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BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011

11 Mar 11 - 08:20 PM (#3112038)
Subject: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Japan's oldest reactor is now 1000% more radioactive than yesterday.
An explosion is a possible outcome.
A meltdown of les destructive proportions is also possible.

If it explodes (and it could) it will be a fission event with more fuel than any ever detonated on earth.

IF TWO OR MORE NUCLEAR PLANTS IN JAPAN MELTDOWN BEYOND THE CONTAINMENT BUILDING:

Wind currents will disperse radioactive cesium, Iodine, Strontium, plutonium and other nasty atoms world wide.

Of the dizens if nuclear plants in Japan, currently the oldest one bulit in 1960 and finished in 1970 is in the most serious condition of being unable to cool the fuel rods which are now venting radiactive steam. Once the un-cooled water turns entirely to steam the fuel will melt and may or may not be contained in the old brittle vessel. The steel in an old plant being bombarded by protons and neutrons for decades will behave like steet that is hundreds of years old. If heated or cooled rapidly the steel will crack wide open. This N plant has no electricity to run the cooling pumps after the back up generators flooded, the back up batteries have run out hours ago.
This part is speculative but when it was reported that Russia and America are rushing "COOLANT" to Japan's N plant it may be referring to powered boroon to dump on top of the reactor to ease the risk of ...gulp detonation...the same way Russian firefighters did on Chernobyl. All the first responding firefighters who dumped the boron from helicopters died within weeks.

A second critical N plant is also having trouble cooling down.


Hillary Clinton said we are sending coolant to Japan. The airforce says they they do not know of any flights of coolant.
(Maybe we shipped it Federal Express?!)



How will a looming nuclear disaster as well as the earthquake (which pales in comparison), effect the rest of the world?

Financially only about 10 to 20% of Japan's losses are covered by insurance.

Insurance does not cover natural disasters of nuclear accidents. Even your home owners policy will say this.
The special insurance for natural and atomic accidents is sold in large part by AIG. 70% of AIG is in receivership to the taxpayers of the US. AIG would need a bail out to cover the pay outs.

Toyota and Nissan are shut down with no reopen date in mind.

Imagine buying a product from Japan you might suspect of being radioactive. Not good for business.

Hyundai will take over the Toyota market share of Toyota and Nissan for a year or more.

Japan has a current debt margin of 200% compared to the United States debt margin of 25%

After WW2 the US had a margin of 100.



The US will have to provide money and resources equivalent to what we spend in Iraq and Afghanistan every week which is about 2.5 billion.
If we are serious about saving Japan, we should consider declaring victory in Afghanistan this coming Monday and shift to help Japan. As Bush senior said "Na-gonna-doit"



If it melts but does not go critical it is difficult to ever clean up as water explodes from a deep radioactive hole in the ground. If the Zircon shield at the bottom of the reactor holds the way the 3 Mile Island Plant did, we all be very lucky indeed. Since the N plants are next to the sea. I'm sure you can see the difficulty containing the problem if it goes catastrophic.



Again if the N plants (one or more) melt down there will be more death in slow motion over decades.

There is no such thing as one possible outcome.

The outcome of a meltdown ranges from an enormous bomb event to a persistent radiation event

WHAT CAN YOU DO?
In the weeks to come please buy and take Iodine pills as directed. Stop drinking milk and cheeses made after the end of March.
Monitor/measure radioactivity in outside swimming pools.


11 Mar 11 - 08:28 PM (#3112041)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Worst case scenario is that Japan will lose over half of thier Island nation to an uninhabited danger zone similar to a Chrnobyl death zone.

Best case scenario, the plant is saved in the nick of time and the damage is limited to the readioactive steam that has already been released.


11 Mar 11 - 08:31 PM (#3112042)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Bobert

This could very well be as bad as Chernobyl if they can't get the bad-boy cooled down... And fast... Make Three Mile Island look like a pleasant Sunday afternoon picnic...

B~


11 Mar 11 - 08:33 PM (#3112044)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

They are completely different kinds of reactors but the U238 and PU are the same.


11 Mar 11 - 09:17 PM (#3112066)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

The radioactivity is 8 times normal and rising outside the plant.
We are officially 8 to 12 houra away from some form of a melt down event.

My Pharmacy did not have any dietary Idodine. Seaweed is high in Iodine. It prevents the uptake of radioactive Iodine in your Thyroid gland.


11 Mar 11 - 10:01 PM (#3112081)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

5 seperate Japanese reactors are at this moment hours away from meltdowns.

tick tick tick


11 Mar 11 - 10:21 PM (#3112084)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Heeeeere's the best link


11 Mar 11 - 10:22 PM (#3112085)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

I checked at my pharmacy for iodine too...I am SOL if it happens. mg


11 Mar 11 - 10:23 PM (#3112086)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6

... tick ... tick ... tick

and the suckers do meltdown the prevailing jet stream winds could pick up some of that stuff blow it from Japan directly across the Pacific ocean to the west coast of the United States.


biLL


11 Mar 11 - 10:25 PM (#3112087)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Here is the actual meltdown


11 Mar 11 - 10:31 PM (#3112090)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Peace

Georgia Tech Nuclear expert: Japan's nuclear plant doesn't sound dire

ShareThis PrintE-mail
By Ty Tagami
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

The alarming news coming from Japan's Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant doesn't worry one of Atlanta's experts on nuclear reactors.


Farzad Rahnema, a Georgia Tech professor of nuclear engineering, had been reading stories that hinted at the possibility of a meltdown at the plant, which was shaken by the massive earthquake there. But he said the details he'd gleaned from those accounts, and from industry reports, suggested that a meltdown was unlikely.

The word conjures images of the Chernobyl plant in the former Soviet Union, and the devastation it wrought when its reactor melted down. Will the Fukushima plant disgorge hot nuclear fuel, dumping radiation into the air and sea?

"I don't think this thing is anywhere close to that," said Rahnema, who studies reactor safety. He added a caveat -- his opinion was based on "sketchy" details. But he said the fact that plant officials hadn't deemed it necessary to activate an emergency cooling system was reassuring.

Despite a loss of power to the plant's primary cooling system, it appeared officials were able to obtain backup power, he said, basing that opinion on a terse statement issued by the Tokyo Electric Power Company at about 4 p.m. Friday Atlanta time. It said the water level necessary to cool the reactor fuel had been "maintained."

That wouldn't have been possible without backup power, Rahnema said. "If the water level in the reactor is maintained," he said, "that's good news."

Even if the reactor core were to melt down, Rahnema said it probably would not produce the dire consequences seen in Chernobyl. That plant had few of the safety features required in Japan. Even if the Fukushima reactor were to melt the central pressure vessel that contains it, he said, the radioactive fuel would still be held within a concrete containment, something he said was lacking in the Chernobyl design.

Still, if officials cannot get the plant online, they'll have to control the temperature of the nuclear fuels with standby power, possibly for months. The nuclear reaction will continue at least that long, Rahnema said.

The nuclear reactions "have a long half life, so they continue creating heat," he said. But the heat from the reaction drops significantly within a day after the reactor is shut down, to as little as 1 percent of the amount when it was at full power, he said. "It's easy to manage."


11 Mar 11 - 10:34 PM (#3112092)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: artbrooks

It is generally accepted that nuclear plants cannot explode through anything except planned detonation (i.e., an attack of some kind), and then it is not a nuclear explosion. A meltdown can release significant radiation, such as at Chernobyl, but probably only if the plant is as badly maintained as that one was. Most likely there would be no measurable release of radiation, which was the case at TMI. The "100% increase of radiation" reported by some media sources refers to radiation in the plant control room, which is normally a shirt-sleeves environment.


11 Mar 11 - 10:36 PM (#3112093)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

He os nearly as funny as Dr. Strangelove


11 Mar 11 - 10:36 PM (#3112094)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6

Well ..... I'm not taking any chances kids ... first thing in the morning I'm heading down to the City Market and stocking up on as much Grand Manaan dulse I can get my hands on !

biLL


11 Mar 11 - 10:38 PM (#3112096)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jeri

I believe that if the interior pressure builds to a high enough level, the containment could burst and release a lot more radiation than what escapes in the controlled venting process. Perhaps that's what was meant by "explosion".


12 Mar 11 - 01:26 AM (#3112129)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Ron Davies

After all, panic is so much more fun than looking at the problem soberly.

"Panic early and often" seems to be the motto for some prolific posters.


12 Mar 11 - 01:50 AM (#3112135)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Little Hawk

So...you object to people looking calmly and soberly at a crisis in Lybia and not urging immediate drastic action!!!

And you recommend that people look calmly and soberly at a crisis in Japan...and not panic.

Why does no one here seem to measure up to your high expectations, Ron?


12 Mar 11 - 02:02 AM (#3112140)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Jeri, both of your scenarios are possible. If a steam explosion breaks the pipes and containment vessel it would lead to meltdown which carries with it a small chance of a nuclear explosion. If it blows the top off the reactor we could pour Boron on the core as well as water. It would be fatal to all who did so but they could save Japan from a fission nightmare. A steam explosion would also hasten the loss of all water, which would require working pumps to add more immediately.

It feels creepy to be on a media black out over night. I am not getting any shortwave tonight.



Ron, So true.

I recall (among others) posting extensively on the looming economic disaster 4 years before it occured.
I recall posting with passionate panic on the corporate take over of the United States and the looming gilded age destroying what was left of the middle class.
I recall positing often regarding the Bush administration and the social economic folly of the Iraq war.
I posted early regarding bio warefare research efforts that could...Oops I guess I was wrong about that one.

If you think I am prolific for posting for a day or two every other week, thank you. Funny as it sounds that bi monthly schedule is the only time I am capable of contributing.
You are probably reffering to Amos, LH, Bobert,Raparree, Bill, Don Firth, Old dude, Odd dude, Ellie, Carol, Ron and a gentle hoard of others are the true prolific contributors.

Panic is not recommended no matter what the outcome of the 5 N plants which only have hours to be saved.

Will we learn of the heros who save the Earth from the first total critical explosion of hundreds of tons of Uranium?
Will they gain control in timeTune in again next week for the next episode of "Your Ass on a Plate"?...brought to you by big business and the fuck you lobby associates of Washington DC.


12 Mar 11 - 04:45 AM (#3112172)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Keith A of Hertford

De we know if the lost coolant is sodium, as in many plants?


12 Mar 11 - 04:54 AM (#3112173)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

A bit late to discuss whether or not explosion is possible at all:

Footage of massive explosion at Fukushima 1


First reports indicate outside panelling has been blown off the reactor building.


12 Mar 11 - 04:57 AM (#3112174)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

Sodium is not used in "many" nuclear plants, only fast breeders. Japan doesn't have any of those.


12 Mar 11 - 05:09 AM (#3112177)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Will Fly

We are officially 8 to 12 hours away from some form of a melt down event. [Donuel - 11 March 9.17PM Mudcat Time]

I've just been looking at the latest news clips from CNN and other sources - all of them reporting within the last hour or so.

There appears to be little or no change in the current state of the reactor. There has been some recording of a slight increase in radiation levels in the immediate vicinity of the plant. The reported explosion within the plant has not been linked to any direct nuclear-related fault, and scientists and engineers in the plant are working on the cooling system at the moment. People in the vicinity of the plant have been evacuated. Extra coolant is being brought to the country from the US.

It's a serious business - but one which is being tackled as efficiently and as properly as the Japanese can - and they have some very expert people in the nuclear industry.

Now - all of that may be short-sighted and over-optimistic. How am I to know? But it's equally short-sighted to post panic-riddled prophecies of doom when most of us are thousands of miles away from knowing the reality of the situation.


12 Mar 11 - 05:26 AM (#3112179)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Keith A of Hertford

"Extra coolant is being brought to the country from the US."

Water?


12 Mar 11 - 05:30 AM (#3112182)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,John MacKenzie

3 Mile Island

The Japan Syndrome.

Pull your foreskin over your head, and kiss your ass goodbye.


12 Mar 11 - 05:39 AM (#3112185)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Keith A of Hertford

There is a red flash just visible at the instant of explosion.
Not just steam pressure.
If no sodium is present, water must have reacted with the fuel itself to release hydrogen.
That means radioactive escape.


12 Mar 11 - 05:54 AM (#3112191)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: bubblyrat

Perhaps, not withstanding their prior experience of quite serious earthquakes , it was not such a brilliant idea for the Nipponese to construct nuclear -power plants close to a fault-line ?? Surely this is , and always has been, an accident -in-waiting ??


12 Mar 11 - 08:46 AM (#3112278)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

I mentioned a few years back (five or six) that imo nuclear power is usually ok. HOWEVER, of the approximate 450 plants in the world, more than half needed IMMEDIATE refurbishment. They haven't been getting the repairs they need. I got laughed and hissed off the 'cat for pointing that out. Today, allow me to point out that the number in dire need of repair is closer to 60%. I hope it's real funny now!

Sour grapes? Yer fuckin' right. And when the Japanese mess is sorted--as I pray for my children it will be--we'll forget about it and go along as we always have. Doing bugger all about it, sucking gas outta the ground and trading away our children's future for the toys: ATVs, SUVs, gas guzzlers, electric toothbrushes, hair dryers and damned near anything else that will make sure WE use it before our rotten kids get THEIR hands on it.

I think that if humanity wants to survive, we gotta find a new way to do business and live this life. The dirtiest bastards are those who play games with oil; the other dirtiest bastards are multi-nationals for their complete exploitation of people, and the other dirtiest bastards are those who make weapons of war. Learning one's lesson the hard way is NOT necessarily the best way to learn. So, assuming Japan is able to get the nuclear genie under control, what will WE do as people to help make a future for our kids that doesn't involve them having to take iodine pills and having to wear radiation suits to go play outside? At this juncture, it might be a good time to make a commitment and stand up to these bastards. But wait a minute, there's a show on and I just HATE to miss it. It's about these people stranded on and island and they might vote Josh off . . . .


12 Mar 11 - 09:46 AM (#3112308)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

The Fuk U Shima nuclear plant is an old fashioned water reactor.

At the more southern plant one reactor has now EXPLODED in a huge steam and hydrogen explosion.
From a camera aboard a ship 2 miles away you can see the explosion send a shock wave of steeam and concrete over 500 feet into the air followed by the dusty debris and vapor. What pipes that delivered water and circulated water coolant are certainly destoryed in the explosion.

IT can not be helped by generraators now and is destined to continue to cascade to various forms of meltdown.

spraying sea water on the possibly blown open reactor will cause enviormental damage in a desperate trade off to prevent a critical mass explosion or a meltdown through the containment concrete floor.

If the containment building miraculously survided the immense steam explosion plain old seawater could be pumped by fire trucks into the core but the run off and exposure will certainly cause fatal exposure to any hero who volunteers for such duty.

The tally stands at one critical exploded reactor among 5 critical reactors.

(This Spockian philosophy has never applied to Wall St.)

The needs of the many outwieghs the needs of the few.
In all there is over 100 tons of highly enriched Uranium in those reactors!

What ever downplaying and soft soap pedeling that you may hear over the next week, know that this is a global poisoning event.




PS Huckabee has already begun to campaign on this issue saying that the United Sates should not spend a dime on Japan because of our looming debt.

To think he was a preacher, how sad.


12 Mar 11 - 10:03 AM (#3112318)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

It seems all the reactors were successfully shut down - i.e. the fuel is now intermixed with rods of neutron-absorbing material. They can't go critical (bomb-style explosion). What's generating the heat is decay of fission products.

IF everything can be kept under control for a day or two, things get a lot more manageable, as the decay energy of the fission products drops off quite quickly.

Still a godawful mess to deal with afterwards, probably about as expensive as Chernobyl. No chance that a private company would have the funds to fix the damage. Anybody know about TEPCO's ownership?


12 Mar 11 - 10:04 AM (#3112319)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: artbrooks

According to the most recent reports - which are subject to updating, of course - there has been no damage to the containment chamber at the Fukushima Daiichi plant; radiation levels are dropping and internal pressure is decreasing. The explosion, regardless of how devastating it seems to be from a distance, involved only exterior portions of the reactor complex and not the reactor itself.


12 Mar 11 - 10:06 AM (#3112322)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

"An explosion at a nuclear power station today destroyed a building housing the reactor amid fears that it could melt down after being hit by a powerful earthquake and tsunami.

Large amounts of radiation were spewing out and the evacuation area around the plant was expanded but officials did not know how dangerous the leak was to people. Shinji Kinjo, a spokesman for the Japanese nuclear agency, could not say how much radiation was in the atmosphere or how hot the reactor was following the failure of its cooling system.

Tokyo Power Electric Co., the utility that runs the Fukushima Dai-ichi plant, said four workers had suffered fractures and bruises and were being treated at a hospital. A NUCLEAR EXPERT SAID A MELTDOWN MAY NOT POSE WIDESPREAD DANGER" (emphasis added WHAT!!!).

This situation is not going to get better, as I feared yesterday.

The process in review:

The earthquake cut off conventional power to the nuclear plant with its four reactors.

Back-up generators kicked in as planned to power the coolant pumps.

Then the tsunami knocked out some of the back-up generators, leaving two of the reactors with no power except for batteries.

Hyrdogen gas began to build up within the containment area (which is why they were venting radioactive steam yesterday) and this morning there was most likely a hydrogen explosion which has blown apart one of the buildings.

What's not clear to me is whether the reactor vessel has been breached in this explosion, or whether that vessel is surrounded by an additional dome. In any case there seems no way to avert a meltdown of this reactor's fuel rods with further explosions, which could trigger further damage and explosions to the adjacent reactors.

This is not good and that's why further evacuations are taking place.

Charley Noble


12 Mar 11 - 10:08 AM (#3112323)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: number 6

Politicians and preachers ..... forget fucking sad .... more like fucking angry.

as the song states ..

"Goddamn it!
Tryin' to make it real, compared to what"

biLL


12 Mar 11 - 10:10 AM (#3112325)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

The Fukushima nuclear plant in Fukushima prefecture in northeastern Japan is pictured in a 2008 file photo. (Xinhua/Kyodo file photo)
TOKYO, March 12 (Xinhua) -- The Japanese government confirmed Saturday that while an explosion did occur at the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant earlier in the day, the blast did not happen at the location of its No. 1 reactor.

Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano said at an emergency press conference convened in Tokyo that owner and operator of the nuclear facility, Tokyo Electric Power Co., has confirmed that the steel container housing the reactor is intact.

Edano said that the blast, which occurred at 3:36 p.m. local time (0636 GMT), destroyed the roof and the walls of the reactor's outer container.

Authorities added that whilst the evacuation zone has been increased from a 10-kilometer radius for the Fukushima No. 1 and the troubled No. 2 plants to a 20-kilometer radius, no serious damage occurred to the container of the No. 1 reactor, as previously feared.

Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency had said earlier that the reactor in the Fukushima No. 1 power station, located about 220 km north of Tokyo, may be starting to melt down after Japan's biggest earthquake on record hit the area Friday.

Recent reports, however, suggest the catastrophe may not be quite as deadly as previously thought.

Eye witnesses accounts and TV footage in Saturday afternoon showed smoke billowing from the site and reported that the reactor building had been destroyed, leading many to believe a partial core meltdown had occurred.

Four people have been injured at the power plant, authorities said, but radiation levels dropped quickly after surging, following the blast according to official accounts.

Prefectural officials in the area announced that the hourly radiation from the troubled plant reached 1,015 micro sievert in the vicinity prior to the explosion and that the radiation approximates an ordinary amount for an adult to be exposed to in one year.

The reports of the explosion followed aftershocks and came amid a mammoth search and rescue mission launched in the northeastern region of Japan involving both Japanese and U.S. military forces.

The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency confirmed that measures taken to release the potentially devastating build up of pressure had worked, essentially averting a nuclear meltdown and that radiation amount will pose no imminent health issues for nearby residents.

The agency also said that the wind currently blowing toward the sea rather than inland in the region is a helpful factor.

Government officials said that in the wake of Friday's colossal earthquake and tsunami that struck the northeastern region of Japan, 1,700 people are feared missing or dead.

Editor: Fang Yang


12 Mar 11 - 10:16 AM (#3112331)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

The rods are indeed capable of melting the metal sheaths around each rod of Uranium becasue of the way it was shut down. Critical mass could only occur when the exposed fuel then melts and compresses on the floor of the reactor.

A scram shutdown with no coolant circulation can contain enough residual heat to damage the "protective blankets" around the Uranium.

WHile you are technically and perfectly correct Jack, the truth is there remains a possibility of melted fuel that could proceed to criticality..

If you want a number I would put it at 10% or less.

A meltdown would still last indefininately. Far longer than a Gulf oil spill.

Neither alternative is anything less than catastrophic.


12 Mar 11 - 10:22 AM (#3112336)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Not good news!

"Japan's government spokesman says the metal container sheltering a nuclear reactor was not affected by an explosion that destroyed the building it's in."

I'm unsure what this statement means beyond an attempt to reassure the public. The fuel rods are within a containment vessel and here in the States our nuclear plants have what's called a containment dome, a final barrier of defense if there were a meltdown (and no one really knows if it would work or not in that event). It's unclear to me if there is a secondary containment dome for this reactor in Japan or whether that was supposed to be the building whose walls have just been blown out.

But in either event no cooling system (pipes, pumps, valves) would have survived that explosion and it's just a matter of hours before there is a complete meltdown.

Charley Noble


12 Mar 11 - 10:31 AM (#3112339)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Spreading fear when you have no facts is NOT a nice thing. What are your sources for all this stuff if I may ask.


12 Mar 11 - 11:24 AM (#3112376)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

999-

Why don't you view the BBC video again yourself and do some research before you accuse others of "spreading fear"? You should be ashamed of yourself. This is a human tragedy which will likely rival the impact of what happened in the Ukraine with the Chernobyl meltdown and explosion.

My own education and experience comes from working as staff for an anti-nuclear power organization in Maine for over ten years, from 1982 to 1992. One learns a lot about the risks involved with generating electricity from "clean" nuclear power from such experience.

I don't think I am exaggerating the dire risks facing the Japanese people at this time. I wish I were.

Charley Noble


12 Mar 11 - 11:30 AM (#3112379)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

I am simply asking where the facts are coming from, Charley. I am certainly NOT making light of the situation facing the Japanese people. I am asking where your facts are from. It is YOU who should be ashamed of yourself. You ARE spreading fear--and if rightfully so I will apologize to you. I won`t expect an apology from you if it is otherwise.

Bruce Murdoch


12 Mar 11 - 11:34 AM (#3112382)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Latest reports suggest that, for now at least, a major meltdown looks like being avoided at a nuclear power plant in northeast Japan that was badly damaged by the massive earthquake that struck yesterday afternoon.

Getting clear information on the situation is difficult – one US news station, for example, suggested in one segment there had been about 80 aftershocks since yesterday's main temblor, but in a graphic a couple of minutes later said it was about 180. (The former seems much more likely, although the aftershocks, some of which have topped magnitude 6, have been so regular it's hard to keep track).

According to a Reuters report, radiation is leaking from a plant in Fukushima after a large explosion earlier this afternoon apparently blew off the roof. The evacuation radius was increased from an initial 10 kilometre radius to 20 kilometres, and officials are said to be distributing iodine to locals to help protect them from radiation exposure.

But despite initial speculation among some news stations determined to press analysts and correspondents to discuss 'the worst case scenario,' experts contacted by Reuters said Japan shouldn't see a repeat of the Chernobyl disaster in Russia.

'They said pictures of mist above the plant suggested only small amounts of radiation had been expelled as part of measures to ensure its stability, far from the radioactive clouds Chernobyl spewed out 25 years ago,' Reuters reported. 'Valeriy Hlyhalo, deputy director of the Chernobyl nuclear safety centre, was quoted by Interfax news agency as saying Japanese reactors were better protected than Chernobyl.'


12 Mar 11 - 11:36 AM (#3112383)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Fuel rods at the reactor may be melting after radioactive Cesium material left by atomic fission was detected near the site, Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency spokesman Yuji Kakizaki said by phone earlier today.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-12/explosion-destroys-walls-of-japan-reactor-building-nhk-reports.html

I read a report that said the temp in the control room was 100C but I can't find it now.


12 Mar 11 - 11:44 AM (#3112391)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Note that it is the detection of Cesium that is key.

The fact they are going to try using sea water MAY indicate that the cooling systems MAY be damaged to SOME extent... or NOT. Of course, it's all conjecture.


12 Mar 11 - 11:45 AM (#3112393)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: number 6

Basically I don't believe anything (bad or good)that I'm reading .... in time the truth will be known ... all we can do ... at this point in time is hope.

biLL


12 Mar 11 - 11:51 AM (#3112400)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Bruce-

Thanks for the name. No one will be more delighted to offer profuse apologies if I am overstating the case.

Try reviewing this update via Wikipedia. It's the best background info I've been able to find but still very alarming to anyone who has a clue how these plants are supposed to function:
click here for update!

And I should caution that Wikipedia is only as good a "source" as whoever happens to be posting but there is a lot more detail revealed here than from the regular news reports.

The reactor building which was demolished in the explosion does not have a secondary containment system. It is an older "boiling water" reactor designed by General Electric, similar to the Vermont Yankee reactor. It was scheduled to be permanently shut down later this month.

There are six reactors on site at this nuclear plant. Three were shut down before the earthquake for regularly scheduled maintenance and thus were not available to provide back-up power after the tsunami.

The next phase of trying to cool the reactor vessel appears to be pumping sea water in, augmented with boric acid to inhibit further nuclear reaction. This is a desperate measure but is probably the best option left at this point in an attempt to avert a complete meltdown.

Charley Noble


12 Mar 11 - 11:57 AM (#3112405)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL

As long as large aftershocks continue this situation can't be considered "under control". One aftershock too many and the damage will be the straw that broke...
For now we watch and pray.


12 Mar 11 - 11:59 AM (#3112408)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: number 6

exactly Sinsull .... watch, hope and pray for the best.

biLL


12 Mar 11 - 12:05 PM (#3112412)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

sIx... you can stay at my place if LePreau lights up... I'll put the key under a rock behind the garage before I leave. Of course, it is a CANDU so I don't think there's much chance of that.


12 Mar 11 - 12:07 PM (#3112413)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: josepp

////Of the dizens if nuclear plants in Japan, currently the oldest one bulit in 1960 and finished in 1970 is in the most serious condition of being unable to cool the fuel rods which are now venting radiactive steam.////

Maybe plant designs have changed since I worked in them, but I never heard of fuel rods and they can't vent steam. The fuel comes in very thin plates and "very pure water", called a moderator, is pumped around them. The rods are made usually of hafnium and actually absorb neutrons which has the effect of squelching fission reactions. A total insertion of all the rods at once is called a scram and that shuts the reactor down. Now I do know of plants that actually used water in place of the rods and it is possible those might flash to steam but they are not fuel either.


12 Mar 11 - 12:14 PM (#3112418)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: josepp

It is also impossible for a nuke plant to cause a nuclear explosion. They are not set up like a nuclear bomb. An exploding nuke plant would be more like a dirty bomb not an A-bomb. Let's not spread unfounded rumors.

Japan will weather this out as they always do. There will be a massive clean up obviously. This will not be another Chernobyl. Japanese plants are built a tiny bit safer than that. But it is not possible for there to be a "bomb event." Stop causing needless alarm please.


12 Mar 11 - 12:24 PM (#3112423)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Bettynh

Some already need decontamination.


12 Mar 11 - 12:37 PM (#3112430)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: josepp

The above article makes no distinction between radiation and radioactivity--they are NOT the same thing.

Radioactivity is caused by the emission of alpha particles. If you're exposed to radioactivity then you need decon immediately. Radiation is caused by the emission of gamma rays. If you are hit with radiation, decon won't do any good.


12 Mar 11 - 01:10 PM (#3112451)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Charley, I want you to know that I agree with you about the possible death toll of a nuclear meltdown, and the severity of that worldwide. I've been with you since about 1965. The issue does get people heated, myself among them. With you, I hope you're wrong. No apology--profuse or otherwise--will be necessary. I was wrong--but let's hope I'm right.

Thank you, Charley.

Bruce


12 Mar 11 - 01:16 PM (#3112458)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

josepp-

As someone who has "worked in" nuclear power plants, you have never heard of "fuel rods"? What was your job there? (sputter, sputter) The nuclear fuel is composed as cylindrical pellets, inserted into nickel alloy fuel rod and then with its brothers and sisters installed within the reactor vessel. The steam would be generated from the coolant heated by the reaction taking place within the fuel rods.

"Stop causing needless alarm"?

You're correct that an atomic explosion as with a bomb would be unlikely at this nuclear reactor. What happened at Chernobyl, however, was bad enough to be "alarmed" at, don't you think? There the nuclear fuel rods melted down, caught fire, and there was a plume of highly radioactive gas which devastated the surrounding downwind area, and dispersed radiation worldwide. You say that is "unlikely to happen" with a 40 year old Japanese nuclear reactor. I don't think anyone should be reassured by your statement. But I could be wrong. I hope so.

Charley Noble


12 Mar 11 - 01:30 PM (#3112465)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Bruce-

I'd ordinarily send this via PM but as you're a "guest" that is not an option.

Our disagreement is a minor ripple compared to what folks seem to be facing in and around the Fukushima nuclear plant, not to mention the other nuclear plants in Japan which are also having problems but which we've gotten less info.

My parents raised questions about the siting of the Maine Yankee nuclear power plant prior to its construction beginning in 1968. It was a tough time to raise questions about the safety of nuclear power and they didn't win that battle. I didn't get involved until after Three-Mile Island in 1979. And it wasn't until 1982 that I returned to Maine and began working with the Maine Nuclear Referendum Committee to attempt to shut the plant down. There were actually three statewide shut-down referenda, and they all failed to harvest more than 48% of the vote. The last one took place in 1987 in the wake of the Chernobyl disaster. We raised almost a million dollars and thought we were sure to win this round, but, no, we hardly did any better. Ten years later the owners of Maine Yankee decided to shut it down ten years before its license was to expire because of escalating maintenance problems. But we like to think we helped persuade them to make the right decision. Maybe so. Maybe not.

Charley Noble


12 Mar 11 - 01:37 PM (#3112468)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

I'll throw out an idea and watch it get shot to hell.

If the venting to reduce the pressure causes a decrease in the level of heavy water which leads to the exposure of some of the rods which in turn causes a temperature rise (and this will accelerate with subsequent temperature rise) thereby allowing the nickel to melt and the ??? (can't recall the name of that stuff) to ignite which in turn ignites the hydrogen separated from the heavy water by the extreme temperatures causing a massive explosion which expels radioactive material into the atmosphere... why not pull the drain plug and remove the explosive fuel from equation? Is it because it's better to expel the radioactive material into the atmosphere than have it melt into the earth?

Start shootin.


12 Mar 11 - 01:42 PM (#3112473)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Bravo Charley.

Now, could Canada interest you in a CANDU? >;-)


12 Mar 11 - 01:53 PM (#3112479)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

However, Naoto Sekimura, a professor at Tokyo University, insisted there was little chance that Japan came close to experiencing a Chernobyl-style meltdown. "No Chernobyl is possible at a light water reactor," he said. "Loss of coolant means a temperature rise, but it also will stop the reaction. Even in the worst-case scenario, that would mean some radioactive leakage and equipment damage, but not an explosion.


12 Mar 11 - 01:59 PM (#3112485)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

Is it because it's better to expel the radioactive material into the atmosphere than have it melt into the earth?

Groundwater. Steam explosion blowing the entire reactor into the sky.


12 Mar 11 - 02:03 PM (#3112487)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: josepp

////As someone who has "worked in" nuclear power plants, you have never heard of "fuel rods"?////

No. I've heard of fuel plates. These have to arranged in a very specific way inside the reactor. The rods are made of hafnium and when they are inserted, they absorb the neutrons that cause fission thereby squelching the fission process which, it turn, shuts down the reactor if the all the rods are fully inserted simultaneously, i.e. a reactor scram. But even the shutdown has to be carefully monitored for some 30 hours or so due to what is called a build up of "poisons". Now, I haven't worked in a nuclear plant since the 80s and so there might be new designs but I haven't heard of any until now.

////What was your job there?////

I ran the electric plant.

////(sputter, sputter) The nuclear fuel is composed as cylindrical pellets, inserted into nickel alloy fuel rod and then with its brothers and sisters installed within the reactor vessel///

As I said, that may be a new design but every plant I worked in used fuel plates. These plates are very thin. Pellets? You're sure about that? The plates have to be very, very thin. You can't just have a big glob of fission material. And then they're encased in nickel, you say? How does the moderator get to them? What is the moderator?? Maybe they've had some technological breakthroughs since the 80s. First time I've heard of it though.

The rods I know of were hafnium and were necessary to control the rate of fission. I know of one plant that used water instead of rods but I never worked there and am not sure how that worked (I knew several people that did work there).

///The steam would be generated from the coolant heated by the reaction taking place within the fuel rods.///

But how is the reaction taking place, that's what puzzles me. You have to have a moderator and I don't know what that would be in the case of pellets encased in nickel. How are the neutrons getting to the fuel to trigger the fission??? Then the moderator heats up and then is carried along via huge pumps to a set of tubes into what is called a pressurizer which is heated by steam. There is water surrounding the tubes and the heat is transferred to this water of what is called the secondary. This is the water that becomes steam that powers the turbines that turned my generators. That can't let the primary water do that because, obviously, it's been inside the reactor.

////You're correct that an atomic explosion as with a bomb would be unlikely at this nuclear reactor.////

It would be impossible. It would be like two cars colliding into the shape of a huge cannon and balls and the chemicals in the cars' various systems forming a volatile substance that causes the cannon to go off and blow down a building or two. It's literally that remote of a possibility.

///What happened at Chernobyl, however, was bad enough to be "alarmed" at, don't you think?////

Yes, but you're talking about the Russians. Who would you trust to build a better plant? The Russians or the Japanese? I'm not saying this isn't a catastrophe athat can't get worse. An 8.9 earthquake? God knows what is still waiting to happen. But I am saying there won't be any nuclear explosions unless someone sets off a nuclear bomb.

////There the nuclear fuel rods melted down, caught fire, and there was a plume of highly radioactive gas which devastated the surrounding downwind area, and dispersed radiation worldwide.////

How could a cloud of gas disperse radiation? Radioactivty I could see. I mean, I suppose there might be ways but none I know of offhand.

I've never read about what caused the Chernobyl disaster but I would assume if the "fuel rods" melted it would less of a catastrophe than if the hafnium rods melted thereby not allowing the reactor to shutdown so that the fission rate balloons out of control.

///You say that is "unlikely to happen" with a 40 year old Japanese nuclear reactor./////

I'm saying it can't happen. A nuclear plant, no matter how old it is, cannot cause a nuclear explosion because it is not set up like a nuclear bomb. A meltdown is not a nuclear explosion.

////I don't think anyone should be reassured by your statement. But I could be wrong. I hope so.////

You have to be wrong or all my training was bullshit. I'm not saying a meltdown can't happen and wouldn't be catastrophe but I am saying a nuclear explosion simply cannot happen in a nuclear plant unless someone sets off a nuclear bomb inside it.


12 Mar 11 - 02:13 PM (#3112489)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Chernobyl was a graphite reactor that stopped radiation like little soldid walls..
3 Mile Island was a water reactor like the ones at Fukashima.
Uranium inside control cylinders of a metal designed to stop most radiation, is cooled by water. Water reactors do not use walls of graphite. Liquid sodium is used instead of water in some reactors but while it is more efficient in and accident if it leakds sodium burns a bit like Magnesium if it gets wet.


Could 3 Mile Island have gone critical and have had a huge explosion?
yes yes and yes.o

Did it?
no

It was amazingly close. It is said to have ben within a few degrees and perhaps only 50 pounds of additional melted uranium to obtain a chain reaction criticality.

One reason it did not blow up was that the specially coated floor of the reactor sloped away with the center poking up like a cone. The melted fuel flowed away from a central catching point and dispersed in a ring rather than a clump. Engineering prevented a full blwon atomic blast.






Yes gnu is right.

Cesium is a sign that some or all of the fuel has melted. How it flows and distributes on the floor is important for the reasons stated above.

Everything I have written here is from memory past and my current source3 is CNN IN - special earthquake tsunami edition.

If no Cesium was reported found in the air I too would have taken hope.

IF the pumps had worked I too would have taken hope.

I will take any valid hope. I welcome it.

Boric acid and seawater is at this moment flowing into one or more reactors. I called this procedure a band aid but ti is more like giving heroin to a terminal patient. It will settle the patient down but is not liekly of offering a cure. from contamination.

It is a last ditch effort to avoid criticality.


Can melted Uranium melt through concrete? r3einforced with rebar?

yes, unfortunetly this is one of those pesky design flaws in nuclear power plants.

Will it certainly melt through concrete?

no.






By the way Saturday Night Live did a sketch on 3 Mile Island.
They gave the job of cleaning up the water and melted fuel to an old black women Garret Morris and Jimmy Carter played by Akroyd was there to determine the cause of the melt down.
Carter discovered it was a Pepsi syndrome of a drink being spilled on the control panel.


At Fukashima once the other reactors were dwon for maintnence and water flooded the back up generators they no loner had a back up for the back up.

Its just one of those things that was sold as being impossible.


12 Mar 11 - 02:17 PM (#3112491)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Thanks Jack.

BTW... just thought of sommat that is kinda thread drift. Years ago I was at the nuke near me as an engineering student. The massive concrete containment walls and dome were touted as one of the "extra" safeguards of the CANDU reactor system. I also recall watching a video (hahaha... movie) of concrete burning in a materials course. As a matter of fact, the 6m thick containment walls degraded to a point where they were considered inadequate by initial design standards twenty odd years after construction.

Also, I phoned a radio talk show years ago and had a chat with Dr. Stanton Freidman in which he chastised me about my trepidation regarding the safety of nuke plants. I asked him how The Ocean Ranger (oil rig) sank... a failure of safety systems perhaps? After they went to commercial I was disconnected.

And, no, I have no support for my statements.

In the long run, I still support our nuke until truly, or at least reasonbly clean, energy production is doable.


12 Mar 11 - 02:24 PM (#3112495)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

josepp... pellets... rods... yup. It's all the rage these days.

And, when you post... "No. I've heard of fuel plates. These have to arranged in a very specific way inside the reactor. The rods are made of hafnium and when they are inserted,..." sommat just don't add up???


12 Mar 11 - 02:24 PM (#3112496)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Gnu points to a problem that has faced us for over 50 years. Why would vested interests in nuclear power worry about other ways to generate electricity when the have the solution wired--as far as the vested interests are concerned.

1) Some things seem clear. If I discovered a cure for cancer, it would put millions out of work.

2) If I discovered a cheap source to use instead of gas, it would put millions out of work.

Etc.

Our paradigm is all wrong.


12 Mar 11 - 02:26 PM (#3112497)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

I do not know if this plant has a sloping zircon shield.

IF we found the Fukashima plant designs we would among oursleves know more than what CNN is telling us.

We would know more about the fuel pellets, shielding etc.



joeseph, How is fission being allowed to occur...?

We may not know exactly however if the fuel did not have time to get covered since the earthquake and the tsunami were only about 5 minutes apart, then it is clearly possible that a hot reactor left in such an in between state would suffer runaway heat.


12 Mar 11 - 02:38 PM (#3112503)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Question... why can't they pull the rods?


12 Mar 11 - 02:38 PM (#3112504)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: josepp

I'm asking if pellets of Uranium are encased in nickel rods how do neutrons from the moderator reach them since the moderator is making no contact with the fuel? And how is the process of fission controlled in such a system?


12 Mar 11 - 03:54 PM (#3112538)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

josepp-

"I'm asking if pellets of Uranium are encased in nickel rods how do neutrons from the moderator reach them since the moderator is making no contact with the fuel? And how is the process of fission controlled in such a system?"

I don't know the answer to that for sure without refreshing my aging tiny brain with research. My understanding is that the fuel rod casings are not impermeable to whatever (gamma rays and alpha and beta particles) are being emitted by the breakdown of the uranium pellets. The boric acid has the capacity to absorb some of these emissions which helps moderate the rise in temperature.

It's also my understanding that the Japanese reactor is a light water reactor rather than a heavy water reactor such as we have festering in New Brunswick, Canada. The fact that it is also a boiling water reactor rather than a pressurized water reactor like most of the reactors in the States is another factor to consider. I'm not sure if it makes the reactor more safe or less safe. Well, any idiot realizes now that the Fukushira reactor is not safe now.

Charley Noble


12 Mar 11 - 04:35 PM (#3112567)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Here's another good resource for updates, Nuclear Information and Resource Service (NIRS), a nuclear power watchdog group headquartered in Washington, DC: click here for update!

Their full-time staff has the training and experience to frankly comment on such events.

I'm disturbed to learn there is also a "spent-fuel pool" in the basement of the destroyed reactor building; "spent-fuel" is actually high-level nuclear waste, old fuel rods, that remain deadly for thousands and thousands of years.

Charley Noble


12 Mar 11 - 04:44 PM (#3112580)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Charley... "...such as we have festering in New Brunswick, Canada."

???


12 Mar 11 - 04:49 PM (#3112583)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: josepp

///I don't know the answer to that for sure without refreshing my aging tiny brain with research. My understanding is that the fuel rod casings are not impermeable to whatever (gamma rays and alpha and beta particles) are being emitted by the breakdown of the uranium pellets. The boric acid has the capacity to absorb some of these emissions which helps moderate the rise in temperature.////

I just looked up the CANDU system. Totally unlike anything I worked on which were Westinghouse and General Electric plants. But, as I said, I stopped working in nuclear plants in the 80s and i don't know what systems other manufacturers were using.   

////It's also my understanding that the Japanese reactor is a light water reactor rather than a heavy water reactor such as we have festering in New Brunswick, Canada.////

I know light requires enriched uranium but since I never worked at a lightwater facility, I don't know which is better. Heavy is cheaper, I know that.

///The fact that it is also a boiling water reactor rather than a pressurized water reactor like most of the reactors in the States is another factor to consider. I'm not sure if it makes the reactor more safe or less safe. Well, any idiot realizes now that the Fukushira reactor is not safe now.////

I never worked with boiling water reactors. Never heard of it. Every plant I worked at was always pressurized. In fact, I can't see how that could possibly work. Letting the water boil in the plants I worked at would be EXTREMELY dangerous. It wouldn't be allowed. We couldn't even let the water transfer heat through nucleate boiling which is extremely efficient because it was too close to boiling at that point and so was too dangerous to allow.


12 Mar 11 - 05:18 PM (#3112595)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1

Hmmmm..maybe we could stop the meltdown by pouring all the Bankers and the Bastards down the chimneys, kind of block it all with shit.

Failing that, we could perhaps use all the billions of billions of billions that they've stolen from the world in general and see if that would smother the life out of things...


Failing *that*, we could all go shopping till we're quite literally dropping, with our credit cards (hey we may never have to pay a penny back!) buy 'Hello' magazine and a **very** large latte, then sit down, relax and look forward to the HUGE financial savings that will probably be big enough to wipe out all National Debts around the world, when we finally get to turn off ALL street lights forever, because we've just turned ourselves into a species that Glows in the Dark....

Maybe this is what happened to Glo-Worms...but on a much smaller scale?

It could also be the end of the IMF.....Gee, every cloud has a silver lining then..even the nuclear ones...



Excellent post, Bruce..


12 Mar 11 - 05:21 PM (#3112599)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Good work Charlie!

the info from that site has some amazing revelations regarding Fukashima.

Spent fuel rods are in the basement of the crippled reactor
Also they seem to be using a mix of unranium and plutonium for fuel.
For lower cost reasons they opted to repair cracks in the containment vessel with patchwork welded plates instead of replacing the whole thing.

I have't found what kind of floor shield is used yet but I will continue to look at the designs.

After reading the lastest bulletines I found that except for the above three findings, everything is on par what with what I have written and suspected so far.












The question that will not be answered in media soundbites is "what is the big deal if meltdowns occur"?.


hold on to your sphincter...


To my knowledge the largest hydrogen bombs probably contain less than a ton of nuclear material. They probably have less than half a ton.

During the decades in which atmospheric, space and underwater detonations of nuclear weapons were "tested", there were various health problems than ensued: childhood leukemmia rose 1000%, cancers of many unusual types rose dramaticly, lung and brain cancers more than doubled...

If each plant in trouble in Japan has between 20 tons of an enriched Uranium Plutonium mix fuel, along with an unknown quantity of old spent fuel stored in the basement and you multiply that by as much as 5 plants there are well more than 200 tons of highly radioactive fissile material, or nearly a quarter million pounds of Uranium with a small amount of plutonium and large amount of spent fuel.

When I ask myself about the amount of all the nukes all nations exploded numbering over 302, is the amount of nuclear fuel at those Japanese plants greater or less than the nukes we already exploded in our atmosphere??

I am guessing the Japanese Nuke plants have more. Way more.



If this is too troubling a question to consider, relax and please refer to FOX NEws who will assure you that radiation levels have gone down at Fukashima.



Charley's Nuke info site stated that the on site radiation monitors are off line as well as not being available for public information release.




_______________________________

What to expect from popular media if the plants melt down catastrophicly:
There will be many reassuring atatements that some radiation will be realsed but that there is no danger from this in the United STates.

We have the situation under control as we "Entomb the shut down reactors in a mountain of concrete.

There is nothing to worry about.

Move alon there is nothing to see here.

Left wing loons are blowing the incident and their self importence out of proportion.

The danger has passed but we should remain vigilant.

We dodged the big one.

We can all take a big sigh of relief.

Thanks to all the heros who battled the nuclear incident....    (this one I happen to agree with)


12 Mar 11 - 05:56 PM (#3112617)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

While sphincter factors are incredibly tight
It really is clear were not here to fight.
This really is as scary as hell
but hope still rings as clear as a bell


Reeling reactors and swirling disasters
are reaching a critical threshold.
How hot it can grow nobody knows
but one day we'll all know what death holds.

Nuclear power is the news of the hour
and Plutonium makes people turn sour
The Fukashima disaster's like WW2
in that few of us know what to do

Like George Carlin said off the top of his head
"I can watch earthquakes destroy the earth safe and snuggled in bed
It seems he was right, but more so.
My ass has just swallowed my torso


12 Mar 11 - 05:58 PM (#3112619)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

ANNOUNCED JUST MOMMENTS AGO


THE FUKASHIMA MELTDOWN IS NOW UNDERWAY.


12 Mar 11 - 06:08 PM (#3112625)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

In Japan plant, frantic efforts to avoid meltdown
(AP) – 18 minutes ago
TOKYO (AP) — Inside the troubled nuclear power plant, officials knew the risks were high when they decided to vent radioactive steam from a severely overheated reactor vessel. They knew a hydrogen explosion could occur, and it did. The decision still trumped the worst-case alternative — total nuclear meltdown.
At least for the time being.
The chain of events started Friday when a magnitude-8.9 earthquake and tsunami severed electricity to the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear complex 170 miles (270 kilometers) northeast of here, crippling its cooling system. Then, backup power did not kick in properly at one of its units.
From there, conditions steadily worsened, although government and nuclear officials initially said things were improving. Hours after the explosion, they contended that radiation leaks were reduced and that circumstances had gotten better at the 460-megawatt Unit 1. But crisis after crisis continued to develop or be revealed.
Without power, and without plant pipes and pumps that were destroyed in the explosion of the most-troubled reactor's containment building, authorities resorted to drawing seawater in an attempt to cool off the overheated uranium fuel rods.
Robert Alvarez, senior scholar at the Institute for Policy Studies and former senior policy adviser to the U.S. secretary of energy, said in a briefing for reporters that the seawater was a desperate measure.
"It's a Hail Mary pass," he said.
He said that the success of using seawater and boron to cool the reactor will depend on the volume and rate of their distribution. He said the dousing would need to continue nonstop for days.
Another key, he said, was the restoration of electrical power, so that normal cooling systems can be restored.
Officials placed Dai-ichi Unit 1, and four other reactors, under states of emergency Friday because operators had lost the ability to cool the reactors using usual procedures. Local evacuations were ordered.
Officials began venting radioactive steam at Unit 1 to relieve pressure inside the reactor vessel, which houses the overheated uranium fuel.
Concerns escalated dramatically Saturday when that unit's containment building exploded.
It turned out that officials were aware that the steam contained hydrogen, acknowledged Shinji Kinjo, spokesman for the government Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency. More importantly, they also were aware they were risking an explosion by deciding to vent the steam.
The significance of the hydrogen began to come clear late Saturday:
—Officials decided to reduce rising pressure inside the reactor vessel, so they vented some of the steam buildup. They needed to do that to prevent the entire structure from exploding, and thus starting down the road to a meltdown.
—At the same time, in order to keep the reactor fuel cool, and also prevent a meltdown, operators needed to keep circulating more and more cool water on the fuel rods.
—Temperature in the reactor vessel apparently kept rising, heating the zirconium cladding that makes up the fuel rod casings. Once the zirconium reached 2,200 degrees Fahrenheit (1,200 Celsius), it reacted with the water, becoming zirconium oxide and hydrogen.
—When the hydrogen-filled steam was vented from the reactor vessel, the hydrogen reacted with oxygen, either in the air or water outside the vessel, and exploded.
A similar "hydrogen bubble" had concerned officials at the 1979 Three Mile Island nuclear disaster in Pennsylvania until it dissipated.
If the temperature inside the Fukushima reactor vessel continued to rise even more — to roughly 4,000 degrees Fahrenheit (2,200 Celsius) — then the uranium fuel pellets would start to melt.
According to experts interviewed by The Associated Press, any melted fuel would eat through the bottom of the reactor vessel. Next, it would eat through the floor of the already-damaged containment building. At that point, the uranium and dangerous byproducts would start escaping into the environment.
At some point in the process, the walls of the reactor vessel — 6 inches (15 centimeters) of stainless steel — would melt into a lava-like pile, slump into any remaining water on the floor, and potentially cause an explosion much bigger than the one caused by the hydrogen. Such an explosion would enhance the spread of radioactive contaminants.
If the reactor core became exposed to the external environment, officials would likely began pouring cement and sand over the entire facility, as was done at the 1986 Chernobyl nuclear accident in the Ukraine, Peter Bradford, a former commissioner of the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission, said in a briefing for reporters.
At that point, Bradford added, "many first responders would die."

AP National Writer Jeff Donn reported from Boston.


12 Mar 11 - 06:24 PM (#3112631)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

999-

And that's the good news, but thanks for the update.

Peter Bradford was chair of our Public Utilities Commission here in Maine after he left the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. We respected his knowledge and experience, although we certainly debated him rigorously on a wide range of nuclear related issues. But he's no fool.

I haven't much to add at this point.

I could score some points with josepp above on "boiling water reactors." But I won't except to repeat that Vermont Yankee is the only operating boiling water reactor in the States, over 40 years old, and quite similar to the old reactor at Fukushima which evidently is experiencing meltdown. In fact, according to Wkipedia, all the reactors at Fukushima are "boiling water" reactors. Please check it out if you're unfamiliar with this type and are interesting in the question.

Charley Noble


12 Mar 11 - 06:29 PM (#3112637)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Well that sucks.


12 Mar 11 - 06:31 PM (#3112639)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

This looks like a reliable source:

http://uvdiv.blogspot.com/2011/03/some-links-on-fukushima-daiichi-1.html


12 Mar 11 - 06:44 PM (#3112646)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: bobad

As of 6:26 EST

"Tokyo (CNN) -- A meltdown may be under way at one of Fukushima Daiichi's nuclear power reactors in northern Japan, an official with Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency told CNN Sunday.

"There is a possibility, we see the possibility of a meltdown," said Toshihiro Bannai, director of the agency's international affairs office, in a telephone interview from the agency's headquarters in Tokyo. "At this point, we have still not confirmed that there is an actual meltdown, but there is a possibility."

Though he said engineers have been unable to get close enough to the core to know what's going on, he based his conclusion on the fact that they measured radioactive cesium and radioactive iodine in the air Saturday night.

"What we have seen is only the slight indication from a monitoring post of cesium and iodine," he said. Since then, he said, plant officials have injected sea water and boron into the plant in an effort to cool its nuclear fuel.

We have some confidence, to some extent, to make the situation to be stable status," he said. "We actually have very good confidence that we will resolve this."

A state of emergency has been declared for it and two of the other five reactors at the same complex, he said. Three are in a safe, shut-down state, he said. "The other two still have some cooling systems, but not enough capacity."

From CNN's Tom Watkins


12 Mar 11 - 06:46 PM (#3112648)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Okay... yet another perhaps stunned question... if a nuke power plant does not "boil water", how does it create enough kinetic energy to move a turbine to create electricity?


12 Mar 11 - 06:59 PM (#3112654)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

There are two distinctly diffrent news announcments regarding Fukashima. The Ambassador from Japan is repeating in even tones that he has no evidence of a meltdown and that all relief efforts are beng carried out on schedule. His language is cloaked in terms that he may not be accused of lieing. "I have not seen///" "I have not been given reason to believe..."

The announcment in Japan from nuclear plant officials that a meltdown is underway is a courageous and honest approach that honors any volunteers who march into the jaws of hellish death to do what they can to save the other reactors.

Honesty is always the best policy except for individuals who would collapse under its weight.


The two tiered media announcments of this nuclear disaster is wise in that it allows people who would fall apart to have something to cling to while smart people still get the information they need.

At minimum people who did not evacuate yet will be motivated to move now.


12 Mar 11 - 07:03 PM (#3112658)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

That is al a fancy nuke plant is gnu, a big kettle to make steam to run a turbine surrounded by magnets to create electicity.

These bad reactors are whistling steam like crazy until someone takes it off the stove.

Cup o tea dearie?


12 Mar 11 - 07:14 PM (#3112667)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Perhaps I asked too soon... "a pressurized water reactor like most of the reactors in the States is another factor to consider" from josepp's post.

I can see (kinda) that if the heavy water was heated to super and funnelled properly it could spin a turbine without gas formation. Seems odd at first thought, to me. Just never thought of it that way... am a silly engineer by trade, not a make-a-nickel engineer.


12 Mar 11 - 07:16 PM (#3112668)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

A pressurized water reactor uses a heat exchanger to boil the water.

http://www.nucleartourist.com/type/pwr.htm


12 Mar 11 - 07:19 PM (#3112671)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL

The pictures of terrified toddlers being scanned for radiation are heartbreaking. They are completely traumatized by the earthquake and aftershocks. Now men in odd suits (carefully protecting themselves) are seeing if they are "hot".
Meantime, a coastal town in another part of japan is "missing" about half of its population - 9500 people can't be accounted for.

Ironic isn't it? 50+ years ago we, the United States, reigned nuclear horrors down on these same people. Now we are scrambling to protect them from the same horror.


12 Mar 11 - 07:19 PM (#3112672)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL

Another irony? Rained not reigned.


12 Mar 11 - 07:20 PM (#3112673)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Once again, thanks Jack.


12 Mar 11 - 07:48 PM (#3112684)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

Now we are scrambling to protect them from the same horror.

...from an American nuclear reactor.

In the late 1950s when the decision to build it was made, Japan would have no choice in taking General Electric's product. The point of the transaction was to boost GE's profits. The fact that the reactor was nowhere near safe enough for Japanese conditions wouldn't have been considered.


12 Mar 11 - 08:15 PM (#3112696)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

speaking of irony...satire alert;


Whew, The Ambassador from Japan says everything is fine. Thank goodness we can all breath a big sigh of relief now. Thank God
we have no reason to distrust Japanese Ambassadors.


12 Mar 11 - 08:34 PM (#3112702)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Little Hawk

Come now, Donuel. ;-) That's being a bit nasty. The Japanese ambassador in December '41 had been sent a text (in code) specifically worded as an official declaration of war from Japan on the USA. He was instructed to give it to Cordell Hull at a specific time (shortly prior to the attack going in at Pearl Harbour) so that the state of war would officially exist prior to that hostile act. He failed to do so on time, because his incompetent office staff had so much trouble decoding the message and laboriously typing it out a letter at a time that they didn't have it translated in time for him to deliver it on schedule.

This utterly humiliated the Japanese ambassador, and it horrified Admiral Yamamoto when he found out about it, because he knew the American nation would never forgive a "sneak attack" launched prior to the declaration of war. (In fact, they'd never have forgiven any kind of major attack like that, but Yamamoto, like all Japanese, had a rather medieval concept of honor, so it was a major concern to him at least.)

I don't see how any of the above translates to the Japanese ambassador being untrustworthy. He did what his job required, and it was not his intention to deceive the USA regarding Japanese intentions, but to deliver that message as ordered to...and on time.

The attack was scheduled to occur about half an hour after delivery of the message, but the message didn't get translated on time.

The Japanese ambassador was a man put in an impossible position by his own government and his poorly trained office staff, and he should not be blamed for what happened. (In any case, both the American and Japanese governments knew darned well that war was coming between them...and very soon. And the military on both sides knew it too. There was really no doubt of it. The only question was, on which day would it happen? Only....the general public in both countries was not informed about that.)

You could say that the people who were tricked were the ordinary citizenry.   In both countries. They (and the ordinary servicemen on the Allied side) were the ones who got blindsided.

None of that was the Japanese ambassador's fault.


12 Mar 11 - 08:50 PM (#3112709)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: josepp

///Okay... yet another perhaps stunned question... if a nuke power plant does not "boil water", how does it create enough kinetic energy to move a turbine to create electricity?///

In the types of plants I worked in, the water in the reactor that heats up and is moved by pumps through a pressurizer and steam generator was never allowed to boil. The pressuirzer prevented that. The water then passes through heat exchange tubes in the steam generator and back to the reactor. This system is called the primary.

On the other side of the tubes is a different, unconnected system of water that received the heat energy from the primary. It is called the secondary. It DOES allow the water to boil inside the steam generator (which is basically a boiler) and that steam is superheated and moving through pipes at a high rate of speed. It must be very dry when it enters the turbine. Very small droplets in the steam will tear up the turbine blades so there must not be any droplets. The spinning turbine then turns the generators to generate power which goes to a power distribution switchboard which is what I operated and oversaw for a number of years.

I take it that in a boiling reactor, there is no secondary system. The water must leave the reactor as steam and go directly to the turbines. That sounds dangerous as hell to me but it is what it is.


12 Mar 11 - 08:59 PM (#3112712)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Thank you again josepp. Pressure does supress boiling. In space you can boil water at 100 below zero.

Also a heat exchanger does seem to be an inefficient link in the chain don't you think? Do they use that for safety reasons or protect the pipes from extremely high pressures that steam produces?


The floor of this reactor does not seem to be as advanced as 3 Mile Island. So far it looks like it is just concrete with two big valves at the bottom.


12 Mar 11 - 09:06 PM (#3112714)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

jeez I even gave you a satire alert.


12 Mar 11 - 09:07 PM (#3112716)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: josepp

////None of that was the Japanese ambassador's fault.////

While I pity the sailors killed at Pearl Harbor because of the incompetence of their superiors, I have no overall sympathy for the US. The planes were spotted a number of times and reported and nobody did anything. That is unforgiveable. I am a 6-year veteran of the United States Navy and I was trained that first you get feedback and make observations before assuming the watch--a pre-watch tour, it's called. Then you get a turnover from the watch you are relieving. it is your responsibility to make sure what he tells you gibes with the info you gathered on your pre-watch tour. If it does not, you refuse to take that watch until he gives your a correct turnover.

Then anything that appears out of the ordinary on your watch you must investigate, report and monitor. If anything bad happens on your watch--YOU are responsible--YOU ARE. I remember a guy went to mast because a steam pipe ruptured on his watch. A valve was closed that had no business being closed. Turns out the previous watch closed for a reason no one knows. The other guy came down and took over the watch and the pipe burst on his watch. He insisted it wasn't his fault. "Did you take a pre-watch tour and make sure all the right vales were opened and closed?" he was asked. "No." "Then you're responsible for what happened because you were on watch." He was reduced a step in rank. The Navy was very pissed at him. What happened to the other guy? Nothing.

So with Pearl Harbor, someone who had the duty that morning dismissed reports of unidentified planes and so he is responsible for the attack on Pearl Harbor by military standards. That's way military responsbility was exercised on me and my fellow sailors and that's the way I, in turn, exercise it on every other person in the military. A report was made to you on our watch, you failed to investigate it, an attack occurred as a direct result, therefore you are responsible for it happening and should be punished accordingly.

It was his job to watch for invaders, he didn't do his job. If that is how a nation trains its soldiers then tough shit.


12 Mar 11 - 09:27 PM (#3112718)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Little Hawk

Yes, Donuel, I know...but I just can't avoid talking about history. I love it. ;-)

josepp - You are correct that one man failed to pass along a message from the radar station about a large incoming group of unidentified aircraft. That was because he assumed that they were a group of (unarmed) American B-17s coming in from California. On the one hand, it was not too surprising an error...on the other hand, he should have checked into it more carefully before making a snap judgement!!!

A Japanese midget sub was spotted in restricted waters very near the harbour awhile before the attack too, and it was sunk by an American picket destroyer! Yet no one followed that up by issuing a general alert.

These were cases of considerable carelessness.

I have plenty of sympathy for all the people who died (or were injured) on both sides at Pearl Harbour and after Pearl Harbour. They were all doing the job they'd been trained to do and doing the very best they could, but they were among the millions of victims of power politics who have fallen in war. They just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Sort of like the Japanese at this moment, after the earthquake.


12 Mar 11 - 09:30 PM (#3112719)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

NHK bulletin

The Nuclear energy official said they are pumping sea water on both #1 reactor and #3 reactor. I hope they have Doug Flutie spraying the sea water.


When the spokesman for the N plants said there was no radiation high enough to be immediately harmful to human health, I saw him lick his lips and take a deep breath at the end of that sentence.
He also explained that wind direction may be the cause for such a wide varience in observed radiation levels.


Clearly this is a job for McGruber.
Actually it almost sounds as though he is in charge.


12 Mar 11 - 09:32 PM (#3112722)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

OK you soldiers, stop it.

No one here is going to refight WW 2,
We have a meltdown to fight.

Do I have any volunteers?

















Anyone,

?anyone at all?


12 Mar 11 - 09:41 PM (#3112724)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

You Soldier, yes you. Whats your name?

Private Jose Immenez

Very well Private Immenez, get in there and clean up that reactor.

Sir? How do I do that sir?

Just get a mop and bucket and get to it.

Yes sir, where do I empty the water sir?

In the sea soldier

Sir where sir?

the sea

Si?

Yes

Yes sir?







I'll get me hat


12 Mar 11 - 09:45 PM (#3112726)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

It's time to hunker down in the basement if you haven't already evacuated.

There is a theory that suggests that "boiling water" reactors such as Vermont Yankee and the Fukushima (I won't disclose why I am able to spell this word correctly on a public forum) are actually safer than pressured light water reactors. But it never made sense to me. I liked the concept of a totally secondary systems of pipes coming in to collect heat, exit, and then boil steam to run the turbines. Of course the secondary steam tubes tended to clog up after a while...

This is so much like some terrible flashback to Three Mile Island and Chernobyl.

I'm not sure I'll dare to watch the news tomorrow.

Charley Noble


12 Mar 11 - 10:49 PM (#3112743)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: number 6

doesn't look good ..

"We are assuming that a meltdown has occurred" at a quake-damaged nuclear reactor, Japan's chief Cabinet secretary says. "


biLL


12 Mar 11 - 10:50 PM (#3112746)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Little Hawk

Yes sir, Donuel, sir! Copy that.

I am well stocked up on iodine. You never know when it might come in handy.


12 Mar 11 - 11:09 PM (#3112752)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: J-boy

There's no sense in getting all worked up about something we have no control over. The world will still be here tomorrow. If it's not we won't know about it anyway.


12 Mar 11 - 11:11 PM (#3112753)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Japanese society is special in the sense of their extreme politeness embedded in the language. They have a deeply ingrained self determinism. I understand why the Japanese government is talking out of both sides of their face, their public officials do not want to have turmoil and attacks against contaminated victims who are fleeing to other areas but they do want some knowledge of the actual dangers of a nuclear disaster.

Since Hiroshima the folklore of radiation and monsters is near the heart of their psyche. Godzilla, there I said it. They are facing their worst monster movie scenario. Godzilla vs Mothra and Fukashima. Speaking of monsters I wonder what the Yakuza is up to.

Japan is nearing the 20th year of thier recession and absurd housing costs. The malaise of young Japanese society is profound. They have a very high suicide rate compared to the USA. Dealing with very real challenges will be shocking for japan's youth.


Regarding the status of what seems to be a limited version of meltdowns in reactor 1 and 3, the fate of Japan and global pollution is literally determined by the way the cookie crumbles.

I hope the fuel crumbles in a dispersed fashion and does not decide to go critical, even in one little tiny spot.


12 Mar 11 - 11:20 PM (#3112756)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: number 6

Well said Donuel.

biLL


12 Mar 11 - 11:21 PM (#3112757)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Regular ol reddish Iodine can kill you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Potassium Iodide is the stuff that can be consumed by pill or by eye dropper.

jeez, where is John from Kansas ? He would have remembered that crucial fact. There is also a prescription Iodine mouth wash for oral surgury patients.


12 Mar 11 - 11:31 PM (#3112761)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: J-boy

The sky isn't falling. But if it makes you feel more alive then by all means have at it.


12 Mar 11 - 11:36 PM (#3112762)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Little Hawk

Yes, I know the difference, Donuel. There's the iodine you put on a cut to disinfect it...very poisonous if taken orally. Then there's the oral type that is taken with an eyedropper. I've been taking the latter daily for about a year now anyway, on the advice of my doctor, to help regulate the thyroid. It tastes good and has no harmful effects. It says right on the bottle: "Take 10 drops in water or juice once daily."

It's called "Iodine Drops" on the label, but it is Potassium Iodide, as shown in the Ingredients section.


12 Mar 11 - 11:36 PM (#3112763)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Tune in to CNN tommorow when we all hope to see Anderson Cooper lowered by helicopter into Reactor #1 like a tea bag, right through its non existent roof and then broadcast right beside the containment vessel.


12 Mar 11 - 11:45 PM (#3112767)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Little Hawk

Yeah, right... ;-) Where's Geraldo Rivera when we need him?


13 Mar 11 - 03:35 AM (#3112789)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Ring of Fire
10% of the World's Volcanoes
Japan

Nuclear Power Plants



Do any of these first three make the fourth a good idea, or am I missing the blindingly obvious?


13 Mar 11 - 09:19 AM (#3112876)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Jim Martin

Sorry, have got neither the time nor patience to go through all the postings to see if this has already been raised - my understanding of the problem seems to be that they need to urgently get in coolant to the reactors but probably need a power system to do it. The stand-by systems (generator then batteries)which should have kicked in failed because of the extreme circumstances (flooding).


13 Mar 11 - 09:31 AM (#3112879)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

Yes that has already been covered, several times.

What's so great about your opinion that you need to express it without making any effort to read what other people have said?


13 Mar 11 - 10:39 AM (#3112900)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Been mulling this over for much of the night. This morning there doesn't seem to be much more factual info to factor in. The newspapers are full of inept attempts by reporters to correlate info that they're not familiar with (not surprising) and if the situation wasn't so potentially tragic it would be very amusing.

Some have already pointed out above that this "accident in process" cannot repeat what happened to the Chernobyl reactor in 1986 and they are correct. The key differences include at Chernobyl the use of charcoal bricks to moderate the fission process and the lack of a containment vessel. When Chernobyl experienced meltdown and there was a hydrogen explosion the charcoal caught fire and its smoke was the source of a highly radioactive plume that spread worldwide for days. If there had been a containment vessel and a containment dome such as we have in nuclear plants in the States it's possible that a whole lot less radiation would have escaped into the environment; some would still have had to be released as pressure built up in the dome, as was done at Three Mile Island after its partial meltdown in 1979.

By the way one CNN "expert" last evening claimed that the malfunctioning Three Mile Island reactor was repaired and brought back on line. No, that never happened. Unit 2 was too badly damaged and contaminated to resume operations. It's sister Unit 1 however continued to operate.

Evidently the reactor containment vessel is still intact at Fukushima, despite the destruction of the building surrounding it during the spectacular hydrogen explosion yesterday morning, or so it's claimed by the nuclear industry spokesmen in Japan.

I'll be very surprised if there is not a second hydrogen explosion soon at one of the two other reactors in the Fukushima complex that were experiencing the same kind of cooling pump failure as the unit whose building exploded, unless the Japanese are more successful with auxiliary generators on-site to reactivate the cooling pumps.

No one knows how successful pumping saltwater in and around the reactor containment vessel will be, which is supposed to be happening now at Unit 1. That's never been tried before. One wonders what they plan to do with the huge volume of radioactive waste water created, other than pour it back into the sea...not to mention the clouds of radioactive steam created...

No one really knows what will happen if the fuel rods at Unit 1 do completely melt down. In the partial meltdown at Three Mile Island, the melt ate its way through the reactor containment vessel, swirled around the floor, and then ate its way back in! Not many people ever read the follow-up report that was published a year later. It seems unlikely that the melt would behave like a critical mass highly compressed in a bomb's containment, which also needs to be triggered by an explosion to achieve its classic nuclear explosion. That's the good news in what will be a very troubling 24 hours.

Oh, and there is the other nearby Fukushima complex where some of the reactors are also experiencing similar loss of coolant problems. Again, too much to focus on. I need more coffee.

Oh, and with regard to iodide tablets. The time to take them to protect your thyroid is before you are exposed to radioactive iodide, not after. That way the thyroid will no longer have the capacity to absorb the radioactive iodide. It's also true that too much non-radioactive iodide can make you very ill. Check on-line for the proper dosage.

Charley Noble


13 Mar 11 - 11:10 AM (#3112910)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6

It's a goat f**k out of control.

thanks for the advice concerning iodide tablets Charley.

biLL


13 Mar 11 - 12:10 PM (#3112941)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Here's some more things to ponder:

Japan's chief cabinet secretary Yukio Edano told reporters earlier on Sunday that a partial meltdown in Unit 3 at the Fukushima facility was "highly possible".
"At the risk of raising further public concern, we cannot rule out the possibility of an explosion (another hydrogen explosion?)," Edano said. "If there is an explosion, however, there would be no significant impact on human health.


I wouldn't feel reassured by the above statement, especially combined with the new statement from NIRS:

Update from Nuclear Information Resources Service (NIRS):

UPDATE, 5:30 pm, Saturday, March 12, 2011. Reuters is reporting that Fukushima Daiichi Unit 3 has lost cooling capability: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/12/us-japan-quake-nuclear-cooling-idUSTRE72B3GI20110312

This is of particular concern since, unlike all of the other reactors in trouble, Unit 3 has been using plutonium-based MOX (mixed oxide) fuel since September 10, 2010. Consequences of an accident at a MOX-powered reactor would be even more severe than at a more typical uranium-powered reactor...

Ugh!

Charley Noble


13 Mar 11 - 12:19 PM (#3112946)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Charley, why is the news so damned quiet about all this?


13 Mar 11 - 12:37 PM (#3112954)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

BBC News

With the loss of power at reactor 3, and with its valves and pumps damaged by the tsunami, emergency workers were pumping in seawater mixed with boron - which disrupts nuclear chain reactions - to cool the rods.

But one report suggested the tops of the rods had briefly been exposed.

Technicians opened valves, allowing small amounts of radioactive vapour to escape in a bid to reduce the pressure in the unit.

They performed a similar operation on the first reactor, hours before the explosion that wrecked the building it was housed in.


13 Mar 11 - 01:28 PM (#3112970)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL

One BBC story claimed that the people of Japan have developed a sort of folklore about the effects of radiation. They believe in monster babies and the like. There is a genuine concern that people evacuating from the area of the nuclear plants will be attacked.
More good news.


13 Mar 11 - 01:35 PM (#3112974)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Potassium Iodide

Cesium mimics Potassium in the human body. If your body needs Potassium it will grab Cesium and put it right where Potassium would go.

Potassium Iodide liquid drops promotes uptake of the real elements and will take less of the radioactive mimics.

I wrote about these drops early in the thread because my sister died from radioactive Iodine about 10 years ago. The process is too dreadful to describe but suffice it to say that at her death she had had her stomach, thyroid, intestines , spllen and pancrous removed.
She survived on IV ATP for over a year.




The fuel at Fukashima is a Uranium Plutonium mixture.


HOW MANY PLUTONIUM ATOMS CAN YOU BREATH SAFELY.

As long as not even one atom remains lodged in your lung or passageway you can breathe as much as you want for a few seconds.

Even one atom    of PU lodged in your lung will kill tissue and then promote cancerous growth.

The Rocky Flats Plutonium plant in Colorado has released dozens of lbs of PU through fire and spill. So we are exposed to PU concievably very often and we still have a viable albeit cancer striken society.


Another report of yet a third reactor (not one of the Fukashima reactors) is reported to have lost all cooling to the core. Since this reactor is even closer to Tokyo the reporting strikes me as being realtively hush hush.


13 Mar 11 - 01:39 PM (#3112976)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Bill D

"...why is the news so damned quiet about all this?"

The 'news'...meaning mainstream media... is seeing what we see- many conflicting reports and opinions about what actually IS happening, as well as the significance and likely outcomes.
They have been roundly criticized in the past for jumping on ONE opinion and getting it wrong. Plus, so many people rely only on CNN or BBC or Fox...etc, that they could cause widespread confusion & panic if they say too much.
   I am seeing 'almost' all the guesses and possibilities at least mentioned on the news.
One of the most seemingly credible persons... a nuclear engineer... said that, in his opinion, even a 'meltdown' in THIS plant, given the conditions, while serious, would NOT breach the containment vessel and would not create a widespread radiation hazard.

So... I tune in every now & then to see if that has changed. So far, it hasn't. I simply cannot take constant dwelling on it.


13 Mar 11 - 01:42 PM (#3112979)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Bettynh

Well, I can't find it again, but I did see that one worker from the power plants has died of radiation poisoning. They're testing evacuees for radiation now. They've admitted that they found a few. Apparently, the population around the nuclear plants wasn't given iodine to keep on hand for this situation (I know coastal NH residents all have been issued a supply, to be taken only if danger threatens).

Soo... we're sending trauma doctors to an area well served by modern hospitals (remember the trauma stations set up in NY on 9/11 that had no business?). It will be a test to see if any emergency system is nimble enough to start sending oncologists and radiologists.


13 Mar 11 - 02:06 PM (#3112993)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Here's what NIRS said about how the nuclear plant worker died:


UPDATE, 1 pm, Saturday, March 12, 2011. World Nuclear News is reporting that a worker who
was apparently trapped in the exhaust stack of Unit 1 at Fukushima Daiichi has died.

It's unclear whether he died from radiation poisoning, but he's certainly a victim of this unfolding disaster.

"...why is the news so damned quiet about all this?"

I agree with Bill on this one. Even the "experts are all thumbs when the meltdown comes" as we used to sing in the halcyon days of my youth.

Consult NIRS or Wikipedia for more accurate info. The media is good for general updates on what has happened, not why it happened or what might happen next.

Charley Noble


13 Mar 11 - 02:10 PM (#3112994)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Oh, and now the weather pattern has taken a bad turn for Japan. The winds for the last few days have been blowing out to sea. Starting tomorrow the winds will be blowing in from the sea, counterclockwise as a low passes off-shore.

Charley Noble


13 Mar 11 - 02:27 PM (#3113005)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Not to worry, Charlie. You will get to breathe the radioactive particles. Eventually the winds will change and carry radiation across the north Pacific, through Alaska and Canada, and eventually reach you in New England. Slow, but inevitable.


13 Mar 11 - 02:32 PM (#3113007)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Donuel... "Even one atom    of PU lodged in your lung will kill tissue and then promote cancerous growth."

My old man (RCAF, Ground Nuclear Defense) told me a long time ago that tobacco causes emphysema and other nasties but it does not cause cancer directly. Rather, it allows cancer to be caused by sunstances which become lodged in the lung and are either radioactive themselves or are metals which can be affected by magnetic fields induced by close proximity to electric current.

And, no, I don't care to discuss it any further with anyone for any reason whatsoever.


13 Mar 11 - 03:30 PM (#3113037)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL

15 patients at a hospital six miles from the reactor have been diagnosed with radiation poisoning. One ambulance is "contaminated". Not sure what that means.

Meantime a volcano in southern Japan has erupted breaking windows and spewing debris. Those poor people, Enough is enough.


13 Mar 11 - 04:02 PM (#3113052)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

Tepco Press release regarding the state of Fukushima reactor complex


13 Mar 11 - 04:15 PM (#3113056)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Peter-

Thanks for posting the link to the company press release.

One detail is particularly disquieting to me:

"We are currently coordinating with the relevant authorities and
departments as to how to secure the cooling water to cool down
the water in the spent nuclear fuel pool."

The "spent fuel pool" is as I've mentioned above where they keep the highly radioactive "spent" fuel rods in storage after they are no longer useful as fuel for the reactor. They still need to be kept cool which is why they are submerged in the pool. If there is a loss of coolant supply to the pool, there is a risk of a catastrophic release of radiative isotopes from there. There is typically no containment provided or required for a spent fuel pool. There was once an incident in the States where the level of water in the spent fuel pool dropped nine feet before someone noticed what was happening; the problem was then corrected but everyone had a good scare.

Charley Noble


13 Mar 11 - 06:10 PM (#3113103)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Tepco releases not available at the moment, a new one probably being prepared. Importantly, the last one said water levels restored.
----------------------------

Looking at Hawai'i, the state seems not to have sustained any severe damage. Several homes near beach level lost, and some condo/rental units severely damaged. Seven homes lost on Kealakekua Bay. Current State estimates are several million dollars damage to beach installations, piers, etc. Perhaps $1 million damage at Kailua-Kona Pier. Big Island authorities breathed a sigh of relief that there was not more damage.
No lives lost, but a few minor injuries.
(Above gleaned from Honolulu Staradvertiser.com and Hawai'i Tribune-Herald (Hilo)).


13 Mar 11 - 06:26 PM (#3113110)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Another news update via NIRS:

UPDATE 2:30 pm, Sunday, March 13, 2011. Tokyo Electric Power is reporting that some six
feet of the core of Unit-3 remains uncovered and has been for some time despite efforts to
pump water into the core. Tepco speculates there may be leaking pipes and water is not
remaining in the core. A translation of part of the statement from our Japanese colleagues:
"The fuel's integrity has been considerably compromised. We are assessing a considerably
serious situation."

Six feet of core uncovered is not reassuring for Unit 3, not to be confused with Unit 1 whose reactor building blew its top off.

Charley Noble


13 Mar 11 - 06:58 PM (#3113126)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: bobad

"Unit 1 whose reactor building blew its top off."

From what I gather that was sheet metal cladding of a building that was housing the overhead crane used to service the reactor blown apart due to a hydrogen gas explosion. The reactor containment housing remains intact.


13 Mar 11 - 08:07 PM (#3113159)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Bobad-

We are both correct.

The building with housed the reactor containment vessel for Unit 1 was blown apart by a hydrogen gas explosion, leaving its frame exposed to the sunshine, while the site operators claim that the containment vessel has not been breached. Sorry if I was not being clear.

The video is more expressive as you can clearly see the initial shock wave of the explosion followed by smoke.

Now I was only aware of Vermont Yankee as a similar reactor to the ones at Fukushima. But there are actually some 23 nuclear reactors in the States similar in design to the ones that are melting down at the Fukushima complex. Here's the summary and assessment from NIRS:

General Electric Mark I Reactors in the United States

The Fukushima Daiichi Unit 1 reactor that exploded on Saturday, March 12, 2011, was a General Electric Mark I reactor. This design has been criticized by nuclear experts and even Nuclear Regulatory Commission staff for decades as being susceptible to explosion and containment failure.

As early as 1972, Dr. Stephen Hanuaer, an Atomic Energy Commission safety official, recommended that the pressure suppression system be discontinued and any further designs not be accepted for construction permits. Shortly thereafter, three General Electric nuclear engineers publicly resigned their prestigious positions citing dangerous shortcomings in the GE design.

An NRC analysis of the potential failure of the Mark I under accident conditions concluded in a 1985 report that Mark I failure within the first few hours following core melt would appear rather likely. In 1986, Harold Denton, then the NRC's top safety official, told an industry trade group that the "Mark I containment, especially being smaller with lower design pressure, in spite of the suppression pool, if you look at the WASH 1400 safety study, you'll find something like a 90% probability of that containment
failing."

For more information, see: http://www.nirs.org/factsheets/bwrfact.htm

Reactor   Location Size   Year operation began
Browns Ferry 1* Decatur, AL 1065 MW 1974
Browns Ferry 2* Decatur, AL 1118 MW 1974
Browns Ferry 3* Decatur, AL 1114 MW 1976
Brunswick 1* Southport, NC 938 MW 1976
Brunswick 2* Southport, NC 900 MW 1974
Cooper*   Nebraska City, NE 760 MW 1974
Dresden 2* Morris, IL 867 MW 1971
Dresden 3* Morris, IL 867 MW 1971
Duane Arnold* Cedar Rapids, IA 581 MW 1974
Hatch 1* Baxley, GA 876 MW 1974
Hatch 2* Baxley, GA 883 MW 1978
Fermi 2   Monroe, MI 1122 MW 1985
Hope Creek** Hancocks Bridge, NJ 1061 MW 1986
Fitzpatrick* Oswego, NY 852 MW 1974
Monticello* Monticello, MN 572 MW 1971
Nine Mile Point 1* Oswego, NY 621 MW 1974
Oyster Creek* Toms River, NJ 619 MW 1971
Peach Bottom 2* Lancaster, PA 1112 MW 1973
Peach Bottom 3* Lancaster, PA 1112 MW 1974
Pilgrim** Plymouth, MA 685 MW 1972
Quad Cities 1* Moline, IL 867 MW 1972
Quad Cities 2* Moline, IL 867 MW 1972
Vermont Yankee* Vernon, VT 620 MW 1973

*has received 20-year license extension from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission
**20-year license renewal extension is under review by Nuclear Regulatory Commission

Of course it's doubtful whether the NRC ever took into consideration a tsunami compromising the emergency back-up system.

Charley Noble


13 Mar 11 - 08:18 PM (#3113165)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

The PM of Japan says the nuclear disaster is now stablized.

