Help: How to ID a Traveler

01 Nov 10 - 02:18 PM (#3020922)
Subject: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: wysiwyg

I'm well aware of the dual history and reputation of "the travelers" in the US, and that a few bad apples have put a bad name on the lot.

What is a question I can ask that will point me toward discerning whether I'm talking to a good apple or not?

Need ASAP.

~Susan

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01 Nov 10 - 02:28 PM (#3020938)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: BobKnight

If you could tell by looking, or asking one question, the police would already have arrested the bad ones.

Use all your own observations. If something seems too good to be true, then it's because it's too good to be true. Good luck.

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01 Nov 10 - 02:29 PM (#3020942)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: wysiwyg

Tell me more. That's helpful but tell me more.

Are travelers active in Canadia?

~Susan

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01 Nov 10 - 02:35 PM (#3020945)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: wysiwyg

I'm jes' a wee tad slow.... but altho I was not born in the morning, it wasn't THIS morning. Considering the implications I'm looking at here, I think our retired state cop pal will drop by to assist them to move in. :~)

(A sublet of a room for a month is involved.)

My discernment backed by his backed by the dog's backed by the husband about to arrive home at about the same time.

~Susan

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01 Nov 10 - 03:08 PM (#3020975)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: GUEST,Russ

How 'bout something even simpler.
When in doubt. don't.

Russ (Permanent GUEST)

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01 Nov 10 - 03:25 PM (#3020995)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: open mike

references?

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01 Nov 10 - 03:29 PM (#3020999)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: GUEST,mg

I know that you need to ask each and every person that applies the exact same questions..that includes the old ladies who come for the quilting conference and the mothers against drunk driving and the other ministers etc. Or, you could get in trouble with Housing Authority, etc., although the laws might vary if they are actually in the home you are living in. mg

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01 Nov 10 - 03:34 PM (#3021007)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: open mike

not just the last place they lived, but the one before that as well..
employment?

once when i rented a house, the list for the renter to sign to agree to was long...and each point was from a lesson learned by the land
lord...do not take screens, stoves or windows you when you leave..
do not leave junk cars in the yard...no sub-sub-letting to other friends or relatives.....limit the number of people who can occupy the room(s),

oh, and livestock??? does your space allowed require any restrictions there..??

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01 Nov 10 - 03:43 PM (#3021015)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: wysiwyg

Only needed what I asked for. Situation now handled. :~) I can turn on a dime.

Not going to go into it here.


Thanks all,

~Susan

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01 Nov 10 - 03:55 PM (#3021031)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: Jim Carroll

"I'm well aware of the dual history and reputation of "the travelers" in the US"
I assume that you would put put this question about anybody you meet - or would you?
I would never wish to spend time with anybody who owned a gun - which would include a large number of your fellow-countrymen.
Or anybody who voted for a political thug like Bush - or went to a Tea-Party, or supported the use of chemical weapons on a civilians, or allowed their government to hold political prisoners without trial.....
All communities have good and bad elements; the difference with Travellers is if a Traveller misbehaves, suspicion then falls on the whole community - racist stereotyping - as demonstrated by they above comment "When in doubt. don't".
Travellers come in all shapes, sizes and personalities - I spent thirty-odd years of my life in their company, listening to and recording their songs and stories and enjoying their tremendous warmth, hospitality and bottomless generosity.
If you feel you have to put them through an examination before you spend time with them - stay at home, lock your door and turn your television on.
Jim Carroll

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01 Nov 10 - 04:11 PM (#3021043)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: Midchuck

I would never wish to spend time with anybody who owned a gun - which would include a large number of your fellow-countrymen.

You're kidding, right? Outside of the cities and suburbs - and within them in the West and South - you'd have to be a virtual hermit. In Vermont and Montana, and the rest of northern New England and of the mountain West, at least, you could hardly talk to anyone. Including me, Kendall, and Gawd knows how many other US mudcatters, most of whom wouldn't hurt a flea unless the flea was shooting at him/her, or coming at him/her with a knife or something.

Peter

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01 Nov 10 - 04:39 PM (#3021064)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: Jim Carroll

"at least, you could hardly talk to anyone. Including me, Kendall, and Gawd knows how many other US mudcatters,"
Maybe everything they say about the Yanks is true then - thanks for the warning.
Jim Carroll

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01 Nov 10 - 04:39 PM (#3021066)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: TheSnail

Bizarre though it may seem, I am entirely in agreement with Jim. Susan appears to be subletting a room to a total stranger. That is not without its risks. Why is their being a traveler relevant? Try substituting Negro, Jew, Christian, Muslim, Hispanic, Irish, Canadian, Welsh, Mexican, Man, Woman or any other subset of humanity that you feel you have reason to distrust and see how comfortable you feel with the question.

