BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?

14 Mar 10 - 02:31 PM (#2864024)
Subject: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: gnu

So, I was at Mum's bank last week paying her quarterly taxes. While standing in line, Rose, 87 years old, was asked 6 times about her bank card. She was sooo sweet about it, explaining that she didn't understand "bank cards" and didn't know why she needed one... "This bank has made money from my money for 70 years wothout a bank card." I felt sorry for her being repeatedly questioned and prodded.

Then, I stepped up. A simple transaction. A federal government document with a payment amount to be taken out of the account shown on the chequebook I provided (my name is on the account for convenience).

Just swipe your bank card.

There is no bank card.

Do you not have your bank card with you?

There is no bank card.

Does your wife have a bank card?

There is no wife.

Who's name is on this account?

Now... at that point, I thought about a few snide remarks as I was rather pissed off about how they treated Rose and how they treated Mum in that past when I used to take her to the bank. But I explained the situation.

That's when it happened. She said she would proceed with the transaction today despite the lack of a bank card and then WE would apply for a bank card.

I said thank you.

She messed up three times making the payment... twice, it was the wrong account. I grew calmer.

When she finally provided me with the proper proof of payment and account balance, she started to ask me questions regarding the bank card application.

I asked if she had understood Rose and said thanks and have a good day... and walked away.

I don't have a bank card at any of the banks I deal with. I am a person... not a chip. And I feel a lot more secure that way.

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14 Mar 10 - 03:07 PM (#2864039)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

No bank card?    No such person!

Dunno about the system in UK, but if one has a bank account in Canada, one has a card. It is not used for swiping, but has your bank number.

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14 Mar 10 - 04:08 PM (#2864072)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Little Hawk

They just can't believe it when you refuse to jump through the required hoop and play their little game.

Similar disbelief is shown when you inform the cable company that you don't watch TV, but only need a hookup for the internet!

"I don't watch TV. I don't watch TV. I don't watch TV. I don't even HAVE a TV." You have to say it repeatedly, because they just can't fathom such a concept. If you don't watch TV and don't listen to commercial radio, you have at one stroke eliminated 99% of the governing propaganda you are exposed to daily by the MSM, and you can still stay "well informed" by viewing various other propaganda on the Net and in the newspaper... ;-)

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14 Mar 10 - 05:36 PM (#2864106)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Bert

I didn't have that problem with Quest when I signed up for JUST INTERNET, the guy looked mildly surprised but made no comment and signed me up.

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14 Mar 10 - 05:37 PM (#2864109)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Bert

Oh, and I like my bank card. I can deposit a check after hours and have the funds available immediately.

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14 Mar 10 - 05:41 PM (#2864113)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: gnu

Q. UK?

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14 Mar 10 - 05:59 PM (#2864125)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: CarolC

I've been issued one (automatically when I opened my account), but I've never used it, and I've never been asked for it, either. And my bank is a Canadian bank. They don't issue them automatically up there in Canada?

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14 Mar 10 - 06:12 PM (#2864130)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Little Hawk

They usually do issue a bank card with a new account, as far as I know. Some people have accounts they've had for several decades, though, and they still have no bank card. In such cases the bank will generally try to talk the person into getting a bank card.

I also find my bank card very handy, because it allows me to do transactions at the machine whenver I want to, and to make debit purchases when shopping, paying for a meal, etc...

Now then, there are all the various chain store cards. Shoppers Drug Mart, for example, always asks me if I have an Optimum card when I shop there. Zellers asks me if I have their card. And so on. Their staff have obviously been instructed to ask every customer that. I don't want an Optimum card or a Zellers card, because I already have enough bloody cards crowding up my wallet.

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14 Mar 10 - 07:26 PM (#2864168)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Bert

A. US.

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14 Mar 10 - 08:34 PM (#2864193)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

My bank card-
Opens the door at the bank to the machines in off hours.
Must be inserted in the slot of the machines when I want cash without standing in line waiting for a free teller.
The number signs me on when I want to do online banking.
Must be put on deposits I put into the after-hours box.

Identifies me when there is a new teller at the bank who doesn't recognize me.
(That new one from Thailand is a No. 9+)

Dunno how one can do without one.

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14 Mar 10 - 10:05 PM (#2864223)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: artbrooks

I use mine for nearly all of my purchases and bills, in person and on line - last year I wrote all of five checks...and used all of five stamps to mail checks. And for money from the machine. And my bank gives me points (one cent on the dollar) that I can use to buy stuff - just used them for a pair of $300 plane tickets.

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14 Mar 10 - 10:15 PM (#2864227)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: maire-aine

I resisted for a long time, but I've begun to like my debit card. I use it more than I thought I would. But I've never been asked for a bank card by a teller. Hm...

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14 Mar 10 - 10:23 PM (#2864231)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: CarolC

I don't like debit cards. It's too easy for people to wipe out my bank account. I use a credit card for almost all transactions, and I pay the bill off every month. And I get bonus points (and cash back) for doing that. I don't like making deposits after hours, so I don't use it for that. I don't ever need it to identify myself at the bank (nobody ever asks me for identification at the bank - probably because whenever I go to the bank, it's to make a deposit) and I pretty much don't ever get money out of the ATM, so I don't need it for that. I suppose I would use it for ATM withdrawals if I didn't get my cash from JtS, who does make ATM withdrawals. But I hardly ever have any need for cash.