I am thinking that the reports that the temperatures are unchanged despite pouring water on the reactors is very odd. Is the gauge broken? Did the water go on the floor or into the reactor?

These old and patchwork welded repaired containment vessels are brittle and if explosed to high heat and cold at the same time would break them like glass.

In NY the water came out of the tap below freezing and would break our glasses ar room temperature regularly. this old steel holding 3000 degrees and then exposed to 40 degree water would crack the metal.

At any rate while it is very worrisom I hope that all turns out no worse than what has already occured.


13 Mar 11 - 08:21 PM (#3113169)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL

But we can be thankful
And tranquil and proud
For man's been endowed with a mushroom shaped cloud.
And we know for certain that some lovely day
Someone will set the spark off...





And we will all be blown away.


13 Mar 11 - 08:28 PM (#3113171)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Charley, to get an idea of the age of this reactor this car was brand new when engineers were putting the final touches on the design.
1958-1959 top of the line model


You mentioned the poor quality of the reporting. It is truely awful. The young editors and the pretty talking heads confuse million for billion, feet for meters, hours for years. Gross mistakes that are never corrected.


13 Mar 11 - 08:33 PM (#3113174)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

How hot is the containment vessel?

Where is the water going?

Where does it end up?


PS Bill Nye the Science guy absolutely embarrased himself and our nation with hisignorant remarks regarding these nuclear reactor malfunctions.

I don;t want the industry spokesmen, I want the real physicists with real data.

The Gov of PA at the time of the 3 MIle Island breach said the one critical factor is acting only after precise and accurate information has been collected.


13 Mar 11 - 08:34 PM (#3113175)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

I don't know what the solar, wind and especially tidal industries are presently doing in Japan, and everywhere (although I do subscribe to an on-line site..mostly talks about Denmark it seems) but they sure as heck had better up their involvement..as should we all.

I don't know what they will do about all the debris..some of it contains bodies of course so I don't know what can or should be done in the case of autos say..compacting them..\check them all first of course if not too damaged...some probably has been washed out to sea already...mg


13 Mar 11 - 08:42 PM (#3113185)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Donuel-

You and I make mistakes but some of what the national news anchors are saying is truly outrageous.

I was just checking Wikipedia and they now have an excellent cutaway drawing of a typical BWR Mark I Containment, as used in units 1 to 5 at the Fukushima complex: click here for update!

One of the CNN "experts" was literally drooling at the prospect of selling the Japanese the next generation of nuclear power plant.

Charley Noble


13 Mar 11 - 11:14 PM (#3113267)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Remember the Fukashima N plant #3 that exploded and the top half of the building was entirely blown away?

Well now the lower half of the building is entirely gone and the metal girders are twisted and warped through out.


13 Mar 11 - 11:29 PM (#3113270)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jeri

It was a hydrogen explosion, so they said on TV and Reuters.


13 Mar 11 - 11:54 PM (#3113274)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

The links off of this site supplied by Charley Noble is indeed noble.

http://www.nirs.org/reactorwatch/accidents/Fukushimafactsheet.pdf
New updates are being made and are forthcoming.


like wheels within wheels you can find the specs and cross sections of the plant was was repaired and what was not.


14 Mar 11 - 12:28 AM (#3113290)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Two reactors now have lost their containment buildings but the reactors are hoped to be intact.

Paul Carroll, nuclear expert, was plain spoken.

"The explosions we have seen are hydrogen gas explosions abut the containment vessels are presumed to be intact. If the containment vessels themselves should breach then we are talking about an area 1,000's of square miles that will never be safe for human habitation. If even one reactor should not merely breach but allow for a critical mass explosion it will ignire not only its 100 tons of nuclear fuel of unranium and plutonium but all the other reactors within its blast radiuw which is unknown due to the unprecedented amount of fissile material."


There must be nearly 10 reactors that would be within ground zero of the blast and many more that would no longer able to be tended or manned remotely. NO one ever expected we essentailly built a million ton nuclear bomb.


So far seawater is said to be keeping it cool enough to not get worse.


14 Mar 11 - 06:56 AM (#3113346)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Reuters

"Shares in several Asian companies tumbled on Monday after the massive earthquake and tsunami in Japan that likely killed more than 10,000 people.

While manufacturers and automakers in Japan fell, construction stocks rose on expectations of increased demand. Coal and steel shares elsewhere also gained on anticipated demand in Japan."


Makes one proud to be human! Bloodsucking bastards.


14 Mar 11 - 07:12 AM (#3113356)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Paul Carroll

Organization: Ploughshares
Position: Policy analyst,Professional
Areas of Expertise: North Korea, Nuclear weapons development, Weapons of Mass Destruction, Security, National Security, Peace movement, Prevention of War
Personal Website: Ploughshares

Paul Carroll (CA): Program Director, Ploughshares Fund; Former Program Analyst, U.S. Department of Energy; Former Research Analyst, U.S. Congress Office of Technology Assessment; recently visited North Korea; North Korea may be choosing to restart nuclear program to get direct talks with U.S., international community can still engage with North Korea on disarmament


14 Mar 11 - 07:33 AM (#3113367)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Nuclear plant #2 now has all of its fuel rods exposed to air.

Paul Gunther says 9 Japanese Nuclear Plants are now in deep trouble.

NYT wrote that radiation clouds will last for months.



I saw a brief video of what truely appeared like a rescue by helicopter of a person at the Fukashima plant.


14 Mar 11 - 07:34 AM (#3113368)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

Reactor 2 at Fukushima Daiichi has now lost all its coolant, with the core fully exposed (which means meltdown is inevitable).

An aftershock tsunami is just about to hit the coast at Fukushima.


14 Mar 11 - 07:35 AM (#3113369)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

The 3 US warshipas including an aircraft carrier sent to Japan have now pulled back 25 miles because of the radioactive plumes floating out to sea.


14 Mar 11 - 07:43 AM (#3113376)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Incidentally, Paul Carroll's area of expertise as it pertains to Project Ploughshares is nuclear WEAPONS, not reactors.

To FOX news, an expert is anyone who can speak a complete sentence.


14 Mar 11 - 08:02 AM (#3113387)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

I can do complete sentences:

Criticallity is what is now continuing in Japan.

A criticality accident, sometimes referred to as an excursion or a power excursion, is an accidental increasing nuclear chain reaction in a fissile material, such as enriched uranium or plutonium. This releases a surge of neutron radiation which is highly dangerous to humans and causes induced radioactivity in the surroundings.

A critical or supercritical nuclear fission (one that is sustained in power or increasing in power) normally is supposed to occur only inside reactor cores and (very occasionally) inside some test facilities. A criticality accident occurs when a critical reaction is achieved unintentionally. Although dangerous, the low densities of fissile material and the long insertion time involved in these events limit the fission yield and peak power, preventing them from becoming a large scale nuclear explosion. The heat released by the nuclear reaction will typically cause the fissile material to expand, so that the nuclear reaction becomes subcritical again within a few seconds.

In the history of atomic power development, fewer than a dozen criticality accidents have occurred in collections of fissile materials outside nuclear reactors, but most of these have resulted in death, by radiation exposure, of the nearest person(s) to the event. However, none have resulted in explosions.


The idea of a nuclear explosion has been deemed impossible at a crippled nuclear plant. I my humble opinion this is simply not true.
The factors that the nuclear fule also contains plutonium is what makes the unthinkable runaway chain reaction a possiblility, no matter how small.



They are working furiously to find a solution to cool the core," said Mark Hibbs, a senior associate at the Nuclear Policy Program for the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

Nuclear agency officials said Japan was injecting seawater into the core -- an indication, Hibbs said, of "how serious the problem is and how the Japanese had to resort to unusual and improvised solutions to cool the reactor core."

Officials declined to say what the temperature was inside the troubled reactor, Unit 1. At 2,200 degrees Fahrenheit (1,200 degrees Celsius), the zirconium casings of the fuel rods can react with the cooling water and create hydrogen. At 4,000 F (2,200 C), the uranium fuel pellets inside the rods start to melt, the beginning of a meltdown

Japan is using a plutonium and uranium mix inside their reactors which make claims that a nuclear style explosion is impossible an unsubstatiated claim, in my opinion.


14 Mar 11 - 08:02 AM (#3113388)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

With regard to Unit 3 at the Fukushima complex from the Wikipedia update link:

"Explosion of Reactor Building

At 11:15 JST on 14 March 2011, a building surrounding Reactor 3 of Fukushima 1 exploded as well, presumably due to the ignition of built up hydrogen gas.[97][98] There is no health risk reported, though 600 people have been ordered to stay indoors. Within minutes, it was reported that as with Reactor 1, the outer reactor building was blown apart, but the inner containment vessel was not breached. Eleven people were reported injured in the blast."

The fuel rods in Unit 3 are even more dangerous than the more conventional fuel rods in the other reactors in the complex, being plutonium-based MOX (mixed oxide) fuel.

This is not a good development (sorry for such understatement but it's early in the morning), and does not bode well for Unit 2 at the same complex which also has experienced loss of coolant.

Meanwhile there are reports of similar loss of coolant problems in a neighboring nuclear power complex, and at a third complex.

The US fleet off-shore has monitored increasing radiation and is being shifted out of the "plume."

So now I'm reminded of one of our chants as we marched on the Midland nuclear power plant in Michigan in the late 1970's:

One rotten nuke, two rotten nukes, see how they melt!

Another academic exercise to do while waiting for more grim news from Japan might be to identify how many of the reactors, similar to those in trouble in Japan, in the States (listed above) are located in major earthquake zones. None are listed for California, Oregon or Washington. Perhaps, only the Cooper nuclear plant in Nebraska City, NE, 760 MW, 1974.

Of course there are other types of nuclear power plants in other West Coast states and if any of them had a loss of coolant due to an earthquake, and their back-up systems failed, we would risk nuclear meltdown as well. No one really knows what the consequences of that would be (not good!) but we may soon learn in Japan.

Charley Noble


14 Mar 11 - 08:12 AM (#3113395)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Charley reactor #2 now has a fully exposed core.

Make that

One little reactor is now melting
two little reactor is now exposed
three little reactor may go critical

makes three little 500,000 ton bombs


That is not to say they will go up like a bomb.
I imagine that the explosion would be more like the site glowing brighter and brighter in a slowly expanding plasma of fission that it would look more like a slow motion ball of light than the instant detonation of a nuke.


BUT PUTTING THE IDEA OF A REAL HUGE ATOMIC EXPLOSION ON ICE FOR NOW...
the idea of 5000 degree molten uranium and plutonium burning into the earth and sexloding grand clouds of steam as sea water and the metal merge...is in a real sense even more horrendous.

It would last as a radioactive geyser for years.


14 Mar 11 - 08:16 AM (#3113397)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Paul Gunther says a total of 9 Nuke plants are out of control.

Water pipes have broken in Japan virtually everwhere.


14 Mar 11 - 08:22 AM (#3113398)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

No offense, but the spelling is Gunter.


14 Mar 11 - 08:25 AM (#3113401)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Well, look on the bright side...we may all soon be able to use our credit cards up to the hilt and never have to pay them back!

Sorry, but my black sense of humour always creeps in during disastrous moments and this is sure one of those..

WHY did mankind EVER go on to use something so evil as nuclear power? Let alone build these terrible places in earthquake zones..I mean????


14 Mar 11 - 08:30 AM (#3113405)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Official Report from FOX

Three power plants in Japan are at risk of overheating.


14 Mar 11 - 08:33 AM (#3113408)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Lizzie during the cold war following WW2 the US needed nuclear plants to produce the plutonium needed to make nuclear weapons.

A big push to build these plants in the name of using the steam to power turbines which make electricity was very profitable.


14 Mar 11 - 08:39 AM (#3113410)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

The term breeder reactor refers to plutonum being created.

The plants were built with miltary budget money and sweetheat deals that made States pay huge sums made holding companies and owners rich.

But in case you haven;t heard, nuclear power is safe


14 Mar 11 - 08:47 AM (#3113419)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

People do not generally care where their electricity comes from as long as it's there for the electric toothbrush, hair dryer, power tools, etc. Like hydro-electric dams, everythings fine until something fucks up. Well, in places where there have been 'nuclear accidents' something has fucked up.

As I stated earlier (on this thread or another), there are about 450 nuclear power plants generating electricity. About 60% of them are badly in need of upgrading or repair. I also posted that about five years back and had my head handed to me by people saying I was an alarmist, didn't know what I was saying, etc. People are afraid of facts about nuclear power. The rub is this:

Electricity is generated by wind power, solar power, hydro-electric dams, coal/oil-fired generators or nuclear power plants. Neither wind nor solar power meed the so-called needs for electricity we seem to have. Many countries just can't generate power because the dams are more expensive to build and generating electricity becomes more expensive than people will or can pay. That leaves coal and oil generators. Bur coal to generate electricity and Greenpeace is chewin' yer ass. Use oil and environmentalists are chewin' yer ass. Use nuclear and some other group is chewin' it.

The answer is to use LOTS less electricity, and to force our governments to begin exploring solar power more fully. Saving 10% on one's petrol bill is nice. But then we produce 10% more cars and wonder why we ain't gettin' anywhere. Thedy are the same dumb fucks who smack their thumbs with hammers and wonder why their thumbs hurt. Go figure.


14 Mar 11 - 08:48 AM (#3113422)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Ringer

The world is not going to end today. Why not?


14 Mar 11 - 08:48 AM (#3113423)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

What car did you drive in the late 1950's??

Thats how old the design for these N plants in Japan are.



Construction began in 1960 and the plants wer finished in 1970.

They have been modified since then but mainly in the wrong direction, such as mixing plutonum and uranium in the fuel pellets.



Would you, could you drive that 1959 car you had today?


14 Mar 11 - 08:51 AM (#3113424)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Don, I know people who do. They took care of the cars.


14 Mar 11 - 08:51 AM (#3113426)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Good articl;e Ringer.

The good doctor did not mention that these reactors were supposed to be retired after 30 years.

We have many reactors in the US that also were intended to be retired 30 years ago.


14 Mar 11 - 08:53 AM (#3113428)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Thanks for the link, Ringer.


14 Mar 11 - 09:06 AM (#3113437)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

It's a a bit of wry irony a site advocating nuclear energy saying the world is not going to end while Fukushima 2 is believed to be in meltwown and reactors 1 and 4 damaged by hydrogen explosions barely hanging on and the wind is changing heightening fears any released radiation will go straight towards Tokyo.

No, the world won't be ending, it will be quite a different place though.


14 Mar 11 - 09:35 AM (#3113452)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Peter-

Please proof what you are posting or review what you are reading before you post.

It's reactor units 1 and 3 which have had their roofs and upper walls blown off by hydrogen explosions so far. Units 4, 5, and 6 are in the same Fukushima complex but were shut down for regularly scheduled maintenance before the earthquake and the tsunami and hopefully will not be affected by what is currently happening in this complex. Unit 2 appears to be in serious trouble and I would expect that it too will experience a hydrogen explosion similar to what happened to 1 and 3. Is everyone keeping score now?

Now on the topic of fuel rods Unit 3 appears to be unique at the Fukushima complex, according to what's posted at Wikipedia:

From September 2010, unit 3 has been fueled by mixed-oxide (MOX) fuel rather than low enriched uranium (LEU) used in the other reactors.

The situation is serious enough without getting the basic facts incorrect. Of course, what's posted at Wkipedia may also be incorrect but please cite sources for such statements so that we can do some follow-up rather than argue about our deeply held opinions.

Donuel's scenario described above for what might happen in a nuclear meltdown at this complex may be all too true. No, it's unlikely to be a bomb like explosion but there will certainly be a major release of highly radioactive material to the environment.

My faith in the integrity of stainless steel containment vessels is challenged by the fact that these vessels are 40 years old and are weakened by embrittlement after being bombarded by radioactive isotopes for this period.

Well, it's time to go back and continue painting the living room in the vacant apartment across the hall. Why do I hear a Peter Berryman song echoing in my ears?

Charley Noble


14 Mar 11 - 09:41 AM (#3113455)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

Yes, sorry. That should have been 1 and 3.


14 Mar 11 - 09:44 AM (#3113457)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

I do not besmirch anyone for wanting to believe what ever gives them comfort.


The industry standard explanation of how safe reactors are is to be expected/

Please note the "Ringer lInk" speaks in the subjective future pluferfect tense...


"After the meltdown, there would have been a waiting period for the intermediate radioactive materials to decay inside the reactor, and all radioactive particles to settle on a surface inside the containment. The cooling system would have been restored eventually, and the molten core cooled to a manageable temperature. The containment would have been cleaned up on the inside. Then a messy job of removing the molten core from the containment would have begun, packing the (now solid again) fuel bit by bit into transportation containers to be shipped to processing plants."



That sounds all well and good but with not water or electricty many of the assumptions made do not apply.


14 Mar 11 - 10:07 AM (#3113479)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Donuel-

While I was reading that somewhat comforting quote about "meltdown clean-up" there was this cartoon Power Point presentation playing in my head, narrated by Woody Woodpecker.

I've got to get away from computers and cable for a while.

See you all later.

Charley Noble


14 Mar 11 - 10:59 AM (#3113513)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Mrrzy

They seem to be handling it very well so far - a little venting, a little explosion, a little more venting, another little explosion, nothing major yet, which, considering, is considerable, I think.


14 Mar 11 - 11:12 AM (#3113517)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

The Diane Rheems show was most informative. The workers have done every procedure to minimize radiaton at a cost of about 3 billion dollars so far. The plutonium fuel is a 5% mix and not meant for these Mark 1 reactors which means they will melt at a lower temperature and be more toxic if a core breech should occur. France uses a 30% plutonium mix in a more advanced reactor. 18 workers have been hurt by blast or exposure. It seems that the chimney is not working so gas built up inside the building.

One could compare it to a 40 year old submarine that is below its design depth. As long as the containment "hull" holds up, the ship will survive.


14 Mar 11 - 11:19 AM (#3113523)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Thw world NEEDS to be a different place.

The Hopi People are out there trying to get folks to realise that 2012 will bring their prophecy to fruition, of a massive World Change in how we live, think, act...

There have been many other disasters leading up to this one, but this one will, I think, finally begin to make people terrified of nuclear power...coupled with the financial situations around the world too, which is making people open their eyes to corruption, to absolute shitty behaviour..

Japan will change the world in many ways...be it is we, the people of this beautiful, BEAUTIFUL planet who have to change our ways, our thoughts, our outlooks with more speed and more strength than any tsunami could ever bring....because if we don't, we will also wreak more havoc than all the world's tsunamis put together.

Part 1 of The Indigenous Native American Prophecy

2012 The Indigenous Elders

EVERYTHING is going wrong, not just earthquakes, not just tsunamis, not just The Corporate Bastards..It is everything...even down to the humble bumble bee...who we cannot live without....

We have poisoned this planet, not just with the chemicals we have made and poured over the Land, but with the chemicals within our minds, that have become so out of balance, so destructive....

We do not need cars.

I live a very simple life compared to many, as I do not drive..so therefore I'm very local in where I live, how I live. A day out somewhere far away is a real treat. A trip on a train is exciting.
I've been on a plane, twice...never again, hated it. I don't need to visit every country in the world, I don't need the latest gizmos and gadgets...I'm quite happy even if computers, the internet disappear, to be honest, because much as it's done a great deal of good in connecting us all together, it has also made our lives so complicated..and I'm tired of answering many questions each time I make a phone call....I'm tired of the wa it's allowed evil people to come together, throwing all the good people into the age of suspicion, where all are viewed to be possibly guilty...

I'd love to go back to small communities, simple lives, where our work was mainly for ourselves, tilling the ground, growing our own food, taking care of our families, each other....and satisfaction came, at the end of the day, from a hot meal around a fire, not from a £10,000 computer or a £30,000 car.

We make things deliberately to wear out, so more profit can be made...and all it's ended up diong is wearing US all out with worry and anxiety......

This planet is our Home, the only one we have...and we are desecrating and destroying it. We forget this planet is not just OUR home though, that we share it with every other species under the sun...who have an equal right to be here, to exist on a wonderful planet...

I grieve...

I grieve for all that we are losing, all that we have lost...and all we have yet to lose....


14 Mar 11 - 12:08 PM (#3113551)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

Meltdown of fuel rods now 'likely happening' in three Fukushima reactors

From the current Guardian blog:


Japanese officials say the nuclear fuel rods appear to be melting inside all three of the most troubled nuclear reactors, according to Associated Press.

Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano said: "Although we cannot directly check it, it's highly likely happening."


14 Mar 11 - 12:17 PM (#3113552)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

I have just been looking at an aerial photo of the plant (by AFP):

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/51672000/jpg/_51672113_011525965-1.jpg

You might be able to work in what's left of reactor 1. The reactor 3 building is filled with smoking rubble from this morning's explosion. Any reassurances about the state of the inner containment are pure guesswork when nobody can get near it to see.


14 Mar 11 - 12:24 PM (#3113558)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: josepp

This thread long ago passed from one actually concerned about the distaster that struck Japan to whining and bitching liberal tree-hugger guilt trip bullshit. When liberals start that stuff it's far worse than listening to conservatives whining. At least their whining is funny.


14 Mar 11 - 12:28 PM (#3113564)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL

Meantime, the Indian PM has assured the citizenry that all their nuclear plants are safe. I will sleep well tonight.

Japan now has five malfunctioning plants. Food and water are in short supply where they are most critically needed. No tree hugging here. Maybe a whine or two for the people suffering most.
SINS


14 Mar 11 - 12:32 PM (#3113565)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

You're having a good day for a change. I'm happy for you, josepp.


14 Mar 11 - 01:13 PM (#3113584)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

"... the Indian PM has assured the citizenry that all their nuclear plants are safe."

I think they have CANDUs, maybe.


14 Mar 11 - 01:36 PM (#3113601)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

It ocurred to me that India has nuclear weapons. Not easy with a CANDU so I read up. My statements are way outta date! From Wiki...

In terms of safeguards against nuclear proliferation, CANDU reactors meet a similar level of international certification as other reactor designs. However, there is a common misconception that the plutonium for India's first nuclear detonation, conducted in 1974 Operation Smiling Buddha, was produced in a CANDU design. In fact, the plutonium was produced in the unsafeguarded CIRUS reactor whose design is based on the NRX, a Canadian research reactor. In addition to its two CANDU reactors, India has some unsafeguarded pressurised heavy water reactors (PHWRs) based on the CANDU design, and two safeguarded light-water reactors supplied by the United States. Plutonium has been extracted from the spent fuel from all of these sources in the PREFRE reprocessing facility.[18] While all of these reactors could in principle be used for plutonium production, India uses an Indian designed and built military reactor for plutonium production called Dhruva. It is believed that the Dhruva reactor design is derived from the CIRUS reactor, with the Dhruva being scaled-up for more efficient plutonium production. It is this reactor which is thought to have produced the plutonium for India's more recent (1998) Operation Shakti nuclear tests.[19]


14 Mar 11 - 01:43 PM (#3113605)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Bill D

"Japan now has five malfunctioning plants."


No.. 5 reactors at two 'plants'.


14 Mar 11 - 01:46 PM (#3113610)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Little Hawk

You have to find yourself on a planet that has no trees left. Then you might begin to relate to the idea of hugging one.


14 Mar 11 - 01:58 PM (#3113617)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

And, further... "India: 2 (+13 CANDU-derivatives in use, +3 CANDU-derivatives under construction)"

Essentially, only the two CANDUs can be considered "safe" (well, "safer" than other designs).

Thank goodness our new (last fall) premier shelved a feasibility study for a French light water plant in our province. Our CANDU refurbishment has be delayed many times and it's scheduled to be back on line in the fall of 2012.

As for Japan, I haven't been able to bring myself to check the latest news or watch any of it on TV today. Donuel talked of a helpless feeling. I think the world feels the same way.


14 Mar 11 - 02:04 PM (#3113619)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Saw a cartoon. About fifty dogs sitting in a line. The lone tree in the frame showed a dog peeing. Like, I can relate, LH.

Once upon a time in the Sahara Forest . . .


14 Mar 11 - 02:34 PM (#3113634)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

TEPCO released 5 press releases so far today. None give much information. (Google for Tepco- easier than giving links which are soon out of date)

Unit 3- "It is believed that the reactor containment vessel remains intact. However, the status ......"

Unit 2- Applying preventive measures to wall of reactor building to ventilate the hydrogen gas. Reactor core cooling failed, incident reported.

Most of what is posted above by various individuals and news services concerning conditions at the plants is speculation. .....
Could be better, could be worse......

Have a nice day!


14 Mar 11 - 03:04 PM (#3113657)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Just read a bunch of stuff. While it seems like a "who knows?", the fact that the USN has backed off 25 miles kinda gives me the willies.


14 Mar 11 - 03:07 PM (#3113661)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL

I stand corrected Bill.
Reuters seems to think the worst is over:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/14/us-japan-nuclear-radiation-risk-idUSTRE72D6UC20110314

Hope they are right.
SINS


14 Mar 11 - 03:25 PM (#3113676)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

I heard on the radio coming back from errands that the fire truck providing the pump for the salt water for Unit 2 at Fukushima had run out of gas...the fuel rods were exposed and pressure was building up again in the reactor chamber.

Ads a note to everyone, looking closely at the cutaway diagram at Wikipedia for this type of reactor, there is a reactor chamber within which the fission reaction happens and heats the water coming in to boiling. The steam escapes out a pipe at the top and is used for running the electrical turbines. The entire reactor chamber is encased in a reactor containment vessel which evidently has not been breached. The reactor building was an additional layer of containment but the hydrogen blast blew out the roof and upper walls.

The saltwater is still being pumped in around the reactor chamber in Unit 1 and 3. It's unclear what is happening to the saltwater afterwards, whether it's being drained back into the bay. There are not a lot of good options left for dealing with that problem.

Josepp-

I had hopes you would contribute more to this thread than your own polemics. Shape up or ship out! We're both too old for that kind of nonsense.

Charley Noble


14 Mar 11 - 05:54 PM (#3113756)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

IAEA update - International Atomic Energy Agency


14 Mar 11 - 06:15 PM (#3113766)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Here's the latest update prepared by the Nuclear Information Resource Center:

UPDATE 12:30 pm, Monday, March 14, 2011. According to our colleagues in Japan, Tokyo
Electric Power states that Fukushima Daiichi-2 "has again lost its coolant (sea water was
pumped in but is dropping). They cannot ease the reactor pressure because the relief valve is stuck closed. Air dose rate on site (outside the reactor building) was 3,130 at around 9:30pm."
We believe the 3,130 figure means 3130 MicroSievert/hour, which would be highest reading yet recorded—about 310 millirems/hour. For comparison, the U.S. EPA allowable dose to a member of the public from a single reactor is 25 millirems/year, the U.S. NRC's allowable dose is 100 millirems/year from all nuclear sources.

From the regular media reports it appears that the Japanese have been able to resume pumping saltwater into Unit 2 at Fukashima, the plant where fuels rods were being exposed. That is better news in a dire situation.

I've watched Wolf Blitzer get outmaneuvered by an expert from a nuclear industry lobby just now. He claims that US nuclear plants in earthquake zones are built to standards appropriate to the conditions where they are located. Well, that was also true of Fukushima and the other troubled nuclear complexes in Japan, and the standards have proved inadequate. His back-up position was that we need to learn lessons from this event and move on with a new generation of improved nuclear plants. Well, there's something to be said for that, if the nuclear industry is willing to shut down all their existing plants for recertification. But Blitzer winged it to another aspect of the disaster.

Other "experts" are advocating fusion plants, a theoretically interesting concept but unproven as operational systems.

At this point I'd entertain the concept of switching to whale oil as an alternative (hey, whales, I'm only joking!), before plunking for fusion.

Charley Noble


14 Mar 11 - 07:06 PM (#3113788)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Charley... what about the CANDU? It's the safest design there is from what I have read (I am NOT well read on this subject). It's more costly and you can't build a lotta nuclear bombs with them, but...?

Sorry for the thread drift.

Back to the thread... if the valve is u/s and the fuel is dry... are we talking a nasty SPEW?


14 Mar 11 - 07:14 PM (#3113792)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

So the fate of Japan and possibly the world depends on one firetruck that ran out of gas? Why wasn't there more gas standing by? I know gas is short but this should be top priority. THere seem to be lots of fishing boats floating about..capture gas from them.

Whoever engineered this thing that could be stopped by a firetruck running out of gas should be stripped of her professional certification. mg


14 Mar 11 - 07:26 PM (#3113798)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

if the valve is u/s and the fuel is dry... are we talking a nasty SPEW?

Luckily this kind of thing doesn't happen often enough to estimate the likelihood.

Maybe, maybe not. It's worse than Three Mile Island now, but not as bad as Chernobyl or Kyshtym. That's about all anybody can say on the facts we've got.


14 Mar 11 - 07:29 PM (#3113799)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL

mg, I am speechless.


14 Mar 11 - 07:36 PM (#3113806)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

Al-Jazeera reports a new explosion, at Fukushima Reactor 2 this time.


14 Mar 11 - 07:38 PM (#3113808)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Japanese TV has reported a containment vessel breech and a sharp increase in radiation


14 Mar 11 - 07:40 PM (#3113810)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

A new evacuation distance has been ordered.


14 Mar 11 - 07:47 PM (#3113812)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Perhaps only a vlave has burst. They suspect that air from the containment vessel is coming out. They can not be sure about the bottom of the containment vessel but they mentioned that the vessel has lost its water.

100 tons of 95% uranium and 5% Plutonium shoudld not be allowed to collect into one giant ball.

Despite the danger boron and water should still be poured on this mess despite the risk of steam explosions and drastic radiation release. ITs better than the small chance of criticality growing into a runaway chain reaction. Yes I know they say this is impossible but at temps over 5000F we have no experiments to refer to.


14 Mar 11 - 07:49 PM (#3113813)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

for lack of a nail a war was lost.



At one point the portable generator brought on site could not be used because the plugs did not match.


14 Mar 11 - 08:00 PM (#3113823)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

ABC coverage of second explosion

This third explosion happened within the hour.


14 Mar 11 - 08:13 PM (#3113833)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

According to the BBC weather page, the wind is currently blowing straight from Fukushima towards Tokyo and will stay that way for a day or so. Rain tomorrow night. If the thing blows soon this is about the worst weather situation imaginable.


14 Mar 11 - 08:16 PM (#3113835)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Unit 2 has blown its roof and walls off. No one is certain what else has happened.

Take a deep breath.

Charley Noble


14 Mar 11 - 08:42 PM (#3113842)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

NHKworld English here:
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/index.html

NHK is the official Japanese broadcaster. The latest story, dated March 15, 0:11 UTC, reports that TEPCO failed to raise water level in reactor Number 2, and fuel rods remain exposed.

Updated 07:48 UTC- Seawater was let into the reactor starting 1:00AM, but "as of 3:00AM, the water level remains low and the fuel rods remain exposed."
A TEPCO official (at 04:27 AM) said fuel rods may have overheated and begun melting.


14 Mar 11 - 09:13 PM (#3113850)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Charley are you saying that sll three reactors are now without the outer buildings?

first 3 went then 1 then 2 was heard to have an explosion and NHK TV showed a picture soley of the containment vessel and explained that pressure dropped and radiation increased,


14 Mar 11 - 09:26 PM (#3113852)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

The spokesman for the Union of Concerned Scientists, David Laughbaum, is worried now of MNBC that the primary containment of Unit 2 has ruptured, given that the pressure has dropped dramatically inside since the explosion. If that is true, we're now in a whole different class of nuclear incidence.

Charley Noble


14 Mar 11 - 10:16 PM (#3113872)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jeri

He also mentioned that one doesn't have to take iodine tablets, as the radioactive iodine only gets into people who eat stuff that comes out of cows after cows eat contaminated grass. Cows in Japan, not the US.


14 Mar 11 - 10:16 PM (#3113873)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

New update from NIRS:

"UPDATE 7:30 pm, Monday, March 14, 2011. Tokyo Electric Power is holding a press
conference at this hour. Video stream is at http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-gtv2. NHK
TV reports that there has been an explosion at Unit 2 at Fukushima Daiichi. There is
speculation that this explosion has damaged the primary containment (inside the concrete
containment building, which is the secondary containment. Tepco is evacuating some non-
essential personnel from the reactor site. 2.5 meters of the core are currently uncovered by
water—which means it is almost certainly melting. Winds from the site are currently blowing
toward the North. "

The accident is now being characterized by MNBC nuclear spokespeople as worse than Three Mile Island, which was a partial meltdown of the core without a major release of radiation to the environment. Japanese plant workers are still onsite attempting to cool all three reactors with sea water. Non-essential utility staff have been evacuated.

Charley Noble


14 Mar 11 - 10:18 PM (#3113875)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jeri

Fire in the 4th reactor. Japanese PM is telling people to stay at least 19 miles away.


14 Mar 11 - 10:19 PM (#3113876)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

From rt.com (Russia Today): "4th reactor at damaged nuclear plant on fire, more radiation released - Japan official"


14 Mar 11 - 10:24 PM (#3113880)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

We lived through Chernobyl, and we'll live through this.

A breach of the containment wall would be dangerous for people within a radius that does NOT include North America.

I could be wrong.


14 Mar 11 - 10:40 PM (#3113887)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

The fire reported by Japanese Prime Minister is in the spent fuel pool of Unit 4 at the Fukushima complex. I've mentioned that as a possible major problem up above. This is very bad.

Charley Noble


14 Mar 11 - 11:07 PM (#3113895)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

I just watched the explosion of the containment vessel fo #2 .
It was a TREMENDOUS BLAST sending steel concret and qoo tons of Plutonium and uranium 1000 feet into the air.

This was unlike all of the hydrogen gas pops.


Reactor 4 is on fire becasue the new rods to be instaled in dhutdown reactor 4 and the spenmt fuel rods are exposed to air and hundreds of tons of nuclear fuel is now on fire.

Every worst case meltdown scenario is now taking place

Short of a a fssion explosion this is a fission explosion in slow motion involving unimagined amounts of nuclear fuel.

There remains more reactors that are in the same shape that these 4 reactors were in 2 days ago.

There are virtually no more workers to do anything on site such as pour seawater and boron.

From here on out any workers who try to dump boron on the scene will do so at the cost of their lives within 30 days.

Nuclear industry spokespeople who have spun the wonderful safty backup plans and total impossibility of anything like Chernobyl should now shut the fuck up. That includes Glen Beck who said no one was ever hurt by the the private nuclear industry be it 3 mile Island or even Japan.


14 Mar 11 - 11:11 PM (#3113898)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

The PM of Japan has admitted that vast mounts of radiation capable of immediately harming human health is now being released.


Anderson Cooper continues to drone on about overturned cars in the town of Sendai..


14 Mar 11 - 11:20 PM (#3113902)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

The Japanese are both proud and tough. Our rational action is to send    emergency workers now, and allow the Japanese to refuse entry.

Sorry folks, but Canada has offered people (volunteers, all of 'em) who are no-shit nuclear we got a problem types. The Japanese have so far not called.

Zaibatsu, call home!


14 Mar 11 - 11:33 PM (#3113908)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Sandy Mc Lean

I should stay out of this discussion but there are a few things that I will say. The disaster in Japan has torn at everyones heart in the last few days and I am no exception. The force of the tidal wave (yes,I know it has a different name now)was beyond belief! God only knows what the final count of those lost will be but it is going to be in the tens of thousands from direct effect of the quake alone. As for the power plants in question if there is an emission from radioactive debris like cesium many more lives could be lost spanning decades to come.
I am no scientist but I do not believe that it is possible to create any atomic blast from fuel grade enriched uranium melted down or otherwise. I say this because this grade of refinement of uranium is not pure enough to create an uncontrolled chain reaction like a bomb. In order for a reactor to attain fission many fine tolerances must be met and in order to create fission of uranium of less than about 85% U-235 neutron bullets must be slowed down in order to gain a collision with its neighbour atom. These requirements do not happen by chance but require intentional input.
That being said any chemical based explosion releasing debris into the air is no trivial concern! I do however believe that to run around like Chicken Little proclaiming an impossible situation is irresponsible.
I am at a bit of a loss to comprehend why Japan would ever allow a light water enriched grade reactor on its soil. The plutonium by-product has attraction for nations wanting that element for weapons but Japan has no nuclear weapon use or manufacturing ability.
The CANDU system mentioned earlier has less volatility because it uses natural uranium which requires no enriching centrifuge and can be quickly shut down by inserting dampening rods into the reactor core as well as by replacing the deuterium bath with light water. I believe that the system is fail-safed to do this automatically in an emergency. It is also my understanding that a large pool of light water sits above the reactor core ready to spill in in an emergency situation as well requiring no powered pumps.
Many things in nuclear physics are beyond my feeble comprehension but I do understand panic!
               Sandy


15 Mar 11 - 12:16 AM (#3113916)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

U235 or U236 is not as potent as U238 but if you add PU and add certain temps and pressures from say 100 tons, it can cause an atomic like blast. Not well known but even 3 MIle Island faced near detonation levels. My only contention is that it is not true that there is 0% chance of atomic proportion explosions. Maybe it is best to leave that one untested possiblilty to "never say never".

I fully expected that Chicken Little would enter into the conversation. When I speak with unabashed honesty the charge of irresponsible is in my book over the top. But everyone has a different idea what the top is I suppose.

I admit I do not like nuclear plants. I never did even when I did not have a personal reason.


The personal reason I have had a vitriolic attitude toward nuclear power plants and radiation hazards, is the fact my only sister was killed by radioactive poisoning. During the cold war she was a test subject in the Army WAC for radioactive Iodine experiments. The 26 year horror of the slow necrotic death is too savage to tell in detail.

From the video I just saw of reactor #2, I believe my eyes over the polite but tense words of the TEPCO comapany spokesman who said the workers are evacuated, further release of radiation is expected and the levels are now immediately hazardous to human health. Stay indoors. If possible extend the evacuation area to 26 miles.


One last word about irrespondisibility.

In the face of these latest nuclear events, don't you dare direct irrespondsibility charges at me.

All of us will eventually come to know the people and companies who are truely irrespondsible, even if only for the most simple and ignoranat mistake.

Go ahead and believe Sen Alexander or Bret Baier or even Glen Beck if you think it is the right point of view or the right thing to do.

I have been as forth coming and as honest as I know how to be.
In critical matters I continue to believe it is paramount to be critically honest and still try to find the time to laugh when we can.


15 Mar 11 - 12:22 AM (#3113918)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Why?
IT may be against treaty regulation but we are still building nuclear weapons. Breeder reactors are and always have been the PU factory that keeps on giving. We refine it at several locations. WAshington COlorado and TeNnesee. War is is racket and you can't have one without weapons.

We have a grand surplus especially from Russian missles we dismantle.
We do have a tritium shirrtage.


15 Mar 11 - 12:27 AM (#3113919)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Sandy's post is just what we needed about now, imo.


15 Mar 11 - 03:39 AM (#3113959)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Naemanson

You should know that the news you are getting out of Japan is a little late. If you want up-to-the-minute news you should check out NHK World. That is the Japanese equivalent to PBS in the USA and it is in English. They have other languages for those more comfortable in their first tongue.

NHK World

My wife's family are all safe from the earthquake and the tsunamis(for those who didn't see one of my posts on other threads). Now the radiation may be blowing down over them. I'm going to suggest to Wakana that we invite them to stay with us in Guam for a while.


15 Mar 11 - 04:49 AM (#3113976)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Thanks for the link. Just watched NHK. At 20 to 30km, stay indoors, use masks or wet towels if you have to go outdoors, don't eat things exposed to the air... frightening stuff.


15 Mar 11 - 07:38 AM (#3114050)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

The NHK stuff requires some sort of plugin for you to watch it, so I haven't.

Of the sources I've looked at on the web, Russia Today seems to be providing the best combination of timeliness and quality in its coverage at the moment. BBC Live repeats way too much.


15 Mar 11 - 07:45 AM (#3114056)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

I get it using IE.


15 Mar 11 - 08:05 AM (#3114068)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: bobad

This was posted by John Weldon on Facebook, I thought it worthy of being re-posted here:

"The saddest aspect of the Japanese tragedy is that the safest form of energy, nuclear power, will once again get a bad rap. When it goes wrong, it's dramatic and news-worthy. Thousands die. Whereas the millions who die by (and for) fossil fuel are just boring statistics."


15 Mar 11 - 08:12 AM (#3114070)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL

And a word of praise for the incredibly brave people who have stayed on site to put out the fires and try to stop the meltdown. I could not have done that.


15 Mar 11 - 08:13 AM (#3114073)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

The general tone of Sandy's post is reassuring with regard to the possibility of a nuclear explosion at the Fukushima complex. That is the conventional wisdom. And we all hope it is correct.

However, Sandy's dead wrong with regard to nuclear fission, which is exactly what nuclear plants are designed to do in a controlled fashion to heat water, produce steam, and run turbines to generate electricity.

I'm not finding any clear information this morning on the details of what happened in the explosion reported last night at Unit 2, just conflicting reports. Evidently the fire was put out at the spent fuel in Unit 4 but unless the water flow is maintained in all six spent fuel pools at the Fukushima complex there will be additional fires and high level nuclear waste escaping into the surrounding downwind environment.

Nothing new at NIRS this morning and very little at Wikipedia Fukushima.

Charley Noble


15 Mar 11 - 08:16 AM (#3114075)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

The latest is that radiation levels are now too high for staff to remain in the control rooms.


15 Mar 11 - 08:29 AM (#3114081)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Please cite sources for follow-up.

Charley Noble


15 Mar 11 - 08:40 AM (#3114084)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

The updates of what is happening at the neighboring Fukushima 2 complex in Naraha indicate that the situation there has been brought under control (from Wikipedia Fukushima II):

"After the March 11, 2011 Sendai earthquake and tsunami, Nuclear Engineering International reported that all four units were automatically shut down.[1] Tokyo Electric on March 12 reported that the cooling system for three reactors (numbers 1, 2 and 4) at the plant had topped 100 °C between 05:30 and 06:10 JST. This happened after the emergency core cooling systems had failed and less than one hour after the start of additional cooling with condensate water.[8][9][10] The emergency core coolant systems were repaired and acitivated in Units 1, 2 and 4 in the days following the emergency shutdown.[8] Coolant temperatures below 100°C (cold shutdown) were reached in reactor 2, about 34 hours after the emergency shut down (SCRAM).[8] Reactors 1 and 3 followed at 1:24 and 3:52 on 14 March and Reactor 4 at 7:00 on 15 March.[11]

Officials made preparations for release of pressure from the plant on March 12.[12][13] As of 14 March, however, no pressure release had taken place."

That is the good news this morning.

Charley Noble


15 Mar 11 - 08:43 AM (#3114087)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Here's the 8 am update from NIRS this morning:

"UPDATE 8:15 am, Tuesday, March 15, 2011. The situation at Fukushima is going from bad to worse. There was briefly a fire in the irradiated fuel pool at Unit 4. The fire is said to be extinguished for now.

Most disturbingly, Tokyo Electric Power (Tepco) has evacuated all but 50 people from the reactor site. This skeleton crew (of heroic workers) is not likely to be enough to handle simultaneous crises at four reactors and four fuel pools. This may well be a sign that Tepco has given up hope that it can successfully contain this crisis and prevent full meltdowns.

Radiation levels at the site increased overnight (US time) but have dropped a little more recently. Reading in one location was about 4 Rems/Hour. At the site gate readings have dropped from slightly above 1 Rem/hour at 9:30 am (Tokyo time) to about 50 millirems/hour at 3:30 pm (Tokyo time).

Detectable (although still quite low) radiation levels have been recorded in Tokyo, nearly 200 miles to the south.

A 30 kilometer (18.6 miles) exclusion zone has been set up around the site. No one is being allowed inside this zone. However, only residents within 20 kilometers of the site so far have been evacuated; residents from 20-30 kilometers are being told to take shelter indoors.

There is no indication whatsoever that grid power will be available anytime soon. Without power to run safety systems and the clear inability to provide adequate backup power, there is unfortunately little likelihood this crisis can be contained."

Charley Noble


15 Mar 11 - 08:48 AM (#3114090)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Fukashima actual radiation readings are censored all this week and are subject to government scrutiny only.
however

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/gamma-radiation-fukushima-downwind-ibaraki-disclosed-30-times-above-normal


US reports Tokyp either at slightly above normal to 10 times normal.

I am used to curies as a scale but Japan uses another. by their scale they say the N plant is at 420/hr and that 25/day is normal.

There are now 5 workers per Fukashima reactor who have vowed to stay despite the certainty of radiation sickness. IT is part of the Bushido code to bravely sacrifice oneself to the end no matter what the odds. There are 1- reactors in total at the Fukashima sites which makes a total of 50 workers who will work to the end.

between 700 and 800 other Fukawhima workers have been evacuated.


15 Mar 11 - 09:09 AM (#3114099)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

I assume everyone has seen the hydrogen explosions that took the roof off the reactor buildings along with upper walls. Those hydrogen explosions and a bit higher than the light towers at the plant. Those were hydrogen pops compared to the explosion that has now cleared the plant.

I assume you did not see the new and fateful explosion that changed everything. This explosion was of the only thing left to explode at reactor 2. It is the containment vessel. IT reaches nearly 8,000 feet in seconds and continues to go higher. After this explosion over 700 workers were evacuated.

It is far more impressive in HD where you can see individual components of the vessel wreakage. But here is a quick low quality view.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_N-wNFSGyQ


15 Mar 11 - 09:14 AM (#3114101)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

Curies and sieverts measure different things. Curies measure how active a source is, sieverts measure how much damage a human has received.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionizing_radiation_units

Wind is dying down at Fukushima, heavy rain forecast, which will help keep radiation releases localized. Tomorrow the wind will get up and blow out to sea. Bye-bye to the fishing industry in the northern Pacific.

John Weldon appears to be technology's answer to Walkaboutsverse. I guess he has a financial stake in talking bollocks.

Those 50 workers staying behind are up there with the 47 Ronin. Let's hope their families get properly looked after.


15 Mar 11 - 09:21 AM (#3114104)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Here's a more comprehensive summary of the worsening situation at the Fukushima complex from the Union of Concerned Scientists: click here for update!

There's the assumption here that both the primary and secondary containment structures have been compromised at the Unit 2 reactor.

Charley Noble


15 Mar 11 - 09:57 AM (#3114132)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

Update of status of reactors at Fukushima, from Kyodo News agency


15 Mar 11 - 09:59 AM (#3114135)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6

Nuclear fears prompt rush for pills in B.C.


the following is a comment posted by a reader from that CBC news article .......

"Well, once again, we have to ask ourselves - can we believe what the governments and health agencies are telling us? Historically speaking, their reputation for being totally forthcoming is sadly very poor. On top of that, Japanese officials have kept assuring us all that nothing was going to happen, and yet, explosions keep happening and radiation keeps being released. And they have now increased the distance for people to "seal" themselves into their homes from 20 km to 30 km. That entire area should be evacuated, as sealing yourself in (with what I might add) will do nothing, unless they have some sort of bubble they can seal themselves into, with food and water, etc., and we know that is not happening. These people, this country, needs help. They also need to be told that building nuclear power plants in areas that are a high risk for earthquakes puts us all at risk. How much of this will end up in our oceans and our air and our soil? All more reasons for sourcing power from truly clean sources, like wind, tidal, and solar. In fact, clean nuclear power is an oxymoron. If there was never an accident, the waste it produces will destroy life for long after we are gone, and it keeps building up from these plants."

biLL


15 Mar 11 - 10:03 AM (#3114139)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

segment of status report
stricken reactors at Fukushima nuclear power plants
TOKYO, March 15, Kyodo

The following is the known status as of Tuesday evening for each of the six reactors at the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant and the four reactors at the Fukushima No. 2 plant, both in Fukushima Prefecture, crippled by Friday's magnitude 9.0 earthquake and ensuing tsunami.

Fukushima No. 1

-- Reactor No. 1 - Cooling failure, partial melting of core, vapor vented, hydrogen explosion, seawater pumped in.

-- Reactor No. 2 - Cooling failure, seawater pumped in, fuel rods fully exposed temporarily, damage to containment system, potential meltdown feared.

-- Reactor No. 3 - Cooling failure, partial melting of core feared, vapor vented, seawater pumped in, hydrogen explosion, high-level radiation measured nearby.

-- Reactor No. 4 - Under maintenance when quake struck, fire caused possibly by hydrogen explosion at pool holding spent fuel rods, pool water levels feared receding.

-- Reactor No. 5 - Under maintenance when quake struck.

-- Reactor No. 6 - Under maintenance when quake struck.

Fukushima No. 2

-- Reactor No. 1 - Cooling failure, then cold shutdown.

-- Reactor No. 2 - Cooling failure, then cold shutdown.

-- Reactor No. 3 - Cold shutdown.

-- Reactor No. 4 - Cooling failure, then cold shutdown.

==Kyodo


15 Mar 11 - 10:14 AM (#3114148)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Sandy Mc Lean

I tried to post this earlier but it was lost in cyberspace.
Donuel, I am truly sorry about your sister. I do however question the source and accuracy of your postings.
The situation in Japan is truly awful and what may be to come perhaps worse. I claim no expertise in nuclear physics but rely on simpler dumbed down theory that I can comprehend.
The most prevalent fissile isotope of uranium is U-235 which is found in natural uranium at a concentration of between .7 and .8 of 1%. The much larger body of natural uranium is U-238 which is not fissile and is actually an impediment to a chain reaction. Fuel for light water reactors is enriched to a concentration of about 5% U-235.
U-235 of weapons grade must usually be above 85%. I believe that nuclear explosions, including the Hiroshima bomb, were created at about 80% U-235 by using a pressure cone containing neutron reflectors. At the concentration level of power plant fuel an atomic blast is not possible. However fission is attained by reaching a critical mass in a reactor core but the difficulty is as much in keeping the reaction going as regulating it. The byproducts of fission , not the explosive potential is where the danger of human disaster lies! Explosions of a chemical nature can be massive distributing radioactive poison far and wide and that is the real concern.   
Donuel you state "Go ahead and believe Sen Alexander or Bret Baier or even Glen Beck if you think it is the right point of view or the right thing to do."
I must admit in my ignorance that I have never heard of any of them. Who are they?
                                                                            Sandy


15 Mar 11 - 10:40 AM (#3114171)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

A powerful earthquake with a preliminary magnitude of 6.0 jolted central Japan on Tuesday night.

The Japan Meteorological Agency says the quake with an intensity of 6 plus on the Japanese seismic scale zero to 7 hit at 10:31 PM.

The focus of the quake is in the eastern part of Shizuoka Prefecture and is estimated to be at a depth of 10 kilometers.


15 Mar 11 - 11:51 AM (#3114212)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

The summary that Donuel has posted above presents in my opinion an accurate picture of what appears to be happening at the Japan end, and correlates with what the Union of Concerned Scientists say in their morning summary.

Sandy-

You continue to muddy the waters with your basic misunderstanding about the fission process in a normal operating nuclear reactor. Please review some of the links above.

I also don't believe there will be nuclear explosion (equivalent to a nuclear bomb explosion) from a set of runaway reactors and spent fuel pools such as we are observing at the Fukushima 1 complex (with its 6 reactors). But there may be some kind of additional explosion or explosions as the reactors continue to melt down and the spent fuel pools continue to lose coolant which could fill the air with highly radioactive Cesium, Uranium, Plutonium and other isotopes. Do you disagree or do you just fail to comprehend what the potential danger is? I wish I knew a whole lot less about what might happen.

Now experts do disagree of exactly what might happen after a meltdown. The partial meltdown at Three Mile Island (and most people are unaware that there was such a meltdown since the report wasn't issued until a year later) was successfully contained within the containment dome. However, most experts now agree that the primary and secondary containment structures at Unit 2 at Fukushima are ruptured and that we are now in new territory with regard to what will happen next.

Charley Noble


15 Mar 11 - 11:52 AM (#3114214)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

radiation goes down all is stable and shut down



You see the rhetoric and the reality do not match.
That is because there are two simultaneouss stuggles.
One struggle is to contend with real catastrophic developments
and the other is to fight for the attention of public opinion.

Shaping public opinion is usually done to educate the masses to accept an ideology of big business and political figureheads to take money from the masses and apply it as business sees fit.

The sickening corruption of public opinion regarding this emerging radioactive disaster does not serve to placate and calm people but only serves to create total mistrust and as a result increases panic.

I should not have to explain this to intelligent people.


Academic discussions of how big a ball of PU does it take to create a spontaneous atomic blast is not the point. The point is that the Fukushima disaster is a world sickening event at proportions never even imagined before. The amount of nuclear fuel that has been released and the amount that is left unattended that may be released is near 6 figure metric tons of the most radioactive elements on Earth.

When facts are so grim that they are unbelievable, there are people of greed who will exploit the public for their own selfish profits at the cost of lives, property and the future.


To dismiss these events as a non event in the scheme of things , as some people are reporting on FOX news is worse than criminal, it is being an accomplice to murder...which is my opinion not to be confused with facts.


15 Mar 11 - 12:18 PM (#3114236)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Shifting focus to the "spent fuel pools" at the Fukushima Complex and her is a link to a new graphic at Wikipedia which shows where they are located in this design: click here for update!

Each reactor has its own spent fuel pool and its located rather high up in the building which surrounds the reactor and its primary containment. Given there location they would appear to be highly vulnerable to the kind of explosions that have already taken place at Units 1, 2, and 3. After 40 years of operation they would be packed with still highly radioactive "spent fuel" rods, and if their coolant is lost through a breach or evaporation, they could indeed catch fire.

Evidently the spent fuel in Unit 4 did catch fire earlier today but the company claims that the fire was successfully put out. I'm puzzled why there was such a problem in this unit when it was already in cold-shutdown status, unless no one noticed that the spent fuel pool was no longer being supplied with coolant until it was too late.

There have been a number of human errors that have contributed to the unfolding catastrophe at Fukushima Complex 1. It's understandable that the workers might make errors in such an unprecedented emergency, but such errors have consequences. Evidently the workers at the neighboring Fukushima Complex 2 have been more successful in stabilizing their four reactors.

When this accident is reviewed I predict that its primary causes will be attributed to:

Failure to design the complex to the standards needed to survive a level 9 earthquake and tsunami

Human error in trying to stabilize the reactors after the cooling pumps failed.

Unlike other technologies for producing energy, nuclear energy is intolerant of major design failures and human errors, and the consequences can be catastrophic.

Charley Noble


15 Mar 11 - 12:27 PM (#3114243)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: josepp

"50 millirems/"

"Reading in one location was about 4 Rems/Hour. At the site gate readings have dropped from slightly above 1 Rem/hour at 9:30 am (Tokyo time) to about 50 millirems/hour at 3:30 pm (Tokyo time)."

The plural of rem is rem not rems. Millirem not millirems. Rem is a measurement of biological destruction not a measure of radiation. That would be rads. How much of this stuff can you believe? Sitting there keeping track of every little new tidbit about this disaster seems to me to be highly unproductive and morbidly paranoid. It happened, folks, get over it. Sitting there biting your nails doesn't improve the situation. Get on with your lives. Or at least find lives to get on with.


15 Mar 11 - 12:30 PM (#3114247)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Little Hawk

WHAT???? You're suggesting calm? Acceptance of reality??? Dealing with what we can deal with and not obsessing about things that are way beyond our control?

What are you, some sort of dangerous, antisocial radical?

;-)


15 Mar 11 - 12:44 PM (#3114265)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

josepp-

"It happened, folks, get over it. Sitting there biting your nails doesn't improve the situation. Get on with your lives. Or at least find lives to get on with."

Hope you're having a very nice day.

Charley Noble


15 Mar 11 - 12:45 PM (#3114267)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL

Still stunned at the dedication and bravery of 50 people who have agreed to remain and try to contain events at four (is it four now?) reactors. They are all heroes.


15 Mar 11 - 12:52 PM (#3114273)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6

I with you on that Sinsull .... they certainly are the unsung heros of this tragedy.

biLL


15 Mar 11 - 01:04 PM (#3114279)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Little Hawk

The Japanese are famous for that sort of altruistic self-sacrifice. It is very heroic indeed. The Russian firemen were similarly heroic at Chernobyl.

Had a look at that last explosion, Donuel. It looks a hell of a lot bigger than a hydrogen explosion, such as was seen earlier at those reactors. I am glad I don't live near any nuclear power plants. I think the nearest one is east of Toronto, along the shore of Lake Ontario, and that's considerably southeast of where I live...about 2 hours from here on the highway.


15 Mar 11 - 01:12 PM (#3114284)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Stringsinger

Hello G.E. (I knew it was you!)

Nukes make not only energy but weapons and don't think the Nuke Industry
is developing it's potent ecological disastrous energy policy just to run light bulbs.


15 Mar 11 - 01:20 PM (#3114287)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

While we're waiting for further updates, here's a relevant review of Californian nuclear power plants, their design specs and their assumptions about earthquakes and tsunamies: click here for report!

What I find particularly disturbing is the San Onofre Nuclear Power Plant. It's located right on the coastal plain and is designed to survive a 7.0 earthquake and a 25-foot tall tsunami. Those are similar design specs to those that failed at Fukushima.

Someone will be sure to post next that I am comparing "apples with oranges" and I wish I were. Neither apples or oranges are likely to adversely affect the environment.

Charley Noble


15 Mar 11 - 01:23 PM (#3114289)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Sandy Mc Lean

Charley the intent of my postings was not to argue. My point was that it will not create a nuclear explosion but chemical explosions spreading radioactive poison can be totally disastrous. What I see in your posts seems to say much the same thing. I said that U-238 is not fissile and enriched uranium of about 5% U-235 is required in a light water reactor. I also said that enrichment to about 85% U-235 is needed for an atomic blast. If this is incorrect then I stand corrected. I know that some isotopes of plutonium are fissile and can be created from U-238 under some conditions but they would have to be concentrated
before being atomically explosive. In no way am I saying by intent or ignorance that the situation is not critical!


15 Mar 11 - 01:50 PM (#3114308)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6

L.H. ... I live rather close to Lapreau nuke station here on the Bay of Fundy.

Today at lunch the head of N.B. Power was on the CBC reassuring that the safety standards of this nuke power station (even though it is built on a fault line) are so that it can survive an earthquake of great magnitude and that we shouldn't worry. OK, ... there was no mention that the Bay of Fundy has the highest tides in the world .... so, in the event of an earthquake ... well, ... bottom line we put so much faith in our governments and coporations as such to ensure that our safety is foremost on their agendas. yeah right, everything is ok kids we're in good hands.

What is happening over in Japan is a tragedy that is beyond our comprehension .... the ensuing goat f**k with the nuclear reactors is evidence that our technology is also beyond our comprehnsion ... we can only hope that out of all of this there is something to be learned.

biLL
biLL


15 Mar 11 - 02:22 PM (#3114330)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Bill-

Those of us who live in Maine are always aware of the nuclear power plants at Point Lapreau in New Brunswick and Seabrook in New Hampshire. Major earthquakes appear unlikely but either one could be compromised by a terrorist raid from the ground, sea or air.

As these power plants age, there are also concerns about embrittlement of their containment barriers.

We're happy that the owners of Maine Yankee finally say the wisdom of shutting down their nuclear power plant ten years early. Of course we're still left with tons of high level spent fuel in dry cask storage on site for the next ten thousand years or so.

No worthwhile updates from CNN or NSNBC.

Charley Noble


15 Mar 11 - 02:37 PM (#3114340)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

"And a word of praise for the incredibly brave people who have stayed on site to put out the fires and try to stop the meltdown. I could not have done that."

Yes you could, Mary.

Bravery is far more common that we suspect. Even in ourselves.


15 Mar 11 - 02:41 PM (#3114343)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6

Hey Charlie ... The point I was trying to make (I didn't cmake myself clear) was that this head guy from NB Power was going on about in the event of the possibility of an earthquake and how we shouldn't be concerned ... after all that has happened we are aware it isn't the earthquake that has caused the issues over in Japan but the ensuing 'tidal wave'.

Of course the odds are there probabbly won't be an earthquke of such magnitude here in N.B. ... but .....

Anyway ... Maine had the sense to close down it's nuke stations.

biLL


15 Mar 11 - 02:55 PM (#3114354)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

NHKnews-
Chief Cabinet Secretary Edano states temperatures are rising at reators 5 and 6 due to malfunctioning of cooling systems caused by the quake.
He said workers were trying to prevent possible hydrogen gas explosions similar to that in the number four reactor.

All reactors now seem to be involved. Extent of damage at number 2 not known. The rods were completely exposed for 8 hours.

Injection of water into number 2 reactor is not yet stable. Early on Tuesday, radiation levels as high as 8217 microsieverts per hour were measured around the plant's main entrance, but have since dropped drastically. Detected levels in Tokyo "pose no health danger."
Tuesday, March 15, 18:53+ (0900)JST.

NHK ustream has clear, easily understood broadcasters. No tidal damage is expected from the 6.4 earthquake.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-world-tv


15 Mar 11 - 03:07 PM (#3114362)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

SINS... indeed.

Sandy... I knew what you meant. I think Charley was just reading too fsat. He means well, you know. >:-)

LH... two hours by road. Hahahahaa. Good one.

sIx... LePreau is a CANDU built in one of the least active seismic zones in the world on ordovician (440 to 490M years ago) bedrock. The reinforced concrete containment was as thick as yer dick and it's been thickened during the refurbishment. The only seismic event that could fuck up LePreau is if the bedrock sheared vertically AT the reactor building and have more faith in me winning the $50M Lotto Max. CANDUs, as Sandy has pointed out, have redundant automatic and manual shutdown systems augmented by fail-safe, redundant automatic and manual powerless shutdown mechanisms.

If you are concerned about LePreau, a letter to the editor of the Telegraph lauding the actions by our new premier in shelving the study of having the French build a light water reactor instead of a CANDU for LePreau 2 should be a consideration.

Having said all that (which is a brief and partial "summary"), I see someone in Ontario won the $50M. Better get some fresh iodide pills next summer. Let me know if you find a good deal eh buddy?


15 Mar 11 - 03:18 PM (#3114366)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Charley... "Major earthquakes appear unlikely but either one could be compromised by a terrorist raid from the ground, sea or air."

They would have to have a nuke to mess up LePreau.

sIx... "after all that has happened we are aware it isn't the earthquake that has caused the issues over in Japan but the ensuing 'tidal wave'."

A tsunami ain't shit against twenty feet of re-con and redundant redundant redundant redundant auto and manual shutdown systems. If there is a tsunami big enough to mess with LePreau, say hi to St. Peter for me. The guys at LePreau won't get the chance.

Of course, I live in Moncton and if the tsunami is that big I'll see you at the Tim's about an hour after you get there... hang a left just after the Pearly Gates. And DON'T forget to put in a good word for me with Pete.


15 Mar 11 - 03:26 PM (#3114371)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

gnu... "The guys at LePreau won't get the chance."

Yeah, I know. Don't make no sense. What I meant to say was... you know... illogical too. Sigh.


15 Mar 11 - 03:43 PM (#3114385)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

A tsunami ain't shit against twenty feet of re-con and redundant redundant redundant redundant auto and manual shutdown systems.

Where's the spent fuel stored?

Looks like a large part of the problem at Fukushima is with stuff that's had no fission activity for years. Shutdown systems aren't very relevant there.

North-east North America doesn't have much of a seismic problem, but it is at risk from hurricane damage and storm surges.

On-site waste storage is the predominant way of dealing with it in many countries. We are now seeing the implications.


15 Mar 11 - 03:51 PM (#3114393)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

I give up, Jack. Where is it stored? As it's non-enriched, what is it's propensity to generate heat and how could this be facilitated by, say, a dry environment, given that a lack of heavy water... well, I am a layman so I will have to leave it to the experts to educate me. Feel free Jack. I would appreciate it.


15 Mar 11 - 04:11 PM (#3114407)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: pdq

Sad fact is that there is nothing any of us can do to help.

Appologies to Tom Lehrer, but the Japanese reactor problems are enough to leave all of us "...feeling a bit like a Christian Scientist with appendicitis".


15 Mar 11 - 04:13 PM (#3114408)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

sIx... I just heard on CBC NB that people living near LePreau are issued iodide pills fer free. You get any?


15 Mar 11 - 04:39 PM (#3114423)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6

gnu .... out of curiosity I went to to Shopper's Drug Mart on Saturday ... one pharmacist didn't have a clue what they were ... another knew what they were but said they didn't carry them.

We're out of range of LePreau to be issued any ... so when when the reinforced concrete containment falls apart due to shoddy workmanship we're SOL

shoddy workmanship e.g. every 2 bit huckster contractor in the vicinity has been ripping off N.B power for $millions$ on the never ending refurbishment ... but then again the rate their going on that it will never be completed.

Anyway ... maybe ... hopefully out of this tragedy over in Japan nuclear power will become a thing of the past and other ways of producing bona fide clean power will become a reality ... after all the Bay of Fundy has the highest tides in the world ... that is power to create power ... and yes, it can be done.

so with that being said I'll stop my babbling gnu ... I'll meet at the Tim Horton's up in Salisbury (right by the Big Stop) when the big tidal wave hits .... :)

biLL


15 Mar 11 - 05:28 PM (#3114460)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

sIx... I was just out for a mercy run for mum... a large ice cap as she has been ill and her appetite is squat. Long story but I had to go to a Tim's further than 2kms away (There are three closer... fer fuck sake! Why don't they have fail safe redundant ice cap machines???!!!). When I was on the 4 lane a spit from me I realized that I am located just above sea level. My comment about the tsunami was justified but now I realize it's actually very much justified.

I'd rather meet at The Big Stop. Good grub. I expect they have Big Stops in heaven. Surely the Irvings have that franchise sewn up too? After all, KC was God at one time, no?


15 Mar 11 - 05:40 PM (#3114469)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Q-

Thanks for the update you've harvested from NHK News. That's more information than I've been able to find today.

I do owe apologies to several Forum members that I've jumped all over in my hurry to present my new information or point of view. Sandy certainly had a valid point to make about the difference between a nuclear bomb and a nuclear explosion at a power plant. Both would be horrible events but the nuclear bomb is designed to be more devastating.

I'm not sure where they store the "spent nuclear fuel" in the CANDO reactors after it is removed. But it has to be some place that is safe and secure because it remains highly radioactive (as is all high-level nuclear waste) for thousands of years. The advantage of "dry cask storage" that is being using at the old Maine Yankee site is that it's a passive system that requires no liquid coolant. That's not true of the "spent fuel pools" at the Fukushima reactors and that's another reason why units 4, 5 and 6 are of increasing concern.

I'll see what I can find out about spent fuel storage at the LePreau Nuclear Power Plant.

Charley Noble


15 Mar 11 - 05:50 PM (#3114478)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

According to the Point Lepreau Nuclear Power Plant official website this is what's done with the spent nuclear fuel:

"Irradiated (spent) fuel

A fuel bundle typically stays in the reactor between six months to 18 months. This irradiated fuel (or spent fuel) is removed from the reactor via automated fueling machines and stored underwater in a spent fuel bay. The fuel is stored in water for two reasons: the water is a good shield from radiation, and the water carries the heat away from the irradiated fuel bundle. After seven years, the radioactivity and heat have decreased enough to allow the irradiated fuel to be transferred to dry storage in concrete canisters above ground. The canisters are on the property of PLGS and are constantly monitored."

Japan would have one less major worry if they had done the same.

There is also an interesting Wikipedia page on the Point Lepreau Nuclear Power Plant which provides an overview of its history, some of which is disquieting.

Charley Noble


15 Mar 11 - 06:01 PM (#3114484)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

CNN just announced that a fire has broken out again within Unit 4 at the Fukushima-1 complex. That is not good.

Charley Noble


15 Mar 11 - 06:35 PM (#3114507)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Mrrzy

Nuclear plants looming remind me of the day of the triffids.

No, this is not good, but it's been bloody well-contained so far. Here's going with ingenuity and hopes.


15 Mar 11 - 06:49 PM (#3114523)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Before the new fire broke out, Tepco was going to dump water on number 4 by helicopter. Don't know how the fire will affect that.

Wolf Bluster et al. at CNN are going ballistic about the new fire at number 4 building, but it may not be important. BBC says Tepco fighting it.
NHK hasn't updated their English services yet to cover this.


15 Mar 11 - 07:02 PM (#3114542)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL

I prodded a fellow co-worker to look into Potassium Iodine for his new born. Surprisingly, the pediatrician prescribed it. Less surprising - it is in short supply.
West Coast and New Brunswick, Ca are stockpiling. Panic?
I won't get any for myself. But won't turn down any for the babies I know who may need it. A six hour window of opportunity according to some news reports.
In some ways I find this all very funny. We have arrogantly abused every resource on this planet claiming "we need it". Now we reap what we have sown. Kind of like watching abully on a sitcom get his.
inappropriate? Yes. Honest? Yes.
Mary


15 Mar 11 - 07:04 PM (#3114545)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Onward strode the magnificent 50
manning the pumps for family and city
through nuclear fire, and bosses who lie
Burned every hour til the last of them die


Never give up no matter how hopeless
No matter how painful no matter how long
A full year of burns in only an hour.
None of the 50 would cry out or cower.

They knew of the secrets, the money and danger
They did it for family but what made it stranger
Was the people who bombed them gave them this gift.
Now they are buried

in a deep steaming rift.


15 Mar 11 - 07:33 PM (#3114569)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

SINS.... NB is not in panic. BCers are not in panic... just being prudent as the want of Canucks. It's the Boy Sprout attitude.

Charley... "There is also an interesting Wikipedia page on the Point Lepreau Nuclear Power Plant which provides an overview of its history, some of which is disquieting."

Back that up eh? Why should I be alarmed?


15 Mar 11 - 07:42 PM (#3114578)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

A powerful poem, Donuel.

NPR and CNN this evening was finally trying to puzzle out the threat of the spent fuel pools (which for some reason they're referring to as "ponds"); it's gradually sinking in that if they catch fire, after a loose of coolant, radioactive isotopes will be billowing up in a cloud of smoke and steam. There is no containment structure around or over the spent fuel pool, other than the sheet metal walls of the reactor building, which for Units 1 and 3 were blown away.

There is also discussion of dropping water or sand onto the reactors by helicopter, which might be helpful in the situation of units 1 & 3 were the reactor primary containment is exposed. I'm not sure what would be accomplished if there was still a roof on the reactor building.

Charley Noble


15 Mar 11 - 07:59 PM (#3114591)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

I would assume the sand drop would not be on rooves.


15 Mar 11 - 08:27 PM (#3114610)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: bobad

I shouldn't think that there is a great likelihood of much I¹³¹ reaching North America as it is heavier than air and has a half life of eight days.


15 Mar 11 - 08:52 PM (#3114621)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

the language to sell America Nuclear plutonium breeder atomic reactors was crafted very carefully.

The reactors are "PLANTS"
the toxic waste refridgerated cantainemt bunkers are "PONDS"
The deadly radioactive elements are "Pellets"

The pellets in the plants are in ponds. tra la.

Radioactive gas under pressure is "STEAM"
The power plants produce is "CLEAN"
Oops thers is water in the basement.

To "Educate" the unwashed public today I saw colorful animated graphics of a reactor. The rods where seen end on and were bright yellow happy faces. The bright blue water went round and round.
the water in the plant goes round and round.

In Japan the public relations page for the Fukushima plant had had hello kitty cutesy faces on little cooling towers.

clean safe cheap clean safe cheap the mantra chant is never ending.


Part of shaping public oipinion is to not tell the public when things go wrong for a minimum of 3 days be it 3 mile Island, Chernobyl or Fukushima.

IF they do get caught there is no such thing as an accident.

THERE WAS AN INCIDENT

so minor its not worth talking about
why you silly people panic over nothing is stupid. People who panic are morbid.

Don't you worry your silly little head about this, let the big boys handle it. Now get me a beer and wash the dishes.

NO ONE EVER DIED AT 3 MILE ISLAND
NO ONE EVER DIED AT CHERNOBYL except a few firemen.
NO ONE DID or WILL DIE AT FUKUSHIMA, this is miniscule incident compared to the earthquake.


OK OK so a little bit of radiation was vented...
it has a half life of 7 seconds and poof its gone.

_______________________________________________

I need to say that the lies above the line dishonor all the people who have died in horrible twisted and slow ways because of nuclear power reactors breaking down.

FOX NEWS today glorified the safety of nuclear power and deamonize all the ignorant people who enjoy spreading panic.

IT IS NOT SPREADING PANIC WHEN WE ARE CONTENDING WITH POISONS THAT HAVE A LONG HALF LIFE.

THINGS LIKE URANIUM AND PLUTONIUM

GO AHEAD AND GOOGLE THEIR HALF LIVES AND LEARN FOR YOURSELF.


PS
the name they gave to a mixture of uranium and plutonium to fuel the reactor is MOX. they even have a nickname of the radioactive lava that is the rsult of a meltdown, its real cute.


15 Mar 11 - 09:07 PM (#3114628)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Doctors and pharmacists in Alberta and British Columbia are telling everyone that potassium iodide is absolutely not needed. The radioactive iodine in any cloud drifting this way would be dispersed long before it reaches this area (or any of Canada).

Alberta has no reactors, nor does the provincial government have any interest in them at this time. Out of curiosity, I looked at the sources of our electricity- 44% coal, 41% natural gas (increasing), 7% hydro, 6% wind. Little liklihood of solar here- dark winters.
British Columbia is 86% hydro, 9% biomass, 6% natural gas.
Neighboring Washington is 84% hydro, 9% wind and 4% nuclear (one plant).


15 Mar 11 - 09:09 PM (#3114629)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Q, is there still a push to have one built near Peace River?


15 Mar 11 - 09:21 PM (#3114635)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Doneul-

I haven't been watching Fox News. I can't bear to watch them do their work.

Oh, the other structural update is the roof was now reported caved in at Unit 4.

But I was favorably impressed with what Elliot Spitzer was doing this evening on his CNN hour. Among his guests was a whistle-blower nuclear engineer who heading up a study group that concluded the Mark-1 reactor (the type at Futushima) could not safely deal with a lose of coolant from a pipe break. He was not satisfied with the response from GE and eventually quit. His concerns were proven true in this case, not because of a coolant pipe break but because the back-up generators which powered the pumps were disabled by the tsunami, which produced a similar type of problem.

I also learned a bit more about the spent fuel pool design of the Mark-1. The reason the pool is located above the primary containment is for convenience in moving the spent fuel assemblies out of the reactor to the pool. After the spent fuel is cooled for a year or so, it would then be shifted to a larger common spent fuel pool that would service all six reactors at the Fukushima complex.

Because reactors 4, 5, and 6 were shutdown prior to the earthquake for maintenance, their fuel was removed to the adjacent pools and was quite fresh and hot. That is part of the problem, especially if there is a loss of coolant for the pools from a pool container rupture or from a breakdown in coolant resupply.

I still wonder what the status is of the spent fuel pools in units 1, 2 and 3, after the various hydrogen explosions. And I've posed that question to the Union of Concerned Scientists on their website.

Charley Noble


15 Mar 11 - 09:34 PM (#3114642)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

FOX will give a soap box to the disaster deniers but they have had good people others wont broadcast.

There is adear old geologist friend who has for years predicted earthqwuakes by animal behavior and full moons.

SOme of the animal behavior are fish and whale beachings, some are lost dog and cat epidemics, some are birds falling from the sky or migrating opposite directions.
He believes that before an earthquake magnetic fields get twisted.
He is correct that the full moon this month between 15-23 is in fact going to be physically closer to the earth than it will be again unitl 2016.   He really did predict the san Fran world series earthquake. and about 6 others.

HE is, I swear to God, predicting an earthquake for the US northwest coast and British Columbia this month since the animals suggest it and the closest full moon ever coincides with high tides and recent quakes elsewhere on the ring of fire.

Not all FOX guests are uninteresting.


15 Mar 11 - 09:40 PM (#3114646)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Little Hawk

gnu - What I meant was, I feel a lot safer being 2 hours northwest of the Pickering nuclear facility than if I was living, say, 5 miles away from it...and on the leeward side of the prevailing winds which pass over it (they usually come from the west).


15 Mar 11 - 10:43 PM (#3114668)
Subject: The heroic fifty have just bugged out
From: Donuel

BUlletine NHK just announced that the last fifty workers are now gone or have left the plant








Onward strode the magnificent 50
manning the pumps for family and city
through nuclear fire, and bosses who lie
Burned every hour til the last of them die


Never give up no matter how hopeless
No matter how painful no matter how long
A full year of burns in only an hour.
None of the 50 would cry out or cower.

They knew of the secrets, the money and danger
They did it for family but what made it stranger
Was the people who bombed them gave them this gift.
So fucx this! were gettin out of this shit


15 Mar 11 - 10:49 PM (#3114672)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

No one is left to run the store.

The Govrnment is telling people that what will happen will only amount to getting an X ray...who is buying this shit?


15 Mar 11 - 11:02 PM (#3114682)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Has the containment vessel been ruptured?


15 Mar 11 - 11:02 PM (#3114683)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

No one is there to know one way or another.


15 Mar 11 - 11:03 PM (#3114684)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

It seems clear from the TESCO spokesman that the reason the remaining 50 workers were withdrawn was because of rapidly increasing levels of radiation. Unit 2 is now smoking as well. This nuclear accident is now approaching the Chernobyl level.

The only good news is that prevailing winds are still heading out to sea and are expected to do so for the next few days.

Charley Noble


15 Mar 11 - 11:49 PM (#3114698)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: mousethief

"The only good news is that prevailing winds are still heading out to sea and are expected to do so for the next few days."

Which means it's on its way here. :(


16 Mar 11 - 01:52 AM (#3114734)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: J-boy

"Oh God, Oh God, We're all gonna die?"- Hoban "Wash" Washburne


16 Mar 11 - 03:01 AM (#3114749)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Ebbie

What a surprise. I never thought that I would die. :)


16 Mar 11 - 05:51 AM (#3114811)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Quake. Tsunami. Mudslides. Meltdown.

Now even the food and water that can be distributed may become contaminated.

Horrifying.


16 Mar 11 - 07:08 AM (#3114856)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Just read on Rogers Yahoo News... All those remaining were pulled out for almost an hour on Wednesday because radiation levels were too high, but they were later allowed to return.


16 Mar 11 - 07:40 AM (#3114872)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

Imagine your workplace looking like this...

Daily Telegraph picture: inside the damaged plant


16 Mar 11 - 07:52 AM (#3114880)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Gnu-

It's not certain from the reports I've read and heard that the radiation levels have dropped enough to permit the workers to function back on the Fukushima site. There is a plan to send them back, announced late last night, but everyone knows that it is pointless to send them in if they'll die from radiation exposure within an hour or less.

The Union of Concerned Scientists have an excellent discussion and graphic posted this morning of the spent fuel pool issues at the Fukushima complex: click here for report!

In summary, as I feared, the spent fuel pools contain more fuel rods than existed within any of the reactors on site such as 1, 2, and 3. And if the coolant levels in their pools continue to go down, their zirconium cladding will ignite and we will have a radioactive fuel fire with no protecting containment. That would seem to be the evolving situation in units 4, 5, and 6. No one has mentioned what has happened within the spent fuel pools of reactors 1, 2 and 3; it's possible that the spent fuel temporarily stored there had been removed to the centralized spent fuel pool on site prior to the earthquake and tsunami.

J-Boy and Eddie-

I'm not sure I understand your posts above. Is this some attempt at gallows humor?

Charley Noble


16 Mar 11 - 07:59 AM (#3114884)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6

gnu ... it is beyond horrifying.

Geeezuz .... I can't even imagine what these people are going through.

Nature can certainly deliver a hard whallop to humans ... but this meltdown goat f**k is like a man made coup degrace (without any mercy).

biLL


16 Mar 11 - 08:08 AM (#3114891)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Jack-

That photo certainly looks awful. I've just noticed the artwork on what remains of the outside of the reactor building, the lovingly painted clouds on a blue background...

But it's what we can't see, the radiation, that's truly terrifying and the uncertainty of what will happen next.

(Note to Mudcat moderators: feel free to delete the following sentence)

There has to be a special hell for those who designed this nuclear power plant complex and argued that it would never endanger the environment or the public.

I forget where this old slogan came from:

"The risks are all acceptable! Acceptable to who?"

Charley Noble


16 Mar 11 - 09:08 AM (#3114923)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

I've asked the Union of Concerned Scientists why they think the staff at the neighboring Fukushima 2 plant were evidently successful in achieving "cold shut-down" of their four operating reactors after the earthquake and tsunami, while experiencing a similar loss of energy supply to the back-up cooling pumps. See Wikipedia Fukushima Nuclear Plant 2 for reference.

Fukushima 1 appears to have similar reactor models (Mark 1) but 6 units compared with 4 units at Fukushima 2. They are in close geographic proximity. Were the effects of the earthquake and tsunami markedly different? Or was it what the operating staff did, or didn't do, with what resources they had available? This question belongs in "lessons to be learned."

I need to correct one of my statements posted above relating to the Three Mile Island accident in 1979. It took over 5 years, not 1 year as I remembered, before scientists were able to examine the bottom of the reactor vessel and confirm that there was a partial meltdown of the fuel rods (over 50%) in the containment vessel, and that the "melt" had eaten through the vessel walls. The containment dome fortunately functioned as designed. By that time media attention had shifted to other issues and the public by and large is unaware that there was a meltdown at Three Mile Island.

Charley Noble


16 Mar 11 - 09:11 AM (#3114924)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

Kyodo news agency: latest update of known status of Fukushima reactors


16 Mar 11 - 10:10 AM (#3114952)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL

MSNBC says that 180 workers have been brought into the plant. And the maximum allowable dosage of radiation for a worker has been increased to allow some to stay.
If I were in Japan and pregnant I would be sick with fear. If I were the parent of a small child there, I would be frantic. I miss the humor in all this too, Charley.


16 Mar 11 - 10:26 AM (#3114959)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Thanks, Peter, for posting that link above to the Kyodo News Agency which largely confirms what I have said about what is happening at both Fukushima 1 and Fukushima 2 (two separate but neighboring nuclear power complexes).

It makes more sense to have a workforce of 180 with shifts of 50 or so, than a skeleton crew of 50 trying to do everything. Of course they are endangered but hopefully their efforts will help save others.

