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14 Oct 10 - 07:54 AM (#3006743) Subject: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Tug the Cox Yesterday was margaret Thatcher's 85th Birthday. I hope she was watching TV to see miners celebrating, supported by a whole nation....and scousers coming out of court happy. |
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14 Oct 10 - 07:58 AM (#3006746) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: theleveller Bloody Thatcher! |
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14 Oct 10 - 08:13 AM (#3006757) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Tug the Cox One of the hardest ever people to forgive. |
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14 Oct 10 - 08:44 AM (#3006788) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Dave Hanson Tory. Dave H |
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14 Oct 10 - 09:19 AM (#3006803) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Greg F. With luck, it may be her last. |
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14 Oct 10 - 12:44 PM (#3006922) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: VirginiaTam well she is not going to her birthdy celebration tonight due to flu... you may get your wish. |
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14 Oct 10 - 01:39 PM (#3006951) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie As an ex miner caught up in '84... I have two bottles of cheap plonk, not decent Krug, (I have that also as my responsible adult likes it.) I call one of the bottles Margaret and the other Arthur. It may be cheap plonk, but it will taste sweeter than Bollinger when I get to open either. (I have two to allow for the coincidence of needing to open them on the same day.) Yes, I actually shock myself with my plans, as they are not in character at all. But I remain unrepentant. |
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14 Oct 10 - 03:32 PM (#3007049) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Bonzo3legs If it hadn't been for her fucking friend pinochet, Victor Jara would be here to write songs about the rescued miners. |
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14 Oct 10 - 06:45 PM (#3007174) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Richard Bridge But Bonzo, I thought you liked fascists. I hope she lives long - so that she can be a long time dying, in pain. Scargill, on the other hand, was an underappreciated hero who was alas outmanoeuvred by the bitch. |
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14 Oct 10 - 07:52 PM (#3007264) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Kampervan The real issue is not what Maggie Thatcher was or did; she was at least true to her beliefs. The tragedy is that, recently, the left could not find a decent leader who was true to our principles. The closest we came was John Smith and even he was never really tested. The others have all sold out for power and personal wealth. We should criticise ourselves rather than wasting such base, vicious emotion on another human being. Hate lessens us more than it harms the recipient. |
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14 Oct 10 - 07:58 PM (#3007268) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Dave MacKenzie "she was at least true to her beliefs" Was Hitler true to his beliefs? Stalin? |
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14 Oct 10 - 08:02 PM (#3007275) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Kampervan Unlike them, she managed to get herself democratically elected three times. WE voted for her. Not you, I know, if you ask them no-one actually voted for her; but she still got herself elected. Don't blame her, blame the opposition. |
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14 Oct 10 - 08:33 PM (#3007320) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Tug the Cox Her beliefs were awful....her redeeming feature was that you knew exactly where you stood and what to expect. Politicians nowadays would sell their birthrighr for a mess of potage....or a few votes.....or a few points in a popularity contest.....or..... |
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14 Oct 10 - 10:52 PM (#3007427) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: catspaw49 You all may not be aware of this but Conrad Bladey, #1 Peasant, is developing a new tradition where a 45 pound turkey is roasted in an open pit on Guy Fawkes Night and then this tough bird is eaten by Conrad symbolizing his admiration for her as he eats out her ass. That makes no sense unless you'rte following another thread.....preferably at a distance. Spaw |
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15 Oct 10 - 02:25 AM (#3007522) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: akenaton I think you are all mad.....You live, and as far as I can see, want to live in a Capitalist system, Thatcher was oneof the great Capitalist leaders, her "right to buy" was a masterstroke, she knew we were becoming uncompetetive globally in heavy industry and did what had to be done from a Capitalist viewpoint. When the Blair "liberals" took over, we got an illegal war and a financial meltdown, the outcome of which will cause more suffering amongst the poor than Thatcher ever did. The seeds of that meltdown were of course germinated in the Thatcher years, but New Labour embraced capitalism with all their strengh. Question the system, rather than pile hate on an old woman who believed in what she was doing To equate Thatcher and Scargill shows a marked lack of political understanding. |
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15 Oct 10 - 03:09 AM (#3007533) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Richard Bridge No, she did what she wanted to do to make the rich richer and the poor both poorer and more controlled. She also committed mass murder (the Belgrano) and took the UK to open (if undeclared) war (Falklands) for electioneering purposes - although she was of course wholly right to deny Argentinian claims to the Falklands (as B.Liar was right to condemn the Butcher of Bagdad, the difference between the proper opposition and the unlawful war being the beginning of acts of war). The right to buy was a gerrymander as bad as (and bigger than) Porter's electoral swindle (and theft of council money) in Westminster. You are right that the seeds of the banking meltdown came from the Thatcher years (too many overlook that) and indeed that B. Liar and the willowy Mandelbaum were happy to grab money for themselves by capitalist means, but not all Labour politicians were quite so tarred with the same brush. |
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15 Oct 10 - 03:41 AM (#3007541) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: theleveller Looks like the Condems are trying to out-Thatcher Thatcher in their rush to divdie society into the "haves" and "have-nots". Bloody Cameron. Bloody Clegg. Bloody Thatcher! |
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15 Oct 10 - 03:55 AM (#3007549) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish "Bloody Cameron. Bloody Clegg. Bloody Thatcher!"<<<<< Bloody Blair. Bloody Brown. Bloody Hypocrisy of those who only condemn those not in 'their team' Blair took us into TWO 'invasions' where we had no right to be. Brown continued that and was responsible for losing the pensions of thousands of people (oh so conveniently forgotten) I give not a shit for 'teams'...If the Leader is a person in whom I put my trust, then I expect them to change things for the better.. So far, not one who has been given my trust has done that... I no longer know where The Good Men And True went, but sure as hell they didn't go into Politics. I also get soooo tired of folks in this country blaming a leader from over 20 years back for all the present ills...New Labour stank as much as Thatcher did and they are responsible for a great deal of the financial shite we're now in, along with the Controlled Life that we are living. In my eyes, all are as bad as each other, because none of them have the guts to make a stand and make it right. Everyone's so intent on fighting the different 'teams', scoring as many points as they can against each other, rather than saying "We are all in this deep shite together now. We all have to pull together and have only ONE team, working for everyone." |
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15 Oct 10 - 04:56 AM (#3007572) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: theleveller "Bloody Hypocrisy of those who only condemn those not in 'their team'" Not sure what you're getting at here, Lizzie. My "team", as you so naively put it, is the Green Party - has been for years. A party that works hard for a change in outlook and approach to the world. The hypocrites, in my opinion, are those who sit on the sidelines moaning and wailing about what a horrid world it is but don't join in with others to actually try to DO something about it. I'm just soooo sad that you're soooo tired of people blaming Thatcher - you poor love. But if you had been living in the Yorkshire coalfields in the 80s and seen what bloody Thatcher did to both the coal and steel industries in the north and what a legacy of deprivation it has left to this day it might not be such a yawn for you. So I'll say it again: Bloody Thatcher - may you rot in hell. |
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15 Oct 10 - 05:53 AM (#3007589) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: GUEST,Shimrod Hate Labour, loathe the Tories! |
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15 Oct 10 - 06:03 AM (#3007594) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: John MacKenzie Pity to start a thread with the express purpose of the vilification' of a sick old lady. To glorify in the pain or death of another individual, is not the mark of a civilised, or reasonable person. |
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15 Oct 10 - 07:07 AM (#3007635) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Richard Bridge But it is justice. Just part of what she deserves. |
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15 Oct 10 - 07:20 AM (#3007650) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: John MacKenzie If we all got what we deserved, maybe we wouldn't be so keen on the idea Richard :) |
