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01 Apr 11 - 02:29 PM (#3126403) Subject: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: GUEST,John MacKenzie Yet another loud mouth, show off, know nothing religious bigot has stirred up Muslim sentiment, and caused the death of at least 8 people. A pastor at a church in Florida, burned a copy of the Koran, after a show trial, which found the book, guilty! (Of what?) Today a mob attacked a UN building in Mazar-e Sharif, following Friday prayers. People were dragged out, stabbed, and there are reports od the beheading of at least 2 UN workers. The prick pastor in Florida, should be tried for murder. |
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01 Apr 11 - 02:38 PM (#3126408) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: MGM·Lion Should he? He was a "prick", indeed; and asking for trouble ~ indeed dekiberately out to foment it ~ as he must have known what the likely result would be somewhere in the Muslim world; & so, as you say, it was... Nevertheless, John; if you had heard that a New Testament had been burned in Riyadh or Amman, would your response to be to get all your friends together after next Sunday's Communion to attack a Muslim organisation's HQ wherever you are {London? NY?}, and behead some of those therein just for being there? I doubt it somehow... ~Michael~ |
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01 Apr 11 - 02:46 PM (#3126413) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: gnu John is in Scotland and I agree with his anger. Except for the "prick" part. That pastor is clearly a bigot and an idiot. Pricks are useful... the pastor is useless crap. |
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01 Apr 11 - 03:01 PM (#3126429) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Jim Carroll "Nevertheless, John; if you had heard that a New Testament had been burned in Riyadh or Amman, would your response to be to get all your friends together after next Sunday's Communion to attack a Muslim organisation's HQ wherever you are {London? NY?}, and behead some of those therein just for being there?" Up till recently I would have been surpised - now I am just saddened and and a little sickened - wasn't it you who told me that one evil does not excuse or cancel out another? I'm really not surprised that you quite the other thread, Your protegé has really got the bit between his teeth now - at least another page of cut-'n-pastes to add to the six, and he hasn't got started yet! Jim Carroll |
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01 Apr 11 - 03:01 PM (#3126430) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: GUEST,John MacKenzie Michael, you know full well that burning the bible would not cause such a reaction in the west, nor should it. When you know with almost 100% certainty what the reaction will be against the burning of the Koran, you don't do it. You may tease a pussycat, but try the same trick with a tiger, and see where it gets you. Yes I know it appears to be an over reaction, but it was predictable over reaction, and a very stupid thing to provoke. |
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01 Apr 11 - 03:49 PM (#3126463) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: MGM·Lion Jim ~~ you have not responded on that other thread to my pointing out a serious misinterpretation of something I posted there, where you got hold of the completely wrong end of an important stick. ~M~ John ~~ yes, I take that point well on board. But there was an odd tone to your OP, not only of what was obviously going to be the response; but that it was fully justified & the right thing for that mob to attack at random a western embassy thousands of miles from the original provocation & behead people with diplomatic immunity. That was OK by you, was it? ~M~ |
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01 Apr 11 - 03:54 PM (#3126469) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: GUEST,John MacKenzie Sorry mate, but you're reading a different post to the one I made. 'Cos I never condoned any of the actions, neither the original action, nor yet the reaction. |
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01 Apr 11 - 03:58 PM (#3126474) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: gnu "not only of what was obviously going to be the response; but that it was fully justified & the right thing for that mob to attack at random a western embassy thousands of miles from the original provocation & behead people with diplomatic immunity. That was OK by you, was it?" Give yer head a shake and see if it rattles. That is putting words in John's mouth and it is absurd and unacceptable... indeed, reprehensible! I must take leave of this thread if it's going to be subjugated to such inane bullshit and twisting of words in a trolling manner. gnightgnu |
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01 Apr 11 - 04:17 PM (#3126492) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Jim Carroll Sorry Mike - I have no idea to what you're freferring , but that doesn't make your present stance any less saddening and sickening Jim Carroll |
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01 Apr 11 - 04:24 PM (#3126497) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: GUEST,999 Seems some folks expect reason from extremists. Extremists don`t need the adjectives (Muslim, Zionist, religious, etc.). They just need the excuse. Two wrongs don`t make a right, but burning a book--and it is wrong, imo--doesn`t deserve that kind of response. Fuck people who do that, and they`ll stop doing it. Reason won`t work. So, what are the alternatives (qm). |
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01 Apr 11 - 04:53 PM (#3126508) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Dave the Gnome The prick pastor in Florida, should be tried for murder. No he shouldn't. Prick he may be. Idiot he certainly is. But his actions, believe it or not, were those of someone practicing freedom of speech. It is the extremists who's reaction led to innocent peoples deaths that should be tried for murder. Sorry, but following your reasoning, John, every over zelous pastor, priest, immam or rabbi who preaches that thier religion is best should be tried for murder. Maybe they should. Or, just maybe, it is the idiots who believe them that should have the attitude adjustment? DeG |
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01 Apr 11 - 04:55 PM (#3126511) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: akenaton Well said guest......straight as a die as usual my friend! |