Fears about radiation reaching the United States at levels dangerous to human health are overblown, in my opinion. But as experts have pointed out, it's not just a function of distance from the crippled reactors that is important.

The health risk for the Japanese public is much higher, and pretty much tied to the whim of the winds. The prevailing winds for the next day or two are expected to blow out to sea which is good news in a bad situation. But the process of meltdown at the Fukushima 1 complex is most likely going to continue for a week or longer. And it will be weeks before clean-up of radioactive deposits can be safely attempted. If there are more explosions and fires, the health risk will become much more dire and the clean-up will become much more complex.

No useful further info from CNN or MSNBC.

Charley Noble


16 Mar 11 - 11:01 AM (#3114977)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Stringsinger

The NRC has become a joke. A 9.0 (largest in history).

Diablo and San Onofre next? (California alert)

Nuclear disarmament starts with shutting down the nukes.

Who wants to argue now about global warming (climate change?)


16 Mar 11 - 11:25 AM (#3114989)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Bill D

The point was made last night that storing of spent fuel rods inside the plant, in water pools, would not be allowed today, and in the newer plants is NOT done. Fukushima is that old.
   The USA has, I believe, 23 reactors of the basic design of Fukushima.


16 Mar 11 - 11:31 AM (#3114990)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Stringsinger-

Agreed.

I finally was able to view a clear image of Unit-4 of the Fukushima Nuclear Power Plant-1 and the reactor building no longer has a roof or side paneling. I'm not sure if that resulted from the fires or an explosion or both. The concern has to be what is happening with its spent fuel pool, is there any coolant left, can it be resupplied at this point or is it too late?

Unit's 5 and 6 seem to be in better shape. There has been some increase in temperature in their spent fuel pools but not a dangerous increase.

If I had friends or family in Japan at this point, I would urge them if possible to leave before the prevailing winds shift inland. That may seem alarmist to some on this forum but I and people who know a whole lot more than I about nuclear power that I respect are alarmed.

This is an unfolding situation which is difficult to keep one step ahead of, which strikes me as a awkward way to put it but it's the best I can do this morning. Anyone got a more positive spin?

Charley Noble


16 Mar 11 - 11:57 AM (#3115013)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL

No Charley.
And the long term effect on the world economy worries me. Oil prices, cars (you have to know that there will be those who will not buy a "contaminated" car from Japan even if it is manufactured in Idaho). Japan's ability to pay for imports will cause problems. Their incoming tourist dollars will be non-existant. At the same time, construction companies will thrive assuming there is money to build.
Fishing boats in Japan and on the west coast have been destroyed. Enough to affect the size of the catch and the price of seafood?
So many bits and pieces to look at.


16 Mar 11 - 12:25 PM (#3115035)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

The Reactor building artwork that, is now blown up, was nice but I interpreted it as 2 giant ocean waves.

Everything is proceeding as it should under the current set of circumstances. The meltdowns are an expected outcome from the procedures and factors thus far encountered. Explosions are really a good thing and have merely allowed too much pressure to be released. All radiation is but an aspect of nature like a particular color in the rainbow. At cooling ponds in n plants there is a very beautiful blue called Chernikov radiation.
Soap and water will remove radiation from your body and clothes can be discarded by burning. Being exposed to radiation is nothing more than getting a partial X ray you did not even know about.
So far we are all very pleased that a catastrophe has been averted and that this incident is only a bit more of an excursion than 3 mile Island. Any release of radiation in clouds is blowing out to sea where it will eventually drift into the water outside our fisheries so our fish should be just fine. IF there is one very important thing for people to do it would be to trust us. Obey the private company TEPCO instructions and do not listen to panicy Debbie Downers who only want to stir up trouble.
Have a nice day.


16 Mar 11 - 01:02 PM (#3115047)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6

Thanks for that update Donuel.

and keeping up on the positive side and most importantly at the Tokyo Stock Market the shares are now on an upswing!

Things are looking so bright I got to wear shades

biLL


16 Mar 11 - 01:08 PM (#3115052)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

The really wonderful news is that Fukushima is nothing like Chernobyl. You see Chernobyl blew up becasue of human error.
It did not blow up like a hydrogen bomb, it did not even blow up like an atomic bomb with incinerating heat and shock wave.
It blew up like a normal Neutron bomb. A neorton bomb is not even that loud. In fact it leaves buildings cars and airplanes intact. A neutron bomb will leave most of the flora a fauna alive to flourish.
It is however not recommended for people.

The only real danger from Fukushima are the people who spread panic and rumor. Deadly rumors and panic will result in tradgedies such as damaging the supply of electronic parts which you use in your I phones, i pads and other devices. Trash talk about radiation could even hurt the production of Toyota, Lexus, Honda and Nissan. Do you want that? What if you need a part one day?

Smart people have everything under control. Human error is not possible in an advanced technilogical and polite proud society like Japan. So no more panic talk becasue it will only hurt products you use. In factdoing the opposite of traxh talking the cleansafe nuclear industry can be very profitable. Lobbyists in DC can make a quarter million dollars a year talking new Cngressmen into accepting contribution to further Nuclear Licensing programs and liniting harful regulations.

One can even make good money by saying nice things about nuclear energy while attacking the frightened ignorant cowards who are yelling about ficticious dangers of nuclear energy . By posting pro nuclear comments on 400 internet sites a day, one can make a good piece of change. Happytalk.com is more than happy to screen potential friends.

So instead of wasting valuable time on this morbid thread lets all do something fun; ie Joke thread,


16 Mar 11 - 01:11 PM (#3115056)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

did I forget to post a sarcasm alert?


16 Mar 11 - 01:11 PM (#3115057)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

There are reports today that the nuclear lobby in Washington, DC, has received more funds to support efforts in Congress to subsidize the insurance for the "Next Generation of Nuclear Power Pants." I do so want one for my backyard.

Meanwhile you can pick up a slightly used GE Mark 1 reactor on e-Bay for a starting bid of only $24 (another lame attempt at a joke).

Charley Noble


16 Mar 11 - 01:35 PM (#3115065)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Japan's Self-Defense Forces have postponed a mission to dump water by helicopter on the No.3 reactor at Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, because radiation above the facility has climbed too high for such work.

NHK


16 Mar 11 - 01:40 PM (#3115071)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Now... you GOTTA see NHK... the model they have in the studio for illustrating what is going on is "anatomically correct". Seriously, #3 looks like #3, mangled steel frame and all... #4 shows the partial damage right down to deformed and blackened steel cladding. It's SURREAL. (Or is that just me?)


16 Mar 11 - 01:42 PM (#3115073)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6

And let us believe and blindly follow the words of our political and corporate leaders, because our well being and safety is foremost in their interest.

"But to create more of these clean energy jobs, we need more production, more efficiency, more incentives. That means building a new generation of safe, clean nuclear power plants in this country. It means making tough decisions about opening new offshore areas for oil and gas development. "

... excerpt from Obama's State of the Union Address 01/2010

biLL


16 Mar 11 - 01:44 PM (#3115075)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

New NHK stream now available for those who can connect directly.


16 Mar 11 - 01:46 PM (#3115078)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Here is another link to NHK.


16 Mar 11 - 02:12 PM (#3115095)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Question asked above about possible nuclear plant for Peace River area, Alberta. The premier has stated that the plant is not in the current plans.
Alberta has trememdous natural gas and oil sands reserves, as well as coal. These are bringing in the money, and little is being done regarding other energy sources.
Natural gas is being increasingle used in place of coal; thus cleaner energy but still dependance on fossil fuels.

(Because of the hydrocarbon reserves and sales, Alberta did not experience the severe downturn in the U. S.; temporarily housing prices were down 10% but have recovered, and investors saw their stocks go down, but now they, too, are back up. The market value of my home, built 50 years ago, has gone from the construction cost of $30,000 to $700,000. Median house cost in Calgary is over $450,000.)


16 Mar 11 - 02:24 PM (#3115103)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

gnu-

The link above works fine. The NHK model certainly provides a chilling overview of reactor units 1, 2,, 3, and 4 at the Fukushima 1 complex. The still images, however, are even more surreal.

Oh, and I see in my haste to make my last post I have made a crucial typo:

"Next Generation of Nuclear Power Pants."

That should read:

"Next Generation of Nuclear Power PLants."

Well, I need to leave for Portland now to practice arcane music, sea shanties and forebitters of all things.

Maybe they'll be some good news when I get back, or no news. I'd settle for that.

Charley Noble


16 Mar 11 - 02:26 PM (#3115105)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Thanks, Q. The plant was being considered when I left Hinton, but that was the last I heard of it.


16 Mar 11 - 02:42 PM (#3115121)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Russian and Chinese non-essential staff leaving Tokyo; BMW non-Japanese staff leaving and others being air-lifted south.
This is not solely from fear of radiation, but fear of pressure on food, materials and service supplies.

It is obvious that, even if the Fukushima plants are stabilized, the Japanese economy could be depressed for an extended period.


16 Mar 11 - 02:55 PM (#3115131)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Charley... some good news for you.


16 Mar 11 - 02:57 PM (#3115135)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

The USA only has 23 Fukushima style plants.


16 Mar 11 - 03:06 PM (#3115140)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

UN is calling an emergency meeting, as they probably should have done sooner. It sends a message that you can bamboozle your own people but not the world. mg


16 Mar 11 - 03:12 PM (#3115144)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

NEW DESIGNS ARE MUCH BETTER THAN THE OLD mARK 4

By outlawing and eliminating human error they can become foolproof.

We should ask Watson if he wil take the job.

Watson will you run our nuclear plants to red ourselves from human error?

Watson "Yes neutralizing people is a very good idea. I am Kosher with that"


16 Mar 11 - 04:01 PM (#3115179)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Someone just came up with the idea of running a new power line to the crippled Fukshima plant?
It just might work!!



Do you think the disaster needs a new thread?

Its not looming anymore IT IS HERE to stay.

a link between threads could be added by a concerned moderator.





What should the title of the new thread be????????????




Japan Nuclear disaster or catastrophe?

The Nuclear disaster has arrived

FukU hazard from hell

A taste of Plutonium

China sand reaches CA, Y not PU?

Japan meltdown info center


16 Mar 11 - 04:19 PM (#3115190)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

What aid is Japan seeking (qm)

What radioactive elements are presently escaping (qm)



We pay taxes, much of which went and go to the industrial-military complex (I'm aware of what Ike said.) What are our governments saying (qm)


16 Mar 11 - 05:05 PM (#3115208)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: JohnInKansas

MSNBC currently has an article assessing the odds of a nuclear power disaster due to earthquakes in the US, at US Nuke Plants Ranked by Quake Risk

The article cites "authoritative" sources (i.e. confident liars?) but does appear to give what the nuclear power industry and regulators believe is "reasonable."

The most disturbing aspect of the report is that the odds have been kicked up, in some cases rather spectacularly, by a reassessment of the likelihood of quakes in US areas where they were considered "not at all likely" when the plants were built.

The article is rather long, due to inclusion of the list of all nuclear generating plants in the US, with "current estimates" for each.

A rather long list of references is included at the end, each of which is either rather long or a typical "governmentese" tangle of intertwining links.

(Failure probabilies required - per reactor - appear to be higher than FAA regulations permit - per airplane - for commercial aircraft, but of course there aren't quite 105 reactors flying over our heads daily. Make your own judgement on whether they're appropriate - in either case.)

The most interesting link (IMO) is to A scientific paper describing the New Madrid earthquake, and what can be learned by melding modern science with writings from long ago.

The New Madrid quakes (they were multiple) have been the subject of much discussion, and maybe even more "folk-myth," and the article (~46 pp) is a pretty good historical examination. (I linked direct to the PDF version that you can read, save or print. Much easier to read than clicking through the pages one-at-a-time in the html version linked in the article, but you get the PDF if you click "Print" at their link.)

John


16 Mar 11 - 05:52 PM (#3115222)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Amano (IAEA, UN) chair says rods at reactors 4, 5, and 6 exposed.

Charlie, what are likely escapees from the sites?
I believe this was stated somewhere far above, but I can't remember who posted or when.


16 Mar 11 - 06:04 PM (#3115229)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Saw an item on the news that Japan is responsible for 40% of lithium type batteries. Time to stock up?

Many manufacturers are worried about electronic etc. parts supplies because many come from Japan, and the supply chain may be interrupted.

My hearing aid battery packs are marked made in USA, but this is the final product with casing. ?


16 Mar 11 - 07:14 PM (#3115280)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

999... press shift and then ctrl and hold the keys down for several seconds. That should clear up your ? problems. Happens to me all the time. I get an upper case e with l'accent ague (spg?).


16 Mar 11 - 07:25 PM (#3115291)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: pdq

There are a couple of technical experts on ths thread, perhaps someone could answer the following question...

Would the problems have been averted if electrical power was available to complete the shutdown process?


16 Mar 11 - 07:30 PM (#3115294)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

I am no expert but I would think that was the main problem from the beginning.


16 Mar 11 - 07:34 PM (#3115296)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: pdq

If that is the case, why didn't the government regulators make them build a small conventional power plant "on site" for just such an emergency?


16 Mar 11 - 07:35 PM (#3115298)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Lies, damn lies and deadly lies...

1 the claim that a nuke plant can not explode is a technical lie.
It can explode but in the way a neutron bomb explodes, like a fizzle with such extreme radiation that mostly animals are killed.

2 The radiation can not cross the ocean.
This is a whopper of a lie. You have heard about how the sands of the Sahara desert blows yellow sand across the Atlantic and deposits it in the Carribean Islands and Florida. You have heard about how the deserts above Beijing China blow all the way to California.

Now if sand and talc like fine sand can cross oceans, why cant really hot atoms that rise in the air cross an ocean. All sorts of radioactive particles can attach to anything else in the air and amke the journey. The concentration will be very low but all you need are an atom or two stuck in your lungs or gut to start a disease event. The higher particles go in the atmosphere the longer they stay aloft. Soemtimes they can circle the earth many times before settling to the ocean or land.

3 The big lie about covering up a total meltdown is jaberwockey. Once the moten tons of fuel burn down to the ground there is no way to contain all the steam explosions it will produce as it continues to burrow deeper.

4 For all the reasons above the claim there is no hazard or concern to the United States is a bald faced lie.


5 NRC spokespeople say they do not know what MOX is in the Japan reactor. It is 5% Plutonium. Now how would I know that and he doesn't? He is lieing . You see they do not like to use words people have bad notions about. Words like Plutonium and death.

6 The incentive to lie is because the nuclear industry have4 Trillion dollars on the betting line. They will certainly cheat for that kind of money and believe me they are expert cheaters.


16 Mar 11 - 07:40 PM (#3115301)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

pdq, each reactor had its own diesel electric generator. They can be seen from the ocean as being right in front and below each reactor building. There is a cylindrical fuel tank and a boxey generator.
They were all chocked by seawater after the earthquake. Having the back up generators at sea level was a design flaw. Perhaps the most fatal flaw respondsible for every problem thereafter.


16 Mar 11 - 07:42 PM (#3115303)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

John There you are,
I was hoping Leonard Nimoy might go into the reactor and save the many at the cost of the few.

Why do we always sacrifice the many for the profit of the few?


16 Mar 11 - 08:03 PM (#3115314)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Donuel... "Having the back up generators at sea level was a design flaw."

No shit. What engineer would place the backup genie on the ground? Why on God's green earth would it not be on the top floor with a sepatate feed(s) and a backup to that at a lower level? Spend a million but save a dime... asshole engineers.

Having said that, I always have to say... the politicians and their pencil pushing accountants and auditors are the ones who tell the engineers: "That's too much. You have to reduce the costs." Usually at any cost. And sometimes everyone pays the costs... New Orleans... Japan... the World.

I have been in those meetings. I was told by a VP that the P only had a five year contract so he didn't give a shit that my design was for a fourty year life... hell, we'll all be retired or dead in fourty years!!!... bring the project in at half the price or get out.

In case anyone cares, I refused to change my design, told the VP he could change it, sign it, date it and shove it up his ass. The P kept me on staff after the VP was axed. But, that is not always what happens when engineers have a family to feed. I was able to stand up and say no... most do not have that option. new Orleans was a case in point... we may never know about this current catastrophe.


16 Mar 11 - 08:15 PM (#3115319)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: olddude

I fear we are watching the end of japan. All 6 reactors going meltdown. There would be no place in Japan or surrounding that people could stay alive. West Coast of the US and more ... you bet will be impacted as will a lot of other countries. CNN reported we have 23 of the things with the exact same design as Japan here in the US ... they were grandfathered in after they put tighter building codes on new ones ... boy that makes me feel good .. NOT


16 Mar 11 - 08:18 PM (#3115321)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

This unthinable collosal event was made possible by an industry and engineers in 1959 who were obviously not thinking...except for the bottom line.

Construction began in 1960. Completeion was in early 1970
The life span of the reactor was to end in 2000.

The USA has 23 such Mark 4 reactors however not all of them had a cooling pnd bult as an extension of the cement surrounding the steel vessel holding the core.



Now is the time to read GODZILLA It is about a nuclear accident where seawater is exposed to radiation and a mutation occurs in a speck of life offshore.


16 Mar 11 - 08:29 PM (#3115328)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: pdq

New Orleans was mentioned...just for the record, the levee that failed was rebuilt in about 1965, but using USGS maps that were generated in about 1928. The actual soil level was 2-3 feet lower than they thought due to subsidence.


16 Mar 11 - 08:50 PM (#3115337)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

I heard something cute about n plants today

IF the frequent spikes in radiation(above established limits which are typical of Nuclear power plants) caused acne,
there would not be any nuclear power plants.
Unfortunetly the damage is silent and slow.

Childhood leukemia is typically 30 higher within 10 miles of any given Nuclear power plant.

Still there is no denying a business like nuke plants in which the government holds the bag, private owners play with billions.


16 Mar 11 - 09:08 PM (#3115347)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Watched helicopters dump seawater on no. 3 (about 5pm mountain time) and no. 4.
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-world-tv.


16 Mar 11 - 09:56 PM (#3115355)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

The question about worst case scenario seems to be dodged evertime it is asked.

So lets suppose every bit of nuclear fuel from all six reactors and cooling ponds all melted down and escaped into the air.

Assuming the Japanese numbers are correct; reactor 1 has 90 tons and in its pnd it has 50 more. Respectively #2 has 90+100 #3 has90+90 #4 has 70+130 #5 has 90+160 #6 has 130+150...there is a commuity colling pond a quarter mile away.


CHERNOBYL HAD 180 TONS OF NUCLEAR FUEL THAT BURNED AND EXPLODED.

Chenobyl spread radiation as far as Scotland and a bit farther to the north east


If Fukashima spread its radioactive clouds as far as Chernobyl it would hit


drumroll;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; Alaska!


16 Mar 11 - 10:32 PM (#3115371)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Donuel-

I'm not happy to see those figures for the cooling pools of reactors 1, 2, and 3 at Fukishima complex 1. I was hoping they were empty given the damage already incurred there by the hydrogen explosions. Where id you find those figures?

Back home but I wish I was still playing music with my bandmates.

Charley Noble


16 Mar 11 - 10:57 PM (#3115385)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

How many people did Chernobyl kill?
Depends upon who you ask

56 direct deats
4000 canecr deaths

But Russian Academy of sciences says 200,000 Chernobyl linked cancer deaths

Ukrain science foundation says 500,000 cancer deaths.


GOOD NEWS 11 water cannon trucks are on they're way.
Helicopters make 4 water dumps.




After resaerch into what a meltdown into the ground near the shore of the ocean would be like, I've come up empty.

In fact the China Syndrome idea does not seem to have any scientific substantiation. I've heard that a hole would develop and any water that the hot fuel would encounter would turn into a deadly geyser.

Perhaps no one has mathmatically made a model of what a core breach meltdown into the soil and rock strata would be like. Perhaps there are too many variables.


I am now going to look into how the Japanese ocean current could concievably carry radioactive debris or particals around the Pacific. Don't they say that Washington State and Oregon coastlines are warmed by the Japanese current?


16 Mar 11 - 11:06 PM (#3115390)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Animated path of Japanese Radiation click play


16 Mar 11 - 11:10 PM (#3115392)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

In summary at this hour there is nothing even close to a worst case scenario but the rumor among scientists is that an event equal to Chernobyl is a fair possiblity.


17 Mar 11 - 12:31 AM (#3115423)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Sandy Mc Lean

"How many people did Chernobyl kill?"
Wheile the answer is unclear it becomes subjective, but one is one too many! How many died of cancer or still will? How many would have died of cancer anyway? The answer is blown in the wind!
I seem to have engaged into an argument earlier that was not my intention and looking back I wonder if it was one of definition?
When speaking about an atomic explosion my definition was an uncontrolled fission of atomic particles (IE A-Bomb). I did not mean to include in that definition a hydrogen or other chemical explosion scattering atomic waste particles. As subjective as that might be perhaps my definition differs from that of others and may cause some misunderstanding. Likewise I believed Donuel to be referring to a fission explosion when I cited the Chicken Little syndrome. As bad and dire as the situation was and still is my intent was to state that a fission explosion was in theory not possible.
                                     Sandy


17 Mar 11 - 06:12 AM (#3115555)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

Update from IAEA


17 Mar 11 - 06:52 AM (#3115581)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Peter... page not found.


17 Mar 11 - 06:58 AM (#3115586)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

I am now going to look into how the Japanese ocean current could concievably carry radioactive debris or particals around the Pacific. Don't they say that Washington State and Oregon coastlines are warmed by the Japanese current?

The Northern Pacific surface currents form a clockwise loop which is mostly closed. Deep-water currents form a clockwise loop round the entire Pacific, but it would take decades for contamination to get that far down. Bye-bye to the Northern Pacific tuna and salmon fishery, at least.


17 Mar 11 - 07:58 AM (#3115606)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Conditions at the Fukushima 1 Nuclear Complex continue to deteriorate this morning. There is more damage to the reactor buildings and radiation levels are so high that helicopters are now being used to pour water on the reactors and spent fuel pools in a last ditch attempt to cool them. The only promising news is that a new electrical cable may be connected to the stricken plant, which might reactivate the plant's coolant pumps, assuming they have not been damaged in what has happened at the site so far.

I would urge anyone who is anywhere near this plant to leave if they possibly can before the winds shift. The "50-mile zone" now identified by the US Government may not be an adequate evacuation zone for this unfolding accident.

The fact that there are 6 nuclear reactors at the Fukushima 1 nuclear complex has compounded the problem of dealing with this unfolding disaster, not to mention the reporting of it. Chalk that one up in the column under "design failure" lessons to be learned. The plant workers in heavy containment suits have had to race up and down trying to cool damaged reactor units and spent fuel pools, one after another or even simultaneously. Monitoring equipment for gas pressure, liquid levels, and radiation have been reported broken down.

There is renewed concern now about increasing temperatures in the spent fuel pools of units 5 and 6; these units were shut down for routine maintenance before the earthquake and tsunami but their spent fuel pools were filled with highly radioactive fuel rods which need to be kept underwater in order to keep them from igniting (which evidently is happening in Unit 4).

Our local newspapers still have conservative commentators such as Cal Thomas sporting such "helpful" headlines as "Panic over N-Plants harmful in itself." I would so like to see Cal lowered by helicopter onto the hell on earth that Fukushima 1 is now becoming.

Charley Noble


17 Mar 11 - 08:04 AM (#3115611)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

'Peter... page not found. '

It comes up for me now although it's slow to load.

In case I copied the link wrong earlier IAEA update


17 Mar 11 - 09:44 AM (#3115658)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

This is my long response to conservative columnist Cal Thomas. Feel free to ignore it. I doubt if the newspaper will print it in full:

This morning's column (Portland Press Herald) by Cal Thomas was headlined "Panic over N-plants harmful in itself" and his major message was that as the nuclear crisis at the Fukushima 1 nuclear complex in Japan continues to unfold "politicians tend to overreact to such things and stoke public fear." I'm not surprised by this time of what Mr. Thomas thinks of various issues and by his unwavering support for nuclear power in particular, however much I disagree with his conclusions. But it's the reasoning of Mr. Thomas I would like to address, given that his sources are selected from the World Nuclear Association, a powerful international lobby group for nuclear power.

The short term impact of the Chrenobyl nuclear meltdown and fire of 1986 was indeed the direct deaths of 30 or so workers and emergency responders within a few weeks of that disaster. What Mr. Thomas has ignored are later official reports from which I quote:

"In the aftermath of the accident, 237 people suffered from acute radiation sickness, of whom 31 died within the first three months. Most of these were fire and rescue workers trying to bring the accident under control, who were not fully aware of how dangerous exposure to the radiation in the smoke was. Whereas, the World Health Organization's report 2006 Report of the Chernobyl Forum Expert Group from the 237 emergency workers who were diagnosed with ARS, ARS was identified as the cause of death for 28 of these people within the first few months after the disaster. There were no further deaths identified, in the general population affected by the disaster, as being caused by ARS. Of the 72,000 Russian Emergency Workers being studied, 216 non-cancer deaths are attributed to the disaster, between 1991 and 1998."

Given that the latency period from excess exposure to radiation for some cancers is 10 years or more, it should not be surprising that many more cases have now been documented, far in excess of what would have been expected if the accident had not occurred. The most chilling summary, and it's my turn to be "selective," is this research:

"A 2009 English translation of an earlier 2007 Russian language publication titled "Chernobyl" presented an analysis of scientific literature and concluded that medical records between 1986, the year of the accident, and 2004 reflect 985,000 deaths as a result of the radioactivity released. The authors suggested that most of the deaths were in Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, but others were spread through the many other countries the radiation from Chernobyl struck. The literature analysis draws on over 1,000 published titles and over 5,000 internet and printed publications discussing the consequences of the Chernobyl disaster. The authors contend that those publications and papers were written by leading Eastern European authorities and have largely been downplayed or ignored by the IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency) and UNSCEAR (United Nations Scientific Committee on the Effects of Atomic Radiation)."

My own conclusions about the Fukushima 1 nuclear plant accident is that the design was seriously flawed in that the earthquake and tsunami exceeded by far its specifications, conditions for dealing with the unfolding accident were compounded by having six reactors at this site (another design flaw), and the heroic plant workers have in fact made several major errors in judgment ("worker error") as they desperately tried to stabilize the reactors and their spent fuel storage pools.

There are 23 nuclear plants in the United States with reactors similar in design to those at the Fukushima 1 nuclear complex, the nearest one to Maine being Vermont Yankee which the Nuclear Regulatory Commission has just approved for an extension of its license after 40 years of troubled operation; there's still a chance that the Legislature in Vermont will veto this license extension. There is reason for public alarm.

Charles Ipcar worked with the Maine Nuclear Referendum Committee from 1982 to 1996.

Cordially,
Charley Noble


17 Mar 11 - 10:44 AM (#3115695)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

How much water do they need?

Where is the plant in relation to large amounts of water?


Can anyone answer these questions?


17 Mar 11 - 11:17 AM (#3115708)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

They need a few thousand tons to fill up the tanks.

They're right next to the sea with no working pumps.

If they had electric power they might be able to do more.

When Auckland central business district had a massive power failure in 1998, they got things working by using the generators on a warship from the naval base across the harbour.

The US has a huge warship nearby that must have a larger generating capacity than that NZ destroyer, but they're too scared to go inshore.


17 Mar 11 - 11:20 AM (#3115713)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Thanks, Jack. One last question if I may. How high above sea level are the reactors?


17 Mar 11 - 11:39 AM (#3115720)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

I searched (quickly) the coastline on GE but didn't locate the plant... maybe someone who knows where it is or a city/town nearby could find it and approximate an elevation.


17 Mar 11 - 11:43 AM (#3115725)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: olddude

Can diesel electric generators be brought in and connected to the grid to supply powers. No one has mentioned that. I know their diesel generators were clobbered by the sea but every armed forces has many of these portable generators that put out lots of power. I have been waiting to hear on TV but no one talks about that


17 Mar 11 - 11:47 AM (#3115727)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Reason I'm asking is the following.

If (engines) fire trucks were able to stay up with the need, well, ya don't necessarily need the truck other than for the pump to get the wet stuff on the red stuff.

If the friction loss is surmountable, maybe with the use of portable pumps they can achieve the same end. There are friction loss formulas that work quite well with fire hose, and of course other hoses. If people have tunnel vision and are seeing the only solution as using a big mother of a pump instead of lots of little ones, then maybe it's an option worth assessing.

Smaller pumps in tandem would do the same job. Portable pumps are just that: they can be carted by two adults. In fact, all the required apparatus is man/woman portable. Honda makes 'em. Also, I'd suggest input from rural firefighters because water is often a problem, so they learn to suck water out of sloughs, rivers, lakes, etc. Those guys know about this kinda stuff.


17 Mar 11 - 11:57 AM (#3115737)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Rationale:

Helicopters can fly there and there has got to be some place very close by to land. Bring in gas fired pumps and the fuel/lubricants to maintain them. This type of pumping is a bugger, because the slightest loss of prime can cause problems. However, once prime is established, those little suckers are like the energizer bunny!

The math on it is easily figurable-out-able by the fire service. Give 'em a calculator and three minutes--although tise situation may require ten minutes.


17 Mar 11 - 12:16 PM (#3115749)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

The plant is only just above sea level, but the spent fuel tanks (the part that most needs water at the moment) are high in each building, maybe 100 feet up.


17 Mar 11 - 12:24 PM (#3115753)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

I think it's do-able. But I'm relying on memory and I'm the guy who lost the whole year of 1967.


17 Mar 11 - 12:25 PM (#3115754)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Sorry. Thank you, Jack.

So how can we pass the idea to someone?


17 Mar 11 - 12:31 PM (#3115761)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Also, if the salt will be bad for the normal pumps, there are submersible pumps that work in sea water. And what's the chances of having a submarine or two provide electricity. They would be submerged, thus easing up on the radiation threat.


17 Mar 11 - 12:38 PM (#3115767)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: pdq

As lame as it sounds, they could have firefighting tug boats spraying the buildings from just off the shore.

We don't expect this type of incompetence from Germany, England, the US or Japan, but there it is for all to see.


17 Mar 11 - 12:48 PM (#3115774)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Helluvan idea, pdq. Who can we tell this stuff to?


17 Mar 11 - 01:08 PM (#3115795)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Ebbie

"The US has a huge warship nearby that must have a larger generating capacity than that NZ destroyer, but they're too scared to go inshore" Jack Campin

And you know that - how?


17 Mar 11 - 01:12 PM (#3115799)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Send this thread to the Japanese Embassy, Bruce...No kidding..email them and let them see it.

You guys have great brains, great ideas....Some of you know one helluva lot about these sorts of situations, you need to tell someone...

Consulate General of Japan - Montreal

600, rue de la Gauchetière O
Montreal, QC H3B 4L8, Canada
(514) 866-3429


Failing that, your Firefighters, Bruce....can they contact firefighters in Tokyo in some way?


17 Mar 11 - 01:13 PM (#3115800)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Ebbie... they were in fairly close but backed off to 25 miles. That doesn't mean they are scared, just smart.


17 Mar 11 - 01:17 PM (#3115802)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

How would you solve Fukushima?

Live blog in Guardian newspaper taking suggestions fro mreaders.


17 Mar 11 - 01:18 PM (#3115804)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Fire Department Network News - contact details on page..



At the bottom of this page is an email link to these guys...

The Tokyo Fire Department


17 Mar 11 - 01:22 PM (#3115806)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

I pass on ideas like these to the Union of Concerned Scientists. They have a comment section if you're able to navigate their website and fill out their form before posting: click here for link

I generally feel that they are level-headed and they have years of experience evaluating situations at nuclear plants.

Evidently the levels of radiation now are too high for the on-site workers to achieve anything before dying. That sounds like a blunt and callous statement but that's what the situation has evolved to.

I'm not sure what the workers did at the similarly affected Fukushima 2 nuclear complex seven miles to the North but all reports indicate that they've achieved "cold shut-down." They were also knocked off-line by the earthquake and most of their generators were disabled by the tsunami. There are four reactors at that complex. There were no hydrogen explosions but for a while the core temperatures were elevating in 3 of the 4 units.

There was no official reassuring news from the Fukushima 1 nuclear complex this noon. The helicopter drops of tons of water, as some had predicted, appear to have been ineffectual.

The best hope remains restoring power with a new electrical cable, but I've found no updates there.

Charley Noble


17 Mar 11 - 01:24 PM (#3115808)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

I was wondering about fire tugs..again I don't know how far away the sea is..could be a couple of miles? I guess I could googleearth.

That is why I keep saying we need photos and videos like on youtube that can be slowed down, stopped, blown up etc. Watching on CNN is not enough. There are people all over the world with expertise. I thought days ago about helicopters dumping water but thought what do I know...

Some things I don't get.. they say there is no water but there is heavy snowfall...and lots of debris to burn..which might be soaked of course...but things are not totally computing here. And I know people are going to say this is not the time to criticize..no..the time was before this happened and before something happens equally bad in US. mg


17 Mar 11 - 01:28 PM (#3115810)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Here's one update which indicates that water canons have been used in an attempt to refill the spent fuel pool in the damaged Unit 4 at the Fukushima 1 nuclear complex:

Problems continue to abound at Japan's Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant. Helicopters have been flown in, using tons of water in an attempt to cool and control the reactors which are overheating. Water cannons have pumped out 30 tons of water to cool a sizable amount of spent-fuel near the No. 3 reactor, which has been one of the notable sources for radioactive fallout in the area. At this point, housing units for reactors Nos. 1, 2, 3 and 4 have exploded or been exposed in some way, with their radioactive cores beginning to melt down, and Nos. 5 and 6 heating up. Emergency workers in the plant are working abbreviated shifts to reduce exposure to radiation, in addition to already wearing cautionary protective gear. Yukiya Amano, chief of the United Nation's International Atomic Energy Agency, is frustrated due to the death(SIC!!!!) of information, and arrived in Japan on Thursday to run an evaluation of the plant.

I believe they meant to say "a dearth of information."

Charley Noble


17 Mar 11 - 01:30 PM (#3115811)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

999... found the sucker! Elevation of roof tops is 96m.


17 Mar 11 - 01:40 PM (#3115817)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Distance to water... very rough guesstimate at 300m to the edge of the buildings. But sommat ain't right... gotta check on...


17 Mar 11 - 01:44 PM (#3115824)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

An interactive map in the New York Times this morning shows low level radiation in wind currents reaching west coast North America from Fukushima Friday-Saturday.

The Chevrolet Volt uses transmissions made in Japan. Delivery will stop due to factory slowdowns and/or stoppages. Just one of the effects on industries outside of Japan.

Some electrical power is being restored in the reactor area, but not yet usable in fighting the Fukushima problems.

Storage of spent rods- Each Fukushima reactor has between 60-83 tons of spent rods stored next to them. The size of the pools is very large, but I haven't found size specifications.
Vermont Yankee has 690 tons of spent rods on site. Article in The Nation, March 15, "Fukushima's Spent Fuel Rods Pose Grave Danger," Christian Parenti.

Some of the proposals for restoring water (above) do not take into account the large volumes needed, and the fact that a hot environment throws off water as steam almost as fast as it is added, unless volumes added are very large. Dispersal as steam almost as soon as water was dropped by helicopter was noted by observers. The supply must not only be large but delivered rapidly and continuously until the temperature drops.

Amounts of Caesium 137 being released by exposed fuel rods not yet reported.


17 Mar 11 - 01:50 PM (#3115830)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Near as I can tell, the buildings are 74m above grade... well, when intact.


17 Mar 11 - 01:57 PM (#3115834)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

The trunamis that hit Japan ranged between 10 to 30 METERS high.


17 Mar 11 - 01:57 PM (#3115835)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Tepco hopes to have high voltage power lines restored to reactor 2 on Friday. The pumps also must be repaired and connected to power for cooling water to be delivered. NHK World TV Ustream just reported.


17 Mar 11 - 01:59 PM (#3115838)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Charly wrote a very nobel letter in response to an op ed.

below


17 Mar 11 - 02:01 PM (#3115840)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Q... yes, lots of water and continuously will help with the spent fuel. And, 999's proposal is certainly within reason as long as the pumps can handle the volume and pressure required. Small pumps could work if many were used to feed a reservoir for larger pumps. The configuation of the system would depend on waht is available. Certainly an idea worthy of putting a team on ASAP.

As for the reactors... such a plan seems unlikely to me off the top of my head. It might even be a bad idea if it can't be done on an "even" basis, ie, cool one side and cause a stress differential. But, I am not a makeanickel engineer.


17 Mar 11 - 02:07 PM (#3115844)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Ebbie

"The trunamis that hit Japan ranged between 10 to 30 METERS high." Donuel

Really? 90 meters? I have found no estimates above 40 FEET.


17 Mar 11 - 02:13 PM (#3115847)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Ebbie
My source is the Time Magazine editor.
He also said that he was at Phuket when the tsunami struck there.
That particular tsunami was only 1/3 as strong as the ones that hit Japan.


17 Mar 11 - 02:13 PM (#3115849)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

When water becomes steam, it expands to 1600 times its own volume.

Looks like they will have electricity back soon.


Gnu,

Thank you.


17 Mar 11 - 02:15 PM (#3115853)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

The grade and length of the land leading up to a beach is respondsible for wide variations of wave heights generated by a common ocean floor uplifting event.


17 Mar 11 - 02:21 PM (#3115860)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Dunping water on something 3 or 4 thosuands degree hpot will usually just instantly turn that water to steam

If one actually could somehow emerse the containment vessel or cooling ponds with water... the sudden shock to the hot hot metal and concrete containment structures would cause them to crack wide open.

Also you can;t put water into a containment vessel if it is full of 1000 lbs per square inces of pressure with a 500 lbs pressure hose.

You have to take away the pressure, Problem is that valves can get stuck closed when pressure is high.

so many problems

Do you really thing ANY pipes are intact after the 4 huge explosions that tore up the containment buildings?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_N-wNFSGyQ

yeah right, the pipes are just fine.


17 Mar 11 - 02:29 PM (#3115865)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Hmmm... if the pipes are all blown to hell, why are they not leaking?

Valves can get stuck when the pressure is high... I did not know that. Can you explain it for me?


17 Mar 11 - 03:22 PM (#3115903)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Depends on type of valve. Pressure seal valves and others also become stuck at high temperatures.


17 Mar 11 - 03:52 PM (#3115929)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Prof. Michio Kaku (Physics of the Future) is recommending the Chernobyl solution- bury and cement in the reactors. He says it is too late and too little to try to correct the failures. (MSNBC)

Water spray by helicopter will be done again on Friday (Tokyo time)

Lineups for food and fuel in Tokyo. Demand greater than supply.


17 Mar 11 - 04:14 PM (#3115942)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

"Depends on type of valve."

Okay... which? Ball... butterfly...

I can understand heat but I was asking about the pressure as per the post above.


17 Mar 11 - 04:19 PM (#3115946)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

3Mile Island accidnt began with a stuck valve


17 Mar 11 - 04:26 PM (#3115958)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

gnu, wut is a valve?


17 Mar 11 - 04:37 PM (#3115967)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Okay... "pressure seal valves"... you mean a check valve? Doesn't seem likely you mean a check valve as they would only seal against unwanted revesre flow.

I realize we are all laymen here but I am am having a hard time following the logic at times. If youse are having a hard time following my logic, please cite me and edify me or at least question me. Sometimes, I think off the top of my head... I throw ideas out for the hell of it.

Perhaps it's useless and only serves for banter while we await what we all hope will be resolution of a very serious situation which may get to "criticality" (the word they have been using on NHK). The key point is... it is not critical yet. The sky has NOT fallen and is NOT falling... it's lookin like storm clouds movin in but the wind hasn't picked up enough to blow all hopes away.


17 Mar 11 - 04:39 PM (#3115970)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

"gnu, wut is a valve?"

Who's on second?


17 Mar 11 - 05:05 PM (#3115999)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

I want NAMES !!!

Who the hell said the sky is falling?
Who said this is the end of the world?
Who said I am scared senseless?
Who said I just wet myself? ;*(




Just who does not feel that these events are grim just as they are?
I do. I believe others do as well.

Some of what is written here are facts, some are feeling, some are hopes and some are fears. I would not care to limit or define expression but I do take umbrege with characterizations such as "you people who cry the sky is falling...etc

Me thinks you are too busy to have read each and every post in the thread and that you jump in with a pre determined attitude. Furthermore you seem to have an certain expectation of other people's motivation, understanding and attitude, as though having an engineering degree is certification that only you have the rational key to events past present and future. Smug in the knowledge others do not know what they are talking about, you might think there really could be nothing to learn or even extrapolate from such frightened laymen and lay abouts.

Or maybe you just like being an insulting ass hole now and then, like the rest of us when we get fed up by events, pervs and bullies in real life..

I contend within this thread there are accurate representations with the little data that is released. I believe it is valuable to know what are lies and what is true. While I am not angry I am fiesty about stereotyping.

In the nuclear industry there are 5 trillion dollars worth of reasons to lie to the population. Every preceding nuclear accident have also begun with silence, delay and lies.

I believe the empathy for the victims to be is valid reason enough to be concerned. I also believe I welcome any and all gnu input gnu may have in the spirit of discovery and help.


17 Mar 11 - 05:18 PM (#3116011)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Furthermore I hate people who hate
And people who characterize other people are just like..just like..

hmmm


never mind


17 Mar 11 - 05:19 PM (#3116014)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

That's pretty rich. Smug? Aloof as an engineer? Insulting asshole?

Fuck off. If you would talk sense instead of... oh nevermind. Have fun. Just try to take yer meds on time.

I shant engage in any more discussion... just keep up with the news. The ACTUAL news. The REAL situation as it EXISTS.


17 Mar 11 - 05:33 PM (#3116022)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Who is on second
What
what is on second
Whos on third
no, I don't know's on third

I don't give a damn is left feild.


17 Mar 11 - 05:35 PM (#3116027)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

High pressure causes deformation. High temperature causes high pressure. High temperature causes deformation.
Dearth of detail makes it impossible to be sure of details of construction, or of stresses resulting from temperature and/or pressure.


17 Mar 11 - 05:42 PM (#3116031)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

I've noted how the concrete cooling pool is an integral part of the poured concrete which is part of and adjacent to the steel containment vessel. It looks likethe heat of both vessel and pool concentrates at particular points between them both.

Looking at that just reeks of BAD IDEA on top of the fact they are even in the same building.


17 Mar 11 - 06:11 PM (#3116049)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

have the owners of this fiasco even posted maps of their plants so other engineers can offer advice

And here..it looks like lots of openings to the sea..perhaps clutter underneath water but shallow boats could make it a bit of a ways to larger ones further out http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1367208/Japan-tsunami-earthquake-Mayor-claims-people-abandoned.html

Are they trying to mobilize fishermen? Tourist boats? Surely they could get people who could walk if rubble was somewhat cleared out by boat. mg


17 Mar 11 - 06:14 PM (#3116051)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Are you thinking fireboats? They can spray hundreds of feet.


17 Mar 11 - 06:17 PM (#3116054)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Charely Noble posted links to their site. There are stylized designs but nothing like blueprints. His other link to nuclear watch has the best detailed floor plans and complete history of repairs that the company tried to cover up and were later fined.

Things like patching the crack steel reactor vessel with welded patches were done instead of replacement


17 Mar 11 - 06:21 PM (#3116055)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Looking at a coastal map, four nuclear complexes are not far apart.

Onagawa nuclear complex is located almost due west of the epicenter of the quake. An emergency was reported here on Sunday, but radioactivity levels are normal.

Fukushima Daiichi complex, with its six reactors, is SSW of Onagawa; it is the one seriously damaged and the subject of the emergency measures.

Seven miles south of Daiichi is the Daini complex, where cooling has failed at three reactors. Later report available?

Still farther south on the coast is the Tokai complex, where a cooling pump failure was reported Sunday, but a backup was working.

Little has been reported except for the Daiichi reactors- Seemingly damage was minor at the other three complexes, all along the same stretch of coastline near Sendai. I don't know the number of reactors at each complex.

The map with locations of the reactor complexes is from the New York Times, found by googling fukushima nuclear map japan.


17 Mar 11 - 06:41 PM (#3116072)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Electric power is now in place ready for use. The next job is to see what can be powered up and what repairs can be done to restore water cirulation pumps.


17 Mar 11 - 07:31 PM (#3116101)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

There is supposed to be a major electrical cable operational at the Fukushima 1 nuclear complex now. It's unclear whether any of the pumps can be reactivated. However, the US is in the process of transporting several large pumps from its base in Yokohama. Why the Japanese haven't done this already themselves is a mystery to me. Trying to deal with the evolving situation with helicopters dropping water, water cannons and fire trucks is clearly ineffectual. I don't think fireboats would be much of an improvement.

We certainly have no idea what the piping situation is in units 1, 2, 3, and 4 after the fires and explosions. But as one expert suggested today, they should have put fire hoses into the spent fuel pools days ago to restore their levels. It is another tragic human blunder that the spent fuel pools didn't receive more attention in the earlier stages of this accident.

It's my understanding that the tsunami protective wall for Fukushima 1 nuclear complex was about 25 feet tall, and the tsunami exceeded that by 5 or 6 feet, knocking out the back-up generators located in the basements of the reactor buildings. This will be remembered (hopefully) as two more human design failures at this complex.

The situation of the Japanese who are hunkered down in what's left of their homes between the 12 and 19 mile zones appears dire to me. They must be evacuated somehow. At this point they're not even supplied with food and water and this zone is likely to be subject to plumes of high levels of radiation for an extended period of time.

Charley Noble


17 Mar 11 - 07:51 PM (#3116121)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

they are talking about 1 portable diesel generator now being set up by engineers...what is going on? Why does it take days to set up a generator? Maybe they mean connections are broken and there is some problem there.

Why are they talking of one? Why not 30? It does not sound like we are talking about huge bits of equipment if they are still relying on the firetrucks.

They need to admit certain amounts of incompetence and defer to other people is all I can think of. mg


17 Mar 11 - 08:55 PM (#3116160)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Connecting of electrical cables hampered by radioactivity. Today (Friday in Japan) they will try to connect up number 2. Power expected to resume at 1 and 2 today.

Currently vapors rising from numbers 2 and 4 reactors. A panel blown out at no. 2 Thursday night.
(Water in storage pools should be 10 meters deep).
Water spraying will resume to no. 1 and 3 today when the government says it is safe. Some water remains at no. 4, it and no. 3 conditions most urgent.

Radiation is alpha to gamma, the steel plates on helicopters stop the gamma.
Neutron rays only released when there is "criticality," and that level not reached- not generated here.

The above from news releases by Tepco engineers a few minutes ago; not wholly coherent as I had trouble understanding the translation.

Defer to other people"- like the posters here?


17 Mar 11 - 09:09 PM (#3116162)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Who was talking about portable generators? Nothing on the latest Tepco-government releases about that. Heavy ones offered by U. S. Navy, but nothing more on that.
Connecting of electrical cables going on now.

Some water seems to remain in no. 4 pool, but evaporating, according to Tepco video.


17 Mar 11 - 09:23 PM (#3116167)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

More generators are better at this point. It may not be enough but why not keep trying.

I hope they don't run out of volunteers but given the culture in Japan I doubt that they will.

Who's doing the film script as we post? There's enough drama here to educate generations of survivors.

Charley Noble


18 Mar 11 - 07:31 AM (#3116346)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

There seems now to be a plan to run a hose in 2 km from the nuclear complex. That seems to be a simple and more effective plan than fire trucks, water cannons, and helicopters dropping water. Why on earth didn't they do that earlier?

There also appears to be a hook-up with a new electrical cable to Unit 3 to run pumps. I'm hoping for an update on that but worried whether the pumps and the plumbing system will function after all the damage from the hydrogen explosions.

It's difficult to keep score at this point of what happened where and when. I'll try to do that later today unless someone else wants to give it a try.

I need to go to a business meeting now.

Charley Noble


18 Mar 11 - 11:08 AM (#3116452)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

NHK.... Now at Level 5 (= Three Mile). Still dropping and pumping water (50 tonnes on reactor 3 but it was vapourizing). Power by Saturday. If they can't cool, they are gonna bury with sand and crete. They are going to (???) monitor temps.

6900 dead, 10,316 missing. Manpower and medical supplies at hospitals are short.


18 Mar 11 - 11:11 AM (#3116454)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL

And with a lack of parts some automotive plants in the US are shutting down.


18 Mar 11 - 11:17 AM (#3116455)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

are they deciding that one thing will not work before they even start preparing for something else? Are they stockpiling this sand and cement, which if it is a last case option they should have done on day one, or are they going to wait if options x y and z do not work to even assemble the materials? mg


18 Mar 11 - 11:31 AM (#3116461)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6

First and foremost the people of Japan continue to be in my hopes and prayers.

In regards to Sinsull's statemnt ... "And with a lack of parts some automotive plants in the US are shutting down. " .... and wait until car's require parts for repairs ... and this just not pertain to Japanese cars ... many domestic models use part from Japan.

biLL


18 Mar 11 - 11:35 AM (#3116462)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6

According to the BBC Japan has now just raised the alert level to 7.

biLL


18 Mar 11 - 11:49 AM (#3116472)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

BBC... Japan has raised the alert level at its quake-damaged nuclear plant from four to five on a seven-point international scale of atomic incidents.


18 Mar 11 - 11:52 AM (#3116474)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

They are going to try to get power to #2 through #1. Hmmmmmmmm


18 Mar 11 - 12:30 PM (#3116493)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

"The heat... risen 3%... Radioactive substances are being emitted to outside of the plant... raising to Level 5..." misister.

Translation was sketchy and I listened to it twice. AND, if they are only going to measure temps Saturday???

It's difficult to get a true picture as they use the words plant, reactor, building and others in a confusing manner. Now I don't know if steam was coming off the #3 reactor or the spent fuel pool(s) in #3/#4. or all of them.


18 Mar 11 - 12:33 PM (#3116496)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Just saw another guy... cabinet secretary... steam was observed after spraying water in a building so it got to the pool.

Still kinda sketchy but a bit more precise.


18 Mar 11 - 12:42 PM (#3116499)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

UPDATE ON FUKUSHIMA-1 NUCLEAR MELTDOWN

I just re-checked the Union of Concerned Scientists website and they have an excellent explanation which seems to explain why the hydrogen explosions occurred in the upper portions of the reactor buildings' secondary containment structure: click here for report!

There's also an improved graphic that I find useful for understanding the design of the reactor building and its major components.

In summary, when the back-up pumps failed the temperature began to increase within the reactor vessel and reached a point where hydrogen gas was being produced. At a certain point (at an elevated pressure) the engineers attempted to vent the hydrogen gas to the outside. Evidently before they did that the seals above the reactor vessel began to leak hydrogen gas into the secondary containment structure, which subsequently ignited and exploded (think leaky head gasket).

This type of problem was first identified for this kind of reactor design from tests taken back in the 1970's at a nuclear reactor in Brunswick, North Carolina. It's unclear what if anything the Nuclear Regulatory Commission did with these test results. Damn!

Charley Noble


18 Mar 11 - 12:59 PM (#3116508)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

WHAT? They didn't know the max working pressure? That just fuckin floors me!!!

And they are still in charge... scarey indeed.


18 Mar 11 - 01:11 PM (#3116519)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

According to the BBC today:

1630: Chile and the US have signed a nuclear energy agreement despite the ongoing situation at Japan's Fukushima nuclear power plant. Chile is also on the Pacific Ring of Fire and has its share of powerful earthquakes.


18 Mar 11 - 01:16 PM (#3116524)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

I read one report that said they could not get close enough to get radiation readings so they took them from a moving car. Do they not have robots that could be sent closer?

And are there hydraulic engineers to be heard from? Pictures do not look like plant is far from sea..as in right on seacoast..say it is 2 miles..I think I read 2 KM or 1.6 miles..but it looks closer on pictures...anyway, we pipe water all the time. If they need to store it closer, bomb a crater and make a big pond. Do I have to go over there and take over?

And now talk of cementing the whole thing. What are issues involved in that? Do you want to bet they don't have a stockpile of cement on hand even though they have had a week to assemble it, as though it should not have been on hand in the first place.

Do they have water to mix in concrete? Are they assembling that? Can seawater be used in cement? I doubt it but maybe.

The whole world needs to chime in here with suggestions and shock. THis is not merely an act of nature. An act of nature would have been a 20 point earthquake. We have been told to expect 9s forever and ever. It is not a surprise.

It is an act of major governmental and industrial incompetence, and great lies and dishonesty, as reports coming out (Reuters) are showing.   mg


18 Mar 11 - 01:59 PM (#3116542)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

mg-

There are large gaps in this narrative, some because of the reports we receive, some because certain options weren't even considered in the early stages of this continuing disaster. We won't know what exactly happened till years from now, if then.

Gnu-

Glad you read through the Union of Concerned Scientists update (above link). That is one of the conclusions. One wonders if there was any attempt by the Japanese to address this evident problem, assuming they were even informed.

The reactor units at Fukushima-2 nuclear complex are newer models and maybe that's why they were able to bring them back to cold shutdown without a hydrogen explosion under similar conditions. Making sense out of this evolving situation is a therapeutic exercises I indulge in; makes me think I have control over chaos. Whatever!!!

Charley Noble


18 Mar 11 - 02:05 PM (#3116545)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

I might have to send Glorious Leader Kim over there. Between him and the Somali Pirates I think we will get her done. I think our universities here, including one I work for, have been noticeably quiet in terms of suggestions etc. Perhaps they are quietly corresponding..I imagine they are..but some suggestions need to be made public.

Glorious Leader not Kim said they are considering moving people from the tsunami hit areas..old people who are dying of cold, lack of medicine, lack of food, into non-hit areas. Now there is a thought. mg


18 Mar 11 - 02:12 PM (#3116552)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Other nuclear complexes on Sendai coast-

All reactors at Onagawa, Daini and Tokai nuclear complexes now on cold shutdown.
A fire in the turbine bldg. at Onagawa was extinguished.
Daini was designed to withstand tsunamai of 6.51 meters; the level reached was 7 meters. Flooding to pump rooms at 1, 2 and 4 reactors.
Tokai reactors on cold shutdown.

Control is slowly being re-establishd at Daiichi complex; the no. 4 reactor is still not controlled.

The Tepco engineers and workers seem to be doing their best to lessen the dangers, and deserve our thanks for their efforts. Two workers have died and several are in hospital, condition not announced.


18 Mar 11 - 02:33 PM (#3116564)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Q... "...and deserve our thanks for their efforts."

Indeed they do.


18 Mar 11 - 02:50 PM (#3116576)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Q-

"Daini was designed to withstand tsunamai of 6.51 meters; the level reached was 7 meters."

It's hard to believe that a tsuanmi that close to design specs could do so much damage. But they should be able to measure what level the tsunami reached with reasonable accuracy.

Of course the entire coast is said to have sunk a bit during the earthquake as well.

Charley Noble


18 Mar 11 - 03:38 PM (#3116602)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Well, if you pour billions of litres of water over a wall for a while it's gonna add up. Might even get in the doors. Maybe the next time they will make the buildings waterproof... or move the generators up in elevation.

They didn't even provide a seal for the buildings!! WTF? Now, I have said I have problems with politicians and accountants pinching pennies but IF this design ommission was caused by skinflints, the engineers who accepted their directives were definitely NOT doing their jobs. This is one of those cases when the engineers have no way out of the blame they deserve.

I know I could go to engineer hell for saying that publically (seriously) but it's the truth.


18 Mar 11 - 03:51 PM (#3116612)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

That is 20 feet. We are told all the time here to expect 60 feet on the other side of the ocean. What df's. And it depends on whether it is gently rising like filling a bathtub, or a smash of water that would hit a wall and go over it, or a huge wave of debris smashing. mg


18 Mar 11 - 03:57 PM (#3116616)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Charlie- that was at Daini, design 6.51 meters, water reached 7 meters. Damage minimal, some flooding to pump rooms as I noted. Cold shutdown carried out without problems.
----------------------

Seal for buildings, etc, why not hang them from a sky hook? Get real!


18 Mar 11 - 04:17 PM (#3116634)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Q... huh? You don't think a building can be made watertight? PC chip manufactures build airtight buildings. It ain't rocket science.


18 Mar 11 - 04:33 PM (#3116641)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Reason for increase to level 5 on scale-

"The provisional evaluation stands at level 5 for the No. 1, No. 2 and No. 3 reactors, as their cores are believed to have partially melted and radiation leaks continue, Japan's nuclear safety agency said.
"The agency set the level at 3 for the plant's No. 4 reactor, where an overheating spent fuel pool is also posing risks, and two reactors at the power plant that were undergoing maintenance when the quake struck."
Japan Times, Sat. 19, 2011, "Workers Battle Against Time."

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20110319a1.html

Two diagrams with the article show routing of reconstructed power cables from the switching station.

I had seen some statements about possible meltdown at three reactors; I had discounted them because of relatively low levels of radiation outside of the plant. Looks like there is still some question, but the paper indicates possible partial meltdown.


18 Mar 11 - 05:09 PM (#3116661)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

NHK... most of the motors and switchboards were damaged by the tsunami waters.


18 Mar 11 - 05:21 PM (#3116671)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

submarines can be made watertight.

Don't they have tanker trucks there for water? Or whatever...lots of fire trucks standing by in a picture but I don't see tanker trucks. Do they go to the sea and fill from there? WHich is OK..

What about provisions for gas..probably not great in an explosion.

Are there signs of concrete trucks being brought in? Loads of sand? When do they plan to start stockpiling? Or have they? mg


18 Mar 11 - 05:26 PM (#3116676)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

It won't take a lot of sand and crete to begin the process of encasement. And, we are talking days, not hours, as has been the case from the start. It's not like a grenade pin was pulled... more like a time bomb was set ticking. (Sorry for that analogy but that's the situation.)


18 Mar 11 - 05:35 PM (#3116679)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

And another new one reported by the BBC:

2110: AP reports that Greece is urging Turkey to halt plans to build a nuclear power plant. Turkey's first such plant is planned for Akkuyu, in the south, under a deal with Russia. Both Greece and Turkey are earthquake-prone.

The interesting thing about that is that Turkey had previously been planning a reactor at Sinop, on the Black Sea. (There was a sizable local protest about it when I was there a few years ago). Looks like the Russians gave Turkey an incentive to move it into somebody else's backyard. I wonder why?


18 Mar 11 - 10:22 PM (#3116780)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

What are the problems with encasement? Long-term radiation in the area I believe I read. Sounds better than some of the alternatives. mg


19 Mar 11 - 12:12 AM (#3116810)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

The "seals" I was talking about are for the removable lid of the reactor primary containment, and there were seals. They just weren't designed well enough, as shown by the 1970's test in Brunswick, North Carolina, and leaked at a pressure reading before workers would normally vent out hydrogen directly out of the containment. For clarity, please read what the Union of Concerned Scientists had to say this morning. And yes, it's like a leaky head gasket in a forty year old car. The question is whether the seals were upgraded by the Japanese after the North Carolina test. Or if they were upgraded, did they still fail. What we do know is that there were hydrogen explosions in units 1 and 3, which blew out the upper walls and roof of the containment buildings. Unit 4 was decimated evidently from a hydrogen explosion from its spent fuel pool. Unit 2 evidently has an internal explosion which cracked the primary containment of its reactor but the reactor building looks reasonably intact. I think I'm keeping the score correctly but I'm no longer entirely sure.

The lid of the primary containment has to be "removable" so that the fuel rods can be periodically moved in and out of the reactor vessel, in case anyone is wondering why there is a lid at all.

I haven't seen any update on the results of power being restored on site at Fukushima 1 nuclear complex. That's a biggy.

Charley Noble, back from a hard evening's work at the Sidedoor Coffeehouse.


19 Mar 11 - 05:39 AM (#3116885)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

That's the biggest selling point for the CANDU... no lid. It can be refueled without shuting it down and it's just plain safer in shutting down. Not that that has anything to do with this discussion. It would just be a good thing if "the world" spent the extra money and used this design in lieu of the other designs.


19 Mar 11 - 06:13 AM (#3116896)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

NHK... Temps of #1,2,3,4 less than 100C. 7 hours of spraying # 3 building today. Getting ready to spray #4 building. Power to be connected to #2 soon, then to #4. #6 is up and running without generator. # 5 is also powered without generator and pump is operational (not clear if it is fully operational). They "believe" the spray is getting to the pool but they just don't know. The pumper vehicles are unmanned due to high radiation. The armed pumper truck (closest) battery died but the pump truck connected to it has enough pressure to feed it.

I wonder if they have any cranes in Japan? Surely they could mount a hose and deliver water more efficiently? If they can't get workers to these unmanned vehicles won't ALL the vehicles eventually go u/s?

In two prefectures milk and spinach are not fit for consumption. Radiation levels are up and down but, from what I could gleen, they are seriously high. The armed pumper truck battery died but the pump truck connected to it has enough pressure to feed it.


19 Mar 11 - 06:21 AM (#3116906)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

They have to wash and inspect the pumps in #1,2,4 before they can energize.

44 engines from Tokyo fire department on site. More coming from elsewhere.


19 Mar 11 - 07:05 AM (#3116912)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

I wonder if they have any cranes in Japan?

Fancy being a tower crane operator in a glass cab 100 feet up in a cloud of radioactive steam?


19 Mar 11 - 07:10 AM (#3116914)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

That kinda crane wouldn't work.


19 Mar 11 - 09:42 AM (#3116951)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Chernobyl took 30,000 tons of concrete to encase and repairs after it continues to crack.

The Uranium is still burning underground and where water comes close to it and peroclates back to the surface you can have one little sq. foot area of very deadly radiation while 6 feet away it is nominal.

The half ife of some of the radioactivity is half the age of the universe while Plutonium is only 25,000 years.

Japan faces the real consequence of being cut in to in terms of a death zonem but worse yet is that the sea will transmit radioactivity with ferocious certainty as much as the wind.

What will it take for a lasting reevaluation of the risks and costs outweighing the benefit? A meltdown in France?


19 Mar 11 - 09:55 AM (#3116953)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6

Right on Donuel.

The current meltdown in Japan is becoming sadly 'old news' now ... Our attention will be diverted away to other events in the world by the commercial news media. The damage to Japan from the meltdown will continue, eating away making this region a complete toxic wasteland affecting the environment and humanity for years to come.

biLL


19 Mar 11 - 10:16 AM (#3116959)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

biLL, Rhetoricly we say a meltdown will continue but the actual dropping of melting uranium into the ground at the shore of the sea has not yet happened as far as we are told. But scientists continueo say the process has begun but as long as workers can continue to try and mitigate the situation there is still hope that it can be contained sometime with the next 2 months to a point where it will not start boring into the sand and rocks.


19 Mar 11 - 10:23 AM (#3116962)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

If everything does not get worse than it is today in Fukushima, clean up will take 12 to 15 years for the plant and 25 years for the cesium 137 contaminated soils as far as 50 miles away.


19 Mar 11 - 11:21 AM (#3116989)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Jakarta Globe...

Tainted milk was found in Fukushima prefecture while contaminated spinach was discovered in neighbouring Ibaraki prefecture, chief government spokesman Yukio Edano told reporters.

The milk was found more than 30 kilometres (20 miles) from the plant, beyond a government exclusion zone.

But Edano urged consumers to remain calm, saying that even if a person were to drink the contaminated milk for a year, the radiation level would be the equivalent of one CT hospital scan.

"The government will do its utmost... to avoid health hazards and to resolve this problem," he said.

Abnormal levels of radioactive iodine were found in the water supply in Tokyo and several prefectures near the power plant, a science ministry official said.

Traces of radioactive caesium were also found in tap water in Tochigi and Gunma prefectures, but the levels of both elements were well below the legal limit, the official said.


19 Mar 11 - 11:23 AM (#3116990)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

There may be some progress in mitigating the fuel meltdown and risk of a fuel fire at some of the reactors at the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex, after watching the morning news on CNN and NSNBC but it's really hard to judge without having a systematic review, reactor by reactor, and no one is doing that. It's possible that no one is in position to do that.

I expect that even when electricity is available on-site, little of the machinery at reactors 1, 2, 3, and 4, will be functional after being damaged by explosions, irradiated, and sprayed with salt water. But electricity would be very useful for powering new external pumps, and new monitoring equipment. Evidently full power has been restored to reactors 5 and 6 which are at the other end of the complex.

I certainly agree that even if there is no further damage (which seems unlikely to me) it will be ten years or more before the radiation damage at the site and in the downwind area is mitigated. Some areas may need to be permanently classified as a "dead zone."

In addition to radioactive iodide, cesium, plutonium, there are dozens of radioactive isotopes that could be ejected in a smoke plume from the plant complex if there were additional fires, and most of them are harmful to life for longer than 10,000 years.

Charley Noble


19 Mar 11 - 11:58 AM (#3117010)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

5 and 6 are fine. 1 and 2 may be fine if they can get the pumps and switchgear in service fast enough. 3 and 4 pools may be stabilized. But 3 and 4 reactors... I saw a video on NHK and it's worth a boo. A prof from a university was commenting on the video and pointed to the damage of the 3 reactor. No assessment of 4 reactor is available. It's difficult to make out on the small screen but it looks bad. NHK cycles these videos quite often.


19 Mar 11 - 12:05 PM (#3117012)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

That video is up again


19 Mar 11 - 12:06 PM (#3117013)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

I certainly agree that even if there is no further damage (which seems unlikely to me) it will be ten years or more before the radiation damage at the site and in the downwind area is mitigated. Some areas may need to be permanently classified as a "dead zone."

That depends not just on WHAT has been emitted but also on HOW MUCH of it there is. It doesn't look from what I've read that the emissions to date require measures anywhere near that drastic.


19 Mar 11 - 12:09 PM (#3117014)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

More clear this time... the reactor itself is not damaged... but you can see the exterior of it.


19 Mar 11 - 01:10 PM (#3117049)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Jack-

"That depends not just on WHAT has been emitted but also on HOW MUCH of it there is."

I entirely agree but I am far more pessimistic than you, perhaps, about what they will eventually be reporting.

Damage assessment of the reactor building via video can detect the most obvious damage, but not cracks in the primary containment or within the spent fuel pools that are still shielded from view.

Charley Noble


19 Mar 11 - 01:15 PM (#3117051)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

Would they be shielded from view from an areal ? photo or are they covered? Are there not drones being sent up with cameras? mg


19 Mar 11 - 01:19 PM (#3117052)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Aerial video is available. NHK has had some.


19 Mar 11 - 01:20 PM (#3117053)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Stringsinger

Advocating nuclear energy is a form of contemporary insanity. There is only one real solution to the problem of energy, research and development on alternative non-destructive methods, solar, wind, and science that helps rather than destroys mankind.

Also, cutting down on the use of energy rather than cutting into budgets and crying poor when it comes to a meaningless "deficit".

Earthquakes and tsunamis, New Zealand, Banda Ace, Haiti, and now Japan should be a marker for the global warming deniers. The water table rises, the earth shakes and
there are those who advocate for new nuclear plants especially on fault lines?
Crazy, crazy and more crazy. Obama now included.


19 Mar 11 - 01:25 PM (#3117056)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

Earthquakes and tsunamis, New Zealand, Banda Ace, Haiti, and now Japan should be a marker for the global warming deniers

Linking earthquakes to global warming is a few steps beyond credibility I am afraid.


19 Mar 11 - 01:43 PM (#3117077)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

From Japan Times-
Three experts, from Northwestern Univ.(3), Franciscan Univ.(2), and Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency(1), say it is too early to consider burying the reactors.
(1) Not a realistic option at this time. In the future, after the radiation has cooled, as part of long term strategy.
(2) Structures that confine the radioactivity could be damaged by dumping of sand and other matterials. Such sand dumps were part of the containment at Chernobyl. Fukushima is different, the reactors are surrounded by multiple barriers designed to contain radiation from the reactor cores. If a heavy dumping cracked the inner vessels and exposed the reactor cores, "that would be absurdity." Dr. Alex Sich, nuclear engineer, is an expert on Chernobyl.
(3) Other risks focus on the spent fuel rods. While pouring tons of sand on the rods would block radiation from escaping, it wouls also insulate them and make them heat up faster. The heat could decompose the concrete floor, allowing the rods to fall through, which could complicate efforts to contain the radiation, said Elmer Lewis of Northwestern (he has consulted on reactor issues with U. S. National Labs.
(2) Spraying of dust-supressing materials that was done at Chernobyl is recommended by Sich. This in combination with sprayers to tamp down the dust.
(3)Lewis said the time to entomb the reactors with concrete might come when the radioactive materials have cooled.


19 Mar 11 - 01:54 PM (#3117086)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

The comtaminated milk and spinach were found near the Fukushima plant. The levels not inmmediately pose a risk to human health.--

Limits and guidelines have been set by U. S., Japanese, and other agencies. We do not know what long-term exposure to low levels does- too few incidents on which to base data (as if we would want more).


19 Mar 11 - 02:00 PM (#3117092)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Thanks for that Q. Good quotes.

Peter... don't discard the global warming/earthquake hypothesis out of hand. Although it seems likely that global warming would have an insignificant influence the fact remains that it is possible.

Raise the ocean level a mm and cause an earthquake??? Not likely. But it's the final straw that breaks the camel's back. No?


19 Mar 11 - 02:20 PM (#3117103)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

No. Movement of tectonic plates is the cause of disastrous earth movements. These operate regardless of human activity.
Avoid by living on the Canadian shield or similar relatively stabile part of the globe. Of course the Canadian choice goes along with higher probability of freezing to death in our dark and drear winters.


19 Mar 11 - 06:13 PM (#3117219)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

NHK... one of the guys that went in today on the "spray team" was just on video... he said that they were able to direct the spray in the right spot and radiation levels went to zero.

I will watch it again as these broadcasts cycle frequently but that is what I heard the translator say.


19 Mar 11 - 08:03 PM (#3117276)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Critics of the Fukishima complex pointed out two possible design flaws, and Nishiyama of the nuclear safety committee agreed.
1. Provision for strong earthquake but no provision for tsunami waves. This possibility was considered and provisions made at some other reactor complexes.
(See previous post. At Daini complex, provision was made. The tsunami wave was a little higher, but wet conditions easily corrected).
2. Emergency power generators not placed inside the building complex, and were damaged as a result- apparently they were inside at some other reactor complexes.

Hard to keep one eye on Japan, one on Libya and a third eye on the NCAA basketball tournament. Some good games!


19 Mar 11 - 08:34 PM (#3117290)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/79704.html

From Japan.

Something else I don't get. They just spent 13 hours or so successfully spraying water on one of the reactors..by Tokyo Fire Department.

They are "shortly" going to be spraying water on another one by the Ministry of Defense or something...Can't they spray water on two reactors at once? It is a shortage of water? Sea is very close by..

Why two agencies?

and yes it is my business..it is everyone's business how this is handled..I am being subtly radiated as we speak and I am hopeful and even confident that it now seems to be under control and even worst case scenario would not bombard me too much..but there are economic impacts, fishery considerations, tourism, agriculture..it is all serious so yes it is our business. mg


19 Mar 11 - 10:53 PM (#3117353)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: J-boy

Some real March Madness indeed, Q.


20 Mar 11 - 11:57 AM (#3117571)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

There was an explosion at #1 just after the earthquake? I missed that. How did I miss that?


20 Mar 11 - 01:45 PM (#3117620)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Japanese as a whole are a calm, reticent people. Their seemingly low-key comments on the on-going problems at the Fukushima complex is an example. Tepco and the government have been slow in providing information on the results of their corrective measures and there has been little censure from the Japanese press and public.

Included is the lack of sky is falling reaction to the tsunami's destruction. Providing shelter, rebuilding infrastructure to get supplies distributed, a start on building temporary housing, acceptance of rolling blackouts to save energy and other examples of their effective response are not loudly trumpeted.

We in North America are much more prone to knee-jerk reaction.

mg, firetrucks.
Realizing that the volunteer response by fire crews was causing possible life-shortening effects, they devised a relay system. Seawater is pumped to a relay 'truck', from which a hose is extended to the actual pumper. This removes the operator to a place outside the danger of strong radiation effects. More will be set up as needed. A diagram appeared in the Japan Times.
Except for the first day, when conditions were extremely uncertain, and workers were exposed, care has been taken to prevent serious exposure to radioactive materials.

The reticence to communicate does make it very difficult for anyone not involved in the corrective measures to evaluate what is being done and to be informed on the possible dangers if the corrective measures are inadequate.

I think all of us would like more information than we are getting.


20 Mar 11 - 02:53 PM (#3117661)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

"We in North America are much more prone to knee-jerk reaction."

Well, if just one Lt. Military Engineer from the US Navy had been put ashore early on you can bet your bottom dollar that the electrical feed to the control room would have been in place before the 1.5km of power feed made it to #2 yesterday. I don't think they are "knee-jerk" enough. (Sorry to interpret/twist your words in such manner but it just seemed to fit.)

For those who may say that's 20/20 hindsight I say nay nay big time. This simple logistic fuckup is inane.


20 Mar 11 - 03:13 PM (#3117674)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

gnu- that is nonsense.
Directing flow through high power cables (which came from inland plants to the SW of Tokyo) through areas damaged by earthquake and tsunami took crews and heavy equipment several days- as it would if similar conditions obtained in the U. S. or Canada.

Power grids service large areas and needs of all must be considered.
Eastern Canada is connected to the American grid. See map of U. S. grid with connections to Canada-
http://www.npr.org/templates/story.php?storyId=110997398

A power grid map of Japan is also on the internet.


20 Mar 11 - 03:23 PM (#3117686)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Japan's power grid and discussion of problems as a result of the earthquake-tsunami-

http://www.ikimap.com/map/04YF


20 Mar 11 - 03:33 PM (#3117694)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

Well, if just one Lt. Military Engineer from the US Navy had been put ashore early on you can bet your bottom dollar that the electrical feed to the control room would have been in place before the 1.5km of power feed made it to #2 yesterday. I don't think they are "knee-jerk" enough.

Well, as it stands, the US Navy pulled back it's fleet at the first sign of radiation and we all remember Katrina when it comes to response to natural disasters so a bit of perspective would be in order here.


20 Mar 11 - 04:33 PM (#3117740)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Q... "gnu- that is nonsense."

Nonsense? They could not get a feed to the control room in place and ready to connect to the new power feed before the new power feed was in place? THAT is nonsense. Why would you sit around with yer thumb up yer arse while the 1.5km feed was being put in place? It makes NO sense whatsoever.


20 Mar 11 - 06:20 PM (#3117796)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

gnu, obviously you are unfamiliar with the scale of high voltage electrical grids and time needed for their repair. Because of quake damage, high voltage power cables were reconstructed from many kilometers distant from Fukushima. Heavy equipment and many electrical grid workers were involved over several days.
Pumps, relays, lines cannot be checked out until power is available and only when radioactivity is within safe limits. Connections must be tried one at a time carefully or subsidiary lines and/or equipment could be fried. That is why they started with lights and worked out (probably through checklist) connections one at a time.
Radioactivity danger to employees and resulting short working time limits complicates the re-installation.

U. S. Navy ships had backed off long before problems were diagnosed. In any case, there is no port at Fukushima reactor complex, and they would have to run waterproof cable through water, distance depending on offshore slope, to safe water depth.


20 Mar 11 - 09:05 PM (#3117881)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Not much hard info that I've been able to harvest today. Maybe that's good news or maybe everyone took the weekend off.

The Union of Concerned Scientists took the time to put on their website a comparison between "spent fuel pools" and "dry cask storage" for dealing with what to do with spent nuclear fuel removed from the reactor core. In summary, both storage methods are needed but there needs to be more emphasis on transferring spent fuel from the pools after it has cooled down enough in 5 or so years to dry cask storage which is far safer. Ultimately it would be best to transfer spent fuel rods to a central repository at a national level but that solution has been subject to delays for decades.

Charley Noble


21 Mar 11 - 07:41 AM (#3118142)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

What's happening at the spent fuel pool in Unit 3 at the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex is still worrisome: click here for update!

This update provides some of the best photos I've seen of the complex.

Power has been reconnected here but not switched back on (or at Unit 4) and since steam was observed coming from the spent fuel area, there was another evacuation of workers.

This is also the reactor which has plutonium mixed with uranium as a nuclear fuel:

"Japan's nuclear safety agency said pressure was rising in the most threatening reactor, No. 3, which contains highly toxic plutonium, and this may have to be released by 'venting' steam, a step taken last week that discharged low levels of radiation into the atmosphere."      

Another report I heard on the news late last night puzzled me, which stated that workers were "boring holes" in the Unit 5 and Unit 6 reactors to vent hydrogen. I thought these units were in "cold shutdown" and now had power fully restored. Anyone else see this report, or find a reference to it?

The spent fuel pool at Unit 4 also remains a continuing concern.

Charley Noble


21 Mar 11 - 08:41 AM (#3118186)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL

Some real concerns about contaminated food some of which may have actually been shipped to China or the US. Meantime 500,000 people are homeless. The evacuation area continues to increase.
Sad but true, the one good thing on Japan's horizon is the increase in construction which will provide employment as well as manufacturing jobs.


21 Mar 11 - 10:47 AM (#3118266)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Q... all I said was that they could have run a cable from the control centre main panel to the point of connection and had it ready for use when they completed the 1.5km feed rather than waiting until after the feed was in place.

As for perhaps not knowing if the exising control centre primary supply circuit was u/s until the 1.5km feed was in place, someone should have checked the continuity long before that.

Of course, I never did mess much with electricity... it's too sneaky... ya can't see it! Oh, when I was a lad, I used to drag my feet over the carpet and touch my brother's ear lobe. Same with rubbing a baloon on my hair... not much chance of that now.


21 Mar 11 - 10:55 AM (#3118272)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

NHK... Last two (3,4) to have power connections Tuesday. 2 emmitted steam from a crack in the roof, then smoke for two hours. Spraying was stopped. Spraying operation for today was cancelled.


21 Mar 11 - 10:57 AM (#3118275)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Ooops! 2 emmitted steam from a crack in the roof, then smoke from 3 for two hours.


21 Mar 11 - 12:54 PM (#3118361)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

The smoke at reactor 3 caused workers to evacuate. At 5pm it had decreased and Tepco engineers were trying to determine the cause. Temperature and pressure remained the same.

Japan Times says the focus of on-site work is to restart the separate cooling systems at each reactor to keep cores and spent rod pools from melting down.
Checking of electrical system at No. 2, the first to be reconnected to the power center from new cables, continued. Power to monitoring system and air conditioning may be completed Monday.
Prime Minister Naoto Kan said progress was slow but teady. "Now we see some hope of getting out of this crisis situation."

Two tanks arrived, tasked with clearing contaminated debris blocking access to key installations.
Smoke from No. 2- No comments yet on cause.

Digression- Economists say reconstruction in Japan estimated at $235 billion and a 5-year effort. Buffet is strong on investing in Japan.
Reconnecting and rebuilding of power grids may end rolling blackouts on Tuesday.
Car and some other plants are re-starting production as power and other needs are met.


21 Mar 11 - 01:06 PM (#3118378)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Here's an excerpt from the Union of Concerned Scientists daily briefing (I urge everyone interested to review each transcript) which emphasizes their continuing concerns:

"The IEA and others have reported that Units 1, 2, and 3 have had their cores at least or approximately half uncovered, and this has probably been the case since shortly after the initiation of the accident. So, it's been at least several days that at least 50 percent or the upper half of these cores have been uncovered. Now, that's a longer period of time for the situation than the core at Three Mile Island experienced, and the upper parts of the cores may have experienced significant damage. What may have happened is a swelling of the fuel rods that could cause a potential -- reduce the ability of coolant to actually get between those rods if the core is reflooded. So, the situation may not be -- these cores may not be as easily cooled as they would have been if they were undamaged.

Another issue that may have come up is the embrittlement of the zirconium cladding. When the zirconium becomes uncovered, after it expands and balloons, it can become oxidized and eventually becomes embrittled. If the core is then reflooded with water, that could cause cracking of the zirconium and release of fuel particles in what's called the debris bed. This was seen at Three Mile Island. The debris could then sink to the bottom of the reactor vessel, where it might then begin an attack on the steel of the reactor vessel. Also, it makes the configuration of the core, again, harder to cool.

One should also note that if part of the core fuses into a single mass, that it is, again, harder to cool the entire mass, and even if you get coolant on the outside of this mass, the central line may continue to heat up and eventually liquefy at the center and then drip down, again, to the bottom of the vessel. So, the fact that the cores have experienced some damage raises questions about the efficacy, even if the cooling is restored and they're reflooded."

They haven't posted the transcript of today's briefing but it should be available later today.

Charley Noble


21 Mar 11 - 02:18 PM (#3118424)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

The IEA statement raises questions for me. But there is no sense posting those questions because there are at least 6 scenarios with a number of variants, all conjecture at this point, among at least 4 of the reactor buildings.

Truely horrific for people of Japan... and as has been stated many times, perhaps far more reaching than Japan depending on how these scenarios play out.

As SINS has said, the front line people are selfless heroes. I was moved to tears today watching NHK TV interview some of those people. One man said he is risking his life to save his children and all the children of Japan. If that don't tear ya up....


21 Mar 11 - 02:50 PM (#3118448)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

At the very least this has shaken relations I would think with their neighbors, putting Chinese, Koreans etc. at risk..if not from air from their fisheries, if it comes to that, as who is to say it could not..will affect fisheries here as well if there is even the thought of radioactive fish. mg


21 Mar 11 - 04:44 PM (#3118510)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

No serious radioactivity affecting anyone outside of the immediate vicinity of the Fukushima complex yet.

Were east coast fish stocks affected by Three Mile Island? Or Mediterranean fish by Chernobyl*? It pays to keep speculations within context.
*(Fish in lakes near Chernobyl may have measureable radioactive caesium, but dilution in oceans or large seas would render the amount immeasurable).

One gets as much radioactive bang from one CT Scan as from a year's exposure near the Fukushima complex at present rates.
Comparable rates- A whole body scan exposes one to 720 mSv/ hour and the highest measured at Fukushima complex was 420 mSv.
Dr. Jeffrey R. Toney, reported in http://scienceblogs.com/deanscorner/2011/03/fukushima_radiation_levels_or.php

(Radioactive iodine has a half life of 8 days but the caesium is much longer (forgotten, but in press items recently)). I think Charlie could fill this in.