Judge the individual, not the category they belong to.

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01 Nov 10 - 04:41 PM (#3021067)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: McGrath of Harlow

How do you "I.D." anyone else?

People who live in houses? People who ride bicycles? People who shave? People who grow beards? Men? Women?...

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01 Nov 10 - 05:00 PM (#3021077)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: Noreen

What would Jesus do, Susan?

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01 Nov 10 - 05:43 PM (#3021104)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: wysiwyg

Repite-me:

Only needed what I asked for. Situation now handled. :~) I can turn on a dime.

Not going to go into it here.


Thanks all,

~Susan

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01 Nov 10 - 06:05 PM (#3021125)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: McGrath of Harlow

Maybe we'll now have a spate of clone thread:

How to ID a folkie

How to ID an American

How to ID a Black Man

How to ID a Muslim

How to ID a Jew...

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01 Nov 10 - 06:16 PM (#3021141)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

What do you mean by a "traveler"? Someone passing through? A gipsy?
Does the person have ID, drivers license, credit cards or other means of identification?

Traveller has a different, more specific, connotation in UK.

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01 Nov 10 - 07:13 PM (#3021184)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: Richard Bridge

My inference was that "traveler" meant Romany, part Romany, didiquai, tinker, or other person whose habitual lifestyle (or whose family's or forbears' lifestyle) was itinerant.

As in - "I'm a free born man of the travelling peoples".

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01 Nov 10 - 08:27 PM (#3021227)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: framus

Has he offered to sell you lucky heather, or to tarmac your drive?
Does he own a caravan?
Are his eyes too close together?
If he has a camel and frequents souks, he probably is.
A propos of nothing at all, I had to play The Travelling People for an AmDram company on a mandoline for far too many nights. God, its a boring tune.

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01 Nov 10 - 08:31 PM (#3021230)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: InOBU

I met a gyzho today. I understand over two million are in jail in the USA. How do I know this is not a bad gyzho? after all, they killed 1\3 of us in WW II, they are still killing us in eastern Europe, burning us out of our homes in Belfast, British mob violence kills our children in our caravan camps, Gyzhos are racial profiling us in the US. They make war of innocents, rape murder, steal and destroy.

arrac sa jas, I suppose is the only way to go around country folks...

Roma thai Pavees oprea!

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01 Nov 10 - 08:41 PM (#3021237)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: McGrath of Harlow

God, its a boring tune.

I'd hazard a guess the fault might have lain elsewhere from the tune...

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01 Nov 10 - 08:59 PM (#3021250)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: Stilly River Sage

If any other questions arise, a PM to InOBU would probably get you the best answer. I've followed several threads in the past where these gypsy populations have been discussed and he's the most knowledgeable amongst us.

If they're bad ones, you'll find out. The hard way.

SRS

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01 Nov 10 - 09:20 PM (#3021261)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Is W....... talking about a gypsy? Or an itinerant freeloader? Or?

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01 Nov 10 - 09:26 PM (#3021264)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: Stilly River Sage

Travelers are gypsies, Roma, etc.

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01 Nov 10 - 10:04 PM (#3021278)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: Stilly River Sage

Garg, if you voluntarily give keys to someone who is staying in your home, even for a fee, I think the insurance company will laugh you out of the office if you try to collect on such a claim. It's probably different if you have a designated separate dwelling entirely designated as rental property.

That's my guess, anyway.

SRS

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01 Nov 10 - 10:40 PM (#3021294)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: Leadfingers

In UK , MOST real gypsies seem to be settled . though a lot are still travelling . Sadly , most of the Itinerants over here are NOT Roma of any kind , but Irish Tinkers who , in general . seem Hell Bent on blackening the good name of the Irish !

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02 Nov 10 - 12:24 AM (#3021336)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: michaelr

Wow.

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02 Nov 10 - 12:50 AM (#3021341)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: Gurney

Sage is correct in his assumption that any resident or anyone who is invited in by a resident is legitimately on the premises, so no claim for theft or damages will be honoured. Theft or damage.
That is how it works here in NZ, anyway. The intruder has to actually break in, leaving evidence of the break-in, before a claim will be honoured. If you leave a window open, bad luck, Jack!

