:31 AM (#2863329)
Subject: RE: BS: Get a Degree - Work for NOTHING
From: Will Fly

Then you'd lose your shirt, old cock. Try engineering a bridge or treating a patient or working as a pharmacist with A levels.

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13 Mar 10 - 08:51 AM (#2863338)
Subject: RE: BS: Get a Degree - Work for NOTHING
From: VirginiaTam

Ahhhhh! thanks Emma... Recruitment agencies in the US were notorious for charging both the employer and the prospective employee for placements.

ECC has a highly publicised apprentice programme that pays school leavers £95.00 a week. There is no guarantee of placement in permanent employment at the end of apprenticeship, but would be good experience if it worked.
The Council in its infinite wisdom did not provide services with the funding to actually take up the scheme, (hiring freeze means the budget cannot support replacing vacant posts much less fund an apprentice). A colleague is trying to get her son in the apprenticeship programme but has been told repeatedly there are no placements at the current time.

Guess it is just so much spin to make the council look like it is doing something. God that sounds so jaded. Sigh!

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13 Mar 10 - 08:52 AM (#2863340)
Subject: RE: BS: Get a Degree - Work for NOTHING
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""The TUC says employers are exploiting interns.""

And what else is new?

The Association of Trades Unions, which has been slagging off all employers since God was a boy, are still doing so.

Well, there obviously wouldn't be any bias in their attitude, would there?

And they aren't even blaming the people who are actually responsible.

Gets more like deja vu every second.

This is where I came in, back in 1959.

Don T.

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13 Mar 10 - 08:54 AM (#2863342)
Subject: RE: BS: Get a Degree - Work for NOTHING
From: Folkiedave

Having done both - first as a school student and then much later as a mature student - in other words I don't need to wager I actually know what I am talking about - Will is mostly right.

You would lose your shirt.

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13 Mar 10 - 09:11 AM (#2863350)
Subject: RE: BS: Get a Degree - Work for NOTHING
From: Emma B

Forget the usual attention grabbing headlines especially those that put words like 'exploited' in inverted commas and examine the actual news

TUC General Secretary Brendan Barber ACTUALLY said:

"Properly managed work experience programmes are an important part of preparing young people for the world of work.
But SOME employers are guilty of exploiting those keen to get that all important first job in film, TV or journalism by only paying expenses, whereas in SOME cases they should be paying them at least the minimum wage.

Our concern is that currently only young people with well-off parents can afford to work for nothing for six months or more.

This means that film and television production companies, newspapers and broadcasters risk excluding those from less privileged backgrounds."


Under the National Minimum Wage Act, interns who work rather than observe should be paid.

The reality -

The TUC has requested that The Low Pay Commission examine the conditions under which interns are actually working and that employers should pay a wage which reflects BOTH the real value of the intern's contribution AND the level of training and support offered to them during this period.

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13 Mar 10 - 11:05 AM (#2863397)
Subject: RE: BS: Get a Degree - Work for NOTHING
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Emma:"I think lizzie is referring to Internships but as half of the post is taken up with yet anothee reprise of her (usual) attitude that formal education (including university) is producing 'irrelevant' people that

"can sell film and razor blades, push paper and talk on the telephones, or sit mindlessly before a flickering computer terminal but as human beings they are useless. ...."

I never said those words, Emma. Don't know where you got them, but they ain't mine. I do accept public apologies.



The story was all over BBC Breakfast News this morning. Apparently it's hugely on the increase, and they were saying how young people are being exploited by greedy employers, who are merely jumping on the Recession Bandwagon to get folks to work for nothing, whilst coining in all the profits they make from it.

Bit like cutting your wages, the new trendy thing to do, but you don't even have to give out wages in the first place.

I mean????

I know, I know, I KNOW! I've not been to Uni, didn't even complete my A levels as I was bored rigid and preferred to be out there working, making money...and therefore I have no right to think out loud, let alone sit in front of a compooooter and have an opinion, BUT....who is the daftest here?

The Employer
or
The Employee

?

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13 Mar 10 - 11:34 AM (#2863408)
Subject: RE: BS: Get a Degree - Work for NOTHING
From: Emma B

"can sell film and razor blades, push paper and talk on the telephones, or sit mindlessly before a flickering computer terminal but as human beings they are useless. ...."

