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01 Sep 10 - 03:25 PM (#2977778) Subject: BS: Wear Hijab/Kufi on 9/11? From: Haruo A friend of mine linked to this Facebook thread People of all faiths to wear Hijab or Kufi on September 11th, to which I replied It would be most effective if I went at it in drag... aside from the most extreme female veiling, most other "Muslim" attire is actually rather ambiguous, I think. But a black habit with an eye slit, I think, tends to be seen as "clearly" Islamic dress. Maybe a Saudi 2-generations-off-the-camel-farm type robe would do, but I'm not sure even that would certainly make the point. A star-and-crescent armband, à la King Christian?(I don't see kufis as "clearly" Muslim garb; in fact, there are a couple Baptist preachers here in Seattle who wear 'em routinely.) Any 'catters thinking of participating in this or any other 9/11 stuff this year? Haruo |
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01 Sep 10 - 03:26 PM (#2977781) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab/Kufi on 9/11? From: Haruo Were the cloistered nuns of my childhood Islamic moles? ;-) |
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01 Sep 10 - 03:34 PM (#2977790) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab/Kufi on 9/11? From: McGrath of Harlow Would a fez be OK? But maybe Tommy Cooper put the kibosh on that. |
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01 Sep 10 - 05:14 PM (#2977858) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: artbrooks An interesting thought. However, the idiot fringe is just as likely to take that as a gesture of support for the murderers of 9/11 as for the wrongly accused Muslim majority. |
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01 Sep 10 - 06:52 PM (#2977960) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: Jack Campin The skullcap makes a statement I'd have no way of interpreting, particularly in New York. In general you can't tell an orthodox Jewish yarmulke from a Muslim skullcap (there may be some identifiable variants, but the basic ones are the same). You can get a t-shirt here which says "I'm a Muslim - Don't Panic" which is maybe a bit more straightforward. |
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01 Sep 10 - 07:43 PM (#2978035) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: McGrath of Harlow In general you can't tell an orthodox Jewish yarmulke from a Muslim skullcap And the Pope wears one too. I'm reminded of the bit in the film Witness where the Amish boy runs into some Hasidic Jews and assumes they must be Amish. |
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01 Sep 10 - 09:35 PM (#2978114) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: Haruo But of course the Pope is Jewish, he's the direct descendant of St. Peter (so I was taught, I kid you not, in Presbyterian Sunday School in the early 70s). |
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01 Sep 10 - 09:45 PM (#2978117) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: Kent Davis If one does not wear a hijab or kufi the other 364 days of the year, why wear one on 9/11? Do you wear orange on St. Patrick's Day? Do you wear a red coat on the Fourth of July? Do you wear a kimono on December 7? Do you wear a chiton on Hanukkah? What would you think of someone who did? Kent |
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01 Sep 10 - 10:03 PM (#2978125) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: Kent Davis Before someone assumes that I didn't read the link and therefore do not know that the stated reason for wearing a hijab or kufi on 9/11 is to make a point, the point that not all Muslims are terrorists, let me say that I read the link, and I get the alleged point. But is this proposal a reasonable way to make that point? Not all Southerners owned slaves. Should I therefore dress in antebellum gray on Juneteenth? Not all Romans participated in the execution of Jesus of Nazareth. Should I therefore wear a toga on Good Friday? Kent |
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01 Sep 10 - 10:27 PM (#2978136) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: Haruo My guess is that the main reason to do it on 9/11 would be to raise eyebrows and maybe even hackles among one's non-Muslim fellows. And/or as a countermeasure to the proposed Koran-burning on that date. I doubt it would be done out of an active desire to rub salt in the wounds of actual 9/11 survivors/bereaved, Muslim or otherwise (and if I went in drag in a chador I'm not sure but what that would be viewed as grievous sin by the Muslim faithful in general). |
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01 Sep 10 - 10:41 PM (#2978143) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: Kent Davis So is raising "the eyebrows and maybe even the hackles among one's non-Muslim fellows" likely to decrease prejudice and build bridges? Or is it likely to tick off the "rubes" so that the "enlightened" can look down their noses at them for being irritated by an action that was designed to be irritating? Kent |