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15 Oct 10 - 07:42 AM (#3007660) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: bubblyrat I really can't understand a member of the Green Party condemning coal-mine closures ! Coal is one of the most UN-green substances on the planet,and is wholly to blame for the polluted atmosphere in Poland,China,etc, where it is still a prime energy source.Do the Green Party want that here ?? Coal-fired power stations? Steam trains ?? A coal fire in every house in the land ?? Some of us are old enough to remember when it was,indeed,like that,and on a smoggy day in London or along the Thames Valley it was no joke !! Anyway,Maggie Thatcher didn't close the pits or steelworks all by herself ; she had more than enough help from Bolshy,uncompromising,arrogant,pissed-with-power trade union leaders ,who at this very moment are flexing their muscles over the London Fire Brigade fiasco !! If it wasn't for the likes of them,we'd still HAVE steel-making & ship-building in this country ! |
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15 Oct 10 - 08:15 AM (#3007687) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Backwoodsman Margaret Thatcher was desperate to go down in history with the reputation of being the person who emasculated the Trades Unions, and she wanted to do that so that her rich and powerful mates (and, presumably, her rich and powerful businessman husband)could have everything their own way. So she carefully picked the NUM, who were perhaps the most powerful union at that time and who had foolishly elected a gormless numpty Commie as their leader, and she manoeuvred them into a fight that anyone with a minimum of two working brain-cells who wasn't an NUM-member could see they couldn't possibly win. Not only could they not win, but also their strike provided Maggie with the excuse she needed to destroy their industry and their livelihoods by closing the pits. She was a genius. She was also a bitch and a betrayer of her class (which is working-class - having a corner-shop, and getting into the sack with a millionaire, doesn't make anyone an aristocrat, even if they then marry the millionaire). It's a shame she didn't remember that she represented the whole of the people of the UK, and turn her genius to benefitting the majority, not just a minority whom she adored because they happened to have plenty of money. IMHO. |
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15 Oct 10 - 08:59 AM (#3007718) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Zen I never liked Margaret Thatcher and loathed her politics. But some of the vile comments here are simply uncalled for IMHO. |
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15 Oct 10 - 09:02 AM (#3007719) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Greg F. To glorify in the pain or death of another individual, is not the mark of a civilised, or reasonable person. Well, Old Maggie glorified in the pain and death she inflicted on countless thousands of people, or was at least indifferent to it, which perhaps is worse. |
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15 Oct 10 - 09:13 AM (#3007726) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker "Thatcher was oneof the great Capitalist leaders, her "right to buy" was a masterstroke" .. oh yes, definitely that alright.. the tories give hard working better off 'respectable working class' council estate residents the oportunity to buy their state provided homes; and the freedom to express their individuality by painting their newly owned front doors in colours of their own choice.. and at the same time create economic conditions under which the factories that these new home owners depend on for their mortgages are then permanently closed down... yeah right, f@cking 'masterstroke'.. pure evil genius.. .. couldn't have planned it better that these previously state owned propertiess could then be cheaply aquired in mass at reposession auctions by Thatchers rapacious profiteering banking & property developer cronies... After the sudden closure of our local factory, the single most important employer in town, that our council estate community existed to support, my dad's redundancy after nearly 30 years loyal service at that factory just about destroyed him and my family.. btw.. Happy Birthday maggie you poor frail dear.. try not to get too much drool on your cardigan when nursey spoonfeeds you some nicely mashed soft cake... lucky you can afford the best private health care money can buy... my old mum doesn't expect to be able to enjoy such security and comfort. |
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15 Oct 10 - 09:18 AM (#3007728) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Bainbo Although it was obviously a disappointment that she couldn't be at her own party, I see the day was saved when the Governor of California, Arnold Schwarzeneger, popped in instead (true!) No one noticed the difference. |
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15 Oct 10 - 11:01 AM (#3007791) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Tug the Cox Pity to start a thread with the express purpose of the vilification' of a sick old lady. John, if you look at the OP, there was no vilification....just a pointing to the irony Of MT sharing her celebrations with miners and the people of Liverpool....archetypal sufferers ( Boys from the blackstuff etc) of the Thatcher years. |
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15 Oct 10 - 11:27 AM (#3007809) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: John MacKenzie And of course nobody on Mudcat was EVER going to make a post wishing her harm on such a thread, were they? |
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15 Oct 10 - 11:59 AM (#3007838) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: GUEST,cujimmy There are many people around the country who never recovered from her actions, many communities and people were left to rot, despair, drug problems and depression took the place of pride, self esteem and close communities. What she did is unforgiveble for many of us i'm afraid. |
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15 Oct 10 - 05:18 PM (#3008018) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Rog Peek I've always thought Ewan McColl's take on Thatcher was priceless: The Grocer (Ewan McColl) Come all you argumentative sods who like to chew the rag Who'll sit in a bar for hours on end and a beering drinking Jack Sit down and park your feet a while and give your mouth a rest And I'll tell you about a Dame they called the guardian of the West Her hair was the best that money could buy her eyes were china blue I swear they wouldn't've looked out of place on a frozen Cockatoo She'd a nose like the blade of a metal saw and a voice like a tungsten drill And she used it to bore the natives when she'd a couple of hours to kill When she was a puking babe in arms she read in a magazine About the Royals and decided she would like to be the Queen But the job was already taken so she stamped her foot and said "If I can't be the Queen or the Prince of Wales I'll be the PM instead" And so she moved to NW4 to a pad in Downing Street A well kept joint where she and her group of dead-beats used to meet They'd dance around the table then they'd have a little chat And in between she'd practice her elocution on the cat The lady often said she'd've liked to have lived in the golden age Before the days of the unions or the national minimum wage She sighed when she thought of Hitler how he'd smashed them all to hell "What he can do I can do better" she said "And probably twice as well" And so she set out kill the unions one by one All except the ETU for that had already been done Teachers and civil servants workers down the mine Needed a taste of the ladies whip to make them toe the line The printers they came out on strike she went for them tooth and claw Nurses and firemen struck as well she belted them with the law They may be gallant heroes when they're saving peoples lives But they're just a bunch of layabouts when they're asking for a rise Well the lady's reputation plummeted down into the red But trouble blew up in the Falklands it was jam on her ginger bread "Thank God for a nice little war" she said "This is Britain's finest hour" So a couple of hundred squadies died so she could stay in power The day a Polish shipyard became a casualty She rushed to Les Welensa crying solidarity "Oh stay with us my dear" he said but she answered with a frown "I have to rush back to Glasgow to close a shipyard down" She doted on brave Colonel North and all that he represents And she stuck like shit to a blanket to her favourite president She was madly keen on Bushy Tail of the dear old CIA And she carried a torch for Botha and General Penishay Once behind the counter of her father's grocer shop She sold butter and jam and flour and Spam and everything else the lot But when the merchants' dice had changed old prices did apply She sold the nation off in lots to all who wanted to buy In the end, her beloved Tory party jettisoned her. After all the misery she caused, it seemed fitting that she should leave No 10 in tears. I'm sure she must have seen it as a stab in the back, and I derived some consolation from what for her must have been an ignominious exit. Ewan of couse did not live to witness her final days as PM, I hope he wouldn't mind my attempt at an addition to his song: Her days in power were numbered as the election it grew near It broke her heart to hear those words "You'll have to go my dear" I'm sure she wakes in a sweat at night and thinks she's on the rack Dreaming about those bosom pals who stabbed her in the back. Rog |
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15 Oct 10 - 05:24 PM (#3008025) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Rog Peek PS Should have read 'Pinochet'. Transcibed it phonetically, meant to look it up later. Rog |
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15 Oct 10 - 10:17 PM (#3008195) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: GUEST,Alan Whittle Ewan at his brilliant pugnacious best. He could do lyricism, but no others had his command of agitprop doggerel with passion, humour and 'no surrender' as the subtext. It was never going to win another grammy for him, but he virtually possessed the form. I don't suppose Ewans stuff passes any of the requirement of real folk music as insisted on by the experts, but damn! it was good! And I'm proud to have seen him and known he was good, and talked with him. |
