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BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

31 May 10 - 01:12 AM (#2917513)
Subject: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: michaelr

How much longer can the US justify supporting the Israeli terror against peaceful civilians? Story here.

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31 May 10 - 01:38 AM (#2917517)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: DougR

For a long, long time, Michaelr. Israel is the best friend we have in the mid-east. Probably the only one, actually.

DougR


31 May 10 - 02:08 AM (#2917520)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Little Hawk

Naturally, Doug. Your government's imperial policies there directly or indirectly attack, exploit, and oppress everyone in that entire region except Israel. You are partners in crime there, so why wouldn't they be your only friend in the area under such conditions? It's rather like Al Capone saying that one of his top hit men is his "good friend".   Common interests is what that is, not friendship.

Mussolini was Hitler's "good friend" too, you know...and then there was Beria and Stalin...similar arrangements.


31 May 10 - 02:27 AM (#2917523)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: polaitaly

On the italian press the dead reported are at least 16.


31 May 10 - 03:58 AM (#2917537)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

Israel will make peace when they have completely taken over the west bank and forced all the palestinians into Jordan or overseas, then starved out Gaza so they all flee or die as well. They have their own chapter in "Famous violations of the Geneva Conventions and other international agreements." It's a very sad and angering thing.


31 May 10 - 05:33 AM (#2917551)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

The Israeli Government and Military are ruthless criminals.

Last night they murdered 20 civilians in international waters.

They did this to prevent food, medicine and building materials for schools and hospitals from gettng through to a city dying of poverty.

Let Obama, Cameron and Clegg be judged by their reactions.

And if they are not united in utterly condemning Israels actions last night then damn them to hell.

I spit in the eye of anyone who dares to defend such a horrendous crime against humanity.


31 May 10 - 05:37 AM (#2917553)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Mark Regev, the Israeli spokesman says:

"They initiated the violence, that's 100% clear"

Presumably this was after hundreds of armed commandos descended from helicopters and climbed on board from rubber dinghies and stormed the ships.

What a fucking liar!


31 May 10 - 05:40 AM (#2917555)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

If anyone else did this it'd be recognized for what it is - piracy on the high seas.


31 May 10 - 06:58 AM (#2917576)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

TROLL ALERT!

The post by GUESTheric must be an imposter.

It states "he never got enough of them" referring apparently to Hitler and the Jews.

I have never read a post by Heric advocating such views.

Anti semitic bullshit is not welcome on the mudcat.

Anti semites are not welcome on my political platform.


I will be requesting that Guest posts are excluded from this thread.
    The post does appear to be from an impostor, so I deleted it. -Joe Offer-


31 May 10 - 07:39 AM (#2917594)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim McLean

I agree with LOX and this should not be an anti Jewish thread. However this attack on the civilian aid convoy cannot, must not go without some form of very strong protest from everyone. How can one make one's voice heard effectively?


31 May 10 - 07:43 AM (#2917596)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

Be interesting to hear what the resident Canadians have to say?


31 May 10 - 07:50 AM (#2917597)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

By which I mean, how this incident is reported there and so-on - in view of Canada's public position regards Israel.


31 May 10 - 08:00 AM (#2917604)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Riginslinger

What is Canada's public position regarding Israel?


31 May 10 - 08:45 AM (#2917623)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: artbrooks

Well, I'm not condoning the attack - if it happened as reported by one side and not the other. On the other hand, Israel is at war and Gaza is blockaded - and I have no interest in discussing the legality of the war or Israel's existence for the umpteen zillionith time. The Israelis said that the aid on that convoy would be delivered if landed at a regular port. The actions of the convoy's leaders were intended solely to provoke the response that they did, not to assist the Palestinians.


31 May 10 - 09:27 AM (#2917633)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens

Atrocity is a bit strong isn't it? If they'd blown the ships out of the water, or bombed a mosque, that would be an atrocity. This looks like the heavy-handed sort of escalation that happens in a war, a tragedy but not an atrocity. Still, we need to hear more acounts yet.


31 May 10 - 09:46 AM (#2917641)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Arnie

It's significant that the Turks got involved in this convoy to help the people of Gaza. In fact the mother ship was the Mavi Marmara (Blue Marmaris) flying a Turkish flag. Turkey has always had a secular constitution but is now run by an Islamic government who sympathize with the Palestinians in Gaza. So far the Turkish army has successfully protected Turkey's secularism (using the occasional military coup) but the present Islamic government is forever pushing the boundaries. Turkey also has the largest land army in Nato and plenty of modern armaments. The Turks are today burning Israeli flags in the streets. I studied in Turkey many years ago and can attest that they are not the sort of people you want to annoy.


31 May 10 - 10:03 AM (#2917652)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bankley

Canada has a free trade deal with Israel... the anti-defamation league(B'nai Brith) pressured the Feds. to deny entry to George Galloway last year... but another George (W. Bush) was allowed in twice. (My friend is facing a sentencing on June 07 for trying to arrest the former President in Calgary for war crimes.)

I personally boycott anything coming out of the Blue Star State, whether it's from the occupied territories or otherwise...and remain outspoken through my art... 'some are born to the music, some are born to the gun'
My sympathies are with the victims of this latest tragedy and their families... remember Rachel Corrie


31 May 10 - 10:09 AM (#2917656)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

"Canada as Israel's strongest supporter"

As a side-matter the Israeli president is in fact over there right now having tea & biccies with the Canadian president. Then he's popping over for a natter with Obama tomorrow.


31 May 10 - 10:11 AM (#2917657)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

Oops, now he's not..


31 May 10 - 10:46 AM (#2917678)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"Atrocity is a bit strong isn't it?"

What is the cut off limit that distingishes a mass murder from an atrocity?

25 dead? 30? 100?

It was a flotilla of Aid agencies bringing humanitarian aid to people who need it.

It was in international waters.

It was no threat to Israeli National security.

There is no moral, legal or military argument to support these actions.



"if it happened as reported by one side and not the other"

The information about the numbers of dead is corroborated by Israeli news sources.

There has been no information from those in the flotilla since the Israeli Navy blacked out all communications.

Why did they do this?

We await the testimony of those on board.

I will be paying careful attention to the testimony of the Irish members of parliament who were on board.



"The actions of the convoy's leaders were intended solely to provoke the response that they did, not to assist the Palestinians."



This is your opinion. It is uncorroborated.

Regardless of which it is a poor excuse for the murder of 20 Aid agency workers.


31 May 10 - 10:55 AM (#2917689)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"Sometimes we have to look into our own back yards before we start pointing fingers at our neighbours down the street. "


Yes I agree.

The British and American Government, our governments, are sitting in our back yard giiving tacit support to a campaign of repression and violence in Gaza, a place described by Gerald Kaufman (a friend of Golda Meyer and Tsipi Livni) as being comparable to the Warsaw Ghetto.


"The Israelis said that the aid on that convoy would be delivered if landed at a regular port."


What about the medical and dental surgeries on board the ships designed to give Gazan's access to a doctor or dentist?

How exactly were they meant to deliver these things without the ships going too?

And how about the Aid workers?


The majority of Aid to Gaza has been smuggled in. The UN and all the main Aid agencies all contradict the Israeli claim that they are allowing enough aid in.

In fact they all support a view that Israel is starving Gazans of the things they need to survive.



"and I have no interest in discussing the legality of the war or Israel's existence for the umpteen zillionith time"


Well you are the only person to bring these issues into the discussion, so if you could try and stick to the point that would be appreciated.


31 May 10 - 11:14 AM (#2917709)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stilly River Sage

Proclaiming that you're friends with the neighborhood bully and not working to stop the bad behavior is nothing to brag about. Frankly, this "friend" needs a good Three Stooges-style dope slap.

Israel as a nation has taken on some of the characteristics of the countries that abused Jews in WWII. That is clear. Their treatment of the Palestinians, and such prolonged time they spend in camps - generations! It is appalling. This American says Israel has none of my support as long as they continue to stir up their neighbors in the Middle East. If they settled on the land allotted and were good neighbors, I think things now would be a lot different now.

New York Times stories are a lot more durable than anything via Yahoo news (the first link).


31 May 10 - 11:16 AM (#2917711)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

"There is no moral, legal or military argument to support these actions."

I guess the Israeli president disagrees with you as he's given the attack his "full backing".

In regard how this event may play out world-wide, it's interesting to watch the various immediate responses from different nations. The US response in particular is telling (particularly in light of the scheduled meeting tomorrow I thought) as it was the most mildly worded I've read thus far, expressing "regret" for a "tragedy" rather than condemnation of an attack.


31 May 10 - 11:18 AM (#2917713)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Gerald Kaufman


31 May 10 - 11:22 AM (#2917719)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

EDIT: "it's interesting to watch the various immediate OFFICIAL responses from different nations."


31 May 10 - 01:15 PM (#2917786)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stu

More dead people. Soon more . . . and more . . . and more . . . and more . . . and more. . . and more (repeat ad infinitum).

I guess humans have an unquenchable desire for blood and gore, as well as an unnerving ability to inflict upon and ignore the suffering of other living beings. Shame really, so much potential as a race too.


31 May 10 - 01:27 PM (#2917797)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Joe Offer

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31 May 10 - 01:29 PM (#2917804)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Israel will never allow a free Palestinian state.
As long as Israel keeps their boot on the Middle East, there will never be peace in the region.


31 May 10 - 01:32 PM (#2917808)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bill D

"...but, Daddy...HE started it!"

There's plenty of blame, provocation and guilt to go around.


31 May 10 - 01:38 PM (#2917811)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

Actually, WHO started it isn't generally irrelevant in wars. I mean if the second world war went on long enough, detractors could have used precisely the same bland dismissive platitude regards the responsibility of the Germans for 'starting it'.


31 May 10 - 02:03 PM (#2917824)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke

The lesson: end Israel now. I mean the Jewish state. There's no room in the world for single-interest states, whether Jewish, Aryan, Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu or Pagan.

It was a mistake- it started as an honest mistake born of 19th century romantic nationalism, was made more dishonest by willing to be co-opted by British oil interests in the 30s (because the Mesopotamia pipeline went that way), further by using the cold war as a lever to secure US patronage, and ended up blackmailing the USA who can't even ask politely that they should obey international law.

But the result is that there will probably be another Holocaust- in 5 years, 50 years, 500 years- and next time nobody will be particularly surprised.

As you reap.


31 May 10 - 02:12 PM (#2917827)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Barden of England

Am I missing a point here? People keep mentioning 'war' but has there been a declaration of war? And if so on whom?
This is an illegal act in international waters and all countries should condemn it as such, otherwise the occupation of vessels off the coast of Somalia may well be seen to be legal. What the Isralei's have done is no better than what Somali pirates have done.
John Barden


31 May 10 - 02:16 PM (#2917828)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

Bloody Monday


31 May 10 - 02:21 PM (#2917830)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

Yes John, I was responding to the dismissive comment by Bill D. But my example wasn't strictly appropriate to this situation..

Otherwise, I agree with Paul Burke making the point about single-interest states.


31 May 10 - 03:11 PM (#2917865)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke

A reconciliation process on the South African model- we are talking about a similar situation to the ending of the Boer state- in which both Israel and Palestine are placed under international jurisdiction, all religious privileges in both states de- recognised, illegal settlers given the choice of returning to Israel or becoming full Palestinian citizens without special privileges, a water commission appointed to correct the imbalance in those rights, an arms commission to regulate all clandestine WMDs, an open door to Europe and the USA for all those who can not live with a non- apartheid state.

Just for starters.


31 May 10 - 04:11 PM (#2917909)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke

How are we going to get any solution when people think stupidly?


31 May 10 - 04:18 PM (#2917917)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stilly River Sage

If it isn't a declared war, John, it is a defacto war. Same difference. People are dying, injustices are being heaped upon civilians and nations in the area.

SRS


31 May 10 - 04:22 PM (#2917920)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic

Specifically who did what to whom and when is still uncertain as I write this.

Challenging a blockade is itself an act with military pretensions.

There is a significant pall around this whole affair to indicate that it has been stage managed precisely to lend support to such outlandish statements as the title of this thread or the message from Paul Burke, above.

There is a significant irony here. I think the tactic of casting support for the innocent Palestinian civilians against the bloodthirsty Israeli state is getting perceived as just that, and is getting a little old. Let's see how long the manufactured state of world outrage lasts.

Meanwhile, the Palestinians live miserably, Israel's marginalization continues, and a buildup to something more sinister, more outrageous, and considerably more bloodthirsty continues.


31 May 10 - 04:49 PM (#2917946)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"Challenging a blockade is itself an act with military pretensions."

Its called civil disobedience.

It worked for Ghandi.

It worked for Martin Luther King.

It worked for them because it made very clear who had the moral high ground.


So let me get this straight ... the crack force of elite commandos, armed to the teeth, who abseiled uninvited onto a ship in international waters with the express intentiopn of Hijacking it, were only acting in self defence when they shot at least 40 people, killing 19 of them?


31 May 10 - 04:50 PM (#2917947)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

Video showing Israeli soldiers being greeted as they arrive on board the Turkish ship, Mavi Marmara. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded


31 May 10 - 05:00 PM (#2917953)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

Israel spokesman reaction to raid on Gaza convoy

http://vodpod.com/watch/3739834-israel-spokesman-reaction-to-raid-on-gaza-convoy


31 May 10 - 05:01 PM (#2917955)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Seen it bobad - I've also seen footage that serves as evidence that Israeli covering fire began before the first abseilers landed on the ship.

This despite a white flag being flown.

Regardless of which, this was a civilian ship in international waters being boarded by a force whose sole purpose was to hijack it.

The idea that the civilians on board the ship were the agressors only makes sense if you are high on crack.


31 May 10 - 05:06 PM (#2917960)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"I've also seen footage that serves as evidence that Israeli covering fire began before the first abseilers landed on the ship."

Oh yes, and that there were wounded passengers.



The Purpose, intent and cargo of the ship were transparent for all to investigate. Thet were completely open and that is why there were so many oservers from the media and from internatonal parliaments on board.

The only secrecy involved was when The Israeli Navy imposed a blackout.

The only unknowns exist After the hijacking.


The Israeli spokesman is Lying.


31 May 10 - 05:25 PM (#2917972)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Royston

The question "who started it?" is, contrary to some views expressed here, very important indeed.

Could it perhaps have been the European Zionists that invaded Palestine (in a flotilla of boats, ironically) in the late '40s to embark on the first modern terror campaign; assassinations, bombings of the civilian population in hotels and restaurants and market-places?

Yes, it was. So now we know who started it. And we certainly know who is perpetuating it.

North Americans, jeesh. Jews invade Palestine and ghetto-ise the natives. And then in your view, it is the uppity, unreasonable natives that are the cause of all the troubles. Where do you get that idea from? The push west? Mexico? Yes, it all starts to make sense. But of course you're not colonialists at all, that accusation is still reserved for us isn't it?


31 May 10 - 05:27 PM (#2917973)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe

The Military was used - thus it is a War Crime. A State of War already exists due to the blockade, anyway.


31 May 10 - 05:34 PM (#2917977)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll

"Well, I'm not condoning the attack..... On the other hand, Israel is at war and Gaza is blockaded"
Israel is not at watr - it has invaded someone elses territory in order to settle on it.
Sorry - you are condoning the attack.
Jim Carroll


31 May 10 - 05:51 PM (#2917982)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke

Someone has deleted a response to one of my potsts; idiotic though it was, it wasn't objectionable in any way. Moderators: this topic is important, inasfar as anything in the forum is. Please allow all reasonably expressed opinions to appear.
Please read the first message in this thread. No guest posts here. --Mod


31 May 10 - 06:52 PM (#2918017)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim McLean

I saw/heard someone on BBC tonight saying that the commandos did not have machine guns but PAINT guns!


31 May 10 - 07:15 PM (#2918035)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Riginslinger

In any event, it looks like they sure pissed off Turkey.

   "Otherwise, I agree with Paul Burke making the point about single-interest states."

            I agree with Paul and Crow Sister as well.


31 May 10 - 09:12 PM (#2918079)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bill D

"... the dismissive comment by Bill D."

It was not 'dismissive'. It was a short version of 15 paragraphs noting how you can blame EITHER side, depending on your subjective point of view and what your basic premises are and which 'events' you use as your starting point!

"but, Daddy, he started it!" might be true, IF my little brother ate one of MY candies from my table, and not true IF I had taken more than my share from the bag when he wasn't looking. And we could all blame Daddy for not supervising the division.

So...do we blame the UN for agreeing to give Israel that land? Or the Israelis for interpreting the gift too broadly? Or the Muslims in the Middle-East for being unwilling to share?....or the Germans for creating sympathy for the Jews? Or ...or... just the basic old human 'my tribe is more important than your tribe' attitude?

I have watched YEARS of copy & paste 'proof' of who was to blame for both general & specific conflicts in that area. It is as clear as who is to blame in Ireland, the Baltics, Indo-China, or street gangs in Los Angeles.

"We have met the enemy, and it is US!"
                            Pogo Possum

...oh, sorry to have interrupted those of you who know the answers...please carry on...


31 May 10 - 09:16 PM (#2918080)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: artbrooks

To those who wish to consider my comments as condoning an attack or defending disproportionate response to provocations...please read for a change.


01 Jun 10 - 12:07 AM (#2918157)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

"The Israelis said that the aid on that convoy would be delivered if landed at a regular port."

Is Gaza under blockade, or not? If it is, then the aid would not have been delivered and that's a lie. If it is not, there is no excuse for the raid. Choose your poison.


01 Jun 10 - 08:38 AM (#2918191)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Charley Noble

This is another sad episode in the seemingly never-ending war between Palestinians and Israelis. Both people in my opinion have legitimate grievances and aspirations. In this case the Freedom Flotilla was challenging Israel's right to blockade the coast of Gaza. As mentioned earlier above:

"Challenging a blockade is itself an act with military pretensions."

As I recall such action is exactly what the Israelis did to break the British blockade of Palestine after World War 2, as was dramatized in the novel and film EXODUS.

Looking at the Israelis video, it's certainly apparent that the rappelling Israelis commandos were indeed attacked with metal posts, chairs, and anything else that was readily available. It is not at all clear what action by the Israelis provoked the attack, given that the Israelis confiscated video by others (but some will surface soon, I imagine).

On balance I would assume that the Israelis will lose in this incident more from world public opinion that will the Palestinians and their supporters.

Such words of wisdom!

Charley Noble


01 Jun 10 - 10:09 AM (#2918229)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Richard Bridge

I am not an expert on the law of the sea, but I suspect that the international protocols that permit aggressive action in support of a blockade only apply to a lawful blockade, and I am doubtful whether this one is so.

If war had been declared then the Geneva convention would apply and many many of the Israeli actions over the years would have ben contrary to that.

I understood Menzies Campbell to say earlier today that probably the law of the vessel was Turkish, so I am unclear that the use of automatic rifles against people armed with chair legs was lawful force. I suspect it was not.

Er - no, I don't think they were painball guns. Why on earth would anyone have been carrying paintball guns, and how would they have killed so many with them?


01 Jun 10 - 10:37 AM (#2918245)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: catspaw49

Why on earth would anyone have been carrying paintball guns, and how would they have killed so many with them?

Lead poisoning?

Y'all do realize there is no forseeable end to this? Over time even this will be absorbed into the history of the region. And when it comes to history of the region the faults of many over all these years make it impossible to ever agree on what can, will, or should be done. Nothing will.........

Spaw


01 Jun 10 - 10:50 AM (#2918253)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens

I would not hav e liked toi be the first guy down the rope being greeted by the "peace activists".


01 Jun 10 - 10:51 AM (#2918254)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

Piracy is the correct word for what happened.

Defending oneself against piracy in international waters is never a crime. The killing of those defenders however, is a crime, and one worthy of the severest penalty.

Israel is out of control, and unless the West stops supporting its illegal bullying of its neighbours, there will be a catastrophic meltdown in the region.

This is not a case of Jews against Muslims, and it should be made clear that this is so.

Two states are involved, Israel and Palestine, and trying to pretend that it is a religious conflict obscures the real issue.

Israel must be made to understand that it can no longer rely on the "Victims of the Holocaust" excuse for its current behaviour.

The Holocaust killed six million Jews, who were German, French, Polish, Hungarian, Czechoslovakian, Romanian, Russian, and on and on and on.

To try to pretend that they are all children of a single nation is nonsense. They share a single religion, and for that they were persecuted. That does not confer upon them the right to occupy an ever increasing portion of somebody else's country.

Israel is a State, and there is no other state which would be supported in annexing its neighbours' territory, by the Western nations.

It's time to tell them enough is enough, or we will have a war in the Middle East which will surpass, in ferocity, anything seen hitherto on this planet.

Don T.


01 Jun 10 - 11:02 AM (#2918262)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stu

"Y'all do realize there is no forseeable end to this?'

Too true Spaw.

As a race it seems we won't be happy until we're all neck deep in the blood, piss, shit and gore of the millions of innocents who die every year as a consequence of some asinine philosophic, religious, nationalistic or economic action perpetrated by those without the wit or insight to even understand their or any else's own massive failings; who can't see beyond their own need to own, control and dominate. The sad thing is that buy and larger we let the bastards get away with it, scared of what the price we might have to pay for any real progress.

As for the UN - a talking shop for those poultroons, lickspittles and feckless tosspots who have to huddle together and reassure themselves they are 'doing the right thing' despite knowing they're not but being too afraid to let it all go for fear of what they'd lose. It's a commercial outlet these days, bereft of moral authority as those whom would say they serve/rule/occupy/oppress* us strike secret or unreported deals in back rooms in their ivory tower of glass and hipocrisy in NYC and then head downtown for a cocktail and a blowjob. They might as well, apparently they can't or won't enforce their resolutions unless it seems some sort of commercial interest is served; ask the Tibetans, an even more abandoned people than the Palestinians.

Fuck them all.

*Delete where applicable according to your countries type of government


01 Jun 10 - 12:54 PM (#2918319)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Piracy, as noted above, is the proper word. Those attacked defended themselves with whatever they had, but too bad they didn't have AK-47s.


01 Jun 10 - 01:20 PM (#2918334)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

Over time even this will be absorbed into the history of the region.

In the same way as Bloody Sunday and Sharpeville. Looking back, both those episodes significantly changed things. I suspect the same will be true of Bloody Monday.

I assume that there will be far greater support for a boycott of Israeli goods and so forth, analogous to that which contributed to the end of the apartheid regime in South Africa.


01 Jun 10 - 01:21 PM (#2918335)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

"Over time even this will be absorbed into the history of the region."

In the same way as Bloody Sunday and Sharpeville. Looking back, both those episodes significantly changed things. I suspect the same will be true of Bloody Monday.

I assume that there will be far greater support for a boycott of Israeli goods and so forth, analogous to that which contributed to the end of the apartheid regime in South Africa.


01 Jun 10 - 01:21 PM (#2918336)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

from this article.



"
Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman discussed the incident with counterparts from various countries, among them UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs Catherine Ashton and German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle.

In his discussion with Ban on Tuesday, Lieberman stated that while 500 people were killed in violent incidents around the world in May alone, it was Israel that was being condemned - and for defensive actions.

The two spoke following Tuesday morning's Security Council resolution calling for an impartial investigation of the matter, as well as Ban's request for a "thorough investigation" of the incident.

Lieberman stated that the hypocrisy and double standards taking root in the international community regarding Israel were to be regretted, stressing that Monday's raid was a reflection of the rights of IDF soldiers to defend themselves against attack.

The activists on board the ships, he said, had prepared clubs, metal crowbars and knives in advance of the confrontation - obviously intending to take a strike at Israel's sovereignty. He added that in light of these facts, Tuesday's Security Council resolution was unacceptable.

'Distinguish between terrorists and freedom fighters'

On Monday, Lieberman told Ashton and Westerwelle to adopt an objective approach and make the distinction between "freedom fighters" and terrorist supporters like those who had been aboard the ships.

Lieberman told the two foreign ministers that though Israel had tried to conduct dialogue with the organizers of the flotilla days before the ships neared Israeli territorial waters, such overtures were rejected - as was a request by Israel that the organizers ask Hamas to allow Red Cross visitation for captured IDF soldier Gilad Schalit.

"What happened ... was pre-planned violence, and Israeli does not intend to allow any attack on its sovereignty by groups of terror-supporters and anarchists," read a Foreign Ministry press release.

Livni: It's impossible to directly compare Israel, Hamas

Kadima and opposition leader Tzipi Livni, meanwhile, expressed full confidence Tuesday in the "principles" of Israel's soldiers, which "remain unchanging even when they join the IDF ... and even when they take over a ship and are attacked and beaten almost to death on board."

Livni criticized the world's response to the incident, saying it was impossible to make a direct comparison between Israel and Hamas. "I understand the personal pain that is expressed concerning the incidents that occurred here, but there is not one democracy in the world that can generate a comparison between murderers and those who defend themselves or kill without intending to."

"Israel and Hamas are not two sides of the same equation," she stressed.

Finance Minister Yuval Steinitz said on Tuesday that in seizing the provocative flotilla heading to Gaza, the IDF acted with determination and courage. He added that Israel exercised restraint - sometimes too much restraint.

"Israel is a small country and needs to protect itself and there was no other alternative than to defend ourselves," said Steinitz at a ministry conference in Jerusalem on Tuesday. "It is clear that the real mission of the flotilla was not to transfer humanitarian aid, which could have entered through the border crossings at the Ashdod port. Instead, the real mission was to break the naval siege to Gaza. The water siege is not perfect, but [it is] essential. It is necessary to understand that a breakage of the siege would mean an increase in terrorism and rockets against Israeli citizens. We don't have a choice, if our country needs to protect lives, we must defend ourselves."

Steinitz added that the State of Israel last year transferred 1 millions tons of food and equipment to Gaza.


01 Jun 10 - 01:34 PM (#2918348)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

And Israel bombed out their buildings, killed many civilians and disrupted life for Gazans.
Then allows in a little food and medicine.

Gaza 'city' has over 400,000 inhabitants, the largest city in their occupied territory; the strip has 1.5 million.


01 Jun 10 - 01:37 PM (#2918350)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Richard Bridge

The amount of aid that Isael permits into Gaza is I think about 20% of that recognised to be necessary even to rebuild teh buildings and infrasturucture destroyed by Israel.


01 Jun 10 - 01:45 PM (#2918354)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

And the number of missles smuggled into Gaza, instead of food and medicine?

And the amount of aid that Egypt allows in? Please compare what THEY allow as oppoed to the Israelis- then tell me why there are NO comments about the "evil Egyptians"


Lets go back to the LAST borders that the Arabs nations agreed to- the 1923 partion ( By the UK, as part of the peace treaty ending WW I and creating Trukey, Iraq, Iran, Lebenon...) of Mandate Palestine into Arab ( Transjordan, 77% of the Mandate) and Jewish ( the remaing 23%) Homelands. Care to have everyone go back to that?????


01 Jun 10 - 01:45 PM (#2918356)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Richard Bridge

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade

another discussion of blockade


01 Jun 10 - 01:46 PM (#2918357)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

Israel made a big mistake. But the pacifists weren't pacifists, they were political activists supporting one side (Hamas Palestine and the whole world of radical islamism) that won't make any agreement with the other (Israel). Bloody Sunday and Sharpeville are not good examples, because at last they gave way to a solution good for every people. There's no solution but the destruction of Israel in the aim of Hamas and its supporters. Israel made a big mistake, but it is difficult to deal with a counterpart that denies your right to exist.


01 Jun 10 - 01:47 PM (#2918358)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger

It's time for the World Community to disinvest in Israel. The Netanyahu Government have become the new Nazis. How ironic.

AIPAC should hang its head in shame.

Jews don't have to be Zionists. Many Jews worldwide reject the Theocracy that has become the State of Israel.

It's a long way away from what Ben Gurion had in mind.

The new Exodus must be out of Gaza.


01 Jun 10 - 01:57 PM (#2918366)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Richard Bridge

For an Israeli perspective on blockade, which does not seem to conform entirely to the contents of my previous links, see

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Law/Legal+Issues+and+Rulings/Gaza_flotilla_maritime_blockade_Gaza-Legal_background_31-May-2


01 Jun 10 - 02:06 PM (#2918371)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

The Mandate called for for the rights of non-jews to be respected.

Ben Gurion (1937) wrote that he was in favour of partition because he didn't envision a partial Jewish state as the end of the process. "What we want is not that the country be united and whole but that it be united and the whole country be Jewish (bold face mine).
He explained that a first-class Jewish army would permit zionists to settle in the rest of the country with or without the consent of the Arabs ("Letters....", 1971, Univ. Pittsburgh Press).

(From Wikipedia and Encyc. britannica)

The policy envisioned by Ben Gurion is being pursued. Destruction of Palestinian Arab homeland and domination of the Palestinian Arabs as a slave population is still the Israeli objective.


01 Jun 10 - 02:19 PM (#2918382)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

Q,

"The Mandate called for for the rights of non-jews to be respected."

The mandate did NOT allow for the creation of Jordan ( Transjordan) as the ARAB Homeland, with NO Jews being allowed to settle in that 77% of the Mandate area.

The remainder of the Mandate ( 23%, the Jewish Homeland) had NO restrictions on who settled there.

I guess you mean that ONLY the rights of Non-Jews were to be respected.


01 Jun 10 - 02:22 PM (#2918385)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

"Destruction of Palestinian Arab homeland and domination of the Palestinian Arabs as a slave population is still the Israeli objective. "


False statement.

Israel has NEVER threatened the existance of Jordan.

Israel has never used Palestinian Arabs as slves- that has been reserved for thier Arab brothers in Saudia Arabia, Kuwait, and other Arab nations, where they could live and work but never become citizens.


01 Jun 10 - 02:24 PM (#2918387)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

BTW, transjordan was given to the Arabs in 1923- a few years BEFORE 1937....


01 Jun 10 - 02:40 PM (#2918396)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

In the formation of Israel, 80% of the Arabs were ethnically cleansed from the land by Israeli zionists and not allowed to return.

The refugee camps became the homes of the Palestinian Arabs and have been for many years.

Stateless people forced to live on charity, without hope, are slaves.


01 Jun 10 - 02:49 PM (#2918400)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bill D

"""I have watched YEARS of copy & paste 'proof' of who was to blame for both general & specific conflicts in that area. It is as clear as who is to blame in Ireland, the Baltics, Indo-China, or street gangs in Los Angeles."""

...and here we go again!


01 Jun 10 - 02:55 PM (#2918407)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

Q,

'In the formation of Israel, 80% of the Arabs were ethnically cleansed from the land by Israeli zionists and not allowed to return.'

1. they were invited to stay by the Israeli governement, and choose t leave based on promises by the Arab League that they could have it all after the Jews were driven out.

2. Nearly 100% of the Jews in Arab nations were "ethnically cleansed" , and resettled ONLY by Israel. 820,000 Jews vs the 640,000 Palestinian Arabs that fled.





"The refugee camps became the homes of the Palestinian Arabs and have been for many years."

From 1948 to 1967, the entire West Bank and Jeruselam were under Arab ( Jordanian) control. Please tell me who put the Palestinians into camps instead of letting them settle?





"Stateless people forced to live on charity, without hope, are slaves. "

So why didn't the other Arab nations allow them to settle, as the Israelis allowed Jewish refugees from the world over to do? They are the ones keeping the Palestinians as slaves.


01 Jun 10 - 02:56 PM (#2918410)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

"80% of the Arabs were ethnically cleansed "

And this figure is false.


01 Jun 10 - 03:02 PM (#2918417)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

""The refugee camps became the homes of the Palestinian Arabs and have been for many years."

From 1948 to 1967, the entire West Bank and Jeruselam were under Arab ( Jordanian) control. Please tell me who put the Palestinians into camps instead of letting them settle?

"



BTW, where did all the Jews that were in the areas controlled by Arabs go to between 1948 and 1967???

Care to enlighten me as you claim the Israelis should lie down and let the Palestinians cut their throats?


01 Jun 10 - 03:07 PM (#2918424)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

On 24th May in the Humanitarian Voyage thread, which received little attention, I posted a link to a Q & A article in the Gulf News which appears to be fairly prophetic

"Will Israel allow the vessels to enter?

Israel controls Gaza's territorial waters, and has warned campaigners not to attempt to break the blockade, saying it will use "any means necessary" to stop the flotilla.

Israel has, in the past, stopped the flotilla by ramming it with gunboats, towing it to its own ports as well as taking in passengers from international waters and detaining them.

The Israeli navy has reportedly been conducting practice exercises in order to block the Freedom Flotilla.
Organisers have said they are undeterred and are determined to continue.
The presence of high profile personalities on the ships gives the campaigners leverage over Israel, but the state has not hesitated to imprison prominent people in the past, including former congresswoman and US presidential candidate Cynthia McKinney.

Some of the vessels will be flying the Turkish flag. If such a vessel is attacked in international waters, a major diplomatic incident could follow"

thread.cfm?threadid=129679#2913025

In this thread I also referred to Gisha

"an Israeli not-for-profit organization, founded in 2005, whose goal is to protect the freedom of movement of Palestinians, especially Gaza residents. Gisha promotes rights guaranteed by international and Israeli law.

Gisha is operated by a professional staff and guided by a board that includes legal academics and practitioners, women and men, Arabs and Jews, who have helped shape Israeli human rights law through their advocacy and writings.

Gisha is registered in Israel as an independent, non-partisan, not-for-profit organization. Gisha is generously supported by donations from Israel and abroad."

Please remember that not all Jewish people support the Zionist movement or the settlements which are considered a "violation of international law" and approximately 100 of which do not even meet the legal criteria of Israeli law but represent a fundamentalist imperitive
Recognition of the second class status of the Palestinians in Isreal or the humanitarian crisis in Gaza is not anti-semitism!


01 Jun 10 - 03:11 PM (#2918425)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Royston

You're right, Bill D

Simple fact is that something must be done to stop Israel from perpetuating this cycle of death. They *are* the new Nazis. They have squeezed the Palestinians into a ghetto where they suffer death by a thousand cuts - something that creates new generations of human beings who are dehumanised and have nothing to lose when they blow their own bodies up in order to hit back at their persecutors in some (futile) way.

For gawd's sake, if we (Britain) had behaved towards the USA-funded Irish terrorists as Israel deals with Hamas, where would that have go us all?

Like South African apartheid, we need boycotts and sanctions. We need to make Israel feel what most right thinking people feel - that it is a callous, bloodthirsy pariah state, evert bit as vile and bankrupt as North Korea or Iran or the Taleban. We need to take away its military - and certainly its nuclear - capabilities and send in an UN force to roll back its borders to UN-agreed positions and maintain a peace for as long as it takes for the groundswell of emotional support for Hamas to disappear.

And of course Hamas must be disarmed and policed. But that is easy. Be tough on Israeli human rights abuses is to be tough on the causes of Hamas. Enforce some basic fairness and Hamas will wither away.


01 Jun 10 - 03:39 PM (#2918448)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke

The United States has blocked demands for an international inquiry into al Qaeda's attack on the World Trade Center that left almost three thousand people dead.

A compromise statement instead calls for an impartial investigation which Washington indicated could be carried out by al Qaeda.


Self regulation, that's the way to do it.



















Oops, I misread the report.










The United States has blocked demands at the UN security council for an international inquiry into Israel's assault on the Turkish ship carrying aid to Gaza that left nine pro-Palestinian activists dead.

A compromise statement instead calls for an impartial investigation which Washington indicated could be carried out by Israel.


01 Jun 10 - 03:42 PM (#2918451)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke

BTW Royston, much as I dislike Hamas and Islamic fundamentalism (and much as most Palestinians dislike fundamentalism too), don't forget that the Israeli blockade was a response to the DEMOCRATIC election of Hamas, in a process that was agreed by international observers to be free and fair.

The West can't preach democracy, but only accept the result if it's the "right" one.


01 Jun 10 - 03:50 PM (#2918457)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Richard Bridge

I should point out that I understand the laws of blockade require blockaded ships from non-belligerents to be escorted to a neutral port


01 Jun 10 - 04:27 PM (#2918484)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Maritime Law

Israelis opened fire before boarding the flotilla (the live feed video evidence supports this testimony)


01 Jun 10 - 04:34 PM (#2918492)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

The statement I hear is that the Israelis spent 6 hours telling the ships to stop and be escorted into port for inspection BEFORE they put people aboard them.

"I should point out that I understand the laws of blockade require blockaded ships from non-belligerents to be escorted to a neutral port "

Had the ships left the blockaded area and returned to a neutral port, they would not have been boarded. Si Israel is in accord with the laws of blockade.


I note the UN condemned the actionsof Israel immediately ( within hours) yet is NOW calling for a complete report and investigation.

Didn't the Red Queen act that way, demanding the verdict and execution first and THEN the trial????


01 Jun 10 - 04:36 PM (#2918494)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

It doesn't matter what the Israelis told people to do. Under international law, they had no right to tell anyone to do anything at all in international waters.


01 Jun 10 - 04:43 PM (#2918496)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

"Had the ships left the blockaded area and returned to a neutral port, they would not have been boarded. Si Israel is in accord with the laws of blockade."

Whether you believe the sea blokade of Gaza is legitimate or not, and this is very debatable, the fact remains that it applied to the waters within 20 miles of Gaza and NOT to international waters which is where the flotilla came under attack.


01 Jun 10 - 04:57 PM (#2918503)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

It should also be understood that under international maritime law, the Turkish ship is legally considered to be Turkish territory. Turkey is a member of NATO. Israel is not. Turkey could, if it wanted to, consider the attack on its territory in international waters an act of war, subject to Article V of NATO, which obligates the other NATO members to come to its assistance when attacked by a non-NATO country.


01 Jun 10 - 05:11 PM (#2918517)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll

Israel's Sharpville - no less.
And they crouch behind the dead of Auschwitz to excuse such actions.
Jim Carroll


01 Jun 10 - 05:22 PM (#2918523)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Meanwhile, the Rachel Corrie is now on its way to Gaza, and a new humanitarian aid flotilla is being gotten ready to make another attempt to break the blockade.


01 Jun 10 - 05:24 PM (#2918527)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"Didn't the Red Queen act that way, demanding the verdict and execution first and THEN the trial????"

Execution?

How many Israelis were executed?

None?

How many civilians were executed by the Israelis?

19?


That number is higher than the number of Israelis who died in the alleged "war" of january 2009.


Bruce, I think your choice of words and indeed analogy could have been better.


01 Jun 10 - 05:30 PM (#2918534)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"Meanwhile, the Rachel Corrie is now on its way to Gaza, and a new humanitarian aid flotilla is being gotten ready to make another attempt to break the blockade."

And I pray that the Turkish Government and all other Governments, including the Israeli government, stay the hell out of it.

Israel can withstand any military assault - in fact any such offensive makes them stronger.

However they are powerless in the face of a transparent humanitarian campaign, and can have no answer to civil disobedience.

The key for Gaza is No-Violent Non-Cooperation.

Rachel Corrie may yet do some bulldozing of her own and help bring down the wall from beyond the grave.


01 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM (#2918535)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

If a blockade were imposed on Israel that would have the same legal status as the blockade by Israel on the Gaza strip.


01 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM (#2918536)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

Lox

The number is presently reported as 10 dead.

Too many, as all agree- but the determination of who attacked who is still to be determined. There was resistance only on one ship- and the video shows the passengers attacking the commandos as they came aboard.


01 Jun 10 - 05:35 PM (#2918541)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

The live feed shows people being attacked and it shows wounded members of the flotilla prior to any of the Israelis landing. The Israeli government video only shows what happened after they landed. The live feed shows what happened before they landed. This is indisputable proof that the Israelis opened fire before landing.


01 Jun 10 - 05:37 PM (#2918543)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"The number is presently reported as 10 dead."

Depends on the report.

Doctors working on the scene have suggested as many as 15 died.

Early reports from ISRAELI media sources suggested 19.


"There was resistance only on one ship- and the video shows the passengers attacking the commandos as they came aboard."


The cameras can't see the bullets.

There is testimony that there were bullets flying before the troops landed.

Bear in mind that the Israelis imposed a blackout when they attacked, up until which pointthe flotilla had been entirely transparent in every respect.

The only secrecy has been that imposed by the Israeli military.

The Israelis can't imprison everyone who was on the ship.

So far they control all the information.

This will not last.


01 Jun 10 - 05:39 PM (#2918545)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Having said that, however, under international maritime law, the people on the flotilla ships had an absolute right to defend themselves against the Israeli invasion of their ships and their attempt to take them over. The act of boarding the ships without permission was in itself an act of aggression that is illegal under international maritime law.


01 Jun 10 - 05:42 PM (#2918549)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

When I reflect on the Turkey, (Turks, Kurds and Armenians), I cannot put events of 1915 the G-word out of my mind.


01 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM (#2918551)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

Gee, who attacked whom? Did the blockade runners board the Israeli ships, or did the Israelis board the blockade runners' ships? There's your answer.

You're wrong, Spaw, there is a forseeable end to this, which Israel has been steadily working toward for 60 years. Chomp off larger and larger chunks of the West Bank until there's nowhere for the Palestinians to live and no way for them to make a living. They all go somewhere else. Then start doing the same for Gaza (if anybody is still alive there after the starvation blockade). Problem solved.


01 Jun 10 - 05:50 PM (#2918553)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

Have to agree, Ed T, the Turks should have kept the hell out of it.


01 Jun 10 - 05:52 PM (#2918556)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

As this certainly was not the first naval blockade of a nation, a good question is does international law permitted capturing a vessel attempting to breach a naval blockade, even in international waters? The answer may be surprising.


01 Jun 10 - 06:00 PM (#2918566)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

Was/is the blockade legal?


01 Jun 10 - 06:05 PM (#2918575)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I would say that nobody from the US or the UK is in any position to say that international law and international agreements like NATO shouldn't apply to countries that have genocides in their previous history, considering the histories of those two countries.


01 Jun 10 - 06:08 PM (#2918577)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

I'd say that's irrelevant. No nation has clean hands; that doesn't make what Israel is doing okay. The whole "you're in no position to talk" thing just gives Israel carte blanche to undertake any atrocities it cares to. But then again the support of the US does much the same thing. As witness the last 50 years.


01 Jun 10 - 06:09 PM (#2918579)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

"nobody from the US or the UK is in any position to say that international law and international agreements like NATO shouldn't apply to countries that have genocides in their previous history, considering the histories of those two countries".

And, to the contrary, many NATO and western nations have had direct experience in invading and blockading other countries, and killing those opposing such adventures.


01 Jun 10 - 06:09 PM (#2918580)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

The blockade is illegal under the Geneva conventions because it is a form of collective punishment.

There is also the problem of the legal status of Gaza. If it is under occupation by the government of Israel, it is an illegal occupation. If it is a part of Israel, it is illegal because it is illegal to take territory by force. If it is not under occupation, then Israel has no right to control its borders.


01 Jun 10 - 06:12 PM (#2918583)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

So you guys are saying that maritime law only applies to those whom the people with the most guns say it does. Interesting. You may be right. Of course, that is the "might makes right" ideology, and in that respect is no different from any other regime that practices it, including the ones we don't like.


01 Jun 10 - 06:14 PM (#2918586)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

Nobody has yet answered my question: is there a blockade, or isn't there? If there is, it's nonsense to say Israel will pass through anything anybody wishes to send into Gaza. Well, actually it's not so much nonsense as a lie.


01 Jun 10 - 06:18 PM (#2918589)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

You asked if it was legal. I answered that one.


01 Jun 10 - 06:30 PM (#2918596)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

In most cases the big guns make the international rules, and bend them to suite their interests. History is full of blockades, belligerent, Pacific and otherwise. Some have caused war, some reduced the liklihood of war, and many, like this one, have been punitive actions by a larger (more powerful) nation against a smaller, less powerful one...designed to make it give in to the larger nations interests.


01 Jun 10 - 06:34 PM (#2918598)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I can't argue with that, Ed, in practice. But it's still might makes right, which makes those who practice it no better than Nazis.


01 Jun 10 - 06:34 PM (#2918599)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

As to whether it is legal, I don't feel it has in fact been answered. It was clearly was a naval blockde, regardless of what you call it.   But, remember the USA called their naval blockade of Cuba a quarantine, to avoid United Nations criticism.


01 Jun 10 - 06:38 PM (#2918604)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

Palestine isn't a nation. It's a territory completely subjugated by Israel. It is, in effect, a ghetto where all the Undesirables are contained as if in quarantine (great word, Ed). Israel pretends it's not part of Israel because if it were they'd have to extend the rights of citizens to its inhabitants. But it's not a state itself, and not part of any other state, and completely under the rule of Israel. What other country could it be?


01 Jun 10 - 06:39 PM (#2918605)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I believe it's been answered by the United Nations, Ed.


01 Jun 10 - 06:41 PM (#2918607)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

The point is that no matter what status one applies to it, the blockade is illegal under the Geneva Conventions and other international law, as is Israel's control of Gaza.


01 Jun 10 - 06:42 PM (#2918609)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I should rephrase that:

The point is that no matter what status one applies to Gaza, the blockade is illegal under the Geneva Conventions and other international law, as is Israel's control of Gaza.


01 Jun 10 - 06:42 PM (#2918610)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

Israel claims that Turkish-based IHH, responsible for the flotilla funds and finances Hamas initiatives(I believe that is listed in some countries as a terriorist group) around the world.

They cite sources, including this report:

http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publications/WP2006/DIIS%20WP%202006-7.web.pdf


01 Jun 10 - 06:44 PM (#2918611)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

"I believe it's been answered by the United Nations, Ed."

Specifics


01 Jun 10 - 06:44 PM (#2918612)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

The existance of a blockade is a simple fact

however....

"Israel has never published a list of banned items, saying it approves requests on a case-by-case basis.

Items allowed have changed over time, which has left humanitarian organisations and commercial importers constantly attempting to guess what will be approved.
The court case has been brought by the Israeli human rights group, Gisha.
The group has been trying, for more than a year, using freedom of information legislation, to squeeze information from the state about what exactly is allowed for import to Gaza, and why.

In January, Gisha, took the Israeli authorities to court, to try to force them to provide the information.
Gisha's director, Sari Bashi, says she is no security expert, "but preventing children from receiving toys, preventing manufacturers from getting raw materials - I don't see how that's responsive to Israeli security needs."

And she says that some of the prohibitions appear to be absurdly arbitrary: "I certainly don't understand why cinnamon is permitted, but coriander is forbidden. Is there something more dangerous about coriander?
Is coriander more critical to Gaza's economy than cinnamon? This is a policy that appears to make no sense."
She argues that if there is a logic behind such decisions, the military should reveal what it is


GOODS ALLOWED INTO GAZA - beginning of May
Canned meat and tuna, but not canned fruit
Mineral water, but not fruit juice
Sesame paste (tahini) but not jam
Tea and coffee but not chocolate

The lack of clarity causes immense frustration not just among Gazans, but among aid groups, diplomats, and the United Nations - which has described Israel's blockade as "collective punishment"

The problem, they say, is not just the shortages themselves, but the unpredictability and changing nature of what is permitted for import.
Israeli officials have said, in the past, that they are concerned that building materials in particular could be misappropriated by Hamas for military ends.

But some Israeli commentators - even those who advocate a tough stance against Hamas - say that the strategy behind the much wider blockade is ill-defined, and harmful to Israel's international standing.

The BBC has received information from reliable sources that there are currently 81 items that are approved for import - from kidney beans to tinned meat - and as of March, shoes.

Among the large range of goods currently forbidden are jam, chocolate, wood for furniture, fruit juice, textiles, and plastic toys.

A 13-page submission by the Israeli authorities to the Tel Aviv District Court raises more question s than it answers.

It does set the context for the blockade: in what Israel considers to be its existential conflict with Hamas.
But it will not satisfy those calling for Israel to be more open about one of its most contentious policies."

From a BBC report May 3rd


01 Jun 10 - 06:44 PM (#2918613)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

No, that wasn't to you Carol C. I want to know if somebody who supports Israel in this, really thinks they would pass everything through they got when they're not doing so now, and they claim there's a blockade on.


01 Jun 10 - 06:48 PM (#2918614)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

So then Israel should have no problem with the Rachel Corrie, then, since it is not IHH.


01 Jun 10 - 06:49 PM (#2918618)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

My last was for Ed.


01 Jun 10 - 06:51 PM (#2918619)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

The list may be puzzling to us....but I am also puzzled by many government lists, and especially when it comes to security and terror-fear, even when I take an airplane.

I don't see why cinnamon or coriander is on a list is a humanitarian issue? Governments like to make lists, governments are bureaucratic and often don't make sense...even ours.

If one knows that there is a blockade, and one is entering an area of conflict...it seems wise, yes, even common sense, to pay heed and not do anything that would spook those with guns.


01 Jun 10 - 06:52 PM (#2918620)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Resolution 242, Ed.


01 Jun 10 - 06:54 PM (#2918623)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

The flotilla, not Rachel Corrie.


01 Jun 10 - 06:56 PM (#2918624)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

The Rachel Corrie is a part of the flotilla. It is on its way to Gaza now. It is from Ireland and is not a part of IHH.


01 Jun 10 - 07:00 PM (#2918629)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

Resolution 242, 1967. I suspect the question related to the current situation and blockade....


01 Jun 10 - 07:04 PM (#2918633)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

242 never stopped applying to Gaza as well as the West Bank, Ed. It still applies today.


01 Jun 10 - 07:05 PM (#2918634)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I know your post is going to be deleted, GUEST, but you should never say "the Jews" in the way you just did. There are many, many Jews who are working very hard and making enormous sacrifices to help correct this situation, and they deserve our gratitude and respect.


01 Jun 10 - 07:08 PM (#2918635)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

The Irish-flagged MV Rachel Corrie cargo ship was referred to in the earlier thread 'Humanitarian Voyage'); her passage to join the Freedom Flotilla was most likely delayed because of sabotage by Israelis, but she is now heading for Gaza on her own

The humanitarian aid attempt has the full support of the Irish government.

The Irish prime minister, Brian Cowen, has warned Israel that it will face "the most serious consequences" in the event that any harm comes to Irish citizens on board the humanitarian relief vessel.

Mr Cowen said Ireland's longstanding position was that the Israeli blockade of Gaza was "immoral and counterproductive" and should be ended.

"Israel must listen and respond to the clear concerns of the international community on this issue. To do otherwise will only serve to reinforce the position of the extremists on both sides and jeopardise the hope of achieving some urgently needed political progress in the region, which the current proximity talks represent," he said.


01 Jun 10 - 07:08 PM (#2918636)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Joe Offer

Yeah, there's no way I'm going to allow an anonymous guest to post racist or anti-Semitic crap. And on this thread, no guest posts are allowed at all.
-Joe-


01 Jun 10 - 07:13 PM (#2918639)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

"The Gaza Strip has been under a heightened Israeli blockade since the militant group Hamas seized control in June 2007.In September 2007, the Israeli government declared the Strip a "hostile entity" in response to continued rocket attacks on southern Israel. During the six month truce between Israel and Hamas, which began in June 2008, and in early 2010, the volume and range of goods increased with trucks of shoes and clothes entering Gaza." and said it would start cutting fuel imports


01 Jun 10 - 07:16 PM (#2918642)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

I'd say that GUEST Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:01 PM is pretty certainly a phony trying to bolster the lie that critics of Israel are anti-semites. And the sooner the post gets deleted the better.

Good to see that this has forced the Egyptians to stop collaborationg in the Gaza blockade, and to open the crossing into Gaza that they control.


01 Jun 10 - 07:17 PM (#2918644)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

Ed - please read about the recent 'imports of shoes and clothes' on the previous thread
Clothes and shoes have been on the banned list for 3 years; many of those now allowed in have been held in 'storage' by the Israelis for the whole three years and it is estimated as much as 50% has actually deteriorated beyond use.


01 Jun 10 - 07:24 PM (#2918647)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

Irish aid boat holds course towards Gaza despite Israel warning:

The final boat in the Gaza aid flotilla was sailing at full speed towards the territory's coast tonight despite warnings that it would be intercepted by Israeli forces.

The MV Rachel Corrie, a 40-year-old cargo ship bought by the Irish arm of the Free Gaza Movement, was delayed and avoided capture during Monday night's assault. Tonight it was still in international waters about two days from Gaza, carrying a consignment of aid and 19 activists and crew, among them five Irish nationals, the organisation said.

The Irish taoiseach, Brian Cowen, warned Israel tonight that he expected no violence against those on the Rachel Corrie.

"If any harm comes to any of our citizens it will have the most serious consequences," he said, calling on Israel to guarantee the vessel safe passage through the military blockade of Gaza.

The ship, named after the 23-year-old American killed in Gaza in 2003 while trying to prevent an Israeli bulldozer demolishing a Palestinian home, had halted in the Mediterranean following the assault while those on board – among them the Nobel peace laureate Máiread Maguire and Denis Halliday, a retired senior UN diplomat – discussed whether they should continue.


01 Jun 10 - 07:25 PM (#2918648)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"50% has actually deteriorated beyond use."

Which implies that some of the rest may have deteriorated, but not yet beyond use.


01 Jun 10 - 07:25 PM (#2918649)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

242 required that Israel withdraw from any territory that it took in 1967 and to not interfere with the politics or borders of any other state. At the time, Gaza would have been included in that as a part of Egypt.


01 Jun 10 - 07:28 PM (#2918652)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I don't trust the Egyptian government. I think they've only opened the crossing in order to help the Israeli government try to discredit the Rachel Corrie. I think that if Israel takes the Rachel Corrie, Egypt will close Rafah again very soon afterward.


01 Jun 10 - 07:30 PM (#2918654)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

"242 never stopped applying to Gaza as well as the West Bank, Ed. It still applies today"

Sorry, CarolC...that may make sense to you, but not to me. It is just much more complex than that..involves more than Israel..and, much water, from both sides, has gone under the bridge since 1967.

I certainly do not condone or praise Israel for holding back supplies that are being held back. In fact, I feel they should end the blockade. However, I recognize that this is a very complex topic (from many sides), and all involved have a legitimate reason to fear the other side and their future plight and security.

That being said, let's not fool ourselves by believing that many other nations, some stellar UN members, have not done bad things...even violated or skirted human rights and UN laws,starved and killed others, led blockades and invaded other nations.

Would I take on a nation blockading another because it feels threatened by it (right or wrong)? No. Should I be surprised if these actions (good or less so) presented threats to my safety? No
Should we condemn actions before we know the facts? A good question.


01 Jun 10 - 07:38 PM (#2918657)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""The activists on board the ships, he said, had prepared clubs, metal crowbars and knives in advance of the confrontation - obviously intending to take a strike at Israel's sovereignty. He added that in light of these facts, Tuesday's Security Council resolution was unacceptable.""

So, Israel now claims sovereignty over international waters and Turkish shipping?

That dog ain't gonna hunt, no matter how they spin it, and iron bars against assault rifles and grenades isn't resistance, it's suicide.

Boarding a foreign owned ship in international waters is PIRACY, and if the crew resist, they are doing their job.

Israel should cease and desist from illegal actions, and concentrate on her own territory.

A little compromise here would be beneficial to all concerned.

You cannot win hearts and minds by slaying ten for one. Even Hitler with vastly greater resources couldn't manage that.

Don T.


01 Jun 10 - 07:38 PM (#2918658)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

According to the Palestinian Chamber of Commerce in Gaza last September, there were currently over 1,700 containers of imported goods ordered by Gaza merchants being 'stored' in Israel and the West Bank until they are allowed into Gaza.
A breakdown of the items listed by the Chamber of Commerce included clothing, shoes, electronics and toys.

Over half of the containers have been held in storage since 2007. The Chamber of Commerce reports direct losses of an estimated 10 million dollars, including storage and handling costs, and indirect losses in losing contracts and ties with outside suppliers.

On Aug 23 2009, the new school year began for nearly 450,000 school children in Gaza. but notebooks and other items needed for school have not been allowed into Gaza.
Nor has the construction material needed to repair the many schools damaged by Israeli shelling and bombing during Israel's three-week war on Gaza.


01 Jun 10 - 07:39 PM (#2918659)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

...a very complex topic... Yes indeed - after all, if they let tinned fruit into Gaza, people might throw them at Israeli tanks...


01 Jun 10 - 07:41 PM (#2918660)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: michaelr

I keep reading stuff like "Hamas seized control" as if they had taken power in a miltary coup. Fact is, whatever you may think of Hamas, they were democratically elected by the people of Gaza.


01 Jun 10 - 07:41 PM (#2918661)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Well, Ed, while I would never try to suggest that no other countries have ever done bad things, the problem for me is that I am being made to pay for what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. So that makes me complicit, and gives me the responsibility to do whatever I can to try to correct the situation.

Nevertheless, Israel is in material breach of quite a few international laws, treaties, and UN resolutions, so it has no legal leg to stand on, for any reason, ever.

Now, if Israel should decide to annex Gaza and the West Bank, and extend citizenship and equal rights to all who live there, I would not see any need to keep working on behalf of Palestinian rights. Equally, if Israel would decide to withdraw to its pre-67 borders and leave Gaza and the West Bank alone, I would similarly not see any need to continue my work on behalf of Palestinian rights.

But as things are now, I have no other choice. And I really don't see it as being complicated at all. It's all quite simple, actually.

Anyway, Israel, in the form in which it now exists, will cease to exist sooner rather than later. It is committing suicide even as we speak.


01 Jun 10 - 07:48 PM (#2918666)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

CarolC
Nice to see that you do not see the Israel Palistian issue and history as complex. I suspect you stand with few, not with many on that one.


01 Jun 10 - 07:54 PM (#2918670)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

"I keep reading stuff like "Hamas seized control" as if they had taken power in a miltary coup. Fact is, whatever you may think of Hamas, they were democratically elected by the people of Gaza".

I suspect you fail to include alot of hammas killing (including innocent children...also condemmed by the UN) in the mix of the democratically elected government...(not to mention fatah)


01 Jun 10 - 07:56 PM (#2918674)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Nice to see that you do not see the Israel Palistian issue and history as comples. I suspect you stand with few, not with many on that one.

I think you're quite wrong about that, Ed.


01 Jun 10 - 08:01 PM (#2918677)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Joe Offer

It IS complex. There are no "good guys" or "bad guys" in this problem, which has been going on for well over sixty years. Both sides are right, and both sides are wrong - and both sides have committed atrocities in the name of what they see as right.

-Joe-


01 Jun 10 - 08:02 PM (#2918678)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

"I think you're quite wrong about that, Ed."
We agree to disagree on that one.


01 Jun 10 - 08:03 PM (#2918680)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Ed, It is important to be able to distinguish complexity from smokescreen.

I also have an interest in ensuring that the taxes I pay are not used by my government to fund the export of weapons that will then be used against Palestinian families.

That is very clear and simple.

There is currently no fear of my taxes being invested in weapons being used against Israelis.

On the other hand, It is also very clear to me that voluntary contributions made to help feed hungry palestinians and treat sick palestinians and build homes for homeless palestinians and schools and books for palestinian children, merit no cause for sanctions of any sort.

In fact I admire the bravery of such efforts as in this case they combine with the Israeli blockade to create a form of civil disobedience that has even greater moral standing than those practiced by Ghandi and Martin Luter King, as those examples of civil disobedience did not incorporate humanitarian aid.

This campaign is unique and its critics on a losing path.

The only thing that can damage this campaign now would be the interference of a military force such as Turkey.

Thankfully the Rachel Corrie is taking the initiative.


01 Jun 10 - 08:09 PM (#2918686)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: michaelr

Two separate issues, Ed. The majority of Palestinians in the Gaza strip voted for Hamas because they did not feel adequately represented by Fatah.


01 Jun 10 - 08:10 PM (#2918687)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

The solution is not complex, Joe. We are only made to think it's complex so Israel will be able to continue its ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians until they are all gone.


01 Jun 10 - 08:11 PM (#2918689)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Charley Noble

World opinion, for what it's worth, seems to be more critical of the Israelis than the Palestinians and their supporters.

The stupidity of the Israeli leadership at this point amazes me. What world do they live in?

Charley Noble


01 Jun 10 - 08:12 PM (#2918692)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Actually, the majority of Gazans didn't vote for Hamas. A plurality of them did. There were two different Fatah candidates running and the two of them together got more votes than Hamas, but Hamas won because they got the plurality. They are the democratically elected government of all of Palestine.


01 Jun 10 - 08:14 PM (#2918693)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: michaelr

Ah, thank you Carol for putting the orthopedic shoes on me.


01 Jun 10 - 08:26 PM (#2918699)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

"World opinion, for what it's worth, seems to be more critical of the Israelis than the Palestinians and their supporters".

I have found this to fluctuate...outside the clearly anti semetic folks (though I am certain they would be surprised that some find them so) and governments.


01 Jun 10 - 08:29 PM (#2918705)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"I have found this to fluctuate..."

I have - amongst Israelis!


Not all critics of the Israeli government are gentiles and anti-semites.


01 Jun 10 - 08:30 PM (#2918707)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

The Canadian press has listed the names of three Canadians aboard the relief vessel. There may have been more, news of those aboard is slow in coming.
No report so far of injuries to Canadians.


01 Jun 10 - 08:33 PM (#2918708)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Ed, public sentiment has been steadily shifting in favor of solidarity with the Palestinians for the last eight years or more. And it increases with every act of violence that Israel commits. This last one will prove to be the straw that broke the camel's back.


01 Jun 10 - 08:33 PM (#2918709)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

"During its searches of the Mavi Marmara on Tuesday, the military also discovered a cache of bulletproof vests, night-vision goggles as well as gas masks. On Monday morning, nine international activists were killed during the Navy's takeover of the Mavi Marmara which was trying to break the Israel-imposed sea blockade on the Gaza Strip"


01 Jun 10 - 08:36 PM (#2918712)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

All of that stuff was planted by the Israelis, beardedbruce. The entire ship, its cargo, and all of the passengers were thoroughly inspected prior to its departure.


01 Jun 10 - 08:38 PM (#2918714)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

Funny how world public opinion at any point is not always much of a factor on how events evolve...or are viewed in the future.

Lets take the USA enrry into Iraq...most folks forget the world negativity at the time.

Look at the IRA killings in Ireland.

How about Russia's many historic invasions etc.

The Germans and Japanese, once dispised, are now viewed as friends around the world.

And there is China....and still there is China.

"History (and world public opinion) has shown that whoever wins the battle(s) or war(s) will be branded "truth". This is the course of human events, has and always will be this way. It doesn't matter who was right and who's cause was just; all that matters is whoever wins the battle is now "right" and the loser was a "terrorist" and enemy."


01 Jun 10 - 08:40 PM (#2918718)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

By the way, Israel knows it hasn't got a legal leg to stand on. It's releasing all of the people it kidnapped, including those who so bravely defended the ship from the Israeli terrorists, and whom the government of Israel said they were going to prosecute.


01 Jun 10 - 08:46 PM (#2918722)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

"bravely defended the ship from the Israeli terrorists"

CarolC, you seem to clearly see things from one side. I admit, there is comfort in that. I wish I could enjoy such comfort.


01 Jun 10 - 08:48 PM (#2918724)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

It's true, Ed. I see things entirely from the side of human rights and the rule of law. And you're right. There is great comfort in that.


01 Jun 10 - 08:54 PM (#2918728)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

CarolC. I can say with no hesitation that I do admire your confidence that from your vantage point, that you know all the facts...and can conclude all conclusions on this and related matters.
And as someone once said:
"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."


"Keep your stick on the ice"


01 Jun 10 - 08:57 PM (#2918732)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"During its searches of the Mavi Marmara on Tuesday, the military also discovered a cache of bulletproof vests, night-vision goggles as well as gas masks."

The whole flotilla has been deliberately transparent and completely open from the start, having invited international observers from numerous international government and media organizations.

The only secrecy in the whole story began when The Israeli Military imposed an information blackout.

These facts do not run consistent with the idea that the Israeli military has somehow exposed some kind of hidden agenda, but rather suggests that they have tried to hide something.

This makes the plausibility of the above quoted claim very doubtful.


01 Jun 10 - 09:03 PM (#2918737)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Ed, there really is no room for quibbling on what constitutes human rights or even the rule of law. And I don't need to know everything myself. There are international bodies that are responsible for knowing those things. All I have to do is look it up.


01 Jun 10 - 09:08 PM (#2918738)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

And, then there is another perspective;
http://www.calgaryherald.com/opinion/Flotilla+fiasco+aboard+Mavi+Marmara/3096275/story.html


01 Jun 10 - 09:14 PM (#2918741)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

And yet another perspective:
http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/06/01/gaza-clash-turkish-charitys-terror-links/


01 Jun 10 - 09:22 PM (#2918744)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

The Calgary Herald is a part of Canwest Global, owned by Leonard Asper and his father Izzy; they support Jewish Zionist goals in the Middle East.


01 Jun 10 - 09:22 PM (#2918745)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

The first one ignores the fact that the Israelis opened fire before they boarded the ship, which makes the response from the people on the ship an act of self-defense. The second ignores the fact that not all of the boats were IHH, but all of them were attacked and kidnapped. People are entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.


01 Jun 10 - 09:28 PM (#2918748)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

The US Government used to class Nelson Mandela as a terrorist.

The fact that Fox news has supported this claim to be true of the activists on board the ship should be no surprise.



The calgary herald claims to have a video of activists with a gun.

I've seen a lot of videos of the attack now and none of them included a passenger with a gun.

When I see this alleged video I will believe it.


The ones I have seen aupport eyewitness testimony claiming that live fire was used by the IDF before they landed on the ship.


01 Jun 10 - 09:32 PM (#2918749)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

The Canadian Association of Journalists and the Quebec Federation of Professional Journalists have denounced actions of Canwest Global (Calgary Herald owner) as "a disturbing pattern of censorship and repression of dissenting views" and called for a parliamentary inquiry.
The Herald reflects Israeli Zionist and extreme right wing views. Nothing it prints on the Middle East situation can be accepted as valid.


01 Jun 10 - 09:59 PM (#2918763)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

So if you separate out (and ignore) all those with pre-set (vested) opinions (such as countries, journalists, media outlets and individuals who have strong and committed views one way or the other on Israel, Palestine and palistinian political causes, and add in vested interests like arabs, Iranians, muslims, jews) who do you have left to listen to?


01 Jun 10 - 10:10 PM (#2918772)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

Me!


01 Jun 10 - 10:23 PM (#2918776)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bill D

"It IS complex. There are no "good guys" or "bad guys" in this problem, ..,"

They don't listen when I say similar things, Joe....why would they listen when you say it?

You now have BB and Carol C. at it again, this time with help. They will post alternate 'proof' until you close the thread.

Pogo Possum was right....


01 Jun 10 - 10:52 PM (#2918789)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Nice personal attack, Bill. I bet it gave you a lot of personal satisfaction posting that.


02 Jun 10 - 03:03 AM (#2918853)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""It IS complex. There are no "good guys" or "bad guys" in this problem, which has been going on for well over sixty years. Both sides are right, and both sides are wrong - and both sides have committed atrocities in the name of what they see as right.""

While that is all undoubtedly correct Joe, it still leaves a nasty taste in the mouth that one side has a twenty first century technology, while the other is barely halfway through the twentieth, and Western governments allow (even encourage) the vastly stronger playground bully to get away with it.

We wouldn't stand for that behaviour from our children.

Don T.


02 Jun 10 - 03:06 AM (#2918854)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

CarolC's contributions are concise, well made and well supported.

Always good to have debate that predictably involves such clarity.

I must confess I don't generally wade through the swathes of "cut & paste" from BB though (from Israel's 'The Jerusalem' on the first page of this thread, though the source was uncited in the body of the post), as I like to be able to trust - as far as is possible - that the reporting is objective.


02 Jun 10 - 03:32 AM (#2918859)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

I've also seen footage that serves as evidence that Israeli covering fire began before the first abseilers landed on the ship

Can you direct me to that? I could use it in an argument on another site.


02 Jun 10 - 04:02 AM (#2918867)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=59257http%3A%2F%2Fwww.worldbulletin.net%2Fnews_detail.php%3Fid%3D59257

It's the first video below all of the still shots. It was the live feed with the correspondents talking about what was going on as it was happening. On of the English speaking correspondents says there are already wounded people. At that time, there were no Israelis aboard the ship. In a couple of minutes, they report that a helicopter is trying to land, and then you see the helicopter throw out the rope or ladder and Israelis start coming down it.

I was watching all of the live feed as it was happening and I was also posting developments to my facebook page at the same time, so I have a record of the order in which things happened, and that's how I remember it. I've also read an account from someone else who reports it almost exactly as I remember it, and they also say the Israelis opened fire first. Here's some of their account and a link to the whole thing...

http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/ISeekTheTruth?v=app_2347471856

"There, the reports continued, mainly in turkish again but I heard a few in english, and they said that they were waiting around, because they were trying to avoid going into Israeli waters in the night time, since a previous aid ship was intercepted that way in 2009, at night time. They wanted to avoid any showdown at night time, so they backed away and went westward, 90-100 km from the Gaza shores (still in international waters, which protects them from Israeli attack). It was said that the israeli ships turned back. The live feed resumed and you could see people still standing and walking around all tense with their life jackets on.

Around now the live feed was being interrupted every few minutes. It would black out, sometimes the audio would cut off, and then it would return. It was reported that this was Israelis trying to block the sattelite channels from the ships, but every few minutes it would come back. Suddenly, the feed cut off for about 5-10 minutes. I was at the Gaza Tv News page and someone said that 2 people were killed and 30 injured, I didn't believe them.

Suddenly the feed came back, but this time it was from a turkish news channel. It seems as if all other feeds were cut off except for the turkish media passengers. It was some reporters talking live while images of the events in the boat were also happening live. All you could hear was a woman screaming in a different language, and then for a while she was yelling "WE NEED HELP! DON'T ATTACK US! WE ARE UNARMED CIVILIANS! WE NEED HELP! 2 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED!"

After a while of that, it stopped and you could hear Quran being played, and afterward an announcement said "Please stay calm, please take your seats, we have 2 people killed and we don't want any more hurt". You could see people walking back and forth.

Then I saw images of a helicopter flying overhead the boat, and reports said that they were trying to land on the boat.

Then the live feed switched positions and it was now on the deck, you could see ropes let go from above, and soldiers descending one by one, the camera man was reporting that the soliders were opening fire at the civilians, and I actually heard many gunshots over and over. The camera man ducked and another had a shot of a soldier in a confrontation with one passenger, and then I saw soldiers standing on the top of somewhere, no one was around them but I saw one soldier shoot randomly. Then I also saw a group of soldiers standing near the end of a ship wielding guns strutting back and forth before going out of camera view."


Here are some testimonies from flotilla people who have been released and are now talking about it...

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/2010/06/20106193546785656.html


02 Jun 10 - 04:27 AM (#2918876)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I just got word that the European campaign already has the funds for the next flotilla, which will have more aid in it and more people.

The flotillas are just going to keep getting bigger and more frequent until it will become too cumbersome for Israel to continue the blockade.


02 Jun 10 - 04:55 AM (#2918889)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Buy time for the IDF to succeed at what, exactly? The ethnic cleansing?


02 Jun 10 - 05:22 AM (#2918897)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

Ed asks....

"So if you separate out (and ignore) all those with pre-set (vested) opinions (such as countries, journalists, media outlets and individuals who have strong and committed views one way or the other on Israel, Palestine and palistinian political causes, and add in vested interests like arabs, Iranians, muslims, jews) who do you have left to listen to? "

May I suggest that you could do worse than listen to University of Sydney law professor Ben Saul – a man with a history of challenging human rights abuses – writing this week about the attack on the flotilla in International waters..................


"Israel's response to the Gaza flotilla is another unfortunate example of Israel clothing its conduct in the language of international law while flouting it in practice.

Israel claims that paragraph 67(a) of the San Remo Manual on Armed Conflicts at Sea justified the Israeli operation against the flotilla. (The San Remo Manual is an authoritative statement of international law applicable to armed conflicts at sea.)
Paragraph 67(a) only permits attacks on the merchant vessels of neutral countries where they "are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture".

Israel argues that it gave due warnings, which were not heeded.

What Israel conveniently omits to mention is that the San Remo Manual also contains rules governing the lawfulness of the blockade itself, and there can be no authority under international law to enforce a blockade which is unlawful. Paragraph 102 of the Manual prohibits a blockade if "the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade".


The background to that 'proportionality' rule is the experience of past world wars where naval blockades had devastating effects on civilian populations.

There is little question that Israel's blockade of Gaza is disproportionate in legal terms.
The proportionality rule requires an assessment of the military advantage against the harmful effects on civilians. Israel claims that the blockade is necessary to prevent Hamas from mounting indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israeli civilians.

The proportionality principle requires, however, that Israel's security cannot come at any price. A balancing of interests is necessary to ensure that civilians should not pay too dearly for the security needs of others.

Safeguarding the precious lives of innocents and respecting their dignity as fellow humans is the necessary burden that international law imposes on war.

That is why Israel reveals its contempt for international law when, for example in the past, its leaders have pledged to "destroy 100 homes for every rocket fired".

The harmful effects of the blockade on Gazan civilians have included the denial of the basics of life, such as food, fuel and medicine, as well widespread economic collapse.

The UN agency on the ground, the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA), has described a "severe humanitarian crisis" in Gaza in relation to human development, health, education, "the psychological stress" on the population, high unemployment (at 45 per cent) and poverty (with 300,000 people living beneath the poverty line), and the collapse of commerce, industry and agriculture.


Disrupting wildly inaccurate rockets from being fired at relatively underpopulated areas of southern Israel cannot possibly justify the acute disruption of the daily lives and livelihoods of more than one million Gazans. Nor is it lawful to seek to pressure Hamas by instrumentally impoverishing its civilian supporters.

Israel has further argued that it offered the Gaza flotilla an opportunity to deliver aid through the proper Israeli channels.

It is very difficult to regard that offer as sincere given Israel's track record. Israel's practices concerning the transit of goods through Israeli entry points has been arbitrary at best and deliberately obstructive at worst.

The UN notes that everything from crayons to soccer balls to musical instruments has been denied entry into Gaza – hardly rocket components.
Goods sit idle for months or are never delivered at all. In such circumstances, no-one could have any confidence that the goods would ever reach Gaza.

As yet, it is still unknown exactly what happened on board the flotilla vessels boarded by Israeli forces. Even at this early stage, however, some international law matters are fairly clear.

First, absent any intention by the flotilla to attack Israel, or any suspicion of piracy, it was unlawful for Israel to forcibly board foreign merchant vessels in international waters.

Secondly, such action amounted to an unlawful interference in the enforcement jurisdiction of the "flag-States" (countries of registration) of those vessels, such as Turkey.

Thirdly, it violated the fundamental principle of freedom of navigation on the high seas, codified in the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea of 1982.

Fourthly, under international human rights law, the apprehension and detention of those on board the vessels likely amounts to arbitrary, unlawful detention, contrary to article 9 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, since there is lawful basis for detention.

Fifthly, if Israeli forces killed people, they may not only have infringed the human right to life, but they may also have committed serious international crimes. Under article 3 of the Rome Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts against the Safety of Maritime Navigation of 1988, it is an international crime for any person to seize or exercise control over a ship by force, and also a crime to injure or kill any person in the process.

In such cases, any claim of self-defence by Israeli forces is irrelevant. The treaty necessarily adopts a strict approach.

One cannot attack a ship and then claim self-defence if the people on board resist the unlawful use of violence.
Legally speaking, government military forces rappelling onto a ship to illegally capture it are treated no differently than other criminals.
The right of self-defence in such situations rests with the passengers on board: a person is legally entitled to resist one's own unlawful capture, abduction and detention


Israel has become its own worst enemy. It prioritises its own interests with a callous lack of empathy for others. It is simply unable to imagine the suffering it inflicts upon others, and treats harm to Israelis as the only game in town.
Its absolutism of mind and politics has crushing consequences for Palestinians.


Far from ensuring its own security, Israel is unravelling it: no-one should be surprised if Israel has just succeeded in recruiting the next generation of martyrs keen to attack it.

Absolutism, violence, and the evaporation of peace in the region will continue as long as the international community continues to handle Israel with kid gloves."


02 Jun 10 - 05:53 AM (#2918903)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

As to UN law, read the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea (which this is), 12 June 1994

"A state, in a time of conflict, can impose an embargo, and while it cannot carry out embargo activities in the territorial waters of a third party, it can carry out embargo activities in international waters".

It seems permissible under rule 67(a) to attack neutral vessels on the high seas when the vessels "are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture."

So, it is within the international framework to detain a civilian vessel trying to break an embargo (which was the stated purpose, and it was widely reported) and if in the course of detaining the vessel, force is used against the forces carrying out the detention then that force has every right to act in self defense.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce


It is submitted that it is just as logical to believe that those on the flotilla were not on a humanaterian mission, but on a mission to break the naval blockade, as the opposite case.


1) An Al-Jazeera report from May 28,(this is available online) shows activists on board before departing for Gaza, chanting Intifada songs aimed at Jews and praising martyrdom. Chants include "Intifada, intifada, intifada! Khaybar, Khaybar, oh Jews! The army of Mohammed will return!" relating to a seventh century massacre of Jews in Khaybar by early Muslims.

2)Israel offered to transfer the supplies on the flotilla to Gaza from Ashdod port through official channels, an offer that was rejected in favor of confrontation on the part of the anti-Israel activists. As flotilla organizer Greta Berlin stated: "this mission is not about delivering humanitarian supplies, it's about breaking Israel's siege."

3)The Marmara is owned and operated by IHH (which Israel and others see as being linked to terriorists, AKA freedom fighters. IHH is also listed as such by the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, a supporter of radical Islamic networks, including Hamas, and at least in the past, even global jihad elements).


It is also reasonable to believe that Iarael, who has a military blockade in place, has a right to board any vessel it believes is on a belligerent mission. Despite claims that those on board were only prepared to resist peacefully, when Israeli military tried to board Marmara, they were resisted and attacked by many onboard, precipitating the resulting actions.


02 Jun 10 - 05:55 AM (#2918905)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

"The Canadian Association of Journalists and the Quebec Federation of Professional Journalists have denounced actions of Canwest Global (Calgary Herald owner) as "a disturbing pattern of censorship and repression of dissenting views" and called for a parliamentary inquiry"
Q, please provide sources for that statement.


02 Jun 10 - 05:56 AM (#2918906)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: theleveller

There can be no doubt now that Israel should be classed as a terrorist state, for what else was this action but an act of the most blatant terrorism? The sinking of a South Korean gunboat by North Korea has been rightly condemned, but attacking civilians bringing aid to an oppressed and beleagured people is far worse. Israel should now become an international pariah - I, for one, will impose my own personal boycott on Israeli goods.