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01 Apr 11 - 05:09 PM (#3126523) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: MGM·Lion 'Sorry Mike - I have no idea to what you're freferring , Jim Carroll' ··· Why, to my having quoted Shakespeare & saying one could always find the right words in his works; which you most peculiarly took as saying that one could find the right words in Keith's posts: I cannot imagine where you got that from, Jim. Sorry. Here is your post, pasting some of mine & then grossly misinterpreting it ~ "...you can always find the right words in his works somewhere" And that is a shameful cop-out - that is what he said, that is what he meant - and that is what I object to." --- I had made if quite clear it was Shax I was referring to. -- "Indeed, Jim. I remarked a little earlier, quoting Will Shaxpere on another thread, that you can always find the right words in his works somewhere ~~ so I now cry Hold! Enough!" -- You really cocked up in taking that in any way to refer to Keith, Jim; & have since built up a peculiar head of 'attitude' due to this outrageous solecism on your part. I really think an apology would be in order, either here or on that thread. & then kindly get your temper back & climb down off my back, if you would be so good. Best ~M~ |
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01 Apr 11 - 05:47 PM (#3126551) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Greg F. . But his actions, believe it or not, were those of someone practicing freedom of speech. HOWEVER just because some egregious asshole CAN do something, it doesn't follows that he SHOULD do it. One would expect a certain amount of reason and intelligence applied to the situation --- or not, in which case he should be tried for felony stupidity. The pastor {sic- real "christian", no?) should be held responsible for the inevitable & totally forseeable result of his moronic actions. Same damn thing as shouting "fire" in a crowded theater. Fu$k him. |
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01 Apr 11 - 06:20 PM (#3126570) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Keith A of Hertford From the other prejudice thread. Ans another pearl of Keith's wisdom on Moslem culture from the 'Burning Korans thread "Other religions would just shrug off such an insult. They will kill people. That is the real problem." Jim Carroll |
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01 Apr 11 - 06:31 PM (#3126580) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: GUEST "inevitable"? Really! Perhaps so, 'they' are all barbarians of course... |
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01 Apr 11 - 07:46 PM (#3126615) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: GUEST,999 Fundamentalists of this world have become the scourge of the planet, be they of the Christian, Muslim or Jewish variety. I have no use for any of the motherfuckers. Bastards all. Begat on duchesses by headwaiters, the lot of them. They hear voices from the heavens or their respective pulpits, and imo the world would be better off if they simply dropped dead and went to meet their makers. The sooner the better. |
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02 Apr 11 - 03:00 AM (#3126742) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Jim Carroll Sorry Mike, I did mistake what you were referring to; I did misunderstand what you said (my Shakespeare has always been uneven), and I did accuse you of something that you were in no way guilty of. I, of course withdraw any unjust accusations I have made and apologise, and have done so on the other thread. Jim Carroll |
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02 Apr 11 - 03:40 AM (#3126753) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: MGM·Lion Many thanks, Jim. Apology instantly accepted of course. Back, please to square 1! Same to be posted on other thread... |
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02 Apr 11 - 03:48 AM (#3126756) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Dave the Gnome should be held responsible for the inevitable & totally forseeable result of his moronic actions. So those who murdered other people because of what the pastor did are justifiedt? It was inevitable that they went out as a violent mob and killed innocent people because some idiot burned a book? And it's nothing at all like shouting fire in a crowded theatre. In that case the people in the theatre are directly threatened and act accordingly. If an immam across the other side of the world decided to burn a bible - how does that threaten me? Or would I be then justified, by your reasoning, to go and behead a few Muslims? Sorry, but tollerance has to work both ways or not at all. DeG |
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02 Apr 11 - 03:55 AM (#3126759) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: akenaton On the button Dave! |
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02 Apr 11 - 04:00 AM (#3126765) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Silas This pastor, this 'man of god' should be ashamed of himself (though he clearly is not). If ther eis no law against inciting international hatret, there should be and he should be tried for it. The actions against the UN staff were unforgiveable, but, sadly, predictable. I thought book burning died out at the end of 1945. |
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02 Apr 11 - 04:23 AM (#3126772) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: GUEST,999 "2001: The U.S.A. PATRIOT Act, passed by the American Congress in response to terrorist attacks on New York and Washington on September 11, gave the FBI power to collect information about the library borrowings of any U.S. citizen. The act also empowered the federal agency to gain access to library patrons' log-ons to Internet Web sites—and protected the FBI from disclosing the identities of individuals being investigated." |
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02 Apr 11 - 04:30 AM (#3126774) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Lizzie Cornish 1 "Fundamentalists of this world have become the scourge of the planet, be they of the Christian, Muslim or Jewish variety. I have no use for any of the motherfuckers. Bastards all. Begat on duchesses by headwaiters, the lot of them. They hear voices from the heavens or their respective pulpits, and imo the world would be better off if they simply dropped dead and went to meet their makers. The sooner the better. " I am in complete and absolute agreement with that statement. The 'New World Order' should bring in the 'Incitement to Religious Hatred' laws that we now have over here in the UK, around the world. ANYONE who burns a Holy Book of any Denomination should be brought to trial and sentenced accordingly. Incitement to Hatred, if brought in all around the world, not just religious hatred, but any hatred, would of course remove the need for War, so I guess that's never going to happen, as so many people make mega amounts of money from that occupation, but heyho, at least the reglious bit would be a beginning... |
