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07 Dec 10 - 05:35 AM (#3047976) Subject: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: WalkaboutsVerse Yesterday was the feast day of Saint Nicholas (the model for Santa Claus/Father Christmas), but, in my opinion, it's better to involve children in Nativity plays, and teach that Christmas presents derive, rather, from the Magi-like goodwill of friends and family; or in verse - http://walkaboutsverse.webs.com/#224 |
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07 Dec 10 - 06:06 AM (#3047987) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Ah but Santa Clause is derived from more ancient pagan / Shamanic archetypes than Saint Nicholas. As Mark E. Smith once sang The Siberian mushroom Santa was in fact Rasputins brother..., thus does Santa embody the jovial misrule essential to the dark heart of the year upon which Christians placed the birth of the boyo. To be Truly English, WAV, you must desist from this foriegn Christianity farce and get back to the ancient indigenous religion of our fair and Ancient Isle which outs itself each year in the more folkloric associations of the season - the Holly, Ivy, Wassailing, Wren Hunting, Figgy Pudding, Ghost Stories by M R James*, Yule Logs, Mistletoe, Domestic Luiminos, and other such Fiddle-Faddle Stuff up to and including Santa Clause. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7Un87fiduI * A new TV version of Oh Whistle and I'll Come to You coming up with John Hurt - of course the old one with Michael Horden is supreme but it's something to look forward to... |
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07 Dec 10 - 06:08 AM (#3047990) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Make that Michael Hordern - some typos can slip through but to let that one pass would be sacrilege. |
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07 Dec 10 - 07:44 AM (#3048027) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: The Fooles Troupe But there ain't no Sanity Clause! Grouch Marx |
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07 Dec 10 - 08:43 AM (#3048060) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray To be pedantic here (it is Xmas after all) it was Chico who said that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS2khYJZKwA |
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07 Dec 10 - 08:49 AM (#3048066) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray PS - The Magi were a bunch of astrologers bearing richly symbolic offerings whose arrival we don't ordinarily celebrate until Epiphany when we burn the Xmas decorations in a blaze of glory whilst singing our favourite Epiphany carols such as We Three Kings an - er - that's it really. Of course if you want the real flavour of Epiphany you have to go to Mario Lanza for the Definitive Version... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGoOnDvDTUQ I know I was carping on about histrionics a while back, but for every rule there must be at least one glorious exception... |
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07 Dec 10 - 09:34 AM (#3048079) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: mousethief St. Nicholas of Myra was a pretty cool guy, even if pagan elements were blended into his story to make Santy Claws. Anybody who starts a fist-fight at an ecumenical council is pretty cool in my book. :) |
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07 Dec 10 - 11:14 AM (#3048122) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: Mrrzy Ah, yes, killing a wren, very celebratory. One of my favorite Clancy Brothers songs, though... What are the roots of that one? |
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07 Dec 10 - 11:54 AM (#3048146) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: frogprince But how many things can you think of that are at the same time totally indefensible foolishness, and totally harmless fun for little children? On a number of occasions over the years, I've encountered folk who seriously insisted that parents shouldn't go along with the Santa stuff. The point was, if you teach the children to believe in Santa, and in Jesus, then when they catch on to the Santa scam, they won't believe what you taught them about Jesus, either, and then they may spend eternity in the toaster. |
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07 Dec 10 - 12:28 PM (#3048169) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray I think we need WAV back in to enlighten us further. As for Wren Hunting - one theory has its roots going back the notorious Bird Laws of 1807 when the peasantry were forbidden on pain of execution to kill any bird bigger than a wren during the winter months Another relates it to the Great Plague when dead wrens were worn as nosegays to counteract the stench of human death - compared to which a decomposing wren is sweet, though quite pungent. Wrens were hunted in the 1950s so that their feathers might be used to pluck the strings of E. Citterns when said instruments were employed to accompany the singing of Christmas Carols in sweet falsetto, it being also believed that the wren was Christ's Bird - Sweet Jenny Maudlin as they call her in the fields of Northumberland. Always a creature of good omen, to kill one on the Feast o' Stephen is regarded as potently talismanic, though at other times of year it's taboo. As a custom I would say it's harmless fun for kids of all ages - we did it as part of the Comprehensive Folk Arts Curriculum, circa 1971, which stressed the cultural & historical (and traditional) importance of ritual animal sacrifice by way of engaging with both enironment and heritage. That it's no longer taught in schools is Political Correctness Gone Mad. |
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07 Dec 10 - 02:23 PM (#3048229) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: GUEST,Songbob St. Nicholas was also the patron saint of brewers, says my "Forgotten English" day-at-a-time desk calendar. The word (yesterday's) was "Beeregar," which means "sour beer." So St. Nick is Bill Day's favorite saint of all time, I'd say. Bob |
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07 Dec 10 - 05:31 PM (#3048360) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: WalkaboutsVerse "Ah but Santa Clause is derived from more ancient pagan / Shamanic archetypes than Saint Nicholas" (S.)...I think we agree that, partly as a conversion tactic, elements of pre-Christian beliefs and ways were incorporated into the Christianity of many lands - including England (churches located near yews, etc.). So, in the Marx's language, mentioned above, Christianity ain't Christianity - and the best way forward, in my opinion, is to: "Let each Christian nation have it's own Church - Equal, before God, with the others Search." (here). That said, the fairly universal Santa we have now is basically the Coca Cola Santa from the 1930s - all too closely associated with materialsim, I think. |
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07 Dec 10 - 06:41 PM (#3048411) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: Bee-dubya-ell Since a substantial portion of the male Mudcat population, myself included, bear superficial resemblances to Santa Claus (white hair, white beards, somewhat overweight), we absolutely reject the idea of anything 'Anti-Santa Claus'. As a non-Christian bah-humbugger from a disfunctional family, the Christmas season doesn't do a hell of a lot for me. About the only joy I get from the season is when some child mistakes me for Mr. Claus. It's such a pleasure to see the joy in his eyes turn into shear terror when he realizes his mistake and runs screaming in the opposite direction. It's a hell of a lot more fun than murdering songbirds. |
