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08 Dec 10 - 09:47 PM (#3049297) Subject: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: GUEST,mg I have just come back from Holy Day mass and witnessed to the most horrifying example of Catholicism gone nuttier. The priest got up at the end of mass,and told the congregation, which was composed of perhaps 1/3 to 1/2 Mexican Americans, that they were not to stay and pray their Virgin of Guadalupe novena because the Mass took care of any prayers. Well, so what if it was redundant..and he did not say so take the night off..he said this is a stern warning and on and on. They were not not to stay and do the novena. Everyone knows how important this devotion is to them. And what inthe world is a priest telling people not to stay and pray for whatever reason. It was so insulting to all of us. They stayed in a cluster after Mass. Some were crying..perhaps over something else..I don't know. It was rude and totally unnecessary and I am going to inform someone of this. I might write to the local paper. mg |
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08 Dec 10 - 09:58 PM (#3049302) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Amos Oh, please do; this is really absurd authoritarianism and bullying. A |
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08 Dec 10 - 10:02 PM (#3049304) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: mousethief That's horrible. If the mass is complete why have any other service? Or do the Catholics still do things like matins or vespers or compline? I'm sure they do in monasteries, right? But why if the mass is all-sufficient? Or why pray at home either by yourself or with your family? Does he prohibit Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament? Praying the Our Father or Hail Mary? Saying the rosary? Unbelievable. (NOTE: I am not a Catholic.) |
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08 Dec 10 - 10:07 PM (#3049306) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Rapparee Write the Bishop. That's unconscionable. |
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08 Dec 10 - 10:32 PM (#3049313) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: GUEST,mg I think of my own ancestors having to worship in thorn bushes and on special hidden rocks...but at least it wasn't Holy Mother Church telling them they had to..well, this is the same parish, although not the same priest, that used to do the Nazi salute. It just gets nuttier and nuttier. mg |
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08 Dec 10 - 10:33 PM (#3049317) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Beer I am Catholic. That is I was baptized as one. Someone should have walked got up and went and popped him one. An uppercut would have been real nice. This fellow that calls should be thrown out and excommunicated. The church does not need bullies like him. Totally disgraceful. ad. |
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08 Dec 10 - 10:35 PM (#3049318) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Beer Addendum: This fellow that calls "himself a Priest". should |
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08 Dec 10 - 10:36 PM (#3049319) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: GUEST,mg I did tell him he was very rude..twice..as he was walking back up the aisle toward the crying women..he did not seem to hear me. I do not know how to be a Swiss Catholic, which he is. I do not know how to be a Mexican Catholic..which they are. I know only how to be a bog-trotting Irish Catholic..and being a decent person trumps everything . |
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09 Dec 10 - 01:15 AM (#3049350) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: mousethief I'd say to send a letter to the bishop saying, "Your Grace, Our priest said thus-and-such. I wanted to know if this is a new policy from the Vatican, or is this something your Grace has promulgated, or is this something our priest has introduced? If the first, where may I read about it? If the second, do you have a decision in writing that I may see? If the third, may I implore your Grace to please intervene and ask our priest to restore the practice of such-and-such. Very respectfully yours, mg" |
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09 Dec 10 - 01:25 AM (#3049352) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Joe Offer I think mg may have misunderstood what was happening, just as she did with her claim that this church makes "Nazi salutes" instead of blessings. If she had taken the time to talk calmly with the priest about the situation, I might agree she has a case. Certainly, it would be unthinkable to stop Mexican people from having prayers to Our Lady of Guadalupe during the week before the Dec 12 feast of the Patron of Mexico - but our reporter tends to be a bit distorted in her perception at times. So, mg, come back to us after you've talked to the priest and heard his side of the story. You and the people may have been insulted, but not the virgin. I'm guessing there's a rational explanation. Maybe the novena has been taking an hour or longer every night and he had to lock up and go make hospital calls. But hell, you think these people are Nazis and I wonder why you bother going to church there. Our Lady of Distorted Perception Parish might be more to your liking. We're having a fiesta in our parish - with lots of terrific Mexican food. The Mexican community raised money for a statue of Our Lady of Guadalupe, and we're making the event into a big celebration. -Joe- |