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14 Mar 10 - 10:42 PM (#2864238)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Joe Offer

I travel a lot, and I find a debit card is a terrific way to get cash when I need it. I used travelers' cheques until places stopped accepting them, and then I found that using an ATM was so much easier. If I can't find my bank, I go to WalMart and make a small purchase and get $100 back. My ATM card has worked well for me in Europe, and the fees are fairly reasonable. I've used an ATM card since the 1970s, and never had a problem.

-Joe-

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14 Mar 10 - 11:16 PM (#2864244)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Little Hawk

Carol, I think it's far easier for someone to empty your bank with a stolen credit card....they can walk into a bunch of stores, buy stuff with it, and no one questions them! This has happened to several people I know. No one I know has lost any of their money through a stolen or lost debit card (and I lost one by leaving it at a bank machine in downtown Toronto...it disappeared in under 2 minutes, because it was gone when I ran back to that bank machine to look for it)....

People can't use your debit card to purchase anything unless they know the pin number. How can they know the pin number?

This is why nothing resulted from whatever person stole my debit card. They couldn't use it without the pin number. I went to a branch bank ASAP and got another debit card...with a new pin number.

Credit cards are also handy...but they are very easy for people to commit fraud with, and that will happen fast if they get stolen...usually within the next half hour or sooner...and the person will buy thousands of dollars worth of stuff in numerous small amounts.

They can't do that with your debit card. They don't have the pin number (unless they stick a gun in your face and make you tell them what it is, in which case you are basically screwed regardless...).

Another thing with debit cards...there is a daily limit on how much you can withdraw from your account with them. You can't just empty a large account. The transaction will be refused by the machine.

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14 Mar 10 - 11:36 PM (#2864247)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: bobad

Banks have programs that alert them to any transactions that fall outside of your normal banking patterns. They keep track of your banking history from your unique bank card number. You are probably safer from theft these days by using a bank card rather than not.

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14 Mar 10 - 11:38 PM (#2864248)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: CarolC

We've never been held responsible for any fraudulent purchases made on our credit cards. Just recently, someone tried to buy several hundred dollars worth of tickets with our card number, and the next time I tried to use the card, it was flagged at the checkout and I had to call to find out why. The card company told me about the ticket purchase attempt, and they canceled our card and issued us a new one. We always get a call from our credit card company when purchases are made that don't fit our profile, just to make sure it was us. We don't ever have to pay for purchases that we didn't make ourselves.

I've heard of people getting their money wiped out when people working in stores and restaurants stole their debit card numbers and used them. I don't know if they were able to get the pin numbers during the transaction or if they were using them in a way that didn't need a pin number. They have ways now of getting information from transactions using some kind of electronic scanner thing.

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14 Mar 10 - 11:45 PM (#2864249)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: CarolC

Check this out...

Consumer Reports

"Unlike credit-card thieves, who usually charge merchandise and then resell it to come up with money, people who create counterfeit ATM or debit cards by stealing your PIN and other account data can simply pull cold cash from your bank account. Using a technique known as skimming, they set up equipment that captures magnetic stripe and keypad information when you input your PIN at ATM machines, gas pumps, restaurants, or retailers."

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15 Mar 10 - 12:28 AM (#2864255)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: CarolC

By the way, people don't have to steal your credit card to be able to use it fraudulently, either. They can either find your number through any number of ways, or just use a computer program to generate numbers, some of which will correspond to actual credit card numbers. But credit card companies don't hold people responsible for fraudulent use of their cards.

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15 Mar 10 - 12:49 AM (#2864262)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Little Hawk

That's true, Carol, it's just a big hassle if someone uses your credit card number fraudulently, that's all. I've known it to happen to several people, but they weren't held responsible for the bills, as you say.

I usually use a credit card at gas pumps, because I get a sizable discount if I go to the right stations, but I use the debit card more at restaurants and the grocery.

I'm not sure how the "skimming" works, but I've heard of it. I have not heard of anyone who it happened to (and whom I know personally).

Okay.............

Here's what you can do to be REALLY SAFE!   ;-) Keep all your money in cash, and live in a fortified castle bristling with armed guards at the gate and on the walls. Pay those guards well and treat them well, and they will serve you well. Kill anyone who attempts to penetrate the armoured vaults where your cold cash is kept, mostly in the form of gold bullion, of course. Feed them to the alligators that you keep in the dungeon. Have an innermost secret security service in plain clothes who have sworn blood oaths to watch your uniformed guards, just in case. Hold hostages from guards' and security officers' families to make double, triple, certain sure that they won't pull an "inside job" and betray you. Employ orphans from birth, indoctrinate them and bring them up to serve YOU and YOU ALONE to the death! Show NO mercy to traitors and poor people who might try to steal a bit of your cash!

It will take a fortune of billions to do this, but if you have billions to protect, it's worth it!

This is what people like the secret Masters of the incoming New World Order do, and it works for them, so why not you? (grin)

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15 Mar 10 - 12:53 AM (#2864263)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: CarolC

Well, I just use my credit card and pay off the bills every month. That works for me. ;-)

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15 Mar 10 - 01:04 AM (#2864265)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Little Hawk

Yeah, I do that too. I can't afford the castle yet. ;-)

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15 Mar 10 - 01:11 AM (#2864269)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Janie

Whatever floats your boat, gnu.

