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17 Mar 11 - 06:01 AM (#3115543) Subject: BS: St. Patrick's Flag From: Keith A of Hertford Which flag should fly today? In Downpatrick, where the saint's tomb can be seen, they are not sure. From BBC site. A row over which flag should fly at the St Patrick's Day celebrations in Downpatrick has cast a shadow over the planned festivities. In previous years the flag of St Patrick, a red cross on a white background, has been used alongside the council flag. Sinn Fein councillor, Eamon McConvey is expected to carry an Irish tricolour flag at the parade instead. Several schools and organisations have pulled out as a result. The row erupted at Down District Council this week when some councillors reiterated their objections to the use of the St Patrick's flag. They said it has links to the Protestant ascendancy in Ireland in the 17th and 18th centuries and they do not want it used. Other council members have said they do not have a problem with it, arguing that it pre-dates nationalist and unionist divisions and goes back to Norman times. |
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17 Mar 11 - 06:33 AM (#3115566) Subject: RE: BS: St. Patricks Flag From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) It is perfectly legal for those living in Northern Ireland to fly the Irish Tricolour. Residents there can also hold an Irish passport. I was over in Ulster in January, and in Republican areas of Belfast I saw a number of Palestinian flags, and in Loyalist areas, the Israeli flag. Work that one out ! |
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17 Mar 11 - 06:47 AM (#3115577) Subject: RE: BS: St. Patricks Flag From: Keith A of Hertford Union flags and tricolours are seen everywhere in the North, but this should be a cross cultural celebration, some say. |
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17 Mar 11 - 07:32 AM (#3115600) Subject: RE: BS: St. Patricks Flag From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) Sadly few things are over there. I recall a time when Protestants in Ulster would not take part in anything associated with St,Patrick. I recall seeing a photograph many years ago of a policeman removing Shamrock from a guys coat ! Events such as the Easter Parade and the Twelfth of July celebrations will never become cross community, St, Patrick's day should be though. He brought Christianity to Ireland, well so I am lead to believe. |
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17 Mar 11 - 07:36 AM (#3115601) Subject: RE: BS: St. Patricks Flag From: Dave MacKenzie I remember being taught in the Scouts that the 'St Patrick's Cross' was invented at the time of the Union of the Parliaments because it aws a conventient shape to incorporate in the existing Union Flag. |
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17 Mar 11 - 08:06 AM (#3115612) Subject: RE: BS: St. Patricks Flag From: Nigel Parsons If they're celebrating St Patrick's Day, there can be no flag more suitable than St Patrick's Flag. Before it was taken up by Cardiff City supporters I recall people being confused on St David's Day when Cardiff City Hall flew the flag of St David (Gold cross on a black ground)which few recognised. |
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18 Mar 11 - 03:23 AM (#3116246) Subject: RE: BS: St. Patricks Flag From: Allan Conn "and in Republican areas of Belfast I saw a number of Palestinian flags, and in Loyalist areas, the Israeli flag. Work that one out" You will see that at Hampden Park, Glasgow, this weekend when Rangers and Celtic take to the field. Just some other way that the respective bigots can point out the other side are different! |
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18 Mar 11 - 03:43 AM (#3116251) Subject: RE: BS: St. Patricks Flag From: michaelr Not too hard to work out... |
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18 Mar 11 - 08:12 PM (#3116733) Subject: RE: BS: St. Patricks Flag From: GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler Just as long as we get to fly the Yorkshire Flag on August 1st! |
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19 Mar 11 - 01:26 PM (#3117057) Subject: RE: BS: St. Patricks Flag From: Stringsinger How about a plastic bowler and green beer flag? St. Paddy might have chased the snakes out of Ireland but he apparently sent some nonsense to America. I like to celebrate the heritage of Ireland through music, dance and stories and not through an excuse to get drunk and act crazy on a bogus holiday. |
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19 Mar 11 - 03:13 PM (#3117127) Subject: RE: BS: St. Patricks Flag From: Dave the Gnome St Patrick was Welsh. So how about the red dragon? |
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19 Mar 11 - 03:28 PM (#3117136) Subject: RE: BS: St. Patricks Flag From: Thompson Wasn't he a Breton? A brother of his was a bishop in Brittany, certainly. I don't know that he was given to carrying flags himself. Maybe they shouldn't carry any flags at all? |
