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05 Aug 10 - 12:30 PM (#2958860) Subject: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,GloriaJ Since today is the 5th of august I took it as a good excuse to post this song on youtube - recorded it last night,just live,straight to mike, so it's not perfect.A great classic - and I still think Joseph Taylor's version has never been bettered. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZG9eTjrtlQ |
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05 Aug 10 - 01:07 PM (#2958885) Subject: RE: Brigg Fair From: The Sandman excellent. |
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05 Aug 10 - 06:32 PM (#2959048) Subject: RE: Brigg Fair From: Seayaker Great! The Frederick Delius adaptation of this is also well worth a listen. |
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06 Aug 10 - 05:58 PM (#2959746) Subject: RE: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,henryp Well done - I'm sure my Gran would have liked this. She was living in Brigg when Percy Grainger recorded Joseph Taylor. |
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11 Aug 10 - 07:13 PM (#2963259) Subject: RE: Brigg Fair From: michaelr I happened to hear the Frederick Delius piece "Brigg Fair: An English Rhapsofy" on NPR today. Very nice music, but I could not find the tune in it. |
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11 Aug 10 - 07:23 PM (#2963262) Subject: RE: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,GloriaJ I know what you mean! i do like Vaughan Williams,Butterworth,and Holst in their folksong arrangements, but I find the Delius a bit overwrought for me.he does have the tune in there, but the harmonic structure is quite wayward and adventurous. |
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09 Aug 21 - 06:32 PM (#4115961) Subject: RE: Brigg Fair From: Joe Offer There's a nice bit of work done on this song at https://mainlynorfolk.info/joseph.taylor/songs/briggfair.html Here are the lyrics we have in the Digital Tradition: BRIGG FAIR It was on the fifth of August The weather fair and mild Unto Brigg Fair I did repair For a love I was inclined I got up with the lark in the morning And my heart was full of glee Expecting there to meet my dear Long time I'd wished to see I looked over my left shoulder To see what I might see And there I spied my own true love Come a-tripping down to me I took hold of her lily-white hand And merrily sang my heart For now we are together We never more shall part For the green leaves, they will wither And the roots, they shall decay Before that I prove false to her The lass that loves me well Recorded on wax cylinder in Lincolnshire in 1905 by Percy Grainger Sung by Ian Robb & 'Finest Kind' on "Heart's Delight" and by Martin Carthy on "Byker Hill" filename[ BRIGFAIR TUNE FILE: BRIGFAIR CLICK TO PLAY oct99
Brigg FairDESCRIPTION: Singer goes to Brigg Fair expecting to meet his sweetheart; she arrives and he takes her hand, rejoicing, and hopes they will never part.AUTHOR: unknown EARLIEST DATE: 1908 (recording, Joseph Taylor); 1905 (collected from Taylor by Grainger, according to OShaughnessy-Yellowbelly1, p. 67) KEYWORDS: love courting reunion lover FOUND IN: Britain(England(Lond,South)) REFERENCES (3 citations): OShaughnessy/Grainger-TwentyOneLincolnshireFolkSongs 3, "Brigg Fair" (1 text, 1 tune) OShaughnessy-YellowbellyBalladsPart1 8, "Brigg Fair" (1 text, 1 tune) ADDITIONAL: Journal of the Folk-Lore Society, Vol. II, No. 7 (1905 (available online by JSTOR)), #2 p. 80, "Brigg Fair" (1 fragment, 1 tune) Roud #1083 RECORDINGS: Isla Cameron, "Brigg Fair" (on Lomax41, LomaxCD1741) Joseph Taylor, "Brigg Fair" (cylinder, on HiddenE) NOTES [9 words]: About as basic a story as can be, but still complete. - PJS Last updated in version 3.0 File: RcBF Go to the Ballad Search form Go to the Ballad Index Instructions The Ballad Index Copyright 2021 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle. |
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09 Aug 21 - 06:47 PM (#4115964) Subject: RE: Brigg Fair From: GeoffLawes Brigg Fair sung by Joseph Taylor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdmgUM4LbS4 |
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09 Aug 21 - 07:01 PM (#4115967) Subject: RE: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Nick Dow It's interesting to note that the tune is the B part of Dives and Lazarus, or the Chorus of Star of the County Down if you prefer. Just goes to underline the art of the traditional singer that he or she can reinvent a tune to suit an entirely different song and mood. |
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10 Aug 21 - 03:29 AM (#4116000) Subject: RE: Brigg Fair From: The Sandman Personally,I find analysing musical structure useful for working out acompaniments, however on an emotional level it can sometimes spoil my enjoyment, for me dives and lazarus is a song that i associate with the rev ken loveless.and unfortunately you have unintentionally now spoiled my enjoyment of Brigg Fair, as I had not made that musical association, between dives and lazarus and brigg fair. |
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10 Aug 21 - 04:05 AM (#4116008) Subject: RE: Brigg Fair From: Acorn4 That's a very good version. I always remember the late Brian Dawson singing this. |
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10 Aug 21 - 05:27 AM (#4116011) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,JHW Good thread this. Must be with Rev Ken Lovelace AND Brian Dawson getting a mention. Ken had a concertina with three sets of bellows. Maybe to match the treble pink gins. 5th gone now but I've got Joseph Taylor and Isla St.Clair/Cameron on LP must check. |
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10 Aug 21 - 05:57 AM (#4116015) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,JHW Only two verses by Joseph Taylor transcribed but LP is called Unto Brigg Fair. |
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10 Aug 21 - 07:13 PM (#4116093) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Nick Dow John Taylor his son had one extra (floating) verse. Recorded by Peter Kennedy I think. You'll find the recording included in McColl's song carrier programmes. |
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11 Aug 21 - 04:07 AM (#4116135) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: The Sandman i have listened carefully to Taylors version of Brigg Fair, i do not agree, i do not hear dives and lazarus in his version Sorry no offence intended, but i think they are not the same at all |
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11 Aug 21 - 09:01 AM (#4116158) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Nick Dow Bert Lloyd Folk Song in England Page 76. |
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11 Aug 21 - 10:29 AM (#4116165) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: Brian Peters To me the tune is clearly related to the second part of 'Dives' / 'County Down', in a similar way to 'Maria Martin'. It's made more interesting by several added sequences of notes, especially that climb to the 7th in bar 5, which is what really makes it special. The sharp 6th in bar 2 is tasty as well, though I believe that Taylor sang it ambiguously on at least some of the various recordings. Delius renders it as a sharp. John Taylor his son had one extra (floating) verse. Recorded by Peter Kennedy I think. I've not been able to find that in the Kennedy collection at the BL, but Grainger did note another version from Mr Deene, to the same tune and including the same two stanzas (with a few detail differences, e.g. 'fine and fair' for 'hot and fair'). No recording in the BL. In his field notes Grainger states that 'Mr Taylor believed that the words went on to tell of the couple walking along the Wrawby Road'. |
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11 Aug 21 - 11:00 AM (#4116168) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Nick Dow Hi Brian, I'll send you the John Taylor version. I may have been wrong about Kennedy, that was from memory. |
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11 Aug 21 - 11:22 AM (#4116173) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: Reinhard According to Ruairidh Greig in a comment to Andy Turner's Brigg Fair A Folk Songs a Week blog, the Folktrax cassette 45-135 (Brigg Fair- Joseph Taylor) has a recording of John Taylor, so we can assume that it was made by Peter Kennedy, and possibly is the 1944 BBC recording that Andy Turner mentioned. |
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11 Aug 21 - 12:51 PM (#4116180) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Nick Dow Are Grainger's Field notes on The Full English? I've sent you the file Brian. |
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11 Aug 21 - 01:24 PM (#4116183) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: Brian Peters Thanks Nick, received in good order. How curious - five verses in all, but none about walking to Wrawby! Since most (all?) of them are floating verses, I'm wondering whether John added them himself, to make a song better suited to performance. He's not a bad singer, though he slows down noticeably to fit in the ornament at the end of the verse. Yes, the detail about Joseph's 3rd verse is at the VWML. It seems to be pretty much unique to J & J Taylor, and Mr Deene. Brigg Fair at the VWML |
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11 Aug 21 - 01:47 PM (#4116184) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,# Sorry if this duplicates a post. https://books.google.ca/books?id=HK93DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA215&lpg=PA215&dq=in+what+year+was+brigg+fair+on+the+5th+of+august?&source=bl& See p.215. |
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11 Aug 21 - 02:09 PM (#4116185) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: Brian Peters Thanks, #. So it was Grainger himself who added those extra verses. The link I made above doesn't seem to open the full search data. Putting 1083 in the Roud No. box will get you there, though. |
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11 Aug 21 - 03:02 PM (#4116194) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Nick Dow The extra verse is sung by John Taylor. Was it got from Dad or Grainger? If it was Grainger that opens up a tin of worms on the subject of what the collector leaves behind him (or her). That controversial word 'Kennedy' keeps rearing it's head. |
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11 Aug 21 - 04:05 PM (#4116201) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: The Sandman in my opinion , dives and lazarus has much more in common with one of the tunes used for van diemans land. of course mathematically lots of tunes are related. but if i was to be asked for the closest relation tunewise to Dives it would be van diemans land. |
