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08 Feb 11 - 06:00 PM (#3091379) Subject: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: saulgoldie I am used to being "in the minority," but...does anyone else have trouble with variety of "modern" keyboard layouts? I have one on my Droid--don't like the device overall, if you care--my new Windows 7 HP desktop, my work Dell laptop, my "olde" work Dell desktop, my recent but not yet antique IBM laptop (my favorite, but doesn't match the others, and I always have to think about what I am typing), my MAC notebook, and so on. Big things are: return key, page up, page down, "home," "end," "delete," capslock, and a few character keys. They are in different locations, different sizes, and do not always perform the exact same functions. I USED to have a respectable (by olde standards) keystroke speed (when in "creative mode"), including some favorite oft-used keystroke shortcuts (some dating back to WordPerfect 6.1) that still work. But now...??? As a wannabee writer (no, I AM a writer!!), I find these keystroke aberrations vexing, and thwarting to my "productivity flow." Should I just program them all the same? Anyone else? Saul |
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08 Feb 11 - 06:05 PM (#3091382) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: GUEST, topsie I only have a problem when my daughter borrows my computer and switches it to Dvorak, and then forgets to switch it back, so that when I start typing it comes out looking like Hungarian. |
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08 Feb 11 - 06:25 PM (#3091404) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: GUEST,Jon Ins annoys me on mine. I've only got it on the number pad. Oh no... I've just spotted another top right next to print screen and pause break. I don't know what the extra functions on this one does - probably assigned to things in Windows and I guess I could make them do something with Linux if I really could be bothered. That aside, I'm reasonably happy with it. I wanted a cheap (<£20) wireless keyboard and mouse set and was about all I could find that was PS/2 (it connects to a 4 port ps/2 KVM switch I'm not in a hurry to replace). |
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08 Feb 11 - 06:26 PM (#3091406) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: GUEST,leeneia Whoa, Saul, you sure have a lot of keyboards! I deal with only one. If they put different keys in different places, I can see how it would be very discombobulating for you. My thoughts on keyboards: I wish they would make certain important keys, such as Delete and Tab, different colors. Why must everything be either beige or black? By the way, what is a Droid? I've never heard of it. |
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08 Feb 11 - 07:31 PM (#3091448) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: Bill D Droid = 'Android'.. a newish wireless phone/workpad/surfing gadget. I have an AT&T phone with a partial keyboard..I have to do little tricks to enter numbers or switch to capitals. I have a very nice Microsoft keyboard with all sorts of extra gadgets & tricks...but it STILL doesn't have the special cutaway (to avoid hitting it when typing an 'a') capslock key that my old keyboard did. Because 'word processing' has so many needs that old typing didn't, manufacturers took different paths to organize things. |
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08 Feb 11 - 07:43 PM (#3091456) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: JohnInKansas Has anybody noticed (or cared) that telephone keypads are upside down from (most) calculators and numpads? It's seldom a problem in the US, but I can guess that people in Europe may be able to walk across the street and get "regionalized" keyboards that put the keys in different places and type different characters for the same keys. Some "relocations" can be accomplished just by changing the language settings in Windows, but of course then the labels on the keys are all "wrong." The last time I counted, Windows had about 128 different keyboard layouts that you might get, depending on where you got your computer. The web page has been updated since my last look, but you can select a language at Windows keyboard layouts to see where the keys would be if you make the appropriate language changes. I'm told that Win7 has an added "International Keyboard," but haven't been interested enough to look into it as yet. The proliferation of different keyboard layouts on the recent fad of "mini machines" is understandable, due to space limitations and lack of established standards; but it really isn't a problem for me since (IMO) those kinds of machines are only intended for use by people who have nothing much to say. John |
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08 Feb 11 - 07:55 PM (#3091460) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: JohnInKansas An incidental note on the Windows keyboard link above: The keyboard appears in a popup window that you can't resize, and the only way anybody's found (that I've heard of) to save the layout is to use "Print Screen" to capture a picture and paste it into an image editor. An apparent change with the "new" web page is that it appears possible to open the popup picture and it will remain open when you close the web page. This should allow you to have the keyboard picture on-screen while typing on a keyboard you've swapped languages for. One of the "languages" shown is US-Dvorak, so topsie can look at how the kid switches to/from Dvorak to understand how the language/keyboard swaps work. But Dvorak is listed at "U" and not at "D." John |