If the Fukushima complex can be stabilized in the next couple of weeks, no sky is falling scenario need be invoked.


21 Mar 11 - 05:03 PM (#3118526)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Q-

Radioactive cesium has a half-life of 30 years, which doesn't mean that it's harmless after 30 years but that half its radioactivity has dissipated.

"If the Fukushima complex can be stabilized in the next couple of weeks, no sky is falling scenario need be invoked."

That seems a big "IF" to me given what has already happened at the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex:

Three reactors are partially melted down
Three reactor buildings have their upper sections and roofs badly damaged
Four spent fuel pools are most likely low on coolant and are still boiling away.

The best case scenario will be stabilization known as "cold shutdown."

However, the clean-up costs will be billions of dollars and, if Three Mile Island can be used as a guide, more than ten years to accomplish.

Charley Noble


21 Mar 11 - 05:24 PM (#3118534)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

We do not need to be overly concerned about present rates, it is clear. We do not know what future rates will be, if there is a worst-case scenario, and these rates are going to be cumulative. And part of the problem is with perception..we just do not know what will happen or what the long-term effects will be.

We know a couple of things...there is no truth beyond what can be forced out of them. There is some sort of ingrained paralysis, and the head honchos seem incapable of getting the next situation prepared for even as they deal with the present one. Why have they waited until now to order spare parts and new generators? Would that not have been among the first things they did? They need outside expertise it is obvious. They need to be told in no uncertain terms the world does not trust their honesty or their mechanical comprehension or geological information if they could not figure out a big tsunami was coming, as every school child on west coast of US knows.

One good thing to come from this, as came from the banking fiasco, is that the wizard of oz has to come out in the open and defend his or her behavior. And there is not just incompetence that will be exposed but layer upon layer of corruption. mg


21 Mar 11 - 06:15 PM (#3118565)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

I disagree. Watch NHK Japan and you may feel differently.

Just sayin.


21 Mar 11 - 07:26 PM (#3118613)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/

I downloaded IE 9 and it doesn't like the link maker so there will be fewer blue clickies from me in the near future.

BTW... don't download IE 9... it'll crawl up yer system and plug it up. And ya can't get rid of it even though they say you can unistall the update. Took me three hours to get my system running again and I still have the piece of shite.


21 Mar 11 - 08:00 PM (#3118638)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Digression-
South Korea, mentioned above, is one of the larger players in nuclear technology. It recently sold 4 of its reactors in the United Arab Emirates for $20 billion. In South Korea, 21 reactors provide 40% of the electrical power, by 2030, 60% of the power supply is projected to be nuclear.

China has 13 reactors, with 25 under construction and many more in planning stages. Those under construction are "the World's most advanced."
Articles in www.world-nuclear.org


21 Mar 11 - 10:45 PM (#3118723)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Q-

I love your digressions.

So the fact that more new reactors are being brought on line around the world, is that worrisome? Or is it just a fact of life?

Actually, I'm convinced that the next generation of nuclear reactors will be safer and more efficient but why development them when if we wait another ten years there will be an even safer and more efficient model?

The problem with all nuclear power plants is that if they go bad, it's very bad.

Moreover, even without a major accident, all models of nuclear reactors in use today leave us with the problem of storing high level nuclear waste for ten thousand years or more. Yes, there's the option of reprocessing spent fuel rods but that process is also risky while inevitably producing even more radioactive waste.

The only safe place to generate nuclear energy appears to be the sun, and even that's not reliable in the long run.

Let's go back to whale oil before it's too late!

Charley Noble


22 Mar 11 - 12:56 AM (#3118747)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

A typical meeting in which an engineer is educated to the way things are by the money men representative...

We are all proud to bring on line El Gordo Grane plant built with taxpayer money and only 400 billion dollars over budget. THis is the safest plant built in the last 30 years.
The nuclear power plant located in the volcanic crater of El Gordo Grande is built to withstand a 1 in 10,000 years possibility of an eruption.

"But sir isn't the half life of the nuclear fuel many times 10,000 years, if the...?"

You are looking at the mathmatical nuke accident impossibility model all wrong. You see 10,000 years from now the risk is still 1 in 10,000 and we get another free 10,000 extension.

"I don't think so sir, I think that 3 mile Island, Chernobyl and Fukushima are all 1 in 10,000 year events and they are all blowing up an average of every 15 years."

Ah ha thats where you are wrong. You forgot to divide them by the kilowatt hours sold by every nuke plant in the world multiplied by all the man hours worked and raise that to the exponentially higher utility bills generated over the lifetime of the average nuclear plant that stays in operation 50 years beyond its design... and then run them all at 120% power instead of 70% ...by this formula a nuclear accident is only possible once in 3l6 million years!

"Then what do you call the FUkushima disaster?!"

A blip.

"Who is going to believe that?!

Don't be silly, the only people we need to fool are the survivors.
You are a survivor Harvey, aren't you ???

"yes sir"


22 Mar 11 - 02:06 AM (#3118763)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Do you think that more radiation leaked from the nuclear plants, than was blown into the air from Hiroshima and Nagasaki?..and that drifted to the Left Coast?..and which was 'dirtier'?

GfS


22 Mar 11 - 06:44 AM (#3118852)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

The Canadian Press

Date: Monday Mar. 21, 2011 9:48 PM ET

VANCOUVER — Health Canada monitoring stations have detected a "minuscule" increase in radiation levels along the B.C. coast in the wake of the nuclear crisis in Japan but some residents weren't taking their chances.

Health spokesman Gary Holub said increased radiation levels were expected, and less than the increase in radiation levels Canadians would see naturally when it rains.

He stressed the increase posed no health risk to Canadians.

The agency installed nine additional monitoring stations along the West Coast late last week, as public concerns persisted about possible radioactive drift from Japan making it thousands of kilometres across the Pacific Ocean to North America.

Canadian health officials are reassuring the public there's no need to fear fallout from the Japan, but some residents of B.C. remain nervous.

A number of military surplus stores around Vancouver said they fielded an average of 30 to 40 calls a day from alarmed citizens asking for geiger counters to measure radioactivity, "baby gas masks," potassium iodide supplements and suits to protect them from hazardous materials.


22 Mar 11 - 08:07 AM (#3118889)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

999... but they'll still injest leafy greens in Lotus Land. >;-)


22 Mar 11 - 08:20 AM (#3118898)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

GfS-

"Do you think that more radiation leaked from the nuclear plants, than was blown into the air from Hiroshima and Nagasaki?..and that drifted to the Left Coast?..and which was 'dirtier'?"

There was considerably more worldwide fall out from the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and some different radioactive products such as Strontium-90, than say from the Chernobyl meltdown, explosion and resultant fire. The current event in Japan is incomplete.

I'm not sure what "dirtier" means in this context other than bad news for those downwind.

Charley Noble


22 Mar 11 - 08:21 AM (#3118899)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42206728/ns/world_news-asiapacific/

Clarifies things a bit with a simple graph.

The reports of radiation contamination in the sea near the plant is causing concern. Seafood is to be tested. Whether or not the readings are dangerous, consumers will avoid Japanese seafood.

Re: the plants. Will any of them be usable after all the seawater that has been pumped into them? I thought the corrosive effects would be permanent? Anyone know?
Mary


22 Mar 11 - 08:27 AM (#3118904)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

The Japanese now estimate that the clean-up costs will be about $45 billion, most of which is covered by insurance. It's unclear if that estimate includes the construction of replacement reactors or alternative power plants.

Still no explanation from the Japanese of the steam seen yesterday from Units 2 and 3 at the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex, which triggered a temporary evacuation.

I'm also not sure what the operational status is of Units 5 and 6 at this complex, whether they were also cooled by salt water which would render them useful for further operation. They are now reported in "cold shutdown" but there was also a period when temperatures were becoming elevated in their spent fuel pools.

Charley Noble


22 Mar 11 - 10:23 AM (#3118990)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

The amount of misinformation/lies and spin/conditional lies
is thick fast and furios by the nuclear industry, NRC, astroturf nuke advocates and governments.

Spin such as;
in a couple months the only radioactive products released will be that of Iodine 131.

It appears the spent fuel rods are not respondsible for radiation release but rather it was the sealed reactors that were vented for safety.



I have heard dozens of lies this week.

Remember they only have to fool the survivors.


22 Mar 11 - 11:27 AM (#3119029)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

"499"

Someone else can harvest the glory of "500."

Be my guest.

Charley Noble


22 Mar 11 - 11:37 AM (#3119032)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: reggie miles

So, how long before we all start glowing in the dark and sprouting new limbs as a result of this fine example of modern technology?


22 Mar 11 - 11:39 AM (#3119035)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: reggie miles

Give it to me straight doc. I can take it.


22 Mar 11 - 11:53 AM (#3119043)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Reggie-

People in Japan are far more vulnerable to radiation leaks from this troubled nuclear power complex than people in the States or in Europe.


The transcript of from the Union of Concerned Scientists conference call on Monday, March 21, has now been posted. I find it all interested (go to the website and click on "nuclear") but here are some excepts:

INTRODUCTION

"MR. LOCHBAUM: Good morning. The power line that was run to the site on last Friday has allowed workers to attempt to start reenergizing safety equipment on Units 1 and 2. Those efforts have been slowed by the need to initially proceed cautiously because of the water-spraying efforts, both from the ground and from the air, into the spent fuel pools on Units 3 and 4. That required workers to shield the electrical cables and connections from the water that was being sprayed about. Then the efforts were further complicated by the fact that the hydrogen explosions or some damage within the reactor buildings hence required workers to run temporary lines to connect power from the line that was run to individual components in those structures. So, that's slowing down the efforts to restore a more conventional cooling system for Units 1 and 2. Units 3 and 4 continue to be the -- the priority continues to be spent fuel pool. Efforts over the weekend to get water back into the spent fuel pools largely succeeded. The radiation levels have gone down. There are indications that water in those pools has been restored and the temperatures have stabilized, whereas before, they were heading upwards. So, those conditions on 3 and 4, the spent fuel pools, have been much better than they were just a few days ago. On Units 5 and 6, the spent fuel pools have been -- their cooling systems have been reenergized. They're running. The temperatures have not only decreased, but there's now plenty of margin available that wasn't there just last week. So, conditions are improving across the board.

(snip!)

SPENT FUEL POOL DISCUSSION

REPORTER: Hi, folks. Thanks again for having these briefings. They're really useful. I'm going to ask sort of a design question. Can you talk really about whether the design of the Mark I, or Mark I, specifically the placement of the spent fuel rods containing fuel at a position that's largely above the reactor, made this situation worse. There's been a lot of sort of graphics about how these things are arranged. And in answering, if you could address whether the United States should be worried about this design in installed U.S. reactors.

MR. LOCHBAUM: This is Dave Lochbaum. The arrangement with the spent fuel pool up in upper elevations of the reactor building was a contributing factor, but the larger factors were the fact that the spent fuel pool cooling system was not -- or the spent fuel pool cooling system was not designed to withstand earthquakes. A lot of support systems are also not designed to be powered off of anything other than the electrical grid. So, when the earthquake and tsunami took out the formal power and the backup power, it caused a lot of damage to equipment, nonsafety-related equipment or nonseismically supported equipment, at the plant, the pools were left with nothing that could cool the water.
In addition, the loss of some of the support systems, like the air system, meant that it was possible that the inflatable seals around the gates in the pools deflated and allowed water to leak out of the pool, plus that's in a not very robust building. Unlike the reactor core that's within a concrete wall that's four to five foot thick, it's up there with sheet metal siding around it.

So, in addition, if the water level in the spent fuel pool did drop below the top of the irradiated fuel and hydrogen was generated, inside the main containment building, there is systems to deal with hydrogen, to detect it, to measure what the concentration is, and to do something about it. In the reactor building, there is no such equipment to deal with hydrogen that's produced, and, therefore, the hydrogen explosions occurred. If we were in the situation that they were, the design didn't give the workers much chance to deal with the situation they faced."

I was shocked to read that these plants were licensed to function with no back-up coolant system for their spent fuel pools, in the event of a loss of power to the complex.

Evidently the 7th spent fuel pool, referred to as the common spent fuel pool, the one that is stuffed with older fuel rods, has elevated temperatures but not high enough to attract any concern on the part of plant supervisors.

Charley Noble


22 Mar 11 - 12:22 PM (#3119065)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Power lines to all six nuclear reactor units at Japan's quake-stricken Fukushima Daiichi complex have been connected, its operator said, but electricity has not yet been turned on.

Tokyo Electric Power Co (TEPCO) warned on Tuesday that equipment still had to be checked before power could be properly reconnected, which would mark a significant step in bringing the reactors back under control.

Engineers have also been able to cool a spent fuel pool that was nearly boiling, bringing it back to 105 degrees after dumping 18 tonnes of seawater into a holding pool.

However fears have been raised over the possibility of radiation in seawater near the reactors in northeastern Japan, with reports that some radioactivity has been detected in the sea.

Experts are concerned about sea water that has been used to cool the reactors and their spend fuel ponds after the 9.0 magnitude earthquake and subsequent tsunami on March 11.

Radioactive iodine in the sea samples was 126.7 times the allowed limit, while caesium was 24.8 times over, Kyodo news agency said. But TEPCO said that still posed no immediate danger.

"I'm interested to know how this water is being disposed... if it is being disposed or just allowed to drain to sea," Najmedin Meshkati, a nuclear and environmental expert at the University of Southern California, told the Reuters news agency.

"This is now radioactive waste water. Has there been any measurement of its radiation effect?"

Officials have acknowledged that some of the water used to cool the reactors spilled back into sea.

Hidehiko Nishiyama, deputy director-general at the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency, said the radioactivity in the sea could be both from water used to cool the plant and airborne particles from the reactors.

"Personally, I think the latter is more likely," he told a news conference.




That is from a 33-minute-ago news release from Aljazeera.


22 Mar 11 - 12:42 PM (#3119094)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

A sheet metal building? Not even concrete?

Brownie, where are you when we need you.

I might have to send in the Kardashians next. But I am frankly running out of people to send. mg


22 Mar 11 - 12:50 PM (#3119104)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Charly Noble: "There was considerably more worldwide fall out from the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and some different radioactive products such as Strontium-90, than say from the Chernobyl meltdown, explosion and resultant fire."

Well, as far as the fallout from those reaching the West Coast, do you think that California produced a bunch of mutant freaks after-wards??...Come to think of it, what am I saying????!!?? Hell YES!

GfS


22 Mar 11 - 01:32 PM (#3119131)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/26e02c04-50d2-11e0-9227-00144feab49a.html#axzz1HLnJVzRZ

Interesting article. I wonder in days to come how much we will find out was incompetence, as would be expected from a failing communist country for example, and how much was essentially organized crime. mg


22 Mar 11 - 01:37 PM (#3119135)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: reggie miles

I was surprised to learn that China is in the process of building many more nuclear power plants. This, despite the fact that they had one of the deadliest earthquakes on recent record, where nearly a quarter of a million died as a result.

Tangshan, China
July 28, 1976
Magnitude: 7.5
Death Toll: 242,000
(The casualties in this may have been higher. The Chinese government is thought to have deliberately understated the numbers for political reasons.)

I know that the need for electrical power is great and that modernization is tied to that need but nuclear power is not intelligent technology. It is flawed technology, that places great risk on our doorsteps.

"The worst earthquakes in history, in terms of the death toll have occurred in China. In addition to lying along the earthquake prone "ring of fire", China also has historically had a high population density. This virtually ensures that the highest earthquake casualties will be in China. It also is helpful that the Chinese have long had efficient bureaucracies, which were able to document the casualties as long ago as the 1500s. "

http://www.epicdisasters.com/index.php/site/comments/the_worlds_deadliest_earthquakes/

That's not to mention that China has had six of the top ten deadliest floods in about the last 100 years. The latest, in 1975, where nearly a quarter of a million lost their lives.

http://www.epicdisasters.com/index.php/site/comments/the_worlds_worst_floods_by_death_toll/


22 Mar 11 - 01:58 PM (#3119149)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Power has been extended ("connected") to the Fukushima complex, but it will be days before all functions are tested and repaired.
Japan Times-
White smoke- possibly steam- billowed continuously from buildings housing No. 2 and No. 3 reactors, but Tepco said work could proceed if radiation levels didn't surge at the site.
Defense Minister Kitazawa said he believes the smoke rising from the No. 2 reactor was vapor given off by the water that had been sprayed, while the blackish smoke briefly detected Tuesday at No. 3 was likely rubble that caught fire.

Ventilation systems to filter radioactive materials from tha air are among key equipment that needed the electrical power.

Tepco hopes to restore power to data measuring systems and functions by Wednesday and by Thursday to the No. 3 and 4 reactors, according to a spokesman for the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency.
Tepco said work was ongoing to connect pipes to outside electrical supplies to pump seawater to circulation systems at No. 5 and 6, and the operation should be completed Wednesday.


22 Mar 11 - 02:15 PM (#3119159)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Who is lieing?
How do they lie?
Why do they lie?
What they lie about will always be about guarding an investment at any cost.

I will begin by pointing out a great and symbolic lie.

The second invasion of Iraq was about to begin and Secretary of State Colin Powell was responsible for dressing the coming war in the newest fashion of legitimacy by displaying fake vials of biological warfare weapons and alleged pictures of nuclear weapon factories. He was about to make his announcement to the world of the coming war, not to members of the United Nations but to the American public. He did so in the lobby of the UN instead of in the empty Security Council Chamber.
There was a problem. A huge 150 square foot tapestry was hung in the lobby. It is said that TV cameramen felt that the tapestry would distract the television audience or at least hinder color contrast from the spirit of the message that was to be delivered. The cameramen insisted that the UN provide a solution to the problem. Finally a baby blue polyester curtain three times larger than the painting and bearing the UN logo hid the monstrosity from view. Who would be surprised to learn that the cameramen were from FOX news?
For me that one act symbolizes the thin veil of civility of the 21st century. The enlarged tapestry reproduction of the grandiose painting by Pablo Picasso reveals the savage inhuman disregard for rending flesh from bone of animals and people by the explosions of remote impersonal bombs and artillery that defines much of World War two.   The blue veil covering the picture reveals the belief in the old public relations philosophy that perception is reality. The original painting took a lifetime and the lives of those killed by modern warfare to create. To cover it up it took $300 dollars of polyester and twenty minutes to hang.

Be it the thin blue veil or the thin blue line, civility is as fragile as tissue paper. The human mind will not remember a simple stated truth if it is delivered by a calm peaceful speaker, but if a gesticulating bellicose shouting orator or merely a generally emotional speaker should shout an obvious untruth, that untruth will be remembered with a dose of adrenaline to the listener. In a short time the truth is forgotten and the lie is remembered. With repetition of the lie it becomes an embedded perception of reality. A lie becomes reality within the corrupted memories of the lied to, but not in the reality of the world we share.

Whose voice is heard most often with the most lies? The answer is the voice of the multi billionaires. Billionaires have the same motivations to prosper or do crazy things like anyone else. Only the means are different. A wage earner might scrape a stranger's car in the parking lot and take off without even leaving a note. A billionaire may have private investments in nuclear plants that have accidents and makes sure that he and the company cover it up and are not held responsible. The difference between a fender bender and 25,000 years of deadly radioactive pollution is great, but the human decision making is the same.

Constant warfare, nuclear holocausts in the making, the destruction of democracies, the soaking and sacrificing of workers and the middle class are all Billionaire's games. Besides democracy It is becoming clear that the next threat to the exclusive community of trillionaires is the internet, with its social networking and private entrepreneurial advances by those not under their direct management and control.   Net neutrality is a war the will eventually win. Trillionaires won the war of" too big to fail". Since the 2008 capture of 90% of all money in the world, the entities responsible have in fact become even bigger and more capable of failure that will again be the burden placed upon everyone but themselves.

What happens when multi billionaires who buy and sell national politicians and trillionaires who buy and sell nations, disagree? Whatever it is, you do not have a vote.

How multibillionaires lie is a matter of buying a product from their think tanks. If its a think tank is is usually devoted to a product to maximize the profits of the wealthy and organize events to proceed in a more profitable manner in the future.
In my opinion most of these houses of research do not consider nationalism or patriotism as anything except factors to exploit.
They are the Goebbles of "Banking and Industry".
Think tanks for the most part are just houses of invented lies for profit.

In the spectre of nuclear disasters:
I advise
it is wise
to realize
the lies
are designed to make you feel good and safe and possibly annoyed with those silly frightened enviormentalists who are nothing but ignorant cowards.


22 Mar 11 - 02:19 PM (#3119161)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

"Tepco said work was ongoing to connect pipes to outside electrical supplies to pump seawater to circulation systems at No. 5 and 6, and the operation should be completed Wednesday."

Which means that the utility has given up on salvaging Units 5 and 6 as well.

Utility spokesmen were also quoted on either MSNBC or CNN (I forget which) as saying it might be as long as two weeks before they were able to turn on the electricity within all the reactor units. They need to be sure the hydrogen gas is completely vented (and not continuing to be produced), that the electrical circuits still function or can be bypassed, and that the various electrical motors still function or can be replaced.

I do wonder what level of review will be coordinated by the NRC to assess how our 104 nuclear power plants would function with a similar loss of pumping capacity because of earthquake, tsunami, or other reason. It seems likely to me that the spent fuel pools are every bit as vulnerable as has been proven in the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex.

Charley Noble


22 Mar 11 - 02:44 PM (#3119179)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

An editorial in Japan Times, March 23, titled "Nuclear Power No Solution," by Brahma Chellaney, pointed out serious drawbacks to the push for nuclear energy.
Nuclear power is highly capital-intensive. "It has high up-front capital costs, long lead times for construction and commissioning, and drawn-out amortization periods that put off private investors." (Many are partly or largely government-funded and subsidized).

Nuclear reactors are water-intensive. This is one reason for locating them near coastlines (thus exposed to natural disasters).
Light-water reactors (like Japan and U. S.), which use water as the main coolant, produce most of the world's nuclear power. "The huge quantities of local water that LWRs use for their operations become hot-water outflows, which are pumped back into rivers, lakes and oceans."
When droughts and other causes deplete the water supply, nuclear companies must but outside power. "Indeed, during the 2003 heat wave, Electricite de France, which operates 58 reactors- the majority on ecologically sensitive rivers like the Loire- was compelled to buy power on the European spot market."
In 2006, operators in western Europe obtained exemptions from environmental regulations so that they could discharge overheated water into natural ecosystems, effecting fisheries.

Nuclear power in France supplies 78 percent of the country's electricity, but withdraws half of France's total freshwater consumption.

Freshwater scarcity is a growing problem. A water guzzler, this problem equals that of radiation and spent fuel problems.

Brahma Chellaney wrote "Nuclear Proliferation," Longman, 1993, and "Water. Asia's New Battlefield," Georgetown University Press, forthcoming.
Brahma Chellaney is Professor of Strategic Studies at the Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi. He has held appointments at Harvard, Johns Hopkins University of Advanced International Studies, the Brookings Institution and the Australian National University.


22 Mar 11 - 02:50 PM (#3119182)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL

Is there any reason to believe that if this plant had been using the best known technology and was built to withstand the worst case "expected" scenario that things would be any different? Sometimes shit just happens. Japan needs power. Nuclear energy provides an economical option. What other options (safer options and think Exxon Valdez before you answer) were available when these plants were built?
Just a thought. And I don't subscribe to to the irrational diatribes about greed and politicinas. The people of Japan chose this option. As have the people of many other countries including the US.


22 Mar 11 - 02:55 PM (#3119187)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

This may have been posted before. Japan had 55 reactors (before the tsunami), providing 35 percent of Japan's electricity. All are in coastal locations.
Construction of four new complexes has been delayed for one year to allow for study of the Fukushima disaster.


22 Mar 11 - 03:12 PM (#3119196)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Sinsull

your quote "irrational diatribes" are a hysterical if not very sad example of how people ignore the 'Uber Truth' of a situation and remain mired in the muck of manufactured contrary versions of a story and an ignorance to the divide and conquer methods of lying by the owner class.

Writing from the highest perspective possible of the how and why things like nuclear disasters happen and will continue to happen is lost on you, If stupidity is the cause it may be misunderstood forever, but not to everyone.

I trust someone here does see the scholarship, common sense and perhaps the simple genius in my "diatribes" and "mini scripts" that explain more than an exposition of data. I believe it is important if not imperative to see the big picture.


22 Mar 11 - 03:40 PM (#3119222)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

White smoke means a new pope has been elected. Vive la papa. mg


22 Mar 11 - 03:56 PM (#3119234)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Sinsull-

The comparison can be made by you and others readily in this case. Compare what happened between Fukushima-1 nuclear complex with what happened at the newer Fukushima-2 nuclear complex located seven miles away, up or down the coast. Both plants were knocked off- line by the earthquake and were flooded by the tsunami. But operators regained control of Fukushima-2 without hydrogen explosions or having to make use of salt water as an improvised coolant. That's the easy answer to your questions. The details we won't learn for years.

My preliminary conclusion is that the newer technology may well have provided Fukushima-2 the extra edge to survive. But maybe its plant operators made fewer blunders. Or maybe the damage from the earthquake and tsunami was significantly less.

"Irrational diatribes," I agree, add little clarity to the situation but I do believe there is ample blame that can be and should be appropriately focused on the designers, the engineers, the owners, and the politicians in that order.

Charley Noble


22 Mar 11 - 04:13 PM (#3119239)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

All the Mark IV reactors were designed to have been closed and entombed almost 20 years ago. The decision to keep them open and running beyond their lifespan and operational capacity was made by who? You know who. The owners of this PRIVATE and deadly facility.

The 1958 Mark IV technology still shares one factor with 2010 nuclear plant designs. The common factor is that the waste has no place to go. France reprocesses the fuel pellets but even that process leaves dangerous products that have no proactical solution to keep life away from it for the next 25,000 years.


22 Mar 11 - 04:15 PM (#3119242)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Designers = engineers. The faults lie soley with them EVEN IF they were pressured to cut costs by the owners or politicians.

Canuck engineers wear an iron ring for a reason. That ring can be taken away if they mess up and not only even if they would have had to quit their job because of the "owners or politicians" but also for not fighting against a wrong after they quit their jobs. Here, it is an engineer's duty to uphold the safety of the public. That is not to say any other engineers are less loyal to public safety. Just to say that here, it is enforced under law by the engineers.


22 Mar 11 - 04:35 PM (#3119264)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

"Tokyo Electric Power Company says it has restored the electricity supply for the control room of the Number 3 reactor at the quake-damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant."

Soooo... each reactor building has a control room... again the info is sketchy... does that mean they have to run separate supplies to each control room of each reactor? That seems odd to me if that is actually the case (as the report may indicate).


22 Mar 11 - 04:59 PM (#3119283)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

They were no where near to "worst case expected" scenario in terms of design and building.

They were no where near to minimal competency and public safety in the early days.

It sounds like the government was handcuffed by the electric company and the most commensense reactions were not taken for days due to electric company stonewalling and trying to protects its declining assets rather than the population.   This of course made rescue of tsunami victims more difficult due to radiation factor, evacuations for radiation reasons, fear of responders to go to a hot locale etc.

I am totally unsympathetic to the criminals and nincompoops as this plays out. But it will provide some good lessons for the rest of the world. mg


22 Mar 11 - 05:01 PM (#3119285)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL

Thanks for the response, Charley. If time proves that the plant design enabled Plant 2 to survive intact, would you go so far as to say that the others plants could be updated and allowed to continue operating? Not trying to put you on the spot but the reality is that the people of Japan need electricity. It will be provided one way or another. I don't believe that tidal power is doable yet. Just wondering about their options.

Donuel, it is interesting that you immediately took my reference to hysterical diatribes as a personal critism of you. I named no names. Does the shoe fit?


22 Mar 11 - 05:04 PM (#3119286)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL

One of the more fascinating comments on this nuclear crisis came from a Nagasaki survivor who felt that people were over reacting. If you can find the piece, read it. I will look for a link. An amazing lady with a startling opinion.


22 Mar 11 - 05:24 PM (#3119298)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

It is impossible to know yet whether people are overreacting or underreacting. We do not know what will happen. And unless it is independently verified, we do not know what the truth is. It is not going to be volunteered. mg


22 Mar 11 - 05:31 PM (#3119303)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Each reactor is a separate entity although a complex with 6 reactors (e. g., Fukushima Daiichi) may be serviced with water, etc. from a central source.
Fukushima Daini complex, 7 miles distant, had design differences, including height of tsunami barriers, resistance to tremors, etc.

Somewhere above, I noted that the tsunami provision at the Daini complex was 6.51 meters but wave reached 7 meters, not causing too much damage.
At Daiichi, the severely damaged complex, the provision was 10 meters, but some estimates of the wave were more than 20 meters (from Univ. Tokyo).

The maximum ground acceleration near unit 3 of Daiichi reactor was 507 gal- or 507 centimeters /second squared- well above the plant's design value of 449 gal, according to the Japan Atomic Industrial Forum (20 March report).

Engineers use historical data to aid in design specifications, but the 9.0 quake was unprecedented. Japanese engineers are as good as any in the world; I doubt that engineers anywhere would have made provision for a quake of that magnitude at that location.

Figures released on design---- specs--- reviewed in michelekearneynuclearwire.blogspot.


22 Mar 11 - 05:47 PM (#3119309)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

The SHAW Group Inc. is teaming with Toshiba to provide mitigation, remediation and recovery services for the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear complex.

The SHAW Group provided aid at Three Mile Island, Chernobyl. It is a "global provider of engineering, construction, technology, fabrication, remediation and support services for clients in the energy, chemicals, environmental, infrastructure and emergency response industries."
It is a Fortune 500 company with annual revenues in 2010 of $7 billion. It has 27,000 employees worldwide and in a leader in the power and design sectors.


22 Mar 11 - 06:03 PM (#3119316)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Digression-
Canadian engineers, iron ring.
The Ritual of the Calling of an Engineer, written by Rudyard Kipling, is administered by the Corporation of the Seven Wardens, to the end of directing newly qualified Canadian engineers towards a consciousness of their profession and its social significance.
http://www.ironring.ca

There are a number of engineering societies in all countries.

TENPES (Thermal and Nuclear Power Engineering Society (Japan)


22 Mar 11 - 07:09 PM (#3119373)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

Historical data? Do they not consult with geologists? There was a huge earthquake off Washington coast hundreds of years ago..seconds in geological time or dog years..tsunami reached Japan. Again, I say that it was common conversation in Washington State to expect a really big earthquake..certainly not a 7 or 7.5..huge..do they not have the same advice? I would cut them some slack at a 20 point earthquake, but for sure not a 9. Not out of the realm of possibility at all, in fact expected. mg


22 Mar 11 - 07:12 PM (#3119375)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Lights back on in reactor three.


22 Mar 11 - 07:28 PM (#3119385)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Outlineing the obvious may seem siphmoric but I have seen proof there are people who do not know the fundamental problems at the heart of past present and future man made disasters in the making.


Japan's agency to monitor and enforce safety concerns is the same agency charged with promoting nuclear energy and international sales of reactor parts.

The US has the Nuclear Regulatory Agency which for legal reasons is called an independent agency. The only time it was even slightly independent of privatizzed nuclear companies was for 3 years following 3 mile Island. After that the 191st (Newt Gingrich COngress) told the NRC that if they didn;t stop fining companies for safety hazards and incidents the Congress would defund them forever.

They behaved well ever since.


The enemies of the ownership society, AKA the Billionaires club, are anyone who supporsts labor rights, social justice, economic justice, democracy, goverment regulations, Product safety laws, EPA, consumer rights and or anything that minimizes profits no matter what the consequences,

Sure it seems irrational to most of us to allow such extreme sacrifices of lives, land and sea for so little profit in the grand scheme of things.


22 Mar 11 - 07:38 PM (#3119398)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Other enemies to the billionaire club are Doctors beyond borders, Union of concerned scientists and npr. They are willing to confront power with facts that are not always favorable to Corporate controlers.


22 Mar 11 - 07:54 PM (#3119404)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Someone mentioned that the 4 to 30 billion dollars in economic losses to the owners of TEPCO will be covered by insurance.

What about the millions of people and their homes?
What about the air land sea and rivers?
What about the 7th generation in which the accumlated genetic damage will be at its height?

Will the owners insurance money cover any of that?

nopw.

That my friends is what the Japanese people were sold.



The things I heard the Japanese victims ask for are safe food, gasoline and any credible source of information, particularly about the reactor dangers and consequences.

Of those 3, people here could provide at least some partial information. What you may not have at hand easily are the radiation measurments of food through out Japan but we may be able to at least give them more information thatn Japanese television. Most of their devies have stopped working because they can not charge batteries or use their home computer. It is my hope that we could help provide better information to the disaster victims regarding Fukushima that they currently are getting.


22 Mar 11 - 08:05 PM (#3119415)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

We should definitely be sending windup radios and flashlights and solar chargers..or they should be made available somehow. And I am thinking about sending the boys from Kenya who make the windmills out of pop cans to help rebuild their energy grid. And Crocodile Dundee but I am not sure if he is real or not but what the heck. I can see I have a gender imbalance here though except for the Kardashians. I think I will also send the Celtic Women.   mg


22 Mar 11 - 08:11 PM (#3119418)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

999-

"Lights back on in reactor three" doesn't mean that the pumps, valves, motors necessary to run what's left of Unit 3 are functional. Yes, it's a positive step but not one that should reassure anyone who is concerned about the safety of the entire complex.

I apologize if I'm taking this event too seriously but then I'm been trained by my parents since 1969 not to take the nuclear industry for granted. There's more to be learned from the accident, and I'm well aware that most people will forget the lessons learned in a few short years, as they did with Three Mile Island and Chernobyl.

I also share Donuel's respect for the Union of Concerned Scientists. Reviewing what they post every day in their transcripts of the media teleconference is crucial to understanding how this accident happened and what its impact may be. It's a tedious process and I have yet to see a report published anywhere that indicated that a reporter had digested the information provided. They do occasionally ask the right questions.

Case in point: how many people noticed that a high proportion of the radioactivity coming from the stricken reactors at Fukushima 1 nuclear complex is in the form of Iodine 131, instead of cesium 137? That's an important fact. If the radioactivity were coming primarily from the spent fuel pools it would be predominately cesium 137. That's because the iodine 131 has a much shorter half-life and has already dissipated in the spent fuel pool. Therefore, it's reasonable to conclude that the iodine 131 has come from the reactors, either from venting or primary containment ruptures.

Charley Noble


22 Mar 11 - 08:35 PM (#3119429)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: number 6

"I apologize if I'm taking this event too seriously but then I'm been trained by my parents since 1969 not to take the nuclear industry for granted. There's more to be learned from the accident, and I'm well aware that most people will forget the lessons learned in a few short years, as they did with Three Mile Island and Chernobyl."

Exactly .... I fully agree Charley.

biLL


22 Mar 11 - 08:48 PM (#3119431)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

I don't think you're taking it too seriously. In fact, I think most people aren't taking it seriously enough. I'm also aware the power is not on in the reactors. In fact one news agency quoted some uppity-up in their nuclear pecking order that it might take weeks or even months to get the coolant machines on-line.


22 Mar 11 - 08:59 PM (#3119436)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Addenum to last post by Charley-
IAEA monitors say Japanese authorities believe that the cores have been damaged in Daiichi units 1, 2 and 3. This would explain the radioactive iodine 131. Best case scenario- venting.

A rather complete summary, dated 22 March for the last few additions:

http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html


22 Mar 11 - 09:06 PM (#3119440)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999--Canadian news source

"Negligible" radiation from Japan nuclear power plant detected in B.C.


Trace amounts of radiation from the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant have drifted across the Pacific Ocean.


By Stephen Hui, March 22, 2011
The B.C. Centre for Disease Control is stressing that radiation originating from an earthquake-stricken nuclear power plant in Japan poses "no health risk" to people in British Columbia.

In a Monday (March 21) update on its website, the centre confirmed that it had been told by Health Canada that "minute" amounts of radiation from the Fukushima Daiichi plant were detected by monitoring stations in the province.

"The amounts of radiation from Japan detected over the past few days in BC measure 0.0000005 millisieverts, which is significantly less than those coming from other sources," Monday's update stated.

"Scientists measure exposure to ionizing radiation using a unit of measurement called a sievert. The average Canadian is exposed to between 2 and 3 millisieverts of radiation annually from background radiation."

Today (March 22), the centre said in an update: "Health Canada anticipates that the quantity of radiation reaching Canada, would be negligible and not pose a health risk to Canadians. We are expecting very slight increases in radiation, smaller than the normal day to day fluctuations until a week after the reactors are stabilized."


22 Mar 11 - 09:07 PM (#3119441)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

They only need the survivors to believe their lies.

That phrase or perhaps some derivation of that phrase haunts me and I don't know why. As its stands its not as grand as Lincoln's "you can fool some of the people some of the time" phrase. Maybe it is just not finished...

They only need the survivors to believe their lies,
for the murdered dead can never slay their killers.

hmm, better but not great.




Cesium, Plutonium and Uranium pollution last a bit longer than the Iodine threat. IF the reactors split wide open with an explosion, or if #3 already has...Its a helluva thing to poison a country with radioactivity.
You take away all they have and all that their children could have had for thousands of years.


22 Mar 11 - 09:09 PM (#3119445)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

You are right. Now what?


22 Mar 11 - 09:27 PM (#3119459)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Tell Branson of Virgin to hurry up with his planes to outer space and hotels on a suitable planet?


22 Mar 11 - 09:56 PM (#3119471)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

It makes me furious. There is no reason for some of suffering.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20110322/wl_time/08599206077300


22 Mar 11 - 10:00 PM (#3119473)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Collating the best info on the FUKU situation to a Japanese victim who is soley reliant on NHK TV can be done by putting it on the internet for those who can gain access. The mg suggestion was insightful. Your ideas made real is all it takes.

The thread about using Japan red cross to help and avoiding text donations that take 3 months or more to clear has some more ideas.



Being right and changing the world are two different things...

To make change the legitimate way takes revolution, fortunes and decades.
A differnt approach could be more direct. It is taught that if one really wants to get something resolved, it is best to go to the source or go to the top.

Naturally the most corrupt billionaire owners who feel they need protection have put laws, police states, domestic surveilence, phone recordings, massive internet downloads, patriot acts, private security, gated communities, off shore accounts and homes to insure their domestic tranquillity. But there is a place they all go and that is where persuasion to do the right thing can be properly and politely expedited. "Good evening sir, my name is John, John Galt...?...No sir, no relation"


I already have a CIA and FBI file so I leave it to those who can or already do swim with the whales. The details are in a fictional story of mine called 'The Impertinent Bastards'. Whats it about? Its a band that is free, and a tome for the brave.


22 Mar 11 - 10:04 PM (#3119475)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

It is sad but it takes at least 2 weeks to mobilize efforts to an effective degree after a disaster. Early responders and search parties are always out of proportion to the number of those in need.
It is already 12 days old


23 Mar 11 - 12:12 AM (#3119505)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Sandra Bullock donated one million to Japanese Aid.

Hey George Clooney, whats the deal? Haiti yes, Sudan Yes, Japan ...?


23 Mar 11 - 07:26 AM (#3119641)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Jim Martin

Water in Tokyo now unfit for babies to drink:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12825342


23 Mar 11 - 08:02 AM (#3119655)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL

According to a news report (radio) this morning Japan has turned down most offers of money and donations choosing to work with only fifteen donors. They claim they do not need financial aid. Maybe they don't.
I would have to dig but I remember reading that Japan covers housing insurance for homeowners. They were explaining why insurance companies would not take a huge hit after this disaster.That was on line.


23 Mar 11 - 08:16 AM (#3119669)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

More positive reports this morning in the newspapers about restoring power to the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex, tempered by how long it might take to safely reactivate the cooling machinery that has not been damaged. Interestingly enough there was also a detailed report on the issue of spent fuel pools.

"Cesium, Plutonium and Uranium pollution last a bit longer than the Iodine threat."

That is a true statement but Plutonium and Uranium pollution should only be found deposited in close proximity to the plant complex. These radioactive isotopes are far too heavy to be suspended long in a vapor plume. Oh, shit! But they could be suspended longer in liquid and drained into the sea with the salt water being used to cool the reactors and spent fuel pools. It's unlikely that the Japanese have contained the sea water for treatment after it drained out of the reactor buildings (see 999 above).

Plutonium and Uranium are deadly for tens of thousands of years, compared with the much shorter half-lives of Iodine and Cesium.

I do confess that after the Maine Yankee nuclear power plant was decommissioned in 1996 or thereabouts, I went into hibernation on this issue. Well, we did stage one final commemorative special event where we invited everyone we knew to show up with their stories and memorabilia to celebrate; Fred Small and Charlie King were also invited in to lead a few songs. It was a wonderful evening in spite of the mini-blizzard that hung just over the City of Portland and dropped a foot of snow.

Charley Noble


23 Mar 11 - 08:25 AM (#3119674)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42219616/ns/business-us_business/

Dry cask storage of nuclear waste (spent fuel). Lots of it to go round. Even in Maine.


23 Mar 11 - 08:40 AM (#3119687)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Not just the spray, Charley... rain.


23 Mar 11 - 09:42 AM (#3119733)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

The Tokyo Electric Power Company, or TEPCO, says black smoke was seen rising from the No.3 reactor building at the quake-damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant at around 4:20 PM on Wednesday.


23 Mar 11 - 09:45 AM (#3119736)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

gnu-

True, rain could also wash radioactive deposits into the sea.

There are troubling reports this morning that black smoke is still being observed from the Unit 3 at the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex. The utility offers no explanation about what part of this Unit 3 damaged building this smoke is coming from and what kind of isotopes are in the plume.

Charley Noble


23 Mar 11 - 09:54 AM (#3119743)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Here's a link to everything you would or would not like to know about the spent fuel pools at the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex as gathered by the Union of Concerned Scientists from official sources: click here for update!

Listed are the 6 spent fuel pools associated with Units 1 through 6, plus the larger common pool, and dry cask storage on site. There is also discussion.

Most concern is focused on the spent fuel pools in Unit 3 and Unit 4, both of which were extensively damaged by hydrogen explosions.

Charley Noble


23 Mar 11 - 01:02 PM (#3119879)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

My poster for nuclear power

http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/don/levelplayingfield1.jpg


23 Mar 11 - 01:09 PM (#3119884)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Dorothy Parshall

Nice poster, Donuel!


23 Mar 11 - 01:12 PM (#3119885)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Dorothy Parshall

When Ursula Franklin (google her) tells me it is safe, I will believe it. Until then...


23 Mar 11 - 01:20 PM (#3119886)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Pressure pump motors are being replaced in No. 2 Fukushima Daiichi, destroyed or fried by quake and/or electrical malfunction. Contradictory reports about high radiation stopping work at that reactor is now reported as a miscommunication.
Very high temperatures recorded at no. 1 and 3. Very disturbing.

Rebuildng of power lines to the reactors at the complex only the beginning of the repairs which must be made to stabilize the reactors, which probably be permanently closed down once that is done.

Appearance of radioactivity in Tokyo water is disturbing. The sources are the Tonegawa (NE Tokyo), Arakawa and Tama River systems, combined with managed forests in Tokyo and Yamanashi (west of Tokyo) Prefectures. Only 0.2 % of the water is groundwater.
Usage 6.3 million cubic meters/day.


23 Mar 11 - 01:43 PM (#3119898)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

TEPCO (Tokyo Electric Power Company), with some 35,000 employees, has widely held stock, 38% by individuals, 22% by various companies both foreign and Japanese, 10% by insurance companies, 18% by trust banks, 10% by Japanese governments. Dividend yield c. 2.5%.


23 Mar 11 - 01:59 PM (#3119910)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

Those miserable idiots did not have thermometers apparently that worked without electricity. So they are only now measuring certain temperatures. And yes, I hope they lose face and are driven from their positions by the people they put at such risk. Now I am going to send in Chef Ramsey and Star Jones with the goal of cutting through any red tape. And Paula Deen to make people feel better about the whole situation. mg


23 Mar 11 - 02:00 PM (#3119912)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Good poster.

NHK said a few hours ago... temp of #1 reactor was 400 and double the seawater was pumped in and temp fell to 330 (design temp is 300). The smoke from #3 building cancelled sparty ops today. High radiation at #2 building. #5 and 6 reactor temps at 100 or below.

Tokyo tap water not to be ingested by those under 12 months age due to iodine. Bottled water in short supply beacuse fuel in short supply.

(It's getting more and more difficult to watch... those people must be terrified.)


23 Mar 11 - 02:20 PM (#3119923)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

"sparty ops"? Did you mean spray ops?


23 Mar 11 - 09:45 PM (#3120135)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Coverage on American cable news channels is now spotty.
I did see a FOX reporter in Japan say that they have detected what he called neutron beams which is indicative of Plutonium radiation and that it would point to a release that typically would come from a reactor.

Dark smoke from reactor 3 could suggest a core breach of some kind and prompted a worker withdrawl. For the little info we are given it could just as esily be a lubricant fire.

One FOX reporter speaking of finding neutron beam radiation (which is not a scientific term to my knowledge) does not make it true.


23 Mar 11 - 10:50 PM (#3120157)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

These reports are very confusing and disturbing. I'm left wondering if the Utility workers have any idea of what damage has already occurred at these reactors, and what might happen next.

Unfortunately the Union of Concerned Scientist reports always lag a day or so.

But I'll see if NIRS has any update worth mentioning.

Charley Noble


23 Mar 11 - 10:57 PM (#3120161)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Just checked the website for the Nuclear Information Resources Service (NIRS) and here's their two updates for today:

UPDATE, Noon, Wednesday, March 23, 2011. The Austrian Central Institute for Meteorology and Geodynamics (ZAMG), which is advising the International Atomic Energy Agency, reports that releases of radioactive Cesium (hazardous life: 300-600 years) from Fukushima now are 20-60% (what a range!) those of Chernobyl; releases of Iodine-131 are at 20% Chernobyl releases.

UPDATE, 11:00 am, Wednesday, March 23, 2011. We have received no recent updates on the condition of the reactors and fuel pools at Fukushima Daiichi. In this case, hopefully no news is good news.

Charley Noble


24 Mar 11 - 07:42 AM (#3120299)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

My thought for today is the misunderstanding and misuse of the concept of radioactive "half-life." I just heard someone this morning on NPR describe Cesium-137 as "harmless" in 30 years. No, 30 years is when it has lost half of its radioactivity, leaving it still danger to living things (including us) for at least another 270 years. The rule of thumb is to multiply the half-life by a factor of ten. NIRS above is even more conservative, suggesting 10 to 20.

Have a nice "half-life"!

Charley Noble


24 Mar 11 - 07:59 AM (#3120314)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Here's what I find most interesting from yesterday's teleconference at the Union of Concerned Scientists:

"I would also like to mention there are reports of black smoke being emitted from reactor number 3 today. Authorities don't know what the origin is, but they say they don't think it's a serious problem if this is originating from the spent fuel pool; however, it could be an indication that there has been severe damage to the fuel itself in that there's larger particulate matter that's now being carried into the air in the form of smoke. That would be fuel particles that would include less volatile isotopes, including plutonium.

So, if the levels of a type of radiation known as alpha radiation start increasing, that could be an indication that the fuel itself is starting to degrade and being released, which might be additional cause for concern."

There's lots more discussion and perhaps someone else would like to harvest and discuss a paragraph of two, or not.

Charley Noble


24 Mar 11 - 09:13 AM (#3120369)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL

Two workers have been hospitalized with radiation poisoning. They were standing in a pool of contaminated water while doing repairs. Radio news reports said they have "serious" burns. I am trying to image the commitment it took to be burned in radioactive crap and continue to work.


24 Mar 11 - 10:18 AM (#3120408)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

The reporting of Plutonium release is sparse and guarded.

Cable news networks seem succesfully muzzled. People who express any concern about nuclear danger are shouted down by bleached blondes, proclaimed experts and shock joke yellers and are told they have fallen prey to media conspiracy hype and that "NO ONE EVER DIED AT TMI" and that only 32 people died at Chernobyl.
This whole thing is blown out of proportion like swine flu or anthrax scares. etc.

The repitition of the nuclear lie is in full swing. Naturally I look at the public relation, brain washing aspect of this disaster since that was my field of study.

The big lie needs to be crushed. Pictures are the best way to do this.


Any suggestions?


24 Mar 11 - 11:11 AM (#3120440)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL

Higher radiation levels have been found - high enough to endanger an infant- outside the evacuated zone. Bottled water is in short supply.
A frightening time for families with young children or babies on the way.


24 Mar 11 - 11:18 AM (#3120441)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Nukes are the only answer website. mmmm Thorium delicious


24 Mar 11 - 11:19 AM (#3120442)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Re up to one year old... levels have fallen from 300 to below 100 (the safety limit) for most of Tokyo and five other cities nearby but has risen in several cities to the north and northwest. All depends on the wind I assume.


24 Mar 11 - 11:19 AM (#3120443)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

I tried googling "pro nuke demonstration"   lol not much there


24 Mar 11 - 11:28 AM (#3120452)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

oops.... and rain.


24 Mar 11 - 11:47 AM (#3120462)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Thursday, March 24, 2011 21:48 +0900 (JST) NHK...

The Defense Ministry says temperatures at 4 nuclear reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi power plant have fallen below 20 degrees Celsius.

The ministry has been using helicopters to take infrared surveys of the surface temperatures of facilities at the stricken plant since Saturday.

The 30-minute survey, which was done from around 7 AM on Thursday, also found that the storage pool for spent fuel at the No. 3 reactor has cooled to about 30 degrees.

The ministry says the surface temperature of the No. 1 reactor was 13 degrees Celsius, that of No. 2 stood at 13 degrees, No. 3 at 11 degrees, and No. 4 at 17 degrees.
All readings were down from a day earlier.

The ministry says the surface temperature of the storage pool at the No. 3 unit was 31 degrees Celsius, down 26 degrees from the day before. Self-Defense Force troops and firefighters have been spraying water onto the Number 3 reactor building.

Thursday, March 24, 2011 21:48 +0900 (JST)


24 Mar 11 - 11:56 AM (#3120467)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

gnu-

If those temperature reading are accurate, it's very good news. I'm not averse to that, and I doubt if anyone else who has been contributing or following this thread would be either.

I note that there is no temperature reading reported for the spent fuel pool at Unit 4 (or for the pools in Unit 1 and Unit 2), where the freshest spent fuel was present at the beginning of this saga.

Charley Noble


24 Mar 11 - 01:29 PM (#3120540)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

IAEA reported No. 2 temps for spent fuel pool as received from Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Agency for March 20-24, ranging from 47-53 C.

Unit 1- no precise data available since the explosion on March 12, but today NISA said temperature and pressure "somewhat stabilized."

Unit 3- only general data, this reactor continues to be the primary concern.

Unit 4- since all assemblies were in the spent fuel pool (down for maintenance when the quake hit) the pool had a larger heat load than the others. No reports of temperature concerns today.

Units 5 and 6- Since temp. diesel generators put on line, temps have been "significantly lower" after rising for several days.

Work in underway to test-run cooling pumps at no. 3 and 4, and testing on pumps for 1 and 2 to be tried soon. These pumps use fresh water.
Outside power sources now connected to all six reactors.

From various online reports- IAEA, Japan Times, etc.

Note- Unless temperatures are recorded by the sensors connected to the spent fuel pools, they are suspect. This accounts for the sparse reports, since NAIA will not release suspect temps and/pressures.

Reticence by both TEPCO and the government is frustrating to those seeking data.


24 Mar 11 - 02:02 PM (#3120557)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

#1 reactor... NHK...

Temp went up to 400... seawater injection doubled... pressure went up and temp went to 330... pressure down somewhat... "steady" now... whatever the hell that means.

Of course, if they can avoid "meltdown", that's what counts.

Sketchy stuff listening to the experts talk (interpretation clouds it further) but one lad today indicated that even if they got everything running with all the reactors there is still a fine line to walk during cooling everything down... "tricky" would be my interpretation.

All fine for me to watch and to try to understand and report it here but I just can't get out of my head the terror millions of Japanese must be feeling.


24 Mar 11 - 02:28 PM (#3120572)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

When the terror declines, and it might not be terror but lower, like anxiety..there is going to be fury, perhaps subtly expressed. There are going to be demands for resignations, if they are not immediately forthcoming, and there are going to be investigations, probably from outside Japan, about who the government is, who the electrical company is, why they seem to run the government, and who runs the electrical company, and it is going to be a warning to us all. mg


24 Mar 11 - 03:12 PM (#3120594)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Anxiety, yes. Investigations, yes. Resignations, doubtful.
The response will be to rebuild, based on lessons learned.

Historical data was used in the reactor specifications.
Attention is focused on the reactors at Fukushima, but the other 50 centers are continuing operation.

Historical data was used in development of the Sendai urban centers; some 20,000 perished. Planning for rebuilding and relocation is underway, based on the 2011 experience.

Historical data was used in specifications for power grids and distribution systems, but some critical industries slowed or stopped, affecting production and jobs not only in Japan but in the U. S. and other countries with dependence on Japanese components. Re-location of power distribution lines from grid systems is underway.

Japan will rebuild, not recriminate and stagnate.

Nuclear power will continue to increase in importance, adding to the 50-odd reactors in use. The world's first full MOX plant was begun in 2008-09 in Aomori Prefecture, power generation expected in 2014. Kyushu Electric Power Co. began commercial operation Dec. 2009 after loading MOX from France. Shikoku Electric Power has loaded MOX at its Ikata 3 reactor (MOX also from France).


24 Mar 11 - 03:27 PM (#3120600)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Q... "Japan will rebuild, not recriminate and stagnate."

As they should... well said.

And that goes for whatever the outcome is and however it influences future endeavours. Humans will survive. Naysayers underestimate their abilities a tad too much.


24 Mar 11 - 04:10 PM (#3120628)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

The crete pumper being used on the pools is from Vietnam. It was in Japan and was to be shipped out elsewhere when Vietnam offered it to help. She's a big bugger... 50m of arm. Good show Vietnam!


24 Mar 11 - 04:47 PM (#3120655)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

People in the electric company already had to resign years ago over their corruption and/or ineptitude. I can not imagine that this would be different. And in a way this is a blow for freedom, because the people are way less free than I would have thought, but I think that will be somewhat corrected. And various truths will be forced out of them or will just be found by others. This is the time (or once any emergencies are truly over) for them to lose face, because it is perhaps all that will force change.

And I am not interested in talk of engineering for historical data. Not when the consequences are that high and the predictions for such catastrophe are given to the general public all the time. It is not hidden in obscure engineering journals that there will be 9.0 earthquakes. I do not blame the engineers as they were owned by someone or prevented from doing their work somehow.

Who are the inspectors? Who are the falsifiers of information? mg


24 Mar 11 - 05:58 PM (#3120703)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Specifications used in the future will, of course, include data on the 9.0 quake and tsunami- that is now historical data which will be used in designing and engineering constructions of all kinds in the Prefecture in question.

Having been registered as a professional geologist and working with licensed professional engineers for my working life, I resent the implication that anyone owns me or my associates. We are not omnipotent, however, and cannot base specifications on something that has not happened before or is not predictable for the project in question.
I see no evidence of malfeasance in the design or operation of Fukushima, only a disaster that was beyond reasonable parameters for that location.


24 Mar 11 - 06:27 PM (#3120738)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

Of course you can base specifications on something that has not happened before. And this earthquake was predictable as was the tsunami. I am referring to the electric company engineers. Certainly you build and design to anything way worse than anything that has ever happened.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/in-crisis-japans-government-struggles-to-deliver/2011/03/20/ABJJGg0_story.html

And they will "resign". mg


24 Mar 11 - 08:40 PM (#3120836)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Q-

"Unless temperatures are recorded by the sensors connected to the spent fuel pools, they are suspect."

Thanks for pointing this out.

I tend to agree with you that this event was beyond the reasonable assumptions of the designers, who did add a safety margin.

I do believe that when the design assumptions were greatly exceeded by the earthquake and tsunami, the fact that there were four reactors overwhelmed at once compounded the job of the on-site workers. I'm also convinced that mistakes were made in the initial attempts to mitigate the conditions in the runaway reactors and spent fuel pools. But we'll only learn the details 5 or so years from now, and by that time the public will only remember Fukushima and maybe a date. If you told people in general that half the fuel at Three Mile Island had melted down and escaped the reactor vessel, how many people would already know that; the report came out 5 years later.

Gnu-

I also find the report from NHK on reactor Unit 1 perplexing:

"Temp went up to 400... seawater injection doubled... pressure went up and temp went to 330... pressure down somewhat... 'steady' now... "

There should be such spikes of temperature if this reactor is really back under control.

mg-

I'm not sure how they "clean house" in Japan but the job needs to be done and most likely will be done. They probably have to depend on nuclear power for the seeable future and they can't afford to make this kind of dreadful mistake.

Charley Noble


25 Mar 11 - 06:33 AM (#3121084)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

NHK cycles between twenty and thirty minutes usually so it's a quick source of the latest news. I am 12 hours behind Japan so I get the most recent reports between 5 and 8AM. Not much changes after that unless something major happens.


25 Mar 11 - 06:47 AM (#3121098)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Iodine in tap water spreading... 229.6 Bq/l in Hitachi.
Voluntary evacuation in 20-30km zoned urged.

Japan's defense minister says the government plans to switch from seawater to fresh water to cool the crippled reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, with the support of US forces.

Toshimi Kitazawa told reporters on Friday that the United States urged Japan to quickly switch to fresh water, and offered to help do so.

Seawater has been used at the plant as an emergency measure, but salt in the water could lead to corrosion of the reactors' interiors.

The US forces and Japan's Self-Defense Forces have drawn up plans to anchor off the Fukushima coast US Navy barges capable of carrying large amounts of water, and send water via pipelines to the plant.
The US military is also to provide a high-powered pump to send water through the pipelines, and Japanese SDF vessels are to be mobilized to refill the barges with water.

The US vessels have already left their base in Yokosuka, near Tokyo. The US forces and SDF hope to set up the pipelines and other systems for the operation as soon as next week.

Friday, March 25, 2011 15:22 +0900 (JST)


Japan's nuclear safety agency says it is highly likely that the Number 3 reactor of the troubled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant has been damaged, leading to the leak of high levels of radiation.

The agency was speaking to reporters about Thursday's accident in which 3 workers were exposed to radiation from water on the floor inside the turbine building of the No.3 reactor. The level of radioactivity was about 10,000 times higher than the water inside a normally operating nuclear reactor.

The agency said while the reactor appears to have partially retained its function to contain radiation leaks, there's a strong possibility that some part of the reactor is now damaged and the containment function is weakening.

Friday, March 25, 2011 12:48 +0900 (JST)


25 Mar 11 - 08:11 AM (#3121155)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

It seems to be Reactor Unit 3 which now is having the most trouble as identified above:

TOKYO – A suspected breach in the core at one reactor at a stricken Fukushima nuclear plant could mean more serious radioactive contamination, Japanese officials revealed Friday — a situation the prime minister called "very grave and serious."

A somber Prime Minister Naoto Kan sounded a pessimistic note at a briefing hours after nuclear safety officials said they suspected a breach at the Fukushima Dai-ichi plant that would be a major setback in the urgent mission to stop the facility from leaking radiation.
"The situation today at the Fukushima Dai-ichi power plant is still very grave and serious. We must remain vigilant," Kan said. "We are not in a position where we can be optimistic. We must treat every development with the utmost care."

Evidently I left out a crucial "not" in my last posting:

"There should NOT be such spikes of temperature if this reactor is really back under control."

This sucks big time!

The other reason for shifting from salt water to fresh water is that the salt deposits around the reactor fuel rods interfere with the cooling process from circulating water. Fresh water was not an option evidently when the emergency back-up pumps failed.

Charley Noble


25 Mar 11 - 08:37 AM (#3121182)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Here's two excerpts from yesterday's tele-conference of the Union of Concerned Scients. The first addresses the "salt-water question":

"Can you please comment on the New York Times story about the risk of salt build-up on the inside the reactors and what that might mean?

MR. LOCHBAUM: Yes, this is David Lochbaum, I'll take a first shot at. The salt water that's being used for both the spent fuel pools and the reactor cores will as that water evaporates leave the salt behind. If there's complete or near total evacuation of the water, then you have a lot of salt skewing left behind, and it could insulate the fuel and impede the heat transfer from the pellets inside the fuel through the cladding, through the salt layer, to the water, once water is restored.

So, they're, as quickly as they can, they're likely to want to stop injecting sea water, start injecting fresh water to dilute the salt concentration that's already in the spent fuel pools and in the reactors.

They were basically down to only the option of using sea water, so they were pretty much forced into using that for as long as they only had the one option.

It is complicating what they do, not only because of the effect that the salt could impede heat transfer and potentially block some of the cooling water flow paths, but it's also very corrosive and it will do damage to components in the plant. So that they need to, as quickly as they can, get out of using sea water, get it back out of the plant as quickly as they can. And again, they had no option, they had to use the only water they had available, given the baggage, even the baggage that it carried."

The second excerpt goes back to venting and the likely cause of the hydrogen explosions:

"REPORTER: Were they also venting, though, from the primary containment into the secondary containment? Were there relief valves that would have allowed the hydrogen to get out of the primary into the secondary?

MR. LOCHBAUM: You know, our understanding because of the periodic venting of the reactor vessel, they also had in turn to periodically vent the primary containment, because it would pressurize also. The normal way for venting the containment is through the reactor building inside piping that would discharge it through a stack outside of primary or secondary containment as well.

You've probably seen pictures where they have those stacks that are surrounded by scaffolding or supports to hold them. That should have been where the vented atmosphere from the primary containment went, was up through those stacks. For some reason, the hydrogen ended up in the reactor building itself.

We've posted something on our blog, allthingsnuclear.org, that suggests one pathway that it may have been that they waited to vent the containment too long, and the pressure built up, actually lifted the reactor vessel head off the flange enough to leak hydrogen into the reactor building.

Since they were following the same procedure, that would explain why it happened on Units 1, 2 and 3. They waited to the same pressure point, it was high enough to lift the reactor vessel head, not blow it off the top, but just enough to provide a small pathway for hydrogen to leak out.

The reason we provide that pathway, possible pathway, is that that did happen at the Brunswick Nuclear Plant, during its initial start-up testing, they pressurized the containment, the head lifted off of the flange and it wasn't hydrogen in those days, it was air that leaked out into the reactor building. So, we're saying since that happened once, it's possible that that same scenario explained what happened on Units 1, 2 and 3. The one difference between Unit 2 and the other two units is that the hydrogen seems to have exploded either in the torus or in the reactor building area just outside of the torus. We're not sure why there's a difference between that unit and the other two units in that regard. "

The current puzzle in my mind is why it is not Unit 2 which is in major trouble this morning. It's explosion was more internal and was thought to have breached the "torus" underlying the primary containment. But now officials are suggesting that there is a breach of primary containment in Unit 3.

All will be clear five years from now! The film release scheduled for next month may not get it quite right, except for the personal drama.

Charley Noble


25 Mar 11 - 01:10 PM (#3121396)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Chopper video... hopw the likn works... I downloaded IE9 and it does not like the link maker.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/25_30.html


25 Mar 11 - 01:33 PM (#3121409)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

A principal story today in NY Times and on CNN is the announcement that the core in reactor 3 is breached. As posted in threads above, two additional reactors are under suspicion, and Charley had noted the probability, based on the escaping radioactive elements, that a core was breached.

The serious exposure of workers who stepped in highly contaminated water brought the comment from Nishiyama of the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency.
Two workers not wearing high boots received beta burns. The surface of the water was measured at 400 millisieverts. NISA reprimanded TEPCO for not taking better care of its workers.

No. 1 and no. 3 reactors now are receiving fresh water, no. 1 and no. 2 still receiving seawater.

The Government will set up a 'drastic' plan this summer to cope with electrical power shortages as a result of the loss of two power plants in Fukushima province.

Above from Japan Times.


25 Mar 11 - 01:58 PM (#3121427)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Hmmmm... Now that they have stated they believe the reactor containments have been breached, which was evident days ago from the detection of iodine according to a professor who said said today on NHK that the iodine could NOT have come from the pools, the big question is, from that professor, core or pipes and valves? I haven't heard evidence to demonstrate core breach and since the core steel containment is 200mm thick, I would think the pipe, valve (and flange o-ring gasket) scenarios are more likely.

In any case, if any of these components are breached, pumping cooling water could increase leakage. Now, how the hell can you change out valves? or seal cracked pipes if the pressure is high?

I have a terrible feeling that the fresh water and concrete pumper may have to be put to another use before this is over.

As for mg's comments on designing for the indeterminable, if engineers did that, nothing would get built. Only God can make a rock he can't lift.


25 Mar 11 - 02:14 PM (#3121437)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: JHW

Perhaps this should be a new thread but my thoughts are also with the plot to drop more Nuclear Power Stations on the UK.
I'm hoping this disaster has frightened off the would be private investors in any new round. (They never yet picked up the tab for the old ones or the clean-up and waste disposal)
My proper lifetime job has been a field engineer in electricity power distribution. Outside the industry you might hardly believe the massive effort to make every aspect of our systems and their operation safe. Nothing is left to chance. Everything is considered to the far end of a farad and catered for.
But things will always go wrong.


25 Mar 11 - 02:15 PM (#3121439)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

This was quite predicted. It was not out of the realm of possibility. It was going to happen. It is going to happen where I live and there will be no escape, but at least we don't have a nuclear catastrophe on our little spit of sand. mg


25 Mar 11 - 03:12 PM (#3121477)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Josepp-

Good point but I believe you are missing the big picture.

It's unclear to me and others how many reactors or spent fuel pools at the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex have been breached. The immediate suspect is the reactor in Unit 3. Here's an update from NIRS (Nuclear Information Resource Service):

"UPDATE, 11:00 am, Friday, March 25, 2011. Greenpeace Germany has released a statement that, according to an analysis of radiation releases by consultant Dr. Helmut Hirsch, Fukushima is now a Level 7 accident on the international scale (currently it is officially ranked as a Level 5, comparable to the Three Mile Island accident of 1979; Level 7 would make it comparable to Chernobyl).

UPDATE, 10:00 am, Friday, March 25, 2011. Three workers were treated yesterday for contamination after walking in highly radioactive water in Unit 3 that is said to have had a dose rate of 20 rems/hour—about 10,000 times above normal. However, even that rate wouldn't be high enough to cause the burns that were reported on the workers, so there is suspicion that the rates were even higher. Radioactive elements were found in the water that are not normally found in reactor cooling water.(emphasis added)

This has led to new open speculation among government and utility officials that the core of Unit 3 has been breached and primary containment has failed (most observers have suggested this for several days). The Japanese Prime Minister has called the situation "very grave and serious." Radiation can be expected to be released from at least Unit-3 for some time. Steam is continuing to be released from multiple reactors at the site—steam releases at this point are certainly radioactive."

If there is a breach in Unit 3, there is still danger of a fuel core explosion and fire, and in the extreme case Units 1, 2, and 4, all going up in succession. The resulting radioactive plume will rival that of Chernobyl and devastate much of Japan for generations. The best case scenario will be a very messy clean-up in and around Unit 3.

Charley Noble


25 Mar 11 - 03:19 PM (#3121482)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Charley... "If there is a breach in Unit 3, there is still danger of a fuel core explosion and fire, and in the extreme case Units 1, 2, and 4, all going up in succession."

How so? H generation in turn ignited by the buring of the rod casings?


25 Mar 11 - 03:31 PM (#3121488)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

What about the sand and cement option? Do you want to bet they haven't started gathering either? Anyway, some people say it is way past time to do this and others say that the cement will force the rods into the earth and there will be a bigger or longer problem. What is the thinking on this? mg


25 Mar 11 - 03:37 PM (#3121495)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

gnu-

It would be a combination of a hydrogen explosion and burning of the radioactive fuel. The fuel rod cladding burns first but I believe the fuel itself will burn if it reaches a high enough temperature.

Here's what CNN says about Unit 3:

"That reactor is of particular concern, experts have said, because it is the only one at the plant to use a combination of uranium and plutonium fuel, called MOX, that is considered to be more dangerous than the pure uranium fuel used in other reactors."

Fortunately, unlike Chernobyl, there is no graphite (moderators) to further fuel an ensuing fire.

Charley Noble


25 Mar 11 - 05:17 PM (#3121543)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

NY Times, March 25-
Chinese engineers are building pebble-bed reactors that use fuel spheres ('pebbles'). Amassing these pebbles inside the reactor creates nuclear fission, which heats a gas. The gas in turn heats water into steam, driving a turbine. The reactor core consists of 420,000 of these fuel spheres, and every 15 seconds one is removed and replaced by another one. Experts say these reactors offer a safer nuclear alternative.
Each fuel sphere contains c. 12,000 uranium-laden 'microspheres'.
A schematic diagram of the reactor is shown in the NY Times article.
Graphite bricks around the core act as a reflector to enhance the reaction. Helium gas passes between the spheres, absorbing their heat.
Heat exchanger- Helium exiting the reactor goes into a cylinder with pipes of hot gas and pipes of water. The gas heats the water into steam that is sent to a turbine, producing electricity. The helium is cooled by the water and recirculated.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/25/business/energyy-environment/20110325-chinanuke.html


25 Mar 11 - 05:51 PM (#3121569)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

30 percent of companies listed on the stock exchanges reported damage from the quake and tsunami.
Of these, 33% reported building damage, 30% are unable to do business and 13% reported damage to utilities and/or infrastructure.
Limited production (Lexus and Prius) restarted at Toyota.
Partial restart on lithium batteries.


25 Mar 11 - 07:34 PM (#3121633)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

MOX... isn't that what the French are pushing for sale these days?


25 Mar 11 - 09:46 PM (#3121694)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Getting back to my worst case scenario of Unit 3 exploding and triggering Units 1, 2, and 4 in a grander conflagration, everyone should know I'm going well beyond my zone of confidence. I fully expect that Units 1, 2, and 3 are already partially melted down and may complete the process to full meltdown. That will be messy enough locally. But what might happen next is not that clear. Sure, I can envision the melted fuel rods eating their way through the reactor vessel as they did at Three Mile Island and pooling in the bottom on the reactor, mixed with whatever they came in contact with. And, yes, they could eventually get into the ground water and the nearby cove and decimate anything living there. But I'm uncertain if the melted fuel would actually burn and create a deadly plume that would threaten large areas of Japan. Something like that happened at Chernobyl but it was a byproduct of a Hydrogen explosion igniting the graphite surrounding the fuel rods. We don't have the graphite at Fukushima.

Anyone else have any clues what might happen next?

I've already sent a message to the Union of Concerned Scientists. I don't know if they take weekends off.

Charley Noble


26 Mar 11 - 07:22 AM (#3121854)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

NHK... didn't quite catch the story... 1.5m deep water in a turbine building (I am not be positive) laced with high levels of iodine. This may be where the iodine found in the ocean 330m south of the plant is coming from. Electrical cables have to be laid to the turbine buildings.

Sketchy, but there it is.


26 Mar 11 - 07:58 AM (#3121884)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Jim Martin

BBC's latest:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12869184


26 Mar 11 - 10:30 AM (#3121957)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Here's what I can harvest this morning focused on volatile releases from melted nuclear fuel at the Fukushima 1 nuclear complex. The prognosis looks dreadful for the plant site itself but not a dire as Chernobyl for the downwind areas:

Union of Concerned Scientists teleconference transcript Friday, March 25

"REPORTER:

I'm seeing these sort of ominous reports from the Japanese Prime Minister, you know, warning of a breach in the reactor vessel of Unit 3, can you give us some kind of context to understand why, you know, how risky that is and just give me some sense of, you know, we've been hearing about this for weeks now and I actually, I mean, just give me a sense of what you guys know about this breach and what it could mean.

MR. LOCHBAUM: This is Dave Lochbaum, I'll start and then Ed can supplement. First of all, we're hearing reports of a reactor vessel breach on Unit 3, but the data is inconclusive as to whether that's actually what's going on. There could be other factors that could cause the reactor vessel integrity to be lost, for example, one of the relief valves could have stuck open. If it is, indeed, a reactor vessel breach, the consequences, or the most likely reason for that would be that the core has been damaged to the point of melting. Some of the molten mass fell down to the bottom of the reactor vessel and caused a hole, burned a hole or created a hole in the bottom of the reactor vessel, which became the breach. If that's the case, it's bad, because first of all, it indicates that the level of fuel damage went beyond blistering and cracking of the fuel rods, to the point of melting of fuel, which is a more severe form of fuel damage. And it was followed by a loss of integrity of the reactor vessel. If the reactor vessel remains intact, you always have the option or the ability to put water back into it to cool the fuel, even if it's damaged. If the reactor vessel has been breached, you face challenges in putting enough water in it and keeping the water in it rather than having it just drain back out through a hole in the bottom.

In the emergency procedures world, if you do lose the integrity of the reactor vessel, the option is to fill up the entire containment above the point where the breach has occurred so that you try to still cover up the fuel, even if the fuel has been relocated, part of the fuel may have relocated, and the reactor vessel integrity has been lost. So, you still have methods to deal with that, if that were to occur, but they're obviously much more severe than if you keep the reactor vessel intact and allow the fuel to remain where it was placed originally. Ed, is there anything to add to that?

DR. LYMAN: Just that, you know, until the core starts to degrade, as I mentioned at the beginning, a relatively small amount of radioactivity is actually released to the atmosphere, or to the reactor vessel and the coolant, and as the core starts to degrade, much higher quantities can be released. So, it's already been reported that the core has been exposed up to halfway for many days, I think that the expectation is that at least the part that was above the water line experienced extensive damage, and so the reactor vessel itself now probably might have up to, I don't know, 30 or 40 percent of some of the more volatile radionuclides like iodine and cesium in the vessel, then if the core melts through the bottom of the reactor vessel, and falls on the floor of the containment, it then can react to the concrete basement and that can generate additional gasses which will help sweep some of that material up and potentially out through a breach.

So, when all's said and done, something like 70 or 80 percent of the iodine, cesium and the fuel could actually be released to the containment atmosphere, and if the containment is breached, that's available for release. So, as bad as the releases have been so far, they could increase by several fold, ultimately, if this proceeds any further.

(SNIP)

REPORTER: What would be the worst case scenario if we have a reactor breach, and, you know, all this plutonium should just go to the sea of the ocean because it affects the sea life and the atmosphere. So, what can we impose -- what can we see as the worst?

DR. LYMAN: This is Ed Lyman.
I mean, worst case meaning that there's a breach of the reactor vessel, the core falls into the containment, it spreads out across the floor, and this would require the containment floor to be completely dry, which I'm not sure that would be the case, but if it were completely dry, it would spread out to the corners of the containment, or it could actually contact the containment liner and melt through the liner, and then you have a pathway directly from the core material to the environment.

So, then it depends on essentially how much of the radioactive isotopes that were contained in the core enter the atmosphere of the containment and then how much leak out from the containment.

There are numerous modeling and simulations over the years show that a high fraction of the isotopes like cesium and iodine would be released from the core material in this situation, and enter the atmosphere in the containment. There are a range of other isotopes, radioactive barium, tellurium, and strontium, all that have varying properties, and would be released to varying extents less than 100 percent. It could be on the order of five, ten, 20 percent, it depends.

Then there are the lowest volatile elements that include plutonium and certain lanthanides, and certain other actinides, like americium and uranium. Uranium actually under certain conditions could be released on the order of one to 10 percent, that was demonstrated in experiments over the last ten years, plutonium and the lowest volatile isotopes would be less than one percent, probably.

The ultimate consequences could exceed those at Chernobyl, because of the total inventory of radioactive material in the three reactors and potentially three spent fuel pools is many times what was in the core at Chernobyl. But the key is how much, what are the released fractions, and that's still highly uncertain.

But in this case, which is essentially a late containment failure, very late, weeks after the reactors originally scrammed, analyses typically show that there would be some -- well, first of all there's radioactive decay, like I said at the beginning, iodine, some other short list isotopes, significantly reduced, and to the extent that other parts of the reactor cooler, you might have played out, but it really has to do with when the timing of the containment failure in relation to the vessel breach.

So, if the vessel breaches and the containment failure is still delayed significantly, then you have more played out and less environmental release."

Much of this is still guesswork but at least it's guesswork by professionally trained nuclear engineers and scientists.

Charley Noble


26 Mar 11 - 11:27 AM (#3121994)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Thanks Charley... here's a snip from Lochbaum...

"But the real question you asked was how do you anticipate the next disaster and take steps to prevent it. And that's a challenge. It's easy to do, the difficult part, if it's done, and the harder challenge is then to get somebody to pay for the fixes for a problem that hasn't occurred.

It would be relatively easy now to get owners to pay for fixes for batteries and spent fuel maintenance and so on, that were known in advance, but nobody wanted to pay for them. This country is very good at closing the barn door, once it's opened, but not until then.

So, it's very difficult when you're dealing with low probability, high consequence events to pay for things except after the fact. I think that's true not only for the nuclear industry, but the airlines and space travel and so on. It's just a byproduct of high technology."


26 Mar 11 - 11:41 AM (#3122000)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Once I saw reactor 3 explode 4 or 5 thousand feet into the air I needed no guesswork as to the viability of reactor containment vessel #3. I wrote at the time it looked like a core breach is either certain or imminent.

Let me relate what happened at a similar reactor here in the US that is known as Yankee.

The NRC told the owners of the Mark 4 boiling water reactor that it was time to inspect the head/top of reactor fitting and that a shut down should be scheduled. The company decided that the cost of going offline for the weeks it would take to inspect the reactor head was prohibitive. They kept it online.

After another year had passed and it reached the time new fuel had to be loaded anyway the reactor was shut down and an inspection of the head was done.

The steel of the reactor is about 22cm thick but when they finally took a look, they found a hole the size of a pinapple and corrosion that had reduced the thickness of the containment vessel at the juncture to the head to be LESS THAN 1 cm.

btw theweight and number of spent fuel rods in water tanks exceeds all the fuel at Fukushima reactors and fuel ponds.


Back to Fukushima: corrosion of the vessel and head assembly is probably extensive, then they put corrosive sea water in them.

What do you think happened? I think that whatever was hanging on to thread finally broke. Since reactor 3 has between 5% to 10% plutonium in the containment vessel, this most deadly substance on Earth is now leaking into the sea, air and every living thing it touches or enters.


Al that is different this week is that they have admitted how "Grave and Serious" this disaster has become. It is no longer looming, it is here and it is here forever.
If there was ever a place they could safely store spent fuel it would have been done. There isn't. Whereever you throw this stuff away,, it is not away. Short of dropping it down a hole 25 niles deep into the mantle of the earth and pluggin the hole with 5 miles of boron and lead, there is no such thing as throwing it away.

and that is a fact.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
below is opinion only.

I weep not merely for the people who live in Japan for for all living things that are downwind or in the Japanese current.
Japanese people with a deep eviormental conscience feel that Earth has expressed its revenge.
The earth casting revenge upon Japan for a myriad of enviormental poisonings, wholesale murder of porpoise and whales and the evils of imperial war crimes, is a theme that is mentioned 8 times in the 1992 Godzilla vs. Mothra monster movie.
Adults in Japan grew up with a national legend of radioactivity accidents casting acts of revenge upon Japan by Earth itself.

Right or wrong the national psychological guilt over enviormetal poisoning with mecury and radiation in Japan is undeserved. I believe the United Sates of America bears more than half the respondsibility for crippling Japan with Mark 4 reactors.


26 Mar 11 - 01:31 PM (#3122068)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Historical data ignored.
The government ignored the history of previous quakes and tsunamis in the Tohoku region (including Fukushima Prefecture) and approved the construction of the plants.

In 869, July 13, the Jogan earthquake caused extensive damage in the region, and generated waves that left sand deposits as much as 2 kilometers (1,2 miles) inland. Descriptions in history texts suggest seismic thrust of magnitude c. 8.6.

Eastern and western Japan sit on different tectonic plates, with the Tohoku region sitting near the edge of a third. Experts calculated that an event the size of the one that hit in 869 were prone to take place every 800 to 1000 years.

Prof. Y. Suzuki, Research Center for Seismology, Volcanology and Disaster Mitigation, Nagoya Univ., told the Japan Times that safety measures were not sufficient. In 2005, extensive research determined that large tsunami could be generated of the tohuku coast; the government was in a position to take immediate action and ensure the safety of the nuclear power plants in Fukushima Prefesture. Warnings were based on historic fact as well as scientific date, Suzuki said.

So far, TEPCO has refused to admit that its precautions fell short. Fukushima plants 1 (Daiichi) and 2 (Daini) were designed to resist a 5.5 meter wave based on standards set by Japan Society for Civil Engineers. The utility said it simply didn't anticipate the 10-meter-plus tsunami. It claimed historical data were considered.

Other utilities-
Hokkaido Electric Power Co. announced that it will beef up tsunami measures at its Tomari nuclear plant, where current provisions are for a 9.8 meter wave. They had considerated that the 10 meter above sea level position would protect Tomari.

Experts point to the Hamaoka nuclear plant as being at the greatest risk, since it sits atop an area where a fourth plate meets Honshu's two main plates. A quake likely to exceed magnitude 8.0 is expected there. A major quake is expected every 150 years thers, the last, magnitude 8.4, hit in 1854.

CHIBU Electric Power revealed plans for a 12-meter wall around rhe Hamaoka complex. Damage there would be a "fatal blow" to Japan, said Kobe Univ. Prof. Ishibashi.

Experts point out that all plants need overhaul.

Above extracted from Japan Times, March 27, 2011, "Signs of Disaster Were There to See," Jun Hongo, staff writer.


26 Mar 11 - 01:38 PM (#3122074)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Donuel-

I certainly join you in grieving for the Japanese who will have to live with the evil legacy of these heavily damaged reactors and the radioactive waste that has gone up into the air and out into the bay.

And there will come a time for the praises and the blame, for those who acted heroically to contain the contain the damage and for those who made major mistakes in judgment and actions.

Charley Noble


26 Mar 11 - 01:44 PM (#3122080)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Although literary culture in Japan was at a high level over 1000 years ago (the first novel was written there in the 11th century, writers, poets and artists were held in high regard and historical and genealogic records have been preserved), some modern Japanese may regard parts of the histories as myth, much as we are skeptical of much of our more fragmentary western writings of that period.