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11 Aug 21 - 04:21 PM (#4116203) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: The Sandman However, i do think what you have to say about Kennedy and joseph Taylors version is intersting, fascinating even, the other versions that MOST OF US KNOW have come across have more verses than joseph taylors two or three |
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11 Aug 21 - 06:07 PM (#4116216) Subject: ADD Version/Origins: Brigg Fair From: Joe Offer Thanks to the link from #, I was able to find and copy the applicable text from The Classical Music Lover's Companion to Orchestral Music, by Robert Philip (Yale University Press, 2018 - pp 214 ff.) BRIGG FAIR: AN ENGLISH RHAPSODY (Frederick Delius (1862-1934) In 1905, at the North Lincolnshire Music Competition held in the market town of Brigg, Joseph Taylor, aged seventy-one, won the newly established folk song section with his performance of ‘Creeping Jane’. The singing of traditional songs was in decline, and the Folk-Song Society had been founded in 1898 to collect them before they vanished. One of the Society’s leading members was the composer Percy Grainger. He had encouraged the inclusion of folk songs in the Brigg competition, and was there to note them down. After the competition, Taylor came to him and sang him ‘Brigg Fair’, which he had known since he was a child, and three years later Grainger recorded Taylor singing it, on a wax cylinder. Struck by the beauty of the song, Grainger arranged it for tenor solo with chorus, adding extra verses, and this version was performed at the Brigg competition in 1906. The following year, Delius was deeply impressed by Grainger’s arrangement of ‘Brigg Fair’ and asked permission to use the tune as the basis of an orchestral work of his own. The result was this ‘English Rhapsody’, which Delius dedicated to Grainger. Joseph Taylor travelled to London to attend the first London performance in 1908 and stayed with Grainger and his mother, ‘delighting us with his personality, which was every bit as sweet and charmful as his singing’, as Grainger remembered. At the performance, ‘When the “Brigg Fair” tune was given out at intervals by the English horn and other instruments of the orchestra, old Taylor gently “joined in” with his sweetly ringing tenor voice, to the amazement of the audience.’4 Delius’s score, published in Germany in 1910, includes six stanzas: BRIGG FAIR It was on the fifth of August The weather hot and fair Unto Brigg Fair I did repair For love I was inclined. I got up with the lark in the morning With my heart so full of glee, Of thinking there to meet my dear Long time I wished to see. I looked over my left shoulder To see whom I could see And there I spied my own true love Come tripping down to me. I took hold of her lily white hand And merrily was her heart, And now we’re met together I hope we ne’er shall part. For it’s meeting is a pleasure And parting is a grief, But an unconstant lover Is worse than any thief. The green leaves they shall wither And the branches they shall die If ever I prove false to her, To the girl that loves me. Delius may or may not have known that only the first two stanzas were from the original song sung by Taylor. The rest had been assembled by Grainger from other traditional songs in order to make a more complete narrative. Grainger, in a programme note for Delius’s rhapsody, encapsulated the appeal to both composers of the melody and its (elaborated) text: ‘a late-summer dream of morning freshness, love, peacefulness, quiet rural jollity, lazy church bells and the glowing English country-side’.5 The words of the song are happy, and Joseph Taylor in his 1908 recording sings the opening verses with a dancing lilt. To musicians reared on major and minor scales, however, the melody has an ambiguity of mood, as so many songs in the old modes seem to (‘Brigg Fair’ is in the Dorian mode). It is this that both Grainger and Delius exploit to create music full of nostalgia and a sense of impermanence – the ‘evanescence of beautiful things’, as Philip Heseltine put it. Delius’s work is scored for large orchestra, including fourteen woodwind and six horns. These are used to provide a wide range of delicate effects, only occasionally coming together for grand climaxes. Most of the piece consists of a set of variations on the melody of ‘Brigg Fair’, interspersed with contemplative passages. The opening sets a pastoral scene: a solo flute plays arabesques, accompanied by the lightest of harp arpeggios and ppp string chords. It inevitably calls to mind the opening of Debussy’s Prélude à l’après-midi d’un faune, but the sensuousness of Delius’s flute is less erotic, more rustic. As it continues it becomes more bird-like, and is joined by another flute and a clarinet as if from neighbouring trees. This gives way to the melody of ‘Brigg Fair’ on oboe, accompanied by clarinets and bassoons, followed by a set of variations on the theme. The flute takes it up, accompanied by strings, and the harmonies become more complex (they have had a nostalgic depth even from the opening bars). Then it moves to the strings in chorus, joined the next time round by flutes and clarinets. Now the melody begins to dance, with a tripping counterpoint in the violins. The counterpoint moves to flute and clarinet while horns take up the tune, and then a trumpet takes the melody to the first climax of the piece. The mood calms, and the opening flute arabesque returns for a moment. This is the beginning of an interlude. Over quiet, sustained chords, the violins sing a rising phrase, as if stretching out the opening of ‘Brigg Fair’. This little motif is repeated and developed. It passes to cor anglais, and then to a horn, all the while cushioned by the slowly shifting harmonies below. The effect is like a sustained meditation on a fine summer’s day. From the calm emerges another variation of ‘Brigg Fair’ on clarinet, with its rhythm evened out and with counterpoint on cor anglais, bass clarinet, bassoon, and horns. The effect is mellow and even ecclesiastical – a bell sounds at the end of the tune. The strings join for the next variation, and the bell sounds again. The tune changes back to its original rhythm, but now in a broader three-time, and with a new counterpoint in the violins. This rises to a climax and falls away. The tune changes again, losing its swing, and becoming a solemn procession on trumpet and trombone, punctuated by string chords and the sounding of the bell (‘slow: with solemnity’). The processional melody moves to the violins. Then there is another brief interlude, as reminders of the opening flute solo are interspersed with fragments of the tune. The woodwind return to the dancing lilt of ‘Brigg Fair’ (‘gaily’). The cellos sing it, and the whole orchestra joins in. After a moment of hesitation, the music gathers energy, accelerates, and rises to a great climax at which the bells sound, and the tune is transformed into a blazing brass chorale. Gradually the climax falls away, an oboe gently plays the tune for the last time, and with a final reminder of the opening flute arabesques, the piece comes to a quiet close. Delius: Brigg Fair, 1953 performance by the London Symphony Orchestra https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMh2R4kRcFI |
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11 Aug 21 - 07:37 PM (#4116232) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: Malcolm Storey As reported in another thread I have a recording of Brian Dawson giving a presentation on Percy Grainger at Whitby Folk Week in 2005. It includes Brigg Fair and also Creeping Jane and as noted is Gold Dust. |
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11 Aug 21 - 09:26 PM (#4116241) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: The Sandman There are three modes that occur with great regularity in the collected repertoire of melodies of British isles[geographical DEFINITION]. They are Dorian ,mixolydian and ionian, that gives a certain limitation to the variety and a certain amount of repetition musically. Dives and Lazarus,[imo] is closer musically to star of the county down lowlands of holland and van diemans land than Brigg fair. A L Lloyd may have stated something over 50 years ago, does that make it Gospel? I rely on my own ears, not Lloyds scholarship. yes most tunes in the repertoire are in 3 modes and fall in to certain musical families and some are used over again,some have bits of phrases that occur in others , some have two bars or four bars that are the same. this kind of musical analysis can be useful in learning tunes,but in my opinion can remove some of the beauty of the tunes and be reminiscent of the quote by Oscar Wilde someone who “knows the price of everything and the value of nothing” |
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12 Aug 21 - 03:43 AM (#4116253) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Nick Dow Is there a record of any other songs collected by Kennedy from John Taylor? |
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12 Aug 21 - 05:33 AM (#4116260) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: The Sandman his daughter said that john taylor was a beautiful singer.https://sounds.bl.uk/World-and-traditional-music/Peter-Kennedy-Collection/025M-C0604X0080XX-0001V0 |
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12 Aug 21 - 05:46 AM (#4116262) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,JHW Thanks to Joe for all that Delius stuff. Especially the added verses including themes which appear regularly so seem genuine. Dare say someone will know 'original' verses or claim to. Rare for me to read that much! |
