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09 Jan 11 - 10:21 PM (#3070999) Subject: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Bobert Well, here we are... We've just witnessed the first shooting of a federally elected congressperson since maybe Huey Long in the 30's and we are being told that what we need is to "tone it down"... Ya'll know how I feel but, at least for now, this thread is open for discussion/rants/bebates, etc... B~ |
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09 Jan 11 - 10:23 PM (#3071001) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: mousethief I'm willing to take back everything I ever said that implied that a Republican should be shot, if the Republicans will take back everything they have ever said that implied that Democrats should be shot. Ready? I'll go first. Okay, their turn. |
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09 Jan 11 - 11:18 PM (#3071018) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Janie I happen to think it would be a terrific idea to "tone it down." |
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09 Jan 11 - 11:22 PM (#3071020) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: J-boy Excuse me for not giving a FLYING FUCK about politics. A wonderful nine year old girl was shot in the chest and killed. But of course we don't know which party she belonged to do we? |
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09 Jan 11 - 11:25 PM (#3071022) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Beer Right on J-boy. and Jane I also agree with you. ad. |
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09 Jan 11 - 11:35 PM (#3071026) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: J-boy Sorry for the outburst. I just know we need to find a better way. All of us. |
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09 Jan 11 - 11:40 PM (#3071029) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Beer J-boy you have nothing to be sorry for. Many are feeling exactly what you expressed. At least you had a way to express it. There are those who do not have this. ad. |
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09 Jan 11 - 11:57 PM (#3071033) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: katlaughing Me, too, Janie. Ranting and raving is not going to help any more. |
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10 Jan 11 - 12:40 AM (#3071043) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Donuel Waking this morning was a sickening experience. I am sick from empathy. Mu body soul and mind are nauseated by the events. Tone it down is probably a double edged sword. I mentioned that it would be like stopping a super tanker with a quarter of the crew fighting to go full speed ahead. FOX news is actively fighting the notion of toning it down. Brit Hume is the spokesperson of this anti tone it down rhetoric. He reminded us that after the Oklahoma City bombing there was similar calls to censor language but it naturally and rightfully faded away. Juan Williams chimed in and said it would be a good idea to tone it down but he was poo pooed by the other talking heads. The absolutely WORST comment I heard on FOX came from Gretchen Carlson who said... "Ms. Giffords DID support tougher immigration laws BUT,,,she voted for Obamacare which explains why [she was shot in the head] ! You could physically see everyone getting yelled at in their little ear pieces to hurry up and change the subject when they all stammered as quickly as possible to change the subject in 3 different directions at once. I have in on dvr. Yes the sheriff Dubnik was eloquent in his rant against the dangerous white hot rhetoric and that people are going to have to do some soul searching. "Arizona has become the Mecca of hatred bigotry and predjudice" "I don't know a single public servant who has not received threats" Much of what he said will be repeated for years to come in much the same way that Rodney King's 4 words are still repeated. Hateful words and rumorous lies do have consequences. everyone already knows that. I am posting these words on our street corner. My flags are at half mast. Yes Kat I agree that aimless ranting doesn't help but it does heal a soul sick from the moment. Gabrielle should become a living martyr and be spoken of as often as possible. The alternative is silence where evil implies silence as consent. |
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10 Jan 11 - 12:49 AM (#3071046) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Donuel The alternative is silence where evil assumes silence as consent. |
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10 Jan 11 - 01:09 AM (#3071050) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: J-boy I could almost give up. "All you need is Love?" ,"Imagine?" Where has our idealism gone? I wouldn't care so much if you bloody baby boomers hadn't implanted these ideas in my head from infancy. Where's the goddamn revolution already? |
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10 Jan 11 - 01:15 AM (#3071051) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: J-boy Never mind. I'll go stand in the corner. I earned it. |
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10 Jan 11 - 03:17 AM (#3071079) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Ebbie sheesh When you called yourself 'jBoy you evidently meant it. I am too old to be a baby boomer- and you're too young to be one- when do we get blamed? |
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10 Jan 11 - 03:43 AM (#3071087) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Donuel The regular weekday right wing AM radio shock jocks started their response to toning it down at 3 in the morning today. The following was said at 3-4 Am on WMAL Washington DC "this is absolutely not the time to tone down anything including violence. In fact it is time to DOUBLE DOWN" "it is all the liberals who want YOU DEAD. THYE SAY someone wants to kill you. They want YOU DEAD. The left wants you to die. Robert Reich actually said "IF I were to speak as a candidate, we are not going to pay higher drug costs, we are going to go home to die." See he actually said he hopes you go home and die!" "Liberals want you to DIE! This crazy loner did not have to use a gun. He could have satisfied his delusions with his bare hands. So its not about guns. (I need to interject here that Jarred Loughner was not too crazy to legally buy a gun) This Loughner was a far left demented kid." "What are we to do? Maybe we should change the name of Target Stores. It is unconscienable for this sheriff in Arizona to play politics with the life of that poor little girl who was killed." ...................... As I expected AM radio is in fact going even farther into the dark side. You know if anyone tells me that toning it down is wrong I would ask them what is the cost of not threatening murder? What is lost by not telling people to go gunning at anyone in particular? WOuld the life of one more child not being killed by a crazy loner. Is a civil war or tea party revolution put in peril if preaching the value of murdering democrats? If nothing else you might just get the independents to listen to sense instead of turning away from sensless violence. ------------------------------- Although few people want to say it aloud, it is Barak Obama who is threatened with death talk on AM radio than any other person. More than bin Laden, more than anyone else. Is another assasination of a US president that important to you in particular? If so, you are beyond soul searching for what is good for America. |
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10 Jan 11 - 04:54 AM (#3071116) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Steve Shaw The tenor of the UK reporting of this incident was that a congresswoman was badly injured and six other people were killed. We're used to this here. Typically, it's something like "One Briton hurt, 500 Indians killed in train crash in India." |
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10 Jan 11 - 06:30 AM (#3071163) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Donuel The Fox news mantra this morning is "a Mrs. roberts reported that this whacko kid is a pot smoking lefty liberal. That is not surprising." On Sunday Gretchen Carlson said that "COngresswoman Gillford did support spending cuts and Immigration reform BUT she voted for Obama care which explains why she was shot." As moustheif said, people of conscience will tone down their rhetoric, now its your turn. apparently the divide includes conscience haves and conscience have nots. |
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10 Jan 11 - 06:59 AM (#3071176) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: saulgoldie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq38Nnf4pOw |
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10 Jan 11 - 07:19 AM (#3071190) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Donuel D Congresswoman is submitting a bill to ban the semi automatic glock with extended magazines. Her husband was killed by a handgun on the aLong Island RR and her son was wounded. The assualt rifle ban expired in 1990. The Brady bill seems to have had no effect. The national gun trace facility is banned from having a national computerized data base. EVERY piece of information on gun ownership is all done by papers in card board boxes and file cabinets. The right will redouble thier efforts to deamonized the unameican leftys for trying to take their guns away. The record sale of guns and ammo over the last 2 years is a very real potential powder keg. Saul G the entire 2 hour Olbermann special is one of the best I have ever seen. |
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10 Jan 11 - 07:24 AM (#3071194) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Donuel What can be done? How about requiring FOX NEWS segments, Clear Channel Radio shock jock shows, White Power Websites and similar patriotic bigoted sites, ... To REQUIRE A LABEL just like cigarretes, prescriptions, graphic TV shows or movies. This can be done with a interfaith religious panel, a FCC panel and a rotating independent advisory panel. I know this is a simple idea but it is one that can actually be done. It is easily understood and already a common practice in our society. Those that brag about fair and balanced will now have proof when it actually is. |
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10 Jan 11 - 07:37 AM (#3071204) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Donuel edit the Clinton assualt rifle ban expired in 2004 |