I don't think any method of handling one's money is inherently safer than another.

I have never encountered a problem with my debit card or my credit card. I rarely use my credit card, but use my debit card for nearly all my purchases. More recently, because of the issues cited by Carol C. above, I inspect the gas pump card swiper and free standing ATM's before using my debit card, and am considering stopping using my debit card at gas pumps or at ATM's not located in the side of my credit union. (I assume ATM's located at an actual branch of the credit union is inspected daily to assure to gismos have been attached that can steal information.)

I've only had two problems (knock on wood) in my life, both associated with theft of my purse. In the first instance, before the days of debit cards, I called the credit card company as soon as my purse got snatched. I went to the bank the next business day, reported my purse, with checks and driver's license (also pre-drivers license photographs) had been stolen, closed the account and opened a new one. The friggin' bank cross referenced the accounts and passed through $1700 in forged checks written on the old account through the new account. When informed of the error of their ways, they reimbursed me the entire amount, but for 2 years afterwards, I was periodically having to go sign forgery affidavits and fight with collection agencies to which merchants turned over attempts to collect subsequent checks written on the closed account.

In the second instance, I was going through a stage of boycotting debit cards. Was leaving on a trip so withdrew a substantial amount of cash the day before. Shortly afterward, I was robbed at gunpoint and all the cash went bye-bye with no possibility of recovery.

My credit card issuer is very good about calling if they spot what they notice to be unusual purchases or excessive purchases within the context of my use history to as me to confirm it was a purchase I made. Doesn't mean my identity or credit card information could not be stolen. However, anything can be stolen.

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15 Mar 10 - 10:50 AM (#2864491)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Jim Dixon

Pardon my ignorance, but—referring back to gnu's original problem—why do you have to go to a bank to pay your taxes? Can't you just write a check and mail it to the government? That's the way it's usually done in the US, although you have some alternatives.

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15 Mar 10 - 11:01 AM (#2864495)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: GUEST,bankley

I like Cash... Johnny or the folding kind...

a bank card is handy while on the road, you can also jimmy some locks with it..

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15 Mar 10 - 11:42 AM (#2864526)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: SINSULL

I use a debit card regularly. I am much happier limiting my spending to money I have than to charge on a card and find I can't afford it at the end of the month. Actually I do most of my payments with cash. Payday, I take $100 cash and when it's gone I wait until next payday to spend any more.

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15 Mar 10 - 12:53 PM (#2864563)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Little Hawk

Sounds like you use the "Chongo" method, SINSULL. ;-)

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15 Mar 10 - 01:00 PM (#2864571)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Bill D

Debit card works fine...(It's a bank card which allows ATM deposits and all that...plus you tell the machine that it's a credit card, ...it still works as a debit card and you are not charged a transaction fee).I am not tempted to spend foolishly when I know what the limit it. (I can double-check the balance online.)

We have a AAA credit card for gas purchases, which is handy away from home occasionally...and gives us 2¢ per gallon discount.

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15 Mar 10 - 01:20 PM (#2864582)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: gnu

Jim... if ya gotta go to the bank anyway, it saves postage. Plus, you get an immediate receipt.

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15 Mar 10 - 01:35 PM (#2864592)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Little Hawk

I see no harm in paying taxes at the bank. I do. I see no harm in mailing them a check either...although there's a very slight chance that something can get lost in the mail.

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15 Mar 10 - 01:41 PM (#2864595)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

It costs me about two dollars in gas money to go to the bank, plus wasted time (A closer bank but wrong name is still a mile away from my house).

When I traveled before retirement I had 3 credit cards, but now just one, which I pay off each month. I can make an online transfer from my account to the credit card. Almost everything I want except groceries and drugs I can get by online order; I seldom see the inside of a store. Some bills and taxes are paid by cheque-check.

Why run all over the place when so much can be done from home?

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15 Mar 10 - 02:00 PM (#2864613)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: gnu

I assume Rose doesn't get out a lot. I also assume she likes the personal interaction. Finally, I DO NOT assume she doesn't want a bank card because I heard her tell the teller 6 times that she didn't have one and doesn't want one. My mother handles it differently. She tells them once she doesn't have one and doesn't want one. After that, if they ask again, she just stares at them and smiles.

As for me, I have a VISA card that I use for telephone transactions with governments or for aquiring goods I cannot find locally. Debit card? Don't need one. I use cash. It pisses me off when the five people in line in front of me buying less than $5 of stuff and swiping a card and asking for $20 cash back. A few weeks ago, the guy in front of me used a debit card to buy an apple. A thirty seven cent apple. Of course, first, he had to find his Air Miles card. Then, he "swiped" wrong and she had to reset... aaaarrrrrgggghhhhhh!

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15 Mar 10 - 02:44 PM (#2864646)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Little Hawk

Oh shit. I screwed up the html in that last post. I will now have to face re-programming by system analysts so that I do not again violate their protocols... (worry, fret!)

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15 Mar 10 - 02:51 PM (#2864652)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Jim Dixon

In the US, I don't think we even have the option of paying taxes at a bank. I've never heard of anyone doing that. I suppose you could go to the bank and arrange for a wire transfer, but the bank would charge for that service, way more than the cost of a postage stamp.

