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29 Nov 10 - 06:29 AM (#3042619) Subject: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: GUEST,Doc John We hear much, from right wing Christian groups and from some Feminists, about the exploitation and trafficking of women in the sex industry. Remember the silly laws Jaqueline Smith tried to introduce when she was home secretary. But hardly a word about exploitation and trafficking of women (or anybody) in other industries: people who work long hours, in poor conditions for low pay, often the taxpayer subsidising the bosses so they can pay low wages. So sex is the dirty work, not exploitation. Complain about the latter and the CBI and their government lackies would resist. The unions have been emasculated, of course, and New Labour did nothing to abolish the anti-union laws. |
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29 Nov 10 - 07:06 AM (#3042635) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: GUEST,cs Though I don't think you have to be either a right-wing Christian or a feminist to object to the slavery of women in the sex industry. Feminist commentators or activists, will obviously be focused on global issues that effect women in particular. As for right-wing Christians however, I've no idea what their bag is, but I'd have assumed anyone calling themselves a Christian would be concerned about human rights abuses in general - be that the slavery of women in the sex trade, or of children in Indian carpet making factories. |
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29 Nov 10 - 07:26 AM (#3042643) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T While I agree with your comments on human trafficking, exploitation, and sex slavery folks, there is a considerable number of prostitutes who are neither slaves, exploited, nor trafficked. Many prostitutes choose that way of earning a living because it is vastly more remunerative than stacking shelves at Sainsbury's, slogging away typing letters in an office, or cutting the hair of affluent middle class women. It could be argued that these "prostitutes by choice" are in fact exploiting the poor sad bastards who come to them because they can't attract females. As to their being exploited by pimps, there too a reciprocal benefit exists, insofar as the girl is protected from assault by punters, at least to some extent. Outside of the sex industry, one still needs to take a balanced view of the situation. Some of those Asian children are very unhappy about us deciding they shouldn't work, as in many cases they are a significant contributor to the finances which prevent their parents from starving. It is a grave error to attempt to impose the customs and mores of one's own culture, upon a radically different culture, without considering the reasons why that culture exists in its current form. Just a few thoughts to balance the argument. Sometimes it isn't absolutely clear who is exploiting whom. Don T. |
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29 Nov 10 - 08:01 AM (#3042661) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Lox "Sometimes it isn't absolutely clear who is exploiting whom." Isn't it yet another case of people with miney exploiting people without? Maybe better to be a prostitute than to cut some rich womans hair ... ... better yet to be a rich woman with somebody cutting your hair ... Though admittedly there are many variables and philosophical complexities invlved ... for both women. |
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29 Nov 10 - 08:46 AM (#3042696) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: GUEST,cs Don, I agree with your post. John specifically spoke of human "trafficking" - that's the trade in human beings bought and sold as property - or in other words slavery. As far as my own post was concerned, I use the term "slavery" to mean nothing less: people forced against their will into slavery. It angers me that the media use the term 'sex workers' to describe slaves, as there are of course many, many prostitutes who are perfectly content with *their choice* of work. It's an utter nonsense to conflate forced slavery with a willingly chosen profession. Similarly, while we may object to children working in other countries, if they are bringing home a wage to their family, then it's a slightly different situation to where children in India are being abducted from their homes and sold into slavery. |
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29 Nov 10 - 08:49 AM (#3042701) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: akenaton Well, it might be fun for some people to promote the idea that some women see it as just another job, but that is simply a mans excuse to exploit women. In the little town near me, the only "prostitutes" are young girls who are addicted to heroin and have a child to support. They are unable to go for help, or apply to join the methadone programme in case the child is removed by social services. They finance their habit by travelling to Glasgow and working the streets two or thre times a week....and every trip their self esteem gets lower. The real criminals are the men who presume these women have a choice, or even enjoy what they do; and exploit them without mercy. Prostitution is certainly not sex in the sense that we all think of it, but a cruel form of oppression inflicted on women by creatures who give beasts a bad name. |
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29 Nov 10 - 08:52 AM (#3042706) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Thompson I was chatting to a prostitute a while ago, and she looked at the time and said: "Oho, time to get to work" - and then, with an air of sarcastic praise to her upcoming customers - "Ohhh, you're so great, that's so big, oooh, never had sex like that..." I was astonished. "What?" I said, "Is it not just plain sex?" "Oh no!" She gave a laugh. "It's all about making them feel big and powerful. That's what they give you the money for." |
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29 Nov 10 - 10:05 AM (#3042746) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: saulgoldie Sex is NEVER just sex. It is always, um, loaded. The issues with prostitution are mostly related to its status as being illegal, to the inequitable treatment of women in all cultures (to at least some degree), and to the inequitable distribution of wealth. If governments and religions would stay out of people's sexual behavior among conscious, mentally capable, uncoerced adults--note the Libertarian qualifications--we would be a long way towards alleviating most of the related problems. If wealth was more fairly distributed among the citizens of spaceship earth and women in general were treated more fairly, they would probably choose other options than to submit themselves to the vulnerability to disease and possibility of violence, not to mention the dehumanization. OTOH, some women, and also men would likely choose it, anyway. I mean, under my ideal circumstances it would be safer, more highly remunerative, and fun, as sex of choice can be. Anyway, what is prostitution, exactly? Is it prostitution if someone enjoys a free expensive evening of food and entertainment and then has sex with the spender? Is it prostitution only when there is a specific agreement to exchange goods or money for sex? "I have a fancy car, a beautiful condo with a fantastic view, loads of jewelry, and I go to lots of very interesting and exciting events, and I get to sleep with one man." (Marriage? Prostitution?) "Yes, I have all that, too. I just sleep with many different men who give me less money each time." How many partners "giving" how much money or goods make it prostitution? Sex always involves some sort of exchange of goods, services, emotional satisfaction. It is only the circumstances that differ. The human drive to do it is our most powerful drive, even more than our very survival. Nature makes it that way, because all she needs from us is to make another generation of us. Saul |
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29 Nov 10 - 10:30 AM (#3042765) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: akenaton I've spoken to some of the girls on my travels, I've yet to meet one who thought it was fun or a choice. Or for that matter, anything to do with nature or procreation. |
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29 Nov 10 - 10:35 AM (#3042767) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: GUEST,Grishka Of course, the widespread vilification of prostitution (and pornography etc.) is about sex. The traditional price of sex for a man is lifelong marriage, i.e. feeding the woman even when she is no longer attractive. Prostitutes are price cutters, they would be even cheaper if they were not brandmarked socially. Similarly, porno shops and their customers are being derided. These ideas, much older and more widespread than Christianity, can be called conservative, i.e. striving to stabilize existing ways of society. Feminists may emphasize that they do not need men at all, but still appreciate being highly priced. Thus, complaints about exploitation are mostly pretexts. (There are other such pretexts and also good arguments.) Exploitation is certainly a real problem, but it is actually fostered by forcing prostitution into "demimonde". |