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10 Jan 11 - 09:58 AM (#3071289) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Jeri The rhetoric of hate, whether from the right, left or in between, can help some loosely-wrapped people unwind a bit more. It's ok to kill the enemy, isn't it? It's ok for cops to shoot bad guys and for you to kill someone invading your home or threatening you, isn't it? So if you see someone else as the enemy, the bad guy, or the invader you're justified in killing THEM, right? There are very few things I can say I hate in this world. Ironically, I hate hatred. I hate haters. If I can, I just avoid those people on Mudcat the way I avoid violent raving loonies on the street. And to Bobert, who started this thread, and some of the rest of the folks here: I don't believe that most rational people like hanging around with folks who are pissed off, and ranting, and belittling people. The ones who do are your fellow haters. You're scary. You portray yourselves in a way that makes you seem you have no love or kindness in your hearts. I've met some of you, and you don't seem like haters in Real Life. Is this the real you I've met, or is it the real you that comes out in the rhetoric? Anyone who might have wanted to sow seeds of hatred and anger in the American public has found fertile ground, and the shoots grow. If you want to put those sprouts in the sun and water them, well, it's your heart. I just wonder what you think you'll harvest. |
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10 Jan 11 - 10:04 AM (#3071292) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Greg F. So folks should not be angry that the spouters of the Right Wing River of Bullshit have aided and abetted murder. What should we be doing? linking hands and singing Kumbaya? |
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10 Jan 11 - 10:08 AM (#3071295) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Donuel To the credit of certain idologes here they have perhaps done some soul searching and have not said strident remarks that would amount to a total rejection of toning it down. On the other hand when Gretchen Carlson of FOX said "since Gifford voted for Obama care it goes to explain the attacks", my jaw dropped. Jeri, do you think that the sowing of hate seeds and over the top rhetoric, graphics and distortions is simply considered by some the means one uses to win? Winning at any cost is what the banks did. Winning at any cost is what the 2000 election was about. The concept of winning will need some soul searching as well. |
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10 Jan 11 - 10:23 AM (#3071303) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Jeri If someone pushes, they EXPECT you to push back. If doing what those you don't like and being controlled that way makes you happy, have fun. There isn't only one way to react to anger--not just pushing back, not just hate on top of hate. If someone uses over the top rhetoric to win, do you really think doing the same in retaliation is the best way to fight? People are so conditioned to "fight fire with fire" that they can't see what the results will be. You can't fight lies with more lies, and you can't fight hate with more hate, and not expect any result but lies and hate. I understand anger, but I believe it's possible to ignore the impulse to knee-jerk into push-back mode, and think logically about what will IMPROVE situations. |
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10 Jan 11 - 10:34 AM (#3071309) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Donuel It sounds like the typical dillemma a resaonalbe guest on FOX faces when expressing any issue which is contrary to the conservative talking points of the day. They are shouted at. They are told they said somthing they didn;t. They are called names. They are subject to rolling eyes, open mouths, heavy sighs, laughter and general disrespect. When a "contrarian" gets angry the FOX host claims victory. |
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10 Jan 11 - 11:46 AM (#3071375) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: GUEST,leeneia We will understand all this a lot better when the tox screens (which take weeks) come back from the shooter. Of course, we may never get to hear about it for various reasons. People do not go out and kill strangers, whether are 9 or 79, because of rhetoric. They do it because their minds are ravaged, either naturally or by toxic substances. Alcohol, marijuana, PCP, crack ... Hell, there are new ones all the time. (Marijuana is changing to an even more destructive thing called 'skunk.') But the news doesn't want to talk about that because who wants to wait 6-8 weeks to get in on all the excitement? |
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10 Jan 11 - 12:00 PM (#3071386) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: pdq "People do not go out and kill strangers, whether are 9 or 79, because of rhetoric." Neither do they kill people they know due to rhetoric on TV or radio. Several sources on the web say that the Tucson shooter worked for Ms Giffords campaign at least once, maybe twice. He spoke to her before and knew what she claimed to stand for. This was probably a case of being dissapointed at your hero. Same thing happened to John Lennon. Drugs and mental problem are a bad mix too. |
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10 Jan 11 - 12:20 PM (#3071404) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Ed T Tone it down, turn it down, or tune it out. |
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10 Jan 11 - 12:30 PM (#3071413) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Greg F. People do not go out and kill strangers, whether are 9 or 79, because of rhetoric..... Neither do they kill people they know due to rhetoric on TV or radio. I think that some of the victims of Kristallnacht or Sobibor, Treblinka, etc. might disagree. |
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10 Jan 11 - 01:58 PM (#3071487) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Probably said already, but 19th c. rhetoric much worse. Libel laws may have something to do with it. Chase down some of the speeches by Andrew Jackson and David Crockett. |
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10 Jan 11 - 02:57 PM (#3071517) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Greg F. Yeah, Q, and quite a few people, Senators and Representatives included, ended up dead as a direct consequence of that shit- by gun, by knife, by cane & etc. One would like to think we've progressed somewhat as a society - or are you longing for the "good old days"? And if not, what's your point? |
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10 Jan 11 - 02:59 PM (#3071519) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: akenaton Sorry guys,.....I dont think there's any hope for you people, you're all fuckin' mad; and mad over a mirage, its just hate for hates sake, no rhyme nor reason. J boy has the right of it, the child is dead and what party did she support? Does it matter? ...No more than what Party YOU support! You all talk about toning down, then launch into a hate filled diatribe. I remember when Mrs Palin entered the VP race....I had never heard such hatred and vitriol.....not from Bobert, but from you nice easy middle of the road left leaning Dems....and now you have the gall to present a holier than thou attitude......Sheesh as they say. |
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10 Jan 11 - 03:03 PM (#3071526) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Greg F. "The Child" is only ONE of the dead and wounded. Collateral damage, you might say- as the right wing sez about dead Iraqui civilians, etc. If you can produce an example of someone recommending a "second ammendment solution" to Palin or toting guns to one of her appearences to threaten her with, please do so, Pharoah- else shut the fuck up. |
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10 Jan 11 - 03:08 PM (#3071530) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: akenaton I happily shut the fuck up Greg, I suppose its none of my business, but maybe you should all do the same. |
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10 Jan 11 - 03:15 PM (#3071539) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: GUEST,Neil D People do not go out and kill strangers, whether are 9 or 79, because of rhetoric..... Neither do they kill people they know due to rhetoric on TV or radio. Actually, that is exactly what happened in Rwanda. |
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10 Jan 11 - 03:41 PM (#3071558) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Lox Neil, Spot on! Rwanda, Germany, Italy, Zimbabwe, etc etc etc. Not to mention the current video propaganda activities of Al Qaeda ... Here's the rub folks. This world is made of ideas. Money is the best example of an idea we depend on. It only exists in the abstract and because we agree it exists. When the credit crunch happened, we nearly stopped agreeing that it exists. Democracy, Fascism, liberalism, "liberalism" etc etc are all ideas. And our lives are defined by them. Here's the point. Ideas infect our minds and grow there. They compete for dominance and they drive our decision making and our actions. Forums like this, libraries, parliaments, debating chambers or even the pub, are where ordinary people exchange and share ideas. These ideas spread and take root in peoples minds. Thats why you can never take it for granted that people will behave normally or rationally, but you have to constantly oppose damaging ideas do all yu can to prevent them taking root and growing. The human race has evolved cerebrally above all and it is ideas that have got us where we are. The war of ideas is where the future of the human race stands or falls. |
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10 Jan 11 - 04:00 PM (#3071572) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Lighter Regardless of the killer's thought processes, the harm in "toning it down" is what precisely? |
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10 Jan 11 - 04:09 PM (#3071574) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: akenaton Just remembered this song and this singer. Maybe you should listen to what y'all could be? I am a town |
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10 Jan 11 - 04:38 PM (#3071594) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Bobert Bullyin' is the strongest card the right has in it's hand and they are not going to give it up without a fight... They own most of the guns and want the left to know it... They have done almost all of the killin' over the last 4 decades... And they, not to sound inflammatory, understand the tactics of the Taliban all too well... There is only one area where we on the left have a level playin' field and that is here on the internet... I have been posting to various sites, even at NPR, and would suggest that folk(ies) here do the same... B~ |
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10 Jan 11 - 04:40 PM (#3071597) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: number 6 "toning it down" yup .... we have to. Bush invaded a country (Iraq)and started a war for revenge and it should be noted a majority of the population, Democrats and Republicans where emotionally and unanimously behind him on that .... that should be a lesson on "toning it down" . biLL |
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10 Jan 11 - 05:44 PM (#3071660) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: GUEST,TIA "Democrats and Republicans where emotionally and unanimously behind him on that" Not true. Sorry. |
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10 Jan 11 - 05:54 PM (#3071668) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: number 6 you are correct TIA ... I am wrong. my apologies. biLL |