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02 Nov 10 - 04:41 AM (#3021390)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: Jim Carroll

"most of the Itinerants over here are NOT Roma of any kind , but Irish Tinkers who , in general . seem Hell Bent on blackening the good name of the Irish ! "
Wow indeed - racism in the raw. Now where is my local extermination camp; I wrote the address down somewhere......?
Or maybe there's room for them at Guantanamo?
Jim Carroll

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02 Nov 10 - 07:14 AM (#3021467)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: GUEST,Patsy

True though Roma and Irish Tinkers are two different things, ask the Roma their point of view on the subject if in doubt!

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02 Nov 10 - 07:42 AM (#3021484)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: Leadfingers

Jim Carroll - Tell me how my post is 'Racism in the Raw' ? And which 'Race' is it direced at ?

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02 Nov 10 - 11:12 AM (#3021623)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: Jim Carroll

"True though Roma and Irish Tinkers are two different things,"
Yes - they are different; though inter-marriage and leaving the road to settle in houses has diminished those differences considerably in the last half century. There has been a tendency with the English Travellers we have met to overstate those differences in order to separate their community from other groups, particulary the Irish and Scots Travellers This has been mainly in order to scapegoat them and blame them for all ofences committed by Travellers, absolving themselves from such behaviour.
The truth is that you are no more likely to find a villain within any one given Travelling community; criminality occures basically from the appalling Third World conditions that all Travellers are forced to live, not their racial or cultural origins.
Iven if it were true that 'Romanies' were totally different from any other group of Travellers - so what - difference does not mean 'inferior' or 'more likely to be thieves and con-men' as was implied by Leadfingers racist statement regarding "Irish Tinkers, who , in general seem Hell Bent on blackening the good name of the Irish".
In today's world the term 'true Romany' has become as meaningless as 'True Brit' or True Anglo Saxon' or 'True Celt' - a form of sectartian bullshit to marginalise people from different cultural backgrounds.
Jim Carroll

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02 Nov 10 - 12:00 PM (#3021663)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: Stilly River Sage

It's a vicious circle, Jim. No one denies that. Search through the Mudcat archive for posts from InOBU about Travelers. He's very lucid in his support of these groups.

SRS

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02 Nov 10 - 01:05 PM (#3021736)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: McGrath of Harlow

How to ID a racist...

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02 Nov 10 - 01:09 PM (#3021738)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: Greg F.

Hmmmmm...........Susan the Christian Racist.

Interesting.

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02 Nov 10 - 01:34 PM (#3021769)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: McGrath of Harlow

I was thinking more in terms of a post like the one Jim Carroll picked out for comment.
........................

If some strangers comes to your front door offering to do some work for you, it is not sensible to take them on trust without some evidence that they are competent and honest - but that applies whoever they are.

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02 Nov 10 - 02:24 PM (#3021818)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: Stilly River Sage

I didn't read Jim's post closely the first time, I skipped past the attack. Sarcasm can drive readers away from otherwise useful information.

Jim, do you have links to published information about these songs, or links to performances?

SRS

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02 Nov 10 - 04:09 PM (#3021920)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: Jim Carroll

SRS
Selections from our collection have been issued on a double CD 'From Puck To Appleby' available from Musical Traditions Internet magazine, where the 30 odd pages of notes are freely accessible.
Full copies of our entire collection are housed at The National Sound Archive in The British Library, The Folklore Department in Dublin and The Irish Traditiona Music Archive, also in Dublin. The latter is intending to feature selection from the collection on their web-site in the near future. We are happy to supply copies of articles and scripts of talks on our work to anybody interested enough to request.
By the way; it is characteristic of the generosity of the Travellers we met that all the proceeds of the CDs we made should be donated to The Irish Traditional Music Archive.
"Sarcasm can drive readers away from otherwise useful information"
I make no apologies for the tone I adopted in my response to what I believe to be a racist attitude - the situation as far as Travellers are concerned, certainly here in Ireland, has gone far beyond polite debate as far as I'm concerned.
This is what I pm'd earlier to one of the contributors to this (somewhat disturbing) thread.
".....and not divide them into black, white, Asian, Native American, Catholic, Protestant, Traveller settled......
I understand your situation; try to understand mine - or rather, theirs; the Travellers.
The situation here regarding Travellers is heading gradually towards that of the Jews in pre-war Germany.
The "lucky" ones are being forced off the roads and into little boxes of houses, built specifically for them, surrounded by large walls to hide them from the view of us "normal people" - they are being ghettoised.
Those not so lucky, the vast majority of them, are denied a place to stay, running water, electricity, sanitation, education for their children, full access to health facilities, a regular job.... all the things we take for granted.
As a people, they are dying off; there will almost certainly be no Travellers on the road in ten - maybe twenty years time. The settled community will have "ethnically cleansed" them out of existance.
If they were the worst people in the world they would not deserve the treatment we give them as a matter of course.
But they are not the worst people in the world.
In the thirty years my wife and I worked with them, we found them to be kind, generous to a fault, highly knowledgeable, sensitive, and, considering the treatment that is meted out to them daily, the most tolerant people we have ever met.
An added, (purely selfish on our part) aspect of our association with them has been that they have retained the folk traditions, the songs, stories, music, lore, we believe to be so important and enjoyable, long after our settled communities have abandoned them. Luckily, often at great inconvenience and expense to themselves, they have been more than happy to share them and allow us to record them.
They desrve to be treated as human beings and not as 'suspect' Travellers - surely?"
Jim Carroll

