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28 May 10 - 06:13 AM (#2915879) Subject: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: mauvepink Once again there seems to be subtle undertones about prostitutes somehow being 'less important' when they get murdered than other people in society. Or that because of the job they have they somehow can expect what happens to them. Why does the fact they are prostitutes always have to be slipped into sentences when they are mentioned? When you read of other murder cases the occupations of the victims seldom get such regular mention. I just read Fear returns to the Ripper's streets . The BBC's coverage has, on the whole, appeared to be quite sympathetic and talks of the women in terms of titles or Christian names. But even they let it slip at times. In the above article they say "Back then, it took six years to find and convict Peter Sutcliffe, the Yorkshire Ripper, for killing 13 women - mainly prostitutes - and trying to murder seven more. ". But why is it so necessary to that sentence to make yet another mention of being prostitutes? They do not mention the occupations of those who were not. Why is this I wonder. When they report loss of life in a war zone they never say "Three men - mostly soldiers - were killed today by a landmine. Yet the article above is also so touching and sympathetic as such. One of the most touching comments is "At the moment, support for women is all about vaginas and veins - not the heart and soul. ". Indeed they do have hearts and souls. Is it me or does anyone else get annoyed at the way these women are somehow put across as being less deserving of sympathy because of the work they do? I remember when the women were killed in Ipswich. Reg Meuross wrote a beautiful song after he heard one of the girls mothers talking on a radio show. It really puts things into perspective. The words are below. If you get a chance to hear it then please give it a hearing mp Until I hold you close again It's time to put your red dress on, and see how beautiful you are Now the night is almost gone, you will be my falling star As the shadows turn to gold, And our tears to fallen rain, Leave a promise I can hold, Until I hold you once again I watch you brush your yellow hair Run your fingers through the sun My body aches to touch you there But time is short and you must run I know the others see your face The eyes and mouth that I adore And wish that they could take my place Until I hold you close once more A Mother's arms are safe and sure A Mother's arms are soft and pure This kind of love no man will know I'll still love you when you go I know you've got your work to do There's broken hearts for you to mend I know the pain that men go through And those who only need a friend And when you close that hotel door What happens there I'll never ask I will only miss you more Until I hold you close at last |
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28 May 10 - 06:26 AM (#2915886) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: Will Fly It's journalism, isn't it? Most of the "media" are there to make money and they know that highlighting sex, sleaze, salaciousness and the seamier side of life sells. Sad, but true. |
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28 May 10 - 06:34 AM (#2915887) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: Keith A of Hertford I think that your concern is misplaced here. The murders only become newsworthy because they are serial killings. Had there been a number of accountants killed in similar circumstances and locations, that would be reported on. |
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28 May 10 - 06:37 AM (#2915889) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: mauvepink ... an interesting point Keith and one I had not considered. Thanks. I see what you mean and it does put another angle on it for sure mp |
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28 May 10 - 06:49 AM (#2915891) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: Amergin Most prostitutes have had their souls taken from them by their bad choices....mainly that of permitting drugs to control their lives.... however, there are those who have had the job forced upon them by their "owners". |
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28 May 10 - 07:00 AM (#2915896) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Yes, it does upset me. As an aside however, last night's History Cold Case, was extremely affecting. They uncovered the story of a Victorian child prostitute who died in her late teens with an advanced case of syphilis, and was buried in an unmarked grave at Cross-Bones, an unconsecrated burial ground for prostitutes and paupers. Up to 15,000 poor are supposed to be buried there. Bodies up to ten deep in the earth. It was closed due to it being so crammed with the dead. There's a power station built upon the site now, which rather goes to show how little value the dispossessed continue to have in the modern day.. And yet, ordinary people treat the place as a shrine to the outcast dead, and meet there in vigil to remember them. |
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28 May 10 - 07:08 AM (#2915901) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: Arnie Another triumph for CCTV! I know that it has it's detractors and have some sympathy with the anti-surveillance society arguement. However, if Griffiths hadn't been spotted on camera with one of his victims, he'd still be out on the streets. Of course, he hasn't been found guilty yet but the evidence against him seems to be stacking up. I wonder if the Yorkshire Ripper would have had such a long run if the same level of surveillance had been available back then? It was pure chance that he was finally captured - a diligent copper checked out the number-plate of a parked car one night and found it to be false. As for the girls being prostitutes, I suppose it is worth reporing their profession in order to put the crime into some sort of context - Griffiths preyed on prostitutes as they are the most vulnerable women in society and their way of working presented him with the opportunity. |
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28 May 10 - 07:11 AM (#2915904) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: GUEST,Kendall When we are dead we all gain equality. Kings and paupers are all alike. |
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28 May 10 - 08:11 AM (#2915916) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: Keith A of Hertford CCTV got this one, and the DNA database got the Ipswich killer. But for that he would have killed more. |
