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24 Aug 10 - 12:35 AM (#2971530) Subject: BS: Handkerchief History - How big? From: Naemanson As part of my class on Pacific Island Literature I am reading an excerpt of A Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym by Edgar Allen Poe. It is Poe's only full length novel and, apparently it gets rather strange. In the excerpt I am reading there is a point where two men make a rope out of their pocket handkerchiefs and use it to descend a cliff face. Poe describes at one point how one of the sailors tied the "rope" around his waste and then lowered himself several feet down the cliff! That is a hell of a POCKET handkerchief! I have also learned, earlier and from a different source, that Chamorro women liked to get the handkerchiefs of sailors. The would tie them around their wastes to hide their nakedness. So here is my question: How big was a pocket handkerchief in the first half of the 19th Century? |
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24 Aug 10 - 12:59 AM (#2971538) Subject: RE: BS: Handkerchief History - How big? From: wysiwyg Wal.... that depends if it was snotrags or real handkerchiefs. Snotrags come in all sizes because, of course, they start out as RAGS, for which there is no standard size. Gent's hankies OTOH would be fine linen.... How big is a magician's handkerchief-- the ones we see nowadays (on TV hiding rabbits) are purdy big. The "standard" bandana, now, is about 12"--- but this is beside the point. Because-- when you make them into ropes, you fold them on the diagonal, which is the direction the fabric wants to stretch the most and also probably the strongest: force pulling on it will pull not across warp or weft (like where one might want to tear a rag and it will tear quite easily)-- but on the "bias," where the threads intersect. So to really get to the heart of this you would need to know not only how biased your escapees were, but also what fabric was used and how tightly it was woven. Batiste, for example, is a loose, almost sheer weave, so it would stretch a lot.... plus take very little of the corner-fabric to make a very strong knot. Anyone who has ever tied a bandana into a bikini can tell you THAT. (As well as that wet fabric behaves differently from dry.) But then you also need to know what fibers might have been used because cotton batiste would not be very strong but linen woven that way.... My head hurts. But you can see for yourself, now, how to handle this "feasibility" question with kids-- invite them to bring different fabrics and sizes and play "escape" (but not from the classroom if it's not on the ground floor, LOL). ~Susan |
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24 Aug 10 - 02:37 PM (#2971923) Subject: RE: BS: Handkerchief History - How big? From: Q (Frank Staplin) How could the handkerchiefs be used for anything after tying them around their wastes? |
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24 Aug 10 - 03:00 PM (#2971947) Subject: RE: BS: Handkerchief History - How big? From: Smokey. Roughage helps. |
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24 Aug 10 - 03:03 PM (#2971951) Subject: RE: BS: Handkerchief History - How big? From: olddude On the TV show survivor I guess they are big enough for the girls to wear them as halter tops .. either they are that big or the girls are that small .. don't know |
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24 Aug 10 - 03:13 PM (#2971961) Subject: RE: BS: Handkerchief History - How big? From: Q (Frank Staplin) The standard (my decision) bandana handkerchief is 21" x 21". See Drysdales Western Wear- http://www.drysdales.com/Mens/Neckties-Wild-Rags/detail-355-Basic-Red-Bandana.html They sell yer Basic Red for US$1.50. And it is 21" x 21" (furriners do their own metric figuring). |
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25 Aug 10 - 09:14 AM (#2972497) Subject: RE: BS: Handkerchief History - How big? From: GUEST,Patsy In the Wild West hankerchiefs were used as tourniquets in emergencies (I saw it on TV) so they would have had to have been large enough to wrap around a leg or man's arm. |
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25 Aug 10 - 10:14 AM (#2972540) Subject: RE: BS: Handkerchief History - How big? From: Naemanson Yeah that's all well but Poe has these guys using them for rock climbing! Later on in the story they add them to a shirt to make a sail for a canoe! |
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25 Aug 10 - 05:47 PM (#2972834) Subject: RE: BS: Handkerchief History - How big? From: Q (Frank Staplin) So? Poe wrote fiction. |
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25 Aug 10 - 07:46 PM (#2972903) Subject: RE: BS: Handkerchief History - How big? From: Slag A story from whole cloth, I assume. |