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02 Apr 11 - 04:33 AM (#3126776) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: akenaton Silas.....In all probability, these are the people we are supporting and protecting in Libya. Have we learned nothing from our disgraceful previous adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan? Christianity, except for a few idiots is a tolerant religion. Islam, as practiced in North Africa and the Middle East is extremely intolerant, to the point of madness. That is the difference. |
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02 Apr 11 - 04:39 AM (#3126781) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Silas akenaton - once again uninformed drivel. |
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02 Apr 11 - 06:03 AM (#3126811) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: GUEST,999 Of more concern to me, frankly, is that most so-called Christians have never read books they want to ban/burn. Banning and burning are kissing cousins. I have a basic distrust of books that are prompted by writers' individual talks with The Creator. That distrust extends to The Book of Mormon, The Koran, The Bible. At various times I have had discussions with proponents of each and always come away wondering what kind of dope they were smoking. I dislike fanatics regardless their religious affiliation. A LDS pair and I got into it with the "it was revealed" horse shit. I ended that conversation a while later by saying, "It was just revealed to me that you're wasting my time. Have a nice evening." Truthfully, I was more POed that some 'elder' (who was about twenty-five years old) thought me stupid enough to buy into that stuff. A doctor I knew who was educated in Egypt told me why Muslims didn't eat pork. I asked why, if The Creator really meant it, He allowed it under certain circumstance, such as mentioned at the end of passage 5:4 in his holy book. What I got back was "Who are we to question the will of The Creator (he said Allah)?" He had me there. Observant Jews will not eat pork (Leviticus and Deuteronomy (and Genesis)), but some stretch it by eating in restaurants that aren't kosher. A Jewish friend and I got into that! And of course the Christians who are equally restricted by their holy book can rationalize it all so blithely by cherry picking: "Well, God meant the Jews, not US." I don't really think that people who follow religions do so because they are evil, but some religious leaders are evil personified, and if in our ignorance we follow them, we in turn become evil. Such as those who listen to and believe the words of people like 'Pastors' Wayne Sapp and Terry Jones. The dumb shits in Afghanistan and Pakistan should take out their wrath on them. Talk about stupid, and talk about evil! imo |
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02 Apr 11 - 06:41 AM (#3126820) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Jim Carroll "Christianity, except for a few idiots is a tolerant religion." In the Middle ages the Catholic Church extablished 'the Index Librorum Prohibitorum' a list of banned books. The Liborum lasted till 1966. I remember my father taking great delight in recommending one of the great classics of Irish literature, 'The Tailor and Ansty', which remained banned until the list until was abolished. I believe that a Catholic marrying a non Catholic but wishing to marry in church has to agree to any children of the union being brought up Catholic. All religions, given the opportunity, are capable of abusing power. Can anybody confirm that it is prohibited for guides at the Grand Canyon to discuss its age for fear of giving offence to Creationists? Jim Carroll |
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02 Apr 11 - 10:54 AM (#3126923) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: pdq Too many people simply do not understand what "freedom of speech" is. The only "crime" that the pastor could have committed by burning a Koran would come from not having a burning permit, if that was required. Also, if the book did not belong to him and he did not have permission to burn it. The pastor committed a violent act against a pile of cellulose, nothing more. To commit violent acts against people (murder!) in response is an insane act by brainwashed thugs. |
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02 Apr 11 - 10:56 AM (#3126925) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Dave the Gnome If ther eis no law against inciting international hatret, there should be and he should be tried for it. I agree entirely, Silas. There should be a law against inciting any sort of hatred but I fail to see how burning a book can be called incitement to hatred. It is a book for heavens sake. It is an inanimate object, made of paper and ink. It is the message that is important and if that message cannot survive the without paper and ink, it is not worth keeping. Oh, and can anyone tell me if is, or ever was, a criminal offence to burn the old 'Star Spangled Banner'? DeG |
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02 Apr 11 - 10:56 AM (#3126926) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Silas pdq, are you being serious? |
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02 Apr 11 - 11:02 AM (#3126929) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Silas No, sorry, it is much more than a book. I am not a person of faith, but I can see that this act was a deliberate attempt to insult a major religion, and was done with the intention of causing gross offense to people who have deeply held religious views. If you stick your arm into a tigers cage, don't be surprised if he bites it off, he knows no better, but you do. |
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02 Apr 11 - 01:36 PM (#3127018) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Greg F. So those who murdered other people because of what the pastor did are justifiedt? Get a grip, Dave, or at least learn to read the English language for comprehension. By what tortured logic and/or idiocy did you derive that statement from what I posted? pastor committed a violent act against a pile of cellulose, nothing more PeeDee, if you actually believe this crap, and are just not winding people up, you are worse than an idiot. |