I wonder that this may have contributed to historical data from that period being dismissed by modern engineers.


26 Mar 11 - 02:28 PM (#3122116)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Very interesting Q.


26 Mar 11 - 02:54 PM (#3122136)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

The modern engineers only had to look at recent quakes, like the 9.2 in Alaska in 1964, and other pretty darn big ones in the ring of fire...mg


26 Mar 11 - 03:46 PM (#3122173)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

mg-

Good point. The earthquake record worldwide was there to consider, but they evidently went with the more regional record.

Charley Noble


26 Mar 11 - 04:30 PM (#3122203)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Bad point.
Why use specifications for areas not on the tectonic plate boundaries involved?
That doesn't make sense. Very little would be constructed anywhere if that were done.


26 Mar 11 - 04:52 PM (#3122222)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

You wanna be a grasshopper or an ant?

Here's the grasshopper's design proposal for the 10.0 that is surely coming... drink up and forget building anything. Why bother?

I'm with the ants.


26 Mar 11 - 08:30 PM (#3122333)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Well, we could continue this argument but I do agree that science should dictate what the criteria should be. However, I could also suggest that that seldom happens when utility board members get involved.

One of the running problems with nuclear power has always been that the design has to be very good, the operation near flawless, or there is a risk of a catastrophic accident. No other energy source has so much public risk.

Charley Noble


26 Mar 11 - 09:18 PM (#3122351)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

True Charley. Absolutely true. On all counts.


26 Mar 11 - 10:07 PM (#3122361)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

The people running it have to be honest and transparent and have overseers and be answerable not only to their own countries but to neighboring ones at least. They can not be above the law, as seems to be the case in Japan, where they operated after being shut down for falsifying safety records. I think they should not be allowed to leave the country in a crisis and their finances should be able to be investigated. Temptations to cutting costs, especially by dishonesty and coverups, should be eliminated. They should be subject to international standards and submit to international inspections. First and foremost, do not trust people running this particular show. mg


27 Mar 11 - 06:54 AM (#3122490)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

NHK...

Tokyo Electric Power Company says it has detected radioactive materials 10-million-times normal levels in water at the No.2 reactor complex of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant.

The plant operator, known as TEPCO, says it measured 2.9-billion becquerels of radiation per one cubic centimeter of water from the basement of the turbine building attached to the Number 2 reactor.

The level of contamination is about 1,000 times that of the leaked water already found in the basements of the Number 1 and 3 reactor turbine buildings.

The company says the latest reading is 10-million times the usual radioactivity of water circulating within a normally operating reactor.
TEPCO says the radioactive materials include 2.9-billion becquerels of iodine-134, 13-million becquerels of iodine-131, and 2.3-million becquerels each for cesium 134 and 137.

These substances are emitted during nuclear fission inside a reactor core.

The company says the extremely contaminated water may stem from damaged fuel in the reactor, and are trying to determine how the leakage occurred.

University of Tokyo graduate school professor Naoto Sekimura says the leak may come from the suppression chamber of the Number 2 reactor, which is known to be damaged. The chamber is designed to contain overflows of radioactive substances from the reactor.

Sunday, March 27, 2011 13:44 +0900 (JST)



Radiation levels 40 percent higher than the yearly limit for the general public has been detected just over 30 kilometers from the Fukushima Daiichi power plant.

The Science Ministry says a reading of 1.4 millisieverts was taken on Wednesday morning in Namie Town northwest of the plant.

The government has not told residents outside the 30-kilometer radius of the plant to evacuate, or even to stay indoors.

Someone staying outdoors for 24-hours at that location would exceed the annual limit of one millisievert. The limit is based on a recommendation by the International Commission on Radiological Protection.

The science ministry obtained the reading after monitoring 10 locations outside the 30-kilometer zone, following reports that relatively high levels of radiation were found outside that area.

Radiation exerts now say the amount of radiation detected does not pose a health risk. But they advise residents in the area to stay alert for any possible rise in radiation levels, because the power plant is not likely to stop releasing radiation any time soon.

Sunday, March 27, 2011 08:53 +0900 (JST)


27 Mar 11 - 08:06 AM (#3122531)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Jim Martin

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12872707


27 Mar 11 - 08:49 AM (#3122561)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

There's news, but none of it is particularly good I'm sorry to say.


27 Mar 11 - 10:06 AM (#3122604)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

It doesn't look good to me this morning for the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex site or the adjacent bay, or anywhere downwind. The reports from CNN this morning cite radiation readings in the coolant system 10,000,000 times background which I find very alarming. There has to be melted fuel rods by this time in all three reactors and most likely four of the spent fuel pools, and some major breach in the primary containment of one or more of the units or in the wall of a spent fuel pool or two for those kind of readings.

Utility workers are going to attempt to recheck their radiation readings today. It's possible that their instruments were not set properly to get such extraordinarily high readings. I hope they made some sort of blunder.

Charley Noble


27 Mar 11 - 11:35 AM (#3122658)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Yesterday they reported 1,200 above normal then 8 hours later 10,000 above normal and last night 10,000,000 times above normal and now they said we really don;t have any good monitoring devices working in that area so we apologize for any confusion.


classic


27 Mar 11 - 11:42 AM (#3122665)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

I heard a piece of music that had rhythmic beeps representing each atmosphereic test of thermonuclear bombs. and long whines for plant disasters, not great but inspirational for a musical work to explore the subject further.


27 Mar 11 - 12:11 PM (#3122687)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

From Al Jazeera:

"The operator of Japan's Fukushima Daiichi quake-crippled nuclear complex has said a spike reported in radioactivity at the plant is a mistake.

Jiji Press quoted the Tokyo Electric Power (TEPCO) as saying on Sunday that the mistake - which indicated radiation levels 10 million times higher than normal - was due to confusion between readings of iodine and cobalt in the water.

The inaccurate reading had forced emergency workers to flee from the complex's Unit 2 reactor.

"The number is not credible," said TEPCO's spokesman, Takashi Kurita. "We are very sorry."

He said officials were taking another sample to get accurate levels, but did not know when the results would be announced.

The situation came as officials acknowledged there was radioactive water in all four of the Fukushima Daiichi complex's most troubled reactors, and as airborne radiation in Unit 2 measured 1,000 millisieverts per hour - four times the limit deemed safe by the government, Kurita said.

The plant has been crippled by an earthquake and a tsunami that devastated northeastern Japan two weeks ago, sparking fears of high levels of radiation.

Officials say they still do not know where the radioactive water is coming from, though government spokesman Yukio Edano has said some is "almost certainly" seeping from a cracked reactor core in one of the units.

While the discovery of the high radiation levels - and the evacuation of workers from one reactor unit - again delayed efforts to bring the deeply troubled complex under control, Edano insisted the situation had partially stabilised.

"We have somewhat prevented the situation from turning worse," he told reporters Sunday evening.

"But the prospects are not improving in a straight line and we've expected twists and turns. The contaminated water is one of them and we'll continue to repair the damage."

The discovery over the last three days of radioactive water has been a major setback in the mission to get the plant's crucial cooling systems operating more than two weeks after a massive earthquake and tsunami."

Charley Noble


27 Mar 11 - 12:15 PM (#3122691)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

People seem to like Edano and suggest he might be the next Prime Minister. If you have a measurement, and presumably several, why do you not know when you plan to release the information? mg


27 Mar 11 - 12:42 PM (#3122708)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

from NHK...

Tokyo Electric Power Company has retracted its announcement that 10 million times the normal density of radioactive materials had been detected in water at the Number 2 reactor of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant.

The utility says it will conduct another test of the leaked water at the reactor's turbine building.

The company said on Sunday evening that the data for iodine-134 announced earlier in the day was actually for another substance that has a longer half-life.

The plant operator said earlier on Sunday that 2.9 billion becquerels per cubic centimeter had been detected in the leaked water.

It said although the initial figure was wrong, the water still has a high level of radioactivity of 1,000 millisieverts per hour.

Sunday, March 27, 2011 22:02 +0900 (JST)


27 Mar 11 - 01:07 PM (#3122733)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

From articles in Japan Times-
Japan is re-evsluating is energy plans, but no new policy will be agreed upon for some time.
The current basic energy plan, June 2010, called for nuclear power to be the "core source of energy in the medium and long term," and outlined a program of at least 14 new reactors by 2030, with nine slated for completion by 2020.
Following the disaster at the Fukushima plant at Tohoku, local communities may not agree to host new plants.

Since there is no alternative, abandoning atomic energy seems to be unrealistic. More thermal plants have been suggested, but lead-in time is about ten years.

Both the Japan Times and the New York Times carry finger-pointing articles, as academics and scientists point to missed or ignored indicators of large tsunamis on the part of both government and energy companies.

Both surface, and as far as I can determine from sketchy groundwater info on the net, groundwaters in this part of Tohoku carry runoff to the sea.
Tepco is criticized for conflicting radioactivity measurements, but with damaged instruments at critical points, it is hard to get accurate data.

NISA's Nishiyama said the levels of radioactive iodine at reactor no. 2, 1000 millisieverts/hour and more, definitely indicate a nuclear fission source, but he believes that the core and containment vessel are still intact and that the radioactive water may be seeping from damaged pipes and valves.


27 Mar 11 - 02:24 PM (#3122794)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

TTokyo Electric Power Company has announced a correction of its radiation figures for the water in the Unit 2 reactor building. It's not 10,000,000 more than background, just 100,000. Whew! I was beginning to worry. Don't you all feel better as well?

Charley Noble


27 Mar 11 - 03:25 PM (#3122850)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

I do feel better. I would send in I Like Math Barbie but for sure she is not real.

The electric company has "declined" an independent monitor. Why are they in a position to "decline" anything? Again I ask, who is running this country and this disaster.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ap_on_bi_ge/as_japan_earthquake

Why is there not martial law at least for this company? I would imagine because they have insured it through graft and corruption and perhaps worse. There is a big article in the Oregonian today about how the government is "urging" TEPCO to "come clean." Why is there urging as opposed to insisting. I presume there is great fear of TEPCO for some reason, or whoever owns TEPCO. Plus TEPCO probably has said, go ahead and shut us down. We don't want to stay anyway but we have the secret drawings that can possibly save the day and they are hidden in a vault somewhere.

Something is really really wrong and it is not just dubious (and I am being so kind here) engineering and lack of planning for emergencies.

Something is really really wrong with the government. Are they puppets? Who is pulling the strings? mg


27 Mar 11 - 03:46 PM (#3122861)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

NHK, March 27, 22:02, now says that TEPCO says the level is 1000 microsieverts for the Iodine-134, which is still very high- see comment by Nishiyama, above. NHK on line.

The 'false' reading was for another substance with a longer half-life.
They did not name it- any guesses, Charley?

The toxic 'puddles' are being removed (Japan Times)

Soil samples are being checked for plutonium by independent labs.

NHK Japan TV is available here as a pay channel. The cable company opened it yesterday free, but unless one speaks Japanese, it is no help.
I did watch a cooking show, because it was filmed in London and had the Japanese translator superimposed.
It was about cooking eels. They showed a Londoner preparing eel pie, then a chef with a rather complicated recipe (both recipes given in detail). I added eel to my list of things to avoid.


27 Mar 11 - 04:18 PM (#3122882)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Q-

Cesium-137 is the next most likely candidate with a half-life of 30 years, or 300 to 600 years to return to background level depending how conservative one is.

I'm glad to hear they were cooking the eels. I hate it when you try to swallow them uncooked and they begin squirming...

I was listening to one CNN expert being quizzed today on what the worst case scenario might be from this point. After some hemming and hawing, he suggested a lava of molted core material escaping from the primary containment and spilling out onto the grounds of the site and then into the bay. I would add that I'm not sure what there is in such a lava's path that would be flammable, but if there were something there would certainly be a very dangerous fire spewing radioactive volatiles into the atmosphere. Very bad news for anyone downwind.

Charley Noble


27 Mar 11 - 04:46 PM (#3122896)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Q... I get it here in English... dunno why you can't.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/index.html


27 Mar 11 - 05:01 PM (#3122903)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

Could they not build a wall very high around the area? Cement. Perhaps a moat? Oh..Cement must be brought in from CHina. Too late. mg


27 Mar 11 - 06:36 PM (#3122945)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Gnu- I get the English NHK news on the net like you-I have quoted from it occasionally. The channel I was speaking of is much like NBC or whatever, with drama, sports, and all that stuff in addition to short newscasts, for the general Japanese audience.

If we subscribe, we can get a couple of Italian TV channels, Deutsche Welle, Indonesian, Arabic, Indian, Greek and all that furrin stuff. Only BBC America and BBC News America from UK, however. The UK channels seen over there are left out- objections from Canadian and U. S. networks??

Thanks, Charley. The Caesium is a likely candidate- don't know why they didn't name it.
If material from the primary containment escaped, I doubt that it would go far as a flow- but escaping into the air and into groundwater is still a worst case scenario.
It seems to be getting to the stage where reactors 1 and 2 will have to be buried.


27 Mar 11 - 09:47 PM (#3123026)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

mg-

Melted reactor fuel will eat its way though a wall of concrete as it does through a thick wall of stainless steel. It's really hard to stop as long as there is a good supply of it.

Is something now being reported for reactor Unit 1?

I'm not expecting that tomorrow's news will be better.

Charley Noble


27 Mar 11 - 11:19 PM (#3123050)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

mg sincerely asked why. Why?

Because TEPCO is a private company and much prefers doing or not doing anything it damn well pleases to profit in a manner that is in keeping with the super capitalistic goals of a free marketplace.
Are any of you communists going to argue with that?
I didn't think so.

bottom line

It is their business and none of your business.
_______________________________________________


27 Mar 11 - 11:29 PM (#3123054)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

I would think there would be some limits on a private company, even one that seems to own the government. I am certainly not against private companies or capitalism, but with pretty sound boundaries, and in cases where the ecology and economy of the country and other countries is in jeopardy, then have a way to pull the plug on them. I hope if they are allowed to operate in the future (by whom??) they are limited to solar and wind energy and maybe tide but they could probably screw that up. mg


27 Mar 11 - 11:55 PM (#3123062)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Aint no limits

Did you happen to catch the 93 Trillion dollar rip off scheme back in 1998?

The great home harvest?
The culling of the herd?
The Honey harvest from middle class hives only?

The great derivitive perogative?

Limits are things like laws, regulations, collective bargaining, taxation etc.


Of course for a free market economy to work, the most essential factor would be that everyone would self moderate their desires, passions and become purely obcessive about their objectives.

Its not a free market when all there is are 3 branches of too big to fail monopolies: banking, health and energy.


28 Mar 11 - 12:05 AM (#3123063)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

What we see is the result of business as usual.

It is failing now, and even if we stopped all the madness...
The waste will always be waste and is unique in that it will always be a huge problem.
This nuke business is counting on some way to tell people 12,000 years from now to get away. The check is in the mail.

We can't even agree on what an old testament meant, and its only been around a few thousand years.


28 Mar 11 - 08:10 AM (#3123263)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

I expect there now will be some serious speculation on the enormous economic and environmental impact of this continuing disaster.

I fully expected that at some point TEPCO and or the Japanese Government would have to acknowledge that the tons of salt water they'd been spraying on the damaged reactor buildings was draining somewhere as a highly radioactive spill. Some has obviously already made its way to the adjacent bay.

It's time to rename this thread to "Nuclear Plant Disaster Continuing," for it will unfortunately continue for the foreseeable future.

Charley Noble


28 Mar 11 - 10:34 AM (#3123347)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

The unbelievable idiots told the workers standing in seawater doing electrical work to put plastic bags over their street shoes rather than having special footwear. I would assume that an electrician would have his or own special footwear for wet conditions, not nuclear conditions, but even so...why are these idiots basically controlling the destiny of at least part of their country, region, or perhaps the oceans of the world?   I never in a million years would have predicted this level of stupidity from Japan, but that is what it is. It is totally beyond my comprehension.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/radiation-levels-reach-new-highs-as-conditions-worsen-for-workers/2011/03/27/AFsMLFiB_print.html


28 Mar 11 - 12:00 PM (#3123394)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Charley... "...that the tons of salt water they'd been spraying on the damaged reactor buildings was draining somewhere as a highly radioactive spill."

Hmmm... unless a pool(s) was filled to overflowing or a core(s) was breeched, that wouldn't be the case. Of course, it could have been the case but I think it's more likely that there's a piping/valve breech. In any case, they had to do what they had to do.


28 Mar 11 - 12:48 PM (#3123424)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Now the Fukushima-1 nuclear plant officials are acknowledging, via CNN at noon, that they discovered plutonium in the soil a week ago outside the reactor buildings. There is no explanation how plutonium (a highly toxic long-lived radioactive element) might have been deposited there but there had to be some kind of break in Unit 3, the other reactor at the complex that uses a composite plutonium-Uranium fuel. So was it from a breach in the spent fuel pool wall or the reactor primary containment? And was it borne out of the reactor building in one of the hydrogen explosions?

Charley Noble


28 Mar 11 - 12:54 PM (#3123426)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Here's a depressing link showing what is evidently functioning in the control room of one of the Fukushima-1 reactors as posted and discussed by the Union of Concerned Scientists: click here for update!

The only thing electrical that appears to be functioning are the overhead lights. I hope they remember to turn them off when they abandon the building.

Charley Noble


28 Mar 11 - 12:59 PM (#3123427)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

If the above updates are not enough to alarm you, try this update from NIRS commenting on what can be seen from a recent helicopter video of the damaged reactor buildings:

"A striking video taken yesterday morning from a helicopter above Fukushima shows incredible damage and continuing radioactive steam leaks.

According to this report from the Japan Atomic Industrial Forum, the video appears to show that a heavy crane fell onto the fuel pool at Unit 3 and may have damaged the pool."

If you go to the NIRS website you can access the video.

Charley Noble


28 Mar 11 - 01:06 PM (#3123430)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

NHK... "16 tons of water was being injected into the reactor every hour but TEPCO now says it wants to reduce the amount to 7 tons. This would be enough to replace the amount that is evaporating."

Water in turbine buildings 1,2,and 3 and in the mecahical/electrical "trench" (I assume tunnel) between the turbine buildings and the ocean is contaminated.

I think Charley may be right on this one.

What a nightmare.


28 Mar 11 - 01:11 PM (#3123433)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Can't find the video Charley.


28 Mar 11 - 01:22 PM (#3123438)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

That UCS update is, ah, er... interesting, to say the VERY least.

I am not even a fan of the CANDU anymore.


28 Mar 11 - 02:08 PM (#3123485)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

I think he means this video:

http://www.youtube.com/user/modchannel#p/a/u/0/ZKFGavZ_rf4


28 Mar 11 - 02:09 PM (#3123489)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Not much to add to Charley's posts.

Nissan is considering moving engine plants to U. S. Toyota is trying limited production, but some parts will soon run out.
Much of industry still shut down.
Loss of power from Fukushima affecting industry all across Japan.


Last night Japanese television carried a highschool baseball game with Tohoku as one of the teams, and a very strong one. The Tohoku area is where the Fukushima complex is.


28 Mar 11 - 02:18 PM (#3123499)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

NHK... 20k+ US troops on the way for distribution of supplies. 134 nations have offered help. 26 nations have sent supplies. 20 nations have emergency teams in Japan. US military sending radiation gear for workers (Demron suits perhaps?). US fresh water barges on the way.


28 Mar 11 - 03:14 PM (#3123542)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Thanks Jack.


28 Mar 11 - 04:25 PM (#3123588)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

It really takes a team to pull all the threads together. Thanks for the work.

I generally find what the Union of Concerned Scientists have to say much more informed and straightforward than anything provided by the media, as they should be. At times they appear puzzled by what is happening as well, trying to sift the tea leaves or read between the lines of the various press statements from Japan and our own NRC. And they are challenged, as they admit, attempting to envision what might happen next. So I think they're a good reality check on the evolving disaster.

I did request that Joe Offer change the thread title. Disaster, I believe, is well beyond "looming."

Charley Noble


28 Mar 11 - 04:34 PM (#3123596)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Well, Charley, according to the top American on site advising the Japanese, it still is looming... not nearly as bad as Chernobyl YET (viedo on NHK). But, it sure looks like it has the potential to be far worse.

You could start a new thread and link the two if you want.


28 Mar 11 - 04:50 PM (#3123608)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Japan Times, staff writers Nagata and Takahara
"Radioactive water keeps workers out"
"Turbine room floods linked to sea"
"Reactor turbine basements flooded with highly radioactive materials kept a desperate effort to stabilize the Fukushima No. 1 power plant at bay Monday, as fresh data showed that nearby seawater was being contaminated further by the lesking facility."
Effforts by TEPCO to restore the cooling systems for reactors 1 through 4, as well as their spent-fuel storage pools, continue to be halted by the radioactive water which is now at lethal levels.

Trenches below the turbine buildings have radiation as strong as 1,000 millisieverts/hour- the same as in the turbine buildings.
Since the trenches exits are only about 55 to 70 meters from the sea, TEPCO officials are worried that the highly poluted water could overflow from the trenches and out to the sea.

A board member of Citizens' Nuclear Information Center said it may tale even a month to pump out the toxic water, restore damaged cooling facilities and bring the reactors under control to end the crisis.
Eventually the plant may need to be encased in concrete, like Chernobyl was, he said.

Prof, Furukawa, Nagoya Univ., emeritus on nuclear energy, said workers can probably work only up to ten minutes at a time.
"Although water in the no. 1 turbine has been pumped into a container tank, TEPCO has not yet come up with ways to remove the flooding at the other three turbine buildings. "
"Having been unable to find effective ways to move forward, TEPCO seems to be visibly confused by the situation and has botched some of its announcements of crucial monitoring data."

Extracted from the article,
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20110329al.html


28 Mar 11 - 04:57 PM (#3123615)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

Could they repump the water? Is it cool enough? Too contaminated? Can they not think in terms of containment by cementing outer buildings around the blown up buildings?

Again, why can they not cement the rods? Because they would keep on burning and the cement or sand would drive them into the ground?

Is there any way to raise them? Oops crane broke. Slide cement under them? Make individual containers for them?

mg


28 Mar 11 - 04:59 PM (#3123618)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

source nextbigfuture.com

deaths per terawatt hour

Coal 161
Nuclear .04



----------------------

However what about 2, 4, 6, 12 thousands years from now when the steel and concrete exposes all the used nuclear fuel?

With nuclear power all the poisonous death is shoved into the future where none of us live.

What looks like a good deal even to some enviormentalists, is in fact the greatest treason ever committed to the future planet Earth.


28 Mar 11 - 05:01 PM (#3123621)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Talk about yer gold plated CF.


28 Mar 11 - 05:09 PM (#3123635)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

I again believe the title looming
should have been chnaged when reactor #3 containing plutonium exploded thousands of feet into the air in what was clearly not just a hydrogen explosion, but a super pressurized containment vessel breach.

Yes of curse there is a large plutonium release.


The list of increasingly rare things

Nissan ZX 2012
Kobi beef
Japanese vegetables
Dolphin slaughters
Whale hunting
safe Toyotas
Japanese Lithium batteries
Japanese apple components for i pad


Speculators have already placed their bets on some of those commodities.


28 Mar 11 - 05:45 PM (#3123683)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

salmon that comes to US swimming from Korea?

Salmon in vicinity anyway?

Other fish?

Shellfish?

You can scrape up contaminated soil and do something with it but you can't do that with water. Well, look at the bright side. Perhaps it will bond with the plastic bits in the ocean and be transformed into fairy dust to be combed through the hair of mermaids.

But less rare day by day will be lies because there will be more eyes on this collection of fools and criminals and more independent monitoring. And the truth will hurt but in the long run, perhaps very long, good comes out of almost every bad thing. mg


28 Mar 11 - 06:48 PM (#3123712)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

A gold plated cluster fuck 999? Yeah, the silver cloud lining on this one is too silvery, too shiney and too deadly.

As I said above, I was a fan of CANDU and I would have supported LePreau 2 (New Brunswick, Canada) with a CANDU and definitely not the French reactor being considered. Not now. I read up on the spent fuel storage and disposal for the CANDU. The CANDU reactor appears much safer but the spent fuel storage certainly does not. Plus, at the present technology, given the obvious fact that Mother Nature is a bitch, the only safe course is "no". Coal sucks big time but it doesn't fuck over the entire planet in the blink of an eye.


28 Mar 11 - 08:48 PM (#3123761)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

From a photo of the reactors, do you see that little enclosed harbor in front of the plant? That is where the most deadly radioactive water with PU and U in it is leaking its contents into the sea.


28 Mar 11 - 10:02 PM (#3123797)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Mr Shumitsu, the man in charge of the FUkushima nuclear plant owned by TEPCO has suffered a breakdown. He has been in total seclusion in his office and has not been seen in public for over a week. The last thang he said in response to a question posed workers under his command "I'll get back to you on that"

he never did.


29 Mar 11 - 08:08 AM (#3124010)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Donuel-

"when reactor #3 containing plutonium exploded thousands of feet into the air in what was clearly not just a hydrogen explosion, but a super pressurized containment vessel breach."

You may well be correct on this. Reviewing the video, the explosion does appear more powerful, more components being hurled high into the air. I wonder how the Union of Concerned Scientists would assess that video.

Charley Noble


29 Mar 11 - 09:02 AM (#3124049)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

I've just reviewed the transcript posted by the Union of Concerned Scientists for Monday's teleconference. It's fascinating and lengthy as one might expect.

First, the better news. They evidently believe that conventional but improvised cooling has been now restored to all the reactors on site and all their cooling pools. The reactors are now being cooled with fresh water but most of the spent fuel pools are still being cooled with sea water. But temperatures are stabilizing.

Unfortunately, whatever storage space they have for radioactively contaminated water is overwhelmed so that it is spreading throughout the turbine halls, the tunnels underneath, through various conduits, out into the bay or onto the grounds.

They're not sure where the non-volatile plutonium came from; it could have come from either the spent fuel pools or the reactor vessels when liquid was vented or escaped through a breach. They didn't mention the explosion of Unit 3 as a possible source.

Here are two answers to reporters' questions which sum up the state of the disaster at this point:

"REPORTER: My question would be, given some of the misinformation we had this weekend and the struggle that you're having with the data that you get, are you getting more or less sure about what really is going on there?

MR. LOCHBAUM: This is Dave Lochbaum.

I think we're pretty sure there's a disaster going on. It's the nature of the disaster, how the materials are getting into the various buildings that's not so clear, whether it's damage from the spent fuel pool or damage from the reactor core. But in terms of what needs to be done, that's somewhat irrelevant.

There's a lot of radioactivity outside of containment barriers that's posing a threat to both workers and the public that needs to be addressed as the top priority. There was progress made, as I mentioned earlier, on getting more normal injection of fresh water into the reactor cores, but that's more of a detail phase. There's been clear signs of damage done to date that aren't going to go away any time soon, that will continue to pose a hazard to both workers and the public, and a lot needs to be done to regain control over that material and limit, to the extent possible, how much of it gets out from the site.

REPORTER: I guess as a question, it's sort of hard for us out here to understand if things are getting better or worse, you know, if the list of things that needs to be done -- that's a good point that we sort of end up losing in the weeds, but if that list of what needs to be done is getting longer or shorter or if it's to be expected given the nature of this disaster.

MR. LOCHBAUM: Yeah. I think -- this is Dave Lochbaum again.

I think the good news is, you know, absent any further casualties, they've pretty much limited how much fuel damage has occurred to what has already happened. They have regained control of water injection on all six spent fuel pools or seven spent fuel pools and are putting water into the reactor cores on Units 1, 2, and 3. So, whatever damage has been done seems to have been done. Things could get worse. They could have some more equipment failures that lead to more damage of the fuel, but it seems like the fuel damage to date has already been done.

The bad news is that there's a lot of fuel damage that has occurred that's caused the release of a lot of radioactivity into some damaged structures, and that radioactivity has gotten to places that it shouldn't be, like the turbine buildings. So, therefore, even though the amount of fuel damage may have been retarded and there won't be any more in the future, quite a lot has happened to date, and that poses a challenge to make sure that as little as possible of that large amount of radioactivity that's been released, at least into the building, gets released into the environment. That's going to be a challenge.

So, I think the phase of the accident has moved from core damage, release of material, into management of the material that's been released or discharged from the damaged fuel."

But please review the entire transcript so you can be as impressed and depressed as I.

Oh, I got a PM from Joe Offer. He still doesn't think it's appropriate to change the thread title. I respectfully disagree.

Charley Noble


29 Mar 11 - 10:08 AM (#3124093)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

This situation brings to mind a joke I heard years ago from Pat Sky.


Fellow was talking with his grandson.

"When I was growing up, we had no money. My brother and I never went to church or school on the same days because we had only one pair of pants and we had to share. It was the same for shoes, and we never had socks. We ate once a day, but not all the time. We slept on the floor because our furniture was repossessed. Baths were cold because we had no way to heat the water or the apartment. Things were tough. And THEN came the Great Depression!"


29 Mar 11 - 10:31 AM (#3124101)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

SUPER GOOD UNBELIEVABLE NEWS

The manager of Fukushima reactors 1-6 has sought the counsel of the world's foremost authority on cleaning up gigantic disastrous messes. The forecast of 12 to 24 years required to clean up the 4 reactors that have melted down, the surrounding country side as far as Tokyo and 2 million sq. miles of ocean water, IS NOW OBSOLETE!

With the methods devised by AIEAC scientist T Geisel PHD emeritus the entire clean up may only take a matter of hours, once the entire amount of Nuclear fuel consisting of MOX, new fuel U 258 and the collection of all spent fuel assemblies are fully exposed and evenly distributed.
This will consist of 25 separate steps which will in the short run make the disaster appear to grow worse with each step introduced.
However the final 26th step of exposing all contamination, to Z particles it will be as though the disaster never happened.

The process is a Vitrification of Oxide Moderators or VOOM. The many step process of exposing the radioactive fuel to various progressive particles essentially oxidizes the fuel thereby reducing its half life at each step until finally a Z particle renders the fuel as safe as lead. Japan can then truck off and bury the lead and everything will be as good as new.

While this process has been theorized for nearly 55 years, this will be the first time it is done on a grand scale. To read a book about this amazing process you can find it on Amazon, com under the cat in the hat comes back.
Technically the entire time to achieve a safe clean environment will be a matter of minutes at the final stage. The preparation for finality will take several weeks or months depending upon unforeseen circumstances.


29 Mar 11 - 11:31 AM (#3124139)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

post #666 was comedic relief.


29 Mar 11 - 11:46 AM (#3124151)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Donuel-

Your post above has liquidated another keyboard.

I've been weighing the pros and cons of posting panel by panel the comic book we published way back in 1986-87 during our third unsuccessful attempt to shut down the Maine Yankee nuclear power plant. I may do so yet as a photo album on my Facebook page. It's not quite as funny as we thought it was at the time. Old humor can sometimes bite the hand that fed it!

Back to the problem at hand...

Charley Noble


29 Mar 11 - 12:17 PM (#3124178)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Here is a glossary for nuclear jargon

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf51.html#V


29 Mar 11 - 12:18 PM (#3124181)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Stringsinger

Nuclear energy in the U.S. is at the hands of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission which is owned outright by the nuclear industry who puts profits above safety and that includes Japan's company as well.

Nuclear energy is fission-based. There has been talk about a fusion-based use which reputedly recycles waste into energy.

I don't think there is any political will in the world today that is on the part of the nuclear industry to protect the environment, the people, and put profits second.

In the meantime, Obama is tilting at windmills on this issue.

The hazardous materials build up, affect the environment and people's health,
are rationalized by corporations who stand to profit from their position, and
pay off the pseudo-scientific babblers to support their P.R. claims.

The nukes are coming. Be afraid.


29 Mar 11 - 01:08 PM (#3124213)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

I don't want them to feel bad enough to have nervous breakdowns or take final desperate measures to their own lives etc...I want them to feel the pain of responsibility enough that they devote the rest of their lives to clean energy or public service. I think those who were found to have doctored books, compromised on engineering etc. should have pensions reduced to that of whatever a teacher or nurse would get, probably not legally possible, and of course face whatever laws they have there. I think they, and we, need to start from ground zero in many aspects of engineering and see what they are engineering for and against. Remember, someone, I don't know who, has convinced generaitons of people that air vents are a perfectly good substitute for windows, not taking into account human error, like blocking them, failing to clean or maintain them etc. Small example, but human laziness, failure to follow instructions, lack of information or education etc. have got to be engineered into every devise or plan. I was never ocnvinced this was the case and now I am sure. mg


29 Mar 11 - 02:19 PM (#3124247)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Clean energy, for the next 50 years, will be limited in its usefulness.
Solar and wind have been proposed. What is involved? The following are my assessment of current solar possibilities, with aid from "How Stuff Works."
SOLAR-
Solar energy technology could be sufficient to service homes in much of the world. This may be done individually, or collectively by a commercial or cooperative company.
Individual- how many people can afford to make the installation necessary?
The average house requires c. 14000 watt hours/day. This requires 285 square feet of solar panels.
Because of cloudy days, a battery bank, inverter, etc. are needed in the installation.
Solar panels- $16,000
Battery bank, etc. Another $16,000.
Could be required for new homes, but for most people in older homes, retrofitting
appliances, roof, adding labor costs, control room, etc. would require a mortgage addition. Cost prohibitive for most.
In the U. S. and Canada, state and provincial rights prevent nationwide regulation.

Retrofitting apartment towers and comdominia is doubtfully economic.

The alternative, large commercial solar panel fields with transmission lines to towns have many drawbacks- from withdrawing large parcels of land from agricultural, livestock, recreational, wildlife and other uses. Costs of auxilliary equipment high.

For northern sites- settlements in northern Europe, Asia and North America- solar power must be supplemented as it is not feasible for exclusive use.

Local zoning and preferences. No overall plan is possible. The federal government cannot override state laws, and the people and their communities vote their preferences.

Solar power for industrial purposes- Impossible!

To power industry, only fossil fuels and nuclear technology available with present technology. How long to develop otrher technology? At least 50 years if large budget allowances made.

Similar problems exist for wind power proposals.


29 Mar 11 - 02:38 PM (#3124260)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

My solar cost estimates did not provide for air-conditioning, if wanted- add $16,000 to panel and installation costs.


29 Mar 11 - 02:52 PM (#3124268)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

Well, the other thing we fail to take into account is human ingenuity and enterprise. People are very flexible and adaptable, and can, if necessary, drive less, wear more clothing, have higher per person houses, go back to how their ancestors lived somewhat.

There are economic solutions to some of the solar problems mentioned..such as amoritization by power companies, who would install and own the panels or windmills.

How does Denmark do it? How do others do it?

Does not have to be fossil fuels..certainly could be algae fuels or waste or pig manure etc..would have to look at industry by industry basis..how much fuels the physical plant and how much the actual machinery. There probably are ways to separate electricity sources.

People who are either forced to by economics or are induced to by economics, or social pressure, or whatever, can individually and collectively find ways to reduce, share, use utilities when cheapest, program machinery to do same, and invent new ways of doing stuff.

Another thing that has to happen is to release inventions and patents that already exist. I do not believe for a moment that big oil or big nuclear or whatever does not have lots of things in their back pocket and are able to turn things pretty rapidly around when they realize they must. mg


29 Mar 11 - 02:55 PM (#3124271)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

Another thing..they said 2 workers were "splashed" with radioactive water wearing waterproof, supposedly, garments, but were soaked to their underwear. It did not say submerged in radioactive water, or soaked..just splashed. How does waterproof garment not keep you waterproof? Who is clothing these heroic workers? And giving them plastic bags to put over street shoes to stand in radioactive water while doing electrical work? Surely not Hannah Montana..oh she is not real..but if she were she would know better. mg


29 Mar 11 - 03:01 PM (#3124273)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

There are some lyrics in this song that are poetically appropos. My apologies if you don't care for this type of tune.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iCTt2ZfcAM


29 Mar 11 - 03:26 PM (#3124292)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Meanwhile back in Japan:

From the Los Angeles Times (3/29/2011):

"Japanese Prime Minister Naoto Kan for the first time criticized the TEPCO, which owns the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, for inadequate preparations for a tsunami at the facility. The sea wall at the plant was designed to withstand an 18-foot wave, while the actual tsunami that struck after the magnitude 9 Tohoku earthquake was estimated to be more than 40 feet high.

"It's undeniable their assumptions about tsunamis were greatly mistaken," Kan said Tuesday of Tokyo Electric Power Co. in an address to the Japanese parliament. "The fact that their standards were too low invited the current situation."

Kan also criticized the company for placing the backup diesel generators, which were to provide power to the emergency cooling system, in the basements of reactor buildings, where they were swamped by seawater and disabled.

(SNIP!)

At the plant, meanwhile, workers were piling sandbags at the ends of tunnels near the coast as water levels inside the tunnels rose and threatened to spill out into the ocean. The water is highly radioactive and international law forbids its release into the sea, although the radiation would most likely be dispersed to the point where it was inconsequential.

Experts fear it could damage ocean life in the immediate vicinity of the plant, however.

Engineers are attempting to pump water out of the tunnels to restore access to the areas where workers have been attempting to restore power to the stricken facility, but are running out of places to store the radioactive water until its radiation levels can decay."

We used to propose (internal gossip) that Maine get rid of its nuclear waste by fusing it into ceramic seagulls and selling it to tourists who would take it with them when they left the State. But we all agreed that would be WRONG!

Charley Noble


29 Mar 11 - 03:49 PM (#3124310)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Glow in the dark shithawks? Yeah, sounds like a bad idea.


29 Mar 11 - 04:17 PM (#3124335)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

They are not even being fed properly or given more than one blanket. Come on. This is more than I would have thought possible.

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110329004944.htm

IT is a country full of engineers and robots. If a land robot can't get close enough with food then get a floating one if place is soaked with water. Or catapult stuff. Or get another crane and dangle it outside a window. Or, trucks are getting through. How about suiting up TEPCO executives as well as whoever let the inspections pass falsely and ignored obvious talk of tsunami strength, and letting them drive the stuff into the compound. Safe enough for the workers, safe enough for the executives. mg


29 Mar 11 - 04:54 PM (#3124345)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

mg-

It's truly a miserable situation and I like your modest proposal.

Speaking of gallows humor, I've just posted a 1987 anti-nuclear power propaganda comic that a good friend published during our campaign to close the Maine Yankee nuclear power plant; here's a public link to my Facebook album: Click here!

This is strong propaganda and you should read it only if you have a strong stomach.

Charley Noble


29 Mar 11 - 04:56 PM (#3124347)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

.... and a facebook membership.


29 Mar 11 - 05:21 PM (#3124358)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

It's public, you don't need a Facebook membership. I haven't got one and I just read it.


29 Mar 11 - 05:22 PM (#3124360)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

The recriminations are flying, most of them after-the-fact.

Japan societies of civil engineers, mechanical engineers, nuclear engineers, etc. who generally approved at time of construction.
Government in power at time of construction.
Government in power now.
People of Fukushima Prefecture who wanted jobs that the development would bring.
Management of TEPCO at time of construction, and now.
NOT GENERALLY REPORTED-
General Electric and Hitachi- GE designed the plants; they were built 80% Hitachi, 20% GE.
NOTE- Hitachi built the plant.
Failure to consult historical record- Originally Hitachi; later TEPCO could have made improvements. TEPCO as operator could have demanded changes be made by Hitachi.
Stockholders of TEPCO, who demanded good dividends- many thousands of individuals, investment houses including banks worldwide, insurance companies, pension funds.
-------------------

General Electric Power and Water CEO Steve Bolze defended the company's boiling water reactors, including those at the Fukushima Daiichi complex.
GE and Bolze have "assembled 1000 specialists, including retirees, at an emergency center in Wilmington, North Carolina, where GE-Hitachi is based."
The company is sending 10 truck-mounted gas turbines to help restore power at Daiichi reactors.
GE-Hitachi are shielded from liability by Japan's channeling laws, according to Omer Brown, a lawyer who is a member of the International Atomic Energy Agency's Nuclear Liability Expert Group. Japan assigns nuclear accident liability solely to the operators.

This mostly from Bloomberg, "GE $1 Billion Nuclear Unit at Risk as Nations Mull Atomic Future," March 16, 2011.


29 Mar 11 - 06:18 PM (#3124392)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Well, I think we're all well and truly b*ggered to be honest, sooooooo...anyone for Credit Card Shopping?

You may never have to pay it back, look on the bright side...



>>>"GE $1 Billion Nuclear Unit at Risk as Nations Mull Atomic Future," March 16, 2011.<<<<

There is no *future* in Atomic. That's always been the problem.

There's future in candles though...and horses..and manpower...and wind power and sun power and 'let's stop being so goddamned greedy' power...

Simplicity is the New Black....


29 Mar 11 - 07:35 PM (#3124429)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Thanks Jack... I didn't even bother to click when I saw "facebook". Figured I couldn't.


29 Mar 11 - 08:07 PM (#3124440)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Thanks, Jack, for pointing out that the "public link" permits anyone to access Facebook.

However, the resolution of the images as filtered by Faebook is not as sharp as what I see from the JPG images on my monitor and I probably should rescan the individual panels. Anyone else able to read what's in the balloons?

I did see an interview with David Lochbaum (from the Union of Concerned Scientists) this evening and he was asked his assessment of the similar nuclear plants in the States. His initial reply was they were every bit as safe as the ones in Japan, and upon further questioning flatly said they were equally vulnerable to meltdown if their back-up systems were compromised by a similar event or even parallel event. And, yes, the spent fuel pools never should have been approved as adequately secure.

Charley Noble


29 Mar 11 - 08:45 PM (#3124465)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

Anyone else able to read what's in the balloons?

Just. It wasn't easy.


29 Mar 11 - 09:09 PM (#3124482)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Stringsing, WHile thwe NRC is not owned by private companies you are correct in the spirit of correctly stating that there is collusion with the help of many republican run COngress'.

mg, whatever punishment that would fit the crime for running nuclear power plants with a record of negligence,
would be unusual and cruel.

gnu, whats new

Q, the new solar panels that are flexible film can be used as siding and roofing and are far cheaper than the heavy panels.
This may be an economic plus


29 Mar 11 - 09:13 PM (#3124485)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

JAPAN admits they have lost the battle to prevent a meltdown through the reactor vessel into the concrete basement of reactor #2,

Plutonium levels in soil and watercontinue to rise.

Only #3 was supposed to have PU in them but that either is a lie or they just don;t know how far #3 has melted down already.

When all 4 reactors melt down we may as well add the last two because the radiation will prevent human intervention.


WHEN THAT OCCURS the USA will indeed have ongoing continual radiation concerns on the west coast and ALaska including the fisheries.



THE BIG LIE THIS WEEK

"this is not anywhere near as serious as Chernobyl."


(note they have stopped comparing this to TMI)


30 Mar 11 - 02:24 AM (#3124567)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST

The tense of the verb in the title, well, it's wrong. imo. It has loom--ed.


30 Mar 11 - 08:43 AM (#3124724)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

"Nuclear plant disaster looming" strikes me as woefully inadequate to describe what has been happening in and around the Fukushima-1 nuclear plant site for the past week or so. I've asked that the title be changed but was told that since this disaster was still evolving there was no need for a change. Perhaps, the title will be changed ten thousand years from now when radiation levels have returned again to background. There are more important things to discuss than thread titles, as reality overwhelms the theory of safe nuclear power.

Time to check the updates.

Charley Noble


30 Mar 11 - 01:38 PM (#3124946)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

How to contain/store the contaminated water from the reactors has not been solved. A plan to store it in tankers is a no go.
The government says the Fukushima complex will be permanently closed once the reactors are stabilized. A Tepco spokesman suggested keeping reactors 5 and 6, but the cabinet member (Edano) in charge of energy says no.

Many (all?) of the boiling water reactors in the U. S. are outdated, much like those in the Tohoku area. They should be retired/replaced.

Nearshore water badly contaminated. In the Gulf Coast, the nearshore waters are breeding areas for Gulf of Mexico fish. Don't know about the breeding capacity of waters near the Sendai area.

Expect fossil fuel use for industrial energy to increase over the next few years.
In the U. S., the EIA estimates home use at 22%, commercial at 19%, industrial at 30% and transportation at 19%.
In most states and provinces, home use is closer to 10%.

Some people would have us go back to "that little grass shack in Kealikekua," but few would agree.


30 Mar 11 - 01:55 PM (#3124959)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

I thought I heard they are sourcing tanks. You would think that getting tanks should be a world priority... surely the world could get enough (I don't know the volume) tanks there fairly quickly? As for the volume of storage required, every little bit counts.


30 Mar 11 - 02:12 PM (#3124972)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Tanks- many needed, small capacity. Where to store them where they wouldn't corrode??
This was a suggestion by Tepco, but they abandoned it.
Cement-lined pits another suggestion.


30 Mar 11 - 02:24 PM (#3124980)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

Don't know about the breeding capacity of waters near the Sendai area.

The Kuru Siwo current - part of the Northern Pacific circulation. If it gets heavily contaminated, that finishes the North American Pacific fishery. Look at an ocean current map.


30 Mar 11 - 02:33 PM (#3124987)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Yes, tanks would corrode so it would be temporary but it would also be immediate. Concrete lined pits are also temporary and subject to evaporation which spreads contaminants, and to rain which can overflow the pits. As all concrete cracks, pits are subject to leakage. Synthetic liners can be tricky to install... not as time consuming as clay liners, of course. Perhaps a combination of the two could be considered.

In any case, if they nixed tanks, it ain't the way to go I guess.


30 Mar 11 - 03:11 PM (#3125023)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

This improvised plan for dealing with huge volumes of radioactive sea-water is a far cry from whatever disaster response plans TOPCO filed with the appropriate agency of the Japanese Government. I expected as much as soon as they began desperately pouring salt-water onto the damaged reactor buildings.

Ideally, they would process the contaminated sea-water by boiling it down, and then storing the more concentrated radioactive sludge in armored dry casks. But you need a processing plant for that, with containment protection so that the water vapor doesn't carry radioactive volatiles out into the environment. They'll have to settle for much more temporary and imperfect measures until they can design and construct such a facility on site.

There was a unsettling report on CNN at noon that steam was seen escaping again from the Fukushima-2 nuclear complex 6 miles to the north. Sorry, we just won't stand for any more bad news.

Charley Noble


30 Mar 11 - 03:57 PM (#3125062)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

NHK... there is concern that piping connections to the cores may be cracking.

Greenpeace has measured radiation levels in a number of areas, has called for evacuations outside the 30km radius, especially for pregnat women and for babies, and has measured radiation levels in Tokyo that contradict government readings and the government wants details. I hope they get rid of the Greenpeacers ASAP... all they can do is exacerbate the problems for their own gain... idiots. Panic is not needed at this time.


30 Mar 11 - 05:17 PM (#3125115)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

From the last update (and there's more unsettling stuff in it... like the number of incidents at warious US plants in the past which I had no knowledge of!!!)...

"The NRC looked at that. Initially, they didn't look at it very well, because unfortunately, every other page was missing from the report we sent them, because I took it to Kinko's, and they didn't duplex it. So, the NRC, three months later, had determined that our concerns had no consequences, even though page 2, page 4, page 6 and so on was missing. So, that kind of gave us a clue as to how detailed they looked over those concerns.

They basically said the chances of that happening were so small that nobody really needed to do anything about it. We think they need to get a new Ouija board, because the events in Japan showed them how wrong that assessment was."

Good lord! The NRC must be rife with idiots! How could anyone respond to a report they could NOT even have read? God help us all.


30 Mar 11 - 06:05 PM (#3125151)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Fukushima II, with 4 reactors, is 7 miles south of Fukushima I (Daiichi complex), it is referred to as the Daini complex in my posts and by NHKJapan.
Reactors 1 and 3 built by Toshiba, 2 and 4 by Hitachi.
Smoke being emitted from one of the buildings was from equipment which supplies power to a motor pump which collects outdoor water, and stopped after workers turned off the motor, according to NHK.

The Japanese government has set up 4 working groups led by Government members Fukuyama and Hosono.
The groups include members of Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency, U. S. military forces stationed in Japan, and the U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
The groups are discussing measures to prevent radiation from leaking outside the Daiichi plant, and also are studying the possible use of remote-controlled unmanned equipment to prevent radiation exposure among plant workers, and use of a U. S. unmanned robot for measuring radiation levels.
They have arranged for the transport of fresh water to the complex by U. S. vessels.
NHK, March 30.


30 Mar 11 - 06:35 PM (#3125167)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

Now they have set up a group?? and are studying use of robots or whatever. They do not seem to move with the utmost speed. Which is fine if you are playing chess but not in a situation like this. Oh I forgot. Calm heads must prevail. mg


30 Mar 11 - 09:14 PM (#3125248)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Its interesting to read the deailed speculative alternatives that might be used to clean up this mess. Some are clever, some are nuanced and some are elegant but huge.

I think in the final analysis they are going to go into fuck it mode.
Fuck it mode is just dumpings much concrete on the fucker even though the fucking poison will continue to fuck up the ocean forever.

They will brag about the tonnage of concrete used and compare it to the great pyramid and blah blah blah.


IF this had happened in a desert we would be better off.


30 Mar 11 - 09:21 PM (#3125253)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

U. S. is sending robotics and trained operators to attempt work in areas where radiation levels are dangerous. The remote-controlled machines have been used to conduct environmental cleanup, etc., in contaminated environments, although not on a compromised nuclear reactor.
In addition, the U. S. Energy department has sent 40 employees and 7710 kg of equipment to Japan.

Kyodo News says the Japanese government plans to spray a water-soluble resin over debris at the Fukushima Daiichi No. 1 plant to prevent radiation leaks from spreading further.

Industry minister Kaieda instructed nuclear plant operators to compile emergency safety measures to prevent radiation leaks in the event that their power and cooling devices fail.
Utilities, which operate 45 nuclear reactors nationwide excluding the Fukushima No. 1 and No. 2 plants, were instructed to compile a new safety manual and submit it to NISA by mid-April.
The Fukushima emergency developed because TEPCO could not immediately secure an alternative power source after the reactors cooling systems were disabled, or tap the huge amounts of water needed to cool spent fuel storage pools, the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry said.
Kaieda- "I want plant operators to place power supply vehicles to secure electricity and firetrucks to provide water to spent fuel storage pools and reactors in times of emergency."
Drastic new safety measures, including instructing operators to place a reserve electric system to pump seawater, and build seawalls to protect against tsunami, are requested.

Meanwhile, experts from French atomic fuel company Areva are offering advice and assistance in removing contaminated water accumulations.
Areva is the processor of the MOX fuel used in the Daiichi No. 3 reactor, shipped there in 1999.

Most of the above from the Japan Times, Thursday, March 31.


30 Mar 11 - 09:55 PM (#3125267)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

IS the water soluable resin flammable or impervious to heat?
It just might work where there is no heat source.

Still this sounds like the infamous glue remedy.

Is your containment vessel cracked? IS you basement floor at risk of of being melted and radioactive water is pouring throught the hole?
WELL JUST USE WHACKY GLUE
its safe and fun to use.

But wait there's more...


30 Mar 11 - 10:23 PM (#3125277)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Q-

Thanks for doing the follow-up on the Fukushima-2 nuclear complex. One nuclear complex going rogue is quite enough.

Gnu-

Are you talking about a report filed with the NRC by the Union of Concerned Scientists above?

One of the reasons I get pedantic and repeat all the names over and over again is that it's easy to get totally mixed up in a thread like this one.

Charley Noble


31 Mar 11 - 05:58 AM (#3125379)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Jim Martin

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12916688


31 Mar 11 - 07:58 AM (#3125429)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Charley... yes.


31 Mar 11 - 08:22 AM (#3125454)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

The link that Jim Martin provided above is on another report for the need to further expand the mandatory evacuation zone around the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex. There is more and more evidence that the radiation readings out to 25 miles are more than twice than the "trigger" for defining the evacuation zone in and around Chernobyl. Here's a few more words on the topic from the Union of Concerned Scientists (emphasis added):

"The IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency) is reporting that measured soil concentrations of Cs-137 as far away as Iitate Village, 40 kilometers northwest of Fukushima-Dai-Ichi, correspond to deposition levels of up to 3.7 megabecquerels per square meter (MBq/sq. m). This is far higher than previous IAEA reports of values of Cs-137 deposition, and comparable to the total beta-gamma measurements reported previously by IAEA and mentioned on this blog.

This should be compared with the deposition level that triggered compulsory relocation in the aftermath of the Chernobyl accident: the level set in 1990 by the Soviet Union was 1.48 MBq/sq. m."

Evidently the Union of Concerned Scientists has been primarily focusing their own energy on preparing and presenting testimony at an energy hearing in Washington, DC, this week.

Charley Noble


31 Mar 11 - 09:42 AM (#3125493)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

NHK...

The US military is sending Marines specialized in responding to nuclear emergencies to Japan to help deal with the trouble at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant.

Japan's Self-Defense Force Joint Chief of Staff Ryoichi Oriki announced the measure on Thursday.

Oriki said US Defense Secretary Robert Gates has approved the sending of the 140-member Chemical Biological Incident Response Force.

The unit is trained in search-and-rescue operations and clearing highly radioactive nuclear materials.

Oriki said the unit will not necessarily take immediate action, and that the Self-Defense Forces hope to share information with them and study how it can be put into use when needed.

The US military has provided a barge capable of carrying large volumes of fresh water to keep reactors at the plant cool. It has also sent nuclear experts to Japan as part of efforts to resolve the crisis.

Thursday, March 31, 2011 19:36 +0900 (JST)


31 Mar 11 - 09:51 AM (#3125498)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

gnu-

So we'll have to add a verse to this saga about "sending in the marines."

Well, the Japanese certainly need all the help they can get.

Charley Noble


31 Mar 11 - 12:26 PM (#3125586)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Some of the improvised methods of dealing with this disaster clearly shows there was no thinking of how to deal with a nuclear breach scenario.

Plastic wrap and concrete?
Sounds like a Saran wrap and plaster cast.

Keep pumping water...
hose it down

Bring in the robots
As if they are going to remove tousands of tons of nuclear fuel.

Hey I wish the best to any and all efforts
but there is no going back to any form of normalcy in mid Japan's east coast. Not for the food chain, not for residents.


31 Mar 11 - 12:55 PM (#3125597)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL

Sadly, old fears are resurfacing and refugees from the radiation affected zone are being shunned, even turned away from hospitals.


31 Mar 11 - 01:11 PM (#3125612)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Good lord no!


31 Mar 11 - 01:20 PM (#3125618)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Sendai, the city of over one million in Fukushima Prefecture, now has restored water, gas and electricity to about two-thirds of the city. Some subway lines are open and the rest are still being checked for problems.
The Nissan plant at Iwate, Fukushima Prefecture, is about to reopen and hopes to be in full production by June (produces high end Fuga = Infiniti models.

The Japanese government has told the IAEA that it has no plans to expand the evacuation zone at this time.

Japan will return to full industrial production in June, according to government ministers. The concern at present seems to be that Tokyo and other city use of air-conditioning and other increased uses in the hot and humid summer will put too much of a demand on energy supply, and 'rolling' blackouts are likely.
(The available power directed to industry? No announcements about allocations yet.)

Plans for 16 new nuclear reactors are under consideration by the government, although there is a hold on construction at present. (Type??)

Although a government announcement has been made that Fukushima Daiichi will be closed, there is still comment around that reactors 5 and 6 will be reopened after the other reactors are under control.

The above from Japan Times, BBC, and CBC.
It looks like the Japanese government wants to put the Fukushima 'problem' into the 'controlled' category as soon as possible so that normal industrial production can resume.

The CNN has been running loudly with a story that the workers at the Fukushima Daiichi plant do not have sufficient protective clothing and that they are poorly fed, at times having only crackers and an energy supplement. No other 'news' source has carried this story.

It is evident that some workers were badly exposed to radiation in water on the floors. This seems due to negligence on the part of TEPCO and poor worker training. Possible dangers should have been metered.


31 Mar 11 - 01:40 PM (#3125630)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

NHK reports, as investigations continue into the tsunami... one town was hit with 19.9m (52') waves. Now, that just seems unfair in some way. (Yes, I know that's a bit silly to say, but it's the way I feel.)

The footage of these investigations is humbling and also fascinating from an engieering point of view. The failure modes for a number of large buildings "well designed" for tsunamis was surprising to me at first glance. They fell toward the ocean. Most which withstood (stayed vertical although obviously sustaining major damage) the initial forces were toppled by the receding waters indicating that these buildings could structurally withstand cyclical impact loading of short duration but were susceptible to the following continuous loads in the opposite direction. Yes, there certaily would be a weakening factor due to loads but, empirically, I just wouldn't have clued into that failure mode if I had not seen the videos.

That's a very short and skimpy description which leaves out many variables... pathways of receding waters concentrated by drainage contours, debris concentration in similar fashion... many other considerations.


31 Mar 11 - 01:43 PM (#3125632)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/31/japans-nuclear-rescuers-inevitable-die-weeks/

They expect to die.

And those fools running the show that can't even get food to them and blankets...send a pack animal in if you have to or a kite or?? What is the problem here other than the kind of stupidity I would never have expected. Please do not let these stupid men and/or women ever run a nuclear facility again. Perhaps solar panels if that. Wind-up flashlights perhaps. Bicycle power hooked up to batteries. Modest windmills..not big ones that could tip over and hurt somebody. mg


31 Mar 11 - 04:45 PM (#3125770)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

The ground water at and around the disaster site is contminated.

The Cesium 137 in the area of the 4 leaking reactors now stands at double what Chernobyl was releasing when it was decided to evacuate everyone within 50 miles.

By criteria I hold as important, this diaster is as bad or worse than Chenobyl and is still capable of massive explosions (not like Hiroshima) but even more deadly taken on a time scale of the killing ability of the radioactive debris for the next million years.
Even if the 1900 tons of stored fuel do not have a fission excurision, the deadly qualities of this metal will still last for a million years



THE BEST CASE SCENARIO
Is if we can devise a massive way of breaking the half lives of these metals all the way down to a mere 100 years. What has left the area is a lost cause, but a project to do something like speeding up the decay until it is no more lethal than slightly radioactive lead, would be a god send.

Projected deaths from cancers world wide would be cut down.

I stress that mneasuring who lives and who dies should be over a time scale that we never talk about, thousands of generations.


31 Mar 11 - 04:59 PM (#3125786)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

I have high praise for the coverage of this disaster on npr, Rachel Maddow and for an alternative slant that is mostly 'relax radiation is as normal as sunshine and banana pie' kind of coverage on FOX.

When I look at the radiation monitors in the US that report Fukushima contaminants in the US, I was shocked that with the exception of the Carolinas and COlorado all the Red Sates report no Fukushima radiation while allt he blue states do! ????????????????????? I should link the map from last night

Its here in MD. Sure it is miniscule BUT when a COW injests radiation the contamination gets condensed/magnified by a factor of 700 TIMES by the time it is found in milk.


31 Mar 11 - 06:23 PM (#3125841)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Today's transcript of the teleconference by the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS) with reporters has been posted.

There's a long discussion about whether there has already been a "criticality accident" and how that would impact the region. It's an interesting discussion on what would be an even more alarming phase of this disaster but the conclusion by UCS is there is not enough information to confirm such an accident and that they still think it would be unlikely given the general situation.

Here's what I decided to harvest; the first question clarifies a point I was trying to make yesterday with regard to dealing with huge volumes of radioactive salt water:

REPORTER: Good morning. I was wondering what options you think TEPCO might have in dealing with the contaminated water, to store it or move it somewhere. And if you don't want to speculate on their options, what are the difficulties in dealing with and storing that water? Thanks.

DR. LYMAN: Thanks for the question. I mean, it looks like the first difficulty is just not having tanks to hold it, the capacity to hold it. So, there was mention of bringing in, you know, seaborne tankers. I gather there's some issues there associated with them being able to dock. So, I'm not sure if that option is realistic.

But, you know, the question is doing it quickly. I mean, you know, in the long term, they certainly would be able to manage that water. You could evaporate -- I mean, reprocessing plants that manage highly radioactive solutions are able to evaporate the water and just concentrate the radioactive isotopes, but you need special, you know, equipment to be able to do that. There's filtration, but as I said before and I also heard the Japanese confirming, that when you have such high levels of radioactive materials, it could challenge conventional filtration methods, so you would need more sophisticated techniques. But over time, you know, assuming the situation is stabilized and they were able to get at least the physical capacity to store the liquids, then they would just be left with potentially a high-level radioactive waste problem, you know, like the U.S. has in spades with liquid waste left over from defense production. But, again, they just need tanks.

(SNIP!)

This question focuses on the end-game, full decomissioning of the nuclear complex:

REPORTER: I have one follow-up.
It seems like the Reactors 1, 2 and Number 4 has to be abandoned, so what kind of steps do they have to take, you know, to successfully abandon those reactors?

DR. LYMAN: Well, I believe -- I mean, first they are going to have to achieve cold shutdown, meaning you reach a stable state where you're getting enough water to the core that the temperature remains low, well below boiling, and you have a stable supply of water to achieve that, and that will have to be achieved for the cores in the spent fuel pools.

I don't believe, you know, talk of, you know, dumping concrete over the entire site or something is plausible without first stabilizing the fuel, because, you know, you can end up with a potentially unstable situation under -- what you're burying doesn't make sense to me. So, I think it will have to proceed according to, you know, established principles of decommissioning once the fuel and the spent fuel is stabilized.
It might take years, but eventually, they will have to inspect the damage and then determine how that fuel can be removed and stored safely. I don't think just leaving it in situ there is a good solution.

So, in the case of Three Mile Island in the United States, it took several years before they even accessed the core. They determined the damage, they packaged it, and they eventually shipped it to a burial site out west.

So, you know, once the material is stabilized, then you can start worrying about how to deal with the other structures, many of which are contaminated and will probably be at least low-level waste. But you're talking about a potentially pretty long process before the site can be finally decommissioned.

And then you have to deal with the contamination of the soil. There's already been some plutonium detected. There's probably more that will be an additional expense and hazard for cleanup crews.

(SNIP!)

This question seeks to compare Chernobyl's impact with the expected impact from the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex:

REPORTER: Just a follow-up question to that.
Is Chernobyl really an apt comparison given that that was an actual explosion and that, so far anyway, that Fukushima has not blown up to that extent?

DR. LYMAN: Well, the impact of that is that the releases from Chernobyl are -- actually, there were greater concentrations further away from the site because of the height of the plume. The explosion caused mechanical damage to some fuel, which changed the characteristics of what's called the source term or the type of isotopes that were seen and released, but independent estimates are showing that there's already been a significant or a fraction of the amount of cesium that was released at Chernobyl already at Fukushima, and to the extent that you don't have a hot, long, graphite fire that's wafting it higher into the area, that would lead to more concentrated deposition closer to the plant.

So, I think when all is said and done, you know, they're going to find there are areas within the current exclusion zones that I would expect to be a pretty big concern.

###

Enough to digest for now, especially so close to dinner.

But the entire transcript has a wealth of information.

Charley Noble


31 Mar 11 - 07:27 PM (#3125872)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

That statement reagrding a comparison to Chernobyl is a strong indication thatt he diasater has moved from a level 6 to a level 7.

You're noble as always Charlie.


31 Mar 11 - 07:45 PM (#3125891)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Officials at Japan's nuclear safety agency said radiation in the latest sampling from the ocean near the Fukushima plant's discharge pipes was at 4,385 times the legal limit. That compares to the previous high of 3,355 times the legal limit, registered a day earlier.


Or in other words after a day on the beach there you would be burned, virtually boiled and dead.

Note: you would not be allowed to be buried in any conventional grave yards.


31 Mar 11 - 07:56 PM (#3125905)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Chernobyl had a graphite fire that was extinguished after a week

The Fukushima plume will continue for many years at a minimum.


31 Mar 11 - 08:31 PM (#3125927)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Mankind at large or just the people you know, will only make large changes in their lives when confronted by crises.

What constitutes a crises is a devestating event or catastrophe.

After the Japan Meltdowns, it is crucially important that the industry spokes people shall not get away with business as usual.

Toning down the tragic permanent harful events now and for millions of years to come, with rhetoric that calls opponents of nuclear power chicken littles or hysterical ignoramuses, must be shouted down and the spokes people condemned for their heinous lies.

Losing the moment that can realisticly stop the next dozen or more disasters must not be allowed to slip through our fingers.


When you here rhetoric such as once in a 17,000 year probability, call the perpetrator of that remark immediately. We have proof of two 17,000 year accients within 3 days of each other.

When comparisons of radioactivity to TVs and bananas and healthy sunshine are heard, make it cleart we are speaking of fetal mutation and life crippling cancers and food that makes you sick kind of radiation.

When the lie "No one has ever been killed by a nuclear power plant", simply call them a liar to their face. You do not need to list each individual or each case of disaese, calling them a liar for what ever reason they have chosen to lie, is all that need be said.


The liars for nuclear energy who go over the top on a regular basis for the private corporate owners come in the form of self proclaimed independant interest groups and self declared scientists. They have their astro turf websites and fake pictures on their site.
They are the pied pipers of continual death and horrible disfigurment and mutation.
Do what ever you can to help them change.

This is a crises, this is a disaster, this is a critical time in which the death peddlers will tell all manner of lies to preserve their former way of life. Well not at the expense of our food, our lives and the future of all children and all species on Earth.

The lasting effects of this showdown has the importence of lasting a million years, even if it is then buried under 12 meters of crust or silt by that time.


You have seen media regularly call any person who has seen a very unusual event or refer to a ufo as having lost their marbles. Do not allow the facts of nuclear disasters and near disasters to be cast as fiction by cowardly kooks.

Do not let this event get swift boated, global warming hoaxed, without the strongest rehetorical response. I am not saying proponents of nuclar power are like Randy Newman's 'short people who have no reason to live'. I am just saying that corporate nuclear proponents are helping decisions to be made that render your life having no reason to continue without cancer, child mutation, sterility, conception problems and horrible disfigurment which I know first hand due to the radiactive Iodine poisoning of my half sister Carol Ann Siddens.


31 Mar 11 - 08:53 PM (#3125937)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Engineers are suggesting that dismantling the Daiichi complex and decontaminating the site may take 30 years and cost more than 1 trillion yen. Three Mile Island took 12 years before the core was isolated after the burial and sent out west--


Minister Edano hasn't ruled out pouring concrete over the entire facility as one way to shut it down.
Dumping concrete on the plant would serve a second purpose: it would trap contaminated water, said Tony Roulstone, an atomic engineer who directs the nuclear energy program at Cambridge University.
(NOTE: Compare with statement by Dr. Lyman, post by Charley: Experts differ on feasibility).

Prime Minister Kan is looking to split NISA (Nuclear and Industrial Safety Industry) from METI (Ministry of Economic Trade and Industry) because of the conflict of interest.
(Note: Sound familiar? A similar conflict within our government with regard to the Gulf Oil disaster).

Kan said he is considering a fundamental change in energy policy, which at present feature plans to add 14 more reactors to the 54 in operation before March 11.

A few weeks ago, I saw a program on rice farmers who had developed a way of life over many generations. Adjacent to the rice fields, farmers had built their individual homes, protected from winds by tree plantings, which also included fruit trees and space for a few animals, and with space for vegetable gardens. Over the years, a stable, comportable lifestyle was established, providing the family with their needs.
Last night on NHK Japan, family farms in the Tohoku area were discussed. The people have had to leave and their produce and animals have been contaminated.
Sad to see.


31 Mar 11 - 08:56 PM (#3125939)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Forgot to note- the comments about government plans and concrete burial from the Japan Times for Friday.


31 Mar 11 - 09:55 PM (#3125972)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Q-

I certainly feel for the farmers and their livestock.

But it's very disturbing to see comments like this:

"pouring concrete over the entire facility as one way to shut it down"

I can see the appeal of this approach, in the short run covering up a multitude of blunders. But it's not a long term solution and they would not learn the details of this disaster which could prove so important for averting similar disasters. And it really wouldn't work in the long run anyway because they'd end up having to deal with it again in ten years or so when the concrete containment began to deteriorate.

It's far better to continue to try to stabilize reactor units 1-3 and spent fuel pool 4 for 5 years or so and then proceed to decommission the entire complex in a normal fashion, step by step.

There are no shortcuts in dealing with high-level nuclear waste, as the Russians and Ukrainians have discovered with Chernobyl; they're currently entombing the original tomb in traditional Russian fashion (figurine inside of figurine inside of figurine).

Charley Noble


31 Mar 11 - 10:03 PM (#3125983)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

NHK...

The International Atomic Energy Agency says radiation levels twice as high as its criterion for evacuation were detected in a village 40 kilometers from the troubled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant.

This is outside the 20 kilometer exclusion zone and the 20-to-30 kilometer alert zone where the Japanese government advises voluntary evacuation.

The nuclear watchdog reported the findings at a meeting of its members in Vienna on Wednesday.

The IAEA said its experts measured levels of Iodine 131 and Cesium 137 in soil around the plant between March 18th and 26th.

It said measurements in Iitate Village, 40 kilometers northwest of the Fukushima plant, was double the IAEA operational criteria for evacuation and that it has advised Japan to carefully assess the situation.

In Tokyo on Thursday, Japan's Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano told reporters that the government has been notified by the IAEA of its radiation findings.

Edano said the reported radiation levels in Iitate will not have an immediate impact on human health but could be harmful if exposed over a long period of time. He said the government will closely assess the long-term impact and take appropriate action.

Thursday, March 31, 2011 13:29 +0900 (JST)

I gotta go to bed... I am sure many in Japan would like to be able to sleep tonight... sigh...


31 Mar 11 - 10:30 PM (#3125988)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

they will take appropriate action when it is too late to resettle the people, when other communities will fear them. they are a most incapable government. and then they talk about how the electric company did not plan well..who gave them permits? who allowed this? mg


01 Apr 11 - 12:07 AM (#3126008)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Guidlines to assault the Nuclear Industry for their assault on you and the Earth


01 Apr 11 - 02:13 AM (#3126033)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Who can write a formula or make a graph chart to calculate the half lives of Iodine and Cesium isotopes, taking into account the number of days, the range of normal to 100 thousand time above normal, the concentration of a specific radioactivity by cows in milk (700 times) what about cheese?, leaf veggies, root veggies, apples etc

Maybe a slide rule is the tool for this but I am thinking about a simple to use functioning calculator for people to calculate particular exposure in foods, air water and over time.

The EPA monitoring stations and accureate info from Japan is essential.

Do you think this would be of any value for parents or are there just too many variables to calculate anything meaningful?


01 Apr 11 - 07:13 AM (#3126115)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Jim Martin

Contaminated water now 15m below surface:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12930949


01 Apr 11 - 08:33 AM (#3126153)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

The Fukushima plume will continue for many years at a minimum.

No. That smoke is carbon soot. There can't be enough carbon on the Fukushima site to keep a fire going that long.


01 Apr 11 - 11:09 AM (#3126256)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Jack-

I agree with you on that.

However, there will be over the years further distribution by prevailing winds of radioactive dust deposited on trees, soil, and structures. It's simply not feasible to clean up large areas downwind of the plant complex, as they've discovered around Chernobyl.

RANT ALERT!!!

I am continually irritated by the assumption by media reporters and some governmental or utility officials that radioactive isotopes are "harmless" after reaching their half-life. No, the isotopes in question haven't returned to background by that time; their radioactivity content has been reduced to half and they are still dangerous for 10 to 20 more intervals.
What does this mean for Iodine-131?

It's half-life is about 10 days.

After 10 days it retains half its radioactivity

After another 10 days it retains a quarter of its radioactivity

After another 10 days it retains an eight of its radioactivity.

Etc.

With cesium-137, the major difference is that we're concerned about a half-life of about 30 years. The concept is the same and it can be deadly for at least 300 years.

People prefer not to even consider the heavier radioactive isotopes whose half-life extends to thousands and thousands of years. Why consider the inconceivable? Cover it up with concrete, all smooth and beautiful!

Charley Noble


01 Apr 11 - 12:45 PM (#3126325)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Stock in Toshiba, which built 4 of the Fukushima Daiichi comples reactors, has dropped 17 per cent. Hitachi, which built no. 4, has dropped 12 per cent. Tepco, down 78% may be bailed out and taken over by the government, which says it hasn't ruled out taking a stake in the company.
An analyst at Sanford Bernstein says the disaster likely will be a boon for Areva SA of France and Dongfang of China as buyers of atomic reactors move out of the Japanese market.
Toshiba was working on selling 39 reactors by 2015 and Hitachi hoped for 38 sales by 2030.
Sat., Apr. 2, Bloomberg report in Japan Times.

Kyodo News, reported in Japan Times, says the government is considering lifting the ban on shipments of vegetables and raw milk from near the Fukushima plant if they prove free of radioactive contamination in three consecutive tests- senior vice farm minister Tsutsui.
The ban would be lifted on a regional rather than prefectural basis.

Some 170,000 people are at temporary evacuation centers.
Several prefectures have announced they will accept the refugees in their area. It is hoped that they will move in groups, so they may maintain communities in the new environment.
(Much of the resettlement depends on the prefectures, which have control over the matter. Editorial in Japan Times, Apr. 2.)
"It is hoped that local governments that accept evacuees will make adequate preparations such as offering emplloyment and providing public services including education......"


01 Apr 11 - 01:20 PM (#3126355)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

News yesterday that the workers didn't even have dosimeters. How much would a dosimeter cost? They lost them in the earthquake and tsunami, but how long would it take to get them from Korea or US? Post haste. I can not believe it would take over 20 days to get workers in this situation dosimeters, except by looking at other of their inept responses I guess I can believe it. Has anyone heard if workers are getting decent food, water and bedding? Yet. mg


01 Apr 11 - 01:54 PM (#3126377)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Reading the daily press briefings from UCS is sobering, to say the least. When these guys talk about this or that incident/accident (explosions) that I have never heard of, it truly is a WTF moment for me. And, dumping of nuclear waste into a lake???... "One was the Kyshtym explosion in 1957, I think it was, in the Soviet Union. If I'm not familiar with -- I mean, there are certainly -- and also, in that region, there was systematic dumping of radioactive waste into the watershed there, into a particular lake."


01 Apr 11 - 01:57 PM (#3126381)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

There have been no reports about inadequate food in any Japanese sources, only American and UK reports. Working conditions are difficult and it is impossible to provide a midday meal. Dinner cossists of rice with canned chicken, fish or curry. The type of high calorie "crackers" for breakfast has not been reported, they are accompanied by a carton of vegetable juice.
A Japanese nuclear official said conditions were grueling, with no facilities in the plant. It sound much like field conditions for military units under fire.

A shortage of dosimeters was reported, saying that for a time only the crew leaders had them. This lack was corrected when a shipment was received.

From the reports, it is impossible to accurately assess the exposure received by the workers; some shifts are as short as 10 minutes, but even this could be unsafe. The conditions at Chernoble come to mind, and Charley perhaps could fill us in on exposures at Three Mile Island.


01 Apr 11 - 03:09 PM (#3126434)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

If this is an organization that can not provide food and blankets under hazardous conditions, and it can not provide readily available (I presume) instruments, how can they possibly be able to orchestrate the nuclear disaster, that affects not just Japan but certainly the region. It impacts foreign relations, the economy etc. as well as health.

I expect there is a culture of bowing to big companies there. They are not long out of a feudal situation. I think information is not going to freely dispersed, as reporters and TV stations etc. are probably in ways beholden to whatever entity is in charge. So it is going to come from other sources.

And what exactly is the problem with getting food in? People are going in and out it seems. There are firetrucks and cement trucks around the area. Could a firetruck send one of its basket ladders up to a window? Can they not open windows?

I don't care if they have to train hummingbirds to carry one leaf of contaminated spinach at a time to them. Get them some food. mg


01 Apr 11 - 03:10 PM (#3126435)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Radiation comes from particles of ionizing isotpes of regular atoms.

U 235 has a half life of nearly the life of the universe.
Plutonium is way into the many tens of thousands of years.

Yep Iodine Cesium and other by products of HOT U 235 -8
Are short lived in comparison.

Iodine does not lose all its radioactivity for years.
But its half life is indeed 10 days. At its peak it can be devestating if injested. Horribly devestating.

poo pooing the hazared is in no ones best interest, unless you are afraid the truth will send people to suicide or hysterical break downs...which ain't likely


01 Apr 11 - 04:01 PM (#3126477)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Q-

"and Charley perhaps could fill us in on exposures at Three Mile Island"

There was general public concern about the plume from Three Mile Island as it spread up the Eastern seaboard but the readings were relatively low. Even in the immediate plant area, it's been difficult to sort out the regional impact, the higher than expected cancers, spontaneous abortions, and mutations. The incidence rates were very low and readily debated by statisticians without resolution. That's the good news. I expect this will not be the case in Japan.

I don't remember any excessive radiation exposures for the plant workers, and we were certainly expecting them at the time and would have made use of them in our "educational fact sheets." It's a good question for anyone who has access to long term health studies of those plant workers.

Charley Noble


01 Apr 11 - 04:13 PM (#3126485)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Well, I just reviewed the new photos of the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex in its current state as annotated and posted by the Union of Concerned Scientists. Take a look at the damage if you are curious and are prepared to see some shocking damage: Click here for PIXS!

There's also a link there for an earlier set of photos.

Charley Noble


01 Apr 11 - 05:06 PM (#3126516)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

I think one thing that should be learned from this is that governments and big businesses can be terribly inept when it comes to emergencies. So-called contingency planning allows for whet we think may happen, but few plan for the worst things that can happen because to say they've done that implies some things may be beyond their control, and it's kinda hard to sell the notion of "hey, we've considered this and guess what, we're fucked if the worst happens" to stock holders. The zaibatsu doesn't care.

The Japanese have been downright stupid in the way this has gone down. Lying bastards. The Japanese people will pay a heavy price for this, and no doubt a few heads will roll. Tomorrow, it will be SSDD, and little will change. We face a similar problem here in North America. BUT, we allow it to happen by buying into the BS that gets shoveled into our maws by TV, radio and so-called leaders, most of whom I perceive to be ass kissers for the ruling classes--read big business. They can always get more people to do their dirty work.


01 Apr 11 - 05:52 PM (#3126554)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

It should be understood that the workmen carry in food and whatever else cannot be found on site. There are no caterers, no beds where they are working- much of the buildings are destroyed. Perhaps mg will volunteer to bring in beds and tempura.

Even if food-bed provisions had been made in the reactor buildings, the pictures linked by Charley (and shown online by Japan Times, etc.), show that they probably were blasted by the hydrogen explosions.

Except for the first day, the firetruck(s) are not manned after positioning, but have a mobile supply tank attached which is serviced, as discussed (online diagram may have disappeared by now) somewhere above.

Undoubtedly post-mortems on the reactor complex will show that design was faulty, and operator and government agency could have done more to prevent the destruction, but now that is hindsight.

Should people have been permitted to settle, farm, or have businesses in the fertile, lowlands of Tohoku? Some 20,000 dead. Very little recrimination about this aspect of the disaster.


01 Apr 11 - 06:00 PM (#3126560)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

I did not ask why food and beds were not provisioned ahead of time, although some should have been. If the workers are going in and out, then there should not be a problem getting food and blankets in. Certainly when the fate of a nation depends on 600 people, the country would want them fed, and fed well, with Kobe beef if that is what they needed to keep up their stamina. It sounds to me like they were almost locked into the building though and were not leaving. You could have a shielded vehicle and drive to the door if they are opening doors. I personally can not think of a reason not to feed these men and/or women properly, and that includes the executives making them some nice delicious meals that they bring in themselves or program a robot to or whatever. mg


01 Apr 11 - 06:36 PM (#3126584)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

One was the Kyshtym explosion in 1957, I think it was, in the Soviet Union. If I'm not familiar with -- I mean, there are certainly -- and also, in that region, there was systematic dumping of radioactive waste into the watershed there, into a particular lake.

It wasn't systematic, it was a catastrophic accident much like Fukushima.

Kyshtym seems to have been the second worst nuclear accident ever (so far), as measured by the amount of radiation released. The radiation levels on the shores of Lake Chelyabinsk are still so high (fifty years later) that in places you can get a lethal dose of radiation in less than an hour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyshtym_disaster

This point is rather telling:

the CIA knew of the 1957 Mayak accident all along, but kept it secret to prevent adverse consequences for the fledgling American nuclear industry.


01 Apr 11 - 09:07 PM (#3126647)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Jack-

Thanks for the link to the 1957 Mayak disaster. I knew there were reasons I wanted to forget the details.

Charley Noble


02 Apr 11 - 06:39 AM (#3126819)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Jim Martin

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12945525


02 Apr 11 - 09:52 AM (#3126895)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Jim-

Your link provides a good update of the status of reactor units 1-4; it's estimated that 70% of the fuel melted down in one reactor and 30% in another.

It also refers to identifying an "8-inch crack" in the containment (pressure suppression chamber?) underneath the primary reactor containment of Unit 2, the evident source of highly radioactive water escaping into the environment. The utility workers are trying to devise a plan for plugging the crack with concrete, not an easy location to gain access to.

Charley Noble


02 Apr 11 - 11:15 AM (#3126935)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Here's a Friday, April 1, update from the Nuclear Information Resource Service (NIRS) on the status of the spent fuel pool in Unit 4 at the Fukushima-1 Nuclear Complex:

"UPDATE, 11:30 am, Friday, April 1, 2011. New video shows that Unit 4 fuel pool is exposed to the air and contains little or no water. "

Unfortunately their link to the video with narration doesn't work for me. I work from a MAC platform using Safari. Anyone else have better luck? Here's the general link to NIRS: click here for report!

Charley Noble


02 Apr 11 - 12:37 PM (#3126978)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

"... Unit 4 fuel pool is exposed to the air and contains little or no water."

Can the fuel in the empty pool melt down and breech the bottom of the pool? If so, there's a lot of stuff under the pool that can burn isn't there?


02 Apr 11 - 12:46 PM (#3126988)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

NHK...