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30 Nov 10 - 02:40 AM (#3043337) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: GUEST,Patsy Sadly here in Bristol prostitutes are mainly young girls with a drug habit and with a young child to support (possibly by the pimp they are working for) particularly in the Red Light district of St. Paul's. It has always been that way as far as I can remember. |
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30 Nov 10 - 04:14 AM (#3043364) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Donuel Is writing just words? |
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30 Nov 10 - 04:36 AM (#3043376) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: GUEST,Grishka That nobody take me wrong: Fighting exploitation and misery is a noble cause. Fighting extramarital sex is arguable. Fighting extramarital sex on the pretext of fighting exploitation (but tolerating other kinds of exploitation) is hypocrisy. Therefore those who want to help the exploited should watch their tongues (and hearts) not to be mistaken for hypocrites. Outrage and condemnation rarely solve a problem. |
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30 Nov 10 - 05:28 AM (#3043400) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: GUEST,Patsy I am not outraging it my comments was just through observation. St. Paul's is a pretty good community now especially within the last few years with a number of successful carnivals under their belt and it is nice to go there to check some health food shops and spice markets etc. But you can't help but observe it, most people visiting the area know what the area was and is about don't make judgements as used to be the case so it is just accepted. |
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30 Nov 10 - 06:20 AM (#3043429) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: GUEST,Jon Acutely to whoever said it above, a Chrian angle could be of the merging of spirits. That is neither right or left wing, just a belief..There is something to be said IMO for pure and simplie faithfull relationshiips |
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30 Nov 10 - 07:11 AM (#3043449) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Lizzie Cornish 1 "...The traditional price of sex for a man is lifelong marriage, i.e. feeding the woman even when she is no longer attractive...." What a thoroughly unpleasant, and disturbing, comment. |
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30 Nov 10 - 08:21 AM (#3043492) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: GUEST,Patsy >If that was the case I would still be with my ex-husband now. I would rather jump off the nearest bridge.< That was me. |
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30 Nov 10 - 08:40 AM (#3043508) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: bubblyrat I can only say that, in my experience, the answer to the thread title is (or rather was) , yes . Certainly,those members of "The Oldest Profession" with whom I had any dealings in Hong Kong, Singapore,Edinburgh and Plymouth, all appeared to be quite happy with their chosen life-style, were not,as far as I was aware ,drug-addled single mothers,and showed no signs of having been coerced,threatened,or mis-treated in any way. Indeed,they were pleasantly "normal" in many ways ; the "proprietress" at the establishment in Danube Street, Edinburgh, was charming,polite,and courteous, as were her "staff",who were,frankly,delightful,and the ladies in Hong Kong were utterly charming too (and beautiful !). Why did I do it ?? Well,in each case I had been at sea for some time,and was a fit,lusty ,20-year-old .So what's your problem, you who referred to "poor sad bastards" ?? Get a life, man !! Mind you,that WAS 1967 ; I think that things were much more laid back (no pun intended) in those days. |
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30 Nov 10 - 09:18 AM (#3043515) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Bobert Is prostitution just sex??? No... I've read that as many as 20% of the older "Johns" don't want the sex at all but just the company of a younger woman... That's what I've read... I donno??? B~ |
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30 Nov 10 - 10:13 AM (#3043546) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: GUEST,Patsy Times are changing though with the growth (no pun intended) of male escorts. From a male point of view is it just sex or money with them? I would be really interested to know, not personally for me of course. |
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30 Nov 10 - 11:01 AM (#3043576) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: GUEST Patsy: "...The traditional price of sex for a man is lifelong marriage, i.e. feeding the woman even when she is no longer attractive...."describing not my own idea about relationships, of course, but a traditional concept which is deeply rooted in the subconsciousness of many societies. It may even be in our genes. If we fail to realize that, we may be trapped to use invalid arguments, and worse, achieve effects we did not want. Bobert et al.: Please note that the title of this thread is shortened, I think it was meant like: Are those who publicly oppose prostitution actually against sex? |
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30 Nov 10 - 11:01 AM (#3043577) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: GUEST,Grishka (That was of course me, Grishka) |
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30 Nov 10 - 12:20 PM (#3043619) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Bobert Thanks, GUEST... And, no... I like sex but then again I'm for decriminalizing prostitution... For the most part, it is a victimless crime... B~ |
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30 Nov 10 - 03:40 PM (#3043768) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Slag As one of those crazy rightwing Christians, I'll tell you what I'm against: The exploitation of my fellow human beings any time, any place anywhere, be it economic, physical abuse, sexual abuse, slavery or any such. I think, I would hope that this is fairly consistent with the views held by most who are conservative or liberal Christians; Christian in more than just name. As for prostitution, at it's best, it is a crime against self. It reduces the act to meaninglessness, satisfying an animal urge. It can undermine family stability, self-esteem and it opens one to deadly diseases that are transmitted in intercourse, to name just a few objections. At the same time, I understand the human need for contact and for some, it would seem, there is no other recourse. I would condemn no one but encourage higher goals for one's self. |
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30 Nov 10 - 05:20 PM (#3043856) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: akenaton Are those who publicly oppose prostitution actually against sex? Sex is suppose to be pleasurable to both participants. I dont suppose the young girls who find themselves forced by addiction to have sex with anonymous men derive much pleasure or emotional contact from the experience. To me, the act seems more akin to rape.....and none of us are in favour of that A credible drugs rehabilitation regime would be preferable to subjecting young women (and young men)to degradation and life threatening situations |
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30 Nov 10 - 05:56 PM (#3043878) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: olddude Slag nailed it hands down. |
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30 Nov 10 - 06:53 PM (#3043908) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: GUEST,Grishka akenaton, you are mixing arguments exactly in the way I described, which may get you into difficulty if someone takes the trouble to dispute with you. And, as I wrote, if politicians take your cues, they may cause effects you didn't really want. Slag's seems to profess being against extramarital sex under any circumstances, a position easier to defend in theory. In practice his two statements may prove contradictory, i.e. priorities and compromises are necessary. "Right wing" policies are often associated with being more concerned about inhibiting extramarital sex than exploitation (which may thrive in illegal or stigmatized situations). |
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30 Nov 10 - 06:58 PM (#3043913) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: gnu FWIW, ditto Slag. Sums it up, really. Just thought I'd "vote". gnightgnu. |
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30 Nov 10 - 07:14 PM (#3043921) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: olddude I didn't read that at all into anything slag said ... please re-read his statement on the specific question this thread was about |
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30 Nov 10 - 07:32 PM (#3043932) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Bill D Rich Texan to girl in bar: "Say...would you be interested in being my companion for a week in Acapulco with $10,000 cash added for your personal expenses?" Girl looks him over and thinks for a minute...: "Hmmm...yeah, I'd be interested in that deal!" Rich Texan: "Well, honey.... what about a quickie in the alley for $25?" Girl: "What? Are you crazy? What do you think I am?" Texan: "Honey, we've settled that....we're just haggling over price!" |