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02 Apr 11 - 01:59 PM (#3127031) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: MGM·Lion "If you stick your arm into a tigers cage, don't be surprised if he bites it off, he knows no better, but you do." ============ Are we to take it from this, Silas, that you think Islamists are the equivalent of dumb beasts and "know no better"? Or what is your point? ~M~ |
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02 Apr 11 - 02:23 PM (#3127046) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Backwoodsman "If you stick your arm into a tigers cage, don't be surprised if he bites it off, he knows no better, but you do." Unfortunately, in this case the tiger, having been made mad by those who controlled and brainwashed it, bit off heads, not arms - heads of innocent people who weren't even there when the arm was stuck into its cage. I could understand it if they had attacked and beheaded Pastor Jones (understood, but not condoned). But I cannot fathom what was in their heads when they attacked and beheaded completely innocent people just because those people were different from them and, unlike Pastor Jones, were available. |
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02 Apr 11 - 02:32 PM (#3127058) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Ed T I believe putting people in danger, knowingly and "without justification", is illegal in most, if not all, USA states. I would suspect that this action (the burning one) could be protected under freedom of expression or freedom of speech. But, these mostly pertain to actions that do not endanger others. Could this activity go beyond the rights guaranteed by free speech, such as reckless or malicious actions, or an action whose outcomes are blatantly obvious? It is possible that it could be listed under "Reckless Endangerment", an action intentionally, knowingly and reasonably be seen as endangering the lives or safety of others, or directed to and likely to incite imminent lawless action. Is it not like falsely yelling "FIRE!" in a crowd that could put people at risk, and could get you arrested? Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_a_person_be_prosecuted_for_yelling_fire_in_a_crowded_building_when_there_is_no_fire#ixzz1IOI2fMlP |
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02 Apr 11 - 02:45 PM (#3127066) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Keith A of Hertford What about the Danish cartoonist? Also guilty of recklessly endangering lives? Many died. Salman Rushdie, for writing a book, not burning it? His book was burned in piles and people died. Guilty? |
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02 Apr 11 - 03:21 PM (#3127089) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Dave the Gnome Get a grip, Dave, or at least learn to read the English language for comprehension. By what tortured logic and/or idiocy did you derive that statement from what I posted? And I suppose that your statement is meant to engender reasoned debate and cordial conversation, Greg? :-) Surely by the use of such confrontational language you are no less guilty of inciting hatred than the pastor himself. In fact, I feel so offended I think I will go and behead of few Gregs of my aquaintance... OK, I admit that the justification theme was somewhat factuous. Made to illustrate the point that it was the mob who killed innocent people, not the pastor. The point still stands though. You state quite clearly that the pastor should be held responsible. Tell us, please, responsible for what? Responible for the deaths of innocent people? Responsible for creating a mob of unruly, violent idiots? Surely then, if he is responsible for that, then you will be responsible for anything that I do in my anger at your intimation that my understanding of the English language is somewhat less than yours. In fact, you now owe me a bottle of Gavi and whatever inroads I make into the Famous Grouse to get over my upset. My lawyers will be in touch and I suggest that it is you who needs to 'get a grip'. Whatever that may mean. DeG |
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02 Apr 11 - 03:39 PM (#3127100) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Greg F. Surely by the use of such confrontational language you are no less guilty of inciting hatred than the pastor himself. OK then Dave: Fuck off. |
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02 Apr 11 - 03:44 PM (#3127104) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: pdq " In fact, I feel so offended I think I will go and behead of few Gregs of my aquaintance..." ~ Dave the Gnome As you can see, that would be pointless with the actual Mudcat pest of which you speak. That he/she/it is already acephalous. |
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02 Apr 11 - 04:01 PM (#3127115) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Dave the Gnome Is that supposed to be offensive, Greg? Surely you can do better. Wanker. :D |
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02 Apr 11 - 04:05 PM (#3127123) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Dave the Gnome BTW - Nice one. pdq. I wouldn't have known what acephalous meant until you said it but it is a far better insult than my feable attempt :-) D. |
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02 Apr 11 - 04:47 PM (#3127148) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Greg F. OK then, PeeDee, also fuck off. |
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02 Apr 11 - 05:37 PM (#3127165) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: GUEST,999 Just so's everyone's gettin' along . . . |
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02 Apr 11 - 05:43 PM (#3127170) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Stringsinger Trying to isolate the actions of a group of fanatics as representative of Muslims world-wide is like blaming the downing of passenger airlines on birds. There are fanatics in the U.S. who belong to certain Neo-Nazi, militia groups, skinheads and fundamentalist nut-cases who could it they weren't held back could match the crazies in Afghanistan. What Terry Jones did was psychotic and engendered a reaction by psychotics. To blame this on Islam is particularly nutty. |