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10 Jan 11 - 06:21 PM (#3071685) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: pdq Perhaps this hate and anger is coming from the TOP. This is our "post-partisan" President... "If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,"— Obama in July 2008 "I want you to argue with them and get in their face!"— Barack Obama, September 2008 "We're gonna punish our enemies and we're gonna reward our friends who stand with us on issues that are important to us."— Obama to Latinos, October 2010 "I don't want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I'm angry!" Obama on ACORN Mobs, March 2010 "We talk to these folks… so I know whose ASS to kick." — Obama on the private sector, June 2010 "Argue with neighbors, Get in their face!," - President Barack Obama" "If you get hit, we will punch back twice as hard," - President Barack Obama" "I don't want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry."- President Barack Obama" "Punish your enemies"- President Barack Obama" "We talk to these folks…so I know whose ASS to kick." - President Barack Obama" "I'm itching for a fight." - President Barack Obama" "Hand-to-hand combat"- President Barack Obama" "A Republican majority in Congress would mean "hand-to-hand combat" on Capitol Hill for the next two years, threatening policies Democrats have enacted to stabilize the economy," — Obama, October 6, 2010 |
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10 Jan 11 - 06:26 PM (#3071692) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Lighter I'll repeat my previous question. |
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10 Jan 11 - 07:07 PM (#3071716) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Lox Any sources for those quotes pdq? |
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10 Jan 11 - 07:08 PM (#3071717) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Lox (though I guess most of them are probably accurate) |
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10 Jan 11 - 07:28 PM (#3071726) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: John P I too would like to repeat Lighter's question: Regardless of the killer's thought processes, the harm in "toning it down" is what precisely? |
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10 Jan 11 - 07:44 PM (#3071736) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Bobert Don't worry about it, Lox... The right has hundreds of people scrambling to dig thru every conceivable thing that any leftist has ever said... I mean, hey, they have all the $$$$$$$ so they will dig and dig and dig and before they are done they will have Obama himself shooting the congresswoman... They will defend their 40 years of terrorism any way they can because it is all they have... Nuthin' else... Just terrorism!!! Not one fucking idea... Just terrorism!!! B~ |
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10 Jan 11 - 07:47 PM (#3071739) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Bobert BTW, Lox... If you want the sum total of the shit coming outta these hundreds of right wing researchers then read pdq... He is tied "right" into it and yer gonna get the very latest pile... B~ |
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10 Jan 11 - 07:53 PM (#3071742) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: pdq The truth really bothers B-pert. Tough shit. |
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10 Jan 11 - 08:03 PM (#3071747) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: pdq "And to Bobert, who started this thread, and some of the rest of the folks here: I don't believe that most rational people like hanging around with folks who are pissed off, and ranting, and belittling people. The ones who do are your fellow haters. You're scary. You portray yourselves in a way that makes you seem you have no love or kindness in your hearts. I've met some of you, and you don't seem like haters in Real Life. Is this the real you I've met, or is it the real you that comes out in the rhetoric? Anyone who might have wanted to sow seeds of hatred and anger in the American public has found fertile ground, and the shoots grow. If you want to put those sprouts in the sun and water them, well, it's your heart. I just wonder what you think you'll harvest." ~ Jeri |
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10 Jan 11 - 08:48 PM (#3071773) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: GUEST,TIA PDQ misses one big point. None of the Obama quotes target a specific ideology, nor a specific political party, let alone a specific person. They are common metaphors. The right wing hate and incitement most certainly do have specific targets. They use actual threats, not just metaphor. Now go search the right wing blogs for quotes that prove me wrong. I am waiting...... |
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10 Jan 11 - 08:54 PM (#3071775) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Bobert No, pdq... The truth bothers you... You are part of the problem here... You smugly sit in front of yer little corporate, right winged, highly financed $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ blogs and relay any of their twisted half truths and outright lies as if these so-called factoids mean anything in the real world... Problem is that you and yer right winged highly financed ar4e the problem with America... It's 24/7 spin for the right winged corporatist that you bow down that is the prtoblem... IOt is the reason why the working class hasn't seen any real agin in income in 35 years... It is the reason why the US went to Iraq... It is the reason why we have the higest incarceration rate in the civilized world... No, pdq... Your team has run the country into the abyss and now you want to li9e and distort you way outta "personal responsibility" for having done so??? Beam me up, Scotty... The failures have just held a gun to the teachers head demandin' that their grade be turned into A's... B~ |
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10 Jan 11 - 08:56 PM (#3071776) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Lox I was looking forward to those sources though ... ... perhaps PDQ got those quotes in an e.mail? I have no way of knowing tell he tells. |
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10 Jan 11 - 09:28 PM (#3071786) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Bobert The facts are the the ACLU had been taking cases going back into the 60's... The fact is that there is no federal case that forced Reagan to deinstitutionalize... What we have here from pdq is alot of right winged blog mythology that bears no resemblance to reality... This is how these things happen, folks... You start with lies and build on them like a 8 tiered wedding cake and at the end of the day you have a house of cards and another nutball being led by the nose by the Glen Becks and Sarah Palins to do yet another stupid un-human horrified event... This, however, will be stopped by its own inertia ... The right lives by the ****lie**** and it will over time be consumed by its own mythology... You can write that down 'cause it will happen... You can only live a lie but so long... B~ |
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10 Jan 11 - 10:06 PM (#3071806) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Janie One can feel passionately and express those feelings without being inflammatory. One can strongly disagree, or even strongly dislike without demonizing the opposite view, party or person. Jeri, stop making sense! |
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10 Jan 11 - 10:29 PM (#3071814) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Jeri Doesn't do any good when people keep gouging away at it. A real test for our political leaders, By Gloria Borger, CNN Senior Political Analys Washington (CNN) -- It is probably some form of poetic justice that, in reacting to the attempted murder of a congresswoman and the murder of a judge, some of the political discourse has devolved into an unhelpful and unenlightening argument that goes something like this: It's your fault; no, it's your fault. |
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10 Jan 11 - 10:33 PM (#3071816) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Janie Eyup. |
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10 Jan 11 - 10:34 PM (#3071817) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Jeri Sorry this is late: thanks, Janie. |
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10 Jan 11 - 10:36 PM (#3071818) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: GUEST,TIA PDQ got those from the right wing blogosphere/email chain. I have gotten that exact list six times today. Yes, I read everything. All sides. |
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10 Jan 11 - 10:36 PM (#3071819) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Beer Very sad, truly. I mean what is taking place on this thread. Should we not be all on the same side? Janie, your post is right on. ad. |
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10 Jan 11 - 10:57 PM (#3071834) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: GUEST,TIA "Should we not be all on the same side?" No. We should not be as it is currently divided. I am on the side of non-violence. In deed, word, and thought. All are welcomne on *my* side, but it will require refudiation of differing views. |
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10 Jan 11 - 11:16 PM (#3071838) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Beer I have a feeling TIA that the "Other side" is also for no-violence. |
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11 Jan 11 - 05:05 AM (#3071940) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Lox "Doesn't do any good when people keep gouging away at it." The problem with modern politics, in particular the reason for the current polarization of politics, isn't too much debate, but a lack of it. Healthy democracy depends on the electorate participating. All issues, ESPECIALLY the sensitive ones, need to be fully debated. This idea that we should all stop arguing for fear that it might turn into violence is giving in to the tactics of fear and intimidation. If you stop debating to avoid violence, then you prove that there is a culture of terror developing and that you are its first victim. Millions of people have died protecting these essential freedoms, and to give them up now because others are trying to scare you to do so is to allow the ideologies that they fought against to regain strength and take hold in the collective consciousness once more. You absolutely MUST NOT stop debating - whatever you do. This isn't about hatred of people, its about recognizing the power of an evil idea and standing up to it and exposing it every time you see it. It doesn't matter who vocalizes it - ordinary men and women have, on mass, been driven to do unspeakable things by ideas that have taken root in their minds. So no offence to anyone on this planet, but if you are the mouthpiece for destructive hate filled ideologies, I must take an adversarial stance against you - not because II dislike you, but because the idea must be met and exposed for what it really is. DO NOT BOW TO FEAR OR TERROR! Speak your mind and tell the truth. |