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30 Nov 10 - 07:57 PM (#3043945) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: GUEST,Grishka olddude 30 Nov 10 - 07:14 PM, you are probably referring to my statement of 30 Nov 10 - 06:53 PM (would be a good idea to mention my nick). Well, I took the clue from Slag's undermine family stability and his self-characterization as a rightwing Christian, but maybe you're right and his position isn't that easy to defend either. |
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30 Nov 10 - 08:13 PM (#3043949) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: olddude Oh no offense taken Girshka I am sure :-). I think Slag is just like me in that regard. I don't judge others either ... I can only try and keep myself on track and sometimes it is a full time job LOL ... |
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30 Nov 10 - 08:54 PM (#3043962) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Bobert No matter... Reality is that prostitution has been with us for thousands of years and it will continue so do we stick our heads in the sand and go, "horrors" and continue to prosecute people for which, in 99% of the cases, there is no victim or do we accept reality and get it out of the back rooms... And get it somewhat regulated so that the "product" will be safer for all involved... I mean, it's easy to sit back in the comfort of one's home and pas judgment... The real world ain't our homes... It's on then street... If we are truly compassionate, Christian or not, we accept reality and try to make people psychologically and physically safer and in a better place... Decriminalize prostitution and all victimless crimes!!! B~ |
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01 Dec 10 - 08:09 AM (#3044078) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Slag Thanks OD. No, I can understand being so lonely that a little human contact bought and paid for beats sticking a gun in your mouth, I suppose but paying someone to say "I love you, I love you" while going through the motions seems to me, even sadder yet. To reach out for real human contact is the beginning of human understanding and self-worth. You are never going to get that from an erzat relationship of one hour or less. The other extreem is being young and dumb and full of cum. That's just playing with fire IMO. The odds are not in your favor. And then when young studdly decides to settle down what images come to mind? What turns him on? Potentially big relation problems on the horizon (onamonpia, pun not intended). Again, who am I to judge anyone about such a thing? I can't. I just see it as opening yourself up to a lot of hurt and harm. If you respect yourself, if your aims are high, I have to believe that you will treat the ladies with all due respect and high esteem. If you aim low you'll hit your target every time but you sure wont win any prizes. |
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01 Dec 10 - 08:50 AM (#3044100) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Bobert That's the point, Slag... We do force people to "aim low" with prohibition... We take what could be just a normal transaction and turn it into something illegal... In making it illegal then we have the stigmas that go with it and next thing ya' know we have a culture of very indignant people sittin' in judgment and we have further degraded that "normal transaction" into something that is now immoral or dirty or worse... I mean, lets get real here... We have folks who think it is perfectly okay to drop bombs on folks, to bully and teach their kids to bully folks, to hide income away from tax collectors in the Camen Islands, to kill doctors, etc. and all of that is just mainstream accepted behaviors that when folks are caught there isn't this "Eww-la-la" crap but let two adults engage in sex where money comes into play and it's, "Horrors"??? Beam me up, Scotty... B~ |
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01 Dec 10 - 11:14 AM (#3044179) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: akenaton This issue seems to be viewed exclusively from the male point of view, when the victims of prostitution are nearly always women. The effect on the self esteem of any woman who practices prostitution, for any reason, must be incalcuable. Men can exist without a partner, if they are incapable of being part of a relationship, there is always masturbation. I'm amazed the Mudcat women have listened to this shit with little protest. |
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01 Dec 10 - 11:26 AM (#3044190) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: akenaton I've never used a prostitute in my life, tho' I've had offers from various poor souls....I've always spoken kindly to these women and given them something to help them in money. I have always felt sorry for the women,being forced to debase themselves to a stranger,for god knows what reason......certainly not the "human need for contact" I wonder how many here who view prostitution as just a job, actually make use of the service provided......very few I'm sure. |
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01 Dec 10 - 11:38 AM (#3044200) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: GUEST,999 `Men can exist without a partner, if they are incapable of being part of a relationship, there is always masturbation.` The same can be said of women. Should also be noted that there are male prostitutes. That said, the second oldest profession in the world certainly has dangers. I think it should be legalized and controlled--thereby taking it away from gangs and OC. IMO and FWIW. |
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01 Dec 10 - 11:55 AM (#3044213) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: akenaton Yes I agree 999 but I think we should try, as much as possible, to make sure women and young men are never in a position where they are forced to sell themselves We are really quite an inhumane society under the skin. |
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01 Dec 10 - 11:57 AM (#3044216) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: GUEST,999 I could not agree with you more, Ake. (PS Message me under my old name and send me your e-mail adress, OK. Have an mp3 to send you.) |
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02 Dec 10 - 12:40 AM (#3044632) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Slag Yes Bobert. You make several good points but listing other "wrongs" doesn't justify anything. It merely creates a list. It would be interesting to hear more from the women folk but to label a serious (for the most part) discussion as shit because of the absence of feminine input is a blanket dismisal of all the foregoing. Not logical unless you are just using the generic term. If so, my apologies. I would be willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that most who enter this "profession" are forced into it one way or another. That's the initial resentment. No little girl ever says "I'm gonna grow up to be a whore!" and we would probably all be amazed at how many boys and young men are forced into this "profession" (slavery in my book). Lower than low are the leeches who live of the degradation of these folks. These are the ones who need to be charged with the crime. Society OUGHT to address the issues, both individually and corporately, that tend to force folks into this life and bring the hammer of justice down on the scum who suck off the wages of the prostitute. |
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02 Dec 10 - 03:05 AM (#3044671) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: GUEST,Patsy I wonder if society had been more liberal thinking instead of having Victorian double standards perhaps there might not have been such a need for prostitutes. Is it possible because of the Victorian taboos about sex it could have contributed to men sneaking off to seek prostitutes and then taking the moral high ground about it just to show a respectable face? |
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02 Dec 10 - 04:18 AM (#3044700) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Monique One, two, three, four and a deeper insight No further comment... |