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12 Aug 21 - 06:16 AM (#4116269) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: Brian Peters I don't have the Folktrax cassette, but all the notes are online. John Taylor contributes 'Brigg Fair' only, and it's not stated who recorded him in in 1944. According to Andy Turner's blog, this was a BBC recording and, since Andy also states that Joseph's grand-daughter Marion Hudson was recorded singing the same song, by Francis Collinson in 1944, I suspect that Collinson recorded John as well. Oddly, the VWML archive only lists three of Mary Taylor's songs from this album. Here are the notes - the sources of the three added verses are listed in the last paragraph: FTX-135 - UNTO BRIGG FAIR GRAINGER, DELIUS, SHARP &TAYLOR Percy Grainger recorded a number of traditional singers in Lincolnshire in 1906, of which Joseph was by far the most outstanding, both for his songs and for his singing technique. Here are 12 songs with talk about him by his daughter, Mary, recorded by Peter Kennedy in 1953. Delius used Brigg Fair for "English Rhapsody", and Joseph's son, John, and sister Mary, sing the song and talk about their father and his encounters with Percy Grainger, Frederic Delius and Cecil Sharp. Also included is an extract of Grainger's "Lincolnshire Posy". 1. BRIGG FAIR sung by Mary Taylor (age 82), rec. by Peter Kennedy, Saxby-all- Saints, 27.3.53 - 1'15" 2. Mary talks about her father, the North Lincolnshire Music Competitions, Lady Winifred & Gervase Elwes, Everard Fielding, Percy Grainger, Cecil Sharp, the singer who couldn't be stopped, and gives the names of songs recorded by her father for Percy Grainger in London, 1905/6 - 2'46" 3. BRIGG FAIR 2v sung by Joseph Taylor (75), phonographed in 1906 - 0'30" 4. Mary talks about her father singing at home, in the church choir & her brother John - 0'41" 5. BRIGG FAIR sung by John Taylor rec. Saxby-all-Saints, 1944 - 2'17" 6. Mary talks about family singing, winter evenings, the harmonium, her father playing and singing with the violin, his style "with turns and twiddles" - 2'11" 7. THE SPRIG OF THYME sung by Joseph Taylor (phonographed as above) - 1'32" 8. (BOLD) WILLIAM TAYLOR - 3'38" 9. RUFFORD PARK POACHERS - 1'32" 10. THE GYPSY'S WEDDING DAY - 1'38" 11. More talk by Mary about her father, his occupation, false accounts, birthplace and learning BRIGG FAIR, possibly from gypsies - 1'48" 12. MARIA MARTIN (or "Murder in the Red Barn") sung by Joseph Taylor - 0'42" 13. LORD BATEMAN - 1'56" 14. I WISH MY BABY LITTLE WAS BORN (or DIED FOR LOVE) - 0'57" 15. CREEPING JANE - 3'02" 16. JEALOUSY (WORCESTER CITY or POISON IN A GLASS OF WINE) - 2'38" 17. THE WHITE HARE - 2'32" 18. THE FOUR MARIES - sung by Mary Taylor - 1'04" 19. THE SPRIG OF THYME - sung by Mary Taylor - 1'21" 20. Mary talks about BRIGG FAIR, how Percy Grainger noted song & showed it to Frederic Delius, her father going to London, to the Queen's Hall for the first performance and how her father joined in, humming the tune in Dress Circle - 2'44" 21. RUFFORD PARK POACHERS - Excerpt from Percy Grainger's "Lincolnshire Posy" arranged for Wind Ensemble - 3'35" 22. LORD BATEMAN suing by Mr Thompson - 2'39" 23. GREEN BUSHES sung by Joseph Leaning - 0'54" 24. THE SHEFFIELD APPRENTICE sung by Joseph Leaning - 4'55" 25. HORKSTOW GRANGE sung by George Gouldthorpe - 1'12" 26. THE LANDLORD AND THE TENANT sung by Joseph Taylor - 0'39" 27. BOLD NEVISON sung by Joseph Taylor - 0'59" 28. LORD MELBOURNE sung by George Wray - 1'12" 29. ROBIN HOOD AND THE THREE SQUIRES sung by Dean Robinson - 2'22" 30. T'OWD YOWE WI' ONE HORN sung by Dean Robinson - 1'32" The recordings of Mary Taylor, Joseph Taylor's daughter, were made by Peter Kennedy at her home at Saxby-all-Saints on the 27th March, 1953. The recordings of Joseph Taylor and the other Lincolnshire singers were taken from gramophone copies of the original wax phonograph cylinders made in 1906. Permission for this was graciously given by Percy Grainger in 1957. Edited by Peter Kennedy and first published on Folktrax Cassettes 1979. In introducing the phonographic performances, which were issued by The Gramophone Company, 31st. July 1908, as "English Folk-Songs sung by Genuine Peasant Performers", Percy Grainger wrote: "From such records as these, art- singers can acquire the interpretative traditions and characteristics from which folksongs derive so much of their colour and charm, and folksong students, years hence, will be able to study the performances (and dialect pronounciations) of today, which contain in themselves the accumulated inventiveness and richness of past ages. "Mr. Joseph Taylor is in most respects the most exceptional folksinger I have yet heard. Although he is 75 years of age, his lovely tenor voice is as fresh as a young man's, while the ease and ring of the high notes, the freshness of his rhythmic attack, his clear intonation of modal intervals, and his finished execution of ornamental turns and twiddles (in which so many folk-singers abound) are typical of all that is best in the vocal art of the peasant traditional-singers of these islands" For the words, and other details of these songs, see The Journal of The Folk- Song Society #12 May 1908. For his choral arrangement of BRIGG FAIR, Grainger added 3 extra verses to those sung by Joseph Taylor: Verse 3 from LOW DOWN IN THE BROOM, coll. W.Percy Merrick (JFSS #3 p.94) and Verses 4 & 5 from THE MERRY KING, sung to him by Alfred Hunt of West Sussex (JFSS #12 p.224) |
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12 Aug 21 - 06:23 AM (#4116270) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: Brian Peters Regarding the tune, Grainger's notes state: "Compare tune with 'Lazarus' in English County Songs and with 'Maria Martin'". The similarity is crystal clear to me. 'Van Diemen's Land' as collected by Lucy Broadwood is also a Dorian tune, but has quite a different shape. |
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12 Aug 21 - 07:25 AM (#4116276) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Nick Dow And crystal clear to me as well. Thanks for all that Brian. I'll copy it and keep it. I already have JFS 1908. I've been interested in Collinson's collection for some time. He was worse than RVW for missing singers info but I have at least identified Charlie Wills in the London Pub Bridport in his collection, even if Mr.C. forgot to include his name. When time allows I'll revisit his collection and seek out Marion Hudson. I was unaware that Collinson recorded as well as noted down songs. Is that what you meant? |
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12 Aug 21 - 08:05 AM (#4116279) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: The Sandman firstly the tempo brigg fair is in 6/8, the tune for dives is 4/4, secondly although brigg fair finishes in the dorian it starts with the major key, dives and lazarus is a different tempo and as you say is a dorian tune THROUGHOUT, THAT DOES NOT LEAD TO CRYSTAL CLEAR SIMILARITY. we have a different tempo and a tune[ Brigg fair that ]starts off with a happy mood and finishes on the dorian, It has a mixed mood whereas dives is dark throughout , very VERY different |
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12 Aug 21 - 09:05 AM (#4116285) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Nick Dow When I've had a chance to revisit Collinson, I might start a thread for any info that's not on VWML. I don't think his collection has been published anywhere, and despite his shortcomings it might be worth trying to make order out of his song notations, just for myself rather than any project. |
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12 Aug 21 - 09:43 AM (#4116293) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: Brian Peters You're right about the change of time signature, Dick, but tunes are liable to do that, and it doesn't put them in a different tune family. The opening two bars of 'Brigg Fair' are almost identical to the second part, i.e. bars 9 - 10 of 'Lazarus'. |
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12 Aug 21 - 10:41 AM (#4116304) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: Doug Chadwick I didn't really know the song "Brigg Fair" before reading this thread but I do know "Star of the County Down". It normally takes several hearings for my ageing brain to take in a new tune but, after the mention of the similarities, I found it fairly easy to recall the new tune by reference to the other. So, for me, the two tunes are similar enough. DC |
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12 Aug 21 - 10:53 AM (#4116307) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: The Sandman we will have to disagree+, why not check the manuscripts which i have done the first bars of dives[broadwood ]are completely different are quite clearly not in a major key, however brigg fair which starts in a major key. this is a bit like the notes are the same but not in the right order, the fact that that the opening two bars of brigg fair and bars 9 and 10 of lazrus are the same notes[but in a different time does not make them the same feckin tune at all, they are also in a different tempo and have a completely different feel . brigg fair starts off in a happy mood and is bitterswett at the end . dives and lazarus is mournful miserable throughout. |
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12 Aug 21 - 10:58 AM (#4116308) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Nick Dow Kidson collected a triple time version of Maria Marten, almost identical to Brigg Fair. I'll admit to being more interested in Brigg Fair and its Gypsy origin (see above) RVW collected several Maria Marten/Lazarus tunes from the Price Jones family at 'The Homme' in Herefordshire, all of which sound similar to Brigg Fair, however I'm wondering if J.T.'s version is a local composition. None the worse for that of course. |
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12 Aug 21 - 11:15 AM (#4116311) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: The Sandman none of which makes brigg fair and the broadwood version of dives similiar, the fact that there are two bars [a minority of total bars] the same in different places, eg bars 9 and ten of lazarus and bars 1 and 2 of brigg fair ut in different tempos..doesnot make them the same tune tempo also affects mood as does the remaining bars which are the majority of the songs which are dissimiliar in tempo and feel. songs when succesful are a combination of lyrics matching the feel of the tune. brigg fairs lyrics are so completely different in feel to dives and lazarus,as are the tunes and both have tunes that are a compliment to their lyrics.and the different lyrical feel of apart from two bars repetition of notes,in different places in the songs an overall minority of bars, the feel of the lyrica and tunes are not similiar. |
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12 Aug 21 - 11:26 AM (#4116313) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: Doug Chadwick brigg fair starts off in a happy mood and is bitterswett at the end . dives and lazarus is mournful miserable throughout. "Star of the County Down" is happy throughout and uses exactly the same tune as the mournful, miserable "Dives and Lazarus", so the argument about mood doesn't hold water. DC |