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16 Oct 10 - 06:31 AM (#3008327) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: MGM·Lion This is what I wrote on a thread devoted to MacColl's The Grocer on 24 Aug 09:~ >>>Well, Ewan would have hated Thatcher with a vehemence, & as someone remarks above he wasn't the only one. But this is an ill-natured, witless song to my mind, not worthy of the considerable poet that EM at his best could be: what kind of socialism and 'Brotherhood of Man' is it to sneer at someone because her father happened to be of petit-bourgeois origin? In my review of his 'Journeyman' autobiog for the Times [16 Mar 91], I wrote that I admired his fine Radio Ballads songs and songs of men-at-work like "Champion At Keeping 'Em Rolling", 'but wouldn't give a dime a dozen for the political songs of which, he tells us, it was his aim from the sixties to the eighties to write at least ten each month'. The song which is subject of this thread strikes me as a pretty dire example of this genre.<<< I see no reason to depart from that opinion. But I don't expect much agreement from the ill-natured & malevolent posters above who relish the thought of people's ill-deaths. I hope they won't trouble to respond as I shan't open this thread again. I just find it too distressing. ~Michael~ |
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16 Oct 10 - 06:51 AM (#3008336) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: GUEST,Silas Distressing???? You shoud have been a member of the underclass in the eighties mate! |
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16 Oct 10 - 07:27 AM (#3008345) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: akenaton Mrs Thatcher WAS capitalism......why do you keep voting for her? Is it perhaps that you are not one of that disenfranchised underclass? The addicts, the homeless, the psychotic,the hopeless....that evolving capitalism produces. |
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16 Oct 10 - 07:30 AM (#3008347) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Richard Bridge Er - I didn't. |
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16 Oct 10 - 09:46 AM (#3008404) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Tug the Cox And of course nobody on Mudcat was EVER going to make a post wishing her harm on such a thread, were they? Am I my brother's keeper? |
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16 Oct 10 - 12:27 PM (#3008486) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: GUEST,Alan Whittle >>>Well, Ewan would have hated Thatcher with a vehemence, & as someone remarks above he wasn't the only one. But this is an ill-natured, witless song to my mind, not worthy of the considerable poet that EM at his best could be: what kind of socialism and 'Brotherhood of Man' is it to sneer at someone because her father happened to be of petit-bourgeois origin? In my review of his 'Journeyman' autobiog for the Times [16 Mar 91], I wrote that I admired his fine Radio Ballads songs and songs of men-at-work like "Champion At Keeping 'Em Rolling", 'but wouldn't give a dime a dozen for the political songs of which, he tells us, it was his aim from the sixties to the eighties to write at least ten each month'. The song which is subject of this thread strikes me as a pretty dire example of this genre.<<< Okay sorry I spoke. I refuse to defend my views on folk music. Thats led me to all kinds of trouble in the past on Mudcat. I know what I think of Ewan's efforts. My opinion is different to yours - lets leave it at that. |
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16 Oct 10 - 01:36 PM (#3008521) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: theleveller "I really can't understand a member of the Green Party condemning coal-mine closures ! " No? Well why doesn't that surprise me? Oh well, they say ignorance is bliss so if you can't be arsed to find out for yourself I'll leave you in your joyfully simplistic world. |
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16 Oct 10 - 03:50 PM (#3008606) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: akenaton "liberals" hate radicals more than they hate conservatives! |
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16 Oct 10 - 08:32 PM (#3008750) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Teribus Ewan McColl?? Was that his name or the name he chose to evade being branded as a deserter? And this is the man whose opinion we respect? Sorry I think not. Margaret Thatcher was the best peacetime Prime Minister that this country has seen in the twentieth century without any shadow of a doubt. Not a single policy she put in place did any sucessive goverment ever rescind and she, NOTE she build the foundation of the wealth that Blair and Brown pissed away. Hey folks when you elect a Government you elect a leader and guess what you should actually expect that leader to lead - It is not, repeat NOT a popularity contest, never was never will be. It always boils down to what needs doing must be done, no matter how painful and believe me after the last thirteen years of populist NuLiebour Government we are in for some painful medicine, you crowd voted for it now suck up the measures required. Had Maggie been at the helm none of it would have ever been required. |
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17 Oct 10 - 04:42 AM (#3008886) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: akenaton "Had Maggie been at the helm none of it would have ever been required." Sorry, I dont believe that Teribus. With the destruction of manufacturing and heavy industry,we, under a capitalist system, had to find other ways to generate growth in the economy. We could never compete with Eastern nations in these fields, as they had already discovered that they could exploit their OWN people and resources. Blair's civil rights and equality legislation made the need for growth all the more urgent, so we finally ran out of road. The credit boom was the result....as far as we are concerned it will be the last boom, we are now on the road to a facist state. Britian is becoming totalitarian. I dont think thats what Mrs Thatcher envisioned, but it would have happened whether or not she had been "at the helm" All this written from a capitalist perspective of course...Ake |
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17 Oct 10 - 05:06 AM (#3008898) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Richard Bridge Thatcher did not envision totalitarianism? Are you mad? She shut down the GLC because it was a power base for criticism of her. She revamped the entire TV franchise system to get back at Thames TV for the "Death on the Rock" programme. She loved a good gerrymander - as you would find out if it was possible to tear the truth out of her friend Porter now safely hiding behind the Israeli courts. And as for reversing her policies, we are just starting to see the light (Blair at least remained Thatcher-lite) dawning with the culling of the "internal market" in the NHS, and the beginnings of a recognition of the need to renationalise infrastructure. Within 20 years Thatcherwasm will be in the history books as as unsuccessful an experiment as abolition. Quite simply it leads all the faster to the predicted collapse of capitalism under the weight of its internal contradictions - which collapse started of course in banking and house ownership. Abolition was however well intentioned. Bossy Roberts simply wanted to hand more power to the rich and to enslave the British people. If the capitalist system continues, house and land prices must eventually rise to even higher levels - same amount of land, more and more people. That must eventually lead to another boom. |
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17 Oct 10 - 05:42 AM (#3008926) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Teribus FACT - Since the end of the Second World War every single labour government that has left office has left office with the country in an all mighty mess and penniless. Not only that but each successive time they have left office the extent of the mayhem that they have wrought is greater. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. - Winston Churchill No truer words ever spoken. |
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17 Oct 10 - 05:48 AM (#3008934) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Silas "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. - Winston Churchill No truer words ever spoken." I am sure that there are many truer words spoken than this electioneering drivel. Chrchill was many things, but a champion of the working man he was not. |
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17 Oct 10 - 05:53 AM (#3008937) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Richard Bridge Well, Teri - you probably like his verdict on the traditional values of the Navy then. Rum, sodomy, and the lash. He could have added lung cancer with the free tobacco too (paid for, of course, out of taxes). |
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17 Oct 10 - 05:53 AM (#3008938) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: John MacKenzie The coal industry destroyed itself. The steel industry was destroyed at the behest of the EEC. Isn't it nice to have someone to blame, when the cause you espouse, fucks up, yet again? |
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17 Oct 10 - 05:53 AM (#3008939) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: MGM·Lion Richard, you mistake the nature of totalitarianism. The first act of any totalitarian government is to abolish or tinker with the electoral system to ensure their continuation in office ~~ let it never be forgotten that Hitler was democratically elected before his appointment as Chancellor, but soon ensured he was never going to get unelected. Mrs Thatcher not only did no such thing; she didn't even think of it for a moment. Why? Because she was not, in any viable definition whatever, a totalitarian. So please don't palter any more with such terms. You only weaken your own arguments. ~Michael~ |
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17 Oct 10 - 06:29 AM (#3008962) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: akenaton Richard...if there is to be another boom, how do you intend to finance it? After the punishment we are about to receive(deserved in my opinion, for being so apathetic and politically ignorant), I dont believe the Caps will be able to pull the credit scam all over again. Sorry, but it's "Groundhog Day"! |