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08 Feb 11 - 08:03 PM (#3091465) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: The Fooles Troupe "Why must everything be either beige or black?" Whiteout and nail varnish can be your friend .... I had a mate whose wife kept asking "It says hit the 'Any' Key - where's that?" So he typed the word Any on a piece of white paper and glued it to the Enter/Return key .... |
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08 Feb 11 - 08:17 PM (#3091472) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: JohnInKansas Foolestroupe - One of his more experienced friends should have told him that "Any Key" sometimes really meant "any key except ...." and that the "Safest Any Key" should always be the space bar. In early Windows, any "character key" could be mapped to be a shortcut to something, and using a remapped "any key" could sometimes lead to "interesting" results. Only the space bar couldn't be remapped (by itself) to do something you might forget about. The "Enter" couldn't be remapped, but really old keyboards sometimes "double stroked" if you weeren't careful. John |
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08 Feb 11 - 08:31 PM (#3091484) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: Bill D Oh...and the 'enter' key used to be big enough to hit easily...before they needed all the space fro gadgets |
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08 Feb 11 - 08:39 PM (#3091491) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: The Fooles Troupe OIC JiK... So you could get a Run Time Error ??? |
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08 Feb 11 - 10:43 PM (#3091529) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: Bee-dubya-ell Has anybody noticed (or cared) that telephone keypads are upside down from (most) calculators and numpads? Yeah, I learned it the hard way. Back in the '70s, the last five digits of my in-laws' phone number happened to be "14789", which is a perfect "L" on a phone keypad. It was such a distinctive pattern that I never paid any attention to the numbers I was punching, just the pattern. Well, one day I needed to call them from a rotary dial phone and I couldn't remember the number. There was a calculator nearby, so I did the "L" pattern on it, came up with "74123", dialed it, and got a wrong number. |
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08 Feb 11 - 11:57 PM (#3091545) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: Slag I've had a 'droid (read: "'roid") for almost a year now and I still hate the thing. It got better when I finally learned how to turn off the endlessly WRONG spell and text correction. The virtual keyboard would be great if I had the hands and fingers of a 3 year old. The damn thing dials numbers all on its own, hangs up on its own, goes to the wrong thing on its own, loses its place, etc. I see why they came out with the second generation in less than one year. I have come so close to smashing the thing to bits so many times that, I think I have finally learned patience! As far as keyboard lay out, it was hard enough to learn qwerty. Dvorak may be more logical as may international but I won't confuse the issue. I have to stay with what I know. |
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09 Feb 11 - 01:15 AM (#3091570) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: JohnInKansas Although the "wisdom" that the QWERTY keyboard "scrambled the letters to slow down typing so the keys wouldn't run into each other" is rather widely accepted, the actual truth as told by the early designers was that it was arranged to place the most frequently used characters under the strongest fingers, and to alternate between hands to even the load. Avoiding consecutive letters typed with the same finger was an important goal. There were a lot of variations in the earliest typewriter keyboards, and the Linotype keyboards were significantly different in part because they had - and needed - more keys than early typewriters. The QWERTY layout succeeded because it was very good for its intended use. It arguably remains better than "more modern" layouts for any application requiring moderate to high key forces, as was the case with the mechanical typewriters extant when it was developed. The "electrification" of typewriters, and the resulting lower key forces needed, made it possible to use other layouts, and it did become quite easy for some typists to "outrun the keys" until designs for the the rest of the mechanisms caught up. Some old-timers may remember when the "Selectric" typewriters with the little rotating ball first appeared, as an answer to the higher keystroke rates that could be produced by even relatively mediocre typists with electric (low-force) keyboards. The Dvorak keyboard is just a different attempt to lay out the keys in a pattern that assists more rapid and less error-prone keyboard input. Just as with any other layout, one must learn - and commit to muscle memory - the locations of the keys; but the "reputation" that the Dvorak layout is always faster is based largely on the inability (unwillingness) of typists trained on other keyboards to compete with "Dvorak experts" offered as "proof" of the Dvorak superiority. I have known, and witnessed, QWERTY typists who could sustain 1200 strokes per minute - and who could type quite a bit faster than I could talk1 while formatting and spelling everything correctly - on an electric keyboard. With mechanical keyboards, the Dvorak still would likely be somewhat inferior to the QUERTY layout; but if you choose to learn it, it may be some help on electric ones if typing speed is really of significant importance to you. It's much like switching from oboe to flute to saxophone to clarinet to bassoon. Each instrument has keys that work for that instrument; but the differences in what is being done dictate different key arrangements on each. 1 ... and probably very much faster than I could think (?). John |