02 Jun 10 - 06:41 AM (#2918919)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

"The Canadian Association of Journalists and the Quebec Federation of Professional Journalists have denounced actions of Canwest Global (Calgary Herald owner) as "a disturbing pattern of censorship and repression of dissenting views" and called for a parliamentary inquiry"
Q, please provide sources for that statement.

Answer

The information comes from The American Educational Trust a non-profit foundation incorporated in Washington, D.C., under taxation provision 501(c)4 by retired U.S. foreign service officers.

"AET's founders included Edward Firth Henderson, the AET's first chairman, and a former British Ambassador to Qatar; Andrew Killgore, AET's first president, who was U.S. Ambassador to when he retired from theUnited States Foreign Service in 1980; and Richard Curtiss, AET's first executive director, who was chief inspector of the U.S. Information Agency when he retired from the U.S. Foreign Service in 1980.

AET's Foreign Policy Committee has included former U.S. ambassadors, government officials, and members of the United States Congress, including the late Democratic Senator J. William Fulbright, and Republican Senator Charles Percy, both former chairmen of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and members of its Board of Directors and advisory committees "receive no fees for their services."

The AET runs a website, Remember These Children, which lists all Palestinian and Israeli children killed in the current intifada (since September 29, 2000).
The website follows on from two booklets ("Who Will Save the Children?" and "Remember These Children"), which were published in conjunction with Americans for Middle East Understanding, Jews for Peace in Palestine and Israel (now merged into Jewish Voice for Peace), and Black Voices for Peace.[
- Wiki

In general, AET supports Middle East solutions which it judges to be consistent with the charter of the United Nations, international law, the Geneva Conventions, and "traditional American support for human rights, self-determination, and fair play."

As part of its educational mission, AET publishes the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, a 76-page magazine published 9 times per year in Washington, DC, that focuses on news and analysis from and about the Middle East and U.S. policy in that region. AET also maintains the Washington Report Web site.

"Unapologetically Pro-Israel" CanWest Imposes National Editorials on Local Paper

"When Canadian newspaper columnist Doug Cuthand wrote a column that compared the plight of the Palestinians to that of North American Indians, he knew he might provoke some debate.

"I pointed out that the Palestinians had the equivalent of land claim to Israel: they had been forced off their land and placed into camps—the equivalent of reservations. The parallels are really jarring," said Cuthand, an aboriginal Indian documentary filmmaker who has written about Indian affairs for the Regina Leader Post and the Saskatoon Star-Phoenix for 10 years.

"I didn't think they'd like it but I didn't think they'd pull it," he said.....................


02 Jun 10 - 06:47 AM (#2918922)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bonzo3legs

Rent a mob???


02 Jun 10 - 08:12 AM (#2918941)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

Apartheid South Africa was also in some ways a complex problem, with people from different origins trapped in a tragic situation.

But there was no question that the apartheid regime had to be opposed, and had to be swept away.


02 Jun 10 - 08:36 AM (#2918950)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Royston

I'm getting pretty sick and tired of the same old USA, pro-Israel rhetoric.

IHH - A Turkish humanitarian aid organistion that has been active in just about every warzone and natural disaster in recent years. Particularly active in Haiti, for instance. Yes, they work on Islamic principles, but then the Red Cross or CAFOD work on Christian principles. No problem, is there?

Hamas - A fully democratically elected political party. Democratically elected in elections judged by USA and EU inspectors as fully free and fair. I thought Americans understood the nature and significance of democracy?

From the Guardian website today:

"The Israeli army has all but admitted that the activists did not have guns of their own before the raid. Army spokeswoman Avital Leibovich said two pistols were seized from activists but these had been taken from the troops raiding the boat. She claimed the magazines of both weapons had been emptied before they were seized back.

Speaking to al Jazeera she insisted that the force used by the troops was proportionate. "Any metal bar pointing at someone's head can kill," she said.

Asked to list weapons on board she said there were knives, scissors, night vision binoculars, many metal bars and sharp objects. She claimed they had been prepared in advance and added that throwing soldiers off the boat was not the actions of a humanitarian organisation.


So let us all be clear about who the players are and the truth that the vessel, and its passengers, were unarmed (save for whatever normal everyday objects were to hand (knives, scissors, metal poles etc) when they were attacked in international waters by people that opened fire on them from helicopters without provocation.

What would you Israel-apologists have done? Sat there and waited to be shot?


02 Jun 10 - 08:51 AM (#2918957)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

C'mon EdT, you should know by now that this has nothing to do with legality or self defense (nor with the delivery of humanitarian aid for that matter).

The pattern is pretty well established - Israel is provoked until it has no choice but to respond to the provocation thus providing those who hate them with another opportunity to condemn them and call for an end to their state. The response is Pavlovian as evidenced by the majority of posters to this thread.


02 Jun 10 - 08:58 AM (#2918961)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

"save for whatever normal everyday objects were to hand (knives, scissors, metal poles etc"

Did anyone shake their head when they saw photo's of the pitiful so-called "weapons cache". 'You're having a laugh' thinks I, six ships with seven hundred volunteers supposedly "armed" with handful of kitchen knives and some building materials, not to mention of course a jar of pebbles! Jesus, the Scouts would be more dangerously tooled up for bob a job week.


02 Jun 10 - 09:29 AM (#2918972)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

provoked until it has no choice but to respond to the provocation

Like in "domestic violence" cases...


02 Jun 10 - 09:35 AM (#2918974)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger

There is a raft of Israeli propaganda flooding the US national media. The truth remains, Israel attacked an unarmed ship accusing them of representing Al Quaeda. This is an unmitigated lie perpetrated by the Netanyahu government. We will not know the details of this provocation since the Israeli government has put a blackout on how many were killed, what really happened and incarcerated the inhabitants on the Flotilla. In the meantime, Obama has stood by and allowed this atrocity to continue. Yes, killing unarmed civilians on a boat of mercy is an atrocity. This reactive stance by the Israeli government has to be interpreted as another example of the US condoning death squads in South and Central American and now in the Middle East. The only solution to the problem at this point is a complete sanction against Israel, a disinvestment strategy as was employed in South Africa and a boycott of Israeli products.

Obama is in danger of losing the next election. 1. BP   2. Drone attacks on Pakistan
3. Escalated military budget (more than Bush) for two failed aggressions against foreign countries 4. Not addressing the Israeli siege of Gaza and it's military response. 5. Siding with big business corporations on Wall Street to defeat reforms.

Rand Paul is the new dictator that may emerge just as in the thirties in Berlin.

Look for Israel to start WWIII unless the International Community is heeded.


02 Jun 10 - 09:43 AM (#2918981)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

"save for whatever normal everyday objects were to hand (knives, scissors, metal poles etc"

Try attacking the local police force, the military, or a riot squad with these objects and see if they react in a loving way. In fact, police forces in most urban centers (such as NY and LA) are as fearful as a knife as a gun. I suggest doubters view the NY police training film called "sharp edged weapons". I guess these objects just happened to be lying around on deck....ya right.


02 Jun 10 - 10:01 AM (#2918991)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

"police forces in most urban centers"

The point is, they *weren't* police in an urban city centre. And that they didn't find any real weapons of the sort that might be used to blow up Israeli citizens, like for example rocket launchers or grenades and so-on. In other words they found none of the kinds of materials that might just possibly have leant some degree of credence to their paranoid reasoning behind the attack on the flotilla.


02 Jun 10 - 10:08 AM (#2918993)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

"The response is Pavlovian" - well actually no it isn't

Frankly I consider it offensive to suggest that people who are deeply concerned about the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and the conditions reminiscent of apartheid in South Africa are merely the products of some kind of 'conditioning' and personally insulting to my intelligence to form my own opinion about social justice.

Certainly, if one looks at any of the previous threads on this forum whether about the treatment of Isreali Palestinians as second class citizens, the physical, social and emotional effects of an 8 meter tall concrete Apartheid Wall etc it is plain to observe a typical knee jerk reaction where any critic of Zionism, the illegal settlements (many even under Israels own laws) and so on is instantly branded an anti semite.

I would like to know where the Pavlovian reaction referred to at 02 Jun 10 - 08:51 AM is supposed to have been 'learned'

Are these posters all subjected to a daily diet of Hamas newspapers or Palestian supporting news channels?

Is there an equivalent and equal attempt to orchestrate propaganda efforts like that soliciting individuals to become a pro-Israel "media volunteer" designed to flood news websites and forums with pro-Israel arguments and information?

"Dear friends,

We hold the [sic] military supremacy, yet fail the battle over the international media. We need to buy time for the IDF to succeed, and the least we can do is spare some (additional) minutes on the net. The ministry of foreign affairs is putting great efforts in balancing the media, but we all know it's a battle of numbers. The more we post, blog, talkback, vote – the more likely we gain positive sentiment.

I was asked by the ministry of foreign affairs to arrange a network of volunteers, who are willing to contribute to this effort. If you're up to it you will receive a daily messages & media package as well as targets."

from Richard Silverstein's (a contributer to the Independent Jewish Voices essay collection A Time to Speak Out) article guardian.co.uk, Friday 9 January 2009


Well I'm prepared to put MY 'vested interests' on the line here.

I have Jewish ancestry
I cherish the thought that like a daughter of Holocaust survivors I could feel that the 'ultimate Jewish values' of 'compassion tolerance and rescue' formed and guided my principles.

I supposrt the organization ... WINDOWS - CHANNELS FOR COMMUNICATION...çìåðåú

a non-profit, joint organization of Jewish and Palestinian citizens of Israel and Palestinians from the Occupied Palestinian Territories.
Established in 1991, Windows promotes acquaintance, and understanding between both peoples, as well as empowerment of the youth with whom we work, through educational and cultural programs, media and art

My views are my own and I am NOT some kind of reverse hasbaranik with repetition compulsion.


02 Jun 10 - 10:12 AM (#2918996)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: theleveller

Oh dear, EdT, you're really struggling to find some sort of justification there. I suppose you'd be happy for armed troops to burst into your house and kill your family just because you happened to have a pair of scissors lying around. Don't be such a complete plonker.


02 Jun 10 - 10:31 AM (#2919002)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

"The Canadian Association of Journalists and the Quebec Federation of Professional Journalists have denounced actions of Canwest Global (Calgary Herald owner) as "a disturbing pattern of censorship and repression of dissenting views" and called for a parliamentary inquiry"

Of course I meant where and when did these two Canadian organizations say that, not USA folks....(about an organization that owns a lot of stuff, not the newspaper itself). BTW, these two organizations represents and advocates for its journalist members. Their main issues with Canwest Global is that they concentrate ownership and lay off reporters, so they don't like them....as is happening with most world media sources....including in the USA and the UK.


By the way, Canwest has recently been restructured and it's TV and newspaper and online-publishing assets are separately up for sale, if any of you folks have an interest?


02 Jun 10 - 10:36 AM (#2919004)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

When a ship is boarded by pirates the crew and passengers have every legal right to use whatever they have to hand to defend themselves.


02 Jun 10 - 10:39 AM (#2919006)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

"Oh dear, EdT, you're really struggling to find some sort of justification there. I suppose you'd be happy for armed troops to burst into your house and kill your family just because you happened to have a pair of scissors lying around. Don't be such a complete plonker".

No plonking or struggle, to reach common sense, (I know it is a misnomer) on my part. No, I would not take up a knife or other weapon ( or what could be seen as a weapon) against police nor the military...on or off duty. Mainly because I have seen first hand what can happen and because I do not believe confronting these folks with weapons of any type is ever wise. I call it common sense and a desire for survival. You may call it something else...as I am sure you will:)


02 Jun 10 - 10:42 AM (#2919007)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

"When a ship is boarded by pirates the crew and passengers have every legal right to use whatever they have to hand to defend themselves"

Maybe so, though it seems very stupid to me, as it can lead to your injury or death.

And, there is the disagreement about the legality of this (and other) naval blockade, that I suspect will not be sorted out on mudcat.


02 Jun 10 - 10:59 AM (#2919016)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

"My views are my own and I am NOT some kind of reverse hasbaranik with repetition compulsion."

I wasn't aware of the Israeli government initiative to flood the media with pro-Israeli propaganda via the mouths of volunteers. They tell these fake "bloggers" what to say, and even provide them with suitable YouTube clips and everything. It's all pretty 'Eeew'. We know we can't always trust the media for impartiality, but this state orchestrated barrage of propaganda hiding behind a front of fraudulent "bloggers" feels much more cynical and insideous.


02 Jun 10 - 11:01 AM (#2919018)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bonzo3legs

Activists are just troublemakers - they knew what they were going into.


02 Jun 10 - 11:03 AM (#2919020)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Despite claims that those on board were only prepared to resist peacefully, when Israeli military tried to board Marmara, they were resisted and attacked by many onboard, precipitating the resulting actions.

Except that the Israelis started shooting before anyone had a chance to resist, which makes it a war crime.


02 Jun 10 - 11:19 AM (#2919028)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

Ed - answer mark 2
- not totally relevent to the thread but certainly indicates the bias of reporting in a section of the Canadian media and how any report of the attack upon the flotilla might just be not entirely 'objective'

A website devoted to cross-media ownership, convergence & concentration in Canada has published a 'time line' about the formation of CanWest Global and its dispute with journalists at The Montreal Gazette in 2001 onwards

Sept. 1 Montreal Gazette publisher Michael Goldbloom quits, cryptically citing differences with CanWest over the direction the chain is taking

November Peggy Curran, TV critic at The Montreal Gazette, writes a column about a CBC documentary about to be aired. The topic is the treatment of journalists in the occupied territories. Her column is first held, then a rewrite is ordered. Curran complies, the amended column runs, but she then gives up her TV-critic spot and goes on a year's leave of absence.

Dec. 5
CanWest announces national editorials to run in all major dailies except one of the two CanWest owns in Vancouver, BC. A mini-insurrection erupts, leading to newsroom turmoil at the Montreal Gazette and the quashing of a byline protest. Editorial Page editor Peter Hadekel asks to be reassigned. His request is granted.

Dec. 11
Fifty-four journalists and other staff at The Montreal Gazette publish an open letter denouncing the national editorial policy as an infringement on freedom of expression. The text runs in Toronto and French-language Montreal newspapers but is not carried, much less mentioned, in any CanWest publication. The protest is covered by Canoe, a web site owned by a rival media operation, Quebecor. Other journalists add their signatures after the fact, bringing the total to 77.

Dec. 14
An "advisory" to unionized staff from Montreal Gazette management warns employees that working there is a privilege, not a right. The gag order warns that employees risk disciplinary action, up to and including dismissal, for sharing the internal goings-on at CanWest with rival media or publicly questioning the motives of management. The Montreal Newspaper Guild (a Local of TNG Canada/CWA) files a grievance but, under pressure, a web site independently set up by Gazette employees to voice their concerns is taken off-line. The Federation of Professional Journalists of Quebec soon re-posts the material on its Web server.

June 6 2002
Full-page ads appear in the Globe and Mail, the Winnipeg Free Press and Halifax's Chronicle-Herald – three of the few major Canadian newspapers not controlled by CanWest – denouncing the company's stifling of debate and dissent. The signatories are a Who's Who of Canadian journalism, including former publishers and executives of the newspapers now owned by CanWest. The ad was refused for publication in any CanWest paper.

Sept. 17 2004
Reuters news agency says it will be having a chat with CanWest Global officials about editors at their newspapers inserting inappropriate terminology, such as "terrorists," into their coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. CBC Ottawa reports that the National Post altered Reuters copy while The Ottawa Citizen, which was caught out by an alert reader, distorted an Associated Press story for which it ran a correction.

Members of the Asper family, which owns CanWest, have never made a secret of their unqualified support for Israel and their disdain for journalists who strive to be objective in their coverage of the Middle East conflict(s). While Izzy Asper and his now-CEO son, Leonard, clearly delivered the message to CanWest Global reporters and editors that news copy as well as "national editorials" would reflect their personal views, this is the first time a news service has publicly objected to its copy being altered in such a way.

Sept 22
Globe and Mail publishes a commentary by Mazen Chouaib, executive director of the National Council on Canada-Arab Relations, in which he calls upon "Parliament to take a hard look at the impact and effect of media concentration in this country." Excerpts:

When the late Israel Asper's CanWest Global Communications acquired a significant share of the Canadian media, many of us feared the worst — particularly on the issue of Middle East coverage. In the past week, CanWest's editorial practices have shown we were right to worry.

• • •

For many Arab Canadians, this is another example of what they have long complained about: CanWest seems to make every effort to demonize them and their culture. There have been many complaints by Arab groups against CanWest, but the organization maintains an uncompromising and unapologetic position.

Nov. 17
The pro-Israel Aspers acquire a 50-per-cent interest in the Jerusalem Post, an English-language daily owned by disgraced media baron Conrad Black

link


02 Jun 10 - 11:22 AM (#2919030)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Bobad's insinuation that all of the people involved the flotilla are anti-Semites is not only an insult to our intelligence, it is also an insult to his intelligence as well. (When I say that, I am giving him the benefit of the doubt.)

I wonder what pavlovian conditioning Holocaust survivor Heddie Epstein was responding to when she signed up to accompany the flotilla.


02 Jun 10 - 11:44 AM (#2919039)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.

We know we can't always trust the media for impartiality...

Sorry but bloggers whether "real" or "fake" are hardly "the media".

Any jackass can post a blog and anyone that would believe what's written thereon without independent confirmation from a reliable source is worse than an idiot.


02 Jun 10 - 11:53 AM (#2919046)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

Golly I'm agreeing with GregF. Is it the apocalypse?


02 Jun 10 - 11:59 AM (#2919054)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

"Any jackass can post a blog"

Blogs are, or so we imagine, generally created by individual jackasses, and not generally mass-generated by jackass governments.


02 Jun 10 - 12:16 PM (#2919063)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens

Amazing number of experts on international maritime law seem to be Mudcat regulars. Must be the shanty singing I suppose.


02 Jun 10 - 12:25 PM (#2919071)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I don't know why anyone would think that the mainstream media (corporate media) whould be any more reliable than independent bloggers. Many independent bloggers are professional career journalists who no longer work for the corporate media because they refused to toe the corporate line. Just as with the corporate media, anyone reading a blog should verify whenever possible, but to make blanket statements about all bloggers makes no sense at all and shows a lot of ignorance about the nature of blogs these days.


02 Jun 10 - 12:46 PM (#2919091)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

CarolC,

"All of that stuff was planted by the Israelis, beardedbruce"

You have some proof? I have no proof that the deaths were not caused by the pro-Palestinians themselves- since they are the ones benefiting from it, I guess that means they should be presumed to be guilty .


02 Jun 10 - 12:54 PM (#2919094)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Royston

Beardedbruce

The proof is in the press - courtesy of the Israeli military spokeswoman that was quoted in the Guardian article I produced earlier today.

The only "weapons" apart from scissors, swiss army knives and kitchen knives, were guns and night vision scopes that were taken from, or dropped by, the Israeli soldiers. And were later returned. The spokeswoman said that the clips in the guns were empty when returned - she did not, or could not, say who fired the bullets.

I don't believe that Israeli special forces are in the habit of relinquishing loaded weapons to civilians armed with screwdrivers and tools for getting stones out of horse's hoof!

Fact, the boats and their passengers were unarmed.

The Israeli military have confirmed this.


02 Jun 10 - 01:04 PM (#2919098)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

IDF: Hamas stops flotilla aid delivered by israel
By the CNN Wire Staff
June 2, 2010 12:04 p.m. EDT

STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Trucks of flotilla aid halted stopped at Gaza crossing
Clothing, medical material, blankets on trucks
Israel has naval blockade of Gaza

Jerusalem (CNN) -- Israel has attempted to deliver humanitarian aid from an international flotilla to Gaza, but Hamas -- which controls the territory -- has refused to accept the cargo, the Israel Defense Forces said Wednesday.

Palestinian sources said trucks that arrived from Israel at the Rafah terminal at the Israel-Gaza border were barred from delivering the aid over protests that members of the flotilla were not delivering the materials.

Israel had 20 trucks of aid found on the ships, such as expired medications, clothing, blankets, some medical equipment and toys.

Nine people died on Monday when Israel intercepted an aid vessel bound for Gaza.

Under Israeli policy, humanitarian aid must come through Israel and be checked by Israeli authorities who are looking to intercept smuggled weapons bound for militants aiming to attack Israel.

As part of this policy Israel forbids ships from dropping off goods at Gaza ports and works to thwart smuggling via tunnels between Gaza and Egypt.


02 Jun 10 - 01:04 PM (#2919099)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Arthur_itus

David Cameron has condemned the Israeli raid on an aid convoy in Gaza as "completely unacceptable".

In his first question time as prime minister, he said he deplored the loss of life and everything should be done to prevent it happening again.

Here is the link
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/10218450.stm

Make of it what you will.


02 Jun 10 - 01:04 PM (#2919100)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

source


02 Jun 10 - 01:09 PM (#2919105)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

BB,

The Information blackout was imposed by the Israeli military after the attack began.

Up until that point, the flotilla had been 100% transparent, with numerous international parliamentary and media representatives on hand to ensure this transcparency.

It was the Israeli military who wanted to stop information getting out.

So who had something to hide?


02 Jun 10 - 01:13 PM (#2919111)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

Ah, Hamas is playing politics with the aid shipments, therefore Israel was justified in attacking unarmed ships in international waters? Such logic.


02 Jun 10 - 01:16 PM (#2919115)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

The Israelis were also carrying hit lists of people they were supposed to try to kill. I saw one of them being displayed by the correspondents periodically on the live feed. Here is a picture of the hit list I saw being displayed...

http://www.kawther.info/wpr/wp-content/uploads/1-18.jpg


02 Jun 10 - 01:38 PM (#2919130)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.

mousethief: Golly I'm agreeing with GregF. Is it the apocalypse?

Sorry! I'll try harder next time ;>)


02 Jun 10 - 02:16 PM (#2919149)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

There were a number of Arab Palestinians on board, some from Israel itself. They are not being released with the others.
One newscast said that a number of the Turks aboard also were being held.


02 Jun 10 - 03:15 PM (#2919197)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: EBarnacle

CarolC: "All that stuff was planted." I suggest you read "Looking for a Ship" by McPhee on the subject of smuggling and inspections.

"Safeguarding the precious lives of innocents and respecting their dignity as fellow humans is the necessary burden that international law imposes on war." If you are engaged in a provocative act, you are a participant, not an innocent.

Of the ships in the flotilla, how many actually were fired upon? And by fired upon, I mean with more than a shot across the bowx. How many had violent incidents when boarded?

I know for a fact that part of police training amounts to the following: If the person appears to show any threat, pull out your club. If he pulls a knife, pull out your gun. If he still threatens you, shoot [now, it's Taze] him. We don't want you to be hurt or killed in the line of duty. Should soldiers respond any differently when threatened?

Hamas in Gaza is playing a wonderful game. While not officially at war with Israel, they make no effort to stop their so called militants from attacking Israel. These attacks, if addressed at all, are then disclaimed as the actions of militants.

I have spoken with members of the Palestinian Mission to the United Nations in the line of business. I find it curious that people can find money for weapons but cannot find the money for Atmospheric Water Generation equipment which would benefit the population of the Strip.

Curiouser and curiouser said Alice.


02 Jun 10 - 03:19 PM (#2919198)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

beardedbruce, on the subject of the faked "evidence"...

http://ht.ly/1TaQb


02 Jun 10 - 03:22 PM (#2919200)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

EBarnicle, shots from the helicopters wounded two people. We know this because the correspondents reported it in the live feed before the ropes had even come out of the helicopter that you can see in the live feed, and before any of the Israelis had left the helicopter.


02 Jun 10 - 03:31 PM (#2919206)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I should point out, for those who don't like to open links, those "weapons" weren't even planted. The Israelis didn't even bother to do that. They just gathered up some pictures that were a few years old, put them up on Flikr, and then they just waited for all of the useful idiots to go out and do their work for them.


02 Jun 10 - 03:32 PM (#2919207)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

If Hamas are preventing the Aid from getting through then they are undermining the efforts and intentions of the flotilla.

For this I condemn them outright.

Just As I condemn the Israelis from hijacking the flotilla and murdering the civilians on board.


02 Jun 10 - 03:35 PM (#2919208)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Maybe they are and maybe they aren't. I've also heard reports that none of the supplies ever even got to the Gaza border, and that the government of Israel has disappeared them, blaming it on Hamas (some of the reports have even suggested that the supplies have gone to Jewish settlements). I think I'll wait for more information before I believe that one, considering the Israeli government's track record of lies and what has happened to supplies from previous flotillas that were confiscated by the government of Israel.


02 Jun 10 - 04:07 PM (#2919237)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.

Some time back, a friend of mine, while working on a wildlife site in a London park, was engaged with by a group of four lads spoiling for a fight. It was a very peculiar business (there was a territorial issue, over the lads continued attempts to remove fences from the site, I recall), in which the four lads, approaching six foot, but only 14 years old, claimed to be being picked on by my unarmed 5ft 8in friend. The lads had a metal tipped cricket stump. Eventually all was resolved, but one thing stuck in my mind. The claim by the leader of lads' friends that "he was only little".

Every time Israel gets into one of these situations, and tries to justify itself, I hear that lads' claim.

Penny


02 Jun 10 - 04:36 PM (#2919274)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

[From: CarolC - PM
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 03:31 PM
I should point out, for those who don't like to open links, those "weapons" weren't even planted. The Israelis didn't even bother to do that. They just gathered up some pictures that were a few years old, put them up on Flikr, and then they just waited for all of the useful idiots to go out and do their work for them.]

Link to Irael MFA's Flickr Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/israel-mfa/

Can anyone explain to me, how so many of the posters in response to these images, are able (apparently) to ascertain that the images of the umm seized "weapons cache" are in fact way out of date, and thus not images of anything on board the flotilla.

Irrespective of whether or not the images are genuinely of what they are purported to be of, I find it a bit bizarre that the Israeli's would have even bothered falsifying 'evidence' of a "weapons cache" comprised of a kitchen knives, woodworking tools and marbles..


02 Jun 10 - 04:40 PM (#2919278)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

Lets try that again:

[From: CarolC - PM
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 03:31 PM
I should point out, for those who don't like to open links, those "weapons" weren't even planted. The Israelis didn't even bother to do that. They just gathered up some pictures that were a few years old, put them up on Flikr, and then they just waited for all of the useful idiots to go out and do their work for them.]

Link to Irael MFA's Flickr Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/israel-mfa/ (I've kept the original url in the link there, in case anyone's dubious about what they might be clicking on)

Can anyone explain to me, how so many of the posters in response to these images, are able (apparently) to ascertain that the images of the umm seized "weapons cache" are in fact way out of date, and thus not images of anything on board the flotilla.

Irrespective of whether or not the images are genuinely of what they are purported to be of, I find it a bit bizarre that the Israeli's would have even bothered falsifying 'evidence' of a "weapons cache" comprised of a kitchen knives, woodworking tools and marbles..


02 Jun 10 - 05:10 PM (#2919301)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I don't know the process one would use to find this information, but this is what one of the commenters posted in the comments of the saw photograph. Maybe someone with more technical expertise can explain how one goes about getting the EXIF metadata from photographs posted in a site like flikr...


Hi. Just to confirm that the EXIF metadata points to this photo being taken in 2006:

barney@benchwood:~$ identify -verbose farm5.static.flickr.com/4047/4662965686_a91f8 bab2e_o_d.jpg | grep Date
exif:DateTime: 2010:06:02 10:38:47
exif:DateTimeDigitized: 2006:02:07 05:52:19
exif:DateTimeOriginal: 2006:02:07 05:52:19


I notice a lot of bouquets of red flowers laying around in that picture. I wonder what those are doing there.


02 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM (#2919327)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke

Java EXIF viewer from a dependable source, though it only gives the original date. You'll need to have the Java runime on your computer.


02 Jun 10 - 05:36 PM (#2919336)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Thanks, Paul.


02 Jun 10 - 05:59 PM (#2919358)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I asked one of my Facebook friends, a young woman who lives in Gaza, if she knows anything about the reports that Hamas has refused to allow the aid to enter Gaza, and this was her response...

"that news are just stupid lies !! well i think that they are looking for a way to make it a little bit easier on Isreal !! it is not not not true !! Hamas people still PALESTINIAN .. and they can not and would not do this !! they need it more than every body !!! how they could do that !!! Crazy westren news !!"

I will keep looking around for more information, though.


02 Jun 10 - 06:24 PM (#2919375)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

"I notice a lot of bouquets of red flowers laying around in that picture. I wonder what those are doing there."

Yep, lots of plastic wrapped bunches of red roses or carnations laying about on board next to that umm "weapon": http://www.flickr.com/photos/israel-mfa/4662965686/

Could that site be a spoof?


02 Jun 10 - 06:31 PM (#2919378)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

More reported weapons on the flotilla (I've left the url in): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PV4eiDi12w


02 Jun 10 - 06:35 PM (#2919379)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Could that site be a spoof?

No, the hasbara people really are that dumb.


02 Jun 10 - 10:42 PM (#2919524)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Nutmeg is coming to destroy Israel


02 Jun 10 - 11:34 PM (#2919544)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

Nutmeg and sunflower seeds. Those can be made into rockets. Put de lime in de coconut. That was about liquid explosives, remember?


02 Jun 10 - 11:34 PM (#2919545)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bobert

Ain't rocket surgery...

Isreal is strengthening Hamas with it's blockaid...

Folks root fir the underdog and Isreal is creating an underdog in Hmas...

Time for some serious rethinkin' in Isreal... Times have changed... Military might alone won't keep Isreal secure... This is a new deal here... People are too connected... Isreal is fightin' the "last war"...

I'd say it's time to get this thing figured out... Without the the friggin' militraists this time... They are passe'... They have nuthin' to offer...

B~


02 Jun 10 - 11:42 PM (#2919548)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I understand about the lexdexia, Bobert, but I can't let this one pass...

Isreal is strengthening Hamas with it's blockaid...


Maybe that's what they should call the next flotilla. It's perfect.


03 Jun 10 - 12:08 AM (#2919559)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

Oooh! Major PR coup! I can see a concert with big-name stars, raising money for cardamon and nutmeg and sunflower seeds to smuggle into Gaza:

BLOCKAID

Please give generously.


03 Jun 10 - 12:27 AM (#2919567)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

By the way, one way people can help the Palestinians cope with the economic difficulties they face because of the stranglehold that the Israeli government and military have over them is to go to this site and buy some of their great products. They are made in Palestine by Palestinians (not in an apartheid settler colony). I bought a kufiyeh that was made in the last Palestinian kufiyeh factory by Mr. Herbawi and I love it.

http://www.palestineonlinestore.com/


03 Jun 10 - 01:09 AM (#2919578)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I just got word from a source I trust that Israel has stolen all of the aid along with the ships, and has no intention of letting any of it go to help the people in Gaza. I'll keep an eye out for more sources of information about this for further verification.


03 Jun 10 - 01:17 AM (#2919579)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMq19qHq7Jo&feature=player_embedded


03 Jun 10 - 03:29 AM (#2919617)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll

Yesterday I heard an Israeli spokesman claim that cement was a banned import into Gaza (deperately needed to re-build damage done to schools and hospitals by the last Israeli incursion) because it could be used by Hamas to build military installations!! Following this 'logic' I assume that foodstuffs could be added to the list because it could be used to feed Hamas fighters!
I don't know how far the forged Irish passports incident has hit the world press. A couple of months ago Israeli terrorists used forged Irish passports.

From The Belfast Telegraph:
"Members of a hit squad that assassinated a top Hamas military commander used Irish passports to enter and leave Dubai, it's been claimed.
The suspected Israeli hit team, including at least one woman, entered the United Arab Emirates using Irish documents, police authorities said.
Mahmoud al-Mabhouh (50), held responsible by Israel for the abduction and murder of two Israeli soldiers in 1989, died in mysterious circumstances on January 20 in a Dubai hotel room.
The Irish Department of Foreign Affairs spokesman said yesterday: "We are aware of the media reports and we are in contact with authorities locally to try and determine the truth of the reports."
Al-Mabhouh was said to have been shocked with an electric weapon held to his legs and then suffocated or poisoned.
Iran and Hamas have blamed Israel for the killing, but Israeli news media claimed al-Mabhouh had many enemies and could have been killed by other Arab factions.
Up to seven people were said to have been involved in al-Mabhouh's killing, four of whom used Irish passports to enter Dubai and who later fled to a "European country" after the killing, according to police sources in Dubai.
Declining to reveal their identities, an official said UAE security personnel were co-ordinating with Interpol to have them extradited
A few years ago the Israeli's were reported to have sent one of their murder-squads to the Irish Republic to carry out the murder of a Palestinian seeking refuge here."

Nazi extermination camps were at their most efficient during my lifetime, so I grew up surrounded by horrific images of Belsen and Auschwitz. I'm sure I'm not alone in finding it extremely distressing to witness the persecuted having become the persecuters and resorting to many of the tactics used by their former 'ethnic cleansers' in pursuit of a two thousand year old myth.
This bunch are shitting on the memory of their own predecessors.
Jim Carroll


03 Jun 10 - 05:34 AM (#2919651)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""The pattern is pretty well established - Israel is provoked until it has no choice but to respond to the provocation thus providing those who hate them with another opportunity to condemn them and call for an end to their state. The response is Pavlovian as evidenced by the majority of posters to this thread.""

That is the best example of pure horseshit I have seen for many a day.

1. PIRACY! The aid ships were in international waters. For the Israelis to claim justification, or provocation, they would have to be inside Israeli territorial limits, or what the Israelis claim as their territorial waters (not necessarily the same thing).

2. The Israeli blockade is of dubious legality to say the least, and if it cannot be justified, then neither can any action taken in its support.

3. NO CONTRABAND WAS FOUND! Experience of the efficiency of Israeli Intelligence leads one to suspect that they would have known exactly what was, or was not, aboard those ships, in which case they were intentionally targetting a humanitarian aid shipment, with the intention of harming innocent civilians in Gaza.

4. Nothing that has been advanced or proposed as justification stands analytical scrutiny. This is just another case of the Middle East's biggest bully flexing its muscles in full expectation of support from the West's biggest bully.

Don T.


03 Jun 10 - 05:50 AM (#2919653)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

'Among the calamities of war may be jointly numbered the diminution of the love of truth, by the falsehoods which interest dictates and credulity encourages.' (from Samuel Johnson In The Idler, 1758)

So what is the reality behind the bombardment of information from the Jerusalem Post and the vociferous number of internet 'programmed posters' that Hamas has refused the delivery of the electric wheelchairs on board the Freedom Flotilla

Amongst the reports which state that a condition of negotiation about the disposal of the aid is the release of ALL the detainees from the flotilla without exception (some are still detained for 'unspecified reasons') it is sometimes possible to spot the comment by Ahmed Kurd, Minister for Social Welfare in the Hamas government
"We also insist that the equipment be delivered in its entirety."

The Jerusalem Post (part of the CanWest empire) reports that Kurd 'claims' the batteries have been removed from the wheelchairs

It is a fact that batteries are on the list of goods banned from import into Gaza - the lack of fuel for the Gaza power plant has forced hospitals to rely exclusively on back-up generators, which are not intended for prolonged use and are often damaged.
The replacement parts needed to fix them cannot be brought in so hospitals try to use Uninterruptible Power Supply devices to reduce the risk of power cuts on sensitive medical equipment; however, these rely on batteries.

So do we assume that the battery units required to power the wheelchairs have been impounded under the current ban rendering the 'delivery' of the chairs an empty gesture or that the Israeli authorities have suddenly had a total reversal change of heart under the scrutiny of the world or go along with the Jerusalem posts allegation that "This proves the whole thing was a provocation"?


Propaganda war: trusting what we see?

..."I have had several hundred e-mails about this article. They are more or less evenly balanced between those who criticise it and those who praise it. I think I have replied to all.

I would stress that I looked only at the Israeli side because of the new factor - Israel setting up a special unit to improve the projection of its arguments around the world."


03 Jun 10 - 06:00 AM (#2919655)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""I find it curious that people can find money for weapons but cannot find the money for Atmospheric Water Generation equipment which would benefit the population of the Strip.""

There were NO weapons aboard that flotilla!

And if they did find the money, purchase the equipment, and have it shipped over, I suppose in your fantasy world the Israelis would simply let it through?

ROFLMAO
Don T.


03 Jun 10 - 06:17 AM (#2919660)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

That point about the atmospheric water generator kind of smacks of "let them eat cake" anyway. Even if they did have one, how the hell could they use it if Israel won't let them have enough electricity to run it?


03 Jun 10 - 07:26 AM (#2919676)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

"the Geneva-based UN Human Rights Council voted to set up an independent international inquiry into the raid."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10222131.stm

I'm a bit confused about this supposed 'independent' inquiry, I thought the US BLOCKED an independent UN inquiry, and instead successfully pushed for it to be conducted by Israel itself. Or is the use of the term 'independent' a fudge?


03 Jun 10 - 07:33 AM (#2919678)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

Ah, my fault. I'm muddling up the UN human rights council with the UN security council.


03 Jun 10 - 09:10 AM (#2919703)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

It is confusing.....

"U.S. President Barack Obama stepped in to save Israel yesterday at the United Nations Security Council from an independent probe of Tuesday morning's Gaza flotilla raid that resulted in the Israeli navy killing nine civilians. Hopefully, Israel will express its gratitude to our nation by continuing its freeze on settlements in the West Bank and negotiating seriously with the Palestinians toward an end to the occupation and a solution for Gaza.

But a U.S. 'no' vote could not halt another U.N. body, the Human Rights Council – the group that commissioned the Goldstone Report – from today launching its own probe of the botched Israeli move to halt a civilian humanitarian aid operation for Gaza."

- from a report by Eileen White Read
a former Wall Street Journal defense, technology, and communications professional for international NGOs in human rights, microcredit, and advocacy. Currently working on an anti-genocide project at a Washington, DC, think tank.

Read White AND the Jerusalem Post are already referring to this as Goldstone 11

In April 2009, the United Nations Human Rights Council appointed South African jurist Richard Goldstone to lead the mission of investigating war crimes committed by Israel in the war in Gaza between December 27, 2008 and January 18, 2009.

This report concluded that both Israel and Hamas were probably guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity causing Harvard Law School's Professor Alan Dershowitz to call Goldstone "a traitor using his Jewishness to malign Israel… He is an evil man, one who allowed himself to be used against the Jewish people, an absolute traitor."

The Israeli government refused to conduct an independent investigation of the report's findings.

A senior official in prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office said "Bibi is satisfied with the IDF's internal probe, the preliminary results of which were submitted to the United Nations" in early February.

The US representative at the security council discussions, Alejandro Wolff, has indicated that Washington would be satisfied with Israel investigating itself when he called for it to undertake a credible investigation into the murders on board the Freedom Flotilla

Ynet the Tel Aviv based newspaper reported -

' "Israel regrets the UN Human Rights Council's decision to launch an independent investigation into the raid before the incident ended.
Such a decision indicates politicization, not genuine concern for human rights," Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said Thursday.
Members of the so-called forum of seven ministers, including Eli Yishai and Benny Begin, are opposed to the establishment of an international commission of inquiry and have called to wait for the IDF to publish its own findings.'

"We'll know how to investigate the raid from every angle and draw the necessary conclusions" said Vice Prime Minister Moshe Ya'alon


03 Jun 10 - 09:15 AM (#2919705)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bobert

Well, one thing is fir sure... Isreal is at yet another crossroads and bickering amoung themselves... That sometimes is a good thing... Hope the reasobale people don't get shouted down by their Military/Industrialists...

B~


03 Jun 10 - 09:19 AM (#2919708)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

B. B. Wolfe said, after the raid on the chicken coop by a band of roving wolves under his oversight, "I know how to investigate this raid from every angle and draw the necessary conclusions."

Good grief. They don't even try to make their lies probable anymore. Who was it that said if you repeat a lie often enough people will believe it? The Israeli government has clearly learned the lesson well.

Also accusing the UNHRC of not caring about human rights is ROFLMAO.


03 Jun 10 - 09:23 AM (#2919711)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy

As always happens in events of this nature, observers such as ourselves never are able to access the full facts & issues surrounding the incident.

However, what I've gleaned from overall info leads me to a conclusion thus:

The Israeli forces [I stress not necessarily representing all Israeli people as a homogeneous mass] violently attacked unarmed civilian vessels & their crews with military weapons.

The Iraeli PM & govt spokespeople in official statements justify these crimes as 'self protection' of their forces.

Pondering why it was necessary to kill people wielding sticks, knives whatever clearly protecting themselves, when there's other non lethal technologies available such as tear gas, tazers etc.

Consequently, its not a suprise I'm feeling [as most on here, & along with the rest of world opposition] that what's happened is murder.

I heard Bang Ki Moon of UN speaking on it, but sadly feel that group are paper tigers against the US/Israeli pact.

I could go on.............weep,,,,,,,,,join Amnesty International or similar..........


03 Jun 10 - 09:34 AM (#2919715)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_clash


03 Jun 10 - 09:43 AM (#2919721)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger

There is no confusion here. Mark Regev and the Israel and AIPAC propaganda forces are saturating the main stream news media with their distorted and lying stories about the naked aggression against peaceful demonstrators. Disinvestment against Israel is one of the courses that must be taken. The IDF is the new KGB or SS.

We'll see what happens with the "Rachel Corrie" when it tries to get through.

It's the same as what happened in South Africa. The people of Gaza are in a canton.
They need their civil rights restored.

Shame on Israel.


03 Jun 10 - 10:15 AM (#2919734)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

'Next time we'll use more force'

'Navy prepares for expected arrival of 2 more activist ships.

Israel will use more aggressive force in the future to prevent ships from breaking the sea blockade on the Gaza Strip, a top Navy commander told The Jerusalem Post on Tuesday.

"We boarded the ship and were attacked as if it was a war," the officer said. "That will mean that we will have to come prepared in the future as if it was a war." '

From the article by Eileen Read White quoted earlier -

"Hasbara, or Israeli political spin, is actually already underway – a multi-million-dollar PR machine, involving government employees, academics, friendly journalists, consultants, and activists around the world. CNN reports that, after displaying "a willful indifference to public opinion for years," the Israel Defense Force is trying hasbara on the convoy killings story, posting a series of heavily-edited short videos of the situation aboard ship on YouTube, showing only soldiers being hit as they arrived on board – no footage of the soldiers killing nine civilians.

Israel-related media around the world are running stories about the commandos landing and shooting their paintball guns – with zero reference to the fact that their real guns killed nine people."

A brutal ambush at sea

"Navy commandoes slid down to the vessel one by one, yet then the unexpected occurred: The passengers that awaited them on the deck pulled out bats, clubs, and slingshots with glass marbles, assaulting each soldier as he disembarked. The fighters were nabbed one by one and were beaten up badly, yet they attempted to fight back.

However, to their misfortune, they were only equipped with paintball rifles used to disperse minor protests, such as the ones held in Bilin. The paintballs obviously made no impression on the activists, who kept on beating the troops up and even attempted to wrest away their weapons."

However the next paragraph ststes clearly.....

"One soldier who came to the aid of a comrade was captured by the rioters and sustained severe blows. The commandoes were equipped with handguns but were told they should only use them in the face of life-threatening situations."

The 'rioters' or passengers, as perhaps they should be more correctly termed, presumably were not expected to use self defence in 'life threatening situations'


03 Jun 10 - 10:25 AM (#2919740)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I've gone through a long process of figuring out where I stand on the subject of whether or not Israel should continue as a Jewish state. At first, I felt that a two state solution was the best one because the events of the Holocaust necessitated a place where Jews could be in the majority.

But there are many Jews who have persuaded me with their arguments, that a state with a permanent Jewish majority can never work. They say that Israel will have to implement a permanent state of ethnic cleansing and discrimination against non-Jews in order to maintain a permanent Jewish majority. I think they are right about that, but I still was having a problem trying to figure out how to address the needs of Jews that arose in light of past persecutions.

A few months ago, I finally figured out where I stand on this with no ambiguity in my mind. The Gypsies have suffered all of the same persecutions as Jews have, including their genocide and attempted extermination in the holocaust. And they have not experienced any of the gains that Jews have in the last century. Jews are one of the most protected, if not the most protected minority group in the world today. Gypsies do not have the kind of protection that Jews have today, so their place in the world is much more insecure.

So I ask myself - if it were proposed that some indigenous population somewhere should be permanently displaced and dispossessed in order to create an exclusive state for the Gypsies, would I support that? And I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that I would not. In light of this, I now know that I cannot support the permanent displacement and dispossession of the Palestinians in order to provide Jews with an exclusive state of their own.


03 Jun 10 - 10:47 AM (#2919754)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I just got word back from my friend in Gaza. She went to a Hamas office and asked about what the Hamas position was in regard to receiving the aid. She said they told her that they wanted the aid to come to Gaza with the flotilla. She said they are sensitive to the reality that if they accepted the aid from Israel themselves, instead of letting the people on the flotilla bring it to Gaza, people would say that Hamas was keeping the aid for themselves (and we know that the hasbara machine would do exactly that, because they have done it before). And she said that the aid has the blood of innocent people on it.

Another facebook friend who was heavily involved with the flotilla has said that if the government of Israel really wanted to hand over the aid, they could do it without giving it to Hamas. He said that they could easily give it to NGOs to bring to Gaza and distribute. He believes that Israel will not ever hand that aid to any NGOs. He was involved in raising a lot of money to supply the Rachel Corrie, and he says he doesn't think the people of Gaza will ever see the aid from that ship either, or from any future flotillas. But the flotillas will continue nevertheless.


03 Jun 10 - 11:01 AM (#2919762)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

If Israel really wanted Gaza to get aid, it would let the aid that is currently being offered (before the flotilla) get through. Making bogus rules about nutmeg shows what they really want is to subjugate. Gaza is a ghetto.


03 Jun 10 - 11:13 AM (#2919773)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Peace

`So I ask myself - if it were proposed that some indigenous population somewhere should be permanently displaced and dispossessed in order to create an exclusive state for the Gypsies, would I support that? And I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that I would not. In light of this, I now know that I cannot support the permanent displacement and dispossession of the Palestinians in order to provide Jews with an exclusive state of their own.`

North American native peoples would be very pleased to read that. In fact, your continued existence in North America speaks to the fact that you DO support the permanent displacement of previously existing peoples. As to who displaced who in the mid-East, check the history books.


03 Jun 10 - 11:23 AM (#2919782)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

There weren't a whole hell of a lot of European Jews in Palestine before the late 19th century. I checked the history books.

If Israel treated Palestine the way the US treats its indigenous peoples (which isn't great, I will admit) then the world would have a lot less opprobrium for Israel. If all the Indians in America were put in two reservations, one of which the whites kept shrinking and the other of which they kept in a perpetual state of poverty and disrepair by deliberately blocking aid (and nutmeg) from getting in from outside, then maybe your analogy would be interesting. As it is, it's facile.


03 Jun 10 - 11:30 AM (#2919788)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

"If Israel treated Palestine the way the US treats its indigenous peoples"

Well, it's arguably better now than it was during the period where the indigenous peoples were virtually exterminated by white settlers.

I'm sure no-body blames people innocently born on land violently seized and occupied by their forebears - no-body can bare responsibility for evils of the past - but I'd suggest we *are* all collectively responsible for the actions which our people/government/nation undertake on our behalf in the *present*.


03 Jun 10 - 12:03 PM (#2919801)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

My English Jewish friends (all descendants of Holocaust refugees) are ashamed of Israel. In fact they are the most angry "anti-Semitic" sounding voices I hear.

In the media, I've heard Jewish critics of Israel's behaviour "self-hating". It must be very troubling for people like my friends - those who see it as such - to witness echoes of the very same atrocities which their own grandparents escaped to England from, and then to be damned by their own people as a consequence of feeling that way.

I don't know, exactly what is it that makes the abuser, abuse? But it's even more perplexing on a collective scale.


03 Jun 10 - 12:06 PM (#2919802)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

EDIT: 'I've heard Jewish critics of Israel's behaviour LABELLED "self-hating".'


03 Jun 10 - 12:11 PM (#2919803)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

Sorry, that was something of a thread drift prompted by a conversation I had with a friend of mine yesterday.


03 Jun 10 - 12:18 PM (#2919806)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Who should I displace so that I might leave the US, PEACE? No matter where I go, I will be occupying someone else's land. I could just lay down and die, but I if I do that, I will be of no help to anyone. If I remain where I am and work to try to correct iniquities (even those being carried out against the native peoples of this country), I can make a difference.

I actually support the Native American movement to take back sovereignty of this country.

So spare my your hypocrisy, PEACE.


03 Jun 10 - 12:24 PM (#2919809)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

And by the way, most Israeli archaeologists and historians accept as fact that the European Jews have no historical or ancestral ties to the Middle East, whatever. None. Zip. Nada. I do not dispute the legitimacy of the presence of the Mizrahim. But the European Jews have no legitimate claim to that land whatever.

Having said that, I have not suggested forcing the European Jews to leave Israel. I am saying that all of the Palestinian refugees and their descendants have a right to return to their homes or as close as they can get to what was their homes before they were driven out, and the government should not have a specifically Jewish character. It's character should be neutral with regard to any particular ethnic group.


03 Jun 10 - 12:31 PM (#2919810)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05bo1xh1JDo


03 Jun 10 - 12:53 PM (#2919821)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

CarolC writes: "all of the Palestinian refugees and their descendants have a right to return to their homes".

It seems so reasonable. Many of my friends say the same thing. BUT. If we would adopt this idea for the many peoples in the World and in Europe that had to move away from their land and support projects of return, we would set much of the world ablaze. Much of Europe, at least.

We can't support Jews projects of return to what no doubt was their homeland before the Romans drove them away. We can't support the Palestinian in a similar idea. We must support the idea of giving both people, two peoples they are, their land and state. Dear CarolC, I don't like no religion, but today I must face the fact that at least for a long long time, not necessarely for ever and ever, one will be a state with a strong Jewish character, and the other a state with a strong Muslim character. In the first case, I must say that Israel has been able for a period to manage being the Jewish state and a laical state as well and the only democracy in the area. I hope the other state will emancipate from being a theocracy. But they can't be a single state, not now, in this very period of history, if we want to consider real situation and not only our ideas.


03 Jun 10 - 01:04 PM (#2919827)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

That is a thoughtful post, Roberto. But if you support a permanent Jewish majority in Israel, then you also support discrimination and ethnic cleansing of those in Israel who are not Jewish.

The Palestinians have a right to return to their areas of origin under international law and United Nations resolutions. Preventing them from doing so it a crime.

If the Palestinians in occupied Palestine decide that they would prefer a state of their own, I don't think it is my place to argue with them about that. But the Palestinian Israelis will still be facing discrimination and ethnic cleansing in Israel, and I can't support that.


03 Jun 10 - 01:05 PM (#2919831)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

"We can't support Jews projects of return to what no doubt was their homeland before the Romans drove them away. We can't support the Palestinian in a similar idea."

Surely no group can sensibly refer to supposed land rights from a Millenium or two ago?


03 Jun 10 - 01:10 PM (#2919835)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

1923- The treaty ending WW I created the states in the area- INCLUDING a Jewish Homeland.

Since some here think this does not matter , why don't we invalidate the other nations created at that time, by that treaty?

No more Syria, Lebenon, Iraq, Jordan, etc.

Or is it just Jews that get the shaft?


03 Jun 10 - 01:16 PM (#2919839)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: kendall

If the Israelis planted anything on that ship, seems to me it would be weapons, not gas masks and body armor.

Were any weapons found?


03 Jun 10 - 01:17 PM (#2919841)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Jews can have a homeland without having an exclusive state, beardedbruce.


03 Jun 10 - 01:19 PM (#2919843)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

So you agree that the ARAB Palestinian Homeland formed from that same Mandate should be disolved, and Jews allowed to settle there?


03 Jun 10 - 01:19 PM (#2919844)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

By the way, the Romans didn't drive away the European Jews, because the European Jews' ancestors never lived in the Middle East.

Kendall, no weapons were found.


03 Jun 10 - 01:20 PM (#2919845)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Sure, beardedbruce. I think Jews should be able to live wherever they want. As long as they live there as equal citizens and not as occupiers or colonialists.


03 Jun 10 - 01:25 PM (#2919853)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

Than you disagree with all the Moslim countries, whio have laws against that.


03 Jun 10 - 01:26 PM (#2919855)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Show me the laws, beardedbruce. And not from a Zionist source. Show me the laws from sources that represent the governments in question.


03 Jun 10 - 01:27 PM (#2919857)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke

1923- The treaty ending WW I created the states in the area- INCLUDING a Jewish Homeland.

The Palestinians (some at least of whom had fought on the Allied side in WWI) were not consulted on this, since they were merely darkish people who happened to be in the way.


03 Jun 10 - 01:29 PM (#2919858)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

"why don't we invalidate the other nations created at that time, by that treaty?

No more Syria, Lebenon, Iraq, Jordan, etc."


03 Jun 10 - 01:31 PM (#2919860)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

We should let the indigenous peoples of the Middle East decide how their region should be configured in terms of nations and boundaries. It's none of our f*cking business how they configure their region.


03 Jun 10 - 01:33 PM (#2919862)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens

But the trouble is they don't seem to be agreeing how precisely they should configure it. As I think we have all noticed for many years.


03 Jun 10 - 01:34 PM (#2919864)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

That's not any of our business, Greg.


03 Jun 10 - 01:37 PM (#2919869)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq

"Jews can have a homeland without having an exclusive state..." ~ CarolC

Muslims are about 40% of the population of Israel. Claiming that the Jewish state excludes them is wrong.

"...the Romans didn't drive away the European Jews, because the European Jews' ancestors never lived in the Middle East." ~ CarolC

Jews lived in Russia and Europe for centuries but they still have ancestry that goes back to the Holy Land.


03 Jun 10 - 01:41 PM (#2919872)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

pdq, do you consider Israel to be "the Jewish State"?

And if it's not, why aren't the Palestinians who were driven from their homes allowed to return?

The majority of Israeli archaeologists and historians agree and accept as fact that the European Jews originated from a Turkic people who had an empire in central Europe during the Middle Ages, and that they all converted to Judaism en mass, when their emperor did. They never lived in the Middle East.


03 Jun 10 - 01:43 PM (#2919875)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

"but they still have ancestry that goes back to the Holy Land."

Mmm, many Americans claim ancestry that goes back to the UK, maybe English people aught to be barricaded into Cornwall, so you'ze all can 'come home'?


03 Jun 10 - 01:50 PM (#2919880)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewMGq11wQFI&feature=player_embedded


03 Jun 10 - 01:58 PM (#2919883)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke

The majority of Israeli archaeologists and historians agree and accept as fact that the European Jews originated from a Turkic people who had an empire in central Europe during the Middle Ages

Probably only partly true at most. There was such a tribe (the Khazars); it's doubtful if they contributed much to the Jewish gene pool in the long term though.

On the other hand, it's pretty certain that many Palestinians are descended from Jews of Holy Land times. It's also true, but conveniently forgotten by Zionist enthusiasts, that it was the Islamic Ottoman Empire that gave refuge to Sephardic Jews from Spain after Ferdibella and the Inquisition expelled them, and to Jewish refugees from Bavaria a little before that. Jews had considerable freedom, and self- governing status, until the decline of that empire brought Western- style racial nationalism to Turkey.


03 Jun 10 - 02:03 PM (#2919884)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Paul, I've already provided more than ample documentation from Israeli sources for this assertion right here in the Mudcat. It happens to be true. There is little to no dispute among Israeli archaeologists and historians that the European Jews are descended from the Khazars. This is accepted as fact by the majority of Israeli archaeologists and historians.

This is simply not in dispute to any significant degree.

On another note...

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65222L20100603


03 Jun 10 - 02:15 PM (#2919890)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRZi2jOqRho


03 Jun 10 - 02:17 PM (#2919892)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq

"The history of Khazaria presents us with a fascinating example of how Jewish life flourished in the Middle Ages. In a time when Jews were persecuted thruout Christian Europe, the kingdom of Khazaria was a beacon of hope. Jews were able to flourish in Khazaria because of the tolerance of the Khazar rulers, who invited Byzantine and Persian Jewish refugees to settle in their country. Due to the influence of these refugees, the Khazars found the Jewish religion to be appealing and adopted Judaism in large numbers.

Most of the available information about the Khazars comes from Arabic, Hebrew, Armenian, Byzantine, and Slavic sources, most of which are reliable. There is also a large quantity of archaeological evidence concerning the Khazars which illuminates multiple aspects of the Khazarian economy (arts and crafts, trade, agriculture, fishing, etc.) as well as burial practices.

(Origins) The Khazars were a Turkic1 people who originated in Central Asia..."


03 Jun 10 - 02:25 PM (#2919902)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

"Muslims are about 40% of the population of Israel. Claiming that the Jewish state excludes them is wrong."

INCORRECT

As of December 2009. Of the 7.5 million inhabitants of Israel 75.4% of them were Jewish (about 5,660,700 individuals), 20.3% were Arabs (About 1,523,900 inhabitants), while the remaining 4.3% (about 319,200 individuals) were defined as "others"

About 35% of all Israeli Jews are recently (first or second generation) descended from European Jews

Most Arab citizens of Israel are Muslim, particularly of the Sunni branch of Islam, and there is a significant Arab Christian minority from various denominations, as well as Arab Druze, among other religious communities.



Israeli Arabs have generally remained moderate throughout the years; they have enjoyed the benefits of an advanced economy, but they suffer serious discrimination in housing, access to resources and political representation.

However, as has been observed
"The fear of ethnic cleansing among the Arabs of Israel is real and growing. The current Israeli government is reinforcing this fear implicitly by requiring this vulnerable community to become even more compliant, with recent discussions of the need for a loyalty oath.

Furthermore, Foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman has introduced legislation, clearly targeting the Arab community, which if passed would "revoke citizenship or permanent status from any person convicted of terrorist activity or of espionage on behalf of a terrorist organization".
Is there a legitimate reason to apply more pressure on the most moderate Arab community in the Middle East? Such moves will only generate radicals. Israel needs more allies, not adversaries."


In 2001, Human Rights Watch issued a report that stated: "Government-run Arab schools are a world apart from government-run Jewish schools. In virtually every respect, Palestinian Arab children get an education inferior to that of Jewish children, and their relatively poor performance in school reflects this."
The report found striking differences in virtually every aspect of the education system

According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the occupied territories, "Israeli Arabs were underrepresented in the student bodies and faculties of most universities and in higher professional and business ranks.

The Bureau of Statistics noted that the median number of school years for the Jewish population is 3 years more than for the Arab population. Well educated Arabs often were unable to find jobs commensurate with their level of education.

The 2007 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices notes that According to a 2005 study at Hebrew University, three times more money was invested in education of Jewish children as in Arab children."


According to The Guardian, in 2006 just 5% of civil servants were Arabs, many of them hired to deal with other Arabs, despite the fact that Arab citizens of Israel comprise 20% of the population.[


Hostility to intimate relationships developing across Israel's ethnic divide is shared by many Israeli Jews, who regard such behaviour as a threat to the state's Jewishness. One of the few polls on the subject, in 2007, found that more than half of Israeli Jews believed intermarriage should be equated with "national treason".

Since the state's founding in 1948 a series of legal and administrative measures have been taken by Israel to limit the possibilities of close links developing between Jewish and Arab citizens.

As civil marriage is banned in Israel, in the small number of cases where Jews and Arabs want to wed, they can do so only by leaving the country for a ceremony abroad. The marriage is recognised on the couple's return.

However Israel's Parliament has passed a law preventing Palestinians who marry Israelis from living in Israel.
Israeli Arabs who marry Palestinians from the West Bank or Gaza Strip will either have to move to the occupied territories, or live apart from their husband or wife. Their children will be affected too: from the age of 12 they will be denied citizenship or residency and forced to move out of Israel.


03 Jun 10 - 02:25 PM (#2919903)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke

Carol:

Just one example of the contrary view, with a summary of DNA evidence.

That the Eastern European Jews were not mainly descended from Khazars is evidenced by the simple fact that they spoke German, also known as Yiddish (I'm very sad to have to write that in the past tense).

But that has nothing to do with whether Israelis (or Somalis) are allowed to attack ships in international waters and kidnap the ship's complement. Or that collective punishments are a breach of international law. Or that if you want peace, you'd better start being just.


03 Jun 10 - 02:33 PM (#2919912)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

Emma B.

And the statistics for the Arab nations? How do they treat their Jewish populations?

How have the Minority populations on each side increased/decreased since 1948?


03 Jun 10 - 02:38 PM (#2919915)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

"That the Eastern European Jews were not mainly descended from Khazars is evidenced by the simple fact that they spoke German,.." etc.

With respect to those discussing the matter of genetics, this is a substantial side issue. The question surely is whether or not (even were such a claim to such ancestry substantiated) current treatment of Palestinians is reasonable based on such supposed ancestral claims. Or am I missing something?


03 Jun 10 - 02:39 PM (#2919916)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

There's quite a lot to work with, but here's a sample...

"Wexler argues from linguistic and other evidence "that the Ashkenazic Jews must have consisted of a mix of Greek, Balkan Romance and Balkan Slavic, Germano-Slavic and Turkic (Khazar, Avar) converts to Judaism and their descendants and only a minority of ethnic Jews—many of whom in all probability came from other parts of Europe rather than Palestine itself." Wexler rejects the Khazar mass migration hypothesis on linguistic grounds, arguing that there was more conversion in place than migration. "Hence, contemporary Judaism is best defined not as the continuation of the Judaism which served as an antecedent of Christianity and Islam, but as a newly Judaized variant of European (mainly Slavic) paganism and Christianity…most of the features of Old Palestinian Judaism and Semitic Hebrew to be found in Ashkenazic 'Judaism' and Medieval Ashkenazic/Modern Israeli 'Hebrew' were latter borrowings rather than original inheritance [original emphasis]." This thesis has been obscured by philo-German and anti-Slavic chauvinism among scholars, Jewish and non-, of Ashkenazi Jewry, by disciplinary blinders, and by inertia."

http://theglobalrealm.com/2010/02/06/the-invention-of-the-jewish-people/

A couple of years ago, I provided a synopsis of Schlomo Sands' book on this subject and another mudcatter provided what they apparently thought was a rebuttal of Sands' main thesis, but when I read the review, its main problem with Sands' work was that he seemed to think he was breaking new ground, and they were saying that what he had published was already common knowledge among Israeli academics. I'll try to find that one.


03 Jun 10 - 02:40 PM (#2919917)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

The above linked article also addresses the genetics issue.


03 Jun 10 - 02:48 PM (#2919921)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydAGnTo4KJo


03 Jun 10 - 02:48 PM (#2919922)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6

I thought a Jew was someone of the Jewish religion ... genetics is not a matter of religion.

this thread is evolving into lunacy. But then I suspected it would from the beginning.

biLL


03 Jun 10 - 02:52 PM (#2919923)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Well, number6, I think there are a lot of Jews who feel differently than you about that. I happen to disagree with them also.


03 Jun 10 - 02:54 PM (#2919924)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq

When the West Bank and Gaza are included, the Muslim population is 40.1% and Jews just over 50%.

When driven out of the Holy Land about 2000 years ago, Jews went to every corner of Europe and started new lives. Saying that European Jews are mostly of Turic descent is just plain silly.

Calling Israel the Jewish State in quite common among Jews but probably disliked by Muslims.

Muslims are officially a majority in 48 countries and hugely influential in 20-30 more. The Jews got a puny piece of land, Muslims got 400 times as much land. The unhappy ones should find a new place to live.


03 Jun 10 - 02:58 PM (#2919927)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6

Well Carol, Some do ... and some don't.

Digging into genetics we would be surprised to find that we are very much all the same.

biLL


03 Jun 10 - 02:58 PM (#2919928)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

What would the world look like if the diaspora of all the worlds races reclaimed those lands that they once occupied two thousand years ago?


03 Jun 10 - 02:59 PM (#2919929)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

The Jews were not driven out of the Holy Land about 2000 years ago. The descendants of those Jews are still there in the form of Christians, Muslims, and Jews.

When the West Bank and Gaza are included, the Muslim population is 40.1% and Jews just over 50%.

How many of the Muslims (or Christians) in the West Bank and Gaza have Israeli citizenship, pdq? How many of them are allowed to participate in Israeli politics?


03 Jun 10 - 03:00 PM (#2919930)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

The America's would certainly look a bit different for starters. I wonder where the current European descendants would be housed? Alaska?


03 Jun 10 - 03:51 PM (#2919953)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic

There's a book about the theory of Khazar Jewish antecedents. "The Thirteenth Tribe" by Arthur Koestler.

1) Koestler wasn't a historian
2) The book had negiligible historical data to fall back on and is a classic case of the undergraduate student thesis having a pivotal couple of chapters padded out with commonly perceived history (what we would euphemistically call 'extensive backgrounding')
3) Koestler had a lot of hypothesis and conditionally framed sentences and paragraphs. He had very little that was solid in there.
4) Koestler explicitly stated that the Khazar theories should not be used as evidence pror or con Israel's right to exist as a UN recognized State.
5) There was some other stuff in there about racial perceptions which was not historical but very much Koestler.


03 Jun 10 - 04:09 PM (#2919967)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I guess it's a good thing for my arguments that I'm relying on the majority of archaeologists and historians in Israel and not on Arthur Koestler, then, robomatic.

That was a very strange non-sequitur and straw man argument you gave just then. Did you really think I was stupid enough to fall for it?


03 Jun 10 - 04:24 PM (#2919980)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/3/huwaida


03 Jun 10 - 05:01 PM (#2920002)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

I noticed in that list of stuff prohibited from being taken into Gaza that it includes musical instruments.

Logical enough, I suppose - after all, as Woody Guthrie wrote on his guitar "This machine kills fascists".


03 Jun 10 - 05:09 PM (#2920008)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens

Are you sure you've got this right? The Khazars were nice to the Jews, who therefore went to live with them. The Khazars then all converted to Judaism. The Jews then all died out, and the Khazars turned into the European Jews, who therefore had no right to go back to Israel. Well, I can think of several queries, but the main one is this: if the Khazars were so nice to them, how come all the Jews died.
The other query is: are you absolutely sure that all Israeli archaeologists believe this?


03 Jun 10 - 05:32 PM (#2920029)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I think you should go back and read what I've said again, greg. You are mischaracterizing what I said rather liberally.


03 Jun 10 - 05:35 PM (#2920031)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

In answer to your question, though the Jews didn't all go to where the Khazars lived. The Khazar emperor converted to Judaism and his subjects all converted to Judaism along with him. Those Jews didn't all die out. Their descendants are the Ashkenazim - the European Jews of today.


03 Jun 10 - 05:38 PM (#2920033)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Are all of you guys coordinating how you're going to come at me to try to poke holes in what I say? The way you do it is so predictable from one thread on this subject to another. You always do it the same way, and you almost always say the same things or use the same methods. Are you all working for the hasbara people?


03 Jun 10 - 05:44 PM (#2920037)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq

"The Khazar emperor converted to Judaism and his subjects all converted to Judaism along with him." ~ CarolC

Please support that claim.

And you know that all converted? Not even 12 that didn't? How about a few hundred? A few thousand? Perhaps most?


03 Jun 10 - 05:47 PM (#2920040)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke

Carol: it's very simple.

(1) We (most of us) are very much opposed to the Israeli state's actions of the last few days.
(2) The origin of European Jews, while interesting, is not very relevant to that.
(3) However, since you brung it up, some of us think your version is a bit controversial.
(4) Let's talk about that stuff later.


03 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM (#2920043)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Ok. In a minute.


On another note...

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/2/israels_explanation_for_deadly_gaza_aid


03 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM (#2920044)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Paul, I didn't bring it up. PEACE did.


03 Jun 10 - 05:52 PM (#2920047)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

And by the way, you really can't separate that subject out from Israel's behavior towards the indigenous peoples of the Middle East, because Israel and many, many diaspora Jews use that very thing as their central argument for what gives them the right to behave in that way.


03 Jun 10 - 06:12 PM (#2920057)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Here you go, pdq...

"The Himyar and Berber proselytes are overshadowed by the Khazars, who ruled from the fourth century, along the Volga, and in the eastern Ukraine, the Crimean peninsula and modern Georgia. The Silk Road and the Don and Volga gave the kingdom a rich and flourishing trade, and means for a powerful army. While the "spoken Khazar language consisted of Hunnic-Bulgarian dialects with others from the Turkic family," "[t]here is no doubt…that the Khazars' sacred tongue and written communication was Hebrew." The Khazars converted over time between the mid-eighth and mid-ninth centuries, and for the same reason "that accounted for Himyar's conversion…[t]he desire to remain independent in the face of mighty, grasping empires…Had the Khazars adopted Islam…they would have become subjects of the caliph. Had they remained pagan, they would have been marked for annihilation by the Muslims…Christianity, of course, would have subjected them to the Eastern Empire." Conversion began with the elite and included the larger population over time. Khazar Judaism was substantially rabbinical, though Kairate Judaism, a Protestant-like sect which regards the Hebrew Bible as solely authoritative, may have flourished also."

http://theglobalrealm.com/2010/02/06/the-invention-of-the-jewish-people/

By the way, the Khazars are not the only non-Jewish population that converted en mass to Judaism. There are others did as well, and they are discussed in that article. So many of the other Jews who are migrating to Israel also do not have Middle Eastern origins.


03 Jun 10 - 06:37 PM (#2920076)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq

"...many of the other Jews who are migrating to Israel also do not have Middle Eastern origins." ~ CarolC

Fine, but you stared that all Khazars converted to Judaism. Some did, some did not.

You implied that nearly all European Jews were of non-Semitic origin. Also not the case.

This is all part of a carefully-written scam. An attempt to say that European Jews do not belong in the Jewish State when they do.

Besides, how many countries exist by popular decree of the United Nations.

As far as who comes to Israeal fter the majority of the world's nations recognized it, well, it's nobody else's buisness but the Israelis.


03 Jun 10 - 07:01 PM (#2920091)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"An attempt to say that European Jews do not belong in the Jewish State when they do."

No, a succesful and consistent demonstration that there is no historical precedent which entitled European Jews to evict and replace palestinians.


03 Jun 10 - 07:34 PM (#2920106)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

What possible difference does it make if European Jews are descended from Turkic Khazars or from people who loived in the Holy Land two thousand years ago?

In neither came does it give them any right to displace the people who were living there when they immigrated.

Even in a literalistic reading of the Old Testament, in which the country was supposed to be gifted permanently to the descendants of Abraham, that would include Arabs every bit as much as Jews.


03 Jun 10 - 07:52 PM (#2920118)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

McGrath you are 100% right.

Unfortunately this point is a stumbling block in debates about Israel/Palestine.

It is helpful to be able to clearly distinguish and identify red herrings so that we no longer have to waste time chasing them when they are repeatedly thrown in to the mix.


03 Jun 10 - 09:05 PM (#2920178)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

pdq, the Ashkenazim do not have any ties to the Middle East. The article I posted says that also. The Khazars did convert en mass. They had good reason to do so, because becoming Jewish was their ticket to having a better life than they would have if they didn't. It's all spelled out pretty clearly in the article. None of the article disputes anything I've said, and it's all very much in keeping with accepted common knowledge among Israeli academics. The carefully written scam is the one what you have been taught to believe. You should read that whole article. You've been fed a pack of lies your whole life.


03 Jun 10 - 09:07 PM (#2920180)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

...the one that you have been taught to believe


03 Jun 10 - 09:36 PM (#2920189)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Here's some more background on that subject...

http://mideastfacts.org/facts/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=32&Itemid=34

http://themagneszionist.blogspot.com/2007/07/no-rivkele-there-wasnt-roman-exile-of.html

Paul Burke describes this accepted knowledge as controversial. It may be in countries like the US and the UK, but it is not regarded as being at all controversial in Israel.


03 Jun 10 - 10:25 PM (#2920210)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic

Carol C wrote:
I guess it's a good thing for my arguments that I'm relying on the majority of archaeologists and historians in Israel and not on Arthur Koestler, then, robomatic.

What you're relying on is a link. Ain't nothin' there any more solid than Koestler's little book which was not anything like solid. You are relying on your standard tactics of locating links that agree with you and leaning on them HEAVILY. and little else other than slamming your tired tactics out again and again.

But that's okay. Been there, done that with you before! And will again!


03 Jun 10 - 11:10 PM (#2920236)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Looks to me like you haven't even bothered to read what was in the links, robomatic. And by the way, I didn't just post a link. I posted a link with information inside of it. And it's a hell of a lot more than Koestler, so we can all see that now you are just lying. Which doesn't really surprise me, since all you hasbaratchiks have to work with is lies.


04 Jun 10 - 12:44 AM (#2920266)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

What was this thread about, again?


04 Jun 10 - 01:33 AM (#2920281)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

It was about this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swg-nFZS6so

http://gazaflotillasurvivors.posterous.com/attack-came-in-three-phases-says-survivor-abb

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2010/06/putting-names-to-faces.html

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2010/06/03/mary-hughes-thompson-free-gaza-co-founder-flotilla-update-from-cyprus/

http://aliabunimah.posterous.com/did-israel-try-to-assassinate-sheikh-raed-sal


04 Jun 10 - 02:26 AM (#2920294)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cQ69oKFtVg&feature=player_embedded


04 Jun 10 - 02:39 AM (#2920298)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

CC: "many diaspora Jews use that very thing as their central argument for what gives them the right to behave in that way."

While Jewish people might *call upon* ancient historic ties to this land as a justification for inhumanitarian actions against the present indigenous peoples, any such call - irrespective of whether or not it might be provable - simply *doesn't* justify it.

It's a moot point.


04 Jun 10 - 02:59 AM (#2920302)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Unfortunately it's not a moot point, because they are able to garner a lot of support, much of it political support, and raise a lot of funds here in the US using that argument, and these are two things that make it much easier for them to be able to keep on doing what they've been doing, and much more difficult for anyone else to get them to stop.


04 Jun 10 - 03:28 AM (#2920312)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens

Could we be spared these Khazars? All we need now are the Knights Templar, the Illuminati and a few Cathars.


04 Jun 10 - 03:29 AM (#2920313)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

CC "it's not a moot point, because they are able to garner a lot of support, much of it political support, and raise a lot of funds here in the US using that argument,"

For the sake of this incident I think it's a moot point, though I totally get what your saying. However many people may use it, and however powerful or influential they may be, they are still wrong to try to do so. No amount of supposed ancient ancestral ties to a land, can justify abusing innocent people.

That's like you saying to me 'Once upon a time, my great great great granny probably lived in your village in England. So it's fine for me to come over there, kick you out of your house, and starve and beat you.' You could come up with documents that PROVE your great great great granny once lived in my village, but it wouldn't make any difference. I guess many people would simply disagree with that though.


04 Jun 10 - 03:38 AM (#2920319)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

Aaagh! I'm causing more thread drift!
Think I'll quit it there...


04 Jun 10 - 03:42 AM (#2920321)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

However many people may use it, and however powerful or influential they may be, they are still wrong to try to do so.

I don't disagree with this.


04 Jun 10 - 05:22 AM (#2920354)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens

Crow Sister: you may say that rights to the land should not be able to be enforced 2000 years on. The trouble is, these 2000 year old bits of history are absoultely part of the present day politics. Israeli attitudes to Jerusalem in the time of David and Solomon, and Palestinian attitudes to the same areas of land, and Islamic attitudes to the Dome of the Rock, are all current realities. They are not just history, however much you would like to wish them away by rational thought.


04 Jun 10 - 05:31 AM (#2920355)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"They are not just history, however much you would like to wish them away by rational thought."

They are red herrings which distract us from the real issues.

They are also based on mythology and heavily distorted historical sources.

It would be like the Irish claiming to have a right to rule America as St Brendan was the first European to get there.

A Red Herring, not provable and not even the most likely course of events.


04 Jun 10 - 06:06 AM (#2920365)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I've been seeing reports that one of the kidnapped aid workers managed to hide three memory chips with video of what happened in her underwear and will be releasing them today. I don't know if these reports are credible, but I'll post more as I find out.


04 Jun 10 - 06:15 AM (#2920373)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

This is tangentially related because it happened at one of the many demonstrations against the flotilla massacre...

http://palsolidarity.org/2010/05/12604/


Not one peep that I could find about it in the US mainstream media, either.


04 Jun 10 - 06:19 AM (#2920379)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""Muslims are officially a majority in 48 countries and hugely influential in 20-30 more. The Jews got a puny piece of land, Muslims got 400 times as much land. The unhappy ones should find a new place to live.""

Translate that, if you will, to men with guns and international power coming to where you live and saying "we are relocating these victims of persecution, and your land has been chosen. They will not merely live within your community, they will rule it, and if you don't like it you can go live with relatives or friends elsewhere".

How would you feel about that?

Then imagine that these newcomers began to expand into larger and larger ares of your land, and pushed you back into the least productive corner, then set about starving you out.

I strongly believe you would be out in the street with an AK 47 too.

That is the situation in Palestine, and no amount of spin will change it.

Don T.


04 Jun 10 - 06:24 AM (#2920380)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

U.S. Jewish student loses eye at roadblock protest


04 Jun 10 - 06:28 AM (#2920382)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""This is all part of a carefully-written scam. An attempt to say that European Jews do not belong in the Jewish State when they do.""

There's that blatant misrepresentation of fact again.

The state is ISRAEL. It's citizens are ISRAELIS.

Some Israelis are of the Jewish faith, and some are not.

There is no such country as "The Jewish State". IT DOES NOT EXIST

Can we now continue to discuss the act of PIRACY committed by the ISRAELI GOVERNMENT?

Don T.


04 Jun 10 - 07:06 AM (#2920392)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Arnie

It will be interesting to see if any lessons have been learned when the aid vessel mv Rachel Corrie reaches Gazan waters on Saturday. The Israelis have vowed to intercept it, but have promised that they will act politely. That probably means using rubber bullets instead of live ammunition! My mother is of Jewish descent and has told me that I'm entitled to reside in Israel - that's an offer I definitely will not be taking up.


04 Jun 10 - 07:15 AM (#2920395)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

I have no wish to divert this thread into detailed 'academic' byways or disputes again but just a brief comment about 'The Jewish state'

Der Judenstaat or The Jewish State is a book written by Theodor Herzl, later hailed as the founder of the Zionist movement, published in 1896 in Leipzig and Vienna in which he describes in detail his vision of a Jewish state.

It is interesting that Herzl opposed the efforts already made by Zionist groups to settle Jews in Ottoman-controlled Palestine, arguing that
"important experiments in colonization have been made, though on the mistaken principle of a gradual infiltration of Jews.
An infiltration is bound to end badly.
It continues till the inevitable moment when the native population feels itself threatened,"
Quoted from The Jewish State, translated by Sylvie d'Avigdor, Nutt, London, 1896, and reprinted by Dover, 1988)

His last literary work Altneuland envisioned a Jewish state which combined both a modern Jewish culture with the best of the European heritage

Herzl did not envision the Jewish inhabitants of the state being religious, but there would be much respect for religion in the public sphere.