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02 Dec 10 - 06:17 AM (#3044756) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: InOBU I run a small museum in New York City, the Museum of the American Gangster. Perhaps the main theme of our museum can speak to this issue. In many Nations, we are caught between two concepts which are core to most western national political identities. We are trapped between our moral certainty and the ideal of liberty. In looking at how organised crime became what it is today, in the USA, many start with Prohibition, we do not. We begin with the Underground Railroad. Perhaps it is because, as many of you here know, I am a Quaker, but it is a perfect model for what is wrong with criminalisation and its repercussions. For decades Quakers and other social reformers and members of some other Utopian religions broke Federal law for their belief in liberty. Now that is a crime most would like to think they would have committed in those days. In fact, few, even few Quakers did break the laws against helping free our sisters and brothers in bondage. Those few who did, immediately upon winning the abolition of slavery, started both the Women's movement and the Temperance movement. Many were shocked when Prohibition led to extreme violence on both sides, a government acting on ideals of moral certainty mandating that industrial alcohol must contain deadly levels of poison, and the machine gunning of un-armed rum runners. As the pendulum of American history swung towards moral certainty we came very close to the pole of totalitarianism, when 10,000 Americans were poisoned and died from a Federal policy. On the other side of the equation the law breaking for liberty swung further and further towards the pole of anarchy with the introduction of the Thompson sub machine gun to that side of the pendulum swing. So, in the face of laws of moral certainty, and the struggle for liberty, women in the sex industry find themselves without power, pulled between the anarchy of crime and the oppression of laws of moral certainty. Without the balance of worker's rights and respect for marginalized communities' right to liberty, the first victims will be disempowered women - those who are drug addicted and lost. That seems to me to be the story here... AND NOW a word from our sponsor. When in NYC drop by the Museum of the American Gangster, 80 Saint Marks Place museumoftheamericangangster.org ... you will be challenged to think while having a grand old time. All the best Lorcan (InOBU) Otway |
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02 Dec 10 - 07:20 AM (#3044798) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Bobert Exactly, Lorcan... Take the "moral certainty" out, mix in a little of that "liberty" and next thing ya' know we have a new way at looking at things... BTW, ya'll... Yeah, if a woman is being forced into prostitution then there really isn't all that much "liberty" involved... That is a bad deal... But not all woman are "forced" into prostitution... I have known a couple of prostitutes (not that way) who were not at all forced into anything at all... Both were well educated and not what alot of folsa have in their minds as being the stereotypical "hooker"... B~ |
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02 Dec 10 - 11:09 AM (#3044956) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: akenaton Oh but there is a stereotypical hooker Bobert. and if an addict cat get their fix, or a substitute, that are forced to sell whatever they have.....I've seen it first hand. |
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02 Dec 10 - 01:04 PM (#3045037) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: GUEST,Doc John ... of forced to steal whatever the can and however they can |
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02 Dec 10 - 03:35 PM (#3045156) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: GUEST,Grishka Most people wouldn't do what they are doing if they didn't need the money. Even musicians, "... they smile when they are low." Although we all know about exploitation and unfair treatment, we may have difficulties to define it precisely. Karl Marx and many others failed. As I wrote, it must be fought; best ideas win. Prostitutes, whether feeling bad or not, will often try to hide their profession because they fear to be scolded by Philistines, or pitied, or missionized. |
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02 Dec 10 - 05:12 PM (#3045206) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Bobert The assumption that all prostitutes are forced into it is a major fallacy... |
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03 Dec 10 - 01:00 AM (#3045382) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Is Prostitution Just Sex? No, it's about MONEY! GfS |
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03 Dec 10 - 04:52 AM (#3045427) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Slag Yup Monique, that does just about says it all. So much for the "soiled dove with the heart of gold" theory. Bobert, I expect you didn't look at the links Monique posted. The persons you described sound like the bottom of the barrel to me. They didn't have enough dignity and self respect nor imagination to find some other way to finance whatever it was they were finanacing? They didn't think enough of their customers they endangered? Their families or at least future families? To go willingly into a situation which others are forced into under the most evil circumstances is just about beyond comprehension. Nonetheless, ya pays your money and you makes your choices or in this case you makes your choices and then they pays the money. Either way, I find it sad for thoses whose lives were so destroyed that they were trapped or sold into it and disgusting for those who made it a choice of freewill. |
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03 Dec 10 - 08:19 AM (#3045502) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Bobert Yes, Slag, we are in 100% agreement on that... It's kinda like the kid who get's busted for pot and looses his college scholarship and ends up workin' at the Walmart or worse... There are way too many folks being exploited and many times it's our laws that are fostering that exploitation... It's time to rethink just how many things that don't hurt anyone we want to prohibit... The prohibition in itself creates alot of the pain and suffering... Not to mention that it is costly (on many levels) to enforce them... Take prostitution... If it were legal and prostitutes were able to get a license, advertise, have federal tax I.D. numbers, etc. then they wouldn't have to walk the streets or be dependent on pimps... I mmean, this would elevate this activity to a level of respectability and safety for all involved... I mean, this is all about left-over Victorian values... The problem I have with Vistorian values is that those preachin' um' are the ones "gettin' caught in the motel room doing what they said not to do"... Too many examples out there to get into 'um all... B~ |
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03 Dec 10 - 01:17 PM (#3045684) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: MGM·Lion "...traditional price of sex for a man is lifelong marriage, i.e. feeding the woman even when she is no longer attractive...." What a thoroughly unpleasant, and disturbing, comment. ==== ==== I agree Lizzie. There used to be a "joke" when I was young which ran "Marriage is the price men pay for sexual intercourse. Sexual intercourse is the price women pay for marriage." ~ But I never found it very funny, even back in my teens in the 40-50s. I wonder if it still has any currency? ~Michael~ |
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03 Dec 10 - 02:32 PM (#3045723) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: gnu I did not pay that woman. |
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03 Dec 10 - 03:09 PM (#3045745) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: akenaton Respectability.....Get a grip Bob, prostitution will never be respectable.....Women or young men who practice it, give a buy one get one free deal...when they sell their sex, they throw in their soul. To pretend that legalisation equates to respectability is a cop out. Legalisation would simply be a device to improve health issues AND of course to allow the "oldest profession" to be taxable. |
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03 Dec 10 - 03:33 PM (#3045760) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Little Hawk It's legal in some parts of Nevada. I'm no big fan of Nevada...it's a pretty corrupt state...but I didn't notice that the legalized prostitution was causing any notable problems when I was there. Actually, I didn't notice it at all...I had my mind on other things at the time. I have noticed prostitutes various times in Toronto, roaming about looking for customers. They usually had a rather pathetic or desperate or just plain "hard" look. I think they'd be a lot safer if it was legalized...and well regulated...as it is in Amsterdam, for example. |
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03 Dec 10 - 03:55 PM (#3045770) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Stringsinger No, it's exploitation of women. |
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03 Dec 10 - 04:24 PM (#3045785) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Slag Carthage, Rome, Greece, Persia, Israel (the former) and many other civilizations all had some form of legalized and/or socially accpetable prostitution and for the most part it tended to debase the societies and undermine families on which is the rock solid foundation of EVERY society. |
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03 Dec 10 - 04:25 PM (#3045786) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: akenaton Yes I think so Frank. We complain when we have to sell our lives to survive...our strength, our wit, our brains...I suppose we are all exploited by capital.....But for anyone, especially a woman, to be forced into a position where she feels she must sell what defines womanhood and motherhood, to a stranger who sees her only as a slab of meat, is doubly disgusting. |