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01 Sep 10 - 11:30 PM (#2978156) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: artbrooks Personally, I find that I am able to piss people off quite adequately without trying. |
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02 Sep 10 - 12:06 AM (#2978172) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: mousethief If one does not wear a hijab or kufi the other 364 days of the year, why wear one on 9/11? To show solidarity with the ordinary Muslims who are associated with the terrorists and in some cases assumed to be terrorists themselves, merely because they are Muslims. Do you wear orange on St. Patrick's Day? Why, does St Patrick's Day commemorate a terrorist attack which causes today's Protestant Irish to be mistaken for terrorists? Do you wear a red coat on the Fourth of July? Why, does Independence Day commemorate a terrorist attack which causes today's Britons to be mistaken for terrorists? Do you wear a kimono on December 7? Why, are Japanese today mistaken to be terrorists because of Pearl Harbor? Do you wear a chiton on Hanukkah? Why, are Greeks today mistaken to be terrorists because of the events commemorated by Hanukkah? What would you think of someone who did? They were as illogical as your list is. |
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02 Sep 10 - 12:08 AM (#2978173) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: LadyJean I will be attending the Ligonier Highland Games on September 11. Hijab would be inappropriate. Besides, frankly, while I would fight tooth and nail to defend a woman's right to wear it, the idea repels me. The Koran tells women to let the ends of their headscarves hang down to their bosoms, in other words, don't show your cleavage. Sage advice. It does not say wrap yourself up in a piece of black cloth and make yourself a non entity. I find the whole hijab thing offensive. I remember seeing a little Muslim girl, she couldn't have been more than 10, trying to play while wrapped up in one of those things. She couldn't move. I hated seeing that. |
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02 Sep 10 - 12:52 AM (#2978190) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: Haruo Thanks, mousethief. I agree. If I were to participate (which I may, haven't decided yet) my intent would be "to show solidarity with the ordinary Muslims who are associated with the terrorists and in some cases assumed to be terrorists themselves, merely because they are Muslims" rather than to raise eyebrows or hackles, but I assume that some eyebrows and hackles would be raised, my otherwise-directed intent notwithstanding. And I agree that it would probably make as much and perhaps more sense to dress as a Muslim on some or all other days of the year. 9/11 is more prone to occasion discriminatory acts towards those perceived as Muslims than your average day, but probably not a whole lot more prone thereto. I already vote a Chinese ballot each time out, why not wear a kufi every Friday and a kipa every Saturday (and maybe a papal skullcap every Sunday?)? |
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02 Sep 10 - 03:22 AM (#2978230) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) I'd rather see a day's display of Islamic art, food and culture (which all of us can enjoy and partake of) than a token adopting of religious dress. It encourages & perpetuates the co-opting of religious dress like the hijab and burkha as a *political* statement rather than as a genuinely religious one. While I see the reasoning, I also tend to think 9/11 isn't a good day to be making political statements like this, as it could end up causing greater rifts between activists and ordinary Americans. |
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02 Sep 10 - 04:42 AM (#2978264) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: MGM·Lion >Do you wear a chiton on Hanukkah?< ???? A chiton was Greek, not Jewish! ~Michael~ |
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02 Sep 10 - 04:57 AM (#2978269) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: GUEST,Patsy >I'd rather see a day's display of Islamic art, food and culture (which all of us can enjoy and partake of) than a token adopting of religious dress. It encourages & perpetuates the co-opting of religious dress like the hijab and burkha as a *political* statement rather than as a genuinely religious one. While I see the reasoning, I also tend to think 9/11 isn't a good day to be making political statements like this, as it could end up causing greater rifts between activists and ordinary Americans< I agree with this and makes much more sense I don't think Muslims themselves would appreciate non-Muslims wearing the hijab or burkha just to make a statement or gesture. I appreciate that there are going to be people that are still feeling pretty raw and sensitive it was such a horrific event, there is no getting away from that, on the other hand there were some Muslims who perished in the building too. The families of those people I am sure would rather a subtle display of food, art and culture rather than everyone dressing up. |