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25 Aug 10 - 09:27 PM (#2972950) Subject: RE: BS: Handkerchief History - How big? From: Sandra in Sydney There's lots of info line, but no useful info I could see, so it's back to the books! The Dictionary of Costume by R. Turner Wilcox. NY, Scribners, 1969 Handkerchief ...Early in the nineteenth century, the gentleman's handkerchief settled into an accepted size of about eighteen inches, of white linen with a hemstitched edge & an initial in one corner. My old handkerchief mentioned in the Guam thread is creamy silk with a one & a half inch hemstitched hem & "K" monogram in one corner, & is 19" square. The only date I have for it is 1973, when I bought it! Have you looked for a contemporary review of Poe's novel to see if critics savaged it for playing around with facts? sandra |
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26 Aug 10 - 08:48 AM (#2973170) Subject: RE: BS: Handkerchief History - How big? From: Naemanson I realize Poe wrote fiction but we all write what we know. While the story is fiction he wouldn't put anything into it that his readers would object to. In the story the sailors also used "Bowie Knives". I had to check the history of the knives. The story was written shortly after the fight that made Jim Bowie famous. It made perfect sense for him to use it because his readers would see it as recognizable. I believe these "pocket handkerchiefs" are not what we are used to. They were probably squares of trade cloth used to get the attentions of the island girls. |
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26 Aug 10 - 10:12 AM (#2973221) Subject: RE: BS: Handkerchief History - How big? From: Sandra in Sydney tomorrow I'll be in the next suburb to one of the 2 libraries in Australia that holds Dr Margarete Braun-Ronsdorf's "History of the Handkerchief" - unfortunately it's not on the open shelves as it used to be way back in the 70s/80s when I used their Historic Costume collection. It's in Offsite Storage which probably means it takes days to get it. I'll be back there a week later, if you want me to ask them if I can use it then. sandra |
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26 Aug 10 - 11:40 AM (#2973273) Subject: RE: BS: Handkerchief History - How big? From: McGrath of Harlow The size of a traditional Boy Scout's neckerchief was supposed to be 32 inches square, big enough to be useful for stuff like that. I'd imagine that sort of size would be about right. Think of all those Westerns where cowboys turned their hands tom other trades like robbing banks or stagecoach hold-ups. They weren't using tiny little pocket handkerchiefs. |
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27 Aug 10 - 03:02 AM (#2973773) Subject: RE: BS: Handkerchief History - How big? From: Sandra in Sydney Lady's handkerchief a dainty 12" square Gentleman's handkerchief an elegant 18" square Workman's handkerchief - larger than the above? |
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27 Aug 10 - 04:00 AM (#2973792) Subject: RE: BS: Handkerchief History - How big? From: Roger the Skiffler Don't forget a kerchief was not to wipe your nose (as smaller handkerchief became). Women wore it over head or round neck to cover bosom in low cut bodice. They were clearly valuable as they were worth stealing (cf Oliver Twist), these might be large enough and strong enough to tie into a rope. RtS |
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27 Aug 10 - 03:57 PM (#2974176) Subject: RE: BS: Handkerchief History - How big? From: Q (Frank Staplin) The Bowie knife, or Arkansas toothpick, was first made by a cutler named Black for Resin Bowie. The knife became well-known because of the famous 'Sandbar Fight' in 1827, when the knife was used by Jim Bowie. There were many demands for the knife, and cutlers Searles, Constable, and others made them in the 1830s. Sheffield cutlers in England in the 1840s and 1850s improved on the design and produced the knives in quantity; it was these English knives that were popular with sailors and other workmen who needed a good, large knife. McGrath, I think, points to the correct interpretation of Poe's handkerchief; cowboys, farmers, workmen and travelers often had a rather large general purpose cloth which was used around the head to filter dust, wipe machinery and other uses; commonly called a 'handkerchief' but not the smaller one for the pocket. |
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02 Sep 10 - 07:40 AM (#2978342) Subject: RE: BS: Handkerchief History - How big? From: Naemanson This site, which I got to through McGrath's link above, shows the testing criteria for a boy scout neckerchief. It also answers some of the questions I have. Thanks, McGrath! |
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02 Sep 10 - 06:52 PM (#2978863) Subject: RE: BS: Handkerchief History - How big? From: The Fooles Troupe Funnily enough, the Bowie looks remarkably similar in shape to the Seaxe - a very old style sword/knife. |
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03 Sep 10 - 11:26 AM (#2979288) Subject: RE: BS: Handkerchief History - How big? From: EBarnacle In addition to its use as a close in combat weapon, the James Black Bowie was also balanced as a throwing weapon. As this was a relatively unknown feature, few, if any, other smiths and manufacturers have built this feature in. |
