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07 Oct 10 - 11:06 AM (#3001716) Subject: Travelodge trying to close music venue From: mandotim The Travelodge chain of budget hotels recently built one of their cheap, thin-walled hotels in the town centre of Newcastle-under-Lyme, England. They built it next to the Old Brown Jug, a 200 year-old pub with a very long tradition of being the best live music venue in the area. They have had one complaint from a guest who said they couldn't get to sleep because of the noise from the venue, and have applied to the local Town Council to have the pub's music licence revoked (rather than provide proper soundproofing for their guests. This is a classic example of an incoming corporate giant trying to interfere with local life; and the Council is showing signs of wavering. A facebook group has gained over 2000 members in 3 days; I'm asking for help. If Mudcatters who are on Facebook as well put this group on their wall, there is a chance that this protest will 'go viral' and prove a significant thorn in the side of this (apparently) anti-music organisation. We've already lost one really good music venue in the area to Weatherspoons (the Wheatsheaf in Stoke), and don't want to lose another. The link to the Facebook page is here. Please help if you can. Tim from the Slippery Hill Boys |
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07 Oct 10 - 11:16 AM (#3001723) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: theleveller Bastards - may they suffer from terminal insomnia. |
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07 Oct 10 - 11:33 AM (#3001737) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: greg stephens Please assist with this campaign in any way possible. I think we have got Travelodge on the run, the local press is solidly on our side, local residents seem unanimous, I can't see the council going against that much support. But as many as possible joiners-up on Facebook etc would be great. Let these giants know that there is opposition to their nefarious ways! I write as someone who has played gigs on and off for years at the Old Brown Jug. It is a serious part of the cultural life of the area(N Staff, ie Newcastle-under-Lyme plus Stoke-on-Trent etc). Whereas Travelodge has built a bloody great monstrosity of a hotel and suddenly thinks it owns the place. |
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07 Oct 10 - 12:53 PM (#3001807) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: The Sandman I had the misfortune to have to sleep in a travelodge after a gig at CHESHAM, they are vastly overpriced crap.so i will sign |
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07 Oct 10 - 12:58 PM (#3001813) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: VirginiaTam done... Going to search for review sites where I can have a good old whinge about that travelodge |
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07 Oct 10 - 02:25 PM (#3001890) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: Bonzo3legs I would imagine they charge the equivalent cost of a 5 star hotel in Spain!! |
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07 Oct 10 - 03:20 PM (#3001941) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: The Sandman dont know, but travelodge are crap, in spain you get good cheap food |
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07 Oct 10 - 03:25 PM (#3001946) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: Dave MacKenzie I do sleep in them but I always eat (and drink) elsewhere. Bet the person who complained was on one of there £9 a night deals. |
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07 Oct 10 - 04:11 PM (#3001983) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: GUEST,leeneia What are they going to do if people in the pub laugh loudly or cheer for a goal on the TV? Outlaw laughter and soccer? |
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07 Oct 10 - 04:49 PM (#3002017) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: mandotim The crazy part is that the hotel is also on a busy major road, with lorries thundering past all night! I wonder if they've spoken to Eddie Stobart about re-routing? Thanks for all the help folks, keep it coming. As Greg says, we may just have them on the run! Tim from the Slippery Hill Boys. |
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08 Oct 10 - 04:17 AM (#3002281) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: GUEST,OldNicKilby The Ampersand Folk Club got kicked out of a venue, The New Plough in Hinckley, because we disturbed the "Aromatherapy B and B guests" who were taking their exams the following day. Never did think much of aromatherapy |
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08 Oct 10 - 04:23 AM (#3002283) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: GUEST,Gadaffi Is this the same Travelodge company that usually sites their 'hotels' next to busy trunk roads or motorways, whose co-residents party until lord knows what hour, are either too hot or too cold, and don't start me off about the showers. Good night's sleep? The memsahib loves them becuase they're so cheap! Hhmmm! |
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08 Oct 10 - 05:06 AM (#3002306) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: GUEST,No Amps Pull out the amplifiers and go traditional. Put batting on the pub walls. Stop the music at 10:00 Just don't run around and act like turnip thumps. Silly Brits. |