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08 Dec 10 - 05:48 AM (#3048638) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray You can't have Xmas without Santa, WAV - he's integral to the festive duality which is Folkloric on the one hand and Religious on the other, and never the twain, as they say, although on our advent calendar this year the Religious imagery is mixed up with the Folkloric. You see these things as being opposed on account of Folkloric Materialism, but the Materialism is the Common Core of Xmas Cheer which would suffer from the sort regulation he has in mind. How does one police Xmas? No indeed, best celebrate these things as any anthropologist must - so get yourself over to the Metro Centre and bask in the common material glory of it all, thence onto Newcastle, which is always a treat with the Fenwick's Window. Might be worth going out into the villags too to see things done a little simpler... Not for nothing did the early church decide on 25th of December for the birth of their man - not out of any ongoing pagan archetypal bullshit, but for the simple fact that at that time of year the days begin getting lighter, even though in these parts it also marks the beginning of Winter! |
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08 Dec 10 - 02:46 PM (#3049037) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: GUEST,leeneia " It's such a pleasure to see the joy in his eyes turn into shear terror..." BWL, I don't believe you for a moment. I bet when a kid mistakes you for Santa Claus, you smile at him and nod, then go about your business before he figures out his mistake. I saw a little black girl greet 'Santa' in the Chinese restaurant near me, and that is exactly what 'Santa' did. |
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08 Dec 10 - 04:27 PM (#3049110) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: WalkaboutsVerse Dear Bee-dubya-ell: wouldn't you rather a lead role in a mummers play to an armchair role as a Coca Cola Santa?! |
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09 Dec 10 - 06:00 AM (#3049466) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: GUEST,Patsy I know there is because I was Santa's helper once. |
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09 Dec 10 - 06:22 AM (#3049480) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: The Fooles Troupe Bee-dubya-ell You were scared by a Clown as a child too, weren't you .... |
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09 Dec 10 - 11:01 PM (#3050135) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: Donuel How and when does the cruxifiction tie in with St. Nick. Did he deliver presents before the cruxifiction or did he rise to delivery gifts afterwards? Also does the red suit signify blood? |
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10 Dec 10 - 08:04 AM (#3050274) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: GUEST,Patsy What happened was the fairy had another venue to go to so I volunteered to be a puppet with a painted nose and bobbles on my pj's (mainly because I didn't have a tu-tu or a wand) but the little ones believed and loved it. |
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10 Dec 10 - 09:44 AM (#3050330) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: WalkaboutsVerse ...there we have it - hoarse from the Merry-one's mouth! |
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10 Dec 10 - 09:25 PM (#3050723) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: Joe_F The Santa Claus experience, at a guess, is salutary preparation for atheism. "First you learn that there is no Santa Claus; then, that there is no God; and then, that there are no grownups." |
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10 Dec 10 - 11:09 PM (#3050740) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: The Fooles Troupe ... because you have become one ... |
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11 Dec 10 - 10:27 AM (#3050956) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: Dave MacKenzie I did once get mistaken for "Ho-Ho-Ho" (personally I'd have preferred "HO-HO-HO") many years ago when I was slimmer, and my beard was darker than nowadays. |
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11 Dec 10 - 01:44 PM (#3051088) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: frogprince Better than just getting mistaking for a male ho. |
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12 Dec 10 - 01:01 PM (#3051847) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: WalkaboutsVerse Re. the "anti-Santa Claus" cause in California, you may wish to check this thread thread. |
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13 Dec 10 - 09:23 AM (#3052431) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: GUEST,Patsy Joe F, I think you are kind of right or it's a gentle let down to prepare you for life's letdowns I can now see the purpose for Santa more clearly. When you think it's not really a bad idea. However, I still go all dewey eyed near grottos and fake snow. |
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14 Dec 10 - 06:52 PM (#3053632) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: s&r I love Santa - he brings me presents, and takes my presents to those I love. He certainly wasn't invented by Coca Cola whatever that is. There's a page on Snopes that shows a 1906 image. However, calling Santa the Coca Cola Santa gives WAV a cheap gratuitous shot at the Americans. Sorry WAV wrong again Stu |
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15 Dec 10 - 08:40 AM (#3053935) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: GUEST,Patsy If it makes children happy in a nasty adult world, let it continue. |
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15 Dec 10 - 02:10 PM (#3054156) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: WalkaboutsVerse It's not me who is taking "a cheap gratuitous shot", Stu. This is all I was getting at: "Further, the Coca-Cola advertising campaign had the effect of popularising the depiction of Santa as wearing red and white, in contrast to the variety of colours he wore prior to that campaign" (from Wiki.); or you could perhaps watch a re-run of the BBC's Victorian Christmas, where one of their historians said the same. |
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16 Dec 10 - 04:55 PM (#3055076) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: WalkaboutsVerse Don't often watch movies, these days, but recently enjoyed this on T.V. - The Nativity Story |
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16 Dec 10 - 06:32 PM (#3055132) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: Dave MacKenzie How about these Santas? |
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17 Dec 10 - 07:14 AM (#3055443) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: WalkaboutsVerse I wonder what beverage they clenched their thirst with? |
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17 Dec 10 - 07:25 AM (#3055452) Subject: RE: BS: Re. The 'Anti-Santa Claus' Cause From: s&r Quenched? Stu |