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03 Dec 10 - 04:38 PM (#3045796) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Bill D It **ought** to be a victimless non-crime, and be legal and controlled-- but it usually don't work out that way because 'people'...mostly men, but some of the women, seem to have a need to treat it as sin & degradation. I don't really expect that to change soon. |
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03 Dec 10 - 04:52 PM (#3045811) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: akenaton You dont think it is degrading Bill? |
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03 Dec 10 - 04:56 PM (#3045816) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: gnu Degrading? You are degrading prostitutes with that question. |
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03 Dec 10 - 05:53 PM (#3045844) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: akenaton Slavery is degrading....prostitution is degrading. The practice....not the people.. |
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03 Dec 10 - 05:53 PM (#3045846) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Little Hawk I agree that it debases the society and tends to debase family life, gentlemen... However, I don't think we can put this particular genie back in the bottle by using the law to persecute people who willingly and of their own free will buy and sell sex. The society, you see, is already deeply debased and disturbed in the first place when people turn to selling their bodies. What you need to do is reform all of society, not just attack a single symptom of the general debasement. And how do you reform all of society? Not by repression of people. You reform it by protecting people's freedoms and ensuring that they ALL have good job opportunities, a good wage, a good place to live, an honest police force, an honest government, equal education opportunities for all, social justice for all, poverty for none. |
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03 Dec 10 - 06:20 PM (#3045860) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Bobert What, legalizing prostitution will "debase" the family??? Exactly what family are you talkin' about, Slag??? I mean, look around you... The family has been going down-hill for a long time now... Now kids don't even want to get married... Marriage is out... We have more single parent households then any time in history... I mean, lets get real here... Ain't nuthin' new... I spent the first half my working life workin' in the community, mostly as a socail worker... The family was on life support then and it's worse now... And guess what... Prostitution didn't cause that... If anything, legalization would help the family... Huh??? That's right... It would help the family... The prosecution of prostitution only creates strife and economic and emotional suffering... The "John" is found out, the wife leaves him and there goes another family down the drain... The prostitute now has work harder to pay the attorney and fines... I mean, prosecution is beyond vengeful (unChristian, BTW) but also bad policy... B~ |
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03 Dec 10 - 06:46 PM (#3045877) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Slag So, with your logic, Bobert, because everything seems to be going downhill, let 'er go?!! Speed up the process?!! People are always gonna steal so what the hell, let 'em steal?!! Some family relations are in the dumper so never mind addressing one of the agents of this degeneracy?!! Simply amazing. And I AM addressing the problem hear and now. I am arguing for the family and all the good it stands for. The battle is won in the hearts and minds of those who will listen, those who will be persuaded that the good things in and of this world should triumph over the bad. Destruction of the soul, of families, of society is BAD. BAD, Bobert. Support your local fammilies. Suppot your immediate family. Inform them of the neccessity of maitaining a loving relationship and of honoring one another. Resist the evil of betrayal to that commitment. It works. Just change your thinking on the matter. |
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03 Dec 10 - 06:59 PM (#3045884) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Bill D "You dont think it is degrading Bill?" No, I don't think it's automatically degrading. I am sure that everyday someone trades sex for money and everyone has fun and no one is unhappy. Sadly, that's not not the usual way, and the 'degrading' part was already in someone's head before any offer of sex OR money. " .prostitution is degrading." is a slogan...a mindset... not a universal truth. |
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03 Dec 10 - 07:18 PM (#3045891) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: gnu ake... "Slavery is degrading....prostitution is degrading. The practice....not the people.. " Ever the ultimate wind-em-up-for-the-fun-of-it-ache. That was a good try, especially attempting to link and equate prostitution to slavery, but still bullshit. As I know this will degrade even further into a non-ending "debate", I shall say gnightgnu and, as usual, have fun with it. |
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03 Dec 10 - 07:43 PM (#3045909) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Bobert I didn't say any of those things, Slag... What I said is that prosecution is only hurting people on both sides... The rest of yer post is all imagination of what you wished I'd said, but didn't... You want to talk about the disintegration of the family, which is a terrible thing, then start a thread on it but if yer gonna blame it on prostitution then seein' that prostitution has been with us for a long, long time then yer gonna have to explain how families seemed to do well several decades ago with it... B~ |
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03 Dec 10 - 08:09 PM (#3045916) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Bill D: ""You dont think it is degrading Bill?" No, I don't think it's automatically degrading. I am sure that everyday someone trades sex for money and everyone has fun and no one is unhappy. Sadly, that's not not the usual way, and the 'degrading' part was already in someone's head before any offer of sex OR money." Good, then I hope you don't mind if I wish your daughter all the successes in such a venture! You should be proud...shouldn't you?? GfS |
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03 Dec 10 - 08:24 PM (#3045925) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Bill D Does the phrase "leading question" ring any bells? Why, I have even stopped beating my wife! I have no daughters, but somewhere SOMEONE'S daughter today has done as I said, and offered herself for some sort of remuneration. (Did you read the old joke I posted back up ↑ there?) Is accepting a weekend & cash from a rich guy any different from a 'bang for a buck'? If I had a daughter, I'd certainly HOPE she could do better....once she's 18, it's kinda out of my control. I repeat... it is not common that trading sex for cash or goods is happy & fair and reasonable....but it is not totally rare, either. I am not promoting prostitution....I am just being a realist. |
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03 Dec 10 - 10:00 PM (#3045977) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Bobert Ditto, Bill... In defending decriminalization and an ending to prohibition I am not advocating either side of the transaction... But that tiny bit of libertarian in me says, "As long as folks ain't hurtin' each other then live and let live"... I mean, seems archaic, Victorian values have given us way too many laws that regulate behaviors of folks where no one is harmed in anyway??? I mean, sheet fire, ya'll... Here we got this deficit and we're spending, what, hundred billion a year or so (plus the aftereffects of bein' in the joint) for messin' with these folks??? This is some very messed up thinking... And bad policy... B~ |
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04 Dec 10 - 05:47 AM (#3046084) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: akenaton We should really be concentrating on constructing a society where there is no longer any need for women to sell their bodies to strangers.....as someone said earlier, it is "Capitalism in the raw" Most protitution is carried out to finance a drug habit, an unsustainable lifestyle, or to keep an abusive partner. It should not be beyond the capabilities of a CARING society to over come these problems. And people here should never imply that others should just be left to injure themselves in mind and body, by practicing behaviours which are dangerous, degrading, or deadly. |
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04 Dec 10 - 06:39 AM (#3046106) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Slag No Bobert, I didn't say a thing about prosecution. Said that If anything is going to really be done about it we need to change folks' attitudes and hearts about the issue. That is the only way it can be dealt with effectively. I couldn't agree with you more. The penal system only serves to create dedicated criminals, helps to destroy families and cause resentment in the case of prostitution and some other low level crimes and misdemeanors. |