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09 Dec 10 - 03:25 AM (#3049383) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: GUEST,mg There are plenty of people who could lock up. This was because it was a Holy Day of Obligation and Mass wiped out the need for novena prayers. That is what he said. That is fine...he does not have to go. I do not have to go. He should have told them they do not have to go to the novena tonight because it had been taken care of with the mass. No..what he said was that they could not do the novena tonight, even though it is a very deep part of their religion. They could not do it. And he was giving them a stern warning. Those were his words..a stern warning. They clustered in the middle of the church after Mass, looking dumbfounded. Like I said one or maybe two women were crying. I wish I had started saying some hail marys because I was not part of the novena. Everyone knows how devoted they are to the Lady of Guadalupe. This was religious brutality, totally unnecessary, culturally beyond insensitive. It was really messing with peoples' traditions, their fundamental religious beliefs etc. I think he has lost a big chunk of the congregation, who will go to the next parish over. mg |
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09 Dec 10 - 04:05 AM (#3049393) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Joe Offer I'm sorry, mg, but what you say is preposterous, just like what you've said about the Nazi salutes. Priests don't have any reason to stop people from praying novenas, and parishes have no reason to salute Adolf Hitler. I dare you to talk to the priest in a nonconfrontational manner and get his side of the story. I will say, however, that the novena I found is a bit much, and there are other Guadalupe novenas that have political and ideological agendas attached. Maybe there was something objectionable about the particular novena these people were using. In general, novenas, rosaries, and other "private" devotions are to be practiced separately from the Mass, and not appended to the official worship. I had a pastor who stopped the Knights of Columbus from saying the rosary after Sunday Mass. Sounds horrible, doesn't it? What a horrible, horrible priest! Well, that ain't the whole story. The Knights, God bless 'em, wanted to start the rosary before the people were finished leaving church after Mass, and they insisted that everybody had to be absolutely quiet instead of greeting each other and engaging in normal conversation. The Knights would recite the rosary like a drill sergeant counting cadence. The priest first tried turning off the PA system so the Knights wouldn't be so domineering, but that didn't work. Finally, he told the Knights they had to wait ten minutes after Mass before they began the rosary, but the Knights didn't want to wait so long so they stopped saying the rosary. Eventually, a quiet, gentle group formed to say the rosary after Mass, and it wasn't a problem at all - quite unlike the Knights, whom I labeled the "Rosary Nazis." So, mg, what's the whole story? -Joe- |
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09 Dec 10 - 04:28 AM (#3049401) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: GUEST,^&* Where did this happen, please? Other reports/accounts - in English or Spanish? |
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09 Dec 10 - 09:31 AM (#3049592) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Greg F. Its difficult to have a rational conversation with a crazy person, isn't it? |
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09 Dec 10 - 09:33 AM (#3049597) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Bonzo3legs The only way to deal with that kind of bigotry is to ask him in a loud voice to repeat the instruction, then again and he will be humiliated. |
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09 Dec 10 - 10:22 AM (#3049650) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: maeve Hi, mg. It would be interesting to ask the priest to help you understand his words and the thoughts behind them. I can understand that you felt protective of your fellow worshipers, and the only way I can see for you to know the intent, meaning, and consequence of what you observed is to get further information from the priest as well as to ask for clarification from some of your Latino fellow members. Feel free to send me a PM if you'd care to talk about the issue further. Warm regards, Maeve |
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09 Dec 10 - 10:40 AM (#3049669) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Rapparee Had I been among the Hispanics I would have gone outside and said the novena kneeling on the church steps. When the press arrived I would have told them why. Funny, isn't it? Our pastor speaks fluent Spanish, we conduct Mass in Spanish (daily and weekly), and the Feast of Nuestra Senora de Guadelupe (recognized by the Vatican) is well-attended by everyone in the parish. A novena is a private devotion, not a requirement of the Catholic Faith. Sorry, Joe. I disagree with you; I think the priest was off-base. |