He did not foresee any conflict between Jews and Arabs as all non-Jews have equal rights, and an attempt by a fanatical rabbi to disenfranchise the non-Jewish citizens of their rights fails in the election which is the center of the main political plot of the novel
He directed his wrath against the nationalist party which wished to make the Jews a privileged class in Palestine.

Herzl regarded that as a betrayal of Zion, for Zion was identical to him with humanitarianism and tolerance

He also assumed that many languages would be spoken, but Hebrew would not be the main tongue. Proponents of a Jewish cultural rebirth, such as Ahad Ha'am were critical of Altneuland.



The terms a 'Jewish State' and the 'State of Israel' are frequently used interchangeably including in the November 1947, the United Nations General Assembly resolution outlining the 'Future Constitution and Government of Palestine'

"Hereby declare the establishment of a Jewish state in the land of Israel to be known as the State of Israel. …Israel will be open for Jewish immigration and for the "Ingathering of the Exiles"


04 Jun 10 - 07:29 AM (#2920398)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

The spirit of Herzl lives on in modern Israel


04 Jun 10 - 07:44 AM (#2920402)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

Rationalizing homicidal aggression

By John Robson, The Ottawa CitizenJune 4, 2010

One major lesson of history is that humans are frequently vile chumps. Unfortunately, because we are the audience as well as the topic, the lesson often fails to sink in.

I strongly suspect the same problem lies behind our frequent inability, or unwillingness, to draw obvious historical analogies. Presumably we all know exactly what to do the next time Hitler demands part of Czechoslovakia. But we nevertheless stare in bafflement, or worse, at North Korea or Hamas. Why?

Consider this luminous passage about appeasement I just encountered while rereading Peter Calvocoressi and Guy Wint's 1972 book Total War for a seminar I'm teaching on America at war. "Hitler's ravings," the authors say, "were passed over and he was regarded as a man who would make bargains and stick to them because it was difficult to see what to do if he was really a totally different kind of person."

Does this observation not shine a brilliant light on what's happening today, starting with Western regimes begging the Chinese government to help them do something about North Korea sinking a South Korean warship?

I would not say Western governments are completely unwilling to understand the North Korean regime. It is so evidently insane you just look stupid denying it. On the other hand, our would-be statesmen consistently insist that the correct response to any North Korean behaviour, comparatively tame or psychotically violent, is restraint by us. Is it not clear that the North Korean regime does not react well to restraint?

It may be objected with some justice that Pyongyang doesn't react well to anything, but, if it did, it wouldn't be to empty words or carefully harmless sanctions. That tyrannically insane government couldn't care less if the country's entire population starved to death, and they laugh at our reproaches. So what impact are mild sanctions or hollow condemnations meant to have? In short, Western policy toward North Korea is in substance (or lack thereof) driven by assumptions with nothing to recommend them except the difficulty of seeing what to do if they are unfounded.

When it comes to the People's Republic of China, the problem is considerably more acute because China is both stronger and less clearly insane (though Hitler was pretty obviously demented and people didn't let it affect their judgment that he was reasonable). But China is unlikely to be a useful partner in reining in North Korea because the Chinese are its strongest backer. And they are its strongest backer because....

Oh dear. How very many unpleasant ways there are of finishing that sentence and how few pleasant ones. So we assume that China's rulers have limited, reasonable geopolitical ambitions and a fundamentally peaceful diplomatic orientation not because anything they ever do supports that assumption, but because it is difficult to see what to do if they are really totally different kinds of people.

My ruminations on this disquieting subject earlier this week were rudely interrupted by the latest news that Israeli efforts to inspect a convoy headed for Gaza resulted in pacifists attacking IDF members with clubs, knives and guns and getting shot.

Now it is perfectly obvious that Israel is not going to permit uninspected cargoes to enter Gaza and it is obvious why: Gaza is ruled by Hamas, which is sworn not only to destroy Israel, but also to exterminate Jews. (See, again, Article 7 of the Hamas Charter, where rocks and trees erupt in anti-Semitic fury.) No one but Israel would ever be asked to let such an entity import uninspected cargoes for murderous purposes; not only would Canada not permit it under similar circumstances, but also we would not ask Syria to stand for it, or North Korea.

Admit it. If a convoy of activists insisted on bringing uninspected cargoes into North Korea, attacked customs officials who tried to inspect them and got killed, there would be no outcry. We'd soberly note that nations have a right to protect their borders, urge restraint, and perhaps make a grovelling submission to the Chinese government to help us persuade North Korea to shoot the next bunch with smaller calibre weapons.

So what's the deal with Hamas? Why does the press insist on running headlines like "After deadly raid, Israel stands alone" and "Israel's alliances hit the hardest" and "Bloody Israeli raid on flotilla sparks crisis"? I'll tell you. It's because Western diplomats, politicians and journalists pass over Hamas's ravings and members of the convoy chanting about Muhammad's army coming to kill Jews and insist on regarding Hamas as an organization that will make bargains and stick to them because it is very difficult to see what to do otherwise.

So what do we learn from history? So little that, if Hitler did demand the Sudetenland again, we'd probably give it to him.

John Robson's column appears weekly.
© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen


04 Jun 10 - 07:55 AM (#2920407)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"My ruminations on this disquieting subject earlier this week were rudely interrupted by the latest news that Israeli efforts to inspect a convoy headed for Gaza resulted in pacifists attacking IDF members with clubs, knives and guns and getting shot."

Except that there is no evidence that there were any knives or guns.

"Admit it. If a convoy of activists insisted on bringing uninspected cargoes into North Korea, attacked customs officials who tried to inspect them and got killed, there would be no outcry."

The activists and ships were inspected by customs officials in Turkey.

If there had been any attempt to attack Turkish or Israeli customs officials the flotilla would have loast all credibility.

So I for one will not agree with this bullshit assertion.

Lets see what US ambassador Edward Peck has to say on the subject ...

            Peck


04 Jun 10 - 07:59 AM (#2920408)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy

Does everyone understand the concept of 'going off at a tangent', that is, prevaricating on all sorts of associated issues leading away from the main topic [aka thread drift]?

********

For me [& I imagine lots others], the ultimate here & now situation is this:

Thousands of innocent civilians in the Gaza Strip are being starved of food, medical supplies & other items necessary to maintain a reasonable quality of life.

Attempts by aid orgs to alleviate the situation are being thwarted, confounded by the militaristic Israeli Empire builders [& I don't say that in any flippant or cynical way] who're backed by US & therefore can continue like this with the protection of Uncle Sam O'Bama & his govt.


Surely, we should be discussing & making suggestions as to how the situation can be addessed.

That's another 2pennyworth, I'll get me poncho!!


04 Jun 10 - 08:06 AM (#2920418)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Mr Happy, you are right.

Unfortunately, unless red herrings are caught and shown to be the irrelevant distractions that they are, they can always be used to bolster preconceptions and prejudices.

This can take time, but it is a chore that does have to be done.


04 Jun 10 - 08:25 AM (#2920428)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

re Rationalizing homicidal aggression
By John Robson, The Ottawa CitizenJune 4, 2010

This is John Robson, described as a 'conservative's conservative' writing for the Ottawa Citizen - part of the CanWest Global empire whose unconditional support for the Israeli governments actions and censorship of any dissenting journalistic view has been discussed elsewhere in this thread.

'nuff said!


04 Jun 10 - 08:31 AM (#2920435)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6

If the state of Israel was handed over to the Palestinians ... what would the outcome and fate be for the current Jewish inhabitants?

Would this Palestinian state be a democracy?

Curious as what everyone would answer to these questions?

biLL


04 Jun 10 - 08:39 AM (#2920440)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: freda underhill

CarolC, it was an Australian photographer, Kate Geraghty, who hid The photos they didn't want seen in her underwear:

"Four assault boats full of soldiers were chasing us and I knew they would board. I knew I just had to shoot as much as I could. With satellite communication jammed there was no way to transmit the images so I used gaffer tape to hide the micro SD cards on my body and in my clothes.

Most of the Israeli boats sped away but a Zodiac stopped beside our boat and the commandos boarded. I was knocked to the ground, perhaps by a stun gun. I got up and a soldier lunged towards me and snatched my camera. Despite numerous searches, including a strip search, I saved three cards. The Israelis found three in my clothing, but I hung on to the others - two on my body and one in some personal gear"

freda


04 Jun 10 - 08:51 AM (#2920449)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

Bill - are you referring to a 'one state solution' for Palentinians and Jews?

"Proponents of a binational solution to the conflict advocate a single state in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza Strip, with citizenship and equal rights in the combined entity for all inhabitants of all three territories, without regard to ethnicity or religion."
Wiki

Israeli opponents argue that one state would erode the notion of Israel as a Jewish state.
The main obstacle is the fact that demographic trends show the likelihood of a near-term majority Arab population west of the Jordan River (including the land within the internationally recognized borders of the state of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza).

Polls have shown that the probability that Palestinians would constitute an electoral majority in a binational state is seen by many Israeli Jews as a threat to the very premise of Israel, which is imagined as a state for the Jews

One-state solution a pipedream
Thought provoking, balanced article in the Jewish press by Ray Hanania (an Arab-American journalist also known for his stand-up comedy) who describes himself as a 'moderate Palestinian'


04 Jun 10 - 08:52 AM (#2920450)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy

Religion's not one've my religions, therefore I wait with baited breath to see world reaction to Rachel Corrie's progress, while strongly hoping, mentalising good wishes & bon voyage to the brave folks manning her [call it secular prayer?]


04 Jun 10 - 09:00 AM (#2920454)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6

Emma .... what I'm asking here is for posters to this thread what they would see as the outcome 'if' ... please no links, just your answers

or ... what you feel the solution would be to all of this, and what you foresee of the solution's outcome .. again please no ever ending links.

biLL


04 Jun 10 - 09:04 AM (#2920456)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

"This is John Robson, described as a 'conservative's conservative' writing for the Ottawa Citizen - part of the CanWest Global empire whose unconditional support for the Israeli governments actions and censorship of any dissenting journalistic view has been discussed elsewhere in this thread.

'nuff said!"

If you can't refute the content attack the source - weak and pathetic.


04 Jun 10 - 09:11 AM (#2920458)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: freda underhill

Haaretz, one of the two main papers in Israel, has articles with a lot of soul searching about Israel government knee-jerk responses in justifying the atrocities.
I too did not speak out


04 Jun 10 - 09:19 AM (#2920465)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: freda underhill

This is a very good article
about the legalities of what happened by Associate Professor Ben Saul of the Sydney Centre for International Law at The University of Sydney. Dr Saul teaches the law of armed conflict and has been involved in such cases in The Hague, the Israeli Supreme Court, and in the Balibo coronial inquest.


04 Jun 10 - 09:24 AM (#2920467)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

Just attempting to clarify No 6 what you actually meant by the rather disingenuous question

"If the state of Israel was handed over to the Palestinians?"

If you want my personal point of view then, it is somewhat in line with the article I linked
- which btw, I hoped would open up the discussion a little beyond simplistic and completely unrealistic (not to mention somewhat provocative sounding) 'what if' scenarios!

That is to say that, some time ago, I would have been on the side of a binational solution to the apparently intractable but accept that this is no longer a realitic proposal and would like to know more about the possibilitiy of a two state solution although the arguments for this from Blair, Bush, Condoleezza Rice etc don't particularly impress me

However, I will retain the right to reply as I please and not how you wish to 'dictate' Bill, without apology, and post the argument for by Noam Chomsky, PhD, Professor of Linguistics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, in a Mar. 30, 2004 ZNet interview which does convince me to this 'solution' at the present time.

"In the short term, the only feasible and minimally decent solution is along the lines of the international consensus that the US has unilaterally blocked for the last 30 years: a two-state settlement on the international border (green line), with 'minor and mutual adjustments,' in the terms of official US policy, though not actual policy after 1971...
Perhaps in the longer term, as hostility and fear subside and relations are more firmly developed along non-national lines, there will be a possibility of moving towards a federal version of binationalism, then perhaps on to closer integration, perhaps even to a democratic secular state
-- though it is far from obvious that that is the optimal arrangement for complex societies, there or elsewhere."


04 Jun 10 - 09:35 AM (#2920474)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

"If you can't refute the content attack the source - weak and pathetic."

I apply the same principle to being informed by the UK paper, The Daily Mail, that scores of Polish immigrants at various locations are trapping and BBQ'ing swans and that Christmas decorations have been banned so as not to offend non christians

Sorry for the 'aside' folks


04 Jun 10 - 10:10 AM (#2920489)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

Well Emma, here's another editorial from the same newspaper which, according to your criteria, is dismissible due to lack of cedibility.

They Shouldn't Have Been There

Israel's soldiers may have acted in self-defence, but boarding a flotilla of aid ships on the high seas violated international law

By Michael Byers, Citizen Special June 3, 2010 Comments (3)


Israel probably regrets its decision to interdict a flotilla of six ships from NATO countries. But instead of apologizing unconditionally, it argues that its soldiers were justified in using lethal force to defend themselves after they had boarded the Turkish-registered Mavi Marmara.

By focusing on this narrow issue, Israel is distracting attention away from the necessary, preliminary question of whether the soldiers had any right to be there in the first place, the answer to which turns on two different strands of international law.

Is the blockade legal?

The interdiction was intended to enforce the three-year long blockade of Gaza, a policy of questionable legality under international humanitarian law -- the so-called jus in bello governing the conduct of armed conflict.

The issue here is not whether blockades in general are legal, but whether this particular blockade -- which extends to most civilian goods and thus has serious affects on non-belligerents --goes too far.

Last year, the UN Human Rights Council asked Justice Richard Goldstone, the former chief prosecutor of the UN International Criminal Tribunals for the former Yugoslavia and for Rwanda, to investigate the matter.

Goldstone found that the blockade was a form of collective punishment directed against the population of Gaza, and thus a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention which Israel ratified in 1951.

Collective punishment is also prohibited under customary international law which applies even if, as Israel argues, it is no longer an occupying power in Gaza and therefore not constrained by the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Last November, UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon issued his own report, which also focused on the indiscriminate nature of the blockade and called for it to be lifted. He wrote: "In particular, the Government of Israel should allow unimpeded access to Gaza for humanitarian aid and the non-humanitarian goods needed for the reconstruction of properties and infrastructure."

If Goldstone and Ban are right, the Israeli blockade itself is illegal, and so, too, is any attempt to enforce it against ships carrying nothing more than humanitarian aid.

Does self-defence stretch this far?

Regardless of the legality of the blockade, Israel -- like all other countries -- has an inherent right of self-defence that is codified in Article 51 of the UN Charter. But the existence of this right does not mean that it extends to the use of force against foreign-flagged vessels in international waters when not carrying military supplies destined for a belligerent party.

Self-defence is an exception to the UN Charter's prohibition on the use or threat of force against the "territorial integrity or political independence" of nation-states. As an exception, the right of self-defence must be narrowly construed -- especially when it runs up against other, fundamental rights.

In international law, ships are treated as an extension of the territory of their state of registry. Beyond 12 nautical miles from shore, they exercise one of the oldest rights in international law, namely the freedom of navigation on the high seas.

Self defence is also limited by requirements of necessity and proportionality. For this reason, we must ask whether the Israel Defence Forces acted in a necessary and proportionate way in boarding the vessels -- before they came into contact with the passengers.

Israel has indicted ships in international waters before. In 2002, it seized the Karine A, a freighter in the Red Sea laden with 50 tons of Iranian-made weaponry. But Monday's incident was different, since nobody is suggesting that the ships were carrying munitions to Hamas.

Israeli officials have claimed that the flotilla was opening the floodgates for further blockade-breaking. But although there is legitimate debate about whether the right of self-defence extends to pre-emption, the causal links here are tenuous at best.

The threat was not "instant, overwhelming, leaving no choice of means, and no moment of deliberation" -- which is the centuries-old test for necessity.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says the Israeli soldiers boarded the ship to check it for weapons, but you do not board for this purpose by surprise in the dark of night.

The true motive for the interdiction was revealed by Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman last Friday, when he said that the aid mission was a "violent provocation" that his country was ready to stop "at any cost."

There were other options. Israel could have diplomatically engaged Turkey, arranged for a third party to verify the absence of munitions, and then peacefully escorted the flotilla to Gaza. Such an approach would have done more for its long-term security than this illegal action in support of an indiscriminate and therefore illegitimate blockade.

Michael Byers holds the Canada Research Chair in Global Politics and International Law at the University of British Columbia. In 2004, he was a visiting professor of law at the University of Tel Aviv.
© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/life/They+shouldn+have+been+there/3104730/story.html#ixzz0ptPetsJE


04 Jun 10 - 10:29 AM (#2920504)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy

Rachel Corrie news here:


Meanwhile, the MV Rachel Corrie aid ship is heading towards the coast of Gaza, aiming to break the Israeli blockade.

Activists on board told the BBC's Andrew North in Jerusalem by telephone that they were about 150 miles (240km) away and aimed to arrive just outside Israel's 20-mile (30km) exclusion zone off Gaza by Saturday morning.

They said there were 20 people on board, including five Irish nationals, six Malaysians and nine crew members.

One of the activists, former Nobel peace prize winner Mairead Corrigan Maguire, said their humanitarian aid shipment included cement and construction materials - items banned by Israel.

Israel has made it clear it will not allow the ship - named after a US college student who was crushed to death by an Israeli army bulldozer as she protested about house demolitions in Gaza - to dock in the Palestinian territory.

The Israeli government has instead offered to take the aid in by land, once it has checked there is nothing in the shipment that can be used for weapons.

********

Above excerpt from BBC here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10236884.stm


04 Jun 10 - 11:01 AM (#2920518)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

There is no such country as "The Jewish State". IT DOES NOT EXIST

Netanyahu, 2 June 2010: "The Jewish state has a right to defend itself"

"Jerusalem, Apr. 19 [2009] (ANI): The Palestinian Authority and the Hamas have rejected Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu's precondition for peace talks that the Palestinians recognize his country as a Jewish state."

Oh, whom to believe?


04 Jun 10 - 11:01 AM (#2920519)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger

It has become obvious that Israel is not about to engage in diplomatic relations with any country that opposes its policies. The old Ben-Gurion Zionism is dead. The new Zionism
is totalitarian and obtuse.

The US media is culpable for transmitting Israel's lies.

The Shas Party of Jewish Fundamentalists are in control of Likkud.

Israel is a theocracy.

Rahm Emanuel's father was a member of the Irgun.

Obama and Biden have been snowed by Israel. (Not to mention BP and Wall Street).

Disinvest in Israel now!


04 Jun 10 - 11:14 AM (#2920526)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

Israel has been a theocracy for some time.


04 Jun 10 - 11:24 AM (#2920535)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

number6, from all of the information I have, and I have a lot of information from people in Palestine, if Israel were to be handed to the Palestinians, all of the Jews who wanted to remain there would be able to and those who didn't want to remain there would be able to leave. It would be a democratic state.


04 Jun 10 - 11:36 AM (#2920543)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

bobad, it has been proven, both through testimonies, and through the videographic evidence, that the Israelis were not acting in self-defense, that they were the ones who attacked first, and that the ships' passengers were the ones who were acting in self-defense. So that's all the rebuttal that is needed to your editorials.

By the way, those paint pellets that the Israeli government is pretending were all innocent, were full of paint and and glass fragments. The glass fragments caused serious soft tissue damage.


04 Jun 10 - 11:56 AM (#2920551)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I don't remember if this was posted previously in this thread or not, but just in case it hasn't been, here it is...

Hamas renews offer to end fight if Israel withdraws


04 Jun 10 - 12:07 PM (#2920558)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

But I wouldn't trust Hamas any farther than I trust Israel, which has a lot to do with human-powered ballistics.


04 Jun 10 - 12:17 PM (#2920560)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Hamas has adhered to all of the ceasefires that it has agreed to including unilateral ones, mousethief. There is no reason not to trust Hamas. And whatever else you might want to say about them, their primary concern is the welfare of their people.


04 Jun 10 - 12:34 PM (#2920571)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

A bit more about Emily Henochowicz, the Jewish girl from America who lost her eye on Tuesday when Israeli police fired a teargas cylinder direct at protesters in Jerusalem.


04 Jun 10 - 12:37 PM (#2920575)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

"There is no reason not to trust Hamas. Their primary concern is the welfare of their people"

"If Israel were to be handed to the Palestinians, all of the Jews who wanted to remain there would be able to and those who didn't want to remain there would be able to leave. It would be a democratic state"

CarolC, whether you don't know what you are talking about, or you have political reasons to pretend you're blind. It is not a matter of different ideas, but of basic perception of the situation.


04 Jun 10 - 12:37 PM (#2920576)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

"Hamas has adhered to all of the ceasefires that it has agreed to including unilateral ones, mousethief. There is no reason not to trust Hamas. And whatever else you might want to say about them, their primary concern is the welfare of their people. "


Right. (sarcastic remark)


04 Jun 10 - 12:38 PM (#2920577)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

Hamas hasn't done a lot to stop rocket-launchers.


04 Jun 10 - 01:05 PM (#2920595)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

Oh well while it's ok to post newspaper articles in their entirity here is one from The Idependent**

Wednesday, 2 June 2010
"Of course, they were asking for it"
Mark Steel

It's time the Israeli government's PR team made the most of its talents, and became available for hire. Then whenever a nutcase marched into a shopping mall in somewhere like Wisconsin and gunned down a selection of passers-by, they could be on hand to tell the world's press "The gunman regrets the loss of life but did all he could to avoid violence."
Then various governments would issue statements saying "All we know is a man went berserk with an AK 47, and next to him there's a pile of corpses, so until we know the facts we can't pass judgement on what took place."

To strengthen their case the Israelis have released a photo of the weapons they found on board, (which amount to some knives and tools and wooden sticks) that the naive might think you'd expect to find on any ship, but the more astute will recognise as exactly what you'd carry if you were planning to defeat the Israeli army.
It's an armoury smaller than you'd find in the average toolshed in a garden in Cirencester, which goes to show the Israelis had better destroy Cirencester quickly as an essential act of self-defence.

It's a shame they weren't more imaginative, as they could have said "We also discovered a deadly barometer, a ship's compass, which could not only be frisbeed at someone's head but even had markings to help the assailant know which direction he was throwing it, and a set of binoculars that could easily be converted into a ray-gun."

That would be as logical as the statement from the Israeli PM's spokesman – "We made every possible effort to avoid this incident."

Because the one tiny thing they forgot to do to avoid this incident was not send in armed militia from helicopters in the middle of the night and shoot people.
I must be a natural at this sort of technique because I often go all day without climbing off a helicopter and shooting people, and I'm not even making every possible effort.

Politicians and commentators worldwide repeat a version of this line.
They're aware a nation has sent its militia to confront people carrying provisions for the desperate, in the process shooting several of them dead, and yet they angrily blame the dead ones.

One typical headline yesterday read "Activists got what they wanted – confrontation."
It's an attitude so deranged it deserves to be registered as a psychosis, something like "Reverse Slaughter Victim Confusion Syndrome".

Israel and its supporters claim that Viva Palestina, made up of people who collect the donated food, cement and items for providing basic amenities such as toilets, and transport them to Gaza, wanted the violence all along.
Because presumably they must have been thinking "Hezbollah couldn't beat them, but that's because unlike us they didn't have a ballcock and several boxes of plum tomatoes".

One article told us the flotilla was full of "Thugs spoiling for a confrontation", and then accused them of being "Less about aid and more about PR.
Indeed, on board was Swedish novelist Henning Mankell." So were they thugs or about PR? Did they have a thugs' section and a PR quarter, or did they all muck in, the novelist diverting the soldiers with his characterisation while the thugs attacked them with a lethal spirit level?

But some defenders of Israel are so blind to what happens in front of them there's nothing at all they wouldn't jump to defend. Israel could blow up a cats home and within five minutes they'd be yelling "How do we know the cats weren't smuggling semtex in their fur for Hamas?"

If this incident had been carried about by Iran, or anyone we were trying to portray as an enemy, so much condemnation would have been spewed out it would have created a vast cloud of outrage that airlines would be unable to fly through.

But as it's Israel, most governments offer a few diplomatic words that blame no one, but accept the deaths are "regrettable".
They might as well have picked any random word from the dictionary, so the news would tell us "William Hague described the deaths as 'hexagonal'", and a statement from the US senate said "It's all very confusing. In future let's hope they make every effort to avoid a similar incident."










one of the youngest UK national daily newspapers. The daily edition was named National Newspaper of the Year at the 2004 British Press Awards. Originally a broadsheet newspaper, since 2003 it has been published in a tabloid format. The Independent is regarded as leaning to the left politically, although it has not affiliated itself to any political party and a range of views can be found on its editorial and comment pages.


04 Jun 10 - 01:05 PM (#2920596)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5gowX__3_lydhbbod1bkCtlWMPf3g


04 Jun 10 - 01:07 PM (#2920597)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

btw The Independent is one of the youngest UK national daily newspapers.
The daily edition was named National Newspaper of the Year at the 2004 British Press Awards.
The Independent is regarded as leaning to the left politically, although it has not affiliated itself to any political party and a range of views can be found on its editorial and comment pages.
- Wiki


04 Jun 10 - 01:07 PM (#2920598)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

CarolC, whether you don't know what you are talking about, or you have political reasons to pretend you're blind. It is not a matter of different ideas, but of basic perception of the situation.

Roberto, it's quite obvious that I am far better informed than you are. Everything I have said is backed up with facts and evidence. You, apparently, have swallowed the propaganda.


04 Jun 10 - 01:12 PM (#2920604)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

mousethief, Hamas has done a lot to try to stop the rockets. Of course, it's efforts were hampered a bit when Israel massacred a couple of hundred of their police in the massacre of '08/'09. Kind of hard to keep order if all of your police have been blown to bits, and it seems like Israel must have wanted to make it difficult for Hamas to keep order, or they wouldn't have blown up all of those police. But all of that aside, what government has complete control of its people? The people who are firing the rockets are in opposition to Hamas, and they are doing it to undermine Hamas' efforts to bring a resolution to the situation. Hamas has adhered to every ceasefire they have agreed to, including the unilateral ones. This is a fact and is not disputable.


04 Jun 10 - 01:15 PM (#2920605)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

CarolC, your critical sense is so sharp when directed towards Israel and so dull when applied to Hamas. Far better informed: a self-appointed medal.


04 Jun 10 - 01:16 PM (#2920606)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Roberto, snipes are not arguments. They are the absence of an argument.


04 Jun 10 - 01:17 PM (#2920608)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

http://imeu.net/news/article0019152.shtml#1


04 Jun 10 - 01:22 PM (#2920611)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

Krauthammer: Those troublesome Jews


Charles Krauthammer
Friday, June 4, 2010

The world is outraged at Israel's blockade of Gaza. Turkey denounces its illegality, inhumanity, barbarity, etc. The usual U.N. suspects, Third World and European, join in. The Obama administration dithers.

But as Leslie Gelb, former president of the Council on Foreign Relations, writes, the blockade is not just perfectly rational, it is perfectly legal. Gaza under Hamas is a self-declared enemy of Israel -- a declaration backed up by more than 4,000 rockets fired at Israeli civilian territory. Yet having pledged itself to unceasing belligerency, Hamas claims victimhood when Israel imposes a blockade to prevent Hamas from arming itself with still more rockets.

In World War II, with full international legality, the United States blockaded Germany and Japan. And during the October 1962 missile crisis, we blockaded ("quarantined") Cuba. Arms-bearing Russian ships headed to Cuba turned back because the Soviets knew that the U.S. Navy would either board them or sink them. Yet Israel is accused of international criminality for doing precisely what John Kennedy did: impose a naval blockade to prevent a hostile state from acquiring lethal weaponry.

Oh, but weren't the Gaza-bound ships on a mission of humanitarian relief? No. Otherwise they would have accepted Israel's offer to bring their supplies to an Israeli port, be inspected for military materiel and have the rest trucked by Israel into Gaza -- as every week 10,000 tons of food, medicine and other humanitarian supplies are sent by Israel to Gaza.

Why was the offer refused? Because, as organizer Greta Berlin admitted, the flotilla was not about humanitarian relief but about breaking the blockade, i.e., ending Israel's inspection regime, which would mean unlimited shipping into Gaza and thus the unlimited arming of Hamas.

Israel has already twice intercepted ships laden with Iranian arms destined for Hezbollah and Gaza. What country would allow that?

But even more important, why did Israel even have to resort to blockade? Because, blockade is Israel's fallback as the world systematically de-legitimizes its traditional ways of defending itself -- forward and active defense.

(1) Forward defense: As a small, densely populated country surrounded by hostile states, Israel had, for its first half-century, adopted forward defense -- fighting wars on enemy territory (such as the Sinai and Golan Heights) rather than its own.

Where possible (Sinai, for example) Israel has traded territory for peace. But where peace offers were refused, Israel retained the territory as a protective buffer zone. Thus Israel retained a small strip of southern Lebanon to protect the villages of northern Israel. And it took many losses in Gaza, rather than expose Israeli border towns to Palestinian terror attacks. It is for the same reason America wages a grinding war in Afghanistan: You fight them there, so you don't have to fight them here.

But under overwhelming outside pressure, Israel gave it up. The Israelis were told the occupations were not just illegal but at the root of the anti-Israel insurgencies -- and therefore withdrawal, by removing the cause, would bring peace.

Land for peace. Remember? Well, during the past decade, Israel gave the land -- evacuating South Lebanon in 2000 and Gaza in 2005. What did it get? An intensification of belligerency, heavy militarization of the enemy side, multiple kidnappings, cross-border attacks and, from Gaza, years of unrelenting rocket attack.

(2) Active defense: Israel then had to switch to active defense -- military action to disrupt, dismantle and defeat (to borrow President Obama's description of our campaign against the Taliban and al-Qaeda) the newly armed terrorist mini-states established in southern Lebanon and Gaza after Israel withdrew.

The result? The Lebanon war of 2006 and Gaza operation of 2008-09. They were met with yet another avalanche of opprobrium and calumny by the same international community that had demanded the land-for-peace Israeli withdrawals in the first place. Worse, the U.N. Goldstone report, which essentially criminalized Israel's defensive operation in Gaza while whitewashing the casus belli -- the preceding and unprovoked Hamas rocket war -- effectively de-legitimized any active Israeli defense against its self-declared terror enemies.

(3) Passive defense: Without forward or active defense, Israel is left with but the most passive and benign of all defenses -- a blockade to simply prevent enemy rearmament. Yet, as we speak, this too is headed for international de-legitimation. Even the United States is now moving toward having it abolished.

But, if none of these is permissible, what's left?

Ah, but that's the point. It's the point understood by the blockade-busting flotilla of useful idiots and terror sympathizers, by the Turkish front organization that funded it, by the automatic anti-Israel Third World chorus at the United Nations, and by the supine Europeans who've had quite enough of the Jewish problem.

What's left? Nothing. The whole point of this relentless international campaign is to deprive Israel of any legitimate form of self-defense. Why, just last week, the Obama administration joined the jackals, and reversed four decades of U.S. practice, by signing onto a consensus document that singles out Israel's possession of nuclear weapons -- thus de-legitimizing Israel's very last line of defense: deterrence.

The world is tired of these troublesome Jews, 6 million -- that number again -- hard by the Mediterranean, refusing every invitation to national suicide. For which they are relentlessly demonized, ghettoized and constrained from defending themselves, even as the more committed anti-Zionists -- Iranian in particular -- openly prepare a more final solution.


04 Jun 10 - 01:29 PM (#2920621)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Jon Stewart (a "troublesome Jew") on Charles Krauthammer


04 Jun 10 - 01:33 PM (#2920624)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

"If you can't refute the content attack the source - weak and pathetic."


So he is right about the statements of fact, since you can only attack the writer?


04 Jun 10 - 01:39 PM (#2920629)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

The Australian
June 2nd

"ISRAEL'S murder of the human rights activists on the MV Samoud on Monday brings into focus its policy of disregard for human lives and disrespect for international laws and conventions. This policy has been a product of world apathy to the plight of the Palestinians and US blanket support for Israeli actions.

The policy, best described as "shoot first and explain later", is heavily reliant on a well-funded PR department (Hasbara) in the Israeli government. However, the real support for this policy comes from Western governments, including our own, which have provided support and excuses for Israel's actions in the past and today have to share part of the blame for the killing of innocent civilians.

Israel's policy has been practised on a daily basis in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Much of these activities rarely get a mention in the world media. However, the spectacular events and civilian casualties during the war on Lebanon in 2006, the war on the Gaza Strip in 2008 and the killing of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh in Dubai were well covered in the media. These violations of human rights were hardly investigated, and Israel did not pay any price for its blatant disregard of international law. If anything, these wars have provided testing grounds for Israel's weapons and the footage has been used to sell more arms to the world. One wonders, should not the world community feel responsible for the deaths of those civilians?

Many in Palestine and the Arab world have been calling on the world not to apply double standards when it comes to Israel. Yet many governments, mainly for financial reasons, have found a populist spin to sell to their constituencies to justify the Israeli actions. However, it has become clear the tide is turning and governments that support Israel are running thin on the ground to justify intentional, vicious aggression that violates every norm in our society. Those governments and individuals have to shoulder their responsibility for Israel's latest act.

The world has reacted angrily to the Gaza flotilla events and so it should. It should also express harsher sentiments on the three-year blockade of the Gaza Strip, which amounts to collective punishment forbidden under international law. It is likely, too, that Israel will pay a small price in the short term for its actions. These condemnations are symbolic only and are ineffective in the long term. They need to be followed by decisive actions that will send a message to Israel that the world is not willing to tolerate this any more.

Not only governments have responsibility to act but also every individual who feels compelled to react to this needless aggression and loss of lives. The nonviolent Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions of Israeli products and institutions campaign has been in place for a few years. It empowers every citizen in the world to express disgust at Israel's action.

The Australian government has described Israel's action as deplorable and called for a full investigation. Although this is commendable, the Australian people should demand Australia reassess its close ties with Israel. On the day the government sent ASIO officers to Israel to investigate the passport forging affair, Australia signed a $250 million arms deal with Israel. This speaks volumes on the real relationship with Israel.

The Australian government and others across the world should endorse the BDS campaign, as they did with South Africa, and demand that Israel end the blockade of the Gaza Strip, agree to a UN peacekeeping force, dismantle the illegal settlements and the apartheid wall and enter into immediate and serious negotiations to end this 62-year conflict.

Inaction will be interpreted as an endorsement for Israel's act and a caveat for its next atrocity"


Well now we could go on posting excerpts from the Press ad infinitum - even take a straw poll to detirmine which countries regard the attack and killings on the Flotilla as illegal

Oh, I'm sorry, that would be 'the usual suspects' - The UN, Europe etc.....


04 Jun 10 - 01:40 PM (#2920630)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

This is for you, Roberto.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpMpHgw7yVk


beardedbruce, are you trying to make it look like that quote in your post there is from me?


04 Jun 10 - 01:43 PM (#2920633)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

...or are you doing that thing again where you act like you think that everyone who is on the other side of an argument from you is a part of a borg collective, so it doesn't really matter which one of us says what?


04 Jun 10 - 01:49 PM (#2920636)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

I did not intend to imply that YOU had made the statement- but are you saying it is NOT true?

If that is the case, you had best not complain about personnal attacks, since you are useing them as opposed to a debate on the facts.


04 Jun 10 - 01:51 PM (#2920640)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

By the way, I will use as precedent in my argument in response to Krauthammer, who is not a troublesome Jew, but rather, a troublesome fascist, that Israel attacked Egypt because of a naval blockade. If it was illegal for Egypt to blockade Israel, and if Israel was justified in attacking Egypt because of it, Israel really can't then turn around and say that its own blockade is not an act of war that is subject to defensive action. What's good for the goose...


04 Jun 10 - 01:52 PM (#2920641)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I don't think he's attacking Krauthammer, beardedbruce. I think he's attacking Krauthammer's lies. Big difference there.


04 Jun 10 - 02:13 PM (#2920652)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

Carol, BB is repeating a remark addressed to me as I earlier questioned whether a report in a paper which was part of a group dedicated to unconditionally supporting Israeli government actions could/should possibly be regarded as just a teensey weensey itty bitty biased.

I can only reply, as I did previously 04 Jun 10 - 09:35 AM, that I apply the same principles to one of our own UK papers which has a very obvious agenda too.
Strangely, I don't consider querying the objectivity of any source 'weak and pathetic' although sometimes it appears as rare as hens teeth

and btw - I wasn't 'attacking' the source just pointing out as I did for the article I quoted from The Independent

"Of course they were asking for it" 04 Jun 10 - 01:05 PM

the 'political' stance of the source.

Now maybe we can drop the personal insults and return to the topic?


04 Jun 10 - 02:13 PM (#2920653)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Ok, I'll rephrase, just for you. I think he is attacking what he would suggest are the gross inaccuracies in Krauthamer's assessment of the situation.

Krauthammer, though, is attacking everyone with whom he doesn't agree with his insinuation that they regard Jews as being troublesome. It's certainly an oblique character assassination, but it is a character assassination nevertheless, and since you are endorsing his words, that means that you are also making this character assassination yourself. So you're really not in a position to be pointing fingers about attacking the messenger rather than the message.


04 Jun 10 - 02:14 PM (#2920654)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Crossposted, Emma. But he was using your words against me.


04 Jun 10 - 02:30 PM (#2920667)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

So I've got some questions for the hasbaristas in this thread. Please show me the law(s) under which Israel claims the right to impose this blockade on Gaza. And please cite the specific language in the law(s) that pertain to this specific case.

And if the law(s) pertain to the rights of belligerents in a war situation, please show me the parts that specify the rights of both sides. That is to say, what right does a country have to enforce a blockade, and what rights do a country have to defend itself against a blockade.


04 Jun 10 - 02:41 PM (#2920676)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

The Irish relief vessel is on the way.

Will more be killed?


04 Jun 10 - 02:56 PM (#2920683)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I've been trying to find a live feed from the ship, but so far no luck. I saw a report that the ship had recently been outfitted with camera and satellite equipment so that it could document what happens and broadcast a live feed. I also saw, a couple of hours ago, a report saying that the Israelis had already blocked the satellite. I don't know if this is accurate or not. If anyone has any further information, I would be grateful.


04 Jun 10 - 03:53 PM (#2920725)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

Krauthammer? Really? Where's that "cracking up laughing" smiley?


04 Jun 10 - 04:20 PM (#2920746)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Jewish boat to Gaza sailing in July


04 Jun 10 - 04:21 PM (#2920747)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

The Rachel Corrie's cargo


04 Jun 10 - 04:34 PM (#2920753)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

At the demonstration tonight in Rome, Arab children shouting murderers against Israel. Two days ago, the demonstration in praise of the flottilla with activists shouting murderers at the Jew peole in Rome's ghetto. I'll never support such shame.


04 Jun 10 - 04:41 PM (#2920759)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

It's so sad - Grown men chanting murder against the flotilla members in Israel and yelling that it was a 'crime' that they weren't all shot; then manhandling the young female reporter who filmed them!

Yes makes you ashamed to be human at times


04 Jun 10 - 04:53 PM (#2920768)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Some people are generalizing to all Jews the criticism that should only be leveled to the people who are committing the acts of oppression, and that's wrong, and whenever we see that happening, we need to speak out against it (and believe me, I spend a lot of my day doing just that).

However, there are just as many people in Israel who are shouting things like "death to the Arabs" and other equally wrong and horrific things. I don't think you serve your arguments very well by singling out only one side of that problem for your condemnation or trying to smear the entire Palestinian rights movement or all Arabs because of the behavior of some people in those groups. Just as it would not serve my arguments if I were to only condemn the behavior of those Jews who are shouting things like "death to the Arabs" or to generalize that behavior to all Jews.


04 Jun 10 - 05:06 PM (#2920780)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

The government of Israel didn't just steal the aid from the flotilla. They have also stolen all of the personal belongings of the flotilla members except for the clothes they were wearing when they were kidnapped. That is cellphones, computers, ipads, clothing, money, and everything else they had with them. The dollar value of this theft is enormous.


04 Jun 10 - 05:17 PM (#2920787)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

The Rachel Corrie, an Irish ship, is Malaysian funded by Mahatir Mohamad, the country's former prime minister.
Anifah Aman, Malaysia's foreign affairs minister, said in a statement issued late on Thursday that the Israeli authorities should insure a safe passage for the vessel to Gaza to deliver the humanitarian cargo.
Mairead Corrigan, a Nobel Peace Laureate, is aboard.

Brian Cowen, the Irish prime minister, asked Israel to permit the Irish-owned aid ship, named after an American woman killed by an Israeli bulldozer trying to prevent a house demolition.

The vessel carries cement, a material banned from entering Gaza, in addition to medical and school equipment.

http:/english.aljazeera.net, June 4.


04 Jun 10 - 05:27 PM (#2920793)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

sorry to lower the tone here but on an earlier radio comedy approach to the weeks news tonight it was suggested that the Israelis could be called 'anti cementic'

If you didn't laugh occasionally; you'd weep


04 Jun 10 - 05:28 PM (#2920795)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

OK CarolC
Can we see your clear statement that people who say carry signs and chant "Death to Israelis", "Dealt to Jews", "Death to Arabs" and Death to Muslims" all as equally wrong....I will even throw in "Death to Americans and America, which also seems to come up now and then"


04 Jun 10 - 05:34 PM (#2920796)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Absolutely, Ed. This is what I have said already several times today when I have encountered such behavior on Facebook...

"The young woman who recently lost her eye when she was shot in the face with a tear gas canister by the Israeli border police is Jewish. She paid a much heavier price on behalf of the Palestinian cause than most of us posting to pages like this one. Many Jews pay a much bigger price for their activism than most people because they are isolated from and condemned by their community and often even by their families. We need their help, and they deserve our respect.

We are not fighting "the Jews". We are fighting oppression."


04 Jun 10 - 05:35 PM (#2920797)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

Emma B: I like it!


04 Jun 10 - 05:39 PM (#2920800)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

A little bit of that cement came from me. I had hoped that it would help to keep some Palestinian family warm next winter.


04 Jun 10 - 05:41 PM (#2920802)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

"It feel good when all the hate is gone towards those and actions you don't like. It can be an eye opener, a mind opener, a heart opener, and and take a weight from your shoulders"
Quote, source unknown.


04 Jun 10 - 05:53 PM (#2920805)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""If the state of Israel was handed over to the Palestinians ... what would the outcome and fate be for the current Jewish inhabitants?

Would this Palestinian state be a democracy?

Curious as what everyone would answer to these questions?
""

Several answers spring to mind:-

1. If my aunt had bollocks she'd be my uncle.
2. This kind of hypothetical question is unanswerable.
3. The question is not germane to the topic, as it seems unlikely that Gaza will ever be in a position to blockade Israel, much less mount an illegal pirate attack on a US ship delivering goods to Israel.

So, if you have no more questions on that subject, can we get back to the realms of reality?

Don T.


04 Jun 10 - 06:02 PM (#2920811)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Some of us never had any hate, Ed. No more than the people who were fighting for the rights of African Americans in the US South during segregation, or the people fighting apartheid in South Africa. When oppression and injustice is the order of the day, it is the duty of people of conscience to do everything we can to bring it to an end, especially those of us who are being made complicit through the use of our tax dollars by the oppressors.


04 Jun 10 - 06:05 PM (#2920814)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Does nobody have an answer to my questions?


04 Jun 10 - 06:10 PM (#2920817)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

It looks as if at least one word, and maybe more, are missed out from that quote Ed posted.


04 Jun 10 - 06:14 PM (#2920820)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

"Some of us never had any hate"
The intent is good. But, though opossibly not intended,words, if not carefully structured, can incite hate.


04 Jun 10 - 06:17 PM (#2920823)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

....and, there is plenty of hate in the world....and in the Middle East...where what happened hundreds or thousands of years ago...are fresh issues today. Hopefully, we do not get swept into that.


04 Jun 10 - 06:18 PM (#2920826)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

I wish to claim the title of "king of mudcat typos"...if the claim has not been made before:)


04 Jun 10 - 06:23 PM (#2920831)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

The intent is good. But, though opossibly not intended,words, if not carefully structured, can incite hate.

Ed, if you are accusing me of not being careful in my speech in reference to groups of people, such as Jews, then I think you had better provide some evidence of it, because I take it to be a libel. And I would suggest taking a good look at some of your own posts.

And by the way, I also posted a criticism of an anti-Semitic remark right here in this thread, similar to the one I quoted for you. But it was deleted by the moderators along with the anti-Semitic remark.


04 Jun 10 - 06:28 PM (#2920835)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

Sorry...Carol C, I won't take the bait....and get in an argument...which is easy to do:) I accused you of nothing. Any accusation is in your mind. If it is there (and it's for you to decide)...that's your issue to deal with, not mine.

With all respects to your opinions...and, to nme they are just that....no more value than anyone else's on Mudcat, or in the happy world we live in.


04 Jun 10 - 06:33 PM (#2920844)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

You know, one thing that really burns my britches about a lot of the people here in the Mudcat, and is one of the reasons I find myself spending less and less time here (except for this one thread, which is incredibly important, as far as I'm concerned), is because of the hypocrisy of people like Ed, who insinuate that people who stand up for human rights for all are inciting hatred, while they say nothing whatever about all of the overt racism that is expressed towards Muslims and Arabs right here in the Mudcat and in the larger societal context. There's no excuse for that. It's just racism, pure and simple. Don't speak up for the people who are being brutally oppressed because if you do, you might spread hatred towards those who are oppressing them. Bullshit!


04 Jun 10 - 06:33 PM (#2920845)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

"I wish to claim the title of "king of mudcat typos"...if the claim has not been made before:) "

Ed, 'when you are king dilly dilly, I will be queen' :)


04 Jun 10 - 06:35 PM (#2920848)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Oh, come off it, Ed. This isn't just an insinuation, it's an accusation. Whose intent are you talking about then? You said it in response to what I said about myself.

The intent is good. But, though opossibly not intended,words, if not carefully structured, can incite hate.


04 Jun 10 - 06:44 PM (#2920854)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

That quote Ed gave seemed to suggest that hating actions us the same as hating people(though it's hard to tell, since something was wrong with it: ...towards those and actions...??).

I'd suggest that though hating people is always a waste of energy, hating actions is not necessarily so.


04 Jun 10 - 06:45 PM (#2920855)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

And don't try to deny your double standard, Ed. Where was your criticism of Roberto's failure to differentiate the behavior of some Arabs and Palestinian rights activists, and that of the groups as a whole? That's right. You only came after me even though I'm not the one who was generalizing about any groups at all.


04 Jun 10 - 06:49 PM (#2920857)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

Most Mudfolks dont dare to tread into one sided arguments on Mudcat...because there are traps to be sprung and they get baited and speared by all those claiming to represent "right perspective" on a thread title and an issue....but actually represent only "like thinking" folks that venture there...and are not really interested in debate, or meaningful consideration to an oposing view.   

I have been around life long enmough to recognise it, and not get drawn into it. A look at who has dominated the discussion, is telling as to what has been discussed here. I expect most reasoned mudfolks will avoid this thread...as most of the stuff has been debated and said beforew here anyway. I doubt if any opinions will be influenced by anything anyone has to post...logical, questioning, less logical..because the thread is not one seeking perspective...it is one seeking acceptance of a preconceived opinion...right or wrong.

And here si a big smile:) because efforts to discredit opposing views through bully tactics (male or female) don't work with me.


04 Jun 10 - 06:51 PM (#2920858)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Like your arguments aren't one sided, Ed. Fat chance. Give it up. You're just baiting people now.


04 Jun 10 - 06:51 PM (#2920859)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

Sorry CarolC, I did not see Roberto's comments to refer to him equally. I am just a bad boy, without ethical principles (and principals, being a typo king).


04 Jun 10 - 06:52 PM (#2920860)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

So let's put you in the hot seat, then, Ed. Where is your criticism of Roberto's post?


04 Jun 10 - 06:53 PM (#2920862)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

ok Sorry Carol I didn't mean to be flippant I abhor the racism and Islamophobia I've encountered here too.

While I am encouraged to see that some posters condemn the actions of the Israeli government who ordered this attack I was appalled to hear an aquaintance rail about the infamy of 'World Jewry' this last weekend.

Two wrongs have never made a right and I am concerned about the increasing polarization and frankly, hatred, that this necessary humanitarian effort has provoked.


04 Jun 10 - 06:57 PM (#2920865)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I wasn't thinking about you when I said that, Emma. I'm not sure what you said that you are referring to.


04 Jun 10 - 06:59 PM (#2920866)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

While I am encouraged to see that some posters condemn the actions of the Israeli government who ordered this attack I was appalled to hear an aquaintance rail about the infamy of 'World Jewry' this last weekend.

We just have to set them straight, Emma. Over and over and over, as many times as it takes.


04 Jun 10 - 07:17 PM (#2920879)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke

I was appalled to hear an aquaintance rail about the infamy of 'World Jewry' this last weekend.

Idiot, but it's what I said in an earlier post; Israel's actions make antisemitism look reasonable to unthinking folk. That's most of the world.

We antisemites want to save Jews from Israel.


04 Jun 10 - 07:19 PM (#2920882)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

The Rachel Corrie is supposed to arrive in Gaza around 2:00 AM GMT if she's not intercepted.


04 Jun 10 - 07:34 PM (#2920896)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Webcast from the Rachel Corrie


04 Jun 10 - 07:34 PM (#2920897)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

'Rachel Corrie' rejects deal
By JPOST.COM STAFF
06/05/2010 00:57

Ship rejects Irish gov't deal; Due in Gaza on Saturday morning.

The Irish Foreign Minister, Dr. Michael Martin announced on Friday night that an agreement had been reached with Israel, whereby the Rachel Corrie would proceed to Ashdod where its contents would be checked, unloaded and shipped to Gaza under observation by representatives of the activists, the UN and the Irish government. The activists rejected this offer, continuing to insist on sailing to Gaza and breaking the Israeli blockade, but also stated (according to the Irish FM) that they would not resist the IDF, should it decide to board the ship.

The ship is expected to close in on Gaza Saturday morning. It's the second attempt this week by the Free Gaza Movement to break Israel's naval blockade of Gaza as well as its closure of that area's land passages to all but humanitarian aid.


04 Jun 10 - 07:37 PM (#2920901)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""Israel's actions make antisemitism look reasonable to unthinking folk. That's most of the world.

We antisemites want to save Jews from Israel.
""

Antisemitism is just as reprehensible as anti-Islamism, or anti atheism.

It is Israel, the government of Israel, and the Israeli Defence Force, that is at fault in this, not Jews, or Judaism.

Until we start blaming the right people, and stop scapegoating the whole of a religious grouping for the actions of a military/industrial hierarchy, we will never get to the nub of the problem.

Don T.


04 Jun 10 - 07:40 PM (#2920904)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

They won't take it to Ashdod because they know Israel won't allow the aid to go through, just as it's not releasing the aid from the rest of the flotilla.


04 Jun 10 - 07:49 PM (#2920911)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

"its contents would be checked, unloaded and shipped to Gaza under observation by representatives of the activists, the UN and the Irish government."

But of course this would not fuel the propaganda machine which, as is quite obvious, is the purpose of these "humanitarian" flotillas.


04 Jun 10 - 07:53 PM (#2920912)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

One of my facebook friends, a young Jewish woman, has had some difficulty figuring out her place in this whole struggle. When I first "met" her, she was lamenting the way she was being treated by other Jews. She was utterly sick and tired of being called things like "self-hating Jew" because of her activism for human rights. I told her at the time to just know that she had my profound gratitude for her courage.

Later on, she went totally in the other direction and started to feel really hemmed in by the anger people are showing towards Israel and the kinds of people we have been talking about here who don't differentiate between the oppressors in Israel and Jews generally. She started getting very involved in organizations that are more of the "Israel, right or wrong" variety. And she told me she feared for world Jewry. I told her I understood, and that wherever I see that kind of behavior, I do my best to nip it in the bud. That was a couple of weeks ago.

Last night, after she saw a picture of the young woman who lost her eye when an Israeli border police shot her in the face with a tear gas canister, she became very emotional and started going totally in the other direction again. She said, "I can't seem to get this blood off my hands. Israel, you've broken my heart." And then she said, "I will always remember what (a friend) said to me... silence = death."


04 Jun 10 - 07:55 PM (#2920913)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

"its contents would be checked, unloaded and shipped to Gaza under observation by representatives of the activists, the UN and the Irish government."

Oh yeah? So where's the aid from the other ships, then? From all of the prior ships that have been intercepted by the Israeli government? The Gazans have never seen a single bit of any of it.


04 Jun 10 - 08:05 PM (#2920923)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Carol,

From what I can gather there are many Israeli and non Israeli Jews who are dealing with the same personal conflict vis a vis recognition of genuine anti-semitism on the one hand and anger at the Isareli administrations policies and actions on the other hand.

Of these people I have met a couple with very strong minds who are able to keep their focus despite intense family pressure and ridicule and despite the animisoty of Anti-semites, and who have a very clear agenda on the subject of what needs to change in Israel.

Like all people and countries worldwide, most people are vulnerable and manipulable, and they are played buy the media and by lies, while a minority of hard working courageous informed people sacrifice their health and the ease of comfy social acquiescence for a life of honesty and free expression.

Free expression is not a conferred right, it is a state of mind.


04 Jun 10 - 08:38 PM (#2920954)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

The Israelis would not permit the cement, and some other construction materials to go to the Gaza strip; such materials are banned. They would be kept and not sent on to Gaza.


04 Jun 10 - 08:42 PM (#2920956)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

God forbid the Gazans be allowed to re-build the buildings the Israelis bombed to smithereens. Or eat nutmeg.


04 Jun 10 - 08:55 PM (#2920963)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I felt really bad for her, Lox. She's had quite a struggle. I felt especially bad last night when I saw what she wrote. I told her I have blood on my hands, too. I don't think that made her feel any better, though. She has a much more difficult set of choices to make than I do.


04 Jun 10 - 09:20 PM (#2920975)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

She's just passed the port of Alexandria in Egypt. They're saying 3 hours if she doesn't encounter any pirates.


04 Jun 10 - 09:21 PM (#2920976)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Peace

Israel has fucked up BIG time with the whole Gaza issue. George Bush did better PR while he was president. IMO, the UN should take over and send in peace-keeping troops and I don`t mean maybe. I have been an Israel supporter for most of my life. For the first time I have as little love for Israel as I do for most countries in the mid-East. I am not about to white-wash Hamas or any other groups that use the Gazans as a tool for propaganda, but the letter I`m penning to Netanyahu--assuming it gets to him--will make clear my extreme disappointment that the ONE country in the world that SHOULD understand the lot of the Palestinians doesn`t. It`s horseshit and I don`t care who knows it.


04 Jun 10 - 09:31 PM (#2920983)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

Peace, that post means a great deal to me as one who has frequently found myself at odds with you over the humanitarian crisis in Gaza

I only hope that it may mean something to Netanyahu too.


04 Jun 10 - 09:57 PM (#2920995)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke

One sad side effect is that the Windows for Peace concert in Leeds this weekend has been cancelled. A movement meant to build bridges between Moslems and Jews using music. Probably doesn't do much, but wtf.


04 Jun 10 - 10:23 PM (#2921005)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Update on the Rachel Corrie posted about 20 minutes ago.

http://www.ipadio.com/phlogs/Gaza_TVNews/2010/06/05/Gaza-TVs-phlog-Israeli-Naval-Ships-On-Way-To-Intercept-Ra


04 Jun 10 - 10:39 PM (#2921016)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Israel attempting to board.


04 Jun 10 - 10:40 PM (#2921019)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Go here for live stream...

http://www.livestream.com/shiptogaza


04 Jun 10 - 10:42 PM (#2921022)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Rachel Corrie has been taken by pirates.


04 Jun 10 - 10:49 PM (#2921031)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

http://www.ipadio.com/phlogs/Gaza_TVNews/2010/06/05/Gaza-TVs-phlog-Rachel-Corrie-Ship-Now-Boarded-And-Under?displayMode=website


04 Jun 10 - 10:56 PM (#2921037)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

Why couldn't Israel just escort the ship to a Gazan port, and inspect every item as it came off the ship and confiscate any weapons?

Oh wait. They'd also have to confiscate children's toys, wheelchairs, concrete, and nutmeg. That might be embarrassing with the world watching.


04 Jun 10 - 11:02 PM (#2921041)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Plus, that would be recognizing the people of Gaza as human beings rather than as their door mats.


04 Jun 10 - 11:08 PM (#2921043)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

There's going to be a lot of boats and ships heading for Gaza in the next few months. A lot of boats and ships.


04 Jun 10 - 11:18 PM (#2921055)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Twitter feeds are reporting that the passengers of the ship are saying that she has not been taken but is only being followed by the Israeli pirates. This is very strange.


04 Jun 10 - 11:20 PM (#2921056)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

twitter feed


05 Jun 10 - 12:34 AM (#2921085)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

She's still steaming toward Gaza. Somebody tweeted that one of their Facebook friends in Gaza can see her about 20 miles off shore.


And here's a good resource for information about the flotilla...

The Flotilla Archive


05 Jun 10 - 02:04 AM (#2921115)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

More fabricated evidence from the Israeli government...

http://aliabunimah.posterous.com/proof-emerges-idf-audio-of-radio-communicatio


05 Jun 10 - 02:27 AM (#2921123)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

The pirates are ordering the Rachel Corrie to go to Ashdod. the ship has refused two times.


05 Jun 10 - 02:31 AM (#2921126)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: freda underhill

Time to look at an important thread started by Emma b last year, about An Arab Israeli orchestra, known as the West-Eastern Divan orchestra which shows a powerful choice that musicians are making - rather than getting caught up in the blame game, playing music together.

Daniel Baremboim and Edward Said, the joint founders of this orchestra, are helping break down barriers between young musicians from different Middle eastern backgrounds, giving them an opportunity to meet and get to know each other, while learning and making music together. This demonstrates the possibilities of a future when there can be peace in Palestine and Israel.


05 Jun 10 - 02:59 AM (#2921129)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

The pirates are starting to make threats.


05 Jun 10 - 03:06 AM (#2921132)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Rachel Corrie preparing for possible takeover.


05 Jun 10 - 03:27 AM (#2921135)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Some sources are reporting that she is being boarded. Some reports are saying she is no longer in sight of Gaza.


05 Jun 10 - 03:40 AM (#2921139)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

She hasn't been boarded yet, and she just refused the pirates 3rd order.


05 Jun 10 - 03:45 AM (#2921140)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Rachel Corrie has entered Gazan waters. There are pirate gun boats all around her.


05 Jun 10 - 04:02 AM (#2921146)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

She refused a third warning. The pirates say they are preparing to take her forcefully, but nothing seems to have happened yet.


05 Jun 10 - 04:14 AM (#2921147)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

One of my facebook friends in Gaza posted this just now...

"every day i wakeup thinking of how would my life be if theire was no siege !!

it will be a really good life , not the best , but better than now !!
the best one , will be when we got the free PALESTINE for ever !! i wish !!"


05 Jun 10 - 04:41 AM (#2921152)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

The Rachel Corrie has been forcibly seized by the Israeli pirates and is being towed to Ashdod. All on board are reported safe.


05 Jun 10 - 04:50 AM (#2921156)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Now that it's over, I just want to say a word about fabricating anti-Semitic acts.

In the link I provided that proves that the recording that the Israeli government released in which people on the Mavi Marmara were supposed to have made anti-Semitic remarks and a remark that I guess they think a terrorist would make, is fabricated (more stupidity from the hasbara people), we have an example of just about one of the lowest things I can imagine anyone doing short of physically harming someone. They fabricate an act of anti-Semitism in order to smear several hundred good people. Not only do they commit a vile libel against these people, but they do a horrendous disservice to Jews who find themselves subjected to real acts of anti-Semitism, because when people find out that sometimes these things are fabricated as a weapon and to harm other people, they might not take real cases of anti-Semitism quite so seriously.

The Israeli government are just about the slimiest and most reprehensible people I can possibly imagine.


05 Jun 10 - 05:55 AM (#2921165)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

CarolC writes "Roberto's failure to differentiate the behavior of some Arabs and Palestinian rights activists" and asks Ed "Where is your criticism of Roberto's post?". But I didn't put different people all in a bunch. I reported two facts: Arab children at the demonstration in Rome taught by adults to shout "murderers" against Israel and a demonstration getting close to the Jew Ghetto in Rome shouting "murderers" against the Jew people that lives there. Facts, that I said I didn't like. What's your problem, CarolC?


05 Jun 10 - 07:08 AM (#2921182)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy

BBC here:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10245176.stm


05 Jun 10 - 11:53 AM (#2921259)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

One of the "peace activists" of the flotilla, Angela Lano, writes for a site whose name speaks for itself, TerraSantaLibera, that is "HolyLandFree". On this site, you can find "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion". That is, the worst racist anti-Semite propaganda.


05 Jun 10 - 12:21 PM (#2921269)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

Anybody who publishes the Protocols automatically puts themselves out of the running for being listened to or considered or even spoken about in polite company.


05 Jun 10 - 12:23 PM (#2921270)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll

"Racist anti-Semite propaganda."
Excusing the behaviour of the Israelis by hiding behind the accusation of anti-Semitism is shameful.
Whenever criticism of Israel is raised it is met with "Anti Semitism" yet many of my Jewish friends have been the stongest critics of what they have described as 'Zionist Fascism'.
Up to around ten years ago we were protesting the existance of a wall dividing the two Germanys, yet the Israelis have built exactly the same wall for the same purpose.
They have illegally annexed Palestinian land and evicted the legitimate occupants.
They have systematically bombed civilians using chemical weapons; this bombing has included hospitals and schools.
They have illegally blockaded a country, preventing essential supplies from being landed there - including building material to re-build the same hospitals and schools razed to the ground by their bombs.
Comparisons with the Nazis and present day Israel are inescapable, and it is unforgivable that countries like the UK and the USA have continued to either support or ignore what is happening is proof of the old saying "Politics and money speak louder than humanity in todays world".
The very least that should happen is a total cessation of trade with Israel and a boycott of their goods similar to that against fascist South Africa.
Jim Carroll


05 Jun 10 - 12:32 PM (#2921273)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ruth Archer

"Israel's actions make antisemitism look reasonable to unthinking folk. That's most of the world."

There is a world of difference between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. The latter is perfectly valid as a way of expressing utter disapproval of Israeli occupation and the subjugation of the Palestinian people.

A fear of being labelled anti-Semitic is at least partly responsible for the blind eye that has been turned by the world's governments for several decades to Israel's repeated illegal, anti-humanitarian acts. Now is the time for the rest of the world to say enough is enough.


05 Jun 10 - 12:34 PM (#2921274)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ruth Archer

"The very least that should happen is a total cessation of trade with Israel and a boycott of their goods similar to that against fascist South Africa"

Indeed. If we can't get our governments to take a stand, then an international boycott is a good starting point for the rest of us. It helped to end Apartheid...


05 Jun 10 - 12:35 PM (#2921275)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

But I didn't put different people all in a bunch. I reported two facts: Arab children at the demonstration in Rome taught by adults to shout "murderers" against Israel and a demonstration getting close to the Jew Ghetto in Rome shouting "murderers" against the Jew people that lives there. Facts, that I said I didn't like. What's your problem, CarolC?

This is what you said, verbatim:

At the demonstration tonight in Rome, Arab children shouting murderers against Israel. Two days ago, the demonstration in praise of the flottilla with activists shouting murderers at the Jew peole in Rome's ghetto. I'll never support such shame.

Which shame? The protests, or the specific people who said these things? You didn't differentiate. And where is your condemnation for the Israelis who are calling for death to all Arabs?


05 Jun 10 - 12:38 PM (#2921277)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

"The Israeli government are just about the slimiest and most reprehensible people I can possibly imagine".

Well, as to slimy actions and news fabrications by governments, there are alot to draw from. Take the Kuwait conflict, and consider the example below:


http://www.prwatch.org/books/tsigfy10.html


05 Jun 10 - 12:46 PM (#2921283)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

"Up to around ten years ago we were protesting the existance of a wall dividing the two Germanys, yet the Israelis have built exactly the same wall for the same purpose."

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't recall one of the Germanys sending suicide bombers into the other for the purpose of murdering innocent people.


05 Jun 10 - 01:01 PM (#2921291)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Roberto, it looks to me like you are doing exactly the same thing as the Israeli government. I just had a look at the website to which you refer, and the page that contains the protocols. I used the babelfish translator to see what the text above the protocols had to say and while I couldn't understand all of it, the word "false" appears three times. It looks to me like a warning to people to not believe the protocols should people happen to come across them on the web.

Ed, there is no doubt that there is no shortage of slimy, reprehensible people in governments all over the world. But that doesn't alter what I said. Israel is spitting on the graves of every Jew who died in the Holocaust when they fabricate acts of anti-Semitism in order to smear people and silence them. And they help to create an environment in which people are less likely to believe accusations of anti-Semitism that are true.


05 Jun 10 - 01:38 PM (#2921311)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

"Up to around ten years ago we were protesting the existance of a wall dividing the two Germanys, yet the Israelis have built exactly the same wall for the same purpose."

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't recall one of the Germanys sending suicide bombers into the other for the purpose of murdering innocent people.


Sheesh. That's because the wall was put up by their own government. So who are they going to kill, themselves?


05 Jun 10 - 01:40 PM (#2921313)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

From Alice Walker -


You will have no protection


05 Jun 10 - 01:41 PM (#2921314)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

In an article published 6 years ago about the motives of suicide bombers, Professor Paul Wilson, writer, criminologist and Dean of Humanities and Social Sciences at Bond University concludes...

"In short, interpreting the motives of suicide bombers in simple psychological or religious terms does not get us very far.

Suicide bombers are motivated to commit their carnage because they believe, rightly or wrongly, they have been oppressed and humiliated by the Israelis for decades.

Causing terror among their enemies is one of the few ways left to them to fight back.

What this means is that neither Arafat himself or the might of the Israeli army can stop hundreds if not thousands of young men and women from acting as deadly human missiles.

Their actions most certainly have tragic consequences that may well be described as "evil".

But their motives are political rather than satanic or fanatical and only political solutions will stop the terror from continuing."


Six years later, Arafat has gone, but the sense of injustice and political impotence in the light of the world's indifference to the humanitarian crisis on Gaza following the blockade has only increased.

While Gaza may not have received its desperately needed cement, battery powered wheelchairs and school books etc at least the rest of the world may have opened one eye to their plight


05 Jun 10 - 01:44 PM (#2921316)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

Let me explain it clearly so that you will understand. The poster stated that the walls were put up for the same purpose. Since Israel put theirs up to help keep suicide bombers out the implication is that that was the same reason for the German wall, which is clearly untrue. But you knew that, it just doesn't fit in with your ideological position.


05 Jun 10 - 01:46 PM (#2921317)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Palestinians are hardly the only people who have used suicide bombing as a tactic. And quite a few (possibly the majority) of the people who have were not Muslim.


05 Jun 10 - 01:48 PM (#2921319)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

bobad, suicide bombing is a response to foreign occupation (real or perceived). The civilians who are targeted are those who are represented by the government in question. In East Germany, the government in question was their own. So I ask again... who would they target?


05 Jun 10 - 01:52 PM (#2921322)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

CarolC
Yes, there have been, and still are many slimy governments.

And, you, like all of us, are intitled to opinions and personal measurement of slimy governments. But, I found your statement, that, "The Israeli government are just about the slimiest and most reprehensible people I can possibly imagine", (while eye-catching) does a diservice to all others directly impacted by slimy actions by governments.


05 Jun 10 - 01:52 PM (#2921323)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

Look, what I am saying is that the poster's assertion that the walls were put up for the same purpose is untrue - that's all.


05 Jun 10 - 01:57 PM (#2921326)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

And, you, like all of us, are intitled to opinions and personal measurement of slimy governments. But, I found your statement, that, "The Israeli government are just about the slimiest and most reprehensible people I can possibly imagine", (while eye-catching) does a diservice to all others directly impacted by slimy actions by governments.

Maybe so. Let me rephrase - The people in the Israeli government are some of the slimiest and most reprehensible people I can possibly imagine.



Look, what I am saying is that the poster's assertion that the walls were put up for the same purpose is untrue - that's all.


Yes, that's quite true. The wall around East Berlin was to keep people from being able to leave the city to live elsewhere. The wall around Gaza is to help Israel commit an act of genocide against the population that lives within the wall.


05 Jun 10 - 02:01 PM (#2921330)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

"The wall around Gaza is to help Israel commit an act of genocide against the population that lives within the wall."

That is untrue, the purpose of the barrier is to help keep suicide bombers out.


05 Jun 10 - 02:07 PM (#2921335)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

The wall couldn't keep suicide bombers out if they really wanted to use that as a tactic. The wall is keeping people in, and food and other supplies out. People are dying because of it. This is an act of genocide.


05 Jun 10 - 02:23 PM (#2921345)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

I realize that the purpose for the wall doesn't accord with your ideological position but if you look at the statistics of the number of suicide bombings since the wall was mostly built you will find a strong correlation.

"Members of al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, Hamas, and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad have been less able to conduct attacks in Israel, the numbers of which have decreased in areas where the barrier has been completed"

Some opinions from jihadists:

"Palestinian Islamic Jihad leader Ramadan Abdallah Shalah complained to the Qatari newspaper Al-Sharq that the separation barrier "limits the ability of the resistance to arrive deep within [Israeli territory] to carry out suicide bombing attacks, but the resistance has not surrendered or become helpless, and is looking for other ways to cope with the requirements of every stage" of the intifada."

"Palestinian Islamic Jihad leader Ramadan Salah said that the barrier is an important obstacle, and that "if it weren't there, the situation would be entirely different."


05 Jun 10 - 02:35 PM (#2921353)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

The Apartheid Wall, which separates Palestinian farmers from their lands, and has required the 'relocation' of some 60,000 established olive and other fruit trees growing within the Security Fence is described by the official Israeli government site as
"being built with the sole purpose of saving the lives of the Israeli citizens who continue to be targeted by the terrorist campaign that began in 2000."

HOWEVER -

According to Haaretz
"The security fence is no longer mentioned as the major factor in preventing suicide bombings, mainly because the terrorists have found ways to bypass it"

From the official government report again -

"The land used in building the Security Fence is seized for military purposes, not confiscated, and it remains the property of the owner."

63 shops straddling the Green Line were demolished by the IDF during construction of the wall in the village of Nazlat Issa.
In August 2003, an additional 115 shops and stalls (an important source of income for several communities) and five to seven homes there were also demolished.

In addition to loss of land, in the city of Qalqilyah one-third of the city's water wells lie on the other side of the barrier

The United Nations Economic and Social Commission for Western Asia (ESCWA) estimates that in the north of the West Bank approximately 80 per cent of Palestinians who own land on the other side of the barrier have not received permits from the Israeli authorities, and hence cannot cultivate their fields

"The government of Israel recognizes that the security fence is a temporary tool needed to protect innocents while diplomatic efforts for a lasting peace continue."

So temporary that it is an approved 436 miles long and, in some areas, an 8 metre tall concrete wall.

In a 2004 advisory opinion, the International Court of Justice considered that "Israel cannot rely on a right of self-defence or on a state of necessity in order to preclude the wrongfulness of the construction of the wall".
The Court found that "the construction of the wall, and its associated régime, are contrary to international law

The Red Cross has declared the barrier in violation of the Geneva Convention. On February 18, 2004, The International Committee of the Red Cross stated that the Israeli barrier "causes serious humanitarian and legal problems" and goes "far beyond what is permissible for an occupying power"


Ironically the Apartheid Wall is also opposed by some Israelis......

"The Land of Israel belongs to the Jewish People as the Bible and the God of Israel has indicated.
If the Arabs wish to live in a Jewish State under Israel sovereignty, they must do so in a peaceful and tolerant manner.

The solution to terror is thus not erecting a fence but completely destroying the Palestinazi Authority; expelling all supporters of terror and reinstalling Jewish-Israeli control and sovereignty over all of Judea, Samaria and Gaza."


05 Jun 10 - 02:43 PM (#2921356)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

He's talking about the wall around Gaza, which conforms to its borders.


bobad, provide some sources for your quotes, please.


05 Jun 10 - 02:43 PM (#2921357)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

Song of the Olive Tree Leon Rosselson


05 Jun 10 - 02:47 PM (#2921358)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Also, bobad, if they were so concerned with suicide bombers, why did they put Israeli citizens in colonies inside the wall for several years?


05 Jun 10 - 02:50 PM (#2921360)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

Sorry I didn't mean to refer to Gaza, didn't even know there was a wall around Gaza, I am referring to the Security barrier.


05 Jun 10 - 02:53 PM (#2921362)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Well, that's just a joke bobad. A suicide bomber could easily get around that wall. A lot of the wall doesn't separate Palestinians from Israel, it separates Palestinians from their own fields and villages, as Emma said. That wall is an apartheid confiscatory wall what is being built to create facts on the ground and steal more land from the Palestinians and make it impossible for them to live.


05 Jun 10 - 03:38 PM (#2921376)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

http://www.therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=5229


05 Jun 10 - 03:41 PM (#2921379)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: freda underhill

Great song, Emma.


05 Jun 10 - 03:51 PM (#2921384)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/jun/04/confrontation-off-gaza-orwellian-spin/


05 Jun 10 - 03:59 PM (#2921389)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

I was at the concert where Leon Rosselson performed that song on the video - it was a moving moment
The song is on his CD 'Turning Silence into Song'

The real story behind the song

- The Inventory of Conflict and Environment (ICE) intends to provide a common basis and method for looking at issues of conflict and environment.
The site was conceived of by Dr. James R. Lee
American University, The School of International Service
4400 Massachusetts Ave. NW. Washington, DC.


05 Jun 10 - 04:30 PM (#2921403)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll

"Indeed. If we can't get our governments to take a stand, then an international boycott is a good starting point for the rest of us."
A Meeting of trades unionists, politicians, clerics et-al has just called for such a boycott to be put in place in Irealand.
"Since Israel put theirs up to help keep suicide bombers out"
Did they - I was under the impression that they put it up to ghettoise the Palestinians and to lower their standard of life in order to starve them out. The wall conveniently cuts many of the Palastinian farms in half, thus depriving their owners of a livelihood - Emma B said all that has to be said on this red herring. Wall building is a tried and trusted technique last used to some effect by the Nazis in Warsaw. As has been more than adequately pointed out, walls don't keep out determined resistance of any form, see the Berlin Wall and, for that matter, the one around the Warsaw Ghetto.
It will be interesting to find out the truth of the claim coming from one of Israel's strongest allies (up to now) that several of the victims of Israel's act of piracy earlier this week were executed by a single bullet in the back of the head. This can only add to the Irraeli Army's growing reputation as one of the most thuggish in the world.
Jim Carroll


05 Jun 10 - 04:39 PM (#2921409)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Speaking of boycotts...

Swedish harbor workers have declared a blockade on Israeli ships and goods.

I read somewhere that this is happening in other countries as well, but I don't remember which ones.


05 Jun 10 - 05:06 PM (#2921421)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

The hasbara people are now conducting an intimidation campaign in private messages all over the internet. In Facebook today, a Muslim friend told me she had received a hate message, and I was just now told in a private message that I am a self-hating Jew.

LOL That's a first for me.


05 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM (#2921431)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

From Amnesty International 18 January 2010

"Israel claims that the ongoing blockade of Gaza, in force since June 2007, is a response to the indiscriminate rocket attacks launched from Gaza into southern Israel by Palestinian armed groups.

The reality is that the blockade does not target armed groups but rather punishes Gaza's entire population by restricting the entry of food, medical supplies, educational equipment and building materials," said Malcolm Smart, Middle East and North Africa Director, Amnesty International.

"The blockade constitutes collective punishment under international law and must be lifted immediately."

As the occupying power, Israel has a duty under international law to ensure the welfare of Gaza's inhabitants, including their rights to health, education, food and adequate housing

During Operation "Cast Lead", from 27 December 2008 to 18 January 2009, 13 Israelis were killed, including three civilians in southern Israel, where dozens more were injured in indiscriminate rocket attacks by Palestinian armed groups.

In Gaza, Israeli attacks damaged or destroyed civilian buildings and infrastructure, including hospitals and schools, the water and electricity systems. Thousands of Palestinian homes were destroyed or severely damaged.

An estimated 280 of the 641 schools in Gaza were damaged and 18 were destroyed. More than half of Gaza's population is under the age of 18 and the disruption to their education, due to the damage caused during Operation "Cast Lead" and as a result of the continuing Israeli boycott, is having a devastating impact.

Hospitals have also been badly affected by the military offensive and the blockade.

Trucks of medical aid provided by the World Health Organization have been repeatedly refused entry to Gaza without explanation by Israeli officials.

Patients with serious medical conditions that cannot be treated in Gaza continue to be prevented or delayed from leaving Gaza by the Israeli authorities – since the closure of crossings leading into and out of Gaza, patients have been made to apply for permits, but these permits are frequently denied. On 1 November 2009, Samir al-Nadim, a father of three children, died after his exit from Gaza for a heart operation was delayed by 22 days."

BUT!

THE BLOCKADE IS MORE THAN JUST THE WALL!

Effect on Gaza fishing industry

The sea blockade has caused the "near collapse" of the Gaza fishing industry. Israel allows fishermen to travel only 3 nautical miles off shore, reduced from 6 nm in 2007.

One fisherman who went outside these limits was forced to strip down to his underwear and swim to the naval vessel.
He was blindfolded, handcuffed and taken in for questioning.
B'Tselem has released a report documenting the "continual shooting at, abuse of, and humiliation of" Palestinian fishermen.
The Israeli Navy's response was that it was checking for smuggled weapons. The Navy reports they intercepted the craft entering Gaza from Egypt.
B'Tselem has released a report documenting the "continual shooting at, abuse of, and humiliation of" Palestinian fishermen.

Israel claims to have further reduced the fishing zone to 3 nautical miles, but in fact is attacking Palestinian fishermen and other civilians even on shore

The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs has estimated that Gaza fishermen need to journey at least 12-15 nautical miles from shore to catch larger shoals, and sardines in particular are 6 nm offshore.
Shoals closer to shore have been depleted.

The total catch in 1999 was nearly 4,000 tons in pre-blockade 1999. This was reduced to 2,700 tons in 2008.