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04 Dec 10 - 06:42 AM (#3046108) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Bobert "Most prostitution is carried out to finance a drug habit"??? Source, por favor??? As for CARING... If we truly cared we would accept the fact that prostitution has been with us thousands of years and will be with us thousands more... Once we accept ***reality*** then, and only then, can we move to policies that are "CARING" and away from those that are very much not... B~ |
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04 Dec 10 - 06:58 AM (#3046123) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: GUEST,mauvepink I have just taken a quick 20 minute run through the thread so if I have missed any essential things do forgive me. In essence if a woman or man decides to sell something they have, be it manual or mental, as a resource that is required and wanted, then that 'talent' has an intrinsic value and should be paid for fairly. Most of us who are fortunate to have a job or are employed do that all the time. If that 'talent' involves something sexual there is no reason why it should be made illegal or be debased as long as the person who is doing the work is not being exploited or forced to do it. For me the illegality comes from women or men being forced to have to do something they would not by others who then live off them. Even this has a certain moral quality to it. Bosses and shareholders inevitably earn their livings and bonuses from the profits they get by others working for them. People loving off other people. Thankfully in most good economies there are now laws to protect those workers and see to it they are not being exploited and used in an unfair way. This does not stop sweatshops nor does it stop women potentially being paid less than her male colleague for the same job. But it is mostly legalised and done with lots more safety and fairness in mind than it used to be. The biggest user of people who work is some industries are the consumers themselves. We all want things cheaper and labour costs are a big part of the price of anything. Workers get exploited very often by our own need to get things cheaper. Yet we still seem to accept that on a far different scale than when sex is put into the equation as a commodity to be paid for or sold. In short. Prostitution is likely to be more about money than anything else BUT what makes it such a hot topic for debate is that many see it as very different from any other item for sale. What needs to be done is for prostitutes to be given the same protection and rights as all other workers. They should be respected for the services they provide. They should get good health plans and be allowed to pay their taxes. They should not be judged and looked down upon like some second class citizen. Those that would exploit and force them to do what they do are the ones in the wrong. As for the ones who do it for drugs and drink then the same laws can apply to them as apply to all other jobs. You cannot turn in if you are on drugs or drunk. The law is already there for all. The whole way that most of society looks at prostitutes and sex workers is, for me, wrong. They are not a subspecies and never should be looked at or treated as that. They should be embraced as all other workers in society. It is very obvious their services are required and needed. It is not prostitutes or prostitution that is wrong per se. It the way that society allows them to be treated and exploited that seems to be wrong. As in most things, the minute sex enters the fray then moral judgements loom large and people look to the prostitute/sex worker as being the cause of some decline in our society. It's not their fault. They are providing a service that is obviously much needed. I will not judge them for that no more than I would anyone else who goes out and does an honest job Just some thoughts on my 'take' on the subject. mp |
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04 Dec 10 - 07:46 AM (#3046147) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Bobert Exactly, mp... |
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04 Dec 10 - 02:31 PM (#3046351) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: akenaton MP...Do you think even a minute percentage of prostitutes get any job satisfaction from their "work"? If You do, you are more naive than even I thought you were.I can assure you the young ladies I have spoken to dont believe they are performing a "useful service"....their self esteem is nil, they take no part in normal society, and have nothing but hatred for those who use them. Society has failed these children....dont even try to excuse the abuse.... "because they chose it". |
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04 Dec 10 - 02:39 PM (#3046356) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: akenaton Street prostitutes bet their lives on every "trick", either through STD's or having their throat cut by a maniac.......Does that seem like just another job of work to you? To me it seems a symptom of extreme desperation.....these kids need help from society, not further pain and anguish. |
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04 Dec 10 - 02:59 PM (#3046367) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: akenaton FROM NATIONAL CRIMINAL JUSTICE REGISTER>>>>USA Abstract: TO DETERMINE WHETHER DRUG USE IS UNCOMMONLY PREVALENT AMONG PROSTITUTES, OR WHETHER THE ASSUMPTION OF AN ASSOCIATION BETWEEN PROSTITUTION AND DRUG USE IS MERELY PART OF PUBLIC PREJUDICE AGAINST PROSTITUTES, INTERVIEWS WERE CONDUCTED WITH PROSTITUTES AND LAW ENFORCEMENT PERSONNEL. MOST OF THE FINDINGS CAME FROM RESPONSES TO QUESTIONNAIRES AND CONVERSATION WITH 60 PROSTITUTES CONTACTED THROUGH THE NEW YORK STATE OFFICE OF DRUG ABUSE SERVICES, PROGRAMS FOR EX-OFFENDERS, THE PRIVATE ORGANIZATIONS OF COYOTE AND PUMA, AND THROUGH REFERRALS. ALL 60 SUBJECTS REPORTED SOME FORM OF DRUG USE, WITH 72 PERCENT HAVING USED HEROIN, 93 PERCENT HAVING USED MARIJUANA, AND 83 PERCENT HAVING USED COCAINE. DESPITE POSSIBLE BIAS IN THE DATA ATTRIBUTABLE TO THE RESEARCHER'S GENDER AND STATUS, THE DATA APPEAR ACCURATE AS SELF-REPORTS FROM THE RESEARCH SUBJECTS WHO HAD NOTHING TO GAIN BY LYING. AN EXTENSIVE SURVEY OF THE LITERATURE INDICATES THAT THE REPORTS OF THE SUBJECTS DO NOT DIFFER GREATLY FROM PATTERNS OF BEHAVIOR REPORTED BY OTHER PROGRAMS. EXAMINATION OF DATA INDICATES THAT WOMEN ON THE HIGHER PAID LEVELS OF PROSTITUTION ARE LIKELY TO PERCEIVE THEIR WORK AS AN OCCUPATION OR A BUSINESS WHILE LOWER-LEVEL PROSTITUTES WHO SUPPORT DRUG HABITS OR PIMPS TEND NOT TO HAVE THE HIGHER DEGREE OF COMMITMENT. DEMOGRAPHIC ANALYSES INDICATE THAT REGULAR DRUG USE IS LESS COMMON AMONG THE HIGHER-PAID PROSTITUTES THAN AMONG THE LOWER-PAID GROUP. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT WOMEN ARE COERCED INTO PROSTITUTION BY THIRD PARTIES USING DRUGS TO 'ENSLAVE' WOMEN. HOWEVER, WOMEN WHO ARE ADDICTS AND ARE MORE LIKELY TO ENCOUNTER THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM MAY BECOME PROSTITUTES. SUBJECTS GENERALLY AGREED THAT DRUG USE WAS OPPOSED BY PIMPS AND MADAMS, AND THAT ADDICTION PRECLUDED THE POSSIBILITY OF WORKING AS A CALL GIRL. DRUG USE AND POSSESSION IS FELT TO DETER THE ENTRY TO BETTER OCCUPATIONAL LEVELS, INVOKE POLICE HARASSMENT, AND DETRACT FROM THE PROSTITUTES' 'PROFESSIONALISM.' TABULAR DATA AND EXTENSIVE BIBLIOGRAPHIC REFERENCES ARE PROVIDED |
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04 Dec 10 - 03:30 PM (#3046388) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Bobert That, Ake, is what is referred to as as methodology... There is nothin' in that report that represents a cross section of the general population because if you'll look at it the findings were from the New York Drug Abuse Service where, duhhhh, you might find a large percentage of clients with, ahhhhhh, drug problems??? Guess again... B;~) |
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04 Dec 10 - 03:32 PM (#3046389) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Bobert Make that, "bad methodology"... |
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04 Dec 10 - 03:42 PM (#3046393) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: akenaton INTRODUCTION Previous research on women who engaged in prostitution has found a high rate of drug abuse among this population (Kuhns, Heide, & Silverman, 1992; El-Bassel et al., 1997; Nadon, Koverola, & Schludermann, 1998; Potterat, Rothenberg, Muth, Darrow, & Phillips-Plummer, 1998). Among the reasons for women entering into prostitution, drug addiction itself is one of the main explanations given by researchers (Weeks, Grier, Romero-Daza, & Puglisi- Vasquez, 1998; Kuhns, et al; Gossop, Powis, Griffiths, & Strang, 1994). Prostitution may be the only means with which to finance a drug habit |
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04 Dec 10 - 03:51 PM (#3046395) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: akenaton Bobert, There was a survey done in the city of Glasgow some years ago concerning prostitution/drug addiction, every prostitute questioned, had a history of drug abuse..many had also a history of sex and physical abuse from men, often family members. |