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12 Aug 21 - 03:18 PM (#4116327) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: The Sandman The argument about mood does hold water because of the jig 6/8 tempo. starof the county down is not happy through out, it is no more happy than raglan road, it is about unrequited love ,Why doesn’t he approach Star of the County Down? The singer doesn’t approach his newfound beauty despite being so smitten by her, or perhaps it’s because he is so smitten. Instead, like many lovesick men before and since, he considers from afar how he might win her heart. He has our sympathy as he talks about going to the crossroads fair to impress her in his Sunday clothes. We can sympathise with him as he talks about making sheep’s eyes at her, but then he may lose us as he talks about telling her “deluding lies” to win her heart. Is that any way to treat such a beauty! |
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12 Aug 21 - 03:58 PM (#4116334) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: Big Al Whittle I did a gig in Brigg. It was the day of Diana's funeral. I put the PA up in the lounge under the telly. Before long I was singing the Wild Rover to a tearful crowd as they watched the funeral going on just above my head. |
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13 Aug 21 - 01:03 AM (#4116371) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: The Sandman well done Al |
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13 Aug 21 - 05:25 AM (#4116379) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Brian Peters Sorry, Dick, but the opening bars of 'Brigg Fair' are all in the Dorian scale. It doesn't 'start in a major key' and then change. If you're unable to hear a resemblance that Percy Grainger, Bert Lloyd, and all the other contributors to this thread have recognised, that's up to you. Secondly, there is not necessarily any relationship between the mood of a song and that of the tune. There are plenty of happy songs set to dark modal tunes and tragic ones set to jolly major ones, for example Sam Larner's murder ballad 'Pretty Polly' which goes to the tune of 'Villikins and Dinah'. 'Maria Martin' (same tune as 'Brigg Fair') isn't very happy either. |
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13 Aug 21 - 09:41 AM (#4116389) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: The Sandman Sorry Brian , the version i sing starts off clearly in c major, the opening notes are e f, then we have the first bar line then g e edc, that is quite clearly a c major chord , bar 2 then could be harmonised two ways by g or by d minor. the tune i sing does start in a major key and then chnge. bar one is harmonised with notes of a c major chord the change to a minor chord can be in bar 2 or bar 3 personally i prefer he first d in bar 2 to be harmonised with a single g note and the next d note to be harmonised with a single low aor possibly g , so i am suggesting chords rather than playing full chords. opening notes of the version i sing are not in the dorian mode. |
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13 Aug 21 - 09:48 AM (#4116390) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: The Sandman that is one of the reasons why i like the song, the change of feel from bar one to bar 3. folk songs as you know are not restricted to one version, the tune i use does not start in the dorian mode. |
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13 Aug 21 - 09:48 AM (#4116391) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: Backwoodsman Sounds like 'The Folk Process' in action... |
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13 Aug 21 - 09:49 AM (#4116392) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: Big Al Whittle I spent that day in Brigg, cos I was playing the evening and the lunchtime gig. Of course I was aware of the Brigg Fair folk song (let's hope everyone agrees its a folk song) from Carthy's version. Another place I used to go was Rufford Park. It would be nice if someone did a photographic record of all these places. |
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13 Aug 21 - 11:13 AM (#4116399) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: The Sandman yes, backwoodsman , that occurred to me too |
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13 Aug 21 - 05:25 PM (#4116441) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: The Sandman WHO is the original poster and singer |
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13 Aug 21 - 07:05 PM (#4116453) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: Ross Campbell Says "Gloria Jeffries" on the posted YouTube recording. Nice version. Sounds like a male voice to me. Ross |
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14 Aug 21 - 10:03 AM (#4116510) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: The Sandman yes familiar voice someone from yorkshire? |
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15 Aug 21 - 02:30 AM (#4116597) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,ottery Yes, I remember seeing Gloria at the Otley folk festival circa 2015. She sang a beautiful version of Green Grow the Rashes and played flute and guitar. |
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15 Aug 21 - 03:58 AM (#4116602) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: The Sandman Biggles from Bradford? well whoever he she is they do a good job of it |
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15 Aug 21 - 05:05 PM (#4116650) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Iains The Fair is an annual event held in the English market town of Brigg, North Lincolnshire, on every 5 August since 1205. It was primarily an event at which horses were bought and sold. While it is still held today, it is a shadow of its former self, The annual Fair is organised by the travelling community and it is the second largest horse fair in the country after Appleby. |
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15 Aug 21 - 06:12 PM (#4116659) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: The Sandman Just goes to underline the art of the traditional singer that he or she can reinvent a tune to suit an entirely different song and mood. quote nick dow not just the tradtional singer, but also it would seem the revival singer of tradtional songs |
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16 Aug 21 - 02:57 AM (#4116684) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Nick Dow I would take issue with the statement that it's the second largest fair, that title would go to Stowe Horse fair. Not that it matters of course. The interesting fact is that it is a charter fair and run by Travellers. This gives more credence to the 'Gypsy' origin of Taylor's source for 'Brigg Fair', and explains the unique verse. It also helps to explain the 'Maria Marten' tune which seems to be used extensively for different songs by Travellers to this day. It is also interesting to note that the second verse seems to be from 'Low down in the Broom'. That tune is also within the 'Lazarus' tune family, albeit one of the most inventive variants. None of this detracts from Taylor's rendition of the song, or his superlative performance. A highly ornamented style is unusual in English Traditional singing, and I have often speculated upon Taylor's vocal influences. Gypsy folk again? Who knows. |
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16 Aug 21 - 04:34 AM (#4116696) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST A bit of background. https://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/42959/3/30_GreigJT_Biography.pdf |
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16 Aug 21 - 04:50 AM (#4116698) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: Backwoodsman ”I would take issue with the statement that it's the second largest fair, that title would go to Stowe Horse fair.” Nick, Iains was quoting direct from Wikipedia (although, typically of him, he didn’t make it clear that his post was ‘lifted’ from another source). It’s here… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigg_Fair |
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16 Aug 21 - 05:16 AM (#4116699) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Nick Dow Thank you so much for that Guest. It answers a lot of questions but raises a few more, not all relevant to this thread. As a follow on to the Appleby fair comment, I rather think it's like a big car boot sale compared to the past. The real dealers work out at Fell End or at Lee Gap. Still worth a visit though. Which would you like all over you and your car dust or mud! Welcome to the horse fairs. |
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16 Aug 21 - 05:29 AM (#4116702) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,henryp In 2021 Appleby Horse Fair was postponed from Thursday 3rd to Sunday 6th June to Thursday 12th to Sunday 15th August to comply with government covid restrictions. Vans will now be preparing to make their way home across the north of England. |
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16 Aug 21 - 08:07 AM (#4116713) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: The Sandman Nick is it possible that Taylors style was also influenced by being a competition singer , were marks given for ornamentation? I know that CCE has influenced styles more recently because of their high marks for ornamentation, could this be an influence in Taylors case, as well as possible gypsy influence. |
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16 Aug 21 - 09:09 AM (#4116724) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Iains As I make no claim to being an encylopedia I would have thought it quite obvious I was getting the information from somewhere else, despite living within a couple of miles of Brigg for some years. Clearly my link as guest above(04:34) makes clear it is someone else's work, as is much of the factual content referred to by other posters on this thread I suggest you take your insulting behaviour below the line and out of this discussion. |
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16 Aug 21 - 09:42 AM (#4116727) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: Steve Gardham Ian, Can't see any insulting behaviour anywhere. Has it been removed by a mud-elf? Regarding horse fairs there must have been hundreds of them around the country prior to motorised transport. I believe I read somewhere that there were almost as many horses in the country at one time as there were humans. Makes sense! |
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16 Aug 21 - 10:30 AM (#4116733) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: The Sandman taylors style might be because he sang in competitions? if adjuicators were giving marks for decorative ornamentation |