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15 Mar 10 - 03:02 PM (#2864663)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Little Hawk

Ah. Well, one more good reason to live in Canada, eh? ;-) Maybe it's because we have far fewer banks here (the five major ones pretty well covers it), and they're more regulated than American banks are.

Our five main banks are:

Bank of Nova Scotia
TD/Canada Trust
Canadian Imperial(ist) Bank of Commerce
Bank of Montreal
Royal Bank

Other than those, you might see a credit union here and there, but we don't have a great many smaller local banks the way you do in the USA....just the local branches of the big 5.

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15 Mar 10 - 03:26 PM (#2864685)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: artbrooks

I live in New Mexico. My bank is in Texas. I have been in their building once - about 15 years ago - and that would be something like 20 years after I opened the account.

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15 Mar 10 - 03:44 PM (#2864700)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Amergin

Actually, Little Hawk, most debit cards these days have a Mastercard or visa logo on them....and that means they can be used the same way as a credit card. Pin numbers are not required, except when at the ATM.

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15 Mar 10 - 03:45 PM (#2864702)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Gee, I just meet people in the parks, trails, clubs, etc. I guess they don't count. I just avoid the business district. Parking downtown is too expensive anyway. And gossip at Starbucks or Second Cup in the district malls and Safeway stores where I get food and drugs.

You forgot the biggest bank operating in Canada- HSBC. Branches here in Calgary and I assume all cities.
We don't have the local banks that they have in the States so there are far fewer, but there are plenty.

Canadian banks can deal in foreign currencies, so I can get US dollars and Sterling at my branch, and have no problem paying in Euros, etc. to foreign banks. And through my branch I can deal with Barclays, etc.
Other banks operating in Calgary-
Alberta Treasury Branches
Laurentian Bank
First Bank of Calgary
Canadian Western Bank
Citizens Bank
Pacific and Western
Several catering mainly to businesses, both Canadian and some foreign like Manulife, Citibank, Deutsche Bank, Korean, etc.

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15 Mar 10 - 04:03 PM (#2864715)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Don Firth

I don't know for sure what you mean by "bank card."

I have a card issued by my bank (credit union, actually) with my name, address, phone, and account number on it which was issued to me for my reference, so I don't forget my account number.

Neither my wife nor I have debit cards. We do have credit cards, however. It's one account in both of our names, we each have a card with our own names on it, and they both bear the same number. On a couple of occasions, someone has made fraudulent purchases using our card number, but the credit card company spotted it right away, took appropriate action, and issued us a new card number. Apparently the fraudulent purchases were made by someone who had broken into the records of someplace we (and many others) had made purchases from. Other than having to notify places we regularly deal with of the new number, it hasn't been a problem for us.

We simply don't use ATMs, we just plan ahead.

I love it when some financial institution calls us (despite the fact that our telephone number is on the Federal Trade Commission's list of "Do Not Call" numbers) and offers to help us refinance our mortgage, to which I respond, "We don't have a mortgage. We own our home outright." [Actually, we own a share in a cooperative apartment building, part of which is an open-ended lease on the apartment itself. We pay a nominal monthly maintenance fee, covering such things as property tax, insurance on the building in general, some utilities, and occasional repairs in the building's common areas.]

This response yanks the rug out from under the sales pitch. More often then not, the caller switches to "Well—we can help you with your credit card debt."

At which point, I respond—truthfully—that we have no credit card debt. We pay off the full amount due every month. The credit card company may not like it much because they don't make any money off us for carrying charges, but that's the way it goes sometimes. At this point, the caller is completely flummoxed. I get the impression from what some of them say next is that Barbara and I are pretty rare birds.

We pay cash for small purchases. Pay by check a fair amount. And we use the credit card mostly for purchases like groceries (easy to keep track of sometimes variable monthly expenditures) and from off the internet, such as Amazon or Elderly Instruments.

As I say, we plan ahead.

I was flabbergasted to hear some time back that most Americans carry about $3,000 in credit card debt and make the minimum monthly payment. Getting oneself into that position is just plain stupid!

Don (feeling smug) Firth

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15 Mar 10 - 04:50 PM (#2864750)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: DebC

I had an interesting discussion with someone a while back who said that instead of using a credit card, I should use a debit card for all of my purchases. Many times, I don't have the money in my account attached to the debit card to cover the purchase until after the purchase has been made. If I have to book transportation for a tour, I have to spend the money before I earn it. Just a fact of what I do. As much as I hate it, My work depends on my using credit cards.

That said, I never ever put debt on the credit cards. They get paid off every month.

As for gnu and his friend, Rose, I say HOORAY FOR YOU!! I think that one should be able to use cash and pay bills without having bank cards if one chooses and no one should look down on anyone else just because they choose to take care of their finances in a way that is different from most people.

Debra Cowan

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15 Mar 10 - 05:40 PM (#2864775)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Little Hawk

Hmmm. Maybe we aren't all talking about the same kind of "bank card" here. The one I use is not connected with any credit card company, just with my bank, and I MUST use the pin number to make any kind of transaction with it. Yes, there are credit cards one can get that are connected with one's bank, but that's not what I mean when I say "bank card"...I mean strictly a debit card where you have to input the pin number to use it, and where the payment comes directly out of your existing cash deposits at the bank.