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20 Mar 11 - 01:10 PM (#3117606) Subject: RE: BS: St. Patricks Flag From: Dave the Gnome No, sorry Thomson - From history.com (there are plenty of others as well if you care to look) It is known that St. Patrick was born in Britain to wealthy parents near the end of the fourth century. He is believed to have died on March 17, around 460 A.D. Although his father was a Christian deacon, it has been suggested that he probably took on the role because of tax incentives and there is no evidence that Patrick came from a particularly religious family Never heard of his brother being a bishop in Brittany - although I am happy to accept any eveidence to the contrary. BTW - What did Pat say when he was driving the snakes out of Irleand? Looking back over his shoulder from the driving seat - "Are you alright back there, lads?" :D |
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21 Mar 11 - 01:25 AM (#3117995) Subject: RE: BS: St. Patricks Flag From: ollaimh how about the toronto st pats. they were a hockey team--how canuck is that? they wore a green jersey with qa shamrock. they won a stanley cup, but they were bought by a protestant torontonian, con smythe, and he chqanged the name to the toronto maple leafs.he was an ulster unionist supprter--common in prewar toronto--and he abhored the catholic association. so we had our own battel over st patrick in prewar toronto. the leafs weare st pats uniforms as alternative uniforms on special occasions now. con smythe is safely dead and and now toronto has a multcultural tradition. there are vast areas that are no longer white let alone emeshed in the debate over st patrick. i note thast the oldest irish bar in toronto still fles a st pats team flag, a tricouleur, a a starry plow flag and a st patrick cross. covering most of the bases. here in moncton the old irish bar has a tricouleur and a red hand of ulster flag--really trying for all the bases. i'm a montreal canadiens fan so i never really cared about the leafs, but i like to see the st pats uniform displayed on st paddy's day. almost half the ppulation of ontario have irish ancestry back there somewhere. the majority from the great hunger emmingration. they arrived diseased dying and starved, and they survived the worst life can deal out and helped build a nation. thomas d'arcy macgee was a fenian who came to canada and became one of our most prominemt fathers of confederation. (and the irish make up a third of the quececois ancestry--they sent their children to catholic schools so they spoke french withoin a generation, but its no accident that mulroney, johnson, wagner, malone, are prominent "french" names in quebec. ) and down in acadie where i live the acadiens are thought to be half celtic--both scotts gaelc, bretons and irish--with a broad dash of native and french--of course. at the world celtic conference in france a few years ago therte was an acadien table as a recognozed celtic group, so erin go breagh and je me souviens--eh! |
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21 Mar 11 - 09:27 PM (#3118686) Subject: RE: BS: St. Patricks Flag From: Tattie Bogle Let's just be clear which flag we are talking about! Like Dave Mckenzie, i was taught (in the Guides, not Scouts!) that St Patrick's flag was a red DIAGONAL cross on a white background, and as he says, forms that part of the Union flag. However, my Northern Irish brother-in-law insisted that i was wrong, and that it was a red horizontal/vertical cross on a white background (like St George's flag) with hand in the middle: is that not the Ulster flag? See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_flags_issue |
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22 Mar 11 - 04:09 AM (#3118783) Subject: RE: BS: St. Patricks Flag From: Keith A of Hertford He is wrong Tattie. Paddy's cross is a red diagonal on white. That is the one referred to in my OP. |
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22 Mar 11 - 05:39 AM (#3118821) Subject: RE: BS: St. Patricks Flag From: gnomad Re cross vertical or diagonal, flag terminology derives from that pertaining to shields, and thus historically from Norman French. A cross with vertical plus horizontal arms is referred to as a cross. Rotated to diagonals it becomes a saltire, thus the flag of St Patrick would be blazoned "argent, a saltire gules". The Scottish use of the same symbol, but differently coloured, is very well known, so much so that many believe that many mistakenly believe that theirs is the only saltire around. |
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22 Mar 11 - 05:52 AM (#3118823) Subject: RE: BS: St. Patricks Flag From: Keith A of Hertford That would be Andrew's cross. St. Andrew was martyred by crucifiction on a diagonal cross. Some say St. Patrick should not have a flag because he was not martyred. |
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22 Mar 11 - 08:30 AM (#3118906) Subject: RE: BS: St. Patricks Flag From: Les from Hull What is now known as St Patrick's flag (argent a saltire gules) has been in use as an Irish flag for many years before it was incorporated into the Union Flag in 1801, but not universally. In order to give Scotland precedence over Ireland in the Union Flag the saltire of the 'St Patrick's Cross' were counterchanged as Scotland was in the Union earlier. It is wrongly considered that this was to allow the Union Flag to be flown upside down at sea as a sign of distress, but the Union Flag is not used in this way. I'll get me anorak! |
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22 Mar 11 - 03:39 PM (#3119218) Subject: RE: BS: St. Patricks Flag From: Tattie Bogle Keith A : I knew he was wrong, but you try telling him! |