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02 Nov 10 - 04:18 PM (#3021940)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: Wolfgang

I find it difficult to spot the bad apples in general.

Is it any more difficult in Sinti and Roma, in Muslims, in Africans, in redheads, in Irish than in WASPs?

Or is the implication that the baserate of bad apples is higher in Sinti and Roma?

Then I have a severe warning for I know a subgroup of humans you really should distrust: Young males. Among them, the base rate of bad apples is really so much higher than in females that you'd better trust none of them.

Wolfgang

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02 Nov 10 - 04:25 PM (#3021946)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Oh, come now, Wolfgang. The female has been the ruination of many a man.

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02 Nov 10 - 08:01 PM (#3022104)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: InOBU

Manya louie, Jim Carroll!
I know a few Jim Carrolls, brothers on the road and good men all.
Are we all Romany? Well, I was at a Scottish Traveller wedding and was asked if Scottish Travellers came out of the Romany migrations. Well, yes, we all, in our origion storries are sisters and brothers. Pavees come from a different origion, Scottish travellers come from our origional migration from India, but what is obvious here, is we are all branded with the big "G" and if we are put in the same boat we should all row together.
At the end of the day, if Travellers and Roma are not one nation, then the Irish are not Celts - no celtic migrations reached into Ireland, - check the DNA evidence... but celtic culture did.
We travelling folks share a commonality of culture and discrimination. So... not are we all Roma, but we all are Traveller. Yek manushen, yek ratt... yek drom, yek famalia, yek natsia.

Jim PM me, gavie shaun?

As to Leadfingers, you are a friend and brother and I send you a pint and a hug... but on this subject... bite me.

Wolfgang... You have honnored me in the past, and bless you, your nation has such a burden of history regarding my family, you are the future of your nation. I once passed through that nation at night, as I could not bear the pain of the sun shining on me on that soil where my families blood was spilled. But, your words are a balm in Giliad. You are a brother and a friend, and in your heart there is the hope of the world. Yours is the water of life. Nyes tuka hai baxtalo

Stop looking for "Gypsies" look for neighbors and friends.

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02 Nov 10 - 09:17 PM (#3022162)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: katlaughing

Thank you, Lorcan!

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03 Nov 10 - 05:36 AM (#3022349)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: Jim Carroll

Before this thread disappears under the usual atmoshere of doom-and-gloom that discussions on Travellers tend to surround themselves with, I hope nobody minds too much if I add a ray of sunshine to it with a story that has nothing directly to do with the subject in hand.
One of our singer/storyteller friends, Kerry Traveller Mikeen McCarthy, rented a yard in Hackney, in East London, where he and his family stayed for several years. Mikeen was an activist who spent a great deal of time fighting for decent stopping places and recognition for members of his community, which brought him into constant contact with a great number of his fellow-Travellers and also with quite a few of the settled community.
About a dozen years ago he took it into his head to make a collection among Travellers for the Save The Children Fund, the end result being significant enough for the Fund to contact him saying that their then President, Princess Anne, would like to thank him in person.
Arrangements were made for her to visit the site, and she turned up with her entourage, including two bodyguards, who were put on duty at the gates of of the yard, which was surrounded by high, open railings.
The Local Lord Mayor of Hackney had got to hear of the visit and decided it was a perfect opportunity for a photo-shoot, so he turned up in full mayoral regalia, with a photographer and secretary, and asked could he speak to the princess - he was refused by the muscle at the gate.
He then went off and managed to attract the attention of one of the Traveller children through the railings, and gave her a message that the Lord Mayor of Hackney would like an audience with the princess.
The child went across to the caravan where Mikeen and his wife and the princess were talking, popped her head around the door and said, "Hey missus; there's a feller out here with a big necklace, who wants to talk to you".
The incident made the local press under the headline, "Hey Missus!" We have the photograph of the visit in our collection to prove that I am not making the story up.
Jim Carroll

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03 Nov 10 - 06:14 AM (#3022364)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: maeve

Thanks for that, Jim. What a mind picture your story has given me!

