yes, a flute with no fingerholes

19 Sep 10 - 10:36 PM (#2990051)
Subject: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: GUEST,leeneia

I never would have thought it possible. So many notes from a tylynka, a flute with no fingerholes. Have a listen.

CLICK HERE FOR YOUTUBE

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19 Sep 10 - 10:50 PM (#2990060)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: katlaughing

That is amazing. Some info I read said they were traditionally a shepherd's flute. There is a bio about the man playing it HERE. Quite accomplished, isn't he?

Thanks!

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19 Sep 10 - 11:03 PM (#2990064)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: GUEST,leeneia

You're welcome. Apparently there is a quiet renaissance going on, Eastern European music being rediscovered and recorded again. It has to do with the influx of Europeans into America after the fall of communism.

Notice that this Ukrainian attended Michigan State.

Thanks for your link, kat.

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19 Sep 10 - 11:06 PM (#2990065)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: Crowhugger

Yes, thanks! Incredible to see and hear, almost magic. This reminds me of how players get so many notes from a natural (no valve, no slide) trumpet. Perhaps the same rules of physics at work. This flutist seems to be using the end hole to vary the available notes, but siince it doesn't change the length of the air column I don't quite see how it works. Hopefully someone here in the know will fill me in!

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19 Sep 10 - 11:15 PM (#2990069)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: katlaughing

Me, too, CW! I saw him use the endhole for a kind of tremolo, but don't understand how he's getting the different notes unless it is purely breath control. I know on the Native American flute, if I don't have my breath just right and my fingers properly on the fingerholes, I get different notes, usually different octaves, though I haven't paid enough attention to notice if they are true octaves or random notes. I have some research to do.:-)

leeneia, pretty neat isn't it? I was really impressed with his bio. I love that we are hearing more and more ethnic music this way. Thanks, again.

kat

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20 Sep 10 - 02:47 AM (#2990105)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: The Fooles Troupe

I have had one of those in a fipple flute version - a whistle for years.

It's tricky at first, but you just play it with the overblows and restricting the outlet with the cupped palm of your hand. It's just as easy/tricky to play as getting a spot on pitch on a slide whistle ... :-)

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20 Sep 10 - 02:48 AM (#2990106)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: The Fooles Troupe

... or a turkey baster .... :-)

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20 Sep 10 - 03:54 AM (#2990122)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: GUEST,Grishka

Explained under Telenka in Wikipedia. Quite different from a natural trumpet.

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20 Sep 10 - 04:12 AM (#2990126)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: The Fooles Troupe

What I play is no Telenka, it is an aluminum tube fipple flute (whistle) with no finger holes - thus probably should be called a dentsivka - the hand cupped around the end creates the pitch like a Helmholtz Resonator.

Wikipedia -> The dentsivka is often commonly called a sopilka, however, it differs from the true sopilka in that the dentsivka has a fipple, like the western European recorder. It is thus classified as a duct flute.

I seem to remember it was an Overton.

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20 Sep 10 - 05:08 AM (#2990138)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: GUEST,Ralphie

I've got one as well, made by Anders Norrodar from Hedningarna (Swedish band) made from traditional Swedish plastic tubing...!
Ale Moller (Filarfolket and allround musical God) plays one too.
It's all about breath control. Still trying to get my mouth round it, so to speak!

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20 Sep 10 - 05:20 AM (#2990140)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: Jack Campin

"Tilinko" in Hungarian. Look up Andras Hodorog playing it on YouTube (he's from the Csango Hungarian minority in eastern Romania).

One of the cleverest flutes like this used to be played in Melanesia. It was a very long thin piece of cane - so long that your arm would never reach the end to stop it. So they bent it round into a semicircle, held in shape by a bowstring.

I sometimes noodle around with a Howard low whistle mouthpiece attached to six feet of PVC pipe. You can get a lot more out of it than you'd expect.

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20 Sep 10 - 06:29 AM (#2990165)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray

Almost forgot my Troll Pipe which I made some years back for storytelling use. This is basically an overtone pipe made from an old whistle mouthpiece on a length of copper pipe with a bowed drone string resonated by a small tabourine. For images & sound sample click HERE

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20 Sep 10 - 03:45 PM (#2990433)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray

Some reasonably priced Koncovka in a variety of useful keys...

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20 Sep 10 - 10:18 PM (#2990613)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: The Fooles Troupe

"the technique having nothing to do with Helmholtz Resonator, or tricky pitching just simply stopping the end-hole with your finger or palm, thus doubling the harmonic for the overtone scale, which are controlled by overblowing."

Well, that's true for THAT family of instruments, but if you are only doing 'overtones by overblows', you ARE doing something like the 'trumpet overtone series'. The instrument I own and play does not work like this. It works by changing the volume of the space enclosed by the cupped hand over the open unblown end AND doing the 'overblow series' - in fact it plays more like a Tabor Pipe (which I have also played!) - if that's not Helmholtz Effect involved in changing the resonant cavity with the cupped hand, I'll accept correction by someone who knows more Real Science than I. :-)

And I seem to remember that the maker of this whistle was "Overton". I don't have it here but seem to remember that it is stamped "G" - basically like a Low G undrilled Overton whistle body.