In the 90s, the Gaza fishing industry was worth $10 million annually or 4% of the total Palestinian economy; this was halved between 2001 and 2006.
45,000 Palestinians were employed in the fishing industry, employed in jobs such as catching fish, repairing nets and selling fish.
Fish also provided much-needed animal protein to Gazans diet.

From New Scientist
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16513-conflict-leaves-gazas-agriculture-in-ruins.html


05 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM (#2921437)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

You know one can't help thinking that if Hamas pledged to do all it could to stop rockets being sent into Israel then there would be no need for the measures Israel is taking to ensure that. Just two days ago four rockets were launched into southern Israel - and on it goes.


05 Jun 10 - 05:53 PM (#2921440)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Hamas did pledge to to that, bobad. And they are doing everything they can to stop the rockets. But Israel has almost completely destroyed the Gazan infrastructure, and Israel killed a lot of their law enforcement people, so they have a lot working against them, and not much working in their favor.


05 Jun 10 - 05:58 PM (#2921444)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

The friend in Gaza whose words I quoted previously in this thread just said this...


"i am so proud to be Palestinian !! so proud to be from Gaza !! so proud of all this people who are standing on our side and beliving in our rights !!
love you all ♥ ♥ !! and i want so badly , to see you all here in Gaza !!"


05 Jun 10 - 06:15 PM (#2921449)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll

"You know one can't help thinking that if Hamas pledged to do all it could to stop rockets being sent into Israel then there would be no need for the measures Israel is taking to ensure that."
Dream on - the occupation and the atrocities happened a long time before the rocket attacks - this is, and always has been a totally offensive action by the Israelis in order to expand its borders.
Try asking them if the rocket attacks stopped would they return the occupied territory to its rightful owners.
Israel is a fanatic terrorist nation; the fact that they are a nuclear fanatical terrorist nation gives one pause for thought - don't you think?
Jim Carroll


05 Jun 10 - 06:27 PM (#2921454)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

"this is, and always has been a totally offensive action by the Israelis in order to expand its borders."

What Jim says is backed up totally in an article in today's Huffington Post by

Dr. Geoffrey Wawro , the General Olinto Mark Barsanti Professor of Military History and Director of the Military History Center at the University of North Texas. He is the author of Quicksand: America's Pursuit of Power in the Middle East

He heads his article "A Head for an Eye' - the limits of 'escalation dominance'

Israel has long defended itself through a "doctrine of retaliatory action," which President Eisenhower angrily characterized in 1955 -- after savage Israeli reprisal raids into Gaza and Jordan -- as "more like a head for an eye than an eye for an eye."

The doctrine has not worked since Israel's 2006 invasion of Lebanon, which, in common with Gaza today, was launched to punish missile attacks (from Hezbollah country) and force the release of two Israeli soldiers seized by Lebanese guerrillas and carried back across the border.

Today, Israel is blockading and intermittently pummeling Gaza (about 1,200 Palestinians were killed in the January 2009 "Gaza War") to secure the release of Sergeant Gilad Shalit, who was abducted in 2006, and to stop the sputter of missile attacks from Hamas country.

But, as events in Gaza now demonstrate, escalation dominance no longer works, and Netanyahu is exposed as having no new usable doctrine to replace it.

The first cracks appeared in the Lebanon War of 2006. When Hezbollah paramilitaries fired Katyusha rockets into northern Israel and seized two Israeli sergeants from a Humvee patrolling the border, Israel reflexively demanded "a head for an eye."
"If the soldiers are not released," the IDF chief of staff growled, "we will turn Lebanon's clock back twenty years."

He wasn't kidding. Israeli airstrikes took out bridges, roads, airports, harbors, water and sewage treatment plants, power grids, schools, hospitals, shops and homes. At least 1,000 Lebanese civilians were killed in the campaign, several hundred Hezbollah fighters, and 121 Israeli troops and 43 Israeli civilians. The attempt at escalation dominance -- ratcheting the rocket attacks and kidnappings into a knock-out blow against Hezbollah -- failed. The two kidnapped soldiers were returned -- in a prisoner exchange -- but they were dead. Hezbollah lived on, and has been rearmed.

Israel was condemned for its disproportionate use of force everywhere but the Bush White House.

Operation Cast Lead in Gaza in December 2008-January 2009 repeated the methods of Lebanon. More than a thousand Palestinians were killed -- including hundreds of civilians -- and factories, workshops, mosques, homes and water treatment plants were destroyed.

When Israel escalates and takes a "head for an eye," it no longer enjoys the respect or connivance of the international community."

full article


05 Jun 10 - 06:58 PM (#2921468)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

The parallels between apartheid South Africa and Israel are striking - as is the evidence for co-operation between the two regimes, including nuclear weaponry co-operation - Revealed: how Israel offered to sell South Africa nuclear weapons (From The Guardian a few days ago.)

The case seems clear for an economic, cultural and sporting boycott similar to that which helped to change things for the better in South Africa, for all its people.


05 Jun 10 - 07:12 PM (#2921473)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"That's because the wall was put up by their own government. So who are they going to kill, themselves?"

Yes - well their own subjects anyway.


05 Jun 10 - 09:33 PM (#2921534)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

Another political perspective:
http://www.alarabiya.net/views/2010/06/04/110460.html


05 Jun 10 - 10:04 PM (#2921546)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: t.jack

Well,well,well.Its a little like blah, blah,blah ??Canadas position on this matter of high sea piracy is water off a ducks arse..
The CANADIAN PEOPLE not the rigged media polls are dead against this or any other bulling on the planet..Our democraticly selected bottom feeders have no spine or spunk to dig a good bucket a clams.   
Joe CANADA beer buddy don`t stand a rats ass in addressing this terrible atrocity..Last night on TV Ontario there was a debate by 5 members of a panel regarding this issue they were all Jews??
What am i or Joe CANADA to make out a dis. Am i to listen to this waste of tax dollar ?Are we so blind to come up with some rational conclusion ? or more questions?I am JOE CANADA and i and all of the people i know or ever new which is quite a few do not support this utter garbage that the media throws at us..I tell my Jewish friends that Israeli gives Jews a bad name...


05 Jun 10 - 10:25 PM (#2921558)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: t.jack

I also urge the jews to take a stand ..I will NOT knowingly buy any product or service from Israel ..Get this Our Canadian Gov`t just recently asked Israel to monitor our airports security??
What the F--k is that about?
No more ( MK ) ( TK ) or ( K )food for me, i`ll bless my own
THANK YOU!!


05 Jun 10 - 10:35 PM (#2921562)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

Now Noam Chomsky can be turned back at Niagara.


05 Jun 10 - 10:55 PM (#2921577)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Here's the video that proves the Israelis opened fire first, in a YouTube viewer (which makes it easier to find than the one that was embedded in the large page that I provided before). In it we can see the correspondent saying that there are wounded people on the ship before any of the Israeli terrorists had even left the helicopter...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAuz6HoqV4g

And here's some more information about the killed people (that we know about, there are several people who are still missing). They left behind 28 fatherless children...

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=129187§ionid=351020202


05 Jun 10 - 11:18 PM (#2921590)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

This is "democracy" as it is experienced by Arabs in Israel. This is MK Haneen Zoabi, a Palestinian Israeli, who was aboard the Freedom Flotilla. She was the one who was trying to get help for the wounded by calling for help for them in Hebrew. Her calls for help were ignored by the Israelis, and several people bled to death because of it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRf0aB3BNEY


06 Jun 10 - 12:08 AM (#2921596)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6

Boycott Israeli goods

Cool ... the only consumer goods imported to Canada that I'm aware of are Naot shoes and some brand of matzo ... not in need on any new shoes and passover isn't until next spring ... as if anyone reading this thread buys Naot shoes, and/or that particular brand of matzo or any other made in Israel product.


biLL


06 Jun 10 - 12:11 AM (#2921599)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Do you have Teva sandals there, Bill?


06 Jun 10 - 12:20 AM (#2921600)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6

BTW .... "I tell my Jewish friends that Israeli gives Jews a bad name"

no 'Israeli' doesn't give Jews a bad name ... only the ignorant and antisemitics give Jews a bad name ... the actions of concerns that are the subject of this thread are of the Israeli government ... NOT JEWS.

Unfortunately antisemitics will use the actions of the Israeli government to espouse and promote the hatred of Jews not only in Israel, but worldwide.

biLL


06 Jun 10 - 12:22 AM (#2921602)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6

Do I have Teva sandals ... nope. I wear Mexican handmade huaraches.

Teva must be part of Naots.

biLL


06 Jun 10 - 12:35 AM (#2921604)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Sorry. I didn't mean you specifically. I was wondering if they sold them up where you are. Mexican huaraches are great.


06 Jun 10 - 12:41 AM (#2921608)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6

I haven't seen Tevas for a few years up here.

Mexican huaraches are incredible ..... the rawhide leather and the old tire treads just don't wear out ... comfortable as hell also!

biLL


06 Jun 10 - 01:22 AM (#2921613)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I'm jealous, Bill.


On another note, I'm totally gobsmacked to see something like this in USA Today. I never, never would have expected it...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2010-06-04-bisharat04_ST_N.htm


06 Jun 10 - 01:52 AM (#2921617)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

"But Mr Ovenden told the Morning Star: 'This was a peaceful humanitarian mission in international waters. The youngest person on board was not yet one, the oldest was 88 years old.

'We had no weapons on board. The Israelis are displaying knives taken from the kitchen. People did defend themselves with whatever was at hand.

'The attack started with percussion grenades and we feared they would use tear gas. The Israeli commandos attacked from all sides and began shooting almost immediately, initially with so-called rubber bullets but certainly within two or three minutes we heard the unmistakable sound of live rounds.

'A colleague from Viva Palestina, Nicci Enchmarch, was next to a Turkish man who was holding a camera. He was shot through the middle of the forehead. The exit wound blew away the back of his skull and she cradled him in her arms as he died.'

At least four of those killed were shot through the head, he said.

Mr Ovenden praised the Turkish crew of the vessel as "truly heroic in their attempts to prevent further loss of life," saying they had taken two injured Israeli soldiers inside the ship to prevent them being hurt further in the panic and chaos.

Appeals to the Israeli forces telling them their soldiers were safe and that there were wounded people who needed assistance were ignored, he said."


http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/index.php/news/content/view/full/91138


06 Jun 10 - 07:23 AM (#2921670)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: t.jack

LIKE I SAID   ( ISRAEL )gives jews a bad name..What is this about a jewish State??Does this mean all within is jewish like the good ol boys club passing the talking stick around or lets spin the bottle for our next bottom feeder leader??
Now let me see,everything i eat in CANADA comes form Jewish owned shopping centers,everything i ware comes from jewish owned factories very thing i here and see comes from jewish controlled TV and radio stations. I just got married with a diamond ring from jewish diamond mining company that has devastated the pristine forests of North West Territories ?and how do CANADIANS feel you ask?Is this collective monopoly of goods and services laws ie.(gun control) and law inforcers,and imigration over seen by CANADIANS ? I think not.
The big excuse is to call my facts anti semetic? I think not. The very fact that it is called a jewish state shows how anti EVERYTHING this state is.who calls the kettle black .Anyone for a bagle? Only in CANADA i say??


06 Jun 10 - 07:32 AM (#2921674)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll

"no 'Israel' doesn't give Jews a bad name ... only the ignorant and antisemitics give Jews a bad name"
Unfortunately this isn't true. Sure, there are plenty of anti-Semites around who will use Israel's viciousness to fuel and promote their own bigotry, but hiding behind the 'anti- Semitism' argument to defend that viciousness is despicable. It demeans all the Jews in history who have suffered through real anti-Semitism, most recently those who suffered and died at hands of the Nazis in the ghettos and concentration camps of Europe.
People see Israel as the Jewish State and are bound to equate how they behave there as representative of Judaism, just as here in Ireland, Travellers are judged by the behaviour of the bad ones because that is the public face of itineracy; and for that matter, how the Irish themselves were judged during the recent 'Troubles'.
Acts of State terrorism, piracy, assasination, random executions, the murder of innocent women and children, illegal seizure of territory, torture, the use of chemical weapons on civilians, the deliberate act of destroying peoples' homes, the incarceration of opponents as political prisoners, the persistant abuse of human rights and what verges on ethnic cleansing - criticism of such acts have nothing whatever to do with anti-Semitism; they are an assessment of a repressive regime out of control.
Jim Carroll


06 Jun 10 - 08:46 AM (#2921692)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6

As I said ... only the ignorant and antisemitics give Jews a bad name.

I should rephrase ... ignorant and/or antisemitic.

Jim Carroll ... you are correct .. many people are judged from the political actions of the country of their origin ... I'd say those who do judge as such, would fall under the category of ignorant.

biLL


06 Jun 10 - 08:58 AM (#2921698)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy

'LIKE I SAID   ( ISRAEL )gives jews a bad name..What is this about a jewish State??Does this mean all within is jewish like the good ol boys club passing the talking stick around or lets spin the bottle for our next bottom feeder leader??
Now let me see,everything i eat in CANADA comes form Jewish owned shopping centers,everything i ware comes from jewish owned factories very thing i here and see comes from jewish controlled TV and radio stations. I just got married with a diamond ring from jewish diamond mining company that has devastated the pristine forests of North West Territories ?and how do CANADIANS feel you ask?Is this collective monopoly of goods and services laws ie.(gun control) and law inforcers,and imigration over seen by CANADIANS ? I think not.
The big excuse is to call my facts anti semetic? I think not. The very fact that it is called a jewish state shows how anti EVERYTHING this state is.who calls the kettle black .Anyone for a bagle? Only in CANADA i say?? '

Tamarack jack's post here is a perfect example of the muddle-headedness of some contributors [& also of many of un/ misinformed folk all over]



********


Please, please don't confuse all Jews in other countries [also in Israel] of being perfectly in tune & in favour of their [Israel's] govts policies.

There's clear evidence from many parts of the globe including inside Israel itself of the sheer outrage felt by most fair-minded people.

*********

Confusing the issue this way is similar to labelling all Muslims as terrorists - which they definitely are not, & other national stereotypes based on inter cultural ignorance


06 Jun 10 - 09:06 AM (#2921703)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy

Furthermore, in all honesty, do the mass of any country or nation always agree/ condone / actively support the mandate of their govts all the time, particularly, as in this case, foreign policy.

We all recall the damage the last UK govt did themselves following their acquiescence in following the Bush regime's illegal invasion of Iraq & Afghanistan


06 Jun 10 - 09:11 AM (#2921707)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

The events of 31st May were carried out by The Israeli Defence force on behalf of the Israeli National Government.

The Israeli National Government is made up of those politicians who won the most votes.

It does not represent the views of All Israelis.

It certainly does not represent the views of all Jews.


Tamarack Jack.

It is imortant to be clear about what you boycott.

Boycotting Israeli goods is an legitimate way of inflicting personal sanctions on the Israeli state in protest of its administrations actions.

A blanket boycott of Jewish businesses is not a way of protesting the actions of the Israeli state.

A blanket Boycott of Jewish businesses in Canada or anywhere else outside Israel clearly constitutes Anti-semitism.

The events of May 31st are not an excuse to scapegoat Jews.

I would like to read a clarification from you that you mean to Boycott Israeli goods and not Jewish goods.

If you advocate boycotting all Jewish produce, or scapegoating all Jews in any other way, you can count on full on opposition from me on this thread.

I await your clarification.


06 Jun 10 - 09:19 AM (#2921710)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6

Thank you Mr. Happy, thank you Lox. Right on.


There has been, and currently still is to much hate and anger in this world.

The only hope we have is through understanding, tolerance, humanity and love for our fellow human beings. Only then can these solutions be found.

peace
biLL


06 Jun 10 - 10:02 AM (#2921736)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John MacKenzie

If your neighbour threatened to kill you and wipe you off the face iof this earth, would you be happy to let him fill his house with weapons and explosives?
This is the unfortunate situation that Israel finds itself in.
For anybody from the USA where the right to bear arms is sacrosanct to criticise a countyry for protecting itself from overt threats, would seem to me to be hypocrisy of the highest order.
I'm sure that, like me, the majority of Israelis want peace with Palestine, but until Hamas and their allies in Iran and other Israel hating countries cease their attempts to obliterate Israel, what else can they do?


06 Jun 10 - 10:26 AM (#2921740)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Neither Iran nor the Palestinians want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth, John. What all of them want is for the Palestinians to have all of the same rights as everyone else. And they want the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians to stop.

Remember, it was the Jewish paramilitaries in the months just prior to Israel declaring itself a state, who actually did drive the Palestinians into the sea.


06 Jun 10 - 10:29 AM (#2921743)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

"Neither Iran nor the Palestinians want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth"
How is the accuracy of this statement determined?


06 Jun 10 - 10:36 AM (#2921744)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Hamas has said that they will accept Israel's existence within the pre '67 borders. And Iran has never said or done anything that would even remotely indicate a desire to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.


06 Jun 10 - 10:40 AM (#2921746)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

Questions for consideration (though I suspect this has been debated many times before in Mudcat).

Is it logical for the government in Israel to take the Hamas Charter (elected government of Gaza, and leadership of the Palistians ), and public statements of the leader of Iran seriously? Has the Hamas charter officially changed, since it was established?

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html


06 Jun 10 - 10:42 AM (#2921749)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

As to Iran's leader Is CNN wrong, or has this position changed?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/26/ahmadinejad/


06 Jun 10 - 10:46 AM (#2921752)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll

"I'd say those who do judge as such, would fall under the category of ignorant."
Yes, but understandably so, and (quite apart for its own inhuman activities) Israel has to bear its share of the blame for the image it projects of Judaism.
"This is the unfortunate situation that Israel finds itself in."
No it isn't - it is in the position of having illegally occupied its neighbour's house (using your own analogy) and facing the consequences of having done so. The women and children non-combatants killed and maimed by Israeli weapons should not be part of this, yet they have been deliberately targeted by the occupiers - I think the euphamism created elsewhere is 'collateral damage'.
Jim Carroll


06 Jun 10 - 10:55 AM (#2921755)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Ed, Hamas has indicated that they are willing to accept Israel within its '67 borders. They are not willing to revise their charter until they see some indication that Israel will discontinue its long standing program of wiping the Palestinians off the map.

And that CNN article is a pack of lies (no surprise there). What Ahmadinejad quoted from Khomeini was a prediction that eventually, the zionist regime in Jerusalem will be wiped from the pages of time in the same way that the Soviet Union was. He neither mentioned wiping Israel from the map, nor called for anything whatever to be done to Israel. And Komeini is right about that. The zionist regime is in the process of self-destructing right now. It doesn't have very much time left.


06 Jun 10 - 11:13 AM (#2921759)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

"Hamas has indicated that they are willing to accept Israel within its '67 borders. They are not willing to revise their charter until they see some indication that Israel will discontinue its long standing program of wiping the Palestinians off the map"

So, where has Israel stated they will "wipe the Palestinians off the map'? (Could some folks be doing what they claim CNN has done)?

This alonbe lies a logical divide and what seems to be a good basis of distrust on both sides.

The CNN story I linked to was widely reported in the media world-wide, and commented on by many national governments, with the same interpretation. It seems quite clear (and,easily interpreted as a threat< if you are on the receiving lines) and if it was inaccurate, where is the later Iran leadership clearification? Sorry, CarolC, I suspect Iran speaks for itself, so sources, rather than outside interpretations, are important. Governments rarely make statements that can be interpreted as treats by another nation, unless they mean it as such.

Seems like a good reason to be concerned, if you


06 Jun 10 - 11:15 AM (#2921760)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

The rest of my last sentence:

Seems like a good reason to be concerned, if you could be on the receiving end?


06 Jun 10 - 11:16 AM (#2921761)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy

http://www.freegaza.org/


06 Jun 10 - 11:22 AM (#2921762)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

"Israel has to bear its share of the blame for the image it projects of Judaism."

Apart from the appalling humanitarian crisis brought about by the blockade of Gaza .....

Settlements on occupied territory are illegal under international law and even Israeli military lawyers decreed that settlements are illegal when the government first started to allow construction after the 1967 war.

Today, half a million Israelis - 10% of the Jewish population - live in illegal settlements.

In the past, U.S. administration would utter words about stopping settlements but then never follow with pressure. Israelis took this as a green light and continued with construction.

Obama initially attempted to break that tide by ruling out any new construction even for the Israeli euphemism of "natural growth".
However, Defense Minister Ehud Barak in June 2009 nevertheless responded by authorizong the building of 300 new homes in the West Bank, defying U.S. calls for a halt to settlement growth.

The new construction is located around 13 kilometers east of the Green Line, on the "Palestinian" side of the separation barrier. According to the Sasson Report, this outpost was built without government approval and without a master plan and damaged private Palestinian property.

British citizens - following real estate fairs in recent years in London and Manchester that have advertised properties for sale in Israeli settlements such as Maale Adumim and Har Homa (both in the West Bank) - were to be formally advised by the government not to buy property in settlements in the Israeli-occupied Palestinian territories
The UK government has long insisted that settlements beyond the pre-1967 war "green line" border, including East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights — both of which have been annexed by Israel — are illegal.

Settler violence has frequently caused concern.

The Israeli government depicts violent settlers as aberrant citizens engaged in rogue behaviour. But a report released by the UN's Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) says these ultranationalists have been encouraged by the state to take over Palestinian land and natural resources.

Proponents of the settlements in the occupied terrorties argue that the settlements are actually supporting the US

"Israel is fully entitled to expand existing settlements or build new ones in the disputed territories.
Netanyahu is to be commended for resisting intense international pressure in order to engage in the former and to reserve the right to undertake the latter after final status negotiations have been completed.
By so doing, he is engaging in the well-established Israeli practice of strengthening its physical position in strategic regions, increasing Israel's self-defence capability and undergirding US interests in the region by enhancing the security of America's most reliable ally in the region."

to the historical / religious 'right' to the land

"The so-called West Bank, according to the Bible and tradition, represents the cradle of Jewish civilization, and some Jews, driven by faith and history, wanted to reassert that link"
"The Land of Israel belongs to the Jewish People as the Bible and the God of Israel has indicated......The solution to terror is thus not erecting a fence but completely destroying the Palestinazi Authority; expelling all supporters of terror and reinstalling Jewish-Israeli control and sovereignty over all of Judea, Samaria and Gaza."

The Israeli leadership continues to defy countless UN resolutions pertaining to its policies


06 Jun 10 - 11:24 AM (#2921764)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Ed, Israel has been in the process of wiping the Palestinians from the map since before it even declared itself a state. It is still doing this in a slow motion ethnic cleansing and genocide. They don't need to state their intention to do it, they just do it, and have been for decades. We don't need to see a declaration of intent from them to know that this is what they are doing. We only need to see what they have been doing and continue to do.


I have already provided more than ample documentation on the subject of the Ahmadinejad quote. But I will go ahead and round it up again just for you.


06 Jun 10 - 11:33 AM (#2921769)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

On the subject of saying that Israel gives Jews a bad name, I also disagree with statements like this. I think that they arise from ignorance most of the time, and sometimes from anti-Semitism. But I think the ignorance can be understood, to some extent, because Israel is so often conflated with Judaism by Israel itself, and by many diaspora Jews.

People who criticize Israel are almost always called anti-Semitic by many Jews. This is a conflation of Israel and Jews generally. And when this happens, it is rare for Jews to come to the defense of the person who has been attacked in this way. So while I totally disagree with the premise that Israel makes Jews look bad, I understand how such ignorance can take place.

I have been attacked many, many times here in the Mudcat by Jews as being anti-Semitic because of my criticism of the government of Israel. I don't recall ever seeing any Jews come to my defense to say that Israel and "the Jews" should not be conflated in this way. Perhaps if more Jews were to do this, fewer people who aren't Jewish would conflate Israel with Jews generally.


06 Jun 10 - 11:37 AM (#2921773)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

Israel has been in the process of wiping the Palestinians from the map since before it even declared itself a state. It is still doing this in a slow motion ethnic cleansing and genocide. They don't need to state their intention to do it, they just do it, and have been for decades. We don't need to see a declaration of intent from them to know that this is what they are doing. We only need to see what they have been doing and continue to do"

CarolC

Well, I suspect this is your, and many other opinions, which is OK.
However, we were discussing a quote that was reported to be made, that is suggested gives grounds for concern in Israel. (this was in reference to another post, where someone stated Israel has reason to duistrust the Palistinians ((Hamas is the leader) and Iran. Then you jump to a personal opinion. In doing so, it could easily lead to a conclusion that domeone representing the Israel leadership has said this, which I suspect could be seen as a tactic that you frown on CNN for doing.

There are few who suggest that Hamas and the Palistinians have a good reason to distrust the Isrel government. The suggestion was that Israel (the government) also has a good reason to distrust Palistian officials, and Iran (which is a major supporter of Hamas, (the majority factor in the elected government, I believe).


06 Jun 10 - 11:52 AM (#2921778)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

"So what did Ahmadinejad actually say? To quote his exact words in Farsi:

"Imam ghoft een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad."

That passage will mean nothing to most people, but one word might ring a bell: rezhim-e. It is the word "regime." pronounced just like the English word with an extra "eh" sound at the end. Ahmadinejad did not refer to Israel the country or Israel the land mass, but the Israeli regime. This is a vastly significant distinction, as one cannot wipe a regime off the map. Ahmadinejad does not even refer to Israel by name, he instead uses the specific phrase "rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods" (regime occupying Jerusalem).

So this raises the question.. what exactly did he want "wiped from the map"? The answer is: nothing. That's because the word "map" was never used. The Persian word for map, "nagsheh" is not contained anywhere in his original Farsi quote, or, for that matter, anywhere in his entire speech. Nor was the western phrase "wipe out" ever said. Yet we are led to believe that Iran's president threatened to "wipe Israel off the map." despite never having uttered the words "map." "wipe out" or even "Israel."

The Proof:

The full quote translated directly to English:

"The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time."

Word by word translation:

Imam (Khomeini) ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods (Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-ye ruzgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from)."

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/norouzi.php?articleid=11025



"Ahmadinejad once again fails to call for the annihilation of Israel, despite what you heard on CNN
Posted on February 27, 2010 by Juan

I saw Israeli Ambassador Michael Oren interviewed by Wolf Blitzer on CNN Friday afternoon. Oren said that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had called for the annihilation of Israel, and was therefore speaking of genocide.

It is dreary to see this constant drumbeat of dishonest propaganda. Whatever one thinks of Ahmadinejad or the Iranian regime, one should not misrepresent their statements, since that will lead to bad policy-making.

The Washington Post also wrote, "Ahmadinejad, a Holocaust denier, spoke of Israel's eventual "demise and annihilation". In fact, Ahmadinejad never mentioned Israel as a country at all, and spoke only about what he called the 'Zionist regime.' He favors an admittedly odd form of the 'one state solution' in which Palestinians and at least some Jews would all vote for the same government.

So this is what Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Thursday at a press conference in Damascus:

"Iran, Syria, the Palestinian Resistance and Lebanon are ready to meet any conditions, and we hope that the enemies of the nations of the region will change their course and instead walk beside regional states in cooperation. Insofar as the Zionist regime threatens Lebanon and Syria and prominent personalities of these two countries every day, it must accept its end and grant in their entirety the rights of the Palestinian nation."

That is, Ahmadinejad began by offering an olive branch to any former enemies that wanted to make peace. But he characterized the 'Zionist regime,' i.e. the Israeli government with its current ideology, as intrinsically belligerent, and insisted that this 'regime' must 'accept its own end' and grant Palestinians their full rights (presumably, citizenship and property rights, which they now lack)."

http://www.juancole.com/2010/02/ahmadinejad-once-again-fails-to-call.html


06 Jun 10 - 11:55 AM (#2921780)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Ed, your post that appears just before my last post makes no sense at all.

I told you I would provide sources for what I said about Ahmadinejad. Had you been willing to exhibit some patience, you would have been rewarded. The material is in my last post.


On the subject of the Palestinians and ethnic cleansing, well, if you think words trump actions, then I think that you are living in a fantasy world.


06 Jun 10 - 12:20 PM (#2921786)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-06-04/henning-mankell-diary-of-the-gaza-flotilla-israel/


06 Jun 10 - 12:32 PM (#2921788)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll

"So, where has Israel stated they will "wipe the Palestinians off the map'?"
They don't have to, they are in the process of doing so - watch your television; see the tanks obliterating homes, watch thephospherus bombing, the daily oppression and humiliation......
I would take your point a little more seriously if I could find one word of condemnation of the genocide of Palestinians and all the other war crimes committed by the Israeli Army.
Similarly, the Jewish people would be in a far mor credible position if they turned out in their thousands to protest what is being done in the name of Judaism.
As has been stated on numerous occasions - this is not a defensive war on the part of Israel, it is a territorial war waged against the Palestinian people and the main victims are civilians.
Jim Carroll


06 Jun 10 - 12:36 PM (#2921790)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

Well CaroleC, is it reasonable that the Israel government would consider either statement, a reason to trust Iran?...as the earlier post (where the current discussion started), contended. And, not I use the word reasonable.


06 Jun 10 - 12:36 PM (#2921791)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2010/jun/05/gaza-flotilla-protesters-story?CMP=twt_gu


06 Jun 10 - 12:36 PM (#2921792)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

In deploring the construction of the Apartheid Wall and attempting to being to the attention of others the increasing humanitarian crisis in Gaza I too have been labelled anti-semitic by people in this forum.

Far worse, however, is the treatment of those Jewish people throughout the world and in Israel who have also sought to criticise the actions of the Israeli Government.

These courageous people have been labelled 'self-hating' Jews and traitors; eZion calls them
"Jewish Anti-Zionists - The Uncle Yankel Jews"

"....a particular feature of the new European anti-Semitism that has been less commented on. This is the crucial role played by some European Jews themselves, mostly intellectuals or academics, who have responded to the latest assault on the Jewish people by excusing it, justifying it, and in effect joining it.

For the most part, those answering it have been not the long-term, all-out, rabid haters of Israel of the Harold Pinter or (in American terms) Noam Chomsky stripe, who need no excuse and waste no pieties in reviling the Jewish state. "


Dr. Hajo Meyer, a holocaust survivor, spoke in Dublin earlier this year about the lesson he learned from the Nazi Holocaust, which was that "only those who are themselves dehumanised can attempt to dehumanise others, for example to inflict sufferings such as collective punishment. I personally never want to inflict suffering on anybody."
This 86 years old, peace loving humanitarian Jewish scholar human rights activist has been labelled an anti-Semite !

Yael Kahn has described the treatment Dr Meyer received at the hands of pro Israeli Zionists in when speaking in Portcullis House on 27 Jan 10, on Holocaust Memorial Day
He reported that he 'never witnessed such contempt and disrespect to a Holocaust survivor. It is inconceivable that such conduct would have not been labelled anti-Semitic by the same people who were doing the attacking, had Dr Meyer not been anti-Zionist.

It was a personal reminder of an attack on my father, who, like Dr Meyer, grew up in Nazi Germany. My father, Michael Kahn, escaped Nazi Germany in 1937. In 1988 my father joined us at a weekly protest at Dizengoff Circle [in Tel Aviv] against Israeli attacks on Palestinians. He was singled out by Zionist Israelis, who told him in Hebrew: "shame the Nazis didn't finish you off".'

Back in 2002 a peaceful protest by Jewish women was reported as -
"Women In Green will demonstrate at the Rose Garden in Jerusalem (opposite the office of the Prime Minister) during the time the Cabinet is in session on Sunday, against the building of a ghetto wall in the heartland of historic Israel.

The futile act is one that disgraces the dignity and nobility of the Jewish People, and makes a mockery of its basic national aspirations"

This all, as has been said, conflates anti-Zionism with anti-semitism,

defines legitimate criticism of Israel too narrowly ,

Trivializes the meaning and very real existence of anti-semitism,

AND exploits anti-semitism in order to silence debate.


06 Jun 10 - 12:37 PM (#2921793)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""The Israeli government depicts violent settlers as aberrant citizens engaged in rogue behaviour.""

Then they should have no difficulty in accepting Hamas' assurances that the primitive rockets, devoid of any guidance mechanism, which randomly impact mostly on empty fields in Israel, are being fired by a small number of militants over whom Hamas has no oversight or control.

After all, what's sauce for the goose,...........

Don T.


06 Jun 10 - 12:38 PM (#2921795)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Well CaroleC, is it reasonable that the Israel government would consider either statement, a reason to trust Iran?...as the earlier post (where the current discussion started), contended. And, not I use the word reasonable.

I don't think the actual statement is any reason whatever to try to convince the world that Iran is any threat whatever to Israel. To do so is the height of dishonesty, and it shows that Israel has its own reasons for wanting to eliminate the current regime in Iran that have nothing whatever to do with Israel's safety.


06 Jun 10 - 12:44 PM (#2921798)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Flotilla passengers providing aid to wounded Israeli pirate


06 Jun 10 - 12:47 PM (#2921800)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

What that last picture shows is the need for Israel to release all of the pictures and video footage that were taken by the flotilla members. Anything short of that is an admission of guilt on the part of the Israeli government.


06 Jun 10 - 12:52 PM (#2921804)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

I condem any military acts against Palestinian civilians, Israeli civilians, civilians of Iraq and Afganistan former Russian territories, the Balkins, and bombing from aircraft, tanks, solders, suicide bombers, rockets, artiliary, drones, committed by any government or military, regardless.And I have no pet causes or civilians that I reserve my condemnation for.


06 Jun 10 - 01:02 PM (#2921813)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I have actually seen this Facebook group's page myself...

An israeli group on Facebook asks for the execution of the M.K Haneen Zoabi


06 Jun 10 - 01:02 PM (#2921815)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""I condem any military acts against Palestinian civilians, Israeli civilians, civilians of Iraq and Afganistan former Russian territories, the Balkins, and bombing from aircraft, tanks, solders, suicide bombers, rockets, artiliary, drones, committed by any government or military, regardless.And I have no pet causes or civilians that I reserve my condemnation for.""

Very laudable in itself, and I would, in principle, subscribe to that view, just as long as it is not being used as a cop-out to avoid addressing specific incidents, such as government sponsored piracy and murder on the high seas.

Captain Morgan would have been so impressed.

I however am not, and I shall continue to say so very loudly, until somebody makes a move to control the international actions of the ISRAELI (not Jewish) GOVERNMENT.

I will purchase nothing grown in, manufactured in, or shipped from, Israel, until they mend their ways.

I hope that there will be many millions more like me.

Let's see what their response is to their oranges rotting in the fields.

Don T.


06 Jun 10 - 01:04 PM (#2921817)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

That's nice Ed. In case you misunderstood my post, I was saying that it is the height of dishonesty on the part of the government of Israel and it shows an agenda on the part of the government of Israel that has nothing whatever to do with Israel's safety. Those comments were not directed at you.


06 Jun 10 - 01:10 PM (#2921821)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

More theft from the Palestinians by the government of Israel...


http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/06/05/poor-gaza-wealthy-in-natural-gas/

"Why the slaughter of ready and willing to die, dirt poor Palestinians?

It appears the Freedom Flotilla sailing to Gaza would go through a thicket of off shore oil and gas rigs and wells. The wells are sucking an estimated minimum of US$6 Billion Dollars of Palestinian off shore Natural Gas through rigs set up for slant drilling.

From Peter Eyre The Palestine Telegraph Tue, 08 Sep 2009 14:29 EDT

The drilling consultant on the hidden project is the former Noble Drilling Company of Ardmore, Oklahoma, USA, experts in "oil field management." They are also allegedly experts in illegal slant drilling techniques Noble pioneered in the early Oklahoma oil fields back in the day.

Slant drilling is the best way to steal your neighbors' oil and gas.

So much so that the formerly oil and gas poor Israel of Prime Minister Golda Meir is now floating the idea of Natural Gas exports to the European Union (EU) of presumably Palestinian Natural Gas."


06 Jun 10 - 01:20 PM (#2921826)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

More aid flotillas are on the way. According to reports I'm seeing, one is supposed to leave next Friday.


06 Jun 10 - 02:25 PM (#2921868)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John MacKenzie

They will still be stopped, they need to check for weapons and explosives.
Israel cannot afford to let explosives disguised as bags of sugar and the like into Gaza.
It has happened before.
BTW it is legal to stop a ship in international waters, if you have good reason to suspect they are smuggling weapons or explosives.
So it isn't technically piracy, as someone said it is, earlier.
I agree that things need to improve, but you need less intransigence on BOTH sides for any peace plan to work.


06 Jun 10 - 02:31 PM (#2921869)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll

"I condem any military acts against Palestinian civilians, Israeli civilians......."
Fine - so do the rest of us - so where does this Anti Semitic crap come from?
Now how do you feel about the Israelis occupying Palestinian territory for 40-odd years?
Jim Carroll


06 Jun 10 - 03:01 PM (#2921885)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

John, more and more flotillas will come, and they will get bigger and bigger, and more and more people will be on them. Every time Israel stops the flotillas, they piss off more and more people. They can't win. It's over already, the only people who haven't yet figured this out are the Israeli government and its supporters.


06 Jun 10 - 03:13 PM (#2921892)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Here's more pictures of aid workers providing protection and care to the Israeli terrorist pirates. But instead of recognizing these conscientious humanitarian acts, the government of Israel accuses them of trying to "lynch" the Israeli terrorists and saying that they tried to kidnap them when the aid workers took them below decks to provide first aid...

http://aliabunimah.posterous.com/blog-post-israel-hasbara-fails-again-pics-sho


The government of Israel ALWAYS lies. It ALWAYS commits vicious smarmy character assassinations to help it promote its fascist agenda. ALWAYS. The government of Israel can NEVER be believed. Not EVER.


06 Jun 10 - 03:19 PM (#2921897)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

How about tins of fruit and musical instruments and bags of cement?

A ban on the import of any weapons or explosives to Gaza, the West Bank and also to Israel, now that would make sense.


06 Jun 10 - 03:22 PM (#2921901)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

"Fine - so do the rest of us - so where does this Anti Semitic crap come from?"

I am not anti sematic, but, some here sure seem to lean that way.


06 Jun 10 - 03:23 PM (#2921902)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Well, hell, McGrath, if they want to defend Israel from Hamas, I guess they're going to have to prevent any food from getting in, since that can be used to feed members of Hamas and keep them alive.


06 Jun 10 - 03:27 PM (#2921906)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I am not anti sematic, but, some here sure seem to lean that way.

This is precisely the kind of thing I'm talking about. Nobody here has said anything that can be remotely construed as an attack on Jews or an expression of hatred towards Jews (with one possible exception that skirts rather close to the line). But Ed is once again making insinuations that people are because of the criticism of the government of Israel in this thread.

So which is it, Ed? Is criticism of the government of Israel an act anti-Semitism? Because if you're saying it is, then you are saying that there is no difference between the government of Israel and Jews generally. You are saying that whatever the government of Israel does is a reflection on all Jews. Do you really intend to make this assertion?


06 Jun 10 - 03:44 PM (#2921918)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll

"I am not anti sematic, but, some here sure seem to lean that way."
So far the only anti-Semitism to appear on this thread has been the accusations of same in postings such as this one.
Once again CarolC said it all - perhaps you would like to be a little more specific in your accusation.
As somebody who grew up in an anti-racist household I find myself highly contemptuous of chancers who use such accusations to defend the indefencible.
And I would like an answer to my previous question (regarding 40 odd years occupation of Palestinian land) - but I don't suppose I'll get one.
Jim Carroll


06 Jun 10 - 03:50 PM (#2921919)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

Jim Carroll posted:

"I would take your point a little more seriously if I could find one word of condemnation of the genocide of Palestinians and all the other war crimes committed by the Israeli Army".

"Genocide"-The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of an entire national, racial, religious, or ethnic group. Free online dictionary


In a recent issue of Foreign Affairs....it said that the number of Jews around the world is estimated at 13.1 million, of which 5.4 million live in Israel proper and Israeli settlements in the West Bank.

The total number of Palestinians is estimated at 10.6 million, including 1.4 million in Israel proper, 3.8 million in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, 2.4 million in Jordan, and 3 million in Syria, Lebanon, and elsewhere around the world. (some say that, "by all definitions, 70 percent of Jordon's citizens are Arab Palestinians).

Thus, the overall population in historical Palestine is estimated at 10.6 million, of which 49 percent are Arabs and 51 percent Jews.

I agree, there is alot of very loose of terms (aka crap) and sensational statements on this tread, and it is good to identify it as such, when and where the brown stuff is posted....though it may not be popular by those wishing to spread it among the faithful:)


Source for figures above:

By all definitions, 70 percent of its citizens are Arab Palestinians.


06 Jun 10 - 03:54 PM (#2921920)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

The legal definition of genocide is quite different from that one, Ed. That's another thing I have posted here numerous times.

What Israel is doing in Gaza fits the legal definition of genocide. I don't have time now, but I will provide the documentation later on.


06 Jun 10 - 03:55 PM (#2921921)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

Legal, as decided by whom?


06 Jun 10 - 03:59 PM (#2921924)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

When it is asserted that all criticism of Israel is "antisemitic", the implication is that Jews everywhere are to be identified with Israel.

The implication of that is that Jews everywhere are responsible for the actions of Israel.

And that is very clearly an antisemitic lie.

In other words, the assertion that all criticism of Israel is antisemitic is itself antisemitic.


06 Jun 10 - 04:01 PM (#2921927)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

Ok, another definition below. It still does not fit:

Resolution 260 (III) United Nations:
Article 2
In the present UN Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Article 3


06 Jun 10 - 04:03 PM (#2921929)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

"the assertion that all criticism of Israel is antisemitic is itself antisemitic". That's a good one, LOL


06 Jun 10 - 04:08 PM (#2921932)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

"Mahmoud Ahmadinejad would not give a direct answer, nor clearify his statement on Israel, when questioned in Lally Weymouth's Washington Post interview in September 2006:

"Q: Are you really serious when you say that Israel should be wiped off the face of the Earth?

"A: We need to look at the scene in the Middle East – 60 years of war, 60 years of displacement, 60 years of conflict, not even a day of peace. Look at the war in Lebanon, the war in Gaza – what are the reasons for these conditions? We need to address and resolve the root problem.

"Q: Your suggestion is to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth?

"A: Our suggestion is very clear:... Let the Palestinian people decide their fate in a free and fair referendum, and the result, whatever it is, should be accepted.... The people with no roots there are now ruling the land.

"Q: You've been quoted as saying that Israel should be wiped off the face of the Earth. Is that your belief?

"A: What I have said has made my position clear. If we look at a map of the Middle East from 70 years ago...

"Q: So, the answer is yes, you do believe that it should be wiped off the face of the Earth?

"A: Are you asking me yes or no? Is this a test? Do you respect the right to self-determination for the Palestinian nation? Yes or no? Is Palestine, as a nation, considered a nation with the right to live under humane conditions or not? Let's allow those rights to be enforced for these 5 million displaced people."


06 Jun 10 - 04:11 PM (#2921933)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic

someone with some sense weighs in. . .
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The Ballgame and the Sideshow
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
Published: June 4, 2010

When I covered the 1982 Lebanon war, I learned something surprising about wars: they attract all kinds of spectators, meddlers, do-gooders and do-badders. They use the conflict and the attention it generates to play out their own identity issues, passions and biases. My favorite in Beirut was a gentleman who showed up in August 1982 as the Palestinian guerrillas were sailing out of Beirut harbor. His name — I am not making this up — was Arthur Blessitt, the "Sunset Boulevard Preacher." He had walked to West Beirut from Israel to pray for peace, dragging a 13-foot-long wooden cross with a little wheel on the bottom.


Arthur was harmless; some of the others, though, were mendacious, which prompted me to promulgate this rule: I adore the Israelis and Palestinians, but God save me from some of their European and American friends. Their grandstanding interventions — like those blockade-busters sailing to Gaza or the wealthy American Jews who fund extremist settlers' housing purchases in Arab East Jerusalem — often fuel the worst trends on either side and divert our energies from the only thing that is important: forging a two-state solution.

So is there anything good happening in that regard? Yes. The effort by the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, and Prime Minister Salam Fayyad to build the institutional foundations of a Palestinian state from the ground up — replacing the corrupt, jerry-built structure that Yasir Arafat created and Israel destroyed — is actually making progress. This matters — and must be nurtured.

You see, there are two models of Arab governance. The old Nasserite model, which Hamas still practices, where leaders say: "Judge me by how I resist Israel or America." And: "First we get a state, then we build the institutions." The new model, pioneered in the West Bank by Abbas and Fayyad is: "Judge me by how I perform — how I generate investment and employment, deliver services and pick up the garbage. First we build transparent and effective political and security institutions. Then we declare a state. That is what the Zionists did, and it sure worked for them."

The most important thing going on in this conflict today is that since 2007 the Palestinian Authority, Jordan and the U.S. have partnered to train a whole new West Bank Palestinian security force in policing, administration and even human rights. The program is advised by U.S. Lt. Gen. Keith Dayton — one of the unsung good guys. The Israeli Army has become impressed enough by the performance of the new Palestinian National Security Force, or N.S.F., under Abbas and Fayyad that those forces are now largely responsible for law and order in all the major West Bank towns, triggering an explosion of Palestinian building, investment and commerce in those areas.

Here are highlights: the Jordanians have trained and the Palestinian Authority deployed and equipped five N.S.F. battalions and one Presidential Guard unit, some 3,100 men. Plus, 65 Palestinian first-responders have been trained and are being equipped with emergency gear. A Palestinian National Training Center, with classrooms and dorms, is nearing completion in Jericho so the Palestinians themselves can take over the training. The Palestinian Authority is building a 750-man N.S.F. camp to garrison the new N.S.F. troops — including barracks, gym and parade ground — near Jenin. At the same time, the Palestinian security headquarters are all being rebuilt in every major Palestinian town, starting in Hebron. An eight-week senior leadership training course in Jericho — bringing together the Palestinian police, the N.S.F. and Presidential Guards — has graduated 280 people, including 20 women.

A course for captains and below in how to handle everything from crowd control to elections has also begun. The reinvigorated Palestinian Ministry of Interior is leading the Palestinian security sector transformation, and the Canadians are helping to set up Joint Operations Centers across the West Bank so all Palestinian security services can coordinate via video conferencing. The Canadians are also helping the Palestinians to build a logistics center. Parallel with all this, Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu has reduced Israel's manned checkpoints in the West Bank from 42 to 12.

This won't be politically sustainable for Abbas and Fayyad, though, unless Israel begins to turn full authority over to the Palestinians for their major cities — so-called area A — in the West Bank. Palestinians have to see their new security services as building their state, not cushioning Israel's occupation. There could be a moment of truth here for Israel soon, but at least it will be based on something real.

In sum, this dynamic — Palestinians building real institutions from the ground up and getting Israel to cede to them real authority — is the ballgame. Make it work across the West Bank and find a way to transfer it to Gaza (how about reopening the Israel-Gaza border and letting the new Palestinian N.S.F. control the passages to Israel?) and a two-state solution is possible. Let it fail, and we'll have endless conflict. Everything else is just a sideshow.


06 Jun 10 - 04:27 PM (#2921942)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

All of these criteria fit, Ed.

In the present UN Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;


06 Jun 10 - 04:38 PM (#2921949)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

One thing that a lot of people don't seem to understand is that this last flotilla contained several members of parliament, including European members of parliament, and also at least two Nobel Prize winners, and a veteran of the USS Liberty who was wounded in Israel's attack on that ship. And there were also popular media people and authors. These are not people who can easily be characterized the way the Israeli government has tried to characterize them, and the people from their home countries are not only pissed off that they were attacked by the Israeli terrorists in the first place, but they are pissed off even more about the Israeli government's libels against them. It is the Israeli government's arrogance that will ultimately cause its destruction. Because of what happened this last time, the number of people who are extremely eager to participate in future flotillas has skyrocketed. This, despite the fact that they know they risk their lives if they do so.

It's all over but the shouting.


06 Jun 10 - 04:44 PM (#2921954)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John MacKenzie

Bandwagon jumpers cannot hope to be taken seriously. It's a life or death situation, not a stroll down 5th Avenue.
If the REALLY want to change things, let them stand in front of the tanks and guns, not take a sea cruise that they know will end in a free flight home!


06 Jun 10 - 04:48 PM (#2921957)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

John, the people for whom it is a life and death situation are the people in Gaza who are dying because of the blockade.

The government of Israel assumes these people won't be taken seriously at their peril. They have pissed off the whole world. Their days are numbered.


06 Jun 10 - 04:52 PM (#2921962)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

The United Nations, on Hamas and the incitement (of hate) and to commit genocide against Israel, Judaism and Jews:

"With the Hamas Charter now binding the Palestinian leadership, its call for the destruction of a Member State of the United Nations is in contravention to Article 2 (4) of the 1945 UN Charter. Article 3 (c) of the 1948 Genocide Convention condemns "direct and public incitement to commit genocide," which is punishable under its article 4. The grave situation in Gaza – and not only in Gaza – is linked to the Hamas Charter of religious and racial hatred, which merits debate at the Human Rights Council as soon as possible".
United Nations, HUMAN RIGHTS COUNCIL, First special session
5 July 2006

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/F35F56D79C729663852571CA006C0F4E


06 Jun 10 - 04:53 PM (#2921963)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

robomatic, I'd like to underline this sentence in T. L. Friedman's article: "I adore the Israelis and Palestinians, but God save me from some of their European and American friends".


06 Jun 10 - 05:09 PM (#2921968)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

And yet, more than 100 Palestinians are killed for every Israeli killed, Ed. If we can do business with a genocidal terrorist state like Israel, then we can also do business with Hamas.


06 Jun 10 - 06:09 PM (#2922004)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Roberto, Israeli 'historians' have re-written history: "All of the Europeans and Americans who profess the Jewish religion have roots in the Palestinian region."

Perhaps it is time for natives of UK to throw out those Normans and others who have no right to be there.
And time for North American indigenous peoples to don warpaint again.


06 Jun 10 - 06:22 PM (#2922009)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

John,

"If the REALLY want to change things, let them stand in front of the tanks and guns, not take a sea cruise that they know will end in a free flight home!"

1. 9 people died on the Mavi Marmara, so to describe them as taking a sea cruise with a guaranteed safe flight home is ignorant crap.

2. The flotilla and the IDF action against it has brought more publicity to the region than thousands of dead palestinians have managed to.

In fact, the more palestinians who die, the more the west becomes numb to it.

3. The ship "Rachel Corrie" is named after a young american girl who stood in front of a bulldozer, only for the driver to deliberately drive over her.

Guess how much international impact this had?

None.

So to recap, The flotilla is proving to be the most effewctive protest yet, and 2, your cmments about Bandwagons are ignorant crap.


06 Jun 10 - 06:31 PM (#2922013)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic

The Israelis are in their ancestral homeland therefore it's as if the Indians were able to reclaim their lands and yet had to deal with them pesky European squatters. The squatters found some guy in a university who reckoned that yes, the Indians after hundreds of years of displacement and resettlement had done some race-mixing therefore they were no longer Indians how dare they yet the Indians knew all along who they were and where they belonged and acted accordingly.


06 Jun 10 - 06:36 PM (#2922016)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Sorcha

Don't forget that the Palestinians are ALSO in THEIR ancetral homeland.

And SOME Indians have managed to regain control of 'homelands'. Us pesky Europeans be damned. I wish they could get MORE back!


06 Jun 10 - 06:37 PM (#2922017)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Yes, that's a very good point, Lox.

If the REALLY want to change things, let them stand in front of the tanks and guns

They are already standing in front of the tanks and guns and getting killed and maimed by the Israeli military in disturbingly high numbers. Lox mentioned Rachel Corrie. She is only the most well known of the human rights workers who have been deliberately killed or maimed by the Israeli military. There are many others. You really need to crawl out of that hole in which you appear to be hiding, John, and take a look around at what is really happening.


06 Jun 10 - 06:38 PM (#2922019)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Suit yourself, robomatic. Write your own history of the world if you want to. But pull up a chair and get yourself some popcorn. You're going to need it.


06 Jun 10 - 06:40 PM (#2922020)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

"More than 100 Palestinians are killed for every Israeli killed"

What was the ratio for the UN Alies Kuwait-Iraq, or and UA-Iraq conflict?

CarolC
Will you tell a family that the loss of their loved one was not as significant, because it was on a lower ratio-kill scale.


06 Jun 10 - 06:59 PM (#2922025)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

James Henry Dominic Miller (18 December 1968 - 2 May 2003)

was a Welsh cameraman, producer, and director, and recipient of numerous awards, including five Emmy Awards.
He often worked with Saira Shah with whom he founded and operated an independent production company called Frostbite Productions in 2001. He was killed by a single shot fired by a soldier from the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) on 2 May 2003 while filming a documentary in Rafah. The soldier who shot him was identified in the press as Captain Hib al-Heib.

The Israeli Military Police investigation into Miller's death closed on 9 March 2005 with an announcement that the soldier suspected of firing the shot would not be indicted as they could not establish that his shot was responsible, though he would be disciplined for violating the rules of engagement and for changing his account of the incident.
On 6 April 2006, the inquest jury at St Pancras Coroner's Court in London returned a verdict of unlawful killing, finding that Miller had been "murdered."

After meetings with the Miller family, the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, sent a formal request to his Israeli counterpart in June 2007 for prosecution proceedings to be enacted within six weeks against the soldier responsible for firing the shot

Miller's sister, Anne Waddington, was interviewed by the BBC on the morning of 7 August 2007, the day the six-week deadline was due to expire. She said, "Unfortunately, we have had four and a half extremely painful years of experiencing the Israeli tactics, and they are the masters of delay - they have always played for time, and they have always failed to deliver." She added, "The Israelis put out a lot of false and misleading statements immediately after my brother was murdered, and they did try to suggest he was killed by a Palestinian in the back and as a result of crossfire, but they put out many, many lies and false stories, which of course have been shown not only on the APTN video footage of the actual murder, but also through eyewitness testimony and the additional evidence which was very, very clear at the time." Asked whether she used the word "murder" very deliberately, she replied, "Yes I do, and of course the jury in the inquest last year found, very unusually, that it wasn't just unlawful killing, it was actually murder



Thomas "Tom" Hurndall (27 November 1981 – 13 January 2004)

was a British photography student, a volunteer for the International Solidarity Movement (ISM), and an activist against the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories. On 11 April 2003, he was shot in the head in the Gaza Strip by an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) sniper, Taysir Hayb. Hurndall was left in a coma and died nine months later.

The IDF initially refused more than a routine internal inquiry, which concluded that Hurndall was shot accidentally in the crossfire, and suggested that his group's members were essentially functioning as human shields.[citation needed] However, witnesses at the demonstration in the Palestinian town of Rafah said he had been hit by a rifle bullet while trying to shield the children rather than having been merely hit in the crossfire, and Hurndall's parents demanded an investigation

Idier Wahid Taysir Hayb (or al-Heib), whose sister Amira al Hayb is the first female Bedouin soldier in the IDF, claimed, he had shot at a man in military fatigues although photographic evidence clearly showed Hurndall was wearing a bright orange jacket denoting he was a foreigner. Hayb was an award-winning marksman and his rifle had a telescopic sight. He claimed to have aimed four inches from Hurndall's head, "but he moved". Hayb said a policy of shooting at unarmed civilians existed at the time

Tom Hurndall's family and their legal team were denied access to the military police report which led to the trial. After an appeal to the Israeli Supreme Court, the state prosecution offered access to the report to the legal team, but not the Hurndall family, in early August. According to a spokesman for the Tom Hurndall Foundation, this will allow them to decide whether Hayb could be indicted for the more serious charge of murder, and to find out if responsibility for Hurndall's death lies higher up the chain of command
Tom's mother Jocelyn Hurndall wrote a commentary in The Guardian on 10 January 2004, in which she stated:
It seems that life is cheap in the occupied territories. Different value attached to life depends on whether the victim happens to be Israeli, international or Palestinian


Brian Avery (born 1979)

is a former American volunteer for the International Solidarity Movement (ISM), who was shot in the face and seriously disfigured on April 5, 2003 while working for the ISM in the West Bank town of Jenin.

According to the Jerusalem Post (9/20/07; 11/19/08), Brian and his associates were "wearing red reflector vests with the word "doctor" in English and Arabic." Avery was hit in the face, his cheek was torn and his eye socket and jaw bones were smashed. The army refused to order a formal investigation of the incident, since that their probe found that no soldiers on patrol in the area that night reported such an incident as it
was described by the four witnesses
Avery appeared before the Israeli Supreme Court on February 28, 2005 to request a criminal investigation into his shooting. He accused Israeli troops of shooting him without provocation. The court responded by ordering the military to reopen Avery's case. Avery's attorney, Michael Sfard, said that the ruling "shows the military that even internal inquiries should be managed professionally and with care to get testimony from all sides, not just from military
In November 2008, Avery accepted a settlement for NIS 600,000 (USD $150,000) from the state of Israel in exchange for dropping the lawsuit. According to Shlomo Lecker, his Israeli lawyer, "The sum does not reflect the injuries Avery suffered... On the other hand, it's one of the very few times the state has awarded damages to anyone hurt by the IDF during the Second Intifada." Lecker said that Avery was willing to settle because of the need to defray some of the costs of the reconstructive operations he must still undergo, in addition to skepticism that the 15-month-long investigation would ever reach a satisfactory conclusion

There was a very moving interview with Tom Hurndall's parents on UK radio earlier today


06 Jun 10 - 06:59 PM (#2922027)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

"...its call for the destruction of a Member State of the United Nations is in contravention to Article 2 (4) of the 1945 UN Charter."

Big deal. Scottish independence or Irish reunification would mean the "destruction" of the Member State of the United Nations known as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".


06 Jun 10 - 07:09 PM (#2922030)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

"More than 100 Palestinians are killed for every Israeli killed"

What was the ratio for the UN Alies Kuwait-Iraq, or and UA-Iraq conflict?



The ratio for the UN allies was atrocious, and I make it a point to protest the war crimes of the governments involved in those acts of aggression quite often.


CarolC
Will you tell a family that the loss of their loved one was not as significant, because it was on a lower ratio-kill scale.


This question says a lot about you. Because you are defending the actions of the government that is killing the largest number of people. So let me ask you... does the deaths of the many thousands of Palestinians who have been killed by Israel have so little significance that you can't even acknowledge them?

Think about it for a minute. You appear to be totally unconcerned with the many thousands Palestinians who have been killed, and you want us only to think about much smaller number of Israelis who have been killed.

What I am saying is that it is an enormous double standard to say that we can't recognize Hamas because they have killed some Israelis, while we are not only recognizing the Israeli government, but we (me and my fellow US taxpayers) are paying the government of Israel enormous amounts of money every year and also giving them our diplomatic assistance.

If you think this state of affairs is acceptable, it can only be because you do not see Palestinians as human beings.


06 Jun 10 - 08:02 PM (#2922059)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

Sorru, CarolC your attempts at turning a defense into an offense, makes no sense at all:)


06 Jun 10 - 08:07 PM (#2922061)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

Can one actually have it both ways, by citing the UN and its directives when it suites a cause, and ignore it, when it does't.
Is this an example of logic one should pay much heed to?


06 Jun 10 - 08:09 PM (#2922063)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Nice try, Ed. But it is you who were trying to turn a defense into an offense when you asked me that question in the first place.

But I take your lack of a real answer to be an answer in the affirmative. You do not see Palestinians as human beings.


06 Jun 10 - 11:31 PM (#2922117)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Invitation to join the next aid convoy!


Galloway announces new land and sea convoys to break the siege of Gaza

Speaking at a demonstration in London on 5th June which organisers estimated to be more than 20,000 strong, George Galloway announced new land and sea convoys to break the siege of Gaza.

"After extensive discussion in Istanbul," said Galloway, "I can announce that a land convoy will leave Britain shortly after the end of Ramadan in September this year and travel through Europe, down through Turkey and Syria into Jordan. We will ask the Egyptian government then to ensure passage from the port of Aqaba to Rafah and into Gaza.

"At exactly the same time a flotilla of boats will be leaving to tour the countries of the Mediterranean before heading for Gaza.

"These combined sea and land convoys will be co-coordinated by Viva Palestina with other organisations in Britain and with our friends throughout the Middle East and in Turkey.


VIVA PALESTINA!


06 Jun 10 - 11:43 PM (#2922119)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/06/israel-youtube-gaza-flotilla


07 Jun 10 - 12:18 AM (#2922129)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

http://www.opednews.com/articles/US-Media-Hide-Evidence-Di-by-Dave-Lindorff-100606-487.html


07 Jun 10 - 12:21 AM (#2922130)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Oops. I didn't mean to post that twice. I meant to put this one in that last post. More on the Jewish flotilla...

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3899915,00.html


07 Jun 10 - 02:05 AM (#2922147)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Autopsies reveal aid activists shot from behind


07 Jun 10 - 03:34 AM (#2922170)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll

"If the REALLY want to change things, let them stand in front of the tanks and guns, not take a sea cruise that they know will end in a free flight home! "
"Come out into the open where we can kill you easier" - great idea John.
These were unarmed volunteers delivering relief supplies; the Israelis were a highly trained crack force belonging to an army that has more than proved its vicious readiness in killing unarmed opposition (including women and children btw).
These are the weapons found to have been used on the Mavi Mamara (according to the Sunday Times).
Those found on board ship: stun grenade, catapult, metal bar, knife, broken bottle.
Those in posession of the pirates: paintball gun, tazer gun, Uzi sub-machine gun, Glock handgun.
The "stroll down 5th Avenue" on board the Rachel Corrie was described thus:

"'THEY WERE LIKE HYENAS'
A FULL moon hung over the Mediterranean but somehow the Israeli Zodiac boats eluded its beams. "We couldn't see them until they were up close to us, They were like hyenas circling the boat," said Fintan Lane, a historian and author from Cork who was previously jailed in connection with anti-war protests at Shannon airport.
Lane was one of five Irish citizens on board Challenger One, an American boat, including crew members Shane Dillon from Dublin and Fiachra Ó Luain, a Donegal-based candidate in last year's European elections.
At first, Challenger One tried to outrun the Israeli boats but when the captain suspected they were about to be rammed he slowed the engines. Almost immediately, a stun grenade exploded on board. A second one landed beside Lane.
For a while, the activists impeded the boarding commandos by throwing furniture in front of them but they were soon overwhelmed. "This was a violent attack," Lane said. "They assaulted one of our lookouts. There was a Belgian girl who took a plastic bullet or some sort of missile in the face. She was bleeding from the nose. They wrestled a Palestinian woman with an Israeli passport to the ground. They got stuck into her, I could hear her screaming. : They took one girl to the front and hooded her."
The commandos confiscated phones, cameras and recording equipment. While Kate Geraghty, an Irish journalist, managed to conceal her footage of the raid, Ó Luain, who had been at the bow filming the events on the nearby Mavi Marmara, had his camera seized.
At Ashdod port.the activists linked arms and refused to disembark, saying they did not want to visit Israel. Lane was forcibly transferred on to the quayside where he was informed he would be charged with entering Israel illegally and that the penalty was deportation.
One by one, the other boats arrived ashore. Two Irish citizens of Libyan origin who live in Dublin, Al Mahdi Alharati and Isam Ben Ali, had been on the Greek-owned Sfendoni. "You have arrived in Israel," Ben Ali was informed. "There is no Israel," he replied. "There is Palestine." He told a press conference in Dublin on Friday that he was denied his regular medicine. Ben Ali signed a deportation order because he feared being singled out by the Israelis in jail. Alharati, who says he has diabetes and a heart condition, collapsed at Ben Gurion Airport and was sent to Turkey where he was admitted to intensive care.
Ó Luain insisted he wished to contest his deportation order in Israel's courts, and claimed he was assaulted by "between 15 and 20" uniformed minders. One allegedly threatened to kill him.
There are five Irish people on board the Rachel Corrie. They include Matread Maguire, a Nobel peace laureate from Belfast, Denis Halliday, an assistant secretary general at the United Nations, and Derek Graham, an electrician from Ballina. Graham and Maguire were arrested in the Mediterranean and jailed in Israel in July last year when they attempted to break the Gaza blockade on board the Spirit of Humanity."

Ed T
You fail to state your opinion on the illegal Israeli occupation of Palestine, so we can presume that you are in favour of it but lack the courage to say so openly - puts your position in context perfectly - thank you.
You also fail to give us any examples of anti-Semitism on this thread so we can also assume that you made it up and your accusation can be seen as a rather pathetic attempt to smear.

Can I unreservedly recommend as an overview of the Palestine conflict the prizewinning film documentary 'Occupation 101' - inspiring and at the same time harrowing. Available on DVD - all proceeds going to the attemps to deliver relief to Gaza.
Jim Carroll


07 Jun 10 - 03:54 AM (#2922173)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John MacKenzie

And yet, more than 100 Palestinians are killed for every Israeli killed, Ed. If we can do business with a genocidal terrorist state like Israel, then we can also do business with Hamas.

How many Iraquis for each US soldier Carol?

The people on the boat who were unfortunately killed, chose to attack the Israeli forces, which none of the 'passengers' on other boats did. It would appear that they were more anti Israeli than pro Palestinian!

I sympathise with the desire to end this blockade, but as I said, it's not possible until both sides give a bit.
I don't live in a hole, but I am practical and pragmatic, I see things as they are, and not as I would like them to be.
So many idealists and romantics close their eyes to reality.


07 Jun 10 - 04:25 AM (#2922184)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

These pictures were in a Turkish paper and show injured Israeli soldiers on the ship.
They must have chosen not to shoot to defend themselves.
http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/GaleriDetay.aspx?cid=36575&p=2&rid=2


07 Jun 10 - 04:53 AM (#2922193)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Where have you guys been?

If you took the time to read the thread, you would have seen that the following has already been answered.


1. "How many Iraquis for each US soldier Carol?"

From: CarolC - PM
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 07:09 PM

The ratio for the UN allies was atrocious, and I make it a point to protest the war crimes of the governments involved in those acts of aggression quite often.

2. "The people on the boat who were unfortunately killed, chose to attack the Israeli forces,"

This is BS. The IDF attacked the ship. The people on board defended themselves.

To say anything else is to be deceitful to oneself and to others.

3. Keith, if you look back through the thread you will find the rest of the photos from that particular set which show the same soldier (singular) being treated by doctors on the ship after having been brought to them down that staircase.

He Abseiled onto the ship, backed up by a hail of bullets which came before he did so, and when he landed he was beaten down and had his gun taken off him.

Then, instead of being killed, he was taken to a safe cabin where his wounds were tended to.

If any 'mob' had wanted to kill him, it would have happened then.


07 Jun 10 - 05:44 AM (#2922218)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

They must have chosen not to shoot to defend themselves.

How on earth can you assume that? Just because you are shooting people does not make you invulnerabale. There was fightionm when the Israeli commandos stormed the Mavi Marmara, and people tried to defend themsleves agaisnt teh attack. The bottom line is, nine people were killed on one side, and no one was killed ontehkther side.

The Israeli PR exercise has repeatedly said that the only violence that took place was on the Mavi Marmara. That is a lie, as witnesses have testified - the difference is, on the other ships the only violence came from the Istraeli attackers.


07 Jun 10 - 06:26 AM (#2922235)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Unless they replaced his balaclava as they caringly dragged him down the stairs on his back, there are at least two soldiers.
If they were being cared for by their captors, they would be the first such lucky Israeli soldiers in the long history of this conflict.
Usually they are murdered. Their corpses may be kept for exchange value.


07 Jun 10 - 07:16 AM (#2922251)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Lox said it well. Read the thread guys. Don't just jump in here asking questions and making assertions without having read the thread.

John, I don't know what you would expect to prove with your question about US forces and Iraqi deaths. It seems to me you are making a lot of assumptions about my position on the Iraq war. Which, if you had ever bothered to read anything I've ever posted on that conflict, you would already know where I stand.

Keith - read the thread. You are 100 percent ignorant of all of the facts of the situation, which have already been posted.


07 Jun 10 - 07:47 AM (#2922267)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens

Well, I have read the thread fairly assiduously, and I still have not managed to spot the video evidence that purports to back up this assertion, that the defenders were being shot before the commandos came down the rope, as described by Lox, CarolC etc.
"He Abseiled onto the ship, backed up by a hail of bullets which came before he did so"

I appreciate a lot of people would love this to be true, but I can't myself find anything to suggest that is what actually happened. It may have done, it may not. But where is this evidence?


07 Jun 10 - 07:51 AM (#2922270)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bubblyrat

So.....let me get this straight,then ;
         Israel occupies Gaza. Israel builds settlements in Gaza,and encourages its citizens to move there and build communities. The rest of the world doesn't approve of this,and tells Israel so ,in no uncertain terms. So Israel forces (yes, FORCES) its own people out of their own homes and communities in Gaza, and hands the whole caboodle back to the Palestinians,on the understanding, of course,that the Palestinians don't abuse this arrangement by using it as a platform from which to bombard Israel with rockets helpfully supplied by numerous neighbouring ,extemely hostile,Arab , Muslim countries. Yes ??
    So ....the Palestinians swiftly renege on this agreement,and immediately commence a protracted and sustained bombardment of the nice,helpful,trusting Israelis. The rest of the world looks on, says "Tut Tut !", and,as usual, does fuck all. With me so far ?? Then another hostile country,whose population aren't even Arabs,declares its intention to build nuclear weapons and wipe the said Israel off the face of the Earth !! Faced ,for whatever reason,with mounting hostility and even international opprobrium, the Israelis,thoroughly pissed off with the endless flow of weapons and munitions to their enemies, via a labyrinth of tunnels between Egypt & Palestine,and by sea under cover of "Humanitarian Aid" convoys,decide to get tough, as it is obvious to them that,as usual,the rest of the world is going to do fuck all (again). So,after a confused,badly planned and probably too hastily executed anti-blockade-running military escapade,a number of "Activists", having publicly declared their wish to become "Martyrs" before even leaving port,are killed,bringing even more hand-wringing international opprobrium !
And that constitutes an "Atrocity", does it ??
         I thought that The Holocaust was an "atrocity", but I am afraid I cannot see any justification for using that word to describe the recent debacle (for such it was) off Israel / Gaza.


07 Jun 10 - 08:49 AM (#2922310)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll

"The people on the boat who were unfortunately killed, chose to attack the Israeli forces,"
There is no evidence to substantiate this claim, nor will there be as Israel (once again) has refused an independent enquiry into the incident and has said that they will hold an internal one - and find themselves 'not guilty' no doubt, as they have in the past!!!
However, there is evidence that four of the dead were killed by a single bullet to the back of the head, suggesting they were executed.
We will probably never know, so leaving the field open to your making unsubstantiated claims such as this one.
Jim Carroll


07 Jun 10 - 09:01 AM (#2922317)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens

Jim Carroll says
"four of the dead were killed by a single bullet to the back of the head, suggesting they were executed".
Well, it might well suggest that, were it to be true. But I suspect, Jim, that you read the autopsy accounts as I did. Actually, only two out of the nine are reported to have been killed by a single bullet. One in the forehead(Cegdet Kiliclar), one in the front of the neck(Cengiz Songur). This was a shocking incident, there is no need to "improve" the evidence. Those who got a bullet in the back also got shot in the front, suggesting people spinning round when shot, possibly. Anyway, certainly no bullet in the back of the head execution type shooting. Unless, perhaps, you have heard some evidence about this? IN which case, let's hear it. I, by the way, am quoting the Guardian, quoting the autopsy reporty published by the Turkish authoprities. You tell us where you got your execution/back of the head stuff from.


07 Jun 10 - 09:31 AM (#2922332)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy

..........& at last 'Gorgeous 'George Galloway lends himself to the fray!

http://www.vivapalestina.org/home.htm


07 Jun 10 - 10:36 AM (#2922356)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

The images I posted a link to were new images, published just yesterday.
They were taken by the protestors and published in Turkey.


07 Jun 10 - 11:21 AM (#2922385)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll

Greg,
Reports from Turkey state categorically that four appear to have been executed in the manner I described - according to The Irish Times (fairly reliable IMO).
If it was a straightforward fight, why should the Israelis refuse an open, neutral enquiry?
Jim Carroll


07 Jun 10 - 11:29 AM (#2922394)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens

Let's see the quote from the Irish Times then.


07 Jun 10 - 11:33 AM (#2922396)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens

Right, Jim, I have just located the Irish Times acount of this, June 5. As I thought, it contains no reference whatever to anybody being shot in the back of the head by a single bullet. You claim this happend to four of the victims. I suggest you made this up yourself. If not, show us your source.


07 Jun 10 - 11:58 AM (#2922411)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

"The new information about the manner and intensity of the killings undermines Israel's insistence that its soldiers opened fire only in self defence and in response to attacks by the activists."

Guardian article last Friday

"Nine Turkish men on board the Mavi Marmara were shot a total of 30 times and five were killed by gunshot wounds to the head, according to the vice-chairman of the Turkish council of forensic medicine, which carried out the autopsies for the Turkish ministry of justice today.

The results revealed that a 60-year-old man, Ibrahim Bilgen, was shot four times in the temple, chest, hip and back. A 19-year-old, named as Fulkan Dogan, who also has US citizenship, was shot five times from less that 45cm, in the face, in the back of the head, twice in the leg and once in the back.

Two other men were shot four times, and five of the victims were shot either in the back of the head or in the back, said Yalcin Buyuk, vice-chairman of the council of forensic medicine."

The Times pointed out that the first commandoes to land had indeed been disarmed by the passengers

"A wounded Turkish passenger, Muhyittin Yildirim, said: "Some Israeli soldiers were rendered ineffective.
Our friends got their weapons.
If they had a bad intention, they would have used the weapons against the soldiers but they threw them to the sea."

- In fact no Israel soldier had bullet wounds.

From CNN

"Five of the men died with bullet wounds to the head, said Dr. Haluk Ince, the director of Istanbul's Medical Examination Institute, said Friday
In one case, Ince said, a gunshot victim had been shot at at extremely close range.
"From the analysis of the bullet distance on one of the bodies," Dr. Ince said, "the gun was fired between 2 and 14 centimeters' distance from the victim's head."


The United States-based progressive/liberal news site OpEdNews comments that CNN nevertheless omitted "the all-important fact that most of the victims were shot from behind was left out.
ABC had the same information on Thursday, again without mentioning the shots from behind.
In its article on Friday, the NY Times had yet to even name Dogan, the American victim, much less mention the bullets that hit him or how he was shot.
As of Sunday, the Times had still not reported the nature of the deadly shots fired."


07 Jun 10 - 12:00 PM (#2922412)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

Not sure why you keep talking about the pre-67 boders- the Arab nations have NEVER agreed to them.

Still waiting on your answers to my post of

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce - PM
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:45 PM


I think we should also compare how the Israelis treat the occupied territories with how the Arabs treated them from 1948 to 1967.

And what ever happened to those non-Moslim communities on the West bak? I know that many families near where I grew up cam from the Christian town of Ramallah, and were driven out by the Moslims after the 1948 war. THOSE families had been there for hundreds of years, as had the Jewish communities in the Arab nations that were driven out.





Lets just give each person who was driven out a billion dollars- to be split amoung descendents in the cases where the original person has died:

Lets see- 640,000 Palestinain Arabs
          820,000 Arab Jews

that means that the Palestinian Moslims owe $180,000,000,000,000.


07 Jun 10 - 12:02 PM (#2922413)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq

"An unnamed Israeli commando, who purportedly led the raid on the Mavi Marmara, today told Israeli news website Ynet News that he shot at a protester who approached him with a knife. 'I was in front of a number of people with knives and clubs,' he said. 'I cocked my weapon when I saw that one was coming towards me with a knife drawn and I fired once. Then another 20 people came at me from all directions and threw me down to the deck below …

'We knew they were peace activists. Though they wanted to break the Gaza blockade, we thought we'd encounter passive resistance, perhaps verbal resistance – we didn't expect this. Everyone wanted to kill us. We encountered terrorists who wanted to kill us and we did everything we could to prevent unnecessary injury.'"

{I read several accounts of the autopsy reports and no person died of a single bullet to the back, or back of the head, execution style, as some claim. At least one person had a rear-entry wound, but had four more front-entry ones.}


07 Jun 10 - 12:19 PM (#2922419)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6

Turkey ... now there is a country thae exhibits high standards on human rights.

biLL


07 Jun 10 - 12:48 PM (#2922440)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq

Yep, them Turks is just a bunch of peace-loving sweethearts...

"History of the modern Turkish Republic is a history of repression of the Kurds. While it has allowed a degree of tolerance and democracy within Turkey for Turkish population it has shown an absolute intolerance towards the Kurdish question. Identifying oneself as a Kurd is still a crime in Turkey. If one says he/she is Kurdish it is implied that they say there are other ethnic groups in Turkey, it is implied that they want to separate from Turkey. They automatically become members of the PKK and so become 'terrorists'.

In June 2008, several Kurdish child singers were facing prison for singing Kurdish anthem at a function in the United States. Three of them aged 15 to 17 were tried in an adult court in Diyarbekir. They faced up to five years in jail if they were convicted.

Since the establishment of the modern Turkish Republic millions of Kurds have been deported or forced to migrate to Turkish towns and cities or Western Europe, tens of thousands have been killed, similar numbers have been arrested, imprisoned, tortured. Thousands of Kurdish villages have been destroyed. The Kurds have gone through cultural genocide in the hope of getting assimilated. Yet, the Kurdish problem in Turkey is bigger than ever."


07 Jun 10 - 01:13 PM (#2922453)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

After so many contributions, I think it would be fare to change the title of the thread into something non so one-sided. Something like "Gaza flotilla", or something like that...


07 Jun 10 - 02:01 PM (#2922490)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger

Israel suffers from antiquated thinking which informs their paranoia. First, they are concerned about what "gentiles" think. Second, the don't give a damn what "gentiles" think.
It's an unresolved conflict.

Israel is turning into a theocracy (if they aren't already).

The solution is clear. A Zionist State might be compared to a Christian State. In the long run, unsustainable. However, power sharing between Israeli citizens both Jewish and Arab (Palestinian) is the only workable answer. There is no reason for Israeli Jews to give up their religion while sharing political power with Israeli Palestinians.

Extremist Jewish, Muslim and Christian groups that attempt to force their religion on a political level are the problem.

This is why the Separation of Church and State is the best model.


07 Jun 10 - 03:05 PM (#2922535)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6

absolutely terrible.

.

.

goodbye Helen.

biLL


07 Jun 10 - 03:28 PM (#2922546)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"The images I posted a link to were new images, published just yesterday."

Yes, however I saw them before you did and also saw the rest of the same photo set in which the same soldiers, after having been removed from the affray then had their wounds treated.

Carol has posted these same photos already in this thread.

If you ask her nicely she may redirect you to the source wher these photos can be viewed.