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28 May 10 - 08:25 AM (#2915925) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: SINSULL A male prostitute was murdered in my NY neighborhood - brutalized. His eyes were removed with a claw hammer. I knew one of the murderers. Drugs played a part. But I was horrified at the number of people who thought "he had it coming" for soliciting men and young boys. The street was known as Vaseline Alley by locals and the police alike. Male prostitution was unchecked. The murderers went out looking for a "fag" to beat up. So the only one responsible for his death was himself? His mother did not think so nor did the jury. |
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28 May 10 - 09:28 AM (#2915950) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: Uncle_DaveO Mauvepink commented, in part: "convict Peter Sutcliffe, the Yorkshire Ripper, for killing 13 women - mainly prostitutes - and trying to murder seven more. " The "mainly prostitutes" gives an insight into his M.O., in that it suggests his target population, maybe his motivation, or perhaps his means of access to victims. Any of those pieces of information may give a leg up in the hunt for the perpetrator, although in this case he had evidently been caught and convicted. and further: When they report loss of life in a war zone they never say "Three men - mostly soldiers - were killed In a war zone, those killed are normally assumed to be military. If the distinction is relevant, they would probably report that "(A number of) men, some of whom were civilians, were killed." Dave Oesterreich |
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28 May 10 - 09:33 AM (#2915953) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: Jim Dixon Actually, the media do say things like "Five soldiers and two civilians were killed...." And they should. They might not mention the occupations of the civilians, but it might not be relevant. Probably the goal was to kill soldiers. That makes it part of the story. If it's part of a serial killer's modus operandi to kill prostitutes, that fact needs to be mentioned. Prostitutes are at greater risk of violence than other people. Pimps are sometimes violent. Maybe that's only because prostitution is illegal, but unless the legal situation changes, the violence will be part of the story. I wonder how many prostitutes are illegal aliens? |
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28 May 10 - 09:40 AM (#2915958) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: catspaw49 I think the news may go a bit too far at times............ British Prostitutes |
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28 May 10 - 09:44 AM (#2915960) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: Keith A of Hertford In this context, not very funny. |
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28 May 10 - 09:45 AM (#2915961) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: GUEST,CrazyEddie I noticed that on BBC Radio 4, the phraseology used was "suspected of killing three women, who worked as prostitutes" rather than "suspected of killing three prostitutes". I took this to be an effore to highlight that the victims were people first & foremost, & that their occupation was mentioned purely because it seemed to be relevant to the crime. I don't know if other stations used this phraseology. |
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28 May 10 - 09:48 AM (#2915963) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: GUEST,mauvepink Thank you all for your comments and insights thus far. It is always helpful to get others views and feelings on many subjects. I dare say many prostitutes are illegal aliens (a horrible term in itself) but very often not of their own choice. Some will have come here with the promise of better things. The sex slave trade (as well as sweat shop establishments) is alive and well, sadly, and these women (and some men) should be saved and protected rather than thought of in any way as being 'illegal' immigrants. They are victims in many cases themselves. mp |
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28 May 10 - 10:53 AM (#2915986) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: Jim Dixon Sometimes I use "insensitive" terms like "prostitute" instead of "sex worker" or "illegal alien" instead of "undocumented immigrant." It's not because of any insensitivity on my part. Actually I'm one of the most sensitive people on the planet, God damn it! Rather it's because I'm skeptical of the idea that you can change people's attitudes by making them change the words they use. More likely, the old bad attitudes will, in time, get attached to the new words. Then people will try to invent newer words, and so on. |
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28 May 10 - 11:09 AM (#2915995) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: GUEST,mauvepink Jim, I never actually took your comment as any way insensitive. Rather I answered the question as I see it before anyone else did. You are right, of course, and what is needed is a shift in attitudes and not just wording from some. Sorry if it looked like my answer was attacking in any way. mp |
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28 May 10 - 11:24 AM (#2916007) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: Seayaker IMO the coverage of cases like the Yorkshire Ripper, Ipswitch, and Bradford have made people aware of, and more sympathetic to, the plight of the women who are in this situation mainly to feed a drugs habit. Prostitution has always been with us and always will be so it's perhaps time to regard it as a social problem that needs control and treatment rather than criminalisation and prosecution. I applaud the comments on CCTV and DNA as they solve crime and can prove innocence as well as guilt. It would be a retrograde step to limmit the use of these tools and I cannot understand what the concerns are. |
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28 May 10 - 04:24 PM (#2916187) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: GUEST,Tunesmith I wonder how the media would react if a killer started to target prostitute's clients! I bet they wouldn't described them as "johns" or any such similar term. |
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28 May 10 - 06:20 PM (#2916270) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: CET If a serial killer targeted prostitute's clients, the press would certainly report that part of the killer's modus operandi. They might not use the slang term "john", although the tabloid press probably would. However, this thread isn't about the press using derogatory terms for prostitutes. It has to do with the perception that the press mentions the occupation of the victims in a way that suggests that their lives are less valuable than those of other people. It's a perception that I have sympathy for, but I have to disagree with it. In a case like this, prostitution has to be part of the story. |
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28 May 10 - 06:47 PM (#2916282) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: McGrath of Harlow Headline on Press Association story today about a non-related case: "Postman admits child sex offences" I somehow don't think the implication is that postmen are a pariah group to be distrusted and despised... |