Without exception, the many Traveler and Roma families I've met in Scotland and Italy have treated me kindly.

Maeve

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03 Nov 10 - 08:32 AM (#3022429)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: InOBU

=D Great story Jim, and true, too often these threads just turn to gloom and doom - so anyone looking for Travellers whould do best to buy a Paddy Keenan CD, put your feet up, and fill your ears.

Lorcan

PS the post from me the other night was after an event we have here at the theatre every so often, "Drunken staff movie night" - so it is a little less scholarly than many of my scribblings... I notice, I did not finish the dsscription of two communities - that for the most part Irish and Scottish Traveller communities have a separate origion.
Well, there is a story I love which tell the diff... Once all the people of the world stood before God for a big devano. God said, look folks, heaven is a fine place to be, but, you need a bit of ground under your feet... I made this lovely place called earth.
You Black nations and tribes, Dembis, Watusis, Hutus, Hotentots, folks, here is Africa, 1/4th of the place, very nice, all for you, you Chineese, Japaneese, Monglolians, Indians, Pakistanis, folks, here is Asia, 1/4th of the place, all for you, You White blokes, English fellows, French fellows, German guys, Belgins, here is Europe, one 1/4... and you Iroquoi, Lakota, Creek, Aztec, Mayan, Innu, here is Turtle Island, America, 1/4 of the place, all yours.
And you, Kalderasha, Lovaria, Churia, Machuwya, Tatari, Sinti, Gitanos, Pavees, Yenisha, Domari, Usari, you, are my favorite children.
A young Kalderash shava in the front row jumps up and throws his hat down on the ground and stamps on it, "DEVELESSA! Are you DILO!? God are you crazy? What did you remember to give you favorite children?
God smiled and said, the whole planet.

Those with nothing, have everything.

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03 Nov 10 - 09:36 AM (#3022467)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: Jim Carroll

"put your feet up, and fill your ears."
Throughout the time we were recording Travellers we met very few musicians; not counting the wonderful Paddy Keenan, who shortly after we heard him, moved to America.
We were aware of the tiny handful of Johnny Doran recordings, - (now available in a re-mastered edition), and those of his brother Felix, but it appeared that, despite their past importance, nobody in the community played anymore.
Now, thanks to Limerick University's efforts to draw attention to their importance in the tradition, they are re-emerging as an influential force.
This area in West Clare now hosts a Traveller pipers' weekend every spring, appropriately in the same area that the Dorans played at the Miltown Races back in the thirties and forties.
The excellent CD-rom of the Dunne Brothers (issued by Limerick Uni. Irish World Academy of Music and Dance) does a great job of setting the music in a social and historic context.
Young Travellers are taking up the music once more, and, thanks to the work of broadcaster Paula Carroll (a friend, but no relation), young singers are re-appearing.
So it's not all bad news, but it really is time we started to break down the barriers and the breathtaking ignorance that never fails to leave a sour taste in the mouth.
Jim Carroll

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04 Nov 10 - 09:22 AM (#3023327)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: Diva

It has been an honour for me over many years being involved with folk music to meet and talk and sing with folk who are travellers....and I second what Jim says above with such eleoquence

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04 Nov 10 - 09:37 AM (#3023340)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: Diva

and inOBU too!

People are just people

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04 Nov 10 - 09:56 AM (#3023355)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: Donuel

I had a discussion with a woman formerlly from Hungary and she voiced every predjudice regarding Romana in the book :shiftless etc.
In the same breath she exclaimed she was not a bigot.

This was just one of many comments regarding ethnic tension and tribalism issues coming from people who consider themselves liberals.

Oy

people are just people, people.

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04 Nov 10 - 11:10 AM (#3023409)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: GUEST,Neil D

Reading this thread got me to thinking I hadn't seen any posts from Romany Man for a while. I looked it up and he hasn't posted since june, 09. Does anyone know what's become of him? I hope he is well. I was always moved by his poetry.

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04 Nov 10 - 11:55 AM (#3023439)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

I'm pretty certain I've seen RomanyMan post much more recently. Maybe as a Guest? Richard Bridge would no doubt know.
As for his poetry have you seen John Barden's (The Barden of England) setting of R Man's 'Marks in the Grass? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6uZCf3Tf1E

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04 Nov 10 - 12:51 PM (#3023485)
Subject: RE: Help: How to ID a Traveler
From: GUEST,Neil D

I had seen that before but thanks for refreshing my memory of it. Very touching.

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