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17 Oct 10 - 06:30 AM (#3008964) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: MGM·Lion And, Richard, Churchill on the navy was rather delivering a factually descriptive epitome than a 'verdict'? So in what sense did you call it a 'verdict', pray? ~M~ |
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17 Oct 10 - 07:56 AM (#3009033) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Richard Bridge MGM, that 's exactly what she did - albeit not "first". And I think you mean "epigram" not "epitome", but it was still a judgment as to the nature of the navy. Boom? Easy. If land prices rise, those dealing in land must profit. What's more, rents must rise too, so those owning land to rent will profit. Dis-saving from the payers will increase money in circulation. It's economics 101. |
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17 Oct 10 - 08:03 AM (#3009035) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: MGM·Lion No she didn't, or she would have continued in office & still be there. It was an epitomising epigram. I know the difference between an epigram & an epitome, thanks. & when I said epitome I meant epitome. I don't think it was a 'judgment' either; merely a description. ~M~ |
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17 Oct 10 - 08:07 AM (#3009037) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: MGM·Lion === epitome - Definition of epitome at YourDictionary.com noun pl. epitomes -·mes′. a short statement of the main points of a book, report , incident, etc.; abstract; summary === For info and clarification, I was using the word in the "abstract, summary" sense, as defined above. ~Michael~ |
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17 Oct 10 - 08:26 AM (#3009048) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Stu "Margaret Thatcher was the best peacetime Prime Minister that this country has seen in the twentieth century without any shadow of a doubt." No, she wasn't. What she did was pave the way for lesser men to turn the UK from a working society to a consumer society, a country that makes things to one of services industries which, in true capitalist fashion then exported the jobs abroad. She was short-sighted, intellectually unremarkable and this probably contributed to her belligerent nature. She destroyed the country's manufacturing base and her earlier monetarist policies were deeply damaging, forcing many established and profitable small businesses into bankruptcy by keeping interest rates artificially high - a product of her fundamental misunderstanding of monetarist economics and her devotion to Freidmanesque free market idealogy. This, combined with her pathological hatred of the working class life from which her father tried so hard to transcend was responsible for so much misery in the 1980's. The fact the witless poltroons of all parties that have succeeded her in government haven't had the will to roll back her policies in any meaningful way is a damning indictment of the quality of politicians this country seems to produce these days. Her real failure though was the fact she suffered from a complete lack of insight or emotional intelligence. Like many Tories, she had an innate distrust of intellectualism (despite her university education - perhaps she had a rough time due to her working-class roots) and this meant she never really understood that the consequences of her actions in a social context. Her real crime was the damage she did to the communities and people that needed protection at that moment and she threw them to the wolves. Selling the social housing stock was one of the greatest social crimes this country has ever endured. If she hadn't gone to war with Argentina even right-wingers would look back on her poisonous legacy with the less than rose-tinted spectacles they reserve for her and her government. |
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17 Oct 10 - 09:28 AM (#3009088) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Teribus Well, Teri - you probably like his verdict on the traditional values of the Navy then. Rum, sodomy, and the lash. He could have added lung cancer with the free tobacco too (paid for, of course, out of taxes). "Traditional values"???? No Richard he was referring in a discussion defending and supporting Fisher's modernisation proposals to the "Traditions" of the Navy, not the "Traditional Values". By the bye, tobacco was never free in the RN, and for as long as "income tax" has existed the officers and men of the Royal Navy have had their contributions deducted at source. |
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17 Oct 10 - 11:32 AM (#3009144) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: akenaton Jack.....Surely you dont think our heavy industry could have remained competitive if Mrs Thatcher had not existed? You dont seem to have a clue about how global capitalism works. That is the trouble with the "liberal" left, they start to half believe their own propaganda. Unfortunately you cant have it every way, change is going to hurt not just the rich. Teribus is right, if you want to retain yopur little bag of swag, just keep voting capitalist and continue to pretend you care about the underclass. If you want your system to be run efficiently get a leader like Mrs T, who will keep it going as long as it is sustainable,(not long in our case) As far as Mrs'Ts political demise is concerned, it seemed to me to be mainly the result of a sustained campaign by the "liberal" media. With Thatcher in power and Labour in opposition, there would certainly have been no involvement in Iraq. |
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17 Oct 10 - 12:23 PM (#3009187) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: GUEST,Doc John The best 20th century peace time prime minister was without doubt Clement Atlee and his cabinet had a few heroes in it too. Thatcher's policies have never been reversed? Well for a start there's the pole tax, reversed by her own side. |
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17 Oct 10 - 12:29 PM (#3009193) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Greg F. If you want your system to be run efficiently get a leader like Mrs T... Or, perhaps, Benito Mussolini. Il Duce ran one hell of an efficient system. |
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18 Oct 10 - 04:06 AM (#3009626) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Stu "Surely you dont think our heavy industry could have remained competitive if Mrs Thatcher had not existed? You dont seem to have a clue about how global capitalism works" We'll never know if our heavy industry could have remained competitive will we? The transition from a manufacturing to a service economy, instigated by Thatcher's assault on UK manufacturing will, in my opinion go down as one of the biggest economic faux-pax ever (re-read the second sentence of my previous post). "As far as Mrs'Ts political demise is concerned, it seemed to me to be mainly the result of a sustained campaign by the "liberal" media." "liberal" media? Are we in America now? Co-opting pejorative US aphorisms is not good - liberal means something different here. Ask Margaret Thatcher - she was a liberal in the economic sense. That gave me a belly laugh - Thatcher's political demise was of her own making, an isolated and forlorn figure abandoned by her party and most of her cabinet. She went because by that point she was a political liability, and the Tories needed to play safe, hence the election to leader of the most bland and inoffensive candidate John "I can balance a peanut on my knob" Major. Was Geoffrey Howe part of this "liberal" media? |
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18 Oct 10 - 04:24 AM (#3009628) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: akenaton So you think the "liberal"/ conservative divide does not exist in the UK? Mr Blair was a wonderful example of a "liberal"....and millions voted for him. I'm proud to say, that I never did.....can you? |
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18 Oct 10 - 04:27 AM (#3009631) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Richard Bridge "Navy Tobacco Smoking was introduced on board HM Ships in about 1700, over tubs of water in the forecastle only. Tobacco was first issued in the Navy a hundred years later. The issue on repayment of leaf tobacco ceased in 1953 and tobacco is now available as "Pipe" and "Cigarette" only. The authorised monthly allowance of service tobacco which may be purchased on board is 21bs abroad and 11b at home. see BLUE: TICKLERS" So subsidised then. Don't split hairs. |
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18 Oct 10 - 04:46 AM (#3009637) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: MGM·Lion >>>The best 20th century peace time prime minister was without doubt Clement Atlee and his cabinet had a few heroes<<< Like hell. Don't get us started on that fool Stafford Cripps [sorry SIR Stafford], whose conviction that socialism must always = misery was epitomised [again!] in his concept of 'austerity' with which he carried Attlee & all his cabinet colleagues. We DIDN'T 'NEED' continuation of rationing & shortages after the war was over. It was just that this sadistic, doctrinaire fool thought they would be GOOD for us, may he rot in hell for ever; so we all had to suffer shortages & misery & discontent while the rest of Europe [incl our notionally 'conquered' enemies] were living the life or riley. That is what has made the name of 'socialism' stink in the nostrils of the British people to this day ~~ why do you think that Labour has to be 'New' these days, & that no Labour government has ever lasted more than one-&-a-bit terms? Where do you think the cliché about how we 'won the war but lost the peace' came from? Attlee! Cripps!! Vomit!!! ~Michael~ Attlee! Cripps!! Vomit!!! |
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18 Oct 10 - 05:34 AM (#3009653) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: GUEST,Patsy Happy birthday to the witch. |
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18 Oct 10 - 05:35 AM (#3009655) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: John MacKenzie Known in our house, as Sir Stiffard Crapps. |
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18 Oct 10 - 07:31 AM (#3009711) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Arthur_itus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1rJW2P2rFY&p=1CA2C28F30C7140E&playnext=1&index=48 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JKvNoZzOEw&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyDBsMi7WE8&NR=1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6-DGLsN1sA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1jY5fYjV-U&feature=related |