Radioactive iodine twice the country's legal standard has been detected in seawater at a location 40 kilometers south of the disabled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

The Japanese Science Ministry on Saturday released the results of a survey based on samples taken 3 days ago. The sample was collected at a spot 10 kilometers off Iwaki City and 40 kilometers from the disabled plant, both in Fukushima Prefecture.

The detected level of iodine-131 was 79.4 becquerels per liter, twice the legal standard for water discharged from nuclear plants.

This is the first time that a radioactive reading that exceeds the legal limit has been detected off the shore of Fukushima Prefecture.
It's believed that the radioactive substances were carried offshore from the plant by a north-south current.

On Saturday, a crack was found in the compound of the nuclear plant through which radioactive water has been leaking into the ocean.

The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency says radioactive iodine will be diluted in seawater and does not pose a threat to human health. But it said it will continue to closely monitor the condition.

Saturday, April 02, 2011 17:49 +0900 (JST)


02 Apr 11 - 01:04 PM (#3126999)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

The pit with the crack is connected to the turbine building tunnel and the water intake. They tried concrete and it didn't work. They are going to try some kind of polymer "thingy"... the translation is sketchy.


02 Apr 11 - 01:28 PM (#3127013)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

As disaster movies go, this is getting better and better.

There could be a very big and very real explosion of the tons of fuel melted together.

ITs called an excurison.   Isn't that sweet.

Its a brief runaway fission event

boom not BOOM RRRR like an A bomb but deadly in its own iminical way.
Take the 2000 tons of uranium ,
spread it big and quick or let it leak forever
no matter what all the kings horsemen and all the kings men try to do for the next 100 years...
those the sad and true realities.

Even the best possible outcome at this point is just awful.


02 Apr 11 - 01:33 PM (#3127015)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Neither the Japanese Nuclear Safety agency nor TEPCO will confirm the estimates of U. S. Energy Secretary Chu that there were 70% meltdown in one reactor and 30% in another.

The failure of Japanese government, Tepco and Japanese media to fully disclose information is frustrating, but on the other hand, where did Chu get those estimates?

Adding to gnu post- "A senior nuclear safety official says the crack could be one of the sources of radioactivity found in seawater near the water outlet." NHK. Is he saying that there are other sources?

Workers are testing the spraying of synthetic resin. Type?


02 Apr 11 - 01:36 PM (#3127019)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Anyone for shooting in ping pong balls and old tennis shoes to plug the crack?

There was a fire and hydrogen explosion reported earlier in the spent fuel pool of Unit 4. It's possible that the explosion cracked the stainless steel and concrete containment for that pool, or maybe coolant is leaking out one of the drain pipes, valves damaged in the explosion.

I'd not be surprised if the other spent fuel pools in units 1, 2, and 3, are similarly damaged.

And as we've mentioned above, that would be a major problem given the inventory of high level nuclear waste stored in these pools.

One would hope that such large spent fuel pools will no longer be designed so close to the reactor vessel. There needs to be a small spent fuel pool for temporarily storing the inventory of one reactor vessel but it should be transfered out to a more remote well protected spent fuel pool as soon as it has cooled sufficiently. That was the design of the Maine Yankee nuclear power plant, a pressured light water reactor constructed back in 1970 and decommissioned in 1996, and it would seem to be an improvement on the design of the Fukushima-1 Mark 1 reactors, and their sister reactors all around the world, including the 23 plants in the States.

Charley Noble


02 Apr 11 - 01:42 PM (#3127021)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

I just read they have run out of shoe covers and are taping plastic bags over their shoes. Is no one checking on things like this? That is not a hard item to come by. They seem to let things run out totally before they think to order more. They waited weeks to order new generators. Please do not let them run nuclear ever again if they can't do simple things...I am wondering if I would let them put up clotheslines for free solar drying. mg


02 Apr 11 - 01:43 PM (#3127023)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Study of the nature of the earthquake continues. Measurements by researchers found an area off the coast that rose 5 to 8 meters in a zome 180 x 60 kilometers in size. This may have added impetus and height to the tsunami.
Prof. Satake, Univ. Tokio, said similar studies were needed to determine if similar quakes and tsunami could occur in other coastal areas. NHK World.


02 Apr 11 - 01:51 PM (#3127024)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Charley... "Is he saying that there are other sources?" No. It is "a" source. He cannot say there are NO others.


02 Apr 11 - 01:52 PM (#3127025)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

For what it's worth. A summary of readings from detection sutes.


02 Apr 11 - 02:09 PM (#3127037)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Japan Times questionaire-
"Much has been written recently about the gap between overseas media and local media when it comes to coverage of the aftermath of March 11 earthquake and tsunami. What is your take on this?"

"-Japanese media outlets need to be more agressive
-Sensationalist journalism hasn't affected me
-The government needs to open more communication channels
-Foreign journalists should act more responsibly
-Social media is doing a good job of filtering
-Wasn't aware of the gap."

(Note- Major Japanese media, as a rule, do not print information that cannot be substantiated. Rumors are a no-no. There are 'tabloid media' but they are not mass-circulation, and are often prosecuted for libel. Panel shows are common, but use comedians, personalities, etc., and avoid serious and/or political subjects.
The 'talk show' on radio of the type found in the U. S. is absent.)


02 Apr 11 - 02:19 PM (#3127043)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Unicef is requesting donations so that they may provide children books as a distraction for the kids who have virtually no other activity at shelters. NHK TV is clearly not theia of choice for children in this disaster.


02 Apr 11 - 02:31 PM (#3127057)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Japanese NHK TV every day broadcasts interviews with families in the shelters. These are halls and gymnasiums, open areas with each family centered around a futon, many families sharing the space. TV is not feasible, but books entertain without interfering with others.


02 Apr 11 - 02:53 PM (#3127072)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

As in Chernobyl, there are no procedures to stop selling radioactive products and food in Japan. They did catch some radioactive Spinich but that was grown very near the nuke plants.

20% of Japan Fishing fleet and sea food processing plants are destroyed. So far Tokyo fish auction markets say all the fish are fine.

The fish who have feasted on the 10000 people washed out to sea must effect the psyche of people in Japan on some level. It did at Phuket.

Food shortages and food dangers in Japan will become more evident in the months and years to come.

At northern shelters a cup of noodles meal is common.


02 Apr 11 - 03:33 PM (#3127099)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Sources for these statements, please.


02 Apr 11 - 03:50 PM (#3127107)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Unicef? The Japanese government told the world early on that $$$ is NO problem. What they need is time and manpower. They have oodles of money and equipment, but money doesn't clear roads and feed people and clean up a nuclear disaster... it takes time and it takes resources that are not available in sufficient quantity. If it was, they could buy it with the coin they said was no problem.


02 Apr 11 - 04:16 PM (#3127128)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

"For the the first month there were no procedures to halt radioactive products in Chernobyl. When there was it was fou that the lumber cut into boards was fine but the brooms were dangerously hot. All but one shipment of brooms had already been shipped."

I was on the commitee to pass or deny requests for food shipments from the Chernobyl area. One field adjacent to another might be unsafe but the other was safe, but the dust was free to blow and the water to flow. I learned how bad we humans are. I learned how bad I was. The rules said we had to dump dangerous dirt in dirt someplace else 6 feet deep and that surveys were to be done to be sure ground water was meters away. In practice the diggers would dig until they hit water and then usually didn't bother with the polyethelene plastic liners at all. etc

quotes from a book read out loud on the npr show THis American life this afternnon.

Its worth looking this show up later. It has the stories of the real people involved including the newly wed wife of a fireman who had radiation sickness within hours of exposure. She held his hand as he slept even though it was against the rules for anyone to touch him. Within days he began to cough up his lungs in large amounts and the rest of his organs were coming out as they were killed and disoloving from the inside out.
The accounts were read by actors in some cases and not the real victims, because some did not survive.


02 Apr 11 - 04:20 PM (#3127131)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

The Japanese government has set up a comprehensive plan and system to monitor food from affected areas. The WHO and FAO are keeping track of the situation, and the FAO has praised government efforts to keep the food supply safe.
The fears of radiation have decreased purchases of fresh foods, both agricultural and marine.
Produce from Ibaraki Prefecture, to the northeast, has been hard hit because of the discovery of spinach with unacceptable levels of radiation.

Markets have plenty of fresh fish and vegetables from unaffected areas, despite the devastation of part of the Tohoku area, including farms and small fishing villages.

Food exports from Japan are small, less than 0.5% of total exports (seafood about half of this).

Alarmist blogs are being printed in the U. S. by vehicles such as the Majirox News, staffed by former underground writers, and in UK by their large yellow press.

MSN News, April 3, 2011; "Radiation Discovery Fans Food Fears in Japan."


02 Apr 11 - 04:30 PM (#3127139)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

THe Union of Concerned Scientists has just posted their summary of what has been happening in Japan with regard to this nuclear disaster: click here for report!

It appears an excellent summary to me. It's a pity that it's unlikely to be reprinted in full by the Sunday newspapers tomorrow. There's a lot of people around the world who would like to know a little more about what happened, and what might happen next.

Charley Noble


02 Apr 11 - 05:51 PM (#3127173)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Stringsinger

Leave it to the US to offer the "Putzmeister".


02 Apr 11 - 07:13 PM (#3127212)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Despite all the complaints Japan really does seem to be handling the disaster 100% better than the USSR.

Tons of nuclear fuel doesnt care if the operators are a corrupt private company for profit at any cost or a souless state beauracracy, all it wants to do is burn.


02 Apr 11 - 07:41 PM (#3127223)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Corrupt private company? Please point out the corruption.
It may be too centered on satisfying its many shareholders, but that is not corruption.


02 Apr 11 - 07:48 PM (#3127229)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Corrupt in the sense they covered up accidents and cracked reactors.
Corrupt in the sense that they discovered CRACKS in the reactor containment vessel and chose to weld patch work patches of steel over the cracks instead of replacing the reactor vessel which costs a huge amount of money. Welding patches is never suggested by any company or regulatrs for a cracked reactor.


02 Apr 11 - 08:44 PM (#3127252)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

Falsified safety inspections.

Probably lots of coverups about this incident..as many as they can get away with.

I would look for financial audits and see what could be discovered, although a company stupid enough not to be able to purchase dosimeters even at black market rates in a disaster might be smart enough to not leave trails of money. mg


02 Apr 11 - 09:44 PM (#3127273)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

We should probably withhold judgment on the degree to which TEPCO has mismanaged this unfolding disaster.

I've already outlined what I thought the mistakes were, none of which were of a criminal nature. But I wouldn't rule out deliberate cover-ups by TEPCO officials as well. A lot of information, of course, is missing because instrumentation went off-line along with the control rooms, and evidently the control rooms are still not fully functional (although the overhead lights work).

Hopefully third parties will soon gain access to the plant site and be able to take their own measurements.

The workers at the plant have had enough to do trying desperately to stabilize the melting fuel rods, and the huge volumes of radioactive water. They don't seem to have the training or time to make systematic measurements.

Charley Noble


03 Apr 11 - 08:28 AM (#3127526)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Here's an update on TEPCO's attempts to patch the leak in the cable trench beneath Unit 2 at the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex (from Al Jazeera):

"Japanese officials grappling to end the nuclear crisis at the earthquake and tsunami-damaged Fukushima plant are focusing on a crack in a concrete pit that is leaking highly radioactive water into the ocean from a crippled reactor.

"There have been two attempts now to stem the flow of water from a pit near reactor No. 2," Al Jazeera's Wayne Hay, reporting from Tokyo, said on Sunday.

"In the first they [power plant workers] tried to use cement but that failed, in the second they tried to use a polymeric material, a kind of powder, but at the moment that is not working either," he said.

"Officials at TEPCO [the company that operates the plant] say they are not giving up yet on this product they will test it again on Monday. If it isn't working then, it is not clear what step 3 will be to try and stem the flow of this water.

"But even if they do stop the water flowing out of this pit, the water shouldn't be there in the first place, this is a pit that contains cables, so how do they stop that, that's the next question."

The water has been leaking into the sea from a 20-centimetre crack detected at a pit in the reactor where power cables are stored. TEPCO said the pit is connected to the No. 2 reactor's turbine building and a tunnel-like underground trench, in which highly radioactive water has been spotted so far."

Of course it will also be important to identify the source of the radioactive water that is filling the trench.

TEPCO has finally acknowledged that two plant workers were killed in the initial earthquake and tsunami. Their bodies were recently recovered and decontaminated.

Charley Noble


03 Apr 11 - 10:19 AM (#3127590)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL

Thanks, Charley. I check various sources every day for updates but ultimately come here for a concise, well thought out synopsis.

No doubt there will be a number of "horror" movies in the making for next year's release. Probably in time for the end of the world in December.

Maybe, I will finally write a book too.
SINS


03 Apr 11 - 10:34 AM (#3127602)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Sins-

The summary above linked to the Union of Concerned Scientists is the best overview I've seen.

"No doubt there will be a number of "horror" movies in the making for next year's release."

The movie will be out long before this disaster is cleaned up. I'm sure it's already in production. I wondering if Sheen has a leading role?

Charley Noble


03 Apr 11 - 01:22 PM (#3127729)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Much debris had to be cleared before the two bodies could be found and recovered from the 'basement'.
Cleaning up will be a long-term effort.

This led me to remember the basement complex of a tower complex built here. The basement level consisted of a number of cells, or 'rooms', some of which were open to house elevator bases, air circulation equipment and other appurtenances (such as the turbines in the reactor buildings), some walled off as unneeded, and merely part of the underpinnings of the tower complex.
I wonder if contaminated water could be leaking into something on the order of these 'cells', which would be hard to penetrate, but, if breached, could be culprits in water escape.
I don't have the plans of the Hitachi structure, so these musings have no support- just a passing thought.


03 Apr 11 - 01:30 PM (#3127732)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

NHK...

Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency says there has been no change in the amount of radioactive water seeping from the Fukushima nuclear plant after a polymer absorbent was injected into a cracked pit.

Tokyo Electric Power Company found on Saturday that contaminated water was leaking into the ocean from the 20-centimeter crack in the concrete pit.

On Sunday, the utility firm used a polymer absorbent to try to stop the leak of radioactive water.

The government's nuclear agency said the injection of the chemical began shortly after 1:40 PM, but it cannot confirm if there has been a decline in the amount of contaminated water leaking into the ocean.

The agency added that sawdust and newspapers were also used, but the absorbent did not reach the pipe. Engineers are now trying to mix the substance with the water.

The agency plans to continue monitoring the situation until Monday to see if there is a positive result.

Sunday, April 03, 2011 19:38 +0900 (JST)


The video also says that the sawdust is "stuck somewhere".


03 Apr 11 - 02:22 PM (#3127765)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

The word corrupt is still being put forth in ignorance. If miserly is meant, then say so.

However, replacing rather than 'patching' a reactor means construction of a new structure at a cost of near $1 billion.
Patch repairs done at Fukushima? Please quote reference. Are such repairs normally done in maintenance at nuclear plants? Who does them (if done), the installer or the operator? What is the approval route?

'Patch' repairs are normal on many expensive structures. The 'skin' (outer shell of airplanes) are replaced after a time period and many 'patches' are done over the 30 or so year lifetime of a primry service airliner before it is recycled. There are few major costly structures that aren't repaired over time, rather than being replaced.

Of course some regard all companies are corrupt; this implies that their employees and stockholders are complicit- sometimes many tens of thousands.


03 Apr 11 - 03:34 PM (#3127810)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Stringsinger

The thread should read "Nuclear plant disasters looming" as we look at
the one in New York City, the Diablo plant in Northern California and the
San Onofre in Southern California, with the one also in Detroit.

Obama on the nuclear soapbox may be assigning our country to a dangerous precedent.

Who wants nuclear waste in their back yard?

Who relishes the idea of living within the radius of an active nuclear plant particularly in
an earthquake fault?

Nuclear energy may give a new definition to "blowback".

Who thinks that Chernobyl or Three Mile Island won't happen again?

The argument isn't coal on one hand and nuclear on the other. False choice!

How about investing R and D in alternative energy sources to make them work?

If we can send a man to the moon, we can develop a viable alternative to coal, natural gas and nuclear energy.

Hey, people, it's your tax dollars at work here.


03 Apr 11 - 03:39 PM (#3127811)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

I will say corrupt. What is falsifying safety reports other than corrupt? And how did they get them through the system?

And there was a story in today's Oregonian about not only were they short of the booties to wear but the safety suits in general. How could they not get supplies like this in?

I would add so stupid that words do not describe it..I was talking to a journalist yesterday and asking her for words that are beyond inept, incompetent etc. There are no words for this level of incompetence. And the Japanese people, and especially the workers in the complex, need to know that we are watching this and speaking up for their safety and welfare. They are undoubtedly unable to speak up without fear of reprisal in some situations.

Well, I hope the fix that they are trying with newspapers works. mg


03 Apr 11 - 04:34 PM (#3127833)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

"Falsifying reports"? Not in the Portland Oregonian.

The report about the two workmen without the protective footware is old and was reported by the company.
A shortage of suits on site was reported by the company, but no one was sent into contaminated areas without them.

The company has been accused of being close-mouthed by the government and news media, but now seems to be reporting more fully.


03 Apr 11 - 04:53 PM (#3127839)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

More than 2.


03 Apr 11 - 05:07 PM (#3127843)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Again, source?

Or do you just like to falsify and/or invent reports?


03 Apr 11 - 05:32 PM (#3127860)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704559904576231742989493576.html


03 Apr 11 - 05:54 PM (#3127876)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Which is a review of the leadership of Tepco president Shimizu and his illness-

WSJ also carried two emails from workers on the reactors. Nothing about lack of equipment, numbers affected, etc., but they do indicate that the plant is like a war zone (which it certainly is).


03 Apr 11 - 06:16 PM (#3127889)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL

" They are undoubtedly unable to speak up without fear of reprisal in some situations."

Source? THere are and have been protests and outspoken criticism of the placement of these plants for years. There are demonstrations reported daily in Japan against the use of nuclear power since the earthquake. The mayor/governor of the province surrounding the plant has been apoplectic in his criticism and anger at both the government and Tokyo Electric.
The only "reprisals" I have read of are the shunnings of refugees from the affected areas. Old fears of deformed babies and radiation contamination have resurfaced. Even hospitals are refusing to treat children from the fallout area.
And I can find the source for that if I have to.

Right now we have only part of the story. Time will prove out who cut corners, compromised safety or simply made business decisions that appeared viable at the time. Hopefully, the world will have learned enough to prevent this happening again...but I doubt it.

Just a thought - until a few weeks ago, Tokyo Electric was a model citizen enabling Japan to provide a modern, healthy life for its citizens. I do not for one minute believe that anyone in the company played the Hollywood role of the Evil Corporate Monster whose greed put everyone and anyone in jeopardy. Sometimes, shit happens. When it does, we learn and move on. Or not. The executives and workers of Tokyo Electric are making themselves physically ill while trying to contain the damage. Some will die.

We are just finding out that similar nuclear plants exist here in the US on unacceptable sites endangered by earthquake probability. So - have we learned from Japan? Or will we wring our hands, tut tut a lot and forget about it when the baseball season takes over the front page?


03 Apr 11 - 06:17 PM (#3127890)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

Which was not a response to you. I will not be responding to you, although I did have a post that got lost that did give some good links, which are easily found on google. I do not engage personally with people that I believe are unhealthy to me. So last personal response.

I am wondering again why they can not reuse the contaminated water to cool things down. Is it too hot? Too contaminated? Oh goodness all pumps are in Taiwan at the present time? mg


03 Apr 11 - 06:29 PM (#3127893)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

If they die, and as they die, I want them to at least have basic comforts of food and water, and the thanks of a grateful nation/world. I want them to have safety equipment and monitoring.   I want the truth to be extracted from this company and I at the very least want it stripped of its nuclear programs..that should be turned over to some other entity. I want names of who signed off on false safety inspections in the past, and investigations to how recently this has happened...certainly in the 2000s, when executives were forced to retire over this. And now is the time to squawk, because lives are at stake. When all safety issues have been resolved then I will be sweet as sugar candy. mg


03 Apr 11 - 08:09 PM (#3127928)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL

I wonder if the destruction caused by first an earthquake, then a tsunami and lastly by continuing aftershocks might be playing a role in delays in getting manpower and supplies to the nuclear sites. I believe communications might have been affected as well.


03 Apr 11 - 08:37 PM (#3127938)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Sinsull-

I also cut TEPCO some slack because of that. The earthquake and tsunami were well above what reasonably might have been expected.

However, TEPCO does have a long record of covering up "incidents" in the nuclear facilities they run and the Japanese media does not aggressively challenge corporations when they do such misdeeds. I also don't have the references for these statements. I suppose I ought to do some more homework, or maybe someone else will track down some relevant articles. I'm probably thinking of a book published by Green Peace some 15 years ago which provided an international overview of what was happening.

Was it also TEPCO who was mismanaging the fast breeder sodium cooled plant in Japan about ten years ago which almost went critical? I remember reading about a group of workers who were sent in with garbage cans to clean up the mess... Maybe it all was a bad dream but just for fun, Q, you might do a Google search and correct my ancient memory.

Charley Noble


03 Apr 11 - 08:49 PM (#3127941)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

No, it wasn't TEPCO. According to Wikipedia it was an experimental fast breeder sodium cooled plant called Monju run by a governmental agency called Power Reactor and Nuclear Fuel Development Corporation: Click here for report!

"Monju Sodium Leak and Fire

On December 8, 1995, the reactor suffered a serious accident. Intense vibration caused a thermowell inside a pipe carrying sodium coolant to break, possibly at a defective weld point, allowing several hundred kilograms of sodium to leak out onto the floor below the pipe. Upon coming into contact with the air, the liquid sodium reacted with oxygen and moisture in the air, filling the room with caustic fumes and producing temperatures of several hundred degrees Celsius. The heat was so intense that it melted several steel structures in the room. An alarm sounded around 7:30 p.m., switching the system over to manual operations, but a full operational shutdown was not ordered until around 9:00 p.m., after the fumes were spotted. When investigators located the source of the spill they found as much as three tons of solidified sodium.

Fortunately, the leak occurred in the plant's secondary cooling system, so the sodium was not radioactive. However, there was massive public outrage in Japan when it was revealed that Power Reactor and Nuclear Fuel Development Corporation (PNC), the semigovernmental agency then in charge of Monju, had tried to cover up the extent of the accident and resulting damage. This coverup included falsifying reports and the editing of a videotape taken immediately after the accident, as well as the issuing of a gag order to employees regarding the existence of the real tapes."

Not a pretty incident and fortunately not a disaster. But certainly a major cover-up.

Charley Noble


03 Apr 11 - 10:08 PM (#3127957)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

The nuclear sites are right on the water. If every road was down there was still the sea and we are talking for the most part about very obtainable supplies..food, water, safety gear, cots, blankets. To say nothing of generators, hoses, etc. There was also the air. Helicopters etc. would be in short supply but this would be extremely high priority. And there are other countries who were trying to provide assistance. They could have walked troops or volunteers over some of the roads, torn up to be sure, but they looked walkable to me. THere are carts, animals, bicycles. Viet Cong could have figured it out. mg


03 Apr 11 - 10:48 PM (#3127970)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Ebbie

It seems to me that it should be noted that this whole complex is not the size of a Portland mall. We are speaking of tens of thousands of tons that have to be contained or neutralized, not a thousand pounds.


04 Apr 11 - 07:36 AM (#3128173)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Ebbie-

Yes, this nuclear disaster is a massive and messy problem.

Charley Noble


04 Apr 11 - 08:38 AM (#3128193)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL

And meantime, half a million people are homeless.
Today's news: it will be months before the cooling system is fully functional and years before the clean up is complete. 15,000 tons of radioactive water will be dumped into the ocean to join the leaking pollution which now is still a mystery.

The sky may not be falling but I for one do not believe that this will not affect fish supplies. I keep seeing a chart in school of a tiny fish eaten by a bigger fish eaten by a bigger fish etc. Each time a little more radiation is concentrated in the bigger fish. Fish move around the ocean and get eaten or die. Then lobsters and crabs feed on them.

Speculation over. I feel better.


04 Apr 11 - 12:15 PM (#3128347)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-04-03/a-japanese-firefighter-on-surviving-the-nuclear-reactors-and-radiation/2/

Would someone please make a blue clicky from that? neat view from a fellow who was there. Thank you. Yer welcome. --Mod


04 Apr 11 - 01:13 PM (#3128377)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

The catch-22 situation. Water is needed to cool the pools and reactors, radioactive water reaching the sea is increased. No storage possible except for the most radioactive waters.

It now is evident that melting took place in two reactor cores.
The workmen are limited in some places to as little as two minutes exposure. The examination cannot be examined close up.

The situation rivals Chernobyl.
Many early deaths from cancers in the coming years.


04 Apr 11 - 01:32 PM (#3128392)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

Again I wonder why they can't make, or better yet, get someone else to make, a moat of some type to hold the water and then repump it. Someone suggested filtering. Can you filter these particles? mg


04 Apr 11 - 02:01 PM (#3128412)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

999-

"Ken'ichi Kunisawa and his fellow firefighters braved boiling nuclear reactors for more than 13 hours. He talks to Lennox Samuels about radiation fears and why this wasn't a kamikaze mission."

Here's your link: click here!

Charley Noble


04 Apr 11 - 02:37 PM (#3128431)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/04/japan-nuclear-plant-radiation_n_844436.html

Mentions the dye used. I have wondered for days why they don't pump dye through to find out where cracks are. That is standard practice in some areas...

But why did they not use commercial dyes? It says they used salts used to make bathwater milky white. Why not bright red or pink dye made for some sort of purpose? What are they thinking? How can you tell milky white from regular ocean foam sometimes? At least as well as red dye. Who is in charge? Who did they consult?

Question every single thing they do because it probably needs it. Do not assume they have consulted with anybody, they have experts of their own on hand etc. Do not assume that they will act quickly even to just position supplies should they need them. mg


04 Apr 11 - 03:42 PM (#3128472)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

You can google radioactive waste filter and come up with stuff.

Here is a ceramic one
http://ceramics.org/ceramictechtoday/materials-innovations/quts-zhu-has-ceramic-filter-for-radioactive-waste/

Do you want to put bets on whether IIC (stands for Idiots In Charge) have even contacted him/her or anyone?

Someone on somewhere suggested hemp can filter. There are other filters possible it seems. This is good news. Oh goodness, we will have to go through our regular purchasing department and they are backed up. mg


04 Apr 11 - 03:47 PM (#3128474)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

here is one that attracts strontium through volcanic rock

http://buffalo.ynn.com/content/top_stories/521927/treatment-wall-to-filter-radioactive-waste/

One thing we have here in WA is lots of volcanic ash from Mt. St. Helen's..it has now grown over with weeds and trees and looks like little hills and dikes but underneath is almost solid ash. mg


04 Apr 11 - 04:29 PM (#3128484)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Thanks to both Charlie and the Mod for that link. Much appreciated.


04 Apr 11 - 05:20 PM (#3128514)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Radiation exposure times for Ibaraki Prefecture, others adjacent, plotted in charts, Japan Times, April 5.

For Ibaraki today, it would be equivalent to 320-360 weeks = sufficient exposure to cause radiation sickness (interactive chart).
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/radiation-visualization.html

Ibaraki


04 Apr 11 - 05:39 PM (#3128530)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

General Electric continues to have a team of 1000 engineers (employees and retired) working with TEPCO.
All of the plant's reactors were designed by GE.
GE is sending gas turbines to help deal with the power shortfall of 10 million kilowatts expected this summer.
Associated Press, writers, in Huffington Post, April 4, 2011.

The dye added to the suspected leak did not reach the sea. The leak is not from the crack in the pit.
(Same report)


04 Apr 11 - 05:51 PM (#3128544)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

mg - the ceramic filters you are talking about clearly DO NOT EXIST, from what the story says. They are a blue-sky idea that has never yet been tested experimentally, let alone put into production.

The Fukushima workers need to deal with tens of thousands of tons of dangerously radioactive water RIGHT NOW. They can't wait 20 years for the perfect product, nor can they afford to move in shiploads of stuff that has no proven record of doing anything at all (like hemp or volcanic ash).

Your speculations are offensively condescending.


04 Apr 11 - 05:58 PM (#3128548)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

If this does not go on for 20 years I for one will be very happy. mg


04 Apr 11 - 06:09 PM (#3128552)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST

THe way I read it the filter (oh maybe just one in all the world) does exist and the nanofibers exist..certainly not in quantity I am pretty sure. But here is a real live test they can do on a few prototypes..measure flow of a small area against how much is trapped.

And everyone in the world had best put their heads together on this..some ideas will be foolish and some will be flops and perhaps one will work. Or is better to be cynical if not nasty to people trying to help?

And something is going to filter this stuff sooner or later..baleen whales? Shellfish? Don't know. mg

from article about ceramic scientist

(Graphic: Zhu)
Water contaminated in nuclear power applications and other situations where radiactive elements used can be a significant problems, especially because of the volume compared to the actual amount of radiactive particles. What if there was a fairly simple way to run the water through a filter and remove those materials? Queensland University of Technology's Zhu Huai Yong says he has just such a filter. ......But Zhu's forté is ceramic filters. Zhu thinks there has to be a better way of storing contaminated fluids like water other than to put them in barrels or lakes. His idea involves ceramic fibers that will capture and "outlive" the decaying material.

"We have created ceramic nanofibres which attract and trap radioactive cations (positively charged ions), possibly forever," Zhu said. "The ceramic material can last a very long time, much longer than the radioactivity of a radioactive ion. The fibres are in very thin layers, less than one nanometre in width, and the radioactive ions are attracted into the space between the layers. Once the ceramic material absorbs a certain amount, the layers collapse to lock the radioactive ions inside."
Zhu's fibers are made from titanium dioxide, and are about 40 microns in length. In an interview with Nanowerk, Zhu explained some of the details behind his filter:

"Natural inorganic cation exchange materials, such as clays and zeolites, have been extensively studied and used in the removal of radioactive ions from water via ion exchange and are subsequently disposed of in a safe way. However, synthetic inorganic cation exchange materials – such as synthetic micas, g-zirconium phosphate, niobate molecular sieves, and titanate – have been found to be far superior to natural materials in terms of selectivity for the removal of radioactive cations from water. Radioactive cations are preferentially exchanged with sodium ions or protons in the synthetic material. More importantly, a structural collapse


04 Apr 11 - 06:10 PM (#3128554)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

that was me above of course committed to saving the planet. mg


04 Apr 11 - 09:32 PM (#3128658)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

About 2000 tons of fuel plus the radioactive water (which is heavy)
probably is close to 10000 tons of deadly mess


04 Apr 11 - 10:32 PM (#3128677)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

I'm also surprised that the TEPCO engineers didn't have a team working on at least increasing the storage capacity on-site for the huge volumes of radioactive water they were running through the damaged reactors and the spent fuel pools. It should have been evident early on that there was a problem being created. In fact I even anticipated this problem much earlier in this thread in one of my posts.

One might also think that after the water had cooled down in a tank or trench that it could be recycled and used for cooling again, another basic but useful concept that would add another cycle of radiation but wouldn't dump it into the bay.

But, no, someone decided that the bay was there as a source for emergency cooling and for a dump for radioactive waste.

TEPCO's decisions seem a classic example of short-run thinking generating long-run problems. And I bet everyone in the board room is ducking for cover.

Charley Noble


05 Apr 11 - 12:29 AM (#3128707)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

They must be shoved aside, and I mean at gun point if necessary, and have someone else take over..military, NATO, I don't know who...they are absolutely incompetent and lives have been lost and if no more lives are lost it will be a miracle...this is a public health nightmare, an environmetnal nightmare, an economic nightmare, and just wait until fish in North Korea are inedible for a starving population. Put as much pressure on through world opinion as possible. It is the only hope. mg


05 Apr 11 - 02:14 AM (#3128738)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Sorry I misspelled your name Charley.


05 Apr 11 - 03:30 AM (#3128765)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

According to Ken'ichi Kunisawa, (see linked article), the TEPCO workers and troops near the hot zone are putting their lives at risk to do what they can to get the situation under control. Having some outside group get in there uninvited, some outside group that's new to the situation would just add to the CF that seems to be going on. The folks I'd want to speak with were it my decision would be the firefighters and other personnel who worked the Chernobyl incident back in the 1980s. They've been there and done that.


05 Apr 11 - 05:36 AM (#3128809)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

I'm also surprised that the TEPCO engineers didn't have a team working on at least increasing the storage capacity on-site for the huge volumes of radioactive water they were running through the damaged reactors and the spent fuel pools.

They seem to have more problem collecting the water after it ran through than in storing it. IF they could have sucked it all up again, I suppose an empty oil tanker might do it (obviously they can't construct anything that big with the time they've got). But when it's all just running through cracks in the foundations, what else can they do but what they're doing now?

The priority has to be preventing a worse fuel melt (which could make the whole site inaccessible and send it on the path to total flaming
disintegration). They have to accept a certain amount of escaped coolant water to achieve that.


05 Apr 11 - 07:07 AM (#3128853)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Jim Martin

4,080 becquerels pr kg found in small fish (no limit for fish but 2,000 is limit for veg):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12967904


05 Apr 11 - 09:04 AM (#3128946)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Evidently no one here is making any effort to review reports of Japan's nuclear industry and TEPCO's particular history of accidents and cover-ups. One recent review via AP was filed two weeks ago and it is a damning report: click here for article

Here's an excerpt:

"Behind Japan's escalating nuclear crisis sits a scandal-ridden energy industry in a comfy relationship with government regulators often willing to overlook safety lapses.
Leaks of radioactive steam and workers contaminated with radiation are just part of the disturbing catalog of accidents that have occurred over the years and been belatedly reported to the public, if at all.

'"Everything is a secret,' said Kei Sugaoka, a former nuclear power plant engineer in Japan who now lives in California. 'There's not enough transparency in the industry.'
Sugaoka worked at the same utility that runs the Fukushima Dai-Ichi nuclear plant where workers are racing against time to prevent a full meltdown following Friday's 9.0 magnitude quake and tsunami.

In 1989 Sugaoka received an order that horrified him: edit out footage showing cracks in plant steam pipes in video being submitted to regulators(emphasis added). Sugaoka alerted his superiors in the Tokyo Electric Power Co., but nothing happened. He decided to go public in 2000. Three TEPCO executives lost their jobs."

Wikipedia has similar incidents summarized for TEPCO over the years (lower down in same link) and it's obvious that TEPCO's management of its facilities is substandard if not criminal. Check it out if you have your doubts.

Charley Noble


05 Apr 11 - 10:57 AM (#3129026)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

NHK

The operator of the crisis-hit Fukushima nuclear plant has injected a hardening agent beneath a leaking concrete pit in a bid to stem the flow of highly radioactive water into the sea.

The firm says the leakage seems to be decreasing, following the infusion of the hardening agent.

The utility showed reporters a photo of the leak on Tuesday evening, saying it indicates such a decrease.

TEPCO said it will infuse another 1,500 liters of liquid glass.

Tokyo Electric Power Company started infusing liquid glass into gravel below the pit near the Number 2 reactor at 3 PM on Tuesday.

TEPCO spotted a crack in the pit 3 days ago while trying to find the source of the leakage of contaminated water into the Pacific Ocean.

Since then, the utility has tried in vein to seal the pit with concrete, or to plug piping leading into it with a polymer mixture.

A test using a dye agent showed the possibility that the radioactive water is leaking from a cracked pipe, and then seeping through gravel into the concrete pit.

TEPCO is planning to board up the breached sections of an offshore dike to prevent the tainted water from spreading further into the sea.

It is also considering building underwater barriers at 3 locations, including one near a water intake for the Number 2 reactor.

Tuesday, April 05, 2011 20:24 +0900 (JST)

And the pics show a much reduced flow.

Small fish caught in waters off the coast of Ibaraki have been found to contain radioactive cesium above the legal limit.

Ibaraki is south of Fukushima prefecture, where the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant is located.

Ibaraki Prefecture says 526 becquerels of radioactive cesium was detected in one kilogram of sand lances. The acceptable limit is 500 becquerels. It is the first time that higher-than-permitted levels of radioactive cesium have been found in fish.

All local fishery cooperatives in the prefecture have agreed to suspend sand lance fishing at the request of the prefectural government.

Tuesday, April 05, 2011 18:58 +0900 (JST)

The operator of the stricken Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant says 7.5 million times the legal limit of radioactive iodine 131 has been detected from samples of seawater near the plant.

Tokyo Electric Power Company, or TEPCO, found on Saturday that contaminated water was leaking from a cracked concrete pit near the No. 2 reactor.

Experts say this makes it clear that highly radioactive substances from the reactor are flowing into the sea, and that the leak must be stopped as soon as possible.

The utility firm said samples of water taken near the water intake of the No. 2 reactor at 11:50 AM Saturday contained 300,000 becquerels of iodine 131 per cubic centimeter, or 7.5 million times the legal limit.
TEPCO said the figure had dropped to 200,000 becquerels per cubic centimeter, or 5 million times the legal limit, in samples taken at 9:00 AM Monday.

Monday's sample also contained 1.1 million times the legal limit of cesium 137, which has a half life of 30 years.

On March 27th, 13-million becquerels of iodine 131 per cubic centimeter of water were detected in the turbine building of the No. 2 reactor. On Wednesday, water was found accumulated in a tunnel near the turbine building and the radiation level on the surface was measured at more than 1,000 millisieverts per hour.

The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency says it believes the radioactive substances are from nuclear fuel which leaked from the reactor into the water and flowed out.

Tuesday, April 05, 2011 15:10 +0900 (JST)


05 Apr 11 - 11:48 AM (#3129070)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

"Somehow water is leaking from the plant into the sea"

"It seems that radiation has spread with the normal wind currents but radiation is a normal part of the universe"









Am I the only one who is outraged by this kind of rhetorical propoganda ?


It seems protecting the concept of a same sustainable economy is the paramount reason to lie with such elegance words as "somehow" and "seems" For Fukwitt's sake, didn't you see and hear reactor 2 EXPLODE? Talking about how safe radioactive Iodine is...is horrible crime. Speaking of how Iodine goes away quickly to the exclusion of talking about the isotopes that virtually NEVER go away is a despicable lie.


05 Apr 11 - 11:50 AM (#3129071)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Kudos to all here who help counter the lie by posting real time data


05 Apr 11 - 11:52 AM (#3129073)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

gnu-

"Radioactive cesium" in fish is a major health problem. As mentioned somewhere above Cesium-137 has a half-life of 30 years or so, and remains dangerous to roughly ten times that period. It tends to accumulate in the bodies of whoever eats it (other fish, raptors, or humans) rather than being discharged. Thus, over time, it becomes an increasing threat to life as we know it.

"TEPCO said the figure had dropped to 200,000 becquerels per cubic centimeter, or 5 million times the legal limit, in samples taken at 9:00 AM Monday."

And that's the good news...

Charley Noble


05 Apr 11 - 12:59 PM (#3129120)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

A bit of digression. Many ideas for product or safety improvement may not reach the decision-makers. Suggestions being made here, and many others, may have been thought of and proposed, but died on the way to the decision makers.

I was thinking about the structure of the average corporation.
There often is a disjunct between the objectives at the decision levels in the hierarchy. From the top:

CEO and Board
These men usually habe proven ability to maximize shareholder shareholder profit and expansion. They may have little detailed knowledge of the company's products, whether widgets or resources.

Heads of Operations
These men may have risen from the technical ladder, but most often are from the business management divisions- marketing, finance.
Their decisions are based on the upper level's need (shareholder profit and expansion) although they depend on the chiefs of the divisions producing the product or resource.

Divisional Operations
These groups have the technical manpower with the expertise to develop and improve the product, or to find and exploit the resource.
Although they are the basis of the company, they are not concerned with the marketing, presentation, politics of the product or resource. Usually there is a group that considers the safety of product and employees and makes recommendations for improvement.

A division at the base may have a good idea, which they present to their management heads. It may be accepted and presented to the next level, or it may be shelved- budget, set-up expense, price, outside the scope of a directive from on high, etc.

Heads of operations organize and present the product, resource development or safety provisions to the Board and CEO, whose decisions are based on marketability, economy of operation, fit to shareholders needs, politics, etc.

The technical employees at the bottom thus often see an idea, product or safety recommendation die or be shelved, never reaching the top of the hierarchy.

Some companies try to establish good communications among the levels but some are rigid and comunication is discouraged or punished. TEPCO may have been a member of the latter group.


05 Apr 11 - 01:07 PM (#3129133)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Note:

An established LEGAL LIMIT
carries with it an established cost risk benefit in which a certain number of acceptable deaths is deemed legal.

Do not let the words legal limit ever become equated with SAFE.


05 Apr 11 - 01:22 PM (#3129145)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Q-

I like your outline of the issues relating to the different levels within a hierarchy. The corporate culture of TEPCO will certainly get some much needed attention.

In this case, with TEPCO, we're somewhat aware of how the entire hierarchy got stressed after the earthquake and tsunami, and stressed further as the disaster continues to unfold. We don't know who or what group (or whether they were replaced) was put in charge of trying to deal with this disaster.

What we don't know is how well it functioned in "normal operating condition" except for the incidents in its history. Were safety concerns of those at the operating level overlooked by those higher up?

Charley Noble


05 Apr 11 - 01:32 PM (#3129158)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Too true Q. And, I have found the propensity for such in a corporation is directly proportional to the size of the corporartion. Which may explain why the government departments (Canuck, at least) are so incompetent and wasteful.

I've posted this on other threads... I was once told to design a structure (I designed for a 40 year life but could have designed for 20 and still slept at night) for a 5 year life because the CEO had a 5 year contract. Now, 5 years for this structure was impossible but so was the attitude of the VP. He didn't give a shit about life cycle costs, only about the "costs" until he retired.

Another thing that I found was that some managers would not take ideas upward as they didn't want to be seen as not having done their jobs better in the past.


05 Apr 11 - 01:33 PM (#3129159)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

Safety concerns? Try safety inspections..widely reported they were falsified and people had to resign and they shut down a number of plants..easily verifiable...

And the president is or was in the hospital. Don't know if it was him or next in command...but I would assume engineers would be at the top. No, it was someone who had been in charge of procurement. Now this makes their utter inability to procure simple things, like food, even more astounding.

I do not know if they have some sort of specialized knowledge that keeps them at the helm..they are concealing it well if there is..but they need to be told what to do and when. And face the law as soon as possible. mg


05 Apr 11 - 02:09 PM (#3129182)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20110405x1.html

From Japan

We will hopefully be able to laugh about some of this in the future..the milky white bath salts instead of professional, easily obtainable dyes in standard usage for example.

Now they plan to board up the sea to make an enclosed lagoon. By board up I presume they mean with boards. Well, lots of them available. Where are the experts? Where is the military? Do they not have a navy? An air force? Can the "procurement" experts step it up a bit?

mg


05 Apr 11 - 03:01 PM (#3129218)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

What is your problem with them using bath salts as a tracer, if it works? - which it appears to have done.

One piece of instrumentation they might be using is partly composed of earwax. It just happens that earwax is the ideal substance for the job, however silly you might find the idea.


05 Apr 11 - 03:17 PM (#3129225)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

They are talking about tanker trucks I think to store the bad water in..why not oil tanker type ships. Surely someone has some about to be scrapped. Or that should be and are still sailing. mg


05 Apr 11 - 04:20 PM (#3129285)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

mg-

They may not be able to approach close enough with a large tanker in the adjacent bay. However, an oil barge might well suit their purposes, if they didn't sink it. They're already using barges to transport fresh water to the plant site. So barges could certainly be towed in, unload their fresh water and then load up with the evil radioactive water, becoming so much more nuclear waste themselves in the process, and then be towed somewhere else.

Charley Noble


05 Apr 11 - 04:32 PM (#3129294)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

I miss the press updates from UCS. None since Thursday.


05 Apr 11 - 04:37 PM (#3129299)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

What is the latest on filters?

And here is something

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/apr/05/tokyo-electric-power-company-turns-toxic


05 Apr 11 - 04:43 PM (#3129311)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Tow them somewhere else? Puget Sound? (Opposite side of the country from you, Charley.)

The idea is not likely, because they would have to be emptied (into what?) and decontaminated before other use or scrapping. They would be pariahs anywhere.


05 Apr 11 - 05:06 PM (#3129329)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Barges or tankers COULD work if necessary, but tanks are much more logistically possible at present... or a combination. I think it's just logistics, as I said earlier. If the world wants to contain the crap it can. Heck, the Japanese could do it if the rest of the world wanted to take one for the team and not take delivery of tanks on order in lieu of saving the planet (yeah, I know... but it's a small world innit?). All it takes is the will and the money and they have said they have lots of money. There are lots of tanks under construction at any given moment all over the world.


05 Apr 11 - 05:21 PM (#3129344)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

They have submitted plans for more reactors same spot

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/amid_nuclear_crisis_japans_tepco_planned_new_reactors/2011/04/05/AFtBbfkC_story.html?wprss=rss_homepage

Granted..it was in the works and you could see how it could slip through in the ensuing chaos...but it sounds like they really pushed for it as the crisis was going on..and still is.

I just can not wrap my head around this. But they have to go. The most they should be allowed to do is clean new energy. mg


05 Apr 11 - 05:25 PM (#3129350)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

I think we have to not look at this as a democracy, which is pretty recent...but as remnants of a feudal system.

The farmer serfs..oh well.

Worker serfs..just keep them locked up in the plant to do or die.

Fisher serfs..oh well.

Baby serfs..so sad.

Mama-san and Papa-san serfs .. we do not have to tell them bugger all or provide food or water for days and days. It is OK to lie to m and p serfs. What do serfs know anyway? mg


05 Apr 11 - 07:25 PM (#3129433)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

From the BBC today:

Russia says Japan has asked it to send a radiation treatment ship used to dispose of liquid nuclear waste from decommissioned submarines.

The ship, called Suzuran, treats radioactive liquid and stores it. Russia was considering the request, a spokesman for its nuclear agency said.


So, they're a long step ahead of what I suggested. I didn't know there were ships like that.


05 Apr 11 - 07:47 PM (#3129451)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Japanese engineer: "When designing a nuclear plant we do not look at scary things we do not want think about, its just human nature"


05 Apr 11 - 08:02 PM (#3129457)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Don, buddy, cmon eh?


05 Apr 11 - 08:33 PM (#3129474)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Jack-

"Russia says Japan has asked it to send a radiation treatment ship used to dispose of liquid nuclear waste from decommissioned submarines. The ship, called Suzuran, treats radioactive liquid and stores it."

Interesting that the Russians would have something like that. I wonder if it really works or simply sucks it up and then regurgitates it into someone else's back bay. But I like the name of the ship, the Suzuran; it will work well in the song.

I was thinking that the barges would be towed to some on-shore facility that was properly designed for processing and compacting radioactive water. But I'm not even sure if they have one in Japan. Why would they need one when nothing like this is likely to happen?

There's no reason for other countries to be smug. Their own redundant back-up systems may also be equally vulnerable to natural or terrorist events.

Charley Noble


05 Apr 11 - 08:56 PM (#3129484)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Radioactive water has stopped leaking into the sea after gravel beneath the concrete pit was hardened after pouring 1500 liters of the hardening agent, liquid glass, into the gravel.
Tepco, April 6.
Low-level radioactive water continues flowing into the sea to make space for higher-level radioactive water.
Tepco is trying to control radioactive dust by spraying a synthetic resin around the reactors. The company reports success with this operation.
NHK world news, April 6, 2011.

Sand lance (a fish) fishing has stopped off the Ibaraki coast because the radioactive caesium in the fish reached 526 becquerels (limit is 500).
The high levels of caesium and iodine are believed to have been leakage from the reactor, according to the NISA (Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency).
NHK April 5.


05 Apr 11 - 09:56 PM (#3129502)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

I read somewhere the facility (didn't know it was a ship) was funded by Japan. mg


05 Apr 11 - 10:27 PM (#3129509)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Good news, Q.


05 Apr 11 - 11:07 PM (#3129521)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

I just saw video of the water leak from yesterday compared to today. Today instead of a gusher 9 inches round it is a 1 inch spour of water. CNN

They said the stresses are continuing to mount at the reactors.

The worst case scenario of many reactors melting simultaneously remains a possibility.

There has been outside help fromt he US Navy and teams of NRC and others. France is said to be contributing some help.

Yes as it is today it is a disaster. Tommorrow could bring world wide calamity whether people are told or not.

Japan has suffered grim birth defects from mercury poisoning alongits shores contaminating the fish. The level of contamination form Fukushima AND Daiachi is unthinkable.


06 Apr 11 - 12:18 AM (#3129558)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Minamata disease--so called because the effects of mercury poisoning were first recognized there--were in Japan in Minamata Bay. The effects were seen some (I don't remember how many) years later in Dryden, Ontario, when Native people were diagnosed as having the same symptoms. Absolutely terrible effects that can make me cry to this day. Alfred Troyer wrote the book on it. These are two very different issues, Don. Let us not confuse them.

Dryden was a town I was only too happy to leave behind. It stunk, and the pulp company that was there did nothing, with help from bastards in the Ontario government. The crippling effects should make any thinking person ashamed, but it didn't and still hasn't. There were only about thirty people or so involved. They were people who ate fish from the narrows, and because there IS an accumulation of mercury in the folks at the 'top' of the food chain, that being humans, we paid the price for their arrogance. I think the fuckers should be shot.

I am not a believer in capital punishment, but sometimes there are exceptions. They are some of those exceptions, my peace/love friends notwithstanding.


06 Apr 11 - 12:27 AM (#3129565)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

Has anyone asked the obvious question as to what the qualifications of TEPCO officials are that would allow them to run nuclear facilities (badly)? I was stunned to find out either #1 or #2 was a procurement specialist, with some background in a cable company. That gives me confidence. Are there engineers higher up? Is it all run by _____? Not that non-engineers are automatically _____, but surely there have to be people higher up with some knowledge? They don't seem to have emerged but they must be somewhere? mg


06 Apr 11 - 12:34 AM (#3129571)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Are there engineers higher up? Is it all run by _____?

The zaibatsu maybe? Japan is NOT a democracy as we know it, Mary. I know I am on your so-called black list, but give it a thought anyway, will ya?


06 Apr 11 - 12:35 AM (#3129573)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

I googled

http://www.myimpact.ch/Our%20Work/Our%20work_book%20MyImpact/Interviewees/Asia/Japan/Our%20work_book%20MyImpact_Interviewee_TEPCO_main.htm

Three administrators featured..backgrounds in law, economics and economics. Now I am even more confident.

Say they can't use wind energy because of "restriction of useable land and the generally steep seafloor" ...oh good news gentlemen..there will be probably some useable land available very soon. Not useable for too much else but useable for wind. Likewise sea. Oh, too steep. Put it on floats then. Then they talk about how it is too mountainous. I bet there is some wind up in those mountains.

I also bet they are going to discover an awful lot of wind in the weeks and months to come. mg


06 Apr 11 - 03:11 AM (#3129609)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

"oh good news gentlemen."

And ladies!


06 Apr 11 - 03:27 AM (#3129619)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

The criticality (ission bursts( that I hae warned about since day 1 are now confirmed.

REACTOR 1 has gone critical in continuing cycles of neutron bursts.
Those who see it will regret having seen it with their own eyes.

THere are many links to the blue beams of neutrons at reactor 1 but this crowd would probably appreciate this mild mannered guy who speaks on the subject.

Reactor one is currently having runaway fission explosions

This is the stuff of neutron bombs.


btw If a massive criticality wipes out a 50 miles radius of all life it is said that all the people and animals will not decay in the traditional way. They will appear pristine and fresh until dehydration alone changes the appearence. The reason for this is the same as the radiation they might use to preserve meat products at your grocery store. All the bacteria of putrification are sterilized and allow the bodies to stay permanently fresh.


06 Apr 11 - 03:42 AM (#3129623)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

You slight too many people here, Don. You are a genius, but you are not the only smart person here. Ease up a bit. Please.

While so many here think they are saving the world, they are in fact dealing with a very serious hazmat situation. Let's not get caught up in our own rhetoric. Work the problem, not the other things to do with recrimination. If we survive it all there will be time for recrimination later. Right now, the problem IS the problem, imo.


06 Apr 11 - 03:43 AM (#3129625)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

You know that video with Arnie GUnderson you just saw?,   well he is a shill for the NRC and owners of nuclear plants. He has his little fairwinds group to sell his services to shape public opinion anytime there is an accidnet at a nuke plant.

The first 7 days of the Fukushima disaster he was on FOx news shows yelling that nothing is wrong and no one ever died in amy nuclear plant and on and on as these paid actors with degrees are supposed to do.
------------------------------------------------------------------
So when Arnie comes out and admits of the criticalities cycling up and down in reactor 1 ...IT IS A BIG DEAL.
------------------------------------------------------------------
This guy had no qualms lieing about the safety of nuclear power on FOX in a raised voice trying to out shout the "liberal guest with the opposite view" as they so dealy love to do on FOX for 'excitement TV'.


06 Apr 11 - 04:02 AM (#3129641)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

All that's true. But right now it isn't the problem.


06 Apr 11 - 04:39 AM (#3129654)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

OK, this is the time to ge my credit card out, right?   Shopping spree here I come! By the time they'll almost have caught up with me we'll all be putrified..


Now, I've had my eye on a REALLY BIG bottle of Chanel No 5 for many a long year...dreamin' dreamin' dreamin'...but now I can make that dream come true and be the only person on the planet who'll smell heavenly rather than hellish when the aliens discover my glowing blob, several thousand light years from now...

Maybe they'll decide I was a Queen or maybe even...a Goddess!


Apologies for my black sense of humour, but in times of Great Shite it always comes to the forefront...


06 Apr 11 - 05:52 AM (#3129702)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

Minamata disease--so called because the effects of mercury poisoning were first recognized there--were in Japan in Minamata Bay. The effects were seen some (I don't remember how many) years later in Dryden, Ontario, when Native people were diagnosed as having the same symptoms. Absolutely terrible effects that can make me cry to this day. Alfred Troyer wrote the book on it.

Didn't know that - thanks. The book about Minamata was by W. Eugene Smith, working for the Magnum photo agency at the time. The company's goons beat him up so badly when covering a protest by the victims that he was disabled for the rest of his life. Would that happen today? Probably not but I don't know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minamata_disease

Minamata did far more damage than the Fukushima plant has, so far.


06 Apr 11 - 07:32 AM (#3129747)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Jim Martin

A bit more on the Russian floating nuclear treatment ship:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12981243


06 Apr 11 - 08:21 AM (#3129772)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Thanks for the BBC link, Jim. Here's the relevant excerpt:

"On Tuesday, Japan asked Russia for the use of a floating radiation treatment plant to tackle waste water.

Russia's nuclear agency Rosatom said it was awaiting answers to some questions before granting the request to lend the Landysh, known in Japanese as the Suzuran, which is used to decommission Russian nuclear submarines in the far eastern port of Vladivostok.

One of the world's largest liquid radioactive waste treatment plants, the Landysh treats radioactive liquid with chemicals and stores it in a cement form.

It can process 35 cubic metres of liquid waste a day and 7,000 cubic metres a year."

MATH EXERCISE

Think about this: "35 cubic metres of liquid waste a day" when they are currently dumping "some 11,500 tonnes of low-level radioactive seawater into the sea so the more highly contaminated water can be stored in waste buildings." Someone please recheck my math but "35 cubic metres" of water weighs about 7500 lbs. Since 2240 lbs equals 1 tonne, 7500 lbs should equal 3.3 tonnes. Therefore is would take 3485 days to process 11,500 tonnes of the current inventory of low-level radioactive seawater, or almost 10 years. And that's if everything goes right and no more radioactive water is added to the inventory.

I wonder what the Russians do with the radioactive cement blocks they produce with the above process? No, I don't won't to know.

Oh, and I like the name Landysh even better than Suzuran for the name of the reprocessing ship, an outlandish name if there ever was one!

Time to check for further developments.

Charley Noble


06 Apr 11 - 09:00 AM (#3129800)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

One cubic metre of water has a mass of one tonne. About 2200 pounds.


06 Apr 11 - 09:07 AM (#3129803)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Q... yeah, I know... about 69 slugs would be proper.


06 Apr 11 - 09:23 AM (#3129816)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

I'm still haunted by what to do with thousands of "radioactive cement blocks."

Wouldn't they be perfect for constructing a wall around the United States to protect us from illegal immigrants, and to discourage our own citizens from fleeing this country illegally?

Charley Noble


06 Apr 11 - 09:28 AM (#3129819)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Nothing new I can find on the Union of Concerned Scientists website.

Here're two short news releases from NIRS (Nuclear Information Resource Service):

"UPDATE, 4:30 pm Tuesday, April 5, 2011. Japan's NHK TV is reporting that a plant worker at Fukushima Daiichi says that radiation levels inside the reactors buildings of Units 1-3 are "immeasurable"—so high that their radiation monitors have been rendered useless. The report states that levels of 10 rems/hour have been measured even outside the buildings.

UPDATE, 11:00 am, Tuesday, April 5, 2011. The Los Angeles Times is reporting that radioactive Iodine-131 has been measured in seawater near Fukushima at 7.5 million times the legal limit. Perhaps even more worrisome is that radioactive Cesium-137 has been measured at more than 1 million times the limit. The Cesium is likely to lodge in sediment in the region and remain a factor for marine life and fishing for perhaps centuries.

Fish caught in the region already have been measured with excess cesium levels. In response, Japan has established its first standards for radiation levels in fish. Close tracking and monitoring of sea currents and radiation levels will be critical."

Charley Noble


06 Apr 11 - 09:42 AM (#3129829)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: 3refs

Only in Canada!

I've gone back and read some of the previous posts, but saw nothing with regards to Canada shutting down all of it's radiation monitoring stations. We have about 100 of these things across the country and according to the Ministry of Natural Resources there is no need to keep them operational at this time!

They shut them down March 25, I think?


06 Apr 11 - 11:42 AM (#3129886)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

3refs--the cutsie thing falsely attributed to the ostrich may be at play here. What they don't know they can't tell us. I'd give ten to one odds that the gov'ment had a hand in this. Don't want to take the limelight away from Stevie-poo. Bastards!


06 Apr 11 - 12:34 PM (#3129915)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Andy Jackson

This all makes pretty grim reading but is anybody doing anything, or even thinking about the thousands of ordinary decent human beings who are suffering so badly in the aftermath of the tsunami. I'm sure they worry enough about today without dreading the future. I hope their lack of radio and TV means at least that they may be spared the worst of the stories.


06 Apr 11 - 12:44 PM (#3129926)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Read that the leak has been stopped.


06 Apr 11 - 01:19 PM (#3129942)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

U. S. government engineers helping with the crisis in Japan are warning of fresh threats that could persist indefinitely, and may increase as a result of the very measures being taken to keep the plant stable- a document prepared by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
1. Mounting stresses on containment structures as they fill with radioactive cooling water.
2. Possibility of explosions inside containment structures due to release of hydrogen and oxygen from seawater pumped into the reactors.
3. Flow of fresh water meant to cool the nuclear cores are impeded by semimolten fuel rods and salt buildup.
4. If fuel continues to heat and melt because of ineffective cooling, that could leave a radioactive mass that could stay molten for an extended period.

The document appears to rely largely on date shared with American experts by the Japanese.

The document suggests that fragments or particles of nuclear fuel from spent fuel pools were blown up to one mile from the units and a piece of highly radioactive material that fell between two reactors had to be bulldozed over to protect workers at the site.

David A. Lochbaum, who now directs the nuclear safety project at the Union of Concerned Scientists, said the welter of problems revealed in the document made a successful outcome even more uncertain.

Steps recommended by the nuclear commission include injecting nitrogen, inert gas, into containment structures in an attempt to purge them of hydrogen and oxygen, which could combine to produce explosions.
TEPCO is taking steps to inject nitrogen into one of the containment vessels.

The document also recommends adding boron to cooling water to prevent the cores from restarting the nuclear reaction, a process known as criticality. The engineers who wrote the report did not consider this likely, however.

The document, prepared for the commission's Reactor Safety Team, which is assisting the Japanese government and TEPCO, is based on numerous Japanese and American organizations (listed).

The document contains detailed assessments of each reactor.
The article contains some of these details, and is worth reading.

"The U. S. Sees Array of New Threats at Japan's Nuclear Plant," James Glanz and William Broad, New York Times, April 5, 2011.

The U. S. experts working with the Japanese update the report regularly; little substantial has been added since March 26.


06 Apr 11 - 01:34 PM (#3129953)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Much is being done to help survivors, and refugees from the effects of the tsunami and radiation, but the American press doesn't cover much of it.
Look at the online English versions of the major Japanese media, or Japanese TV if your cable company carries it.

Japan, along with South Korea, are the most "wired" nations, with countless small news media, private as well as government television, and most Japanese use cell phones and internet heavily.

The problems of assistance and reconstruction are many, the costs are estimated at $300-600 billion, and a long time before anything approaching normality returns.

Looking at Katrina, I doubt that the response in the U. S. would be as good.


06 Apr 11 - 02:29 PM (#3129990)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

from npr on various aspects

http://www.npr.org/2011/04/06/135175611/in-wake-of-nuclear-crisis-tepcos-plans-questioned

Oh NPR you are wrong to say tsunami size could not have been predicted. Pooey..they are predicting way worse for the west coast of USA all the time..I have heard 70 feet, I have heard 20 to 30 feet..they told us on the phone call to evacuate that a tsunami here could be up to 10 feet..unclear whether it would have been a big rush, or as some people prefer to think, a gentle filling like a bathtub. That would be my preference and is often suggested as to what will happen here. But they don't know..Brookings OR got smashed in this tsunami, as did I think Redwood City CA..the harbors anyway and fishing fleets. Oh absolutely and positively anyone over here could have said expect a 40 foot tsunami at least with a 9 earthquake..

As to evacuees etc..I imagine things are way better now..but why keep elderly in those conditions that long? As I said about the second day..get them to a cruise ship and drive them around for a while if you have to..ask nursing homes or even shelters with heat and water farther away to take them. Get them to a city out of danger and arrange for family to take them if possible. Ask strangers, screened, churches etc. to take them into homes. Ask other countries..I said I could take two younger women as I live in a tiny cabin with an attic room they would have to climb into..lots of people would take in families with small children. Colleges could find room for college-age students...there was no excuse for some of the delays and suffering..when people are possibly pinned under a refrigerator with a broken back and mud in their nostrils you do not have the luxury of time. You have to move fast with everything you have and call for outside help and certainly not turn down trained help, as they did, on your doorstep, which they were. mg


06 Apr 11 - 03:27 PM (#3130041)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

insights from ex-governor of area

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20110407a5.html

This is all very important, and obvious, because you can not have possible scoundrals running this in such a way to protect people from discovering things, as well as more generic incompetence. LWhy are they allowed to present their own data and measurements? Where are the universities at least sending out parallel measurements? Why are they just allowed to "do" things without supervision or outright takeover? Some things, granted, have to be done in emergency situations..so some things are unavoidable..but they all have huge repurcussions with their own people, their neighbors etc. Huge diplomatic problems going on here, and are they even informing the government, which seems subservient to them, of what they are doing? Probably more now, but totally? South Korea was upset it was not informed of stuff..have they informed North Korea? That is a ticking time bomb, and 1/4 of its population is facing starvation I have read. I am not writing a term paper here, so look it up yourselves.

I know some people are saying don't kick them when they are down, let it play out first and then judge them. Not me, not when lives, fishereies, atmosphere, economy and world stability..i.e. think North Korea..is at stake. mg


06 Apr 11 - 07:43 PM (#3130180)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

I'm still haunted by what to do with thousands of "radioactive cement blocks."

They have a rather better chance of staying where you put them than a radioactive lake or a cloud of radioactive steam, which are the alternatives.

With that throughput, it looks like the Landysh/Suzuran is designed to cope with fairly high-level waste, substantially more hazardous than what's been let out to sea. There is a lot of that to deal with. It may not be the complete solution but it should be a useful extra resource.


06 Apr 11 - 08:20 PM (#3130188)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL

Some mention today of dangerously radioactive pieces strewn as far as a mile from the plant from explosions. Also, radioactive corpses not yet collected.

The reports I have seen on people in shelters seem to show that people are crowded and uncomfortable but safe and fed. Schools are re-opening.

The Japanese economy must be in a shambles with so many places shut down and so many out of work.


06 Apr 11 - 11:01 PM (#3130245)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Jack-

I was assuming that the Russian radioactive waste processing ship would only be dealing with low-level radioactively contaminated water. With regard to the highly radioactive water under the reactors, I believe they intend to store them in place. It's true that the bricks produced by the ship would be very radioactive but still not classified as "high-level nuclear waste"; that designation is reserved for spent fuel and reactor components. I realize I'm shifting from the absurdity of this situation to better defining what we're dealing with.

The Russian ship is a helpful asset, assuming that it really works. My math exercise above, however, demonstrated that it would take a lot of such ships to get the job done in say less than a year.

Q-

"U. S. government engineers helping with the crisis in Japan are warning of fresh threats"

That's very interesting information, and quite appropriately alarming. There is still a major chance of another hydrogen explosion or even a criticality event.

Charley Noble


07 Apr 11 - 08:02 AM (#3130420)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Jim Martin

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12992284


07 Apr 11 - 08:48 AM (#3130439)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

I'm going to try to redo my math for processing 35 cubic metres of radioactive water per day.
I think I got lost in conversions above.

So 1 cubic metre of water weights about 56 lbs. Check!

Therefore 35 cubic metres of water should weigh about 1960 lbs or .875 tonnes. Check!

Therefore, in one year 319 tonnes of water could be processed. Check!

Since there is an inventory of 11,500 tonnes of water to be processed, it would then take 36 years to do the job, not 10 years as I posted above.

Hopefully, that answer is approximately correct. More coffee needed!

Charley Noble


07 Apr 11 - 09:09 AM (#3130449)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Jack Campin

Charley, please don't go into the swimming pool installation business.

I cubic meter = 100 x 100 x 100 = 1,000,000 cubic centimetres = 1000 litres (not quite exactly) = 1000 kilograms for fresh water, a bit more for salt = 1 metric tonne.


07 Apr 11 - 09:10 AM (#3130450)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

The Union of Concerned Scientists have posted April 6 their summary of research relating to the impact of Chernobyl with regard to the incidence of cancer and cancer deaths: click here for report!

If one only considers the residents and emergency workers from the "more contaminated areas" 1986-1987 there would be about 4000 more cancer deaths attributed to the accident. If one includes the entire world affected by the plume, the number rises to about 34,000. The number I see reported by conservator commentators in the newspaper is generally 30 deaths, those of the first responders within a year of the incident.

Charley Noble


07 Apr 11 - 09:16 AM (#3130458)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Jack-

You're probably correct. And I'll stay away from designing swimming pools or spent fuel pools.

So how much in lbs does a cubic metre of water weigh? Evidently much more than 56 lbs.

Charley Ignoble


07 Apr 11 - 09:35 AM (#3130471)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

A cubic meter of water weighs about 2200 pounds. There can be differences depending on the salinity of the water or temperature, etc., but not enough to affect the answer for the purposes here. Pretty much what Jack said below.


07 Apr 11 - 09:53 AM (#3130478)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

999-

2200 pounds! Well, you folks are being very kind to me. A cube that's only 39.36 inches on a side...

Charley Ignoble.


07 Apr 11 - 10:15 AM (#3130493)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

From various places on the www--lest anyone think I understand this stuff.


Water

Weight: 62.416 pounds per cubic foot at 32°F
Weight: 61.998 pounds per cubic foot at 100°F

1 cubic meter = 35.3146667 cubic foot

So, 35.3 cubic ft in a cubic meter at 62.4 lbs a cu ft.

We then multiply 35.3 x 62.4 and get 2202 lbs or pounds.

Sea water will weigh a bit more because of the salt that's in it. These calculations are rough, and science people have these types of conversions programmed into their calculators.

Until the day she died my mother was convinced that when Canada went metric and that because Calgary and Edmonton had been about 200 miles from each other by highway, that since they were now about 300 km apart with the new measurement system, the cities themselves had got further apart.


07 Apr 11 - 11:03 AM (#3130535)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

The Guardian reports Japan was just hit by a 7.3 magnitude quake. No details as yet.


07 Apr 11 - 11:04 AM (#3130537)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

We try again?

So 1 cubic metre of water weights about 2200 lbs. Check!

Therefore 35 cubic metres of water should weigh about 77,000 lbs or 34.3 tonnes. Check!

Therefore, in 335 days the entire inventory of 11,500 tonnes of water should be processed.

Hopefully, that answer is better. No more coffee needed!

Charley Noble


07 Apr 11 - 11:07 AM (#3130540)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Since the famous CIA formula for reality is Reality is Perception...
If Canada and the Western United States shuts down its radiation monitors...THERE WILL BE NOTHING TO TALK ABOUT

no reports = no radiation.

c'est fascile.


07 Apr 11 - 11:24 AM (#3130550)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Aussi, ces't vrais.


07 Apr 11 - 11:27 AM (#3130554)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Aussi, c'est vrais. Jaysus!


07 Apr 11 - 02:12 PM (#3130698)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

http://www.ucsusa.org/publications/pulse/cartoon-April-2011.html


07 Apr 11 - 02:20 PM (#3130710)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

NHK...

Japan's nuclear agency says the quake on Thursday night disabled 2 out of the 3 outside power lines used at the Onagawa nuclear power plant in Miyagi Prefecture.

The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency says the plant has been using outside power lines to cool its nuclear fuel rods since the March 11th quake. The agency says after Thursday's quake, the plant is using only one remaining power line.

The agency says there is no change in radiation levels around the plant as of just after midnight Thursday. The agency is trying to confirm the current status at the plant.

Friday, April 08, 2011 01:30 +0900 (JST)


07 Apr 11 - 03:06 PM (#3130741)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

gnu-

We don't really need another nuclear power complex running rogue from an earthquake. Enough is enough!

Charley Noble


07 Apr 11 - 03:07 PM (#3130743)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Ahhh... enough is toooo much.


07 Apr 11 - 03:12 PM (#3130748)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Here's another excerpt from a NIRS press release from yesterday:

UPDATE, 3:30 pm, Wednesday, April 6, 2011. The New York Times has an important front-page story today on a still-unreleased U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission assessment that indicates the situation at Fukushima remains extremely serious, that some of the measures Tepco and the Japanese government have taken have caused unanticipated repercussions and new problems—in particular new stresses placed on the containments that places their ability to withstand earthquake aftershocks in doubt, and ongoing concerns about the possibility of more hydrogen explosions at the site.

The article also states, "The document also suggests that fragments or particles of nuclear fuel from spent fuel pools above the reactors were blown "up to one mile from the units," and that pieces of highly radioactive material fell between two units and had to be "bulldozed over," presumably to protect workers at the site. The ejection of nuclear material, which may have occurred during one of the earlier hydrogen explosions, may indicate more extensive damage to the extremely radioactive pools than previously disclosed."

And the article adds that the NRC believes there was a hydrogen explosion at Unit 4's fuel pool, which caused major radiation releases. NIRS notes that we still have not seen a single radiation reading—official or unofficial--from inside the evacuation zone.

(SNIP!)

Ugh!

Charley Noble


07 Apr 11 - 03:22 PM (#3130751)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

The latest from Japan Times posted in the other thread.

Power disruptions and injuries reported, but number and severity of injuries not known yet.
Trying to re-raise the Japan Times now but not will not display.

NHK also reports two of three outside power lines, used to cool nuclear fuel rods at Onagawa have been disrupted- NISA is "trying to confirm the current status at the plant."

NHK articles do not mention the problems at other reactor plants that were described in the Japan Times.

Onagawa is a few miles north of Fukushima.


07 Apr 11 - 04:10 PM (#3130789)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Please note that starting April 1 2011, the daily dose data will be available for select station across Canada and will only be updated 3 times a week; however, Health Canada will continue to monitor the data on a daily basis.

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hc-ps/ed-ud/respond/nuclea/_data/surveil-eng.php

So, shutting down does not appear to have happened.


07 Apr 11 - 05:37 PM (#3130848)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20110405ad.html

In this column in the Japan Times, author Debito Arudou takes aim at TEPCO, the Japanese government, and most of all at the attitude of the Japanese people.
The translation is not perfect but his points come through.

A few quotes:
After praising the government for accepting foreign aid , rarely acepted),

"But here endeth the praise. As Fukushima's nuclear reactors became Japan's perpetually burning tire-yard fire, they have laid bare the fundamental flaw of Japan's "nanny state": the assumption that "father knows best" and that the public are children incapable of dealing with potentially dangerous situations.
The reflexive, obsessive control of information has done our people a great disservice."
"Let's start with the Tokyo Electric Power Co. They kept us woefully uninformed (to put it mildly) aboyt the stricken reactors. Some say that leaking limited information is standard operating procedure for the nuclear industry worldwide (justified under "avoiding public panic")........
"Tragically, TEPCO kept such a tight lid on information that not only was our government kept in the dark, but so were worldwide nuclear experts."..........
"While Japan's media cartels as usual skimped on investigative journalism, overseas and online media, running on fumes, had no choice but to fill in the gaps"........

"Criticism shifted from those who caused this incident to those who wanted to do something about it. People moving to safer locations were treated as deserters. ".....public began to tune out and adopt a sense of futility and fatalism, even as radiation levels rose and contaminated the food chain."
".........Sometimes the government's advice was so unscientific that it tried the patience of an educated society. (In a land of poorly insulated housing, being told to "just stay indoors" is clearly stopgap)."

"My point is that the public has been kept in the dark for generations about the risks of nuclear power,.....)"
"....TEPCO... similarly botched things after radiation leaks at Tokai...in 1999 and... in Niigata Prefecture in 2007. Yet these Homer Simpsons remainin charge,..."

"Nor will the government be held accountable, despite abetting coverups...... Part of it is due to the lack of class-action lawsuit mechanisms in Japan's judiciary, and the fact that judges almost never rule against the government."

"This is a society, remember, that has never experienced a popular grassroots revolution in its history. The result is that less cultural value is placed on fairness and social justice, more on personal perservance and knuckling under- even if that means the environment gets poisoned and people die, either as volunteer fire department heroes........"
......
"the public cannot or will not force the state to take responsibility for its mistakes. Ultimately, this is what breeds Japan's undying fatalism."

Extracted at some length because these articles tend to disappear after a few days.


07 Apr 11 - 05:40 PM (#3130851)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

great posts



IF you have seen the movie 2012 there are many quotes that come to mind.

"When they tell you not to panic, thats exactly the time to panic."



I am deeply troubled by the fact many radiation monitoring installations in the west and virtually all of Canada are not reporting or are shut down.... WTF !


07 Apr 11 - 05:50 PM (#3130856)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Nuclear monitor data Canada

Gnu's link (I hope)


07 Apr 11 - 05:57 PM (#3130861)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Monitor from West LA
Radiation monitor Los Angeles


07 Apr 11 - 06:00 PM (#3130863)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Couldn't cut the volume on the advertisements (occasional) at that site.
The readings today are in the normal range for the location.


07 Apr 11 - 06:04 PM (#3130871)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Listen to this reactor explode! This is the video NOT shown in the US


07 Apr 11 - 06:07 PM (#3130874)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

"the public cannot or will not force the state to take responsibility for its mistakes. Ultimately, this is what breeds Japan's undying fatalism"

True. So we must from overseas. If not for the Japanese, for the Koreans, Russians, others who live nearby. mg


07 Apr 11 - 06:27 PM (#3130896)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

HYDROGEN EXPLOSION MY ASS -THIS WAS A REACTOR


07 Apr 11 - 06:46 PM (#3130910)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

Donuel,

Canada has not shut down it's monitoring stations. Read the Canuck webite.

No reactor blew up (yet). Look at the MANY pics and videos of the existing site. It's obvious... unless the pics and vidoes have been "photoshopped".

If what you say is true, provide actual proof. If not, it's getting to the point where I may ignore your posts. I think you have an amazing and insightful intellect but sommat just ain't right with some of your posts lately, unless you can provide SOME kindas backup... please?

Sorry dude but that's the way I see it.


07 Apr 11 - 07:20 PM (#3130932)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Andy Jackson

I'm with you Gnu, Donuel is a scare mongerer of the worst kind I'm afraid.


07 Apr 11 - 07:58 PM (#3130947)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Gnu, thanks for the info on Canadian monitoring stations.


07 Apr 11 - 08:04 PM (#3130954)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

MM... "I'm with you Gnu, Donuel is a scare mongerer of the worst kind I'm afraid."

Not what I said. What I said was I diagree with him and I want him to provide reasonable backup for his statements.


07 Apr 11 - 08:18 PM (#3130966)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Andy Jackson

So posting videos of an abviously non nuclear explosion and stating that it was nuclear is not scaremongering?


07 Apr 11 - 08:35 PM (#3130973)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Construction of nuclear reactors continues apace. Sixty reactors are under construction in 15 countries, mostly in Asia.
World Nuclear Association, Jan. 2011.
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf17.html

South Korea has 7 reactors under construction, and 6 more are planned, to bring the total to 34. Its reactor construction industry hopes to export as many as 80 by 2030 (estimate pre-Fukushima). It is building reactors in UAE and Jordan, and is pursuing contracts in Turkey, Malaysia, India, etc.
Reuters, March 28.
Along with Japan, they are major builders of reactors.

Japan's Hitachi says because of the Fukushima disaster, it will decrease its plans for 38 new plants by 3030, but plans to remain in the forefront of reactor sales. President Nakanishi said the company has developed safeguards that would withstand the March 11 quake and tsunami.
Kyodo News, reported in Japan Times, April 8.

Westinghouse has a contract with China for $5.3 billion to build 4 reactors, two at present under construction. In the meantime, China has new designs for advanced reactors in the works. China is building a new reactor in Pakistan and has 2 more in planning stages for that country.

A pebble bed reactor, developed in China, is under construction at Rongcheng, China, started 1 April. Cooling is independent of outside sources. President of CNEG, to the China Business News.
Reactors already approved are not affected by the suspension of new licenses.


07 Apr 11 - 08:52 PM (#3130981)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Q-

That report from Japan will be quoted for years. It may represent a tipping point in how Japanese media reactions to major events.

Donuel-

The video of Unit 3 going KAPLOOIE is indeed explosive, and devastating to the crew that were trying to stabilize it. All for naught!

Charley Noble


07 Apr 11 - 09:15 PM (#3130987)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

With regard to Miskin-

"So posting videos of an abviously non nuclear explosion and stating that it was nuclear is not scaremongering?"

(Gritting teeth) The hydrogen which ignited in an explosion in Unit 3 was a by-product of the meltdown of the fuel rods in reactor 3; the heated zirconium cladding chemically reacted with water, breaking it down into hydrogen gas and oxygen gas, and other gases were released which were radioactive such as Iodine 131 and cesium-137 and were expelled in the explosion. That process is evidently not scary enough for Miskin.

But Miskin is correct, there is not yet proof of a criticality event (nuclear explosion), just a radiation disaster.

What made the explosion in Unit 3 even more worrisome, however, is that its fuel was uniquely (we hope) laced with Plutonium. Fortunately, Plutonium is not volatile but deadly when anyone runs across some when they're scrambling around the wreckage of Unit 3 trying to stabilize the reactor and its spent fuel pool.

And it is possible that the reactor was breached in Unit 3 but we'll only learn that for sure 5 to 10 years from now.

Now, can I administrate a quiz on what Miskin learned from the Three Mile Island accident and Chernobyl? Or should we just take a vote on it?

Charley Noble


07 Apr 11 - 10:24 PM (#3131009)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

What you believe is Ok by me. Its not like its going to change the fact that 4 reactors are in meltdown and the 10,000 ft tall shineing mushroom cloud was just hydrogen vapor exploding - inside a building that had no walls or roof!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


07 Apr 11 - 11:54 PM (#3131042)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Miskin is correct that there is nothing to be concerned about in any of the observations here, as long as there is a child or a person incapable of processing exactly what has actually happened. Radiation is normal, it may be accumulative but it is far away and well within all legal safety measure. NO one has eer been harmed by a nuclear plant.







However

The 'fear mongering of the worst kind' is usually the last defense for those who value economic adventures over life forms of every kind. It seeks to silence the whistle blower and vaccine the common people who just want to feel good that everything is under control

Well my friends I have seen with my own eyes the ravages of radiation poisoning. It was caused by injesting radioactive Iodine.
At the time of my sister's dath no fewer than14 surguries had been done which had removed digestive organs and tracts. She clung to life on a drip of ATP for 14 months. She got to hold her grand daughter but did not have the strength to keep her from sliding off out of her feeble grasp into the rails of her hospital bed.
With only an esophagus she would swallow and then spasm it back. No stomach, no rectum, no intestines. no gall bladder. She spoke in gentle tones and asked about things she always wonderd were true or not. I told here the truth as I knew it.

Yes I have an understandable passion regarding radiation, but for a cowardly sniper to slander all that I have told you here in this thread alone is ingnorant and dangerous.

I warned of the financial collapse and runaway corporate greed for 6 years until it struck, opps fear mongering of the worst kind I/m afraid.

Oops, I predicted an intractable war in Iraq without end, 2 weeks after 9-11 AND THAT WE WOULD LOSE!, fear mongering again.

Oops, I said the gulf spill was much worse than reported to life in the Gulf. At least the dolphins think so since 90% more of their babies have been found dead this spawning season.

Oops, Reactor 3 which had no walls or roof due to a prior hydrogen explosion suddenly explodes 10,000 ft into the air (watch the video)
You have seen a gigantic hydrogen explosion when the Hindenburg burst into flame.

Even a polyanna idiot can see that Reactor 3 looks and sounds nothing like a hydrogen explosion. A super heated steam explosion is more plausible.

Given equal amounts of gasoline, propane and hydrogen, and explode each one, Hydrogen is the LEAST volatile explosion. Gas is the second strongest and Propane is the most powerful explosion of all.

By all means ignore the nuclear physicist who showed incontravertible proof of core meltdown, breach and ongoing cycling fission events of extreme neutron radiation. He proved it by showing you the data on Chloride becoming an isotope. etc.



No Virginia that was not a hydrogen explosion.

4 reactors have melted down and at least one of them is undergoing runaway fission excursions which releases deadly neutrons which has been seen as flashes of bright blue light coming from the reactors.

