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19 Aug 10 - 03:52 PM (#2968819) Subject: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Ebbie That other disturbing thread brought this to mind. Over the years I have wondered: on practically their death bed, why did Hitler and Eva Braun bother to marry? It seems incongruous, given his history of murder, vengefulness and paranois. Marriage is an affirmation of religiosity, it seems to me- why did he bother? Did Braun (And why and how on earth was she able to love him? Did she share his predilictions?) Anyway, did Braun tell him that he owed her that much? Or did he get on bended knee and beg her to do him the favor of marriage "'til death do us part'? Did he chuckle and acknowledge that he could't go ask her parents for her hand? (And why have I never read anything about her family?) What was their last day like? Did they spend it in fond reminiscing? Did Braun practice writing her new name, making fancy scrolls and did he say, 'Oh, you kid'? ? |
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19 Aug 10 - 04:04 PM (#2968828) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Lox To get to the other side! |
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19 Aug 10 - 04:07 PM (#2968831) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: GUEST,mauvepink Alas, Ebbie, history is full of women who have followed demonic men, often with very tragic endings not so much for them but for those they encountered. I have no idea why some woman would do it. I call it "Dirty Den Syndrome". Den was a real horror on the soap "Eastenders" and yet many women were totally drawn to him. Moths and flames come to mind. Yet more women often do it out of some kind or fear too. Perhaps being next to a powerful socio-psychopath gives them some strange sense of protection? I make no sense of it either Bonny and Clyde, Brady and Hindley, Hitler and Braun, The Wests... Sadly there are too many examples of this strange phenomena :-( mp |
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19 Aug 10 - 04:08 PM (#2968833) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: gnu Sad as it may be, Lox could be partially right. |
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19 Aug 10 - 04:13 PM (#2968839) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Bill D There was a long documentary on "Hitler's last days" which told the story. They had an interview with Hitler's secretary, who had been there and seen the thing play out. Everyone says it was simply the only thing left he could do to repay her for sticking with him. They did little things that you might imagine for any couple about to die...had wine, talked...etc. Mood was somber.... "Did Braun practice writing her new name..." The wedding document survived...she started to write "Eva Br... and crossed it out and wrote 'Hitler'. I can't begin to speculate why she followed him... but it was a 'secure' and comfy life...while it lasted....and perhaps "Stockholm Syndrome" was involved....and of course, for a couple years, she though he might 'win' and BE the big cheese. If you get things like The History Channel, they might replay the whole thing one day. |
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19 Aug 10 - 04:13 PM (#2968840) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Ebbie "To get to the other side"? I don't even get it. |
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19 Aug 10 - 04:16 PM (#2968841) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: GUEST,mauvepink The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese! mp |
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19 Aug 10 - 04:23 PM (#2968846) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Smokey. He always claimed to be the Roman Catholic he was raised to be, and to be 'doing God's work' - there was no reason he shouldn't believe in the sanctity of marriage. It might seem a little incongruous to us, but it wouldn't to him I don't think. |
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19 Aug 10 - 04:25 PM (#2968849) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Melissa I always kind of thought it might be because he was afraid to be in heaven alone.. |
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19 Aug 10 - 04:30 PM (#2968853) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Charley Noble It was about the only thing left that he was able to do that honored her fidelity. I don't remember if he urged her to escape while there was still time. That would be another way to show that he cared about her. Of course, they both knew what would happen to them if they were captured. Charley Noble |
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19 Aug 10 - 04:44 PM (#2968869) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: gnu mp... the early worm gets the bird. |
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19 Aug 10 - 04:46 PM (#2968870) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: gnu Charley... il ducette? |