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09 Dec 10 - 10:43 AM (#3049671) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: olddude GET up walk out and call the Bishop ... this is nuts .. and yes I am catholic |
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09 Dec 10 - 11:08 AM (#3049688) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: GUEST,mg First of all, I never said the people saluted Adolph Hitler. I said they gave what was identical to the Nazi salute. Second, he did not stop the whole novena. He stopped the day that coincided with the Immaculate Conception. Third..it was not appended to the Mass as far as I could tell..they probably would have met there after Mass but it would in no way have interfered with anyone. There is something about breaking up a novena that does not appeal to the superstitious part of me, as well as insulting, from the altar, a whole group of people and one of their main religious qualities, namely, devotion to Lady of Guadalupe. It was not necessary, it was not nice and others I talked with, of non-Mexican descent, were appalled as well. And I must say I don't understand why people have to talk in church after Mass..they could wait until they got to the vestibule so I don't understand the rosary thing. mg |
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09 Dec 10 - 11:19 AM (#3049699) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: katlaughing Lot of personal attacking going on in this thread, imo. Joe, I am surprised you would use the "Nazi" appellation attached to anything, esp. a group from your own church. I think that word is used too casually these days. mg, I echo what maeve said. |
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09 Dec 10 - 11:28 AM (#3049704) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Bill D When you intermix multiple versions of culture, religion and personality and try to satisfy ALL of them in one ceremony or institution, this is what happens. It saddens me that people can tie themselves into such intransigent knots that disputes like this can happen. ..ah well... |
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09 Dec 10 - 12:25 PM (#3049733) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: olddude It goes back Bill to what I said, one doesn't need a building or a leader to pray and worship God ... when I see such things in church I walk out because then it is just a worldly ceremony then and not what it is suppose to be |
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09 Dec 10 - 12:31 PM (#3049739) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Greg F. the only way I can see for you to know the intent, meaning, and consequence of what you observed is to get further information from the priest as well as to ask for clarification from some of your Latino fellow members. Why the hell would she want to do that? Could might be she'd find she wasted all that outrage & righteous indignation. |
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09 Dec 10 - 03:32 PM (#3049867) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: maeve Mg is a friend of mine, Greg F. Could be you could monitor some of your own "outrage & righteous indignation", eh? Cordially, Maeve |
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09 Dec 10 - 04:17 PM (#3049908) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Joe Offer Whether she's anybody's friend or not, I think the comments from mg are irrational and hateful and intended to foment bigotry, and I strongly object to them. I repeat my suggestion that she talk to the priest and get the facts of the matter before posting anything more. The proof of the pudding is her previous, silly Nazi Salute thread. -Joe Offer- |
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09 Dec 10 - 04:17 PM (#3049909) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: jeffp kat, Joe didn't call it a Nazi salute, mg did. Check out her opening post. |
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09 Dec 10 - 04:30 PM (#3049914) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: jeffp Oops it was her 10:32 pm post. |
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09 Dec 10 - 04:42 PM (#3049920) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Joe Offer Oh, I did refer to the "rosary nazis" who attempted to force their standards on the rest of my parish. Like it or not, the term "soup nazi" has entered our vocabulary, and these rosary guys were every bit as obnoxious as the Soup Nazi from Seinfeld. I have seen many, many instances where "devotional Catholics" have been unbelievably obnoxious in their insistence on their particular devotional cult. The Divine Mercy devotions and the Medjugorje silliness are two that have been very popular lately, and there are thousands of other loony Catholic cults. The Guadalupe devotions have been around long enough to lose some of their looniness, but some devotees can be as obnoxious and aggressive as my rosary nazis. Now, there are some who are gentle and serene and kind and exemplary in the practice of their devotions; but there are many whose devotional practices are obnoxious, irrational, and aggressive. Those people give Catholics a bad name. Many of these