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15 Sep 10 - 02:29 PM (#2987397) Subject: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Jim Dixon This came up in the thread "Phrases that don't travel." People in different countries, maybe even different regions in the same country, sometimes have different ideas about what you need to do or say to be considered polite. New Yorkers, for example, have a reputation among us Midwesterners for being brusque, self-centered, loud, and impatient. In Minnesota, we have the concept of Minnesota nice. Do people from other places seem impolite to you? Have you ever been accused of being impolite, when you were only following the customs of your own home area, in a place where people behave differently? If so, please post your stories here. I will have a few stories of my own, shortly. |
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15 Sep 10 - 02:41 PM (#2987409) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Becca72 Around these parts (Maine) people from Connecticut and Massachusetts are seen as pretty rude. Their driving is awful (no turn signals, traveling in the passing lane and refusing to move over, not yielding, etc) and most of the time they come across as very demanding. |
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15 Sep 10 - 02:46 PM (#2987413) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Amos There are people like that from all over, I reckon; the folks from MA and CT are just needing to decompress some. It's like hamsters. A |
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15 Sep 10 - 03:15 PM (#2987439) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Jim Dixon On our first trip to England in 1985, my wife and I were waiting for a bus in Portsmouth. This was in a residential neighborhood, and houses in that area were built right up to the sidewalk/pavement. That's something we're not used to. Where we come from, houses are set back maybe 15 feet, with lawn in between. Back home, we couldn't have done what we did in Portsmouth. What did we do? With our feet on the pavement, we half-leaned, half-sat on the windowsill of the adjacent house. An older woman who was also waiting for the bus spoke up and pointed out that this was someone's kitchen window, and we shouldn't sit there. She was polite, but she spoke plainly. What she said made obvious good sense, so we immediately got off the windowsill. I thanked her. So I learned two things that day about England: (1) There is private space that you need to respect, in places where you wouldn't expect to find it; and (2) if you commit a faux-pas, a stranger will speak up and tell you. That wouldn't happen in Minnesota, where "Minnesota nice" requires that you don't confront strangers over their small infractions. Unless it's serious enough to call the police, you're supposed to ignore it. I think I like the English system better. |
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15 Sep 10 - 03:32 PM (#2987449) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Becca72 Agreed, Amos. However, we mostly see people from MA and CT here on vacation so have more exposure to them than others from around the country. |
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15 Sep 10 - 03:40 PM (#2987456) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: akenaton Here on the West coast of Scotland, everyone had a nickname, this nickname was used at all times except when that person was in the company.......It was always considered very bad manners to call someone by his nickname to his face.....very bad ettiquete |
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15 Sep 10 - 03:46 PM (#2987462) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Bill D I spent most of my school years in Kansas, and when I moved to the Wash. DC area in '77, it was like running down the beach into waist-deep water...at least as far as 'public' dealing with people. I joined the Folklore Society, and met many nice people, but cashiers in stores, clerks in offices, drivers, phone answerers, cab drivers...etc., wow! I was amazed at the brusk, impatient, rude and generally 'me first' attitude I met...(with the obvious exceptions). After a few years I went back to Kansas to visit, wondering if it was my imagination, but for a week, it was like old times....no one cut me off in traffic or ran red lights, and grocery store clerks looked up and said "hello" and clerks at counters noticed me, even if I had to wait a minute for service. I have my personal theories about the differences and why they developed, but after driving at various times in over 40 states, I see 'generally' a trend that the larger the metropolitan area, the worse it seems....with Seattle a bit better and NYC a lot worse. |
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15 Sep 10 - 04:26 PM (#2987485) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Jim Dixon Another story. On a Sunday afternoon in London, my wife and I were walking back to our hotel after (I think) visiting a museum. I think it was on Tottenham Court Road. The shops were closed, but something in a shop window caught our eye, so we stopped to look and discuss it. A man was standing alone nearby. (We hadn't noticed, but there was a bus stop there.) He started to chat with us. He was English, but not a Londoner. I think he was from somewhere up north and had just come to town to look for a job. Before long, he had told us his life story. Of course, we told him some things about ourselves also, and what we had seen that day, and so on. After a while, I looked at my watch and said, "Well, this has been very interesting, but we've got to get back to our hotel and have a rest before we start looking for a place to eat...." That's when he realized that we weren't waiting for the bus like he was, and he began to apologize. Not just "Oops, sorry" but he apologized profusely and abjectly. "Oh, no! I'm such a silly old fool! I was detaining you on your walk! I must have bored you to death! Oh, I am so sorry!..." and so on. He seemed sincere, and in such distress that I began to feel sorry for him, and tried to convince him we weren't that bored—but maybe by prolonging it I just made it worse. Well, it was awkward, but we eventually got out of there. To this day I'm not sure whether this guy was a bit eccentric, or whether we were running into a cultural difference. Most of my experience in England has been with people from London or Brighton, but it does seem that people from up north are more open to having conversations with strangers. And when English people apologize, they really apologize. |
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15 Sep 10 - 04:48 PM (#2987501) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: gnu Jim... "I was detaining you on your walk!...." What a delightful story. Bless the lad's heart. Politeness has waned even here in my backwater. Sad. |
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15 Sep 10 - 05:00 PM (#2987507) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: GUEST,PeterC Northerners will often strike up conversations with strangers like that. At Whitby once I was sitting in one of the shelters eating a sandwich when a very attractive young lady started chatting. As a Londoner I was just wondering how long it would be before I needed to say that I didn't want a "good time" when her husband turned up to collect her. |