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18 Oct 10 - 09:42 AM (#3009783) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: GUEST,Mike Rogers My worry is that this most loathsome of women will be given a state funeral. Should that happen I will be forced to head to London and demonstrate my disdain with a suitably worded placard. |
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18 Oct 10 - 09:57 AM (#3009788) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Emma B There is a Facebbok group 'No State Funeral for Thatcher' which currently has over 14,000 supporters so you may find your protest a far from lonely one Mike :) http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=25047037153 |
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18 Oct 10 - 11:07 AM (#3009831) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Teribus Not subsidised Free of Duty - While you have read about them I used to buy them. |
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18 Oct 10 - 11:09 AM (#3009835) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Silas I don't think a state funeral is a real possibility, there would be riots on the streets. Best thing would be to cremate her and flush the ashes down the bog. |
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18 Oct 10 - 11:21 AM (#3009845) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: MGM·Lion What is it about her that makes people on this site so stinking filthy disgusting RUDE? Eh, Silas, M Rigers, et al... |
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18 Oct 10 - 11:26 AM (#3009850) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Silas Well, read the thread. I make no apologies for my attitude to the evil witch, in fact, I am having a street party on he day she snuffs it, you are all most welcome, but bring a bottle. |
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18 Oct 10 - 11:44 AM (#3009863) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Arthur_itus I agree with MtheGm. Whatever anybody thinks about the only woman who has been Prime Minister in our country, I find it disgusting what is being said about her. To those people, I hope you get the same deal to you, as you wish on her. Mudcat at it's best - vile |
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18 Oct 10 - 11:52 AM (#3009873) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Silas Arthur, we already have , back in the eighties. |
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18 Oct 10 - 12:40 PM (#3009907) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie Just noticed that Akenaton reckons that to equate Thatcher and Scargill shows a lack of political understanding. Gosh! Err.... thanks for telling me. I wouldn't have known and then may have carried on embarrassing myself. All those years I was a special advisor at Dept of Health and not knowing that if only I had spoken to a stupid right wing bigot I could have stopped interfering with things I don't understand there and then. Thanks again. A bit late, as I am still interfering with Dept of Health in small ways. Although as I am not and have never been a member of any political party, perhaps what is where I went wrong? If I had a stiffy for Thatcher like Akenaton, I too could have hated people whose lifestyle wasn't like mine, and not feel guilty about making disparaging remarks about people I know nothing about. I might also know where my stone was when I needed to crawl back under it... |
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18 Oct 10 - 12:47 PM (#3009911) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Richard Bridge I wish her what she caused others. Misery for millions. Death for thousands. I'm happy to have the same quantum valorebat principle applied to me. I don't think I've done any of that. |
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18 Oct 10 - 01:54 PM (#3009964) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Arthur_itus Quote from Richard Death for thousands Unquote Now damn, and there was me thinking that was Tony (I haven't been done for war crimes) Blair. |
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18 Oct 10 - 02:37 PM (#3010000) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Jack Campin I don't think she IS going to die. If anybody ever matched Swift's description of a Struldbrug, she's it. |
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18 Oct 10 - 05:32 PM (#3010106) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Richard Bridge So what? I'll punish my criminal, you punish yours. |
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18 Oct 10 - 05:33 PM (#3010108) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Richard Bridge He was only following in her footsteps as a poodle to the US anyway. |
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18 Oct 10 - 05:45 PM (#3010121) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: John MacKenzie Well I think that true justice, would be for you to suffer the things you wish for others. Thus those who wish good get good, while those who wish malice, suffer malice. |
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18 Oct 10 - 07:55 PM (#3010211) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: akenaton I think that's about right John. Willie ...You seem obsessed by erections, even to the extent of naming yourself after one. Or does your handle refer to your intellectual capacity? |
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18 Oct 10 - 09:25 PM (#3010259) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Richard Bridge I see brain death is alive and well. I wish her what she deserves. Your attempts to mandate fluffiness would leave a world with no system of enforcement of law or morality. Some deserve being wished well. Others deserve otherwise. |
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18 Oct 10 - 10:16 PM (#3010286) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker I'd expect Satan is nervously dreading Margaret Thatcher's imminent arrival.. He'll need eyes in the back of his head for the rest of eternity.... |
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19 Oct 10 - 02:35 AM (#3010344) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: MGM·Lion Richard never came back on the 'totalitarianism' question; so I take it he gave me best on that one. But further thought on that topic:~ You [you know who you are] are all going on as if she was working all those years without any mandate or public or popular approval; whereas the fact of the matter is that she went on being re-elected to continue the popular policies which she made no secret of her intention to continue to implement, because SHE/THEY REPRESENTED THE PUBLIC WILL. It's all very well you all going on about her iniquities; but can't you see that it is you lot patronising the nation who constantly re-elected her, wishing that she could have somehow been got rid of instead of being allowed to continue to represent the majority who had elected her ~~ which is what she was doing, or she wouldn't have got so systematically re-elected by the people: that is what "Democracy" means, isn't it?~~ can you really not see, Richard & the rest of you, that it is YOU who are demonstrating yourselves to be anti-democratic; so that it is your impulses, far more than hers, that can most appropriately be subsumed under the head of "totalitarian"? You constantly wish that the democratically expressed will of the people could have been overturned on your and Scargill's and all's say-so, because you disapproved of what whe was doing by the popular will. What could be more 'totalitarian' than that? ~Michael~ |
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19 Oct 10 - 02:54 AM (#3010349) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: GUEST,Patsy If or when the funeral is televised I will watch it, most definitely. It will be very interesting to see what the content of any reading, will her darling son be there to do it or Carole. Carole Thatcher is a person in her own right and I admire that she has come out of everything unscathed and is a pretty together lady, all things considered. |
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19 Oct 10 - 04:09 AM (#3010379) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Dave MacKenzie "the majority who had elected her " The majority of the UK electorate? Or the majority of those who believed that their vote might actually mean something? |
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19 Oct 10 - 04:17 AM (#3010382) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Keith A of Hertford Everyone knows that no individual's vote means anything. Voting is a hard won right and a civic duty. She never lost an election. That does mean something. |
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19 Oct 10 - 04:19 AM (#3010385) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie Yes Akenaton, I do have a fixation about erections. Something to do with still being able to get one I suppose... Perhaps I need to spell out the link between Thatcher and Scargill after all. (If not, I might be showing lack of political something or other..) They are (I typed "were" but Freudian slips don't change the situation,) both people with a view. Nothing wrong with that, we all have them. They both seeked office to influence and dare I say control others. Again, a calling for those who feel they have something to offer. So far, so hoopy. However, they both failed to make the leap from promoting their idealism to representing the consensus. And that is the test of anybody who wishes to lead in a democracy. Thatcher called me and my workmates "the enemy within." For that, she can rot in Hell. In later years and now, I am invited to receptions at No. 10. It is interesting to note the difference between being an enemy of the state and quoffing the Prime Minister's wine. The difference is the intellect and attitude of the Prime Minister, nothing more and nothing less. All this talk about a state funeral, has anybody checked to see if we have to wait for her to die first? I hope her tomb has a sprung dance floor, because as an ex miner, my knees aren't what they used to be. |