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09 Feb 11 - 01:53 AM (#3091575) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: The Fooles Troupe Lost Control ? |
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09 Feb 11 - 08:08 AM (#3091691) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: Charmion I use the Canadian Multilingual keyboard layout, which assigns French, German and Spanish diacritics to the positions usually occupied by various punctuation marks. I need it at work, where I copy-type and edit nearly as much French text as I do English, and have it at home as well because I find it just too irritating to remember to switch. Edmund has said that it drives him nuts. |
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09 Feb 11 - 08:32 AM (#3091707) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: GUEST,Patsy Who invented the QWERTY layout and how long ago? |
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09 Feb 11 - 04:16 PM (#3092010) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: Bill D 12 seconds in Google |
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09 Feb 11 - 04:19 PM (#3092011) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: Bill D (that wasn't totally fair, since my search term was "Blickensderfer" |
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09 Feb 11 - 04:20 PM (#3092014) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: JohnInKansas The QWERTY design is based on a layout created by Christopher Latham Sholes in 1873 in Milwaukee, Wisconsin for the Sholes and Glidden typewriter and sold to Remington in the same year, when it first appeared in typewriters. According to QWERTY at Wickipedia. John |
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09 Feb 11 - 04:48 PM (#3092025) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: JohnInKansas It took me longer than BillD's 12 seconds because I felt that I had to read what I posted before putting it up here.(smirk) The Wiki contributors refer to the QWERTY as being "left handed" with more English words being possible with the left hand alone than with the right hand alone. Some earlier articles (50 years ago?) maintained that this was deliberately done as the layout "matured" in recognition of the common "greater dexterity" of the "off-hand" in most people. Just as a right-handed fiddle is bowed with the right hand (where strength and "gross motion" are the requirements) and fingered with the left (where dexterity is the main need) the early experience with "almost QWERTY" layouts indicated that for the mechanical typewriters of the period it was preferable to have the most frequent/rapid movements on the left (for mostly right-handed typists). Reports ca. 1950 - 60 asserted that Sholes and others who evolved keyboard layout to modern QWERTY were familiar with "letter frequency" studies and at least one patent from the early era cited "letter adjacency" in arguing that one of a pair of letters that nearly always appear together should be moved so that they weren't both "on the same finger." While there was some knowledge of character frequency and adjacency characteristics in English at quite early times, the common use of "substitution cyphers" to send "coded" messages by the time of the US Civil War, and the use of "character counting" for breaking such codes, made the concept quite well known (by some) by the time the typewriter was beginning to reach a developed state. It's reasonable to believe that early keyboard designers were among those aware; and the "modern QWERTY" keyboard does a pretty good job of applying the notions of dispersal of frequent characters, separation of adjacencies, and distributing the characters where some "differential dexterity" is recognized. John |
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09 Feb 11 - 05:44 PM (#3092058) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: GUEST, topsie I am right-handed, I write with my right hand and generally it is the first choice for most activities, especially those requiring speed or dexterity, but I use my left hand for anything requiring strength, such as opening jars and bottles. I am surprised to learn that isn't the case with 'most' people 50 years ago. |
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09 Feb 11 - 10:53 PM (#3092209) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: JohnInKansas There's no reported change between "those over 50" and "those too young to know better," in the relative flexibility of the hands. Is it possible, topsie, that you might have been a leftie if you hadn't been discouraged from it while very young. It remains the case that for most people the "dominant" hand is stronger, but when trained the non-dominant one is more flexible and capable of more rapid fine-movement responses - better for fretboards (or keyboards) - while the dominant one becomes stronger by being used more for bows and bats. A commonly used test is "which foot comes off the ground last when you try to jump as high as you can?" Transfer of dominance by training is less often well developed in other parts of the body, so the "natural" tendency for the leg opposite the naturally dominant hand to be preferred often persists in those who've been "discouraged" out of a natural handedness tendency. If you find you can jump higher off your right leg than off your left, mother nature probably intended you to be left handed, which would (possibly) explain your clumsy - but strong - left hand. John |