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04 Dec 10 - 03:55 PM (#3046399) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Slag Nice post akenaton. Well, Bobert, I do see your point and it is a cultural distinction. There have been times when the profession has been honored and even worshipped (eg. the "Kama" Sutras). The Philistines would break a baby's hymen on a stone phallus in the temple as a dedication to their baal and temple prostitution was common. But then again, so was human sacrifice but it wasn't illegal! What I tried to get across above is that historically, societies where prostitution was condoned or at least more tolerated, were generally more corrupt in other ways. Human dignity was not a high priority nor was human life highly valued. The Judeo-Christian standard is certainly not without its flaws and the double standard and hypocracy are not the least. The standard itself, however, seeks to elevate the worth and worthiness of the human being and in so doing has advanced human civilization. That's my take and I already know the counter arguments by heart. They are well represented on some of the other current threads so we don't really need to get off into that. It is just that the ideal is uplifting and a pox on those who corrupt the ideals to justify war, murder and the like. There! That's said. I suppose it comes down to how a society says that something is acceptable or not. Do we punish? Brand? Shun? Seek to understand and help? All of the above and others? Anarchy and revolution share the element of chaos to accomplish their ends but it always results in the establishment or restablishment of some form of order which only serves to return us to the original situation. If anarchy prevails we are returned to the rules of animal behavior but those rules must be obeyed so why not aim higher? Our society (US) has sought to give us an orderly way to accomplish change without a descent into chaos: thorugh open and vigorous debate, election, representation, petition and proposition. Again, not without flaws but the best system yet imagined (IMHO). Education and non-judgmental assistance (including protection services, relocation and the like for those who want to escape abusive situations) are steps in the right direction. The vast majority of Americans are very caring people and much of what I have just mentioned is carried on in communities across the nation by volunteers. That's a mark of a good society, caring and doing something about it. |
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04 Dec 10 - 04:44 PM (#3046435) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity As to underline the TRUTH posted by Slag, and Akenaton, and the hypocrisy spouted by the double standard of 'liberals', who display they are severely mentally 'challenged', I thought you liberals were AGAINST capitalism!...I would think that people who charged to sell people sex, or selling 'highs', and/or other 'pleasures', which can normally be provided for free, (if they had their shit together), were the epitome and height of capitalism at its worse....along with pay toilets!..I think your phoniness and double standard hypocrisy is blatantly out there, and so obvious that any one can 'behold' it...and you hold onto your utterly lame positions, with no shame. Says a lot about what liberals hold as values!...and how two faced they are. Sorry, but that's the way it shakes down! BTW, does your favorite hooker pay taxes, to contribute to the welfare and food stamp rolls?? This tells all, better than anything anyone could have done to point out your own bullshit! Time to reconsider, don't you think? GfS |
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04 Dec 10 - 04:58 PM (#3046449) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Stringsinger akenaton, I think we are on the same page here. The idea that prostitution is fun is a male concept culturally driven by a male-dominated society. The idea behind prostitution is that it cheapens sex by giving it a monetary exchange. I am too much of a romantic to ever want to sell-out something that is what I consider naturally beautiful although it is used as a weapon of manipulation by some. Ancient societies did have Geishas and Hatairas (sp?) in ancient Greece but were these prostitutes in the way that we know them today? Today, prostitution is an exploitive transaction that is affiliated with crime and poverty. Even when it becomes expensive for New York governors, it still has the cache of "illicit" in our society. Even the euphemism "sex worker" doesn't seem to break the implication. Societal codes of ethics serve an important function and putting sex on a money basis diminishes these ethics by objectifying women and mechanizing sex. I refer the proponents of prostitution to Ira Levin's "Stepford Wives". |
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04 Dec 10 - 04:59 PM (#3046450) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: GUEST,mauvepink akenaton... I was not excusing any abuse. Even in law one cannot consent to abuse. And there are millions of people in jobs they hate. I was merely trying to balance the actual root thing around prostitution and I think I certainly made adequate point about abuse and exploitation never being acceptable. Lots of prostitution does not take part on the streets and some women have the right to choose what they wish to do with their own bodies. I am wholeheartedly against exploitation and abuse. But if someone decides they want to do the job as a job then society should look down on them in any way. I suspect that many feel no esteem because they have been robbed of it by the way they are looked upon by most. I was not - AM NOT - making a case for women to be made to do sexual acts free or for payment. Merely that if a woman chooses to do something (or man for that matter) that does not sit right with the moralists then they should not be condemend for it mp |
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04 Dec 10 - 05:19 PM (#3046464) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Bobert First of all, I am clueless as to who GfinS's rant was aimed at??? Actually, I am clueless as to what she is even talkin' about... Of course, that being said, I fully expect some clever rebuttal about "cluelessness" in general... As for 'liberals"??? I'm not too sure who they are or what they believe... The term has been so corrupted over the years by the folks trying to get into power or stay in power... As for prostitution... Keep it a crime and all you are doing is creating criminals, supporting pimps, endangering alot of people and forcing folks to hide from a prudish, Talibanish, Victorian code of behavior... And the folks who are at the forefront of keeping it a crtime are the ones who are disproportionately caught doin' the stuff they told you not to do... That is 24 carot hypocrisy... (But, Boberdz... Elliot Spitzer got caught...) Okay, so he did... Shall we go down the list of folk on the other side of the political divide who have been caught??? B~ |
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04 Dec 10 - 05:39 PM (#3046477) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: akenaton Bobert I think we may be at cross purposes. I know you are a good person and I have no wish to see the victims of this behaviour punished.....for the prostitutes are the victims, although a few of them may have "chosen" their "lifestyle" I would happily see the men who prey on these women prosecuted, but as Slag, s/singer, GfS and others have said the real answer is to change society so that women would no longer give thought to selling their souls or their pride. |
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04 Dec 10 - 06:27 PM (#3046506) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Little Hawk "the real answer is to change society so that women would no longer give thought to selling their souls or their pride" Exactly! Go after the real foundational problem, not one of the symptoms of the problem. Another answer that goes along with the one above...."change society so that men would no longer give thought to selling their souls or their pride by paying someone money to have sex with them". Seems to me that there's something fundamentally missing in a man's understanding of himself and of other people if he pays money to someone to have sex with him...but that's only my own personal viewpoint on it. I would feel ashamed, disgusted, depressed, and humiliated to have to pay a woman so she would have sex with me. I don't want the mere physical pretence of intimacy with another human being...I want the real thing. I too have pride and a sense of my own value, and I wish to be appreciated by a woman for myself, not for a damn fistful of dollars. |
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04 Dec 10 - 06:49 PM (#3046522) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Bobert Fine, ake, GfinS, Slag, LH, et al... Go out and change society... I put in my 25 years of very intense "change society" time and some... Meanwhile, while we're waitin' on ya'll to do that, why keep punishing people who are either, like ya'll say, are victims or folks who are about to become victims of Victorian hypocrits by busting them??? Ain't mush logic in ya'll's *short term* plan... B~ |