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20 Sep 10 - 10:59 PM (#2990618)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: catspaw49

"A flute with no holes is not a flute and a donut with no hole is a Danish."...............Chevy Chase in "Caddyshack"


Spaw

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21 Sep 10 - 07:12 AM (#2990755)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray

Still not sure what you're driving at here, Foolestroupe - I've spent much of the morning with the finger holes of my Overton G Tabor Pipe taped up & cupping my hand over the end in all sorts of ways, thus effecting the intonation of individual notes, but nothing by way of a Helmholtz Resonator (an ocarina basically) with respect of actual notes. In playing a standard overtone flute one might cup the hand in such a way on the open notes but only to bend them & effect semi & quarter tones as all the actual notes occur as the harmonics of the pipe.

Here's another of Nadishana's amazing demos with the technique quite visible:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk2obS_jEpc

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21 Sep 10 - 10:04 AM (#2990818)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: The Fooles Troupe

Ah well, some can do it, some can't - better than me have done it before me, which is why I was inspired to buy the instrument and determined to do it myself ... so keep trying ... :-)

"as all the actual notes occur as the harmonics of the pipe"

Limited thought processes will only just prevent you learning a new skill!


"effecting the intonation of individual notes, but nothing by way of a Helmholtz Resonator (an ocarina basically) with respect of actual notes"

You did it! You just refuse to believe that impedance loading the end of the tube in the way described imparts a Helmholtz type effect! You are just obsessed with the word/concept 'ocarina' which is blocking your natural rational analytic and creative thought processes! Do you know anything how a bell on a woodwind instrument works? This is what you are creating with your cupped hand! It EXTENDS the bore and DROPS the tone generated by increasing the wavelength - I don't have the instrument here, but from memory, the Low G Pipe, when handled properly, got a pitch down to Low D - when played like a Tabor pipe - the useful range of 'full scale' pitches was thus up an octave - just like a Tabor Pipe - in the range of a 'normal' D - like a standard Generation D. Because of the complexity, you could often get the same ACTUAL PERCEIVED pitch by EITHER changing the breath pressure OR changing the volume cupping in the hand. Who cares about the Physics? You apparently would not believe the way French Horns work either....

"In playing a standard overtone flute one might cup the hand in such a way on the open notes but only to bend them & effect semi & quarter tones as all the actual notes occur as the harmonics of the pipe."

Limited thought processes will just prevent you learning a new skill! WHY do you refuse to believe that you can also affect the overtone series notes?!!! Maybe you JUST haven't DONE IT yourself YET! Have you never played a Tabor Pipe! What I am describing is more like in effect a 'Trombone Tabor Pipe'!!!! :-)

Just what is the difference in your mind (and the unnecessary limitations you place up on your thought processes!) between what you claim as 'actual' notes and 'effected' (actually you mean AFFECTED) notes - they are BOTH ACTUAL NOTES THE INSTRUMENT AS PLAYED the way I describe PRODUCES!!!!!

I don't care if you believe (or are unable to do it yourself!!!!!), I have nothing to prove, and I'm not making this up!

As a Piano Accordion Player, I have watched those who have played for years (mostly self taught!) stunned to watch me do the 'bellows shake' technique (something they OBVIOUSLY have never seen nor heard before, that took me many hours of practice to learn!) try to tell me I am doing something wrong! - yet Accordion Tutor Courses from the 1920/30/40s (I have copies!) teach it as an 'Advanced Technique'. I've also had self appointed 'experts' try to tell me that I should never play using only one set of keyboard reeds at a time! - I am supposedly using the instrument wrongly!! In my experience, the ignorant (and those without a full and proper education in a field) self appointed 'experts' are often 'just full of sh*t' - especially when they have not experienced such things previously themselves, or not been shown by those only they respect as 'experts' - they will often need to put down someone or something 'new to them'.... If I listened to such self appointed 'experts' Conrad would be my muse!

I don't wish to insult you, or even care if you believe (or are unable to do it yourself!!!!!), I have nothing to prove, and I'm not making this up!

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21 Sep 10 - 10:06 AM (#2990821)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: The Fooles Troupe

"Here's another of Nadishana's amazing demos with the technique quite visible:"

This is NOT what I am describing!

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21 Sep 10 - 10:23 AM (#2990829)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: bubblyrat

We at Marlow Bottom Acoustic Club get treated to this kind of stuff most Wednesdays , courtesy of Fred Cairns,our very own Irishman who is a gifted player of these kinds of instruments.His beard is something wonderful to behold,as well !

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21 Sep 10 - 11:12 AM (#2990859)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray

I have nothing to prove, and I'm not making this up!

Hold on there Foolestroupe - methinks you protest too much; a definite overreaction to what was, in truth, a simply enquiry. I'm curious that's all - and frankly baffled; if this technique does indeed exist then it's the first I've heard of it in 42 years of blowing down whistles, flutes, reeds & horns of all shapes & sizes. Yes I play tabor pipe - and yes I know how French Horns work; I also play clarinet, pocket cornet and have even played Hunting Horns with Hunt Sabs so I know about pitch bending. Some examples of this mystery technique of yours would be welcome...

*

Meanwhile, here's a wee film from Sept 2004 I did the music for which features an overtone flute in consort with other folk instruments - koboz, crwth, melodica, ducks, warblers, bells and diverse fowler calls...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRC75b1NXGI

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21 Sep 10 - 12:31 PM (#2990897)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: GUEST,leeneia

I don't know for sure, so this is just an idea to explore.