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11 Jan 11 - 07:25 AM (#3072001) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: GUEST,Alan Whittle speaking as an artist who quite often gets asked to 'tone it down', I think your requests are probably in vain. I've got a talent for singing and writing dirty songs. the commentators you seem to be talking about have a talent for abuse. Its hard to 'tone it down' when you're having fun. |
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11 Jan 11 - 08:26 AM (#3072031) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Bobert Lox is correct... Seems had we had more "debate" during the health care reform then people would be happier with the end product even if it would turn out to be the exact bill that passed... The problem is that the Repubs didn't want to debate the details... They just didn't want any reform... Now they say they want to replace the bill with a better one... Well, hells bells... Where were they during the writing of the the bill... The ideas that the Dems ended up using that were Repub ideas were from the the 90s Repubs... So, yeah, if the Repubs want to debate policies then, "Bring it on"... But they don't operate like that... What they do is churn away with their massive propaganda... That's not debate... That is brainwashing... World of difference between the two... Yeah, time for some real debates based on real facts that can be verified and not mythology that the bloggers on the right wished were real facts... B~ |
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11 Jan 11 - 09:37 AM (#3072093) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Lox I believe that freedom of the press should be clarified as freedom to dissenimate any information that can be supported evidentially. This already exists in the form of libel laws, but they do not prohibit the dissemination of false information, they only allow the victim of a smear to financial recompense and a public apology. Often though, the trial goes unreported and the apology is reported in a small article on the back page while the smear was publisghed on the front page. I believe that a good solution would be an "ASMO" or anti social misinformation order, which would place a ban on a journalist or newspaper that was proved, in court, to be deliberately producing false information either without checking their sources or indeed without bothering to refer to any source, but merely fabricating facts out of thin air. This of course would have to be governed by strict guidelines concening evidence as any other prosecution would. Breach of an ASMO could result in imprisonment for whoever was responsible for that breach, be they individual or in charge of an organization. Opiniions would have to be clearly labelled as such, and opinons based on no evidence would have to be prefaced with the disclaimer that they were merely opinions and nothing more. |
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11 Jan 11 - 10:13 AM (#3072120) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Greg F. RE: It's your fault; no, it's your fault. I see- its really NOBODY"S FAULT, right? A simple Act of God, shit happens kinda thing? Despite the Right-Wing Republican River of Bullshit that's been in flood stage for the last decade or more? Relativism run amok, people. Get a grip. |
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11 Jan 11 - 10:45 AM (#3072144) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Donuel If you happen to be naieve regarding militia groups and right wing gun clubs and anti government survivalists, that is good! If you are not exposed to them it shows you are probably a good person. As Greg says when people participate in a Kristallnacht or Sobibor, Treblinka or the window breaking of various democratic campaign offices, they are usually reasonable people who feel they are performing a civic duty and feel prouc and powerful for doing it. Americans are armed, trained and PRIMED with rhetoric and "memberships" to have a Kristallnacht at the behest of BEck, the NRA, Palin or even John Bohener if they decide to do so. Being naieve about this is a good thing in my book. Once everyone knows someone who is ready to do their active civic duty of violence then you know the hell hounds are loosed. I learnded from the three nightly FOX shows that I am a repugnant hate baiter who has thrown mud in the face of all those who died in the Tuscon rampage because I shamelessly politicized their deaths with my claim that the killer was politically motivated. I am shocked at my behavior and have soul searched for understanding and forgiveness. I listened to the FOX business channels and learned that I should devote myself to INDEMNIFY the BANKS of the United States and to the Republic, which they own, under God, pay them forever and ever and ever. |
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11 Jan 11 - 02:25 PM (#3072301) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Donuel Revisit the point that lox made. Ideas is what makes things like money real... The idea seeds we plant now are for next season's harvest. When you say "no line can be drawn, there is nothing you can do, thats the way it is", you are a failed human being, you are devoid of hope with no imagination or courage to change a single gun attitude. Your thinking is trapped in a box. Today we can change the numbers of victims. Tommorow we could change a single mind. After that we could change attitudes. While you can cage a devil for only a short time and evil will never go extinct, lines can be drawn, have been drawn and need to be made indelible. Also the idea that a misinformation label can be used. I earlier proposed a system similar to what we do for movies, TV shows, cigarettes, and afix a PG or a MS misinformation, or a IV implied violence, XV abject violence...etc For example The PURLITZER assoc. abd THE FCC should be made to obey the findings of a huge panel that concludes which warning labels go where. The panel will have ecumenical, political, city and country representatives. There will have to be two levels of label responses one for immediate response and another for a later finding. The people who do truth in campaign work and other fact checking organizations who already have credibility will be the first to undertake such a respondsibility. Anyway thinking of which seeds to plant a what ideas to use to actually do something is the most important thing we can do. |
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11 Jan 11 - 02:35 PM (#3072314) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Bobert Better go hide in the3 woods, 'er somethin, Donuel 'cause they sho nuff will be lookin' fir ya'... BTW, if they catch you, don't do the head shaving thing... It's real stupid... B~ |
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11 Jan 11 - 02:51 PM (#3072326) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Lox Donuel, Maybe the most important idea to plant is the very idea of understanding the power of ideas. I also like the idea of different magazines/newspapers having labels/warnings indicating their level of reliability. Warning: This news channel is an "info-tainment" channel and the information it provides is likely to be biased and to be selective and unreliable as a provider of accurate news. Then you will have no more "Sun" and "national Enquirer" masquerading as serious newspapers, unles they clean up their act. |
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11 Jan 11 - 07:01 PM (#3072511) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Donuel Bobert, shh im already in the woods piggy backin on someones wireless... Iffn you havent heard, the fundamentalists across the street have already attempted murder. Doncha remember the fire bombs? Or did you think that wasnt real? I got a back up plan though ;`) here's my manisfesto Starting with today Glen Beck taught me to restore America by standing up and taking my country back and then have the courage to cowboy up and change the CONSTITUTION. My history with talk radio was only spotty with hearing Rush Limbaugh a few times before the Iraq invasion. But by the time we started shock and awe I was glued to WMAL and learned that Iraq had less than 2% of the world's oil and that nerve gas and nuclear weapons in the hands of Saddam Hussein was insane. I began to depend on talk radio which was now going by the name of shock radio. By listening religiously I got the translations of what George Bush really meant and understood the great changes in America in which 9-11 became like the year 0 in which everything has changed. I learned about the need for torture, the patriot act, domestic spying, tip lines to report my neighbors and that a person can choose to be a true patriot or a traitor, there is no middle ground. Other countries are either with us or against us. France was against us but it was the Muslim world that was at war with us. They hated us for our FREEDOM. I heard a more ragged edge on talk radio leading up to McCain's election that was even louder than during the war. To put it politely there was a black man running for President who was neither American nor Christian. Still talk radio seemed more consumed with Hillary and her loony lefty feminazis wanting to tear down everything George Bush and Dick Cheney had built. About this time I learned about cheap mortgages borrowing on my home, flipping houses and buying gold coins. When suddenly Wall St. tanked and the lost jobs began in earnest I think talk radio dropped the ball and as a result Barak Hussein Obama somehow got elected. Since then all hell has broken loose, liberals are not just looney anymore they are insane. They are frothing at the mouth. They are trying to kill us. They are not just totally wrong about everything they are evil incarnate. People are starting to stand up. I have learned the office and home addresses of democrats and liberals who need their windows kicked in as well as their teeth since they never shut the hell up. Obama lovers think our bible and guns are our plan B. They are our plan A foundation. Talk radio has taught me that election fraud by ACORN, Ohio and Illinois is why we have a foreign black man in the White House. Now he has already set up death panels, cut and run from Iraq and is bringing back the National Socialist Party and have begun building concentration camps. We have to stand up America, we have to be armed and dangerous, we can't let a tyrant like Obama brain wash our children in school and take away our guns at home. Today Obama has taken away all the jobs, bailed out the banks and bought GM and other companies for their own socialist party. Fifteen minutes after the Tucson rampage by the pot smoking lefty, the insane liberals began exploiting the tragedy for their political gains. They want our guns, they want to end free speech for talk radio. Everything is coming to pass that Rush, Hannity, Levin, Beck and O'Reilly have prophesized. We have to fight back. Remember like G. Gordon Liddy says, "shoot for the head, jack booted thugs wear body armor". And Buy Gold! |