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19 Aug 10 - 04:49 PM (#2968874) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Little Hawk I think he did believe in the sanctity of marriage, and he probably felt that such a gesture was the last affectionate thing he could do for Eva Braun at that point to, as Charley said, honor her fidelity. What's so hard to understand about it? Those people didn't think of themselves as evil, they thought they were the "good guys", losing out to the "demonic" Communist hordes who would swallow all of Europe if they failed. Ebbie, I suggest you watch the entire movie "Der Untergang" on Youtube (if you haven't already), and consider all the various thoughts that might have been going through their minds. Remember, they thought they were the good guys, the tragic heroes going down fighting, the defenders of western civilization. If they had won the war and become the dominant power in the world, that's exactly what future generations would have been told about them, I'm sure, and you wouldn't be hearing about death camps at all, unless they were the Stalinist death camps. |
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19 Aug 10 - 05:14 PM (#2968887) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Ebbie Hey, come on. I spent four years of my life reading everything I could find on WWII from the German point of view. I choose not to watch a fictionalized movie of it; entertainment was not what I was after. |
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19 Aug 10 - 05:25 PM (#2968893) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Paul Burke C'mon, everybody knows that Hitler was a socialist, a liberal and a satanist, so obviously it was post- modernist irony. Shane he didn't hang in a bit, he'd have been a shoo in for the Democrats in 2012. |
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19 Aug 10 - 05:32 PM (#2968900) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: gnu Adolf and Sarah... hmmmm... there's a very bad joke there. |
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19 Aug 10 - 05:47 PM (#2968905) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Bill D Hitler did urge Eva to go to the mountains, but she refused to leave. |
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19 Aug 10 - 05:58 PM (#2968909) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Rapparee There's also the question of the death of Angelika Maria "Geli" Raubal, Hitler's niece and possible mistress. Suicide? or the results of Hitler's uncontrolled temper? Apparently it was after the death of Raubal that Hitler became a nearly-total vegetarian AND much more inhuman. At the time of Raubal's death, Eva Braun was 19 and Hitler was "seeing" her. |
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19 Aug 10 - 06:05 PM (#2968914) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: skipy For his pension? Skipy |
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19 Aug 10 - 06:13 PM (#2968916) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Smokey. Skipy, I just coughed tea all over my guitar.. |
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19 Aug 10 - 06:14 PM (#2968917) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: GUEST,bankley There's a great movie called "The Downfall", a German production (touchy for them) starring Bruno Ganst,, about the final bunker days.. some warm, human moments with flashes of insanity and bad temper.. Ganst struggled with the decision to play the role as he is a strong anti-fascist... he finally accepted and did a superlative job... when I was in Berlin I went by where the bunker was and it was a parking lot. The gov't didn't want any neo-nazis flocking to the place. |
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19 Aug 10 - 06:40 PM (#2968933) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Little Hawk That's the movie I was referring to. It's called "Der Untergang" in German, "The Downfall" in English. It was made recently in Germany and is regarded as an extremely accurate depiction of the people and events in the last 10 days inside Hitler's bunker in Berlin. The movie has some brilliant acting in it, particularly Bruno Ganz's superb depiction of Hitler. I think that anyone who saw it would gain some further useful insight into the motivations of Hitler and those immediately around him. Yes, he encouraged Eva Braun to escape while she still could (and some of those people did get out even in the last few days), but she refused to leave his side, so he married her in a completely symbolic ceremony that could only have been done for personal emotional reasons...it had no practical or political bearing on the rapidly ending story of the Third Reich. |
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19 Aug 10 - 06:54 PM (#2968943) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: McGrath of Harlow Maybe the man thought it made a better story, which might help build some kind of Wagnerian legend around him in the future. "Liebestod (German, "Love death") is the title of the final, dramatic aria from the opera Tristan und Isolde by Richard Wagner. When used as a literary term, liebestod (from German Liebe, love and tod, death) refers to the theme of erotic death or "love death" meaning the two lovers' consummation of their love in death or after death. |
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19 Aug 10 - 06:56 PM (#2968944) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Naemanson We've all heard of Hitler's insane temper tantrums but I don't think I've ever heard of him being cruel to Eva. I agree with Little Hawk. Those guys thought they were doing good work. They were ensuring the life of the Germany they believed in. It was the "bad guys" who won the war and left them in the dirt. |
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19 Aug 10 - 06:57 PM (#2968946) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: katlaughing I don't really care, but I am sure glad they did not procreate. |
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19 Aug 10 - 07:02 PM (#2968951) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Bill D Didn't Eva already have 2 kids...who died in the bunker with them? |