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09 Feb 11 - 10:57 PM (#3092213) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: The Fooles Troupe Regarding 'handness' - it appears I am right handed - but when learning some physical skills, I have found that early on, if I spend some time also learning the skill 'other-handed', I progress faster and perform better with the right hand. When learning foil, medieval sword and shield, whistle, etc. |
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10 Feb 11 - 03:59 AM (#3092276) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: Slag Forgot to mention that the first thing I do with a new keboard is rip out the caplock key. Thanks for reminding me Foolestroop! |
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10 Feb 11 - 06:54 AM (#3092353) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: GUEST, topsie When I jump over something the left foot goes over first because I have pushed off with the right. If I go to kick a ball I kick with the right (something I have never been taught). My left-handed father had been made to write right-handed and his writing was illegible. My parents wouldn't have dreamed of doing the same to a left-handed child - they did have one left-handed child but it wasn't me. |
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10 Feb 11 - 12:39 PM (#3092535) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: GUEST,999--sorry! I haven`t had time to read this thread. I do know one thing, however. If there are changes to keyboard layouts then piano players are gonna be in trouble. |
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10 Feb 11 - 01:03 PM (#3092559) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: Bill D Rip out the capslock key? Seems drastic... I have a program called FirstCap which allows me to control the functions. It is set to NOT allow the capslock to be turned on. Instead, I must manually hold down the shift key whenever I want to enter a Cap...and I must continue to hold it down if I want a SERIES of caps. It gives a tiny 'beep' if I hit the capslock, just to remind me of what is set. It can be set for various modes, depending on your needs or attitude. |
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10 Feb 11 - 06:21 PM (#3092793) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: FaldingworthDave Something like this maybe http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_big.asp?PRODUCT=598 or maybe this one :-) http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_big.asp?PRODUCT=639 |
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10 Feb 11 - 09:49 PM (#3092873) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: Bill D arrrgghh...the first is grotesque and the 2nd is designed for the blind! |
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11 Feb 11 - 12:36 AM (#3092930) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: The Fooles Troupe The 'Look & learn' KB is colour coded to assist with learning touch typing! |
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11 Feb 11 - 01:28 AM (#3092944) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: JohnInKansas Capslock? All Microsoft Office programs have included optional settings since Win98 times that can automatically insert a cap if you don't deliberately capitalize after a stop (period, question mark, paragraph break etc). If you choose to use it, Word can also "cancel capslock" for you automatically if the program "thinks you've messed up." It is reasonably accurate, but not perfect. Either setting can be sort of a nuisance in some cases, but once you get used to how it works they can (either or both) be reasonably helpful. John |
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11 Feb 11 - 06:41 AM (#3093040) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: GUEST, topsie My first computer (can't remember which system) was programmed to change all cases of an i with a space before and after to I. When I wanted to type a list of i ii iii iv etc., I used to set it to Catalan, where i means 'and', to stop it 'correcting' it. |
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11 Feb 11 - 09:06 AM (#3093136) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: JohnInKansas The method usually suggested in Word when you have a few frequently used "words" that violate the sensibilities of the automatic capitalization correction depends on knowing which of the "replacers" runs first. The utility that changes capitalizations generally runs "on the keystroke" as you type. It will change your capitalization, but the "Autocorrect as you type" generally follows it by a few milliseconds. If you put the capitalization that the "corrector" will use into the Autocorrect dictionary as a misspelling, with the original capitalization that you'd type as the "correct spelling," every time the "capitalizer" changes what you type, the "autocorrector" will put it back. Without knowing how to automatically correct the incorrect correction made by the "first corrector" via "the other corrector," correspondence with the company that called themselves BaC was a real hassle, since every time you typed their common name it changed to Bac or to BAC, both of which were wrong. There are several other "company names" that offer similar challenges, and of course acronyms and initializations offer a wealth of marvelous examples. John |