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15 Sep 10 - 05:08 PM (#2987519) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Richard Bridge I think that people in England correcting others for a minor infraction are more likely to get headbutted than an apology, most of the time, today, and the idea of joining a queue and waiting one's turn is largely dead. |
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15 Sep 10 - 05:20 PM (#2987525) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Lizzie Cornish 1 "...Have you ever been accused of being impolite, when you were only following the customs of your own home area, in a place where people behave differently....?" Funny you should say that, because........................... ;0) |
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15 Sep 10 - 05:39 PM (#2987540) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Joe Offer I have received allegations that Lizzie comes from Outer Space, but that's another matter.... I hadn't heard of the Minnesota Nice that Jim linked to, but I grew up with similar behavior in Southeast Wisconsin. I left Wisconsin in 1970 and moved to California in 1973, but I'm still not comfortable with the hugs (and sometimes kisses) that near-strangers exchange here in California. Now, I like a good hug from somebody I like and know well, especially if that person is a female of the opposite sex, but hugs from relative strangers just feel uncomfortable. I admit that sometimes I will sometimes initiate a hug because it seems to be the accepted thing here, but it rarely feels right. To me, a hearty Wisconsin handshake seems a lot more sincere than a superficial California hug. And if I want to be really sincere, I can shake with two hands. -Joe- |
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15 Sep 10 - 05:48 PM (#2987551) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Bill D My wife tells of touring England and asking a waitress in a restaurant for a glass of water...when it didn't arrive, she asked again. Finally, the waitress looked puzzled, then brightened and asked in this chirpy little tone... "Oh, you mean WOAH-tah?" I wonder how she spelled it... |
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15 Sep 10 - 05:58 PM (#2987561) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: McGrath of Harlow And I wonder how Bill's wife pronounced it... |
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15 Sep 10 - 06:42 PM (#2987602) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Jim Dixon I agree with Joe about hugs. Which reminds me: back in the 1980s, I was a volunteer at a social-service agency, a telephone hotline that dealt with suicide prevention and other emotional or mental-health crises—rather like the Samaritans in the UK and Ireland, but this was a local organization in Minnesota. When we were undergoing training to become one of the hotline telephone answerers, we went through lots of exercises including various touchy-feely physical-contact stuff, such as group hugs, and giving each other backrubs, and probably more stuff I have forgotten. All this was, I think, supposed to make us more sensitive and empathetic, and build up trust among the group, so we could give and accept advice and correction (they called it feedback) without getting defensive, and so on. Now those goals are all well and good, but I doubt that all the touchy-feely stuff really helped. We were going to be talking to people on the telephone, for Pete's sake, so all that sensitivity and empathy had to be conveyed with the sound of your voice and your choice of words. Some people are good at that and some people not so good, and I don't think it has anything to do with your ability to hug people. It's like in music: If you want to be good at playing the mandolin, you've got to practice on the mandolin. Practicing on a guitar might help a little, but not as much as practicing on the mandolin. I haven't been in touch with (no pun intended) that organization for many years now, so I don't know if they have changed their training methods. I hope they have. Oh, I don't want to give the impression that it was all physical. We also did role-playing, which is an excellent way to learn, or to demonstrate the skill you already have, but I think at the beginning of every session we did warm-up exercises that were often physical. |
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15 Sep 10 - 07:10 PM (#2987614) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Bill D she said something like "wat-ter", and included a request for it in a 'glass', which should be a clue. |
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15 Sep 10 - 07:27 PM (#2987626) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: McGrath of Harlow To rhyme with hatter, Bill? Standard English English is to rhyme it with "daughter". But of course often enough both daughter and water are pronounced with the dropped "t" in the middle. |
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15 Sep 10 - 07:51 PM (#2987639) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Bill D I'm sure that's true, Kevin (and I think wat-ter does rhyme with daughter pretty closely)...but the waitress also dropped the final 'r' and emphasized the 'woah', and then made it pretty clear she was upbraiding the 'ignorant Americans' for their quaint pronunciations...much as the French are wont to do in certain areas and situations. It IS pretty hard to mistake 'glass of water' twice. |
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15 Sep 10 - 08:14 PM (#2987652) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Ebbie The best place I have driven in was, believe it or not, California. First off, streets have signage in the middle of the block with the name of the upcoming name of the next street - wonderful when you are riding the bus watching for when you are going to get off. Secondly, the roads are seriously banked- so when there is a flashing light saying 50! 50! 50! you better believe it. And I enjoy the crispness of California drivers at stop signs. One observes the rule(s) for who goes first and when it's your turn, you go. And one time they were doing a lot of road construction in downtown Sacramento, with detour after detour. We all swooped and flowed through in a manner I haven't experienced elsewhere. Now, all of these experiences were from quite awhile ago - mostly in the mid80s- and most definitely were not on LA area freeways. |
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15 Sep 10 - 08:26 PM (#2987658) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: catspaw49 I try to give most Spaw |
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15 Sep 10 - 11:38 PM (#2987734) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Ebbie That is precisely why I don't stay long in your presence, Spaw. Especially at breakfast time. |
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16 Sep 10 - 12:07 AM (#2987743) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: GUEST,leeneia All is discovered, Spaw! You try to create the impression that you are a semi-literate boor, but you let it slip that you can type stuff, cross it out, and have it still show. Are you a lawyer in your dayjob, by any chance? People where I live can be pretty rough, but we are very careful about doors. It is normal for a person opening a heavy door to check who is behind and to hold the door for the next person. The smaller or older that person is, the more careful #1 is. But most people will hold the door for anybody, even a bigger, stronger person. Then #2 takes charge of the door and says Thanks. Recently I was leaving an athletic club behind an extremely tall, strong male. I was a little surprised that he seemed to have no idea that I was right behind him. He strode to the double doors leading outside and banged his way out the wrong (left) side, startling the poor guy who was coming in that door at that moment. He didn't seem to see the guy at all, just pushed his way past him. I followed at a safe distance. I was not surprised to hear a foreign accent, some Germanic tongue, when he spoke to friends in the parking lot. Sorry if that sounds prejudiced, but... ======= Joe, I agree with you about hugs. When my husband's big family bids emotional farewells, I wish I could run up to a balcony and wave goodbye. |