groups want to take over churches after Mass for their particular devotions - excluding everyone else in the congregation and demanding that all others leave. The official policy is that the Mass is complete in itself, the official prayer of the entire church; and no other devotional services should be held in connection with the Mass - not even Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament. Those things are encouraged at other times, but not in connection with the Mass. But we don't really know what the problem was in mg's church, because she has presented all of the hysteria and outrage and indignation and none of the facts. Not the first time that's happened. My words are strong, but there's a reason for that - mg is in a habit of stirring things up with little factual basis. -Joe- |
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09 Dec 10 - 04:52 PM (#3049925) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: maeve With respect- We can state an objection to a person's post without making accusations. We can state an opinion without attacking a person. None of us can know what another person is dealing with at any given time. Our treatment of one another matters and can have an impact far beyond the visible, online posts. Such was my motivation here. |
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09 Dec 10 - 04:58 PM (#3049929) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: kendall Thank God I'm an Atheist. |
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09 Dec 10 - 05:26 PM (#3049941) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: bobad You're welcome. |
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09 Dec 10 - 06:21 PM (#3049963) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Greg F. Our treatment of one another matters and can have an impact far beyond the visible, online posts. Get a grip, girl. |
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09 Dec 10 - 06:24 PM (#3049966) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Greg F. Mg is a friend of mine...Cordially, Maeve Condolences. Cordially, Greg |
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09 Dec 10 - 07:31 PM (#3050007) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: McGrath of Harlow Some of my best friends can be very silly at times... Can't we all? |
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09 Dec 10 - 07:31 PM (#3050008) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: katlaughing With respect- We can state an objection to a person's post without making accusations. We can state an opinion without attacking a person. None of us can know what another person is dealing with at any given time. Our treatment of one another matters and can have an impact far beyond the visible, online posts. Well said, maeve. Joe, you are getting really personal in your attacks. Lucky you, having Greg chime in with snide remarks. BTW, |
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09 Dec 10 - 08:43 PM (#3050059) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Greg F. BTW, You want jeffp, Kat. And if I may quote Joe: " we don't really know what the problem was in mg's church, because she has presented all of the hysteria and outrage and indignation and none of the facts." 'nuff said. |
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09 Dec 10 - 09:18 PM (#3050075) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Bill D copying my own post from above: "When you intermix multiple versions of culture, religion and personality and try to satisfy ALL of them in one ceremony or institution, this is what happens. It saddens me that people can tie themselves into such intransigent knots that disputes like this can happen." and adding.... This is why some threads get so many sarcastic and/or critical remarks from the non-religious. If there can be such debate over tiny, technical bits of ecclesiastical minutiae,(and this is only about Catholic ones!) can anyone be surprised that many refuse to choose ANY of the thousands of incompatible alternatives? Yes...I know that, here in Mudcat, there are examples of 'reason' on religious questions, as well as off-the-wall arm waving about non-issues. I 'tend' to try to limit myself mostly to comments on bad logic and examples of attempts to impose religion on society-- but debates over whether one form of 'blessing' is too close to a Nazi salute, or whether one specific priest has 'insulted' a supposed 'saint' are what I consider to BE examples of silliness to rank with "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?.." I have struggled with myself over whether to insert my non-Catholic nose into this...so I waited to see if others would. They did.... I still favor religious 'freedom', but sheesh... what arcane icing we see spread on a cake baked with recipes from bad translations of dozens of ancient cookbooks.... Ok...that's enough, Bill...probably more than enough... |
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10 Dec 10 - 06:25 AM (#3050237) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Van Perhaps if you wish to worship in a different way you should find a different church. The priest tends to tell what to do not ask you what you want to do. (but he will forgive you in confession) |