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19 Aug 10 - 07:15 PM (#2968961) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Little Hawk I think that at a point when there is absolutely no hope left and you are quite sure you'll be dead in 24 hours, there might be a strong instinct to do whatever still holds some sense of personal meaning, and to do it before it's too late. He also said goodbye to the various members of his personal staff just before the end. He encouraged Traudl Junge, his young secretary to leave the bunker while she still could and save her life. She (on a momentary impulse) answered that she would not leave...and later said that she probably did it, because at that moment she didn't want him to feel completely abandoned by everyone. (He had always treated her kindly.) It is Traudl Junge's own eyewitness accounts of those days that furnished much of the historical information in the movie. She did manage to escape the area after Hitler's death, and got out of Berlin. By all accounts, she seems to have been a nice and rather innocent young woman who simply got caught up in the grand political events of the time when she answered an ad and got hired as Hitler's stenographer. |
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19 Aug 10 - 07:19 PM (#2968965) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: alanabit Not as far as I know. You may be confusing her with Frau Goebbels, who poisoned all of her daughters before topping herself. By all accounts Eva was pretty well apolitical. There are differing accounts of her by various people who knew her. (This information was gleaned from documentaries on German TV). |
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19 Aug 10 - 07:44 PM (#2968978) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Bill D Ok...right...I remember now. Thanks |
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19 Aug 10 - 07:46 PM (#2968981) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: skipy If I am not mistaken (which I often am) Hitler had brothers, I believe there is a book about a pact between them that they would not have off spring. Skipy |
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19 Aug 10 - 07:49 PM (#2968983) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: skipy Adolf Hitler was the fourth of six children of Alois and Klara Hitler. They are as follows: - Gustav Hitler - Ida Hitler - Otto Hitler - Adolf Hitler - Edmund Hitler - Paula Hitler He has two half-siblings from his father's second marriage to his second wife: - Alois Hitler, Jr. - Angela Hitler From Wiki. Skipy |
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19 Aug 10 - 08:19 PM (#2968994) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Charley Noble It's amazing how creepy this thread is even after so many years! Just imagine the burden anyone would have bearing the name "Hitler." Charley Noble |
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19 Aug 10 - 08:36 PM (#2969004) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Little Hawk Yeah, it's horrifying to even contemplate it. The only sensible thing to do would be to change your name. |
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19 Aug 10 - 08:39 PM (#2969006) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Ebbie Isn't it the truth, Charley! It is the first time I've ever broached the question, even though from time to time I have wondered about it. So, did any of his brothers have children? |
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19 Aug 10 - 09:26 PM (#2969045) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Ebbie Here's what I just fond: "Adolf was the fourth of six children born to Alois and Klara, but only one of two to survive childhood." The Others died in Childhood Angela Hitler ½ sister born 1883 died 1949 besides Geli, had two children: born 1910 Leo Raubal born 1906 Elfriede Paula Hitler (sister of A.H.) b. 1896 d. 1960 Doesn't say whether she had children |
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19 Aug 10 - 09:56 PM (#2969066) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Ron Davies A possible answer: from HItler by Ian Kershaw, p. 820. ( I see no direct primary source for his assertion but it makes sense.) "As long as Hitler had a future, he had ruled out marriage.. His life, he said, was devoted to Germany. There was no need for a wife. It had also been politically inconvenient. No one outside the inner circle was to know of Eva Braun's existence. She had been forced to accept that she was no more than an appendage, there when Hitler wanted her to be, stored well out of sight for the rest of the time.....The marriage cost him nothing. He did it simply to please Eva Braun, to give her what she had wanted more than anything at a moment when marrying him was the least enviable fate in the world." |
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19 Aug 10 - 10:16 PM (#2969078) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Little Hawk That sounds very plausible to me, Ron, and it dovetails with some other stuff I've read. |
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19 Aug 10 - 10:17 PM (#2969079) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Ed T Aa Sad as it may seem, most folks cannot some traditions, regardless of how many others they ignore, bend, break or alter for their personal cause. |