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16 Sep 10 - 12:07 AM (#2987744) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: J-boy Like Becca 72 I am also from Maine but the people who disturb me the most are the aggressively friendly ones. Mainers are very far from cold-hearted but we will clam up in an instant if we think someone is being too forward. |
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16 Sep 10 - 12:25 AM (#2987750) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Joe Offer Contrary to what one might expect, Los Angeles drivers are usually polite and predictable. I'd say they're some of the best drivers in the nation - they have to be, if they want to survive. When I worked in LA, there were many upbeat and entertaining radio programs during the morning and evening drive periods - much better for driver attitude than talk shows. Lohman and Barkley were at KFI 1981-1986 were the best. As you crept along the freeways, you could watch the other drivers respond to the same program you were hearing. -Joe- |
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16 Sep 10 - 12:26 AM (#2987753) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Ebbie Speaking of furriners, there have been several times when I told some young man sitting in the front of the bus (where the advice is clearly posted to offer a seat to the "elderly or disabled" that in this country it is customary to give up one's seat to an older person. So far they have always moved. Although one time I jumped up and said, OK then, if you won't offer your seat, I will - and let some little old lady sit down. That same young man then offered me his seat - and I took it. :) |
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16 Sep 10 - 03:28 AM (#2987787) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: My guru always said Good for you Ebbie!!! Good stories here & I agree that attitudes are different when you get nearer to the centre of a city, especially driving. Love the Minnesota nice, though I can see that it isn't always the best way forward from what's been said. I seem to have grown up with the habit of apologising to someone when they bump into me, is that terribly English? |
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16 Sep 10 - 04:47 AM (#2987807) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Anne Lister Picking up on Bill's story - I still remember a restaurant (for what it's worth, in Bishops Stortford) which was a very bizarre eating experience anyway as it was an Italian restaurant entirely staffed with Chinese waiters (and playing Julio Iglesias music). I asked for the bill. Not an easily confused word, you'd have thought. The waitress nodded and smiled, and then stood next to me for the next few minutes until my dining partner returned from the Ladies. Mary said "What's happening?", looking at the waitress standing next to me. I told her what had happened and she addressed the waitress herself, speaking slightly louder than usual and asking again for the bill. "Oh yes", said the waitress, and went to get the bill for us. I'll never know what the waitress had first thought I'd wanted. As to different customs - when I returned from living in France for a couple of years I realised how many levels of good manners were built into the UK way of life, from crossing the road (I would cross when there was a gap in the traffic, whatever the crossing lights indicated) to queueing (my internal button to alert me to a queue appeared to have stopped working), as well as speaking up about poor food being served. Friends would move away from me each time I committed a faux-pas! |
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16 Sep 10 - 08:41 AM (#2987909) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Becca72 I agree with Joe and Jim. There are few things more uncomfortable for me than being hugged by someone I barely know. |
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16 Sep 10 - 10:29 AM (#2987964) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: GUEST,Patsy Bristolians have a reputation of being stand-offish hard to get to know, very reserved and unfriendly, more so than the rest. Being asked out by a Bristolian man here can take up to a couple of months and that is just to have a cup of tea together! We have become a lot more multi cultural now in Bristol people from different counties and countries moving into Bristol and it is nice, I like the improvement. We are definitely becoming less like that, hopefully it will continue getting better. Talking of hugs and kisses I lived on the Isle of Wight for a couple of years and how different things were there. Very laid back, people greet you there with kisses and call you babe or darling and you can strike up a conversation and friendship anywhere in about 10 minutes. I have known neighbours to just walk into the kitchen while you are out or upstairs in the bath to make everyone a cup of tea that is something we wouldn't do unless we knew the person well and even then wouldn't feel right. For a start there is no way you could leave a door or anything else unlocked in Bristol. The pace is a lot slower on the Island, if you rush or run anywhere people look at you as if your mad. When I moved back to Bristol I had to re-adjust from Island hippy mode back to townie mode. I still miss the Island though. |
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16 Sep 10 - 11:16 AM (#2987990) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Jim Dixon Another story. I was in Arundel. We had come to see the castle, but this happened on a high street. We were hungry, so we popped into a bakery and bought a few doughnuts and other sweet pastries. Immediately as I left the bakery, I began eating one of them. This was probably not a good place to do that—the sidewalk (pavement) was so narrow it was awkward for people to pass without jostling. An older man approached, wearing, if I remember correctly, a flat cap, tweed jacket, and vest (waistcoat). He was probably a tourist, but certainly English. As he passed, he gave me a big smile, patted me on the elbow, and said "Lovely! Lovely!" and passed on. I suppose he couldn't avoid touching me, or at least had to pass so close to me that he figured it would be rude to ignore me, so he turned the encounter into a very brief but pleasant social occasion! By saying "lovely" he was telling me that he approved my eating that doughnut, and got some vicarious enjoyment himself. My mouth was full, so I could do nothing more than smile and nod, but I think it was adequate under the circumstances. That would never happen in America. We mostly ignore strangers. If forced to pass close by a stranger on the street, we would probably say, in a bland voice, "Excuse me," and move on, without even making eye contact. Do I need to say, I like encounters like this? So far, all of my stories are from my first visit to England in 1985. I've been there several times since then, but it's harder to think of examples from my later visits. I guess everything was so new to me in 1985 that small things made a bigger impression then. |