*****

My point about people's habits was...all people tend to cling somewhat to their habitual behaviours and they tend to resist change, but it's usually much more exaggerated with either children (who will often refuse to eat anything they haven't "et" before...) and old people (who will refuse to do old things in new ways or to use newfangled devices). I think people are most flexible with change and with "newness" during their years of peak physical confidence, which would be in their young adulthood till their prime. When their physical powers begin to diminish, however, so does their adventurous willingness to try out "new stuff", in most cases.

They'll justify it with all kinds of rationale, but the basic fact is they just feel threatened and overburdened by having to change any existing habitual patterns of behaviour...and they resent anyone suggesting that they should.

Now I, for example, have resisted using cellphones, ipods, "bluetooth" devices, and a variety of other such recent innovations, and I no longer watch TV, because:

1. I don't need any of those things.
2. I don't miss not having them.
3. I would have to pay for them, and I see no reason to since I don't miss not having them.
4. In the case of cellphones and TV, I think they're bad for your health in various ways, and too damned expensive.
4. I'd have to learn about some of these things to use them, and I don't particularly want to, since I'm not interested anyway.

So I'm like that too. ;-) And I don't care. We all have a right to our own foibles and eccentricities as the years go by.

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15 Mar 10 - 06:26 PM (#2864806)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Jim Dixon

If I remember correctly, back when ATMs were first introduced, banks issued cards that could only be used at ATMs—they were neither credit cards nor debit cards as we now know them, and you couldn't use them to purchase stuff. Somewhere along the line we got converted to a combined credit/ATM card or debit/ATM card (I have one of each) that also says VISA on it, but I don't remember how or when that happened. I don't even know if the old kind of ATM card still exists.

It seems to me it should exist. It would be a good thing for kids who can't be trusted with credit but who still have some cash in the bank—or for people with such a bad credit rating that they don't qualify for credit cards.

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15 Mar 10 - 06:30 PM (#2864810)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: gnu

Ahhh... me needer buddy... I don't have one.

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15 Mar 10 - 07:11 PM (#2864845)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: CarolC

My debit card says "Debit" on it, and also "Pocket Check". And it has the bank's initials in big letters on the front of it, and the bank's full name up in the upper left corner, and down in the lower right corner, just below the word "Debit, it says "VISA". I'm not entirely sure how it works, but it's a card that is issued by my bank, and can only be used to transfer funds into or out of my bank account, or purchase items using funds from my bank account, is a debit card and not a credit card, but still is somehow connected to the Visa credit card people.

As I said before, this is a Canadian bank. But maybe even though it's a Canadian bank, its US branches do things differently than its Canadian branches.

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15 Mar 10 - 10:35 PM (#2864944)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

I remember living in Oklahoma (long, long ago) and banking in Arkansas. Oklahoma taxed bank accounts.

I have two cards- my bank card which I described above, and a credit card with Mastercard but tied in to my bank. It gives me Air Miles on bank transactions so helps build up the totals.

I think it works differently in the US.

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15 Mar 10 - 11:49 PM (#2864962)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: artbrooks

A "branded" debit card (i.e., one that has the Visa or Mastercard logo) is processed by/through that company, and the seller/vendor is hit with a service charge similar to the one charged for use of a credit card. I'm not sure if any bank does their own any more, other than the ones that are strictly for use in ATM machines.

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15 Mar 10 - 11:56 PM (#2864966)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Little Hawk

The merchants here (in Canada) much prefer that you use a debit card (from your bank), because there's just a nominal 10 cent charge to the vendor on the transaction. Credit card fees to vendors are much higher than that.

As for the purchaser...there's no fee for using the debit card unless your bank account is below some base level ($1,000?). If it is, you pay a fee for each use of the debit card. This is pretty shameful, because it means that the poorest people in society are the ones who get hit the hardest...as usual.

I am no fan of the banking system, and would live without them if I could figure out how to.

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16 Mar 10 - 12:06 AM (#2864968)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: artbrooks

It's generally 2% of the purchase amount in the US, but I think that fees for purchases made with a pin-number card are much smaller.

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16 Mar 10 - 10:06 AM (#2865229)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Little Hawk

Right, so if I use a credit card to buy a $300 item, the store pays $6 to the credit card company. If I use my pin-number debit card, which is not associated with any credit card company, they pay 10 cents to the bank. That's why they prefer it if I use my debit card, but they'll gladly settle for either to get the sale.

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16 Mar 10 - 11:06 AM (#2865262)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: CarolC

Well, from my perspective, that's a good enough reason to use a credit card instead of a debit card (at least if the minimum balance isn't in one's account, and for us, it often isn't). Instead of having to pay them to let me use the debit card, I get paid for using my credit card. Because we use the credit cards for most of our transactions, including buying car insurance and paying some utilities, we usually get at least a one or two hundred dollars back each year from the bonus points.

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16 Mar 10 - 05:33 PM (#2865564)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Little Hawk

Yes, the credit card companies in their hunger to attract many new customers who hopefully will get themselves into debt fast (as a great many seem to) have offered small inducements in the form of bonus points...they give you back 1 percent while charging interest of maybe 18% to the people who don't pay their whole account off when it's due. I agree that if you have the self-control to handle your credit cards wisely and pay them off when they're due, this can benefit you. I use a credit card to buy gas and larger items for that very reason...it saves me a bit of money. I get about 8 cents off on every liter of gas by using my Gas Advantage credit card in this manner.