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19 Oct 10 - 04:24 AM (#3010389) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: MGM·Lion Not quite sure of your point, Dave. The fact is, our democracy works on a constituency-based first-past-the-post, no-compulsion-to-vote system; which we all accept except the Lib Dems, who have never contrived to get it democratically changed for all their efforts. On that system Mrs T was elected time & again to govern, tho she could have been removed from office [as eg Brown has just been] at any time. My point is simply that it is pretty cool to accuse of 'totalitarianism' someone who accepts office under the system as it obtains, & continues in her policies when re-elected repeatedly; duly accepting & agreeing to the contract that she will cease to do so if democratically defeated. It seems to me far more of a 'totalitarian' attitude to state or imply that something should have been done to remove her from the office to which she had been duly elected by the democratic system near-universally accepted; or to abuse her for persisting in the policies which she had made no secret of her intention to continue. ~M~ |
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19 Oct 10 - 05:19 AM (#3010420) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Arthur_itus Your hatred of Maggie and Steaming Erection Willy's post, reminds me of the song Graham Moore wrote. I have changed the lyrics slightly (that's folk). I don't agree with you haters, but there you go. A song sounds a good idea :-) As I dreamed out one evening By a river of discontent I bumped straight into old gal Thatcher As running down the road she went She said, "I can't stop right now, you miners, Mudcat is after me They'd have a rope around my throat And hang me on the LavaTORY" But I will dance to Thatcher's bones Dance to Thatcher's bones Dance in the oldest boots I own To the rhythm of Thatcher's bones I will dance to Thatcher's bones Dance to Thatcher's bones Dance in the oldest boots I own To the rhythm of Thatcher's bones "I only talked about the miners And shutting those pits down But since the very first word I spoke I've been looking down the barrel of a gun They say I preached revolution Let me say in my defence That all I did wherever I went Was to talk a lot of common sense" Old Maggie Thatcher she ran so fast She left Scargill standing still And there I was, a piece of paper in my hand Standing at the top of the pit It said, "This is the Age Of Reason Time to shut those pits Arthur Scargill, I don't like you I think you are a piece of sh**" Old Maggie Thatcher, there she lies Nobody laughs and nobody cries Where she's gone or how she fares Nobody knows and nobody cares But I will dance to Thatcher's bones Dance to Thatcher's bones Dance in the oldest boots I own To the rhythm of Thatcher's bones I will dance to Thatcher's bones Dance to Thatcher's bones Dance in the oldest boots I own To the rhythm of Thatcher's bones Maybe a competition for the best song lyrics for Maggie Thatcher might be a good idea. Just right for you mudcatters. Give it a go :-) |
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19 Oct 10 - 05:29 AM (#3010426) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Silas To parody a song about Tom Paine with Thatcher seems to me to be a travesty. Could not be less appropriate. |
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19 Oct 10 - 06:05 AM (#3010437) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Arthur_itus Well some of the vile comments on here are not acceptable, so I thought a little song contest might get people's grey matter working :-) This thread needs lightening up. |
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19 Oct 10 - 06:43 AM (#3010455) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Silas 'Not acceptable?' Really? Bear in mind these are just comments - words they cannot possibly compare with the obscenities of the deeds that this woman carried out. |
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19 Oct 10 - 07:21 AM (#3010484) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Arthur_itus That is of course your considered opinion Silas. I happen to think that Tony Blair has an aweful lot more to answer for (war crimes). |
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19 Oct 10 - 07:26 AM (#3010488) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Silas Well Arthur, if you want to start a thread about Tony Blairs birthday I may well make a contribution, and, as a card carrying member of the Labour Party, you know what? I may actually agree with you (well, up to a point. However, that des not diminish the dreadful acts of this woman. |
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19 Oct 10 - 07:31 AM (#3010491) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: GUEST,Peter Laban I happen to think that Tony Blair has an aweful lot more to answer for (war crimes) What was that thing with the Belgrano again? |
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19 Oct 10 - 08:01 AM (#3010508) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Arthur_itus Look quite honestly, I am neither Labour, Con or Lib Dem and vote for who I think is suitable at the time, otherwise it's a wasted vote. However, you labourites have a vengance towards anybody that is not labour and that is not healthy. You do not seem to accept that anybody else but yourselves should be in charge. My honest opinion is that George Brown fucked up good and proper and that's why labour is no longer in charge. learn to accept that labour was voted out and wait for your time again. I think it is a total waste of time talking to such deep rooted members of any party. So I will let you get on with it from now on. |
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19 Oct 10 - 09:10 AM (#3010557) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: John MacKenzie Gordon? |
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19 Oct 10 - 09:26 AM (#3010570) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Stu George Brown is innocent! |
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19 Oct 10 - 09:33 AM (#3010578) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: John MacKenzie I thought that was George Davis? |
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19 Oct 10 - 09:35 AM (#3010581) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Keith A of Hertford OK. |
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19 Oct 10 - 09:59 AM (#3010605) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Arthur_itus OOps just got back and realised what I had done. Gordon it is. Thanks for correcting me. :-) Why do I still remember silly old George. He was great for winding up :-) I seem to remember Robin Day winding him up once and spitting him out LOL |
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19 Oct 10 - 10:26 AM (#3010640) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: akenaton I agree with Arthur here, Blair and virtually the whole Labour party sold out for power. They dragged us into a war that killed hundreds of thousands and left a country in a shambles, ensuring civil war for decades. That was the crime of the century, not anything done by Thatcher. I said years ago, that the British people would not cleanse themselves till any vestige of the administration who dragged them to war against their wishes, had been obliterated. That has almost completely come to pass. I repeat, you vote for capitalism, so you require a capitalist to lead it......Labour/ Socialism should be the steadying voice of opposition, until the day when we are adult enought to live our own lives. |
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19 Oct 10 - 10:35 AM (#3010647) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Silas Well Guys, if you would like to check, you will see that both main party leaders we up for the war, so it would not have mattered who was in power at the time. And, no, not ALL labour MPs and supporters were in favour, far from it. However, sinking the Belgrano as a synical vote gathering exercise was nothing short of mass murder. |
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19 Oct 10 - 11:27 AM (#3010705) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: John MacKenzie Only one party leader knew the WMD's were an invention though! |
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19 Oct 10 - 11:32 AM (#3010710) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: MGM·Lion Yes it was, it was a long way short of mass murder, you innocent fellow. It was a legitimate act of war. I recall someone at the time animadverting against it: "Why, they were running away from the scene of conflict," he trustingly explained. "And what," I asked him, "do they say about 'He who fights & runs away'?" He thought about it for a second, and then changed the subject. I think it would be seemly, Silas, if you were to do the same. I fear you are not showing yourself in the most flattering of lights. ~Michael~ |
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19 Oct 10 - 11:34 AM (#3010714) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Silas Well Michael old chap, if you bother to recall or read about it if you are not old enough to remember, the Belgrano was outside the 200 mile exclusion zone and sailing away from the area. Apart from a bit of sabre rattling, there had been no significant aggresion up to this point. |
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19 Oct 10 - 11:34 AM (#3010715) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Backwoodsman "However, sinking the Belgrano as a synical vote gathering exercise was nothing short of mass murder" Clearly you're not someone who has been at sea in a combat scenario, or for that matter ever faced an enemy in a wartime situation at all. If you had, you'd never have made a statement as crass as that one. The Belgrano posed a threat to the UK forces in the area and it was good military prudence to neutralise it. If you can suggest any kind of workable method of neutralising a heavily armed Battle-Cruiser without any risk or loss of life (on either side), I'm sure there's a group of extremely high-ranking officers at the Admiralty who would be very interested to hear from you. |