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10 Dec 10 - 06:48 AM (#3050247) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: greg stephens To an outsider, this is all completely fascinating, rather baffling, and also rather disturbing. You certainly learn stuff on Mudcat. |
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10 Dec 10 - 08:36 AM (#3050289) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: kendall If I were God the first thing I would do is eliminate fear. That would automatically eliminate all organized religion. |
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10 Dec 10 - 08:44 AM (#3050292) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: McGrath of Harlow How many angels can dance on the point of a pin isn't actually a particularly silly question - it's merely a colourful way of summing up discussion about the relationship between space and spirit. |
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10 Dec 10 - 08:57 AM (#3050300) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Beer Right on Kendall. Might also eliminate most wars. ad. |
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10 Dec 10 - 08:59 AM (#3050303) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Greg F. Or the relationship between myth, superstition and fact. |
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10 Dec 10 - 11:51 AM (#3050422) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: GUEST,999 I think that asking the `offending priest` what was up would have eliminated lots of angst on this thread--possibly obviating the need for it. |
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10 Dec 10 - 11:53 AM (#3050424) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: katlaughing Maybe not...the priest is in a position of power, traditionally esp. over women. It takes a lot of self-confidence and guts to confront someone like that. |
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10 Dec 10 - 11:54 AM (#3050425) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Ebbie Eliminating fear would inevitably lead to the extinction of mankind. Even caustion stems from fear. |
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10 Dec 10 - 12:21 PM (#3050441) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Ebbie Let's drop an 's'. |
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10 Dec 10 - 12:28 PM (#3050444) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Jeri "the priest is in a position of power, traditionally esp. over women. It takes a lot of self-confidence and guts to confront someone like that. " Kat, while I agree it takes more courage to find out facts from a person than embarking on a campaign against them, I don't believe it takes much more courage than facing up to the fact you might be wrong. For most of us, that isn't very difficult. For others, I think maybe it is. If a person isn't afraid to assume evil and accuse a person on the internet, they should at least have the "courage" to do the minimally decent thing and try to find out if their assumptions are anything but their own sour imagination. Anyone who thinks their fear is more important than the truth is probably going to suffer a lot in their lives, and share that suffering with others. Personally, I don't need it. |
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10 Dec 10 - 12:58 PM (#3050454) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: GUEST,mg No evil was assumed. No one was accused of anything they did not do on the internet. Behavior was reported. That is not an accusation of anything. I assume obsessive compulsion combined with rigid thinking combined with poor theology combined with cultural insensitivity in the extreme. I do not need to confront him and ask him for his reasons. He explained his reasons on the altar. I would love to go to another church but it is 30 miles away and I have no private or public transportation. I think we have an obligation to call various religions out, our own or others, when others are harmed. I can assure you that a large part of the congregation there was religiously harmed. One or probably two were crying. mg |
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10 Dec 10 - 01:11 PM (#3050464) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: GUEST,999 You`re right about that, Kat. I think one of the main reasons I do not go to church anymore is the ritualistic rigidity built into many religions. When I need to speak with The Boss, I tend to do so in the woods or when I hear the odd song that touches my heart. It ain`t a conversation per se. More like thoughts. No, I hear no voices--except in some of those songs. I`d like y`all to know I have no dog in this discussion. (Ever since I learned to mix metaphors life has perked up considerably.) |
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10 Dec 10 - 01:24 PM (#3050474) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: mousethief If I were God the first thing I would do is eliminate fear. That would automatically eliminate all organized religion. If She first eliminated ignorance, things like this would never get posted. |