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19 Aug 10 - 11:22 PM (#2969099) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Little Hawk Yeah. I'm sure Hitler thought he was a very traditional guy. ;-) And in some respects, he was. |
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20 Aug 10 - 12:36 AM (#2969122) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Ron Davies "most folks..." This observation seems to have no bearing on the topic. If it is meant to imply that Hitler had respect for the tradition of the wedding ceremony, that is evidently false. He had no more respect for it than the most stalwart Mudcat atheist does. As has been pointed out, he went through the ceremony purely to please Eva Braun. And it was indeed a bizarre travesty. "Not long after midnight, with the bunker shaking from nearby explosions," the ceremony was carried out with "one of Goebbels' minor officials, city councillor Walter Wagner, dressed in Nazi uniform with a Volkssturm armband" conducting it. |
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20 Aug 10 - 01:31 AM (#2969138) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Little Hawk My father was a rock solid atheist, Ron, but I have no reason to believe he did not respect the marriage ceremony. He certainly appeared to respect it highly from anything I ever heard him say or do at various marriages he attended. He was conventional and traditional, and that's all you need to be to respect the marriage ceremony. You don't have to be religious. Likewise, I have no particular reason to believe that Hitler did not respect the marriage ceremony. As he said, he considered himself too devoted to Germany to have room in his life for marriage and family. This does not imply disrespect for the institutions of marriage and family, it simply indicates a conscious choice to focus on something else instead. Hitler's official social policies appeared to be pretty strongly committed to the ideas of traditional German marriage and family (for "Aryans", that is....). ;-) I hesitated to even bother commenting on it, however, because I fear it will trigger an endless series of counter arguments and objections from you, and I may end up with carpal tunnel trying to responding to them all. So if it does....I'll just pretend you have won and bail out of this thread, okay? ;-) |
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20 Aug 10 - 01:49 AM (#2969140) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: J-boy Why the fuck does anybody marry? |
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20 Aug 10 - 03:17 AM (#2969163) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Ebbie That used to be the reason. :) |
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20 Aug 10 - 07:01 AM (#2969256) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: GUEST,Patsy The final defiant arrogant thing he could do in the circumstances. If by some quirk of fate if Eva had survived who knows what her treatment would have been, in the eyes of the world and captors she would be just another floozy collaborator who fratenized with a Nazi dictator some one to be subjected to severe cross-examination and ridicule. I expect they did discuss various outcomes, whatever the reason, logic doesn't enter into the mind of a fanatic. |
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20 Aug 10 - 07:31 AM (#2969270) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Ron Davies I've told you how this "'marriage ceremony" was carried out. If you think a uniformed Nazi as the person carrying out the ceremony respects the tradition of that ceremony, you are welcome to that view. Had he wanted to, I suspect Hitler could have required that a priest be there to do it. That he did not indicates how much respect he had for it and how much planning had gone into it. The whole thing appears pretty clearly to have just been a meaningless sop thrown to Eva Braun at the last minute. Either that or Hitler planned to not to have a religious official carry out the "ceremony". One other possible interpretation: At that point--and in fact for quite a while before--Nazism was in fact the religion of Germany as far as Hitler and his followers were concerned. Therefore it was perfectly logical to have a Nazi official carry out the "ceremony." But it certainly gives the lie to assertions, which have been made on Mudcat, that Hitler was a Christian any time after about age 7. It was also quite clear to both Hitler and Eva Braun what their fates would be if captured by the Russians, who were in fact already in Berlin. From Kershaw:, Hitler: 1936-1945 Nemesis: p 820: "By now, Soviet troops had forced their way into Potsdamer Platz and streets in the immediate vicinity of the Reich Chancellery. They were no more than a few hundred feet away." There would be no "severe cross-examination and ridicule". and no need to discuss "various outcomes." And all in the bunker knew this. It was patently obvious to all what the immediate outcome would be if Hitler and Eva Braun were found by the attacking Russians, considering what the Russians themselves had gone through. Anybody who thinks differently is invited to read more on exactly what the Russians had in fact gone through. |
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20 Aug 10 - 11:15 AM (#2969409) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Marriage is an affirmation of religiosity, it seems to me- why did he bother? Hitler was well versed on the affirmations of reliogiosity - oppression, war, mass extermination, persecution, hysteria, propaganda, inquisition, cultivation of fear and ignorance etc. etc. |