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17 Mar 10 - 12:23 AM (#2865771)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Sawzaw

I cut up the bank cards but I make money using my credit cards.

I get 3% rebate on gas and 1% on everything else.

I get 5% towards a new GM vehicle with limitations. I got $2000 off of my pickup and my wife got $3000 off of her Montana. $2000 off of the one before that.

All of the rebates are from just buying things that I would buy anyway. I don't buy anything special to get the rebate.

All I have to do is pay off the entire balance at the end of the month.

I also get a record of what I spent where and I have a better chance of getting a refund on something that does not work or breaks or even if I just don't like it.

It just takes discipline not to buy things you can't pay for at the end of the month.

I can order things online easily, I get an excellent credit rating.

What's not to like?

Credit card companies call people like me that do not carry a balance, deadbeats.

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17 Mar 10 - 12:43 PM (#2866128)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: gnu

They have those GM cards again? I am gonna check VISA for a Ford card. Got $3300 of the price of my truck 11 years ago. Of cours, I used to buy my plane tickets on the card and when you spend an average of $1500 a week on travel, it adds up pretty quick.

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17 Mar 10 - 01:08 PM (#2866157)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Little Hawk

It's really hilarious that they would call the most responsible members of the public "deadbeats", isn't it? ;-)

It occurred to me once that if one could somehow get everyone in my town to do what the town council purportedly wants them to do...and only park legally and not go overtime on their parking meters...what would happen? Well, the city would LOSE a huge amount of revenue from not collecting on any parking fines, and they'd have to lay off all the meter cops and raise taxes. Economic disaster! The system, as it presently exists, is monetarily based on the need for people to break the laws and behave stupidly. If everyone smartened up and behaved in a moral and intelligent and responsible manner, the system could not survive. This is also true regarding credit card companies and banks, of course. If we were all honest, there'd be no need for banks at all. You could keep your money at home.

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17 Mar 10 - 01:27 PM (#2866168)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Ebbie

Please, please, could we stop saying 'PIN number"? Personal Identification Number number?

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17 Mar 10 - 02:38 PM (#2866204)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Jim Dixon

PIN number? You mean the thing I use at my ATM machine?

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17 Mar 10 - 03:43 PM (#2866258)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Little Hawk

Ebbie? "Take off, eh?" ;-)

We all know perfectly well that P.I.N. already means "personal identification number", but we say "Pin number" anyway in common conversation, because we happen to like the way it sounds and how it rolls off the tongue!

Yes, Jim, the thing you use at your ATM.

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17 Mar 10 - 04:14 PM (#2866276)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: gnu

PI number. I have a politically incorrect number. But, I never say PIN number... just PIN. I am with Ebbie.

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17 Mar 10 - 04:16 PM (#2866280)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Jim Dixon

There was a joke there that was evidently too subtle.

I said ATM machine, not ATM.

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17 Mar 10 - 04:30 PM (#2866290)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: gnu

Jim... I had a chuckle. Good joke.

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17 Mar 10 - 04:41 PM (#2866301)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Charmion

We got it, Jim. We just didn't want to acknowledge it.

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17 Mar 10 - 05:33 PM (#2866334)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Ebbie

At the store, at the bank, at the coffee shop, I am always favorably impressed by staff who say:Please enter your PIN now". I know that person can think. :)

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17 Mar 10 - 07:10 PM (#2866416)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Little Hawk

Ah, yes...but study the actual sounds.

"Pinnnn....nnnumber"

The first word ends in the "n" sound. The second word begins with the "n" sound. This makes it more comfortable (and economical) for the human tongue and palate to say "PIN number" than to say "P.I. number".

Try it and see. ;-) The first way has only 3 syllables and flows effortlessly. The 2nd way has 4 syllables and has a more awkward and broken up sonic flow. I think that's why people like to say "PIN number", because it's easier to say.

Now to say just "Pin" and not say "number at all", that's easy enough for sure, but people want to emphasize the mental concept of the "number", so it's not as satfisfying for them to just say "Pin"...which might after all be misunderstood by the listener to mean something else entirely, if the listener wasn't paying attention too closely (and that would describe about 95% of the population at any given time).

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17 Mar 10 - 08:48 PM (#2866491)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: artbrooks

How about PI (pronounced "pee") number as an easily-rememberable alternative?

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17 Mar 10 - 10:03 PM (#2866522)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Little Hawk

That would work great if you could get everyone used to it, I guess.

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18 Mar 10 - 02:08 AM (#2866609)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Lonesome EJ

In my opinion, bank cards are ridiculous. First they give you a frigging card to go out and buy things, then they send you a nasty note when there's not enough money in there to pay for it. A real frigging racket says I.

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18 Mar 10 - 12:42 PM (#2866925)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Little Hawk

It's simply a piece of plastic that allows you to purchase items without carrying (much) cash...but to make that purchase with cash you already really have in your bank account rather than cash you don't yet have (and might not have very soon). In other words, it isn't "deficit spending" to generate interest charges, which seems to be the main idea behind marketing credit cards to a self-indulgent public.