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10 Dec 10 - 02:30 PM (#3050515) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Joe Offer On the West Coast of the U.S., most Catholic parishes bend over backwards to serve Spanish-speaking Catholics. It would be foolhardy to do otherwise, since such a large proportion of Catholics on the West Coast are of Hispanic ancestry. Most parishes have Spanish Masses, and and priests ordained in the last two or three decades have been required to learn Spanish. But there are slights and misunderstandings and insults at times. That happens every time humans get together, and more often when there are language and cultural barriers. You can either make issues out of them and use them as "proof" that others are horrible people, or you can talk things over and work things out. When I was in another parish, we had a deaf sacristan who would close and lock everything and put everything away and turn out the lights, seemingly unaware that the Spanish-speaking people were arriving for the Spanish Mass and this was sending signals that there were unwelcome. I suspect that the sacristan was not innocent in this. He didn't seem to think it was his job to have a welcoming attitude. Anyhow, that problem was solved with the intervention of the pastor. But we still don't know the priest's side of the story in the incident that started this thread. Obviously, there was a misunderstanding, and some people got their feelings hurt - but that's about all we know. -Joe- |
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11 Dec 10 - 12:04 AM (#3050750) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Beer Well I will put forth two suggestions as it seems that it is between Joe and mg. 1) Mg. ask the priest to join M |
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11 Dec 10 - 12:09 AM (#3050752) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Beer Oops!, Ask the Priest to join Mudcat and give his side of the story. Or 2) Joe, you get it and report back. Otherwise this thread has no conclusive ending except polarizing members. ad. |
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11 Dec 10 - 04:47 AM (#3050812) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Joe Offer Exactly, Beer. It's a matter for her to discuss within her own parish with people familiar with the situation, not a matter for discussion on a worldwide forum. It's a local matter, not one the rest of us can understand or do anything about. -Joe- |
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11 Dec 10 - 05:06 AM (#3050818) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: katlaughing Not a matter to bully over, either. |
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11 Dec 10 - 09:03 AM (#3050919) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Greg F. Anyone who thinks their fear is more important than the truth ... That describes a sizeable proportion of the U.S. population since 11 Sept - fear of Muslims, fear of Health Care reform, fear of neighbors, fear of their own showdows & etc - a fear stoked by the TeaBagger / BuShite crowd for political advantage. And it works a treat. |
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11 Dec 10 - 12:55 PM (#3051055) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: mg It is not a local matter at all. These things have a way of spreading and people have a way of enjoying dominating other people if they are allowed to. This seems like a trivial issue, but it was not. And I absolutely believe that stuff should be out in public so that it won't thrive in private. mg |
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11 Dec 10 - 02:44 PM (#3051118) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Bee-dubya-ell As I understand it, apparitions such as the Virgin of Guadalupe are interpreted as appearances of the one true Virgin Mary, not as separate entities. As such, they are worthy of celebration, but not adoration. Mary, the divine being, is to be adored. Her appearance at a particular place and time is to be celebrated. In any religious belief system, not just Catholicism, if an apparition or manifestation supplants the underlying divine concept, it's a step away from healthy spirituality and toward superstition. It amounts to worshiping the flagpole and ignoring the flag. |
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11 Dec 10 - 02:46 PM (#3051121) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Greg F. If only you knew, Mary, what "these things" are. |
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11 Dec 10 - 03:09 PM (#3051135) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: SINSULL "Mary, the divine being..." What did I miss? This is new to me but I have been away from church for a while. |
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11 Dec 10 - 03:53 PM (#3051170) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Bee-dubya-ell Okay, how'bout "quasi-divine"? |
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11 Dec 10 - 04:01 PM (#3051173) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Joe Offer Well, the official teaching is that Catholics don't worship or adore the Virgin Mary. In practice, the opposite is true for many Catholics. For many, Mary is the goddess - often more important than Jesus or the Trinity. Being seminary-educated, I don't buy that. However, the fact of the matter is that many Catholics worship Mary, despite the fact that it is contrary to Catholic doctrine. For many Catholics, the rosary and numerous maudlin "devotions" are far more important than the Mass - again, this is contrary to Catholic doctrine. I'm afraid the Catholic Church isn't very good at indoctrination. Many, if not most, Catholics have a very flawed view of the teachings of their faith - and when priests and catechists try to teach them, they just don't get it. Their primal misconceptions are far stronger than anything anybody can teach them. -Joe- |