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20 Aug 10 - 02:57 PM (#2969566) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Ed T "As has been pointed out, he went through the ceremony purely to please Eva Braun". That is merely speculation, as most perspectives, if not all, seem to be. |
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20 Aug 10 - 04:20 PM (#2969611) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Charmion Hmmmm. As a "civil code" country, like France, Germany has that thing where marriage is definitely a civil state and may also be religious sacrament. Of the two rites of passage, the one that takes place at the Rathaus (town hall) is compulsory; going to church is entirely optional. Under the Nazi regime, all public offices from Chancellor to municipal dog-catcher -- and definitely including the German equivalent of Justice of the Peace -- were open only to members of the Party. My parents always said that Hitler revealed his essentially petit-bourgeois nature in marrying Eva Braun at the last minute -- "making an honest woman of her, and an honest man of himself," as my mother put it. |
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20 Aug 10 - 04:32 PM (#2969614) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Art Thieme I was born in 1941, and if my memory of those days is correct, they were married because Eva's mother, Adolph's would-be mother-in-law, was intent on coming to stay with them for a week or two. They decided to marry right away because they didn't want her mom to know they'd been living together! Art Thieme (What tangled webs we weave!!!) |
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20 Aug 10 - 04:44 PM (#2969629) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Art Thieme ;-) Art |
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20 Aug 10 - 05:24 PM (#2969649) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Jim Dixon So he could claim her as a dependent on his income tax? Hey, income tax is owed even on the estates of dead people, for the last year in which they were alive. Hm, I wonder who their heirs were. |
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20 Aug 10 - 05:37 PM (#2969656) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Smokey. She probably nagged him into it. The old story, seen it countless times; henpecked at home, so they act like bastards at work and take it out on everyone else. |
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20 Aug 10 - 06:11 PM (#2969679) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: GUEST,Bjarne Hitler loved myths and wanted to be remembered beyond death. If he reads this threads in hell, he will be pleased. He didn't actually *believe* in his myths about devine Providence choosing him to save Germany etc., but he was intoxicated by his own rhetorics and by the masses applauding or fearing him. Eva Braun also enjoyed attention, though she wouldn't think about posterity. |
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20 Aug 10 - 08:18 PM (#2969747) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: mousethief He has two half-siblings from his father's second marriage to his second wife: Why did his father marry his second wife twice? (I'll get my hat...) |
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20 Aug 10 - 08:27 PM (#2969750) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Smokey. He was very drunk at the time. |
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20 Aug 10 - 09:38 PM (#2969775) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Ron Davies "...merely speculation" Plus logic, and evidence from what we know of both parties. Interesting that no better explanation has been hazarded. Anybody who has one is welcome to share it. |
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20 Aug 10 - 11:38 PM (#2969821) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Beer I like Lox's theory. ad. |
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20 Aug 10 - 11:59 PM (#2969832) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Naemanson Ebbie - "Marriage is an affirmation of religiosity, it seems to me- why did he bother?" I can't agree with that. I know of plenty of good marriages where religion had nothing to do with the reason for coming together or for staying together. |
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21 Aug 10 - 12:45 AM (#2969845) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: mousethief Ebbie - "Marriage is an affirmation of religiosity, it seems to me- why did he bother?" I can't agree with that. I know of plenty of good marriages where religion had nothing to do with the reason for coming together or for staying together. Hear, hear. Including my parents and my maternal grandparents - none of them religious in the slightest. And yet committed to their marriages as marriages, and motivated to make it work and keep making it work. |
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21 Aug 10 - 01:24 PM (#2970098) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Ed T "Interesting that no better explanation has been hazarded". A personal perspective, again. |
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21 Aug 10 - 01:53 PM (#2970115) Subject: RE: BS: Why did Hitler and Braun Marry? From: Ed T "Plus logic, and evidence from what we know of both parties" I suspect few people choose marriage, based on logic. I do not recall seeing much of the type of the type of evidence that you refer to. "No mistake is more common and more fatuous than appealing to logic in cases which are beyond her jurisdiction"- Samuel Butler |