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11 Jan 11 - 07:28 PM (#3072526) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Bobert Man, you need WPFW, 89.3, Donuel... Only radio station to listen to in D.C.... Don't forget to get all smoked up before you "turn it on" or it won't make any sense to ya'... And mums the word on where yer hidin' out... B~ |
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11 Jan 11 - 10:40 PM (#3072630) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Donuel I listen to it right after WAMU and 90.9 Amy Goodman is a good egg. |
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12 Jan 11 - 12:13 AM (#3072661) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Janie Watched Jon Stewart's 1/10 broadcast tonight, and as usual, he talked sense. I think it is absurd to blame anyone but the shooter for this atrocity. It is still a good idea to "tone it down," imo. Although I am not much of a debater myself, I agree with you Lox, that debate is a good thing. However, I think much of what gets called debate, here on Mudcat as well as in the larger world and the media is not debate. I will interject here, simply because there is no where else to do so, that I am saddened and hurt for the many amazing people I know through my work who are mentally ill, "unbalanced," "crazy," or "deranged," and who already deal with the stigma of major mental illness who are at no risk of harming others, and in fact, are at greater risk of being themselves harmed than is the general population. |
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12 Jan 11 - 12:49 AM (#3072674) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: GUEST,Jon I think it is absurd to blame anyone but the shooter for this atrocity. I don't - or at least I don't think it should stop at sort of "he was a nut so it's OK". Personally, I think blaming Palin (I'm UK and tend towards the left btw) is a bit of a stretch but perhaps it is time to discuss the language used at times by politicians? It seems the guy was already identified by some as having problems. Perhaps one could question the care, support and reporting? Then, as seems to be happening in another thread, perhaps it is time to question the gun laws? |
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12 Jan 11 - 05:31 AM (#3072759) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Lox Donuel, I think your last post stands as one of the best bits of satire I have read in a long time. Just dark enough to stop you laughing, but just witty enough to kee you reading. That one goes in my "rant" hall of fame. |
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12 Jan 11 - 07:51 AM (#3072831) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Bobert Had a few clients like that, Janie... Lotta of them did get hurt... Couple got outright killed and one very sweet guy killed himself... Goes with the territory... Very sad... I agree with you that this guy probably was so deranged that he probably wasn't paying too much attention to the election rhetoric... But this does draw attention to how we frame issues in campaigns and we need to find new ways that are more civil... Myself included... Alan, Check yer email... B~ |
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12 Jan 11 - 10:51 AM (#3072957) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Donuel John Boehner teared up as he read word for word a spea\ech about the shooting. He read so carefully that he used the wrong pronoun he for Gabrille 6 times. This happened only when her nickname Gabe was used, which points to the writer not being familiar with ms. Giffords. John must have been too busy to write it himself. Gov Brewer similarly said "She is more than a colleage, Ms. 'Gilford' is my friend." |
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12 Jan 11 - 02:23 PM (#3073175) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Lighter I heard Boehner's speech. When he said "Gabe," he was referring to Gabe Zimmerman, one of the dead. And yes, he did tear up several times. |
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12 Jan 11 - 06:23 PM (#3073351) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Richard Bridge Every time I think I have the measure of the depravity of Palin she utters some fresh outrage that plumbs new depths. "Blood Libel" for goodness sake! There is no accuracy in the analogy and the Jewish community is rightly furious at her arrogance in stealing the phrase an ignorance in not recognising its importance. |
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12 Jan 11 - 06:55 PM (#3073387) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Greg F. Ignorance is dear Sara's first name. Her middle name is I Don't Give A Shit. |
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12 Jan 11 - 07:54 PM (#3073419) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Lox I was unaware until now what "bllod libel" was. I have just looked it up. Palins insinuation is a continuation on the current right wing trend of comparing Obamacare with Nazi Germany. It also insinuates that those who would criticize her and people like Beck and limbaugh for using inflammatory ideas are comparable to anti-semites. This is consistent with the current right wing propaganda. There is some scary shit happening in the USA right now! |
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12 Jan 11 - 10:15 PM (#3073472) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Donuel allow me to repeat a post here in the spirit of toing it down. Gabby opened her eyes tonight. If she can open her eyes, well then perhaps we all can. At the end of these 5 sad days I believe I have finally opened my eyes. Certainly there was no one more partisan than eye for saying within minutes of the shooting that the Repbulican shock and hate campaigns were the direct cause of this slaughter. I was wrong. My cries came from having a 10 year old psychic wound ripped open. All the collected insults to sensibility of contentious words and even worse from a hateful silence, the kind of silence that came from Sarah Palin when people at her rallies said "Hang Obama" or "KILL'EM"...and she stood silent. The pain of having to to defend against a tide of people who wanted to elevate torture as a collective good. All of the real and imagined assaults on sense and sensibility all came flooding down and blamed BEck and talk radio for the rampage. It was not the reason. My partisanship and personal pain blinded me for a time. Wile I can not go as far as Gov. Brewer and claim the reason why will be an eternal mystery, at least I can let go of a laser thin focus of blaming a roomgul of propoganda preachers. Though my physical eyes are fading I need to see with better eyes and see through the walls, divisions, lies and partitions in my community, nation and the world to do what can be done for greater understanding and fellowship. |
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12 Jan 11 - 11:13 PM (#3073488) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Lox: "There is some scary shit happening in the USA right now!" DO NOT PARTICIPATE!!! GfS |
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12 Jan 11 - 11:20 PM (#3073490) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity This is a piece written from God's point of view, to America. I've spoken to some of the performers, and they claim that when performed in America, many people have tears running down their faces. Take it in! Rather moving. GfS |
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13 Jan 11 - 05:06 AM (#3073581) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Lox GfS, No offence to you. Look at this through my telescope. __________________ America is in political turmoil - the solution? 1. Don't participate. 2. "feel" the emotion of a song about America which has no meaningful content. You know what? America has been heading further and further down that road for years. There is an absence of political debate beause of a combination of "soundbite" political debate, all performed to a soundtrack of weepy, stirring, tear jerking, meaningless music sung by "perfect" looking women playing stereotyped characters (in this case "celtic women"). America thinks it exists in a disney movie, with all the drama, tears and over the top emotional manipulation of the viewer as could possibly be contrived. Its the same here in the UK - people are so addicted to getting their "cry-gasm" fix that they willingly get swept along in the utterly fake manufactured emotion of the X-Factor or American Idol. Movies and News have become uindistinguishable as purveyors of emotional Porn - you can cut to the money scene and feel the same way as if you'd watched the whole movie - all thats necessary is the music and the hammed up acting. Politics and Romance are not good bed fellows. I would go as far as to say that if the devil is in politics, then his worst face is his romantic one. The one that inspires Catholics to bomb protestants, and Protestants to shoot catholics, and the BNP to target minoriities, and Minorities to hate whites, and that inspires Americans to save the world, and that inspires Islamists to blow themselves up and all those aroud them, or Israelis to flatten Gaza. This is the real world. The deaths are real. They are usually innocents and often children. Miss Gifford is fighting for her life, but a 9 year old girl died. It is not time for the debate to be toned down, but time for the emotional posturing to be turned OFF, and for the self indulgent tear duct masturbation to be dealt with by a shrink. Is this deliberate hypnotism of the masses? or do we choose it for oureselves? Probably a bit of both - one isn't possible without the other. But the answer is NOT to stop the debate and start getting all teary whilst coaxing out the emotions with the warblings of a Simon Cowell style marketing scam, but the exact opposite. |
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13 Jan 11 - 11:55 AM (#3073762) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: GUEST,999 I don`t wish to add fuel to the fire which seems to be burning quite nicely thank you without my help. Have any of you folks seen the `booking` picture of the shooter. Man, he don`t look too well wrapped to begin with. I doubt he could differentiate between the parties anyway. Both Reps and Dems have contributed to the rhetoric of hate and that`s been obvious for a decade now. I fail to see why anyone would express surprise that guns are used for killing people when the US has been in lotsa wars--both justified and unjustified. The US has become a much more repressive society thus opening the doors for idiots to froth at the mouth even while they present it as news or religion, when in fact it`s neither. Only goodness accompanied by smarts can combat a type of thinking that makes a topic`s volatility replace substance. Just don`t buy into it. I think the greatest contribution people could make to themselves is to destroy their TV sets. Too much violence, too much crap and obviously, too much hatred. And I think we all could do better, even if only on this thread. Guns ain`t going away and neither are people who want to use them as a murder weapon. No reason for us to slag each other. Have a good day, all. |