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02 Sep 10 - 08:40 AM (#2978376) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: Greg F. Not all Southerners owned slaves. No, but they all benefited from an economy and social system BASED on slavery. |
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02 Sep 10 - 08:47 AM (#2978382) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: McGrath of Harlow "Do you wear orange on St. Patrick's Day? Why not? It's on every Irish flag. |
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02 Sep 10 - 09:06 AM (#2978395) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: McGrath of Harlow For some people an alternative could be to abstain from drinking beer etc on that day, as an expression of solidarity - and explaining why, when your drinking mates notice it. |
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02 Sep 10 - 10:36 AM (#2978439) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: Amos You know, I've forgotten your name but your fez is very familiar... |
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02 Sep 10 - 03:09 PM (#2978680) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: mousethief A chiton was Greek, not Jewish! I think the point was that Hanukkah commemorates a historical event in which the Jews were attacked by Greeks. |
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02 Sep 10 - 03:21 PM (#2978694) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: Jim Dixon I didn't know what a "kufi" is, so I looked it up. There are some interesting images there that have nothing to do with headgear (I think). What do you call the hats that Afghan men wear? I'd love to have one of those, but I have no idea where to get one. |
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02 Sep 10 - 03:57 PM (#2978724) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: McGrath of Harlow Surely for a Muslim man at prayer the point is to have a head covering, and any hat will do - the rest is just a matter of fashion. |
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02 Sep 10 - 04:06 PM (#2978738) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: bobad Jim, it seems to be called a pakol, see here; http://www.simplyislam.com/iteminfo.asp?item=52046 |
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02 Sep 10 - 05:17 PM (#2978798) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: Jim Dixon Pakol it is! Thanks! Does anybody but me think they're cool? Not literally. I was actually thinking of wearing them in cold weather. Sort of like a beret only warmer (maybe). |
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02 Sep 10 - 05:29 PM (#2978809) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: Jim Dixon Hmm. It looks like Ramadan ends (in North America) on 9/10, at sunset, I presume. Will Eid celebrations still be going on on 9/11? Wow. THAT could easily be misinterpreted. (I looked it up because I considering recommending that people fast. Now it doesn't look like that would be appropriate.) |
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02 Sep 10 - 06:13 PM (#2978837) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: GUEST,TIA I've got a pakol that a mate brought me from Afghanistan. Then my daughters found them (and got them) at The Hungert Site Store: https://shop.thehungersite.com/store/search.do;jsessionid=B982F259707765A63B13EEAEB1C75919.store-b?site=&context=Fair_Trade&subtext=Gifts Proceeds go to very good causes. And the pakol is way cool. |
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03 Sep 10 - 12:27 AM (#2979006) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: Kent Davis MtheGM, Mousethief's post of 3:09 is correct. McGrath of Harlow, Wouldn't green be the most appropriate color to wear on St. Patrick's Day? Maybe it is different on the other side of the Atlantic. Perhaps Dublin resembles a sea of orange on March 17. I don't know. In the U.S., green clothing on St. Patrick's Day is used symbolically to honor Irish culture. Wearing orange would not make the same point at all. Greg F., If I wore a chiton all year long, no one would have any beef with my continuing to wear it on Hanukkah. If, however, I decided to wear special clothing on Hanukkah, wouldn't it be more appropriate to wear something specifically Jewish than to wear something specifically Greek? Someone who wore a chiton BECAUSE it was Hanukkah would be insulting the Jews. If a man were to fly a rebel flag all year long "to honor the ideals of Southern culture", his motives might be suspect. If he flew that flag ONLY on Juneteenth, his motives would be clear. Such behavior, on that particular day, would be taken as an intentional insult to the victims of slavery. Mousethief, I don't know where you live but, here in the Southern Appalachian hills, people wearing hijabs and kufis are not mistaken for terrorists. They might be mistaken for doctors, since so many of the Muslims around here are in fact doctors. We tend to be well-armed and, if anyone were to be mistaken for a terrorist, he or she would not be long for this world. Obviously, since the local Muslims remain alive, no one is mistaking them for terrorists. Are the people where you live really so unsophisticated? Kent |