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02 Apr 11 - 05:45 PM (#3127171) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Keith A of Hertford Was the Danish cartoonist psychotic? Salman Rushdie? People died because of them. |
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02 Apr 11 - 05:58 PM (#3127178) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: bobad The logic going down in this thread is very strange. You mean to tell me that if a Muslim fanatic in Afghanistan should burn a bible and some equally fanatic Christian in the US kills and beheads a few Muslims because of that then the Muslim is responsible? The mind boggles. |
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02 Apr 11 - 06:23 PM (#3127188) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Jeri Irony. Non-Muslim prejudice is evidenced by Muslims killing people because they feel insulted? That's the problem with the Muslim extremists in the first place. That "I cut off my sister's ear because she said my shoes were ugly" (she MADE me do it) garbage didn't get us out of trouble when we were kids. It doesn't work with most justice systems I can think of, and the idea that it would is ludicrous. The prick in Florida was, and is, a prick, but he's not guilty of what others do. If we in the US can burn flags and books of all sorts, if ass-hats on Fox news can constantly denigrate our President, and if we can demonstrate against government policies IN government buildings, a prick burning a Koran is within his rights. After all, he didn't cut off anybody's head. I DO hope karma gets him, though. |
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02 Apr 11 - 07:47 PM (#3127227) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: GUEST,999 49 |
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02 Apr 11 - 07:48 PM (#3127228) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: GUEST,999 50 |
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02 Apr 11 - 08:54 PM (#3127257) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: GUEST,Alan Whittle Theres no point in pretending these countries which have no history or tradition of liberal or public education are going to behave like an educated population. If sociology were as established and and accepted a science as chemistry, this guy is like the idiot who pours water onto concentrated acid. The results of his actions are just as predictably destructive. there should be some way of sanctioning a man who ignores advice and is so reckless with human life. |
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03 Apr 11 - 01:04 AM (#3127331) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: MGM·Lion ---Trying to isolate the actions of a group of fanatics as representative of Muslims world-wide is like blaming the downing of passenger airlines on birds.--- ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, This strand of Islam ~ the 'militant Islamist', so-called ~ is indeed a comparatively small segment of worldwide Islam (tho it would be hard to assess how much its aims and methods are, secretly or not-so-secretly, admired or supported or sympathised with by other Muslims worldwide}; but their influence, and worldwide effects, and profile generally are obviously disproportionate to their numbers. Otherwise the Twin Towers would still be standing, and that editor of Rushdie's would still be alive, and those tube trains & that London bus would still be running. And it is their high-profile example and success in continuing to keep us all twitchy and nervy and apprehensive and looking over our shoulders all the time which will have inspired this latest enormity in response to the - undeniably idiotic - provocation of the Koran-burning. So the birds/airliners analogy won't really wash, will it, in regard to this small but powerful segment of Islam whose universal effect & overall influence is so disproportionate to their actual number? ~Michael~ |
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03 Apr 11 - 01:06 AM (#3127332) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Backwoodsman He's either (a) a publicity-seeking fuckwit or, (b) an extremely dangerous man. I'm not sure which, other than to say that anyone with more than a single functioning brain-cell must realise that deliberately and publically 'insulting' a religion which, everyone knows, is on a very short fuse indeed, is a very dangerous thing to do and will result in a rapid and disproportionate response from its followers. The comparison of that response to the likely reaction of Christians to the hypothetical burning of a Bible doesn't hold water in today's world - Christianity is a comparatively mature religion in comparison with Islam and, generally speaking, its teachings and the attitudes of its followers, not to mention its political intentions and methods, have matured too - sufficiently such that it can turn a blind eye to such provocation, shrug its collective shoulders and say, "Ho-hum". But if we go back a few hundred years that certainly was not the case and Christians' behaviour towards non-Christians, or even towards fellow Christians who were felt not to be "Christian enough", was just as reactive and bloodthirsty as anything we see today from the extreme elements within Islam (who, undoubtedly, were influencing, if not controlling, the actions of the protesters and beheaders in Afghanistan). So maybe its best all round if "Christians" like Pastor Jones remember the message in Matthew 7:3 - "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?", and STFU. Thankfully, Pastor Jones is not typical of Christians, at least of the Christians I know. And in writing this, I've reached the conclusion that he's both (a) and (b) - he's a Very Dangerous, Publicity-Seeking Fuckwit. Disclaimers - IMHO, YMMV etc. |
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03 Apr 11 - 01:09 AM (#3127333) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Backwoodsman Sorry Mike, posted at the same time, but in agreement. |
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03 Apr 11 - 05:24 AM (#3127408) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Silas "If you stick your arm into a tigers cage, don't be surprised if he bites it off, he knows no better, but you do." ============ Are we to take it from this, Silas, that you think Islamists are the equivalent of dumb beasts and "know no better"? Or what is your point? ~M~ I think these people are no better or worse that the Christians of the 12/13c and even later. "Dumb Beasts" is not a phrase that I would have used, but it is fairly appropriate. |