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19 Oct 10 - 11:34 AM (#3010716) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Dave MacKenzie Wasn't George Brown Dolly MacLennan's husband? And the late Gordon Brown was a great second row for Scotland and the Lions. My point about majorities was one that Thatcher herself brought up, when she changed the traditionally accepted meaning of "majority" specially for the first Scottish devolution referendum. I said at the time she was first elected as Prime Minister, that although she didn't understand Parliamentary Democracy, she was an expert at manipulating the system! |
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19 Oct 10 - 11:39 AM (#3010721) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Backwoodsman "the Belgrano was outside the 200 mile exclusion zone and sailing away from the area" Oh dear, that old red herring again - you disappoint us, Silas. A ship of the size of the Belgrano could reverse course in around five minutes. You show your ignorance of seamanship, my boy. |
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19 Oct 10 - 11:44 AM (#3010728) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Silas Five minutes? Really? I think not. A 12,000 ton ship turn round in five min! Let us hae some more of your expert sea - wisdom. |
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19 Oct 10 - 12:04 PM (#3010743) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: John MacKenzie "The sinking of the Belgrano became a cause célèbre for anti-war campaigners in Britain. This was for a variety of reasons, including because the ship was outside the 200 mile (320 kilometre) Total Exclusion Zone that the British had declared around the Falkland Islands, because the ship was on a westerly heading at the time it was attacked, and because a Peruvian peace proposal was still on the table at the time of the attack. However, the sinking of the Belgrano was justified under international law, as the heading of a belligerent naval vessel has no bearing on its status. Furthermore, the Hector Bonzo, the captain of the Belgrano, has himself testified that the attack was legitimate for this reason. The fact that the ship was outside the British declared Total Exclusion Zone does not affect this analysis, especially since the British had informed Argentina on April 23rd, that Argentine ships and aircraft outside the Exclusion Zone could be attacked if they posed a threat to the British task force, and senior figures in the Argentine Navy have made clear that they understood this message; for example, Argentine Rear-Admiral Allara who commanded the Belgrano's task group said "After that message of 23 April, the entire South Atlantic was an operational theatre for both sides. We, as professionals, said it was just too bad that we lost the Belgrano.". Finally, in 1994, the Argentine government conceded that the sinking of the Belgrano was a "legal act of war." " The USS Phoenix, later to become the Belrano had 4 screws, it is possible to put your starboard engines in reverse, while keep the port ones Full Ahead, put your helm hard to starboard, and this will bring her about pretty smartly. |
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19 Oct 10 - 12:09 PM (#3010749) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: MGM·Lion read about it if you are not old enough to remember, === I am 78 Silas; don't be silly, there is a dear fellow. ~M~ |
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19 Oct 10 - 12:12 PM (#3010751) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Silas The Belgrano was about 40 years old, it was sailing away from the area, it was being shadowed by the British submarine HMS Conqueror and was no immidiate threat. If it had turned and started steaming towards the area then far enough but it didn't. It was not aware of the Briish submarine presence and it's crew were mainly young conscripts. There has still been no satisfactory explniation of the 'loss' of the control room log book off the Conqueror either - if that does not stink of fish, then I don't know what does. If you are seriously defnding this dispicable action then you are no better than her. |
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19 Oct 10 - 12:16 PM (#3010760) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Backwoodsman So you're not contesting that the fact that it was 'sailing away' is a red herring - just trying to split hairs over the few minutes that it would take to reverse course eh? So, for the sake of argument, let's assume it took double that time - ten minutes, say (it certainly wouldn't take any longer than that). How much less of a threat to British forces do you estimate that would make it? |
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19 Oct 10 - 12:28 PM (#3010768) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Silas Well, Backwoodsman, I reckon it would probably take an hour or so to turn the ship round, but that is not really the point is it? The point is that it was not and could never have been a threat as it was being followed by a british submarine. You may or may ot be aware of the Peruvian peace plan that was in place and the possible consequences for Britain if it had been allowed to mediate. |
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19 Oct 10 - 12:48 PM (#3010786) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Backwoodsman "Well, Backwoodsman, I reckon it would probably take an hour or so to turn the ship round," It would take considerably less than an hour. Ten minutes would see a 180-deg. turn completed in a vessel of that size. But the time is irrelevant - the fact is that it was a manoeuvrable asset which was capable of attacking British forces. "but that is not really the point is it?" You're the one who tried to use the fact that it was 'sailing away' as a criticism of the decision to attack. I'm simply demonstrating that its course is easily changed, and therefore irrelevant so, yes, that is the point. |
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19 Oct 10 - 12:52 PM (#3010790) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Backwoodsman And, BTW, I'm no Thatcher-Lover (see my earlier posts). But I'd rather we supported those whose responsibility is the defence of our nation than still be slagging them off thirty years later. And I'm talking there about the servicemen and others who actually went out and got their hands dirty doing the fighting, not the politicians sitting on their fat arses in London. |
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19 Oct 10 - 12:58 PM (#3010797) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Silas Well, I suppose it depends on how fast the ship was going in the first place. Please do not think for one moment that I am in any way denigratinmg the service men and women who were there - far from it. The point is, they should not have been put through the horror of the war any more that the service personel in Iraq ad Afghanistan. Bastard self seeking politicans. |
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19 Oct 10 - 02:45 PM (#3010866) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: akenaton So...Mrs Thatcher was no worse morally than any other politician? |
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19 Oct 10 - 05:37 PM (#3011004) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: MGM·Lion === If you are seriously defnding this dispicable action then you are no better than her. === I have made no claim to be 'better than her', whatever that is supposed to mean, Silas. You have denounced the action as 'despicable' [note correct spelling please], to be contradicted by a chorus of better informed counter-opinion; & have now fallen back on constantly reiterated mouthing of anti-war platitudes. We all know that war is not nice, thanks ~~ especially those of us who have really lived thru it: I was in London thruout both blitzes in WWII, & was required to undergo the boredom, futility & worse [3 of my training platoon were killed in Korea or Cyprus, & a friend at college had one leg and an MC] of National Service if that is any interest to you. Your generation don't know you are born, & you clearly know little of what you gab, young man. But it [i.e. war]is one of those phenomena for which humanity is still seeking a better idea after countless æons of finding none. I don't imagine that your generation will be much more sucessful. ~Michael~ |
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19 Oct 10 - 06:46 PM (#3011053) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: s&r From Sky: Lady Thatcher was taken to the private Bupa Cromwell Hospital in west London. No surprise there then Stu |
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20 Oct 10 - 03:48 AM (#3011253) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Silas T MtheGm Anti-war plattitudes? Where? I am certainly against a war enaged upon for party political reasons. I am not a young man, whilst not as old as you (and I don't subscribe to the view that age brings wisdom) I am approaching my 60th year slightly quicker than I really want to. I have, however, managed to avoid the tiresome pomposity and smugness that some people attract as age takes its toll. I do however, apologise most humbly for my poor spelling, it must be qute distressing for you to have to wade through my awful spelling and grammar in order to try to extract the point I am making from my writings. |
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20 Oct 10 - 04:11 AM (#3011264) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Richard Bridge "military prudence" and genuine need are two wholly different things. Remember Ali G's "So nuke 'em while dey is weak"? Thatcher's conduct of the Falklands situation was doubtlessly a piece of electioneering posturing. Murder for votes is not acceptable. |
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20 Oct 10 - 05:40 AM (#3011299) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: John MacKenzie Oh dear, how dare the Argies start a war, just when we thought we had a faint chance of getting elected! :) Gawd, why are so many Socialists mean and nasty. They can neither lose or win, gracefully. It is truly a belief of the heart, and not the head. The collision of idealism, and pragmatism. |