We usually think of a flute (or other wind instrument) as an instrument which makes music in its own right. However, another approach is to think of it as an accessory which merely modifies the musician's breath. i.e. the musician is shaping the notes in his mouth and throat, and the flute amplifies and modifies that breath as it passes through.

I play recorder, and sometimes I seem to play one way and sometimes the other. But with an instrument as simple as the tylyka, the production of notes may depend more than usual on what notes the musician is making himself, with his vocal cords and pharynx.

Something to think about, anyway.

(Thanks for the links, Suibhne Astray.)

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21 Sep 10 - 03:26 PM (#2990993)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: Crowhugger

Thanks to all for the links above. I gather that what the overtone flutes do have in common with a natural trumpet is the reliance on overtones to get the notes of the scale, and perhaps also on bending those notes to vary their intonation. Of course they differ in how they get the column of air to vibrate. The slide whistle isn't along these lines i.e. a fixed-length column of air, rather it uses the slide to change the note by changing the length of vibrating air.

The overtone flute in any of its forms is a wonderfully simple instrument that obviously can be versatile under the right player.

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21 Sep 10 - 04:09 PM (#2991021)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: Jack Campin

I'd like to see a video demonstrating what Foolestroupe is talking about, too. Since Helmholtz resonators/ocarinas don't produce any higher harmonics at all, it's hard to see how any hybrid between ocarina and overtone flute could work.

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21 Sep 10 - 05:16 PM (#2991054)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: Tootler

I have my doubts about the Helmholtz Resonator as well. I had a hunt round the web, and as far as I could figure out, without going into the maths, the effect of putting your hand over the end of the pipe was to turn an open pipe into a closed pipe. So I tried it with my Bb Susato 3 hole pipe and the effect of blocking the end of the pipe (with the finger holes covered) was to lower the pitch by a minor third - from Bb to Gb on the second harmonic and F to D on the third harmonic. An imperfect closed pipe?

That means to get a diatonic scale you need to overblow to at least the fourth harmonic. I could manage it on my tabor pipe, but it was getting very shrieky.

Foolestroupe was claiming a difference of a fourth (G to D). Possibly; a full tone more than I achieved with my tabor pipe.

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21 Sep 10 - 06:13 PM (#2991089)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: Crowhugger

Tootler, is the pipe that gives this result (lowering 2nd harmonic by minor 3rd) a cylindrical or conical bore? If you have this info.

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21 Sep 10 - 06:54 PM (#2991107)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: The Fooles Troupe

Watching what I do will probably not help, it didn't help me much I had to just make it work by 'thinking the notes' - with such an approach, unless you BELIEVE that you will get the hang of it, and keep adjusting your hand positions till it works, you probably never will.

"Since Helmholtz resonators/ocarinas don't produce any higher harmonics at all"

WHAT?!!!!!


"the effect of putting your hand over the end of the pipe was to turn an open pipe into a closed pipe"

ONLY IF YOU CLOSE IT ENTIRELY!!!!!!!! I DON'T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I said that I was EXTENDING the (open) LENGTH of the tube - but since the extra length added by (what people who play the intrument like me and I learnt about from others) the cupped hands length is less than the extra physical length needed if it were acting JUST AS A plain TUBE, - THEN OTHER PHYSICS IS ACTING! And get the fixed idea of 'blocking totally the end of the tube' that is not happening!

If you play the French Horn, then you must be doing it by rote "you just do this to get this note", understanding the physics (field of acoustics) is another matter.

Forget Helholtz, forget ocarina, just think 'impedance increase affecting pitch' as 'like' muting a trumpet or trombone.

OK - you don't believe, The earth is Flat, I'm tired of this - Goodbye!

Robin

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21 Sep 10 - 07:38 PM (#2991132)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: Tootler

Crowhugger,

The pipe is cylindrical bore. In fact, it is one of these; the Bb version of the one on the right.

Foolestroupe,

It has nothing to do with flat earth. You are simply not making sense and shouting doesn't make things any clearer. For that reason, a video demonstration showing how exactly you vary the pitch of your pipe will be very helpful in clarifying what are trying, unsuccessfully, to describe.

What I did was to follow what others were doing on various You Tube videos. For the most part they were either stopping the end of the tube with the flat of the hand or with a finger. The effect of gradually opening or closing the end of the tube, in my case was to vary the pitch continuously over the range of a minor third. Being able to vary the pitch over a wider range by covering the end of the pipe in some way could be very useful.

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21 Sep 10 - 07:42 PM (#2991133)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: Jack Campin

Since Helmholtz resonators/ocarinas don't produce any higher harmonics at all
WHAT?!!!!!

They don't. Why the surprise?

I play the ocarina quite a lot. Blow as you would to get a tube flute to overblow, and you either just get a loud sharp fundamental or a rush of air and no tone. A Helmholtz resonator has no associated overtone series. That's what makes it a useful research tool.


OTHER PHYSICS IS ACTING

End correction effects, maybe? They're not easy to calculate even for regular geometry and can be quite large.

Which is why a video would help, the details of what you're doing with your hands matters.