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03 Apr 11 - 05:59 AM (#3127429) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Dave the Gnome I don't think Jones is stupid (if that is what fuckwit means?) at all. He is definitely publicity seeking but he is, in my opnion, probably smart enough to realise the consequences of his actions. It is the mob that reacted in such a way that are short on the old grey matter. That being said leads me to believe that he is responsible for inciting hatred but he is still not guilty of murder. In the UK we do indeed have laws against such incitement. Maybe it is time there was a worldide panel to judge these things and the penalties should be high enough to be meaningful. However. Does anyone seriously believe that such laws would stop the right wing press from their incidious war against Islam? Would such laws stop the gun-waving, shoe-throwing idiots in the middle east we see on the news most days? I suspect not. But if they did stop tossers like Jones and, just maybe, save a couple of lives they would be worthwhile. Trouble is, of course, that if the right wing Christians were jumped upon from a great height while the mad Immams of the east get away with burning whatever they like with impunity the afore mentioned right wing press would definitely have a field day. In other words - we can't win:-( DeG |
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03 Apr 11 - 06:17 AM (#3127452) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: MGM·Lion I suspect the last 3 words of your post are probably only too literally true, DeG. I feel quite pleased, on the whole, that I shall be 80 next year, & probably shan't last long enough to see the lovely all-arse·in·the·air·forehead·on·ground·knocking, all-adultress·stoning, all thief·amputating, all-tergiversator-beheading, all-wine·sipper·flogging world which will be here in not too many years time when the you-know-whos are in charge... ~Michael~ |
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03 Apr 11 - 02:34 PM (#3127774) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Stringsinger "Christianity is a comparatively mature religion in comparison with Islam " Who says? It is historically grossly unjust. Historically, Islam was more of an accepting religion of other religions. In early Byzantine times, Jews were accepted although made to pay taxes. Christians burned those who disagreed with them. Why should anything be different today? There are some in religions who are crazy and some not. You think Terry Jones is mature? He says he's a Christian. Prove that he isn't. Do you dare to say that you know all about Islam to make this ludicrous judgement? A holy book is subject to cherry-picking and interpretation and only the Islamic crazies get publicized on Christian dominated Media. Ignorance is riding roughshod over thoughtful analysis, these days. |
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03 Apr 11 - 02:56 PM (#3127787) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: McGrath of Harlow "Pastor" Jones was pretty clearly hoping to get this kind of reaction when he burnt the book, and he succeeded. Shouting "Fire" in a crowded theatre is generally given as a case where an absolute "freedom of speech" ceases to apply, and this should be recognised as a similar case. |
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03 Apr 11 - 06:08 PM (#3127884) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: GUEST,Dave the gnome sans biscuit for some reason. "Christianity is a comparatively mature religion in comparison with Islam " Who says? It is historically grossly unjust. Do you mean who says that Christianity is more mature than Islam? Duuuh - Most historians ascribe the beginning of Islam during the lifetime of the Prophet Mohammed who lived during the 6th and 7th Centuries, from 570 to 632 A.D. If you can't figure that out, this makes christianty around 500 years older than islam. Which I think pretty much answers your question. If however, you are saying that maturity does not equate to age then please give us an example of what you mean by maturity. Is it no longer stoning the alduteress to death while the aldulterer goes free? Or maybe it is not allowing half the population basic freedom? If that is being more mature than I thank whatever powers there happen to be that I am still in the sandbox. D. |
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04 Apr 11 - 07:55 AM (#3128179) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Green Man The incident in question highlights the cultural difference between the west and east. In the light of the Koran those people are guilty of murder and will be damned for eternity. The problems between non Muslims and Muslims vary greatly depending on which way the followers of Islam interpret the book. While followers of Islam believe that the book is the word of the one true God they rely on men to interpret it and we have seen the path that that leads down. I am not a Christian, neither am I a Muslim although my own moral code and sense of right and wrong, justice and injustice largely follow the tenets of both faiths. I believe in punishment. The perpetrators shoud be found tried and serve the sentence imposed on them. Until a religion actually follows the rules laid down in the relevant book, they will remain irrelevent to me and I suspect many other people. GM |
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04 Apr 11 - 08:19 AM (#3128186) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Backwoodsman "Ignorance is riding roughshod over thoughtful analysis, these days. So your idea of 'thoughtful analysis' is to simply rubbish something that someone else has actually thought carefully about? Mmmmm. Hardly the way to encourage reasoned debate. Sorry buddy, you'll have to find another victim. I think DeG summed it up nicely, thanks Dave. Now I'm off, and leave Stringsinger to pursue his thoughtful analysis. |