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11 Dec 10 - 04:35 PM (#3051193) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Bee-dubya-ell Heck, Joe, if ya'll Catholics don't worship Mary then how come you confuse the rest of us by naming churches "Our Lady of Whatever"? Curious minds want to know. |
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11 Dec 10 - 04:44 PM (#3051198) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: mg Here is where my maudlin ancestors are from..very close to the Gallarus oratory..I stayed with Mr. Collins in his wife's B&B and went on his tour..he pointed out where the ancestors are from. Some of the high hills above the oratory. Supposedly there are old Danish relics there as well. My great great aunt, after whom I might be named, died of making a novena in the wet weather that apparently involved walking for 9 nights around the gravestones. Do I want the same respect shown to new immigrants to the country that I would have liked my ancestors to have had? Yes. Do I believe in freedom of assembly and freedom of religion? Yes..unless someone is going to get hurt and then sometimes things have to be curtailed. mg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DAfHw4BOgg where maudlin ancestors lived for a long time |
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11 Dec 10 - 09:14 PM (#3051366) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Joe Offer Bee-dubya-ell, Catholics are supposed to honor Mary and the saints. You know, it's kinda like naming rights for a stadium... The "official" Roman Catholic faith is very much a head-based religion. What's on the books is all very rational and documented and balanced - and in my eight years of seminary training, I was taught what's "on the books" - and it makes a lot of sense to me, although I don't meet a whole lot of Catholics who understand or accept it. Also, I have to say that what's on the books is usually very compassionate, and doesn't cater to the ethnic biases and cruelty and the harshness that is so often present in religion. However, what's on the books often tends to be unrealistic, and often tends not to hear or understand what's in people's hearts. On the other hand, the "unofficial" Roman Catholic faith is very much a matter of the heart, often leaving reason and logic far behind. It is an instrument of ethnicity, with both the strengths and weaknesses of ethnic backgrounds. It can be rich in folklore and tradition and family history, and it can also harbor ethnic prejudices and superstition and cruelty. Theologically, the "unofficial" Roman Catholic faith is a mess, and is a home for all the pagan beliefs that are in the history of the ethnic groups that call themselves Catholic. No wonder the reformers of the 16th century found fault with the Catholic faith. It's a very, very messy religion. I'm not sure which side of the fence I stand on. I'm thoroughly Catholic, and 16 years of Catholic education and four decades of supplemental workshops have given me a strong grounding in what the Catholic Church is supposed to be. "Intellectual Catholicism" is where I come from - but I've had a lot of contact with "ethnic Catholicism," and I've learned to respect it without fully understanding it. So, yeah, I've learned that the Hispanic community has a right to celebrate Our Lady of Guadalupe devotions, even though they seem tacky to my rational mind. And the Polish community has a right to celebrate Divine Mercy devotions, although I question the Americans who have scrubbed away the Polish roots of these devotions and changed them into something rigid and doctrinaire. They even photoshopped out the Polish inscription on the Divine Mercy Icon, replacing it with computer lettering in English. Benedict XVI (Josef Ratzinger) is very much a Pope of "intellectual Catholicism," and I feel comfortable with him. The highly acclaimed John Paul II (the Great) was a Pope of "ethnic Catholicism," and I didn't understand him and didn't like him. The Catholic Church is a big mess. It's not rational at all. Maybe that's the way it's supposed to be. MG, even though I don't completely understand it, I do respect your point of view. I think you are an extraordinary person, and I don't mean to put you down in any way. However, I think the priest in question also has a valid perspective. You need to talk with him, and to search for common ground. I think you'll find it if you look. "Intellectual Catholicism" and "ethnic Catholicism" will always be in conflict, but it can be a constructive conflict if people take the time to listen to each other. -Joe Offer- |