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21 Sep 10 - 07:57 PM (#2991144)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: The Fooles Troupe

The capital/italics were to separate and make certain terms stand out.

I'm getting old, I'm in pain, and I'm cranky - The hands also may not do it easily any more - Thanks Arthritis, my old friend!

If you want a personal demo (no videos!) - send cash - if you want lessons, send more. Why shouldn't I profit from a skill that apparently nobody else can do? :-P

I don't care - just forget it, or work it out for yourselves from first principles like I did.

:-(

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21 Sep 10 - 09:30 PM (#2991179)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: GUEST,leeneia

Foolstroupe said: I had to just make it work by 'thinking the notes'

This may be what I was trying to explain when I posted a message above, about shaping the notes before they hit the instrument.

Consider the Alpenhorn, which is many feet long long and rests on the ground in front of the player's feet. Obviously any changes in the pitch have to come from the player's mouth, throat or lungs, because there is absolutely nothing to touch.

Hold on a minute, and I'll post a link.

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21 Sep 10 - 09:42 PM (#2991187)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: GUEST,leeneia

After a brief introduction by the mc, a charming Swiss teenager plays the Alpenhorn in this YouTube video. The horn is clearly much longer than she is tall.

swiss cutie

I've tried to see evidence that she is making the notes in her mouth, but except for the well-known fact that high eyebrows help high notes, no luck.

It is nice to see that they have repealed the law that you have to wear Lederhosen and a felt hat with a feather in it when you play Alpenhorn.

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21 Sep 10 - 10:53 PM (#2991198)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: The Fooles Troupe

"The resonator in the ocarina can create overtones" - Wikipedia.

Bloody W*nkers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:-P

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21 Sep 10 - 11:00 PM (#2991199)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: The Fooles Troupe

QUOTE
"The resonant frequency of a Helmholtz resonator depends on its volume, and a cylindrical resonator permits the volume of the resonator to be changed by sliding the tubes in and out. The notes (and hence the resonant frequencies) are engraved on the side of the apparatus. This is one of a number of tunable Helmholtz resonators at the University of Vermont. "

UNQUOTE

Google it if you want to find it!

A Helmholtz resonator does not have to be egg shaped - Helmholtz's first ones were cylindrical - oh bloody hell a tubular whistle feeding cupped hands!!!!! Bloody hell - changing the volume of the hands changes the pitch produced!!!!!

Refer to my previous rant about ignorant self taught piano accordion players bullshitting about me 'playing the instrument wrongly'!!!

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21 Sep 10 - 11:01 PM (#2991200)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: The Fooles Troupe

Sigh!

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21 Sep 10 - 11:15 PM (#2991203)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: The Fooles Troupe

QUOTE
"Some small whistles are Helmholtz oscillators. The air in the body of a guitar acts almost like a Helmholtz resonator*. An ocarina is a slightly more complicated example. Loudspeaker enclosures often use the Helmholtz resonance of the enclosure to boost the low frequency response."
UNQUOTE

Look it up!

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21 Sep 10 - 11:27 PM (#2991207)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: The Fooles Troupe

QUOTE
"The Helmholtz resonator consists of a known volume (of any shape) with rigid walls and a small hole in one side. ... Note that the resonator does not utilize standing waves, as do most other acoustic resonators. "

UNQUOTE

Look it up!

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21 Sep 10 - 11:52 PM (#2991220)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: The Fooles Troupe

QUOTE
An example. A spherical Helmholtz resonator with a volume of 0.00292 m3and a cylindrical neck with length 0.080 m and cross-sectional area 0.00083 m2To excite it, he struck it with the palm of his hand and then released it. A microphone inside the resonator records the sound, which is shown in the oscillogram at left. You can see that the hand seals the resonator for rather less than 0.1 s, and that during this time the oscillations are weaker and of relatively high frequency. Once the hand is released, an oscillation is established, which gradually dies away as it loses energy through viscous and turbulent drag, and also by sound radiation. Close examination shows that the frequency rises slightly as the hand moves away from the open end, because this the hand restricts the solid angle available for radiation and thus increases the end effect.

UNQUOTE

Look it up!

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22 Sep 10 - 12:16 AM (#2991224)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: The Fooles Troupe

Now I'm pissed enough to rise above the flu .... ahh adrenalin ..

Bloody minded pedant mode on:

An ocarina is not a closed vessel, like a milk bottle - it works on the basis of 'fluid flow' and the outlet size is varied to change the impedance coupling to the outside (changing the resonant frequency) - either too much or not enough outflow will extinguish the oscillation which can normally rang over about a octave. Overtones exist, but at about 10 times the oscillation frequency, so an assumption is made that it does not affect the waveform. The sound generation is not relevant to the dimensions of the cavity - i.e. is independent of the length of the longest dimension.

Bloody minded pedant mode off:

The instrument I have been talking about performing on is a long relatively narrow diameter tube with a fipple feeding a small adjustable spherical volume with varying impedance due to variable venting via gaps that are created between the fingers enclosing the spherical cavity in the end effect area. While it is performing as a tube, the end effect if not Helmholtz, needs to be explained in terms of Real Science, not just hand waving. Do not forget that the mouth/throat cavity also affects the sound generation in terms of damping/reinforcing fundamental/overtones. This is NOT the instruments that inspired this thread, don't get confused.

