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27 Jan 11 - 11:10 AM (#3083363) Subject: Who was Paddy Doyle? From: shipcmo There is an old sailing ship shanty titled "Paddy Doyle", used for "tossing the bunt", that was a common job in the older class of ships that carried single topsails, etc. The phrase goes: " we'll pay Paddy Doyle for his boots!" According to Stan Hugill in his "Shanties from the Seven Seas"; "As to who Paddy Doyle was we have no historical evidence, but probably he was some Liverpool boarding-master from whom a clever seaman had swiped a pair of seaboots,...". Now, I for one cannot believe a seaman of those days had that much of a conscience. Recently I have come upon an article by Fred H. Buryeson in the "Coast Seamen's Journal", June 23, 1909, where he states; "Paddy Doyle, by the way, was a Liverpool shoe-maker, known to all the "packet rats" sailing out of that port for the excellency of his sea-boots, and beloved for his readiness to trust any of the boys for the price of a pair when they were outward bound across "the big pond." Buryeson was on board the "Young America" in 1860. From John Winrow, Assistant Curator, National Museums Liverpool: A Patrick Doyle listed in Gores Liverpool trade directory for 1841 owning a marine store close to the docks, Nelson court,'19, Queen street - stores, 12 and 14, Neptune street. It also lists a Hugh Doyle, boot & shoemaker, 79 Paradise Street, again not far from the docks. |
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27 Jan 11 - 11:26 AM (#3083375) Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle? From: Sailor Ron Wonderful, but did'he' pay Paddy Doyle? |
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27 Jan 11 - 12:22 PM (#3083412) Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle? From: breezy 'We'll pay Paddy Doyle for his boots' implies they would have at a future date, maybe they did. Let's believe they were honourable men, as opposed to the times we now live in where scynisisum is spelt incorrectly. |
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27 Jan 11 - 02:33 PM (#3083493) Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle? From: Dead Horse It is my belief that Paddy Doyle was a boarding master or 'crimp' who would sell his own son for a shilling. That reference made by Fred Buryeson was probably made with his tongue firmly in his cheek. A bit like saying that Larry Marr made the best lemonade this side of Shanghai :-) |
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27 Jan 11 - 03:17 PM (#3083531) Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle? From: JohnB From Songs of American Sailormen by Joanna Colcord: "Paddy Doyle was a famous boarding-house master in Liverpool. It is told of him that he kep a cow's horn in the back yard, round which he solemnly marched "green hands", so as to be able to tell a doubting skipper that they had "been three times round the horn!" The shanty was doubtless related in the mind of the singers to the sea-superstition that it brings bad luck to leave port with bills unpaid." I bought the book in a recent mudcat auction and just read this yesterday. JohnB |
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27 Jan 11 - 03:36 PM (#3083542) Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle? From: curmudgeon Joanna got that one wrong most likely. It was Liverpool boarding house keeper Paddy West who had "...the table where the bullock's horn do lie." I do find the bootmaker theory interesting, Most have believed that "paying for the boots" referred to the "advance" paid by boarding house keepers for a sailor to outfit himself, as his hard weather gear was frequently in pawn. But the fact that a "Patrick Doyle" kept a marine store seems to beyond mere coincidence - Tom |
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27 Jan 11 - 05:25 PM (#3083609) Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle? From: The Sandman probably an Irishman. |
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27 Jan 11 - 05:46 PM (#3083630) Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle? From: Dave Hanson I suggest you research Stan Hugill's book ' Sailortown ' in it is everything you could want to know about crimps and boarding masters. Dave H |
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27 Jan 11 - 08:47 PM (#3083736) Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle? From: Charley Noble Damn! My great post just went off to limbo... JohnB- At first I assumed you were misquoting Joanna Colcord about confusing "Paddy West" with "Paddy Doyle" but then I check page 42 of Songs of American Sailormen and, indeed, it was she who was confused. Shipcmo- I think you are definitely on to something with your literary reference to Paddy Doyle. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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29 Jan 11 - 12:50 PM (#3084748) Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle? From: The Sandman Stan Hugill was the nautical equivalent of Bert Lloyd |
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29 Jan 11 - 12:59 PM (#3084754) Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle? From: Greg F. Anybody check the 1860 Census records for Liverpool? |
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29 Jan 11 - 08:40 PM (#3084984) Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle? From: Charley Noble Greg F.- That's a thing that one can do. I and some friends have been doing that very thing with Cicely Fox Smith and her relatives, and reviewing the passenger lists as well. More stuff is on line, although sometimes it's hard to read what's there! Charley Noble |
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30 Jan 11 - 12:32 AM (#3085069) Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle? From: JohnB First part of the search is free, from the 1841 census search for Paddy Doyle JohnB |
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30 Jan 11 - 12:44 AM (#3085073) Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle? From: MGM·Lion I should think there must have been as many Patrick Doyles, + other Irish Doyles who might ∴ be nicknamed "Paddy", as John Smiths or David Joneses in Liverpool then ~~ or at any other time, for that matter. ~M~ |
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30 Jan 11 - 01:43 AM (#3085080) Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle? From: The Sandman unlikely that he was Osama Bin Laden. |
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20 Sep 17 - 05:16 PM (#3877889) Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle? From: GUEST,It's From Ruyard Kilpling In his series of books on WWI, Winston Churchill makes mention of Paddy Doyle while quoting from Kipling's "The Merchantmen." The World Crisis, Winston Churchill, Chapter 8, "On The Oceans." Second Edition, pg 283. |
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20 Sep 17 - 08:14 PM (#3877903) Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle? From: EBarnacle Considering that all of the other characters in the chantey are mentioned contemptuously, it would seem unlikely that he sold quality products. I suspect he was selling the equivalent of what Paddy West provided. |
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21 Sep 17 - 02:07 AM (#3877924) Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle? From: Dave Hanson The Sandman, Stan Hugill was an actual shantyman, so where do you get off on trying to insult his memory ? Dave H |
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21 Sep 17 - 03:45 AM (#3877931) Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle? From: Keith A of Hertford John Sampson said he was "a notorious boarding house master during the seventies." He said he had the cow horn in his back yard. Hugill said " He was probably just some Liverpool boarding house master." He says Padyy West was a "real live personage" and tells the cow horn story about him. |
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21 Sep 17 - 05:16 AM (#3877940) Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle? From: Mr Red Songs of the Sailor and Lumberman, W M Doerflinger page 10 has Paddy Doyle as a boarding house master. Page 346/7 has a long list of references to other collectors who refer to PD. Incedently P347 has quite a piece on Paddy West. Maitland said of him "he kept an old run-down boarding house - a straw house, up on the London Road (I think)", though Doerflinger thinks he had many locations. Stan Hugill has him in Great Howard Street with a ship's wheel in the back yard to train farmers into being seamen, complete with buckets of water thrown at them by his wife. "Find my Past" for Padraig Doyle best of luck. |