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11 Dec 10 - 10:56 PM (#3051403) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Ebbie Keeping in mind that my religious background is Amish, a faith that fears and abhors the Roman Catholic faith, notwithstanding the indubitable fact that they emulate a good many of the features of the Catholic church they abhor- well, after that long, convoluted sentence, let me just ask this: A statue of anyone be it saint, secular hero or a commemoration of some sort is not alive, therefore cannot be insulted. Right? Shown disrespect, yes, but if that occurs the only apology due is to the community. Right? What am I missing? |
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11 Dec 10 - 11:18 PM (#3051407) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Joe Offer Absolutely correct, Ebbie. Still, the Virgin of Guadalupe, as the patron of Hispanic (particularly Mexican) Catholics, is a symbol of a people who have long been oppressed. It's another one of those head vs. heart things. "Head people" know that the image of Guadalupe is merely an image, and cannot be insulted. "Heart people" know that the image represents an entire people, who can can be (and have been) insulted and hurt and oppressed beyond imagine - and that's the point mg is making, not that I can say that I understand it completely. -Joe- |
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12 Dec 10 - 03:23 AM (#3051564) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: KT I live and work among Catholic immigrants who have similar practices, (rosaries, novenas, etc.) They are extremely devoted to their practices and their intentions are pure, and culturally ingrained. One of them shared with me that a priest told them that they did not need to be concerned about occasions when they missed mass, as they were doing such sacred work. While this was foreign to them, they expressed great relief and appreciation as they spoke to me about it later. Could it be, mg, that perhaps this man, no matter how clumsy his words, was not actually intending to forbid them their practice, but attempting to relieve them of feeling the necessity of the novena on that day because of the fact that the whole mass was already devoted to Mary? (this was December 8th, right? ) If there is any room for this possibility, and even if there is not, perhaps you could discuss it with him. I know you said you have no need to, but if you're truly concerned that this incident was damaging to others, then perhaps you could be an instrument of healing, for all parties, by kindly bringing it to his attention. Either way, I'd bet you'd both come away with deeper understanding, at the very least. Respectfully, KT |
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12 Dec 10 - 08:08 AM (#3051680) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: kendall When I suggested that eliminating fear would be a good thing, I didn't mean fear of rabid dogs,or stepping in front of a bus, or ignoring chest pains. Those are survival tools. Also, there are Christians here, and I do not mean to trash your belief system. I'm simply saying it is not logical and I don't understand it. Please don't take this personally. |
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12 Dec 10 - 03:28 PM (#3051955) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: mg He absolutely and unequivocably was telling them not to do the novena that day. It was not a situation of oh, the Mass has taken care of the requirement...which would be fine...it was I am forbidding you to do this. You can not do this today. You must break your novena..which even too me sounds like a horrible thing to tell someone to do. But the major part of my religious beliefs is superstition laced with paranoia frosted with pretty rituals and used to be nice songs plus respect for my father'sancestors who went through a lot to practice their faith..and complicated by the fact that my mother's family was Anti-Catholic Protestant and so in more or less practicing Catholicism I am forced to reject the other side of my heritage which is fire and brimstone Baptist. I would rather say screw it and become a Unitarian or Druid but then my paranoia kicks in. mg |
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13 Dec 10 - 07:38 AM (#3052366) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: GUEST Poster appears to be Brian May Just as well they weren't looking for a virgin in Doncaster. I was told by a pastor once that the best, and worst thing about Christianity . . . was Christians. It seems to apply in the Catholic Church too. A a certain type of person a little bit of power . . . Either way, if praying feels good, do it - you're only accountable to your God and your conscience. |
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14 Dec 10 - 04:18 AM (#3053080) Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Joe Offer I was looking for a train in Doncaster one day, Brian. I found several, my first really good experience of trainspotting in England. Didn't see any obvious virgins there, though... But you're right about the other thing - church people can drive me crazy, but they can also do wonderful things. I've spent my life trying to teach Catholics about their religion, and they are aggravatingly unwilling to believe that Catholicism is anything other than their own narrow subset of preconceptions. Still, they can be amazingly generous and compassionate. When the going gets tough and they have to leave the doctrine aside and look into their hearts, they're fine. -Joe- |