"shaping the notes before they hit the instrument"

Yep the way I play a whistle is to think the note - which actually shapes the inside of my mouth and throat - this changes the resonance capabilities of the waveform which extends back before the fipple and into my mouth/head/throat cavity - this has a definite effect in changing pitch (especially in making rapid changes!) - and is why I was able to lean the 'octave jump' so rapidly when learning the instrument - I can also precisely jump form any note in the normal 2 octaves up or down to any other note.

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22 Sep 10 - 04:44 AM (#2991290)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray

I've tried to see evidence that she is making the notes in her mouth, but except for the well-known fact that high eyebrows help high notes, no luck.

The Alphorn is a very long natural horn which enables a lot of higher harmonics to be overblown above the fundamental by lip & breath pressure alone. The obvious limitations of such an instrument were overcome by the invention of the slide-trumpet in the middle ages (most favoured of angels!) and later by the sackbut / trombone. Valves came along still later, faciliating another level of versatility. The girl in the video is using her lip & breath pressure alone to excite the natural harmonics of the horn - try it yourself next time you're in a hardware store by blowing a raspberries down a long piece of inch-diameter piping!

'impedance increase affecting pitch' as 'like' muting a trumpet or trombone.

Mutes don't effect pitch - if they did they wouldn't be much use.

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22 Sep 10 - 05:44 AM (#2991312)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: Jack Campin

People tend to think of end correction effects (if they think of them at all) as happening at the far end of the whistle. In fact they're more significant at the fipple end - this was discovered by the French organ builder Lefebure-Wely in the 19th century (the details are in Lord Rayleigh's book if I remember right, or maybe A.B. Wood).

One way to exploit that is by holding your finger close to the fipple. You can wobble the pitch up and down quite a lot.

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22 Sep 10 - 08:39 AM (#2991391)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray

Just made one of the plastic pipe Overtone Flutes as demonstrated on YouTube (see link above someplace) which took about 5 minutes. I was so excited with the results I recorded a wee improv, so here's some real-time musical storytelling that took almost as long to record as it took to make the flute! The key is arbitary; they recommend a 50:1 ratio of pipe length to bore, which on an end blown fipple was way too long for my arm, so I cut a chunk off which brings it in at somewhere between G# & A. Fortunately my electronic Shruti Box is fully tuneable...   

http://soundcloud.com/sedayne/eventyr-22-9-2010

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22 Sep 10 - 10:10 AM (#2991431)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: GUEST,leeneia

Bless you, Suibhne. That is wonderful!

Thanks for explaining about the Alpenhorn.

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22 Sep 10 - 10:24 AM (#2991438)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: John P

maybe what Foolestroupe is talking about is what I do sometimes with a recorder mouthpiece: using only the mouthpiece, cup the hand over the open end and slowly slide the hole open. The pitch varies by most of an octave. Sounds sort of like a theremin. Not particularly useful.

The seljefløyte I have, however, is a very cool thing.

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22 Sep 10 - 12:34 PM (#2991519)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: GUEST,leeneia

The recorder is also very sensitive to how far your thumb is from the thumbhole. I don't mean just the mouthpiece, I mean the assembled recorder.

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23 Sep 10 - 08:50 PM (#2992627)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: The Fooles Troupe

When some ignorant clown tries to tell me that Helholtz resonators produce NO overtones which is why they are 'brilliant for scientific research'.

Rubbish - they produce overtones at above 10 times the fundamental (so 200-400 Hz fundamental will produce overtones at 2-4 Khz!) - unlike tubes and rods which have ratios of 2x 3x, etc

Every side blown flute and end blown fipple whistle has a Helmholtz resonator at the 'cork end' which if not properly tuned will give the instrument poor performance, especially at higher frequencies!!!

The experienced intelligentsia just CAN'T let such foolish ignorance go unanswered!

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23 Sep 10 - 09:21 PM (#2992644)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: Jack Campin

I have Helmholtz's book in front of me so I know what he intended his resonators to be used for. If they had audible overtones there would have been no point in making them. (Helmholtz just says any other tones produced by a resonator are "very distant" from the prime tone, he doesn't analyze them at all).

Can you construct anything that makes those 10x overtones perceptible? Are you saying they're musically relevant?

I can't imagine why you would want to invoke Helmholtz resonators as components of a flute. These days anybody who wants to get detailed answers can just simulate the flute directly, doing numerical solution of the relevant partial differential equations. Computers have been fast enough for that to work for about ten years now.

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23 Sep 10 - 09:37 PM (#2992651)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: The Fooles Troupe

"I can't imagine why you would want to invoke Helmholtz resonators as components of a flute."

Sadly you have now willingly joined the ranks of 'Conrad's Army of Incompetent Uneducated Sef Important Pseudo-Musicians'

Let tell you about the concept of "Lies To Children" - what you appear to think you know about Helmholtz Resonators is a very simplified idea based on Assumptions to ignore complexity that work for an Ocarina, but are critical in the wider reality!

I do wish people would do their own research!

Start at this University - Flute acoustics: an introduction

and follow all the links

After you have read the section on "The cork and the 'upstream space'"

I look forward to your public apology! "I can't imagine why you would want to invoke Helmholtz resonators as components of a flute." - indeed!