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29 May 10 - 11:00 AM (#2916574) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: GUEST,kendall The statement "He/she had it coming" is one of the stupidest comments ever made. |
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29 May 10 - 04:01 PM (#2916729) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: Stringsinger It's reprehensible that prostitutes are being murdered. But there is no point in glamorizing prostitution as a business or way of life as well as promoting pornography. I'm ready to argue this case with those that disagree. Prostitution is based on sexploitation. They are misguided human beings in need of help. |
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29 May 10 - 04:18 PM (#2916741) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) "They are misguided human beings in need of help." I personally think that there are a percentage of prostitutes who fall into the job because they are damaged people being exploited by human sharks - but there are those who are not. I've seen very interesting interviews with fully mature, intelligent and grounded women who have chosen prostitution freely, because they enjoy the work and it pays well! I believe the answer to weeding out the former group, is legalisation of brothels (ideally run by madams or female ex-sex workers) and proper standards implemented, where the women are tested to ensure they are free from drugs and disease. |
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29 May 10 - 05:06 PM (#2916787) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: VirginiaTam Right on Sister Crow. I was going to say the same about brothels... It would provide safe place for both sex workers and the customers and ideally provide support for dealing with the emotional damage issues and moving out of the trade if they so wished. And it need not be for women sex workers only. Also would address the concern (for some) of whether they are in the country illegally, though I don't see how Jim's question follows the original post, specially considering the women murdered recently (last few years) were all natural citizens. |
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29 May 10 - 05:11 PM (#2916791) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: Stringsinger Crow Sister, the reason I disagree with you is that the negative aspects of prostitution as an institution and a business outweighs the intent of the "mature, intelligent and well grounded" women that you mention. Surely given the malfeasance of our contemporary business institutions, the controls you cite will not be there. Our country can't even drill for oil let alone support the "drilling" of prostitutes. Legalization of prostitution as a stop-gap to deter rapists and perverts won't work. They require victims. The problem with having brothels legalized and run by prostitutes is that the "foxes will be guarding the hen house". The culture of prostitution is not healthy but given to association with the criminal underworld. Pimps are beneath contempt. Today, there are places that have standards of disease control such as in Nevada but it's not just the physical aspect of prostitution but the mental aberrations that it causes. Sex for bucks is not psychologically sound. Prostitution is not healthy on Wall Street or the Industrial Military Complex. Why should it be any different in the sex industry (which is attached BTW to the porn industry). |
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29 May 10 - 05:48 PM (#2916822) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) "And it need not be for women sex workers only." Good point Tam, it can be easy to forget there are plenty of male sex workers too. In fact I recall one really excellent Beeb doco about a (gay in this instance) male prostitute living in Cambridge, there was nothing 'exploited' about him. Stringsinger, I have quite a number of responses to your post above - but will get back in detail tomorrow. |
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29 May 10 - 08:07 PM (#2916923) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: kendall "I don't care what they do, as long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses." (Lady Campbell) |
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30 May 10 - 06:06 AM (#2917106) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: Arnie mauvepink - I know from my last job that when illegal immigrants (we don't use the term aliens in the UK) working in the sex trade are arrested, they are handed over to a police team that specifically provides assistance for trafficked women. I never saw any examples of men being trafficked for the sex trade. The women are kept in safe houses and if they wish to claim asylum, which they frequently do, then they receive help with their claim. If they eventually have to return home, then this too is dealt with as sensitively as possible. One arguement against legalised brothels is that a lot of street-walking prostitutes lead such chaotic lives that they would not be welcomed by most brothel owners. |
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30 May 10 - 06:41 AM (#2917120) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: GUEST,Shimrod Sometimes some people make bad life choices (for all sorts of reasons) and sometimes those choices can have negative implications for the communities in which those people live. I'm thinking of the chaos which drug dealing and drug use can bring to communities and the profoundly negative effects of practices like kerb crawling. And, yes, male 'clients' or 'customers' (a key word in our consumer economy!)are just as much to blame as the prostitutes. But NO-ONE 'deserves' to be murdered! Taking the life of another person is a heinous crime, whoever the victim is. Nevertheless, cruel, callous monsters who murder people (whoever they are) in order to gain some warped satisfaction need to be caught and locked up. |
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30 May 10 - 07:51 AM (#2917132) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: GUEST,mauvepink Thanks for that arnie. When I said "and some men" I was talking of boys. I am sure there are boys thats are trafficked for sex too. There are lots of references to it on the internet. there is one Here is one such mention. Perhaps the law deals with it differently in some way here in the uk? mp |
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30 May 10 - 11:44 AM (#2917203) Subject: RE: BS: Prostitutes are human beings too From: wysiwyg Also true: [anygroup] are human beings, too Often ALSO true: people so often say these things without any awareness that some of the people already present in their midst are (or have been) "[anygroup]," and are either not admitting it, not confessing it, not sharing it, or just not focusing on it. ~Susan |