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16 Sep 10 - 11:27 AM (#2987996) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: GUEST,crazy little woman You won't be ignored if you walk down a street in Kansas City. When you come upon someone going the other way, you can expect a smile, nod or a quick greeting. Not always, but usually. |
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16 Sep 10 - 11:40 AM (#2988005) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: GUEST,Peter Laban I am always flabbergasted when I run into tourists in North Clare that completely fail to acknowledge you when you meet them. I mean, you're walking some remote spot in the Burren, a beach or where ever, not another soul in sight for miles someone comes walking down the road, you say 'hello, nice day' andthey walk on without as much as looking at you. Happens quite often too. Throws me every time. |
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16 Sep 10 - 11:43 AM (#2988008) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Bettynh How does your family/cultural group handle sickness? I'm talking about "normal" sickness here - flu or vomiting. When I'm sick, I don't want anyone fussing over or even around me. Let me be in a dark room with a bucket or tissues handy. An occasional checkin by someone else is comforting, but I want to be alone. I'll probably sleep it off in a day or two. That this isn't so in other families came clear when (long story here...) my kid was being cared for by another mother while he vomited. She sat at his bedside, keeping a wet washcloth on his forehead. He was completely confused and a bit irritated. "Why would she do that?" It seemed a huge cultural difference was in play. |
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16 Sep 10 - 12:23 PM (#2988038) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Ebbie "That would never happen in America. We mostly ignore strangers." Jim Dixon It depends VERY much on where in the US you live. In Juneau, Alaska, I made up the truism that if someone who meets you on the sidewalk doesn't smile, it's because they don't get to live here. And it is just about true. (Except at lunchtime; don't get between an Alaskan and his or her lunch. :) I can see that in a big city one needs to somewhat control one's space and so it is proper/accepted to pretend you are not sharing the space with anyone else. That just is not true in small towns. I used to be the live-in manager/docent of a state-owned house museum. Every year one or two volunteer docents came from all over the country to help, earn a stipend and experience Alaska. For a couple of years it was a Chicagoan, a retired woman who had taken up photography with a vengeance. She came home one day with this story: She had photographed from a vantage point up the hill and then made her way to a lower level (Juneau is a hilly town) and set up her tripod. Then a garbage truck squealed to a stop in the intersection and the driver called out to her: If you want a better spot, go up the hill. And, she said, here was this Chicago woman standing in the intersection discussing photography with a garbage hauler. That, she said, would NEVER happen in Chicago where you might not even know your next floor neighbor. (She had lived on the 17th floor of a high rise building in downtown for 37 years.) |
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16 Sep 10 - 12:34 PM (#2988046) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Charmion Have you ever accompanied an Israeli in a crowded shop, where s/he might have to wait for service? It's an education. Some 25 years ago, I walked out for a few months with an Israeli pilot temporarily employed by an Ontario airline. One sunny summer Saturday afternoon, we went to a fashionable ice-cream parlour. The queue wound around the shop and out the door to the street. My pilot friend simply could not stand it. At home, there would have been no queue -- the customers would have thronged the counter, those with the sharpest elbows using their skills and attibutes to ensure the fastest service. He tried standing in line but it just wasn't in his nature; finally, he thrust a $10 bill into my hand and fled to the hot, dusty street where he paced like a caged leopard. He is also the only adult I have ever met -- an intelligent, sophisticated adult at that -- who would impulsively point out and loudly comment on a facial blemish or a shirt stain. He never quite hoisted in that, in Canada, one just does not do that without running the risk of a fat lip. |
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16 Sep 10 - 02:26 PM (#2988125) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Uncle_DaveO I have for years had the habit, when dealing with a waiter or the person behind the cash register, or others of that sort of service personnel, of making a small pleasantry or joke, some of which are standards for me, which my Beautiful Wife has heard me use for eons. An example for instance: Waiter: "Have a nice day (evening, weekend, or whatever)." Me: "I'll try to do that if you will!" Waiter: "I'll do that" or some such, accepting my "if you will". Me: "We got a deal!" Chuckles and pleasant smiles all around. Or this: I get on an elevator, and another passenger says, "Would you punch 3, please?" And I punch the button for third floor, and I add: "Now I'm technologically qualified for an up-and-coming career as an elevator operator!" Or maybe (s)he is the one who is requested and does push the button, and I offer congratulations and assure him/her that now (s)he is technologically etc. Again, smiles or chuckles and general good feeling. I probably will add, after a slight pause, "But that's an awfully thin job market these days!" Renewed smiles, and everybody goes away feeling good. My Beautiful Wife will probably scold me for carrying on this or some other little pleasantry with "the man behind the counter" or "a perfect stranger". It's not only that she's heard me say these and equivalent things so many times she's heartily tired of them (which I guess I can understand), but more importantly, it's not dignified enough for HER husband! (And by association, for her.) My wife is a born-and-raised Hoosier, which she has been trying to shake ever since college, whereas I emigrated to Indiana fifty years ago from Minnesota, and I guess I'm afflicted with "Minnesota Nice". I'm a congenital nice-maker. Dave Oesterreich |
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16 Sep 10 - 03:21 PM (#2988184) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: mayomick People from continental Europe seem to have problems with pub etiquette . I was in a near empty pub close to the ferry port on the Aran Islands one showery day a few years ago .All of a sudden a party of about thirty French hikers came in and took up all the seats and tables. After about ten minutes one of them got up ,went to the bar and ordered a mineral water and a packet of peanuts. That was it . About half an hour later ,when the rain had stopped ,they all got up and walked out again. I remember being surprised at how polite the pub staff were in not challenging the party. It often happened with continentals according to a local I was speaking to afterwards, "and the French are the very worst offenders". It only occurred to me after a trip a to France a few years later that those poor French hikers might have been dying of thirst and politely waiting for somebody to come to the table to take their orders. ………… There's nothing worse than holding the door open for someone coming behind you in a shop and them breezing past you without saying thanks. Or on your way out of a shop holding the door open for an old woman who's on her way in and the local football team walking in behind her,like you're the doorman. I suppose that happens everywhere though. |