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16 Aug 21 - 11:12 AM (#4116734) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: Backwoodsman ”I suggest you take your insulting behaviour below the line and out of this discussion.” Nothing insulting in my post, you had quoted verbatim from Wikipedia, and I simply clarified something which you had omitted - either by accident or deliberately - from your post. In order to avoid your delicate sensibilities being disturbed in future, I suggest you follow standard etiquette and acknowledge the source of your verbatim quotes. |
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16 Aug 21 - 12:36 PM (#4116743) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: Steve Gardham I think your comment might well have hit the nail on the head, Dick! I'd certainly like Ruairidh's comment on that one. I'm no expert on JT, like Nick just an admirer. I'm pretty sure he had sung in choirs etc. and possibly even had vocal training at some point. I can comment on his register. Any male who was used to singing in public performance pre technology era was used to using a high register for projection. This was commented on by university students in Germany during WWI who were recording foreign speakers and singers who were prisoners of war. |
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16 Aug 21 - 12:38 PM (#4116744) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Nick Dow I think all of the Chartered Fairs were Horse fairs. There were fairs scattered all over the country as you rightly say. There is one little known survival still active in Fulham on the Broadway. It's now a general auction with a few horses, but it attracts the Gypsy Folk. A chartered fair can only be abolished by act of parliament. My wife visited Topcliffe fair (Yorkshire) in the 1940's and remembers being put to bed in the old Bowtop and hearing the dealing men and horses outside all around her. The worlds best lullaby when your a five year old Gypsy girl. Topcliffe fair was abolished in the 1970's by James Callaghan. He proposed the motion backed up by an advertisement in would you believe the London Evening Standard! Of course they all get that in Yorkshire don't they? When there was no objections the fair was abolished. Loads of others went in a similar fashion. Latterly The Boswell family discovered that should a horse or animal be driven over the ground on fair day, the fair can not be abolished, and so we are hanging on to Stowe, Appleby, Lee Gap, Seamer, Priddy and Barnet. How long for I can not say. |
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16 Aug 21 - 01:01 PM (#4116747) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: RTim Nick Dow - I assume by "Stowe" you mean - Stow on the Wold..?? Tim Radford |
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16 Aug 21 - 02:33 PM (#4116752) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Nick Dow Yes Tim sorry. On twice a year May and October. It's where I collected a number of songs, even if I can't spell it correctly. |
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16 Aug 21 - 04:14 PM (#4116764) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: Steve Gardham Nick, My eldest lad lives in Barnet. When is the horse fair? |
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16 Aug 21 - 04:19 PM (#4116765) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: The Sandman Callaghan the worst labour prime minster ever imo |
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16 Aug 21 - 04:29 PM (#4116766) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,henryp https://lincolnshirefolksongs.wordpress.com/north-lincolnshire-musical-competition-1905/ In 1905, Gervase and Lady Winifride Elwes were living in the Manor House at Brigg, North Lincolnshire. A few years earlier in 1900, Lady Winifride Elwes had founded the North Lincolnshire Musical Competition, it was to become and annual event and in 1905 a folk song class was added to the competition for the first time. It was Grainger’s enthusiasm for folk song that had led the competition committee to include the class at the event. The folk song competition was reported as a novel but interesting feature. Wikipedia; Gervase Henry Cary-Elwes, DL (15 November 1866 – 12 January 1921), better known as Gervase Elwes, was an English tenor of great distinction, who exercised a powerful influence over the development of English music from the early 1900s up until his death in 1921 due to a railroad accident in Boston at the height of his career. On 12 January 1921, Elwes was killed in a horrific accident at Back Bay railway station in Boston, Massachusetts, in the midst of a high-profile recital tour of the United States at the height of his powers. Elwes and his wife had alighted on the platform when the singer attempted to return to the conductor an overcoat that had fallen off the train. He leaned over too far and was hit by the train, falling between the moving carriages and the platform. He died of his injuries a few hours later. He was 54 years old. A week after the event, Edward Elgar wrote to Percy Hull, 'my personal loss is greater than I can bear to think upon, but this is nothing – or I must call it so – compared to the general artistic loss – a gap impossible to fill – in the musical world.' |
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16 Aug 21 - 05:09 PM (#4116769) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,henryp https://lincolnshirefolksongs.wordpress.com/north-lincolnshire-musical-competition-1905/ The Yorkshire Post from 12th April 1905 states: ‘A good deal of interest was taken in the folk song competition. The Prizes were offered for the best unpublished old Lincolnshire folk song or plough song and marks were allotted for the excellence of the song rather than its actual performance. Four competitors turned up and between them sang about ten songs, all of them genuine folk songs.' Percy Grainger had arrived at the competition on the first day and had performed in a concert that afternoon. He attended the folk song competition which was being held at The Corn Exchange in Brigg, and was being judged by Frank Kidson. The Corn Exchange was demolished in 1995. |
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16 Aug 21 - 05:25 PM (#4116774) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: The Sandman yes, but that does not mean that Taylor did not develop his style to win previous competitions, also we do not know whether Kidson was not influenced by perfomance as well, despite what the yorkshire post said about the rules, it is difficult not to be influenced by good perfomance and judge purely on the song |
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16 Aug 21 - 05:37 PM (#4116778) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Nick Dow If its on this year it's the first week end in September. It's was in Mays Lane Barnet. I believe the date was altered a while ago and then reinstated. If you are interested in a Yorkshire Fair, Lee Gap at West Ardsley is the one. It's a small old fashioned fair, with no stalls selling jeans or plastic rubbish. It's all gypsy orientated and there are some fine wagons its usually on twice a year in August and September. Usually the 17th of September. If it's on Steve I could meet you there. |
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16 Aug 21 - 05:41 PM (#4116780) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Nick Dow Just checked Yes it's on. Friday 17th of September. A word to the wise, don't get stuck in the mud, it will cost a small fortune to be towed out. Park locally and walk if you can. Lee Gap is the real deal, like Appleby was in the 1950's. |
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16 Aug 21 - 05:43 PM (#4116781) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Nick Dow Sorry about the small G for Gypsy above, I mistyped, I'm ashamed of myself! |
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16 Aug 21 - 06:11 PM (#4116787) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,henryp We'll have to establish that there were previous folk song competitions and that Joseph Taylor took part. From Joseph Taylor from Lincolnshire, a Biographical Study by Ruairidh Greig; Saxby All Saints was a musical village. In addition to the church choir in which Joseph Taylor sang, the village had a choral society, which, for many years took part in local competitions. His children, James, John, Annie and Mary Ann were all singers. So when Gervase Elwes, a nationally known tenor, his wife Winifred and her brother Everard Fielding wanted to gather support for the first North Lincolnshire Music Festival in 1900, Saxby was an obvious point of call. The organisers initially cycled round the area training village choirs and then acquired a motor-bike, behind which Lady Winifred was towed on her push-bike. In the Festivals before 1905, the Taylor family competed in a number of sections. For example, in 1904 John won the Tenor Solo section with the song “Come Ye Children”, and Annie and Mary Ann, with Miss Ashton, came second in the Female Voice Trio with “Queen of Fresh Flowers”. The Saxby choir came first in the Hymn and Chant sections that year. Winifred Elwes gives the credit for introducing the folksong section in the 1905 Festival to Percy Grainger and her brother Everard, “who had become infected by Mr Cecil Sharpe’s (sic) enthusiasm”. According to Marion Hudson, her grandfather had to be persuaded to enter: “No compliment had any affect and Grandpa was adamant - he wasn’t a public singer, he only sang because he wished to. Lady Elwes and her brother cycled from Brigg many times and at last, to please her, much against his inclination, he at long last consented.” |
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16 Aug 21 - 06:38 PM (#4116791) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,# I don't know if the following has been posted. If so then just ignore it. Rufford Park Poachers - Joseph Taylor (1908) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4f6pXtZ2EEA |
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17 Aug 21 - 07:44 AM (#4116835) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: Brian Peters Always good to hear that track again, #. Lovely ornament on the very first note - I doubt he picked that up from Gervase Elwes! |
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17 Aug 21 - 09:20 AM (#4116846) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,# A little off topic here, Brian, but I was just listening to your rendition of The Wild Rover (a song I've never cared for), and it's beautiful. (It was your performance from 2016 in Australia.) Anyway, this is just a brief note to say thank you. |