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03 Sep 10 - 09:24 AM (#2979221) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: GUEST,Neil D Should I therefore wear a toga on Good Friday? Any Friday is good when you're wearing a Toga! |
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03 Sep 10 - 09:57 AM (#2979235) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: Peter K (Fionn) Kent's last post exposes a curious paradox: in all those years since WW2 during which the US has been hammering country after country into civilisation, usually at gunpoint, it has never thought to extend the rule of law into the southern Appalachians. |
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03 Sep 10 - 10:16 AM (#2979243) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: Greg F. ...rebel flag (i.e. Confederate Battle Flag; "Stars & Bars") all year long "to honor the ideals of Southern culture", his motives might be suspect. His motives wouldn't be suspect at all, unless he was an idiot & didn't know what the flag represented. His disingenuous excuse, however,- "to honor the ideals of Southern culture" (presumably these ideals include support for chattel slavery, white supremacy, armed attack on the United States Government & etc.)- would indeed be suspect. |
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03 Sep 10 - 01:50 PM (#2979380) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: Kent Davis Peter K (Fionn), Thank you for your tender concern for the Southern Appalachians. You will be pleased to learn that we do have the rule of law here. My home state of West Virginia has had a crime rate lower than the national average for many years. This is true of both violent crime and property crime: http://www.idcide.com/citydata/wv/index.htm The same is true of our neighbors Virginia and Kentucky. (You can reach those statistics through the link above.) Mousethief's neighbors, perhaps, tend to assume that Muslims are lawless. You apparently assume that Appalachian people are lawless. Bigotry is a terrible thing, isn't it? I wonder...would it help you to overcome your prejudice if, one day a year, your neighbors wore bibbed over-alls? Kent |
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03 Sep 10 - 07:57 PM (#2979589) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: Neil D If the people of your home state believe in the rule of law why would YOU insult them by implying that they would murder someone because of a mistake. These are your own words : "We tend to be well-armed and, if anyone were to be mistaken for a terrorist, he or she would not be long for this world." |
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03 Sep 10 - 09:36 PM (#2979631) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: Genie Instead of us all wearing Muslim garb on 9-11, why not wear something like t-shirts with an ecumenical message -- e.g., depicting Buddhism, Wiccan, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, secular humanism, etc.? |
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03 Sep 10 - 10:32 PM (#2979658) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: Kent Davis Sorry, Neil, I guess I wasn't making my point as clearly as I thought. Perhaps this will be clearer: 1. Mousethief's post, of September 2, 12:06, said that the purpose of dressing as a Muslim on 9/11 was "to show solidarity with the ordinary Muslims who are associated with the terrorists and in some cases assumed to be terrorists themselves, merely because they are Muslims". 2. An attempt to stop a terrorist attack would not be murder; it might be heroism; it might be a tragic mistake; it would not be murder. 3. If West Virginians assumed that people were terrorists "merely because they were Muslim", they would attempt to stop the (presumed) terrorists from killing. They would (in this hypothetical situation) undoubtedly first try reporting the (presumed) terrorists to the proper authorities. If those authorities took no action, then the common people would take action themselves. 3. However, the common people have NOT taken direct action. This is strong evidence that the common people are perfectly capable of distinguishing between terrorists and ordinary Muslims.. 4. I don't really think that the people of the Southern Appalachians are uniquely able to distinguish between terrorists and ordinary Muslims. People all over this great country have been proving, for almost 9 years now, that they have this ability. If Americans were really as bigoted as they are sometimes accused of being, there would be no Muslims left in America. 5. The implication that ordinary Americans need to be taught a lesson by "enlightened" people costuming themselves as if they were Muslims is ridiculous. 6. It is repugnant that such "enlightened" people would have the gall to choose September 11, of all days, to so costume themselves, imagining that they would thus be teaching us common people a lesson, a lesson that the absence of anti-Muslim "pogroms" shows we had learned even prior to 9/11/01. Kent P.S. What I have said about the U.S.A., of course, also applies to the U.K., Australia, Israel, and every other country which, in spite of being attacked by terrorists, continues to have a thriving and free Muslim community. |