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13 Jan 11 - 12:00 PM (#3073766) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Don(Wyziwyg)T A re-post from the other thread;- ""Subject: RE: BS: Stl thnk we dn't nd mre restrct gn laws? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM Date: 12 Jan 11 - 04:31 PM So on BBC news tonight we have it straight from the Mare's mouth! Gun totin' Sarah Palin says the Media are to blame for the hatred that gets Democrat congressmen shot in supermarket car parks. Crap, Sarah. You encouraged this kind of action, and your supporters intimidate others by takin' Old Betsy" to election meetings and polling booths!! It was only a matter of time!! Memo to the Media:- Stop reporting what Sarah says, or the blood of her political opponents will be on your hands. Don T."" It does seem that Sarah wants to put somebody else in the frame, so she obviously feels the need to distance herself from this atrocity, hardly likely if she didn't feel some degree of responsibility. Bottom line for me is this: Sarah and her pals are the only ones painting targets on political opponents and openly carrying arms to election meetings and polling stations, and Sarah and her pals are the ones wanting to tone it down. Whatever Jared Loughner's politics, he was presented with just the kind of enthusiastic encouragement, along with exactly the kind of role model, certain to elicit a response from a mentally disturbed and gun happy misfit. I think that most psychologists would agree that in those circumstances anybody who had previously upset him might be in mortal danger, and there was a report that he resented the fact that Gabrielle Giffords had not taken a question from him seriously. Q.E.D. |
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13 Jan 11 - 12:11 PM (#3073771) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Lox...when I posted "Do not participate' I was referring to the CONTRIVED political divisions....and that being said, Yes, a little more attention to God(Love), and opening up the hearts of people to that love IS the true waging of war against the 'synthesized' political discourse that this country is experiencing! As to your, attention given to "America thinks it exists in a Disney movie, with all the drama, tears and over the top emotional manipulation of the viewer as could possibly be contrived." Yes, America is living in a 'movie'...scripted by the 'news' sources, and their spins..so Americans can actually LIVE in the 'docudrama'...brought you you as 'infotainment' It happens when a people has affluence, and too much spare time on their hands!! Personally speaking, it appears that a lot of the political discourse here, is nothing more that a panacea for the 'bored'..with very little attention to what the REAL enemy is! If a song can touch a heart, why not??.........A lot of folks act like they've forgotten that they have one!!!..and it should be connected to each other....Wouldn't you say? GfS |
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13 Jan 11 - 02:31 PM (#3073843) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Donuel I would refudiate that Sarah Palin intended to insinuize that the false accussationing of the murderage of the young Christian girl was alledgedly done by Jews to either drink her blood or kinda enslave. I think she just kinda doesn;t know a whole lot, but thats OK cuz theres a whole buncha junk she does know about, you betcha. to the tune Favorite things Pit bulls with lipstick and big mama grizzles dresses from Nordstrum and pissing off lefties There is a lot Sarah Palin can do Just don't you ask her to list them for you When the news stings when the vote swings when she's feelin low she is reminded of favorite things and makes up a new low blow. |
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13 Jan 11 - 02:37 PM (#3073847) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity I'm moved!...............jeez! GfS |
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13 Jan 11 - 06:17 PM (#3073995) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Richard Bridge One of your better posts Donuel. Given that Giffords was herself Jewish and indeed ran in part on that fact, Palin's references to "blood libel" are so extraordinary that I expected them to be even bigger news. I do not know why so few here fasten on it. |
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13 Jan 11 - 08:16 PM (#3074083) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Bobert The worst part about the Palin quote is that it came on the heels of alot of pressure to release a statement and this was the best she could come up with??? I mean, this was almost a re-do and she still bungled it... Definitely not presidential material here... B~ |
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13 Jan 11 - 10:03 PM (#3074146) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Jeez..Some of you guys are more focused on Sarah Palin, than those supporting her!!..Then you scratch your heads and wonder, why is she such a threat?? YOU are giving her the power!!! GfS |
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14 Jan 11 - 01:23 AM (#3074199) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Donuel Hey I don't have to tone down cartoons |
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14 Jan 11 - 10:18 PM (#3074886) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Hey, Donuel..I just posted to you on another thread...so as somewhat of a reiteration, get free..all the way free, when you play, give it your all...not what is left over from the political divisions.....you can't be 100% there, when this shit is nagging at you. Peace, GfS |
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14 Jan 11 - 11:17 PM (#3074904) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Donuel 99,812 crazy lone gunman have killed from 2 to 30 people each since 2001. There is no fatal number high enough to control guns in America Now picture Tucson and the little girl, the last time she got scared. There are no words great enough to control our emotions. |
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15 Jan 11 - 02:23 AM (#3074949) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Richard Bridge 100 |
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15 Jan 11 - 03:35 AM (#3074978) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Donuel, Your point is well understood, and so are your feelings..but I'm telling you, and anyone else who has the ears to hear, if we jump on board the 'anger and retribution train' we have disarmed ourselves of the very thing we have to fight back..and that is speaking to the hearts, and emotions of peace, that lies in most all humans...SOMEWHERE. Being as we are musicians..and some of us even virtuosic, the choice has been entrusted with us, to KNOW what we are supposed to be doing, especially in these times of unrest. It is not to participate in either of the sides, but rather PLAY, with everything that lays within you. Practice, Practice, Practice... till your muscle memory, is locked in..the rest is up to being in touch with the very inner connection, that delivers the images and emotions, that bring peace, to your audience, or listener. If you lock it in, REALLY tight, paying attention to every nano-second of timber, phrasing, and expression..you can speak more effective words, than you'd ever be able to express, in a mere opinion..or anger, indignation, fear, even with a 'righteous' cause. its not just 'chops' but the ability to communicate directly to the central nervous system, of your listeners. The ears are the most direct way into the central nervous system...and what people listen to, directly affects their moods, and thoughts. I know it is a narrow path, to walk with iron discipline,..but, that is the way it came down to some of us..as a gift...use it, to point the way...Not to 'enlisting' in one side or the other,(they both have screws loose!), but rather lift people OUT of the fray, to give them the space to see and think clearly. The rest will come to them...but give them a shot, when they hear your stuff. Give them rest, from all the crap that is inundating everyone! I've said this in total support of your musical calling...and am only sharing with you what works, as you may know, and in no way, am I speaking condescendingly...and I have an idea, that you know what I've said to be true, inside you, as well. Imploring You Passionately,(..'and may the force be with you'!) GfS |
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15 Jan 11 - 03:50 AM (#3074984) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity OOOOOOPs a typo of omission: What I said was: "The ears are the most direct way into the central nervous system...and what people listen to, directly affects their moods, and thoughts" and it should have read: "The ears are the most direct way into the central nervous system...and what people listen to, directly affects their moods, thoughts and BEHAVIOR" Sorry.... GfS |
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15 Jan 11 - 07:47 AM (#3075044) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: GUEST,Bobert on NC There is a world between "retribution" and... ...one's civic responsibility to get angry and to turn that anger into real policy changes that makes us more civilized... It's called *agents for change* and that is what Donuel has been all about going back as long as I have known him... I mean, the guy has an immense talent and to not use it in a manner that pushes for needed policy changes would be a waste... Maybe a little more of that is needed from everyone 'cause 30,000 deaths from handguns every year, the assassinations of elected leaders and/or the support of folks who pretend to have the country' best interests at heart when all they really want it to have their egos stroked is not only lazy but down-right selfish... Keep in truckin', Donuel!!! Gotta go... Long drive home today... B~ |
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15 Jan 11 - 02:03 PM (#3075236) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity So, Bobert, would you rather be Lee or Grant?....or Beethoven or Bach?....or maybe,....yourself?????? GfS |
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15 Jan 11 - 06:15 PM (#3075363) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Bobert Of the list of folks I'd take "me"... Why??? |