QUOTE
The cork and the 'upstream space'
Between the point where the embouchure riser meets the main bore of the flute and cork in the closed end of the instrument is a small volume of air. The cork is normally positioned to be about 17 mm from the centre of the embouchure hole (the exact value varies from player to player - see tuning wind instruments). Any very substantial variation seriously upsets the internal tuning of the flute. So how does this work?

Diagram of cross section showing cork, embouchure etc

This 'upstream air' acts like a spring - when you compress it, the pressure rises. The air in the embouchure riser tube can be considered as a mass. Together they can resonate like a mass bouncing on a spring (ie they form a Helmholtz resonator).This has a resonance over a broad range of frequencies, but centred at about 5 kHz. At much lower frequencies, which is to say over the playing range of the flute, it acts as an impedance in parallel with the main part of the bore, but an impedance whose magnitude decreases with frequency. The primary effect of this is good: with the cork correctly placed, it compensates for the frequency dependent end effects at the other end of the flute and so keeps the registers in tune with each other. On the other hand, it does reduce the variation in impedance with frequency when the frequency approaches the Helmholtz resonance, and so is one of the effects that limits the upper range of the instrument. If you push the cork in, as Charanga style players do, you can go further up into the fourth octave, but at the expense of having an instrument whose octaves are badly out of tune. If you want to know more about this effect, download our technical paper about it. To scale the highest reaches of the flute's range, search for 'high playability' fingerings on the virtual flute and the report on F#7 and G7
UNQUOTE

AARGGGGHHHHHH! said Charlie Brown!

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24 Sep 10 - 01:38 AM (#2992709)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: The Fooles Troupe

Bloody Hell!
The post above containing the wrongful & spurious claim

"A Helmholtz resonator has no associated overtone series."

which as an apparent indisputable 'statement of fact' now has been referenced by Google and the misleading crap will now continue to spread, thus misleading others!!!

Just to clear things up, if anybody is actually following this thread!, here are some dispellings of the oversimplification 'lies to children' approach...

"Overtones is mental garbage"

From Wikipedia

QUOTE
In Hermann von Helmholtz's classic "On The Sensations Of Tone" he used the German "Obertöne" which was actually a contraction of "Oberpartialtöne", or in English: "upper partial tones". However, due to the similarity of German "ober" to English "over", a Prof. Tyndall mistranslated Helmholtz' term, thus creating "overtone." This created unfortunate confusion, adding an additional term that is somewhat unclear and has unfortunate mystical connotations. This has also led to the idea that if there are overtones, perhaps there are "undertones" - which is a term sometimes confused with "difference tones". In contrast, the correct translation of "upper partial tones" does not have any problematic implications. Alexander Ellis, on pages 24–25 of his definitive English translation of Helmholtz, makes clear all the unfortunate confusion of this mistranslation which entered common usage. Ellis strongly suggests the avoidance of the term "overtone". [1]
UNQUOTE


Some more useful and correct quotes follow:

An overtone is any frequency higher than the fundamental frequency of a sound. The fundamental and the overtones together are called partials. Harmonics are partials whose frequencies are whole number multiples of the fundamental (including the fundamental which is 1 times itself.) These overlapping terms are variously used when discussing the acoustic behavior of musical instruments. Due to a translation error in its coining, Alexander J. Ellis strongly suggested avoiding the term overtone in deference to upper partial (simple) tones.[1] (See etymology below.)
Vibrational modes of an ideal string, dividing the string length into integer divisions, producing harmonic partials f, 2f, 3f, 4f, etc. (where f means fundamental frequency).

When a resonant system such as a blown pipe or plucked string is excited, a number of overtones may be produced along with the fundamental tone. In simple cases, such as for most musical instruments, the frequencies of these tones are the same as (or close to) the harmonics. An example of an exception is a circular drum, whose first overtone is about 1.6 times its fundamental resonance frequency.[2] The human vocal tract is able to produce a highly variable structure of overtones, called formants, which define different vowels.

An overtone is a partial (a "partial wave" or "constituent frequency") that can be either a harmonic partial (a harmonic) other than the fundamental, or an inharmonic partial. A harmonic frequency is an integer multiple of the fundamental frequency. An inharmonic frequency is a non-integer multiple of a fundamental frequency.

Some musical instruments produce overtones that are slightly sharper or flatter than true harmonics. The sharpness or flatness of their overtones is one of the elements that contributes to their unique sound. This also has the effect of making their waveforms not perfectly periodic.

Musical instruments that can create notes of any desired duration and definite pitch have harmonic partials. A tuning fork, provided it is sounded with a mallet (or equivalent) that is reasonably soft, has a tone that consists very nearly of the fundamental, alone; it has a sinusoidal waveform. Nevertheless, music consisting of pure sinusoids was found to be unsatisfactory in the early 20th century.

Most oscillators, from a guitar string to a bell (or even the hydrogen atom or a periodic variable star) will naturally vibrate at a series of distinct frequencies known as normal modes. The lowest normal mode frequency is known as the fundamental frequency, while the higher frequencies are called overtones. Often, when an oscillator is excited by, for example, plucking a guitar string, it will oscillate at several of its modal frequencies at the same time. So when a note is played, this gives the sensation of hearing other frequencies (overtones) above the lowest frequency (the fundamental).