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16 Sep 10 - 03:31 PM (#2988192) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Jim Dixon "That would never happen in America." OK, I admit, I should have qualified that. That would never happen in my hometown, St. Paul, Minnesota, which, combined with Minneapolis and their suburbs, forms the 13th largest metropolitan area in the US. So this is definitely a city environment, but I like to think it's friendlier than many others. By the way, I have a pet theory that everyone lives in a small town. If you live in a city, you have to create, or find, your own small town. Some people do this by joining a church, some by joining a bowling league, some by becoming folk musicians or dancers, etc. Then you organize your social life around that activity, and that church, or that bowling league, or that group of folkies becomes your small town. (Is Mudcat a small town?) Then, if you recognize a member of your small town on the street, you give them a nod and a smile (or perhaps more, if you know them well)—that is, you act like the resident of any small town would. But if you pass anyone else, you ignore them. I could develop this idea a lot further, because I have been thinking about it a long time, about the similarities and differences between a "functional" small town and a real one, and how people do this, and why, and so on. But I will spare you the details, unless, of course someone is interested. I'm sure you can think of a lot of examples on your own. |
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16 Sep 10 - 03:35 PM (#2988195) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Q (Frank Staplin) Wandering a street of small buildings (some housing offices of stamp dealers) in New York, many with storefront shops, I stopped at the window of a shop that offered an amazing variety of cheap gadgets, souvenirs, and gift(?) items. The storekeeper, standing near the door, said go away, you aren't going to buy anything from me, and waved me off. Rather taken aback, I said yeah, it's the worst lot of junk I've ever seen. He said come in and I'll show you worse. Somehow attracted, I could use a couple of items as jokes when I returned home, I went in. Soon, I was seated in a chair with a glass of tea, which was welcome, my feet were tired. We had a nice chat. |
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16 Sep 10 - 06:33 PM (#2988305) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Ed T When I travel, I have often hear common comments from hotel staff (that I get to know) about their views on people they serve. Here are a few, to stimulate discussion: Many German travellers do not wait in cues like other travellers and are very demending and often rude ro servers. Many US travellers (especially Texans) often are demanding and many tend to be on the "braggy" side....though some they tip very well. Some British travellers can be loud (especially those from Manchester and Liverpool) areas....do they ever sleep? They also seem surprised that economy hotels do not give 5 star service. Many Canadian travellers are far too nice (being on the edge of shy)....except the French Quebecers.....who travell in "packs" and expect that all servers speak French....even where French speaking customers are a small part of the clientel. |
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16 Sep 10 - 08:12 PM (#2988355) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: McGrath of Harlow There's nothing worse than holding the door open for someone coming behind you in a shop and them breezing past you without saying thanks. I'm not so sure about that. I tend to hold doors open and so forth without even thinking about it, it was built into me while I was growing up. If someone says thanks, that's nice, but if they don't that's fine too. I'm not doing it to be thanked. And often enough when someone has done the same to me and I've been preoccupied or whatever, I've not said thanks. When people protest vocally about not being thanked for some elementary act of courtesy, as they sometimes do, it somehow seems to undermine the whole value of the act - it seems as if they are measuring out their courtesy by the inch. ........................ As for stuff like "water" - "woah", the thing is, however we speak we are going to sound weird and ridiculous to people in other places and in other settings, and it applies both ways. Obviously we owe it to the other people in such situations to accept that however ridiculous we both may be in each others eyes and ears, we should accept the difference and try to put them at their ease rather than ridicule them. (That doesn't mean we should feel it wrong to be inwardly amused.) |
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16 Sep 10 - 08:32 PM (#2988367) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Joe Offer Now, you may not believe this happens in California, but the Code of the Sierra dictates that if you encounter another hiker, you must at least say "hello"; and most people stop for a brief conversation - that may go on for half an hour. Wherever you go in the natural places of California, people are so nice. -Joe- |
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16 Sep 10 - 10:50 PM (#2988420) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Bill D My wife, who traveled in Europe, agrees about the manners of many Israelis, and notes that many of them thus betray their German & Baltic roots. When she was there, the Germans were noted for using the elbows in a crowd. As to the French, she says that during happy discussions with rural French, they told her.."What you say about the French, we say about just Parisians." |
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16 Sep 10 - 11:02 PM (#2988426) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Ebbie There are so many exceptions. A lot of it, no doubt, is just the luck of the draw. I have some friends who travel a great deal- she is the proverbial lawyer and he is the proverbial carpenter - and as she says, they have no children and travel is how they like to spend their money. They have spent weeks in various areas of France in different years, and they were prepared for the aloofness/rudeness of Parisians. Instead, they were charmed. As she said, Go figure. |
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17 Sep 10 - 04:09 AM (#2988509) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: GUEST,Peter Laban Wherever you go in the natural places of California, people are so nice. The locals here would generally say hello and remark on the weather, the time of day or whatever. Some tourists though (and I get the impression it happens a lot, although certainly not exclusively, with US tourists) somehow fail to even look at you when you meet them. Which is odd when you're the only people in a remote area passing within a few feet of eachother. I always put it down to people being from cities, uneasy with meeting strangers. Mind you, I live in a rural area where even drivers in their car raise a few fingers from the steeringwheel in greeting when you meet on the road. |