07 Jun 10 - 03:30 PM (#2922549)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll

"I suggest you made this up yourself"
The artical appeared as a comment column in the Irish Times around last Wednesday - I may well have misread it but I certainly didn't make it up - I've never seen the point of reducing arguments to that level; and certainly not quoting your source when doing so.
If I am mistaken I apologise unreservedly.
My point on the Israelis refusing to be part of an independant investigation into this or any other incident they have been involved in - if they have nothing to hide, why not?
"Yep, them Turks is just a bunch of peace-loving sweethearts..."
I am quite aware of the Turkish human rights record; I reckon you couldn't squeeze a credit card between their and that of the Israeli's - a matching pair, I'd say. I am also aware that up to now they have been one of Israel's few supporters, and anything they say has to be viewed in that light. I can't recall Turkey coming out in suport of humanitarian aid lately.
"Gaza flotilla"
Or "Israili piracy" maybe
Jim Carroll


07 Jun 10 - 03:43 PM (#2922554)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

The flotilla was made up of many more nationalities than just turks.

Though of course it is highly reasonable to say that if the turks have a bad human rights record then its fine for the IDF to murder people.

As for the evidence of the IDF firing first, go back and watch the videos and read the posts again.

Testimony from the ships company says that they were subject to covering fire before the troops landed.

This is corroborated by the live news reports in which the anchors are reporting injured passengers, while at the same time speculating that troops may be about to be deployed from the visible helicopters above.

Troops are then seem abseiling down and the anchor confirms that they have started to board.


07 Jun 10 - 03:48 PM (#2922559)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

"Isn't it awful what happened to Helen Thomas?"

I don't know this lady? But I did quickly do a YouTube search for the comment she made.. Yes, it was a strongly phrased opinion, but what I found most telling was the amount of YouTube versions which misquoted her as saying simply:
"The Jews should go back to Germany"
rather than what she actually said which was:
"Israel [should] get out of Palestine".

In response to a further question about where "they" (interesting that the interviewer shifted so immediately and seamlessly in his questioning from (the state of) "Israel" to "they" (ie: Jewish people) - this echoes some of the points raised here regarding the common conflation of all Jewish *people* with the *state* of Israel and vice versa) should leave Palestine for and return to, she replied "Poland and Germany and America and everywhere else" [that they had relocated to Palestine from]. A controversial opinion yes, but not simply a brute "The Jews should go back to Germany", as it has been characterised.


07 Jun 10 - 03:51 PM (#2922562)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

So when the Klan says that Blacks should go back to Africa, you'll not complain???


07 Jun 10 - 03:54 PM (#2922566)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

And of course you agree that all those Mexicans should be packed up and sent South.


07 Jun 10 - 04:03 PM (#2922572)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

Well of course "the Blacks" were err like slaves forced there in the first place against their will as err slaves to the whites. And the Mexicans are like descended from the real Americans so it's their land in the first place (except the whites decided to carve it up when they stole it).


07 Jun 10 - 04:04 PM (#2922574)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

Or something..


07 Jun 10 - 04:07 PM (#2922576)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

PS I didn't actually say I agreed with her comment, I observed how she had been misquoted.


07 Jun 10 - 04:10 PM (#2922579)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany


07 Jun 10 - 04:11 PM (#2922582)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

"Mexicans are like descended from the real Americans so it's their land in the first place "


You mean like the Jews, that were driven out of ancient Israel, moved through Spain, England, Germany, and Poland, and then returned to Israel?


They are as much descended from the "Real Israelis" as the Mexicans are of the indians who lived here before the Europeans- though they drove out earlier tribes.

Just askk the Terra del Fuagans ( pardon spelling), or the tribes that used to be where the later tribes settled.


07 Jun 10 - 04:19 PM (#2922591)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

"They are as much descended from the "Real Israelis" as the Mexicans"

Come off it man, that's sheer tosh! And I'm like an ancient Gaelic Druid because I have a bit of Irish in me - think I'll seize back Free Derry (just let me get my DNA tests finished up, must be sure about my rightful heritage first of course)! Mexicans never relocated anyplace else, America is their homeland and always has been.
But Like Rig say's that's another story for another day...


07 Jun 10 - 04:19 PM (#2922592)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Hang on a sec ...

Can I juat clarify ...

... is this question of Helen Thomas relevant to this thread?

Does it justify the IDF's behaviour on the Mavi Marmara?

... just wondering as it appears to have been jumped on with some zeal - presumably either as a distraction from the point or just becausde it is something that BB and Bobad can actually say something about.


07 Jun 10 - 04:20 PM (#2922593)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

"Mexicans never relocated anyplace else, America is their homeland and always has been. "


Whatever you want to think.


But I don't have to agree with yu.


07 Jun 10 - 04:23 PM (#2922597)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

I am waiting to hear why Israel should not return to the last borders taht Arab nations agreed to- in 1923 when the Arab Palestinian Homeland of TransJordan took 77% of the Mandate Palestine territory away from the Jewish Homeland.


07 Jun 10 - 04:32 PM (#2922609)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"Whatever you want to think."

Where do Mexicans come from?


07 Jun 10 - 04:37 PM (#2922611)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq

There are already two current threads that discuss the right (or lack thereof) of Mexicans moving, by the millions, into somebody else's country.


07 Jun 10 - 04:38 PM (#2922612)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

I can imagine that that might be well acceptable enough to Palestinians, provided that the deal included a right of return to their homes for the exiles and refugees. It would of course mean an abandonment of the notion of a permanent Jewish majority in the state, whatever it was called.


07 Jun 10 - 04:39 PM (#2922613)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John MacKenzie

Mexico?


07 Jun 10 - 04:39 PM (#2922614)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6

Oh joy

Does this mean we're going to argue what genetically is a true Mexican, like you guys did about what is a true Jew?

Lunacy.

biLL


07 Jun 10 - 04:57 PM (#2922626)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Well we certainly seem to have moved on from the Flotilla debate ...

another red herring perhaps to avoid the point.


07 Jun 10 - 05:22 PM (#2922644)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq

...from the website of Rabbi Nesenoff who did the interview with Helen Thomas:

"From 1517 to 1917 Turkey controlled the areas we know as Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Israel. During World War I Turkey supported Germany. When Germany lost the war, Lebanon and Syria was assigned to France... and the area we know as Jordan and Israel was mandated to Great Britain.

The Jews of numerous Arab countries had already begun mass immigration into that area in the 1880's in an effort to rid the land of swamps and malaria. This Jewish dangerous and painstaking effort to turn uninhabitable marsh and malaria and mire into livable property was actually becoming successful. The Jewish revitalization of the land was paying off and then and only then attracted a large immigration of Arabs from neighboring areas who were drawn by employment opportunities and healthier living conditions than the Arab countries they were living in.

In 1923, the British divided this area and gave 75% of the land to the Arabs and 25% to the Jews. The Arabs launched never-ending murderous attacks upon the Jews in an effort to drive them out. Most terrifying were the Hebron massacres of 1929 and later during the 1936 to 1939 'Arab Revolt.' The British at first tried to maintain order but soon (due to the large oil deposits being discovered throughout the Arab Middle East) turned a blind eye. It became painfully clear to the Jews that they must fight the Arabs AND drive out the British.

The Jews were forced to form an organized defense against the Arabs, thus was formed the Hagana, the beginnings of the Israeli Defense Forces. There was also a Jewish underground called the Irgun, led by Menachem Begin (who later became Prime Minister of Israel). Besides fighting the Arabs, the Irgun was instrumental in driving out the pro-Arab British. Finally in 1947 the British had enough and turned the problem over to the United Nations.

The 1947 U.N. Resolution 181 partition plan was to divide the remaining 25% that the Jews were living in, into a Jewish State and a second Palestinian State. The Jews accepted the UN plan. The Arab Palestinians rejected it. The Arabs still wanted ALL of the land both east AND west of the Jordan River.

On May 14, 1948 the Jews finally declared their own State of Israel and became 'Israelis.' On the next day, seven neighboring Arab armies... Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen... invaded Israel. Most of the Arabs living within the boundaries of the newly declared 'ISRAEL' were encouraged to leave by the invading Arab armies to facilitate the slaughter of the Jews and were promised to be given all Jewish property after the victorious Arab armies won the war. The truth is that 70% of the Arabs who left in 1948 – perhaps 300,000 to 400,000 of them – never saw an Israeli soldier! They did not flee because they feared Jewish soldiers or Jewish thugs…. But because of a rational and reasonable calculus: the Jews will be exterminated; we will get out of the way while that messy and dangerous business goes forward, and we will return afterwards to reclaim our homes, and to inherit those nice Jewish properties as well. They guessed wrong; and the Arabs are still tortured by the residual shame of their flight.

The remaining 30% either saw for themselves that these Jews would fight and die for their new nation and decided to pack up and leave or they were driven off the land as a normal consequence of war.

When the, nineteen month war, ended, Israel survived despite a 1% loss of its entire population! Those Arabs who did not flee became today's Israeli-Arab citizens. Those who fled became the seeds of the first wave of 'Palestinian Arab refugees.'

In the final analysis, the Arabs of Palestine ended up with nearly 85% of the original territory of that area, and it's called Jordan, or in reality, their ARAB Palestinian state! But that was still not 100% and thus the conflict between Arab and Jew for 'Palestine' continues through wars and continuous Arab terrorist attacks upon Israeli citizens.

This is not about the Holocaust or the 1940s. This is not about Kings Saul, David or Solomon. This is not about throwing Arabs and their loved one's out of their homes. This is not about ancient times.

This is about the creation of a modern country in modern times in a legitimate manner. This is about the blossoming of a fruit that was planted in swamps and marshes and malaria.

This isn't about 70 BCE or 70 AD. This is about 1517, 1880, 1917, 1923, 1936,1939, 1947, and 1948."


07 Jun 10 - 05:28 PM (#2922649)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6

good one pdq.

biLL


07 Jun 10 - 05:47 PM (#2922663)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

"This is not about throwing Arabs and their loved one's out of their homes."   But that is precisely what happened, and continues to happen.
..........................

Here is a piece worth reading, from Haaretz last week - "In its hour of need, Israel was let down by Diaspora":

"...If only we had some real friends, friends we could trust implicitly, who could point out the error of our ways. This could be the shining moment of the Jewish Diaspora. They love us, but they also see things from another perspective. We need a strong, unified voice from the Jewish leadership in the United States and Europe telling Israelis enough is enough, you are hurtling down the slippery slope of pariahdom and causing untold damage to yourselves and us. Lift your heads above the ramparts and see that the world has moved on."


07 Jun 10 - 05:56 PM (#2922669)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6

"see that the world has moved on"

have we??

We seem to be digging up all the muck from history to argue and fight about.

All sides are guilty of this.

The only remedy to all of this is when we can live to-gether as humans and not see people as Jews, Arabs, black, white or as Mexicans ... when we are totally oblivious to all of this then we can live together in peace.

biLL


07 Jun 10 - 06:23 PM (#2922680)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

"The only remedy to all of this is when we can live to-gether as humans and not see people as Jews, Arabs, black, white or as Mexicans ... when we are totally oblivious to all of this then we can live together in peace."

Right on biLL!


07 Jun 10 - 06:54 PM (#2922699)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

"... is this question of Helen Thomas relevant to this thread?"

I would think that it is in that the view she espouses, that the Jews do not belong in Israel, is one that is shared by many of the posters in this thread. This idea is offensive to many people and is considered to be antisemitic as well.


07 Jun 10 - 07:20 PM (#2922716)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"the view ... that the Jews do not belong in Israel, is one that is shared by many of the posters in this thread."

Can you state who shares this view and can you provide a quote, link or any other evidence to support your accusation?

Without any such clarification and corroboration, your comment stands as a barefaced lie.

Are you a Liar Bobad or can you support your statement as requested?

Its a black and white situation.

I await your answer with curiosity.


07 Jun 10 - 07:55 PM (#2922741)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic

The very title of this thread bears out Bobad's point. This was certainly a tragedy, but it was NO Israeli atrocity. Pretty much the reverse if you consider the planning to force a confrontation on the Turkish ship by Turkish extremists.

There have been comments to the effect that the Jewish state should be ended, there has been considerable digital ink spilled in a downright weird argument that the Jews in Israel are not racially Jews but they are committing genocide on the millions of Palestinians (who have gone on being Palestinian all this time). There has also been an implication that Jews might be more justified if they were willing to die off in larger numbers during the recent conflicts.

The crux of the matter is a genocidal intent to deny Jews their Palestinian rights and Palestinian origins. (The whiff of Juden Raus is rich through this thread because it seeks to deny Jews their time and place without allowing them any other time or place. Without the extremists who can't stomach synagogues (and churches) along with mosques in the Middle East, the many wars of the young State Of Israel would have been not so much.

Bobad's remarks are well taken.


07 Jun 10 - 08:10 PM (#2922751)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

Well said Robo, the thread absolutely reeks of that sentiment in spite of Lox's challenge to show someone using those exact words. That tactic is old.


07 Jun 10 - 08:48 PM (#2922771)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6

""the view ... that the Jews do not belong in Israel, is one that is shared by many of the posters in this thread."

I share this view with bobad.

I am actually somewhat shocked and disturbed (in fact very disturbed) on some of the posts in this thread. I fear they are more than just exaggerated emotions, but true calculated sentiments bubbling to the surface.

biLL


07 Jun 10 - 09:20 PM (#2922785)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

Where are the cries against the genocide of Kurds in Turkey?

http://www.kurdmedia.com/article.aspx?id=13491


07 Jun 10 - 09:29 PM (#2922789)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

So once more the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and the plight of the people has been obfuscated by false fabricated charges of anti Semitism and self-hating Jews - for shame!

Well you can defriend me on Facebook and slander me on mudcat but there are too many voices raised in protest to be silenced

I stand proudly by everything I have said and defy anyone to find any trace of racism of any kind in my posts

I financially supported the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee back in the 60s
I was an active member of the anti -Apartheid movement in the UK
I have stood up and been counted (and physically threatened) at protests against the BNP and their equal hatred of Jews and Muslims in the last decade
I am a member of an organization seeking to bring together Jewish and Palestinian youth in cultural activities

As Kurt Cobain said
"I'd rather be hated for who I am than loved for who I am not."

So slander me as an anti-semite here, defriend me on Facebook but you will not drown the voices demanding compassion and justice this time!

Goodnight and may your god forgive you


07 Jun 10 - 09:29 PM (#2922790)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq

Recent DNA studies shown that the closest relatives the Jews have are the Kurds and the Armenians.

For the government of Turkey to get involved in genocide against the Jews, well, that just looks like part of a very long tradition.


07 Jun 10 - 09:33 PM (#2922793)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

That tactic is old.

The tactic of pointing out nobody actually said that and therefore you are lying? Yes that is a very old tactic. Goes back as far as logic. And calling it a "tactic" doesn't mean what he said isn't true. You're a liar.


07 Jun 10 - 09:34 PM (#2922794)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: t.jack

I guess i am becoming a anti semetic.I really think so by all the definitions i#v come across on this thred.Who dictates that judgement .Lox
Ignorent yes i am as my spelling will attest to. I have this rage inside that wants to stop this sensless killing .As a relgion well thats your trip.But when you say Israel is a Jewish State then it is a Jewish problem is it not.I don#t think i hate Jews but i am at the point of trying to understand what the heck is going on and the more i invesigate what or why all this is taking place ,it ends up with the word jew in it.Now if i was to boycott Israel products and services,what do they have other than oranges.And when i look at their beautiful orange groves by google earth i see they are the only green landscape in the middle east.Why,because they diverted water from the palistine land,not muslum but palastanie land.God i wish i could work the spell check.,,If they are such a powerful State where do they get the money. The indians have as much right to have their land back .No religion should pretend to own land and continue to brain wash their kids in beliving that. The bible i quote from a Jewish Friend and yes i still have a few jewish friends was bad journalism.So i guess i am anti semetic , i am anti war also. And it is the ignorant and uneducated like myself that join your armies but not create them.To fight and be killed for these rediclous ideals,for the soilder is young brainwashed and needs a job or meal which govt does not provide in trainings or education. I really think i am becoming antisemetic .What next..Rename the animals Adam.


07 Jun 10 - 09:46 PM (#2922803)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

mousey, so is name calling.


07 Jun 10 - 09:54 PM (#2922805)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

If the shoe fits.


07 Jun 10 - 10:04 PM (#2922810)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6

In case you are wondering where I stand in all of this ... I stated it in an earlier post, and I'll restate.

"The only remedy to all of this is when we can live to-gether as humans and not see people as Jews, Arabs, black, white or as Mexicans ... when we are totally oblivious to all of this then we can live together in peace."

Then, and only then can humanity, and peace move forward.

When Israelis and Palestinians can sit across from one another and not see a Jew or not see an Arab. then this insane issue will be resolved.

Anger, and revenge, fear, mistrust will take us nowhere. It only fuels the flames of violence.

biLL


07 Jun 10 - 10:09 PM (#2922811)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

biLL, I agree with you 100% and I think humanity is evolving in that direction but we won't see it in our lifetime.


07 Jun 10 - 10:14 PM (#2922813)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6

It certainly won't be in our lifetime bobad. Sad to say.

biLL


07 Jun 10 - 11:29 PM (#2922834)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

"Ahmed Luqman was shot twice during the raid and lost so much blood he nearly died. His condition meant he was one of the last activists deported from Israel.

He is now in an Istanbul hospital, from where he gave an interview to the ABC.

Mr Luqman said he was on the back deck of the flotilla flagship the Mavi Marmara, running to get inside, when he saw a laser sight settle on his leg.

Then he was down.

'I obviously knew that I'd been shot when I could see a bullet on the floor and a puddle of blood,' he said.

'Blood just pissing out of my leg, from two holes. You put two and two together, and it looks like you've been shot.'

The first bullet tore through his leg, partially severing his femoral artery. Another shot hit near his knee.

Israel says its troops were justified in opening fire after being attacked by a small band of violent activists, but Mr Luqman says that is simply fiction.

'None of us know anything about fighting and none of us intended to fight. [We're] peaceful people,' he said.

He denied any of the activists were looking for a confrontation and said some simply responded defensively when the Israelis opened fire.

'Me for one, I'm not part of that. I was just trying to get into the cabin and [was] just shot, like most of the other people who were just shot for nothing,' he said.

As bad as the assault was, the aftermath, says Mr Luqman, was worse.

'I've just been left there to lay down on the ground and just friggin' bleed, and I can't believe it,' he said.

Many of the soldiers that came up, picked up my passport because it was a different colour, looked at it, chucked it on the ground next to me and said, 'Ah, you're Australian'.'

Mr Luqman says Israeli soldiers refused him any sort of medical attention.

'They made me walk, without a stretcher, and climb all the stairs on my own without any assistance, and I passed out like three or four times just getting up the stairs on my own,' he said.

Mr Luqman's wife Jerry was with him. The nursing student helped keep him alive as his blood drained out.

Later, as other activists were deported, she chose to remain in detention in Israel to stay with her husband. She says the harsh treatment did not end on the ship.

'Their treatment of us was just completely unacceptable. I've never met anyone whose heart has become so hard and so black in my life,' she said."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/06/07/2919698.htm


07 Jun 10 - 11:48 PM (#2922837)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I don't have time right now to read through all of the posts that have appeared since my last post, but I did see a couple. I don't know if this has already been answered, but just in case...

The proof that the Israelis opened fire first is in the video I posted earlier, which is from the live feed that was coming from the ship as the attack was in progress (which I was actually watching at the time, and I saw all of what we see in the video while it was happening), in which we seen and hear a correspondent reporting the fact that there are already wounded people on board the ship before we see the helicopters appear and then let down the ropes. A few minutes after he reports the wounded people, we see the helicopter appear and lower down a rope on which the Israelis absail down to the ship.

The report of wounded people prior to any of the Israelis landing on the ship is proof that the Israelis opened fire first.


07 Jun 10 - 11:52 PM (#2922839)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

When Israelis and Palestinians can sit across from one another and not see a Jew or not see an Arab. then this insane issue will be resolved.

I would put it differently. When the Palestinians can sit across a table from an Israeli and not see an oppressor, what is when this insane issue will be resolved.

Palestinians have no problem with Jews. They are very welcoming to Jews who come among them as equals. The people they have a problem with are those who come among them in order to subjugate them and clear them from the land. We know this because there are many Jews among them already, as equals, and the Palestinians call these Jews their cousins and hold them in very high regard.


08 Jun 10 - 12:10 AM (#2922845)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

For the third time, here's the video with the proof that it was the Israelis who opened fire first, for those who couldn't be arsed to watch it the first two times it was posted...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAuz6HoqV4g


Once again, in this video, which is from the live feed, which I and many other people watched in its entirety while this was going down, we can see an English speaking reporter (and several Turkish and an Arab) reporting the fact that people on the ship have been wounded. A few minutes later, they report the arrival of a helicopter, and we can see the helicopter come into view and let down a rope. Then we see the Israelis leave the helicopter and absail down the rope. After that, they report the presence of a second helicopter.

Passengers were wounded before any Israelis were even aboard the ship. So they can't possibly have been acting in self-defense. And the witnesses say that the Israelis opened fire first. The video evidence shows that it was the Israelis who opened fire first. The passenger testimony is that the Israelis opened fire first. The wounds to the back suggest execution style killings, or killings of people who were trying to get away. Many people who were watching the live feed say that the Israelis attacked first. All of the evidence shows that it was the Israelis who were the attackers, and the people on the ship who were the defenders.


08 Jun 10 - 12:13 AM (#2922846)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I should rephrase this...


Passengers were wounded before any Israelis were even aboard the ship. So the Israelis can't possibly have been acting in self-defense.


08 Jun 10 - 03:41 AM (#2922877)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John MacKenzie

It wisnae me Mr, a big boy done it an' ran awa!


08 Jun 10 - 03:59 AM (#2922879)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

They say people have been wounded.
We see no evidence.
They report "some kind of hemispheres" hitting the ship.
Not firing. Not grenades.
I suggest the boats were trying to get lines aboard.


08 Jun 10 - 05:16 AM (#2922899)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""{I read several accounts of the autopsy reports and no person died of a single bullet to the back, or back of the head, execution style, as some claim. At least one person had a rear-entry wound, but had four more front-entry ones.}""

Re-read Emma B's post 07 Jun 10 11:58 AM.

That quotes a number of sources which give the lie to your assertion.

Besides which, it is immaterial how, exactly, they were killed. The relevant point is that they were murdered during the commission of an act of piracy on the high seas, a crime under international law no matter what excuse is offered.

Don T.


08 Jun 10 - 05:29 AM (#2922905)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""There have been comments to the effect that the Jewish state should be ended, there has been considerable digital ink spilled in a downright weird argument that the Jews in Israel are not racially Jews but they are committing genocide on the millions of Palestinians (who have gone on being Palestinian all this time). There has also been an implication that Jews might be more justified if they were willing to die off in larger numbers during the recent conflicts.

The crux of the matter is a genocidal intent to deny Jews their Palestinian rights and Palestinian origins. (The whiff of Juden Raus is rich through this thread because it seeks to deny Jews their time and place without allowing them any other time or place. Without the extremists who can't stomach synagogues (and churches) along with mosques in the Middle East, the many wars of the young State Of Israel would have been not so much.
""

EGREGIOUS RUBBISH!

Before entering a debate, it is useful to consider the terms which relate to what you are discussing.

There is NO Jewish state. The state is Israel, and a proportion of its population follow the Jewish faith.


As long as those widely different terms are presented as synonymous, this discussion cannot reach any viable conclusions.

Look at the origins of the Jewish inhabitants of Israel.

They are German Jews, Polish Jews, Romanian Jews, Hungarian Jews, etc. etc.

The common factors are 1). Their faith is Judaism, and 2). They have taken Israeli Nationality by choice.

There is no Jewish race, as such.

Back on track, could somebody please explain how any of these sidetracking points have any bearing on Israels government sponsored piracy and murder?

Don T.


08 Jun 10 - 05:30 AM (#2922907)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

BTW, 700......and 701

Don T.


08 Jun 10 - 05:59 AM (#2922918)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

"The relevant point is that they were murdered during the commission of an act of piracy on the high seas, a crime under international law no matter what excuse is offered".........

..... and while bringing much needed aid to rebuild basic structures of hospitals and schools, provided mobility and medicines for the injured etc banned from import by the Israeli government.


"Israel's Gaza blockade targets Hamas while citizens suffer"

'Israel said the blockade was intended to hold Hamas – which it views as a terrorist group – "responsible and accountable" for rocket attacks on Israeli territory.

It is also intended to constrain Hamas's ability to rule in Gaza.

The blockade, preventing all exports from Gaza and confining imports to a limited supply of humanitarian goods, has failed to bring down Hamas but has heaped misery on Gaza's 1.5 million residents.

The UN humanitarian co-ordinator said last week that the formal economy in Gaza has "collapsed" and 60% of households were short of food.
According to UN statistics, around 70% of Gazans live on less than $1 a day, 75% rely on food aid and 60% have no daily access to water.

The effect of the blockade was felt even more acutely in the aftermath of the invasion of the strip by Israeli forces in the winter of 2008-9, as materials needed for reconstruction were delayed or banned from entering Gaza.

A UN factfinding mission described the blockade as "collective punishment". .

From a simple straightforward report in The Guardian on 31 May 2010


If you really care for and want to bring about peace and reconciliation and diminish the causes of revenge and resentment then please call for the end to this blockade condemned as illegal and immoral by voices of protest throughout the world and inside Israel itself.

In the name of sanity how can the ban on childrens toys coriander and sage constitute a security risk to a country armed with nuclear devices?
Did shoes and clothing constitute offensive weaponry for 2.5 years before having their status as a security threat recently removed?

The ban is perpetuating a situation in which over 90% of industrial establishments in Gaza are closed or are operating at less than 10% of capacity.
Does the fact that Israel prevents the entry of margarine in large containers designed for the production of foodstuffs in Gaza, while it allows the entry of margarine in small packages (made in Israel) promote the economy in Gaza?

Which ever way you look at this it is -

'Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part'


08 Jun 10 - 06:48 AM (#2922940)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

Some American Jewish people speak out about their 'jewish values'


08 Jun 10 - 06:48 AM (#2922942)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

There are many web articles alleging bias (on many topics) in the Guardian, This is just one example:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100017075/the-guardian-may-not-be-anti-semitic-but-it-is-biased-and-hypocritical/

There was an earlier allegation that a Canadian publication chain (currently owned by a rich Jewish family, but up for sale) is biased. I asked for the sources. A poster made reference to such allegations as "the American Educational Trust, (publishes The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs) as the proof. A Google check of this organization and publication shows a large number of claims of bias, and alleges links by some of it's members to to sketchy causes and other organizations....that seriously questions whether these two are themselves "unbiased source of information" on bias in other publications.


08 Jun 10 - 07:35 AM (#2922962)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.

Sorry, but the Telegraph is in no position to accuse the Guardian of bias. The Guardian prints pieces from many sources, and many political positions. Any one piece may show bias, and the paper has a particular political position, but the Telegraph has as well, and less of a custom of informing its readers of opposing views. When a source accuses the Guardian of bias, look very carefully at it. The Guardian is one of very, very few papers in the UK which is not determinedly right-wing or in the grip of owners with personal axes to grind.

Meanwhile, here is a link to Henning Mankell's account of the events on the high seas and their aftermath.

Henning Mankell on the flotilla

Our intelligent members will be able to take account of any way in which this differs from their own bias.

Penny


08 Jun 10 - 07:40 AM (#2922965)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

Ed. of course the media are writing from a particular bias - however some are much more upfront about this than others

Certainly The Guardian has never disguised its political allegiance in supporting 'progressive' policies in the UK and the Telegraph has traditionally been referred to as the 'Tory graph'

I believe I was the poster who drew attention to the unabashedly pro Israeli policy of the CanWest empire because an item from that news source was presented as an objective statement of factual news reporting

I also plead 'guilty' of presenting another opposing perspective as I believe people are frequently fed a single political outlook and presentation of international situations by the prevailing media of their country and I have an endangered 'liberal' belief in hearing both sides and making your own judgement


I love the first line of the opening paragraph from the Torygraph however

"Having cheap allegations of racism thrown at you in order to close down the debate can be very damaging."

Kinda sums up a lot of the calculated use of fabricated charges of anti Semitism against posters on this thread to discredit and divert from the reality of the humanitarian crisis in Gaza

(p.s. Ed West also has some strong views on abortion and immigration of Islamic workers into Europe) which I personally disagree with as well.


08 Jun 10 - 07:41 AM (#2922966)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.

Sorry about the link - it isn't to Mankell's own pice but an interview with him. I'll chase up his own piece.

Penny


08 Jun 10 - 07:43 AM (#2922968)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.

Here's an audio version.

Mankell audio


08 Jun 10 - 07:44 AM (#2922969)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

I do not know the legal position, but this person thinks he does.
1. A maritime blockade is in effect off the coast of Gaza. Such blockade has been imposed, as Israel is currently in a state of armed conflict with the Hamas regime that controls Gaza, which has repeatedly bombed civilian targets in Israel with weapons that have been smuggled into Gaza via the sea.

2. Maritime blockades are a legitimate and recognized measure under international law that may be implemented as part of an armed conflict at sea.

3. A blockade may be imposed at sea, including in international waters, so long as it does not bar access to the ports and coasts of neutral states.

4. The naval manuals of several western countries, including the US and England recognize the maritime blockade as an effective naval measure and set forth the various criteria that make a blockade valid, including the requirement of give due notice of the existence of the blockade.

5. In this vein, it should be noted that Israel publicized the existence of the blockade and the precise coordinates of such by means of the accepted international professional maritime channels. Israel also provided appropriate notification to the affected governments and to the organizers of the Gaza protest flotilla. Moreover, in real time, the ships participating in the protest flotilla were warned repeatedly that a maritime blockade is in effect.

6. Here, it should be noted that under customary law, knowledge of the blockade may be presumed once a blockade has been declared and appropriate notification has been granted, as above.

7. Under international maritime law, when a maritime blockade is in effect, no boats can enter the blockaded area. That includes both civilian and enemy vessels.

8. A state may take action to enforce a blockade. Any vessel that violates or attempts to violate a maritime blockade may be captured or even attacked under international law. The US Commander's Handbook on the Law of Naval Operations sets forth that a vessel is considered to be in attempt to breach a blockade from the time the vessel leaves its port with the intention of evading the blockade.

9. Here we should note that the protesters indicated their clear intention to violate the blockade by means of written and oral statements. Moreover, the route of these vessels indicated their clear intention to violate the blockade in violation of international law.

10. Given the protesters explicit intention to violate the naval blockade, Israel exercised its right under international law to enforce the blockade. It should be noted that prior to undertaking enforcement measures, explicit warnings were relayed directly to the captains of the vessels, expressing Israel's intent to exercise its right to enforce the blockade.
http://www.crethiplethi.com/the-gaza-flotilla-and-the-legal-maritime-blockade-of-gaza/israel/2010/


08 Jun 10 - 07:45 AM (#2922970)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

People keep on asserting that the blockade on Gaza was put in place because of rocket attacks on Israel. That is not true. It was imposed in 2007 when Hamas, having won democratic elections, took over control of Gaza after a conflict with Al Fatah, which, having lost the election, refused to relinquish power. Al Fatah held on to power in the West Bank, with backing from Israel, the USA and the EU and others.


08 Jun 10 - 07:48 AM (#2922973)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

As noted, that was merely one example....(of course). Those seeking a broad perspective to frame opinions openly consider many sources and perspectives. Others, even those that may be intelligant in many other aspects of life, refer to limited and biased sources to reinforce their current opinions (not to be confused with facts). A useful tool to recognise this type of person is the tactic of attacking (attempting to silence or discredit) those who see an issue differently, those open to debate, and those who are not limited to narrow thinking or opinion on any issue.


08 Jun 10 - 07:51 AM (#2922975)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

"Of course the media are writing from a particular bias - however some are much more upfront about this than others"

If so, what about the bias of the American Educational Trust, and The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs?


08 Jun 10 - 07:53 AM (#2922977)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.

Here's Mankell's piece, at last.

Mankell's flotilla diary

And that law suggests it is made up by those with the guns to justify anything they do. Such as sinking the Rainbow Warrior, torpedoing South Korean ships, sabotaging ships on their way to Cyprus, whatever. If it has any validity, surely it was devised to deal with gun running and suchlike aggressive behaviour, not prefabs, coriander and butter.

If the law is on the side of the Israelis in this, then Mr Bumble was right. It needs reworking for the modern world. It can't be left to just one state to declare that it applies in any particular case.

Penny


08 Jun 10 - 07:54 AM (#2922979)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

Keith - we were talking about bias in reporting

Could I just point out for anyone that doesn't actually look at the source of your quote 'justifying' the attack on the flotilla it is on the same page as an appeal for money

"IF YOU WANT TO SUPPORT OUR WORK, PLEASE CONSIDER MAKING A DONATION.

YOUR DONATION WILL ALSO HELP US IN OUR ABILITY TO SUPPORT A PRO-ISRAEL LOBBY"

well no doubt about any bias there?


08 Jun 10 - 08:09 AM (#2922993)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

Ed, as well as examining some of the reports presented here I have, wherever possible provided the sources of my quotes and some information about the political stance and background of the contribtors and what organization they may represent

When I quoted from The American Educational Trust I also provided the information that it was
'a non-profit foundation incorporated in Washington, D.C. by retired U.S. foreign service officers' and
'best known for publishing the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs ("The Washington Report")

Without going back over many posts, some of which are nothing less than personal attacks of anti semitism on some members, I think I might also have provided some additional summarized information from Wiki that -

'AET's founders included Edward Firth Henderson, the AET's first chairman, and a former British Ambassador to Qatar; Andrew Killgore, AET's first president, who was U.S. Ambassador to when he retired from theUnited States Foreign Service in 1980; and Richard Curtiss, AET's first executive director, who was chief inspector of the U.S. Information Agency when he retired from the U.S. Foreign Service in 1980.'

or that

'AET's Foreign Policy Committee has included former U.S. ambassadors, government officials, and members of the United States Congress, including the late Democratic Senator J. William Fulbright, and Republican Senator Charles Percy, both former chairmen of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and members of its Board of Directors and advisory committees "receive no fees for their services."'

In this way you are at liberty to compare their perspective with that of the CanWest article and make your own judgement about which is likely to be most objective which was my intention.


08 Jun 10 - 08:15 AM (#2922998)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Emma, I am sure you are right that the info is from a pro Israel site.
I posted it because it sounded authoratative on international law on blockades.
I am no expert myself.
Are you saying that it is factually incorrect?


08 Jun 10 - 08:59 AM (#2923018)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

Keith, I'm saying it is how Israel interprets the law

According to a legally recognised document called the "San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea" under some of the key rules, a blockade must be declared and notified to all belligerents and neutral states, access to neutral ports cannot be blocked, and an area can only be blockaded which is under enemy control.

One view is that "On the basis that Hamas is the ruling entity of Gaza and Israel is in the midst of an armed struggle against that ruling entity, the blockade is legal,"

Under the U.N. Convention of the Law of the Sea a coastal state has a "territorial sea" of 12 nautical miles from the coast over which it is sovereign.
Ships of other states are allowed "innocent passage" through such waters.

There is a further 12 nautical mile zone called the "contiguous zone" over which a state may take action to protect itself or its laws.

HOWEVER even the same lawyers that argue the sea blockade can be legally justified also say

"strictly beyond the 12 nautical miles limit the seas are the "high seas" or international waters"

The Israeli navy said on Monday the Gaza bound flotilla was intercepted 120 km (75 miles) west of Israel.
The Turkish captain of one of the vessels told an Istanbul news conference after returning home from Israeli detention they were 68 miles outside Israeli territorial waters.

Under the law of a blockade, intercepting a vessel COULD apply globally so long as a ship is bound for a "belligerent" territory, some legal experts argue.

HOWEVER, "If force is disproportionate it would be a violation of the key tenets of the use of force," said Commander James Kraska, professor of international law at the U.S. Naval War College


It is reported today that

"The Israeli military will conduct its own investigation of the May 31 commando raid on a flotilla of ships trying to breach its blockade of the Gaza Strip, which left nine pro-Palestinian activists from Turkey dead."

Netanyahu said he hasn't agreed to a proposal by United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon for an international investigation of the incident.
Israel refused to participate in a UN report on the 2008 Gaza war

Benny Begin, a minister without portfolio, said on Israel Radio
"The questions that need to be examined are whether the naval blockade was imposed according to international law, and was the way it was enforced on May 31 according to that law in all its interpretations,"

HOWEVER, as can be seen from the uncompromising statement from the Israel Ministry of foreign Affairs posted 08 Jun 10 - 07:44 AM it has already been stated by Israel that the blockade and therefore any attack is absolutely justified in legal terms making an internal military investigation the whitewash many people fear, from previous such internal enquiries, it will be

There are many opinions about the legality of the blockade and the assault on a ship in International waters

Israel continues to dismiss all these interpretations as the products of

'numerous NGOs and "human rights groups" have issued harsh and one-sided condemnations of Israel's actions.
Many of these statements have been couched in the terminology of international law…….. these claims are legally incorrect or dubious.

They represent the continued exploitation of international law for political ends."

Yeah! Everyone's doing it - sigh


08 Jun 10 - 09:06 AM (#2923026)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Thanks Emma.
It seems to be a question of interpretation and not a clear cut case of legal or illegal.


08 Jun 10 - 09:24 AM (#2923039)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Keith, considering the fact that all of the testimonies of the flotilla members who were in visual range say the same thing - that the government of Israel opened fire first, the fact that in what is quite clearly a very fearful and worried state, the correspondents report wounded people, and the fact that we can prove that everything else Israel has said about what happened is a lie, there is no credible evidence that the Israelis were acting in self-defence, and all of the evidence shows that they attacked first.

And also the fact that the government of Israel won't release all of the footage and still shots that the people on the flotilla took of the events, and in fact, they dumped a lot of it overboard. If Israel had nothing to hide, it wouldn't have any problem with letting people see that material. That, alone, is proof enough of the Israelis guilt.


08 Jun 10 - 09:30 AM (#2923043)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Keith, please show me the specific wording in international maritime law that applies to this situation and that would make the blockade on Gaza legal.


08 Jun 10 - 09:32 AM (#2923044)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

"It seems to be a question of interpretation and not a clear cut case of legal or illegal."


And therein lies the problem Keith

Opinio Juris is a forum for informed discussion and lively debate about international law and international relations. It was founded by Chris Borgen, a law professor at St. John's University Law School, who started the site with Peggy McGuinness of the University of Missouri Law School and Julian Ku of Hofstra Law School

Here Prof Kevin Jon Heller is currently a Senior Lecturer at Melbourne Law School admits he is confused



Israel's defense of the blockade thus appears to create a serious dilemma for it. Insofar as Israel insists that it is not currently occupying Gaza, it cannot plausibly claim that it is involved in an international armed conflict (IAC),
with Hamas.
And if it is not currently involved in an IAC with Hamas, it is difficult to see how it can legally justify the blockade of Gaza.
Its blockade of Gaza, therefore, seems to depend on its willingness to concede that it is occupying Gaza and is thus in an IAC with Hamas.
But Israel does not want to do that, because it would then be bound by the very restrictive rules of belligerent occupation in the Fourth Geneva Convention **


There is, however, another possibility: that Israel's blockade of Gaza is not a "belligerent blockade" at all, but is instead something akin to a "pacific blockade," defined by the Dictionary of International Law as "a form of coercive measure short of war, whereby a state (or group of states) bars access to the coast of a state or part of it in order to prevent entry and exit of ships of the state under blockade."
I say "akin to" a pacific blockade, because — as the definition indicates — such blockades assume that the blockaded entity is a state, not a non-state actor.

Even if Israel's blockade of Gaza would analogically qualify as a pacific blockade, however, it would still be of questionable legality: pacific blockades are only legal with the approval of the Security Council, according to the Dictionary of International Law, and the Security Council has never approved the blockade of Gaza"

full article

** it is claimed by many - including the Government of Canada that -

"This construction (the 'seraration barrier')is contrary to international law under the Fourth Geneva Convention.
Canada not only opposes Israel's construction of a barrier extending into the occupied territories, but also expropriations and the demolition of houses and economic infrastructure carried out for this purpose."


08 Jun 10 - 10:11 AM (#2923078)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Carol, from Emma's post "Under the law of a blockade, intercepting a vessel COULD apply globally so long as a ship is bound for a "belligerent" territory, some legal experts argue"

Most or all of those on board were intensely partisan against the Israelis. They were also clearly expecting trouble, or why the life jackets? They were witness to terrifying violence. I do not find their testimony reliable.

Remember that Israelis have stopped ships on many previous occasions, and stopped other vessels that night.
All without violence.
It is possible to abseil with a weapon in hand. I suspect that the soldiers were not expecting a fight and sought not to appear provacative, otherwise I simply can not believe that Israeli commandos could be so readily overcome by people armed only with clubs.


08 Jun 10 - 10:34 AM (#2923087)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.

No, the problem is that Israel, very much like the U.S. from wch it learned the stance, considers itself generally "EXEMPT" from the rules that govern the rest of the world.


08 Jun 10 - 10:42 AM (#2923093)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

"No, the problem is that Israel, very much like the U.S. from wch it learned the stance, considers itself generally "EXEMPT" from the rules that govern the rest of the world. "

Unlike it's law abiding neighbours.


08 Jun 10 - 10:43 AM (#2923094)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

"They were also clearly expecting trouble, or why the life jackets?"

Of course they were expecting trouble Keith - Israel's foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, said the country was prepared to stop the flotilla with its cargo of humanitarian aid "AT ANY COST."

A previous incident in December 2008 when a similar attempt to reach Gaza by sea ended in the activists' boat being rammed by the Israeli navy
The passengers on board the flotilla were wearing life jackets - not flak jackets!!

"I suspect that the soldiers were not expecting a fight and sought not to appear provacative, otherwise I simply can not believe that Israeli commandos could be so readily overcome by people armed only with clubs."

I believe they were possibly not expecting a 'fight' too, but dropping from the sky at 4 am in the morning masked and apparently armed to the teeth - could you tell a paint gun from a lethal rifle under those conditions? - the passengers were quite obviously convinced they were under lethal attack as in fact they were when the commandos opened fire with their pistols at close range at their attackers, one of whom, Cevdet Kýlýçlar who was shot in the head was armed solely with his camera

As they were dropped one by one I suppose they were heavily outnumbered by the passengers

Despite such overwhelming odds however none of the Commandoes were killed despite the photos of the 'weapons' claimed to be found on board

It is alleged that the final commando to be lowered was responsible for killing at at least six of the victims and it is reported that he is in line for a medal of valour.

Is that a 'provocation'?


08 Jun 10 - 10:50 AM (#2923099)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.

It's very curious that the Russians have chosen now to reveal that they are trying some of their soldiers for theft of cards belonging to the dead of the Polish air crash - I wonder if it is to show up the Israelis who have similarly stolen cards, cameras and so on.

Penny


08 Jun 10 - 11:01 AM (#2923104)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

"and stopped other vessels that night.
All without violence."

Well, this was the official Hasbara spin while the passengers from the flotiila were still held in prisons in Israel

However on returning home a very different picture to the peaceful 'takeover' has developed


Activist Dimitris Gielalis, who had been aboard the Sfendoni, was among six Greeks who returned home on Tuesday.

"Suddenly from everywhere we saw inflatables coming at us, and within seconds fully equipped commandos came up on the boat," he said.

"They came up and used plastic bullets, we had beatings, we had electric shocks, any method we can think of, they used."

Mr Gielalis said the boat's captain was beaten for refusing to leave the wheel, and had sustained non-life-threatening injuries, while a cameraman filming the raid was hit with a rifle butt in the eye.

"Of course we weren't prepared for a situation of war," he said.


Aris Papadokostopoulos was aboard the Free Mediterranean, travelling behind the Mavi Marmara and carrying mainly Greek and Swedish activists.

"The Turkish ship [the Mavi Marmara] was in front of us... on which there was a terrible raid from the air and from the sea and from everywhere, with shooting," he said.

Mr Papadokostopoulos said aboard the other boats, commandos beat activists but nobody was gravely injured.

He said no-one put up resistance on the Free Mediterranean, which was carrying a cargo of wheelchairs, building material and medical and pharmaceutical aid.

"Some people were hit by clubs and electric shocks. During their interrogation, many of them were badly beaten in front of us," he said.

- Two accounts from the BBC of the experiences of passengers on other ships


08 Jun 10 - 11:31 AM (#2923122)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

An interesting opinion perspective, from The Halifax Chronicle Herald:
http://thechronicleherald.ca/Opinion/1186265.html


08 Jun 10 - 11:48 AM (#2923128)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"- Two accounts from the BBC of the experiences of passengers on other ships "

And I have seen other similar accounts from the other ships.



Well Bobad,

You have made a blanket acccusation against those who disagree with you on here that they believe Jews should leave Palestine.

You refuse to provide examples.

That is because there are none.

Which makes your accusation a lie.


In fact, upon analysis, you haven't bothered to back up any of your assertions with evidence.

In addition, you appeart to have ignored the available evidence.


That makes your other posts meaningless.


The fact yhe you consider a request for evidence to be a "tactic" is evidence that your point of view is a fantasy.


08 Jun 10 - 12:02 PM (#2923141)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"An interesting opinion perspective, from The Halifax Chronicle Herald:"

Yes - an nteresting comparison of the flotilla, carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza, and the Russian Navy, carrying nuclear missiles to cuba at the height of the cold war.

That's almost as absurd as Golda Meyers friend Gerald Kaufman comparing the IDF to Nazi soldiers.

And of course we coudn't possibly countenance such gross exaggeration could we.


08 Jun 10 - 12:34 PM (#2923157)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Keith, I want to see the language that defines who can blockade whom. The language I've seen so far says that a country can prevent foreign countries from bringing anything to the shores of the country that is enforcing the blockade. I have not yet seen any other definitions of who can conduct blockades and who can be blockaded.

There are some questions that arise with the language I have seen so far. The first, of course, is this - is Gaza a foreign country from Israel? If so, does that mean that Gaza is a country that is independent from Israel? The second is, if this is the case, then under the language I used above, Israel cannot be said to be preventing anything from reaching its own shores if it blockades Gazan waters.

I want to see the specific language as it appears in international maritime law, and how this language specifically applies in relation to both Israel and Gaza.


08 Jun 10 - 12:37 PM (#2923164)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

"They were also clearly expecting trouble, or why the life jackets?"

They knew from experience that Israel could attack in such a way that they might need the life jackets. Prior ships had been rammed by Israeli war ships. The members of the flotilla themselves said they anticipated the possibility that they might be sunk. But none of them expected Israeli helicopters to fire on sleeping passengers, which many of the passengers report did happen.


08 Jun 10 - 12:43 PM (#2923168)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Most or all of those on board were intensely partisan against the Israelis. They were also clearly expecting trouble, or why the life jackets? They were witness to terrifying violence. I do not find their testimony reliable.

Well that's easy enough to clear up, isn't it? All Israel has to do is show all of the video and photographic evidence that they confiscated from the passengers. Right? Now I wonder why they won't do that.

And you find Israel's account credible even though they have been proven to have lied about everything else they have said about the flotilla? Why is that, Keith? Is it your own partisanship in this matter?


08 Jun 10 - 12:55 PM (#2923177)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

And if the passengers on the ships were so partisan that they would lie about what happened, why is it that they are the only ones who are calling for all of the video and photographic evidence to be released?   Really, don't insult our intelligence and yours with that "passengers can't be believed" nonsense. They are the ones who want everyone to see all of the evidence, while the government of Israel has done everything it possibly could to hide evidence.


08 Jun 10 - 01:00 PM (#2923184)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

There is NO Jewish state. The state is Israel, and a proportion of its population follow the Jewish faith.

Sorry, Netanyahu says it's a Jewish state. He demands that Hamas recognize it as a Jewish state. You're just flat-out wrong. STBU.


08 Jun 10 - 01:08 PM (#2923187)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

Israel is the successor state to Mandate Palestine, established in 1921 ( along with Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and others) as the Jewish Homeland. It was a spoil of war awarded to Great Britain as a result of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.

In 1923 the British took 77% of the Mandate territory and created the Arab Homeland of Transjordan, where NO JEWS were allowed to settle, since the Mandate Power ( Great Britain) did not wish to have conflicts between the Jewish and Moslim populations. The remaining 23% was to be the Jewish Homeland.


08 Jun 10 - 01:10 PM (#2923188)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

That's all entirely irrelevant, now, beardedbruce, since Israel as a Jewish state will not exist for very much longer. After that it will be a state of all of its citizens, and citizenship will not be determined by ethnicity or religion.


08 Jun 10 - 01:13 PM (#2923190)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

From your lips to God's ears, Carol.


08 Jun 10 - 01:25 PM (#2923198)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

"since Israel as a Jewish state will not exist for very much longer"

You mean that the Arabs nations will attack it AGAIN, trying to destroy it as they tried in 1948, and 1967?

Or do you mean that Iran will use it's nuclear weapons on Israel, and kill off both those pesky Jews and those annoying Palestinians? Or will they just give the WMD to Hezboallah, for them to use on all those non-existant missles that Iran sent them through Syria?

Either way, the Palestinian people will suffer greatly, and possibly be destroyed by the other Arab nations. I don't know why you think that a good thing- I don't.


08 Jun 10 - 01:33 PM (#2923204)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

No beardedbruce. It's going to happen the same way it happened in South Africa. It's going to collapse under its own weight, because Israel has it exists now is simply not sustainable. And the international civil society will not allow it.


08 Jun 10 - 01:36 PM (#2923205)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

I disagree with your assessment.


08 Jun 10 - 01:42 PM (#2923213)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

State-sponsored racism is so 19th century.


08 Jun 10 - 01:47 PM (#2923222)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I disagree with your assessment.

No problem. Just pull up a chair, grab yourself some popcorn, and watch what happens.


08 Jun 10 - 01:49 PM (#2923224)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger

What is not being acknowledged here is that Israel has become a right-wing theocracy.
The Likkud is dominated by zealots and not reasonable people. When this happens, as it could in the U.S., any attempt at a reasonable solution is thwarted.

Zionism (Zion being a biblical term) started out as a different idea. It is now synonymous
with a violent regime to oppress others who are not Zionists. It has been redefined in the way Christianity is becoming in the U.S.

Fortunately, not all Jews are Zionists. The charge of "anti-semitism" is specious.

"Operation Cast Lead" was the final straw. This is the new face of Zionism.


08 Jun 10 - 01:58 PM (#2923239)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

The only difference between Likud and the other parties, Stringsinger, has been that Likud has been more open about what it is doing. The other governments have been just as bad, but they've been a lot more secretive. None of them have ever had any interest in finding a resolution to the problem. Labor governments have built as many settlements and started as many wars as Likud governments have. And it's not the new face of Zionism, either. The early Zionist leaders were quite open about their agenda to ethnically cleanse all of the Palestinians from Palestine. This has been the plan all along.


08 Jun 10 - 02:01 PM (#2923244)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

I don't want to quarrel with CarolC, but I can't help making a couple of comments on what she writes. She accuses Keith A of Hertford of partisanship. An Italian saying: il bue dice cornuto all'asino (the ox calls "cornuto" the donkey, "cornuto" means both horned animal and cuckold). I mean, she is the best in partisanship this thread has to offer. Previously, she replied to me saying I had swallowed the propaganda: it is funny to receive this remark from a person that believes that a single-state solution ruled by Hamas would be a democracy and a safe place where to live for the Israeli people: it would not be safe even for Fatah! In my opinion, the Israeli-Palestinian situation is a tragedy, with rights and wrongs mixed together. You can't support a single part. Especially we who don't live there, we should not be even more extreme than them who have suffered victims, losses and pains, but try to make a balanced solution become possible. I can't see an alternative to a two-states solution, although I'm aware it 's getting more difficult to build every day that passes. Dear CarolC, partisanship from us is not suitable. The Italian group on the flotilla was formed by anti-Semite people, linked to so-called historians that pretend the Holocaust never happened: we don't need that political mob.


08 Jun 10 - 02:19 PM (#2923258)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

"Well Bobad,

You have made a blanket acccusation against those who disagree with you on here that they believe Jews should leave Palestine."

I've seen that game played around here too many times to get suckered into it.

Let's try this one:

Well Lox,

Show me where I said that those who disagree with me believe that Jews should leave Palestine. If you can't then I guess that makes you a liar.


08 Jun 10 - 02:28 PM (#2923268)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.

State-sponsored racism is so 19th century.

But its recently been experiencing a real renaissance, Mouse.


08 Jun 10 - 02:29 PM (#2923271)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

In 2007 just before the celebration of Italy's Holocaust Memorial Day the Italian government approved a bill that made denying the Holocaust a crime and stiffened prison sentences for those found guilty of inciting racial hatred.
The decree, submitted by Justice Minister Clemente Mastella, received unanimous approval by the Romano Prodi cabinet..

As this crime can result in a prison sentence I think Roberto that, if you do actually possess ANY evidence for your accusations, and it is not just another Hasbara inspired piece of smear tactics, then you have a moral duty to either put up or - shut up!


08 Jun 10 - 02:35 PM (#2923277)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Roberto, please show me where I said that one state in Palestine/Israel would or even should be ruled by Hamas.

And I'm not the one who started the accusations of partisanship. That would be Keith who did that. He really is in no position to be pointing fingers in that regard. And I would see no reason to point out the partisanship on this issue if people who are engaging in it wouldn't be pointing fingers at others for being partisan.


08 Jun 10 - 02:48 PM (#2923288)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"Show me where I said that those who disagree with me believe that Jews should leave Palestine. If you can't then I guess that makes you a liar. "

Sorry mate - this point is fundamentally flawed.

You accused "some" of this vierw and it wasn't the ones you agree with.

But you could easily clarify this one anyway by stating all those on this thread who you believe are of the opinion that Jews should leave Palestine.

You have asserted that "some" are of that view.


Who?


I can say with absolute certainty that all those you accuse of believing Jews shuld leave Palestine are in disagreement with you on this thread.


This isn't a game for me.

Only you have called it a game.

That says a lot about you and nothing about this discussion or anyone taking part.

Your slander, evasiveness and refusal to back up any point marks you out as dishonest.

Show some backbone and say who you mean and say where they have either said, implied or insinuated that Jews should leave Palestine.

If you, don't you mark yourself out not only as dishonest, but also as spineless.


08 Jun 10 - 03:34 PM (#2923325)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.

Somewhere back up this thread, someone wrote about the genetic connection between Jews, Kurds and Armenians. That would be the Cohen Y chromosome, I seem to recall. I also seemed to recall something about the Journal of Immunology having to rip a paper out of issues on a related subject, so I went and looked it up.

The article, which showed that there were very close similarities between Palestinians and Jews, has had some argument about it, which anyone can check up on by googling "Jews Palestinians immunology paper", and so I'm not going to refer to it. It was included by a guest editor who happened to be the lead author.

Instead, that among the discussion of this withdrawn paper, reference was made to another, produced in Israel by Israeli scientists, on genetic connections between populations. The conclusion was that all Jewish groups, Sephardim, Ashkenazim, and even the Ethiopian Jews show genetic connectedness. But, buried in the work was the finding that Sephardic Jews and Palestinians show a greater genetic likeness than between either group and Ashkenazi Jews.

Which places both groups with the same ancestry, and the same link to the place of origin. (I have seen it said that the Palestinian Christians are probably the descendants of Jews who lived there in Jesus' time, and who never left after 76 AD, but who knows.)

It doesn't help either side if arguments are based on fantasy.

Penny


08 Jun 10 - 03:58 PM (#2923333)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic

Penny S:

If the research you are talking about is true (and I'm not saying it is) it would support my argument that a good deal of the problems of the Mideast are due to the Jewish Israelis not being accepted as 'Palestinians' in their own right. Consider that Israel has a considerable Arab population and is multi-ethnic, multi-believer. The great majority of its neighbors not only are the opposite of this, they can't IMAGINE what it would be like to allow minority rights.

This is a miasma of intolerance in which the only oasis of democracy, tolerance, and freedom is constantly being set up as a fall guy in order to eliminate it.


08 Jun 10 - 03:58 PM (#2923334)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

And, there is Helen Thomas.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andy-ostroy/helen-thomass-sad-new-leg_b_604332.html


08 Jun 10 - 03:59 PM (#2923336)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

OK Lox, it's been fun but you are becoming a little too obsessed for me so I'll just say TTFY, have fun playing with yourself.


08 Jun 10 - 04:08 PM (#2923342)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

OK,here is a Guardian article that some folks wont like:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jun/06/israel-gaza-blockade


08 Jun 10 - 04:12 PM (#2923345)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

Anyone giving a course on "How to silence someone with whom you disagree"?


08 Jun 10 - 04:14 PM (#2923346)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

No worries Bobad.

Your inability to support your slander and you're inabilty to step up and be specific is recorded clearly.

Equally your inability to refute or come clean is recorded clearly.

False accusationsn no evidence and something to hide.

If you're happy with that then so be it.


08 Jun 10 - 04:39 PM (#2923353)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

EdT,

Your columnist states - "The point to make against them is not that there are worse countries than Israel, which receive nothing like the same level of opprobrium – even though there are and they most certainly do not – but that Israel's critics ignore the uses of racism and forget the lessons of the 20th century."

This is true sometimes.

It is also true that Israel uses racism and seems to have ignored the big lessons of the 20th cetury too.


However, there is another important reason why many people from the centre right to the left wing in the west are very vocal about Israels actions in Gaza.

It is this: Israel is meant to be on our side.

Israel is meant to be our ally.

We in the UK and in the USA who have a problem with the way our governments treat Arabs, also have a problem with the way our friends treat Arabs.

I, as a UK citizen, am appalled that my government and its friends seem to have so littlwe regard for human life.

My team misrepresents me about as far as it is humanly possible to do so.

My team - the allies - team UK, USA, Israel ...

We, the last bastion of human rights and democracy - we judge feudal archaic and undemocratic countries the world over who aren't on our team, like China, Burma, North Korea etc etc.

We say to them "No" the way you treat your people and the territories you occupy is wrong and you must stop.

Only we can't say that.

If we say that then we are hypocrites.

Because our governments kill more people in foreign countries and inflict more human rights abuses than any of 'the other team' do.

We in the UK expect much better from our government than this.

We expect much better from our ally the USA.

And we expect much better from our ally Israel.


Team UK, USA, Israel, claims to represent me around the world.

What's more, it spends my taxes doing so - even Israel.


Well I would like to be clear that I do not support the actions of my team around the world.

I think my team is corrupt, dishonest, murderous, racist and lacking a conscience.


In response to my well founded criticism, my team opens old sensitive wounds and tells lies.


I despise my team and I hope it gets replaced.


08 Jun 10 - 04:50 PM (#2923359)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

I have to confess that I find the 'opinion' piece by Nick Cohen both disturbing and disturbed

The best I can say about it is that I go along entirely with the assessment and criticism of his extreme recent anti-Islamic rhetoric by Mehdi Hasan writing in the New Statesman


"Nick Cohen, formerly of this parish, has devoted his latest Observer column to the Israel-Palestine conflict, and the siege of Gaza. I can't help but respond to some of his weird and wonderful claims.

He has (since) become monomaniacally obsessed with Islamism, Islam and Muslims, and an ardent defender of the United States, the UK and Israel. He has described the British army as the "armed wing of Amnesty International" while castigating Amnesty itself for being an "evil corporation".


Perhaps Cohen should read the Israeli press before he sounds off about anti-Semitism and the Jewish state. Here are four headlines from Haaretz last week:
Ari Shavit's "Fiasco on the high seas"
Reuven Pedatzur's "A failure any way you slice it"
Yossi Sarid's "Seven idiots in the cabinet"
Gideon Levy's "Operation Mini Cast Lead"

Does Cohen expect us to believe the staff of Haaretz are Jew-haters? And is Nelson Mandela, who described Palestine as "the greatest moral issue of the age", a lazy anti-Semitic liberal as well? "

Nick Cohen's Nazi confusion


08 Jun 10 - 04:56 PM (#2923366)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Not only that, but we (those of us in my country, at least), are being forced to support what Israel does with our tax dollars, which makes us complicit. And on top of that, we have to fight against people, like the guy who wrote that opinion piece, who are actually supporting Israel's racism and human rights abuses. There is no other country besides the US that is guilty of as much racism and as many human rights abuses as Israel, that gets so much support in countries like the US and other countries in the West.


08 Jun 10 - 05:10 PM (#2923378)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Mr. Cohen also conveniently ignores the fact that all of Israel's neighbors, including Hamas, have said they are willing to accept Israel's existence within the pre '67 borders. But this characterization of his that all of Israel's neighbors want to kill Jews is a libel, and it arises from his own racism and hatred of Arabs and Muslims, and it has no basis whatever in truth.


08 Jun 10 - 05:33 PM (#2923386)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

Some findings from a 2008 study on coexistence in Israel from the John F. Kennedy School of Government of Harvard University

•    A great majority of both Jewish citizens (73%) and Arab citizens (94%) want Israel to be a society in which Arab and Jewish citizens have mutual respect and equal opportunities.
•    68% of Jewish citizens support teaching conversational Arabic in Jewish schools to help bring Arab and Jewish citizens together.
•    77% of Arab citizens would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world.
•    More than two-thirds of Jewish citizens (69%) believe contributing to coexistence is a personal responsibility; a majority (58%) of Jewish citizens also support cabinet level action.
•    Arab citizens and Jewish citizens both underestimate their communities' liking of the "other."
•    Urgent action on coexistence in Israel is desired: 66% of Jewish citizens and 84% of Arab citizens believe the Israeli government investments should begin now, and not wait until the end of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.

http://content.ksg.harvard.edu/leadership/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=511&Itemid=115


08 Jun 10 - 05:36 PM (#2923388)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic

There you go again. Pretty much nothing in that last scribe of your is true. You mis-state the position of Hamas and you ascribe motivations to those you do not know purely as an ad-hominem attack "I disagree with them therefore they are racists, therefore what they say is wrong, therefore I don't need to spend a lot of time on logic, analysis, and reasoned argument."

Par for your course, CarolC.


08 Jun 10 - 06:07 PM (#2923405)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Thank you Bobad.

That information supports my view exactly.

That the current Israeli administration rides roughshod, not only over residents of Gaza, but also ignores the views of many Israelis, including the views of many Israeli Jews.

It is also my view that the Israeli administration lies to Isrealis and non Israelis alike to justify its actions.


Your post confirms my view exactly that this issue is not about blaming ordinary Israelis, Israeli Jews or non Israeli Jews, it is about the outrageous calumny and brutality inflicted by the IDF on behalf of the Israeli administration.


This is a view shared by all those on this thread who have condemned IDF piracy in the meditteranean on 31st may, with the exception of one who has explicitly admitted anti-semitic feelings.

With the exception of that poster, there is no evidence of anti semitism in the posts of any other poster, there remain only inferences, insinuations and accusations.


08 Jun 10 - 06:09 PM (#2923407)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/03/reporter-disputes-israeli-account-of-raid/?scp=1&sq=Lede


08 Jun 10 - 06:12 PM (#2923409)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

CarolC

Unfortunately, I do not trust any government from any country, west east, or elsewhere that is elected to represent the interests of its citizens...let alone to represent fairness anmd good towards humanity, let alone the interests of the majority in a country. It matters little how many times governments change, it really does not change much. So, considering history, should one really be surprised when governments do not represent your (and my) interests and spend tax dollars as they see fit...regardless of the country?

Do I have hope that the Palistine-Israel issues will ever be resolved? No...especially if the two peoples cannot trust each other and rely on the politics of others to resolve issues that only they can resolve. Peace and harmony comes down to trust, which is lacking between the two groups. When you can put asise a bias, and look at the case of either side...either can be seen as making sonme sense....but, that alone, without trust, does not advance any solution.

It is nieve to believe that involving others, (countries, religeous groups, military groups, etc) with a variety of interests (not all to benefit either peoples), to come up with a solution of how these folks can live in harmony together. Regardless of what they seem, there are many with other agendas....some of those do not put the suffering of regular folks high on the list...unfortunately, sometimes the suffering can be seen as beneficial, to promote a longer term cause.

You say that "all of Israel's neighbors, including Hamas, have said they are willing to accept Israel's existence within the pre '67 borders".

Maybe so, but of the two that actually matter, Hamas presents the current stumbling block, not Fatah. To be really trusted by Israel, a first step is for Hamas to change its charter (especially article 22), which is the real test to recognizing Israel's right to exist. To me, that is the real stumbling block to trust and peace.

I am sure you and your like thinking who dominate comments on this thread will disagree with this,(and most anything that does not support your fixed positions) and quite agressively so. But, you can by mere numbers and agression, force folks away from commenting and sharing perspectives (when they differ with yours, collectively) in this thread, and, then you can have it to yourselves.   But, that, and, a one sided Mudcat discussion, does little to change or get anyone closer to reolving the issues (real, perceived or denied, as such), nor advance peace and humanity in the region for all.But, you may feel in some odd way that you won some type of a battle...if so, I wish you good with that.


08 Jun 10 - 06:12 PM (#2923410)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

There you go again, Robomatic, pretending that the proof of the falsity of your own statements has not already been posted several times right here in this thread. You seem to think that you can use the Jedi mind trick and just tell us something that is false and your having told us will be enough to convince us even despite all of the hard evidence to the contrary.

Par for your course, robomatic.


08 Jun 10 - 06:14 PM (#2923411)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Ed T, pull up a chair, get yourself some popcorn, and watch what happens...


08 Jun 10 - 06:16 PM (#2923415)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Robomatic,

Actually, Emmas article about cohen seems to support Carols view of him pretty well.

In addition, whether you trust them or not, it is true that Hamas have made the offer, twice in as many years, that Carol says they have made.

Just because you say she is making it up, doesn't make it so.

Her observations are drawn from evidence, not concocted out of feelings of loyalty.


08 Jun 10 - 06:47 PM (#2923439)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

Carolc<
Sometimes folks prefer if those with views do the popcorn/armchair thing in dicussions...I either participate in a meaningful way, or I contribute elsewhere....where it amtters more to all, But, I am still here.


08 Jun 10 - 07:07 PM (#2923455)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Carol, I don't agree that we are witnessing the beginning of the end for the current Israeli administration.

Though Bobads stats would tend to support a view that most Arabs and jews in Israel are sick of the current status quo.

I think the current US and Israeli administrations will do their best to absorb recent events, cover them up and repackage them with the result that the current status quo will continue to drag out for an indefinite period.

I also think that the best chance for all the people of Israel and Palestine is for a continued and sustained continuation of the recent surge in large scale, coordinated, non violent action.

It is likely in the end not just to attract support from international quarters, but also to draw support away from the more extreme elements of Israeli and Palestinian politics.


08 Jun 10 - 07:24 PM (#2923473)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

My own take is that if they could somehow remove the religious influence from government then the will of the majority would prevail but I don't know how that can be done in a democracy.


08 Jun 10 - 08:01 PM (#2923508)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

Lox, your last post made alot of sense.
I fear that the route it is taking will eventually lead to a great conflict some day....that could end in the death of all the peoples who now reside there, and possibly nearby....and a scorched landscape.


08 Jun 10 - 08:54 PM (#2923545)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""And that law suggests it is made up by those with the guns to justify anything they do. Such as sinking the Rainbow Warrior, torpedoing South Korean ships, sabotaging ships on their way to Cyprus, whatever. If it has any validity, surely it was devised to deal with gun running and suchlike aggressive behaviour, not prefabs, coriander and butter.""

Indeed Penny, and let's not forget using cloned passports, to gain access to a political opponent, in order to assassinate him on somebody else's territory.

And before anybody tries to claim that was a Mossad action, not supported by, or known to, the Israeli government, I have this to say.

IF the Israeli government doesn't know what Mossad is doing in its name, then it's time the government was replaced by a competent one.

I, however, do not believe for one second that Mossad operated illegally, on foreign soil, without the full knowledge, and under-the-counter support of that government.

Israel is out of control, and arguably it is that state which should be blockaded by the whole western world, before they start a war which we may have to finish.

Don T.


08 Jun 10 - 08:55 PM (#2923548)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Sometimes folks prefer if those with views do the popcorn/armchair thing in dicussions...I either participate in a meaningful way, or I contribute elsewhere....where it amtters more to all, But, I am still here.

That's nice, Ed. But nothing you say or do is going to change the outcome.


08 Jun 10 - 09:04 PM (#2923555)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I also think that the best chance for all the people of Israel and Palestine is for a continued and sustained continuation of the recent surge in large scale, coordinated, non violent action.

This is precisely what will bring about the end of the present regime in Israel. Those who were close to the unfolding of events in South Africa during the struggle against apartheid say that the situation in Palestine/Israel is very close to where things were when the apartheid regime in South Africa was dismantled. And everything that the government of Israel does these days has the effect of speeding things up and awakening ever larger numbers of people to what is really going on. It's already snowballing. It took several years of civil society action to bring about the end of the apartheid regime in South Africa, but the end was very quick when it finally came about.


08 Jun 10 - 09:07 PM (#2923557)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

Would this be the "political opponent" to whom you are referring DonT?

Mahmoud Abdel Rauf al-Mabhouh (Arabic: محمود عبد الرؤوف المبحوح; February 14, 1960[1] – January 19, 2010)[2] was a senior Hamas military commander and one of the founders of the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades. He was involved in several actions against Israel, including the abduction and murder of two Israeli soldiers.[3][4] In recent years, Mabhouh was also alleged to have played a key role in forging secret connections between the Hamas government in Gaza and the Al-Quds Force of the Revolutionary Guards in Iran.[5]

Al-Mabhouh was killed in the five-star Al Bustan Rotana Hotel in Dubai on January 19, 2010, having arrived in the country earlier that day from Syria using one of his five passports, under the fake name of Abdul Raaouf Mohamed.[6][7] The Dubai police have voiced their suspicions that he was murdered in his hotel room, with accounts of the cause of death ranging from suffocation to electrocution. Controversy has arisen over speculation that his death may have been an Israeli government-sanctioned assassination, and allegations that the assassins used fraudulently obtained European[8] and Australian [9] passports. At the time of his death Mabhouh was wanted by the Israeli, Egyptian and Jordanian governments.[10]


08 Jun 10 - 09:18 PM (#2923566)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""Sorry, Netanyahu says it's a Jewish state. He demands that Hamas recognize it as a Jewish state. You're just flat-out wrong. STBU.""

Then Who Pray are all the Arab citizens of Israel who seem to be quite numerous.

Since Judaism is a religion, it cannot possibly be a nationality.

Use your eyes, then marshal the little common sense you seem to exhibit, and find a rational explanation for the fact that the world is full of Jews of every nationality, including Israeli.

The state of Israel might well claim to be a Jewish state, but it is patently not so.

YOU ARE MISTAKEN, and the main reason is that you choose to believe the words of one of the world's most corrupt and bigotted men, Netanyahu, who would cheerfully kll every Arab and Muslim in Palestine if he thought he could get away with it.

Don T.


08 Jun 10 - 09:26 PM (#2923568)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

"That's nice, Ed. But nothing you say or do is going to change the outcome"

I suggest that't true for all those here...hopefully it's not a surprise for anyone posting their opinions....otherwise they will likely be dissapointed


08 Jun 10 - 09:29 PM (#2923570)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""Or do you mean that Iran will use it's nuclear weapons on Israel, and kill off both those pesky Jews and those annoying Palestinians? Or will they just give the WMD to Hezboallah, for them to use on all those non-existant missles that Iran sent them through Syria?

Either way, the Palestinian people will suffer greatly, and possibly be destroyed by the other Arab nations. I don't know why you think that a good thing- I don't.
""

Iran will use it's nukes. WHAT bloody nukes? It doesn't have any, nor the means to deliver them if it should succeed in making one or two.

ISRAEL, on the other hand, has plenty, and the malevolent will to deploy them, and the Iranians know that. They're not the stupid ragheads you would wish them to be BB.

""The palestinians will suffer greatly, and possibly be destroyed by the other Arab nations.""

They won't get that far if Israel has its way. They'll be destroyed by Israel. Would that suit you better BB. Would that, in your estimation, be a better idea?

Don T.


08 Jun 10 - 09:48 PM (#2923576)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""This is a miasma of intolerance in which the only oasis of democracy, tolerance, and freedom is constantly being set up as a fall guy in order to eliminate it.""

If this weren't so bloody tragic, I'd be rolling on the floor, howling with laughter.

I assume that the above conglomeration of absolute garbage refers to the state of Israel?

An oasis of fascism, racism, and discriminatory constraint, would probably be a more apposite description.

Ask the unfortunate residents of Gaza which of these statements seems, to them, to be closer to the truth.

Ask the survivors of the aid flotilla the same question.

Ask the relatives of the assassinated Hamas leader.

Ask anybody who has experience of the Israelis dedication to democracy (for Israelis only), tolerance (for Israelis only), and freedom (for Israelis only), whether they feel that it is Israel, or themselves, in greater danger of elimination.

Don T.


08 Jun 10 - 10:03 PM (#2923581)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""Would this be the "political opponent" to whom you are referring DonT?""

It would indeed, and a thoroughly nasty piece of work he was.

That does not, however, justify violating the territorial boundaries of a sovereign nation, using cloned passports of real people (which could, in some countries get the genuine passport holders a bullet in the head), and committing cold blooded, premeditated, murder.

Don T.


08 Jun 10 - 10:27 PM (#2923588)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

Yet another viewpoint from Haaretz, French philosopher Bernard Henri-Lévy


08 Jun 10 - 10:32 PM (#2923590)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I suggest that't true for all those here...hopefully it's not a surprise for anyone posting their opinions....otherwise they will likely be dissapointed

Actually, that's not true. The more people expose the truth of what is going on, the more people wake up and decide to do something about it. When I started speaking up about it, in 2002, the situation was very different than it is today. The number of people who understood the reality of what has been happening was vastly smaller than it is now. And without people exposing the truth in the face of the propaganda, and making sure that the propaganda is not the only narrative out there for people to see and hear, this would not be the case. For a very long time, the propaganda was the only narrative that was seen and heard by most people in the West. This has changed dramatically now that the internet makes it much easier to cut through the propaganda and the hasbara. Speaking up is what creates change. And as my friend said, "silence = death".

The reason there is nothing you can do to prevent this from happening is because you are repeating the discredited narrative that is becoming more and more difficult to maintain by the people trying to hold on to the status quo.


08 Jun 10 - 10:33 PM (#2923591)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

Since Judaism is a religion, it cannot possibly be a nationality.

Cramped thinking, anyone? Judaism is both a religion and an ethnicity. For the most part the two sets coincide.

Only Jews can own land in Israel (Goyim can [i]lease[/i] land from the government for up to 49 years). Only Jews are registered and called up in the selective service. Jews from anywhere in the world are given a free immigration pass, but no other people group has that privilege (certainly not displaced Palestinians whose land was stolen from them in either 1948 or 1967!). What else needs to be the case for it to be a Jewish state? Zionism is not about creating a secular democracy where Jews and everybody else can settle at will. It's about creating a Jewish state.


08 Jun 10 - 11:21 PM (#2923618)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Interesting perspective on Helen Thomas


08 Jun 10 - 11:38 PM (#2923626)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Here's more truth telling in the face of the propaganda...

http://freedocumentaries.org/teatro.php?filmID=104&lan=undefined&size=undefined


09 Jun 10 - 01:06 AM (#2923650)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

More on the subject of the link in my last post. Those Sailors and Marines must have been terrorists trying to bring weapons to Gaza disguised as humanitarian aid...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f98jxoUUrzg


09 Jun 10 - 01:24 AM (#2923653)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

Anti-semitism is an evil thing, and the rise in anti-Semitism cannot be anything but bad. Links to the Nazis like the Italian "don't buy from Jews" slogan, even if unintentional (and I have a hard time believing they are unintentional), are wronger than a wrong thing that's not right. And we at Mudcat know how wonderful the BNP isn't.

I really don't think the state of Israel is doing the worldwide cause of reducing anti-Semitism any favours, though, in its actions over the past couple of weeks. It is wrong to hate Jews because of what the Israeli government is doing. But it's also hard to say "Uncle Bob is really a nice guy" when everyone can see he's kicking the dog.


09 Jun 10 - 01:44 AM (#2923656)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Here's another musical note - a nice rendition of We Shall Overcome...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnMMHepfYVc


09 Jun 10 - 01:54 AM (#2923658)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

Awful. A political culture that lost the sense of the good things that produced decades ago and can't read the present.


09 Jun 10 - 02:25 AM (#2923665)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

A very bad idea to transform We Shall Overcome in a sectarian anthem, it had a universal breath. CarolC, being on a Folk and Traditional music site, I suggest your song to be Child #155.


09 Jun 10 - 02:33 AM (#2923667)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

In what country are you, Roberto?

That song is an icon of the US civil rights movement from our own apartheid days. Since the work on behalf of freedom and equal rights for Palestinians is every bit as much a civil rights movement as was the movement for which that song is an icon, it's actually a perfect song for this struggle. We're not a new movement. We are just people carrying the torch forward from the past to the present day manifestation of the same old struggle.


09 Jun 10 - 02:48 AM (#2923672)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

It is because it was a song from the Civil Rights Movement that I can't accept it to be bent to a sectarian support to a part that doesn't recognize at all civil rights, not even the idea of them, as Hamas regime. You are carrying the torch down a ditch. I'm from Italy.


09 Jun 10 - 03:35 AM (#2923682)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll

"I suggest your song to be Child #155."
There has been NO anti Semitism on this thread.
There has been virtually no evidence of anti Semitism in the general response to recent events in Gaza; certainly not in Britain and Ireland.
The reaction has been entirely against the brutal nature with which the Israelis have carried out their expansionist policies - nothing more than that.
Previous requests have been met with silence - let's try again - if you have any evidence of anti-Semitism on this thread, please produce it. If you are unable to, it is you who is carrying "the torch down a ditch" - into the gutter in fact Roberto.
Crying "anti- Semitism" whenever Israeli actions are criticised is a deep and harmeful insult to the real victims of anti-Semitism - you really should be ashamed of yourself.
Jim Carroll


09 Jun 10 - 04:03 AM (#2923691)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Carol, you asked "Keith, I want to see the language that defines who can blockade whom. The language I've seen so far says that a country can prevent foreign countries from bringing anything to the shores of the country that is enforcing the blockade. I have not yet seen any other definitions of who can conduct blockades and who can be blockaded."

A blockade is a method of warfare between belligerent states.
Here are the relevant San Remo sections.

Blockade

93. A blockade shall be declared and notified to all belligerents and neutral States.

94. The declaration shall specify the commencement, duration, location, and extent of the blockade and the period within which vessels of neutral States may leave the blockaded coastline.