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20 Oct 10 - 10:01 AM (#3011432) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie The vitriol spilled on this thread, including by me, does make me think... Was she really that powerful? Did she really plan things and push forward ideology over pragmatism? Actually no. As I recall, Nicholas Ridley, Norman Tebbit, Sir Keith Joseph et al. They were the architects of what we call Thatcherism. She was the willing front for greater minds than hers. She knew how to chemically extract the cream from the top of a pint of milk and possibly how to do the books in a small grocery, but she delivered the failed dream of others. The problem was... the idiots couldn't control her. Interestingly, you can read up on the infection rates and inspections at Cromwell Hospital on the CQC website. Better get that cheap Pomagne in the fridge then. |
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20 Oct 10 - 11:20 AM (#3011502) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Dave MacKenzie "the idiots couldn't control her." Apparently our European partners didn't have this problem. I remember reading about how they would get her focussed on one point that they were happy to concede, then do everything they wanted while she was convinced that she had won a great diplomatic victory. |
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21 Oct 10 - 03:35 AM (#3012010) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: GUEST,Patsy Maggie was a war monger, her close pal was Pinocet that is a scary thought for a start she must have known a great deal about him. Equally Blair is as guilty over the episode of Iraq but like Thatcher he had the gift of the gab. Perhaps he had a 'secret stiffy' for her too. |
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21 Oct 10 - 04:01 AM (#3012020) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: MGM·Lion >>I have, however, managed to avoid the tiresome pomposity and smugness that some people attract<< Sez U, Silas. Could have fooled me. Best regards ~Michael~ |
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21 Oct 10 - 04:36 AM (#3012029) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Silas (wink) |
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21 Oct 10 - 01:12 PM (#3012318) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: GUEST,kevin Heard recently of a competition to design a memorial for her grave when the day finally arrives. The winner was a dance-floor. |
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21 Oct 10 - 02:52 PM (#3012386) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Greg F. The winner should have ben a urinal. |
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21 Oct 10 - 03:18 PM (#3012411) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: John MacKenzie Looks like David Cameron is in for a lifetime of vituperation from a similar source. Bread and cicuses matey, bread and circuses |
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21 Oct 10 - 06:57 PM (#3012564) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: GUEST,cujimmy Look at these quotes in the Guardian from Rupert Murdoch - what planet is he on - This evening, I speak as more than an admirer of Margaret Thatcher. I speak as a person grateful for the opportunities this nation has given me – and the opportunities she has created for every other individual in Great Britain. How quickly too many people have forgotten that she has not only changed Britain, but, along with Ronald Reagan, changed the world, much, much for the better. |
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21 Oct 10 - 07:11 PM (#3012574) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Dave MacKenzie Like the vast majority of politicians, the changes she made were all for the worse. While there may have been some who've changed things for the better, I can't think of anyone who's done it deliberately. |
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22 Oct 10 - 02:18 AM (#3012775) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Teribus "Like the vast majority of politicians, the changes she made were all for the worse. While there may have been some who've changed things for the better, I can't think of anyone who's done it deliberately. - Dave MacKenzie Now as I look back through the mists of time I can see the evidence of mankinds ever decreasing condition and the stripping away of every right he ever had - Seriously??? Naw, we are now healthier, live longer, are taken care of within bounds, not seen many "Workhouses" of late, slavery has been abolished and children are no longer rammed up chimneys or forced down coalmines. In short Dave your observation is a complete and utter crock. The life I now lead is much, much better than the one enjoyed by my Grandfather, and guess what? Politicians had a great deal to do with that. Some are a damn sight better than others, as witnessed by the last thirteen years in the UK, where the country suffered under a particularly lousy crop. One thing you should expect from our elected government is a thing called "Leadership" and above all else Margaret Thatcher did "Lead" even when she knew that it would be unpopular and against the best interests of her Political Party she still took the decisions that needed to be taken. "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. - Winston Churchill He was right judging by some of the comments on this thread. |
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22 Oct 10 - 03:44 AM (#3012794) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: s&r Leaders inspire, and people follow with good grace. Dictators order, and people acquiesce with reluctance. Thatcher was no leader. Stu |
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22 Oct 10 - 03:56 AM (#3012800) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: GUEST,Patsy The only good thing going for her was that she was a good strong speaker that commanded an audience. I do not like the lady and never will but perhaps all the leaders could learn from her professionalism if only in speaking. She would never have been caught out making comments about passers-by with microphones accidently still switched on as Gordon Brown did. His gaff was that he was too rough around the edges and surprisingly niave and to add to that Tony Blair writes a book slagging him off! Politicians today seem to be so weak, any piece of bad publicity financial or sexual preferences knocks them for six. |
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22 Oct 10 - 04:05 AM (#3012804) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie Politicians do set the scene and enable through legislation, but Teribus is putting too much emphasis on the role of a politician. Enhancing of life expectations is achieved by a combination of the expertise of entrepreneurs and their backers combined with the will of people to embrace change. Thatcher is an example of what can happen when political leaders over step the mark and try interfering too much with society. Power corrupts etc etc. As I said above, she called me and my workmates "the enemy within." Now then, let's see, I wonder if you can think of other leaders of countries who started by saying such things about sections of the society they were supposed to be working for? (I'll give you a clue, think murdering genocidal despots through the years...) A totalitarian witch who if she had been clever enough would have changed politics alright, but not in the way some rose tinted spectacle wearing pillocks think. Geoffrey Howe doesn't strike me as the saviour of freedom, but his resignation speech makes you think? |
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22 Oct 10 - 04:29 AM (#3012813) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Dave MacKenzie There are many ways that life today is better than that led by our fathers and grandfathers, and many ways in which it's worse, but I don't think thirty years of Thatcherism has done my children and grandchildren any favours. Most of her policies were to reverse those of Winston Churchill. As for socialism, I don't see what it has to do with British politics. |
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22 Oct 10 - 05:38 AM (#3012831) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Keith A of Hertford I have a photo. of her aboard a Hercules, and me as one of those preparing to jump. I was doing that for 27 years, and no other politician ever showed any interest in what we were doing. She was leader of opposition then. Another time at RAF Northolt when she was PM. We had our containers and parachutes lined up when we were told to move it all because she was arriving. We were a bit put out and grumbled. She flew in from some conference and would have been looking forward to getting home, but on seeing us she stopped the car and had a word and a handshake with every man. |
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22 Oct 10 - 06:38 AM (#3012861) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: John MacKenzie There is no doubt that Gordon Brown was inept as a communicator, but it goes back to my 'head/heart' definition. Both Maggie and Tony were 'head' politicians, they saw it as a business, more than a belief. Those who are 'heart' politicians, never really do very well in the cut throat world of 'Real Politik' Gordon was on casualty, Michael Foot was another. Just think back to the list labelled 'Best PM/Leader, we NEVER had. People like John Smith, and Ian Macleod, conviction politicians to a man. There is a certainty that a governement made up of people who were ruled by their hearts, and not their heads, would fail miserably. Sadly. |
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22 Oct 10 - 06:46 AM (#3012871) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: akenaton "All political careers end in failure" |
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22 Oct 10 - 07:22 AM (#3012885) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: GUEST,Patsy Yes I remember John Smith good man and sadly missed. |
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22 Oct 10 - 07:33 AM (#3012889) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: Arthur_itus All Prime Ministers are like England Football managers. We all know what a pasting they get. |
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27 May 11 - 03:13 PM (#3161427) Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher's Birthday. From: GUEST,Mikehunt Margaret Thatcher impersonator, comedienne and actress Janet Brown, has died. Actress and comic Janet Brown, best known for her impersonation of Lady Thatcher, died today. Her agent said the 87-year-old died in her sleep in a nursing home in Hove, East Sussex, after a short illness. In a career going back to the 1930s, she worked with stars including TV star Hughie Green, comedy legend Tony Hancock and Minder star George Cole. |