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04 Apr 11 - 08:59 AM (#3128199) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Backwoodsman But before I do go, and to answer Stringsinger's scathing comments, my meaning was perfectly clear to anyone with half-decent English comprehension skills, and I didn't think it would be necessary to spell it out in words of one syllable or less - Christianity is a much older religion than Islam, and five hundred or so years ago Christians behaved in much the same way as Islamic extremists are wont to do nowadays, in that they persecuted, tortured, and killed anyone who was not 'of the faith' or who committed heresy, or any one of a range of 'crimes' against God. They burned heretics at the stake, they drowned 'witches', they killed Catholics for not being Anglicans.......amongst many other things. Today, the Christian Religion is far from being perfect, but it has matured to a point where it doesn't generally react in such a savage way. And the crux of the point I was making, Stringsinger, is that, given time, it may well be that Islam will follow the same route, insha'Allah. Until such time, it would behove Christians like Pastor Jones to be mindful of Christianity's past, and think very hard before insulting a religion which hasn't yet had the time, or the inspiration, to reach a point where it feels secure and mature enough to eschew violent reaction to each and every slight. |
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04 Apr 11 - 09:07 AM (#3128205) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Green Man Backwoodsman, A measured and thoughtful response. I have to agree with you. GM |
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04 Apr 11 - 10:13 AM (#3128234) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Greg F. Christians like Pastor Jones NOT. |
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04 Apr 11 - 10:32 AM (#3128250) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Keith A of Hertford Muslims regard it as insulting to suggest that their faith is in any sense backward. |
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04 Apr 11 - 10:51 AM (#3128261) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Backwoodsman "Muslims regard it as insulting to suggest that their faith is in any sense backward." And they are perfectly within their rights. The purpose of this thread however is, unless I've misread, a discussion on deliberate insults and the reaction to them. |
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04 Apr 11 - 10:54 AM (#3128265) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Greg F. Kinda like Christians, Hindus. Seventh Day Adventists, Jains, Rastafarians, Pastafarians, athiests & all the rest, eh, Keith? - you old bigot, you. |
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04 Apr 11 - 10:57 AM (#3128271) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Backwoodsman GregF - "Christians like Pastor Jones NOT." I have no way of knowing whether he's a Christian in the true sense of the word or not - I've never met the guy. He professes Christianity, but I agree that, on the basis of his widely publicised views and his behaviour in recent times, he doesn't give the appearance of being a particularly good Christian. However, as I have nothing more to judge him on, and until he proves beyond doubt otherwise, I have to give him the benefit of the doubt. |
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04 Apr 11 - 11:13 AM (#3128285) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Greg F. No way to judge? That's a joke, right? See Matthew 7:16-20. "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." The judgement is in. |
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04 Apr 11 - 11:19 AM (#3128290) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Backwoodsman Greg, I haven't been aggressive towards you, I've responded quietly and reasonably. If you wish to have a discourse with me, please check the attitude at the door. Otherwise, you'll have to find another victim, buddy. |
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04 Apr 11 - 11:23 AM (#3128296) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Silas "Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." Hmmm... |
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04 Apr 11 - 11:25 AM (#3128299) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Greg F. Who are you accusing of being aggressive? Me, Saint Matthew or Jesus? OK, then, under what circumstances would you NOT give him the benefit of the doubt? Would he need to rape, murder & mutilate someone? |
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04 Apr 11 - 11:26 AM (#3128301) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Silas FFS you two, this has been a great thread up to now, don't spoil it by this bickering. |
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04 Apr 11 - 11:28 AM (#3128304) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Greg F. I'm not "bickering" Silas, I think I raise a valid point about precisely what does one have to do in order to not be given the "benefit of the doubt" re: being a "Christian". Seems the teachings of Christ are pretty clear on the issue. |
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04 Apr 11 - 11:34 AM (#3128309) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Silas OK Greg, but Christ is far from clear to me! The quotaion from the bible seems to say that 'bad trees' should be burnt to death, yet elsewhere it is all about forgveness etc.... |
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04 Apr 11 - 11:54 AM (#3128329) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Greg F. Allegory, Silas. |
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04 Apr 11 - 11:54 AM (#3128330) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Backwoodsman Greg, I don't have to take your attitude. Civility and politeness cost nothing. I'll discuss. I won't fight. If that means you won, laugh it up. Find another victim. I've gone. |
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04 Apr 11 - 12:00 PM (#3128335) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Greg F. My "attitude", Woods? Being straightfowaard & not mealy-mouthedr isn't an "attitude", its honesty. My questions were simple enough. You don't care to answer them, don't put it on me. You want to play the "victim"? - knock yourself out. But either way, no skin off my arse. Don't let the door & etc. |
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04 Apr 11 - 12:02 PM (#3128339) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Silas One mans allegory is another mans literal truth (unfortunatly)- hence the reason for this thread. |
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04 Apr 11 - 12:17 PM (#3128350) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Greg F. Tree ≠ Person |
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04 Apr 11 - 12:22 PM (#3128357) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Silas Allegory, Greg, allegory. |
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04 Apr 11 - 12:37 PM (#3128362) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Greg F. Hey, you want to believe that Matthew/Jesus are talking about literally chopping people up, be my guest. For verily I say unto you that whilst one man's allegory may be another man's literal truth, surely it follows as the night follows the day that one man's delusion may take the place of reality. |