95. A blockade must be effective. The question whether a blockade is effective is a question of fact.

96. The force maintaining the blockade may be stationed at a distance determined by military requirements.

97. A blockade may be enforced and maintained by a combination of legitimate methods and means of warfare provided this combination does not result in acts inconsistent with the rules set out in this document.

98. Merchant vessels believed on reasonable grounds to be breaching a blockade may be captured. Merchant vessels which, after prior warning, clearly resist capture may be attacked.

99. A blockade must not bar access to the ports and coasts of neutral States.

100. A blockade must be applied impartially to the vessels of all States.


09 Jun 10 - 04:07 AM (#2923693)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John MacKenzie

98



(and centenery post too)


09 Jun 10 - 04:12 AM (#2923694)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Regarding previous Israeli enforcements of the blockade, you may think they were heavy handed, but there has never been shooting or deaths apart from this one ship.
Explanation?
Israel certainly gained nothing and has been damaged by it.
Is it significant that families of some of the killed have stated that they wanted to be martyred?

You have said I am in no position to describe others as partisan.
I am suspicious of the statements of both sides and try to judge by their actions not their words.

How do you know that there are witheld videos?
Why should we not believe the evidence visible in the images that have appeared?


09 Jun 10 - 04:33 AM (#2923703)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

"The reason there is nothing you can do to prevent this from happening is because you are repeating the discredited narrative that is becoming more and more difficult to maintain by the people trying to hold on to the status quo".

CaroleC
Just because you post alot (the record on this tread speaks for itself), does mot mean you are posting anything new....that hasn't been said alot by your compadres on the web.


09 Jun 10 - 04:50 AM (#2923711)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

Jim Carroll, I'm not ashamed of myself for contrasting a view of the Israeli/Palestinian tragedy that considers only one side and doesn't value at all the right to exist of the other side. I'm not ashamed of saying that the single-state solution is only a more presentable version of the project to destroy Israel. Also the single-state solution as promoted by Israel's extreme right wing is totally unacceptable. South African Apartheid is a misleading comparison. I'm not ashamed to criticize them who propose a fairy-tale vision of Hamas democracy, as CarolC does. I'm not ashamed of saying that you can't make a present of We Shall Overcome to radical islamism. I'm sorry that you think I would stop saying these things and retraet in shame, I won't meet your wishes.

You write: "There has been virtually no evidence of anti Semitism in the general response to recent events in Gaza". As I've written previously, the Italian group on the flotilla was no doubt formed by anti-semite. Please, go and visit their site, TerraSantaLibera, HolyLandFree, there is also a section in English.. The demonstrations in Italy, as usual when Israel is involved, have had several anti-semite traits. In Italy… Only in Italy? I don't think so.


09 Jun 10 - 05:08 AM (#2923713)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

"Only Jews can own land in Israel (Goyim can [i]lease[/i] land from the government for up to 49 years)".

If the site below is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it is not, it indicates that the statement above is not a fact...but propaganda often repeated in the past.


http://www.meforum.org/370/can-arabs-buy-land-in-israel


09 Jun 10 - 05:09 AM (#2923714)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

How do you know there are withelf videos?

Keith, the passenger lists on the boats included a number of people of various nationalities - some of these had a more visable public face than others

Amongst them were -

Henning Mankell, 62, the Swedish author of the Inspector Wallander books, was released today and is flying home. He was on board with eight other Swedes. Mankell is married to the daughter of the film maker Ingmar Bergman.

"We are worried about our friends who are still in jail," he told the Expressen tabloid on a flight to Sweden.

The daily, which published a picture of Mankell standing in the aisle of the aircraft , reported that the author and Mehmet Kaplan, a Swedish MP, had been allowed to leave Israel.

The Swedish Foreign Ministry said four of the eleven Swedes who had been travelling with the flotilla when it was attacked early yesterday had been permitted to return home.

Anders Joerle, the Foreign Ministry spokesman, said that the others were not all being held at the same place and some had been imprisoned while some had simply been taken into custody.

The former US Ambassador

Edward Peck, 81, a former US Ambassador to Mauritania, was expected to arrive home today after the Free Palestine movement ship that he was on was seized by Israeli commandos.

Ann Peck, his wife, said that she received a brief e-mail from the Israeli Foreign Ministry yewsterday informing her that her husband was fine and on his way home. The e-mail said he was likely to arrive today, but that did not have a mobile phone with him and would call from an unnamed New York airport when he landed, she said.

"He gets himself into these messes, and the phone is going to ring," she joked.

Mrs Peck said that as of yesterday evening she had not spoken to US officials, nor had she been able to talk to her husband, since the raid. She had last spoke with him briefly by satellite phone just as the aid ships were leaving their rendezvous point.

"Knowing him I doubt there are regrets," she said. "I think he was really hopeful of it making a difference."

Mr Peck served as deputy director in President Reagan's White House Task Force on Terrorism.

The US Navy veteran

Joe Meadors, 63, of Texas, is a navy veteran. His wife Jean said yesterday evening that she believed he was safe, "but I'd like to hear that from him".

She said his exact status, whether under arrest, detention or otherwise, was unclear.

Mr Meadors served aboard the US Navy intelligence ship USS Liberty that was attacked by Israeli forces in 1967, killing 34 crew members.

"He hasn't had much luck with the Israelis," his wife said.

The television producer

David Schermerhorn, retired television commercial producer of Washington state, was also on the flotilla as an activist with the Cyprus-based Free Gaza Movement, his daughter told The Seattle Times.

Kate Schermerhorn said US Embassy officials had told her that the 80-year-old was taken into custody by Israeli officials and was unharmed.

The Germans

Norman Paech, 72, a former member of parliament, who was on board, told reporters in Berlin: "Personally, I saw two and a half wooden batons that were used . . . There was really nothing else. We never saw any knives. The Israeli Government justifies the raid because they were attacked. This was absolutely not the case. This was not an act of self-defence."

Mr Paech said that he had taken photographic evidence, but Israeli authorities confiscated his camera. "We had not prepared in any way to fight. We didn't even consider it. No violence, no resistance — because we knew very well that we would have absolutely no chance against soldiers like this. This was an attack in international waters on a peaceful mission . . . This was a clear act of piracy," he said.

A German doctor, Matthias Jochheim, was also on the ship and said he had seen four dead bodies and expected the death toll to be 15.

Inge Hoeger and Annette Groth, two German MPs who had been on board the convoy, also said that they had seen no one with weapons.

The Irish

The group of Irish activists held in Beersheba includes Paul McGeough, 56, an Irish-born journalist and chief correspondent of the Sydney Morning Herald. He has reported from the Middle East for two decades.

Dublin-based Shane Dillon, 36, first mate on the Challenger 1, was being deported today. He has served as chief officer on Irish and British merchant ships. He is the brother of the musician Eoin Dillon from the traditional band Kila.

Dr Fintan Lane, 43, is a historian, political activist and spokesman for the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign. He is the author or editor of seven books on modern Irish history.

Fiachra O Luain, 28, is peace activist from Donegal who stood unsuccessfully as an independent candidate in the 2009 European elections. He was one of the first people to protest over the US military using Shannon Airport.


The retired German MP specifically mentions the consfication of his camera others have reported since their return the consfication of all personal items like mobile phones etc that could have recorded images

Do you wish to accuse all these disparate individuals of lying?

This week The Israeli Defense Force has issued a "clarification" admitting it manipulated audio of its raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla.

On Friday, the IDF released audio of what it said was an exchange between Israel Navy officers and the crew of the Mavi Marmara, the main vessel in the flotilla. In it, voices could be heard telling the Israeli soldiers to "go back to Auschwitz" and "we're helping Arabs go against the US -- don't forget 9/11, guys."

But flotilla passengers quickly began disputing the veracity of the audio clip.

On Saturday, the IDF's public blog issued a "correction" explaining that the tape had been edited "so as to make it easier for people to listen to the exchange."

The IDF's latest version of the audio is actually the third version the military organization has released. Its first audio version of the incident, a one-minute clip released the day of the raid, did not include any of the controversial comments -- no voices can be heard saying "Go back to Auschwitz" or "remember 9/11."

Critics of Israel have suggested the audio clip -- and the IDF's admission it was edited -- shows the Israeli military is involved in a propaganda campaign to discredit the flotilla as a humanitarian effort. And investigative journalist Max Blumenthal notes that the IDF audio has already made its way into US media as fact.

"Hours after the IDF's admission, major news outlets which reported on the doctored audio clip as though it was a shocking revelation and not a scandalous forgery have still not corrected themselves," Blumenthal writes.


09 Jun 10 - 05:16 AM (#2923717)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll

Roberto,
As I said, there has been no evidence of anti-Semiitism either on this thread, nor in general to the recent events - what you describe is the response to Israel's continued and expanding occupation of Palestinian land - it has no place in this present argument.
I cannot speak for Italy - I can only comment on what I see here.
In citing an anti-Semitic ballad as a counter to CarolC's argument you are grossly distorting what she and the rest of us have to say on this affair.
Your "my faith, right or wrong" argument is totally unacceptible and does nothing but damage to your case.
If opposition to Israeli policy is 'anti-Semitic' then equally, support for their actions against the Gazans must be considered anti-Arab, or opposition to Mugabi, or China, or Cuba, or Korea, or Iran - or anywhere you care to name, has to be 'racist'.

According to a letter in today's Irish Post, it seems that I was not alone in my impression that some of the nine killings were executions.

"Madam, - The Turkish autopsies on the activists seeking to bring toys, school books and medicine to the people of Gaza show all but one of the victims of the attack were shot in the back or in the back of the head.
As anyone with military training (I have five years), could tell you; if you are being "attacked by someone with a kitchen knife or a metal bar, you shoot them in the chest. You do not turn your back to them, you do not ask them to turn around so that you can shoot them in the back of the head. And key to this over all, you do not waste your ammunition putting two, three or four bullets into the back of the head of an already dead man. Unless of course you are sending a message.
The victims of the Israeli slaughter in the international waters of the Mediterranean were in fact executed at point-blank range. This was done, with the usual Israeli Defence Forces precision. The only difference is, this time they were not carrying Irish passports. And their message is clear: don't try to help the people of Gaza, our genocide there isn't complete yet.
I am no longer morally able to vilify Hamas. It has my support from this day forward. - Yours, etc,
MICHEAL HIGGINS,
Adare,
Co Limerick."

Todays paper also carries a detailed report of an Irish protester (of Turkish origin) being systematically beaten by Israeli forces.
Jim Carroll


09 Jun 10 - 05:30 AM (#2923721)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

Real-Estate in Israel can be divided into 2 categories private owned, and State owned.

In the "State owned" category is included all real-estate that is owned by the state of Israel itself, and/or local-authorities/municipalities. and/or governmental institutions and/or governmental corporations


1. According to a basic (constitutional) Law called The Basic Law of the Lands of Israel, The State may not sell the ownership in it's lands to anyone, not even citizens of Israel and/or Israeli corporations.
Nevertheless, the state may and does rent (lease) it's real-estate, keeping the ownership always to itself.
The rent (lease) is usually for a period of 49 years that automatically renews itself for another 49 years, so in total – 98 years.
The long period of the rent makes the leaser almost an owner, yet the state, as formal owner, may intervene and/or veto requested actions in the real-estate (such as building on it, as any owner would).

A big part of the residential property in Israel is owned by the State and leased to the residents in the above way.

2. The State of Israel has rules restricting the possibility of foreign people and foreign corporations to lease State owned residential property.
In general, these limitations do not allow foreigners to acquire State owned property. There are several exceptions, one of which is that foreigners that are entitled to Israeli Citizenship according to the Israeli Law of Return would receive permission to buy (actually – as said above – rent) such State owned property.

The above Law gives this privilege to any Jewish person, man or woman, anywhere around the Globe.

Non-Jewish persons would have grave difficulties to own (actually – as said above – rent) state owned real-estate.

The above situation is both when renting the real-estate from the State itself ("first hand" property, that is new property/apartment) and when buying the rights from a former renter ("second hand" property/apartment)

3. In addition to the above, special problems may rise if the desired residential property is not in one of the cities but in a Kibbutz or other social-corporated village, usually integrating residential usage and agronomical usage of the lands.

Not only that these lands are owned by the State, therefore the above rules in art. 1-2 apply, but these social-corporations have inner rules restricting who may become a member in them. These inner rules usually do not allow foreigners and non-citizens to become their members.

- from Israeli Law - Laws regarding property ownership in Israel
information provided by Yosef Miller, adv.
Miller – Sieradzki
Advocates & Patent Attorneys
18 Mahanaim st, Haifa, Israel


09 Jun 10 - 05:57 AM (#2923729)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Emma, thanks again.
I did know that there were lots of nice people in the flotilla, and I am not questioning what happened on other vessels.

Ignoring claims and counter claims, I find it impossible to beieve that
1 Israelis thought it a good idea to make this the first and only antiblockade ship they have ever fired on.
2 Firing having started, commandos descended into the fight one at a time without weapons at the ready.

I find it easier to believe that some on board, willing to die as martyrs fighting Israel, flew at the soldiers and began clubbing them as can clearly be seen in video.

Abducted Israeli soldiers are invariably murdered and that would influence what happened next.


09 Jun 10 - 06:09 AM (#2923731)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""Cramped thinking, anyone? Judaism is both a religion and an ethnicity. For the most part the two sets coincide.""

NO! IT IS NOT!

The religion is Judaism.

The ethnicity, tragically, is Semite. I say tragically because it is the same ethnicity as the people they they are oppressing, and trying to destroy.

There is a crying need to expose this nonsensical insistance that a religion is the same thing as ethnicity, and the same thing as nationality.

It simply is not true.

There are Jews of every nationality on this planet, and the vast majority of the world's Jews have never even visited Israel.

Two thousand years ago, Palestine was a country of Jews and Arabs living together in harmony, who were being oppressed by Rome. Those Jews and Arabs were all Palestinians.

Today we have both Jews and Arabs living (rather more uneasily) side by side in Israel. Those Jews and Arabs are Israelis.

Then and now, the country has both Jewish and Muslim, as well as some Christians, but it is not a Jewish, nor a muslim, nor yet a Christian state.

By its actions, it is apparently a fascist state, wishing to expand into ever larger areas currently outside its legal borders. It does not care about world opinion, and is inhumane in the extreme, in its dealings with weaker opponents.

Does this ring any bells for those who can remember 60+ years ago?

Don T.


09 Jun 10 - 06:14 AM (#2923734)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""It is wrong to hate Jews because of what the Israeli government is doing. But it's also hard to say "Uncle Bob is really a nice guy" when everyone can see he's kicking the dog.""

In case it has escaped your attention Mousethief, most of us here are trying our best to lay the blame where it belongs, on the Israeli government, not on the jewish population of Israel.

It is you who constantly states that the two are in fact one unit, and thereby lays blame on innocent Jews.

Don T.


09 Jun 10 - 06:25 AM (#2923743)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""Jim Carroll, I'm not ashamed of myself for contrasting a view of the Israeli/Palestinian tragedy that considers only one side and doesn't value at all the right to exist of the other side.""

Roberto, you are seriously out of order.

Nobody here has ever (to my knowledge) denied the right of Israel to exist.

What we are opposed to is its expansion into areas set aside for Palestinians, its colonisation of the more fertile regions of these areas, its brutal suppression of any resistance to the above, and its apparent intention of starving the inhabitants of Gaza so that they will leave, or die.

I do not think that our objections are unreasonable, or anti-Semitic.

What do you think?

Don T.


09 Jun 10 - 06:32 AM (#2923748)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

EmmaB, Why not just provide a link to the articles, and state your point, rather than cutting and pasting them. It just takes up space,makes it a difficult read and takes away from your point rather than adding to it. Long posts tend to get ignored, or the point is lost in the fog:)...IMO.


09 Jun 10 - 06:42 AM (#2923751)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

Those who deny anti-semitism may wish to read and reflect upon the following.


Irwin Cotler: The new anti-Semitism
Posted: February 17, 2009, 9:00 AM by Kelly McParland

Reflecting on the contemporary surge in anti-Semitism, Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel has stated, "I have not felt the way I feel now since 1945. I feel there are reasons for us to be concerned, even afraid ... Now is the time to mobilize the efforts of all of humanity." This sentiment is what brings together parliamentarians from around the world, for the first conference of the International Parliamentary Coalition to Combat Anti-Semitism.

What we are witnessing today is a new sophisticated, virulent and even lethal anti-Semitism, reminiscent of the atmospherics of the 1930s, and without parallel since the end of the Second World War. This new anti-Jewishness found early juridical expression in the United Nations' "Zionism is Racism" resolution, but has gone beyond that. Traditional anti-Semitism is the discrimination against, denial of or assault upon the rights of Jews to live as equal members of whatever host society they inhabit. The new anti-Semitism involves discrimination against the right of the Jewish people to live as an equal member of the family of nations -- the denial of, and assault upon, the Jewish people's right even to live -- with Israel as the "collective Jew among the nations."

Observing the complex intersections between the old and new anti-Semitism, Per Ahlmark, Deputy Prime Minister of Sweden, pithily remarked that the new anti-Semitism is marked by attacks on the "collective Jews -- the State of Israel," which then "start a chain reaction of assaults on individual Jews and Jewish institutions." In and around my home city of Montreal, I have witnessed chilling examples of these phenomena -- from the firebombing of my own high school, to the physical assault of Jews in the Laurentians, to the vociferous chants against Israel during recent Gaza hostilities.

Let me be clear: I have never argued that Israel should be immune from criticism. But the protesters at purported anti-Israel rallies who cry "Jews are our dogs" are of common ilk with traditional anti-Semites. The whole underscores Ahlmark's conclusion: "In the past, the most dangerous anti-Semites were those who wanted to make the world Judenrein, 'free of Jews.' Today, the most dangerous anti-Semites might be those who want to make the world Judenstaatrein, 'free of a Jewish state.'"

The indices of this new anti-Semitism are different from those of the old. Today it may be uncommon for a Jew to be refused service in a restaurant. But now Israel remains the standing object of genocidal threat from Iran and its terrorist proxies Hezbollah and Hamas; the Jewish state is singled out in the international arena while the major human rights violators of our time enjoy exculpatory immunity; the legitimacy of Israel is discriminatorily scrutinized to the extent that, for the purpose of country groupings at the United Nations, it is considered not even to "exist" in Asia; and less sophisticated voices spread rumors of Israelis injecting Palestinians with the AIDS virus. Jews may no longer be denied equal housing, but they are now being denied an equal homeland.

As New York Times commentator Thomas Friedman put it: "Criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic, and saying so is vile. But singling out Israel for opprobrium and international sanctions, out of all proportion to any other party in the Middle East is anti-Semitic, and not saying so is dishonest."

It is this escalation of anti-Semitism that necessitates the establishment of an International Parliamentary Coalition to confront this oldest and most enduring of hatreds. Silence is not an option. The time has come to act. For as history has taught us only too well: While it may begin with Jews, it does not end with Jews. Anti-Semitism is the canary in the mine shaft of evil, and it threatens us all.

National Post

Irwin Cotler is the MP for Mount Royal and former minister of justice and attorney-general of Canada. He is a professor of law (on leave) from McGill University who has written extensively on matters of hate, racism and human rights. He is a co-founder of the International Parliamentary Coalition to Combat Anti-Semitism with U. K. MP John Mann.

Read more: http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/02/17/irwin-cotler-the-new-anti-semitism.aspx#ixzz0qLpR7qJH


09 Jun 10 - 06:50 AM (#2923753)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"I find it easier to believe that some on board, willing to die as martyrs fighting Israel, flew at the soldiers and began clubbing them as can clearly be seen in video.

Abducted Israeli soldiers are invariably murdered and that would influence what happened next. "

On what basis do you find that easier to believe?

If it is that abducted soldiers invariably get murdered then you have no premiss, as in this case the abducted soldiers were not murdered, but instead, once they were disarmed, received treatment.

You also asked how we know that Israel is witholding video evidence.

We know because numerous reputable reporters on board have said that their video and photographic evidence was stolen.

The evidence on the one hand that there was a deliberate attempt to misinform, and on the other hand that evidence has been hidden, all adds up to an overwhelming likelihood that the Israeli Govt is covering up and that their version of events is unreliable.

Now apart from your feeling of what you find easy or hard to believe, what evidence have you that the passengers on board are not telling the truth?


09 Jun 10 - 06:53 AM (#2923757)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

Ed, I have come to the conclusion from the comments posted by some people that they don't actually bother to look up the actual links therefore a summary of some of the information may give an impression of the contents and the reference will enable them to check out the original

The extract that I chose from the advice by the Israeli Law firm specifically addressed your challenge that

"Only Jews can own land in Israel (Goyim can [i]lease[/i] land from the government for up to 49 years)".

was "not a fact...but propaganda often repeated in the past."


Sometimes several short extracts from longer articles serve to illustrate a particular issue which the links alone would not do or a particular point is contained in a much longer article that may be irrelevant to the specific discussion .
I am by no means the only poster who uses this form and rarely, unlike some others, post whole newspaper articles.

Joe Offer is the arbitrator of 'style' - but I take your point completely about lengthy posts and have strived to contain posts to one screen where ever possible in the past
As people in this thread have pointed out however the issues are complex.

now back to topic.......


09 Jun 10 - 06:58 AM (#2923762)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

Keith I am more likely to subscribe to the theory of 'major military cock-up' these are by no means unknown in history

Neither is the tendency to present such a cock-up resulting in an unacceptable loss of life as something different in order to 'save face' a prime example of which was disastrous charge of British cavalry led by Lord Cardigan against Russian forces during the Battle of Balaclava in the Crimean War immortalized by Alfred, Lord Tennyson, whose lines have made the charge a symbol of courageous warfare

Writing in Haaretz Reuven Pedatzur reports

"Perhaps the commanders of the Israel Navy and policymakers should have read history books before sending special forces to raid boats carrying civilians."
"The operational details of Israel's takeover of the flotilla of boats headed to Gaza won't be clear for many days, if ever. But there's no need to wait for a blow-by-blow account to point out that from the military point of view, it is hard to understand how an action that the Israel Navy spent so long planning ended up in so severe a debacle."

"And that's without even addressing the questions that arise regarding how wise it was to carry out a military action against civilian craft in international waters."

"The decision to act at night is also problematic. Presumably, some of the commotion and the hysteria on the ship was a result of the fact that neither the soldiers nor the civilians could see clearly what was going on. This is a sure recipe for escalation on the part of people who have to guess without being able to see who is approaching them and what they are doing."

From the same newspaper

Fiasco on the high seas by By Ari Shavit

"Benjamin Netanyahu, Ehud Barak and Moshe Ya'alon are supposed to know history. They are supposed to know there was no greater mistake than that of the British with regard to the illegal immigrant ship Exodus in the summer of 1947. The brutality employed by the British Mandate against a ferry loaded with Jewish refugees turned the regime into an object of revile.
It lost what is now called international legitimacy

The Turkish ship Mavi Marmara was no Exodus.

But a series of baseless decisions on the part of the prime minister and the ministers of defense and of strategic affairs turned the Marmara into a Palestinian Exodus. With a single foolish move, the Israeli cabinet cast the Muslim Brotherhood in the role of the victim and the Israel Navy as the villain and simultaneously opened European, Turkish, Arab, Palestinian and internal Israeli fronts.
In so doing, Israel is serving Hamas' interests better than Hamas itself has ever done.

Perhaps the most troubling question in the wake of this fiasco on the high sea is this: Who is navigating our ship of state, and toward what catastrophe are the captains of this ship of fools steering us? "


Given the reaction in Israel - not to mention internationally - it is not difficult to see how a government prepared to sanction the forging of British Australian and Irish passports to enable a state sponsored assassination had no compunction other than to put the best possible spin on this attack in international waters.


09 Jun 10 - 07:03 AM (#2923767)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Lox, I find that scenario easier to beieve than the alternative, i.e.
1 Israelis thought it a good idea to make this the first and only antiblockade ship they have ever fired on.
2 Firing having started, commandos descended into the fight one at a time without weapons at the ready.

The previous treatment of Israeli prisoners would influence how their friends and comrades reacted to this abduction.


09 Jun 10 - 07:04 AM (#2923769)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

You know edT,

In the UK recently we have seen the formaton of a new group of right wing nationalists called the English Defence Leaugue.

They hold rallies outside mosques and exist to drive Moslems out of Britain.

They are comosed of football thugs and other BNP old guard.

I suggest you look at some of the Youtube videos of them as they chant their slogans of hate.

You may be surprised to see a few Israeli flags being waved.

There is conflict brewing at a very low level in the UK between Jews and Moslems.

Firstly it is important to note that there is NO evidence of a large scale cultural antisemitism as described in your article.

But secondly, what tension that does exist is as much the product of Islamophobia as it is a product of Anti-semitism.

In addition, there have not been similar rallies by moslems outside synagogues.

Islamophobia is also heavily promoted by newspapers like the sun, the mail and the express, and moslems are an at risk section of society in the UK as a result of this, much more so than British Jews.


Gerald Kaufman, Friend of Golda Meyer and Jewish Member of the UK Parliament has criticized Israel for hiding behind the holocaust and accusations of anti-semitism in an attempt to justify what he describes as the murder of palestinians.


I personally, coming from an Irish perspective, know that it is essential to recognize political problems as just that political problems, and not religious or cultural ones.

Political problems need political solutions.

Blaming the whole world for being Jew haters in response to accusations of Human rights abuses and racism is not an effective political solution.


09 Jun 10 - 07:06 AM (#2923770)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

Was the blockade legal: I suspect so, as they have been impsed by states before and international law seems fuzzy in this area.

Was the blockade wise to impose:No

Was the blockade excessive (though to me it is more like a quarintine): Most certainly

Is there a case to be made that it breaks humaritarian laws: I feel there is a good one, and would expect the UN to be more agressive in dealing with it.

Has the blockade helped Israel? Maybe it halted an escallation of the Hamas rocket fire, but in the long run it can only hurt Israel.

Has the Blockade helped the long term Hamas cause: Yes

Has the Blockade hurt the peace process. I see that the jury is out on this one. It did little to build trust and has focused opinion against Israel (not for those aready clearly opposed to Israel).It may increase international pressure on Israel to work towards peace. But, peace requires trust and willing partners...not just international pressure.

Would international santions force Israel into a peace process and to make concessions? I feel this would be no more effective in changing Israel's position than changing the position of Hamas through a blockade. So, my answer is no.

Do Hamas and Israel care about the impact of the blockade on civilians. The site below seems to state that concern for civilians is often secondary to broader objectives of governments involved. However, I would like to believe people care about people...beyond those broader national/government/military strategic issues or goals. But, I have been often dissapointed by governments before. While I have been dissapointed in the past, I hold onto a faith in humanity and people care about people...regardless of their ethnic background and history, religeon, or natioinality.

Here is a perspective on blockades:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1995/TC.htm


09 Jun 10 - 07:09 AM (#2923773)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Emma, the cock up I find most likely was the soldiers being left vulnerable and exposed. The fight was not anticipated and perhaps should have been. The day before Hamas TV showed an interviewee who said that some on board wanted martyrdom more than they wanted to get to Gaza.

You are suggesting that there was an attack, a cock up, but then the soldiers would not have landed one at a time without weapons at the ready.
Hard to believe I think.


09 Jun 10 - 07:11 AM (#2923774)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

"While I have been dissapointed in the past, I hold onto a faith in humanity and people care about people...regardless of their ethnic background and history, religeon, or natioinality."

Right on Ed - hold onto that - it maybe all we have left.


09 Jun 10 - 07:11 AM (#2923775)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Hamas TV clip referred to above.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HThF8ft5Cls


09 Jun 10 - 07:17 AM (#2923779)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

DonT ".....its apparent intention of starving the inhabitants of Gaza so that they will leave, or die."


"We mustn't tire of reminding others: the blockade concerns only arms and the material needed to manufacture them. It does not prevent the daily arrival, via Israel, of between 100 and 120 trucks laden with foodstuffs, medical supplies and humanitarian goods of every kind. Humanity is not "in danger" in Gaza, and it is a lie to state that people are "dying of hunger" in the streets of Gaza City."

Bernard-Henri Lévy
Haaretz, Wed.June 9, 2010


09 Jun 10 - 07:22 AM (#2923780)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"Firing having started, commandos descended into the fight one at a time without weapons at the ready."

1. How do you know the weapons weren't at the ready?

2. Testimony from the passengers states that live ammo was fired from above and from the boats before the troops landed. This testimony is corroborated by the commentary in the live feed which states that some of the passengers were wounded before any troops landed.

It is clear that the troops did not expect the resistance they encountered, but this says nothing about whether or not they were the aggressors, it just shows that they underestimated the determination of the people on board.

It is really important to ask who is trying to cover the evidence up and who is trying to make it public.

The question of who is telling the truth is best answered by that factor alone.

Israel has engaged in a clear policy of falsified evidence, secrecy, accusations of terrorist links and accusations of global anti semitism.

Nowhere do I see them saying "here is the evidence, we welcome an independent enquiry"

There is not much that is believable about the official Israeli positon.


09 Jun 10 - 07:22 AM (#2923781)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

Lox stated:

"Firstly it is important to note that there is NO evidence of a large scale cultural antisemitism as described in your article".

I am not sure where your last comments to me come from?

Possibly there was a suggestion of something like that included somewhare in an article I linked to (I did not notice it, or I would have stated that this is not my position) to make another point. To be clear, that was not a position I hold.

BuAlso, it was not "my article" as you state. In fact, I have not given a position on "a large scale cultural antisemitism" To tell you the truth, I have not even thought about this, done any research, nor have a current position on that. Just because some posts an article for consideration, it does not mean all contents on the site is their position, nor the article "their article".

I do not believe I have accused anyone here of anti sematism. I do not equate being anti Israeli or having a position (or being associated with like minded groups) on the Palestine-Israel issue with antisemitism... However, I recognise some do suggust such a connection.I have mostly stayed clear of that one.


09 Jun 10 - 07:35 AM (#2923788)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

How do you know the weapons weren't at the ready?

Caorol's video shows soldiers descending.
The firing does not start until much later.
I find it hard to believe that IDF commandos would allow themselves to be clubbed into submission without firing a shot if they had weapons to hand.

Your uncritical acceptance of one side of the story is foolish.


09 Jun 10 - 07:36 AM (#2923790)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Ed T,

I'm sorry, I made a mistake.

In fact I wasn't referring to any post of yours at all.

I was referring to the article posted in the following post from Bobad.

"From: bobad - PM
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:42 AM"


I would add thought, that even if you had posted the article, in criticizing it or questioning the motives of the authour, I would in no way wish to suggest that I was making the same criticism or asking the same questions of the poster.

My response would be an attempt to scrutinize and debate the content of the article.


Hence, in responding to Bobas article I do not attribute the views of its authour to him, but nonetheless feel it is deserving of the response I have given.


09 Jun 10 - 07:45 AM (#2923797)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"Your uncritical acceptance of one side of the story is foolish."

Uncritical?

I have responded to the available evidence.

We have yet to see grounds upon which to base doubts on the testimony of the passengers of the ship.

We have on the other hand seen numerous and varied grounds to doubt the testimony of the IDF and te Israeli Govt.


09 Jun 10 - 07:50 AM (#2923800)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Carol's video again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAuz6HoqV4g

The soldiers descend at 2 minutes 3seconds.
The narrator says nothing of fire from above, only of some kind of cannisters fired from boats which seem not to cause any alarm.
There is talk of the two captured soldiers, and then first shot are clearly heard and reacted to at 4 minutes 44seconds.


09 Jun 10 - 07:57 AM (#2923807)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Do watch it again.
The "attack" on the ship is by just two soldiers who do not fire a shot.
Help does not arrive for about 2minutes.


09 Jun 10 - 08:17 AM (#2923820)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

The French Subtitles at the very start read as follows:

"Il y'a actuellement des blesses des deux cotes du navire"

Which means "There are actually injured [people] on both sides of the ship."

That is before Anything at all happpens in the video.


09 Jun 10 - 08:27 AM (#2923825)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Then the next frame says,

"On deplore plusieur blesse, Oui il y a plusieurs blesse"

to translate -

"On deplore plusieur blesse"

Means "one deplores more injured [as if to say lets hope there are no more injured]"

"Oui il y a plusieurs blesse"

Meaning "Yes there are more injured"


The commentary then goes on about the ship being under seige and being in international waters.

All this before the English speaking reporter comes online and all long before the troops abseil down.


09 Jun 10 - 08:29 AM (#2923829)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Lox. Pity we are not allowed to see them.
Were their "injuries" caused by the "some kind of cannisters"???
Why is there no obvious concern as when the shooting starts?
The cannisters obviously do not explode.
What could they be?
I suggested earlier that the boats were trying to get lines on board.
That would not have been necessary had the ship complied with the requests.
I suppose that could cause a bruise or a graze if someone got in the way.

The video shows, despite the hysterical narration, that the ship was not attacked at all. Two soldiers descended to the deck and were brutally set upon.
The hard evidence is Carol's video and those we have all seen of people landing blow after blow with metal bars.


09 Jun 10 - 08:36 AM (#2923835)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

It was claimed that the helicopter fired on the ship before the landings, and you repeated it just now Lox.
Carol's video shows that to have been a lie.


09 Jun 10 - 08:39 AM (#2923837)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"The hard evidence is Carol's video and those we have all seen of people landing blow after blow with metal bars."

That is only Some of the hard evidence Keith.

You need to consider all of it together.

The murderous passengers didn't murder anyone.

They could have very easily.

They claim they were trying to disarm the soldiers.

This claim bears scrutiny.


There is no evidence upon which to base doubts about their testimony.

Til there is, it stands up as evidence.


09 Jun 10 - 08:45 AM (#2923839)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"Carol's video shows that to have been a lie."

No it doesn't.


The word "Deplore" in French is not a judgemental word.

It alsio means to "Bewail" and "Bemoan".

Its use is more sympathetic than critical.

The reporters are effectivley grieving that passengers have been injured.

This is not 100% proof thet live rounds were fired before the troops landed, but it does corroborate the eye witness testimonies of passengers who claim that they were shot from above before troops landed and who say that they saw people being shot before troops landed.


The live commentary of the reporters in the live feed is evidence that accusations of the Israelis firing before they landed are true and accurate.


09 Jun 10 - 08:48 AM (#2923842)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"Carol's video shows that to have been a lie."

Come on then Keith, explain how it shows that?


09 Jun 10 - 08:51 AM (#2923843)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

It is hard evidence.
There is no mistaking the point on the video when the first shots are fired.
They can clearly be heard, and the people react and disperse.
The narrator only speaks of "some kind of cannisters" from the boats.
He would hardly overlook being shot at!
The witnesses who say that live rounds were fired before the landing are proven liars.
And you are shown to be naive and credulous.


09 Jun 10 - 08:52 AM (#2923844)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"Carol's video shows that to have been a lie."

In order to show this it would have to prove beyond doubt that no bullets were fired.

In fact it does no such thing.

In fact, it corroborates eye witness testimony.

Which makes your comment plain wrong.

Nice try but no cigar.


09 Jun 10 - 08:53 AM (#2923846)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"The witnesses who say that live rounds were fired before the landing are proven liars."

Which ones?

And by whom?

Link please ...


09 Jun 10 - 08:56 AM (#2923848)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"There is no mistaking the point on the video when the first shots are fired.
They can clearly be heard, and the people react and disperse."

The ones on the deck can be heard.

What about shots from a noisy helicopter - could they be heard Keith?


I can't see your trousers - does it follow that I have proved you not to be wearing any?


No - but that is the principle of your nonsense argument.


09 Jun 10 - 09:07 AM (#2923852)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

The testimony of 'staff Sergeant S,' who is being considered for a medal, is contrary to initial Israeli Army reports

He has stated the shooting had started within minutes as he and his comrades were set upon by a "mob of mercenaries". and taking charge, he formed his men in a perimeter around the wounded, pulled his 9mm Glock pistol and opened fire on passengers he accused of shooting at the boarding party with guns taken off the first soldiers, who had been overwhelmed as they landed one by one.
"These were without a doubt terrorists. I could see the murderous rage in their eyes and that they were coming to kill us."

Now none of this holds up with 'official' reports, the testimony of the passengers or even the video Keith linked to which is quite explicit (in French) of the events unfolding

Amongst the inescapable anomalies is the instance by the Israeli government that "The soldiers reported that the activists had fired on them during the confrontation and that at least two commandos suffered gunshot wounds.
After the incident, 9mm bullet casings were found - a kind NOT used by the naval commandos."

WHAT not even Staff Sergeant S's Glock?

The not particularly left wing or pro Palestinian Times points out in its reporting that

"Israeli officials have accused the Turks who attacked them of links to terrorist groups, although it was unclear why, in that case, the soldiers of Flotilla 13, the elite Navy Seals unit involved in the operation, were briefed only to expect peaceful resistance.
The question also remained as to why the passengers, if they were indeed terrorists, did not use deadlier weapons against the approaching naval launches and helicopters hovering overhead.

Alexandra Lort-Phillips, 37, an activist from Hackney, was on the Mavi Marmara when it was stormed and described seeing an Israeli soldier taken down into the stairwell below the deck where the soldiers landed

"I saw a gun being taken. His gunbelt was removed and someone, I don't know who, ran past me with the weapon and disappeared. They could have shot him but didn't."

Report from Haaretz

"The Israeli Navy says it went over "incidents and responses" in preparation; these included opening fire at charging activists with melee weapons. In case of a threat to their lives, the commandos were ordered to shoot to kill even as they were on their way onto the deck.
Another officer said that "we became a little spoiled, as a society, expecting perfect performances."

According to a senior officer…..

"NO REAL PEACE ACTIVIST WAS INJURED. NO SOLDIER WAS KILLED, EVEN THOUGH IT CAME PRETTY CLOSE. IN THE END THE SHIPS ARE DOCKED AT ASHDOD. IT WAS VERY COMPLICATED AND THE RESULT IS NEAR PERFECT."


09 Jun 10 - 09:10 AM (#2923855)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Lox, they would have heard shots from the boats and seen them fired.
Do you accept that was a lie?

If people on the ship were being hit by live rounds it is very hard to believe that the narrator and those around him were oblivious. They were aware of "some kind of cannisters" hitting the ship but not bullets???

It is impossible to believe that the commandos would descend without weapons to hand if they had already fired on the ship.

You have seen the video evidence but close your mind to its story.
Two legs good, four legs bad.
No other evidence accepted.


09 Jun 10 - 09:11 AM (#2923856)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll

"We mustn't tire of reminding others: the blockade concerns only arms and the material needed to manufacture them."
THIS IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE - I've yet to hear of arms made of cement, yet this formed a large part of the cargo and is desperately needed to rebuild the schools and hospitals damaged and destroyed by the Israelis during their last incursion into Gaza This is included on their list of banned marterials.
Jim Carroll


09 Jun 10 - 09:15 AM (#2923857)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Emma, that account actually is consistent with the video.

The commentary does not speak of any shots before the landings, only of cannisters and unspecified injuries.


09 Jun 10 - 09:29 AM (#2923863)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"Lox, they would have heard shots from the boats and seen them fired.
Do you accept that was a lie?"

"it is very hard to believe that the narrator and those around him were oblivious"

Keith.

First they commented that there were ALREADY numerous injured passengers on both sides of the boat.

Then they commented that this number was increasing.

The deplored, bewailed and bemoaned this tragedy and hoped there would not be more injured, but were shocked to report that the numbers were increasing.

Then AFTER that they commented that canisters were being dropped onto the boat.

This is hardly evidence that they were oblivious to anything.

They weren't oblivious to it, they were REPORTING IT.

As for the other alleged lie,

I don't think we can say that the video proves there were no shots from the boats.

Keith - ever been on the deck of a ship going at full speed? In this case with two noisy helicopters 20 or 30 metres overhead, numerous powerboats with large engines on all sides, and the sea wind whippping any sound from those boats back and away from the ship, and the noise of the Mavi Marmaras engines and the melee of scared passengers and reporters on board, we cannot say that not hearing such shots is evidence that they didn't happen.

The reporters are shouting to be heard on microphones they are holding next to their faces.

If the video doesn't prove that no shots were fired from the boats, then it doesn't prove that testimony to be aa lie either.


Sorry, but there is no evidence of lies being told about shooting yet.

There is evidence to corroborate the passengers testimony though.



So Two legs, four legs, whatever thats all about, is of no interest to me.

Your attempt to discredit the passengers testimony has utterly failed.


09 Jun 10 - 09:44 AM (#2923876)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Firstly, I was wrong to say only two commandos descended.
I was wathching the timer and missed the others.

The microphone used for the commentary was very low sensitivity.
It does not pick up voices a few feet away. You barely hear the helicopters.
The gunfire is as far away as the helicopter but is clearly heard.

The narrator speaks of unspecified, out of sight injuries, never of incoming fire. Just the cannisters.


09 Jun 10 - 09:52 AM (#2923878)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

DonT, referring to Israel: "An oasis of fascism, racism, and discriminatory constraint, would probably be a more apposite description."

My goodness, what an absolutely horrible place that must be. Why in the world would 77% of it's Arab citizens say they would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world. Sure makes one wonder, doesn't it?


09 Jun 10 - 09:54 AM (#2923880)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

I meant 4 legs good. Animal Farm.
Never mind.

You will never accept it Lox, but to anyone looking at it rationally, the video makes liars of those who say there was shooting before the landing.

Remember too that Yemeni professor who had been told what was going to happen. Spookily prescient?
I find it easier to believe the flotilla commander did tell him that martyrdom was the main objective.

I think that we may as well give up now, unless more evidence emerges.


09 Jun 10 - 09:54 AM (#2923881)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger

What is being done here is speculation. The Israel Commandos systematically destroyed all evidence. This was a criminal act by its action. It was a "dead man tells no tales" scenario.
The Mark Regev PR blitz is not to be trusted.

There is no real argument, here. A vessel bound for Gaza to break the blockade offering assistance for the Gazan people was attacked by armed military commandos with the purpose of throwing fear into the unarmed and peaceful resistance.

If you don't get that, then there is no discussion that will make sense here.


09 Jun 10 - 09:57 AM (#2923882)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Lucky we have that video Stringsinger.
It shows no firing untill nearly 3 minutes after the soldiers landed, were themselves attacked and two abducted.


09 Jun 10 - 09:58 AM (#2923883)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"The gunfire is as far away as the helicopter but is clearly heard."

Not true - it is on the deck just behind the reporters. Before the troops abseiled closer to the reporters they were further away on the helicopters.


"The narrator speaks of unspecified, out of sight injuries, never of incoming fire. Just the cannisters."


True. His comments however are still consstent with the testimony of eyewitnesses on board.

Hence they serve to corroborate the passengers version of events.


09 Jun 10 - 10:02 AM (#2923887)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"two abducted."

Nope - sorry but that is your misleading spin.

They were brought to safety below decks and their injuries were treated.

There is photographic evidence of this.


09 Jun 10 - 11:06 AM (#2923926)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

That is spin!
If they were asked, "would you like us to take you below, or would you prefer to stay here" what do you HONESTLY believe they would reply?

If they did not want to go it was abduction.

The "witnesses" spoke of being fired on from boats and helicopter before the landings.
The narrator does not mention this.
I can not believe that he would be either unaware, or fail to mention incoming fire.
When the firing does start, they react, switch off the lights and disperse.
It is obvious if you consider the evidence rationally that no shots were fired until nearly 3 minutes after the landings.
They lied.
Watch Carol's video.
They intended what happened.
Watch my Hamas TV video where it is laid out the previous day.

(Did not the firing come from the landing site, about 30 feet below helicopter and about 30 yards from camera/microphone ?)


09 Jun 10 - 11:20 AM (#2923934)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

Mouse crook,

"Only Jews can own land in Israel"

Not true.


"Only Jews are registered and called up in the selective service. "

ONLY Jews are REQUIRED to serve in the military- Isralei Arabs MAY if they choose, but are NOT require.


"Jews from anywhere in the world are given a free immigration pass, but no other people group has that privilege "

Since Israel was established to be the Jewish Homeland, the requirement that ALL JEWS be able to move there seems to make sense.




BTW, why is it that so many here insist that Palestinians whose families left Israel in 1948 have the right to go back, but Jews who were drven out at various times ( from Babylonian times to the present) have no such rights?


What is the time limit that is being proposed- and will you hold the 640,000 Palestinian refugees to the same standards as you hold the 820,000 Jewish ones driven from Arab countries?

How long will someone have to have lived in a place before they can claim it, and how long must they be gone before they lose the right to go back?

And about those Christian Palestinians who fled the Moslims in 1948- do THEY get THEIR land back? If so, the town of Ramallah just became A CHRISTIAN TOWN, and the present inhabitants better get out.


09 Jun 10 - 11:41 AM (#2923942)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

Israel was established to be the Jewish Homeland

No, no, it's not a Jewish homeland. Listen to Ed T. He knows everything. It's not a Jewish state, it isn't, it isn't, it isn't.

Whew. Okay, I'm better now.

Ed, I wasn't equating Israel with Judaism. It's plain that there are Jews who are not Israeli citizens (although they could become so at the drop of a hat just by moving there), and it's plain there are Israeli citizens who are not Jews. So let's get that attempted slander out of the way first. I was not saying that Israel=Judaism. Nice try though. 9 out of 10 for effort, although 0 out of 10 for accuracy.

But Israel is a Jewish state. It was created FOR Jews (as Rig was so kind as to point out), and is run BY Jews. Why has Israel not annexed the occupied territories, as they had every right to do at the end of the 1967 war, if it was not because that would topple the Jewish majority in Israel? They are little by little de facto annexing the West Bank, but of course only bits that are exclusively inhabited by Jewish settlers. If the current rate of nibbling continues, though, they will soon have it all and the Palestinians will be pushed out of the Territory entirely. But maybe that's a subject for another thread.

As for ethnicity haven't you been following the conversation about DNA markers?

Judaism is not a "nation" -- Israel is a nation, and you've already chided me for equating it with Judaism. You want to eat your cake and have it, here.

Rig, why aren't Christians and Muslims drafted into the Israeli army, if Israel is a secular state where all men are equal? Answer: it's not a secular state where all men are equal. Christians and Muslims are second-class citizens. This is shown just by the fact they are not included in the "universal" draft. Sure, they can volunteer. But if Israel is really a "religion-blind" state, as Ed T assures me it is, then they wouldn't have to. They'd be inducted like their Jewish neighbours are. Conclusion: Israel is not a "religion-blind" state. Jews have special privilege.

I had never heard that the JNF doesn't sell but only rent land, and I stand corrected on that point. Also on the 6.5% of land allowed to be owned privately. Of course having a land trust called the Jewish National Fund is something of a giveaway -- this really isn't the secular state Ed wants to portray it as. You might as well argue that Turkey is really a secular state, kof kof.

Does this make me an anti-semite, because I am willing to face the truth that the state of Israel discriminates against its non-Jewish minority, and was founded as a homeland for the Jews? Whatever. Remember Humpty Dumpty paid words extra when he abused them.


09 Jun 10 - 12:26 PM (#2923963)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

"It shows no firing untill nearly 3 minutes after the soldiers landed, were themselves attacked and two abducted."

Keith - sigh, the only people who were armed were the soldiers

All the bodies of the passengers who were killed show a number of very close range bullet wounds

No shots were fired at the descending soldiers as the passengers did not have guns

The descending soldiers, according to one report I read, were unable to fire as they abseiled down as they were wearing protective gloves which made this impossible - this seems very likely
Nevertheless they were masked and armed to the teeth at 4 am or so in the morning - it is not surprising that they may have been assumed to have lethal intent bur, as is clearly demonstrated, despite having the opportunity to kill them when the first commandos were overcome by force of numbers - none were.


The official Israeli story as of June 3, 2010 argues that three soldiers were captured when they were unconscious. Of course such elite commandos couldn't be be taken captive by civilians (unless they are spun as armed terrorists 'with murder in their eyes' of course)

However Haaretz reports that three commandos "were nearly taken hostage".

The report continues Haaretz that the commandos then regained consciousness and "managed to rejoin their comrades."

ok so - "hard-core" Islamic militants captured commandos only because they were unconscious, but then they just managed to wake up and return to their heavily armed squad - so 'abducted not abducted?


The Israeli Ambassador Michael Oren has publicly called the humanitarian activists "terrorists – hired killers who came to murder soldiers, not to assist the residents of the Gaza Strip."

Let us be perfectly clear on this issue: If the goal of the activists was to "murder soldiers", they would be murdered, because the activists had at least 10 minutes (by the IDF's recollection of events, which should be treated with caution) in which they could have killed the captive soldiers with or without weapons.

That they didn't, despite the opportunity, speaks volumes about their true intentions.

Abbas Al Lawati who graduated from Concordia University's
political science department was working as a reporter for the Gulf News newspaper, based in the United Arab Emirates on board

Here is his report as he watched and filmed one of the detained soldiers being dragged below deck it does not ignore or gloss over the anger and fear of the attack on both sides


"I saw angry activists drag one of the Israeli soldiers down the stairs and punch him, I lost my journalistic objectivity and found myself urging the activist to stop hitting the soldier.

Seeing the anger in the activist's eyes, I thought that he would kill him. I had images of the wars that Israel has waged over its captive soldiers, and the number of people that have died as a result of them.
My thought was that if an Israeli soldier was to die on that ship, the entire flotilla would be bombed until it sank.

That was, of course, before I saw the bloodshed. The activists' anger was suddenly put in context when I saw a number of people carrying a dying man down the stairs.
His face was unrecognisable, covered in blood. He was apparently one of the first to go down, after an Israeli gun targeted the centre of his forehead from a helicopter, spilling his brains into the hands of another activist who was trying to look after him.

I took a few deep breaths and went back to get some footage on my tiny HD camera. Still indoors, I remained by the staircase where, by now, the organisers of the flotilla had pushed aside activists and forbade them to hurt the soldiers.

I took a few steps down to film the other captive soldier, struggling to keep my balance with so much blood under my feet. He stood in a corner being attended by two medics onboard, in shock, crying.

It was surreal. I knew that that soldier could destroy the entire flotilla, and thought I would get some close up footage of him. I took my camera as close as possible to his face and asked his name twice. He was too traumatised to answer. I could see fear of death in his eyes. He was petrified. Then I heard women screaming. "They are coming!"

This shocking but authentic sounding version of events could be proven or disproved if Israel were to release Al Lawati's footage,


09 Jun 10 - 01:10 PM (#2923995)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

From Anna Baltzer, who is one of my heroes...

http://annainpalestine.blogspot.com/


09 Jun 10 - 01:15 PM (#2924002)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

It is because it was a song from the Civil Rights Movement that I can't accept it to be bent to a sectarian support to a part that doesn't recognize at all civil rights, not even the idea of them, as Hamas regime. You are carrying the torch down a ditch. I'm from Italy.

On the contrary, the song is not being sung for Hamas. It is being sung for the people of Palestine. Don't forget, Israel would not exist today were it not for its own use of terrorism. And many of those terrorists still serve in Israel's government today. So to say we must punish the people of Gaza because of Hamas, or that we can't negotiate with Hamas because it has committed acts of terrorism is really the height of hypocrisy.

We Shall Overcome is a perfect song for this movement, although the Palestinians have some songs that are even better.


09 Jun 10 - 01:18 PM (#2924004)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Keith, you said this:

A blockade is a method of warfare between belligerent states.

Ok. So please tell me who the belligerent states are in this context.


09 Jun 10 - 01:22 PM (#2924007)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Just because you post alot (the record on this tread speaks for itself), does mot mean you are posting anything new....that hasn't been said alot by your compadres on the web.
This is a very strange thing to say considering that all of the news of recent events in the Mediterranean were new prior to about a week ago. When one posts "news" (which could be defined as "new information"), one is posting something new. If someone posts a link to "news" that has not been posted before, he or she is posting news that no one else has posted before, meaning that has not been posted by his or her compadres. That's how it works with "news". That's why we don't call it "olds".


09 Jun 10 - 01:25 PM (#2924011)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

As I've written previously, the Italian group on the flotilla was no doubt formed by anti-semite. Please, go and visit their site, TerraSantaLibera, HolyLandFree, there is also a section in English.. The demonstrations in Italy, as usual when Israel is involved, have had several anti-semite traits.

Roberto, what evidence do you have that she writes for this site rather than the site finding her work elsewhere and publishing it in their site? What evidence do you have that she is even aware that her work appears in that site?


09 Jun 10 - 01:27 PM (#2924016)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

South African Apartheid is a misleading comparison. I'm not ashamed to criticize them who propose a fairy-tale vision of Hamas democracy, as CarolC does.

Please show me where I have characterized democracy under Hamas in this way. If you can't, then we know that you are lying.


09 Jun 10 - 01:42 PM (#2924031)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

"We mustn't tire of reminding others: the blockade concerns only arms and the material needed to manufacture them. It does not prevent the daily arrival, via Israel, of between 100 and 120 trucks laden with foodstuffs, medical supplies and humanitarian goods of every kind. Humanity is not "in danger" in Gaza, and it is a lie to state that people are "dying of hunger" in the streets of Gaza City."

In light of this, we must conclude that Mr. Levy is lying, because we have seen the list of things that aren't allowed in and they include things like baby formula, antibiotics, incubators, school books, paper and pencils, chickens and other livestock, and other things that are in no way "materials needed to manufacture weapons", but in fact, are materials that are necessary to sustain life and a functioning society.


09 Jun 10 - 01:50 PM (#2924039)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

We know that footage and photographs have been confiscated because two people were able to get some of their material out, one through hiding it in her underwear, and the other was able to restore some of it from a drive that the Israelis thought they had destroyed. In both cases, the material showed that the Israelis were lying.

We know two things: one, that there were several journalists on board the Mavi Marmara, and that they were documenting what was happening on the flotilla. I know this because I have seen a lot of what they were able to send electronically before their signal was cut off. The second thing we know is that almost none of the material that they were not able to send before the signal was cut off has returned home with the people to whom it belongs. We also know that the Israeli government has used some of it in a highly edited form, so that also proves that it exists.

So we know beyond any shadow of a doubt that the government of Israel is withholding information, and that every time any of the information that they are withholding is found and released, it supports the version of events given by the passengers, and it proves that the Israeli government is lying.


09 Jun 10 - 01:54 PM (#2924043)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Joe Offer

Hmmmm. Eight messages in a row from the same person. Is this a discussion, or an obsession?


09 Jun 10 - 01:59 PM (#2924054)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

The video shows, despite the hysterical narration, that the ship was not attacked at all. Two soldiers descended to the deck and were brutally set upon.
The hard evidence is Carol's video and those we have all seen of people landing blow after blow with metal bars.


Keith, it is not accurate to say that the video shows that the ship wasn't attacked. It would be more accurate to say that the video doesn't show any actual attack. We might have had access to the feed that would have showed the firing that occurred prior to the start of the video in question but for two things. One: the Israelis were firing on sleeping passengers, and two, the people who were doing the live feed had only just then been able to reestablish the feed after it was interrupted by the Israelis. Now why, I wonder, might the Israelis not have wanted the live feed to get out during that particular time period. Hmmm... maybe so we would not now have any videographic evidence of the shooting that occurred before the Israelis boarded the ship.


09 Jun 10 - 02:02 PM (#2924058)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

Living rough in Gaza


09 Jun 10 - 02:04 PM (#2924059)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Joe, I was gone for several hours and there are many points that were made in my absence. I could lump all of my responses in the same post, but I don't have time to read all of the posts since my last one at the same time and then try to organize my responses all in one post.

Perhaps you can tell me what the difference is between putting all of my points in one long post, or putting them in separate posts. And perhaps you can tell me what the difference would be if I had the same number of posts but others had posted in between.

Your post looks like a personal attack to me, and an attempt to discredit what I am saying using smear tactics rather than responding to anything I have actually said. Maybe you really are working for the hasbara people as that guest said you were.


09 Jun 10 - 02:09 PM (#2924062)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

By the way, Joe, I notice more than 14 posts from Keith during the time I was not posting. So tell me what would be the difference between Keith posting more than 14 since my last post, but at longer intervals in between, and me posting only 8 with much shorter intervals in between. Wouldn't you say that 14 is more than 8 in the same time period? Are you suggesting that Keith has an even bigger obsession than me, or does your comment only apply to people who see things differently than you?


09 Jun 10 - 02:15 PM (#2924064)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

Joe that was below the belt!

I have acknowledged and accepted the criticism from Ed that long posts are sometimes ineffective or even counter productive and I think it is only fair to support Carol's view that a number of separate points deserve separate posts.

Carol is by no means the only poster who has posted several posts one after the other - another immediately springs to mind!
However I did not see any such observation or accusation of 'obsession' in that instance.


09 Jun 10 - 02:28 PM (#2924068)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

That tactic, along with accusations of anti-Semitism, are what hasbaristas resort to in the absence of having any legitimate arguments.


09 Jun 10 - 02:38 PM (#2924073)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic

Joe was merely making plain what has been obvious in many forums over a long period of time. I used to judge my effectiveness by how many rat-a-tats I could get out of CarolC.


09 Jun 10 - 02:45 PM (#2924076)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Would you apply that same standard to beardedbruce, robomatic? Or does his rapid fire posting not count because you agree with what he is saying?

Like I said... that tactic is used by people who have to rely on smear tactics because they don't have any legitimate arguments.


09 Jun 10 - 02:52 PM (#2924080)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

LOL

I judge the effectiveness of my arguments by the number of personal attacks and smears I get from people like Joe and robomatic in threads like this one.


09 Jun 10 - 02:52 PM (#2924081)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

Since my name came up...

I think CarolC was correct in posting replies to different posts as different entries- and have no problem with multiples from the same person.

In this case, IMHO CarolC is in the right.

(Bookmark this, as it will not be said often by me 8-{E)


09 Jun 10 - 02:54 PM (#2924084)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

"Listen to Ed T. He knows everything"

Thanks for that endorsement, mousethief,finally, I get some recognition around here, though OI am fairly sure all would not agree with your assessment, and go to length to prove you wrong....but, get used to that:)


09 Jun 10 - 03:00 PM (#2924086)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Carol, if the ship had been fired on before the start of the video, why was it not mentioned?
The "cannisters" from the boats were mentioned.
Why did they continue to stand filming under a bright light?
They turned it off when the shooting did start.
You just want to believe that the Israelis instigated the violence.
There is no reson why they should, and it has never happened before.


It has been mentioned. Numerous times. Right here in this thread, even. I have posted testimony from several people who said that sleeping passengers were fired on before any of the Israelis had boarded the ship. Others have said that the ship was fired on but they were not close enough to those who were being fired on to know that they were sleeping at the time.

I also know that there were times when they did film in the dark. One of them is on the video. I also saw them turn out the lights on the live feed I was watching during one of the other times when the signal was not being interrupted. And while the light was off, everyone got very quiet and crouched down low. Keep in mind, Keith, that there were many people, myself included, who were watching these events in real time, except for the times when the Israelis had cut off the signal. I saw things that you have not seen, like a woman shouting to the people on the boats, "Don't shoot! We are unarmed civilians!"

I am going by the evidence of my own eyes and ears. You are only going on the propaganda that has been disseminated by the Israeli government. I would say that means that it is you who are gullible and wanting to believe what you want to believe.


09 Jun 10 - 03:08 PM (#2924093)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

CaroleC (I like the French version) Take a breath....posting too often (in machine gun fashon) robs the brain of oxygen...it can get one light headed....and god knows where that will take the thread:)

People make reference to "Carol's video" Egad, was she there also....If so, I move aside (from knowing everything, about every issue, may I add) to her first hand observations of events that sorry day.

Anyway, here is another site to fuel debate, shoot down and frown upon....should keep muddyfolks busy while I cut my grass....darn stuff grows like weeds lately (come to think, it may be all weeds...I say that with caution, as I do not want to be branded anti-senecio).


09 Jun 10 - 03:11 PM (#2924095)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll

"Hmmmm. Eight messages in a row from the same person. Is this a discussion, or an obsession? "
Please don't go down that road Joe - it's not the first time you've confused compassion with obsession.
Listen to Ed T. He knows everything.
Maybe - but he's not very good at verifying what he says.
Jim Carroll


09 Jun 10 - 03:12 PM (#2924097)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

Oops, I am getting the light headed disease myself....just talking about machine gun posting...and reaching the consummation of my last post, I forgot to add the site link..


http://www.thecourt.ca/2010/06/04/seizure-of-the-gaza-flotilla/


09 Jun 10 - 03:17 PM (#2924101)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

I stand to be corrected, thanks for the compassion, not the discussion, nor the obsession....not all of us are obsessively compassionate. You got me on that one....us folks that know everything deserve to slip up once and awhile....it encourages the naysayers, who are always looking for an opposite perspective and a comspiracy to feel "hard done" by.


09 Jun 10 - 03:18 PM (#2924102)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

CaroleC (I like the French version) Take a breath....posting too often (in machine gun fashon) robs the brain of oxygen...it can get one light headed....and god knows where that will take the thread:)

I notice it's only the hasbara people who like to use these kinds of smear tactics. Like I said, when one has no legitimate arguments...

:)


09 Jun 10 - 03:18 PM (#2924103)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

Look at that....three in a row...Don't worry folks, the record is safe:)


09 Jun 10 - 03:19 PM (#2924104)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

Dammmm...Carole wrecked my hat trick....


09 Jun 10 - 03:19 PM (#2924105)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

People make reference to "Carol's video" Egad, was she there also....If so, I move aside (from knowing everything, about every issue, may I add) to her first hand observations of events that sorry day.

I was not there. I was watching the live feed the whole time.


09 Jun 10 - 03:22 PM (#2924106)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

What do you know...can't let your guard down, around here. folks are sharp as a pin...when I was trying real hard to smear folks and know everything they come between me and my hat trick post'in record.


09 Jun 10 - 03:28 PM (#2924111)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

From your link, Ed -

At the most general, the applicable law is 'public international law' (PIL), which is the term for the law that primarily deals with interstate relations.

So tell me which states we are discussing in the context of the application of this law.


09 Jun 10 - 03:30 PM (#2924114)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

Sorry Carole, don't want to say much...in case it drives you to smearing language, eat'in popcorn on sofas, watching live feeds, or learning new hebrew words to post to impress the young'uns.


09 Jun 10 - 03:34 PM (#2924117)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Just as I thought. You don't have any arguments. So be it. Just remember, I'm not the only person who can see your posts. Everyone else can see them, too.


09 Jun 10 - 03:43 PM (#2924128)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/03/reporter-disputes-israeli-account-of-raid/?scp=1&sq=Lede


09 Jun 10 - 03:44 PM (#2924129)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

"You don't have any arguments"

Of course not, when one knows everything, what s the point in arguing? No real need for multiples here?

"I'm not the only person who can see your posts. Everyone else can see them, too"


Duh, you got me on that one, I never thought of that. Stupid me.

I thought all mudcat discussions could olly be seen by you and me?
I will never get used to the internet.


09 Jun 10 - 03:45 PM (#2924130)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

Why in the world would 77% of it's Arab citizens say they would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world. Sure makes one wonder, doesn't it?

Not at all hard to understand - elementary patriotism would explain it - "This is my country - it is where I belong, and I refuse to be driven into exile".


09 Jun 10 - 04:40 PM (#2924144)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

Now, let's put that quote back into it's original context:


DonT, referring to Israel: "An oasis of fascism, racism, and discriminatory constraint, would probably be a more apposite description."

My goodness, what an absolutely horrible place that must be. Why in the world would 77% of it's Arab citizens say they would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world. Sure makes one wonder, doesn't it?

Changes the meaning somewhat, wot?


09 Jun 10 - 04:44 PM (#2924146)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

A lawyer provides information from legal experts explaining how and why the attack on the flotilla was illegal...

http://theonlydemocracy.org/2010/06/links-and-video-about-the-gaza-freedom-flotilla/


09 Jun 10 - 04:45 PM (#2924148)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

This video shows Israeli terrorists kicking someone who is lying on the ground and then shooting him. The video says it's the young man who had US citizenship...

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=604238508&v=wall&story_fbid=114967525214151#!/?ref=home


09 Jun 10 - 04:49 PM (#2924149)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Of course they would rather live where they are than anywhere else in the world. That's where they're from! But if you ask them whether they would prefer to remain there under the present regime, or if they would prefer it if there was a different government, you would likely get a very different answer. But nobody in Israel is ever going to ask them that question.


09 Jun 10 - 05:05 PM (#2924158)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

Changes the meaning somewhat, wot? ,/i>

Not at all. It increases respect for the courage and determination of Palestinians living in Israel.


09 Jun 10 - 05:06 PM (#2924159)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

Today the Talibans, in Afghanistan, hanged a child 7 years old as a spy. But our main concern is how Israel reacted to a provocation. Our We Shall Overcome is mobilized against Israel. A new atrocity. Only anti-sionism? Nothing to do with anti-semitism? There won't be a thread so many posts long for any other cause. That's our problem.


09 Jun 10 - 05:36 PM (#2924179)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Carol,

The video from the following post:

From: CarolC - PM
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 04:45 PM

Is not accessible to non facebook users and probably not even accessible to those facebook users who arent associated with whoever posted it there.

You may need to provide a new link to the original source.


09 Jun 10 - 05:40 PM (#2924183)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Roberto,

First, - you need to provide a link to that story.

Second, - if it is true then it is a terrible crimne and I utterly condemn it.

Third, - there are no mudcatters who will defend murder of a 7 year old by the taliban, so there will be no debate as everyone will agree.

So the discussion will end very quickly unlike this discussion where there are many who are defending the actions of the IDF.

Fourth, - The IDF are meant to be on 'our side'.

Who is our side?

The USA, the UK and Israel, alleged champions of democracy and human rights in the war against terror and alleged champions George Bushes new world order.

You will find multiple threads as long as this one about British and American atrocities for exactly the same reason.


09 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM (#2924187)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Joe,

I join BB and others in supporting Carols multiple posts earlier.

As she states, she was responding to a multitude of different posts, therefore it was useful to post several times to address each one clearly.

In addition I am also surprised by the tone of your post. It doesn't address the topic being discussed and it doesn't seem to be the neutral observation of a moderator.

I hope that I am right in believing that it was not about poking the funny unpopular girl with a stick for your own and your friends enjoyment, or indeed about reminding her who is in charge.

She has very clearly and rationally defended her view on the subject being discussed. If there is an issue with this subject being discussed then that issue involves everyone on the thread and not just carol.

BB - You are indeed an honourable guy and I salute you.


09 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM (#2924188)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

"""We mustn't tire of reminding others: the blockade concerns only arms and the material needed to manufacture them.""

Such total naivete, and lack of rational analysis.

I am not going to bother to repeat the catalogue of items which have been denied the residents of Gaza.

Suffice to say, they include foodstuffs which could only be classed as very long term weapons, which might, in thirty years or so, cause an outbreak of heart attacks.

One banned item is concrete, which is needed to rebuild the infrastructure totally destroyed by the Israelis' somewhat unusual brand of proportionate response. Unless somebody here knows something I don't, there are no effective concrete weapons.

So, you are wrong once again.

Do try to keep up. There are a number of reliable sources for the fact that the Israelis are blocking essential humanitarian aid, and that the residents of Gaza are being deprived of sufficient food (i.e. STARVED).

They don't want Israeli assistance. They want Israel back inside its legal borders, and its nose out of their affairs.

Then they can, and will, rebuild, and feed themselves.

Don T.


09 Jun 10 - 05:55 PM (#2924192)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Thanks, Lox.


Roberto, my tax dollars aren't funding the activities of the Taliban. In fact, my tax dollars are being used to fight the Taliban.

So, number one: I am not being made complicit in the activities of the Taliban as I am the activities of the government of Israel, and number two: focusing on what people do with my tax money is my responsibility and is something that I am able to do. If Israel doesn't want me to be working as hard as I can to get them to stop doing what they are doing with my tax money, they should stop taking my tax money and with it, making me complicit in their war crimes.


09 Jun 10 - 05:57 PM (#2924194)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

"BB - You are indeed an honourable guy and I salute you."

Don't usually agree with you but........ ditto


09 Jun 10 - 05:58 PM (#2924195)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""I find it hard to believe that IDF commandos would allow themselves to be clubbed into submission without firing a shot if they had weapons to hand.""

They certainly had hand guns, which were resonsible for the multiple bullet holes in their victims, many shot in the back, or back of the head.

This has already been established.

Now, it is also known that some of those hand guns were taken by the defenders. None of them were used on the soldiers, none of whom were in fact shot.

This does not gel with the idea of a number of fanatics being prsent with the goal of becoming martyrs. If there is one thing we should have learned by now, it is that fanatical martyrs take as many as possible of the enemy with them to the grave.

It still reads as state sponsored piracy and murder.

Don T.


09 Jun 10 - 06:16 PM (#2924211)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Here's the video (on YouTube) of the Israeli terrorists kicking and then shooting the passenger who is on the ground...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdA6jJ8dOZQ


09 Jun 10 - 06:21 PM (#2924214)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""So to say we must punish the people of Gaza because of Hamas, or that we can't negotiate with Hamas because it has committed acts of terrorism is really the height of hypocrisy.""

A very valid point Carol. Many of the terrorists who murdered British soldiers prior to and during 1948, ended up in powerful positions in the Israeli government.

Menachim Begin, ex prime minister of Israel, burned British soldiers in their tents.

It happened in many other places too, that ex terrorists became national leaders.

Archbishop Macharios
Jomo Kenyatta

Don T.


09 Jun 10 - 06:34 PM (#2924227)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""Why in the world would 77% of it's Arab citizens say they would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world. Sure makes one wonder, doesn't it?""

And you can of course post the source survey which produced that statistic?...or did you conjure it out of thin air?

And you can state with authority, and supporting evidence, that the 77% don't have any issues with the way their country is governed, or with its treatment of their Palestinian brothers?

NO?....I THOUGHT NOT!

Don T.


09 Jun 10 - 07:10 PM (#2924254)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

I see Ed has discovered passive aggression. Read an instructional book, did we, or watch a video on YouTube?

Ah well, as Carol says, if you don't have a cogent case to present, resort to other tactics.


09 Jun 10 - 07:18 PM (#2924261)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

"And you can of course post the source survey which produced that statistic?...or did you conjure it out of thin air?"

Do you use this forum only to air your anti-Israel rants and don't read other posts?
The source has been posted to this thread, I will leave it to you to do your homework.


09 Jun 10 - 07:27 PM (#2924273)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

The hasbara brigade has gone largely silent since I posted that video. I wonder if they're calling headquarters and asking for instructions.


09 Jun 10 - 07:34 PM (#2924276)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

"Internet killed the hasbara star

by Adam Horowitz on June 8, 2010 · 86 comments

One of the most striking trends following the flotilla attack has been how quickly Israeli hasbara has been exposed and discredited by internet journalists. Robert Mackey has a post on the Times Lede blog highlighting some examples today - Max Blumenthal's reporting on the doctored IDF audio of the attack and Noam Sheizaf's work on Turkish photos of the Mavi Marmara attack which contradict IDF claims. To these two I would add Lia Tarachansky and Blumenthal's work disproving the IDF's claim that the flotilla was linked to Al Qaeda, Jared Malsin's work confirming the doctored audio, and Ali Abunimah, who has been in the lead on many of these stories and lately has been reconstructuing the path of the Mavi Marmara to show it was actually fleeing at the time of the Israeli attack. All of this has appeared on the internet and are helping to shape the story, despite the Israeli Foreign Ministry's best efforts.

These efforts are helping to fill a crucial void around the narrative of the attack, as Israel still refuses to share the entirety of the video and still footage it confiscated from flotilla passengers. Israel has released snippets of the footage which they believe support their version of events, apparently believing that by limiting access to the footage they could control the story. This has clearly not been the case. Instead they are on the defensive, busy issuing clarifications and apologies. The one "success" in their hasbara effort has been the racist "we are the world" knock off which really only confirms how absolutely tone deaf many Israelis are right now to feelings around the world. The fact that this embarrassment is viewed as a success in Israeli circles has been termed "Hasbara Derangement Syndrome" by Israeli blogger Didi Remez. They ended up having to apologize for that one as well even though Israeli spokesperson Mark Regev "thought it was funny."

It seems that Israeli hasbara is getting a bit tougher in the age of the internet. I mean, who's going to believe "a land without people, for a people without a land" when there are ten YouTube videos to prove you wrong?"

http://mondoweiss.net/2010/06/internet-killed-the-hasbara-star.html


09 Jun 10 - 07:40 PM (#2924282)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

"I see Ed has discovered passive aggression. Read an instructional book, did we, or watch a video on YouTube?

Ah well, as Carol says, if you don't have a cogent case to present, resort to other tactics."

Speaking of tactics mousey, I see you are well versed in the ad hominem attack tactic. Can you say hypocrisy?


09 Jun 10 - 11:32 PM (#2924355)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

"bobad"


10 Jun 10 - 01:36 AM (#2924381)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

Lox. You can find the story from many other sources. I've also read it on the New York Times site.

Adnkronos International. Afghanistan: Taliban 'hang 7-year-old boy for spying'
Lashkargah, 9 June (AKI): Taliban fighters have hanged a seven-year-old boy, claiming he was passing information to foreign soldiers in the volatile southern province of Helmand, the governor's spokesman, Daud Ahmadi, told Pajhwok Afghan News.
The child's shocking murder took place in the Sarwan Qala area of Sangin district late on Tuesday. The boy, whose name was not immediately known, was abducted from the village of Heratyan, Ahmadi said.

CarolC. Now everything is clear. It was a matter of taxation. No taxation without representation, I suppose.


10 Jun 10 - 01:49 AM (#2924382)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

What does this story about Afghanistan have to do with this thread?


10 Jun 10 - 02:01 AM (#2924383)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

CarolC. Now everything is clear. It was a matter of taxation. No taxation without representation, I suppose.

No, Roberto. It's about complicity.


10 Jun 10 - 02:44 AM (#2924391)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

mousethief. It has to do with this thread because it shows a lack of proportion, we concentrate out attention on Israel more than any other Country in the world, we denounce so called atrocities when Israel is involved and pay poor attention to many real atrocities perpetrated by Countries and political entities that so often unite their voices to our voices to condemn Israel as the quintessence of evil in the world. We describe the world without Israel as a world in peace, peace at last, as does CarolC when she writes that Palestina without Isarel would be a tolerant and democratic State and that there is no reason not to trust Hamas: this is about complicity.


10 Jun 10 - 03:22 AM (#2924403)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Carol, your new video is not as clear as the previous one.
There is clearly a fight. It is not clear that a weapon was fired.
Here is a clear video of the landings.
At around 53 seconds, after numerous clubbings that would be fatal but for helmets, after a soldier is thrown to a lower deck, notice the soldier to the right of the picture armed only with a paint ball gun!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo


10 Jun 10 - 03:27 AM (#2924404)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Here is footage of an Israeli boat before the landings.
Who would you say is attacking who?
How much incoming fire is there?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6sAEYpHF24&feature=channel


10 Jun 10 - 03:34 AM (#2924406)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Roberto,

Thank you for the reference.

Do you have a response to the rest of my post?


In addition, you stated:

"We describe the world without Israel as a world in peace, peace at last,"

Who says this and where do they say it?

"CarolC when she writes that Palestina without Isarel would be a tolerant and democratic State"

Where has Carol written this?


10 Jun 10 - 05:22 AM (#2924441)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

These are the quotations from CarolC in this thread I'm making reference to: "There is no reason not to trust Hamas. Their primary concern is the welfare of their people"

"If Israel were to be handed to the Palestinians, all of the Jews who wanted to remain there would be able to and those who didn't want to remain there would be able to leave. It would be a democratic state"


10 Jun 10 - 05:41 AM (#2924449)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll

From The Irish Times this morning.
I was struck by the fact that an Israeli 'extreme right' isn't just a Hamas invention
Jim Carroll

WHERE BURNED AND BULLDOZED OLIVE TREES ARE MOURNED
MICHAEL JANSEN
Nablus,
West Bank
A GROUP OF RABBIS SEEK TO SHOW THAT JUDAISM SHOULD NOT BE EQUATED WITH THE EXTREME RIGHT
OUR minibus speeds past the dusty, deserted Huwara checkpoint, south of the northern West Bank city of Nablus. Huwara used to be a major obstacle, jammed with cars and people; today neither a vehicle nor a person is in sight. The road between Ramallah, the Palestinian Authority's administrative centre, and Nablus is open, except when Israeli troops decide to mount a flying checkpoint.
We turn east and make for the rolling hills clad in olive trees, their trunks dark and twisted, leaves green and silver. Most of the trees are young, perhaps half a century old, but here and there stands an ancient tree, planted hundreds of years ago, its trunk hollow, its branches bowed. Palestinians compare themselves to the rooted and steadfast olive trees. When settlers burn or bulldoze them, Palestinians mourn olives as family members.
These sunny, apparently quiet hills are a theatre of war.
"Palestinian farmers have a lot of trouble with settlers in this area," observes Rabbis for Human Rights director Arik Ascherman.
"We help the farmers plough their fields and pick their olives. Our legal department deals with expropriations. We also rebuild [Palestinian] homes that have been demolished and plant olive trees. [The fact that] we are rabbis sends a message [to the Palestinians] that they should not equate [the Jewish] religion with the violent extreme right" in Israel, Ascherman says.
He points out that after the Oslo accord was signed in 1993, Israel accelerated settlement construction. While Palestinians expected that the land Israel conquered in 1967 would be theirs, the Israelis planned to negotiate over this land and sought to lay claim to as much of it as possible. After the second intifada erupted in 2000, Israelis tried to "stop Palestinians from working their land so that after some years this could be claimed by settlers", he says.
"Ours is the only rabbinic organisation in Israel dedicated exclusively to human rights. It was established in 1988, during the first [Palestinian] intifada... For the past seven or eight years Trocaire has supported our programmes."
We wait in the countryside for Jamal, who bounces along the road on an elderly red tractor. "His own tractor was trashed by settlers," asserts Ascherman, who has come to work out with Jamal when to send volunteers to accompany him when he ploughs two large fields covered in golden grasses which nod in the breeze.
By law Palestinians should have access to their land and the army is supposed to protect them, but since settlers generally have a free hand, these rabbis act as human shields.
Upper Yanoun is a hillside hamlet with 200 inhabitants belonging to the same clan.
"In 2002 settlers came in the middle of the night and expelled the villagers," says Ascherman
"The settlers harass the villagers, burn their olives and wheat fields. The settlers enter the village constantly."
After coffee with Rashed, the clan leader, we proceed to a house occupied by four Ecumenical Accompaniers who are based here to deter attacks and report them to the UN. Pat Devlin from the UK says: "A group of 19 settlers came into the village, took the cover off the well, climbed down and swam in it. The army said they were 'brave youth'... They are taking land [that] villagers farm and use for grazing, driving down their capacity to earn an income," she states.
Back on the flat on a narrow road running between the fields, we spot a herd of gazelle foraging in the tall grass.
"Palestinians say the only good thing about the settlers is they have stopped us from eating all the gazelle," remarks Ascherman


10 Jun 10 - 06:00 AM (#2924461)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

Roberto, don't get sucked into that game, remember what Humpty Dumpty said; "When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'


10 Jun 10 - 06:21 AM (#2924468)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Thank you Roberto.

Providing examples is helpful, answers the question and clarifies your position for anyone reading the thread.