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15 Jan 11 - 09:09 PM (#3075439) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Dorothy Parshall This has been a disturbing and thought-provoking thread. Disturbing because it is full of the vituperative rhetoric that is the cause IMO of much that is wrong in the USA and the world today - and probably for centuries. Thought-provoking because I am currently working on trying to define for my Quaker community the reason why I am distressed by the recurrent and very new use of the word "discussion" as a replacement for the traditional term "consideration". In this thread, I am seeing an even more difficult word - debate, another step beyond discussion although closely akin to it and, too often IMO, where "discussion" leads. If we are truly concerned about the negative rhetoric being used in the world, do we not need to be looking at how we, ourselves, conduct our threads, and other interactions? If so, how can we accomplish that? The reason I am concerned that the traditional term is used is because words do affect the way we perceive the process. Consideration has the denotation of thoughtfulness (amongst other synonyms). Discussion, debate, argument - the downhill slope is not necessary but too often occurs. And certainly has in this thread, as it does in many. Some of us are looking for a non-violent approach to life, others choose to be violent in their written word. As we learn more and more about our interconnections as human beings and considerably more about how the brain and its DNA are affected by traumas of various sorts, I look at people with so-called mental illness in a very different way. In the midst of the violent rhetoric and feelings flying around in the air, the ether, the sound waves, and in peoples very beings, it seems to me not only possible but probable that someone who in open to those "vibes" ( I use that as a catchall for what I am trying to say, knowing full well someone out there in mudville will take umbrage) can be affected without hearing the verbiage, without being aware they are hearing it, with very little actual awareness of what is going on, they can be negatively affected by all this negativity flying around them. (Wow, what a run on sentence! REad it again if you need to do so.) I do not believe this poor guy who shot those folks was unaffected by the environment in which he has been living. The rhetoric which needs to be "toned down" out there is affecting every one of us. So does the rhetoric here on mudcat. When I "sent a letter to Sarah Palin" through one of my on line orgs, this is what I sent: If there is to be peace in the world, There must be peace in the nations. If there is to be peace in the nations, There must be peace in the cities. If there is to be peace in the cities, There must be peace between neighbors. If there is to be peace between neighbors, There must be peace in the home. If there is to be peace in the home, There must be peace in the heart. Lao Tzu And it needs to start here. And I am prepared for whatever, whoever, throws my way as a result of this post. |
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16 Jan 11 - 01:04 AM (#3075496) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Dorothy Parshall: "If there is to be peace in the world, There must be peace in the nations. If there is to be peace in the nations, There must be peace in the cities. If there is to be peace in the cities, There must be peace between neighbors. If there is to be peace between neighbors, There must be peace in the home. If there is to be peace in the home, There must be peace in the heart. Lao Tzu And it needs to start here. And I am prepared for whatever, whoever, throws my way as a result of this post." Are you ready for....>>>>>>.......................>>>>>>>>............ .........>>>>>>>>.......................>>>>>>>>>..................>>> ....................>>>>>>>>>>>.......................>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.. ...>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..................>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ..................>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>...................>>>>>> >>>>>.................................>>>>>>>>>>>>>................... ...................................................................... .......>>V V V YOU ARE WONDERFUL!!!! GfS |
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16 Jan 11 - 05:17 PM (#3075914) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Donuel I have learned today that a gruntle is a truthful gentle sincere stroke of one's ego. It is an easy thing to give. Without it people are disgruntled and can go crazy from the outside in. Knowledge, music and the pursuit of peace makes people go sane from the inside out. |
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16 Jan 11 - 05:37 PM (#3075924) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Taconicus Is there a way to block a particular thread so I don't have to even think about its existance? So many posts here are full of such demonstrably false statements, and of outright partisan hatemongering, that I want to shout that's not so and then say why... but then I'd become part of the problem. Why can't we just talk about music, and leave the hatemongering and yelling to the politicians and political head-bangers? |
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16 Jan 11 - 06:03 PM (#3075947) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Richard Bridge Because then nothing stops them |
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16 Jan 11 - 06:53 PM (#3075974) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Ebbie "Why can't we just talk about music, and leave the hatemongering and yelling to the politicians and political head-bangers?" Taconicus My answer would be three-fold: You Another. harder, answer is that even musicians are not one-dimensional; we all live in a larger world. Thirdly, on occasion the "politicians and political head=bangers" are us. See Answer Two. |
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16 Jan 11 - 06:57 PM (#3075975) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Ed T Well, this guy tried toning down with some fake drugs. And, what did he get? A year in jail for not selling drugs and preying on desperate addicts. Go figure that one? Toning it down |
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16 Jan 11 - 08:34 PM (#3076034) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Bobert BTW, as a by-product of the Tuscon shootings it would appear that one heck of a lot of folks are "tonin' it down"... The op-ed in this morning's Washington Post by John McCain certainly had all the right words to heal the rift between him and Obama... Senator Udall has started quite a stir with his announcement that he would sit with the Repubs at the State of the Union Address which, in turn, has gotten 20 or so other representatives and senators to the same... I see a lot of progress here... B~ |
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16 Jan 11 - 11:19 PM (#3076128) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Taconicus, I know what you mean..I've gotten sucked into a few myself. What is somewhat interesting though, is seeing some of these 'musician's' points of view; is really eye opening to how shallow some of them are! Their music, or at least the lyrics that some of them may be writing, is more than likely just as 'depthy'(?)...At least it gives you a clue, about their insights, and more than likely, their musical insights, as well. On the other hand, some might have something interesting to say...I hope it might come out in the music, more than in here!! GfS |
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17 Jan 11 - 10:15 AM (#3076369) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Bobert How about posting some of yer music, GfinS??? |
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17 Jan 11 - 10:31 AM (#3076388) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: John P GfS, Here you are, trying to say something positive, and you still can't manage to avoid flinging insults around like fish. Should we make judgments about the quality of your music (and lyrics!) based on your grasp of the English language and it's syntax and punctuation? And speaking of judging musicians' artistic abilities by reading what they have to say about current events, have you ever heard the old saw and the pot and the black kettle? Just out of curiosity, what conclusions would you draw about the music of someone who insults others at every opportunity and who doesn't believe that everyone should enjoy the same civil rights as himself? |
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17 Jan 11 - 10:32 AM (#3076389) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: John P oops. "old saw about the pot and the black kettle" |
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17 Jan 11 - 01:09 PM (#3076503) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Donuel In a way it was wonderful that the nation reacted with such shock and outrage. Imagine how awful it would be if the country was so numb as to dismiss the "rampage" in 48 hours like usual. |
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19 Jan 11 - 05:02 PM (#3078178) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Dorothy Parshall It is good that we humans are not so jaded as to be numb to the worlds ills. Few of us are, however, one-dimensional. We have good days and not so good ones. There are things which push our nasty buttons, things which hurt us, times when we can cope .... I sincerely believe that we each do the best we can at any given moment. The same person may write beautiful music, meaningful lyrics and then stuff we perceive as dreadful. And what one of us loves another may detest. Tolstoy said it very well (please excuse Tolstoy as he predates PC language!) : "One of the most widespread superstitions is that every man has his own special, definite qualities; that a man is kind, cruel, wise, stupid, energetic, apathetic, etc. Men are not like that . . . Men are like rivers; the water is the same in each, and alike in all; but every river is narrow here, is more rapid there, here slower, there broader, now clear, now cold, now dull, now warm. It is the same with men. Every man carries in himself the germs of every human quality and sometimes one manifests itself, sometimes another, and the man often becomes unlike himself—while still remaining the same man." — Leo Tolstoy May we allow and respect ourselves and each of us in our human-ness. |
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19 Jan 11 - 07:33 PM (#3078282) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Bobert Thanks for the Tolstoy, Dorothy P... I love him... He got alot very much correct... And yeah, we do all have our good days and our bad days... I'd like to think that most of mine are good 'uns but, hey, that's the way I try to look at like in general... B~ |
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20 Jan 11 - 05:08 PM (#3078894) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Donuel Posts are becoming so high brow and close to the heart of truth its embarrasing to make additions. Yes the power of ideas is immense. The peace we want in the world starts inside. Responding with no response however does very little. Take a look at Speak John Boehner. He has refused to eat with Obama and has been a no show for 3 State Dinners. He would not go to the memorial in AZ. When Ms. Giffords complained directly to Boehner for the verbal and graphic threats being made against her along with the vandalizing of her office with bricks and stones, he made no comment or offer to help her. YOU SEE http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/matt-taibbi-the-crying-shame-of-john-boehner-20110105?page=3 John Boehner's last election made sure his opponent would not be able to show his face on the street. Because thats what he told his supporters to do! His campaign posted threats and verbal appeals for Republicans to stick by their guns. He posted his opponents home address and pictures of his wife and two small boys -Don't let show his face- was the Boehner campaign slogan. Boehner was to told his face to stop the bullshit I have two little boys in that house... Well it doesn't matter now does it? Yes Gavrielle Giffords also coplained to Boehner and do you know what he did???? He made sure that she would be the one to read the first ammendment pof the constitution out loud, to drive in the point that he or she can't do a damn thing about speech. If there is a polar opposite person from me in this world, it is John Boehner. PS He served less than two weeks in the Army, oops we are not suppose to say it out loud. The new civility has more or less evaporated in the house Congress already. |