On that basis the bank card seems like a reasonably sensible idea to me, LEJ...far more sensible than credit cards. It doesn't allow you to engage in momentary-impulse deficit spending, and most people would be better off if they didn't do that, wouldn't they?

The whole idea behind credit cards is to entice a lot of people into spending more than they can pay back on time...then hitting them for big interest charges. Corporate loan sharks, in other words. That very system generates more money out of thin air (when the interest charges are assigned on top of the principle) and that creates continuing inflation of the national currency by artificially enlarging the money supply. It also encourages the general public to lose control of their finances.

They want the public to be as irresponsible as the government is.... ;-)

The final result: Almost everyone gets financially f*cked, but a very few people get incredibly rich! Sounds like adventure capitalism to me. ;-) If you play Monopoly, the same thing happens as the game progresses to its inevitable conclusion...only on a much simpler level, because there are only a few players involved.

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18 Mar 10 - 01:45 PM (#2866974)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: gnu

LH... "They want the public to be as irresponsible as the government is.... ;-)"

I wonder what the logistics of the Government accepting debit cards would be. I pay water bills, vehicle registrations... with a VISA by telephone. Hmmm.

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18 Mar 10 - 01:48 PM (#2866978)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Little Hawk

The government in Canada does accept debit cards. I paid the Ontario Ministry of Transport for my automobile license sticker update with a debit card a couple of months ago.

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18 Mar 10 - 02:29 PM (#2866999)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Jim Dixon

There are lots of things banks, credit card companies, and retailers could do to make it easier for you to avoid overdrafts. Since practically all cash registers are now computer terminals—they have to be, to check that your card isn't stolen, etc.—they could access your account balance and send you a message before you sign: "This transaction will result in an overdraft. Are you sure you want to do this?" Or, they could simply block the transaction, if you have selected this option in advance. They could store a copy of your balance in the magnetic stripe on your card, and update it every time you make a purchase or withdrawal. (I realize there might be problems keeping this up to date, with checks and deposits also in the system, but even out-of-date information is better than nothing. You could always mentally add your recent deposits and subtract your checks.) A store could provide a separate terminal where you could check your balance before you decide to buy something. (I realize ATMs can do this, but something much cheaper than an ATM could also do it.) And your cell phone could probably do it (if you have one; I don't).

Of course, the banks (etc.) don't want to make it easy for you. They'd rather convert your overdraft into a debt so they can charge you interest and fees. And the retailer wants to make the sale, regardless of whether you can afford it. So these changes will never happen unless they are required by law.

I suggested some of these changes in another forum that deals with "emerging technology" and I was surprised to find that a lot of people are hostile to the idea. Their general attitude was: if you overdraw your account, you deserve whatever happens to you.

Some people bragged that they use a credit card regularly, but they pay off the whole balance every month, so that they never pay any interest. Now, there's nothing wrong with doing that, but I resent the air of moral superiority that such people take. They imply that everyone should do that, and if you can't do it, screw you!

That's exactly what's happening: people are being screwed. If everyone paid off their balance every month, the whole system would collapse. There's no way the credit card company could afford to let you use their service for free if nobody paid any interest.

So if you use a credit card and manage to avoid paying interest, you are taking advantage of a system that is designed to screw people. Then you have a vested interest in keeping that system going, and you will be hostile to any of the improvements I have mentioned.

I consider this a moral issue.

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18 Mar 10 - 02:48 PM (#2867013)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: CarolC

If you're seeing moral superiority in my arguments, Jim, it's because you have projected them there. Maybe you're just seeing your own reflection in that mirror you're holding up.

We don't have much money. But one of the reasons we are able to live within our means is because we take advantage of opportunities to make money when they present themselves. Which is why we choose to benefit from the rewards points that accrue on our credit cards when we use them. The reason we can pay our cards off every month is because we don't live beyond our means. Our spending habits are no different using credit cards than they would be if we were writing checks or using a debit card. We spend the same amount, but we just use a credit card at the point of purchase rather than cash, checks, or a debit card. You need to be more circumspect about projecting your own motives onto other people.

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18 Mar 10 - 02:50 PM (#2867016)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Jim Dixon

CarolC: I wasn't thinking of you in particular. I was thinking of the experience I had on the other forum.

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18 Mar 10 - 03:05 PM (#2867028)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: CarolC

Ok. But since we're not on that other forum, maybe you should tailor your arguments here to fit the discussion that is taking place here so there isn't any misunderstanding.

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18 Mar 10 - 03:28 PM (#2867045)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: gnu

Jim... "There's no way the credit card company could afford to let you use their service for free if nobody paid any interest."

Nope... their cost are wellcovered and the make a profit from the fees they charge to companies... someone said 2% earlier in this thread. 2% may be negotiated by Walmart and the like, but the smaller a business you have, the higher the rates. My buddy was dinged 4.5% when he started out.

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18 Mar 10 - 03:50 PM (#2867064)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: artbrooks

The credit card companies don't charge interest - that would be the bank.   The bank also gets a cut of the processing company's (e.g., Visa's) "service charge"; one reference I've seen says that the issuing bank (i.e., the one where you have your account) gets half and the vendor's bank and Visa split the other half.