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17 Aug 21 - 09:41 AM (#4116851) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: Steve Gardham Yes, wonderful stuff, but there actually isn't a great deal of decoration. What there is is a combination of tremelo which comes with the high register, and the fairly common affectation among some country singers of the extra syllables, i.e., Bodld for bold etc. I'd love to see a study on this. It would be very worthwhile. Ruairidh where are you? |
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17 Aug 21 - 06:15 PM (#4116907) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: Brian Peters Quite right, Steve. Grainger notated an ornament on the first word of verses 1 and 2 and nothing else that I can make out by way of decoration - he doesn't seem to mark the bleats. On 'Brigg Fair' there are more ornaments, though they differ from one version to another (Grainger recorded it several times and notated four of them, or so it seems from a quick glance), so 'fifth' and 'fair' are often decorated but sometimes not, while 'glee' is always decorated but not in the exact same way. Interestingly, his son John did something different again, rather less effortlessly. Thanks # for those kind words. |
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18 Aug 21 - 04:10 AM (#4116943) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,henryp From Joseph Taylor from Lincolnshire, a Biographical Study By Ruairidh Greig Joseph Taylor was born at Binbrook [15 miles south-east of Brigg] in the Lincolnshire Wolds, an area of rolling chalk hills, on the 10th December 1833. The National School was not opened until 1843 and so it is unlikely that Joseph would have had formal education beyond that which was offered by the local Sunday school. One consequence of being an “open” village was that Binbrook had its own hiring fair, the “Stattis” or Statute fair at which local farmers would select their labourers. Joseph’s early working life in the area was as an agricultural labourer. In 1851 he was one of 12 labourers employed by John Fieldsend on his farm at Orford, a hamlet north of Binbrook. At the age of 17, he was already taking an interest in music. According to Mrs Hudson in her unpublished biography, Joseph Taylor would often walk to Grimsby and back, a round trip of about 20 miles, to attend a concert. From A Folk Song A Week by Andy Turner; And here’s Mrs Hudson’s account of how Joseph Taylor learned “that song” The manner in which Grandpa learnt the song is a fascinating story. One evening when he returned from work, his mother told him that the gipsies had arrived, as they did each year at that time. The same thing would be happening to other tribes around North Lincolnshire as Brigg was annual meeting point where they gathered to exchange news and have jollifications – they still do. He had been awaiting their arrival with impatience, since he loved their singing. So as soon as possible he dashed off to the “pit” where he knew they would make camp. Straight up the steep main road to his stand-point, a gate on the right-hand side. This led to a rough cart track on the edge of the field leading to the pit. The next night he went again, but being braver, this time he went along the track to the second gate which was the entrance to the pit. Now he could see the camp and its occupants. The following night he perched there again, little thinking what the consequences would be, not only to him but to all lovers of Folk Music. As soon as he was settled on top of the gate, he saw the leader of the group coming towards him. At first he thought he was going to be sent away, but no! the man was smiling and obviously not hostile. When he reached the gate he said “Young man, you like our singing.” It was a statement not a question. The gipsies had obviously been aware of him the previous evenings. He had been on trial and passed the test. Music is a wonderful leveller and in no condescending manner but with dignity, the lad was invited to join the revels. He was led into the camp by the “King” and received as an honoured guest. He was seated beside the King, in the circle around the camp fire, on which the evening meal was cooking. Song followed song and in later years he sang them to his grandchildren. The song, Brigg Fair, was sung by one of the young gipsies and obviously came from the heart. |
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18 Aug 21 - 09:24 AM (#4116963) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: Steve Gardham Wow! That's a great testimony. |
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18 Aug 21 - 10:16 AM (#4116966) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Nick Dow Very interesting. I wonder where 'The pit' was. In those days c.1850, the Gypsy Folk would have been in tents not wagons, and would by necessity camp near to running water. They would also need grazing for the horses. I'll try and do a bit or research. |
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18 Aug 21 - 10:36 AM (#4116969) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Nick Dow It could be Gravel Pit Hill near Brigg. Might make sense as there could have been work there. I believe the above account, please don't get me wrong, but the more information that can be found the more chance we can have of understanding the origin of the song and which family of Gypsies sang it. So thank you Henry for posting it. |
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18 Aug 21 - 02:13 PM (#4116986) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,henryp http://epns.nottingham.ac.uk/browse/Lincolnshire/Binbrook/58f86705756ff4cf42466ab8-Chalk+pit Survey of English Place-Names Historical Forms 1820 Tur Etymology Chalk pit 1820 Brief record of a chalk pit in Binbrook in 1820, including a location plan. Binbrook lies in the Lincolnshire Wolds, so there may well have been more than one. |
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18 Aug 21 - 03:56 PM (#4116994) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Iains Pits in north Lincolnshire could cover multiple possibilities. Clay pits were hand dug for tile and brick but this was pretty much confined to the Humber bank.(The resulting lakes can be seen either side of the Humber bridge on google earth.) The last one closed about 30 years ago on the Humber bank but I believe Sandtoft is still operating in Goxhill. There are major excavations in the Chalk for cement making, again on the Humber bank at south Ferriby. The early iron industry obtained ore from pits initially, before underground mining started in earnest, and was accompanied by a huge opencast mine at winterton(since filled in as waste cells with a gas gathering system and generating capacity of a couple of megawatts. The source of the iron was the lower lias and I believe this is a little to the west of brigg, but without a map I cannot be sure. Small furnaces have been found north of scunthorpe dating to Roman times. Other pits were dug for road metal and the presence of Phosphate nodules may well have led to their extraction via pits for agricultural use. A bit more info on pits in the link where it is stated that pit was synonymous with quarry. This makes far more sense for camping. The quarry at North Cave just over the Humber Bridge could have held many people if camping. This one also was lost to landfill. https://www.ldwa.org.uk/ldp/downloads/OpencastWay.pdf |
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18 Aug 21 - 04:12 PM (#4116996) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Iains I forgot the obvious. https://glnp.org.uk/images/uploads/services/geodiversity-strategy/building-stones-web.pdf |
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18 Aug 21 - 06:10 PM (#4117005) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Nick Dow Thank you Henry and Iains. Since you have taken all this trouble I will tell you what I can read so far. Firstly we know the date that Joseph Taylor heard Brigg Fair. It was on or about the 5th of August, as the song says. The Travellers were camped for Brigg Fair, as explained above by Mrs. Hudson. Secondly we know that the 'Pit' was their traditional camping ground, and it must have been suitable to push willow spars into the ground for the ridge tents, and also had good grazing and a ready water supply. This was not only for 'domestic' use but to water the horses, of which there would have been many, all for sale at the fair, and to soak the wheels of the carts or drays, in hot weather. Shrinkage is the enemy of cart wheels, and the term 'cutting and Shutting' comes from wheelwrights cutting down shrunken wheels. Thirdly there must have been a source of food. Local wildlife but also shops within horse driving distance Likewise there must have been civilisation for hawking the usual items. (That's another thread!) Fourthly we can estimate the year for the singing of Brigg Fair. Joseph Taylor was working but still living at home with his mother. With his birth in 1833 we can estimate the year 1851/2. Fifthly We know the song was sung by a younger Gypsy to the 'Maria Marten' tune. The Red Barn Murder had taken place some thirty years previously, and the Lazarus tune may have been adapted for the song, in the late 1830s or early forties. Steve Gardham would know more. In the sixth place we know that the song was also sung by John Deere who may have learned from Taylor. Finally the song mentions the 5th of August, which is fair day, has a well known tune, and the two verses may have been a local composition. So we are left with the balance of probabilities. For my money either our 'Young Gypsy' or person of his acquaintance, may have composed the song especially for fair day. Perhaps there were more verses. Joseph Taylor sat round the fire, was likely to remember a song sung by a Gypsy closer to his own age. The well known words have been reconstructed by Grainger, with verses from 'Low Down in the Broom'. In conclusion it would be wonderful to pinpoint which family of Gypsies sang the song. So if the excellent Henry and Iains can pin point a 'Pit' with the required facilities mentioned, I will make a few phone calls to Gypsy Folk of my acquaintance and see what memories linger. We might strike lucky. I think I have been fairly logical here but my mind is wide open to other views. |