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11 Feb 11 - 05:00 PM (#3093481) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: GUEST,999 I hate those types of corrections. Usually, when I make mistakes it's becuz I mean to. |
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11 Feb 11 - 06:50 PM (#3093556) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: Slag Thanks Bill D, I checked out the site and may just pick up the program. Of course, then I'd have to find where I put the button! The problem really comes up in chatroom situations. I can rattle off about 3 or 4 lines in a hurry, look up and see that I'm "shouting". Then it's delete, retype and lose my thought or the direction of the conversation. Of course I am adept at making similar errors in these threads but they are generally of a little different nature which I can edit. It's mostly "fat-finger" stuff but I don't always catch it all when I read back thorugh. |
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12 Feb 11 - 12:51 PM (#3093869) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: JohnInKansas If you find a long text in all caps where a couple of steps are justified, Copy and paste into Word. Highlight the whole thing. Hit Shift+F3 once or twice to toggle through all caps, initial caps, all lower case. Fix the caps you need from the all lower case, and paste back. Some years ago a "friend(?)" of LiK sent her a manuscript that was "due at the printer in three days and he was late." He had typed all 570 pages ALL IN CAPS in the belief that it would be "easier to read by his reviewers." With two computers and two people working long shifts, we got it to the printer, converted and mostly proofed. We've heard that it's been a best seller (in a small market). It's still listed as available at Hazelden Publishing, a dozen years later. I'm not sure whether she still considers him all that much of a friend. John |
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12 Feb 11 - 06:05 PM (#3094049) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: The Fooles Troupe Firefox has a LeetKey plugin that will handle case conversions like the examples above. |
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12 Feb 11 - 07:12 PM (#3094077) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: The Fooles Troupe ctrl_esc |
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13 Feb 11 - 03:34 AM (#3094197) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: JohnInKansas I thought for a moment that Foolestroupe meant he got mad and left, but that would require Ctl-Esc U, and he'd know that. Cute cartoon. John |
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13 Feb 11 - 04:22 AM (#3094207) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: The Fooles Troupe QUOTE 1. On an MIT space-cadet keyboard, use of all four of the shifting keys (control, meta, hyper, and super) while typing a character key. 2. On a Stanford or MIT keyboard in raw mode, use of four shift keys while typing a fifth character, where the four shift keys are the control and meta keys on both sides of the keyboard. This was very difficult to do! One accepted technique was to press the left-control and left-meta keys with your left hand, the right-control and right-meta keys with your right hand, and the fifth key with your nose. Quadruple-bucky combinations were very seldom used in practice, because when one invented a new command one usually assigned it to some character that was easier to type. If you want to imply that a program has ridiculously many commands or features, you can say something like: "Oh, the command that makes it spin the tapes while whistling Beethoven's Fifth Symphony is quadruple-bucky-cokebottle." UNQUOTE http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/Q/quadruple-bucky.html :-P |
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13 Feb 11 - 04:26 AM (#3094210) Subject: RE: BS: Keyboard Layout? From: The Fooles Troupe space-cadet keyboard http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/S/space-cadet-keyboard.html A now-legendary device used on MIT LISP machines, which inspired several still-current jargon terms and influenced the design of EMACS. It was equipped with no fewer than seven shift keys: four keys for bucky bits ('control', 'meta', 'hyper', and 'super') and three regular shift keys, called 'shift', 'top', and 'front'. Many keys had three symbols on them: a letter and a symbol on the top, and a Greek letter on the front. For example, the 'L' key had an 'L' and a two-way arrow on the top, and the Greek letter lambda on the front. By pressing this key with the right hand while playing an appropriate 'chord' with the left hand on the shift keys, you could get the following results: (Table) And of course each of these might also be typed with any combination of the control, meta, hyper, and super keys. On this keyboard, you could type over 8000 different characters! This allowed the user to type very complicated mathematical text, and also to have thousands of single-character commands at his disposal. The keyboard of the Symbolics Lisp machine was a simplified version, lacking Top and Front keys, that could only send about 2000 characters. Many hackers were actually willing to memorize the command meanings of that many characters if it reduced typing time (this attitude obviously shaped the interface of EMACS). Other hackers, however, thought having that many bucky bits was overkill, and objected that such a keyboard can require three or four hands to operate. Also: Keynoard Pic and Captn Crunchy Cartoon .... |