Credit card interest is basically interest on a short-term loan, and should be pretty competitive with other loans. For example, the credit card rate that I'd pay at my own bank - if I maintained a balance - is 9.9%. Home equity loans are 10.4% and personal loans 12%.

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18 Mar 10 - 05:22 PM (#2867138)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Jim Dixon

I know that retailers pay a fee to the credit card company. It averages around 2%. I just don't think this is enough to cover the costs of administering the whole system (plus a profit for the owners, of course).

I base this belief mainly on the fact that there are still a few pure charge cards out there. Charge cards are distinct from credit cards in that they require you to pay off the whole balance every month; you don't have the option of carrying a balance from month to month and paying interest.

American Express used to be strictly a charge card, not a credit card. I think they began offering credit cards (in addition to charge cards) sometime in the last 10 years or so. Diner's Club is still a charge card. Carte Blanche used to be a charge card but I think it's now defunct.

Charge-card companies always charge(d) their card-holders an annual fee in lieu of interest. Diners Club charges $300. American Express charges $55 for its Green Card, $150 for a Gold Card, $450 for a Platinum Card. (There is also a Centurion or "black card" whose fees are so outrageous that I hesitate to bring it into the discussion.) All these cards come with different perks and requirements; I don't have a clue what they are. The Blue Card, for which there is no fee, is a credit card, not a charge card.

But suffice it to say AmEx figures to make a profit on all of them. What it can't make in fees, it will make in interest.

So I figure that means that anyone who regularly uses a credit card without paying interest is getting somewhere between $55 and $450 worth of free service per year, and that is possible only because other people do pay interest. In other words, the people who pay interest are subsidizing the ones who don't.

All this quantitative information comes from Wikipedia.

No doubt it is an oversimplification to say that interest is paid to credit card companies. The relationship between banks and credit card companies is a complicated one that I didn't think we needed to get into. (And frankly, I don't understand it myself, but I think all the information is in Wikipedia if you want it.)

By the way, there is no bank involved in American Express charge cards. (That's another thing that distinguishes charge cards from credit cards.) AmEx acts as its own bank, or in lieu of a bank, however you want to put it. (There may be exceptions for the AmEx blue credit cards. It's all terribly complicated. It used to be a lot simpler. When I first learned about it, there was only one kind of AmEx card.)

I think interest on credit card debt can be way more than 12%.

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18 Mar 10 - 05:32 PM (#2867146)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Little Hawk

You are quite correct, Jim, it is a moral issue.

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18 Mar 10 - 06:23 PM (#2867192)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Joe_F

I have a bank card, which I mainly use at ATMs. I have occasionally used it accidentally instead of my credit card (less likely now that I have put a piece of tape over the asinine promotional credit-card logo on the bank card), but I would not want to do without it.

All in all, I would say that banking is one thing that has become far more convenient for the customer over the last 50 years. It used to be that if you had a savings account, you got something called a pass book, and to make a deposit or withdrawal you had to bring it to the bank (during bankers' hours) and have the new balance written in. To get cash, you had to go to the bank, unless some friendly merchant was willing to take a check & give you a little cash back; if you weren't careful, you could run out of cash on the weekend & have to borrow some. These days, I have gone whole years without having to worry about when the bank was open.

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18 Mar 10 - 07:03 PM (#2867227)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: artbrooks

According to creditcards.com, there were $14.9 billion US in Visa and Mastercard transactions in 2009. I'd think 2% of that would finance the system and pay an absolutely obscene profit!

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18 Mar 10 - 08:00 PM (#2867257)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Lonesome EJ

I agree with you, LH. I'm just being a smartass as usual.

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18 Mar 10 - 08:22 PM (#2867271)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Little Hawk

Righto. ;-)

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18 Mar 10 - 08:50 PM (#2867296)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Jim Dixon

Thanks, Little Hawk. I'm glad to know someone at least understands what I'm saying. (Agreeing with me isn't as important as understanding, but I tend to take it for granted that, if you say you agree with me, you must understand me!)

And I should say that, by calling it a moral issue, I'm not necessarily claiming any moral high ground for myself. My personal position is mixed. I have both a debit card and a credit card. Most of the time, I use my debit card. My wife, who mainly manages our finances, prefers that, at certain times, such as when we go on vacation, we use the credit card. I think that's because she likes to see all our vacation-related expenses on one statement, separated from other expenses, so she can see more clearly what the vacation is costing us. It's also a safeguard against overdrawing our checking account. More power to her: since she's willing to do all the paperwork, I'm willing to comply.

When we get the credit card statement, we pay the whole thing. That only happens once or twice a year.

I think the moral issue mainly comes in when you decide to either support or oppose reforms in the banking industry. Unfortunately, too many people look no farther than "what's in it for me?"

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18 Mar 10 - 09:17 PM (#2867307)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: Little Hawk

My monthly bank statement does give me a written record of where and when I have spent money using the debit card...and how much, of course.

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18 Mar 10 - 10:04 PM (#2867327)
Subject: RE: BS: Anyone else refuse to get a bank card?
From: CarolC

I think it's food for thought, but beyond that, I haven't decided what to think of it yet. Hey Jim, if you were to sell your house (or theoretical house if you don't actually own one), would you want to sell it for a profit? Do you own any stocks?

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