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17 Sep 10 - 04:23 AM (#2988514) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: GUEST,Patsy Sometimes before I've visited a certain country or county people might advise that there is a reputation for being such and such and I have found completely the opposite especially when it comes to asking for directions or suggestions advice on somewhere to stay and I have been pleasantly surprised how helpful people have been. Even in the workplace occasionally I have been told that certain people had a reputation of being hard to get on with, rude or difficult but I have found that not always the case at all. |
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17 Sep 10 - 04:32 AM (#2988519) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Howard Jones In England, local accents can vary considerably over quite a short distance. It can be difficult for someone who is not from the area to understand everything which is being said. Of course it works both ways. I'm sure the waitress would have had a similar experience had she asked for a "glass of woah'ah" in a restaurant in the US - except of course that she would not have to, as one would have been offered as soon as she sat down. That is not usual in UK restaurants. Here, if you want water you'd usually be expected to buy an expensive bottle of mineral water. When I first travelled in the US, I was initially confused to be offered a bowl of green salad as a starter - here it would usually be served as a side dish with a main course. I caused considerable confusion myself by asking for Lea & Perrins (I knew better than to ask for Worcester Sauce) to put in my glass of tomato juice - the waiter went to ask the head waiter, and they both watched from a distance with a mixture of horror and curiosity as I added it to my drink. |
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17 Sep 10 - 04:43 AM (#2988521) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Joe Offer Hi, Howard- I think it depends where you are in America. I've never heard the term "Worcester Sauce" - it's usually "Worcestershire Sauce." It's not generally known by brand name, so I'm surprised you got what you wanted; but if you ask for "Worcestershire Sauce" in a decent establishment, you'll usually get Lea & Perrins. It's not unusual for people to put it in tomato juice, but you're more likely to see people in the US put Tabasco sauce in their tomato juice. -Joe- |
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17 Sep 10 - 05:36 AM (#2988539) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: My guru always said Jim, you're probably right about MudCat being a small town, you've described that theory well! I'm not sure I could manage without hugging, we do a lot of that in the UK Folk Family when we meet. I'll have to be a bit more careful when travelling foreign parts..... |
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17 Sep 10 - 05:57 AM (#2988546) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: GUEST,Patsy Unfortunately in the past Britain had got a bad reputation when travelling abroad for being lager louts, loud, aggressive and bad mannered and I must admit there are still a few from time to time that have me cringing with embarrassment. Some think just because they are on holiday abroad it entitles them to start drinking from 7.00am in the morning, more so in an all inclusive type holiday. They don't seem to understand that their livers aren't going to know that they are on holiday, so it's ok. The general impoliteness of some Brits sometimes makes me want to be in denial of where I come from. |
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17 Sep 10 - 08:12 AM (#2988601) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Howard Jones Joe, this was over 30 years ago and I was Greyhounding all around the US and Canada (I covered around 10,000 miles in 2 months), so I can't recall quite where it was - but it was probably somewhere out in the sticks. At the time, and in the places I visited, I found that I was usually offered "Lea & Perrins". If I'd asked for Worcester or Worcestershire sauce, (which are of course pronounced "Wooster" and "Woostersher") I'd have caused even more bafflement than I did anyway. Apart from the barrier of a common language, I was surprised at first to find just how "foreign" everything felt. I suppose I'd unconsciously assumed that because we speak more or less the same language, and because American culture is so familiar from TV, that there would be less of a culture shock. It took me some time to adjust to the fact that people did things differently and made different assumptions - something I'd take for granted when visiting, say, France or Germany but which I hadn't been prepared for. |
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17 Sep 10 - 08:45 AM (#2988619) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Midchuck Animals can be driven crazy by placing too many in too small a pen. Homo sapiens is the only animal that voluntarily does this to himself. - "Lazarus Long" (Robert A. Heinlein) That probably says it all as to the differences between urban and rural manners. (Not that there aren't crazy people in rural areas. Just that they don't get brought into such close contact with others that the craziness starts to be the norm.) Peter |
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17 Sep 10 - 11:25 AM (#2988714) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: LilyFestre In northern Pennsylvania there are a lot of gas drilling activities going on. This industry has hired some local folks but mostly they ship in their employees from (what appears to be) mostly southern states. There are lots of local residents who are not impressed with the new comers and I imagine they might receive a warmer welcome if they minded their manners some. For exampe: 1. Drive on your own side of the road. 2. Do not push oncoming traffice off the road. 3. Throw your litter in the garbage can and not on the road on which I live. 4. My driveway is not an open turn around for large industrial trucks. 5. The speed limit on the back roads does not exceed 50 mph. 6. Turn signals are appreciated. 7. How about keeping the gutter language to a minimum in public places. Most of us really don't care about your sexual encounters. 8. General respect is a good thing. I get that the industry is going to go on and drilling is going to take place whether I like it or not but wouldn't the community be a much nicer place if we all could show some common respect for each other. I know it's a bit much to ask.... Michelle |