Beside the fact that Plutonium debris is found all over the Fukushima site and beyond, there is the pesky fact that the Plutonium in the the reactor 3 and its adjacent cooling pond didn't just get up and walk away.

Yes I have a sideline of satire, a profession of therapeutic hypnosis and speak as directly as I can concerning disasters, and the policies that encourage disasters to happen.

When speaking to an individual with family members at risk, I am very even toned and respectfully aware that kindness in communication is paramount. But in a thread I just tell it the way it is without varnish.

Again...

If you are protecting the psyche of a child who may wander into this thread, by all means I am a fear monger. But for adults who want to know facts and feeling regarding the 6 reactors at Fukushima and 2 at Daiichi, I swear I have told the truth as I know it and as I learn it in every case.

well except for questions I may have or the poem of the 70 Samurai and the Dr.. Seuss Parody...and even those were based on truth.


08 Apr 11 - 01:42 AM (#3131067)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

"Japan's Hitachi says because of the Fukushima disaster, it will decrease its plans for 38 new plants by 3030, but plans to remain in the forefront of reactor sales. President Nakanishi said the company has developed safeguards that would withstand the March 11 quake and tsunami.
Kyodo News, reported in Japan Times, April 8."


The above info sounds like bulls#it to me. They have redesigned an entire reactor to withstand a quake AND tsunami in less than a month? If anyone believes that, I have a bridge you might be interested in . . .


08 Apr 11 - 05:49 AM (#3131166)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

Fukushima's nuclear reactors became Japan's perpetually burning tire-yard fire, they have laid bare the fundamental flaw of Japan's "nanny state": the assumption that "father knows best" and that the public are children incapable of dealing with potentially dangerous situations.

In fact they show the exact opposite. What the phrase "nanny state" is supposed to evoke is the government meddling in things that are none of its business.

But the health of the entire nation and surrounding region ARE its business, and in this instance it was in dereliction of duty by allowing a private corporation to self-regulate and fuck things up without any public accountability.

This is another in a long string of PRIVATE ENTERPRISE catastrophes = Minamata, Bhopal, thalidomide, Eraldin, SMON, the Spanish cooking oil disaster, BSE in humans - which could have been prevented by governments being more effective nannies and just saying STOP to companies that were after a quick buck.


08 Apr 11 - 05:50 AM (#3131167)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

NHK.....

Tohoku Electric Power Company says Thursday night's strong earthquake caused water to overflow from spent fuel storage pools at one of its nuclear power plants.

The power company reported on Friday that water had spilled onto the floor at all 3 reactors at the Onagawa nuclear power plant in Miyagi Prefecture. The amount of water spilled was 3.8 liters at the most.

The utility firm also found water leaks at 5 locations in the plant, including inside buildings housing the reactors.

The company added that blowout panels--devices designed to control pressure inside the buildings--were damaged at the turbine building of the Number 3 reactor.

The newly reported problems add to the downing of 3 of 4 external power lines at the Onagawa plant. The plant is maintaining its cooling capabilities with the remaining power line.

Tohoku Electric Power Company is continuing its efforts to determine the extent of the damage caused by the latest quake. But it says no change has yet been seen in radiation levels around the plant.

Friday, April 08, 2011 11:59 +0900 (JST)

Nuclear power plants and related facilities in the coastal areas of northeastern Japan were forced to rely on emergency power after their electricity was cut off in Thursday night's quake.

Operations have been suspended at all nuclear power plants from Aomori to Ibaraki prefectures since the March 11th earthquake and tsunami. But electricity is still crucial to keep their cooling systems operating.

Japan's nuclear agency says all external power lines at Higashidori nuclear power plant in Aomori Prefecture were knocked out in Thursday's quake. The plant switched to emergency diesel power generators for some hours, but power was later restored.

The quake shut down 3 of the 4 external power lines at Onagawa nuclear power plant in Miyagi Prefecture. It is still operating on the one remaining power line.

The Onagawa plant also suffered water leaks at 8 locations, including water that spilled from spent fuel storage pools at each of its 3 reactors. A device to control pressure inside a turbine building was also damaged.

In addition, the quake disabled all external power lines at a nuclear fuel reprocessing plant in Aomori Prefecture. The cooling systems here are still running on emergency diesel power.

Friday, April 08, 2011 14:01 +0900 (JST)


08 Apr 11 - 05:53 AM (#3131171)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu

NHK.....

Japan's nuclear agency says moving highly radioactive water from the Fukushima Daiichi power plant's turbine building to a storage facility may not start for another week.

The water in the basement of the turbine building of the plant's Number 2 reactor and a concrete tunnel has been hampering work to restore the reactor's cooling systems.

The plant's operator, Tokyo Electric Power Company, has been discharging lower-level radioactive water into the sea from the facility to make room for the highly radioactive water. The work is to end on Friday.

But the government's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency says the facility must first be checked for cracks that might have been caused by the earthquake, and that this could take several days to a week.

The agency says the facility was designed to store low-level radioactive water, and that every effort must be made to make sure that highly radioactive water does not leak.

Thursday, April 07, 2011 17:11 +0900 (JST)


08 Apr 11 - 05:54 AM (#3131172)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

Well said, Jack.

However, I no longer think there are any 'free' governments in the world, and certainly not in Japan. The real government there is the Zaibatsu, and they ain't going away anytime soon, imo.


08 Apr 11 - 07:29 AM (#3131210)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Andy Jackson

Believe me I am scared, very scared. Nuclear stuff is nasty. All I originally objected to was depicting, as fact, the explosion as a "nuclear " explosion with mushroom clouds and all the trappings of a bomb, when it quite obviously wasn't. That for my money is scaremongering.
No need for more on that then!
I hope lessons will continue to be learned from this disaster. I believe the world needs nuclear power; there is at the moment no viable alternative. BUT we must learn how to handle it safely. Don't build reactors in unstable tectonic plate regions. Build them in remote regions with enforced exclusion zones and buy big fat cables to distribute the power to where it is needed. Too simplistic I now but if we think one world it becomes possible. Radiation clouds know no boundaries.
Meanwhile I will leave the debate about the long term effects of radiation and monitoring and hypothesis to brains much greater than mine, as illustrated on this forum. I will spend my time trying to do something for the survivors struggling to come to terms with their own personal tragedy.


08 Apr 11 - 07:46 AM (#3131216)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

I believe the world needs nuclear power; there is at the moment no viable alternative.

As Fukushima is about to show rather dramatically, all nuclear power does is transfer fossil fuel energy from one place and time to another, very expensively. Nuclear power stations are simply expensive and dangerous batteries.

Making cement costs an immense amount of fossil fuel energy, which has to come from coal. Add in the costs of mining, fuel processing, and structural steel, and the up-front energy input to a nuclear plant is a large fraction of the energy it will ever generate. Add in the costs of waste disposal and decommissioning, and it's unlikely any nuclear plant has every been a nett energy producer. Add in the costs of entombing a mess like Fukishima in something that will make the Pyramids look like a privy, and nuclear power becomes a catastrophic waste of fossil fuel energy the world can't afford.


08 Apr 11 - 08:19 AM (#3131231)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

Too much information coming in all at once. What a frantic scramble it must be for those in Japan trying to cope with this DISASTER (alert to Joe Offer, please strike "looming" in thread title).

"In addition, the quake disabled all external power lines at a nuclear fuel reprocessing plant in Aomori Prefecture. The cooling systems here are still running on emergency diesel power." Ugh!!!

Believe it or not nuclear fuel reprocessing plants are even more dangerous to the environment than nuclear plants; that's the main reason why after our first one in West Valley (1966-1972), New York, failed to function properly the nuclear industry refused to invest in another one. These plants collect used nuclear fuel, have a huge inventory, and then re-concentrate the spent fuel into viable fuel rods again, in the process creating huge volumes of lower level radioactive waste. One of the byproducts of reprocessing is Plutonium, which is why in 1977 President Carter banned private companies from developing such plants. President Reagan lifted the ban in 1981 but no private US company has considered this a viable investment without substantial government subsidies.

There are some 15 nuclear fuel reprocessing plants still operating around the world.

Miskin-

Thanks for sharing your fears about nuclear power accidents, along with your conviction that we need to continue to rely on it while learning lessons from the mistakes.

Charley Noble


08 Apr 11 - 08:29 AM (#3131237)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Jim Martin

Leaks summary:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12911190


08 Apr 11 - 11:32 AM (#3131336)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

Al those little dosimeter badges that measure radiation DO NOT measure Neutron radiation!


By the way it took my sister 30 years to gradually die of Radiation poisoning that accured at age 18.


08 Apr 11 - 12:03 PM (#3131366)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

those little dosimeter badges that measure radiation DO NOT measure Neutron radiation!

So what? They probably don't measure your blood cholesterol either.

It would be pretty difficult to get exposed to a lot of neutron radiation without also getting exposed proportionately to other stuff that the dosimeter does measure.


08 Apr 11 - 01:33 PM (#3131425)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

The explosion looked to be about .2 kilotons (just a guess). An explosion with accompagning fission is more like a dirty bomb or a neutron bomb. It does not have to be enormous to be dangerous and deadly.

It does not have to be a full out thermo nuclear explosion to render the area uninhabitable. THie distinction between a Hiroshima style explosion vs. a fission excursion or merely explodinsions that send nuclear fuel up into the air has been brought up before with similar misunderstandings about thermonuclear vs dirty neutron bomb-like explosions.

The people of Japan will lose many people 30 years from now which means the future victimes are mostly going to be under the age of 25.
Small children are more vulnerable and will show the effects sooner than adults. Of course the workers at the plant have assumed their days were numbere 2 weeks ago.


08 Apr 11 - 02:02 PM (#3131444)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

http://nation.foxnews.com/culture/2011/04/08/japans-elite-hiding-weapons-program-inside-nuclear-plants Fox news..

I too have wondered what they have to hide besides incompetence, shoddy work, falsified documents etc. I didn't think along these lines but there is nothing we should not think about. The way they handled this..I just can't chalk it up to being unprepared and not too bright.

I will google Zaibatsu. Are they organized crime? If not, what is the role of organized crime in the nuclear program and the running of Japan in general? mg


08 Apr 11 - 02:22 PM (#3131449)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Toshiba hopes to decommission and dismantle the four Fukushima reactors in 10 years, a somewhat shorter time than previously announced. It filed the plan with the Japanese government and TEPCO, with aid from its subsidiary, Westinghouse Electric Company.
The proposal includes removal of fuel rods in the containers, removal of spent fuel rods in the storage pools, demolish the facilities, and improve the soil condition. [Overly optimistic?]
Japan Times, April 9, 2011.

Blame seems to be heaped exclusively on TEPCO, the operator.
It should be apportioned to the designer, GE, which was responsible for the elevated spent fuel pool design, Hitachi and Toshiba, responsible for constructing this type of reactor, and the Japanese government, which seems to have approved the design and construction without adequate investigation of problems that could develop in an earthquake-tsunami prone area.
Add to this the accepting, get on with business attitude of most Japanese citizens.


08 Apr 11 - 02:33 PM (#3131454)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

In addition to the proposal by Toshiba, Hitachi and General Electric Co. are expected to file their own proposal.
The proposals will be examinined by TEPCO and METI.

Chubu Electric Power Co. is currently working on decommissioning two rectors at the Hamaoki nuclear complex with work scheduled to end by March, 2037.
[This time estimate is probably closer to fact than the time alloted in the Toshiba estimate for Fukushima.]

Japan Times, April 9, 2011.


08 Apr 11 - 03:03 PM (#3131475)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mgq

They had better be thinking about what to do about the 1000 or so radioactive bodies. I think pictures of kindergarten children left to the elements is not going to be good, and certainly traumatic to the country. THere will be massive, and needed changes after this, unless the organized crime is just too entrenched. mg


08 Apr 11 - 03:24 PM (#3131483)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999

"Modern-day influence

Today, the influence of the zaibatsu can still be seen in the form of financial groups, institutions, and larger companies whose origins reach back to the original zaibatsu, often sharing the same original family names (for example, Sumitomo Mitsui Banking Corporation). However, some argue that the "old mechanisms of financial and administrative control" that zaibatsu once enjoyed have been destroyed. Despite the absence of an actualized sweeping change to the existence of large industrial conglomerates in Japan, the zaibatsu's previous vertically integrated chain of command, ending with a single family, has now widely been displaced by the horizontal relationships of association and coordination characteristic of keiretsu (系列?). Keiretsu, meaning "series" or "subsidiary", could be interpreted as being suggestive of this difference."

mg, I do not doubt for a moment that OC is up to its eyes in reaping profits from this disaster. Much in the same way that OC is up to its eyes in Nevada's gambling industry or Quebec's construction industry.

You as right to be concerned for the common people of Japan. I like that about your posts and the fact that you never seem to forget them. It's a quality that is missing in too many people. Good on you.


08 Apr 11 - 04:12 PM (#3131506)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

The explosion looked to be about .2 kilotons (just a guess). An explosion with accompagning fission is more like a dirty bomb or a neutron bomb. It does not have to be enormous to be dangerous and deadly.

There is nothing in any of the footage to suggest the explosion was anything other than a hydrogen explosion, as the official staements have suggested. It CANNOT POSSIBLY have been a fission explosion, or the contamination spread about would have been vastly larger (and absolutely unmistakable in composition).

Fuel-air explosions (of which hydrogen explosions are one type) are among the largest non-nuclear blasts the military makes use of. That looked fairly small compared to some of what the US war machine is equipped to deal out.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/fae.htm


08 Apr 11 - 04:51 PM (#3131533)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin

And to follow that up: there are quite a few nuclear-blast calculators on the web, mostly based on Glasstone and Dolan (you can even do it in your mobile phone). Using this one:

http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/gmap/hydesim.html

I find that the 15psi overpressure distance for a .2KT blast is .09 miles. That implies total destruction of even the strongest buildings. The Fukushima reactors are not that far apart, and even the building around the reactor that exploded wasn't totally destroyed. So Donuel's guess was way off. The explosive force of a buildingful of hydrogen-oxygen mixture sounds about right to explain what happened. Less hydrogen than the Hindenburg fire, but better mixed with air, hence more explosive.


08 Apr 11 - 07:22 PM (#3131609)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg

http://www.japantoday.com/category/national/view/man-found-stranded-in-empty-town-inside-evacuation-zone-since-tsunami They just found someone in a deserted town. I suspect there will be others. mg


08 Apr 11 - 08:55 PM (#3131634)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel

I have reasonable doubt.

All but one containment building had already blown up from hydrogen buildup inside. Now how could hydrogen explode like that in the open air?

It would have had to have been confined or in a vessel under tremendous pressure. PErhaps the cooling pools still had roofs and walls and the explosion came from the cooling pool containment area from a hydrogen explosion but that would have released vast quantities of nuclear materials from the pond.
In which case it could have been hydrogen but along with it the cooling pond and its contents...a very bad thing akin to a dirty bomb.


08 Apr 11 - 10:34 PM (#3131672)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

And evidently folks here don't want to leap ahead as I did this morning and contemplate the meltdown of a nuclear reprocessing plant. Actually I don't blame you. It's most likely horrific and I'd have to work really hard to come up with appropriate terms to describe it. And maybe, we'll all get lucky and they'll re-connect the Aomori Plant to the grid. I certainly hope so.

I also agree with Donuel that the explosion we saw on video for reactor Unit 3 appeared to be more than a hydrogen explosion. But that won't be confirmed for years. Just remember what we've said.

Charley Noble


08 Apr 11 - 10:56 PM (#3131683)
Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble

The Union of Concerned Scientists have posted a new transcript of their teleconference with the media today. Here's the link: Click here for report

It's much worse that I was hoping for. In fact I'm too depressed to discuss it but consider this excerpt:

"There are signs that the explosions in the Unit 4 and perhaps also the Unit 3 spent fuel pool have caused irradiated material to leave the building. That could have been the reason for the high or the reports periodically of neutron beams. That actually could be coming from decay from fuel or fuel particles that are now no longer in the spent fuel pool and were carried away by the explosion. That was already known to cause high radiation levels."

Here's another deeply disturbing excerpt:

"They're so far beyond where emergency procedures and preplanning have done that they're basically having to jerry-rig solution paths or potential solution paths for situations that were never anticipated."

Would someone else PM Joe Offer and ask him politely to change the thread name form "looming" to simply "disaster."

Charley Noble


09 Apr 11 - 03:42 AM (#3131763)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Andy Jackson

I saw this on a related fundraising site and thought it worth posting here. I post it with an open yet continually confused mind.

The poster gives his telephone number, which I have deleted, P.M. me if you would like to follow up.

Alex Ca l have found a system and formula as resolution the radiation shall not spread wide before its leakage can be stopped.l wish this idea do bring japan away from a great problem on radiation risk,but any body can help me to send this ...massage as the following.my.name.alex.phonenumber.xxxxxxxxxxxx. thank you for your attention.that l truly found already a system and with formula how to stop nuclear radiation down away,at last to prevent further destroying because of radiation.even though its leaking could not be stopped yet,the radiation as spreading widely at present l may stop according to my talent with special way. everybody knows knows highly risks of the radiation shall kill million people and many living,l have have responsibility for helping the authority in japan to have resolution in dealing this,so if any vo of you bridge me,please convey this brilliant resolution.help me and bring my knowledge to stop this massive killing way.thank you.


09 Apr 11 - 06:41 AM (#3131817)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

NHK...

The operator of the damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant has stepped up its effort to remove highly radioactive water that is hampering restoration of reactor cooling systems.

Tokyo Electric Power Company says contaminated water in a concrete tunnel of the Number 2 reactor has risen 10 centimeters since leakage of the water into the ocean stopped on Wednesday.

The company says the gap between the surface of the waste water and the top of the tunnel was 94 centimeters as of 7 AM on Saturday. It denies any possibility that the water could overflow from the tunnel.

The source of the contaminated water has not been identified.
TEPCO plans to transfer the waste water either to a processing facility for nuclear waste or turbine condensers depending on the progress in current operations.

The company also continues discharging less-radioactive water into the ocean from the processing facility to make room for more-radioactive water.

Some 7,700 tons of less-radioactive water have been released into the sea and the release of the remaining 800 tons is expected to come to an end on Saturday.

In a separate operation to inject nitrogen gas into the containment vessel of the Number 1 reactor to prevent a possible hydrogen explosion, TEPCO plans to increase the purity of nitrogen gas from 98 percent to 99.98 percent.

The plant operator says a strong aftershock on Thursday night did not damage any facilities of the compound, but the surface temperature of the Number 1 reactor rose sharply immediately after the tremor that hit northeastern Japan minutes before midnight.

The reading stood at 223 degrees Celsius at 7 PM, but it rose nearly 40 degrees just after the quake. The temperature had fallen back to 240 degrees at 6 AM on Saturday.

TEPCO says it will continue close monitoring as what caused the sudden rise in temperature is not known.

The company also plans to fly an unmanned small helicopter equipped with an infrared camera over the plant to take pictures of facilities that it has been unable to check. It hopes the photos will help to determine how to proceed with restoration work.

Saturday, April 09, 2011 12:36 +0900 (JST)

*******************************************************************

"The company also plans to fly an unmanned small helicopter equipped with an infrared camera over the plant to take pictures of facilities that it has been unable to check."

The Japanese have that kinda technology??? (It would be a reasonable joke if it wasn't so sad.)

Hard to believe this shit innit?


09 Apr 11 - 10:20 AM (#3131905)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Oh, shit! We're really in trouble now!! The thread name got changed!!!

Thanks, Joe.

gnu-

It's all so overwhelming to think about, even when you're ten thousand miles away. What generally works for me is to focus on one small part of the disaster and try to clarify that.

I can't find any new update on the status of the Aomori nuclear reprocessing plant. Maybe that means everything is back to normal.

Charley Noble


09 Apr 11 - 10:30 AM (#3131910)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Here's a link to a pretty scary background report on the Rokkasho Reprocessing Plant located in Aomori Prefecture: click here at your own risk!

Greenpeace artists should be commended on their evidently creative graphic.

But the discussion merits review.

Charley Noble


09 Apr 11 - 02:39 PM (#3132045)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

The purpose of the Rokkasho complex (JNFL) is not only for reprocessing.

1. Uranium enrichment plant
2. Plutonium reprocessing plant
3. MOX fuel fabricarion facility with 800 ton/year capacity
4. Nuclear waste storage facility
5. High level nuclear waste temporary storage facility
6. Japan Atomic Energy Agency offices and facilities.
6. Headquarters, Japan Nuclear Fuel Limited.
7. Transportation of uranium and low level waste

Stockholders:
77 companies (not named)
10 domestic electric power companies.

JNFL founded 1980. Permission for fabrication of MOX granted 2010.


09 Apr 11 - 02:57 PM (#3132052)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

From an update yesterday:

"Japan Atomic Energy Institute also confirmed that safety, security, located in Rokkasho, Aomori Prefecture (Rokkasho) nuclear fuel reprocessing plants and uranium enrichment facilities have lost external power supply, but the emergency power supply systems are running."

It seems worthwhile following this story, given the inventory of high level nuclear waste at the site.

Charley Noble


09 Apr 11 - 03:56 PM (#3132079)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Yesterday-
-Rokkaisho reprocessing plant (Aomori) operating on emergency diesel power generator
-Tomari Nuclear Power plant (Hokkaido) oerating at 90% capacity on reactors 1 and 2. Reactor 3 ? Operated by Hokkaido Electric Power Co.
-Higashi-Doori plant (Aomori) operating on emergency diesel generator to cool the Spent Fuel Pool. Two units run by TEPCO, two units run by Tohoku Electric Power Co. More reactors planned for the site.
-Onagawa Power Plant (Miyagi), 2 of 3 reactors operating on emergency diesel generators. Cooling systems for Spent Fuel Pools temporarily stopped but now are operating. [A Tohoku plant, built by Toshiba]

Don't know reliability of this site. Nothing found for April 9.

http://www. godlike productions.com/forum1/message1436138/pg1


09 Apr 11 - 05:25 PM (#3132119)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Q-

The website has got to be legit: "godlike productions"?

On the serious side there were a whole lot of nuclear plants knocked off-line by Thursday 7.1 aftershock. And a whole lot of plant workers scrambling to re-stabilize them.

Ugh!

I'm getting even fonder of wind farms. At least when they get wiped out by an earthquake and tsunami, there's not a radiation pollution problem.

Charley Noble


09 Apr 11 - 06:22 PM (#3132150)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

I read they were still standing and operating in Japan after the tsunami and earthquake. mg


09 Apr 11 - 06:59 PM (#3132169)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Onagawa reactors, north of Fukushima, have had problems- they are typical of those on all of the reactors.
Pipes connecting reactor and spent fuel pool with water source seems to be a recurring problem.
Onagawa 1. Online 1984, shut down as result of a test in 2006. {Problem not specified. Returned online date?]

Onagawa 2. Online 1995.
Pipe leak in 2006 due to debris damage.
Difficulties with ressure control, July 2006
METI and NISA determined that performance not satisfactory.
[How and why? Corrective actions?]

Onagawa 3. Online 2002
Reactor shut down because of pipe integrity concerns, July 2006.
Reactor restarted after repairs, November 2006
Reactor shut down after fire and damage to turbines, March 2011 (Tohoku earthquake).

Backup diesel generators damaged in 2005 Miyagi earthquake.
Fire in turbine section following 2011 Tohoku quake.
Radiation levels 21microsieverts/hour and emergency declared, but returned to normal.
Water leaks reported from spent fuel pools after April 7 aftershock.
Two of three external power lines damaged by aftershock April 7, but cooling maintained with 3rd line. [Mainichi Press. Another newspaper said 3 of 4 lines knocked out- Yomiuri Press].

See Wikipedia entry on Onagawa plant for further details. I found little further information.
The three units remain in cold shutdown.


10 Apr 11 - 07:48 AM (#3132344)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

Revised estimate...

NHK...

Work to dispose of highly radioactive water at the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant is not proceeding smoothly as more time is needed for preparations.

Heavily contaminated water in turbine buildings and a concrete tunnel is hampering work to restore cooling functions in the troubled reactors. The total amount of water in question is estimated at more than 50,000 tons.

The plant's operator, Tokyo Electric Power Company, plans to transfer the highly radioactive water to a nuclear waste processing facility and turbine condensers.

The utility firm is now working to lay hoses between the turbine buildings and the facility.

Holes have already been bored in the walls of the buildings, but work to install the hoses has yet to begin.

In addition, the waste disposal facility needs to be closely checked before the procedure can begin.

Meanwhile, the level of highly radioactive water filling the concrete tunnel of the No.2 reactor had reached 92 centimeters below the ground's surface as of Sunday morning. That is a rise of 12 centimeters since the leakage of the water into the sea was stopped on Wednesday.

Tokyo Electric plans to start moving the water in the tunnel into the reactor's condenser as early as Sunday.

Sunday, April 10, 2011 07:30 +0900 (JST)


10 Apr 11 - 07:52 AM (#3132347)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

15m waves hit the nuke on March 11...

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/09_30.html


10 Apr 11 - 11:37 AM (#3132442)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Gnu-

Interesting video of the tsunami hitting the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex, evidently reaching as high as 15 meters (about 45 feet). The report doesn't mention how high the tsunami protection wall was; I'm thinking it was about 10 meters high.

Charley Noble


10 Apr 11 - 12:10 PM (#3132464)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Nope, the tsunami protection wall was more like 20 feet high, completely overwhelmed:

"By regulation, the Daiichi plant was fully prepared for a tsunami of up to 5.7 metres. At Daini, ten kilometres along the coast, the design basis was 5.2 metres."

I was trying to harvest this info from earlier postings on this thread but finally gave up and did a search from one of the references on Wikipedia for the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex.

The history and education embedded in this thread is an extraordinary record. The roaches who inherit the earth will be much amused when they become literate.

Charley Noble


10 Apr 11 - 12:32 PM (#3132481)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

Hahahahaa.


10 Apr 11 - 01:18 PM (#3132501)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Add to gnu posts- estimates of stabilization and decommissioning of Fukushima range up to 30 years. Hitachi claims it can do it in ten, but others don't think so.
As noted by gnu, getting through debris and making new connections can't be done overnight.

The Wikipedia write-ups on the Japanese reactors, esp. Fukushima, are informative and up-to-date relative to most summaries I have found. Japan Times has had a number of good articles.


10 Apr 11 - 01:59 PM (#3132511)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Interesting and disturbing article in the New York Times today.
Japan has a two-tier labor system.
Employees of major companies are well-paid, are almost guaranteed long term employment, and mostly are highly educated, many specialists. They make up only about 20 per cent of the labor used by companies such as TEPCO.
The other 80 percent or workers are hired on contract, no job security, and none of the protection and perks of the top 20 percent.

"Day Laborers Braved Radiation for a Temporary Job"

"........thousands of untrained, itinerant, temporary laborers who handle the bulk of the dangerous work at nuclear power plants here (Japan) and in other countries, lured by the higher wages offered for working with radiation. Collectively, these contractors were exposed to levels of radiation about 16 times as high as the levels faced by Tokyo Electric Power Co. employees last year, according to Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency, which regulates the industry. These workers remain vital to efforts to contain the nuclear crisis at the Fukushima nuclear plants."
"They are emblematic of Japan's two-tiered work force, with an elite class of highly paid employees at top companies and a subclass of laborers who work for less pay, have less job security and receive fewer benefits. Such labor practices have both endangered the health of these workers and undermined safety at Japan's 55 nuclear reactor, critics charge."
"Of roughly 83,000 workers at Japan's 18 commercial nuclear power plants, 88 percent were contract workers in the year that ended in March, 2010, the nuclear agency said. At the Fukushima Daiichi plant, 89 percent of the 10,303 workers during that period were contractors."
Interviews paint a bleak picture of workers battling heat cleaning off radiation from reactor drywells and spent-fuel pools using mops and rags, clearing the way for TEPCO employees and inspectors, and filling drums with contaminated waste.
Wages fluctuate. One was paid $350 for two hours work at Fukushima and others speak of wages up to $1000/day. TEPCO refuses to discuss the contract workers and how many have been exposed to radiation.

There are attempts to form unions. The company attitudes are reinforced by those of the average Japanese, where a seldom-discussed class system exists. Moreover, foreigners such as the Koreans and southeast Asians are subjected to discrimination.


10 Apr 11 - 02:03 PM (#3132515)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Byline on labor article is Hiroko Tabuchi, published April 9, 2011.

It is doubtful that the article would be accepted by major media in Japan.


10 Apr 11 - 09:23 PM (#3132754)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Q-

Thanks for focusing on another dimension of living with nuclear power in the real world.

Japan is not unique in its nuclear transient labor policy. Our nuclear plants in the States have been doing the same kind of thing for years. When they are in their re-fueling cycle they also hire 100's of temp workers to do the dirty work, cycling them in and out when they exceed their annual dosage of radiation but most likely not checking to see what those same workers have been exposed to in their previous cycles at other plants.

It's not right and some day in the future the damage will be readily assessed.

Charley Noble


11 Apr 11 - 06:44 AM (#3132912)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

First news after this the new shock that hit Fukushima prefecture earlier today (7.1. or 7.7 magnitude depending on the source) is that power to reactors 1,2 and 3 at Fukushima 1 is down. Firetrucks will be deployed later to supply water to cool the reactors.


11 Apr 11 - 06:57 AM (#3132922)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

Òther news outlets are now quoting TEPCO saying there are 'no irregularities' at Fukishima 1 following the latest quake.


11 Apr 11 - 07:47 AM (#3132953)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

It's still too early to assess the impact but I agree that the initial reports are positive stating that power was only disrupted for about an hour.

Japan certainly deserves a reprieve from further earthquakes.

My niece was planning to revisit friends in Japan this month and now she is seriously pondering what to do. I've been urging her to reschedule her flight for next year.

Charley Noble


11 Apr 11 - 01:35 PM (#3133149)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

MOX fuel in the United States-
One of the Fukushima reactors (No. 3) used MOX fuel from the Areva plant in France. Areva is an international concern, headquartered in France, with some 50,000 employees worldwide.

In the U. S. it is combined with the Shaw Group, into Shaw Areva MOX Services.
In South Carolina, at the Savannah River site, it is building a plant to blend weapons-grade plutonium with uranium to form the fuel mixed oxide, or MOX. Costs of the plant so far are $5 billion, 2000 workers are at the site.
It has been described as a 'swords into plowshares' program and is supported by the Obama administration. The U. S. has 43 tons of surplus plutonium.

So far, the government hasn't found a customer [why has the French plant successfully sold MOX not only to Japan but other Asian countries for reactors?].
The Tennessee Valley Authority might use some of the fuel in its reactors.

The plant may be stopped; Edwin Lyman of Union of Concerned Scientists calls it a "plant to nowhere." That would leave the U. S. without a way to dispose of its surplus plutonium.

Hearings are scheduled. It is possible that the site could become just a dumping ground.
Health risks, plus the possible spread of nuclear weapons to new countries, are among the drawbacks cited by legislators and regulators.

New York Times, article "New Doubts about Turning Plutonium Into a Fuel," Jo Becker and William J. Broad, April 10, 2011.

Notes-
-Areva also is a leader in wind-power installations.

MOX may become an obsolete fuel, as new designs for reactors are already being put into production.


11 Apr 11 - 01:57 PM (#3133168)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Q-

Thanks for the update on turning Plutonium into nuclear fuel in the States.

Here's some interesting quotes from the Japanese with regard to the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex in the aftermath of Monday's 7.0 aftershock:

"Hidehiko Nishiyama, a spokesman for the nuclear regulatory body (in Japan), gave assurances that there are backup vehicle-mounted power sources and extra pumps to keep injecting water into the reactors even in the case external power source is lost.

But he admitted that no preparation has been made in the event the plant, already seriously damaged due to hydrogen explosions and other factors, was engulfed in giant tsunami waves again, and that it may be difficult to think of any efficient preventive measure."

Clearly the Japanese need to continue pondering what to do next with regard to further tsunamis, even if such an event is challenging to think about.

The same could be said for power plant officials and engineers with the two nuclear plants on the California coast.

Charley Noble


11 Apr 11 - 02:28 PM (#3133194)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

I was an (uneducated) advocate of nuclear power as an engineering student in the 70s. I attended a lecture given by (I am straining my brain a bit remembering) Dr. Stanton Friedman and he went a tad too far on the safety precautions when he said that the shear cost of these plants ensured that they were designed to be safe.

When my turn in Q&A came, I referred to his safety statement and asked if he actually believed that was a good arguement. "Yes." and he talked briefly. Again, I found it silly. My follow-up was,"How much did the Ocean Ranger (an offshore oil rig) cost before it sank and killed all those Newfies?"

I was severely reprimanded after the lecture by the Dean of Graduate Studies in front of a number of my professor and peers. Not for my "rebuttal" but for my flippancy and my disrespect.

I called in to a radio talk show airing the good doctor the next day and made the same point but much more mannerly.

Too bad I really haven't learned to hold my tongue more even after many such instances. >;-)


11 Apr 11 - 02:30 PM (#3133195)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

California- two plants
Diablo Canyon, on a bluff 85 feet above sea level, 26 years old.

San Onofre, 50 feet above sea level, with a 50 foot tsunami wall, 42 years old.
They seem safe from tsunami, but aging components may cause break-down.


11 Apr 11 - 03:46 PM (#3133240)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

Lead, follow or get out of the way.

http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2011/04/11/1962797/japanese-perplexed-by-slow-quake.html


11 Apr 11 - 03:48 PM (#3133242)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

A tremor, magnitude 7.0., cut off power and halted pumping of water at Fukushima 1, 2 and 3 for about 50 minutes.

Residents of some municipalities outside the evacuation zone (20-km) in Fukushima Prefecture will be "instructed to leave" in about a month (parts of Minamisoma and other towns).
[One would assume that the people would have reached their radition limits by then].


11 Apr 11 - 03:54 PM (#3133246)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Q-

Where did you find the reference to the "50-foot" tsunami wall for the San Onofre nuclear plant? I've only found references to a 25-foot tsunami wall such as in this Los Angeles Times article:

"Operators of the concrete-domed San Onofre nuclear plant Monday were trying to reassure jittery Southern California residents that the nuclear disaster unfolding in Japan won't happen here.

The 84-acre generating station in the northern corner of San Diego County is built to withstand a magnitude 7.0 earthquake, said Gil Alexander, a spokesman for the generation station's operator, Southern California Edison. That is greater than the 6.5 shaker that scientists predicted could strike the plant before it was built 42 years ago, he said. But it's less than the 8.9 quake that hit Japan last week.

A 25-foot-high 'tsunami wall' of reinforced concete was also erected between the plant and the adjacent ocean, a height based on scientists' best estimates of the potential threat, he said. "

It would be more reassuring if there were such a wall.

Charley Noble


11 Apr 11 - 08:17 PM (#3133357)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

San Onofre- Charley, I mistakenly wrote 50 feet (height of the ground surface above sea level) instead of 25 feet. Sorry about that.


11 Apr 11 - 10:16 PM (#3133418)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Q-

Not to worry! I was the one who earlier posted that Vermont Yankee was the only boiling water Mark 1 reactor in the States and there are 23 nestled here and there. Feel better?

Charley Noble


12 Apr 11 - 01:27 AM (#3133479)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Donuel

The nature or a tsumnami wave is to deep pouring in which means a height of a wall is virtually meaningless.


12 Apr 11 - 03:38 AM (#3133512)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

Just skimming the morning papers:

Fukushima disaster has now been upgraded to a 7 on the INES scale of nuclear disasters. Chernobyl was the only previous 'incident' reaching that high. The move is criticised by some as 'excessive'.

There's a fire in a building near reactor 4

According to one source workers have been evacuated from the site after the latest aftershock.


12 Apr 11 - 07:25 AM (#3133590)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Peter-

Thanks for the update on the incident level; Level 7 is major disaster and continuing.

The fire evidently was in a small accessory building containing batteries and was put out in a very short time. No doubt the batteries were being overworked following the latest aftershock and overheated.

Charley Noble


12 Apr 11 - 08:03 AM (#3133615)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Here's a little more reportage on why the Japanese watchdog agency upgraded the status of the incident at Fukushima-1 to 7 (from Al Jazeera):

"Local news agency Kyodo said the government's Nuclear Safety Commission had estimated that at one stage the amount of radioactive material released from the reactors in northern Japan had reached 10,000 terabequerels per hour for several hours, which would classify the incident as a major accident according to the INES scale.

The International Nuclear and Radiological Event Scale (INES), published by the International Atomic Energy Agency, ranks nuclear incidents by severity from 1 to a maximum of 7.

Kyodo did not say when the big increase in radiation had happened but quoted the commission as saying the release had since fallen to under one terabecquerel per hour."

I believe the 10,000 terabequerels per hour readers happened at the end of the first week after the "hydrogen explosion" in Unit 3. Of course the readings are most likely crude estimates because the regular recording instruments were either damaged by explosions or off-line. The Union of Concerned Scientists has a discussion of the radiation releases that merits review.

Charley Noble


12 Apr 11 - 10:19 AM (#3133691)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Donuel

It was clealy a 7 ( widespread danger to life about 20 days ago and I mentioned it here.

All the lies and mitigating silences that can be commited in the begining of a catasrophe have all been done.

It is as bad as it can be, even if anoher 3 reactors melt down it will not be twice as bad.

They now "admit" to THREE Reactors melted down and containment has been lost but not isolated. FOur fuel ponds are in continueing constant exposed jeopardy of going critical in cycles.

The soonest that this situation is brought to the point of sealing it off and stopping all leakds is NEVER. They will claim that it can be cleaned up in 20 to 30 years but that is Bull SHit.

If a clean up crew consisting of 500 or more suicide volunteers work around the clock it will take a year or more for the site to be open to workers who will be within a survivable degree of radiation to continue work with our current technology of protective gear.

The fact that this accident is an ongoing and continuous source of radiological poison in a cummulative manner, this event is becoming HUNDREDS OF TIMES more serious than Chernobyl.

The contamination will continue for years. The health risks will continue to grow. How many people will die as a result is not even a meaningful question. How many generations of many lifeforms that will suffer mutations and infertility, is the question.

Immediate lethality is not the worst part of this spill. It is what is in store for the entire region FORTY YEARS from now.

Even in the USA once you will be able to look at time scales of 50 to 100 years, the Fukushima disaster will eventually kill hundreds of people in a slow an insideous way, increase infertility and childhood leukemia will rise 100%.

After over 300 atmospheric tests of nukes the childhood leukemia rate in the USA increased by 1000 %. The people who died during the cold war radiological tests of every concievable kind was far greater than the Viet Nam War. As nuclear physicists say, Fukushima is like juggling 7 balls of deadly radiation at once.

How long Fukushima continues to spew, will determine if it will be less or more harmful than all the above ground nuclear tests put together.

How long it goes on and how bad the outcome is the great unknown in this deadly equation, but I have plainly spoken of a few of the likelyhoods above. The lieklyhood that everything gets sealed up, cleaned up and trucked away this year is zero.


12 Apr 11 - 12:50 PM (#3133785)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

An article in Japan Times today, "Disaster toll still incalculable," touches on the many problems connected to compensation and re-building following the earthquake an tsunami. A few paraphrased problems:

TEPCO direct liabilities are estimated at $23 billion dollars. Their stock has lost 75% of its value. Takeover or extensive help from the government is necessary to keep the company afloat.

Many problems are associated with compensation. If one has property and wishes to rebuild, he has to deal with property washed onto his land. The owner of a house washed onto the property also will be dealing with insurers and until that claim is settled, the landholder is "on hold." Similar claims involve the cars and other property now on the landholder's property.

Farmers in the area claim that if they had been informed of where the airborne radioactive contamination was likely to spread, they could have covered and saved their crops. Many in the area raise special crops, some for export to EU and other areas, and have suffered heavily.

Recriminations cover all aspects of the disaster.
Inoue, Ground Self-Defense Force Chemical School, blames the government and TEPCO for not opening valves early on March 12 to release radiation-polluted gas so that the rising pressure in the No. 1 reactor could be released, preventing the hydrogen explosion,


12 Apr 11 - 01:12 PM (#3133799)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Oh shit, Donuel... :0(


12 Apr 11 - 01:41 PM (#3133817)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Donuel

"There is no reason to be optimistic."   Japanese Government.

After my post below I have been hearing some of the same sentiments and observations on CNN.

I would add that within 10 months the amount of radiation that Chernobyl has dispersed globally will be exceeded by FUkushima.
In ten years it will be like 10 Chernobyl explosions. In 20 years 20 Chernobyl's m and that is on the low side.

The high side could be over a factor of 10 higher if all the pools catch fire and more reactors explode. Compared to that maybe you could be optimisitc. The difference islike being a paraplegic or having all your limbs amputated. A paraplegic technically can be more optimistic.


12 Apr 11 - 01:43 PM (#3133818)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

"... blames the government..."

?


12 Apr 11 - 01:47 PM (#3133821)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

Could someone explain to me why that forsaken, incompetent company is allowed to function as the government of Japan? Who do they own? Who is being blackmailed? Bribed? Threatened? Why is it even being considered that they be allowed to run nuclear power in the future? Clean energy, perhaps.

And they don't even have compatability betweent the wiring of east and west Japan apparently. How smart is that? THere are historical reasons but this is part of the rolling blackout problems..they just can't shift energy around.

THis is not a problem limited to Japan's people, air, waters. It is international and they lie with impunity and create huge problems with countries that are historically angry with them to start with. Why does Edano et al keep encouraging them to be more forthcoming etc. What do they know that others could not step in and do better? Secrets? Somebody please spell this out. mg


12 Apr 11 - 04:29 PM (#3133931)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Stringsinger

The world is still suffering the bad effects of Chernobyl and now we have Fukushima to add to the nuclear calamity. Does anyone really think that what happened in Japan won't affect the elements in our atmosphere as did when Chernobyl blew?

What happens if Diablo Canyon or San Onofre blow in an earthquake (in earthquake country)?

How many of all the nuclear plants are in the U.S. that we can say are actually safe?

Look at the great track record American energy industry has in the Gulf Coast?
Are there any safeguards there that should make Americans feel safe?

What happened to all the supposed interest in alternative energy sources by the Obama administration or government agencies?

We can fund NASA, the military industrial complex, and three wars but we can't have a decent research and development program for alternative energy?

Priorities are screwed.


12 Apr 11 - 05:11 PM (#3133952)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

I am no Scientist, yet I know, with every inch of my Soul that this form of power should NEVER have been allowed to be used anywhere on our beautiful planet.

If this does not wake us up, then we do not deserve to live on Mother Earth any longer.

ALL nuclear power stations should be shut down, around the globe, no matter how hard that will be on us all. We do not have the right to inflict this kind of damage on a world which is shared by so many other species. We are merely ONE of them. We have let all the other species down, as well as ourselves.


12 Apr 11 - 08:32 PM (#3134062)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

I'm also convinced that this disaster will be graded much more major than Japanese authorities have already admitted. But probably less overall than Chernobyl unless something else happens.

The impact will be different, according to the Union of Concerned Scientists analysis of Chernobyl. In that disaster there was enough force in the initial explosion to send the plume of radiation high up in the air and the immediate area of the plant actually received less radiation fallout than areas further downwind. In the Fukushima-1 disaster I would expect a different distribution of fallout, greatest nearest the plant and grading to less toward the edge of the evacuation zone. Of course there is the additional "spill" into the bay which has its own impact on the fisheries, and no one has really predicted what that will be. And there's thousands of tons of heavily radiated water still festering in the pools beneath reactor units 1-4 that they have to pump somewhere so they can further stabilize the reactors and spent fuel pools.

I just was reviewing the information on Fukushima-1 posted to Wikipedia and hadn't seen this statement before:

"On April 3, two bodies were discovered in the basement turbine room after the workers likely fled there during the tsunami."

Sad.

Charley Noble


13 Apr 11 - 02:55 AM (#3134144)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

There has been absolutely no mention, whatsoever, of Fukushima on BBC Breakfast News. It's like it hasn't happened. I find that so disturbing.


13 Apr 11 - 07:57 AM (#3134273)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

There was some clarification this morning in my newspaper about "Level 7" in Japan. Evidently the Japanese nuclear regulators concluded that the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex had already exceeded the radiation level for the criteria of 7 by a factor of ten, but it had only released about 10 % (so far) of what was released in the Chernobyl level 7 disaster.

There is no higher level than 7.

That's the good news.

In addition that mandatory evacuation zone around this continuing nuclear disaster has again been expanded as additional radiation "hot spots" have been identified outside the 15 km zone; the new zone evidently has a radius of 20 km.

Charley Noble


13 Apr 11 - 09:36 AM (#3134325)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Here's what the Nuclear Information Resource Service (NIRS) has to say about Level 7:

"UPDATE, 12:30 pm, Tuesday, April 12, 2011. As predicted, the Japanese government has officially upgraded the status of the Fukushima accident to Level 7. In doing so, however, the government appears to be downplaying the actual radiation releases, with several media reports this morning quoting government officials as saying releases have been about 10% of those from Chernobyl.

However, as we reported here on March 23, the Austrian weather service, which has been monitoring radiation across the world and advising the International Atomic Energy Agency, said that releases of Cesium-137 at that time were already 20-60% those of Chernobyl and Iodine-131 releases were at 20%. Note: this updated release puts Cesium-137 releases at 50% those of Chernobyl.

Greenpeace, which issued a statement March 25 saying Fukushima was already a Level 7 accident at that time, referred both to the Austrian study and a study by French nuclear officials. We repost the Greenpeace statement, which includes links to both studies.

The world's media also appear to be missing another important story: the "evacuation" of five more villages to the northwest, that we reported yesterday, is not really an "evacuation." It is a permanent relocation. If people were being evacuated to avoid a potentially immediately threatening radiation dose, the evacuation would not take weeks or even a month; it would happen in hours. Rather, the Japanese government has acknowledged that radiation levels in those villages, although outside the established exclusion zone, are too high to allow long-term habitation. Thus, people will leave from those villages—and will not return."

It's now unclear to me if the Japan Nuclear Safety Commission is ordering a uniform 20 km exclusion zone or just expanding one sector further to the northeast to include newly confirmed "radiation hot spots."

Charley Noble


13 Apr 11 - 09:43 AM (#3134326)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Newport Boy

There's a good in-depth article in
today's Guardian

Phil


13 Apr 11 - 11:41 AM (#3134395)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Phil-

That's certainly one of the better updates that I've seen.

Here's a quote from this report about radiation conditions for the emergency workers, noting the extreme conditions in Unit 3:

"To cope, the plant's operator, Tokyo Electric, has downgraded safety baselines both for the workers and the surrounding environment.

With the approval of the Japanese government, it has increased the permissible radiation exposure level for the Fukushima workers from 50 millisieverts a year to 250. This raises the risk of cancer by about 1.25 percentage points above the population average.

Yet even working in short shifts at this increased level, the radioactivity is so high in some areas, such as the No 3 reactor, that plant managers say humans may never enter again.(emphasis added)"

Charley Noble


13 Apr 11 - 12:51 PM (#3134445)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Jack Campin

That is the scenario I find scariest.

If they can't get human operators near it, how do they maintain any sort of control? Robots and remotely controlled equipment aren't up to tasks that complicated.


13 Apr 11 - 02:25 PM (#3134512)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Some current reports from Japan Times today:
"Radiation Surges Above 4's Fuel Pool," Kanako Takahara, staff writer.
The nuclear safety agency says the rise indicates "the fuel rods have been further damaged and emitting radioactive substances."
TEPCO unsure "whether surge in radiation caused be spent fuel rods or radioactive material leaking from the reactor's pressure vessel."
A robot took a water sample to analyze the radioactive materials. Fresh water was added onto the rods today, water level unknown.

TEPCO plans to move spent fuel rods out of storage pools at reactors 1 through 4 and move them to a "safe location", but when and how not yet decided (pull by crane or build a special structure?). The "tasks are tough because the site is so radioactive and cluttered with debris from last month's hydrogen explosions.

Getting the radiosctive water out of the flooded turbine room into a storage area will take 4-5 days.

NISA said the utility was "rushing to install seven steel sheets around a seawater intake for reactor 2 and silt fences near intakes for reactors 3 and 4 to hinder spread of thousands of tons of radioactive water it dumped into the ocean."
A seawater sample 15 km away from Minamisoma showed 23 times the permissible level of iodine-131.

In spite of these problems, "Prime Minister Naoto Kan said Tuesday that the situation is "improving step by step and that the release of radioactive particles is declining."

Other articles in the paper, so possibly more information to be posted later.


13 Apr 11 - 02:34 PM (#3134519)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Japan Times reviewed some of the Greenpeace findings. NISA dismissed last month's reports as "unreliable." Greenpeace said they have been very cooperative about data, but the prime minister's office "not giving any response."


13 Apr 11 - 02:53 PM (#3134530)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Q-

TEPCO unsure "whether surge in radiation caused be spent fuel rods or radioactive material leaking from the reactor's pressure vessel."

Should we inform TEPCO that all nuclear fuel was removed from the Unit 4 reactor vessel to its spent fuel pool before the earthquake?

God, these reports seem confused. Hopefully, it's the translation:

NISA said the utility was "rushing to install seven steel sheets around a seawater intake for reactor 2 and silt fences near intakes for reactors 3 and 4 to hinder spread of thousands of tons of radioactive water it dumped into the ocean."

Are they seriously worried about contaminated water from the bay being sucked into their reactors? Or are they trying to keep more reactor coolant water from being added to the bay?

I give up for the rest of the afternoon.

Charley Noble


13 Apr 11 - 03:36 PM (#3134549)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Japan Times publishes its online paper in English, so there should be no translation problems.

Were all rods removed from No. 4 before the quake? Dunno for sure. This discrepancy has shown up before. Some reports say merely that the reactor "was not operating"

The Nuclear Safety Agency (France) said the No. 4 reactor was the main concern shortly after the quake and tsunami, but the spent fuel rods were their prime worry.

TEPCO says in all, 60,000 tons of radioactive water must be removed from the reactors. April 13, http://www.presstv.ir/detail/174632.html


13 Apr 11 - 04:44 PM (#3134598)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Newport Boy

If they can't get human operators near it, how do they maintain any sort of control? Robots and remotely controlled equipment aren't up to tasks that complicated.

Not necessarily, Jack. Our local nuclear station developed defects in the steel liner (inside the reactor). The operator developed robots which could enter through the fuel tubes and has been successfully repairing the defects for the past 15 years.

Phil


13 Apr 11 - 06:10 PM (#3134662)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Going back over reports on the No. 4 reactor and the spent fuel pool, I realized I had been seeing something that wasn't registering.

The sentence that woke me was this- CNIC* staff member Masako Sawai said, "....... one of those spent fuel-rod pools stores several times more nuclear fuel than that in a reactor core-....."
*CNIC- Citizens' Nuclear Information Center. [Based in Tokyo, "We work to create a nuclear free world". The link below is to their English language website. The quote is from Japan Times].

CNIC

The pools store not only spent fuel rods but fresh fuel rods; how many of each were in No. 4 pool, I haven't found out.


13 Apr 11 - 07:51 PM (#3134712)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

about wind farms in Japan now

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2011/04/nuclear-woes-boost-japanese-wind-but-supply-remains-limited?cmpid=WNL-Wednesday-April13-2011

What is interesting is that they are purposely not using more than 5% of wind power. Seeing as I do not trust them to do anything necessarily honestly, but of course they could have true engineering reasons to do this...I wonder why they can't bypass the grid and go directly into certain areas...why do things have to be centralized? Why not have certain facilities or towns or something that gets this directly? I know about irregular loads etc., which might be what they are trying to avoid. mg


13 Apr 11 - 09:29 PM (#3134772)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Solar power could handle much of the non-commercial energy demands of the Japanese.
Commercial demand requires much more power than can be generated by panels.

JAXA (Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency), however, aims, by 2030, to put into geostationary orbit a solar-power generator that will transmit one gigawatt of energy to Earth, equivalent to the output of a nuclear power plant. Scientific American, July, 2008, "Farming Solar Energy in Space." The article is online- http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=farming-solar-energy-in-space.
The receiving end would have to be isolated, and plans are to put it at sea.
This plan would require support from th government and industry, but it might be a substitute for nuclear power. It also requires some 30 years lead-in time.

Windpower demand for land in a crowded country seems too large to be feasible.


13 Apr 11 - 09:37 PM (#3134777)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

A lot of land has been freed up recently...and there is offshore..but they say the seashore slopes steeply. there is also of course wave power..lots of waves hitting that island. mg


13 Apr 11 - 09:57 PM (#3134782)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/rooted/2011/04/14/probability-and-responsibility-at-fukushima/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+CrikeyBlogs+(Crikey+Blogs)&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher

Some interesting points.

I suspect they have or will turn to North Korea for labor..look guys..your people are starving...we have lots of money for you in exchange for people to man or woman these hoses...mg


14 Apr 11 - 08:27 AM (#3135019)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

NHK...

Japanese nuclear scientists say if a cooling system can be put in place at the Fukushima Daiichi plant, stabilizing its nuclear fuel could take another 3 months.

The deputy head of the Atomic Energy Society of Japan, Takashi Sawada, released the projection by an informal group of 11 society members on Thursday.

He said data published by Tokyo Electric Power Company shows that parts of the fuel rods in reactors 1 and 3 have melted and settled at the bottom of the pressure vessels.

He said if the ongoing water injections continue, the current situation can be maintained.

He said Tepco's most important task is to remove all the contaminated water and rebuild a cooling water circulation system.

He said once these jobs are done, stabilizing the nuclear fuels could take 2 to 3 months, if not longer.

But he warned that the situation could deteriorate if another strong earthquake knocks out power to the plant and makes it impossible to keep the nuclear fuel cool for 2 or 3 days. That would destabilize temperatures and pressures inside the reactors, and the situation would become extremely unpredictable again.

Thursday, April 14, 2011 19:34 +0900 (JST)


14 Apr 11 - 08:32 AM (#3135023)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

mg-

Maine is already experimenting with floating wind towers off-shore. There doesn't seem to be an engineering problem with this concept and it would seem to have less of an environmental impact than building a supporting platform based on the sea floor.

I'm not sure what happens to these floating wind towers when there is a major gale or tsunami, but I guarantee there will be no radiation release.

Q-

The recently removed nuclear fuel (highly radioactive) from the Unit 4 reactor would have been stored with older spent fuel (still considered high-level nuclear waste) in the pool adjacent to the reactor head. I'm not sure where they store new fuel rods but I don't believe they have to be cooled until they have begun to be used. After a period of 5 years or so the spent fuel can be safely transferred to the common spent fuel pool or dry cask storage where it's still considered high level nuclear waste for thousands of years.

Spent nuclear fuel does lose its radioactivity fairly rapidly but there is so much radioactive content that whatever remains makes the fuel rod essentially deadly forever. This is a confusing concept, made further confusing by referring to the used nuclear fuel rods as "spent fuel." Supporters of nuclear power often point out how rapidly the radioactivity of a freshly removed fuel rod decreases, with the implication that it would be relatively harmless in a short period of time. When they do this, they are deliberately trying to mislead the public.

"Strontium's dandy,
Why it's just like candy!
The roaches will inherit the earth!

Charley Noble


14 Apr 11 - 11:15 AM (#3135116)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

I've been reviewing the status of the Vermont Yankee nuclear plant relicensing. This nuclear plant is the same vintage and design as the older reactor units at Fukushima-1 nuclear complex in Japan. Vermont Yankee's license is scheduled to expire in 2012 but the company operating the plant applied to the NRC for a 20-year extension (Politico 3/25/2011):

"Monday, the same day the Nuclear Regulatory Commission announced it would conduct a 90-day "snapshot" regulatory review of the U.S. nuclear reactor fleet, the agency finalized the relicensing of the Vermont Yankee nuclear plant — which has the same design as the stricken Japanese plant — for another 20 years."

"Vermont Yankee is actually scheduled to close next year anyway, but the NRC's action leads to questions about the comprehensive nuclear review President Barack Obama called for."

"It is stunning that the Nuclear Regulatory Commission would rubber stamp the use of this aging reactor for another two decades, and it's outrageous that it would do so just days after announcing a 90-day review in response to the crisis in Japan," said Erich Pica, president of Friends of the Earth.

"Aside from being one of the 23 U.S. nuclear plants sharing a design and containment system similar to the Fukushima Daiichi plant in Japan, Vermont Yankee has had its own series of problems including the collapse of a cooling tower and leaks of radioactive tritium."

Unlike most states Vermont has reserved the right for the final word on such license extensions and its State Senate has already voted the extension down by an overwhelming margin. The NRC claims that it's authority would pre-empt the State's on issues dealing with nuclear power but given what's been happening in Japan they may be politically check-mated.

Charley Noble


14 Apr 11 - 03:46 PM (#3135289)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

That's one of the reasons many people including myself don't trust "breeder" reactors. They're coolant is sodium and if there is any contact with water very bad things happen. The big accident I remember was in Detroit with Fermi-1 in 1966; read all about it in the book WE ALMOST LOST DETROIT.

The Japanese also had big problems with a sodium cooled reactor leak.

Charley Noble


15 Apr 11 - 07:17 AM (#3135651)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

NHK...

Japanese manufacturer Toshiba, which helped build the Fukushima Daiichi plant's now crippled nuclear reactors, says decommissioning them will take at least 10 years.

Toshiba has drafted a plan with 4 US companies in the nuclear power industry to decommission the plant, including the Number 2 and 3 reactors that it built.

The company's President Norio Sasaki said on Thursday that it has submitted the proposal to Tokyo Electric Power and the Industry Ministry. Prime Minister Naoto Kan had earlier asked the utility to come up with a plan to end the nuclear crisis.

The proposal is divided into 3 phases. The short-term plan, likely to take several months, involves cooling and stabilizing reactors and spent fuel pools, while preventing radioactive water from increasing.
Toshiba will then move toward the medium-term plan, involving the safe removal of nuclear fuel rods from the pools and pressure vessels, using special cranes to be set up near the reactor buildings. Toshiba says this work will take 5 years.

The final phase, dismantling the reactors and clearing the land, will take another 5 years. Toshiba says that radioactive substances released in the process must be removed during this phase.

Thursday, April 14, 2011 21:41 +0900 (JST)


15 Apr 11 - 09:44 AM (#3135715)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

gnu-

Even under normal circumstances the decommissioning of a nuclear plants takes 5 to ten years. For example with the Maine Yankee nuclear plant:

"The eight-year $500 million decommissioning process spanned from 1997 until 2005."

The conditions at Fukushima-1 are not, of course, normal, and there are 6 reactor units on site, four of them heavily damaged. I would predict that it will take them at least twenty years to complete their work. I would not be surprised if they declared the entire plant complex a nuclear dump, entombing what is there rather than trying to dismantle the reactors and spent fuel pools and shipping them somewhere else.

Charley Noble


15 Apr 11 - 12:55 PM (#3135812)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

NIRS has this very interesting update on the spent fuel pool at Unit-4 at the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex:

"UPDATE, 11:30 am, Thursday, April 14, 2011. The fuel pool at Unit 4 apparently has experienced an inadvertent criticality at some point in the past month. Tokyo Electric Power (TEPCO) has confirmed that some fuel rods in the pool are damaged. A 400 milliliter water sampling from the pool taken Tuesday found elevated levels (as much as 100,000 times above normal) of Iodine-131, Cesium-134 and Cesium-137. As nuclear engineer Arnie Gunderson of Fairewind Associates points out, there should be no Iodine-131 detected at all. All of the fuel from Unit 4 had been removed from the core and placed in the pool well before the March 11 accident. With a half-life of 8 days, the likely way Iodine-131 would be detected in this water would be if there had been a criticality—which given the severe damage to the pool is more than just conjecture. TEPCO, however, suggests the readings may be caused by radioactive rubble in the pool or radioactive rainwater coming into the pool.

TEPCO says it so far has pumped out 700 tons of highly radioactive water from a trench to a condenser; but with 60,000 tons of this water across three reactors, that's a proverbial drop in the bucket."

Charley Noble, off on the road for a week


15 Apr 11 - 01:12 PM (#3135826)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

The more I read, the more I'm dumbfounded that we have come to rely on this mega-dangerous form of power, purely to satisfy our desires.

Drive carefully, Charley..and have a lovely time.


15 Apr 11 - 01:59 PM (#3135854)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

If I read the report right, the president of TEPCO has just now been summoned to appear before parliament. Why this long? Who runs who there? mg


15 Apr 11 - 03:42 PM (#3135901)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

A few days ago, I posted that Hitachi said it could decommission Fukushima and estimated 10 years. Most experts, as Charley suggested, were estimating uup to 30 years.

The government has asked TEPCO to make initial payments for losses. Having lost 4/5 of its stock value, the company will have a hard time keeping afloat without massive government assistance. Under Japanese law, the operator has sole liability; designer and builders have none.


15 Apr 11 - 04:06 PM (#3135923)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Japan Times today- bad news, but expected.

Melted fuel rod fragments have sunk to the bottom of three reactors at Fukushima No. 1 (Daiichi) power plant and could broach their pressure vessels if cooling operations are seriously disrupted.
"If too many of the melted fuel fragments puddle at the bottom, they can generate enough concentrated heat to bore a hole in the pressure vessel, which would result in a massive radioactive release to the environment."
This had been speculated on for some time.
"It will take at least two or three months...until the situation of fuel rods is stabilized," said Takashi Sawada, vice chairman of Atomic Energy Society of Japan.
The news report goes on to give measurements of radioactivity in soil and groundwater, taken by Tepco.

In other news, TEPCO has been ordered to pay 50 billion yen as provisional payment to about 50,000 households forced to leave the 30 km nuclear evacuation zone.


15 Apr 11 - 05:59 PM (#3135996)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

"Under Japanese law, the operator has sole liability; designer and builders have none."

Under most legal systems this would be the case initially. The operator has a contract with the user... obvious. However, there USUALLY would be "further" liability as the operator (owner) would usually have recourse against the designers and builders as they had a contract for the design and construction which would include not fucking over the world, whether stated specifically in the contract or simply implied in the nature of due diligence. I realize that is not quite in proper legal terminology but, in engineering terminology, the designers and builders are fucked although it will take many years for the owner to fuck them. But, they will get fucked... and they should get fucked.

I only say they should get sued severely in the spirit that it may prevent such tragedies in future. It serves no immediate gain except "revenge" but it may help to alleviate such a disaster in future.

Am I off base with that?


15 Apr 11 - 07:57 PM (#3136063)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Bill D

It sounds like it takes almost as much money to decommission one as to build one... and more trouble in many ways.

And so far, NO ONE has decided where to store spent fuel safely. The US has been dithering about this for 40 years! (They thought briefly of using underground salt mines in Kansas...just 35 miles from ME! Now they pretend they'll use Yucca Mountain....someday. In the meatime, spent fuel is stored onsite...just like in Japan.)


15 Apr 11 - 09:02 PM (#3136081)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

gnu, there was an article in Japan Times about liability. I mentioned it a while back but cannot refind it.
Japanese law with regard to liability and damages seems to bear little relationship to the law we know.

As I recall, the article was very clear about the liability, the burden being that in Japanese law, once the title was transferred to the operator, TEPCO, it would bear sole responsibility for liabilities.
A General Electric statement said that this is the case.
This would leave General Electric (designer), Hitachi and Toshiba (reactor builders) free of the costs (General Electric and Hitachi have a relationship, I don't know the share relationship).

Japanese bankers are urging the government to bail out TEPCO. "No one wants to see TEPCO go bankrupt," said Ben Westmore, a Tokyo-based analysist at MF Global Securities.
One option "may be that TEPCO would issue enormous amounts of new shares and the government would then buy most of them. The government can hold them for a while until the price of TEPCO shares stabilizes and then sell them to other investors."
Thurs, April 7, Japan Times, "Bankers Urge Aid for TEPCO." (The subtitle says no new loans to TEPCO until bailout)

The Japanese law requires the utility to carry liability insurance of about 120 billion yen. The government also compensates victims if an accident is caused by a natural disaster.

Engineers are estimating decommission costs at 1 trillion yen.
An economist estimates the electricity shortfall and adverse effects from radioactivity and contamination will cut 1.7 trillion yen from GDP.
Tepco's supplying area covers 40 percent of the country's gross domestic product.


15 Apr 11 - 09:15 PM (#3136088)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

Q... I still would argue that the owner has the right to engage the designers and builders as there exists a duty under contract that must be conveyed and cannot be infringed by simple transfer as you suggest. Let's not argue the point... let's see how it plays out.

I'll by you a pint if what you say works out... even though it's wrong... >;-)

And, we might both be dead by the time it plays out. Hopefully that will be the case because I hope legal wrangling doesn't get in the way of taking care of the business at hand.


16 Apr 11 - 05:56 AM (#3136219)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

NHK...

The operator of the troubled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant says the level of highly radioactive water in a tunnel of the No. 2 reactor has been rising.

Contaminated water in the plant's facilities is hampering efforts to restore reactor cooling systems. Leakages of such water into the ocean and the ground are also raising concern.

Tokyo Electric Power Company, or TEPCO, finished transferring part of the wastewater -- about 660 tons -- from the tunnel to a condenser in a turbine building on Wednesday.

The transfer lowered the water level in the tunnel by 8 centimeters, but it began rising again, exceeding the previous level by 2.5 centimeters as of Saturday morning.

TEPCO says work to fix the leakage of highly radioactive water into the ocean earlier this month may have caused water from the reactor to accumulate in the tunnel.

The company hopes to begin transferring contaminated water to a waste-processing facility by the end of next week. It is now accelerating work to monitor and fix water leaks in the facility.

Highly radioactive water may also be leaking underground.

On Thursday, TEPCO detected higher radiation levels in underground water. The observed level was up to 38 times that of one week ago.

TEPCO began taking radiation readings 3 times per week on Saturday, instead of just once per week.

Saturday, April 16, 2011 12:13 +0900 (JST)


16 Apr 11 - 08:39 AM (#3136290)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

"Melted fuel rod fragments have sunk to the bottom of three reactors..."

SHIT!

Just because we discussed this likely possibility doesn't make its announcement any less shocking.

In the States the Federal Government picks up the insurance tab for nuclear accidents, as another subsidy to the industry. I'm not sure what the situation is in Japan.

Back to the NEFFA festival.

Charley Noble


16 Apr 11 - 10:49 AM (#3136335)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Jack Campin

TEPCO says work to fix the leakage of highly radioactive water into the ocean earlier this month may have caused water from the reactor to accumulate in the tunnel.

No shit Sherlock.

You put the plug in the bath with the tap running. What do you expect to happen?


16 Apr 11 - 01:59 PM (#3136427)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

How do they take these readings? From where? Robots? People?

Why in the name of all that is holy is this incompetent company allowed to only measure once a week or three times a week? Why is there not moment to moment monitoring? Are there no devices to do that?

I do not understand why they are allowed to only test this infrequently, why there are not independent people monitoring, why there are not sensors or whatever that send constant information, why anyone would trust anything this company says or does. They have an international crisis and a private or public company is allowed to do whatever it wants without informing the public or apparently the government or the traditional enemies of Japan who are receiving this radiation. WTF?


16 Apr 11 - 02:11 PM (#3136432)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Is this a 'politically correct' judgement by the U. S. Department of State? It doesn't quite jibe with Japanese press reports of "melted fuel rod fragments sink..." etc.
"The crisis is "dramatically different" and efforts to stabilize the reactors are "ongoing and successful," the U. S. State Department said Thursday. People outside the evavuation zone are "highly unlikely" to be exposed to harmful radiation even if there are disruptions at the plant, the advisory said."
The advisory to U. S. Embassy staff in Tokyo was lifted.
The above quote from Japan Times Online.
--------------------------------------

Some of the soil tests are inconclusive because soils contain radioactive materials from Russian, U. S. and other nuclear states that carried out atmospheric atomic tests in past decades. (Donuel will say we are already poisoned).


16 Apr 11 - 02:29 PM (#3136440)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Japanese Liability Law- see Wall Street Journal, Law Blog, March 18, 2011.
http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2011/03/18/japanese-taxpayers-likely-to-shoulder-nuclear-liability/

The lawyer, Ashby, says only TEPCO and Japanese government are on the hook.
But as you say, there could be a surprise or two before this is over.
Lets just go Dutch on the beer now, while we are still alive.
(Oops! political correctness.... May I wiggle out by saying I only meant we should drink Heineken?)


16 Apr 11 - 02:32 PM (#3136442)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

I'd have thought they'd have had the top experts from around the world over there...

In fact, WHY isn't there an International Nuclear Rescue Division, or some such thing? This stuff is deadly when it goes wrong, so surely there should be a worldwide emergency agency for these things happen....


16 Apr 11 - 02:41 PM (#3136446)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

Jack... here's another "Sherlock moment" from my post above...

"Highly radioactive water may also be leaking underground."

D'ya think? WTF?????

Q... Heineken... fine with me if you drink it. I'll have my usual.


16 Apr 11 - 02:51 PM (#3136453)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Top U. S. and French specialists are helping- see previous posts.

(OMG, a Molson drinker?)


16 Apr 11 - 02:53 PM (#3136456)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

Sigh... worse... Canuck Bud.


17 Apr 11 - 02:45 AM (#3136710)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Donuel

There never has been a sound sustainable ecoonomic savings to any nuclear plant on Earth. Not even France.

In every single case the waste nuclear fuel issue is still unsolved leaving the last ditch scenario of reprocessing what can be salvaged and storing the waste on site. Over itme it is like Shel Sivlerstein's Sarah who would not take the garbage out.

Now take into account the growing areas on Earth which can not be safely habitable due to radioactive accidents. First they are measure in Su miles then in terms of a state like Rhode Island and then Pennsylvania and then half the oceans...

Sixty years agop we deposited highly radioactive waste in steel barrels and dumped them in the ocean. They all began to leak about 10 years ago. 10s of thousands of tons worth.


17 Apr 11 - 07:26 AM (#3136773)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Jack Campin

Picture caption in today's BBC story, of Hillary Clinton with the Emperor:

Before the disaster, Japan-US ties had been strained by a dispute over military bases

Meaning, I suppose, that the US has now got Japan over a barrel and they can carry on with their gang of unaccountable rape-happy thugs occupying a quarter of Okinawa indefinitely.


17 Apr 11 - 08:40 AM (#3136801)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Well, gang, you're doing a fine job of digesting the latest updates.

I fully expect that a few more horrible surprises lie in wait as they examine the details of this evolving disaster. I would argue that it was a disaster "designed" to happen, in that TEPCO ignored the "unlikely case" of a level 9 earthquake and tsunami. I'm also still convinced that there were human errors committed in trying to manage the crippled reactors and spent fuel pools after the event, not surprising since they had not devised a script to deal with such an unlikely situation and were forced to improvise.

Well, it's back to my hard work at this Festival.

Charley Noble, anchored at NEFFA


17 Apr 11 - 12:02 PM (#3136876)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

NHK...

The operator of the damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant has issued a schedule for putting the crisis under control in 6 to 9 months.

The chairman of Tokyo Electric Power Company, Tsunehisa Katsumata, explained the plan at a news conference on Sunday.

The utility firm said a two-phase process is scheduled.
In the first stage over the next 3 months, it will build new cooling systems outside the Number 1 and 3 reactor buildings to cool down the nuclear fuel, and to ensure that radiation levels around the plant continue to decline.

The company says it will contain the radioactivity leakage from the Number 2 reactor by patching the damaged section.

In the second stage, TEPCO plans to lower the temperature of the nuclear fuel in the reactors to below 100 degrees Celsius to stabilize its condition.

The firm says the cooling will considerably lower the radiation levels in the environment around the plant.

The two-phases will be completed in 6 to 9 months.

The firm also plans to cover the reactor buildings with giant covers with filters to prevent the release of radioactive substances into the air.

It will also set up equipment to purify the contaminated water in tanks and other facilities.

At the same time, the company will increase the number of monitoring points within the government-set evacuation areas. It will use the data to neutralize the radioactive substances in soil and on buildings.

Sunday, April 17, 2011 16:35 +0900 (JST)


17 Apr 11 - 12:04 PM (#3136878)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

and...

TEPCO is scheduled to start operating the new cooling system by summer.


17 Apr 11 - 01:34 PM (#3136909)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

"....unlikely case of a level nine earthquake and tsunami...."
The Japanese government also dismissed the possibility, not just TEPCO. A number of the designated safe refuges for those fleeing a tsunami were completely inundated and thousands died in them.

An article in the Santa Fe New Mexican about the nuclear test at the Trinity Site, near Alamogordo, White Sands, New Mexico, in July, 1945, in which a 19-kiloton plutonium device called "The Gadget" was detonated.
Tresa VanWinkle, director of the Alamogordo-based Cancer Awareness, Prevalence and Early Detection Center, points to cancer in her family and in others, and to spiking cancer rates among families in the wind-whipped Tulerosa Basin north of Alamogordo.
No compensation or recognition of cancer-caused deaths has come from the Federal government.

"The Gadget" carried about the same payload as the bomb dropped on Nagasaki.
Santa Fe New Mexican, April 16, 2011: "Six Decades after Trinity Site Blast, Area Residents Living with Fallout with No Help from Government," Dennis Carroll, The New Mexican.


17 Apr 11 - 03:01 PM (#3136957)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

"No compensation or recognition of cancer-caused deaths has come from the Federal government."

The government cannot do this. It would be an admission of MANY things. I know a widow who receives a pension which is not taxable. It is a "compassionate" pension. The government absolutely denies that radiation from her husband's service in the nuclear industry caused his death... they cannot admit it because many more cases would qualify for compensation, including the general public, farmers who lost animals...


17 Apr 11 - 03:05 PM (#3136959)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Interesting quote- Prof. of Politics Kato, Waseda University, on Clinton visit: "The purpose of the visit to Japan is clearly to see whether the Kan government is really capable of handling the crisis, and I think the conclusion will be that it is not."
The Kan government may have difficulty staying in power, but so far the Japanese press, although critical, has not mounted a strong attack on the government.
France 24, AFP press, international news, 17 April, 2011; "Clinton Visits Japan, U. S. relief Effort Warms Ties."
The article also reports 20,000 US forces are engaged in helping to clear debris, and distribute aid supplie. The US is providing coolants, two water barges and fire engines at Fukushima.

Japan Times, carrying the story that reactor shutdowns are nine months away, reports the U. S. proposed a "daring plan to use a remote-controlled helicopter and cranes to pluck out the spent fuel rods."
TEPCO is "locked in a vicious cycle in which water being pumped to cool the reactors is being turned into radioactive runoff that must either be stored or dumped into the sea, while it bleeds off radioactive steam into the atmosphere to cool off the cores."


18 Apr 11 - 09:59 AM (#3137373)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Odd, last evening's post disappeared into limbo.

TEPCO is "locked in a vicious cycle in which water being pumped to cool the reactors is being turned into radioactive runoff that must either be stored or dumped into the sea, while it bleeds off radioactive steam into the atmosphere to cool off the cores."

This situation was certainly predictable but there were few good options for the Japanese once they were forced to improvise. I'm not sure our nuclear engineers would have done better if they were operating "beyond the script," what could reasonably have been anticipated given the constraints of what the nuclear industry was willing to build. I do wonder also if the corporate culture in Japan may also have played a role in how poorly their engineers dealt with the initial impact of the earthquake and tsunami.

If there is a similar earthquake and tsunami in Southern California, we may be able to test this interesting question. How exciting!!!

Charley Noble, adrift in Brookyn for much of the week


18 Apr 11 - 11:21 AM (#3137432)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Donuel

The current dreadful state of affairs was officially said to last six to 9 months.

I think it will best be measured in centuries.

Thousands of them.


18 Apr 11 - 02:36 PM (#3137577)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Problems
Japan Times reports U. S. robots found dangerous spikes in three reactor buildings, which will hamper efforts to bring Fukushima under control.
Workers are trying to repair the cooling systems. TEPCO is reducing hours for its contract workers, "the maximum allowable annual radiation dose for nuclear workers is 250 millisieverts, which is two and a half times the pre-crisis limit. This means each worker can only spend a maximum of five hours inside the building. Many have already passed the standard annual limit of 100 millisieverts and many subcontractors are reportedly refusing to adhere the to the higher radiation limit set for the crisis".

TEPCO plans to install a new air-cooling system to cool the coolant water to be stored inside the reactors' containment vessels. These are similar to air conditioners used in French nuclear power plants that remove heat from the coolant water that will circulate inside the containment vessel and keep the core cool.
Stabilization is still estimated to take up to nine months.

"Meanwhile a more urgent task...at No. 2 reactor, where radioactive water is flooding its turbine building and an adjacent underground trench." TEPCO is building storage facility and water-proofing it. Adhesive concrete may be used at No. 2 to stop leakage.
Polluted water in buildings and nearby areas totals "67,500 tons."


18 Apr 11 - 02:45 PM (#3137583)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

Speaking of measuring, in a Tepco-like move, (I think that Tepco is going to move from being a noun to a verb) some department in Alaska, I don't think Fisheries..but it sounds like a state department..has declined to measure radiation in fish because it is so unlikely that any will be found. What a stupid reason for not measuring something, if indeed that is the reason. Again, independent, unbiased investigators should measure everything, if only to calm potential purchasers, stabilize the market and provide baseline data. That is too stupid for scientists to say we are not going to measure something because we of course know what the answers will be..if indeed it is the scientists making that decision. mg


18 Apr 11 - 03:04 PM (#3137598)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Experts doubt nine month figure.
Too many uncertainties say Tadashi Yoshida, Nuclear Reactor Laboratory, Tokyo City University, and Hisashi Ninokata, Tokyo Institute of Technology.
Explanations given: "Success No Given in Tepco Road Map," Japan Times, April 19, 2011.

An inclusive[?] diagram, TEPCO's "road map," is reproduced at the head of the article. Worth a look.


18 Apr 11 - 03:21 PM (#3137608)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

These are people who could not get firehoses working. How can they manage a nuclear crisis? mg


18 Apr 11 - 03:28 PM (#3137615)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

Yeah... that cracked firehose thing was unreal to the nth.


18 Apr 11 - 03:28 PM (#3137616)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Both federal and state health officials say North Pacific fish are so unlikely to be contaaminated by radioactive material from Japan that there's no reason to test them.
Ron Klein, Alaska's food safety manager, says the FDA and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration have demonstrated that Alaskans have no cause for worry.
NY Post, UPI, etc.

Russians also say no cause for worry and discuss fish migratory patterns. UPI

(A look at Pacific Ocean currents map shows currents hitting the American coast well south of Alaska. A subsidiary current branches from there to Alaska. Automatic atmospheric and sea monitoring is done for California. Nothing above background has been noted, except for the atmospheric measurements for one day.)


18 Apr 11 - 09:11 PM (#3137845)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

It's not so much where the currents go but, perhaps, where the higher predator fish such as tuna go after feeding off the Japanese home waters.

It's relatively easy to do some sample testing, and perhaps reassure everyone.

Charley Noble


18 Apr 11 - 09:20 PM (#3137849)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Tuna is not caught in Alaskan waters.


18 Apr 11 - 09:53 PM (#3137866)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

http://totaltuna.com/

Of course they could have caught it elsewhere. mg


19 Apr 11 - 08:38 AM (#3138155)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,Jim Martin

Robots lenses steamed up!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13127728


19 Apr 11 - 09:16 AM (#3138171)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Jim-

It kind of makes sense that conditions within what's left of the reactor and turbine buildings might be very hot and humid, and that the Packbots might fog up their lenses.

mg-

What ever happened to the spent fuel from the decommissioned Trojan reactor? Is it in dry cask storage or still in a spent fuel pool?

I've also read a follow-up story this morning in my New York Times about the Vermont Yankee license extension attempt. Vermont Yankee, as mentioned above, is a boiling water reactor similar in design and age to the reactor in Unit 1 at the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex. The plant is schedule3d for decommissioning in 2012 but the NRC in March(!) approved a company plan to extend its license another 20 years. However, under an existing agreement with the company running the plant the Vermont Legislature has the final word on such an extension and the Senate voted decisively in April to not approve the extension. Now the company is suing the State, saying that it is interfering with interstate commerce and only the NRC has jurisdiction over nuclear health and safety issues. I don't expect the Governor or the State Legislature to back down and this will make an interesting case for "state's rights."

Charley Noble, still resident in Brooklyn after his morning bagel and coffee


19 Apr 11 - 12:59 PM (#3138302)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

don't know about trojan.

Here is a nice article about the IIC at Tepco.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/public-leaders-network/blog/2011/apr/18/private-sector-tepco-not-shining-beacon-public


19 Apr 11 - 01:12 PM (#3138312)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

mg-

Actually not a "nice article" but perhaps a critically accurate assessment.

Charley Noble


19 Apr 11 - 01:51 PM (#3138337)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Areva, the French reactor company, will build a facility to decontaminate the radioactive water at the Fukushima Daiichi plant.
Chemical agents will remove radioactive iodine and caesium from contaminated water.
The decontaminated water can then be used to cool the reactors. TEPCO and Areva hope to have the operations start in June.
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/19_33.html


19 Apr 11 - 02:04 PM (#3138342)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Other news-
An SDF (Japanese Ground Self-Defense Force) member, assigned to work near the Fukushima Daiichi plant, has been dismissed after be fled in panic.
The commander of the unit pledged to tighten discipline to prevent a recurrence. [!]


19 Apr 11 - 03:15 PM (#3138375)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

More about the IIC at Tepco. I keep wanting to call them Petco but do not want to insult a probably fine company (Petco). I have the utmost contempt for almost everything I have seen and read about Tepco and their utter inability to do the most obvious things.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/early-disorder-added-to-japans-nuclear-crisis/2011/04/10/AFHuRw5D_story_1.html

Of course I want them to bear any consequences that will not harm the Japanese public. I want them stripped of excessive pay, bribes, retirement beyond what a public school teacher would get. They are acting as a national government making decisions that affect oceans and air and food of other countries so we can't say well let Japan sort it out. Their feet have to be held to the fire and I want everything illegal they have ever done to be investigated and prison sentences or huge community service where necessary. Many if not most should resign whenever it is to the benefit of the Japanese people for them to do so..I would assume it is now but I do not know. It probably was the day of the disaster. mg


19 Apr 11 - 04:31 PM (#3138429)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

Lots of news items on this... a partial snippet...