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08 Oct 10 - 05:15 AM (#3002309) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: GUEST Aromatherapy stinks mate. I use these hotels, but only when I get a cheap deal offer. [I am Scottish you know!] Still I disapprove of their trying to close down a good music venue, so I shall join up. |
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08 Oct 10 - 05:34 AM (#3002316) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: John MacKenzie Oops, don't you just hate it when you run a file cleaner, and PC reorganiser, and it wipes your log-ons? That was me above. |
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08 Oct 10 - 05:53 AM (#3002324) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: GUEST,No Amp Within a Pub Crawl distance in Newcastle-under-Lyme you have a plethora to pubs. Have you considered reading a good book? Be thinks my lady protesteth too much. The council would be adviced to review the pub contracts. Put a Salvation Army right in the center. The White Star The Red Lion Millers The Black Horse Grove House Hamilton's Basement Vistoria Massons The Criketer Arms Oxford Arms The Albion Bedd Bar Plough Inn Oneills Irish Bar The Potters Wheel The Ulstan The Brittania Inn The Railway Inn The Pack Inn White Swan Travellers Rest West End Inn The Hunsman Buls Head The Saggermaker Bottom Knocker Leopard Stroke on Kent Hean and Hell Yr Olde Smithy The Queens Head West End Inn The American Club House Park Inn The Red Lion Green Star The Moorland Inn Burslem Kings Head The Ford Horn and Trumpet Miners Arms Virgin First Class Lounge Timfords Trades The Sneyd Arms Cross Guns Holly Bush The Northwood Inn Birches Head Fox and Ducks Coachmakers Arms The Reardon Albion Satchmos Bars Bluch Cabaret Nightclub No 3 Queens Arms Trinitys Wine Bar Flackett's Bar Opal Lounge Aruba Reflex Chatterleys Junpin Jaks Unicorn Inn Chilled Hanhattan Wine Bar Victoria on the Square The Smithfield Rising Sun The Three Tuns The Club The Old Iron Cot Shoulder of Mutton Bird in the Hand The Plough Inn Cricketeers Arms Basement White Horse Bulls Head Lakota The Famous Lion Leopard Stoke On Trent Trentham Village Toby Carvery Trnham Lakes Sugar Mill The Castle Tavern Hogs Head Old Brown Jug The Full Moon Yate's The Old Bulls Head Greyhound Alma Inn Musemen The Polite Vicar The Crown Inn The Roebuck The Bush Inn Bell Ringer Botteslow Arms Autow Bar |
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08 Oct 10 - 06:24 AM (#3002339) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: GUEST,The Shambles This sad case should not be seen in isolation. It is listed along with many others in the following thread. thread.cfm?threadid=126147&messages=708&page=1&desc=yes |
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08 Oct 10 - 07:37 AM (#3002367) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: Richard Bridge FFS - it advertises DJs in the garden. How is it not going to be a nuisance? |
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08 Oct 10 - 07:41 AM (#3002371) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: Richard Bridge From another website: - "DURING a conversation with my very elderly mother-in-law, of Stanier Street, about Travelodge's complaints of noise pollution against The Old Brown Jug (Sentinel, September 28) she brought to my attention that she could hear the noise at nights. It happens two or three nights a week, with jazz and drumming affecting her sleep. She even had to turn the TV sound up before bedtime. So, in that case, I support Travelodge. I'm sure there is a law about the decibel limits of sound. There are some elderly people in Stanier Street who dare not complain." |
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08 Oct 10 - 07:47 AM (#3002376) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: jacqui.c It would appear that it was not a nuisance until Travelodge moved in next door, Richard. If the pub was already advertising DJs in the garden, surely that should have put Travelodge on notice that this would not be a quiet enough location for some of their more sensitive guests. Pubs have a tendency to be noisy, whether from loud music, noisy televisions or just very rowdy customers. This pub was there first - Travelodge should have been aware of the problem and either not have moved there or should have ensured that they built to allow for the existing conditions. |
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08 Oct 10 - 07:48 AM (#3002379) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: GUEST,Silas Well, if you will live next to a pub... |
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08 Oct 10 - 09:25 AM (#3002426) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: Richard Bridge You appear to have no knowledge of the English law of nuisance. Also you don't appear to have read the other local views - old people who lived there from long before modern amplification evolved. I'm not going to go there, but the information readily capable of being found in the internet about this pub screams "Noisy, thanks to big amplifiers, until midnight or later" |
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08 Oct 10 - 09:26 AM (#3002429) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: mandotim There are legal limits for nuisance laws; not always enforced, but it is a Db limit at the perimeter of the premises. The Brown Jug complies with these (I've measured it myself), and is not in an area described as residential; it's in the town centre shopping and commercial district. There are residents, but no-one has ever complained about the noise to the pub or the council before Travelodge moved in. There is noise, of course; but Travelodge knew this before they built the hotel. Guest noAmps; well done for showing us you can cut and paste from pub listings sites. I trust your comments were ironic? Your spelling certainly was. |