Bobad would do well to take note.


I am also curious to be directed to the actual posts that each quote came from so that I may see them in context.


And I look forward to seeing Carols response.


10 Jun 10 - 06:23 AM (#2924470)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

bobad, I'd appreciate if you would explain to me where you think I made words say more or something different than they actually mean.


10 Jun 10 - 06:36 AM (#2924473)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

4th June 11.24 AM


10 Jun 10 - 06:37 AM (#2924474)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

That last for Lox not Roberto.
Sorry.


10 Jun 10 - 06:40 AM (#2924476)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Roberto, You said:

"These are the quotations from CarolC in this thread I'm making reference to"

I used my 'Find' button on my web browser to look for the two quotes you have attributed to carol as having been made in this thread.

It found both quotes.

But only one of them in a previous post by Carol, the other was only in a previous post by you.

The one which exists only in your posts is: "There is no reason not to trust Hamas. Their primary concern is the welfare of their people".

Which means that Carol can't have said that in this thread.

___________

The other quote ...

"If Israel were to be handed to the Palestinians, all of the Jews who wanted to remain there would be able to and those who didn't want to remain there would be able to leave. It would be a democratic state"

... didn't read as Carols personal opinion of what might happen, but appeared to be her report of the likely viewpoint of Palestinians with whom she is in contact, as the whole post began with the following ...

"number6, from all of the information I have, and I have a lot of information from people in Palestine ... etc ..."


I am sure Carol will clarify her position on this when she comes back online.


10 Jun 10 - 06:45 AM (#2924478)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

Lox, CarolC writes "There is no reason not to trust Hamas" in her post 04 Jun 10 - 12:17 PM.


10 Jun 10 - 07:11 AM (#2924488)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Lox, while we are discussing old posts, you posted this.

"The people on the boat who were unfortunately killed, chose to attack the Israeli forces,"

This is BS. The IDF attacked the ship. The people on board defended themselves.

Please look at the clips I posted today, and withdraw.


10 Jun 10 - 07:14 AM (#2924491)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"The IDF attacked the ship."

In what way is this not true?


10 Jun 10 - 07:20 AM (#2924493)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Keith, your videos both show the passengers of a ship fighting off a boarding party.

That is called defence.

If they had boarded the Israeli boats that would be called aggression.


10 Jun 10 - 07:28 AM (#2924495)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

Roberto, I have sent you a message via PM.


10 Jun 10 - 07:38 AM (#2924497)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

The IDF boarded.
That is not an attack.
It is a regular occurance at sea, and also on buses.
The IDF soldiers landed, with their paintball guns on their backs, and were attacked with great violence.
They endured nearly 3 minutes before a round was fired.
That shows unusual restraint.
The IDF did not attack, they merely landed.
Each in turn was met with extreme violence.
They were attacked.


10 Jun 10 - 07:49 AM (#2924501)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"It is a regular occurance at sea, and also on buses."

I see?

on buses eh?

I can't remember the last time I was on a privately chartered bus that was stormed by soldiers against the will of the passengers on board ...

... It clearly happens to you a lot though.


Lets pretend for the sake of this discussion that you never made such a ... comment.


OK - Its a regular occurrence at sea ... for soldiers to abseil onto civilian ships in international waters ...

nope ... still not sounding very regular to me ...


In fact this is a pretty outstanding affair.

That must be why its in the news.


10 Jun 10 - 08:06 AM (#2924508)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Roberto,

Thanks again.

I have to confess that I too am sceptical about the idea that Hamas are to be trusted.

But as Gerald Kaufman also said, "they are the only game in town", meaning that if there are to be negotiations, Hamas can't be ignored.

However, I respect Carols assessment on the basis that Hamas, for all their ugly menace, are at least transparent about their intentions.

Their official line is more hardline than their behind the scenes stuff.

Their behind the scenes stuff is more about deal making and their on the sleeve stuff is about war.


I haven't engaged in the debates about who broke what ceasefires first the way that other mudcatters have, but I can say that Carol is pretty honest and advocates a clear, consistent and well supported view, as does her #1 opponent Bearded Bruce.



I do note however that while Israels official line is that they seek a fair and peaceful resolution, their unofficial backroom stuff seems to be about building more controversial settlements and about slandering their opponents.


I note Bobads public announcement that he has sent you a personal message, something that you will already know since you will have received it on your page, thus rendering his public notification of it obsolete.


I don't know what the subject of it is, but I can't help speculating that it involves a bit of back room character assassination.


Well once you have been given 'the lowdown' on how 'they' operate and the tactics 'they' use, feel welcome to post freely and expresss your opinion on the mudcat just as I do, Bobad does and Carol does without restriction.


10 Jun 10 - 09:17 AM (#2924548)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll

The fairy tale
"IDF soldiers landed, with their paintball guns on their backs, and were attacked with great violence."
The facts.
"Those found on board ship: stun grenade, catapult, metal bar, knife, broken bottle.
Those in posession of the pirates: paintball gun, tazer gun, Uzi sub-machine guns, Glock handguns."
Now - who was attacked and who did the attacking?
Jim Carroll


10 Jun 10 - 09:17 AM (#2924550)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

We describe the world without Israel as a world in peace, peace at last, as does CarolC when she writes that Palestina without Isarel would be a tolerant and democratic State and that there is no reason not to trust Hamas: this is about complicity.

Roberto, there is not a chance in hell that Hamas would be ruling Palestine/Israel if it were a state for all of its citizens and citizenship is not conditional on religion or ethnicity. And this is why I am not concerned about Hamas when I say that Israel should be a country for all of its citizens and that citizenship should not be conditional on any religion or ethnicity.

Hamas didn't even get a majority of the vote among Palestinians. They only got a plurality. There no way that it would get a majority of the vote if all of the people who in what is now Israel would also be voting.

You just keep framing it as if I believe that Hamas would be ruling the country because your own racism doesn't allow you to tolerate the idea of Israel being a country for all of its citizens and for citizenship not to be conditional on one's religion or ethnicity.


10 Jun 10 - 09:27 AM (#2924554)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Keith, the paint ball pellets were filled with glass fragments. The people who were hit with the paint pellets sustained severe soft tissue injuries. And you can quite clearly see the guy in the last video I posted firing his gun. You can see the recoil. And the passenger in question did end up dead, with several bullets in his chest and head. You can also quite clearly see the two Israelis kicking someone who was on the ground.


10 Jun 10 - 09:31 AM (#2924555)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Here is footage of an Israeli boat before the landings.
Who would you say is attacking who?
How much incoming fire is there?


First of all, there is no way to know that this footage was taken before the Israelis boarded. This video doesn't show any of that. You are taking the Israeli government's word that it happened that way with no evidence to back it up. Secondly, the stun grenade is being thrown back to the Israeli boat. The only reason anyone on the Mavi Marmara had any stun grenades at all is because the Isralis fired them at the Mavi Marmara in the first place. So that answers your question of who is attacking whom.


10 Jun 10 - 09:36 AM (#2924557)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll

Apart from the eye-witness and press reports after the boarding which carried the above information, there's a certain crassness in the suggestion that the Israeli commanders (of one of the most belligerantly aggressive armies in the world) would send in troops armed only with paint-ball guns.
Tell us you're 'avin' a larf Keef!
Jim Carroll


10 Jun 10 - 09:41 AM (#2924560)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

These are the quotations from CarolC in this thread I'm making reference to: "There is no reason not to trust Hamas. Their primary concern is the welfare of their people"

"If Israel were to be handed to the Palestinians, all of the Jews who wanted to remain there would be able to and those who didn't want to remain there would be able to leave. It would be a democratic state"


Roberto, I was answering a question from someone else who phrased it in that way. Maybe it was you. I do not expect Israel to be "handed to the Palestinians". I expect it to simply join Palestine and become a state for all of its citizens with citizenship not being conditional upon anyone's religion or ethnicity. The fact that you are glomming on to this one answer to someone else's question while ignoring all of the times that I have stated it as it is stated above is extremely dishonest, and is further evidence that it's your own racism that is preventing you from being able to entertain the possibility of Palestinians being able to have equal rights in Palestine/Israel.


10 Jun 10 - 09:49 AM (#2924566)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Lox, CarolC writes "There is no reason not to trust Hamas" in her post 04 Jun 10 - 12:17 PM.

I stand by this. But it has nothing whatever to do with what I expect to happen when the present regime in Israel is dismantled.


10 Jun 10 - 09:56 AM (#2924571)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

The IDF boarded.
That is not an attack.
It is a regular occurance at sea, and also on buses.


The Israelis did not have permission to board. It is highly illegal and considered an attack in maritime law to board anyone's vessel without permission, especially if the people on board are making it very clear that they do not want to be boarded.


10 Jun 10 - 10:02 AM (#2924574)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

It is difficult for me to think that a person with a normal ability to perceive the reality could actually be convinced that a one state solution would have any chance to lead to peace (and democracy) in that area. I think we have no rights to play with those people making experiments. I'm aware that many of the supporters of the one state solution are not dreamers, but the one state they have in mind is that pursued for many decades by the PLO and recently by Hamas, symbolized by the maps that show no Israel, but only Palestine all over that area. There is also a right wing in Israel whose aim is to rule the whole area (Eretz Israel). In my opinion, the two states solution has no alternative if we also want to stop the killings. I'm not sure for democracy, because it is not in Hamas culture, let's hope for Fatah's evolutions (in the times of Arafat, there was no democracy where he ruled). It is not my racism, to use CarolC's gratuitous insult, that makes me think the one state solution to be a mask for a new version of the final solution, but normal sense of reality.


10 Jun 10 - 10:03 AM (#2924576)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I note Bobads public announcement that he has sent you a personal message, something that you will already know since you will have received it on your page, thus rendering his public notification of it obsolete.

I don't know what the subject of it is, but I can't help speculating that it involves a bit of back room character assassination.


My guess would be that they're recruiting him for the hasbara brigade; getting him officially in the loop.


10 Jun 10 - 10:11 AM (#2924583)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

CarolC, I see you can't debate without insulting. I send back to you your parcels with "racism" in it.


10 Jun 10 - 10:16 AM (#2924586)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

It is difficult for me to think that a person with a normal ability to perceive the reality could actually be convinced that a one state solution would have any chance to lead to peace (and democracy) in that area.

It is difficult for me to think that a person with even less than normal ability to perceive reality would actually think that a state that artificially maintains a majority of one particular religion or ethnicity can in any way be described as a "democracy" or that it could ever be a peaceful arrangement.

I think we have no rights to play with those people making experiments.

I am not doing that. I am merely predicting what is going to happen. Just the way it happened in South Africa. And it certainly is appropriate to make such comparisons. Even South Africans say what exists right now in Palestine/Israel is apartheid, and many of them say it is far worse than the apartheid that was experienced in South Africa.

I'm aware that many of the supporters of the one state solution are not dreamers, but the one state they have in mind is that pursued for many decades by the PLO and recently by Hamas, symbolized by the maps that show no Israel, but only Palestine all over that area.

You are not in a position to tell me what I have in mind and what I don't have in mind. What I have in mind is a country like all of the countries in the West, in which everyone has equal rights and citizenship is not dependent upon anyone's religion or ethnicity.

It is not my racism, to use CarolC's gratuitous insult, that makes me think the one state solution to be a mask for a new version of the final solution, but normal sense of reality.

You keep accusing people of anti-Semitism, as you are doing just above. You're the one who has started the gratuitous attacks. If you can't tolerate the idea of a state in which Jews do not artificially maintain a permanent majority and in which everyone has exactly the same rights and citizenship is not in any way tied to anyone's religion or ethnicity, then you are a racist.

And you even are insinuating that because I believe that everyone in Palestine/Israel should have equal rights, that means I am advocating for all Jews to be killed. This is not only a specious lie, it is also quite an insane way to interpret what I have said.

I believe in equal rights for all. I don't believe anyone's rights should be dependent upon which religion or ethnic group they belong to. You think that some groups should be privileged over other groups and some should be denied citizenship if they don't belong to the correct group. This makes you not only a racist, but also a supremacist.


10 Jun 10 - 10:17 AM (#2924588)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

CarolC, I see you can't debate without insulting. I send back to you your parcels with "racism" in it.

Roberto, you're the one who started the insults when you started flinging around the old "anti-Semite" canard.


10 Jun 10 - 10:22 AM (#2924591)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Lox, the navies of the world do carry out boarding operations every day.
They search vessels for drugs, illegal immigrants and so forth.
The IDF has boarded many vessels
This one made the news because of the violence.
The video shows who started it.
The video clearly shows a soldier in the melee with just a paint ball gun.
Whatever was in the pellets they would do less harm than a metal bar swung with both hands.
I do not believe they were stun grenades Carol.
Just fireworks.
It is silly to suggest they were thrown up from the boat.
Carol, the video of the boat must have been before the boarding.
We have footage of the boarding . No boats are alongside.
After 3 minutes the firing started and the demonstrators were ordered by their commander to stop.


10 Jun 10 - 10:22 AM (#2924592)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

And I also notice you can't admit there can be ideas that are different from yours but as much legitimate. I'm discussing what you say, not what you are, while you're labelling me a racist and a member of the hasbara brigade.


10 Jun 10 - 10:24 AM (#2924594)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Roberto, If you look back through the mudcats extensive discussions on Israel, I don't think you will find any advocates of a one state solution.

Certainly as far as I am aware, all the main players in the debate on this thread advocate a two state solution.

I personally believe the solution is for Israel to accept that they should withdraw to within the pre 1967 borders.

Though I understand the fear of Hamas.

As I understand it, most of the debate on here is about whether or not this solution would work, whether there is a historical justification for those borders as opposed to oters, and whether or not The Israelis or the palestinians are sincere in their wish to find a solution and stick to it once it has been found.


There is no innocent party in modern day Israel/Palestine.


Palestinians see Israel annexng more land in the form of settlements and humiliating them for seemingly gratuitous reasons.

Israelis see Palestinians as being full of Hate for Jews and wanting to destroy Israel.


2 solutions would be for Israel to stop expanding and for Palestinian extremists to stop firing rockets into Israel.


But who will take the first step?


Well - Israel is meant to be on our team - the allies - and they are funded by Britisjh and American Tax dollars and pounds which makes Me complicit in their actions if I don't publicly disagree.

Hamas do not claim to represent me or my ideology nor do they receive any funding from me.

So I know where the focus of my disssatisfaction has to be.


10 Jun 10 - 10:24 AM (#2924595)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

Sorry, I left out to whom I'm replying: CarolC.

And I also notice you can't admit there can be ideas that are different from yours but as much legitimate. I'm discussing what you say, not what you are, while you're labelling me a racist and a member of the hasbara brigade.


10 Jun 10 - 10:32 AM (#2924603)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"They search vessels for drugs, illegal immigrants and so forth."

Within their own jurisdiction.

"The IDF has boarded many vessels"

Yes.

"This one made the news because of the violence."

The others were extremely violent too - its just that noone was killed with live ammo.

"The video shows who started it."

Yes - the soldiers who committed a hostile act by boarding it in international waters armed to the teeth.

"Whatever was in the pellets they would do less harm than a metal bar swung with both hands."

Ever been shot with a paintball?

What about witht the right protective gear?

What about if it has glass in it?

"I do not believe they were stun grenades Carol."

Are you saying that the IDF got it wrong about that too?

I'll be back


10 Jun 10 - 10:43 AM (#2924610)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Lox, the navies of the world do carry out boarding operations every day.
They search vessels for drugs, illegal immigrants and so forth.
The IDF has boarded many vessels
This one made the news because of the violence.


Are you saying this is done all the time in international waters?

The video shows who started it.
The video clearly shows a soldier in the melee with just a paint ball gun.


You are not in a position to say this because you do not have video that shows what happened before the scene to which you are referring. You only have an absence of video confirming the witness testimony and the announcement of wounded passengers prior to the Israelis boarding the ship. But we do have quite a lot of witness testimony as well as the announcement of wounded passengers before the ship was boarded.

Whatever was in the pellets they would do less harm than a metal bar swung with both hands.

If someone doesn't want to be hit with a metal bar, all they have to do is not stand in range of it. The range of a metal bar is only a few feet. This is not the case with a paint pellet filled with glass that is fired at your face by someone who is standing a safe distance away from you. It's a lot harder to avoid being hit with a metal bar than it is to avoid being hit with a paint pellet filled with glass.

I do not believe they were stun grenades Carol.
Just fireworks.


I note the word "believe" in that statement, Keith. So you admit that you are only going on belief rather than on evidence.

It is silly to suggest they were thrown up from the boat.

They were not thrown up from the boat. They were fired from the boat.

Carol, the video of the boat must have been before the boarding.
We have footage of the boarding . No boats are alongside.


You've got to be kidding me. There were many boats along side of all of the ships the whole time. You have no evidence that that video was taken before the boarding. You're just going on belief. But it really doesn't matter whether it was or not. We have witness testimony and evidence that backs it up that the Israelis attacked the ship.


10 Jun 10 - 10:46 AM (#2924612)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

And I also notice you can't admit there can be ideas that are different from yours but as much legitimate. I'm discussing what you say, not what you are, while you're labelling me a racist and a member of the hasbara brigade.

Clearly this is not true, Roberto. You have been working very hard to paint me as an anti-Semite.

I admit that there are ideas that are different from mine that are just as legitimate. But discrimination, apartheid, and privileging one group over all others will never be legitimate ideas.


10 Jun 10 - 10:49 AM (#2924615)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I got this backwards so I will rephrase:

It's a lot easier to avoid being hit with a metal bar than it is to avoid being hit with a paint pellet filled with glass.


10 Jun 10 - 10:57 AM (#2924623)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

CarolC writes: discrimination, apartheid, and privileging one group over all others will never be legitimate ideas. I agree, these are not my ideas. Avoid inventing ghosts.


10 Jun 10 - 11:05 AM (#2924625)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

CarolC writes: discrimination, apartheid, and privileging one group over all others will never be legitimate ideas. I agree, these are not my ideas. Avoid inventing ghosts.

This is what exists in Israel now and what Israel is enforcing in occupied Palestine, and what you defend when you defend the status quo.


10 Jun 10 - 11:12 AM (#2924633)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oSmSqZce3k


10 Jun 10 - 11:16 AM (#2924636)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

CarolC, I don't defend the status quo but I support a two states solution, you don't know what else to invent to deny my right to express my point of view without your nasty insults about what I consider a tragedy and you seem to believe a tale with goodies against villains.


10 Jun 10 - 11:25 AM (#2924640)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

CarolC, I don't defend the status quo but I support a two states solution, you don't know what else to invent to deny my right to express my point of view without your nasty insults about what I consider a tragedy and you seem to believe a tale with goodies against villains.

Roberto, you started the nasty insults when you started committing character assassination against people here in this thread by accusing them of anti-Semitism. If you don't like getting what you dish out, don't dish it out.

I have no problem with a two state solution, as long as neither state tries to maintain any artificial majorities based on religion or ethnicity. But whether or not I support this is irrelevant because it's just not going to happen.


10 Jun 10 - 11:40 AM (#2924649)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

CarolC, I've accused of Anti-Semitism characters that fully deserve this charge, such as the italian group on board the flottilla, linked with a site full of anti-semite trash and to those "historians" that say that the holocaust never happenend. I expected this fact to mean something for a person with an acute sensibility against racism as you declare to be, but I was wrong.


10 Jun 10 - 11:45 AM (#2924652)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll

"The video clearly shows a soldier in the melee with just a paint ball gun.
Whatever was in the pellets they would do less harm than a metal bar swung with both hands.
I do not believe they were stun grenades Carol.
Just fireworks."
Paintball guns - fireworks - what has the Israeli army come to?
Monty Python would have a field day!
You have a list of the weapons carried by the Israeli Army and you have their track record for brutality - on what grounds do you "don't believe" (apart from the logic of an army sending in unarmed troops - that is)?
Jim Carroll


10 Jun 10 - 12:07 PM (#2924665)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

CarolC, I've accused of Anti-Semitism characters that fully deserve this charge, such as the italian group on board the flottilla, linked with a site full of anti-semite trash and to those "historians" that say that the holocaust never happenend. I expected this fact to mean something for a person with an acute sensibility against racism as you declare to be, but I was wrong.

I asked you to show me evidence that the woman whose writings appear on the page of the group you are saying is anti-Semitic even knows that her writing has appeared there. You have not answered my request. She writes for a different organization than the one that you are saying is anti-Semitic. So far, I have not seen any evidence that she actually writes for the anti-Semitic group or that she is even aware that her material appears on their pages or if she is aware of it, that she approves of it. Or that she is in any way in sympathy with their agenda or beliefs. And I have been in consultation with someone in Italy and asked this person to see if they could see any evidence of it, and they could not. So if you have any evidence that the woman whose writing you are talking about has knowledge that her writing appears on the website of an anti-Semitic group, or that she approves of or is in sympathy with what they say and do, please present it here now.

The United States Constitution regularly appears on neo-Nazi hate sites here in the US. That doesn't make the United States Constitution a neo-Nazi hate document.


10 Jun 10 - 12:10 PM (#2924667)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I am in a position to say who started it (the violence) because we see the first soldier set upon while still on the rope and clubbed to the deck.

All of the post from which this quote comes, Keith, is speculation. And you are not in a position to say who started it because you do not know what happened before that first Israeli boarded the ship.

We do have evidence that the Israelis opened fire first. You have nothing except what the government of Israel has said, and it has already been proven that quite a lot of what they have said about what happened is lies. So you are choosing to believe proven liars with no evidence to back it up. That's fine, just don't try to pretend that you are doing anything other than that.


10 Jun 10 - 12:19 PM (#2924674)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll

"Jim, you can see the soldiers with paintball guns."
You implied that the only weapons that the soldiers had were paint-ball guns - this in not true.
"The IDF soldiers landed, with their paintball guns on their backs, and were attacked with great violence."
The weapons carried were as I described - they don't send soldiers in with paintball guns and fireworks.
You seems to be confusing all this with a Sealed Knot event.
Jim Carroll


10 Jun 10 - 12:24 PM (#2924675)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"Yes I have been hit with one.
"Serious soft tissue damage" is hype for a nasty bruise."

Ok then - now imagine that it contains glass and has been fired into your face.

What kind of superficial bruising woould that do to a man?



Hey Keith - Here's a link to a Stun Grenade explosion.

Utterly Stunned

A flash and a bang - a bit like the clip you proviided.

But where did it come from?

Oh yes - Al Jazeeras reporter informed us that there were stun grenades being fired onto the ship.

So that is consistent with your video.

The reporters credibility is STILL intact.


10 Jun 10 - 12:27 PM (#2924677)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"I am in a position to say who started it (the violence) because we see the first soldier set upon while still on the rope and clubbed to the deck."

No you aren't because you are unable to refute whether bullets, rubber or live, or stun grenades were fired at the ship.


10 Jun 10 - 12:33 PM (#2924682)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

A flotilla of 9 ships with 800 passengers is preparing to head for Gaza soon.


10 Jun 10 - 12:47 PM (#2924693)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Ships can and are boarded in international waters.
Many navies are stopping and searching suspected pirates in the Indian Ocean right now, without asking their permission.


Are these ships sailing under the flag of any country?


Remember that arms ship from N Korea a couple of years ago.

The UN authorized the boarding of that ship. And this is what makes it illegal for Israel to board the ships of the flotilla without permission. In order for a blockade to be legal, it must first be approved by the UN Security Council. Israel's blockade of Gaza has not been approved by the UN Security Council. So just the act of boarding the ships of the flotilla in international waters (or even in Gazan waters had it taken place there) was an illegal attack under international law, and the people on the ships being boarded (ships sailing under the flags of several countries, making the ships the sovereign territory of those countries) had the right under international law to defend themselves and their ships and to do whatever it would take to prevent their ships from being boarded.


10 Jun 10 - 12:58 PM (#2924704)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

CarolC: TerraSantaLibera (http://www.terrasantalibera.org) is a site where you can often read articles by Angela Lano, together with The Protocols of the Elders of Zion; where they recommend books such as Il Martirio di Padre Tommaso per mano Giudaica (The martyrdom of Father Thomas at a Jewish hand); with medieval texts against the Jews; articles against the abortion, equalized to a murder; Christian crosses etc.

Angela Lano is also the Director of infopal.it. Mariano Mingarelli, leader of infopal.it since its foundation, a very known exponent of the organizations of friendship between Italy and the Palestinian people, resigned from his position as President of infopal.it a few days before the story of the Gaza flotilla stating that too many anti-Semite were in the organization and that he didn't want his name to stay alongside with theirs.


10 Jun 10 - 01:06 PM (#2924709)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John on the Sunset Coast

Antisemitism on the Mudcat?

Note—occasionally I do not qualify the term Mudcat or Mudcatter to indicate that I am only referring to those folks who actually have made the statements here paraphrased. I'm aware that some all those making ant-Israel statements have not expressed every of those sentiments. But the constant use of 'many' or 'some' would necessarily muddle already difficult syntax. My analysis is based on the present thread, and the various similar threads over the past seven or eight years. I am also aware that a few posters have tried to defend Israel in whole or part on a post by post basis (I admire the Quixotic adventure)-JotSC

For over week I've been reading the posts of the usual anti-Israel crowd on the Mudcat. They stress they are only critical of Israel, and piously note they are not anti-Jewish, or God forbid, anti-Semitic. It has even been said that nothing written at this thread is ant-Semitic. Some take care to tell us that we shouldn't vent our opprobrium on Jews as a group...that would wrong. Yes it would be wrong, but mouthing platitudes arem't enough to remove the stench of anti-Semitism which runs through the thread. And worse, many of the same folks who here claim they 'are not anti-Semitic' bemoan the deserved condemnation and resultant firing and retirement of Helen Thomas, whose comments were classic anti-Semitic remarks.
On the 'Cat, Israelis, and only Israelis are are blamed for the violence on the Turkish ship—indeed for all violence between Palestineans and Israelis. While there will be a lot of hand-wringing and interpretation about the exact sequence of events, there, it is instructive to note that no violence took place on any of the other six blockade runners. An honest assessment might consider that something different by the blockade runners occurred on that ship that led to deaths and injuries. But whatever happened, the proximate cause was trying to run the blockade.

As a result of the incident, there is renewed call, here, to deligitimize Israel as a nation, and certainly as a Jewish state. There have been no calls for doing away with North Korea, which periodically shoots down South Korean aircraft, fires on and sinks South Korean vessels, and kidnaps South Korean soldiers or citizens...to say nothing of U S. journalists. There has been no call to deligitimize Somalia for for international piracy, or Sudan for the genocide in Darfur. There was no call to deligitimize Germany for trying to take over Europe, and for initiating World War II. There has never been a call to deligitimize any of the European colonial powers which raped the people and resources of various regions of the world they gathered unto themselves. There are hundreds more examples I could mention, all far worse than anything Israel is alleged to be doing to Palestineans...but only Israel is singled out as needing to be excised from the world.

Israel is said to be undemocratic because it is a Jewish State. This is a straw man...there are no democratic Muslim states if one uses that same criterion which is used to castigate Israel. But there is no call to deligitimize them. Only Israel, the Jewish state!
It is said on Mudcat, that "most Israeli archaeologists and historians" assert that that European Jews have no connection to the Jews of the Near East or to Palestine (as Judea/Israel) itself. First, there only a bare minority (perhaps three or four) question that, and even they don't go so far as to be absolutist about it. Recent archaeological discoveries found in the Holy Land, Egypt and the generalized Middle East, tend to support many aspects of the Jewish history. Second, a simple Google search will find scores of articles which show evidence that Ashkenazi (European) Jews possess genetic and DNA material connecting them to ancient Israel. This also holds for Indian and Chinese Jews. There has been discussion of the Khazars and other European group groups which may have converted to Judaism in the Middle Ages, plus or minus, as proof that European Jews have no connection to Israel. Judaism considers that every convert to Judaism is the same as if s/he had actually been at Sinai. So by blood or by tradition all Jews have a connection to Israel. This is not unlike America (at least before the days of hyphenated Americans); naturalized citizens have every right and obligation, and are part of the history of America, just as same as natural born citizens. The only exception is the ban against becoming President.
The simple fact is that Muslim Arabs do not want a Zionist or Jewish entity within their region. And neither do many who post here. No matter what concessions, Israel has made, from repatriation of prisoners, to the total dismantling of Jewish settlements in the Gaza Strip, the reciprocal event has been a rocket attack or Intifada most often. But only Israel is blamed for violence!

Several have called for a single state solution for a joint of Israel/Palestine, with absolute equality as between Jews and Palestineans. The modern vision of Israel as a Jewish homeland goes back to earliest Zionism, and was ratified by the League of Nations and the British Mandate (which none-the-less lopped off about 70% of the Mandate to create the Kingdom of Trans-Jordan about 1923). The United Nations created Israel, as well as India, Pakistan, and several other countries subsequent to World War II. While Israel is basically a democracy, it is not exactly congruent to, say, the United States. It was created explicitly to be a homeland for Jews... those already there, and those who wished to immigrate from where ever. Israel is not a theocracy by any stretch of the imagination, anymore than the United States was a theocracy for have Sunday Blue Laws. It is true that some groups would like to see more Bible-based laws enforced, but that has no not occurred. Mudcatters have a problem with the thought of that happening, but have no problem with a score or more of countries which are Islamic Republics and dictatorships which lean heavily on Shaaria Law. Several of those countries are creating far more worldwide problems than Israel has ever done or could ever do to Palestineans, but there is no call to dismantle Iraq, Iran etc. Only Israel! The so-called single state solution would, within a generation or two, dismantle the work of both the League of Nations and the United Nations, and destroy the concept of a Jewish Homeland. Of course, that could even come more quickly if a Grand Mufti or Imam should declare a pogrom (Jihad) against Jewish citizenry.

So, I have reached the following conclusions:
--If you blame Israel and only Israel (and throw in the USA) for the ills of Palestineans or the Middle East,
--If you consistently claim Israel is not a democratic country,
--If you deny the attachment of the Jewish people to ancient Israel,
--If you deny the attachment of Diaspora Jews to the population of ancient Jews,
--If you deny the right of the United Nations to ordain Israel, and only Israel among all the countries created since World War II,
--If you think Israel has forfeited the right to be a Jewish nation,
--If you support a 'single state' solution to end the Israel/Arab confict,
--Then claiming you are not anti-Semitic does not make it so. It just makes you un-self aware at best, or a dissembler at worst.

John on the Sunset Coast


10 Jun 10 - 01:12 PM (#2924717)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

CarolC: TerraSantaLibera (http://www.terrasantalibera.org) is a site where you can often read articles by Angela Lano, together with The Protocols of the Elders of Zion; where they recommend books such as Il Martirio di Padre Tommaso per mano Giudaica (The martyrdom of Father Thomas at a Jewish hand); with medieval texts against the Jews; articles against the abortion, equalized to a murder; Christian crosses etc.

Yes, Roberto. I already have seen that site, and I have seen the protocols there and I have seen the presence of some of her writing there. Now please show me some evidence that she is a aware of her writings appearing on that site, or that if she is aware of it, that she approved of it, or that she shares any of their ideology or beliefs. I have not seen any of that evidence yet.


Angela Lano is also the Director of infopal.it.

This is the only organization that I have seen her acknowledge being a part of. If you can produce any evidence that she was also actively participating in, and in agreement with the TerraSantaLibera organization, please present it here. I have repeatedly asked you to present these evidences. You have consistently failed to do so. I have not condemned Ms. Lano yet because you are refusing to provide evidence that I should. When you provide evidence that she is sympathetic with anti-Semites, or that she is an anti-Semite herself, then I will condemn her anti-Semitism. But not before that.


10 Jun 10 - 01:16 PM (#2924722)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

John,

You are approaching this from a logical point, based on reality. This is where you are wrong: Many here have no interest in reality, just their own view ( shall I say propaganda) about what THEY think should have happened.

I find it interesting that those who give the right to Palestinans to return after fleeing during a war deny that right to Jews.

And I doubt many have read the 1921 and 1923 treaties ( which set the last boundries that the Arab states accepted) that they ignore in asking for the 1967 boundries, which the Arab nations did not accept.


10 Jun 10 - 01:21 PM (#2924729)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

John on the Sunset Coast, I would characterize you as being supremacist on the basis that you support privileging one ethnic/religious group over all others in Israel. So you're really not in a position to be pointing fingers at others for any reason. And any accusations of anti-Semitism from you are not credible and are hypocritical.

If you don't support equal rights for everyone, and if you support one set of rules for one religion/ethnicity, and another set of rules for other religions/ethnicities, you are a racists and a supremacist.

It is not anti-Semitic for those of us who are paying for what Israel is doing to focus on that. And you are lying when you say that we focus on Israel to the exclusion of all other countries who are also committing human rights abuses. This thread is about Israel. Those of us who are criticizing Israel in this thread also criticize other governments in other threads. You need to paint us as anti-Semites because you are trying to defend the indefensible, and you are supporting racism and supremacism.


10 Jun 10 - 01:24 PM (#2924734)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

By the way, more and more video is being released by people who were able to smuggle it out undetected.


10 Jun 10 - 01:25 PM (#2924735)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

CarolC: Angela Lano has her stuff on an anti-semite site against her will? Is the director of another site that its founder leaves after a lifetime because it has become full of too many anti-semite and has nothing to do with that? Your faith is too strong (and blind).


10 Jun 10 - 01:41 PM (#2924755)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

CarolC: Angela Lano has her stuff on an anti-semite site against her will? Is the director of another site that its founder leaves after a lifetime because it has become full of too many anti-semite and has nothing to do with that? Your faith is too strong (and blind).

Hate sites use material without permission from the authors all the time. You said he left because of anti-Semitism. I want to see some evidence of that before I form a judgment, and if so, I also want to see evidence that Ms. Lano is one of the people he objected to.

I am not operating on faith at all in this context. I have not formed a judgment one way or another. But I have seen far too many specious and venal accusations of anti-Semitism (some of them even leveled at me) being used to falsely discredit people and silence dissent, to accept such accusations without evidence. You show me the evidence and I will join you in your condemnations of Ms. Lano. Until then, I refuse to form any judgments one way or the other.


10 Jun 10 - 02:01 PM (#2924775)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I find it interesting that those who give the right to Palestinans to return after fleeing during a war deny that right to Jews.

beardedbruce, you have repeatedly asked me if I support the right of Jews to return to where they were fleeing from during war, and I have repeatedly said that I do. So if you are including me in this blanket statement, you are lying.


10 Jun 10 - 02:14 PM (#2924786)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

So Jews driven out in 79CE get to go back to Israel?

Yes or no:


10 Jun 10 - 02:23 PM (#2924789)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

I find it interesting that those who give the right to Palestinians to return after fleeing during a war deny that right to Jews.

Who on earth is supposed to have said that, anyway?

After 2,000 years that right of return is somewhat reduced, as it would be for any of us, in respect of wherever it was our ancestors were living at that time.


10 Jun 10 - 02:24 PM (#2924794)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

In this video, you can hear shots coming from the boats, and you can hear explosions and impacts coming from the helicopter before the Israels have descended and while they are descending. This is a short clip from an hour long video that was smuggled out by one of the passengers. She is releasing the rest of the video at the UN today...

http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2010/6/10/the_images_they_didnt_want_seen_video_and_photographs_from_on_board_the_mavi_marmara


10 Jun 10 - 02:27 PM (#2924797)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

So Jews driven out in 79CE get to go back to Israel?

Yes or no:


Sure, as long as they are there as equals with all of the other people there and that all of the people there are subject to the same laws and rules, and that anyone else who wants to live there can as well, regardless of their religion or ethnicity.


10 Jun 10 - 02:30 PM (#2924800)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

"Sure, as long as they are there as equals with all of the other people there and that all of the people there are subject to the same laws and rules, and that anyone else who wants to live there can as well, regardless of their religion or ethnicity. "

Since NONE of those conditions apply to the Arab nations that the Jews were driven out of in 1948, shouldn't Israel be held to the same standards that the Arab countires have imposed?


10 Jun 10 - 02:39 PM (#2924808)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Since NONE of those conditions apply to the Arab nations that the Jews were driven out of in 1948, shouldn't Israel be held to the same standards that the Arab countires have imposed?

Show me some proof of this, beardedbruce, and not from a zionist website. It has to come from websites that represent the governments you are accusing.


10 Jun 10 - 02:56 PM (#2924826)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll

"If you blame Israel and only Israel (and throw in the USA) for the ills of Palestineans or the Middle East,"
Israel is a highly militarised, terrorist state which has persistently used its military might in pursuit of an expansionist policy.
Through its persistant disregard for human rights and international law it has done more damage to the Jewish people than has been done by any dedicated anti-Semite organisation since the end of W.W.2.
"If you deny the attachment of the Jewish people to ancient Israel..."
This is basing the existance of a state on a 2000 year old myth and, carried to its logical conclusion, would justify any demand to returning of the USA to the Native Americans, New Zealand to the Maori people and Australia to...... where would you like to call a halt?
"If you consistently claim Israel is not a democratic country,"
The Nazi Party were elected democratically - how you attain power is only a part of the picture, how you use it when you have it is what counts.
The only anti Semitism to appear on this thread has been in the imaginations of those spineless enough to resort to the blackmail tactic of "agree with me or I'll call you an anti-Semite".
You have my gratitude - reading your prescriptive list explains perfectly where Israel is coming from.
The whingeing and snivelling about paint-bomb guns, fire works or who fired first is totally beside the point. Israeli troops committed an act of piracy on the high seas, they killed (possibly executed) unarmed or poorly armed non combatants who were well within their legal rights in offering resistance.
In the past they have been guilty of slaughtering civilians, buldozing homes, using chemical weapons and ghettoising citizens in order to annex their land - war crimes, no less.
I suppose this make me (along with the vast majority of the democratic, free-thinking world) an anti-Semite.
Jim Carroll


10 Jun 10 - 03:14 PM (#2924838)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

With all this stuff about how canisters and such like fired at people aren't anything to worry about,here is a reminder of a story about something like that which has been posted in this thread, but hasn't got too much attention in the media - Peace activist, Emily Henochowicz, loses eye after being shot with tear gas

"Emily was "hit in the face with a tear gas projectile fired directly at her by an Israeli soldier during the demonstration at Qalandiya checkpoint today." Sören Johanssen, a Swedish activist standing beside Henochowicz, reported that, "They fired many canisters at us in rapid succession. One landed on either side of Emily, then the third one hit her in the face.""

Of course she didn't get hit by a bullet, so that's all right...


10 Jun 10 - 03:36 PM (#2924866)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll

"Sling shots with pebbles are also as dangerous as paintballs."
But not as dangerous as "tazer gun, Uzi sub-machine guns, Glock handguns" which the Israelis were carrying.
Still deciding how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Jim Carroll


10 Jun 10 - 03:58 PM (#2924886)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Carol, I understand that you disbelieve the Israelis, but why do you accept everything from the other side without question?

I disbelieve everything that is said by the Israelis because they are always proven to be lying and because they refuse to release the rest of the video evidence. And I believe the people on the flotilla because I am a part of their movement and I know what they are about.


The new video. It shows no firing of anything from the boats.
No sign of anything coming at the ship, and passengers do not appear concerned. We see no injured people at all.


You can hear the sounds of things hitting the ship. You can also see one exploded paint pellet on a wall on the ship. You can hear many sounds of explosions and things hitting the ship that are coming from the helicopters. You can see many injured passengers. You don't see them before the Israelis landed because the person with the camera was not in the area that was being fired upon. At least not in the part that we saw. We don't know what is on the rest of the video.


We do see the ladder with red liquid running down the bulkhead, and the sound of probable shots. Can we be sure it is in time sequence?
You would challenge that from the other side.


I have no doubt that experts could make this determination. I would encourage the people involved to have the video examined by experts.


There is no sign of shooting from the helicopter.

You can hear the sound of shooting from the helicopter.


The commentary in your first video spoke of nothing but cannisters. No explosions or incoming fire mentioned. Why not?

Keith, as you can see, the correspondents are not on the part of teh ship where the shooting is taking place. They are not able to take the live feed there for several reasons, one being that the equipment is set up there were they are. And events are happening too fast for them to be able to keep up.


My boat video must be pre landing because the boat is not visible in the landing sequence, and would be.
The firecrackers/stun grenades explode in the boat. There is no evidence that they came from the boat, and it makes no sense. Likewise the plates.


Keith, your video shows only a very small portion of the water next to the ship. To think that you know what is outside the field of vision of the camera is pretty ridiculous. The passengers said that they were throwing back into the boats things that had been fired into the ship.

I am calling for all video evidence to be released by the government of Israel. You can not say that we don't know it exists, because the existence of smuggled footage proves that the journalists are telling the truth when they say they were filming and photographing what was happening, and that it was confiscated. That, and the Israeli government has been selectively releasing some of the footage itself, so it can't deny it exists.

I call for all of the video evidence to be released and to be examined by experts. On the other hand, you have already decided that the government of Israel is telling the truth even though they have already been caught in numerous lies and have been forced to retract many of the things they've said about the flotilla members and about what happened that night. You are willing to accept, without question, the word of proven liars. I am demanding that all of the evidence be released and examined by experts.

Between the two of us, I am the only one who is interested in the truth.


Re. Indian Ocean pirates, they could fly all the flags in the world and they would still be boarded without asking their permission.

This is speculation, and not fact. Please cite to me the law that would permit such boardings, and what criteria govern what ships that sail under the flag of a country may be forcibly boarded and for what reason.


10 Jun 10 - 04:02 PM (#2924891)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

And to follow up McGrath's post, here is video evidence that Israeli soldiers deliberately aim for the head with their tear gas cannisters...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jv1DZNn39O8


10 Jun 10 - 04:02 PM (#2924892)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

1000


10 Jun 10 - 04:30 PM (#2924915)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Carol, I understand that you disbelieve the Israelis, but why do you accept everything from the other side without question?

I would also like to say that every time the government of Israel has been proven to be lying, the proof has vindicated what the passengers were saying. So not only does the government of Israel have a proven track record of lying, the passengers on the flotilla have a proven track record of telling the truth.


10 Jun 10 - 04:36 PM (#2924924)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

In the Jerusalem Dispatch on June 1st it was reported that
"The soldiers thought they would encounter Bilin-style violence"

What is Bilin?

"Bil'in is a Palestinian village that is struggling to exist. It is fighting to safeguard its land, its olive trees, its resources… its liberty.

By annexing close to 60% of Bil'in land for Israeli settlements and the construction of Israel's separation wall, the state of Israel is strangling the village. Every day it destroys a bit more, creating an open air prison for Bil'in's inhabitants.
Supported by Israeli and international activists, Bil'in residents peacefully demonstrate every Friday in front of the "work-site of shame".
And every Friday the Israeli army responds with violence, both physically and psychologically"

Bilin a village of Palestine

On the 17th of April last year Bassem Abu Rahme was killed in Bil'in
He was shot with new kind of tear gaz canisters (The Rocket). He was shot in his chest which lead to his death immediately.
The high velocity tear-gas projectile, labeled "40 mm bullet, special/long range" in Hebrew has also critically injured American national, Tristan Anderson at a demonstration in Ni'lin on 13 March 2009 when he was shot in the head from 60 meters.

He participated in the weekly protest and was standing in the other side of the wall, and was shouting at the soldiers "we are in a nonviolent protest, there are kids and internationals" he couldn't continue his scrim and was shot. He was transferred to Ramallah governmental hospital, but he was dead

Basem Abu Rahme is the 18th individual to be killed by Israeli forces during a demonstration against the Wall.


10 Jun 10 - 04:48 PM (#2924933)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

CarolC: you play the lawyer with Angela Lano & Friends and had no problem in calling me a racist, laughable and very stupid insult. Think about what would you have said, you and your fiends, if I had labelled you as Hamas Press Office, but you had no problem in calling me a member of the hasbara brigade. Reciprocity is the foundation of every relationship.


10 Jun 10 - 05:12 PM (#2924942)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

If it were possible to have a filter to remove the person to person skirmishing, this would,be a much shorter thread, but a much more meaningful one.

The best thing to do when we feel attacked or insulted, rightly or wrongly, fairly or unfairly, is to ignore it, and carry on with dealing with the actual issues.


10 Jun 10 - 05:19 PM (#2924949)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

Summary of this argument....errr contridiction.....errr, abuse thread:

SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOB, YOU TIT! YOUR TYPE MAKES ME PUKE! YOU VACUOUS TOFFEE-NOSED MALODOROUS PERVERT!!!
Yes, but I came here for an argument!!
OH! Oh! I'm sorry! This is abuse!

Oh look, this isn't an argument!
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
It's just contradiction!
No it isn't!
It IS!
It is NOT!
You just contradicted me!
No I didn't!
You DID!
No no no!
You did just then!
Nonsense!
I came here for a good argument!
AH, no you didn't, you came here for an argument!
An argument isn't just contradiction.
Well! it CAN be!
No it can't!
An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
No it isn't!
Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.
Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position!
Yes but it isn't just saying 'no it isn't'.
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
Yes it is!
No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
It is NOT!
It is!
Not at all!
It is Not

Quotes:Thanks to the Monty Python Argument Clenic team (AKA, "Mudcat New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid" Argument Clenic)

Just an observation, not an argument, contradiction or abuse statement :)


10 Jun 10 - 05:21 PM (#2924952)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

CarolC: you play the lawyer with Angela Lano & Friends and had no problem in calling me a racist, laughable and very stupid insult. Think about what would you have said, you and your fiends, if I had labelled you as Hamas Press Office, but you had no problem in calling me a member of the hasbara brigade. Reciprocity is the foundation of every relationship.

Roberto, you're the one who set the tone. I'm not playing lawyer with Angela Lano. The charge of anti-Semitism is regularly used by people defending Israel who want to discredit people in order to silence them. We can see quite a bit of it right here in this thread. If this wasn't such a regular practice, people like me might be a bit less skeptical when we see people making that accusation.

So let me ask you this, then... do you support maintaining a Jewish majority in Israel, or do you support the right of the Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed from their homes during the Nakba to return to their areas of origin?


10 Jun 10 - 05:23 PM (#2924955)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

"They board the vessel, take it to Israel, and then deliver the cargo to Gaza themselves."

NO Keith they do NOT!

They have stated unabiguously that NONE of the banned and desperately required items like cenent and batteries for wheelchairs will be allowed in

If you want to know what Israelis can do with all the cement that WILL NOT be going to Gaza - take a look at a video on yopu tube of illegal settlers pouring cement into springs used by Palestinians!


10 Jun 10 - 05:24 PM (#2924956)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Lox, Carol and Jim, you just know that Israelis can only do bad things, and close your mind to any other explanation however obvious.

If the Israelis weren't so regularly caught lying and committing all kinds of libels on other people, we might see it differently.

The government of Israel has repeatedly been caught lying about the people in the flotilla and about what happened. If they weren't doing bad things, they would have no reason to lie.


10 Jun 10 - 05:26 PM (#2924957)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

The sounds on the new video soundtrack are absolutely not identifiable as gunfire.

I'm willing to let an expert make that determination because I care about the truth. How about you?


10 Jun 10 - 05:27 PM (#2924958)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"Lox ... you just know that Israelis can only do bad things"

I see that Keith A, famous impartial critic, has run out of actual arguments, so he is reduced to:

1: Pigeon holing his opponents into one lump.

2: Inventing opinons for them collectively (in this case one I don't hold)

3: Reasserting his version of the 'facts' despite serious doubt beinbg cast on them.


Your stubbornesss and obtuseness bely your lack of neutrality Keith.

Your personal slander marks you out as being full of shit.


10 Jun 10 - 05:30 PM (#2924962)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Yes, that's a good point, Lox. The way he phrased it really doesn't apply to any of us.


10 Jun 10 - 05:37 PM (#2924967)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

They board the vessel, take it to Israel, and then deliver the cargo to Gaza themselves.

They have done that every time, and made it known that was to happen this time."


That just is not true. Any deliveries are only made after the Israelis have removed a whole range of essential items, according to some insane list of what isn't allowed. Medical equipment, building materials - even stuff like jam and various types of sweets. Though I see that they have now offered to allow jam and potato chips and a few items like this into Gaza, having banned them for years...
................

It is nonsense to call the behaviour of people resisting an attack by armed intruders "unprovoked violence". If an Israeli boat were boarded in international waters by an armed force of opponents would any sane person describe it as "unprovoked violence" if they laid about the intruders with everything they had to hand?

It would have been more prudent of the protesters to hold off and maintain non-violent discipline in face of the attack - though the history of non-violence, in Israel, as well as in places like India in the time of Gandhi, apartheid South Africa, the Jim Crow American South and elsewhere is that you can still get killed, especially if you are making any progress.


10 Jun 10 - 05:43 PM (#2924975)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

you just know that Israelis can only do bad things

This has no basis in reality. I would say that the Israeli government only does bad things, and the evidence supports this assertion. That is hardly the same as saying that all Israelis can only do bad things, and your having said it that way shows your own bias.

and close your mind to any other explanation however obvious.

I am calling for the release of all evidence. You are the one who wants to suppress the rest of the evidence. So that would make you complicit in Israel's lies. Under the circumstances, it's quite obvious that you are the one with the closed mind. If your mind was open, you would also wish to see the release of the rest of the evidence.


10 Jun 10 - 05:45 PM (#2924978)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

"It would have been more prudent of the protesters to hold off and maintain non-violent discipline in face of the attack"

This is what the cammandoes - at least some of them rather young men from the reports - had been led to expect

A 'Bilin style' protest where non violent protesters like 29 year old Bassem Abu Rahme are killed


10 Jun 10 - 05:46 PM (#2924979)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

More passenger testimony


10 Jun 10 - 06:07 PM (#2924996)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

That's what I meaqnt, Emma. Effective non-violent protesters can expect to meet violence, including lethal violence. And the more effective they become, the greater the violence they will meet.


10 Jun 10 - 06:17 PM (#2925009)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

But Kevin, how many people have heard of Bassem Abu Rahme or Tristan Anderson or Emily Henochowicz or the others not 'martyrs' just young people standing up for what they believe


10 Jun 10 - 06:19 PM (#2925014)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I just saw an announcement that a flotilla that is supposed to be leaving Lebanon for Gaza in a week or two may have as many as 50 ships.


10 Jun 10 - 06:31 PM (#2925028)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

How many people can remember the names of pretty well anyone killed in any sort of conflict? Non-violent struggle is no different. Non-violence isn't about being safe, it's about achieving a kind of victory that violence cannot achieve.


10 Jun 10 - 06:35 PM (#2925032)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Weird - keiths post in which he admitted to having no more arguments has disappeared.

Oh well.

I read it while it was there so I will take his admission with me.



I think I've had enough of this headache.


It's utterly exhausting!


10 Jun 10 - 07:39 PM (#2925074)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

It certainly is, Lox.

I just fully realized what Keith is trying to pull over on us, too. He is telling us to believe the people who are hiding evidence and he's telling us not to believe the people who are saying they want all of the evidence to be seen by the public, and that to believe the people who are hiding evidence is being open minded, and to believe the people who are saying they want all of the evidence shown to the public is closed minded. Interesting mental equation there.


10 Jun 10 - 08:11 PM (#2925092)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

More footage with much better sound and resolution...

http://gazaflotilla.delegitimize.com/statements/activist-statements/exclusive-16-minute-footage-from-mavi-marmari/


10 Jun 10 - 08:16 PM (#2925099)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""It is difficult for me to think that a person with a normal ability to perceive the reality could actually be convinced that a one state solution would have any chance to lead to peace (and democracy) in that area.""

Let us assume for a moment that you are right about this.

So, the two state solution is the better way to go (hypothetically).

That would require that each side remain within its own territory.

With me so far?......GOOD!

Then tell me this. Which side is occupying part of the other side's territory, and has been for over fifty years.

I'll giv you a clue.........ITS NAME IS ISRAEL!

Don T.


10 Jun 10 - 08:16 PM (#2925100)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Joe Offer

Note to Keith -
Please see the first message in this thread. I had to prohibit Guest posts in this thread because we had some troublesome ones. I deleted a number of posts from you because you weren't logged in.
If you need help logging in, contact me by e-mail.
-Joe Offer-
joe@mudcat.org


10 Jun 10 - 08:18 PM (#2925101)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

"I just fully realized what Keith is trying to pull over on us, too"

I'm just wondering if the last few posts allegedly from Keith were or if some prat is playing silly buggers - heaven's knows it wouldn't be the first time an identity has been abused


10 Jun 10 - 08:24 PM (#2925104)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

In this last video, we can quite clearly hear shots being fired before the Israelis have come down from the helicopters, and what I had thought was paint on a wall from pellets in the lower quality version, is actually blood dripping down from a hatch (before the Israelis have come down from the helicopter).


10 Jun 10 - 08:54 PM (#2925116)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

I get extremely fed up of hearing accusations of Anti Semitism levelled at anyone who dares criticise the actions of the Israeli government, or the IDF.

When will apologists for these thugs realise that the Israeli government and the IDF are institutionally Anti Semitic in their hatred of Palestinian Arabs..

Both Jews and Arabs are Semites, so the concept that only hatred of Jews is Anti Semitic, is, to put it bluntly, arrant bloody nonsense.

Don T.


11 Jun 10 - 01:08 AM (#2925209)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Israeli document: Gaza blockade isn't about security

By Sheera Frenkel | McClatchy Newspapers

JERUSALEM — As Israel ordered a slight easing of its blockade of the Gaza Strip Wednesday, McClatchy obtained an Israeli government document that describes the blockade not as a security measure but as "economic warfare" against the Islamist group Hamas, which rules the Palestinian territory.

Israel imposed severe restrictions on Gaza in June 2007, after Hamas won elections and took control of the coastal enclave after winning elections there the previous year, and the government has long said that the aim of the blockade is to stem the flow of weapons to militants in Gaza.

Last week, after Israeli commandos killed nine volunteers on a Turkish-organized Gaza aid flotilla, Israel again said its aim was to stop the flow of terrorist arms into Gaza.

However, in response to a lawsuit by Gisha, an Israeli human rights group, the Israeli government explained the blockade as an exercise of the right of economic warfare.

"A country has the right to decide that it chooses not to engage in economic relations or to give economic assistance to the other party to the conflict, or that it wishes to operate using 'economic warfare,'" the government said.

McClatchy obtained the government's written statement from Gisha, the Legal Center for Freedom of Movement, which sued the government for information about the blockade. The Israeli high court upheld the suit, and the government delivered its statement earlier this year.

Sari Bashi, the director of Gisha, said the documents prove that Israel isn't imposing its blockade for its stated reasons, but rather as collective punishment for the Palestinian population of Gaza. Gisha focuses on Palestinian rights.

(A State Department spokesman, who wasn't authorized to speak for the record, said he hadn't seen the documents in question.)

The Israeli government took an additional step Wednesday and said the economic warfare is intended to achieve a political goal. A government spokesman, who couldn't be named as a matter of policy, told McClatchy that authorities will continue to ease the blockade but "could not lift the embargo altogether as long as Hamas remains in control" of Gaza.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/06/09/95621/israeli-document-gaza-blockade.html?mi_pluck_action=comment_submitted&qwxq=4681640#Comments_Container?storylink=addthis


11 Jun 10 - 01:43 AM (#2925219)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

Angela Lano signed a call in favour of the right of Robert Faurisson to deliver a lecture at Teramo University in 2007 (The Holocaust never happened, the gas chambers are an invention, and so on) and has often being protagonist of conferences together with characters that belong to the extreme right, fascist and nazi type, such as the scholar Claudio Mutti, linked with Franco Freda, the terrorist with responsibility in the Piazza Fontana Massacre (1969), Tiberio Graziani, a fascist scholar, etc.

But maybe CarolC prefers not to know these facts, and fancy a flotilla crew all composed by immaculate peace lovers.


11 Jun 10 - 01:46 AM (#2925221)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

What means "signed a call"?


11 Jun 10 - 01:54 AM (#2925222)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

I meant she made an appeal.


11 Jun 10 - 01:57 AM (#2925223)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

The deleted posts were mine.
Carol, I did not tell you to believe one side and not the other.
That is what you do now.
I advise you to believe nothing that is not supported, or is contradicted, by video evidence.
All my arguments are from the video evidence. That is why I have no more arguments. I have never repeated IDF propaganda, and I refuted their claim to have been attacked with stun grenades. You, believed the ridiculous story about them being thrown or fired up from boats and then thrown back.

The cargo was delivered to Gaza but last I heard Hamas refused it.
There is an arbitrary sounding list of prohibited items.
Israel regards itself as being at war with the Hamas state and justified in only allowing essentials.
All debatable, but everyone knows about it.
    Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
    From: GUEST,keith. - PM
    Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:13 PM

    Lox, Carol and Jim, you just know that Israelis can only do bad things, and close your mind to any other explanation however obvious.

    You might not think it legitimate to stop blockade runners, and it is a grey area, but everyone knows that is what israelis do.

    They board the vessel, take it to Israel, and then deliver the cargo to Gaza themselves.

    They have done that every time, and made it known that was to happen this time.

    And that actually is what happened.
    The only difference this time was that the protesters overwhelmed the boarding party with unprovoked violence. The lightly armed soldiers were at their mercy and subject to violence that could be expected to kill for 3 minutes until they shot some people.

    Then they took the ship to Israel and delivered the cargo to Gaza as usual.


    Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
    From: GUEST,keith - PM
    Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:20 PM

    The sounds on the new video soundtrack are absolutely not identifiable as gunfire.


    Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
    From: GUEST,keith - PM
    Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:42 PM

    Lox, yes, I have run out of arguments, until new evidence emerges.
    Carol, I expect to be proved right about the sounds, but we shall see and I will grovel if proved wrong.
    Lox, you might not agree with my statement about you three, but I think it fair because you, Lox, insisted that the cowering soldiers on the deck being clubbed by a gang weilding metal bars are being agressive, and their attackers are helpless victims.


11 Jun 10 - 02:10 AM (#2925227)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

But Keith, some of your arguments are not from the video evidence, but from the video lack of evidence. If you look at a video and say "there was no shooting until X happened" what you don't know is what happened before the start of the video clip that you saw. Was the beginning chopped off? Did they only start filming after they heard shots being fired? We don't know. You can't look at a piece of video and say what happened "first" until you know the history of the video and what came before it. And you certainly can't do that and claim your arguments are "from the video evidence".


11 Jun 10 - 02:34 AM (#2925231)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

But maybe CarolC prefers not to know these facts, and fancy a flotilla crew all composed by immaculate peace lovers.

If I preferred to not know them, why would I have asked you three or more times to show them to me?

Ok. I am very saddened that someone like Angela Lano was participating in the flotilla. Her presence there does not at all assist the cause of helping the Palestinians gain their freedom.


11 Jun 10 - 02:48 AM (#2925238)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Carol, I did not tell you to believe one side and not the other.
That is what you do now.


You told me I was being closed minded for not believing your version.

I advise you to believe nothing that is not supported, or is contradicted, by video evidence.

Actually, you have repeatedly done just that.

All my arguments are from the video evidence.

Except that they're not. A lot of your arguments you have even admitted are your belief and your opinion based on nothing other than what you think about things. Like for instance, whether or not pirate ships that fly under the flag of a country would be boarded in international waters.

That is why I have no more arguments.

You never really had any to begin with. Just a lot of wild speculation based on the lies that have been promoted by the government of Israel.

You, believed the ridiculous story about them being thrown or fired up from boats and then thrown back.

You have no evidence that this did not happen. You only have your opinion that it did not.

The cargo was delivered to Gaza but last I heard Hamas refused it.

I have been told by someone in Gaza, who made a special trip to the local Hamas office to ask them about it just for me, that Hamas are concerned that if they accept that aid from the government of Israel, people will accuse them of stealing some of it. They have good reason to be concerned about this, since both Israel and the US have used this tactic against them in the past. If Israel is sincere about ensuring that the people of Gaza get the aid that they stole from the flotilla, they can very easily hand it over to one or more of the many NGOs that operate in Gaza.

There is an arbitrary sounding list of prohibited items.
Israel regards itself as being at war with the Hamas state and justified in only allowing essentials.


As the Israeli government document that is discussed in the article in my last link shows, the blockade is an act of collective punishment (a war crime under the Geneva Conventions) in order to accomplish the political agenda of forcing Hamas out of office. As such, it is an illegal blockade, and the people on board the ships of the flotilla had every right under international law, to defend themselves and their ships.


11 Jun 10 - 03:04 AM (#2925242)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll

"Summary of this argument...."
If that is all that you have got from this discussion Ed - you haven't been listening.
There has been a great deal of detailed argument produced from both sides and an attempt to analyse it.
On the other hand there have been a number of unsubstantiated and dishonest accusations of racism (including your own) - which really belong at the top of your list.
Jim Carroll


11 Jun 10 - 03:19 AM (#2925248)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Carol and Mousethief,
If there had been firing before the landing, there should be evidence on the shipboard videos.
None of them show it happening or show the results except possibly that ladder scene.
The commentator would have referred to it in his rants against the Israelis. The people who keep rushing in with news of what the Israelis are doing all forget to mention that the Israelis are shooting at them. That is good evidence that there was no shooting.
Also, the soldiers did not all carry firearms.
As has been mentioned, Israeli soldiers usually do.


11 Jun 10 - 03:52 AM (#2925258)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Carol, your new video shows that the boat alongside was filmed well before the landings.
In one continuous take we see the helicopter, the side if the ship and distant boats.


11 Jun 10 - 03:52 AM (#2925259)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Blood, Keith. Dripping from the open hatch.


11 Jun 10 - 03:53 AM (#2925260)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Keith, there wasn't only one boat along side the ship. There were many.


11 Jun 10 - 04:07 AM (#2925266)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Look, Keith, the passengers are all saying the same things. And they all want all of the video footage and still shots to be released. These are not stupid people. They wouldn't be calling for the video and still shots to be released if they wouldn't support what they have been saying. To think that they would do that is just silly. There is no reason to not believe them. The government of Israel has been caught in numerous lies. They don't want the video and still shots to be released. There is every reason to not believe them.


11 Jun 10 - 05:38 AM (#2925286)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Something everyone here seems to have missed which amazes me is that as the camera is showing us the blood on the ladder, it pans rouns and films a red dot moving around on the deck which is clearly from a lazer sighting on a machine gun.

There is much attention drawn to this lazer sighting.

All of the above is filmed before troops land.


11 Jun 10 - 05:46 AM (#2925291)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"I refuted their claim to have been attacked with stun grenades."

Ok - The Israeli's claim they fired Stun Grenades.

The Ships passengers claim that stun grenades wre fired on board.

And There is a video of a stun grenade going off, which both Israelis and Palestinians claim is a stun grenade, except that they dispute its source.


But Keith has looked at the video and determined that it is a firework.


I think Keith should testify at the investigation as none of the witnesses on any side have a clue what really happened, only Keith does.


11 Jun 10 - 05:50 AM (#2925292)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"Also, the soldiers did not all carry firearms.
As has been mentioned, Israeli soldiers usually do."

How do you know?


11 Jun 10 - 05:57 AM (#2925297)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

At 2:08 in the film you can clearly see an Israeli trooper sitting with his legs hanging out the door of the helicopter and a machine gun at the ready on his knee and pointing down at the ship. He appears to have no gloves on his hands and is not preparing to abseil down as both hands are occupied with the gun.


11 Jun 10 - 06:08 AM (#2925303)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

The sequence with the lazer sighting is from 1:32 to 1:50, interrupted briefly by a scandanavian journalist tellling the camera what is happening.

The discovery of the blood, coinciding with the sound of distant guns, followed by the sight of a lazer machine gun sight and the image of an Israeli soldier sitting with his machine gun poised, coincides with the testimony of the passengers that they were fired upon before the troopers landed on the ship.

The sound of gun fire on board the ship after the troops have landed is much clearer.

The people going below deck with the wounded are not in any more of a panic than the journalists ducking behind the lifeboats during the initial discovery of the blood.


The case is becoming more and more compelling, especially when combined wth Carols point that The Israelis are covering up while those who were on board are trying to make things more transparent.


11 Jun 10 - 07:16 AM (#2925339)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.

I've been trying to track down something I read last year in the Guardian, where one of the women in the cabinet of the UK mentioned (as if it were understood to be a good thing) about the Royal Navy being involved in supporting the blockade. All I can find at the moment is odd mentions about helping to make sure weapons are not imported, which I have not been able to open, so I can't get involved in writing to the new government about their position on this.

Penny


11 Jun 10 - 07:17 AM (#2925340)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.

Yet.

Penny


11 Jun 10 - 07:25 AM (#2925341)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

I made a mistake with the sighting of the Machine gun on the soldiers knee - I retract that observation.

On the other hand, I noted that the Israeli Soldiers who were brought downstairs on the video weree carried with exactly the same care as the wounded passengers were by those carying them.


11 Jun 10 - 07:56 AM (#2925353)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

The world was duped

By Miriam Ziv, Citizen Special June 11, 2010

The international outrage that arose immediately following the Israeli navy's recent interception of a Gaza-bound flotilla was a sad reminder of the hypocrisy Israel faces on a constant basis.

It would seem the greater part of the international media chose to ride the slander wave and for a few days at least, showed reticence in acknowledging this "peace mission" was actually a political stunt aimed at manipulating the world. Many journalists, sadly, abandoned their duties to search for the truth. Instead, they fuelled international outrage with rushed judgments and exaggerations.

The truth is spreading however. The situation has become more transparent, and the peaceful interception of the Rachel Corrie ship last week has, in concrete terms, exposed the difference between a humanitarian peace mission led by civilians and a violent mission led by hostile extremists. Last week, it was as if these words were completely interchangeable.

Despite the fact international coverage of the event has become a bit more balanced, the extremist nature of the organizers of the flotilla, as well as of some of the passengers on board, remains overlooked in many circles.

Leading the organizations participating in the aid flotilla was the Turkish organization IHH. The IHH, under the guise of an Islamic charity organization, plays a central role in terrorist recruitment and financing. Outlawed by the state of Israel in 2008, the IHH was also heavily scrutinized by the Turkish government, which first expressed concerns about the group in 1997. The office of the organization in Istanbul was searched and several activists arrested. Further inspection into what was found in the office revealed IHH members' plans to take part in jihadist activities in Afghanistan, Bosnia and Chechnya. In recent years, the IHH has assisted Hamas with its propaganda campaign, as well as its armed struggle.

Five of the passengers were also found by the Israeli government to be active terror operatives, some providing direct financial support to al-Qaeda and others to Hamas.

The Middle East Media Research Institute has released footage of statements made by the head of the IHH Turkish Islamist organization, Bulent Yildirim, who in a speech delivered in Gaza in 2009, glorified martyrdom. The Israel Defence Forces released a video shot from the Mavi Marmara in which a passenger was heard discussing his desire to become a martyr.

Sadly, the demonization of Israel that has been reinforced by this incident has been a major distraction to the world which was really the flotilla's ultimate goal. Arab and Muslim populations, for example, are being manipulated into supporting the forceful dictatorships that rule over them, thereby forgetting the state of stagnancy they find themselves in.

What we are faced with is a campaign to spread Islamic fundamentalism around the world. Those who have participated in the global support for this flotilla have, knowingly or unknowingly, also helped to embolden Hamas and other terrorist organizations.

Much scarier than the confounding of words is the complete reversal of values by the international community. This voyage is not only part of an attempt to deny Israel's right to defend itself, it is also part of an orchestrated attempt to threaten western values, and this is not something the world should be so naive about. Extremist Muslim leaders have time and time again publicly stated that Islam would eventually take over, and the duping of the world is only part of their master plan.

Those who choose to unfairly attack Israel and isolate it for defending itself against terrorist threats, seem to be forgetting one crucial thing: "Israel's struggle," as the Spanish journalist Pilar Rahola wrote, "is the struggle of the world."

Miriam Ziv is Israel's ambassador to Canada.
© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/world+duped/3139305/story.html#ixzz0qXpmQGiP


11 Jun 10 - 08:05 AM (#2925358)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll

It transpires that the decision to board the aid ships was taken on political and not defensive grounds. It's reported in this mornings Irish Times, quoting from the Jewish Haaretz newspaper, that Israeli foreign mininstry officials and military legal advisers warned the government not to intercept the aid flotilla.
Jim Carroll


11 Jun 10 - 08:07 AM (#2925361)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Lox, you may not see a soldier with a gun in the helicopter, but there would have been one covering the ship.
In the video of the boat alongside, a soldier can be seen taking aim but not firing.
That is what soldiers do.
If the laser spot is a gunsight, it is still not evidence that the ship was fired on.
That image below the hatch is the only evidence so far.
(Guest post was mine.)


11 Jun 10 - 08:12 AM (#2925363)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"The world was duped"

And your evidence is the opinion of the Israeli Ambassador to Canada?

Well no bias there then.


11 Jun 10 - 09:46 AM (#2925392)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

In the Jerusalem Post there is an interview with the 'hero' commando (likely to be awarded a valour medal) who claims to have personally killed 6 of the victims of the military attack on the flotilla.

His description includes the following statement aimed at depicting the activists on board as trained Al-Qaeda terrorists

"T. said he realized the group they were facing was well-trained and likely ex-military after the commandos threw a number of stun grenades and fired warning shots BEFORE rappelling down onto the deck.
"They didn't even flinch," he said. "Regular people would move"


11 Jun 10 - 09:53 AM (#2925396)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

Lox,

"which is clearly from a lazer sighting on a machine gun."


Big jump on your part- Shall I say that it is clearly a laser pointer from an IHH terrorist to make people think that the ship was being targeted- after all, I have the same evidence that YOU do- NONE.


11 Jun 10 - 10:06 AM (#2925409)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

This is BBC Newsnight Defence Editor disussing the incident with some of the erly images.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8718036.stm


11 Jun 10 - 11:11 AM (#2925429)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Well BB,

I Guess EmmaB's post wraps it up.

The Israeli commando in her article, the passengers on the ship, and the Video footage all corroborate each other.

Specifically, they all corroborate the allegation that shots were fired before the troopers descended, and they confirm the allegations that stun grenades were fired on board.


As those are the disputed facts on this thread I guess we can move on until information emerges which clearly refutes those allegations.


In the meantime, the IDF and the Israeli government have a lot of work to do to repaair their international reputation after issuing so much falsified evidence and after making so many discredited accusations.


11 Jun 10 - 11:26 AM (#2925442)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

"that shots were fired before the troopers descended"

WARNING shots, per the report.


11 Jun 10 - 12:07 PM (#2925468)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I had noticed the laser light, too, but I forgot to mention it. As Lox said, it's an important part of the evidence.


The blood scene is compelling Lox. Carol previously thought it might be paint.

In the lower quality video, I wasn't able to see the amount of it. I thought it was just a little bit of paint splattered on the wall. But after seeing the higher quality video, I can see that it's not spattered at all, and there's far more of it than would be the case if it was from paint pellets. There's a lot of it and it's dripping down from the open hatch.


Carol, I have only argued from the video evidence.

Except that you have not. As someone else pointed out, you are arguing from what is not in the video evidence rather than what is in the video evidence. And since you aren't in a position to know what you can't see or hear, you can't use that as evidence. But we do have the witness testimonies and so far all of the evidence that has turned up has corroborated their testimonies and discredited the Israeli version of events. On that basis, and because the passengers are calling for the release of all of the footage and still shots, we can make a reasonable judgment that the passengers are telling the truth, and the Israeli government is lying.


11 Jun 10 - 12:10 PM (#2925471)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

We do have the blood evidence, though, beardedbruce.


11 Jun 10 - 12:12 PM (#2925472)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

'Warning' shots or not - how do people on the ground know the difference? - shots WERE fired before by reports from the commandos AND the passengers before the attacking forces landed!

This fact is only in dispute from the official Israeli media handouts.

The information from the Turkish council of forensic medicine, which carried out the autopsies on the flotilla victims undermines, from the manner and intensity of the killings, Israel's insistence that its soldiers opened fire only in self defence and in response to attacks by the activists.

…Dr Haluk Ince, the chairman of the council of forensic medicine in Istanbul, said that in only one case was there a single bullet wound, to the forehead from a distant shot, while every other victim suffered multiple wounds…He added that all but one of the bullets retrieved from the bodies came from 9mm rounds.
Of this other round, he said: "It was the first time we have seen this kind of material used in firearms. It was just a container including many types of pellets usually used in shotguns. It penetrated the head region in the temple and we found it intact in the brain."

This also ties in with some eyewitness accounts that shots were fired from above resulting in one death.

A TRAGEDY OF ERRORS?

American liberal Jewish blogger Richard Silverstein who 'focuses on Israeli-Palestinian peace but includes commentary on U.S. politics, a world music mp3 blog, and other writing on Jewish life, literature, and culture' comments….


"After reading thousands of words of reporting and eyewitness accounts and watching videos released by both sides, I'm coming to the conclusion that what happened was that the Israeli commandos initially fired stun grenades and rubber bullets from helicopters in order to disperse the crowd on board before they landed.

Either some passengers interpreted this as an all out assault on the ship or they were spoiling for a fight.

The initial group of commandos were overrun, beaten and some dragged below decks either to be used as hostages or for medical attention. I speculate that when the IDF command saw their comrades overrun on board and discovered they perhaps had been taken hostage, an automatic, instinctual blood-lust took over.
They not only had to liberate their comrades at all costs, but they had to eliminate whatever threat they had faced.

So, I don't necessarily believe the IDF went into this planning for a massacre (though senior IDF officers were quoted in the Israeli press as saying they were prepared to use lethal force if necessary). But when events spun out of control and did not follow the scenario they'd planned, soldiers began acting on impulse and in completely disorganized fashion, which is fatal to a complicated operation such as this.
In the end, it WAS a massacre. A massacre caused by missed cues and obliviousness on both sides as to how aggressive behavior might be viewed by the other side. Of course, the preponderance of blame is on the Israeli side both because they initiated the encounter and because they had the overwhelming advantage in lethal force.
Lest anyone misunderstand, I am not trying to defend or whitewash the Israeli attack by understanding or explaining how it might've gone wrong.

I am coming closer and closer to believing that most of the nine (and perhaps as many as 15) were executed after they were subdued and wounded.

Tikun Olam

a Hebrew phrase that means "repairing the world." a practice should be followed NOT because it is required by Biblical law, but because it helps avoid social chaos.


11 Jun 10 - 12:14 PM (#2925473)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

The assertion that it's because the Rachel Corrie was peaceful that it didn't get attacked is a lie. The other ships and boats in the flotilla that were with the Mavi Marmara were also peaceful, but they were taken violently and not peacefully. Nobody that we know of was killed on them, but there was nothing peaceful about the way the Israelis behaved towards the passengers on those ships. The passengers were beaten, and shot with tasers and rubber bullets.


11 Jun 10 - 12:20 PM (#2925479)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Emma, the passengers report that they were being fired on with live rounds before the Israelis landed. We can see the blood dripping down from the open hatch before the Israelis landed. One of the journalists reported that he personally saw a man being shot from above in the top of his head, and he saw another journalist who was holding a camera taking footage being shot in the arm before the Israelis landed. The passengers are saying that the rest of the footage and still shots that the Israeli government is withholding will prove that they are telling the truth and the government of Israel is lying.

I don't think it really matters how many were killed before they landed and how many were killed after they landed. What matters is that the Israelis started killing before anything happened that they can claim necessitated acting in self-defense.


11 Jun 10 - 12:24 PM (#2925481)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I am very saddened to learn that Canada, a country I love, has become a fascist police state. The alternative rock group, The Pixies, has been put on Canada's list of "terrorist" organizations for refusing to perform in Israel. I think it might be time to boycott Canada.

http://australiansforpalestine.com/23813


11 Jun 10 - 12:37 PM (#2925490)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

The problem with Silverstein's account, EmmaB, is that the IDF are the single best-trained army in the world. The idea they would go off their heads and start shooting randomly because one of their member was taken belowdecks is very hard to swallow. And if that was the case, how could the commander who let this happen be awarded a medal of valor, rather than a court-martial? That would show extremely poor judgment and humanitarianism on the part of the Israeli state. Oh, wait.


11 Jun 10 - 12:43 PM (#2925493)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

"The Pixies, has been put on Canada's list of "terrorist" organizations"

I find this both jaw-dropping, and genuinely worrying for its implications concerning how the Canadian govt. may extend such a policy to other forms of completely peaceful protest.

What I wonder, are the ultimate logical consequences of the band being placed on a list of 'terrorist organisations'.

Meaning what *in theory* could happen to them, were members of such a 'terrorist organisation' to enter Canada. And thus by extension, anyone who might similarly peacefully protest and be similarly black-listed by the state as 'terrorists'.

The Pixies of course are not all that likely to suffer anything much from such a policy, but the implications for Canadian citizens themselves, is potentially extremely worrying.


11 Jun 10 - 12:50 PM (#2925494)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

Sorry about the thread drift btw. I don't mean to take the thread off track - but it does seem to say some very serious things about the current govt. in Canada. If I were a Canadian citizen, I'd be deeply concerned about the implications regards my civil liberties, freedom of expression and so-on.


11 Jun 10 - 12:52 PM (#2925495)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

CAN YOU MAKE AN INTERNATIONAL BOYCOTT ILLEGAL?
- The Land of Israel, a right-wing parliamentary lobby group committed to Jewish settlement of the West Bank seems to think you can…..

The Independent
Friday, 11 June 2010

"What do The Pixies, Elvis Costello, and Salam Fayyad, Prime Minister of the Palestinian Authority, have in common? A cursory glance might suggest not much yet all have deeply irked Israel.

When Mr Fayyad first embarked on a door-to-door campaign to persuade Palestinians to shun all products made by Jewish settlers, the Israeli public simply shrugged.
But when veteran crooner Costello peered into his conscience and pulled a scheduled appearance in Tel Aviv, Israelis sat up and took notice.

Embattled and increasingly isolated, a group of politicians are now proposing a bill that would outlaw boycotts against the Jewish State, both homegrown and international.

After last week's deadly raid on the flotilla, US rock band The Pixies cancelled their gig. Several other bands have followed suit, prompting Israeli music promoter Shuki Weiss to complain that performers are waging a form of "cultural terrorism".

Human rights activists, meanwhile, decried efforts by politicians to alienate those critical of Israel with new legislation.