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19 Aug 21 - 05:43 AM (#4117060) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST Hi Nick, you have piqued my interest on this search! 1851 in the Yorkshire wolds would put this at the start of the heyday of victorian high farming.The transition from sheepwalks to intensive arable production had been largely completed between 1842 and 1853(https://www.jstor.org/stable/40274732)As the wolds around Binbrook are chalk surface water is likely nonexistant much of the year, the permeability allows it to seep underground rapidly(This creates blow wells in Barton and around the source of the Barrow Haven Feeder) In sheep country the solution would be the creation of dewponds by puddling clay with straw. To the north of Binbrook is an old RAF base indicating the land is flat. To the south east one of the roads is labelled a hill,indicating high ground,, as is the land to the south. The map referenced in a previous post indicates a pit/quarry to the south of the village. The satellite photos show no dewponds and no quarries. There is patterning in the soil to indicate the removal of some field boundaries. It has to be bourne in mind though that dewponds in an arable area are largely obsolete and modern machinery can totally transform a landscape in hours. Any quarry would likely have been infilled to aid large modern machinery and this is prime agricultural land, the satellite photos show very little that is not farmed. The odd patches of woodland are largely left because to get modern machines in wedge shaped corners is simply not worth the aggro. The map of 1886 is largely the same as today - a few field boundaries removed and a track running sw ploughed over, although satellite imagery clearly shows the route. Brigg is 18.5 miles away by road. My thoughts are that to camp outside Binbrook for the fair at Brigg is quite a slog, but not impossible. The time period being considered was one of striking agricultural change that transformed many landscapes. I cannot find evidence of dewponds anywhere but although sheep require little water, they cannot meet their needs entirely from grazing, especially during a drought.Cattle raising was also important. Therefore water sources must have existed at some point. The village of Binbrook obviously had a water supply and chalk streams exist - I just cannot make them out in this area.They could have been piped years ago or simply may not exist in this area and the village may have relied on a spring. It does not take you much further forward I am afraid. If I was going to have a stab at a location I would go for one of the patches of woodland. Another source of info https://geographical.co.uk/uk/aonb/item/769-the-lincolnshire-wolds http://www.lglg.co.uk/history/history-of-gypsies-in-lincolnshire.html https://www.lincswolds.org.uk/chalk-streams/lincolnshire-chalk-streams/lincs-chalk-streams Finally when I used to attend auctions in Brigg each Thursday there were at least two gypsy families always in attendance and others frequently camped on the auction site. I have not been there for a few years, but if still around they may have a longstanding connection with the area and provide a source of info. |
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19 Aug 21 - 07:46 AM (#4117065) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,henryp Joseph Taylor from Lincolnshire, a Biographical Study by Ruairidh Greig "Joseph Taylor was born at Binbrook in the Lincolnshire Wolds, an area of rolling chalk hills, on the 10th December 1833, second son of James Taylor and Mary Ann Smith of Barnoldby-Le-Beck. James and his elder brother John moved to Binbrook in the 1820s from Fotherby near Louth. Binbrook was an unusual place, an “open” village in an area of “closed” villages where most of the land and property were owned by a single estate. It was for this reason that it was home to the seasonal labour force needed by the large local farms at certain times in the farming year. Elder brother John is listed as a gardener in the 1851 Census. Joseph’s father, James, was noted to be an agricultural labourer. The National School was not opened until 1843 and so it is unlikely that Joseph would have had formal education beyond that which was offered by the local Sunday school. "One consequence of being an “open” village was that Binbrook had its own hiring fair, the “Stattis” or Statute fair at which local farmers would select their labourers. Joseph’s early working life in the area was as an agricultural labourer. In 1851 he was one of 12 labourers employed by John Fieldsend on his farm at Orford, a hamlet north of Binbrook. At the age of 17, he was already taking an interest in music. According to Mrs Hudson in her unpublished biography, Joseph Taylor would often walk to Grimsby and back, a round trip of about 20 miles, to attend a concert. He was also learning songs from gypsies who used to come and camp in the chalk pits that dotted the landscape: “One evening when he returned from work, his mother told him that the gypsies had arrived, as they did each year at that time…He had been awaiting their arrival with impatience, since he loved their singing. So as soon as possible he dashed off to the ‘pit’ where he knew they would make camp.” That he was learning songs at this time is confirmed by an anecdote noted by Percy Grainger. When his Joseph Taylor’s mother asked what his new-born brother should be called, he replied: “Christen him Bold William Taylor’, this being the title of the newest addition to his repertoire of ‘ballets’ (as they are called by the rural singers)…and his advice was followed.” His brother William was born in 1853, when Joseph was 19 years old. As I recently discovered, it was also a time in his life when he spent three months in prison, convicted for stealing wheat cake and powder from Binbrook farmer William Croft. The turning point in Joseph Taylor’s life may well have been his marriage in 1856 to Eliza Hill from Huttoft on the Lincolnshire coast, six years older than him. They settled in Ranters’ Row in Binbrook, where their first two children were born. It was in 1863 that the family moved to Saxby All Saints, a pretty little village on the western slope of the Wolds, between Brigg and Barton on Humber." Joseph Taylor was born in Binbrook and lived there until 1863. Binbrook lies in the rolling chalk hills of the Lincolnshire Wolds. The gypsies would "camp in the chalk pits that dotted the landscape". And there is a record of a field in Binbrook called Chalk Pit, but there would have been other pits or banks where chalk was dug out. The gypsies arrived "as they did each year at that time." This may have coincided with a local event, harvest, perhaps, or the "Stattis" fair. Brigg is fifteen miles away; it's possible that the gypsies were making their way to or from Brigg Fair. [Glanford] Brigg was founded as a crossing over the River Ancholme, whose straight channel was built in 1635. In 1889, Brigg was included in the North Riding of the administrative county of Lincolnshire, Parts of Lindsey. The five Low Villages - below the Wolds - lie between Brigg and the Humber; Warlaby, Bonby, Saxby All Saints, Horkstow and South Ferriby. Joseph Taylor and his family moved to Saxby in 1863. In 1880, at the age of 15, his son Joseph drowned in the River Ancholme within sight of the village. The song Horkstow Grange describes how John Bowlin and Steeleye Span fell out one market day, and was sung by George Gouldthorpe of Barrow-on-Humber to Percy Grainger at Brigg in 1906. And South Ferriby offers a mooring for Amy Houson of the Humber Keel and Sloop Preservation Society. Not long ago, we called at Uncle Henry's Farm Shop and Cafe at Grayingham Grange, near Kirton Lindsey, ten miles south of Brigg. As children, we often visited Henry Wright who lived there, and who really was my Uncle Henry. |
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19 Aug 21 - 07:53 AM (#4117067) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Iains https://epns.nottingham.ac.uk/browse/Lincolnshire/Binbrook/58f86705756ff4cf42466ab8-Chalk+pit |
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19 Aug 21 - 08:09 AM (#4117068) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Nick Dow Thanks so much! I'll get back when I've had time to read and absorb. Nick |
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19 Aug 21 - 03:44 PM (#4117121) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Iains From: https://afolksongaweek.wordpress.com/2020/08/05/week-293-brigg-fair/ Ruairidh Greig August 5, 2020 at 11:53 am Thanks Andy. Enjoyed reading that. My cousin, Peter Collinson who is Taylor's Great Great Grandson brought it to my attention. We both knew Marion Hudson well – she was Peter's Grandmother and lived as I did, in Grimsby. Her memoirs are a little "rose-tinted" but still interesting. A couple of notes; the John Taylor recording is on the Peter Kennedy Folktracks cassettte 45-135 (Brigg Fair- Joseph Taylor). I've been wondering if the BBC made a record of Brigg Fair in 1944, was there another song on the B side? It's interesting, with regard to the gipsy story, that Grainger noted that JT learnt the song from George Medcalfe from Moortown, near Caistor. Perhaps he was the gipsy? I'm still looking for a compltet version. Thanks again for the interesting blog. Reply Andy Turner August 5, 2020 at 5:16 pm Thanks Ruairidh I used to dance with Oyster Morris, and have known Peter since c1976. Had quite forgotten his Taylor lineage until writing these notes. I'm sure I will know someone who owns a copy of that Folktracks cassette – will make some approaches. And good to know there are still unanswered questions about the song's origin – it would be so boring if we knew all the answers! (I do not know if this has been previously mentioned - apologies if it has) |