Those words come from John Talor Gatto who you demanded us to read several times and whose words/views you stated you agreed wholeheartedly with.......

I don't believe I said the word were yours merely the attitude; as you have stated 'he has changed the way 'so many of us' (I presume you include yourself in that?) are now thinking'

As you demanded

"WATCH THIS....You Might Learn Something!!   because this man is hugely important

This is your Homework for tonight, children.

I want a 3,000 word essay on it by next Thursday afternoon. This will give you all time to order it, read it and write about it, in the way that I demand."

and as I have an open mind.....
Well you see I did what you 'demanded'

but you can apologize for junping to conclusions if you want


Lizzie I don't really care what you heard 'all over' a breakfast programme and I have no idea who the 'they' were you were listening to; but I do care about misrepresentation.

The situation as outlined by the TUC is that SOME firms in the very specific area of 'media' buisness are taking advantage of the combination of too many media studies students anxious to get a foothold in their chosen cut-throat career and a recession.

However, the use of internship, both paid and voluntary (no one actually forces students to do this you know) is on the increase and some 'introduction' firms are exploiting the situation.

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13 Mar 10 - 11:51 AM (#2863413)
Subject: RE: BS: Get a Degree - Work for NOTHING
From: Emma B

You want to share your experiences Lizzie - well here are mine FWIW

I went to an excellent school with dedicated teachers but I came from a poor family and for economic/social reasons was unable to continue school to study for A levels after achieving 10 O levels

I started work at 16 and continued evening class to achieve higher qualifications - it was often very tiring after a long day at work.

I was eventually accepted as a mature student at the age of 24 in the extra mural department of a redbrick university.

I was not 'out there making money' I was out there on my own just surviving and I think I have earned the right to make up my own mind and diaagree with your opinions without having to suffer a personal attack.

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13 Mar 10 - 11:54 AM (#2863415)
Subject: RE: BS: Get a Degree - Work for NOTHING
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Ah, John Taylor Gatto, NOT me.

You should have put his name after his words, yer know, to like um er show folks he said 'em and not me...

He talks a great deal of sense. One of my heroes. And yes, sadly what he says there is kinda true, because these days, when the world and his wife has a degree, they ain't really worth as much as they used to be. Whilst I agree with Will that many degrees are bloody hard work and worth every moment of study, some aren't. And as the pass rate for quite a bit of Degreey Type Work seems to be around 40%, methinks that somewhere along the line, Dumb & Dumber have taken over as Producers of The New Rules of University Degrees.

Once upon a time, in a Land Far Away in Intelligence, their lived people who had brains SO clever, and who were so interested in their subjects, that they excelled everyone around them. They were the clever clogs who got to go to Uni, and who got truly amazing marks! Yer know..the kinda marks where you if you got 40% you'd be er..failed....?

Anyways ups..

Thank you though for clearing up the way you misrepresented me in your words above, Emma. I know how you dislike misrepresentation of any sort.

(hoisted petard own your by) rearrange to suit mood... ;0)


As I said, I DO accept public apologies.

The BBC made a big thing of it this morning. I suggest you take up your Misrepresentation Claims with them, as the practice/practise (depending on whether you have a Pedantry Degree) is becoming more and more widespread.

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13 Mar 10 - 12:08 PM (#2863422)
Subject: RE: BS: Get a Degree - Work for NOTHING
From: Emma B

'You should have put his name after his words, yer know, to like um er show folks he said 'em and not me... '

Do you mean like this?

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Emma B - PM
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 06:17 AM

Eanjay advises people who are school educated not to read much of this thread if they are school educated and have any feelings

Gatto describes those of us who have been through state education -

"The products of schooling are, as I've said, irrelevant.
Well-schooled people are irrelevant.
They can sell film and razor blades, push paper and talk on the telephones, or sit mindlessly before a flickering computer terminal but as human beings they are useless.
Useless to others and useless to themselves"

             ------------------------------------

Do you actually read ANYTHING Lizzie? -

1 you had obviously not read Gatto if you didn't recognize his words
2 you don't bother reading anyone else's posts either it appears

Now please refrain from misrepresenting me any further and for heavens sake stop going on and on about 'public apologies' for imagined 'slights'

thank you

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