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04 Apr 11 - 01:50 PM (#3128405) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: GUEST,Alan Whittle Well he's God. he designed a world where people do quite regularly get chopped up. Perhaps its you Greg that credits JC with a bit more decency than he actually has. Even God's biggest fans would have to admit that on occasions, he acts like a real shit. |
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04 Apr 11 - 02:08 PM (#3128415) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Greg F. As I mentioned elsewhere, see Randy Newman's That's Why I Love Mankind |
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04 Apr 11 - 11:23 PM (#3128691) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: LadyJean It occurred to me: I wasted two years of my precious youth at a small denominational college in Kentucky. I wasted one evening of those two years at a Christian coffee house, listening to inane music and pious platitudes. Among those platitudes was the tale of some church in some small town that was converting sinners right and left. "Of course SOMEBODY was going to do something about that." the party telling the story said. So, one day the congregation found a Bible burning on the church porch. They saw it as a testimony to the power of God's word, and were rather proud that somebody had been so afraid of the Bible that they burned it. It's a different take on the situation. |
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05 Apr 11 - 04:52 AM (#3128793) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Musket Akenaton wrote "Christianity, except for a few idiots is a tolerant religion. Islam, as practiced in North Africa and the Middle East is extremely intolerant, to the point of madness." If you put, "Islam, except for a few idiots is a tolerant religion" or pointed out that Christianity as practiced in a few churches in The USA is extremely intolerant to the point of madness, I may have accepted your comments at face value. Methinks "as practiced" is the key to it all. I have friends and colleagues who are Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindu and like me, totally without any religious belief. We all get on with each other. At a BBQ my wife and I put on for friends last year, I had my main BBQ and two small ones. One for cooking veggie kebabs, mushrooms etc and other other small one for friends who brought their own lamb and chicken. It cooked both halal and kosher that day. I have been given a copy of the Q'ran as a present, and we still have my wife's bible she was given by her parents when a child. They sit side by side in a book case. Ok, never opened, never read, but their value is that of a gift. Her brother, who is a devout Christian, (whatever that means) said it was wrong to put them together and we should get rid of The Q'ran. And that sums up for me why I have no religious conviction whatsoever. Our friend Yasim was not trying to convert us, (how can you convert if you don't belong to a previous club?) but offering something from his culture as a gift to us. If a Christian friend gave us a bible, it would sit in the same place. Never opened, but as a reminder when you glance of the fact we have friends who gave us a gift. That for me sums up the mainstream of most people who profess a faith. Those on the fringes are using rather than professing their religion. The ignorant masses who are rioting are showing their lack of access to education rather than making a value stance. |
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05 Apr 11 - 05:28 AM (#3128806) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: McGrath of Harlow How does a rather odd comment about your bookshelf arrangements by an individual who happens to be your brother-in-law "sum up the mainstream of most people who profess a faith", Ian ? |
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05 Apr 11 - 09:22 AM (#3128960) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Musket Rather succinctly. He feels, I reckon, that because I am white, English etc etc that I am therefore a Christian, even if I don't profess such a claim. Bible on the bookshelf. Bible in the hotel room. Bishops in The Lords. An alien would surmise that most people in this country are Christians. My experience is that many (and by inference, you could say mainstream) practicing Christians think that deep down most indigenous British people are Christians. And that is why two countries, UK and Iran, just those if what I hear is right, have people voting laws by dint of their adherence to holy scripture. Some people are comfortable with that. I'm not, that's all. |
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05 Apr 11 - 12:58 PM (#3129119) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: McGrath of Harlow Seems a reasonable enough assumption, which would probably be made by a Muslim, a Jew or a Buddhist. In the same way it tends to be assumed that someone from Pakistan is some kind of Muslim. Of course it might well in both cases be a false assumption, but it's not a matter of prejudice, it's a matter of statistical expectation. |
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06 Apr 11 - 04:22 AM (#3129648) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: Musket And the statistical expectation is, I assume, what The Humanists were complaining about when they challenged the wording of the census as the last one implied 70% (rounded, can't recall the actual figure) of the population were Christian, whereas that encompassed everything from apathy to starkly non religious. People tended to put Christian meaning common or garden British, it appears. Hence I was challenged recently why I don't go to the local church. My reply was to ask why they don't assume I go to a Mosque, synagogue etc. So your statistical expectation seems to ring true, although if only it didn't.... |
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06 Apr 11 - 05:21 PM (#3130102) Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice From: McGrath of Harlow So how would it differ from the statistical expectation that, being English, you probably don't go to church very often? The guesses we are likely to make about other people, on that kind of basis, is just part of the way we navigate our way through life. I can't see there's any reason for us to get upset about them. |