Timbre is the quality that gives the listener the ability to distinguish between the sound of different instruments. The timbre of an instrument is determined by which overtones it emphasizes. That is to say, the relative volumes of these overtones to each other determines the specific "flavor" or "color" of sound of that family of instruments. The intensity of each of these overtones is rarely constant for the duration of a note. Over time, different overtones may decay at different rates, causing the relative intensity of each overtone to rise or fall independent of the overall volume of the sound. A carefully trained ear can hear these changes even in a single note. This is why the timbre of a note may be perceived differently when played staccato or legato.

A driven non-linear oscillator, such as the human voice, a blown wind instrument, or a bowed violin string (but not a struck guitar string or bell) will oscillate in a periodic, non-sinusoidal manner. This generates the impression of sound at integer multiple frequencies of the fundamental known as harmonics. For most string instruments and other long and thin instruments such as a trombone or bassoon, the first few overtones are quite close to integer multiples of the fundamental frequency, producing an approximation to a harmonic series. Thus, in music, overtones are often called harmonics. Depending upon how the string is plucked or bowed, different overtones can be emphasized.

However, some overtones in some instruments may not be of a close integer multiplication of the fundamental frequency, thus causing a small dissonance. "High quality" instruments are usually built in such a manner that their individual notes do not create disharmonious overtones. In fact, the flared end of a brass instrument is not to make the instrument sound louder, but to correct for tube length "end effects" that would otherwise make the overtones significantly different from integer harmonics. This is illustrated by the following:

Consider a guitar string. Its idealized 1st overtone would be exactly twice its fundamental if its length was shortened by ½, say by lightly pressing a guitar string at the 12th fret. However, if a vibrating string is examined, it will be seen that the string does not vibrate flush to the bridge and nut, but has a small "dead length" of string at each end. This dead length actually varies from string to string, being more pronounced with thicker and/or stiffer strings. This means that halving the physical string length does not halve the actual string vibration length, and hence, the overtones will not be exact multiples of a fundamental frequency. The effect is so pronounced that properly set up guitars will angle the bridge such that the thinner strings will progressively have a length up to few millimeters shorter than the thicker strings. Not doing so would result in inharmonious chords made up of two or more strings. Similar considerations apply to tube instruments.

In barbershop music, the word overtone is often used in a different (though related) way. It refers to a psychoacoustic effect in which a listener hears an audible pitch that is higher than, and different from, the four pitches being sung by the quartet. This is not a standard dictionary usage of the word "overtone." The barbershop singer's "overtone" is created by the interactions of the upper partial tones in each singer's note (and by sum and difference frequencies created by nonlinear interactions within the ear). Similar effects can be found in other a cappella polyphonic music such as the music of the Republic of Georgia.

String instruments can also produce multiphonic tones when strings are divided in two pieces. The most developed instrument for playing multiphonic tones is the Sitar in which there are sympathetic strings which help to bring out the overtones while one is playing. The most well-known technique on a guitar is playing flageolet tones. The Ancient Chinese instrument the Guqin contains a scale based on the knotted positions of overtones. Also the Vietnamese Đàn bầu functions on flageolet tones. Other multiphonic extended techniques used are prepared piano, prepared guitar and 3rd bridge.

Overtone singing, also called harmonic singing, occurs when the singer amplifies voluntarily two overtones in the sequence available given the fundamental tone he/she is singing. Overtone singing is a traditional form of singing in many parts of the Himalayas and Altay; Tibetans, Mongols and Tuvans are known for their overtone singing. In these contexts it is often referred to as throat singing, though it should not be confused with Inuit throat singing, which is produced by different means.

A similar technique is used for playing the Jew's harp: the performer amplifies the instrument's overtones by changing the shape, and therefore the resonance, of their mouth.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Most of the musical references you will see relating to 'harmonics' and 'overtones' refer only to the oversimplified 'lies to children' approach involving vibrating lengths of air or solids, in which the 2x 3x etc stuff applies. None of this applies to 'Helholtz resonators' (HRs) which involve ONLY the property of a resonating fluid VOLUME.

Consider the 'embouchure flute', you not only have the HR at the cork end, you also have one at the other end, which is also subject to 'fluid flow' modifications. Both of these HRs are also acting simultaneously with the 'vibrating length of a fluid' model.

If the volume of the cork end HR is X, then the volume of the other HR end is ~ nX. Since the fundamental Frequency of the cork end HR is F, the Fundamental Frequency of the other HR end approaches ~ nF.

Since I don't have one in front of me to measure, lets just say x is (for simplicity, and for those who like to think with real numbers instead of algebra variables!) 10.... so you see that the longer HR starts to impose significant effects on the modifications of the higher produced tones and partials!


"I can't imagine why you would want to invoke Helmholtz resonators as components of a flute. These days anybody who wants to get detailed answers can just simulate the flute directly, doing numerical solution of the relevant partial differential equations"

... and those simulations make assumptions that compensate for the HR effects by making guesses and including constants... ignorance is not bliss!

I suppose you as an expert are to trying tell me that Ocarinas produce NO PARTIALS, ie produce ONLY SINUSOIDAL WAVEFORMS?