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04 Sep 10 - 07:37 AM (#2979821) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: McGrath of Harlow Distinguishing between Muslims and non-Muslims by what they are wearing would be extremely difficult where I live. Especially in the case of men. About as easy as telling Catholics from Protestants. |
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04 Sep 10 - 10:09 AM (#2979884) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: Peter K (Fionn) Kent, you are getting into conflict with yourself. In one breath you say "We tend to be well-armed and, if anyone were to be mistaken for a terrorist, he or she would not be long for this world," and in another that you have the rule of law. But perhaps you are not able to see the conflict? (I imply nothing, of course, about general intelligence levels in them Appalachian hills.) |
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04 Sep 10 - 02:07 PM (#2979996) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: robomatic I'll wear my traditional head covering in solidarity with Muslims. They can take the big red 'B' over the bill to signify BELIEF. Meanwhile, if any Muslims in areas where terrorism is a problem would care to apport a big I heart NY T-shirt, I would take it as a sign of solidarity with the victims of 9/11. |
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04 Sep 10 - 08:52 PM (#2980147) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: Kent Davis Peter K (Fionn), Thank you for so kindly suggesting that the bulk of my fellow Appalachians may not be as dull-witted as I am. You might try re-reading items #2 through #4 above (03 Sept, 10:32 PM). Notice especially the second and third sentences of item #3. Regardless of the "general intelligence levels in them Appalachian hills", we do have enough intelligence to realize that, if one wishes to mark the occasion of a mass murder by wearing a special costume, it would be appropriate to do so in a way that expresses solidarity with the victims. I like robomatic's suggestion. Kent |
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04 Sep 10 - 11:27 PM (#2980182) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: LadyJean I own two tee shirts, with the same message on them; "Truth, Nature, Knowledge three candles that illuminate the darkness." It has been my custom to wear one of them each year, on September 11. |
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05 Sep 10 - 03:32 PM (#2980539) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: robomatic LadyJean: I wouldn't mind owning one of those T's and wearing it on occasions. But I do wonder if it is not a 'cop-out' as it may mean all things to all people. Right now I am wearing an American Flag T-Shirt with reversed colors and the logo: "Happiness is an elusive bastard". It, too, is not conveying what I hoped it would, and it's days as a public statement on my person are numbered. |
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05 Sep 10 - 08:26 PM (#2980665) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: robomatic Long View: This country has a history of tolerance toward Islam, with isolated patches of vitriol poured on the faith by such ilk as Cotton Mather. The latest occurrences are due to political hate-mongering on the part of a few politicians who should know better. By and large, over my lifetime in the United States, I've run into a lot of ignorance about Islam but hardly any antipathy or hate. Short View: The objection to the "Ground Zero" mosque is mostly on a perception OF a perception. If it is in reality what it is presented to be: a religious/ gathering center with multiple facilities including a mosque, that happens to be in the vicinity of Ground Zero, I think there is negligible hostility. But the fear story being circulated is that a significant number of Muslims perceive this as a sort of victory lap, in other words, a provocative presence (Not unlike that huge Mosque in the middle of Istanbul that was one of the great early churches of Christendom). So what was NOT controversial has become so as a matter of perception. Is the perception of a perception justified? That will take more than this thread can supply. Will wearing a hijab on the upcoming 9-11 anniversary make a well-understood point? I don't think so. In my community a 'hijab' is pretty innocuous, in fact there are several communities around here where the women cover their hair. No biggie. |
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05 Sep 10 - 11:20 PM (#2980717) Subject: RE: BS: Wear Hijab (scarf) /Kufi (cap) on 9/11? From: GUEST,heric An abstruse affectation, c'est ca. |