"We have wild right-wing politicians presenting wild demagogic bills ... which create a very nasty public atmosphere," said Adam Keller, spokesman for Gush Shalom, an Israeli NGO that has joined calls for a boycott of settler-made goods. "If this is passed into law, it would mean a total breakdown between Israel and the PA."

If I... were a Palestinian, I would certainly join the boycott that is being imposed on the settlements and their products," wrote Yossi Sarid, a commentator in liberal Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz. "After all, it would not be human to expect me to buy my tombstone from people who were determined to bury my hopes for a good life and independence." "

However Rod Stewart and Elton John are still scheduled to perform in Israel later this year and meanwhile, authors Margaret Atwood and Amitav Ghosh, the joint recipients of an Israeli literary award, have ignored calls from activists to refuse the prize


11 Jun 10 - 01:04 PM (#2925499)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

"a group of politicians are now proposing a bill that would outlaw boycotts against the Jewish State, both homegrown and international."

I see, so refusing to be a part of something you personally find morally wrong, may potentially be criminalised. Well I guess it wouldn't be the first time... And it's not just worrying for Canadians then.


11 Jun 10 - 01:50 PM (#2925555)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

If there had been firing before the landing, there should be evidence on the shipboard videos. None of them show it happening

I have always understood that it is not very easy to get a photograph of a bullet in flight.


11 Jun 10 - 01:54 PM (#2925562)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

How would they enforce this ban? Would the US be obligated to deport me to Israel for trial if I don't buy something from Israel every week, say?


11 Jun 10 - 02:22 PM (#2925594)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

mouse thief,

The boycott calls for Palestinians to shun all products made in the Jewish settlements, most of which sit on expropriated Palestinian farmland and are regarded as illegal under international law.

Should the proposed bill pass in its current form, it would force boycotters to pay compensation to any settlers who claim their business had suffered.

If approved therefore, it could theoretically force the Palestinian Authority to pay thousands of dollars in compensation to Jewish businesses affected by the Fayyad-led boycott campaign,

Additionally, any foreign citizens calling for a boycott of Israel, would potentially be banned from visiting Israel for 10 years.


11 Jun 10 - 02:34 PM (#2925605)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

I'm not referring to the internal boycott (are Israeli laws enforced in the occupied territories? Then why can't they vote?), which I understand is a serious thing, but rather to the international.

Wouldn't boycotting Israel in part mean not visiting?

Outlawing offshore boycotts is a clutching-at-straws desperation move.


11 Jun 10 - 03:20 PM (#2925650)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

People in another thread have brought up the possibility that the item about the government of Canada putting The Pixies on their list of terrorist organizations is a hoax. I hope they are right about that.


11 Jun 10 - 04:58 PM (#2925734)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

Wouldn't a law in the US against calling on people to boycott Israel be in breach of your First Amendment?


11 Jun 10 - 06:04 PM (#2925779)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I think the bill that's being discussed is an Israeli bill, McGrath. As far as I know, Israel does not have a constitution.


11 Jun 10 - 06:17 PM (#2925786)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

CarolC: "As far as I know, Israel does not have a constitution."
Partially correct:

The Basic Laws of Israel (Hebrew: חוקי היסוד‎, ḥŭḳḳēi ha-yyǝsōd) are a key component of Israel's constitutional law. These laws deal with the formation and role of the principal state's institutions, and the relations between the state's authorities. Some of them also protect civil rights. While these laws were originally meant to be draft chapters of a future Israeli constitution, they are already used on a daily basis by the courts as a formal constitution. Israel currently functions according to an unwritten constitution consisting of both material constitutional law, based upon cases and precedents, and the provisions of these formal statutes. As of today, the Basic Laws do not cover all constitutional issues, and there is no deadline set to the completion of the process of merging them into one comprehensive constitution. There is no clear rule determining the precedence of Basic Rules over regular legislation, and in many cases this issue is left to the interpretation of the jurisdictional system.


11 Jun 10 - 06:21 PM (#2925788)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

One of the passengers who was kidnapped by the Israelis has reported that his credit card has been used since it was confiscated by the Israeli government. Nobody has yet had their passports returned, and they are concerned that the Israeli government will clone them and use them in the commission of murders as they did recently with some Irish and Australian passports.


11 Jun 10 - 06:23 PM (#2925792)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

There is no clear rule determining the precedence of Basic Rules over regular legislation, and in many cases this issue is left to the interpretation of the jurisdictional system.

All of which is another way of saying there is no constitution, but if you're lucky, they will pretend there is.


11 Jun 10 - 06:30 PM (#2925797)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke

And, of course, as BB has probably pointed out in the past*, Stalin's Russia had the most democratic constitution in the world.

*Most rightwing nutters do at some point.


11 Jun 10 - 06:31 PM (#2925798)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke

Oh, and that was 1066, which has to have some kind of significance.


11 Jun 10 - 06:46 PM (#2925811)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

Wasn't that when the native Anglo-saxons were overrun by Europeans, and lost their lands?

AFter driving out the Kelts, of course...


11 Jun 10 - 06:49 PM (#2925816)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

An Israeli law seeking to outlaw a boycott would probably greatly assist people trying to impose an anti-apartheid style boycott on Israel.


11 Jun 10 - 06:50 PM (#2925818)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I have received an email from the author of the piece about the Pixies being put on Canada's list of terrorist organizations. He said he was satirizing "the Canadian government's slavish devotion to Israel".

I am very relieved. I would be amused if I didn't find the situation he's satirizing so tragic.


11 Jun 10 - 07:05 PM (#2925827)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

BB posts opinions on some subjects that I find as far from my way of looking at the world as it is possible to get.

But he has also made some fundamentally important points in the past that I have not only agreed with, but that I have been moved by and that have changed my outlook in fundamental ways.

In addition, even in this thread, he has clearly shown himself to be a man of character and fairness.

Calling him a nutter is akin to describing a two dimesnional entity in three dimensonal terms - meaningless.

If it wasn't for the emptiness of such a comment it might be viewed as an unfair slur.


11 Jun 10 - 10:00 PM (#2925961)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Typo

"Calling him a nutter is akin to describing a two dimesnional entity in three dimensonal terms - meaningless."

Should have read:

"Calling him a nutter is akin to describing a three dimesnional entity in two dimensonal terms - meaningless."

I hope the tone of the post was clear enough for that to be plain.


11 Jun 10 - 10:15 PM (#2925966)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

According to the UN Human Development Index the people of Gaza live better off than people in Indonesia, India, Viet Nam, South Africa, Morocco, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Kenya, Sudan, Tanzania, Nigeria and Egypt. If there is no mass starvation, then why the aid flotillas? Why not send them to Egypt?

http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/


11 Jun 10 - 10:18 PM (#2925969)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6

Good question Bobad.

Can anyone provide an answer to this?

biLL


11 Jun 10 - 10:29 PM (#2925972)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

1. Aid goes to all these countries.

2. Being better off than the poorest in these counries is not hard.

I've been to about half of them and seen how horrendous the poverty is.

To say that Gaza is better off than them is not a claim to fame for Gaza.

3. The difference between Gaza and the countries you have listed is that Aid is not allowed in to Gaza in sufficient quantities.

There are no restrictions on Building materials, toys, meat, school books etc etc in the countries you have listed

The UN also reports that 75% of essential goods goin in to Gaza are smuggled from egypt. (link provided earlier in thread)

So the problem in Gaza is the Blockade.

The solution to the humanitarian crisis in Gaza is for the blockade to be challenged.


11 Jun 10 - 10:33 PM (#2925974)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Because they live in the world's biggest (open air) prison. The majority of them are dependent on foreign aid and food assistance to live (and they would rather be allowed to take care of themselves), because the blockade has completely crushed their economy. Because many of them are still living in tents since the massacre that Israel committed in Gaza in the winter of '08/'09 (that's more than a year after the massacre). Because all of their civil infrastructure was destroyed by Israel so they don't have the ability to process their raw sewage, and they have to dump it into the sea, and doing that is killing all of the fish (what's left of them) in the tiny little patch of water that they can fish in without getting shot by the Israeli terrorists.

Because their ability to generate electricity was severely crippled by the Israeli terrorists and they have to rely on generators to get electricity a lot of the time and the generators are killing people. Because the Israeli terrorists don't allow in a lot of life-saving medicines and people are dying because of it. And most Gazans aren't allowed to leave Gaza to get needed medical treatment elsewhere, and people are dying because of it. Because Israel doesn't allow them to have incubators and babies are dying because of it. Because while they're not starving to death, they are severely malnourished.

Because children aren't allowed to have paper, pencils, crayons, school books and other things they need to get a good education so they can become self-sufficient adults.

Because the Israeli terrorists are treating them like they are not human beings, and nobody deserves to be treated that way.

Really, you guys. You both sound like two of the most uncaring, and callous people I've ever encountered. Let the eat cake! Eh!


11 Jun 10 - 10:39 PM (#2925975)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Bobad,

PS - I Just followed your link ...


Guess what ... on the page you provided is a list of countries ...

AND GAZA ISN''T ON IT.


So much for that evidence!

You are a waste of time and effort, and your new found puppy No.6 needs to get his nose out of your ass and smell the coffee.


11 Jun 10 - 10:41 PM (#2925976)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

That's probably because Gaza is not a country. Israel has made sure of that.


11 Jun 10 - 10:49 PM (#2925982)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Wait - its included under the all inclusive umbrella of Palestinian Occupied Territories.

So the figures are heavily moderated by the quality of life in the rest of the occupied palestinian territories.

That would be handy for somebody trying to give a misleading impression of the figures, but unhelpful for someone trying to determine quality of life in Gaza specifically.

I wonder where Gaza would come in the table if it were presented in isolation.


11 Jun 10 - 10:49 PM (#2925983)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6

Oh Bobad ... yer about as misleading as Crow Sister ... Geeezuz H.

But until June 8th Egypt was participating in the blockade.

biLL


11 Jun 10 - 10:52 PM (#2925984)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

Entry 110 - Occupied Palestinian Territories


11 Jun 10 - 10:56 PM (#2925986)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Egypt is still participating in the blockade, at the command of the Egyptian lapdog's president's masters, the US and Israel.

He's letting a few people out, but that's about it. And my own opinion is that the only reason he's even doing that much is to provide people like you with more excuses to perpetuate the illegal and utterly immoral blockade.


11 Jun 10 - 10:58 PM (#2925987)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Bobad,

You're late. see my post of: - 11 Jun 10 - 10:49 PM


Number 6.

That is precisely why there have also been activists protesting on the egyptian side, and why there have been smugglers breaking the Egyptian Blockade.

In fact, as I have stated, 75% of Gaza's essential goods are smuggled in from Egypt. (Link already provided by me near the start of the thread).

Egypt hasn't murdered any of them yet.


11 Jun 10 - 11:02 PM (#2925989)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Actually, that's no longer true. Egyptian forces blew a few of them up inside the tunnels.

The problem with the tunnels is that the goods that come through there are too expensive for most Gazans to be able to afford, since most Gazans are unemployed and goods coming through the tunnels are much more expensive than regular goods would be because they are black market items.


11 Jun 10 - 11:10 PM (#2925992)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

That is very sad news.

And Egypt needs to be held to account alongside Israel.


11 Jun 10 - 11:13 PM (#2925993)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6

damn right they do.

biLL


11 Jun 10 - 11:16 PM (#2925995)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

They won't be held to account. As long as they're willing to commit those kinds of atrocities at the behest of Israel, they will be protected by both Israel and the US.


11 Jun 10 - 11:18 PM (#2925996)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6

oh BTW ... "Egypt is still participating in the blockade" ... from what I understand as of June 8th Egypt has lifted the blockade ... temporarily at least.

biLL


11 Jun 10 - 11:18 PM (#2925997)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad

"So the figures are heavily moderated by the quality of life in the rest of the occupied palestinian territories."

I suppose you can provide some data for that claim.

In case you missed it earlier here is a link I provided that shows the hardships which are being endured by the Palestinians in Gaza http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/mideastdispatches/archives/001114.html

Oh and don't miss the videos, they will make your mouth water


11 Jun 10 - 11:24 PM (#2926000)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

h BTW ... "Egypt is still participating in the blockade" ... from what I understand as of June 8th Egypt has lifted the blockade ... temporarily at least.

That's the spin that's being put out there, but it's only partially true. They're still not allowing goods to go in, and they're only allowing a few people to go out. For the most part, the blockade is still being enforced by Egypt.


12 Jun 10 - 12:47 AM (#2926019)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

bobad, the situation in Gaza is being grossly misrepresented in your link. For one thing, most Gazans can't afford to eat at posh restaurants or stay in posh resorts. This is because they can't get jobs because the Israeli terrorists have destroyed their economy.

And that video was made before the blockade was tightened to the extent it is now. The last time Mahmood Abbas (who is in that video) was in Gaza was before Hamas was elected. You're spreading lies and propaganda. Here's the facts...

___________


The amount of goods allowed into Gaza by Israel falls far short of the minimum required to avoid malnutrition, poverty, and prevent or treat a variety of illnesses. According to Amnesty International's recently-released annual report, the siege has resulted in "mass unemployment, extreme poverty, food insecurity and food price rises caused by shortages." Consider the following statistics:


    * 61 percent of households face food insecurity, defined as inadequate physical, social or economic access to food, and rely on assistance from aid agencies. An additional 16.2 percent are considered vulnerable to food insecurity. [2]

    * 65 percent of the food insecure are children under the age of 18. [3]

    * Unemployment is at 40 percent [4]

    * 10 percent of children under five are stunted (low height for age, usually attributed to a chronic lack of protein and micronutrients, including iron and essential vitamins), a steadily increasing trend over recent years, according to UNICEF. [5]

    * More than 10 percent of children are chronically malnourished, according to the World Health Organization, a significant increase since siege began.

    * The number of children under five suffering from acute malnutrition nearly doubled between 2006 and 2008 from 1.4 to 2.4 percent, according to UNICEF.

    * 65 percent of children aged 9-12 months, and 35 percent of pregnant women are anemic. [6]

    * According to a recent poverty survey conducted by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, the number of Palestinian refugees completely unable to secure access to food and lacking the means to purchase even the most basic items, such as soap, school stationery and safe drinking water ('abject poverty') has tripled since the imposition of the blockade in June 2007

    * A majority of Gazans experience rolling blackouts of up to 12 hours a day, every day as a result of a chronic shortfall in electricity production resulting from the blockade [7]

    * Due to insufficient wastewater treatment capacity, Gaza's water authorities release 60-80 million liters a day of raw and partially treated sewage into the Mediterranean Sea, in order to avoid sewage flooding residential areas.

    * Water supply for domestic use is insufficient, raising hygiene and health concerns. In order to pump water to households, the water wells must receive electricity in synchronization with electricity supply to the same households. Almost all the households receive water for only 5-7 hours a day.


3. Does the blockade prevent the functioning of Gaza's economy?


Yes. Export of Palestinian goods, the import of raw materials and access to Gaza's natural resources have been severely restricted. For example:


    * Roughly 118 truckloads of strawberries and cut flowers exports were permitted to leave Gaza between December 10, 2009 and May 2010. Before the blockade, an average of 70 truckloads a day left Gaza during strawberry season. [8]

    * Since January 2009, the Israeli navy has illegally restricted Palestinian fishermen's access to three nautical miles offshore, yet in practice Israel often limits fishermen to only two nautical miles, reducing their catch by 47 percent. [9]

    * 46 percent of Gaza's agricultural land is inaccessible or out of production either due to destruction of lands caused by Israeli military attacks or by its "security buffer zone." [10]

    * Roughly 90 percent of Gaza's factories are closed or are functioning at less than 10 percent capacity because of the inability to obtain raw materials and the inability to export finished products [11].

    * The Israeli human rights organization Gisha provides the following example of how the blockade aims to prevent economic development: "Israel permits Gaza residents to receive small packets of margarine, considered a consumption item. Israel bans, however, the transfer of large buckets of margarine, because the buckets are designed for industrial use, rather than home consumption, meaning that they could be used to allow a local factory to produce biscuits - and thus engage in economic activity. Similarly, requests to permit empty cans into Gaza - intended for the preservation and marketing of Gaza-produced tomato paste - have been refused, but requests to transfer prepared, Israeli-made tomato paste are permitted." [12]


12 Jun 10 - 12:50 AM (#2926020)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

This is only a partial list of banned items. There are many more.


4. What are some of the items Israel has prohibited from entering Gaza?


    * sage

    * cardamom

    * cumin

    * coriander

    * ginger

    * jam

    * halva

    * vinegar

    * nutmeg

    * chocolate

    * fruit preserves

    * seeds and nuts

    * biscuits and sweets

    * potato chips

    * gas for soft drinks

    * dried fruit

    * fresh meat

    * plaster

    * tar

    * wood for construction

    * cement

    * iron

    * glucose

    * industrial salt

    * plastic/glass/metal containers

    * industrial margarine

    * tarpaulin sheets for huts

    * fabric (for clothing)

    * flavor and smell enhancers

    * fishing rods

    * various fishing nets

    * buoys

    * ropes for fishing

    * nylon nets for greenhouses

    * hatcheries and spare parts for hatcheries

    * spare parts for tractors

    * dairies for cowsheds

    * irrigation pipe systems

    * ropes to tie greenhouses

    * planters for saplings

    * heaters for chicken farms

    * musical instruments

    * size A4 paper

    * writing implements

    * notebooks

    * newspapers

    * toys

    * razors

    * sewing machines and spare parts

    * heaters

    * horses

    * donkeys

    * goats

    * cattle

    * chicks [13]


http://imeu.net/news/article0019136.shtml


You really are one of the most callous and unfeeling people I have ever encountered. I bet you don't even see Palestinians as human beings.


12 Jun 10 - 01:22 AM (#2926027)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

http://www.oxfam.org.uk/oxfam_in_action/emergencies/gaza_crisis.html

"One year since the Israeli military offensive, codenamed Operation Cast Lead, the Gaza Strip remains in a protracted crisis. Of the 1.5 million people in Gaza, 80% depend on humanitarian aid. This was already the case before the 22-day war that began on 27 December 2008. But today, the consequences of that war still overwhelm the coastal strip, as badly-needed reconstruction materials remain banned from entering Gaza."


12 Jun 10 - 01:54 AM (#2926035)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

More passenger testimony...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Gp8ECrDQLg&feature=related


12 Jun 10 - 05:32 AM (#2926087)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.

Yesterday I went to buy carrots. The only carrots not in too large bags for me came from Israel. I bought no carrots.

So sue me, Israel.

Penny


12 Jun 10 - 05:41 AM (#2926090)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Bobad - that video is 3 years old.

Do you have anything current?



Bobad - Gaza was blitzed during December 2008 and January 2009.

Remember?

It was on the news quite a lot.

Since then, Gazans have been denied materials to rebuild and denied essential supplies.

The west Bank hasn't been through a similar assault.


Are you going to try to convince us that Gaza and the west bank are on a par in terms of the standard of living?


It is fact that is easily established by reading through the numerous links on this thread, that Gaza is in a considerably worse state than the west bank.

The west bank has access to bulding materials, medicine and food in a way that Gaza simply hasn't.

The figure for the occupied territories as a whole is an average figure.

That Average figure is already very low.

If you examine your page more carefully you find that GDP per capita in occupied territories is a 5th of what it is in Egypt.


It follows that Gaza is significatly worse off again.


Bobad - ALL your arguments and ALL your evidence havebeen refuted successfully so far.

And you have provided a lot.

Even if you were to post something current and relevant now, your overall position has been so discredited that you couldn't be taken seriously.

This is a clear case of a man who is using whatever evidence he can, whether relevant or not, to support his prejudices rather than trying to determine the truth based on what can be observed to be true.

Bobad, that last paragraph was about you.


12 Jun 10 - 06:55 AM (#2926108)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

Alex Harrison witness: They did not treat any of us peacefully and when they say that, it's an absolute lie.


12 Jun 10 - 07:57 AM (#2926124)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

I think I could do with a crash course in Zionism, as I'm far less savvy about some of the pertinent issues than many of the posters here. I've been following most of the links and stories, but one of the things I keep encountering is the quiet (as in not generally reported) but persistent voice of religious Orthodox Jews who feel Judaism has been usurped by what they see as an irreligious political Zionist movement.

Jewish Rabbis Condemn Israeli Massacre of Free Gaza Flotilla


12 Jun 10 - 02:23 PM (#2926314)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger

The idea that something is "complex" is a word today used as a smokescreen. Obama has used it in regard to the BP crimes in the Gulf and in the defense of Wall Street.

Israel thought it could get away with its public relations excusing it for war crimes. That's why they attacked an innocent vessel.

As to the Turkish bit, it wasn't about Turkey although Israel sought to make it that way.
That is a complete misrepresentation.

If America's only friend in the Middle-East is Israel, then as a country we are in big trouble.

I think that if American Jews were allowed to criticize Israel on the media, it would open the door to meaningful dialogue. Israel and the US today have a news blackout on this issue and that includes G.E.'s MSNBC.

Again, turn over the rock and witness the roaches.


12 Jun 10 - 04:18 PM (#2926371)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

More flotilla members complaining of their bank cards being used by Israelis after they were confiscated. Along with complaints of the theft of almost all of their other personal belongings...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnyA5kYwt40


12 Jun 10 - 04:26 PM (#2926374)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Egypt still enforcing the blockade, blocking a new flotilla, despite signing an agreement to allow it through


12 Jun 10 - 11:52 PM (#2926577)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

LOL!

Looks like the Israelis staged some of the fighting scenes, too. In particular, pay attention to the walking through iron parts...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v95avNGWvcA


13 Jun 10 - 03:27 AM (#2926616)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

"I think that if American Jews were allowed to criticize Israel on the media, it would open the door to meaningful dialogue."

Aye, it seems pressing that dissenting Jewish voices, be they American, Israeli or European, need to be be clearly heard in the media. Not only so that the public at large can hear that Jewish people and the state of Israel are not one unified homogeneous entity as they can be cast, but also that anti-Semitism rising in the wake of the publicity over Israel's actions, may be countered.

German Jews sending aid ship to Gaza Strip


13 Jun 10 - 04:00 AM (#2926622)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

Israeli and Canadian Jewish women protest Gaza massacre in Canada:
"We are Jewish Women: Not in Our Name"

One of the points I found most interesting on this video, is where a young woman at the end of the video describes a rising tide of dissent among Canadian Jewish youth, and frustration among Jewish youth at the Canadian govt's unquestioning support for Israel. If what she has to say is genuinely representative of the feelings of Canadian Jewish youth, I imagine Canada won't be alone in such a sea change.


13 Jun 10 - 04:23 AM (#2926626)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

More American Jewish voices aren't heard in the US, not because they aren't speaking out with everything they've got, but because the complicit corporate media in the US doesn't ever cover it when they do. There has been no news coverage in the country, for instance, of the young woman who was shot in the face with a tear gas canister by Israeli border police and lost her eye because of it. She was protesting the massacre on the flotilla when this happened. But no mention of it here in this country. The complicit corporate media will never allow American Jews who criticize Israel to be heard.


13 Jun 10 - 06:13 AM (#2926658)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

"More American Jewish voices aren't heard in the US, not because they aren't speaking out with everything they've got, but because the complicit corporate media in the US doesn't ever cover it when they do."

Following up the prior vid. where a young Jewish Canadian woman describes a rising tide of objection to Israel's actions in Gaza among Canadian Jewish youth, this opinion piece (and straying off the specific topic of the flotilla again here) suggests a similar trend among American Jewish youth: Israel In Danger of Losing America's Jewish Youth

If such feeling exists and indeed is growing specifically among Western Jewish youth, however much corporate media may strive to silence dissenting Jewish voices, it can't do so indefinitely. One can only wonder where that will leave Israel in ten or more years..


13 Jun 10 - 09:38 AM (#2926725)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""Despite the fact international coverage of the event has become a bit more balanced, the extremist nature of the organizers of the flotilla, as well as of some of the passengers on board, remains overlooked in many circles.""

Miriam needs to take a brief reality check.

Those fanatics were so extreme in their views that they boarded the ship without effective weapons, So extreme that they took on fully armed troops with a few iron bars and galley knives, So extreme that, when they captured handguns, they did not use them, and so extreme that not one soldier was seriously injured, let alone killed, as were nine of these extremist fanatics.

I take it that Miriam believes that political opposition is a crime which should be punishable by death, unless committed by Israeli troops, in which case murder magically transmogrifies into justifiable self defence.

Shheeesh!
Don T.

PS. Nobody has yet responded to my comment that antisemitism applies to hating Arabs just as much as to hating Jews.


13 Jun 10 - 10:21 AM (#2926741)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

Don(Wyziwyg)T writes: "Nobody has yet responded to my comment that antisemitism applies to hating Arabs just as much as to hating Jews."

Antisemitism is a word with a history behind, that cannot be disentangled from anti-Judaism. It was born as another way, a milder way, of saying anti-Judaism.


13 Jun 10 - 10:48 AM (#2926751)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

Wilhelm Mahr (1819-1904) could be termed the father of 'modern' antisemitism

When he became embittered about the failure of the 1848-49 German Revolution to democratize Germany, and about his own rapidly declining political fortunes, he turned his venom against the Jews

"Marr and others employed the word antisemitism in the largely secular anti-Jewish political campaigns that became widespread in Europe around the turn of the century.

The word derived from an 18th-century analysis of languages that differentiated between those with so-called "Aryan" roots and those with so-called "Semitic" ones.

This distinction led, in turn, to the assumption--a false one--that there were corresponding racial groups.

Within this framework, Jews became "Semites," and that designation paved the way for Marr's new vocabulary.
He could have used the conventional German term Judenhass to refer to his hatred of Jews, but that way of speaking carried religious connotations that Marr wanted to de-emphasize in favour of racial ones"


Eventually, it became a way of speaking about all the forms of hostility toward Jews throughout history.

From the Jewish Virtual Library

There was nothing 'mild' about the use of the term

"For if Jews were found wanting religiously, it was possible for them to convert.
If their business practices or political views were somehow inappropriate, changed behavior could, in principle, correct their shortcomings.
But antisemites in the line that ran from Marr to Hitler believed that Jews were a menace no matter what they did"

ibid above vis The Holocaust Project


13 Jun 10 - 11:00 AM (#2926761)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""Antisemitism is a word with a history behind, that cannot be disentangled from anti-Judaism. It was born as another way, a milder way, of saying anti-Judaism.""

Get an education Roberto.

Jews and Arabs are both Semites.

Racial hatred of either is Antisemitism.

I know you would prefer that it were otherwise, but it ISN'T. LIVE WITH IT!

Don T.


13 Jun 10 - 11:13 AM (#2926769)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John on the Sunset Coast

"PS. Nobody has yet responded to my comment that antisemitism applies to hating Arabs just as much as to hating Jews. "

This topic was covered at the Mudcat several years ago at other blame
Israel fests. As EmmaB correctly poits out the term anti-Semite (and its varions) was coined specifically and solely to apply to Jews, and is attributed to William Marr (spellings differ).

To claim not to be anti-Semitic because one does not have animus towards Palestineans or other Semites, is a misuse of the term. Continual and deliberate use of it incorrectly may, in itself, be proof of anti-Semitism by the user.


13 Jun 10 - 11:25 AM (#2926774)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

Claiming someone is anti-semitic, in the purely racist way that it was coined, when they are critical of the actions of the government of Israel (as are many Jewish people both wirhin the state and internationally) is also a misuse of the term

Continual and deliberate use of it incorrectly may, in itself, be proof of an attempt to discredit such critics and their protests by the user.


13 Jun 10 - 12:09 PM (#2926789)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

McGrath,
"I have always understood that it is not very easy to get a photograph of a bullet in flight. "

Is that really what you understood me to mean about evidence, rather than people taking cover, injured people, bullet strike marks, mentions on the live feed, etc.?
We have that scene of blood that I acknowledge preceded the landings.
We have no one killed by a rifle bullet. Only by the short range 9mm pistol rounds.
Carol, do you withdraw the claim that your video clip showed four rifle shots used to murder someone on the deck?

The one person not killed by 9mm had a small container of lead shot in his temple not recognised as coming from a firearm.
Slingshot perhaps?


13 Jun 10 - 12:17 PM (#2926792)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll

Talking of non-responses; anti Semitism continues to be the red-herring of this thread.
There has been no evidence whatever of anti-Semitism on this thread - if this is not true, please point out the examples.
Jim Carroll


13 Jun 10 - 12:42 PM (#2926801)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

"The one person not killed by 9mm had a small container of lead shot in his temple not recognised as coming from a firearm.
Slingshot perhaps? "

NO Keith - please read the autopsy report I quoted

Cegdet Kiliclar, 38 the photographer 'armed' only with his camera

"One gunshot wound: middle of forehead"

Dr Haluk Ince, the chairman of the council of forensic medicine in Istanbul, said that in only one case was there a single bullet wound, to the forehead from a distant shot, while every other victim suffered multiple wounds.
He added that all but one of the bullets retrieved from the bodies came from 9mm rounds.
Of the other round, he said: "It was the first time we have seen this kind of material used in FIREARMS.
It was just a container including many types of pellets usually used in shotguns. It penetrated the head region in the temple and we found it intact in the brain."

There are a variety of riot control 'non-lethal' weapons and rounds they can fire at crowds, although these are generally considered to be "less-lethal" rounds anything fired from a gun has the potential to be deadly if used contrary to recommended usage

These rounds are fired from a 40-mm gun -- either a single-shot launcher (for greater accuracy) or a multi-launcher that can have five or six rounds loaded at once.
The guns are similar to military grenade launchers


13 Jun 10 - 12:54 PM (#2926808)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Carol, do you withdraw the claim that your video clip showed four rifle shots used to murder someone on the deck?

Where did I make this claim?


13 Jun 10 - 02:27 PM (#2926915)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Carol, you actually said,"And you can quite clearly see the guy in the last video I posted firing his gun. You can see the recoil. And the passenger in question did end up dead, with several bullets in his chest and head."
The soldier in the video is seen firing a rifle. The video captions say the victim is killed by four shots from the rifle. Emmas report said no one was killed with a rifle.


13 Jun 10 - 02:36 PM (#2926921)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

It is not even clear that the rifle in the video is actually fired.
You claimed to be able to see recoil.
I could not and there is certainly no muzzle flash which should be prominent in that semi darkness.


13 Jun 10 - 02:42 PM (#2926927)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I saw a report from someone with some expertise on weapons and the kinds of weapons being used by Israel, and he gave some probabilities about what he thinks it most likely is. I've lost track of it among all of the other bits of information I've accumulated, but I'll try to find it and put it here.


13 Jun 10 - 02:44 PM (#2926929)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

By the way, he said he thinks it's some kind of pump action gun, and you can quite clearly see the Israeli pumping the gun, which, I guess is evidence of the gun being fired.


13 Jun 10 - 02:49 PM (#2926934)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger

I see no reason not to use the term anti-Zionist to reflect objection to current policies by Netanyahu.

What is it with these apologists saying that the people onboard the Mavi Marmara were
not really shot at point blank by the Israeli commandos? Who cares what weapons were used? They killed people and innocent ones at that.

The passengers aboard the Mavi Marmara killed no one and even helped wounded Israeli commandos.

It's pretty clear what happened.

Biden and Obama are both apologists for Zionist murders.


13 Jun 10 - 02:57 PM (#2926937)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Art Thieme

Probably this is simplistic, but I must say again that: Israel, as a nation in this world of nations, ought to be able to be challenged when it is wrong without the challenger automatically being labeled antisemitic. ----- It was wrong when Martin Gibson did that a year or two back, and it is wrong in recent times as well. I understand the sensitivities and also the realities involved.

Art


13 Jun 10 - 03:44 PM (#2926955)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T

I don't really plan to get back into this discussion. But, I feel I should share a couple of perspectives I have found. Hope it contributes to the discussion...I'm outt'a here.


The Psychological Impact of the Second Intifada on Israeli Society:
http://dev.pij.org/jcms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=728&

I could not get beyond the abstract for the paper below, but it seems interesting.

The phychological Impact of Terriorism:A double Edged Sword
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3791018


13 Jun 10 - 03:44 PM (#2926956)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Thanks Carol.
Pump action might be paintball or plastic, but not 9mm so not fatal shots.
Emma, that other fatal profectile might as you say have been fired from a paintball, low lethality weapon and be an unlucky hit.


13 Jun 10 - 04:22 PM (#2926978)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

"that other fatal profectile might as you say have been fired from a paintball, low lethality weapon and be an unlucky hit."

So what do you think it was firing Keith? hardly a paintball if it had "pellets usually used in shotguns"

"A pepper-spray projectile, also called a pepper-spray ball, or pepper-spray pellet is a projectile weapon made up of a powdered chemical that irritates eyes and nose (see pepper spray).
These less-lethal weapons launch a fragile ball which breaks upon impact and releases a super irritant powder called PAVA (capsaicin II) pepper

Although generally considered non-lethal when properly used (targets should exclude the face, eyes, throat or spine), deaths have occurred when they have been fired at inappropriate areas.
In one well publicized incident, in 2004 where the Boston Police Department during crowd control situation killed 21-year-old Victoria Snelgrove using a pepper-spray projectile weapon"

But this was NOT paint, NOT pepper.......

It was multiple 9mm shots mainly to the head which caused the fatal wounds of those victims autopsied - however, most reports suggest that six victims are still missing.


13 Jun 10 - 05:37 PM (#2927024)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow

...an unlucky hit...

Like the tear gas grenade aimed at Emily Henochowicz that destroyed her eye, for example.

It's taken a generation and more for the truth about Bloody Sunday to be recognised and accepted by the political successors of the government that was responsible. It'll probably take as long for the same to happen for Bloody Monday.


13 Jun 10 - 06:09 PM (#2927040)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

The guy was saying that Israel uses pump action 22s. He said if several 22 shells were pumped into someone at very close range, it could kill them. And we don't know that no one was killed with 22s because there are still several missing passengers who have not been accounted for. He also said that these guns might not have a flash.

He said it can't be a paint ball gun because it doesn't have the thing on top that would hold the pellets. I don't have time to find it right now, but I'll look when I have more time.


14 Jun 10 - 12:52 AM (#2927243)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I can't find it, and I don't remember where I saw it. But it does provide possible answers to your questions, Keith. I'll keep an eye out and maybe I'll find it eventually.


On another note...

In this piece, Ali Abunimah does a good job of proving that the Israelis were firing indiscriminately at people when they were not under any threat.

http://aliabunimah.posterous.com/20299014


14 Jun 10 - 02:22 AM (#2927267)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

http://aliabunimah.posterous.com/european-and-american-weapons-used-in-israeli


This article talks about the origin of some of the weapons and equipment used by the Israelis. And it has this to say about paintball guns...

"Israeli propaganda made much of the fact that the Gaza Freedom Flotilla hijackers "only" used paintball guns (that is until they started shooting people with live ammunition), as if this was somehow a "safe" or even a nonviolent thing to do! Paintball is considered by many people a sport where opposing teams hunt each other down and fire projectiles which explode against a target marking them with paint. Everywhere that this activity is legal, it is strictly regulated for safety, because firing paintballs at a person who is not wearing protective gear, especially a face mask, can result in serious injury including loss of eyesight and possibly even death. Firing paintball guns indiscriminately against unprotected civilians is an incredibly reckless and inherently violent and dangerous thing to do."

So what purpose is there in using paintball guns? My own theory, considering the fact that all of the paint used was red, and the fact that people appear to have difficulty figuring out what is paint and what is blood, is that they used it to confuse people about what they were seeing, and to cause them to think they were seeing paint when they were actually seeing blood.


14 Jun 10 - 02:27 AM (#2927268)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

Etymology <> meaning. It doesn't matter what the individual parts of a compound word "mean". It doesn't matter what language they came from, or what they meant in that language. What matters is how a language community uses the word. The word "antisemitic" is used by speakers of English to mean "prejudice, hatred, violence (etc) against Jews." It doesn't matter a rat's ass that Arabic is called a "Semitic" language. What matters is how the vast majority of the speakers of English use the word "antisemitic." That's what it means for a word to "mean" something. Usage. Not etymology.

You might as well say I don't wear "glasses" because the lenses are made of plastic. Totally misses the point.


14 Jun 10 - 02:57 AM (#2927276)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.

Rather than start a new thread, I'm adding this here. Poland has arrested an Israeli believed to be involved in the passport misuse and the murder in Dubai under a European warrant. Germany wants him extradited to face trial there. Israel is apparently demanding he is released to Israel.

Telegraph version of story

Meanwhile Blair is on the air about changing the blockade. He wants the list of items changed from permitted to prohibited and to include rebuilding materials, monitored so as not to be used by Hamas. Also that materials should not go in via sea but through Ashdod and overland.

Penny


14 Jun 10 - 03:59 AM (#2927296)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

McGrath, this is an emotive subject, and we are discussing violent death, but can we try to be rational and objective?
I would be happy to start discussing the Northern Ireland conflict again, but not on this thread.
Carol is a passionate supporter of tha Palestinian cause, and anti Israeli. That does not mean anti Semitic. I say she is not and distance myself from those who do.

Carol I think that indiscriminate shooting would result in many people with few wounds, not 8 people with many wounds.
I think we should give credit for the use of riot control weapons rather than lethal ones, imperfect though they are.
I note that on all previous and subsequent boardings, where the soldiers were not attacked, they did not fire their pistols.
I think the murder video was being dishonest in its captioning.
Also, the attempt to discredit the boat video was dishonest.

Do we have any more information on the 6 missing?


14 Jun 10 - 05:54 AM (#2927332)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Carol I think that indiscriminate shooting would result in many people with few wounds, not 8 people with many wounds.

Keith, there were many people with few wounds. And a few people with many wounds. There are no hard figures because some people are missing and it's difficult to get information about everyone at this time, but the number of wounded is at least 30 and could be as high as 60, and the dead are at least 9 and could be as high as 19. I would say that 30 wounded people is certainly an indication of indiscriminate shooting.

The Israelis did fire their weapons on the other boats. They didn't use live fire, but they did use rubber bullets, tasers, and paint pellets on unprotected people. And they beat the people in the other boats, and abused them in many other ways. On previous flotillas, they use force in other ways, for instance ramming an aid boat and nearly sinking it, and various kinds of abuse.

But since they started using live fire before they boarded the Mavi Marmara, it cannot be argued that they were acting in self-defense when they did so, so they must have had an intention to kill people on that ship before they ever boarded it. And as we can see in the photographic evidence that Ali Abunimah presents, they were firing indiscriminately at passengers in situations where they were not being attacked or threatened.

I appreciate your not being willing to participate in the inappropriate use of the word "anti-Semitism", Keith. But I would put this differently...

Carol is a passionate supporter of tha Palestinian cause

I am a passionate supporter of human rights. I do not differentiate between groups of people when it comes to the issue of human rights.


14 Jun 10 - 06:01 AM (#2927337)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"Also, the attempt to discredit the boat video was dishonest."

I Disagree Keith on the basis that the video of the boat tied up and the video of the attacking boats in the second video do not corroborate each other.

They are very different for a number of reasons, wheter it be firing of what appear mainly to be paintballs, but may be other weapons too, whether it be the fact that the boats come close enough to shoot and then pull away, whether it be that the boats in the second video are moving a LOT faster, and bumping up off the sea with each wave, or even whether it just be that fact that the troops in the second video are alert and actually doing something.

For those navy seals to come in at speed, shoot paintballs at passengers and then to tie their boat alongside and then to just sit and take it while water, plates and stun grenades were lobbed at them is inconsistent with the actions of any boarding party.

The helicopters dropped their troopers quickly and efficiently as you might expect from a special forces team, and that is what I would expect from navy seals too.

The boat video looks like a medieval siege in which the invaders have suddenly realized they forgot their ladder.

It just doesn't add up.

Why would they stop firing paintballs and then, once they came under 'attack' just sit and allow themselves to be humiliated.

Sorry, but the question of whether or not it was faked is a pertinent one, and consistent with the faked weapons find and the faked radio communications.

None of the passengers videos have been discredited yet.

The other video of the passengers on deck walking through metal posts etc is more clearly a fake for all the reasons explained in the video.


14 Jun 10 - 07:02 AM (#2927374)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

Further to American media failure to report dissenting Jewish voices, this event was held yesterday:

Washington: Jewish Rabbis to lead prayers for Gaza aid flotilla victims

Quote: "The organisers say: "If you can't come - you can still help: by insisting that national media and your local media and the progressive media as well cover this event - it's a way of making clear that the entire Jewish people should not be blamed for this morally distorted action on the part of Israel - and you don't have to be Jewish to make that point to the media." "

Fromm Googling I didn't find too much about it, bar this and a brief article in the Jerusalem Post.

Was it covered anywhere?


14 Jun 10 - 07:54 AM (#2927426)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Lox, the boat crew in the video are trying to get a hook on to the ship.
They are not tied up alongside.
They have a ladder ready to be pulled up.

Carol, how do we know people are still missing please.

Carol, I accept that Israelis used force on other vessels, but not lethal force. As they were not attacked they had no reason to use their pistols.

I know we have the scene of blood, but do you have any other evidence that live fire was used prior to boarding?


14 Jun 10 - 08:55 AM (#2927458)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

CarolC writes "I am a passionate supporter of human rights. I do not differentiate between groups of people when it comes to the issue of human rights."

Not true, based on what I've read by her. CarolC is specialised in US and Israel abuses (the biggest problems in the world - she says), but luckily the US and Israel are not the worst human rights abusers in the world. Therefore, the worst states, regimes and political groups in the world are not her main concern, and she can't be considered a passionate supporter of human rights in general.


14 Jun 10 - 09:23 AM (#2927479)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"but luckily the US and Israel are not the worst human rights abusers in the world."

Carol may disagree with you there.

And knowing Carol she will have alot of evidece to back up her claim.


In addition to which, Carol takes responsibility for human rights abuses which are conducted in her name and with her tax dollars.


Also, In order to argue that she is NOT a supporter of human rights generally, you have to show where she is in agreement with human rights.

You can't do that which makes your comment wrong.


Carol will admit that by being American, she is complicit in American human rights abuses done in her name and funded using her tax dollars, therefore in order to be truly exhonorated of your accusation she must speak out against Human rights abuses carried out by the USA, Great Britain and Israel.


Roberto, your reasponable facade is slipping and giving way to slander.

Is this because your are runnng out of on topic arguments?


14 Jun 10 - 09:27 AM (#2927483)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

TYPO:

"Also, In order to argue that she is NOT a supporter of human rights generally, you have to show where she is in agreement with human rights"

Should read:

"Also, In order to argue that she is NOT a supporter of human rights generally, you have to show where she is in agreement with human rights abuses"

Until you can find examples of her being in favour of any human rights abuses you must find an example of this.

Unfounded accusations against people are called slander and lies.

You should back up your claim or retract it.


14 Jun 10 - 09:30 AM (#2927487)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

I disagree with much CarolC presents as fact, which I see as conjecture, but IMO she does care about human rights, and I understand her point about being more concerned about those violations her taxes are paying for.



"Carol will admit that by being American, she is complicit in American human rights abuses done in her name and funded using her tax dollars, therefore in order to be truly exhonorated of your accusation she must speak out against Human rights abuses carried out by the USA, Great Britain and Israel."

However, I would like to point out that MANY nations get aid from the US, including Palestinians. So I hope she continues to apply her standards of behaviour to all of them.


14 Jun 10 - 09:47 AM (#2927504)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"MANY nations get aid from the US, including Palestinians"

Not military.

None of the aid given to palestinians by the US can be used to hurt Israelis.

The US and the UK Arms Israel with the most current high tech stuff available.

Hamas commits human rights abuses.

But Hamas' human rights abuses are not facilitated with my alleged consent and my taxes.


14 Jun 10 - 09:50 AM (#2927506)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

Lox, the tax dollars argument doesn't always work. CarolC uses the tax dollars argument to explain that she feels responsible for the US and Israel, and therefore she concentrates her attention most of all on them. I take note of that, no problem. But when she judges the US and Israel the two biggest problems and cause of problems in the world, I can participate to this discussion as well, because it is an universal assessment that we all can debate.

I posted a summary previously about the Freedom House Report 2010. I don't swear they are right (but I'm pretty sure CarolC is wrong), they propose a list of the countries with the worst human rights conditions, different from what CarolC says. Is it possible to discuss that? I think that the passionate defenders of human rights should be interested.

From the Report:

"Included in this report are nine countries judged to have the worst human rights conditions: Burma, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Libya, North Korea, Somalia, Sudan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan. Also included is one territory, Tibet.

The report also includes eight additional countries near the bottom of Freedom House's ratings scale: Belarus, Chad, China, Cuba, Guinea, Laos, Saudi Arabia, and Syria. The two territories
of South Ossetia and Western Sahara are also included in this group."


14 Jun 10 - 09:59 AM (#2927517)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"CarolC uses the tax dollars argument to explain that she feels responsible for the US and Israel"

No. You misunderstand.

She does not "feel" responsible.

She IS responsible.

Her country is a democracy.

Her government claims to represent her with her consent.

Her government tells lies to the electorate in her country to justify its actions in her name with her money.

The above are not opinions, they are facts.


Carol has also qualified that many of these places are in the state they are in with the help of US, UK or Israeli backing.

We - the allies - the good guys - if not involved directly, are often involved behind the scenes.


A perfect example is BB's recent example of the unrest in Kyrgyzstan.

Why is there unrest there?

Surprise surprise - there's a US base there that the locals don't want anymore.

The US backed leader who wants to keep the US military presence was already kicked out of office I thought ... that was the last I knew a couple of months ago ...

... since then there has been political unrest and lots have been dying ...

... ring any bells?


14 Jun 10 - 10:08 AM (#2927522)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

"The US backed leader who wants to keep the US military presence was already kicked out of office I thought ... that was the last I knew a couple of months ago ...

... since then there has been political unrest and lots have been dying ..."


So, the US is at fault because we did not go in and force them to accept the leader we wanted??? And the present government ( that the US is NOT supporting) is allowing this atrocity, but that makes it the US's fault?


14 Jun 10 - 10:23 AM (#2927531)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Not what I said BB,

I said that the last I knew there was a conflict betwen the people and the US puppet.

A few months later, there is still unrest.

There is also still a US base.

If the new non US backed government was being respected by the US why hasn't the US base been closed down?


The US is at the heart of this stuff and of that I have no doubt.


14 Jun 10 - 10:26 AM (#2927533)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

"The US is at the heart of this stuff and of that I have no doubt. "

I have far less faith in the competance of the US government than you do. I doubt very much if the present administration has any idea of what is happening, or why, and is certainly not capable of manipulating it.


14 Jun 10 - 10:32 AM (#2927537)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

I've partecipated to demonstrations on these problems since the Seventies. We used to put the blame on the US and the Western Countries, mine included. First because of Vietnam, then Chile, and so on. We had many good points. But not only good points, and we've often been not so attentive to other problems. We've been deaf towards Eastern Europe under Moscow, for instance. Nowadays, there still are many and important causes to put the blame on the US, the Western Countries, Israel. But that is not the whole story, today more than decades ago. It arouses my indignation when I hear, or read, of people that profess to be human rights champions and show no sympathy nor interest for the suffering in the world if not caused by the US and Israel.


14 Jun 10 - 11:42 AM (#2927569)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"It arouses my indignation when I hear, or read, of people that profess to be human rights champions and show no sympathy nor interest for the suffering in the world if not caused by the US and Israel."

What causes you to draw the conclusion that anyone on here has no sympathy for sufferers of human rights abuses not committed by the US or Israel?

I don't see any indication that anybody here feels a lack of sympathy for any sufferers of human rights.

I do see that Carol refuses to give tacit consent to her government and its allies for the human rights abuses they commit.

Carol accepts the reality that as a participant in the US democracy, any action committed by her government, good or evil, is her responsibility.

You will find she has a lot to say about US domestic and foreign policy.

The actions of her government that she finds most upsetting are the human rights abuses it supports, directly and indirectly all around the world.

So your criticisms don't apply.


14 Jun 10 - 11:50 AM (#2927579)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Roberto, your knowledge of my activities with regard to human rights is confined to two threads in the Mudcat. That doesn't qualify you to disagree with me when I say that I don't differentiate between groups on the subject of human rights.

When I state the the US and Israel are responsible for most of the problems in the world, I'm just stating a fact. And that website you posted a link for is pitifully incomplete. And it also doesn't discuss how many of the atrocities it lists are the product of interference by countries like the US and Israel. Let's take the killing fields of Cambodia. That never would have happened had the US not already killed millions of people there through its covert bombing campaign of that country. Pol Pot was able to rise to power because of the anger the people of Cambodia felt towards the president of Cambodia, who had assured the people of that country that they would not be bombed by the US, and because we utterly destroyed that society and its ability to function. Your list doesn't even mention the US' covert bombing campaign of Cambodia or the millions of people killed by it.

Let's pick Somalia as an example of a conflict for which the US is responsible. Every time the people in Somalia try to create order in their country and assert their right to self-determination, the US, though covert means and with the assistance of the Kenyan military, which the US supports, destroys it. The US is fighting a proxy resource war in Somalia and has no intention of allowing the Somalis to assert their right to self-determination. Other Western countries have been complicit in the state of affairs in that country also, through over fishing and dumping toxic waste in Somali waters. We never hear about the atrocities being committed in Somalia by the US and other Western countries (sometimes through their proxies, the Kenyans). We only ever hear about the bad things done by Somalis.

I support the right of the Somalis to be left alone to live their lives without the interference of powerful Western governments. As long as Somalia has oil and it's easy for Western countries to take advantage of its lack of ability to defend itself from other countries over fishing and dumping toxic waste in its waters, I don't see any possibility that they will ever be free of such interference.

Let's look at Sudan. We always hear about the terrible things the Sudanese government is doing, but we don't ever hear about the atrocities being committed by the rebels who are being backed by the US and Israel. Sudan is yet another proxy war in which atrocities are being committed by the people who are being supported by the US and also Israel.

Let's look at Sri Lanka and the massacres of civilians there not too long ago. The Sri Lankan military was trained (and no doubt armed) by Israel.

Most of the dictatorial regimes in the world were put in place and are being propped up by the US. We have training schools in this country for despots to learn how to take power and keep it. If you scratch the surface of almost every conflict in the world, you will see just below it the activities of the CIA and/or Mossad, and you will see some valuable resource or balance of power equation at the bottom of it.

And that's not even beginning to address economic atrocities being committed by the US, and the strife and human rights catastrophes that arise from those.

Roberto, unlike you, I do not support the privileging of any group(s) over any other group(s). I am a passionate supporter of human rights for all groups of people, not just the Palestinians. I will admit that I do side with the indigenes whenever there is a conflict between them and any interlopers in their territory. A group's right to self-determination does not include a right to dispossess, displace, or subjugate another people. I do not differentiate between groups of people with regard to human rights.


14 Jun 10 - 11:52 AM (#2927581)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

"It arouses my indignation when I hear, or read, of people that profess to be human rights champions and show no sympathy nor interest for the suffering in the world if not caused by the US and Israel."

How about this: your indignation about something you suppose about someone you've never met, is neither here nor there. And nor does your 'indignation' about what you imagine to be the case concerning another poster that you've never met, have anything whatsoever to do with the topic of this thread. Apart from perhaps a petty attempt to discredit said poster, who it would seem posts on subjects that you appear to object to seeing openly debated. So, why not go and start a "Fans of CarolC Thread!" if you're so interested in surmising about her, and you can ask her what cereal she has for breakfast and what her favourite colour is there, and leave other posters on this thread to discuss the subject that it was created for.. Just a thought ;-)


14 Jun 10 - 12:13 PM (#2927597)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

"It arouses my indignation when I hear, or read, of people that profess to be human rights champions and show no sympathy nor interest for the suffering in the world if not caused by the US and Israel."

All suffering people have my sympathy, and they also have my interest. But that's not the point or the purpose of my activities when I engage in discussions like this one. From my perspective, discussions like this one are opportunities to reveal the truth about atrocities for which I have been made complicit. Sympathy is nice, but it isn't going to save any lives. Telling the truth about atrocities being committed in my name and/or with my tax dollars can ultimately save lives.

I have a very big problem with the propaganda campaigns being waged against the governments and/or groups who are in the cross hairs of the US and Israel's imperialist agenda, however. I may have a lot of sympathy for the people in Iran, for instance, but all of the bloviating in the US about human rights abuses in that country aren't really because my government or the media in my country really give a shit about the people of Iran. It's for the purpose of softening us up for an eventual attack on that country. That's how it was done in Iraq and Afghanistan, too. So when you participate in that kind of collective show of outrage, rather than helping the people of the countries in question, and ensuring that their human rights will be upheld, you are actually helping the imperialist agenda of the US and you help to insure that the human rights of the people in those countries will erode even further. So I don't participate in that kind of activity. Those who do are not helping anyone's human rights.


14 Jun 10 - 12:39 PM (#2927610)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

I doubt very much if the present administration has any idea of what is happening, or why, and is certainly not capable of manipulating it.

I'd say we are manipulated by Israel far more than the other way. There is no political heart in this country to criticize Israel.

"Included in this report are nine countries judged to have the worst human rights conditions: Burma, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Libya, North Korea, Somalia, Sudan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan. Also included is one territory, Tibet.

You have confused "have the worst human rights conditions" with "commit the most human rights violations." Most of the US's human rights violations are overseas, so we can't be said to have the worst human rights "conditions" in this country.


14 Jun 10 - 01:06 PM (#2927623)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I must have been thinking of a list posted by someone else when I made my response about Cambodia. I don't think I've seen the list you're referring to, mousethief, but your point about it is right on the money.


14 Jun 10 - 01:09 PM (#2927627)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

My comment was about Kyrgyzstan.


14 Jun 10 - 01:13 PM (#2927630)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

By the way, Roberto, Lox is in a better position to know the extent of my advocacy for human rights around the world than you are, because he has access to my Facebook status updates.


14 Jun 10 - 01:21 PM (#2927633)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

Double moral makes every attempt to discuss something a waste of time. An example: CarolC writes "Roberto, your knowledge of my activities with regard to human rights is confined to two threads in the Mudcat". I could say exactly the same. But she felt allowed in these two threads to label me as a racist, liar, supporter of the privileging of any group over any other group. I didn't write anything that justifies her excommunications. I won't reply to her in the same style, but I confirm I think her monothematic attitude regarding the US and Israel as the worst countries in the world, that she shares with other people in these two threads, doesn't fit a general human rights defender but a political activist.

Crow Sister, it is true, I've replied to CarolC more than to any other person, but you must admit she has the highest percentage of posts, a machine gun. Besides, she's so touchy when someone criticizes her points, but so ready to directly insult her counterpart, that it is difficult not to react to her remarks. Thank you for you rap and kind suggestion, but the place of CarolC's fan has already been taken, by Lox.


14 Jun 10 - 01:27 PM (#2927644)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

But she felt allowed in these two threads to label me as a racist, liar, supporter of the privileging of any group over any other group. I didn't write anything that justifies her excommunications. I won't reply to her in the same style, but I confirm I think her monothematic attitude regarding the US and Israel as the worst countries in the world, that she shares with other people in these two threads, doesn't fit a general human rights defender but a political activist.

Roberto, it was you who started the accusations, and you who set the tone. You have been conducting a campaign to silence people by trying to discredit them rather than their arguments.

You do support maintaining Israel as a Jewish state, do you not? I have asked you this question before, but you have not responded to my question. If you do support maintaining Israel as a Jewish state, then you are practicing racism and the privileging of one group over another. Do you or do you not support maintaining a Israel as a Jewish state?

As to the accusation that you have lied about me, a thorough look at your posting history will back me up on that one.


14 Jun 10 - 01:38 PM (#2927654)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

"Thank you for you rap and kind suggestion, but the place of CarolC's fan has already been taken, by Lox."

I'm glad you took my post in good humour Roberto! But I'm still not inclined to discuss CarolC or her posting habits or even pressing issues concerning her breakfast cereal, as this thread isn't about her. I read her posts the same as I read everyone else's and I weigh up what she has to say along with everything else posted here - as I'm sure we all do.

As for Lox, he can speak for himself. But no doubt if he disagreed with CC on something, he'd argue against it exactly the same as with any other poster.

And that's as much as I have to say about the fascinating CarolC :)


14 Jun 10 - 01:45 PM (#2927662)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I have just seen evidence that the footage that the government of Israel released showing the passengers on the Mavi Marmara attacking the Israelis was faked. The footage I saw shows that the ship in the Israeli footage is not the Mavi Marmara, and suggests that it is a sister ship to the Mavi Marmara (very similar, but not identical), that was recently sold.

I am hesitant to post the video, because the person speaking engages in some speculation about Jewish mythology that I can't verify, and so I'm reluctant to pass that along. But if pictures of both ships are examined, you can see that the ship in the Israeli video is not the Mavi Marmara.


14 Jun 10 - 01:50 PM (#2927669)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

CarolC, I've already explained my opinions on this twice, the second time in a reply to Little Hawk. I'll do it again (now I'm going to watch Italy vs Paraguay). I find comical the way you ask questions playing the Spanish Inquisition. Imagine what would you say if I'd make use of this technique with you: double moral, as I said. You deserve respect (because of you advocacy for human rights around the world etc), while the person that disagrees with you deserves a Spanish Inquisition treatment (Monty Python's version).


14 Jun 10 - 01:54 PM (#2927675)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

What does "double moral" mean? I don't think that translates directly from the Italian very well.


14 Jun 10 - 02:01 PM (#2927680)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

I mean when you apply a moral standard to your party and a different one to your opponents. You are free to offend your antagonists, but woe betide if they say something that could possibly be regarded as an insult.


14 Jun 10 - 02:03 PM (#2927684)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

Ah. The English term is "double standard".


14 Jun 10 - 02:09 PM (#2927689)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

Thanks mousethief.


14 Jun 10 - 02:09 PM (#2927690)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

I hope no-one minds me repeating this query, but it may have got lost.

I'm interested to know if - as indeed the organisers hoped and requested - the prayers from Jewish Rabbis on behalf of the flotilla victims which was supposed to have been held in front of the White House yesterday, was actually reported anywhere in the US either nationally or locally? I Googled earlier today and couldn't find any news stories about it. Maybe people in the US will be able to enlighten?


[Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister - PM
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 07:02 AM

Further to American media failure to report dissenting Jewish voices, this event was held yesterday:

Washington: Jewish Rabbis to lead prayers for Gaza aid flotilla victims

Quote: "The organisers say: "If you can't come - you can still help: by insisting that national media and your local media and the progressive media as well cover this event - it's a way of making clear that the entire Jewish people should not be blamed for this morally distorted action on the part of Israel - and you don't have to be Jewish to make that point to the media." "

Fromm Googling I didn't find too much about it, bar this and a brief article in the Jerusalem Post.

Was it covered anywhere?]


14 Jun 10 - 02:16 PM (#2927693)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

Googling Jewish Rabbis prayer Gaza June 14" turned up absolutely nothing.


14 Jun 10 - 02:18 PM (#2927696)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll

"I mean when you apply a moral standard to your party and a different one to your opponents."
Like if you condemn Terrorist tactics by, say, the IRA or Hamas and excuse incidents like Sabra and Shatila because it was a part of the defence of Israel, do you mean - plenty of examples of that.
Sorry Roberto; haven't had time to check your claim that you haven't accused anybody of anti-Semitism - if I am mistaken, I apologise in advance
Jim Carroll


14 Jun 10 - 02:27 PM (#2927703)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief

Googling Rabbis Gaza did not turn up any story on the protest on the AP website, nor on the BBC News website.


14 Jun 10 - 02:29 PM (#2927705)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

CarolC, I've already explained my opinions on this twice, the second time in a reply to Little Hawk. I'll do it again (now I'm going to watch Italy vs Paraguay). I find comical the way you ask questions playing the Spanish Inquisition. Imagine what would you say if I'd make use of this technique with you: double moral, as I said. You deserve respect (because of you advocacy for human rights around the world etc), while the person that disagrees with you deserves a Spanish Inquisition treatment (Monty Python's version).


You said you were going to answer my question again. I don't see an answer here. I only see a deflection of the question.

I also notice you don't mind playing the Spanish Inquisition with others. I guess it's ok for you to expect other people to answer your questions, but asking questions of you is the "Spanish Inquisition". Interesting double standard there.

In the absence of an honest answer to my question, and in light of the fact that you are defending the behavior of the government of Israel, drawing the conclusion that you support maintaining Israel as a Jewish state is pretty unavoidable.


14 Jun 10 - 02:31 PM (#2927708)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I have to backtrack on my post about the ships not being the same. It's possible that the differences between the ships can be accounted for by the fact that the Israeli footage was taken through some kind of night vision technology. Until I see more evidence that can't be accounted for in this way, I'm not going to venture to say whether or not the ships are the same.


14 Jun 10 - 02:39 PM (#2927714)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

Cheers Mousethief, I've found virtually nothing likewise.

I stumbled on this Washington: Jewish Rabbis to lead prayers for Gaza aid flotilla victims while Googling around subjects to do with the flotilla. Asa said, in particular this quote caught my attention:

"The organisers say: "If you can't come - you can still help: by insisting that national media and your local media and the progressive media as well cover this event - it's a way of making clear that the entire Jewish people should not be blamed for this morally distorted action on the part of Israel - and you don't have to be Jewish to make that point to the media." ".

Consequently I've been curious to know if the story has actually been covered in the media anywhere. Doesn't look like so far.


14 Jun 10 - 02:44 PM (#2927723)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I haven't seen any mention of it in the corporate US media.

We are literally under a media blackout here with regard to things like that. They are in Israel, as well. A witness at one of the demonstrations against the flotilla massacre in Israel said that Israeli media showed up in the area where the protests were taking place, but aimed the cameras away from the crowds, giving the impression that no one was protesting. And the caption supported that misinformation.


14 Jun 10 - 03:19 PM (#2927752)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

Mousethief,

"You have confused "have the worst human rights conditions" with "commit the most human rights violations." Most of the US's human rights violations are overseas, so we can't be said to have the worst human rights "conditions" in this country."

Bingo!


14 Jun 10 - 03:58 PM (#2927767)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

CC: "I haven't seen any mention of it in the corporate US media.
We are literally under a media blackout here with regard to things like that."

Aye, so I'm coming to realise. This must feel profoundly oppressive for conscientious Jews who strive to have their voices publicly heard, but are silenced just because they don't say what the establishment wants them to.

"They are in Israel, as well."

I've seen YouTube videos of protests at the flotilla attack in Israel, where protesters describe equivalent issues there regards the mainstream media towing the government line. The protesters say they know that the mainstream media won't cover their protest, but depend on the role of 'social media' for communicating their efforts to the public at large.


14 Jun 10 - 04:14 PM (#2927775)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Aye, so I'm coming to realise. This must feel profoundly oppressive for conscientious Jews who strive to have their voices publicly heard, but are silenced just because they don't say what the establishment wants them to.

I'm sure it does, but it's not the worst they have to deal with. It is an extremely common experience for Jews who speak out to be blacklisted for jobs, especially if they work in the media, and to be ostracized from their communities and even sometimes their families. And they are constantly being called things like "self-hating Jew" and "kapo" and other kinds of character assassination. Recently I was contacted in a private message in Facebook by a Jewish person who thought I was Jewish. He called me a self-hating Jew and a kapo.

This is why I have the most respect for Jews who are doing this important work. Because they have a lot more to lose than most of us when they speak out.


14 Jun 10 - 04:32 PM (#2927790)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

"It is an extremely common experience for Jews who speak out to be blacklisted for jobs, especially if they work in the media, and to be ostracized from their communities and even sometimes their families."

Yeah, I saw another YouTube (wish I had bookmarked some of these things) where yet another (silent in the face of abuse) protest by American Jewish objectors to Israel's actions in Gaza (mainly women I think) were being heckled and abused by other Jews who were filming and photographing, them while shouting out:

"We will find out where you live! We will disrupt your lives!", "We know who you are!" "We will disrupt your social lives"

and so-on.


14 Jun 10 - 05:52 PM (#2927844)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Lots more flotillas and aid convoys on the way, and quite a few lawsuits, too...

http://palestinechronicle.com/view_article_details.php?id=16049


14 Jun 10 - 09:00 PM (#2927937)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""It arouses my indignation when I hear, or read, of people that profess to be human rights champions and show no sympathy nor interest for the suffering in the world if not caused by the US and Israel.""

Of course this story engages the attention of people posting to this thread, just as it does the attention of people watching it on the news media.

It is after all the story which is currently unfolding, as well as being the topic of this thread.

If the thread were about other atrocities, it is those events we would be discussing.

You, Roberto, seem to be suffering from the fallacious belief that sticking to the topic of a thread is somehow an indication of lack of interest in anything else.

Broaden your education by looking at some of the threads which are not about your heroes, and you will find that we all contribute to many threads on many subjects.

Just like you, we all have lives outside of Mudcat, and some of us are very active in other areas of support for human rights, so you are simply not qualified to comment on our attitudes, because you know nothing about us.

However, we are in a position to note that you are a determined apologist for the Israeli government, and the IDF, and also that you make determined attempts to distract attention from the actions of Israeli forces, by attempting to take the thread off topic, and introduce other human rights abuses. This is not opinion, it is fact. It can be proven by even a cursory examination of your posts here.

So we have a greater understanding of who and what you are, than you can possibly claim to have about who and what we are.

If there are other issues which you think should be discussed, start your own threads, and you will find that they will be discussed.

Those issues are of great importance to us, as well as to you, but you cannot conduct a serious and coherent debate on a dozen different subjects in one thread.

This thread is about Israel,so naturally that country is mentioned quite a lot.

Don T.


15 Jun 10 - 01:56 AM (#2928078)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

A Hamas leader gets a chance to speak to the people of the US


15 Jun 10 - 05:03 AM (#2928128)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Carol, you have been very open in your thoughts about the landing video being fake.
Should we take it that you consider the bahaviour of the activists to have been so bad that the Israelis might have staged it to discredit them?
But they did not need to stage it did they. The activists really were that vicious in their unprovoked attack on the boarding party.

If the walking through iron video does turn out to be staged, the behaviour of the fake activists is nowhere near as bad as that of the real ones!

Just yesterday you were talking about six or more activists being missing. Do you stand by that?
Do you now accept the the video you posted of Israelis shooting a helpless young activist shows no such thing.
Are you aware that many people think that that the ladder scene shows red paintball strikes not blood, as you did at first?
That would leave no evidence at all of pre-landing live fire.


15 Jun 10 - 05:13 AM (#2928131)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox

"Do you now accept the the video you posted of Israelis shooting a helpless young activist shows no such thing."

Not established.

The best you have is your reasons for doubting it.

"Are you aware that many people think that that the ladder scene shows red paintball strikes not blood, as you did at first?"

Paint balls do not 'squirt' vast quantities of liquid in the way that that liquid has clearly squirted and poured.

They produce concentrated spots.

"That would leave no evidence at all of pre-landing live fire."

Not true, there is still the eyewiness testimony of the Israeli commander who admits firing 'warning shots' as well as the eyewitnes testimony of scores of passengers from numerous unrelated backgrounds which correlates.


I am curious as to what might make you think that any of your debating adversaries on here might have changed their minds as no new evidence has been presented to refute their position.


15 Jun 10 - 05:42 AM (#2928142)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Lox, the weapon in the supposed murder video is not a 9mm weapon or a paintball gun.
Eight deaths were caused by 9mm, and one by a modified paintball round.
The video does not show a killing.

The ladder scene does show several concentrated re splodges on the bulkhead which are very unlikely to result from running down from the hatch.

Warning shots are not incoming fire. Eyewitnesses also reported activists being thrown in the sea. Both sides lie.

I know that people with closed and blinkered minds will never change their opinions.


15 Jun 10 - 06:11 AM (#2928151)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

In the longer version of the ladder scene, one eyewitness says it is blood, but another eyewitness says paint.


15 Jun 10 - 06:42 AM (#2928161)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B

(Israeli) "Foreign Ministry officials cautioned representatives of the defense establishment that it would be difficult to justify a military operation outside of Israel's territorial waters from both a political and public relations standpoint.

Thus, according to senior figures familiar with the details of the discussions, the Foreign Ministry urged defense officials to launch their operations to stop the flotilla only after the ships had crossed Gaza's maritime boundaries. The ministry's diplomats repeated this request on more than one occasion.

"IF SOMEBODY BREAKS INTO YOUR HOME AND YOU SHOOT HIM AFTER HE ENTERS THE DOORWAY, THERE'S NO PROBLEM IN JUSTIFYING THIS ACTION IN COURT," SAID A SENIOR MINISTRY OFFICIAL. "BUT IF YOU ATTACK THE BURGLAR WHILE HE IS ON HIS WAY TO YOUR HOUSE AT A DISTANCE OF TWO BLOCKS AWAY, THEN YOU HAVE A PROBLEM."

"It was made clear that we can ultimately prove that we acted according to international law, but this will be very complicated and we will absorb many denunciations along the way," the official said."

[From the Israeli newspaper Haaretz reporting on the raid on the flotilla]


Israel immediately attempted to control the coverage of the whole operation by holding the human rights activists incommunicado for several days and by taking all the passengers' recording devices and videos.
In this way the well funded propaganda operation was able to spread its version of events without challenge in the crucially important first few days.

Unlike most of the U.S. mainstream media that simply reprinted Israeli military sources, a few reporters including Max Blumenthal actually investigated some of the Israeli claims.
They found several Israeli misrepresentations (including the infamous doctoring of the released audio tape which claimed to be the radio communication with the Marmara)
As a result, Israel retracted or clarified some of its key false charges.

Blumenthal said: "The lesson of the debacle is that nothing the IDF [the Israeli military] says can be trusted by anyone. Not ever."


Most of the activists are now free and their stories strongly contradict the Israeli version.

However, since many of the mainstream media have now moved on to other stories, Israel's false version of events is still out there and accepted as gospel by many - as this thread serves to demonstrate


15 Jun 10 - 07:03 AM (#2928165)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Both sides lie.


15 Jun 10 - 11:47 AM (#2928292)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

Don(Wyziwyg)T
- True, the two threads got mixed up, I'm not the only one who contributed to the confusion, sorry for that, the operation was a plot you foiled.
- Among the other things you write, some you-don't-know-who-I-am stuff I won't reply to, and a double standard masterpiece: "you are simply not qualified to comment on our attitudes, because you know nothing about us. However, we are in a position to note that you are a determined apologist for the Israeli government, and the IDF".

Jim Carroll
Talking about double standard, you write: "like if you condemn Terrorist tactics by, say, the IRA or Hamas and excuse incidents like Sabra and Shatila because it was a part of the defence of Israel". I've no doubt Sabra and Chatila was an enormous and unjustifiable horror, I accept your definition.

CarolC
-        "You said you were going to answer my question again. I don't see any answer here". I appreciate you didn't call me a liar this time. I had written yesterday I was going away from where I have my PC to watch the football game; today I've been to Rome to attend a Union demonstration; now I'm back and ready to answer your question.
-        I may be wrong, but your question didn't sound like a genuine question in a free search for the truth, but looked more like an interrogation to check if I conform to a correct creed, that someone pretends to be the keeper of, on Israel, the Naqba, etc, to get the qualification Don(Wyziwyg)T talks about. That's why I was perplexed, you know, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.
Israel/Palestine. I support the Two-State solution. Israel and Palestine. I agree with T. L. Friedman, who some years ago wrote, in an article I've lost (and would like to find again: if someone has it, please tell me), that this solution would mean One State Each, not One and a Half. Not Israel plus the Colonies, nor Palestine plus the mass of the Palestinian refugees returning to Israel instead of to the new Palestinian state. Israel would have to shrink a bit, while Palestine would have to accept the exchange land-for-peace. Another possible solution, in my opinion, is that the Arab state be formed by the new Palestinian part (West Bank and Gaza) unified in a single state with Jordan.


15 Jun 10 - 11:52 AM (#2928298)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Carol, you have been very open in your thoughts about the landing video being fake.

No I haven't. I posted a video that looked like it proved that the landing video was faked, but I retracted that when I realized that the differences in the ships could be accounted for by the fact that the Israeli video was taken using night vision technology.


Should we take it that you consider the bahaviour of the activists to have been so bad that the Israelis might have staged it to discredit them?

This makes no sense. If their behavior was so bad, the Israelis wouldn't have needed to stage it, would they? The Israelis would need to stage things if the behavior wasn't as bad as the Israelis want us to think it was. And there are still some questions I have based on the video I saw that purported to prove that the landing video was a fake. For instance, the Israeli who was being "thrown overboard". As they said in the video, it doesn't look so much like he's being thrown overboard as it does like he is being let down gently into a lifeboat. So don't have an opinion at this time about whether or not that video was in any way faked, but I do consider it a possibility.


The activists really were that vicious in their unprovoked attack on the boarding party.

The attack was not unprovoked. The Israelis fired first.


Just yesterday you were talking about six or more activists being missing. Do you stand by that?

I have seen different numbers being reported, so I have avoided putting any number. I have consistently said "several". I have not seen any reports that say they have been found. If you have, perhaps you will post them in this thread.


Do you now accept the the video you posted of Israelis shooting a helpless young activist shows no such thing.

Not until I get more information.


Are you aware that many people think that that the ladder scene shows red paintball strikes not blood, as you did at first?

Yes, but that doesn't make them right. And I thought that at first, too, after seeing the lower resolution video. Then I saw the video in a higher resolution and I could see the amount of the red fluid and the way it was running down the wall coming from an open hatch. Paint ball pellets don't behave in that way. This is how they behave. There is a round pattern with streaks radiating outward from a central spot. And they don't cover very much area.


15 Jun 10 - 11:56 AM (#2928301)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

"Paint ball pellets don't behave in that way"

But didn't YOU say that they were NOT normal paintball pellets? Have you changed your mind on this?


15 Jun 10 - 11:56 AM (#2928302)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

I support the Two-State solution. Israel and Palestine. I agree with T. L. Friedman, who some years ago wrote, in an article I've lost (and would like to find again: if someone has it, please tell me), that this solution would mean One State Each, not One and a Half. Not Israel plus the Colonies, nor Palestine plus the mass of the Palestinian refugees returning to Israel instead of to the new Palestinian state. Israel would have to shrink a bit, while Palestine would have to accept the exchange land-for-peace. Another possible solution, in my opinion, is that the Arab state be formed by the new Palestinian part (West Bank and Gaza) unified in a single state with Jordan.

Roberto, I appreciate this non-confrontational response from you.

I still need to know, if I am to understand that you are not promoting supremacism, whether or not you feel that the part that remains Israel in the two state solution that you envision, would remain a "Jewish state", and maintain a Jewish majority there.


15 Jun 10 - 11:58 AM (#2928303)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

But didn't YOU say that they were NOT normal paintball pellets? Have you changed your mind on this?

I said there were reports that they contained glass fragments. I don't see how glass fragments would alter the splatter pattern of the paint, or significantly alter the paint's behavior in any way.


15 Jun 10 - 12:04 PM (#2928306)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

"I don't see how glass fragments would alter the splatter pattern of the paint, or significantly alter the paint's behavior in any way. "


I do. Even if the paint was the same, which has not been established, the patterns would be different. If fact, the pattern that YOU describe as seeing would indicate that there were NO glass fragments, and a marking dye was being used ( to identify the targets post-action) rather than paint ( which is easily removed). No proof either way, but have you considered anything other than what you decided is the only allowable case?

YOU keep making pronouncements as to what things MUST be, without considering what they MIGHT be.


15 Jun 10 - 12:12 PM (#2928314)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

Israel, the existing Israel, the State of Israel, the member of the UN.


15 Jun 10 - 12:14 PM (#2928316)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

beardedbruce, perhaps you can explain to me how a paintball pellet that contains glass fragments could hit a wall and explode and not leave a pattern like the ones in the picture I posted in my response to Keith. Explain how glass fragments would alter the behavior of any liquid substance that is projected at high velocity in pellet form against a hard surface like a wall, impacting it, exploding, and leaving its liquid substance on the wall. How would the presence of glass fragments negate the tendency of things that hit a hard surface at high velocity to want to spread outward in a radiating pattern? Any time something that contains liquid or any other fragmentable substance hits a hard surface at high velocity, it forms a pattern that radiates away from the point of impact. Even human bodies falling from tall buildings. How would the presence of glass fragments alter this behavior?


15 Jun 10 - 12:15 PM (#2928317)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC

Israel, the existing Israel, the State of Israel, the member of the UN.

Right. Would this Israel be a "Jewish state"? And would it maintain a Jewish majority?


15 Jun 10 - 12:24 PM (#2928322)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto

I think I've answered yet. Now my turn to ask: do you want the missing State of Palestine to be built, or the existing State of Israel to be turned into something different?


15 Jun 10 - 12:24 PM (#2928323)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Look at the video clip here.
It contains a sequence deleted from both versions you posted Carol.
Inbetween the ladder and the laser spot sequences, at about 39 minutes.
The cameraman investigates and pronounces it to be paint.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:5tTjSO542VYJ:israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2010/06/raw-video-from-mavi-marmara.


15 Jun 10 - 12:25 PM (#2928325)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce

CarolC,

And would Jordan remain an ARAB state, and have an Arab Moslim majority?

The 1923 treaty creating Jordan as the ARAB MOSLIM HOMELAND, and prohibiting Jews from settling there, which gave the Moslims 77% of the Mandate Palestine land, left the remaing Mandate Palestine AS THE JEWISH HOMELAND. Arab Moslims were not prohibited from settling there, but it was to be the JEWISH HOMELAND. That was the last set of boprders agreed to by BOTH sides- so I do not know why you have never answered why Israel should go to Pre-1967 borders, which the Arab nations NEVER agreed to while they existed. Look at the peace treaty between Jordan and Israel- and the treaty between Egypt and Israel.


re the pellets- the glass would cause clumping of paint, so the pattern would be different- I did NOT say it would be what you say you saw. THAT seems to be a thinner liquid than the normal paint, such as the marking dye I commented it might be- at least from your description

Try the following: take a bunch of ballons- put water with dye in some, paint in others, and paint and some sand in others. Drop them from a standard height, and see the splash patterns. Now, which looks MOST like what you claim you see?


15 Jun 10 - 12:32 PM (#2928334)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford

Carol, you were prepared to believe the landing video faked, to discredit the activists.
You must then accept that their behaviour does discredit them, because it was not faked.

The murder video does not just claim to be of a killing, but claims it to be the murder of a particular individual.
How can that not be a lie?
The only deaths were by 9mm and the one modified paintball.


15 Jun 10 - 12:33 PM (#2928335)
Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.

the State of Israel, the member of the UN

Right- the U.N. - whose sanctions, rulings & procedures israel routinely violates..............


15 Jun 10 - 12:36 PM (#2928340)
Subjec