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24 Sep 10 - 04:34 AM (#2992755)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: The Fooles Troupe

"Mutes reduce the volume of an instrument - no Helmholtz effect"

Ahhh --- lies to children ... :-)


Mutes do not, with the exception of such as drums just reduce the volume by just absorbing energy (but then are lots of things happening there too) ... they primarily interfere with the composition of the partial overtones which primarily causes a perceived change in timbre (and thus perceived volume) - absorption of some energy in the process also causes a perceived lowering of volume.

Mutes on string instruments work by increasing the mass of the bridge, altering the partial overtones transmitted, and thus the timbre. Mutes on wind instruments can either fit inside the instrument - reducing the volume of vibrating air which alters the partials, or be fitted externally, which also affects the volume of the vibrating air - some trumpets will alter timbre when just directed towards the orchestral music stand! This is because the effective volume of the vibrating air which extends beyond the end (end effect) is effectively limited (changed in volume!).

Helmholtz effects occur massively in musical instruments, even guitars.... :-)

... and they occur widely in all sorts of areas of life - a partly would down car window sets the car inside resonating - Helmholtz! Things like exhausts, and air intakes once were thought to resonate only on the tubular length, now it is understood that HR volume effects are critical too!

... from recent research ... our understanding of things change as more research is done - just reading a book published a century ago will likely just mislead one unless one knows that ideas change with time and research ...

QUOTE
A Helmholtz resonator, consisting of a resonating cavity with an open neck, was filled with spheres to determine the effects on the resonant frequency. A function generator and speaker were used to excite the resonator, and Fourier analysis was used to find the resonant frequency. Two sizes of marbles, glass beads, and water were used separately to fill the resonator. Frequency measurements were made at a wide range of open volumes by filling the resonator with different amounts of spheres. The volume of the spheres and the distance from the top of the resonator to the top of the spheres were measured as well. Comparisons of the resonant frequencies of spheres and water at the same height were investigated. It was found that the resonant frequency for water was much higher than the resonant frequency for spheres at the same height, indicating that the air pockets in between the spheres are having an effect on the resonant frequency. In addition, the change in frequency as a function of open volume for both the water and the spheres was studied. A peak in the resonant frequency for the spheres was observed at a certain critical open volume, approximately half of the total volume of the resonator. This effect is contrary to the theoretical dependence of frequency on open volume. The most likely explanation is that a correction is needed in the theory, as the simplest case no longer holds.
UNQUOTE

Life keeps changing on us ...

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24 Sep 10 - 05:11 AM (#2992768)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray

All very well, Foolestroupe - but it gets us no closer to what your flute technique might be, or how it actually sounds.

Very curiously yours, S O'P

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24 Sep 10 - 05:18 AM (#2992775)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: Jack Campin

I suppose you as an expert are to trying tell me that Ocarinas produce NO PARTIALS, ie produce ONLY SINUSOIDAL WAVEFORMS?

As far as I can tell, yes. You get some sort of transient at the start of a note and otherwise all ocarinas sound the same. You can't control the tone colour of sustained notes.

Or maybe you can do it externally, by varying the mouth cavity. That will weakly couple to the instrument, since the mouth acts like a Helmholtz resonator itself (it has an audible effect with the recorder). I haven't consciously tried it. The problem with that sort of trick is that the player hears much more of it than the audience so you can't know directly what effect you're having. The main problem in playing an ocarina is keeping in tune by controlling breath pressure - you don't want to compromise that by messing about with embouchure.

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24 Sep 10 - 09:43 AM (#2992858)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: John P

Bored now.

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24 Sep 10 - 08:16 PM (#2993229)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: The Fooles Troupe

Me too...

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24 Sep 10 - 08:51 PM (#2993239)
Subject: RE: yes, a flute with no fingerholes
From: The Fooles Troupe

"Or maybe you can do it externally, by varying the mouth cavity. That will weakly couple to the instrument, since the mouth acts like a Helmholtz resonator itself (it has an audible effect with the recorder)"

mmm, a bit of a change of stance now from your previous

"I can't imagine why you would want to invoke Helmholtz resonators as components of a flute."

:-)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"controlling breath pressure - you don't want to compromise that by messing about with embouchure. "

Yep, that's just something that people who play embouchure flutes have to do all the time to 'blow the notes in' (called 'lipping in' and 'lipping out') ....

The thing that amazes me most about all physical musical instruments is just how 'messy' they are, how much effort in construction and performance technique has to be employed to 'control' them ('wolf tones', etc). real world things do not care about mankind's efforts to think up nice simple uncomplicated theories of how they work - they just do what they damn well please! It is the player that is 'doing magic', imposing their will on a chaotic universe ...
:-0

The only 'musical instruments' that are in contrast 'simple and clean and totally predictable' are the electronically generated instruments that use a master oscillator and fixed 2:1 gated dividers to produce the sub octaves - there is even a dedicated chip to produce within a few cents a full octave of root 12 tempered notes.

If you have ever played a real pipe organ with those hundreds, even thousands of pipes, some of them 16/32 or even 64 foot long, then you do feel that these 'generated instruments' are somewhat 'sterile' and fixed ...

Robin - multi-instrumentalist and once trained when young many years ago in orchestral conducting and arranging (which means that you must understand how each instrument works, what it can do, what it can't, its pitch and volume and timbre range, how they work together, etc) ...

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