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19 Aug 21 - 05:53 PM (#4117130) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Nick Dow Firstly Thank you to our Guest, and to Henry and Iains again for all that typing. I was aware of the Grainger comment about George Medcalfe and of course thanks to Henry, I'm now aware of Mrs. Hudson's account. I think both accounts are true, which might seem daft until you give it some consideration. I have no doubt our 'young Gypsy' sang the song to Taylor and the assembled camp. I am equally sure that Medcalfe sang it to Taylor as well. I suspect that the conversation may well have been along the lines of 'I heard that song the other night/week/month at 'The Pit' from one of the Gypsy Folk, do you have some words?' 'Well I can only remember two verses.' How many times has this conversation happened in a Folk Club? Medcalfe is not a Gypsy name, not that it matters. Thanks to Henry again we are now aware the Gypsy Folk stopped in the chalk pits at Binbrook and that Binbrook is 15 miles from Brigg. This means that it was a one, or at the most, two night stop over on the way to the fair. Fifteen miles is nowt in a car, but a good lift by horse and cart. So the picture is now becoming a bit clearer. It means the Gypsy Folk were heading North to Brigg. That narrows it down a lot and one thing immediately occurs to me. I have camped with the the Travellers in Great Ouseburn (North)and Spalding (South) of Binbrook The Northern Travellers were heading to Boroughbridge, not Brigg, and the Southern Gypsies used to travel to Brigg and/or Appleby back in the day. I was camping upon the Boswell's ground in Spalding. Mally Boswell (not my wife Mally she had Dolan blood) told me that years ago the families spent the summer on the fruit picking, before heading North to the fairs, then on to wintering grounds. Mrs. Hudson's interesting story about the 'King' of the Gypsies inviting Joseph Taylor to join them, is also telling an interesting tale in this context. The Boswells are considered to be one of the oldest Romany families to exist in England. There is the 'Book of Boswell, as I am sure you are aware, so the 'King' may well have been a young 'Alger'(Trafalger) Boswell, or possibly his father. The dates seem correct. They were and still are a very proud family. Yes this may be a flight of fancy, but it fits with the facts as I know them. It was the Boswells camping at the 'Pit', by a balance of probabilities. I would love to think that Iains and Henry with a bit of help from me have cracked the mystery of which family sang Brigg Fair! However as before my mind is open to other views, and I do tend to get a bit carried away, even at the this late stage. |
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20 Aug 21 - 07:48 AM (#4117186) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Iains Looking for the pit/s could be problematical as all traces in the area have vanished, and even where shown to exist all surface signs are obliterated. The steepest road leaving the village is the B1203 heading south westerly. The Ordnance Survey 6 inch to 1 mile Old Map (1888-1913) clearly shows a couple of chalk pits and a marl pit close along the southern side of the road going to Binbrook top. In the village a couple of springs are labeled and a stream resurges on the north of the village flowing northerly (So as soon as possible he dashed off to the "pit" where he knew they would make camp. Straight up the steep main road to his stand-point, a gate on the right-hand side. This led to a rough cart track on the edge of the field leading to the pit.) There are a couple of tracks shown on the right. The first barely out of the village goes some distance towards the stream and a couple of fishponds. The next just outside Kirmond Le Mire leads to a hydraulic ram (presumably lifting water to the big house)and a stream. No sign of pits or quarries anywhere in the immediate vicinity of either track though. However pits were ephemeral if dug for liming fields and the drift cover is variable over the wolds and I believe only the Gipping Till was calcareous - with the rest of the drift/tills the clay would have required 'sweetening' There are numerous circular features that can be seen on the satellite imagery. They could be infilled pits but equally they could be far more ancient features that ploughing has virtually destroyed. This was a far more densely populated landscape prior to the sheep invasion and the mention of a barrow on the map takes the history back several thousand years so residual rounded patterns could mean all things to all men. It would require boots on the ground and even that may not give definitive explanations. If you scroll back in time on the satellite imagery the crop patterns emphasize some of these features but do not explain them. Apologies for a bit of a ramble but landscape archeology is a bit of a hobby for me. I think locating the encampment/s is a bit of a challenge too far. https://www.archiuk.com/cgi-bin/build_nls_historic_map.pl?search_location=,%20Binbrook,%20Lincolnshire&latitude=53.420157&longitude=-0.195756 |
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20 Aug 21 - 11:09 AM (#4117206) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Nick Dow Probably! But thanks anyway. Old Gordon Boswell is dead. I'm on to contacting the family to see if our theory is correct. |
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20 Aug 21 - 04:41 PM (#4117262) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST As an interesting aside to the opening of pits and quarries the executors of the Vicar of St Marys Binbrook were hauled off to court in 1818 for allowing 4 acres of land to be excavated for road metal, "to wit, divers large holes, pits and excavations, to wit 100 holes of great width for sand and gravel." Even back then the major gripe was that reinstatement and making good was non existent. Today the diocese of Lincoln still has 12000 acres of glebeland, mainly arable farmland. https://books.google.ie/books?pg=PA568&lpg=PA568&dq=chalk+quarries+at+binbrook+lincs&sig=ACfU3U0i_aBo2F_jd4v80InsAciMm_k2zQ&id=2 |
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21 Aug 21 - 05:18 AM (#4117330) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,JHW In my childhood I went Under the ice in 'Bowes Quarry' so might have been a gonner long since. No trace of that quarry now. Levelled with spoil from 1960s A1 Catterick bypass. (That bypass now bypassed) |
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21 Aug 21 - 07:44 AM (#4117345) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,henryp Very intriguing, Nick. In John Bartholomew's Gazetteer of the British Isles (1887), Spalding is said to be in a rich agricultural district. It still is. Although the final Flower Parade was held in 2013, the autumn Pumpkin Festival, started in 2002, carries on. And the farms still rely on migrant labour; Cabbage and Broccoli Operatives Location – Spalding, Lincolnshire Rate of pay - £8.91 per Hour Start – ASAP Shift – Day shift available - 12 hour shift From the internet; Deeping St Nicholas; With the proper drainage of the fens in 1845 a church was built and dedicated to St Nicholas and this gave its name to the village which came into existence in about 1850. The reclaimed land is of exceptional fertility and farming was once the main occupation together with associated trades of saddlery, wheelwrights and cart makers. But as mechanisation came, more and more people had to look for work outside the village in nearby Spalding and Peterborough. Cereals and sugar beet are the main crops, potatoes used to be grown in large quantities and the potato railways were in great use. Horses were used to pull the trucks laden with corn or potatoes. Not far away, the Wisbech & Upwell Tramway opened in 1883 to serve a number of small villages on the West Norfolk/Cambridgeshire border, an area of fertile fenland soil. The area was well known for its top fruit, typically apples, pears and plums as well as strawberries, a staple of the goods traffic on the line until it closed in May 1966. So I wonder if the Boswell family was returning, via Brigg, to Spalding to pick fruit and vegetables throughout late summer and autumn. And I remember The Lancashire Drift fondly! |
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21 Aug 21 - 09:30 AM (#4117350) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Nick Dow Yes that's just as likely. Still have not heard from them yet by Email. I'll give them a ring next week and see who remembers me. |
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07 Aug 22 - 03:22 AM (#4149612) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,Andy Turner FWIW I located the catalogue record for the John Taylor version in the BL: Brigg Fair Taylor, John (folk) (singer, male) Item title: Brigg Fair Collection title: Peter Kennedy Collection SHELFMARK: C604/1497 Contributor: Taylor, John (folk) (singer, male) Performance note: John Taylor (son of Joseph Taylor and brother of Mary Taylor) sings 'Brigg Fair'. Recording date: 1944-01-29 Recording location: Saxby All Saints, Lincolnshire, England, UK Item duration: 2 min. 10 sec. Country (origin): England Genre: Folk songs and music Web theme: Category: World and traditional music. Europe Recording note: Related to the commercial release 'Unto Brigg Fair' published by Folktrax (FTX-135). Recording note: Date and location taken from tape box. Digitised by: Unlocking Our Sound Heritage (UOSH), funded by the National Lottery. British Library. 2017-2022 Language code: eng Holdings RECORDING Copies Material Location C604/1497 C5 1 RECORDING Store Note Location = Store This doesn't appear to have been digitised yet. However Kennedy's interview with Mary Taylor is online, at https://sounds.bl.uk/World-and-traditional-music/Peter-Kennedy-Collection/025M-C0604X0080XX-0001V0 |
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17 Feb 24 - 11:26 AM (#4197392) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,henryp According to Patrick O'Shaughnessy, Joseph Taylor, who learned Brigg Fair from a Gipsy, could remember only two stanzas. But perhaps he only heard two verses from the Gipsy. It was on the fifth of August The weather hot and fine Unto Brigg Fair I did repair For love I was inclined I got up with the lark in the morning With my heart so full of glee Expecting there to meet my dear Long time I’d wished to see One word altered for the sake of rhyme. Percy Grainger published a setting in 1911, adding three more stanzas. Two were borrowed from The Merry King, a song he collected in Sussex. Brigg - formally Glanford Bridge - is a market town, formerly in the County of Lincolnshire Parts of Lindsey. The Angel, in the market place, is now the district office of North Lincolnshire Council. Brigg is a crossing point on the River Ancholme, surely the straightest river in the world. It flows to the Humber at Ferriby Sluice, passing the Low Villages of Worlaby, Bonby, Saxby All Saints, Horkstow and South Ferriby. Brigg Fair was a popular horse fair and a gathering for Gipsy families. Our family visited my grandmother in Brigg every half term. I remember that the hard water always left a ring of scum around the hand basin, and that the butter was too cold to spread! I think that Brigg Fair deserves some extra verses linked to Lincolnshire rather than from Sussex. And here they are; As I passed by The Angel My love came into view Her beauty shone just like the sun In a sky of constant blue We walked beside the river It ran so sure and slow She holds my heart, we ne’er shall part As long as it may flow We’ll enjoy the sun of summer And endure the winter’s storm When winds blow cold across the wold We shall stay safe and warm |
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24 Feb 24 - 12:36 PM (#4197866) Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair From: GUEST,James Phillips Julie Murphy recorded a really nice version of Brigg Fair with the Welsh band Fernhill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnOXjiAL114 |