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08 Oct 10 - 09:43 AM (#3002441) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: GUEST,Silas Hi Richard Whilst certainly not being an advocate of loud music or any form of noise nuisance, pubs have had amplified music since the fifties in the form of juke boxes. In the eighties I used to work behind the bar of a working mens club - we had loads of complaints about the loud music, with some good reason, and the music licene was amended to stop it. The complaints were then about noisy guests leaving the club, bangng car doors and sounding their horns. Living next to a pub is not a good idea unless you are prepared to put up with it. |
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08 Oct 10 - 10:09 AM (#3002462) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: GUEST I stayed at a hotel right next to Liverpool AIrport and never heard a plane because the hotel (being next to an airport) had decent soundproofing. This could have been built into the Travelodge just as easily - but of course that would have cost money. Much easier to complain. |
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08 Oct 10 - 11:11 AM (#3002518) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: Nigel Parsons Whilst not willing to go head-to-head with Richard Bridge (who is more knowledgeable than I on UK law) I would point out that there is an assumption that one cannot complain about a pre-existing nuisance. If the pub was already playing loud music when the hotel chain bought the property, then their (or their agents/solicitors) investigations should have made this known. Much as someone moving to a rural area cannot complain about being awakened by roosters who have been crowing in the vicinity long before their arrival. |
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08 Oct 10 - 11:20 AM (#3002527) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: Santa You won't win with that one. There are plenty of examples of people moving next to an airport and then complaining about the noise. Not just Heathrow and the like, but small local flying clubs have been affected this way. I don't store such information, so you'll have to take it on trust, but airfields have been closed down by incomers' complaints. Whilst having no great sympathy for TravelLodge, any music venue that relies on loud amplification should be clamped down upon. Not only does it annoy neighbours, it does long term harm to the hearing of the attendees. Maybe it serves them right..... but it isn't a good idea. |
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08 Oct 10 - 11:25 AM (#3002532) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: greg stephens Richard Bridge may know a lot about English law, but his knowledge on the local complainers about the Old Brown Jug seems to be derived from one letter to the Sentinel. Which letter, incidentally, sheds no light whatever on how long the residents have lived in Stanier St, so I do not know why he asserts that they have lived there long before modern amplification existed. There have extraordinarily large numbers of letters in the Sentinel supposting the pub, by the way, and only one against. Personally, I hate noisy music in pubs. I also love the Old Brown Jug. I dont go there on noisy nights! If anyone would like some practical knowledge of this situation, so they can judge from their own experience, come to the Old Brown Jug on the afternoon of Dec 19, when I will be playing there with the Boat Band.I hope it won't be too noisy, and guests at the Travelodge are welcome to come. |
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08 Oct 10 - 11:27 AM (#3002535) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: Rafflesbear Looking at the facebook photo of the music fans in the Old Brown Jug, who is surprised that they have had no complaints from Little Old Ladies? I have stayed at Travelodge many times when following my son's band and found them clean, cheap and convenient. I would imagine that many bands and followers have done the same. However if I were persuaded of the justification of this cause I would use that fact to advantage and contact Travelodge via their website, perhaps quoting an old invoice number as proof of being a customer and let them know that perhaps some of their customers at Newcastle had in fact travelled there simply to perform or watch a band in the Old Brown Jug as well as thousands of other music venues across the country. There is more than one way, you do not have to just slag them off. |
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08 Oct 10 - 11:29 AM (#3002538) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: Rafflesbear I'll make it easy for you contact Travelodge |