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04 Dec 10 - 06:54 PM (#3046526) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Bill D "...the young ladies I have spoken to dont believe they are performing a "useful service".." Well now... there's a nice survey! I'm sure all Indians walk in single file, because I saw an Indian once, and HE was walking single file. I will try ONCE more to make the point. There are two issues: 1) Should it be legal and regulated as long as everything is fair & consensual? 2) Are there serious problems in society that make much of it degrading, dangerous and enmeshed in drugs & other crime? Why can't both be true? Of COURSE we need to "... be concentrating on constructing a society where there is no longer any need for women to sell their bodies to strangers." But..what if we GET that society or close to it? What if 'strangers' are not involved? What do you call it if there is an 'understanding' that if HE provides dinner & a movie, SHE provides sex? Yeah, there's a difference between that and a cheap hotel and streetwalking...but you & I both can describe situations where it's very hard to draw a line. It should not be necessary or common, but it should not be automatically condemned, because there ARE women who consider their 'special talents' to be salable skills, and some who genuinely DO enjoy the 'job'. If this society were not so hung up on artificial definitions of what 'nice' sex is about, there would BE far less sad situations. |
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04 Dec 10 - 07:01 PM (#3046530) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: akenaton "I will try ONCE more to make the point." Dont bother Bill, you do yourself a disservice. |
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04 Dec 10 - 07:11 PM (#3046539) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Bill D myself? Why is it not a 'disservice' to be wedded to ONE simplistic viewpoint based on personal values while ignoring the real world? Ok...I think I've been as clear as I can. |
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04 Dec 10 - 07:17 PM (#3046541) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: akenaton For a start Bill, no man worthy of the name would expect sex just because he bought a girl a meal.....and if we ever arrive at the sort of society where sex is obtained via contract....then god help us. |
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04 Dec 10 - 07:24 PM (#3046545) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Little Hawk Bobert, I am NOT in favor of busting or harassing prostitutes. I am in favor of setting something up so that they are a lot safer and better protected than they are at present. Just because I don't like the idea of prostitution in itself does not mean that I wish to see the forces of the law go after the prostitutes. I was indicating my own personal preferences...not my wish to see prostitutes arrested and treated as criminals. In my opinion, they are not criminals. Many of them are, in fact, victims OF crime. |
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04 Dec 10 - 07:45 PM (#3046553) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Little Hawk The only point at which I might begin to anticipate (not "expect") sex with someone is normally....after I've gotten to know her well enough that I know I like her, I know I respect her, I know I find her really interesting and appealing, I most DEFINITELY know that I really like her a whole lot!...and I get the feeling she feels much the same about me. Then I may begin to anticipate the possibility of sex. And that takes a fair while to happen, because it normally takes awhile to get that well acquainted with a person, doesn't it? It does not happen while walking down the street, that's for sure. And it has absolutely nothing to do with buying or selling anything. It has to do with establishing levels of trust, intimacy, and mutual respect. And that is why I don't get how any man can feel "okay" about paying someone to have sex with him. This does not mean I wish to have prostitutes busted. It just means I don't wish to become a paying client myself, that's all. |
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04 Dec 10 - 07:49 PM (#3046557) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Bobert We are on the same page, LH... Legalize prostitution first and that will go along way toward changing society... Right now we have too many people being jailed for victimless crimes... That's not what free countries do... That is what the Taliban does... Bill and I, I think, have laid out all the reasons why criminalizing prostitution is not only wrong but counterproductive... Yeah, it can be argued that "Gee, I wish that __________________" but Bill and I are dealing with reality... Not Wishland... BTW, if comments about a "favorite prostitute" we aimed at me, I don't have a favorite prostitute... Might of fact, I have never engaged a prostitute... Okay, I knew a few back when I was workin' at the half-way house in the inner city of Richmond... No, I knew a lot of them... They would come listen to me play guitar sittin' outside on warm summer nights when I was S.O.D. (Staff on Duty) and would be up all night and I'd talk with them (as people, gol danged it)... That gave me my perspective into this entire deal... I mean, it's easy to wring ones hands and pronounce others -- it's always others -- as immoral or evil or bad or this or that...Ain't so easy when you bring it down to real people in a real world... B~ |
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04 Dec 10 - 07:59 PM (#3046564) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Little Hawk Way back when I was a whole lot younger...and still a virgin...and rather troubled about it at the time... I happened to traveling through Nevada. It occurred to me..."prostitution is legal here". Hmmm. For a few seconds the thought passed through my mind..."I could get past this virginity wall I am facing by just going to a prostitute." I thought about it for about half a minute, and realized I just couldn't do it, because it wasn't what I wanted. I wanted to be genuinely loved by someone who cared, not just serviced by someone who didn't care. So there you have it. ...and THAT was exactly why I had to wait until I was 59 years old before finally losing my virginity!!!!!!!!!!!!! Geez. Maybe I made a big mistake there, eh? ;-D |
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04 Dec 10 - 08:06 PM (#3046568) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: akenaton Legalisation would not help the vast majority of prostitutes, most have kids to look after and a habit to service. The last thing these women want is to become a number in the govts books to pay taxes for risking their lives. Legalisation is a salve for our consciences, that we allow women to degrade themselves for money.....if its legal then it must be alright.... OK? |
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04 Dec 10 - 08:10 PM (#3046569) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: akenaton Gosh 59! Hardly worth starting Hawk.....next thing is the creeping "limpdicitus"..:0)) |
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04 Dec 10 - 08:15 PM (#3046571) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: akenaton Catspaw reckons I've been a sufferer for years :0) |
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04 Dec 10 - 08:42 PM (#3046581) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Little Hawk Yeah, well, as you can work out for yourself, Ake, I had a very short window to work with when it came to making up for all that lost time. ;-) And here I am at 62, and pretty much worn out! When I told Chongo about it, he started laughing so hard he almost fell off his chair. Matter of fact, he DID fall off his chair and started rolling around on the floor and shrieking the way chimps do when they lose all control. I thought that was kind of insensitive. When he finally had more or less recovered and stopped laughing, I glared at him and said, "So when did you have sex the first time, smart guy?" "When I was six," he replied casually. "Whadidja think? And I'm 90 years old now, and I'm still ridin' the old hobby horse at least 7 or 8 times a week, and that's just Monday ta Friday. I gotta fight 'em off with a stick on the weekends." What an asshole! I'm going to tell his gal pal Renata about all this boasting of his and then he will be sorry. |
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04 Dec 10 - 10:04 PM (#3046622) Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex? From: Bobert I'm with you LH... Well, at least these days.... Maybe you was just born 59, I donno.. Anyway, if you did then, hey, that's cool... Times I wished that I'd just said "good night"... Been a long time since then and glad ain't part of my life any more... Glad you kept them Vegas thoughts at bey... Had a buddy come home from there in '68 with a bad case... Took more than Penny to knock it out... Jus' funnin'... Now back to our regularly scheduled discussion... B~ |