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17 Sep 10 - 11:40 AM (#2988726) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Jim Dixon Chatting with strangers isn't only a matter of local custom; it also depends on the personalities of the people involved. Some people are just shyer than others. I have always lived in cities, plus I am a little more introverted than most people, so I was never inclined to talk to strangers. Then something happened that changed my habits a bit. The last job I had before I retired was running a "post office" window at a small university. (I was an employee of the university, not the US Postal Service, but I did a lot of the same things that are done at a real Post Office.) People brought me letters and packages they wanted to send, and I would compute the postage, sell them stamps, and give advice about different classes of mail, delivery times, and so on. I could also send things by UPS or Federal Express—that's a service you don't get at a real Post Office. And when people received things like certified mail, they had to come to the window and sign for it. It was the first job I ever had that required me to interact a lot with the public. As I got better at my job, I also got better at making small talk with my customers. I learned that the stuff that people send in the mail is often connected with momentous events in their lives. Students are sending off applications for jobs, study-abroad programs, internships, and graduate school. Their lives will be forever changed by the results of those applications, and they know it. I have seen students so jubilant over receiving an acceptance that they actually started "pogoing" right in front of me. I have also dealt with professors sending off their manuscripts to be published, administrators sending off grant applications, and higher administrators sending off the documentation that would enable the university's accreditation to be renewed—which it had taken a year to prepare. I have handed over live "critters" to the university's biologists and who-knows-what to the forensic anthropologist. I remember a professor coming to the window to mail a stack of letters of recommendation that he had written for his students. He remarked, "You know, coming to the post office is always a pleasant experience, because it always comes at the end of a lot of hard work." Most of the time, it wasn't my business to know what was inside any envelope or package, so I wouldn't have known unless the sender/recipient chose to tell me, but I found people were often willing, even eager, to talk about what they were doing. So I became adept at making a comment that would elicit a story. I found that comments were better than questions, because I didn't want to appear nosy—although I was! I would say things like "I bet you've waited a long time for this," and if the person was in the right mood, the story would come pouring out. Sometimes body language gives you a clue that people are willing to talk. If a person stood up straight and used a very businesslike tone of voice, then I would be businesslike also, and would leave them alone (beyond doing what they asked). But if they slumped over the counter and emitted a deep sigh as they handed over their package, it meant there was a story there waiting to be told. My point is: talking to strangers is a skill that can be learned, although most people probably learn it—or not—unconsciously. And we don't have to be always limited by our past habits or the habits of people around us. |
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17 Sep 10 - 01:50 PM (#2988811) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Q (Frank Staplin) On my first visit to Paris the taxi driver taking me to my hotel proceeded to give me a French lesson. I had mis-pronounced the street, and he led me through some useful vocabulary. When we got to the hotel (a small one used by air hostesses and pilots, on a side street) he drove me around the immediate neighborhood and showed me a couple of good places to eat and drink. Visits to Germany showed me that Germans were often rude and unhelpful. |
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17 Sep 10 - 02:46 PM (#2988850) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Charmion Wherever we go, people are always very willing to talk to me if I give them even a quarter of a chance. Often all I have to do is look directly at them; they start right up with hardly a moment of hesitation. Edmund says that he talks to a lot more strangers when he travels with me than he ever does when travelling alone. My theory is that casually dressed middle-aged women radiate No Threat Here. In Paris, I tripped over a high kerb and falling flat on my face. I did this outside one of the big flossy department stores near the Champs Élysées -- probably Au Printemps -- at the height of Christmas shopping season. As I lay bleeding on the sidewalk I hoped against hope that the Parisians would be too sophisticated to notice, but a beautifully dressed businessman and two passing lady shoppers gently scooped me up and shepherded me into a nearby café. They assessed me for broken bones (none) and scraped joints (three), established that I had money for a taxi back to my hotel, ordered a cup of coffee for me -- and left! Bless their souls. |
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17 Sep 10 - 07:21 PM (#2988986) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: McGrath of Harlow Different societies have different levels of friendliness - but there seem to be two situations which generally seem to make people more likely to be friendly. One is where they are dealing with people they know, and the other is where they are dealing with strangers. Of course it can work out the other way. |
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18 Sep 10 - 02:39 AM (#2989101) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Ebbie :), Kevin. |
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21 Sep 10 - 12:17 PM (#2990885) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: GUEST,HiLo Over the years I have travelled a fair bit ans I have observed that Canadians are the politest people Ihave encountered and The Irish the rudest..this is based solely on my experience and I may be wrong, but it is what I have observed. |
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21 Sep 10 - 03:30 PM (#2990997) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Rapparee An armed society is a polite society. -- Lazarus Long. FUDs (F****g Utah Drivers) come up north on I-15 from Salt Lake City, which ranks lower than Chicago or LA in terms of driver ability. Because they are "out in the country" and everyone up here is a hick, they drive like maniacs -- or rather, like they do at home. Chicago drivers have the same reputation in Wisconsin, where they are known as FIBs -- F'ing Illinois Bastards. My wife has noticed out here that there is a distinct tendency not to engage is simple courtesies such as holding the door, even if your arms are full. This seems to be tied especially to men belonging to a certain three-letter Church -- not all, but most. Elsewhere in the West such simple courtesies are extended. |
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21 Sep 10 - 04:03 PM (#2991017) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: olddude If you are hitch hiking in the middle east (not that you would) never stick out your thumb ... it is the same as the middle finger here ... even like we do when something is great and do the fonzie two thumbs up .. no that jesture doesn't travel well in other countries yah |
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21 Sep 10 - 05:59 PM (#2991083) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Joe_F I happen just to have read, in the Chri Sci Monster (20 Sept., p. 28), an astonishing example of southern tact. A black college professor, visiting Oxford, MS, stepped into a bar for some food. A white native sitting at the bar "said to no one in particular, but within Hooker's earshot", "I remember when they didn't let niggers in here." He replied, "That was crazy, wasn't it? I remember that too." That led to a friendly 45-min conversation. Hooker commented afterward, "He was asking to have a conversation about race -- he just didn't quite know how.... The reason I could hear that as an invitation is because I constantly remind myself that hurt people hurt people -- they're exposing you to a place of their own pain." Interesting article. |