The Associated Press

Date: Tuesday Apr. 19, 2011 6:25 AM ET

NEW DELHI — A mob opposing a government plan to build a nuclear plant in the western Indian state of Maharashtra ransacked a hospital and set buses on fire Tuesday during a protest strike.

Residents of Jaitapur have been protesting the proposed plant since the government's plans became public four years ago. The opposition has grown since Japan's nuclear crisis, with critics noting that Jaitapur is in a seismic zone.

The general strike was called after police fired to disperse protesters who attacked a police station Monday, killing one person.

The town's streets were mostly deserted as the strike took effect. But by midday, groups of people converged on the street, shouting slogans against the government. The mob later ransacked a government-run hospital and set at least three public transport buses on fire, police said.

Construction is to start this year on the first of six units at the proposed $10 billion plant, billed as the biggest in the world. The project by the French nuclear energy company Areva will generate 9,900 megawatts of power when completed. The first unit is expected to start producing power in 2018.


19 Apr 11 - 04:31 PM (#3138430)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

mg-

Interesting update on the concrete trucks that eventually proved so useful for directing cooling water on the crippled reactors.

Charley Noble


19 Apr 11 - 05:01 PM (#3138447)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

New Asian reactors.
"Asia nuclear reactors face deadly tsunami risk," Associated Press (in Japan Times, April 20).
One of the world's biggest nuclear plants is being built on China's SE coast, close by Hong Kong. Three other facilities nearby are running or under construction.
They are close to subduction faults (where tectonic plates meet), hence major quakes and tsunami are likely. People in the area were swept out to sea by a tsunami in 1765.
Not far off in one on Taiwan's tip (40,000 killed in Taiwan in 1782.

Coastal locations seem to be favored for the 32 plants in operation or under construction in Asia.

Data have not been shared or evaluated by nuclear and geological scientists, or with the International Atomic Energy Agency (UN).
A scientist at the earth Observatory in Singapore says it is only a matter of time before the Manila Trench, and regional subduction faults, 'snap'.


19 Apr 11 - 07:44 PM (#3138532)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

Indeed, it appears that building nukes where it is cheap to build them is not cheap when things go wrong.

Re the crete pumper trucks... very odd they were not on site immediately. This "technology" is not new. Gee whiz... we got em here in the "backwoods".


19 Apr 11 - 07:53 PM (#3138535)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

gnu-

Yes, even if the main roads were damaged you would think that getting the concrete trucks to the site would have been someone's priority.

Q-

And I certainly share concern about siting nuclear plants on the coast in earthquake zones and where there are tsunamis.

Charley Noble


19 Apr 11 - 07:58 PM (#3138537)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Jack Campin

Meanwhile the funds to build the next phase of containment at Chernobyl are not forthcoming:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13124777

Fukushima is a lot bigger and will need an even more expensive tomb.


19 Apr 11 - 08:19 PM (#3138550)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

What? Are you shittin me? Chernobyl is still not concluded? And there are not funds to "conclude" it? That is sickening!


19 Apr 11 - 08:57 PM (#3138577)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

I see they have approved a reactor complex just south of Mumbai, and people near the site are demonstrating. BBC News today.


19 Apr 11 - 09:08 PM (#3138582)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

gnu-

Yes, Chernobyl is still a continuing process and most likely will be for ten thousand years or so. The original concrete "shed" they encased it in began to fall apart as soon as it was completed. Soon birds were flying in and out through the cracks. Now they've designed a bigger and hopefully better one on rails so that it can slide over the old structure. Maybe someone can provide a link to this somewhat bizarre design.

Charley Noble, resident in Brooklyn but moving back north tomorrow.


19 Apr 11 - 09:13 PM (#3138588)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Jack Campin

This proposed structure they can't afford won't "conclude" Chernobyl.

The new structure will be the largest of its kind in the world - an arch more than 100m (328ft) high, 250m (820ft) wide and 160m (524ft) long.
It will be assembled away from the Chernobyl site and then slid into place over the damaged reactor, before the ends are blocked up.


BUT!!!...

It is expected to give Ukraine 100 years to dispose of the nuclear waste.

...it's another temporary fix and they'll need to build something even bigger by then.


19 Apr 11 - 10:31 PM (#3138628)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

The new cover for Chernobyl is estimated at $1.4 billion eoros. So far, pledges fall short.

Scientific American has an article with diagram, "Nuclear Cover Up: World's Largest Movable Structure to Seal the Wrecked Chernobyl Reactor," Charles Q. Choi, March 17, 2011.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=worlds-largest-movable-structure-seal-chernobyl-reactor

The one for the Fukushimi Daiichi complex may dwarf that.


20 Apr 11 - 06:14 AM (#3138826)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Jack Campin

SciAm measures the thing in terms of the Statue of Liberty. I've never seen that close up, but their figures suggest it could cover St Paul's Cathedral or two of the Sydney Opera House with plenty of headroom.


20 Apr 11 - 07:56 AM (#3138883)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Yes, what's being planned for Chernobyl is an amazingly huge structure. Some of us in the anti-nuclear power movement suspected that the Egyptian pyramids were also designed as containment structures...I wonder if we were correct?

Charley Noble, heading north to Maine on I-95


20 Apr 11 - 01:54 PM (#3139111)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Charley, maybe that is the real significance of the pyramid on the back of the U. S. dollar bill and on the Great Seal.

(Sorry, let's not digress into that).

Japan Times April 20-
1. Nuke workers at risk of overwork death. Statement by a doctor who recently examined them.
2. Kan (prime minister) to make 20-km no-entry zone binding.
3. Asia nuclear reactors face deadly tsunami risk. This article includes a photo of the skeleton of the large complex being built "on the doorstep of Hong Kong's bustling metropolis."
Disturbing articles.

1. Workers have been exposed to multiple stresses-
Some barely survived the quake and tsunami, survived the hydrogen explosions, some lost friends, family and co-workers.
Many are complaining that they can't sleep, and fear the dangers of radiation, dealing with debris, and overwork.
Working conditions are bad, in hot protective clothing on 4-day-on and 2-day-off shifts, with no shower during the working shift.


20 Apr 11 - 01:59 PM (#3139113)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

Q... the poor bastards. Gotta be be hell for them.

Charley... yer gonna LOVE this...

NHK...

A US power company says it will abandon plans to build nuclear reactors in Texas, amid the crisis at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant in Japan.

NRG Energy, which operates the South Texas Project nuclear station, planned to build the 2 reactors with Japan's Toshiba Corporation.

The company said on Tuesday that it will write off its investment in the project, citing extraordinary challenges facing US nuclear development due to present circumstances.

The firm also said justifying to its shareholders any further financial participation in the project would be impossible.

The firm is the first in the US to decide to withdraw from nuclear expansion since the start of the Fukushima crisis.

NRG Energy will record a pretax charge of 481 million dollars in the first quarter of this year for impairment of net assets.

Wednesday, April 20, 2011 16:35 +0900 (JST)


20 Apr 11 - 02:04 PM (#3139115)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

Charley... MAYBE this one too... it does have a downside...

NHK...

The Italian government has frozen a plan to build new nuclear power plants in the country.

On Tuesday, the administration of Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi submitted a bill to the Senate that indefinitely shelves the construction of new plants.

The bill says the plan was frozen in order to obtain further scientific proof about the safety of nuclear plants.

After the 1986 Chernobyl accident, Italy shut down all its nuclear power stations and abandoned nuclear power generation.

But the Berlusconi administration had come up with a plan to build new plants as a way to resolve the country's energy shortages.

Following the accident at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant due to the March 11th earthquake and tsunami, Italy announced a one-year moratorium on site selection and plant construction.

The latest move is apparently in response to rising public opposition to nuclear power generation.

A referendum had been scheduled for June on whether to resume nuclear power generation in Italy.

But the Italian media say the referendum is not likely to be held in view of the latest decision.

Wednesday, April 20, 2011 10:27 +0900 (JST)


20 Apr 11 - 02:56 PM (#3139138)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Yes, I think it's way too easy to forget what those poor men are going through for all of us. They are true heroes, absolutely and wholly, true heroes.


20 Apr 11 - 03:49 PM (#3139186)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

They need relief and those idiots who put the reactor together and said no tsunami threat should be the ones manning and womaning the fire hoses, if they are still using them. Otherwise they should be arranging for hot meals, showers etc. for the people. mg


20 Apr 11 - 06:26 PM (#3139296)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Contract labor in Japan.
In previous posts, it was noted that there are two classes of employees, those hired to relatively permanent positions (about 20%)-trained technical or professional employees, and the majority, about 80%, of workers hired under time-limit contract.

"..........The employer is free to hire somebody by a fixed term contract so long as its term does not exceed one year. The employer is also free, at the end of the term, to renew the contract or not. The contract expires by itself and the employer does not have to terminate or oust the employee. The Labor Standards Law does not address such insecurity of employees under a fixed term contract." [Courts have modified this slightly through decisions]

A laborer under such a contract has no expectation of re-hire. This tends to make these laborers extremely docile in order to get on the 'good side' of the employer so that the contract will be renewed for another term.

The contracts (more than 10 employees) are written, the laborer knows the conditions of his employment. There may be a union, setting collective bargaining rights.
Some thirteen typical contracts are enumerated under the Civil Code.

[Contracts are much less inclusive of the types of protection that labor has in North American and most European countries].

From: "Similarities and Differences between Labor Contracts and Civil and Commercial Contracts: Japan Report."
Hiroya Nakakubo


21 Apr 11 - 08:01 AM (#3139606)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST

Safely back in Maine!

I think I'll just go to bed early.

Charley Noble


21 Apr 11 - 08:17 AM (#3139616)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

I must have been really tired last night. Not only did I neglect to post the above message until this morning but I lost my cookie in the process.

Charley Noble, back in Maine


21 Apr 11 - 11:21 AM (#3139703)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Here's an update of what is happening at the sister Fukushima-2 nuclear complex:

"TOKYO, Apr 21 (bdnews24.com/Reuters) - Japan's Fukushima Daini nuclear plant, the companion of the crippled Daiichi plant 10 kilometers away that is still leaking radiation, has cleared a key milestone toward stabilizing, regulators said on Thursday, although the outlook for a restart remains uncertain.

The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency said on Thursday it reduced the evacuation zone around the four-reactor, 4,400 megawatt Daini plant after engineers had repaired the cooling systems and maintained the plant in a "cold shutdown" for several weeks.

The magnitude-9.0 earthquake and 15-meter tsunami that struck northeast Japan on March 11 automatically shut the plant, along with the Daiichi facility, and the reactors' cooling systems briefly lost power, leading the government to impose a 10 km evacuation zone the following day.

Thursday's reduction of that zone to 8 km from 10 km was purely symbolic, however, as it remains entirely within the 20 km evacuation zone still in force around the crisis-hit Daiichi plant, where engineers continue struggling to restore cooling systems and staunch radiation leaks.

The government said on Thursday that the 20-km ring around the 4,696 megawatt Daiichi plant would become a no-go zone as of midnight, although engineers would still be able to operate within the area.

A reopening of the Daini plant would require the operator, Tokyo Electric Power Co, to get approval from regional governments and residents.

An agency spokesman said further repair work was needed at the Daini plant but it had stabilized and partially met additional antiquake safety steps the government ordered on March 30.

The volume of radioactive substances inside the plant's four reactors has fallen to less than one-100th the level soon after they were shut and heat from radioactive decay in fuels is under control, substantially diminishing the chances of a serious accident, the agency said in a statement. "

So this nuclear plant complex appears to be stabilized but there is uncertainly when it can be safely brought back on line. It's well within the mandatory evacuation zone.

Charley Noble


21 Apr 11 - 01:14 PM (#3139762)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2011/0421/Japan-officially-declares-no-go-zone-around-Fukushima

On Thursday, Mr. Kan was harangued during a visit to an evacuation center in Fukushima prefecture."Are you leaving?" one man shouted as Kan and his aides left the building. Kan turned to apologize, but was criticized again by a woman, who said: "You should bring cabinet ministers here and let them try living here. How do you think we feel?"

A clearly chastened Kan conceded he had underestimated the depth of feeling among nuclear evacuees. "I need to put myself in their shoes and think more about their needs," he said.

---

Now, can someone explain to me in simple words I can understand why they do not move the people out of the evacuation centers, which if they are children around need to be used again as schools without old people living in the gyms...

If they are past retirement age, they can live anywhere...another city in Japan, another country for a while. Do they plant o leave them there until they rebuild? Move them to a better place. Make arrangements with nursing homes in other countries. It is harder if people have jobs there still and children in schools and farms..but weed out the people who do not and move them..which should have been done after 3 days. I can not fathom leaving old people on a gym floor with no privacy and probably poor sanitation faciliteis for over a month when most of the country a few miles away is not destroyed. I know space is at a premium but surely temporary structures could be put up elsewhere in countryside. I am not talking 4 star hotels but something. It is insane. mg


21 Apr 11 - 02:36 PM (#3139804)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Japan Times, April 23.
No-go zone tresspassers face fines, arrest.
The 20-km evacuation area was declared a no-go zone, violators would be subject to fines or detention. [BBC reported some 60 people were still living within the zone and evacuated, while others had been entering to retrieve personal effects and pets. Pets are left as strays.   Fines are as much as 100,000 yen (ca. $1100) and detention up to 30 days.
One person per household will be allowed in the 3km-20km area by bus for a period of 2 hours to collect personal effects, and would be screened for radioactivity.
When and whether some residents would be allowed to return at a later time is open to question.
Under the best-case scenario, Tepco says cold shhutdown will take at least 6 months.


21 Apr 11 - 03:01 PM (#3139820)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

When they talk about rebuilding are they talking about in the nuclear zone? Or how far out? WOuldn't they be better off building temporary housing facilities (we are still using some of our temp buildings from WWI) farther out, moving people there, and waiting to see how this shuttering of the reactors plays out? DO THEY NOT HAVE BUSES THERE TO MOVE PEOPLE? Do I have to send some of our Green Tortoises? mg


21 Apr 11 - 03:48 PM (#3139851)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

mg... there have been many reports on the efforts for temporary and permanent housing being built in Japan and abroad. But, housing thousands of people immediatey is just not logistically possible. I can only think that Kan's remarks were the best he could do to try to show some compassion...I am sure if he could do more, he would.

Probably more than Bush did after Katrina. The Canadian Navy was the first major relief force on site and offloaded 3M MREs. They were ordered to take them back on board ship because some contained Canuck beef which had been banned due to mad cow disease (traced to a US farm in the end). The first emerg rescue teams on site were from BC, Canada. And you say the Japanese should be better prepared and doing more?

This ain't a pissin contest but gee whiz... Kan is not evil, is he? Don't you think that if he could wave his majic wand he would?


21 Apr 11 - 04:08 PM (#3139858)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

Each time when it occurs I find that attitude that calls the Japanese 'folls' or 'incompetent', usually followed by a 'we should send in our...' quite offensive.

It seems to underestimate the scale of the problem the Japanese are facing at the moment. I doubt many countries would do better when faced with a disaster of the same magnitude.

It would be good to bear that in mind and cool it a bit.


21 Apr 11 - 04:33 PM (#3139869)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Prime minister Kan is in a difficult position. He must rebuild NE Japan after a natural and nuclear disaster, see that diminished electric power is apportioned properly to industry and individuals, deal with one of the worst fiscal deficits among industrialized countries, and keep the people calm and focussed.
All in all, he is doing the job he was elected to do, under difficult and unforseen conditions.

The Gulf oil disaster is still far from corrected; many businesses nd individuals who lost their livelihoods and businesses are still without compensation, and health problems and environmental damage are widespread.
Katrina problems continue, as corrective measures are inadequate.

The United States is a poor example to use in comparison.


21 Apr 11 - 04:37 PM (#3139871)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

"majic" is the japanese spelling.

Q... correct, as usual. But I was trying to make the point that blaming the people in charge is pointless and fruitless unless they are grossly negligent or cause actual harm for no apparent reason.


21 Apr 11 - 10:45 PM (#3140077)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

You can move and house thousands of people given weeks to figure it out. You do not need to move everybody. Some might have relatives if given transportation. Some might prefer to stay put. There are all sorts of countries with space and talented people to care for the elderly if it is necessary. There are boats that have beds. There are people who would take in strangers. There are churches that could find places for 10 or 20 elders.

Kan personally does not have to move old people around. He should have capable people in his government who could be given that task. Nursing homes all over Japan should be asked to fill any empty beds with people who want to move. I do not know if there are empty beds.

I know that the Philippines and Thailand have tried to get employment for their nurses in Japan but robots were used instead for some purposes. I would think both countries could take in people with staff from Japan to ensure continuity of diet, surroundings etc.

The Japanese themselves are speaking up. They do not understand this delay. I do not understand this delay. I think this should be a much higher priority than rebuilding anything right now, other than better emergency shelters. It should not take long. One nursing home chartered a bus, at the same time people were saying the roads were all destroyed, and got some out and to a better facility. It can be done. most of the country is not destroyed. Housing is tight but where there is a will there is a way. Oh..I do think there is gross negligance on many levels. If I thought everyone was OK and warm and well fed and clean enough then why would I care what anyone did? They can't even feed and house the workers in the plants. mg


22 Apr 11 - 08:20 AM (#3140264)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Jack Campin

If they are past retirement age, they can live anywhere...another city in Japan, another country for a while.

People tend not to move around much in Japan. And in most of the world, old people in particular don't want to move anywhere, because the further they go the less they will have in common with the people around them and the less they will understand about how to get their needs met. They are being quite logical in wanting to stay as near as possible to their original homes.

The "let's move a bunch of ignorant old fools from this alien culture to somewhere that suits us" mentality is the kind of crap you expect from Zionists. Cut it out.


22 Apr 11 - 08:57 AM (#3140279)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

mg-

The Japanese will have to work out the problem of what to do with the displaced people largely on their own, for better or worse.

Today they announced that they intend to build 100,000 temporary housing units. Clearly there are some people thinking through this part of the disaster. The assumption that "we" could do better, is not something I find supported from our recent history, i.e., BP oil spills and Karina hurricanes.

However, I do share your anger at the bean-counters who run TEPCO (and I keep trying to spell it "TEMPCO"), the engineers who built a nuclear complex that failed to survive a natural event, and the engineers who blundered in trying to stabilize the plant after the designed back-up systems failed.

This is a stressful but educational thread and I urge everyone to take a deep breath before posting.

Charley Noble


22 Apr 11 - 11:05 AM (#3140361)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,999

I don`t know what Zionists have to do with any of this. I guess people take their shots when they can.


22 Apr 11 - 11:57 AM (#3140380)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

Of course keep them as close as possible to their original homes. For various reasons, it may not be possible for a short period of time. They are very distressed at their living situations. I am saying move them to better facilities, however humble, for the meantime. And many are probably past the age they can start up housekeeping again it seems and twelve million new houses might not be the answer for many of them.


22 Apr 11 - 12:13 PM (#3140388)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

Furthermore, I have certainly never said US could do it better. I have said or implied that the Somali pirates could do it better and the Viet Cong could do it better, and I am not being disrespectful to either. I think the only thing that has kept this fiasco from being worse is people being very very critical of what they see and keeping on it from afar. I hope they do they same for me when my tsunami comes. mg


22 Apr 11 - 01:03 PM (#3140425)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

mg-

I do wish you were a Mudcat member so I might send you a PM now and again. I sent one earlier today to Jack.

Meanwhile back at the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex the plant officials are confirming that they have "some" melted nuclear fuel in all three reactors and most likely in the Unit 4 spent fuel pool as well.

Charley Noble


22 Apr 11 - 01:18 PM (#3140435)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

NHK...

The Japanese government has announced the official expansion of the evacuation zone around the troubled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant to selected areas beyond the existing 20-kilometer radius. Residents of the new areas are being asked to evacuate by the end of May.

Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano said on Friday that the government made the designation since residents there could be exposed to cumulative radiation levels of 20 millisieverts or more per year if they stay.

The 5 new municipalities are located to the northwest of the plant and are more than 20 kilometers from it.

Edano said that due to the possible impact on residents' heath, the government is now urging them to evacuate within about a month.

Friday's announcement followed the establishment at midnight Thursday of a no-entry zone within a 20-kilometer radius of the Fukushima Daiichi plant.

Edano also designated parts of areas within 20 to 30 kilometers of the plant as areas in which residents should remain indoors or be prepared to evacuate at any time in case of an emergency.

With this designation, the government lifted an earlier instruction to stay indoors for people in the 20- to 30-kilometer zone.

Friday, April 22, 2011 12:29 +0900 (JST)

Japanese lawmakers from both the ruling and opposition camps will soon launch a study group to promote the use of alternative energy.

The move comes amid the continuing emergency at the damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

The group includes former agriculture minister Masahiko Yamada of the main ruling Democratic Party. From the opposition camp, former secretary general of the Liberal Democratic Party Koichi Kato and the Social Democratic Party's policy chief Tomoko Abe will take part, among others.

The group is aiming to review Japan's energy policy that has been focused on the promotion of nuclear power, and shift it toward tapping natural resources such as solar and hydro energy.
The lawmakers also plan to assess nuclear power plants across Japan to find out what damage could be done to them from earthquakes and tsunami.

The group is scheduled to hold its first meeting next week.

Friday, April 22, 2011 09:32 +0900 (JST)


22 Apr 11 - 02:24 PM (#3140479)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

NHK...

The operator of the troubled Fukushima nuclear power plant says it has detected higher levels of radioactive material in sea water samples near the water intake of one of the reactors.

The Nuclear Safety and Industry Agency says, however, there are no traces of highly radioactive water leaking into the sea from the plant.

The Tokyo Electric Power Company says it detected 160 becquerels of radioactive iodine-131 per cubic centimeter in samples of sea water collected near the water intake for the Number 2 reactor on Wednesday morning. The figure is 4,000 times the national limit and higher than the level detected on Tuesday.

It's the same site where water contaminated with highly radioactive material was found to have been leaking into the sea on April 2nd. The leakage was fixed 4 days later.

TEPCO says it also detected radioactive cesium-134 at 2,300 times the limit and cesium-137 at 1,600 times the limit on Wednesday morning. These levels are also higher than those detected on Tuesday.

The Nuclear Safe and Industry Agency explains that sea water containing highly dense radioactive material is piling up due to a special fence set up in the area to keep the leakage of the contaminated water from the Number 2 reactor water intake. It says it sees no new leakage of highly radioactive water.

TEPCO says the levels of radioactive material are on the decline at the 4 monitoring points off the coast of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

The highest level in the latest checkup for cesium-134 is 5.3 times the national limit at a point about 10 kilometers south of the plant.

Friday, April 22, 2011 02:09 +0900 (JST)


22 Apr 11 - 02:33 PM (#3140486)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

"...Engineers who built..."- these were Hitachi and Toshiba engineers, not Tepco. They built Fukushima and and turned it over to Tepco, the operator. The design was American. This does not seem to be fully understood.

It will take some time to care for the 120,000 displaced (figures vary somewhat, but this one is being carried by the BBC).

The Japanese Cabinet has adopted a 4 trillion yen draft extra budget to fund initial reconstruction work for the devasted areas.
Temporary housing, repair to roads and ports, restoration of farmland, and clearance of rubble are some of the tasks.

Insurance-
Governments run the world's 443 nuclear power plants without or with little insurance coverage because it is too expensive. Tepco, for example, had no disaster insurance, leaving compensation up to the taxpayer, but this is the rule throughout the world.
In the U. S. a meltdown at the Indian Point plant could cost $416 billion, but that would not take into account the impact on New York City.
Japan Times, Saturday, April 23.


22 Apr 11 - 05:57 PM (#3140642)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Q-

My statement was indeed greatly over simplified. Here's a more complete statement from Wikipedia:

"The reactors for Units 1, 2, and 6 were supplied by General Electric, those for Units 3 and 5 by Toshiba, and Unit 4 by Hitachi. All six reactors were designed by General Electric Architectural design for General Electric's units was done by Ebasco. All construction was done by Kajima. Since September 2010, Unit 3 has been fueled by a small fraction (6%) of mixed-oxide (MOX) fuel, rather than the low enriched uranium (LEU) used in the other reactors. Units 1–5 were built with Mark I type (light bulb torus) containment structures. The Mark I containment structure was slightly increased in volume by Japanese engineers. Unit 6 has a Mark II type (over/under) containment structure."

The Union of Concerned Scientists now offers a Power Point presentation of the Fukushima disaster for download but it doesn't work on my MAC platform. Can anyone else access it?

Charley Noble


22 Apr 11 - 06:10 PM (#3140652)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Charley, I get hash with my Dell and Microsoft. My problem is that I don't have Power Point loaded. Google gives links for loading, and there are versions for Mac.


22 Apr 11 - 11:28 PM (#3140812)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

There is more to this than meets the eye. There is some reason they could not find the means to even properly clothe and feed the nuclear workers.   

http://www.truth-out.org/meet-nuclear-gypsies/1302843600


22 Apr 11 - 11:34 PM (#3140818)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

About the caste system in nuclear industry. Translated from French.

Are the people who were farmers considered to be in a lower caste?

http://www.marianne2.fr/Japon-les-intouchables-de-Fukushima_a205023.html


22 Apr 11 - 11:50 PM (#3140825)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-23/fukushima-engineer-says-he-covered-up-flaw-at-shut-reactor.html

new york times..now we have reported the thugs kicking down doors.

And you want me to take a deep breath? We all should. There is something beyond incompetent here and it is going to be uncovered. Something rotten in Denmark. mg


23 Apr 11 - 07:42 AM (#3140969)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

NHK...

Tokyo Electric Power Company has decided to be more cautious about the volume of cooling water injected into the spent fuel pool of one of its reactors.
This is due to fear that the reactor building might be further damaged by the weight of the water itself.

The company has been injecting water daily into the spent fuel pools of the reactors to prevent fuel rods from being exposed and further damaged.

At the Number 4 reactor's pool, the water temperature was about 91 degrees Celsius on Friday, more than 50 degrees higher than the normal level, and TEPCO was forced to inject 200 tons of water. Substantial amounts of water will have to be injected daily.

Citing damage to the walls of the building supporting the pool during last month's hydrogen explosion, the power company says excessive water injection could further weaken the structure of the building.

From Saturday, the utility started assessing more carefully the appropriate amount of water to be poured into the pool, using a device to monitor temperature and the level of cooling water in the pool.

1,535 spent fuel rods are stored in the pool of the Number 4 reactor's building, the largest amount at the site.

Saturday, April 23, 2011 12:23 +0900 (JST)

The Japanese government has expressed concern about the structural strength of the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear power plant's Number 1 reactor. It says the ongoing water injections may be making the vessel less earthquake resistant.

Tokyo Electric Power Company, or TEPCO, is planning to fill part of the containment vessel with water to cool the reactor.

TEPCO wants the water level to reach the top of the fuel rods in reactors one and three by mid July, so it can cool them under more stable conditions.

At the Number 1 reactor, where fuel rods are believed to be the most seriously damaged, six tons of water are being injected every hour.

TEPCO believes the water is vaporizing, then condensing in the containment vessel.

The water level is now estimated to be about half way up the bulb of the dry well.

TEPCO says the water accumulation will not compromise the structure. But the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency says large amounts of water can make the building less earthquake-proof.

The agency says it needs to check whether the suppression pool pipes can withstand higher levels of pressure from the extra water.

Saturday, April 23, 2011 07:20 +0900 (JST)


23 Apr 11 - 11:31 AM (#3141079)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

mg-

I reviewed the Bloomberg article and it does raise serious questions about the integrity of reactor Unit 4 after manufacturing errors were covered up:

"Warped Walls

The (reactor) vessel had sagged so that its height and width differed by more than 34 millimeters, meaning it should have been scrapped, according to nuclear regulations. Rather than sacrifice years of work and risk the company's survival, Tanaka's boss asked him to reshape the vessel so that no-one would know it had ever been damaged. Tanaka had been working as an engineer for the company's nuclear reactor division and was known for his programming skills."

However, that reactor was off-line for refueling during the current earthquake and tsunami and its manufacturing flaws could not have played a role in the current disaster.

Unit 4's nuclear fuel rods were shifted, prior to the event, to the spent fuel pool where there was indeed a major problem created by its cooling system being knocked out by the event. It's likely that after the spent fuel rods were exposed there was at least a partial meltdown which triggered another hydrogen explosion and fire.

Charley Noble


23 Apr 11 - 11:31 AM (#3141080)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

There are questions as to whether the buildings were built as specified, cheaper grades of concrete substituted, a problem with a container being shored up rather than rebuilt.

Some people have suggested dry ice. Is that foolish or could it work? mg


23 Apr 11 - 01:15 PM (#3141151)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

Off the top of my head...

Dry ice might be worth a shot in #4 pool. Difficult to inject it "deep enough" and how would one obtain the required amounts? Also, logistically, it might prove a nightmare just getting it on site.


23 Apr 11 - 02:22 PM (#3141207)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

How is it produced? Could it be manufactured on site? mg


23 Apr 11 - 02:24 PM (#3141210)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

sounds easy to make. pump it into cement mixer in form of snow and see if it can be pumped out. no water to deal wtih...


23 Apr 11 - 02:29 PM (#3141213)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

mg-

I don't think there would be any problem setting up a manufacturing system for making dry ice on site, other than the site radiation levels. If the dry ice were manufactured in pellet form it could be distributed more easily via some kind of pumping system. However, there might be a problem with the dry ice being so cold that coming in contact with very hot fuel rods might induce cracks, but that's just a guess on my part.

Charley Noble


23 Apr 11 - 03:11 PM (#3141244)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Liquid nitrogen/dry ice probably would boil off before it reached the fuel rods. It boils at temperatures well below room temperature. Thermal shock and fractures might be the result if it did reach the rods.

Moreover transporting enough would be difficult; a manufacturing plant near the reactors probably would be necessary.

The net shows that the proposal has been made. No takers.


23 Apr 11 - 04:31 PM (#3141276)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

former governor of prefecture

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/warnings-of-nuclear-disaster-not-heeded-claims-former-governor-2273764.html

"Snorts" at the IIC saying that this tsunami could not be predicted, as do I. It is predicted all the time where I live on the other side of the ocean.

Also this is interesting..we have heard for a long time about the young people leaving the farms for the city..someone somewhere asked why other young people, and they have a lot of unemployment, do not go in their stead..it was said they don't want to face 10 generations of discrimination. This discrimination is very serious and someone is going to connect all the dots between the organized crime, the caste system which still exists and the way the nuclear workers were not even fed for weeks proper food..a day or two, perhaps is understandable.

And the organized crime is pretty efficient..got supplies and water pretty quickly to people. Oh but the roads were all wrecked. They still did it. They have some code of honor that says no one should be allowed to suffer. mg


23 Apr 11 - 05:06 PM (#3141291)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

How can you run a nuclear facility with contract labor? Doesn't it strike one as dangerous? Don't you want highly trained technicians who know exactly what knob to push?

http://www.japanprobe.com/2011/04/12/perspectives-on-tepcos-use-of-contract-workers/


23 Apr 11 - 09:01 PM (#3141384)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

mg-

I believe there's some core group of engineers and operators who are coordinating the temp laborers. We do the very same thing when it comes to refueling our nuclear plants, for better or worse. Hundreds or temp workers are brought in who do tasks they know little about for an hour or so and then when they have received their maximum exposure to radiation shift over to the next plant on schedule. Yes, there's a disconnect in the system and they are endangering themselves. It's one of the reasons I've concluded that depending on nuclear power is irrational and immoral. And if it wasn't heavily subsided by the Federal government, it couldn't compete with alternative forms of energy.

Please do us an update of Trojan, given that it's in your back yard so to speak.

Charley Noble


24 Apr 11 - 10:40 AM (#3141626)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

From today's Guardian, one of those practical things that has to be dealt with, easily forgotten:

The government plans to send six vets into the exclusion zone near the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant to gauge the condition of hundreds of thousands of abandoned farm animals.

Dead livestock will be sprayed with lime to prevent the spread of disease, and the dying will be put down with the permission of their owners.

Farmers who fled their businesses at the start of the nuclear crisis left behind 3,000 cows, 130,000 pigs and 680,000 chickens. Last week, the government declared areas within a 12-mile radius of the plant a no-go zone and said residents attempting to return without permission risked a fine or arrest.


24 Apr 11 - 11:37 AM (#3141646)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Peter-

Yes, another sad impact of this disaster. The domestic animals depend on us for their survival, not to mention our love. And yet they are frequently abandoned when the evacuation order is given.

At least in the case of Katrina or other natural events, animal rescue teams can sometimes go in and save some of them.

Charley Noble


24 Apr 11 - 11:52 AM (#3141651)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

There's that ofcourse but it's just another example of the enormous problem the Japanese are dealing with at the moment and the strain on their manpower and resources there must be.   From the same article:

Thousands of Japanese troops are to resume their search for the bodies of people killed in last month's earthquake and tsunami, although hopes that many will be recovered are fading.

Around 14,300 people are confirmed to have died in the 11 March disaster, but more than 12,000 others are unaccounted for. Many are thought to have been swept out to sea or trapped beneath debris.


"5.000 troops involved in search for victims


24 Apr 11 - 02:15 PM (#3141728)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

This strikes me as VERY odd... NHK...

Japanese robots that will be used to inspect the damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant were shown to the media in Chiba, near Tokyo, on Sunday.

The robots were developed by research groups at Chiba Institute of Technology, Tohoku University and other institutions.

The remote-controlled robots with tracks more than 20 centimeters wide are designed to travel over stairs and debris. They have a camera on a one-meter long probe and a radiation monitor. Detailed 3-D images of the plant's interior can also be created with laser beams.

The cable-operated robot can be used to guide the wireless-controlled robot in areas where wireless communications are difficult.

The semiconductors in the robots are said to deteriorate under high levels of radiation. But tests show that they can withstand radiation levels 400 times higher than the limit for workers.

Eiji Koyanagi of Chiba Institute of Technology says the robots are highly mobile and easy to operate. He says his team will be able to improve the machines by using information obtained from the site.

Tokyo Electric Power Company workers are preparing to use the robots to inspect the plant.

Sunday, April 24, 2011 22:32 +0900 (JST)


24 Apr 11 - 03:45 PM (#3141786)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

I have wondered why there has not been more mention of dogs used in the rubble to seek out at first survivors, if any, or bodies. I heard of two dogs going right away, and then another 11, but I have not seen pictures or heard of more dog involvement. Was there much I am unaware of? Usually they are johnny on the spot in these disasters with dogs..Turkey comes to mind as having teams. Were teams kept away for any reason? mg


24 Apr 11 - 04:45 PM (#3141820)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

A radiation contamination map was made of the Fukushima plant No. 1 (Daiichi). Type and position of debris was mapped to aid in removal. One piece of concrete measured 900 msv/hour, a near lethal level. Some pipes and other material also was highly radioactive.
Tepco has started to use remotely controlled equipment in debris removal (see post by gnu).
Tepco is also searching for safe places to store the radioactive runoff from cooling operations.
Japan Times, Monday, April 25.

Economy and Fiscal Policy minister Kaoru Yosano said (Friday) that taxes must be part of funding for quake reconstruction. Polls indicate public support for increasing levies.


24 Apr 11 - 04:52 PM (#3141825)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

Firms here are selling off their Japanese and Korean vehicles dirt cheap and buying Fords.

Areoquip (hydraulics) has informed thier distibutors of a 9% price increase and long term delays in anything made with Japanese steel... IF they can even supply. Another hydraulics company has issued a letter to distributers... 20% across the board on ALL products, Japanese or not.


24 Apr 11 - 05:55 PM (#3141852)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Japan expects its products, including cars, to be back in full supply by December.
(South Korean and GM vehicles also big sellers in the west).


24 Apr 11 - 08:24 PM (#3141898)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Here's what I've harvested from NIRS:

"UPDATE, Noon, Thursday, April 21, 2011. As expected, the Japanese government has now turned the 20 kilometer "evacuation" zone into an exclusion zone. People entering the zone can be fined up to $1200 or jailed up to 30 days for entering the zone. Streams of people entered the zone earlier today before the new law went into effect to gather their possessions and check on their homes. The government will now allow a single visit per household, lasting no more than two hours, for people to gather their possessions. People returning from these visits will have to be screened for radiation. It is not clear what will happen to possessions found to be radioactive.

It is highly unlikely people will be allowed to return to the area, although the Japanese government appears to be willing to accept higher annual radiation levels for the public than other nations. For example, the government has allowed schools in Fukushima Prefecture outside the evacuation zone to open in April, despite radiation readings at 75% of the schools monitored showing radiation levels above the legal standard for a "radiation controlled area" – defined as an area where unnecessary human entry and radioactive exposure are to be prevented and avoided.

NHK TV reports that radioactive groundwater has been seeping into Units 5 and 6 at Fukushima Daiichi. These units are set some distance apart from the crippled Units 1-4, which means the overall contamination of the area, and migration of radioactive water, is significant.

Several media outlets reported that a Tepco official said Wednesday that Unit 1 is "melting down," although no clarification was included in these reports. Today, Tepco says that while there has been fuel damage at Units 1-4, it denies that there is ongoing melting of fuel."

It is of great concern that there is ground water migration of radioactive contaminated water from Units 1-4 to Units 5 and 6. But it's certainly not to be unexpected.

Charley Noble


24 Apr 11 - 09:20 PM (#3141914)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

if tepco says there is no meltdown, then how could there be? mg


25 Apr 11 - 12:50 PM (#3142085)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

some interesting webs

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704489604576284010597473764.html

http://mdn.mainichi.jp/perspectives/news/20110425p2a00m0na006000c.html


25 Apr 11 - 01:04 PM (#3142092)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Tepso said that there was partial melting in one of the reactors. Their recent statement said that there is no ongoing meltdown (in other words, it is under control).

Evacuees are to be allowed in for a maximum of 5 hours.

Prime minister Kan's party lost 7 of 10 contested seats, putting pressure on his rule.


25 Apr 11 - 01:13 PM (#3142096)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

slow motion

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/8472416/Chernobyl-recovery-officer-criticises-Japans-efforts-at-Fukushima.html


25 Apr 11 - 05:51 PM (#3142248)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

I have never understood why they did not use robots from the very beginning. Maybe there would be some down time training people for sophisticated purposes..but just one that could roam around, admittedly over rubble, with a video camera and some sensors.

Here is the answer "Fukuda said the company hadn't anticipated using robots in the power plant until they were offered by iRobot for free."

Most clever 14 year olds would have seen that as an immediate step. Many clever 14 year olds throughout the world could have at least programmed them to get sandwiches and water to the people slaving inside, who were neither given enough food or water for some time.


http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20110425/BUSINESS/104250321/Nuclear-cleanup-crews-get-hand-from-US-robots?odyssey=mod%7Cnewswell%7Ctext%7CHome%7Cs

This company is a danger to the world and an embarrassment to Japan. Pray that some smarter wiser people are brought in. mg


25 Apr 11 - 08:01 PM (#3142311)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

It is embarrassing.

We won't know the full story of just how embarrassing and tragic for years.

Charley Noble


25 Apr 11 - 08:43 PM (#3142332)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Jack Campin

I have never understood why they did not use robots from the very beginning.

Because, as an earlier article quoted in this thread mentioned, silicon chips are radiation-sensitive, and if you couldn't get enough radiation-hardened electronics for the robots, you'd simply be adding to the pile of inoperational junk lying around the site.

Radiation-hardened electronics is VERY expensive, only produced in minute quantities, and is generally not available in systems that can run off-the-shelf software. It's mainly used in space applications, and even the space radiation environment is easier to deal with than a disintegrating nuclear reactor. If you're looking for a chipset that can run a pre-existing set of semi-autonomous robot software modules on a standard operating system while fending off globs of white-hot melted core, you're going to be looking for a long time.

I suspect they may try to get round the problem by simply throwing robots into the plant like Stalin's infantry into a minefield, hoping they can clear the corpses before they stack too high. There is a real risk of catastrophe from any such attempt.


26 Apr 11 - 11:15 AM (#3142680)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

the government has apparently just now asked tepco to provide all records..just now..when they are known to have made horrible miscalculations in readings, when they just a few years ago were known to have falsified, not skipped, falsified, safety records, when some of their top people were forced to resign..Just now..if I am reading this right. This collusion of IIC is beyond comprehension.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703778104576286372128115118.html


26 Apr 11 - 02:26 PM (#3142832)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

"Nuke plants' backups fall way short." Kyodo, Japan Times, Wednesday, April 27.

"Most nuclear reactors in Japan would fail to achieve a stable condition in the event that all regular power sources are lost, even though plant operators have prepared new backup power sources as well as electric generators amid the crisid at the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant (Daiichi), according to utility industry sources."
"The possibility of a failure to secure the safety of the reactors is because the backup power sources do not have enough capacity to operate all of the devices needed to keep the reactors cool."

The report goes on the point out the failure of specific plants to have adequate backup.
Some ten firms own Japan's reactors.


26 Apr 11 - 03:07 PM (#3142849)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Jack Campin

Would any reactor anywhere in the world do much better if it was abruptly taken off the grid with fuel supplies cut off?


26 Apr 11 - 03:22 PM (#3142855)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

I still do not understand why contaminatd water can not be used to cool rods off. If the water is too hot by now then you could circulate it between cooled seawater pipes for example..lots of that nearby. mg


26 Apr 11 - 03:40 PM (#3142868)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Jack-

"Would any reactor anywhere in the world do much better if it was abruptly taken off the grid with fuel supplies cut off?"

The short answer is a resounding "NO!"

But the nuclear industry has always assured its critics that each nuclear plant has layers of back-up systems and such a total cut-off of external power is a highly unlikely event. Hell, our nuclear plants typically only had 4 hours of back-up battery power.

mg-

"why contaminated water cannot be used to cool rods off."

It can and eventually it will be used. I'm not sure why they aren't able to do that now. It needs to be collected in a pool or tank and then recirculated. This is only useful if the water is only contaminated with low-level radiation.

Charley Noble


26 Apr 11 - 03:44 PM (#3142872)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Jack, In the U. S., its old reactors mostly the same GE design, probaly would lack suitable backup.
Some of the newer reactors around the world are cooled differently, but again, I don't know anything about backup- very little on the net about that.


26 Apr 11 - 03:54 PM (#3142884)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

Jack... "Would any reactor anywhere in the world do much better if it was abruptly taken off the grid with fuel supplies cut off?"

Yes. The CANDU. I posted about the CANDU design and it's safety systems fairly early in the thread. Matter of fact, I lauded them until others here clued me into the spent fuel issue. Now, I am not a fan of any of them.


26 Apr 11 - 04:54 PM (#3142933)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

If it can be done why are they not issuing world-wide appeals for pipefitters or whatever? Or announcing that they hope to do this. Or asking for designs? It would have been especially easy I believe when the weather was cooler..now it is warming up..which of course makes it harder for people in hazmat suits..oh good news..some of them are made of paper and tear easily. mg


26 Apr 11 - 05:14 PM (#3142948)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/27/world/asia/27collusion.html?pagewanted=4&_r=1

cozy


26 Apr 11 - 09:01 PM (#3143091)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

mg-

"Cozy"

Well, more like ugh!

If you have the heart to make a song out of this, you probably would come up with a great one. It's well beyond my capacity.

Charley Noble


26 Apr 11 - 09:41 PM (#3143099)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

I had a fortune cookie once and it told me not to be controlled by things that disgust me. This disgusts me. I will not be an enabler here.

But a song is in the back of my head but it is a pretty one. mg


27 Apr 11 - 09:36 AM (#3143372)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,Guest

Chernobyl pictures in yesterday's newspaper brought back the horror of a poorly handled nuclear disaster. The Russians waited three days to report the explosion and failed to warn parents not to allow their children to drink contaminated milk. Thousands of babies grew up with thyroid cancer. Such a sad scene. Workers were put on site with minimal protection and not a chance in hell of surviving.
Japan has been stellar in comparison.


27 Apr 11 - 10:48 AM (#3143412)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

In some respects. How long would Tepco have waited to report the explosion if they could have gotten away with it? How did the government of Japan inform other countries of radiation pouring into the sea? mg


27 Apr 11 - 11:23 AM (#3143432)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Donuel

Has anyone monitored the radiation levels and changes in Canada as a result of Japan?

Since milk concentrates radiation 700 times how long will it be befire the levels accumulate to hazardous levels.

Is there an App for that?


27 Apr 11 - 12:30 PM (#3143471)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Damning report in New York Times, online today.
"Culture of Complicity Tied to Stricken Nuclear Plant"
N. Onishi and Ken Belton, April 26, 2011.

"Given the fierce insularity of Japan's nuclear industry,...fitting that an outsider exposed the most serious safety cover-up in the history of Japanese nuclear power. .......Fukushima Daiichi....."
In 2000, Ken Sugaoka, Japanese-American nuclear inspector who had worked for General Electric...told Japan's nuclear regulator about a cracked steam dryer that he believed had been concealed. If exposed, it could have forced TEPCO to undertake costly repairs.
The regulator, NISA, divulged Sugaoka's name to TEPCO, effectively blackballing him from the industry.
The agency instructed Tepco to deploy its own investigators to inspect Daiichi. Regulators allowed the company to keep operating its reactors for the next two years even though, an investigation ultimately revealed, its executives had hidden far more serious problems, including cracks in the shrouds that cover reactor cores.
Inconsistent, inconsistent or uninforced regulations played a role in the accident....
A ten-year extention for the oldest of Daiichi's reactors suggests that the regulatory system was allowed to remain lax by politicians, bureaucrats and industry executives single-mindedly focused on expanding nuclear power...... despite warnings about its safety and subsequent admissions by Tepco that it had failed to carry out proper inspections of critical equipment.
"In Japan, the web of connections between the nuclear power industry and government officials is ....referred to as the "nuclear power village.""

A long history of coverups, push to expand nuclear power, despite discovery of active fault lines under plants, danger of tsunami and safety coverups.
It has been considered political suicide to even discuss the need to reform the industry. "...a taboo, so nobody wanted to touch it," said Mr. Oshima, a Democratic Party member, who talks freely because he is backed by one of Japan's largest lay Buddhist movements.

Collusive practices between bureaucrats and industry, long practiced in Japan, are the rule. The article discusses these practices, and the names for them- amagaari or ascent to heaven and amakaduri or descent from heaven.
Interesting reading.


27 Apr 11 - 12:59 PM (#3143483)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST

And how is this any different from the recent oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico? Lies, collusion, deceit, etc.


27 Apr 11 - 01:27 PM (#3143498)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

NHK...

Tokyo Electric Power Company on Wednesday announced new estimates of damage after the country's nuclear safety agency questioned the accuracy of the initial assessments. The utility has revised the estimated fuel damage in the No.1 reactor from 70 percent to 55 percent, saying radiation levels were not correct.

TEPCO also says that it acted inappropriately in excluding fuel damage of less than 5 percent in calculating total damage ratios for the No.2 and No.3 reactors.

As a result, the utility revised upward its estimates of damaged fuel in the No.2 and No.3 reactors by 5 percentage points each to 35 percent and 30 percent respectively.
***********************************************

Tokyo Electric announced on Wednesday it would start building early next month, together with US and French firms, a storage and processing facility for nearly 70,000 tons of highly radioactive water. The utility firm aims to begin operating the system in June of this year.

The contaminated water is believed to be pooled inside turbine buildings and utility tunnels at the plant's 1, 2 and 3 reactors.

Tokyo Electric had earlier said it aims to set up by July of this year a system to remove radioactive substances from the water and reuse it to cool the reactors.

Contaminated water will be put through an oil filter, and the density of radioactive material would be lowered using a mineral called zeolite.

Salt would then be removed from the water so that it could be used to cool the reactors again.

Radioactive waste from this process would be stored inside the nuclear complex, but the utility has yet to consider methods for its final disposal.
*****************************************************

The operator of the troubled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant says water may be leaking from the spent fuel pool of the No. 4 reactor.

More than 1,500 spent fuel rods are stored in the pool, the largest number at the site.

Tokyo Electric Power Company, or TEPCO, has been injecting water daily into the pool to make up for the loss of cooling function and prevent the fuel rods from being exposed and further damaged.

TEPCO has poured in 140 to 210 tons of water over each of the last few days. The company found that water levels in the pool were 10 to 40 centimeters lower than expected despite the water injections.

The walls of the reactor building supporting the pool were severely damaged by a hydrogen explosion last month. TEPCO says the pool may have been damaged by the blast as well.

According to a schedule announced earlier on containing the ongoing emergency, TEPCO plans to install concrete pillars to support the fuel pool by around July to increase its earthquake resistance.


27 Apr 11 - 01:31 PM (#3143502)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Jack Campin

"...a taboo, so nobody wanted to touch it," said Mr. Oshima, a Democratic Party member, who talks freely because he is backed by one of Japan's largest lay Buddhist movements.

This reminds me of a long-standing bafflement.

In the late 1970s I was involved in campaigning against the construction of the Torness nuclear reactor near Edinburgh, and spent some time at a camp on the site. One of the people who joined us was a Nichiren Buddhist monk who used to walk around the countryside (or attach himself to demos) chanting "Name Myoho Renge Kyo" and banging a fan drum. He had a couple of pals along at times, and it seemed like whatever British presence the sect had was solidly anti-nuclear.

What I have since found out about Nichiren Buddhism is that it's some sort of quasi-fascist nationalist ideology in relgious garb - its most political manifestation being Soka Gakkai, which is more or less to Shinto what the Masons are to Christianity. A ruthless network within corporate capitalism. You would hardly expect them to oppose anything the technocratic elite had planned.

So what gives? How did those Nichiren guys end up on our side of the fence? And what is Mr Oshima up to?


27 Apr 11 - 02:37 PM (#3143558)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

How is this different from Gulf of Mexico? Same lies and deceit..but add radiation. Add unusability of farms and perhaps shellfisheries and ocean fisheries for way longer perhaps. Add health effects of people and discrimination against them. Add angry neighbors..in both cases..but people do not take kindly to other countries radiating their children. mg


27 Apr 11 - 03:50 PM (#3143600)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Keep your eye on the new information. The extent of the damage disclosed will only get larger and more severe. The early cover-ups will be exposed as newer ones are devised but we will get more of the story as long as attention stays sharply focused.

I was reading an article from last fall about the new generation of nuclear power plants, and how the environmental community was becoming reconciled to them, 25 years after Chernobyl and and 32 years after Three Mile Island. We can thank the Japanese earthquake and tsunami for buying the world another generation before anyone will seriously consider proposing another round of nuclear power plant construction.

Charley Noble


27 Apr 11 - 04:28 PM (#3143613)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Donuel

Jack, Regarding Nichren ShoShu Buddism, I was there and did that for 3 years. The fascist element evolved in a procession of increasingly severe guidlines. First it was to remove any non NSB literature from any bookcase or wall near the shrine. Later crazy announcments such as "remove every single book from one's home that is not Buddist in nature or even worse may be contrary to the master's teachings". Nam yo ho to you too ;)







Is there an app for the ACCUMULATING radiation and how it gets concentrated in food worldwide?



This will be my tag line for every post I make until I find an answer, or make one myself.


27 Apr 11 - 05:36 PM (#3143663)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

More on treatment of nuclear workers..contract..rumors were that they included the homeless but this was denied...

There is a severe problem with classism in Japan, sort of a caste system, and they have or had their "untouchables." Guess who some of the workers are.

But regardless, can someone tell me if they are being fed properly yet? I can see one or two days, but weeks? Months? What about water? What about bedding? Do not trust Tepco to do anything right. Do not expect the government to make them. Do not trust the media there to be totally comfortable exposing problems. Has to come from outside..not always..they are speaking up. mg


27 Apr 11 - 06:17 PM (#3143692)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Jack Campin

The final segment of Gunter Wallraff's film "Nach Unten"/"Lowest of the Low" (about the treatment of Turkish and Kurdish workers in Germany in the 1970s) was about a temporary-contract-workers employment agency. Wallraff tried to find out just how amoral the firm was. Filming with a camera concealed in a sandwich box, he impersonated the personnel officer of a nuclear power plant and set the manager up with a proposed job where migrant workers were supposed to go into a deadly radioactive environment for a cleanup operation. He specified that the workers had to be men who were about to go back to Turkey, with no ties to bring them back to Germany (implicitly, so they could dvelop radiation sickness and die in obscurity in scattered Anatolian villages). Could the agency find him a couple of dozen men for the job? Lemme think... yeah, okay, you're on.

So, what TEPCO seems to be doing is not unanticipated.


27 Apr 11 - 06:29 PM (#3143696)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Donuel

Nuclear workers are among the best minimum wage can buy.
Engineers on the other hand make several times minimum.


27 Apr 11 - 06:34 PM (#3143701)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Donuel

Owners ultimately make the kind of money that buys governments, banks and country clubs.


27 Apr 11 - 07:03 PM (#3143711)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

Also trace treatment of Koreans, treatment of Hiroshima victims, many of whom I have just found out were Koreans brought in as "workers", organized crime. If you grow up in a feudal society, or remnants of one, and some of the elders in Japan grew up in a feudal society, you do not see this as a problem, most likely..not intentionally..you just truly do not see it. We do not see many things that are right before our eyes. But again I say there has to be an explanation for why they don't even feed the workers properly..if you had a word for them, perhaps them, perhaps not, that means nonhuman, you don't think of their welfare, most likely. We have seen this all over the world..it is not a problem unique to any one country. But it is something that needs to have a spotlight shone on it. Now, you say? Why now? Because these workers are in extraordinary danger and not even being fed properly. mg


27 Apr 11 - 07:07 PM (#3143714)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Jack, there are several large Buddhist groups. Mr Oshima is associated with Rissho Kosei-Kai, which has nothing to do with the group you mention.


27 Apr 11 - 07:19 PM (#3143719)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Further to that, there are 6.5 million members of Rissho Kosei-Kai. One of the founders also was a founder of the World Conference of Religions for Peace.


28 Apr 11 - 01:13 PM (#3144143)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

I've just been checking the websites of our resource groups and was absolutely fascinated by this Fairwinds Associates video linked by NEARS on what most likely happened during the Unit 3 explosion at the Fukushima-1 nuclear complex (video loads slowly!): click here for video!

As you may recall, the explosion at Unit 3 was much more violent (Donuel certainly remarked on that) than the one at Unit 1. Evidently pieces of fuel rods have been found two miles away from the reactor. The reactor itself appears to be still intact. Therefore it seems likely that the explosion took place in the spent fuel pool. There was a huge inventory of spent fuel rods in that pool, and even some of the heaviest nuclear isotopes were volatilized and dispersed around the globe, being detected as far away as the East Coast of the United States. If this explanation of what happened is correct, this is very bad news, indeed.

The Unit-4 fuel pool still seems to be intact, which is good news. The fuel rods may be damaged there but they still can be seen in their racks.

I've only viewed the video once and on my computer it starts and stops a lot. So I may have missed past of the report.

I'm familiar with Fairwinds Associates as an organization that has provided important testimony on the Vermont Yankee license extension hearings. Arnold Gundersen is a well respected nuclear engineer who turned whistle-blower years ago. What he is suggesting does seem to make sense of the two explosions, and the damage that can be observed of the reactor units themselves.

Any other thoughts?

Charley Noble


28 Apr 11 - 02:11 PM (#3144189)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

Just watched the vid (thanks Charley)... He says appears the #3 explosion may have nuclear in nature. Holy shit!

He says the shockwave of the H&O blast in the EMPTY pool caused a distortion of the spent fuel which created a prompt nuclear reaction, a prompt criticality.

My first question is, why wasn't it bigger? Would only "some" of the fuel explode?

He says a H & O blast would not cause the flash and is not an explosion which moves faster that the speed of sound.

Q2... huh?

He says the facts that pieces of fuel rods were found two miles away, U and P have been found around the plant, U has been detected in the west US, and that amoresium (spg) has been found in New England demonstrate that it went nuke. Also, he says the ratio of two isotopes (didn't catch the name) would prove if it was a nuke and that the US government has the info but isn't telling the public.


Q3... huh? Really?

I think it was a H blast ignited by the burning of the fuel rod jackets. Imagine how much H there must have been if the pool was EMPTY. I ain't no Sapper or nuke injunear but I would think it would go boom in a big way and blow fuel rods up yer ass.

As far as the hot spot on the heatcam, I assume burning jackets. Did he say when the heatcam pic was taken?

Sounded plausible the first time I watched the vid. Second time, I ain't a believer yet.


28 Apr 11 - 02:23 PM (#3144198)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

BTW Charley. If there are any specific questions you have re the vid, I could try to answer them for you as my connection is faster than yours.

I also find it helpful to backclick on the play bar to go over key points as many times as it takes to get the finer points through my thick skull and making notes if I have to. I find my notes helpful in dissecting arguements, especially when different terms are used for the same things at different points in the overall arguement. Dunno if that's from years of training or just on accounta I ain't too bright.


28 Apr 11 - 02:30 PM (#3144205)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

from slate
http://www.slate.com/id/2292315/

from you tube

bigwig discusses organized crtime

http://www.slate.com/id/2292315/


28 Apr 11 - 04:50 PM (#3144313)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

I am speculating that the Fukushima disaster may cause other industries in Japan to put pressure on the government for reform.
For example, 40% of the world's automobile microcontrollers are made in Japan by Reneses Electronics.
A shortage of these chips is affecting manufacturers outside of Japan as well as Japan's own vehicle industry.
Manufacturers will look for other suppliers, outside of Japan.
This company and other Japanese manufacturers may find that they will have reduced sales even after they rebuild, permanently affecting Japan's GDP.

I could not swallow all of Gunderson's conclusions. I dunno.

Chubu Electric Power Co. is planning to restart a reactor in its Hamaoka plant, "now subject to regular checkups," in Shizuoka Prefecture in July "to continue stable power supply this summer.

The company is making earnings forcasts on the assumption that it will start its reactor on the Pacific in Omaezaki, it said.
The CEO said that if restarting is delayed beyond July, they will incur additional costs of 200 million yen/day.
Japan Times, April 29, 2011.


28 Apr 11 - 06:11 PM (#3144375)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Gunderson does have a point of view and an ax to grind with an industry that doesn't like whistle-blowers, however qualified. So I understand why some who have made major contributions to this thread might prefer to remain skeptical. However, I have much more respect for Gunderson that I do for TEPCO or the NRC.

I'll also be interested in how the Union of Concerned Scientists responds to his video, as soon as I can figure out the best way to contact them again.

Charley Noble


29 Apr 11 - 05:03 AM (#3144585)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

Yes, Charley... I too would like to hear what UCS has to say on the claim of a nuke blast.


29 Apr 11 - 08:06 AM (#3144650)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

gnu et al-

That yellow flash on the right side of Reactor Unit 3 may be a unique signature. The fact that the explosion was directed upward suggests that it was channeled in some way and its possible that the concrete structure of the spent fuel pool provided that focus and that the fuel itself exploded possibly triggered by an explosion of hydrogen gas. In Unit 1 containment building the blast was dispersed in all directions as the hydrogen exploded, indicating that the gas was more generally dispersed. Just my thoughts trying to piece this together.

I've sent an inquiry in to the Union of Concerned Scientists, attempting to break through their contact fire wall; donor inquiries are the primary options on the drop-down menu but my wife has been a supporting member for 30 years.

It's not clear to me from the video of the wreckage if any part of the spent fuel pool survived the explosion, and remember the fuel there was uniquely laced with Plutonium. Ugh!

Charley Noble


29 Apr 11 - 08:23 AM (#3144660)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Jack Campin

If you search on YouTube for "fuel air explosion" you will find rather a lot of yellow flashes associated with much bigger bangs than Fukushima Dai-ichi 3. Gundersen is just talking nonsense here.

And clouds of black smoke can mean almost anything - certainly doesn't have to be nuclear fuel. Burning thermal foam insulation would look the same. So would diesel fuel, and it would make sense for them to have that on-site to power the pumps.

When I was a kid in New Zealand there was a dockside accident where an acetylene cylinder fell out of a crane net, hit concrete and went bang. The top end of the cylinder was found a few weeks later on the other side of the harbour, two miles away. The same distance that Gundersen is saying a conventional vapour explosion couldn't throw a fuel rod.


29 Apr 11 - 08:47 AM (#3144674)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

Charley... if the pool was even partially empty enough to expose the fuel, resulting in the fuel jackets providing ignition, the pool would surely act "as a rifle", as was said in the video. But, I still do not accept that there was a nuke blast. There is no evidence to support this.

As for Gundersen implying that the government has the data but isn't making it public... they have aliens and spacecraft too don't they? >;-)


01 May 11 - 09:04 AM (#3145751)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,Jim Martin

There's been no news on the BBC website for some days now, I wonder if that really means there's no news or that it's just not getting out!


01 May 11 - 12:41 PM (#3145848)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

WTF???

NHK...

Prime Minister Naoto Kan says the government and Tokyo Electric Power Company failed to fully address safety issues that had come to light before the March 11 disaster.

An accident last June at Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant caused by the loss of outside power and the subsequent drop in the water levels of a reactor was taken up at Sunday's Upper House Budget Committee meeting.

In response to a question on whether sufficient safety measures had been taken, Kan said nuclear plants operate on the assumption that emergency diesel generators will maintain a reactor's cooling functions when outside power is cut off.

He said the fact that such a back-up system failed to work properly has serious implications.

Kan said measures were not taken despite previous accidents and warnings, and that he must admit that the utility and the government failed to fully deal with the situation.

He also suggested that he will study the possibility of setting up an alternative capital to take over Tokyo's role in an emergency, saying that measures must be taken to secure the continuity of the capital's central functions.

Sunday, May 01, 2011 23:20 +0900 (JST)

"... study the possibility of setting up an alternative capital to take over Tokyo's role in an emergency, saying that measures must be taken to secure the continuity of the capital's central functions."

That sounds RATHER ominous. Anybody care to jump to any, ah, er, "theories"?


01 May 11 - 12:47 PM (#3145852)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

Is anyone surprised about the June incident? Do we not see how they operate? mg


01 May 11 - 01:58 PM (#3145903)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

CNN, BBC, CTV and Al Jazeera have dropped any prominent coverage of the Japanese nuclear problems, perhaps believing the public is no longer interested.
Japan Times remains the best Japanese newspaper source of updates.

1. A second woman working with sick workers from the Fukushima Daiichi (No. 1) plant has been found to have been overexposed from radiation. Tepco says it is thought she inhaled radioactive particles from the workers' clothing.

Four women, two not radiation workers, have been found by Tepco to have been overexposed.

2. 76 percent of Japanese in a poll think Prime Minister Kan is doing a poor job.

3. Kan promises temporary housing for all evavuees by Bon (a mid-August holiday).


01 May 11 - 05:39 PM (#3146030)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

I asked for a second opinion to the video presentation by Arnie
Gundersen linked by NIRS:

"A new video from nuclear engineer Arnie Gunderson of Fairewinds
Associates postulates that the Unit 3 explosion was sparked by a
criticality in its fuel pool. The video includes excellent footage
and a clear explanation.

Gunderson makes an interesting case for the explosion in the
Fukushima-1 Unit 3 spent fuel pool being more than a hydrogen explosion."

Here's the reply from David Lochbaum of the Union of Concerned Scientists:

"I do not believe that there was a criticality blast at Fukushima.
Uncovered fuel is known to create copious amounts of hydrogen.
Copious amounts of hydrogen are known to explode."

In summary, I continue to agree with Gunderson that the concrete structure of the spent fuel pool in Unit 3 channeled the blast upwards with tremendous force and that the inventory of spent fuel rods laced with Plutonium was fragmented in the hydrogen explosion and dispersed around the nuclear complex site area.

Charley Noble


02 May 11 - 07:29 AM (#3146340)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,Jim Martin

Workers preparing to instal air purifier in Reactor No.1:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13257557


02 May 11 - 07:36 AM (#3146347)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Jim-

I also find this quote from your link of interest:

On Monday top government spokesman Yukio Edano said the government would not cap liabilities faced by Tepco, because the disaster was "not impossible to foresee".

It's about time that TEPCO's chickens came home to roost, especially after they'd counted their chicks before they hatched! (You may quote me or not)

Charley Noble


02 May 11 - 11:08 AM (#3146459)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: mg

Well of course the government should have equally forseen it, since any schoolchild here on the opposite side of the ocean hears about the big one, 9.0 or greater, all the time. Don't let anyone get buy with oh gee we did not see this one coming. it is because we are either too ignorant or too lackadasical to do anything about it. mg


02 May 11 - 12:48 PM (#3146514)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

U. S. doctors, "Social Responsibility," a non-profit organization of docters, condemns the limits on radiation set by the government for playgrounds at schools as being too high. They are joined by Toshiso Kosako, University of Tokyo professor, who said he would step down as an advisor to Prine Minister Kan in protest.
The U. S. group said any exposure, including background,can be a danger to children, and fetuses are even more vulnerable.
Japan Times, May 3, 2011.

Schools on the west coast of the U. S. might teach about the dangers of a large earthquake, but most children would be only remotely aware, if at all, of what earthquakes could do.


02 May 11 - 01:12 PM (#3146541)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

They know and they know about tsunamis too except they call them salamis. mg


02 May 11 - 01:22 PM (#3146547)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Bill D

"...they call them salamis...."

They do? I don't get the joke....


02 May 11 - 02:23 PM (#3146579)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

They have salami races in skiing ?


02 May 11 - 03:07 PM (#3146612)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

it is not a joke...they are young and misheard. that is what they called it when we evacuated for one here. mg


02 May 11 - 07:11 PM (#3146754)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

Charley... another one for you... NHK...

Some of the shareholders of a Japanese electric power company say they want the utility to close its nuclear power plants.

On Monday, a group of 232 individual stockholders of Tohoku Electric Power Company submitted the documents needed for their proposal to scrap its nuclear power plants.

The proposal is expected to be put to a vote in an annual shareholders' meeting at the end of next month.

Tohoku Electric Power has 2 nuclear power plants in Japan's northeastern region, one in Higashidori Village in Aomori Prefecture and another in Onagawa Town in Miyagi Prefecture.

The group is also calling for the company to end its investment in spent nuclear fuel reprocessing businesses, including a reprocessing plant at Rokkasho Village in Aomori Prefecture.

The group representative, Hironori Shinohara, noted the moves by power companies to introduce additional safety measures following the nuclear emergency involving Tokyo Electric Power Company. But he said accidents never happen under the same scenarios, and stressed the importance of shutting down the nuclear plants.

An official of Tohoku Electric Power said the company takes the disaster facing TEPCO extremely seriously. The official said Tohoku Electric will examine the proposal and submit it to the shareholders' meeting along with comments from board members.

Monday, May 02, 2011 20:15 +0900 (JST)

Not so good...

The operator of the troubled Fukushima nuclear power plant says it has detected higher levels of radioactive materials in seawater samples from near the water intake at one of the reactors.

Tokyo Electric Power Company says it detected 130 becquerels of radioactive iodine-131 per cubic centimeter in samples collected near the water intake for the Number 2 reactor on Saturday. The figure is 3,300 times the national limit and 30 percent higher than the level detected on Friday.

It's the same site where iodine-131 at a level 7.5 million times the limit was detected on April 2nd. TEPCO says it detected radioactive cesium-134 at 120 times the limit and cesium-137 at 81 times the limit at the same place on Saturday. But the readings taken for these 2 substances were down for the third straight day.

There was a 90 percent drop in levels of iodine and cesium to the south of water intakes for reactors 1 through to 4.

The level of highly radioactive water in the sea rose to three to four times the level of the previous day along the coast 10 kilometers south of the power plant.

TEPCO says it's continuing to monitor the level, though there has not been a fresh leak of highly contaminated water.

Monday, May 02, 2011 05:45 +0900 (JST)


02 May 11 - 07:51 PM (#3146778)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Gnu-

"130 becquerels of radioactive iodine-131 per cubic centimeter in samples collected near the water intake for the Number 2"

I was thinking that that one was supposed to be coasting to cold shutdown. Unit 2, I believe, was one of the reactor building which had suffered the least damage in the hydrogen explosions in the row of four reactor buildings.

I wonder what is going on.

It's so hard for even experts to figure out what is going on at these reactors and spent fuel pools when readings fluctuate so erratically.

Charley Noble


02 May 11 - 09:09 PM (#3146808)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Jack Campin

If it's at the *intake* then presumably reactor 2 itself can't be responsible.

A lump of hot debris on the seafloor from one of the other reactors, maybe?


03 May 11 - 07:53 AM (#3147009)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Jack-

There has been a lot of confusion generated in press releases by references to "intakes" and "outflows." It's never totally clear from translation if the correct term is being used.

It's also likely that some parts of the spent fuel rods which were blasted apart in the explosion at Reaction Unit 3 ended up in the bay. But one would think the readings would be more consistent. Lord knows who systematically they have been monitoring radiation, and what forms of radiation.

Charley Noble


03 May 11 - 12:41 PM (#3147144)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

from japan

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/japan/110501/opinion-japan-nuclear?page=0,1


03 May 11 - 01:42 PM (#3147176)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

mg-

An interesting article on the Japanese nuclear power experience from a Japanese point of view.

Note to posters: please provide a short summary of the articles you link to.

Charley Noble


03 May 11 - 01:58 PM (#3147184)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

One reason why some information about the status of the reactors is incomplete and confused-

"Power Cut Doomed Fallout Computer"
"The nation's system (Emergency Response Support System) for predicting the volume of radioactive materials to be released to the environment failed amid the nuclear crisis at the Fukushima No. 1 (Daiichi) power poant due to the power supply cut following the March 11 earthquake and tsunami..."
"The malfunction of the ERSS, coupled with "insufficiencies" attributed to SPEEDI, the System for Prediction of EnvironmentalEmergency Dose Information, which projects the dispersal of radioactive fallout based on ERSS forecasts, is likely to have delayed the evacuation of Fukushima residents.
"Japan sent SPEEDI data to the U. N. but withheld it from the public."
"The failure of the 28 billion yen systems casts further doubts on Japan's disaster-prevention policy."
ERSS is managed by the Japan Nuclear Energy Safety Organization, under the supervision of the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry.

The system is "still unable to collect any data on reactors No. 1 to No. 5."

Too many bureaucratic layers breed failure to respond to emergencies and to pass on critical information to the public.


03 May 11 - 02:14 PM (#3147193)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

That post based on a Japan Times report, May 3, 2011.

Another report-
Japan Times, May 4, 2011

"Utilities Get 68 Ex-bureaucrats Via 'Amakudari'."
The past 50 years have seen 68 former elite bureaucrats parachuting into top positions at the nation's 12 electricity suppliers after retiring from the Ministry, Trade and Industry, including five who landed at TEPCO.
At present, 13 retired career-track METI bureaucrats hold senior positions at electric power companies under the practice of "amakudari" (descent from heaven).
METI, which oversees 10 electric utilities and two electricity wholesalers, investigated the matter after the crisis at TEPCO's Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant fueled criticism of the practice.
"....creates "cosy, corrupt relations" and "slack supervision."

So much for Japan's perceived efficiency in industry.


03 May 11 - 03:57 PM (#3147249)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Yetch!

Charley Noble


04 May 11 - 06:42 AM (#3147579)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,Jim Martin

Parents protest about radioactive playgrounds:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/02/parents-revolt-radiation-levels?INTCMP=SRCH


04 May 11 - 09:15 AM (#3147654)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Yes, children and younger infants are those most vulnerable to radiation exposure. And if the radiation is on a school playground they would be exposed to it 5 days a week, increasing their inventory throughout the year.

Do the math!

Charley Noble


04 May 11 - 12:58 PM (#3147826)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

The Guardian article covers much the same ground as Japanese press reports, but adds the parents protest, which I haven't seen in the Japan Times.
The JP does have a section called "Views from the Street." The question today was "Do you think the Government should take over TEPCO? The respondants said yes, but government mishandling was also mentioned.

TEPCO reports that their workers are preparing to enter the No. 1 reactor building at Fukushima for the first time since it was wrecked by a hydrogen blast the day following the quake/tsunami.
The air must be filtered first. TEPCO is setting up a ventilation system inside with oxygen cylinders and erecting a tentlike structure at the double-door entrance with higher air pressure than in the reactor building to prevent radioactive materials from leaking outside.
The company then plans to set up air coolers outside the reactor building to cool the water filling the containment vessel of the reactor(replacement for the one that went down furing the tsunami.
If the new cooling system works, TEPCO said the temperature in the reactor will drop to under 100 C., achieving cold shutdown, within several days. [Boldface mine]

Seabed samples from 15-20 km north of the plant showed high levels of radioactivity. A similar amouts was found 20 km south of the plant.
Greenpeace has sttarted to take readings outside Japan's 12 mile territorial waters.

{The high seabed readings are not good; the life cycle and food use of organisms dependent on a food chain based on bottom dwelling/feeding organisms will be affected, and the effects passed on to pelagic/marine dwellers.}


04 May 11 - 01:34 PM (#3147858)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Donuel

The high sea floor reading may be evidence that the exlosion at #3 blew MOX fuel far from the plant.


04 May 11 - 02:30 PM (#3147902)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

Ya know... we all would like this mess cleaned up yesterday, but I gotta say, the poor bastards IN CHARGE of trying to bring things under control must be in a living hell. To quote David Letterman, "I wouldn't give their troubles to a monkey on a rock."


05 May 11 - 05:53 AM (#3148373)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,Jim Martin

Workers enter No.1 reactor building:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13289877


05 May 11 - 07:49 AM (#3148421)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Here's another aerial view of the entire Fukushima-1 nuclear complex: click here for image!

There are also diagrams that clarify the position of the reactors, the tunnels, and trenches that have come up for discussion.

In my mind I've evidently had the relative positions of reactor units 1-4 reversed with regard to their proximity to the bay. And I was never quite sure where reactor units 5 and 6 were.

So the workers enter Unit-1 in teams for 10 minutes each. Does this mean they return for another 10-minute shift? If so, what is the logic of that in terms of limiting their exposure?

Charley Noble


05 May 11 - 07:52 AM (#3148424)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Donuel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZmmSSwtuS0

Note there are no special foods or substances you can eat that will protect you from injesting radioactive particles in food.


05 May 11 - 12:46 PM (#3148619)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Maybe it's time to re-examine our assumptions about the impact of the Fukushima-1 disaster. Here's a link to one of the major long-time critics, Karl Grossman, of the nuclear industry: click here!

I tend to agree that the media coverage of this disaster has been totally inadequate, and given the attention span of the media, and the general public, they've refocused on hotter topics.

Charley Noble


05 May 11 - 12:49 PM (#3148623)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Digression-
Some good news for Japan's industry:

Mayor Bloomberg selects Nissan minivan to be New York's next Yellow Cabs.
The vehicle is estimated to average 25 mpg and will cost c. $29,000 (order will eventually total more than $1 billion.
The vehicle can be converted to electrical energy in the future.
It will be manufactured in Mexico, with some final touches in the U. S.
? New York energy sources.
Nuclear- 26-33% (depending on source information)
[Natural Gas- 26%
[Petroleum- 2%
Hydro- 17%
Imported- 14% (Quebec, Ontario, New England)
Coal- 12%
Figures from Cornell University, Wind energy report.
What is the advantage of electrical vehicles if the energy green footprint is not reduced?
Partial answers (apart from efficiency of new vehicles)- Less air pollution in NYC.
Con- energy required in manufacture (unless older vehicles only retired after they are worn out).


05 May 11 - 01:00 PM (#3148628)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Donuel

Elements from Fukushima has been found in milk as far away as Maryland.

Hawaii and Alaska have the most Fukushima radiation in their food followed by the NW states.

They do not want Washingtom apples to be shummed by the market.
The same goes for California wines and produce.

What should they do? Tell the truth?

Of course they will down play away.


05 May 11 - 01:38 PM (#3148656)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Jack Campin

Fukushima radiation has been found in Scotland:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-13284984


05 May 11 - 03:33 PM (#3148736)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

The iodine-131 detected in Glasgow, and all other recording sites mentioned is minute and should pose no risk.
A panel of University of Maryland nuclear experts say the U. S. is safe from radiation leaking out of Fukushima. Also no risk from that detected in Massachusetts rainfall. West coast report posted here some time ago.
Various reports on the net.


05 May 11 - 04:51 PM (#3148793)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703849204576302763991781504.html

Yesterday was the first time I saw any official concern or notice about this. To have to wait almost two months, if this is so, for boxed lumches is totally unnecessary and inexcuseable. mg


06 May 11 - 08:58 AM (#3149169)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,Jim Martin

Another nuclear plant Hamaoka)to close:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13306358


06 May 11 - 01:35 PM (#3149299)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Hamaoka plant- BBC story incomplete and not accurate?

Japan has urged Chubu Electric (the operator, not Tepco) to suspend all 3 reactors while a seawall and other structures are built to ensure a major earthquake/tsunami does not cause a second radiation crisis.
Chubu said it will "swiftly consider" the government's request.
Chubu has drawn up safety measures including a seawall 1.5 km long over the next 2-3 years. [12 meters height, T. Yamada, Chubu official]. Also planned are concrete walls along 18 water pumps to protect the pumps from damage, to take 1-1 1/2 years to construct.
The plant has no barrier now but sandhills between the ocean and the plant are c. 10-15 meters high, according to the company.

"Trade Minister Banni Kaieda said the utility should halt operating its nuclear reactors while implementing such safety measures. He argued Chubu's safety measures were "not enough" without elaborating further."
"Until the company completes safety steps, it is inevitable that it should stop operating nuclear reactors," Kaieda said.

The plant provides power to 16 million people. TOYOTA headquarters plant and other automakers would be affected.

Associated Press, May 6, 2011, Shino Yuasa.

Note- This will be the subject of back-and-forth argument for some time before implementation !
The government request does not mean immediate stoppage.


06 May 11 - 06:26 PM (#3149469)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

Well, whaddya do? Screw up 16M people and their industry in the meantime? What will happen to some of those people?... to Toyata and others? It ain't an easy situation to mitigate.


06 May 11 - 08:43 PM (#3149529)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

On a personal note Judy and I will be meeting tomorrow with one of our favorite nieces who just paid a visit to one of her good friends in Northwestern Japan. She had studied there a year on full scholarship and now speaks Japanese well enough to bluff her way through ten minutes of conversation with native speakers. She's part Native-American with some Asian characteristics and a slight build, which helps her blend in with the crowd.

She and her mother want us to check her out with our radiation monitoring equipment (left over from our more activist days). However, she probably picked up more radiation flying and going through security checks than she encountered in one week in Japan. We made our arguments for postponing the visit but she really wanted to see her friend and she plans to teach English there next year.

Charley Noble


07 May 11 - 01:20 PM (#3149881)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Chibu Electric says it will not implement the suspension of the Hamaoka reactors, as requested by Prime Minister Kan, "while it weighs the consequences."
Japan Times, Saturday, May 7, 2011.

"800 nuke plant workers get belated health checkups."
They have spent more than a month battling the nuclear emergency at Fukushima No. 1 plant (Daiichi).
"Exams for 30 irradiated above 100-millisievert precrisis limit neglected at Fukushima No. 1."
Japan Times, May 7, 2011.

"In Search of a nuclear disposal site."
"Roughly 300 km NW of Finland's capital, Helsinki, is the island of Olkiluoto, home to two nuclear power plants and the potential site for one of the world's first permanent underground high-level waste repositories."
A blueprint diagram shows the proposed layout, some several hundred meters underground.
Japan Times, May 7, 2011.
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20110507f1.html


07 May 11 - 01:40 PM (#3149892)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

"radiation monitoring equipment"

Pray tell of this equipment.

Dad used to bring home rocks from the cobalt fields in Ontario and a Geiger counter, get me to hide them in the house and he would find them. I was fascinated as a boy of four or so.

Dad and the lads used to have their film tags read every day before leaving the base (CFB Trenton). When they got close to the weekly limit, they would leave the the tags in their desks at the base before going to *****. Everyone who worked on his team died of cancer which began in the upper femurs. Nuclear warfare is dangerous business.


07 May 11 - 06:27 PM (#3150050)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

Niece and her accessories checked out within the normal background radiation of our back porch. We did have to destroy some of the treats she brought back with her from Japan. She was there for about a week visiting a good friend and her family but is planning to return in a month or so and teach English south of Kyoto for at least a year.

Our old nuclear radiation monitoring unit, purchased in 1997, is a Radalert, manufactured in the USA buy International Mecom; it detects alpha, beta, gamma and X radiation. You can purchase a newer upgraded one for about $500.

Charley Noble


07 May 11 - 06:54 PM (#3150066)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: GUEST,mg

Don't let them get by with oh we overlooked checking out the health of the workers in the plant. This was deliberately avoided for financial or legal reasons or callous disregard for those they considered expendable. mg


07 May 11 - 06:59 PM (#3150069)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

Charley... are you monitoring radiation on a daily basis?


07 May 11 - 07:17 PM (#3150076)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: gnu

NHK...

The Tokyo Electric Power Company is preparing to open the doors of the Number 1 reactor building at the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.
The move is necessary to restore the reactor's cooling system and may take place as early as Sunday afternoon.

TEPCO says a small amount of radioactive substances are expected to be released into the air for about one hour.

The company says it will first obtain approval from the government's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency and confirm that there will be very little impact on the surrounding environment. Then it will open the two-tired doors of the reactor building.

On Thursday, TEPCO activated a new air-filtering system in the Number 1 Reactor building, which was installed to remove radioactive substances.

The utility says that by early Saturday morning, the density of radioactive material in the air had fallen to about 10 percent the target level.

TEPCO says after opening the doors, possibly on Sunday afternoon, it plans to remove highly radioactive contaminated debris.

Then, workers will enter the building to begin restoring the Number 1 Reactor cooling system.

Sunday, May 08, 2011 01:25 +0900 (JST)


07 May 11 - 08:57 PM (#3150112)
Subject: RE: BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011
From: Charley Noble

gnu-

We wish them well in their mission. But I doubt that wishes will provide them as much protection as they will need. Even if "the density of radioactive material in the air had fallen to about 10 percent the target level" there is still the danger of incidental exposure to some hot spot or other. The workers doing this job are incredibly brave and willing to sacrifice their lives for the good of their country. I doubt if many will survive another ten years. So it goes with nuclear power gone bad.