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08 Oct 10 - 11:56 AM (#3002558) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: mandotim Many people have already contacted Travelodge via their various websites and addresses. The reply is invariably a very polite brush-off. I'm not slagging off Travelodge, I've used them myself in extremis. The problem as I see it is that they seem to think they can turn up in the town and immediately start dictating how things should be run to suit their own purposes. They could have avoided this problem with proper research in advance of the build and taking measures to soundproof the building in reponse to that research. I suspect it was a financial decision not to soundproof the rooms properly; we know they could have done it, as they do in airport hotels all over the world. That makes me think that there wasa planning decision somewhere that said 'skimp on the soundproofing, we can always pressurise the council into shutting down the pub'. Incidentally, that's what this means; if the Jug loses the music fans, there is no ready-made clientele to replace them. Newcastle town centre isn't a busy place as a rule, and pubs are closing regularly. The Jug would follow this depressing trend, and another outlet for cultural events would be lost. This is by no means the average 'rock pub' venue; the range of events held there is very wide, and includes acoustic music, open mike nights, trad jazz, blues, bluegrass, cajun and yes, even folk music from time to time. Tim from the Slippery Hill Boys |
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08 Oct 10 - 12:32 PM (#3002591) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: Rafflesbear Far be it for me to tell you how to run a campaign, I've never run one, but my sympathy for the cause diminished when I saw the photo - who is that aimed at, the councillors, the MP or the Little Old Ladies in Stanier Street? All it said to me was, "maybe this IS a nuisance pub after all" although I appreciate that the message it sends to core supporters might be different, ie "come here and have a jolly good time" Sometimes you have to bend with the wind to avoid getting broken |
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08 Oct 10 - 12:37 PM (#3002596) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: GUEST,No Amp In the case of making it "EZ for U" Here is the address to register a complaint to the city. I my letter I refereced the Mudcat Link, the list of pubs, and suggested that they might consider it an item of business under "Community Safety" and "Alcholism" - they already have the committee. |
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08 Oct 10 - 08:56 PM (#3002960) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: GUEST,The Shambles Long may we all be able to complain about anything that we feel we need to and in the hope that those who judge the validity of those complaints will do so fairly. The stage that we have seem to have entered is a dangerous one. It is where the small number of people who will always complain about and feel they have every right to deny the pleasures of others are being encouraged to do what they do best and companies like Travelodge are exploiting the situation. This is done under Planning, Licensing and Environmental legislation and the balance has long ago been lost and the chances of a licensable activity surviving untouched by all three of the above, are becoming increasingly unlikely. One reason is that those employed to deal with these complaints seem to think that their main job is to reduce the number of complaints. This approach is having the inevitable result, not of reducing the number of complaints but of increasing them. The validity of them and the effect of the way complaints are addressed is far more important. The Licensing Act for example refers to Representations not to complaints. In theory these representations refer equally to those supporting the activity as well as those not supporting them. But old habits die hard. But valid Representations can only be made by what the Act refers to as Interested Parties. A complaint from a resident living close to a pub would be judged as valid (even if they never enter), but (as I know from personal experience) support for the activity from a regular customer would not be judged to be an Interested Party. The Home Office are proposing a change to this where everyone and their cat can complain, regardless of where they live. If and when this does come in, it should also mean that supporting Representations can be made by everyone and their cat. Something we will have to exploit to the full. |
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08 Oct 10 - 09:05 PM (#3002963) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: GUEST,The Shambles http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/consultations/cons-2010-licensing-act/alcohol-consultation?view=Binary 5.08. The Licensing Act 2003 allows local residents to raise concerns regarding new licence applications or existing licensed premises. Local residents are classified as interested parties within the Act, and as such are able to make relevant representations to licensing authorities about the impact of licensed premises on the promotion of the licensing objectives in their area. Relevant representations are considered in the determination of new licence applications and may lead to reviews of existing licences. To reduce any uncertainty amongst residents as to whether or not they are in the vicinity of a premises – and therefore whether they are an interested party – the legislation will be amended to remove the requirement to show vicinity. This means that any person, body or business will be able to make a relevant representation on any premises, regardless of their geographic proximity. |