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21 Sep 10 - 07:03 PM (#2991110) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: McGrath of Harlow And here it is - Beyond racism: lessons from the South on racial discrimination and prejudice |
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22 Sep 10 - 09:18 AM (#2991405) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: GUEST,Patsy Talking over or interrupting an adult when I was a child was considered very impolite and a big no no, I had to wait until the grown-ups had finished the conversation before saying anything. Children nowadays appear to chime in where and when they please which can be really off putting if you are trying to have a conversation. |
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22 Sep 10 - 09:54 AM (#2991420) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Stu My wife and I spent three weeks in the US in the Dakotas, Montana and Wyoming and were really impressed by the politeness and friendliness of the Americans. Everywhere we went, especially in the Dakotas people were chatty and wanted to know about our trip and often asked questions about Britain. They were polite, very helpful and never made us feel like w were a pain in the arse - which i felt we might have been once or twice. For instance, after a week digging dinosaurs in the North Dakota/Montana badlands we went into a small bar in a badlands town (pop 140). The second we went in we were offered a beer each by a chap we'd never met who was stood at the bar. By the end of the evening we'd made new friends and I chatted to one chap who had a fascinating story to tell, although in truth he look a tad rum. Just goes to show what they say about appearances is true. I enjoy chatting to people, and everyone has a story and in the US I could indulge this habit with the wonderful people we found there - even in Chicago we chatted to a nice couple in a piano bar and agreed that left to ordinary people, the world would be a better place. |
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22 Sep 10 - 11:08 AM (#2991473) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: GUEST,Patsy Talking of local ideas of etiquette you can find all kinds of differences for example in the bathroom while staying in places like Greece or Cuba you may find notices telling you to dispose of toilet tissue in a bin rather than flushed away, which can be confusing if you didn't get around to looking at the notice and being creatures of habit creating all kinds of problems like flooding out holiday rooms! After an experience like this in Cuba my son was on my case everytime, it was like the Spanish Inquisition. |
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22 Sep 10 - 11:29 AM (#2991486) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: McGrath of Harlow Children nowadays appear to chime in where and when they please which can be really off putting if you are trying to have a conversation. And I'm sure children find iy equally off-putting when adults do it. |
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22 Sep 10 - 11:20 PM (#2991955) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Tangledwood Talking over or interrupting an adult when I was a child was considered very impolite and a big no no, I had to wait until the grown-ups had finished the conversation before saying anything. Children nowadays appear to chime in where and when they please which can be really off putting if you are trying to have a conversation. But then so many adults talk over other adults too. Leading by example? |
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23 Sep 10 - 04:57 AM (#2992053) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: GUEST,Patsy This is very true how can they expect to know better when they see adults behaving that way. Really what I meant was compared to a long time ago. The older generation were from a different era ideas on etiquette were so different. Children are more opinionated, boisterous and confident today and sometimes I wonder if it isn't confused with bad manners by an older generation who had to live by different rules. |
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23 Sep 10 - 11:01 AM (#2992258) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Rapparee Etiquette requires us to admire the human race. --Mark Twain |
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23 Sep 10 - 11:15 AM (#2992272) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: ollaimh the waaater thing is definately showing you don't speak up to snuff, the glass was the hint. this is rarer now but "manners" in england are all about class. i had a cold on a train and sneezed and sniffled a few times on my last trip and an imperious woman and her husband got up to move to the back of the train saying"you're revolting". i gave her the finger and told her to stick it..., brits with pretensions to be upper class can still be jerks. i get a kick out of chatting with them while travellin as usually they are under educated or un educated just born to a bit of money. no point in trying to hang with them. now middle class and working class are easy to get along with, especially of you say you're canadian. the pretensions of lcass have mostly dissappeared there. i met a few tipsy sorts on friday or saturday night and i talked to them as i would talk to any one and had no problems. i think the reputation comes from a growing hostility to those with class pretensions. they used to be able to get away with murder, now they might get murdered for mouthing off at a partier on the weekend. in paris i got invited into peoples homes and had a great time. again it depends on your attitude. americans are friendly but they are domineering and the french hate that, and they have had several revolutions and hate the british class pretensions. they have their own pretensions of being the most cultured people in the world but it may be true. i got free places to stay, got invited to big private parties and had a great time in paris, and my spoken french was much worse back then, and i was a travelling hippy looking busker. soa lot depends on you attitude.. the french are very cultured and if you can get along you will find great music art and happenings . i should have stayed longer. |
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23 Sep 10 - 11:21 AM (#2992278) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Bill D I Wish I Loved the Human Race Sir Walter A Raleigh (1861-1922) I wish I loved the Human Race; I wish I loved its silly face; I wish I liked the way it walks; I wish I liked the way it talks; And when I'm introduced to one, I wish I thought "What Jolly Fun!" |
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23 Sep 10 - 12:54 PM (#2992354) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: Charmion Thanks, Bill. |
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24 Sep 10 - 05:55 AM (#2992789) Subject: RE: BS: Local ideas of etiquette / politeness From: GUEST,Patsy My mother was not very demonstrative with her affections when I was growing up, she did love me but didn't go into open displays of it so I hadn't been used to being hugged or kissed on the cheek by anyone not even family. Being painfully shy I just couldn't greet anyone like that either but now grown up having travelled a bit more and meeting people from all areas I tend to go with the affectionate greetings because it is mostly followed by a smile. So much better. |