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20 Jan 11 - 05:44 PM (#3078926) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Dorothy Parshall How appropriate that Giffords got to read the 1st amendment! Too bad more people do not realize: It is better to be silent and thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt of it! (source unknown) or more colloquial: Engage brain before putting tongue in gear. I was raised on many mottoes: "your freedom ends at my nose" does not cover freedom of speech but "I don't agree with a word you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it." does. We are each responsible for what we say. We are also responsible for how we react to what others say. We are responsible for our own feelings and our own actions. We cannot blame others for how they "make" us feel. Unfortunately, there are people who do not understand the above, and people who could not adhere to it even if they did understand. Each individual needs to determine for them self how they wish to affect others - by both word and deed. When we throw our words out there into the pond of life, do they make positive ripples or negative ripples. Boehner may never realize the negativity he projects. Giffords is certainly aware of the positive effect her words and actions have. Yet they were each elected to office. That is a puzzlement. |
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20 Jan 11 - 06:22 PM (#3078962) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Bobert "Boehner may never realize the negativity he projects" Hell, no, he wont!!! Actually the entire Republican Party has used negativity for the last 2 years as a means of whipping up the looniest among US and it looks as if that this continues to be their plan... Too bad that the left no longer has any real access to the microphone to offer an alternative but the left are the folks who work in Boss Hog's factories, and teach Boss Hogs kids and fix Boss Hog's cars and paint his house and those kinds of jobs just don't pay the kinda money where there is much left to contribute to the advertising that is required to just "break even"... No, what we know is that in over 90% of all campaign the candidate who spends the most wins... The corporations and the Chamber of Commerce will be sure to it that democracy will never again raise its ugly head... They saw what could happen in the 60s and they have sho nuff put the patches in place to be damned sure that that never happens again... B~ |
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20 Jan 11 - 06:54 PM (#3078994) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Dorothy Parshall Well, Bobert, things seem to be pretty grim right now. The right is in ascendance and we feel almost disenfranchised in a way, don't we? The house has voted to repeal the health care bill and .... Do we have the option of giving up? NO! I belong to moveon.org which keeps on keeping on and there are other groups keeping the faith. I see and share things on FB and do not waste my energy on the far right or on worrying about it. Letters to the editor, blogs on the computer, comments on newspaper articles, talking with people reasonably - all these have an effect. No other options that I see at the moment. |
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21 Jan 11 - 12:57 AM (#3079167) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Donuel Nicely said, what?...Ohh, its Dorthy Parshall, I thought someone was channeling Dorthy Parsons. anyway If we could do a remake of Its a Wonderful Life, Lord Boehner would make a believable Mr. Potter. On the other hand he could do a convincing Uncle Charlie after a few bourbons. Ever notice how weepy Uncle Charlie gets after he's had a few? Who would be George? It would be hard watching Barak go through a break down though. All that hope and yes we can crap diving into an icy river? Brr, Its sad to even think about it. I do love the ending. "Listen daddy, its Art Bell, everytime Art Bell rings, Sharon Angle gets right wing nuts to excersize their 2nd ammendment rights. (fade to black with gun shots and screams) Thats a wrap folks Its time for the George Noory Show. He is sort of a combination of a human Ambien and Pat Robertson. |
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21 Jan 11 - 01:22 AM (#3079170) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: J-boy George Noory? He puts me to sleep every ni... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz |
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21 Jan 11 - 02:57 PM (#3079552) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Stringsinger "ideology" is different from people. To get angry at another person for their beliefs is not the same as getting annoyed at the beliefs themselves. "Toning it down" doesn't mean compromising basic ideas about the negative effects of ideologies. Violence solves nothing! But being silent in the face of injustice is not useful if it is called "toning it down". Ideologies carried to extremes, what is being done in the current American House of Representatives, does set an atmosphere for violence and "toning it down" will not stop the reprehensible actions of the White Ring. "Toning it down" is a simplistic device used by those who are in denial about the injustices being served to the American people in the name of jingoistic and propagandistic jargon. There may be perfectly nice people in the Greedy Old Party and as human- being-people, they need to be treated with respect however as G.O.P. reps they need to be disagreed with and told just how little concern for humanity that they really have. As Olbermann says, "Hey Boehner, where are the jobs?" This is an issue of ideology not of the Speaker himself. |
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21 Jan 11 - 04:10 PM (#3079613) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Dorothy Parshall I have trouble imagining anyone on mudcat being silent in the face of injustice! Righteous indignation seems to be the moving force and it can do much when carried out with determination. |
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21 Jan 11 - 10:02 PM (#3079791) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Leo Tolstoy..a man after my own heart.............. "The truth is that the State is a conspiracy designed not only to exploit, but above all to corrupt its citizens ... Henceforth, I shall never serve any government anywhere."--Leo Tolstoy Sound familiar???????????????????????? GfS |
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21 Jan 11 - 10:36 PM (#3079798) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Bobert Gotta love the guy, GfinS... I mean, part of being a contributing member of yer community involves being creative... All stuff ain't about government and that's what Tolstoy was all about... He said that government is the caboose... The rest of the train already gone by... Hey, we all understand that concept... Government is always late... No matter whoes government... Don't much matter... Ours is certainly late... Tolstoy... Gotta love him... B~ |
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21 Jan 11 - 11:08 PM (#3079808) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Been a Leo Tolstoy fan for over 40 years!!..and BTW, he would be telling you EXACTLY what I've been saying on here for about two years, as well!..Oh, and BTW, he was also a Christian. He hated both sides of the corruption, just as I've been saying..and he would NOT supported the 'right' or the 'left'...but concentrated on his art, and the spiritual side of things..AND manifested it through and IN his art!! Jeez, I'm glad he came up, again..I've quoted him, as well, on here..but to no avail....people are just so fucking hung up in phony political posturing..and more often than not, don't know what the hell they're talking about!..I'm telling you,(once again) its ALL a charade!~!!..and the 'two parties' serve the same master!....ask Leo! GfS |
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22 Jan 11 - 12:21 AM (#3079825) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Oh...and while you're wiling away a little time, here, "getcha self a little cultcha" Take the time to read a little Tolstoy!!! See if you can 'get it'..from this guy who wrote during the Russian Revolution! (Gosh, ya' think it might be applicable?) GfS |
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25 Feb 11 - 11:34 AM (#3102651) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: TIA Here's some good "Toning Down" of the violent rhetoric. From....guess which side.... Indiana deputy attorney general out of job after live ammo tweet Man Asks GOP Congressman "Who Is Going To Shoot Obama" In the second linked article, pay very close attention to the GOP Congressman's reply. I would classify it as sympathetic. Certainly not a denunciation in any fashion. |
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25 Feb 11 - 11:51 AM (#3102657) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Bobert Thanks, TIA... Yes, we certainly are in the midst of Republican brown shirt/redneck movement and I sincerely hope that the left will get enough microphone time to show the "moderates" just what is going on... Yes, we know but most "moderates" are clueless because this won't make the news mainstream news cycles... I guess, when some moron actually shoots or shoots at Obama the mainstream media will pay attention... I'd love to have the $$$ the Kock brothers are spending every day to do to them what they are doing to our country... I'd put together a media buy and some ads that would do what the media is supposed to be doing: telling the American people the truth... B~ |
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28 Feb 11 - 10:03 AM (#3104216) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: GUEST,TIA Apparently a 78 year old woman who weighs about 80 pounds is responsible for the USA's economic collapse. At least that's what Glenn Beck's chalk board says. And now she gets so many death threats, she has had to call the FBI. Gotta listen to this to believe it: http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=13410 |
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28 Feb 11 - 10:29 AM (#3104231) Subject: RE: BS: 'Toning it down'... From: Greg F. Its way past time that Beck was institiutionalized- along with those idiotic enough to believe the shit he comes out with. I'm surprised that they remember to eat. |