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09 Oct 10 - 02:15 AM (#3003035) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: Richard Bridge http://www.lawteacher.net/tort-law/lecture-notes/nuisance-lecture.php I should clarify one point about Sturges -v- Bridgman. The defence of prescription failed because the nuisance began only on the commencement of the use of the new consulting room. So if writers above are correct that residents of Stainer Street were NOT disturbed until recently then there has been no prescription. Further, the nuisance insofar as affecting the land on which the Travelodge is built will only have become prescribed if for over 20 years there have been persons with an interest in that land who have been disturbed by the nuisance constituted by the Brown Jug. The repeated statement above that incomers to a nuisance cannot complain of it is simply wrong. |
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09 Oct 10 - 05:20 AM (#3003076) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: GUEST,The Shambles Again the issue is not whether it is legal or not to make a complaint - the important thing must be that the validity of any complaint can be determined fairly. Where it is clear that those who are complaining were aware of the nature of what they are now conplaining about when they moved - this should be a factor and I think that most of us would think it unfair if this were not to be a factor in fairly determining that complaint. Perhaps it is a failing of the planning process when this sort of situation happens? If or when the Home Office proposal becomes law, Travelodge will be able to make Representations to every application or variation to every other venue. Equally that means that everyone will be able to make Representations abour every Travelodge. The main danger is that groups who would like to ban all alcohol will also be able to do this to every outlet and venue. |
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14 Oct 10 - 02:58 AM (#3006616) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: GUEST,The Shambles Mass support for pub over clash with Travelodge 14 October, 2010 By James Wilmore Popular Staffordshire music pub faces threat of licence review over noise complaints Nearly 3,000 people have thrown their support behind a popular music pub threatened with a licence review after noise complaints from a newly-opened Travelodge hotel. http://www.thepublican.com/story.asp?sectioncode=7&storycode=68168&c=1 |
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15 Oct 10 - 02:24 AM (#3007521) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: Seamus Kennedy Roger Gall! Great to see you here again. Can you PM me, or is that verboten? |
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11 Nov 10 - 02:51 AM (#3029024) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: GUEST,The Shambles Hi Shamus - I'm only a guest now so PMs are not possible. But Joe Offer could supply you with my Email address. Trust you are well and (touch wood) I have not fallen down any more Irish stairs recently. http://www.thisisstaffordshire.co.uk/news/time-pub-noise-row/article-2860566-detail/article.html The Travelodge -v- The Brown Jug saga. A DISPUTE between a pub and a hotel over live music will not be resolved until February. Hotel giant Travelodge had asked Newcastle Borough Council's licensing sub-committee to review the Old Brown Jug's licence after it claimed noise from the Newcastle pub was stopping its guests getting to sleep. Travelodge made the complaint just three weeks after it opened its £3 million 82-bedroom hotel on the Georgia Pacific site in June. But a licensing meeting yesterday heard Travelodge had asked for the matter to be adjourned to give it more time to collect information. |
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11 Nov 10 - 04:34 AM (#3029080) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: mandotim Hi all; the latest on this saga can be seen on the facebook site linked above, but the gist of it is; travelodge realised they hadn't really made a case for the Jug to cease and desist, so they backed off and asked for more sound measurements to be carried out. (Amazingly, they hadn't bothered to do this before raising their objection to the licence terms, which shows how flawed the legislation is here. You don't even have to have evidence of excessive noise before you complain!) I happen to know the Jug does not exceed 'nuisance' levels. I've run sound for our band there, and the old pub walls do a very good job of attenuation. What may be at risk is the summer DJ gigs in the pub garden, but how they are going to measure that in winter I'm not sure. Well over 3000 people on the facebook site now, and a petition in the pub going great guns as well. Thanks to the many 'catters who have given their support, it's much appreciated. If anyone else would like to support, please go here . |
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11 Nov 10 - 05:30 AM (#3029123) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: GUEST,The Shambles This facebook site on the wider issue could do with your support also. http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=141223114767&ref=mf |
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11 Nov 10 - 07:19 AM (#3029182) Subject: RE: Travelodge trying to close music venue (UK) From: GUEST,Desi C Big Business Bullies is all they are. onsider the Circle Folk club Coseley West Midlands firmly on your side. I shall feature this in our rgular newsletters, and the Facebook site link. bad enough that Pub Culture is dying, the last real piece of British Culture, but lay off our music. I will also write to travelodge warning them I will be seeking a blacklisting of their hotels if they don't back down. Hit them in the pocket it's the only thing firms like this care about. All Mudcatters should join in this. good luck |